Pharyngula

Here we go again. The freaking male again!

Posted by: Holbach | April 13, 2008 6:29 PM

I'm not sure if it's right to blame 'religion' here. To the extent it's possible to separate culture from religion, I'd rather blame culture. It is arabic culture to have arranged marriages, and it is arabic culture to have age gaps between male and female. This seems to be a really mature 8 year old. Good luck to her!

Also, with the Mormons, please separate the FLDS church from LDS. They are very different denominations and have no connections whatsoever.

Posted by: Gustaf | April 13, 2008 6:38 PM

While I'm no fan of Islamic culture, or any culture rooted in mythology, I don't know what more you could ask of the authorities. They removed her from the home, arrested the rapist, essentially annulled the marriage, and plan on placing her somewhere safe to grow up.

Posted by: Enkidu | April 13, 2008 6:44 PM

"She is my wife and no one can stop me".

What a tool.

Posted by: Russell Miller | April 13, 2008 6:52 PM

What does this have to do with religion? The article makes it perfectly clear that this is illegal in Yemen, and Yemeni law is based on Islamic law.

Her husband is in jail, her father appears to have mental problems, and she's currently in the custody of social services.

Posted by: EJ | April 13, 2008 6:59 PM

A lot of terrible things are done and even sanctioned by governments in the name of Islam, but they got it right this time. Before I read the article I was expecting one of those stories where the judge cites Islamic law and says basically that the girl is SOL and should get busy in the sack. Perhaps you should not have construed it as such...

Posted by: jjberg | April 13, 2008 7:06 PM

Keep apologizing for them guys.

If they are following islamic law she will be eligible to get married before this goes to trial.

Posted by: Steve8282 | April 13, 2008 7:07 PM

Wow, this is unbelievable. What an incredibly mature child - although I guess you'd grow up fast in that environment.

Fuck humanity, indeed.

Posted by: LisaJ | April 13, 2008 7:16 PM

"Not just the Mormons, of course".

It would be a strange world if it was! When will you get it? It doesn't matter what religion is involved, if any. It's about power. It always has been.

Whether you wrap that up in your local belief system and justify it as a religious right is completely irrelevant to the argument.

Well done to law enforcement in Yemen and Texas for recognising this. From the outside both appear to be scary, fundamentalist societies but this can give us hope.

Posted by: Kitty | April 13, 2008 7:22 PM

There are not words to express this. At the same time I am outraged, heart-broken and numb...

Posted by: Chris | April 13, 2008 7:24 PM

Common error to blame a religion for the sins of the culture in which it is found. Like blaming atheism for the soviet purges. To evaluate a religion, you have to compare it not to some ideal, but to its cultural context. And as bad as Islam is in some ways, it's much better than the native Arab pagan culture.

Posted by: ungtss | April 13, 2008 7:28 PM

This isn't just happening in the Middle East. Child marriages are common across Africa and Asia as well. It has more to do with culture than religion but the old ways are starting to change.

Posted by: Romeo VItelli | April 13, 2008 7:39 PM

Obsessively linking every bad thing that happens to religion is rather like what Victorian doctors used to do when they blamed every human ill on self abuse. Since almost all human beings have some sort of religion, virtually everything people do can be associated with religion. At the very least, one should acknowledge that the vast majority of Muslims wouldn't approve of what happened to this eight-year old, anymore than the vast majority of American Christians or even American Mormons approve of polygamy in Texas.

Posted by: Jim Harrison | April 13, 2008 7:48 PM

I agree with the many above who point out that this is (like the FLDS) not a failing of the religion, or the surrounding culture, so much as the perversion of both.
I can't hang these abuses on a belief system or a culture, but on dangerously sick people - or are they ALWAYS men? - who have only an interest in justifying their crimes with whatever is at hand.

That said, I can blame religions for their sanctioning, often consciously, far more numerous and destructive crimes. The believers who express horror at these sorts of stories (the FLDS story is hugely under-reported in the mass media, since it reflects badly on mormons and white males, while an accusation of satanism would be granted blanket coverage, regardless of the actual evidence) have no difficulty excusing, or ignoring, murders, discrimination, exploitation, child-abuse, embezzlement, etc., etc., etc. when it's one of their own.

Posted by: Sioux Laris | April 13, 2008 7:55 PM

In related news, Stalin was an atheist.

(I'm an atheist myself; I just think this is a fun game).

Posted by: EJ | April 13, 2008 7:56 PM

I would castrate both her husband AND her father for free....without anesthesia.... disgusting perverts!

Posted by: Tracy | April 13, 2008 8:06 PM

Where is Lorena Bobbitt? We need her now more than ever.
This makes me so angry, In just can't even see straight.

Posted by: Pandora | April 13, 2008 8:10 PM

Ah, yes...the wonderful, serene, peace-loving religion of Islam. And to think there are those in America (executive members of CAIR, for instance), who would like to see the country under Islamic law. Not that you'll ever see or hear this in the lame scream media, of course.

Posted by: Joe Blow | April 13, 2008 8:18 PM

To all of the religious apologists: you don't get it. Yeah, an overwhelming number of Muslims might deplore such behaviour and action, but they have to be doing it from a secular sense of right and wrong, because their religion condones such behavior. Mohammed can do no wrong, and Mohammed had a child bride, ergo having a child bride is not wrong. This is how the religion can be interpreted, period. How does the old saying go, "Without religion, you will have evil men doing evil deeds and good men doing good deeds, but for a good man to do evil deeds it takes religion." That's because religions do not move with the times, and will continue to sanction immoral and deplorable acts long after a culture has embraced a more civilized nature.

Posted by: David | April 13, 2008 8:23 PM

Absolutely disgusting. She's just eight for crying out loud. Eight!! This is not about religion, this is about a sick father who sold his baby daughter and a man who as sure as hell deserves death saying thats his wife. I swear if I se such a person (or this person hopefully) I will make him squeal for death. Yemen is a sick country if they allow this crime to go unanswered.. Sick sick country. and even more sick people. The father needs to go to prison and be violated 24/7..even that will not compare to the hurt he has done his daughter. I am disgusted!!

Posted by: Zack | April 13, 2008 8:58 PM

Uh.

Another search finds that there are many hits on an "Al-Rahama Relief Foundation". Guess what most of those hits are for?

Oy.

But that was/is not in Yemen either

Posted by: Owlmirror | April 13, 2008 9:21 PM

I bet the last line torqued a few jaws. One likes to think these are extreme cases, but they probably aren't that extreme. Paradoxically, women are undoubtedly the most oppressed "minority"; and yet, they're 50% of the human race. UN reports always tell us of the bulk of women, esp. in the 3rd world, enduring "traditional" misery because of their sex. Forced marriages, forced prostitution, buying and selling, protecting and bartering, are almost always of daughters, never sons. Although the father here was mentally ill, and almost as much in need of help as his daughter...

Posted by: PeteK | April 13, 2008 9:24 PM

Well, the "Al-Rahma'a Orphanage" is in Yemen, and the name appears to be close to Al-Rahama. But this is not an encouraging report of the place...

http://www.yobserver.com/sports-health-and-lifestyle/10011925.html

Posted by: Owlmirror | April 13, 2008 9:29 PM

I think this is probably the place:

Dar Al-Rahma, translated as Mercy House, Orphanage was established in 2001 for female orphans. It is the first project to gather female orphans under one roof, regardless of the negative comments by social and cultural critics.

The orphanage aims to raise girls and prepare them for life within Yemeni society. Initially, the orphanage's manager was criticized for allegedly attempting to break Yemeni culture and solidarity by raising orphaned girls away from the influence of their relatives, as many citizens believe it's shameful and wrong to do so.

Dar Al-Rahma director Rougah Al-Hajeri wonders how such people can bear the sight of girls begging or sleeping on the rough streets or, in some cases, forced into criminal activities, all in the name of protecting Yemeni culture and solidarity. "Yet, when we think to build a house for these homeless girls and protect them from the dangers of living on the streets, people criticize us."

Posted by: Owlmirror | April 13, 2008 9:38 PM

As a victim of a violent crime at a very young age, I deeply admire how brave she was to stand up to her abuser. That takes tremendous effort and a very strong ego.

What we're ultimately seeing here is a gaping hole where stronger children's rights laws should be. It's important to understand that this could even happen in the United States, not just Yemen. It doesn't have to do with religion because Muslims are hardly the only ones guilty of abusing their children. It is good to know that even the Yemeni government frowns on this and that this little girl can be somewhere to recover.

Posted by: Rachel | April 13, 2008 9:53 PM

How completely despicable... Her "husband" justified her rape as his "right".

Religion is an insult to human dignity. With or without it, you'd have good people doing good things and evil people doing bad things, but for good people to do bad things, it takes religion. ~ Steven Weinberg, Nobel Laureate in physics

Posted by: raatrani | April 13, 2008 10:06 PM

@ OwlMirror, Close is not good enough to assert they're one and the same. Arabic is full of words that are close-sounding and share the same root, but are completely different. Transliteration makes it harder to determine. It is still possibly the same place though, the country doesn't have that much money for services.

I was born in Sana'a while my parents were there during my father's time working with a Kuwaiti company helping to build a hospital there. It's a poor country, and this girl is lucky to have been in an area under government control when a good part of the country is still under the control of various autonomous tribes.

People like to blame Islamic law for a lot of things but I have news for you, Islamic law is the only way the Middle East will ever attain rule of law at all. English common law which forms the basis for our legal system in the US allowed people to be burned at the stake and mandated execution for theft above the value of a few shillings. The legacy of Napoleonic code is responsible for leniency for honor killings in Jordan and Egypt.

@Quidam, Aisha is a peculiar case. Fundamentally the vast majority of Sunnis in Yemen follow the Shafi'i school of Islam, which would mean that they would not accept marriage with a nine-year old as being normal in any way, and the Shias in Yemen are mostly Zaidi's making them moderate and equally unlikely to condone the behavior. Having lived in the Middle East for years as an Arab, no one I ever met (including fundamentalists and kooks) has thought it was acceptable to marry an underage girl.

I love how people so very obviously unfamiliar with the culture and religion are quick to blame one or the other for the actions of a few individuals. Remember this is in the newspaper because this is news to Yemenis.

Posted by: Angrynight | April 13, 2008 10:16 PM

Is it time to start a pedophilia blogroll?

Posted by: Ben Abbott | April 13, 2008 10:23 PM

@Angrynight
While I can't readily agree that accepting Islamic Law is a good thing, thank you for contributing that bit of information. It certainly helps to explain the reality of life in that region, and I can now at least accept it as a less evil alternative. If rule of law, in whatever form, protects this girl and others like her, I can do nothing other than offer my support.

Posted by: raatrani | April 13, 2008 10:34 PM

The LDS may have publicly repudiated polygyny, but they haven't stepped too far away from it.

I was recently told by the husband of a practising Mormon that it is generally believed in the church that good Mormon men will have multiple wives once they reach Heaven.

Posted by: JohnnieCanuck, FCD | April 13, 2008 11:17 PM

@Duncan, I was going to say, "read the WHOLE wikipedia article" but I checked first and it has apparently changed considerably since I last saw it. A version of a page on the matter a year or so ago discussed this issue in much greater detail but I can't find that info anymore.

Note that I said the Aisha issue is peculiar because a lot of information about the Islamic religion and Muhammad is related through her (see "hadith" and "sanad") and it is her own account that tells us when the marriage was consummated (age nine). Muslim scholars accept this as true, unless they are certain sects of Shiaa. The Islamic religion determines eligiblity for consummation based not on age, but on gestation (i.e. passage of puberty and physical maturity) and Muslim ulama (scholars) attribute the young age of her marriage as having been a rare case of very early puberty. Believe it if you want, or don't, there is no evidence for either. However it is significant that this issue has been addressed and opinions on it have been disseminated, and it also answers why the action by Muhammad was not condemned. This is not a novel issue for Muslims.

The other side of this is that Muhammad did not regularly marry prepubescent girls, his first wife was twenty years his senior. Most pedophiles are repeat offenders that start at a young age and a man in Muhammad's position of legal and supreme authority had the power to be as much of a pedophile as he wanted. This lends some credibility to the early maturity theory. Regardless the point is that the issue has been mitigated sufficiently that Muslims do not generally hesitate to condemn pedophilia.

@raatrani

I understand where you are coming from. I myself am opposed to religious law, especially in the US where I live. However here in the US we already have the cultural and historical background for secularism, something that the Middle East has not yet developed naturally and which cannot be effectively imposed from outside.

Meanwhile a religiously oriented political party in Egypt called Kifaya is the only real hope of establishing consistent government accountability in that country, as opposed to Hosni Mubarak's despotic rule.

Posted by: angrynight | April 13, 2008 11:53 PM

Also, with the Mormons, please separate the FLDS church from LDS. They are very different denominations and have no connections whatsoever.

why? does one sect NOT have magic underpants?

fucking ridiculous.

a rose by any other name...

Posted by: Ichthyic | April 14, 2008 12:03 AM

It is not about religion - it is about MEN - they do this because they can and use religion - ANY religion to conveniently justify it - READ THE HEADLINES - teacher accused of molestation/rape, coach accused of molestation/rape, priest accused of molestation/rape. pastor accused of molestation/rape, doctor accused of molestation/rape, neighbor accused of molestation/rape, father, step father, uncle, grandfather, son, cousin of children, murder of children, sex trade targeting children, babies as young as 3 months old raped to death in aids ridden Africa - what is the bottom line? Who are the perpetrators that are molesting/raping/killing children/girls/boys/women? it is men - MEN! MEN ARE THE BOTTOM LINE - GET IT - IT IS MEN!!!!!!!! SO fucking - LOOK TO YOURSELVES and the perception of male privilege that infects the world - HEAL YOURSELVES -quit making excuses for your miserable gender - YOU, MEN are the problem and it is up to YOU TO FIX IT!

Posted by: gwyllion | April 14, 2008 12:26 AM

p.s.
oh yeah -i expect to get the whole obligatory - wow gwyllion you sure have an issue/anger/rage/problem with men feedback - all i have to say back is - yup - try living as a woman/child in this world of male privilege, where a simple walk down the street at night can turn into a life or death incident - or try to think what a world might be like where a simple backpacking trip alone is an impossibility w/o firearms to make a woodland confrontation an equal playing field. My post make you hostile? uncomfortable? defensive?
The truth hurts doesn't it? i say again - HEAL YOURSELVES!!!!!!! or at least rape/molest/murder/fuck somebody your own size for a change! Assholes!

Posted by: gwyllion | April 14, 2008 12:35 AM

Gwyllion, if your characterization of "The Male" were accurate, what point would there be in demanding that men fix themselves? They would never, ever do it.

The stereotype of feminists in particular as irrational, frothing, borderline-delusional misandrists with a nine year old's understanding of psychological and sociological complexities is vicious, demeaning, and destructive. Please stop feeding it.

(Seriously, there are enough problems with misogyny, discrimination, covert sexism, and violence without turning yourself into an anecdote that some misogynist can use to support his [or in some cases, sadly, her] contention that women are incapable of rational thought.)

Posted by: Azkyroth | April 14, 2008 12:48 AM

I've only spent 40 years among the Mormons, so some of you are obviously more expert than I am about this.

There is occasionally some talk about polygyny in the next life, although generally accompanied by much protestation on all sides about not understanding how it works, yet, and that it would be nearly impossible without direct intervention by God.

In 40 years (across the US and in Europe, too) I've only heard hints of anybody wanting or thinking that polygyny MIGHT return to human society...twice, I think, and both in Finland from delusional men who were obviously head cases and were kept around more out of charity than out of their doctrinal wisdom.

And there may have been once or twice otherwise when discussions in men's meetings might seem to be leading the direction where somebody might want to say that it would be a pleasant idea. However, I found that even a slight mention of polyandry was enough to call a screeching halt for those idiots' dreams.

Joseph Smith had some conflicting impressions about marriage, anyway, since the Book of Mormon contains a passage condemning polygyny very strongly, although it does leave in a chance that God can specifically command it for a specific period of time. That same passage, however, condemns David's and Solomon's lives.

In this story, an 8-year-old girl is obviously horrible. However, it's harder for me to judge about the 9-year-old 1500 years ago, since I'm not very familiar with Arab culture then. I'm not extremely familiar with particular parts of brain maturity, although I know that major structures are still forming and organizing in the brain from 16-25 years old. Which, again, is not to excuse either Mohammed or the current idiot, just to note that morally and scientifically, a 9-year-old can be nearly as socially mature as an 18-year-old in some cultures, and this story's 8-year-old sounds more mature than many twenty-somethings I know.

How do you bring that together, though? Should we ban marriage until 25? There are quite a few medical reasons why not, and many social reasons, too. We could at least get a good cross-cultural absolute rule that pre-pubescent girls get you a death penalty. As far as boys that age, well, I have a typical USAian double-standard. It was kind of every boy's fantasy from an early age to have an encounter with a grown woman, even if all the women we knew found teenage boys to be stinky and unimpressive.

There is a reason, for some of you less rigorous thinkers, why this FLDS cult is mostly in Texas instead of Utah, now. And in 40 years among the Mormons, including time even in Utah, I have never seen even a whisper of a chance of anyone living in polygamy. And since the LDS church meetings involve many activities of mother AND father, it would be fairly obvious.

But keep on, people, at least I know to discount anything you might say about Catholicism or Islam in your ignorance.

It might have been fun to see Romney elected president, to see whether baptists or lunatic fringe atheists blew a gasket first. I grew up as a Mormon in Baptist country, though, so you'll need to work to catch up. Maybe a special section telling lies about Mormons at TAM every year, like the revivals did in Mobile. Although "mormons can't ride in cars" and "mormons can't wear makeup" are kind of tame these days. And I suspect any stories about Mormons having more than one wife would have made it back to school.

It would be funny to see the Church trying to re-institute polygamy, anyway, since the Mormons are a very well-educated group of people, including the women. I suspect something that may sound possible in the distant past or the abstract, after-death future would sound a little worse as a possibility for daily life.

Posted by: BubbaRich | April 14, 2008 1:04 AM

Ungtss,

"And as bad as Islam is in some ways, it's much better than the native Arab pagan culture."

Really, who's been feeding you that nonsense? The Muslims practiced genocide on those of "native Arab pagan culture." Kind of hard to be worse than that.

In fact the norms of Mohammed's day held that old men shouldn't marry little children and they found his desires for Aisha to be questionable. Allah cleared it all up however by providing direct commandments indicating that Mohammad should be able to fulfill his child lust.

"Like blaming atheism for the soviet purges."

Actually more like blaming communism for the soviet purges, which is perfectly acceptable. Communism does scapegoat the upper classes and those who collude with them, so naturally there were purges. Just like Islam denigrates certain groups and blames them for all the worlds ills, and thus leads to persecution of those groups.

Besides it is based on Islamic law, and is practiced in many non-Arab countries. Iran being an example:

"A man can have sexual pleasure from a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate vaginally, but sodomising the child is acceptable. If a man does penetrate and damage the child then, he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl will not count as one of his four permanent wives and the man will not be eligible to marry the girl's sister... It is better for a girl to marry at such a time when she would begin menstruation at her husband's house, rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. ["Tahrirolvasyleh", fourth edition, Qom, Iran, 1990]

"In June, 2002 Iranian authorities approved a law raising the age at which girls can marry without parental consent from 9 to 13. The elected legislature actually passed the bill in 2000, but the "Guardian Council", a 12-man body of conservative clerics, vetoed it as contradicting Islamic Sharia law. Iran's clerical establishment insists that the marriage of young girls is a means to combat immorality. The Expediency Council, which arbitrates between the elected parliament and the theocratic Guardian Council, timidly passed the measure. The law however does not change the age at which children can get married (nine for girls and 14 for boys), but says that girls below the age of 13 and boys younger than 15 need their parents' permission and the approval of a "Righteous Court." Reformists state that the new law does not protect children, since most of those who marry at such a young age do so by force."

etc. etc. I could go on and not just for Iran but other non-Arab countries.

I have a friend from India and part of the reason they have arranged marriages between children is because the adult Muslims would raid from the north and take unmarried women (little girls) as wives.

Afghanistan child bride

Pakistan:
Girl, 4, marries man, 45, to settle Pakistani feud
AFP

February 9, 2007

DERA ISMAIL KHAN, Pakistan -- A four-year-old girl was married to a 45-year-old man in a remote Pakistan town to settle a feud, leading to the arrest of 12 people from two families, police said Friday.

The minor, Sumaira, was given in marriage to the middle-aged man, Mahboob Ahmed, as a punishment because the girl's maternal uncle, Mohammad Farooq, had eloped with the adult niece of the bridegroom, police said.

Same in Malaysia, and so forth.

Posted by: Brian Macker | April 14, 2008 1:36 AM

Joseph Smith had some conflicting impressions[stop]

to say the least.

Posted by: Ichthyic | April 14, 2008 2:01 AM

Religion is not ENTIRELY to blame here but let's concede that religion informs the culture as much or more than culture informs religion. I do strongly believe that the more strict and reclusive a religion is that you will see a correlation to higher incidences of abuse, mental, physical, and sexual. The further they get from reality and society the closer they get to madness and depravity.

Posted by: Eric Paulsen | April 14, 2008 2:48 AM

@gwyllion: I've heard of several cases where women were the molesters. Let's just accept that we're all human, we all have urges, and one of the bases of civilization is that we don't give in to them. I for one am disgusted by the idea of rape, and the guy who molested my last girlfriend is still on the top of my list for when the revolution comes, even though we've broken up and so the motivation of wanting to get revenge for my blue balls no longer applies. It's just wrong.

Posted by: wazza | April 14, 2008 3:20 AM