…and this is a 
Let's all pack up and move to Great Britain!
Category: Godlessness
Posted on: April 20, 2008 6:07 PM, by PZ Myers
The views on religion seem much more congenial.
A charity set up by an ardent Christian to fight slavery and the opium trade has identified a new social evil of the 21st century — religion.
A poll by the Joseph Rowntree Foundation uncovered a widespread belief that faith — not just in its extreme form — was intolerant, irrational and used to justify persecution.
Pollsters asked 3,500 people what they considered to be the worst blights on modern society, updating a list drawn up by Rowntree, a Quaker, 104 years ago.
The responses may well have dismayed him. The researchers found that the "dominant opinion" was that religion was a "social evil".
I think I'd fit right in.
Comments
Hooray for the U.K.! Almost makes me proud to live here. Although I live in Wales. I think we're just slightly behind England, there are still a lot of Sunday chapel-goers in the rural parts.
Posted by: Sam | April 20, 2008 6:11 PM
Yes, but just think about the 40% income taxe (I won't swear to that number, but I know its up there). However, if thats what it takes it might not be a bad idea. But didn't we come over here from England to get away from religious persecution? Talk about irony...
Posted by: Kirk Hull | April 20, 2008 6:13 PM
Fancy the Dawkins chair P.Z.? Beer's good here too.
Posted by: TonyJ | April 20, 2008 6:13 PM
I wouldn't move too soon. We still have an established Church, and 26 seats in the House of Lords are reserved for Church of England bishops.
It's definately better in this regard than the US from what I can tell, though. Highly ironic since our blasphemy laws are only now just being removed.
Posted by: Martin Fox | April 20, 2008 6:16 PM
PZ, you'll be very welcome. Didn't Richard Dawkins email you regarding the chair at Oxford? You'd be a worthy successor, at least in my opinion.
Posted by: Matt | April 20, 2008 6:17 PM
UK's standard rate of Income Tax just went down to 20% a few days ago. The 40% rate comes in for higher earners. The problem as ever and everywhere is squeezing any serious amount of tax out of the disgustingly rich!
Posted by: maureen | April 20, 2008 6:18 PM
Of course, you *could* do what I did and move to Sydney.
You get that taste of British culture (like decent fish'n'chips and all things 'cricket') but the beer is better!
And it is t-shirt weather much of the year, too. (Fancy a surf? Sydney has *heaps* of beaches.)
Posted by: marc buhler | April 20, 2008 6:21 PM
That's the beauty of having a state religion here - nobody takes it very seriously, except as a good source for comedy.
Posted by: bjm | April 20, 2008 6:24 PM
Hooray for us! Restores my faith in my fellow Britons.
I have to give credit to the established church. It's done wonders for secularism, having a state religion.
Kirk shouldn't worry about income tax. It's only 40% on income over £36,000. Below this the basic rate is 20%. Though it may be high for American tastes, thanks to my taxes I pay nothing for health cover and have no fear of being bankrupted by a long illness.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | April 20, 2008 6:25 PM
How long before the first claim that this poll is in fact persecution of Christians? I mean, come on, people expressing an opinion that religion is bad? That's clearly persecution.
Posted by: Ted D | April 20, 2008 6:26 PM
unfortunately the blasphemy laws are being replaced by equally tiresome ones, just not dedicated to the c of e.
the churches are getting more and more strident as well which is a bit of pain since, as martin fox alludes to, in theory they have quite a bit of power.
oh and the faith schools are definitely an annoyance.
Posted by: kevinj | April 20, 2008 6:26 PM
I do not acknowledge the truth of this (he said, pulling out his dogeared CAMRA guide).
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | April 20, 2008 6:27 PM
Thans kevinj for reminding me of our beloved 'faith schools', which claim to get good results through teaching religious values rather than the fact that they can be selective. Honest.
Posted by: Martin Fox | April 20, 2008 6:33 PM
As a movie star in the new "documentary" Expelled I'm sure you're thrilled about this.
"Also opening, creationist propaganda piece, Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed, being pitched as a documentary in a manner similar to Michael Moore's fare, inherited a windy estimated $3.2 million at 1,052 venues. Though meager, it wasn't a total flunkout given the genre and its independent release." http://www.boxofficemojo.com/news/?id=2486&p=.htm
I wonder how much of that money may goto paying legal fees and lawsuits settlements with Harvard, PBS and Yoko.
Posted by: Chris | April 20, 2008 6:34 PM
No doubt they will bleat, cheerfully ignoring the years of dominance by that crypto-papist Blair--a man who came within a whisker of endorsing ID--and our current muscular Christian occupying Number 10.
I'm not complacent about things, though. There is plenty of scope for unctuous god-botherers to throw a spanner in the works. Ulster remains a powder-keg and we have our fair share of Islamic nutters plotting and muttering.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | April 20, 2008 6:35 PM
On the other hand, you might want to give Ireland a miss:
"THE EU is to drop a case aimed at forcing Irish religious schools to employ teachers who don't believe in the religious "ethos" of the school and may even hold anti-religious beliefs."
http://www.independent.ie/national-news/churchrun-schools-can-keep-atheists-off-their-staff-1353365.html
Posted by: NC Paul | April 20, 2008 6:39 PM
But isn't it cold a rainy in the winter? Oh wait a minute, I live in Michigan...
Posted by: Kirk | April 20, 2008 6:52 PM
@ NC Paul
the UKs (leaving aside some variation in the countries) has jsimilar "faith" schools with a very high number being c of e (or equiv) and then a bunch of catholic.
the relevant church gets quite a lot of say in who gets appointed particularly at the senior teacher level.
in theory every school has to have a daily act of christian worship as well (in practice neither my c of e primary or catholic secondary bothered with their religious observance being limited to a couple of services a year) but you get the full range up to and including creationist types.
the number of parents who suddenly start attending church is amazing (they have the advantage that they can covertly, or less covertly, select pupils).
Posted by: kevinj | April 20, 2008 6:55 PM
In the UK you get surveillance cameras on every corner, Phorm-infested Internet access, an absurdly high crime rate, endemic binge drinking, severely decaying public infrastructure, and almost an entire generation of 'yoof' who are little better than thugs.
There are much better places to live.
Posted by: Vagrant | April 20, 2008 7:04 PM
How refreshing. I knew I liked those Britons for a reason!
I find, in my own American life, that people can deal with me being an atheist as long as I never dare criticize religion, because it does so much good for our society. I'd love to see some tangible evidence of this "good"...
Posted by: Hypatia | April 20, 2008 7:11 PM
On the plus side, in Britain one can be a public atheist without so much as a second glance. Richard Dawkins gets his own TV show. Our politicians downplay their faith, as it is an electoral liability (in the metropolitan constituencies at least) to be seen as a holy roller. Our state religion is genuinely a brilliant advert for secularism; who can forget the Bishop of Southwark making such a fool of himself over Python's Life of Brian?
Oh, and the beer is great; don't let some Ocker transplant convince you otherwise. The nation is liberal enough that one of the highest-rated children's shows on TV featured a bisexual action hero and man-on-man kiss that passed with surprisingly little comment in the national press. And the profoundly uncloseted Stephen Fry holds the status of national treasure.
On the downside there are state-financed faith schools that practice pupil selection (something that reinforces their status at the expense of the state schools). Certain parts of Ulster and Scotland are hotbeds of sectarianism. Moslems feel sufficiently alienated that a tiny handful of them were moved to turn terrorist. And Britons are just as susceptible to new-aged horoscope-toting bollocks as the next man. Our National Lottery TV show, in shades of Network, even used to have its own soothsayer.
The lack of critical thinking is evident in the screams of outrage by the Daily Mail at all things liberal and good. It is read by many hundreds of thousands of cnuts each day across the country. (Sorry, but if you are a Daily Mail reader you are an abject, grasping, mean-spirited tosser. Deal with it.) Meanwhile Murdoch's Sun continues to give the yellow press a bad name.
Oh, and don't get me onto the subject of the death of Diana and the wooly-headed national wailfest that ensued. Those were ugly times and I can tell you I was frightened by them.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | April 20, 2008 7:11 PM
I know this is off the topic, but, can I ask a human DNA question?
Posted by: Patricia C. | April 20, 2008 7:12 PM
They don't call it Great for nothing! Come one, come all ye free thinkers ;)
Posted by: Kris | April 20, 2008 7:30 PM
To the denizens of Oz and the UK, there's no denying that you make good beer and ales, but when transported across oceans they lose a great deal by the time they reach here. On the other hand, we who understand the seriousness of real ale in the US now have thousands of microbreweries and brew pubs where we too can get a wide variety of excellent ales.
Since you Brits seem to have outgrown religion, I'm not sure who drinks the ullage and gas produced by the major commercial brewers -- Bass, et al. (or who drinks Fosters in Oz). However, I can assure you that the vast majority of the stale, flat, and unprofitable beers produced by Messers Coors, Miller, and Anheuser-Busch are consumed by Christians (which may explain why they are so gullible about other matters concerning "spirit"). Those who know good ale are not so deceived.
Posted by: chezjake | April 20, 2008 7:32 PM
I know this is off the topic, but, can I ask a human DNA question?
Please do.
Posted by: windy | April 20, 2008 7:50 PM
You are so right about certain American beers, chezjake. I used to actually enjoy Coors "Banquet Beer" until I got my hands on some imported stout. Big (read, good) difference.
It was in reference to Coors that I first heard the one about having sex in a canoe.
Now if only America could emulate Great Britain's attitude toward religion as she has lately begun to address the value of good brew!
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | April 20, 2008 7:51 PM
This is the link to the original report
http://www.socialevils.org.uk/documents/social-evils-report.pdf
Posted by: Quidam | April 20, 2008 7:56 PM
I know this is off the topic, but, can I ask a human DNA question?
Depends. Does your DNA question have anything to do with the 2nd Law of Thermodynamics not allowing an increase in information? Or how all DNA mutations are deleterious mutations? Or how "junk DNA" has some functions, and therefore evolution is wrong?
If so, no, you may not ask a DNA question.
Posted by: HP | April 20, 2008 7:57 PM
I've been hearing a lot about the much-differing religious views in the UK. I'm 21, currently in the USA and working to get some computer/networking certificates. I've been seriously entertaining the idea of moving there soon.
I'm going to read up on things more before I take any steps though. I just know that I don't think there's much hope for common sense and rationality in this country right now. I'd prefer not to be surrounded by the ignorance (my harsh views are partly due to my living in the southeast).
Posted by: Chris | April 20, 2008 8:09 PM
You're all wrong
the best beer comes from the Monteiths brewery in NZ
Though judging australian beer by fosters - which in australian of my acquaintance, including my boorish uncles, has ever admitted drinking, even in an emergency - may seem harsh, by my estimation the other beers aren't much better. The more mass-produced kiwi ales, such as Lion Red and DB, are also deservedly maligned. But the older and stronger breweries, Speights, Tui, and Monteiths, as well as the boutique newcomer Mac's, can hold their own against any brewery in the world. Monteith's New Zealand Lager recently won the award of Best Beer In The World
Beat that.
Posted by: wazza | April 20, 2008 8:12 PM
You'd have to put up with lots of love for homeopathy. And one of the next highest populations of creationists in the Western world. Doesn't seem like THAT much of a bargain.
Posted by: Bad | April 20, 2008 8:12 PM
No, this is an honest DNA question...I was kinda hanging out here to see if it would get discussed because I don't know shit from Shine-ola.
I do genealogy as my hobby, so we got my brothers DNA tested a couple of months ago to track the male line. What returned is a bunch of words and numbers I don't know how to understand. They must have a lot of thick customers, because they also sent a color coded world map of my ancestors. The colors are to denote thousands of years. Ancestor A is in Africa, and his color is dark red/ 60,000 years ago. (That much I expected from high school biology class) My question is this, how can the guys at the lab tell ancestor A was 60,000 years ago? I think the whole thing is cool, but I don't get that part. Thanks! (Oh, I do know gawd had nothing to do with it.)
Posted by: Patricia C. | April 20, 2008 8:16 PM
The British have always tended to take a pragmatic view of religion. That's why we managed to quietly export most of our religious hotheads to the colonies and then arranged to lose the War of Independence which meant that they stayed there.
As for the taxes, they help pay for the National Health Service which, for all its shortcomings, does provide good, basic medical care to everyone. There is no significant part of the population without access to any healthcare and no one goes bankrupt because they are unable to pay their medical bills.
The beer's better, too.
Posted by: Ian H Spedding FCD | April 20, 2008 8:18 PM
Wazza (we had a novel plot conversation elsewhere, I think): Timothy Taylor's Landlord bitter from Yorkshire (England) is, all authorities agree, the best beer in the world. I agree Genesis got to that novel plot first, let's not fall out over beer. I'm right.
Back on topic: Britain is teaching humanism in state schools. SUnday Times article: http://tinyurl.com/3pdd55
Posted by: Peter Mc | April 20, 2008 8:30 PM
oh, just you wait - all this charismatic speaking-in-tongues American-style new fangled evolution-denying Christ-blood-washing Christianity is brewing up a whole new generation of young student-generation fundies here in the UK. just you wait a few years indeed.
it's horrifying.
Posted by: alex | April 20, 2008 8:31 PM
Sorry, Patricia -- I was getting a bit tired of hearing the same canards all the time.
I am not a scientist either, but this is cool stuff. It has to do with alleles, which is a kind of identifiable variant on a gene. You can track populations as they migrated out of Africa by the presence or absence of certain alleles.
The National Geographic Genographic Project has all kinds of cool stuff about this for nonscientists like us.
Posted by: HP | April 20, 2008 8:37 PM
The most recent common ancestor in the male line of all people on earth ("Y-chromosome Adam") lived something like 60,000 years ago. So sounds like that's the A on your chart?
Start with some group of people, they could be all men on Earth, or a smaller group. In this case, you are looking at the most recent ancestor in the male line of all those people, so A is defined as wherever all those male lineages meet. Researchers compare genetic markers in a bunch of descendants of A, and see how many mutations they have accumulated. Then they get an estimate of the mutation rate (how often mutations happen in the markers you are looking at; for example, by looking at genetic information from living families), and from this they can estimate how long ago the ancestor lived.
Posted by: windy | April 20, 2008 8:54 PM
I live in Newcastle (of the brown ale) UK. In my day to day life I encounter not one single overtly religious person. Every single one of my circle of friends is non-religious (and I know a lot of people). I only ever encounter religion on the internet or while randomly surfing TV channels on a Sunday. Religions is dead or dying here (though I can't speak for the whole of the UK).
This is why I can only laugh when I hear believers fretting about an atheistic society, I live in one. We're not all routinely baking kittens or mugging old ladies, it's actually pretty damn nice over here.
Posted by: uberd00b | April 20, 2008 8:58 PM
Thankyou! I honestly did spend 50 years being a dipshit... That word allele is on the Y-DNA certificate with a bunch of numbers. I'll go look at your links, but I may not understand them. Looks like I wrongly 'assumed' that biology profs spent all their time discussing these kind of topics. Who knew you had to spend SO much time dicing the livers of dorks...Thanks.
Posted by: Patricia C. | April 20, 2008 9:01 PM
Posted by: Steve LaBonne | April 20, 2008 9:11 PM
"I think I'd fit right in."
Yep, a country full of douchebags and you fit perfectly right in line with them.
So, what are you waiting for? LEAVE
Posted by: Planet Killer | April 20, 2008 9:50 PM
The certificate should probably tell you what haplogroup your relatives belong to. Once you find that there's a lot of information online (some of it less reliable, though)
Posted by: windy | April 20, 2008 9:52 PM
You all have it wrong the best beer is the one in my fridge, becuase is it in MY fridge so that I may drink it when I wish. All the beers you mention I can not drink so they are mearly teasing me and thus suck, the Beer Store is also closed right now so they really suck.
In Canada with the expection of the occasional raving nutter it seems to be taken as poor manners to mention religion at all, unless you know the person quite well or there is very direct context suck as being Muslim and preffering the hallal resteraunt.
For myself for most of my adult life I have wondered about the power of words and their implications and on this matter I have always found a lack.... agnostic means you don't know if there is a god with implications that you actually spend time worring about it, athiest means you don't believe in god with implications that you spend time railing agaisnt those that do. I think a fair number of the educated masses are more Apathists then anything else they just don't care if there is a god.
Posted by: Lynnai | April 20, 2008 9:55 PM
So, what are you waiting for? LEAVE
I'll tell you what, moron, if you want this country all to yourself, you can bribe me for one to leave you the fuck alone.
I won't tell you where I'm going, but I can guarantee you it will be a different continent, as I wanna be as far away from you demented fuckwits as possible.
so, if you would like to contribute to my speedier emigration, you can just email me the password to any Pay-Pal account you manage to set up.
c'mon, moron, put your money where your blithering cake-hole is!
Posted by: Ichthyic | April 20, 2008 9:56 PM
Hey, Planet Killer's turned up. Time to pppppaaaaaarrrrrttttyyyyy!!!!!
I'm going first. Planet Killer, you are a total wanker.
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | April 20, 2008 9:56 PM
Bugger, Ichthyic beat me.
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | April 20, 2008 9:57 PM
The beer's better, too.
that's a given, pretty much anywhere outside of the continental US.
excluding homebrew/microbrew
Posted by: Ichthyic | April 20, 2008 9:58 PM
Bugger, Ichthyic beat me.
She's lying! I've never, ever beat a woman, not even my wife!
:p
Posted by: Ichthyic | April 20, 2008 9:59 PM
I don't drink beer because it makes me fart ( what can I say- I never described myslf as a lady). However, I'm more than a little partial to a Marlborough Bay Sauv Blanc from NZ. There you go Wazza, I've let slip another nice comment about New Zealand. Next thing you'll be thinking I reallly, really love the place, and I've been there eight times, and Mr Shrek ,myself and the Shreklettes are thinking abut moving over.
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | April 20, 2008 10:02 PM
That's true, I have honestly never been slapped by a fish.
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | April 20, 2008 10:04 PM
Hey, an idiot on my blog telling me to leave! I can't resist. Bye-bye, Planet Killer! You get to leave now.
Posted by: PZ Myers | April 20, 2008 10:06 PM
myself and the Shreklettes are thinking abut moving over.
well now that PK is gone, and my extra source of funding is gone [/sarcasm], I can say that is where I'm heading in a few months too.
I'd love to hear about what you saw when you were down there.
shoot me an email if you get the chance:
fisheyephotosAThotmailDOTcom
@PZ:
Hey, an idiot on my blog telling me to leave!
go figure, Joe Blow did the same thing to you yesterday, in an even more absurd fashion!
what's with these morons?
Posted by: Ichthyic | April 20, 2008 10:10 PM
And this is different from the USA how? We have no habeas corpus, warrantless wiretaps, high crime rate, ridiculous pollution from cars that are larger than my house, public infrastructure that no one cares about, people dying every day of easily treated diseases because of a crap health care system, and a generation of youth who really are no better than thugs (I teach them).
Sadly, this may not be one of them. :(
Posted by: Eric | April 20, 2008 10:31 PM
Ichthyic
I'll jot you a note about the virtues of NZ in a bit to your hotmail address. So you don't junk me accidentally keep an eye for an email from David & Victoria.
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | April 20, 2008 10:35 PM
Planet Killer's gone? Effective immediately, we won't have Planet Killer to kick around anymore. Nevermind. I do have to check its' dungeon entry. It'll probably morph back a few times.
North Dakota has its' very own Rough rider beer, but modisty forbids...
Posted by: mothra | April 20, 2008 10:53 PM
For a lighter take on fundamentalists....
http://www.collegehumor.com/video:1750360
Posted by: RobertC | April 20, 2008 10:54 PM
Not a new evil per se - just the overlapping set of the two evils originally named in the Rowntree mission statement.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | April 20, 2008 11:38 PM
"a country full of douchbags" he says. Gosh, it's kind of a shock to find Planet Killer not knowing what the fuck he's talking about, huh?
Posted by: craig | April 21, 2008 12:00 AM
Will all the drinkers present kindly raise their mugs to Patricia C and her brief words here?
She found the right blog for a scientific field unknown to her, politely spoke up and asked a sincere if utterly off-topic question, picked up quickly on which answer pertained to the data in her hand, dissed the babble-pushers with impressive succinctness, and continued her quest.
As passing encounters on the Internet go, Patricia C's visit to Pharyngula is positively exemplary, and should not go unappreciated.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | April 21, 2008 12:19 AM
I'd have to agree with you Stephen...but Chimay is not an ale to drink to quench ones thirst or have a social evening at the pub...unless you wish to get totally shit faced and spend a lot of money!
Martin
Posted by: Martin Hutton | April 21, 2008 12:40 AM
Eh, Rowntree *might* not have minded. Quakers were basically a bunch of pacifistic humanists who happened to generally be deists and/or Christians, right? At least, that's what today's Quakers are -- there's no rule that you accept Jeebus as your personal ego-inflater or whatever, just that you be pro-human and anti-violence and whatnot.
Posted by: Rachel I. | April 21, 2008 12:59 AM
I made the USA-UK move in 2003 and have been lovin it! People here even joke about the Anglican church being an atheist establishment. Although judging from the students I teach, creationism/evolution-skepticism is slightly on the rise; yet still only 1-2% based on my yearly surveys.
Posted by: John | April 21, 2008 1:24 AM
Indeed. FSM willing, she's still "listening," and will take this as an invitation to stick around.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | April 21, 2008 1:35 AM
I third that, stick around Patricia C. I started here about a year or so ago and the things I've learnt since then have really opened my eyes. I was never a religious person and was brought up non-practising Catholic but since being here I've "converted" fully to atheism not just the ambivalence I had before. I used to be a scientist and am now a lawyer ( yes, thankyou, I went to the dark side of the force) but still maintain an active interest in science and reasoned thinking. Given I hang around lawyers most days this blog is my main contact with intelligent people and I think I'd wilt without it. I promise you'll learn lots and be fascinated by the breadth of knowledge that exists here.
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | April 21, 2008 1:47 AM
Patricia C,
Oh, and remember, there's no such thing as a "dumb" question. If you ask something honestly because you're trying to understand an area a bit better or just don't know the underlying concepts then ask away, even if you think its really basic stuff, there will be someone here in that field with the patience and desire to want to help you learn.
I'm going now, I'm bringing a tear to my own eye with my mother hen routine.
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | April 21, 2008 1:53 AM
Ah, have you ever seen such a perfect display of Christian charity? Truly, Planet Killer is one of the elect.
I always enjoy the 'love it or leave it' types. They'd never dream of taking their own advice when policy and social trends are agin' them.
Goodbye, Planet Killer! Farewell, mean spirit! In the brief time I've been around here you have proven yourself one of the most obtuse, mean-minded of people. We have seen you cheerlead for the forces of ignorance, bigotry and theocracy. You are evil, but in that banal way that leads men to villainy while protesting their righteousness. You don't have the wit to realize how wicked you are.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | April 21, 2008 2:13 AM
Anti-slavery to anti-religion sounds like the logical extension to me. To be fair, though, Leviticus is one of the more batshit insane books in the bible. Whoever wrote that one seriously loved stonings.
Posted by: Master Mahan | April 21, 2008 2:14 AM
I'm sure that's always been true. The 16th and 17th Centuries were times of turmoil in religion. Passions were unleashed in a manner that was anything but pragmatic.
However, certainly by the 19th Century the urban lower classes had largely abandoned religion. The East End of London (where I am from) was, in Dickensian times, so dark and godless that missionaries were sent into it. A working man might respect the existence of religion but would feel that it was not for men of his sort.
I recommend God's Funeral, A.N. Wilson's history of Victorian and Edwardian atheism, for more information on this.
More a case of accident than design. Oliver Cromwell would have become an American if Parliament had not withstood the King. Many Godly came back from the colonies to fight popery and malignancy in the wars of the three kingdoms. (The King, though not a papist, was married to one, and could never shake off the allegation that he was alienated from the True Religion of the sectaries.)
When the Republic collapsed and the crown restored many Godly left for America. They went because they were afraid of retribution from the Royalists, because they dreamed of building the New Jerusalem across the ocean, or simply because they were disgusted by the re-emergence of episcopalianism and could no longer oppress the papists.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | April 21, 2008 2:30 AM
kevinj said (#11): "unfortunately the blasphemy laws are being replaced by equally tiresome ones, just not dedicated to the c of e."
That might have happened, but didn't. As a result of a rebellion in Parliament, led by popular demand, the following section got added to the Racial and Religious Hatred Act 2006:
29J - Protection of freedom of expression:
"Nothing in this Part shall be read or given effect in a way which prohibits or restricts discussion, criticism or expressions of antipathy, dislike, ridicule, insult or abuse of particular religions or the beliefs or practices of their adherents, or of any other belief system or the beliefs or practices of its adherents, or proselytising or urging adherents of a different religion or belief system to cease practising their religion or belief system".
(The government had wanted to secure the Muslim vote by inhibiting speech that offended. They lost by one vote. The rest of the Act attempts to prohibit incitement of violence and hatred. I don't find it worrying).
Posted by: Barry Pearson | April 21, 2008 2:52 AM
Vagrant,
AFAIK Phorm has only been live for a test on BT. There are strong arguments that it's illegal under multiple laws, and I expect it to die. And good riddance.
Posted by: amk | April 21, 2008 3:06 AM
Phorm technical overview in case anyone is interested. Lots of stories on The Register too.
Posted by: amk | April 21, 2008 3:09 AM
I am moving out to Great Britain. I moving from Italy though, which share many similarities with USA.
Italy is practically controlled by the Pope while USA is from Bush Junior. Both are man of god, albeit a very bastard one, that approves child abuse, torture, prefers cellular life (potentially human)against living humans etc
Isn't it ironic that their actions are so different from their so called messiah
Posted by: baley | April 21, 2008 3:14 AM
Let's not forget:
We (UK) have Darwin on our 10-pound note!
(And our notes don't mention God).
Posted by: Barry Pearson | April 21, 2008 3:15 AM
To Peter Mc #34
Every time I hear 'TT Landlord' mentioned, I imagine I can hear celestial music, the clowds parting and a sunbeam radiating a pint of the gorgeous stuff lovingly placed on a pedestal.
To those unfortunates who haven't had the pleasure: you can't rate beer if you haven't tasted the very best.
Posted by: Tom | April 21, 2008 3:29 AM
I also like how tolerance by the blogger and many people on here is for everything but religion. Yeah, you guys got me! You are so much better at tolerance than anyone else.
We don't need another Hitler in this world. We really don't.
Posted by: PK | April 21, 2008 3:32 AM
I also like how tolerance by the blogger and many people on here is for everything but religion.
gee, PK, you think you would have at least managed to do better than morph your original handle into just the initials.
hell, I often called you PK anyway.
There's another person we really don't need another of 'round these parts, and I think it was made abundantly clear who that was...
Posted by: Ichthyic | April 21, 2008 3:56 AM
Correct, we are. You miss the point. We tolerate religion, because that is the correct and moral thing to do. None of us are firebombing churches or burning books or (contrary to the lies of Expelled) putting the godly out of work.
HOWEVER, though we tolerate religion, we do not respect it. You mistake disrespect for intolerance. It is a common error. The difference is as distinct as that between words and actions.
If we were truly intolerant we would be doing all the things that Christians have done and continue to do to unbelievers and heretics.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | April 21, 2008 3:58 AM
I'll jot you a note about the virtues of NZ in a bit to your hotmail address. So you don't junk me accidentally keep an eye for an email from David & Victoria.
will do!
cheers
Posted by: Ichthyic | April 21, 2008 3:59 AM
Lee Brimmingham Wood I am glad to see I am not the only person who thinks the inestimable Mr Fry is a National Treasure. I suggest we clone him and subject the clones to an identical formative period. We could call it The Boys From Norfolk.
Might have to put my campaign for the ending of taxpayer funded perks for public schools on hold for a while but. Got to give the little blighters somewhere to be expelled from and teach at.
Posted by: Peter Ashby | April 21, 2008 4:16 AM
Great, I've got this mental image of PZ singing "let's all move to Great Britain" to the tune of "let's all go to the lobby" stuck in my head now. :)
Posted by: Muffin | April 21, 2008 4:17 AM
#34 & #74 NYAAAH! - my local "The Nag's Head", Walthamstow, London, E17 9LP (That postcode will tell you how to find it!) Sells one of the best two pints of TT Landlord in London!
More seriously, there is are MANY GOOD REASONS for us Brits to distrust religion.
Her we go:
1] Tony B. Liar - our ex-prime minister was heavily into "God" - and an obvious liar.
2] Geo W. Shrub.
3] We have got small numbers of resident muslim extremists. ( 7/7 & all that )
4] We have got small, vociferous numbers of usually US-funded evangelical loonies - who are thoroughly despised, if not hated.
5] The antics of the Catholic church, especially in Ireland are well-known and despised.
6] There is still a strong anti-catholic tradition here, if only unconsious, and historical. It's not just the 1605 plot, but try Googling for "Huguenot" or "Revocation of Edict of Nantes" or "Edict of Fontainbleu" fro explanations - incidentally I'm a Huguenot.
7] etc .......
Posted by: G. Tingey | April 21, 2008 4:20 AM
Whoops. sorry Lee, relied on memory for your surname.
Wazza, since when are Mac's newcomers? they were new back in the '80s, I remember them being new, and a breath of fresh air. Even if as a poor student I could rarely afford to drink them. It is a bit of a stretch for a good Southern Man, but variety is the spice of life. My biggest regret on when we left? I have yet to try Old Dark.
And Patricia I second that there is no such thing as a dumb question if you truly don't know the answer. It is dumb to need to know and not to ask. Beware of the more recent and especially specific claims about geography from these testing companies, the science from these things is a bit shaky suffers from small sample size bias and unproven assumptions about population movements. Having said that, a Y-chromosome can be tied to a surname, or group thereof. Not much use in my case, my family tree shows we changed from Ashby to Underwood and back again with regularity. Not much choice in small villages in the Midlands it seems.
Posted by: Peter Ashby | April 21, 2008 4:32 AM
HERE:
http://fancyapint.com/pubs/pub1978.html
Is a link showing you the pub ...
less than 4 minutes walk from my front door.
The old pub-pcat died, but the new one, a small tabby, will sit on you lap, if you talk to her nicely .....
AND THIS (hopefully) will show you my house right on extreme left-hand edge of picture (Woodbury Road) and the pub is under the inset-map at bottom right.
Note all the trees and greenery - and this is well inside London ....
Posted by: G. Tingey | April 21, 2008 4:36 AM
BUGGER!
Trying again:
http://www.multimap.com/maps/?hloc=GB|e17#map=51.58476,-0.01261|19|256&loc=GB:51.58686:-0.02045:16|e17|E17
Pub is NOW visible, & I live just off-screen!
Posted by: G. Tingey | April 21, 2008 4:43 AM
I never used to drink in Walthamstow. I was brought up in Leytonstone though I did most of my drinking in the City.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | April 21, 2008 4:46 AM
'We don't need another Hitler in this world. We really don't.'
This 'Hitler was an atheist' meme is really doing the rounds, isn't it? The Pope said over the weekend that Nazism "banished God and thus became impervious to anything true and good".
Here's a picture of Hitler being mean to some Catholics:
http://history1900s.about.com/library/holocaust/blhitler19.htm
Here's him banishing God:
http://www.alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/19hitlerwithmuller.jpg
What I think's very interesting is that Christians - ones who are clearly not in cahoots: half the fundies think Ratzinger is the anti-Christ, and I don't think he popped over to see Expelled - have switched tack from 'we should downplay Hitler's Christianity and he's not exactly typical' to 'he was an atheist, the Nazis were all atheists'. Or, in other words, from a perfectly understandable bit of brave-faced spin to a barefaced flat out lie. They obviously think it'll have traction.
The thing is ... it doesn't work, now. If you want to assess Hitler's religious beliefs, it's easily to see the evidence. If Christians want to pick a fight over this one, let's bring it all out into the open. Yes, privately, it's reported that Hitler was sceptical about religion. Yes, Nazism was a weird mix of all sorts of myths and fertility cults and social Darwinism was in there (along with Catholicism). Perhaps the Pope means they banished 'traditional' religion (the line before that in the speech suggests that) ... but the one thing Nazism certainly wasn't was atheist. And the church was utterly complicit, the few that spoke out had to leave the church to do so, and the vast majority of Nazis were Christians and saw no contradiction. The whole of Germany was swept along by it, and what it offered was (false) hope and certainty. Which is religion's game, not atheism's.
Churchgoers will always be more prone than atheists to the Nazi mindset of conformity, social engineering, revisionist history and science, destruction of rival viewpoints and doing evil on the name of good and obeying authority. If for no other reason than showing up at the church in the first place is a step in that direction.
The 'neo atheist' (or, as we Brits call it, 'British') attitude to religion has really started to shift things around.
It's interesting how the Christian response has been to paint us in their light. You have people saying 'atheistic evolution is dogmatic, too certain of itself, based on little evidence, repeats the same tired old points, it's illogical ... it's a religion!'. Which is quite funny - like that old joke