…and this is a 
When will Maj. Freddy J. Welborn be court-martialed?
Category: Politics • Religion
Posted on: April 26, 2008 12:36 PM, by PZ Myers
I think he's due, but he's not the only one. It's like our entire army is being turned into a pocket theocracy.
When Specialist Jeremy Hall held a meeting last July for atheists and freethinkers at Camp Speicher in Iraq, he was excited, he said, to see an officer attending.
But minutes into the talk, the officer, Maj. Freddy J. Welborn, began to berate Specialist Hall and another soldier about atheism, Specialist Hall wrote in a sworn statement. "People like you are not holding up the Constitution and are going against what the founding fathers, who were Christians, wanted for America!" Major Welborn said, according to the statement.
Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment and bring charges against them, according to the statement.
Ugh. Threats from a commanding officer over what our soldiers believe? Not that anyone will chastise him; the conversion of our military into a goon squad for the believers is coming along too far for that.
But Mikey Weinstein, a retired Air Force judge advocate general and founder of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation, said the official statistics masked the great number of those who do not report violations for fear of retribution. Since the Air Force Academy scandal began in 2004, Mr. Weinstein said, he has been contacted by more than 5,500 service members and, occasionally, military families about incidents of religious discrimination. He said 96 percent of the complainants were Christians, and the majority of those were Protestants.
Complaints include prayers "in Jesus' name" at mandatory functions, which violates military regulations, and officers proselytizing subordinates to be "born again." After getting the complainants' unit and command information, Mr. Weinstein said, he calls his contacts in the military to try to correct the situation.
"Religion is inextricably intertwined with their jobs," Mr. Weinstein said. "You're promoted by who you pray with."
"Promoted by who you pray with"…that's scary. We've got selection going on in the armed forces for uniformity of religious belief, and worst of all, it's for the kind of religious belief endorsed by loud Christianist wackaloons.
Comments
What I find most disturbing about all of these stories is the constant re-writing of history. Do these people even know anything about Jefferson or Washington or any of the other founding fathers?
Posted by: Mozglubov | April 26, 2008 12:50 PM
Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment...
The Army is so desperate for people that they're recruiting dropouts, felons, and the mentally-ill - and Major Freddy wants to block trained, experienced veterans from re-upping?
Occasionally you hear about some soldier being given a discharge "for the good of the service." Major Freddy clearly qualifies for same.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | April 26, 2008 12:51 PM
"You do believe in the Virgin Mary, don't you, Private Joker?"
Posted by: Kyle W. | April 26, 2008 12:52 PM
Onward Christian Soldiers.
Posted by: dave | April 26, 2008 12:53 PM
And this is the finest military we ever had?
Posted by: Bill from Dover | April 26, 2008 12:53 PM
Finally! An explanation for why there are no atheists in foxholes.
Posted by: Bob O'H | April 26, 2008 12:56 PM
damn that makes me angry...FUCK!
Posted by: andrew | April 26, 2008 12:57 PM
I thought you'd like this article - I wonder if how many other people tipped off PZ about the NYTimes article.
Posted by: Jason | April 26, 2008 1:00 PM
I think David Bowie wrote a song about this... "I'm Afraid of Americans"
Posted by: Lynnai | April 26, 2008 1:08 PM
It's ironic that these are usually beefy, muscular types who go out to kill... then end the day kneeling in prayer together... which is such a sissy thing to do.
Posted by: Matt | April 26, 2008 1:12 PM
If you are going to get killed in a senseless war, might as well pretend there's a fantasy deity who will neutralize a little problem called DEATH.
Join the Army - because if the IED gets you, heaven's just around the corner.
Fucking assholes.
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 26, 2008 1:13 PM
Does "Republican Guard" sound eerily familiar?
Posted by: Matt Platte | April 26, 2008 1:16 PM
I think this line from the story illustrates just how logic flies out the window when religious folks feel threatened by the non-religious:
Another sergeant allegedly told Specialist Hall that as an atheist, he was not entitled to religious freedom because he had no religion.
Posted by: Kirk | April 26, 2008 1:16 PM
For whatever it's worth, I've had some personal experience with this as a young airman in the USAF. My first supervisor was a 'bornagain' baptist and nearly everything he said was couched in terms of biblicality. He spent much of his time in his office reading the bible, chain smoking cigarettes. Being young and naive, I was heavily intimidated by this guy and had no idea of where to go for recourse (1-stripers then didn't have a lot of recourse for anything). I ended up wasting many of my Saturday mornings down on Central Ave, passing out chic tracts with him to help "save" people.
I'm not proud of this memory and it makes me angry as hell to read of this becoming evidently ever more common in the U.S. military today.
Posted by: Bob V | April 26, 2008 1:21 PM
That's an official position that (at least) the Ohio National Guard Equal Opportunity office uses in their training.
http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/25659
Posted by: benjdm | April 26, 2008 1:23 PM
An atheist friend who went into the navy officers training program was constantly berated that he did not have a bible in the proper place on his living space desk. He finally went out and bought a "Satanic Bible" and put it in the prescribed place. The complaints stopped.
Posted by: Robster, FCD | April 26, 2008 1:25 PM
I can't speak for the Air Force or Navy, but the Army is so desperate for people of just about every rank and skill at this point that the idea of some religious jackass getting away with barring a re-enlistment for this nonsense is ridiculous. The same holds true for promotion in many MOSs. As long as you don't seriously fuck up, you're getting promoted with your peers. Happily, I haven't seen too much of this religious BS in my time in the Army, though I'll be sure to let you know if that changes.
Posted by: redlegphi | April 26, 2008 1:27 PM
Jason--not JASON-- said
I remember the days when one could be pretty sure that you were the only one to tip PZ off to something. That was nice having a smaller community of readers and commenters but I also like that there's so much more information here than before. It's a fair trade-off, I guess.
Posted by: The Science Pundit | April 26, 2008 1:30 PM
#15
The web page you cite has the story on it, but also has several ads for 'Expectorate No Intelligence Whatsoever' on it. I sm so sure the people who are interested in this article will immediately go out and buy a ticket.
We have a turkey, but Thanksgiving is not till November.
Posted by: Jorge666 | April 26, 2008 1:31 PM
Well I'm pretty sure I'm the only one that told PZ about the Mars Trilobites. :)
Posted by: craig | April 26, 2008 1:32 PM
So much for "Stand up! Stand up for Jesus. Ye soldiers of the cross."
If there's one consistent theme with stories like this, it's that when they're caught with their trousers down, they can be relied upon to lie, cover up, and run away as fast as possible.
Posted by: tacitus | April 26, 2008 1:37 PM
Every time I hear about situations like this, my desire to join the military deteriorates a little bit, as it probably does for most atheist high-school or college students with my intentions. However, I think it provides more of a motivation to join for those thinking about it.
There are two ways to prevent discrimination by a government. Get the government to sympathize with the discriminated, or have the discriminated join the government and influence it from within as the fundies did, even though they weren't discriminated against.
A secularist Major (doesn't have to be an atheist) in that base could have been at that meeting and stopped Welborn's tirade. A secularist at a higher rank could easily have prescribed the appropriate punishment.
I'm not saying we have to enlist in droves, I'm saying that this should not be a deterrent.
The problem in this issue is that the military is a high risk organization, and having a discriminated against group refrain from joining in the face of fundies doesn't make a statement for peace or against discrimination in their eyes. It looks to them as a sign of weakness, that it takes a belief in a god to have the confidence to risk your life for your country.
They need appropriate punishment for their discrimination, and that requires that the "higher-ups" either sympathize with the non-Christian position, or ARE non-Christians; the latter being the better option for us.
Posted by: Tolga K. | April 26, 2008 1:38 PM
This is just another step along the ever-shortening road of turning the U.S. into a theocracy.
Fanatics in power in government, supported by a fanatical military.
Posted by: madprophet | April 26, 2008 1:51 PM
When I was in the Air Force (1989-1994) I was forced to have "Christian" put on my Dog Tags as the clerk REFUSED to allow Atheist on the tag. Bitch. I was pissed of as I have ever been but in Basic Training you try not to rock the boat to much. Later on I beat the word out of the tags with a hammer.
Posted by: Kirk | April 26, 2008 1:52 PM
Actually, I was pissed OFF, not pissed OF. :)
Posted by: Kirk | April 26, 2008 1:54 PM
Considering the demographics are towards non-belief among young people, if not out right atheism, the military setting itself up for an interesting recruiting problem. One might predict the end result of all this harassment will be a generation of truly militant atheists that make PZ and Dawkins look like religious apologists.
Posted by: Bob L | April 26, 2008 1:55 PM
So, we've pretty much become the enemy against which we are supposed to be fighting.
Posted by: Dan | April 26, 2008 1:56 PM
Well John Hamilton used to send PZ tips by telegram!
That was back before PZ installed the world-spanning Atheist Monitoring Situation Room in his secret underground lair, and somewhat before it was replaced by an RSS-feed.
I wish I had an underground lair.
Steve "has to make do with a damp crawlspace." James
Posted by: longstreet63 | April 26, 2008 1:58 PM
I dealt with such things pretty much from Day One in my time in the service, including Supervisors who baldly stated (with support from above) that I could not receive highest marks on my evaluations unless I profess to be born again, a Christian, etc. Never mind that the military Xians and Godly are professional soldiers who must, when called, go to war and fight against all enemies foreign and domestic and most likely kill people. The promotion of religion was to me just another form of control of the GI's.
While I refused to participate in group prayers before being issued our weapons like the one commenter previously I witnessed many young service members go along with, participate and profess fealty to something they were uncomfortable about or did not believe in just to "get along", due to lack of ego or out of fear of bad evaluations and poor daily duty assignments.
Posted by: Sleestak | April 26, 2008 1:58 PM
For a thorough discussion of the founding father's religious beliefs, I recommend Joseph Ellis and Brooke Allen on the Britannica blog :
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2007/03/the-us-founding-fathers-their-religious-beliefs-cont/
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2007/04/635/
http://www.britannica.com/blogs/2007/05/founders-and-faith-forum-overview/
summary
Jefferson : atheist
Franklin : deist
Adams : congregationalist / unitarian, anti-evangelicalist
Washington : pantheist/stoic
Hamilton : agnostic / deist first, then lukewarm anglican
"The common conviction that bound together most of the Founders was the belief in the complete separation of church and state. As products of the Enlightenment, they shared Diderot's vision of a heavenly city on earth where the last priest would be strangled with the entrails of the last king."
"None of these men, with the exception of Hamilton towards the end of his life, could strictly be called a Christian."
And finally, some of my favourite words :
"I never told my own religion, nor scrutinized that of another. I never attempted to make a convert, nor wished to change another's creed.
I have never judged the religion of others, and by this test, my dear Madame, I have been satisfied yours must be an excellent one
to have produced a life of such exemplary virtue
and correctness. For it is in our lives and not from our words that our religion must be read."
Thomas Jefferson (1816)
Posted by: negentropyeater | April 26, 2008 2:02 PM
"People like you are not holding up the Constitution!" Major Welborn said
*Article. VI. - Debts, Supremacy, Oaths*
no religious Test shall ever be required as a Qualification to any Office or public Trust under the United States.
http://www.usconstitution.net/const.html#Article6
Posted by: Notorious P.A.T. | April 26, 2008 2:11 PM
This is the ingroup/outgroup think that is innate in all of us. In this case, the military is obviously making this a religious war. Religious wars are just fucking stupid, but they work when it comes to wars. Religion is the ultimate seperation of groups. This story is a horseshit truth and it is sad only few people are raising their fists at the government against this. Even more sad, it doesn't matter, because the government isn't listening.
Posted by: Steve Ulven | April 26, 2008 2:16 PM
Until recently I had been in the US Navy for about five and a half years and I've always felt the need to come to the defense of the armed forces on this subject. Since my first day in I was openly and unabashedly an Atheist and at every single command I was assigned to, including several training commands and two ships, I was not discriminated against once. Everywhere I have been in the Navy has always had a strong and well-enforced religious tolerance policy. When I was stationed on Naval Base Guam I was allowed to hold a Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers meeting at the base chapel, and the Chaplain was more than helpful and accommodating.
What my personal experience has told me is that the areligious intolerance characterized by these stories is at the very least not ubiquitous. In the United States military as I experienced it, this Major would have been sent up and kicked out the second he was exposed. I urge you not to dismiss the entire organization as one big Christian indoctrination camp where you have to hide your beliefs or be subtly persecuted. That was not my experience, nor is it that of many others.
Posted by: T.A.C. | April 26, 2008 2:19 PM
When attempting to create a theocracy, a theocratic military is essential for demonstrating who's in charge.
Posted by: KevinBBG | April 26, 2008 2:25 PM
Maj. Welborn will be getting a Medal of Freedom soon, methinks...
Posted by: Kezaro | April 26, 2008 2:30 PM
I hate to think what officers like this would make of the British armed forces placing adverts in publications aimed at gay men and women, allowing serving personnel to march in gay pride events, and having recruitment stands at those events.
Actually I hope someone does tell him. With any luck he will have a seizure.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | April 26, 2008 2:32 PM
5500 unreported cases of superior officers shoving religion down the throats of their subordinates. What does that say about the number of sexual harassment -- "rank rape" -- cases that we're also not hearing about? Yes, I choose the "down the throats" phrase on purpose.
It's probably many of the same officers. Does the Pentagon have a FLDS office?
Posted by: Bob Munck | April 26, 2008 2:38 PM
Maybe my logic is flawed but it seems to me if there really was a god, there wouldn't be any wars.
Posted by: Bad Albert | April 26, 2008 2:48 PM
Listen folks, when we send our army to fight Israel's battles, it better not have any Jews in it! That would be anti-semetic! Besides, why would a Jew join the American army when he could join the Israeli Defense Force! Only a self-hater would do that.
It's so obvious! Ever heard of a song: "Onward Jewish Soldiers", let alone "Onward Atheist and Agnostic Soldiers"? Of course not!!
Posted by: Mooser | April 26, 2008 2:50 PM
Two things:
Firstly we have from Tolga K
I'm not saying we have to enlist in droves, I'm saying that this should not be a deterrent.
The best way to fight the military machine is from the outside and to support the few unfortunate folks who are in and dealing with the B.S.. I have no question that Spec Hall's life sucks right now; they control the horizontal and the vertical. Do not forget it. If they cannot get to you one way, they will figure out an appropriate non-sequitur and go that route. I came from the intelligence field which is generally loaded with above-average I.Q. cranks who aren't content to accept Uncle Sam's status quo in many cases, and even in an intel unit things can get nasty. I do not even want to think about what types of things those in a semi-brain dead MOS like military police could come up with (and just remember kids, you can't have wimp without M.P.!).
Secondly, from T.A.C.:
Everywhere I have been in the Navy has always had a strong and well-enforced religious tolerance policy.
Yes, I have no doubt that the navy and the air force are somewhat more civilized than the army (unless, of course, you're talking about the morons at the Air Force Academy). I wouldn't try it with the marine corps though.
Having served six years in the army I had run into officers with degrees in music and industrial arts education who couldn't lead to save their lives... or those of their troops. In many cases you have people with "less marketable" degrees (football majors) like poli-sci, english, and sociology who flat out couldn't cut it on the outside and decided to join. There seems to be a higher number of .. uhm.. "religious types" in this group. C'est la vie.
Posted by: Thomas | April 26, 2008 2:52 PM
this is front page story over at CNN.com this afternoon.
Nice to see.
Posted by: marcia | April 26, 2008 2:52 PM
I was also one of the people who sent in this article as a link. To make my job easier, here's a repost of what I said in another thread:
I've had to defend against negative commentary on my evaluations because of my belief. I had other Officers try to sink my career more than once. I suppose I'm lucky that I haven't had death threats...yet.
Because of all of this, I usually tend not to discuss religion, just like I don't discuss politics since they also go against the mainstream sounding-board. I keep my complaints formal, legal, and restricted to the bare minimum of personnel who need to know.
Posted by: Mystyk | April 26, 2008 2:56 PM
Oops. The rest of that comment was all supposed to be part of the quote. Oh well...
Posted by: Mystyk | April 26, 2008 2:58 PM
@T.A.C. by all accounts, at least from reading other blogs and the MSM, the US Navy is the one force where this type of behaviour is not generally the norm and what you describe is closer to the norm. The worst by far, appears to be the USAAF, where they are almost rabidly theocratic all the way to the top. The Army is a bit of a mixed bag and can vary from unit to unit or camp to camp. What I find strange is that back in the early 70s I served alongside different branches of the US armed forces at different times in a few hot spots, and while religion was visible, it wasn't intrusive as it appears today. Most, both in our forces and yours regarding the average padre as a nice enough well meaning fellow but a bit of a joke and generally regarded religious services as a chance to sit down for a period to have a rest. It seems that certain areas of the US military has actually regressed, and drastically so, in regards to religion. Then again, considering how politicians have exploited the religious over the last twenty years or so, we perhaps shouldn't be too surprised, however reprehesnible we consider it.
Posted by: John Phillips, FCD | April 26, 2008 2:59 PM
http://www.rand.org/pubs/conf_proceedings/CF179/
Ready for Armageddon
Proceedings of the 2001 RAND Arroyo- U.S. Army ACTD-CETO-USMC Non-Lethal and Urban Operations Program Urban Operations Conference
On March 22-23, 2001, four organizations co-hosted the fourth annual Urban Operations Conference .... the training essential to success in environments where much is demanded of the most junior-level leaders.
....
Posted by: Hank Roberts | April 26, 2008 3:04 PM
As a Marine, one of the things I had drilled into me from start to finish is their motto "Semper Fidelis" which, of course means "Always Faithful". In order, the things you are told you must be faithful to are:
1. God
2. Country
3. Corps
That "God, Country, Corps" thing is still the unofficial motto of the Marines. You can even get the hat...
http://military.usptgear.com/Page.asp?QID={}&nWebPage=ProductBulk&ProdID=hoovers771635&Branch=Marines&Prod=Headwear
Posted by: Dahan | April 26, 2008 3:07 PM
I've been collecting information about this issue for a little over a year now: http://issuepedia.org/Religious_control_of_the_US_military
That's a wiki-based site, so please feel free to add more.
Posted by: Woozle | April 26, 2008 3:07 PM
This kind of behavior has been extensively blogged about at Talk to Action and is the subject of investigations and lawsuits by the Military Religious Freedom Foundation. The MRFF's urgent issues page details the organization's efforts. They are adamantly opposed to the "Christianization" of the U.S. military.
Posted by: Neon Vincent | April 26, 2008 3:08 PM
#46, that should be:
"God, Country, Corpses"
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 26, 2008 3:16 PM
This politician in soldiers' clothing makes me fucking sick. The play for Christian hegemony in this country by the current administration and its supporters apparently knows no bounds, and this does not surprise me in the least. Though I rarely ever came across any sort of religious persecution in the Army, that by no means indicates a representative experience. The reason for my not being surprised at this is that it shows the same characteristics of how merit and competency has been evaluated and rewarded in the Army officer corps for the last half of my career. Sadly, promotion is becoming less merit-based and more networking-based as time passes. (It's a self-sufficient phenomenon after a while - just like some police officers have their "rabbi" who watches their back from the higher echelon, some privileged soldiers have the same - and the more it occurs, the more that the sycophants pervade the highest echelons of command.)
Officers who think that their authority gives them the right to invade a soldier's brain and force it to conform to external norms should be stripped of all rank, privilege, and freedom - and sent straight to Leavenworth. The idea that the Army "breaks down" a soldier to build them back up they way they want them is patently false. The idea that a soldier is supposed to be an automaton who parrots their officers' philosophies and beliefs wholesale died a long time ago, and it is an insult to our entire nation that such a thing happened to this Specialist.
It will be claimed that this is the rogue action of one misguided officer, but the threats Specialist Hall received from his fellow soldiers - and the fact that this Major was not immediately reprimanded for his conduct and removed from his duties - are testaments to the fact that this viewpoint is being advocated from somewhere. All that this religious persecution will do to the military is throw up a warning flag to those soldiers who choose not to follow any religious doctrine and prevent them from joining. And it will also throw the same "stay away" warning at citizens of non-Christian faiths. For a nation that depends upon an all-volunteer force, this quite directly jeopardizes our national security by drastically reducing the potential pool of recruits, and does so using a policy in direct opposition to our own Constitution.
In short, this is not the kind of officer that deserves any modicum of respect at all. He is an ignorant, blindly loyal hack that gets a kick out of "playing Army," not because it is a duty he cherishes, but instead because it is a place where he can put a uniform on, pin some metal to it, and automatically demand respect. This is the kind of person that can't get respect anywhere on his own, so he has to subordinate himself to others - in body and mind, both - just so he can have a chance to bark down at the ones even lower on the pecking order. His actions reveal him to be the sycophantic, incompetent ass-kisser that he really is, and displays his lack of both patriotism, due to his lack of understanding of the history of our nation and its founding principles, and his overall intelligence. The fact that he is a Major does not impress me, because not only does it appear that he shows none of the requisite intelligence of a field-grade officer, it is also clear he embodies none of the tolerance and regard for soldiers that an officer of his rank is supposed to possess. Rank be damned - if this Captain ever saw him treating a soldier this way, much less an entire strata of them, he'd quickly find that I have no aversion to beating the holy shit out of a superior officer, when said officer is dead wrong. And if I got sent to Leavenworth because of it, that would be fine by me, because I would have been sent there for doing something I knew to be right. Just as I was fine with dying in defense of something I believed in, I'd be willing to sit in a cell for years for just the same thing. And at least I'd get to have the memory of beating this dick-bag into the dirt to keep me company in my confinement...
Posted by: brokenSoldier | April 26, 2008 3:18 PM
Posted by: SEF | April 26, 2008 3:19 PM
It's worse than you think. Evangelism is taking over the upper ranks of metropolitan police departments across the country. Once they get in, they begin converting the others and purging the heretics. The LAPD went all-Jesus back when Daryl Gates was Chief Inquisitor.
Posted by: Bill the Cat | April 26, 2008 3:23 PM
Meh, it's what they do, Pierce.
Don't forget that in a world where we're supposedly facing international threats on many fronts, retaining highly-trained specialists who speak difficult-to-learn languages directly relevant to the war isn't nearly as high a priority as getting rid of gay service personnel.
Posted by: thalarctos | April 26, 2008 3:26 PM
"Promoted by who you pray with" is a bit of an exaggeration. It's possible in rare cases that religious issues might affect how strong of a promotion recommendation you get, but there are checks and balances to control for preferential treatment. And officer promotions are done by boards looking at hundreds of records, so no one on the board is likely to have a clue what your religious beliefs are.
I personally keep my atheism to myself to avoid impacting my work environment, but in seven years of service, I haven't seen many cases where I thought it would matter if I was more public about it. Some working relationships would probably be more uncomfortable, and I definitely know there are people out there who would hold it against me, but I've been lucky enough to work with some great people, so it's not been a big deal.
I've seen some things that irked me, like someone using work email to advertise a creationist talk at a local church (I complained to my boss about that one). In another case, our squadron chaplain prefaced every prayer given at official functions by saying his religion required him to say "in Jesus's name" at the end of his prayer, but encouraged others to say whatever the wished in their heads when he got to that point. Apparently if he had just said "in Jesus's name" to himself like everyone else, Jesus would have struck him down on the spot. But on the whole, as much as chaplains irk me, most of them adhere to the vanilla prayers that don't favor a particular sect and they don't bother you if you don't want them around.
Posted by: Nately | April 26, 2008 3:35 PM
AS of 2:50 CST, its on CNN's front page.
Posted by: bill r | April 26, 2008 3:53 PM
Well, the way things are in the world at present, anything that undermines the efficiency or morale of the US or UK armed forces is just fine by me.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | April 26, 2008 3:53 PM
Yeah. 56 comments in about 3 hours. It's hard to be sure you aren't repeating someone else's thoughts.
Posted by: BaldApe | April 26, 2008 4:01 PM
Sorry to disagree with you Nick #56
"anything that undermines the efficiency or morale of the US or UK armed forces is just fine by me."
The last thing we want, surely, is a bunch of fundamentalist loonies heading towards salvation with the largest nuclear arsenal on the planet at their command!
Posted by: Kitty | April 26, 2008 4:02 PM
True, but these boards almost never see the soldier they are evaluating in person, and the only means they have of evaluating the individual soldier is through their DA photo, their bio, service jacket, and the evaluations of their performance written by their superiors. These evaluations are subjective documents in which your commander is urged to judge your potential as a leader, and if an officer's faith influences his treatment of soldiers (as is obvious in this case), it is a logical impossibility to claim that such officers can keep those considerations separate when writing evaluations.
The evaluations they write do not even have to directly address religious beliefs. If my commander doubts me because I'm an atheist, he can find any number of things to ding me on in my evaluation. And since officers today pump up their subordinates to a ridiculous level for merely performing their duties, even faint praise can damn your career, while an outright criticism in writing will stop it dead in its tracks. Some of these guys are made to sound like Superman for simply doing their jobs. For example, there was a general in Vietnam who got awarded a medal for his expert operation of the radio in the helicopter he sat in, while he directed his men on the ground who were doing the fighting. (This is in the book Platoon Leader by Col. (Ret.) Jim McDonough.)
This same thing still continues today, so I can't really muster enough faith in the Army's promotion system to say I believe it isn't being perverted by individuals with personal agendas. This story is one proof positive that such perversion of the system is going on, and Specialist Hall's treatment is further proof that it isn't as isolated as we'd all like to think.
Posted by: brokenSoldier | April 26, 2008 4:03 PM
Re #58 Good point. I retract the "anything". However, the danger of nuclear war being launched comes from the high command, and specifically the POTUS, not junior officers. If they behave like idiots, it will make recruitment, retention and training of competent people, and hence aggressive use of the forces, more difficult. Currently, I see that as far more likely than a deliberate fundamentalist attempt to engineer Armageddon.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | April 26, 2008 4:14 PM
Soldiers have no control over how they are utilized. They sign up for a great many reasons, but the reason I signed up at 17 was because I thought that it was something I needed to do to earn the right to live in our society. That said, I also believe that such a choice should be available to all - service should never be mandatory. If you choose not to support a government by not enlisting, then that is fine by me, but don't blame the soldiers for the government's misuse of them in wars and conflicts that so many of the soldiers would rather not be involved with in the first place.
They have no option other than to do what they said they would do and follow orders, an sense of obligation shared on paper, but rarely in theory, by the Army. When it comes time to get out, they can stop-loss you to send you back over again. When you get hurt, they reserve the right to internally change the definition of medical terminology to decrease the number of soldiers who qualify for a certain rating. In my case, they changed the definition of prostrating - as in prostrating headache due to concussion injury - from its traditional definition to one meaning "stopping all action and seeking emergency medical care immediately" in the form of driving to the emergency room every time such a condition arises. Since the very definition of the word prostrating is in no way conducive to being able to get into a car and drive to the E.R., they effectively reduced the number of post-concussion trauma patients who would qualify for the most serious of the two ratings listed under that particular category. And this change of terminology involved nothing more than the Army publishing a Dept. of Defense Instruction memorandum to their Physician Evaluation Boards. (There is no requirement to tell soldiers any of this - I found out when they cited it as a reason for my low rating.)
So do not blame the soldier for the crimes of the Commander-in-Chief and his henchmen. If the soldier does something to deserve contempt, like this Major Welborn, then criticize, slam, and belittle away. But wholesale inefficiency and bad morale gets soldiers killed, but it only gets politicians defeated in their next elections. As such, it's not something I'd wish upon any soldier.
Posted by: brokenSoldier | April 26, 2008 4:26 PM
"People like you are not holding up the Constitution..."
Perhaps the good major was using the term "hold up" in a different sense, as in "impeding the progress of."
Or maybe he meant "hold up" as in, "armed robbery:"
"Ok, Constitution, be a nice fellow and hand over your Article VI and your First Amendment, and nobody gets hurt."
Posted by: Mikey M | April 26, 2008 4:30 PM
No atheists in foxholes? That's because they've been EXPELLED!
Posted by: Elf Eye | April 26, 2008 4:34 PM
It looks like Spec. Hall is not the only one who should be aware of the GI Rights Hotline at 800-394-9544 &/or http://girights.objector.org/.
Phone calls to the Hotline are handled by an operator who takes the caller's contact info and passes that along to the closest of the numerous small groups of trained counselors, one of whom then returns the call at an arranged time.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | April 26, 2008 4:34 PM
I don't know if this makes any sense but if I were a general and I had to select an army of soldiers for a potentially very harsh battle with the enemy, I'd probably favour the faithheads over the non believers. Maybe it's a stupid prejudice but somehow it seems they are easier to command and send to their potential deaths.
Is this stupid or not ?
Posted by: negentropyeater | April 26, 2008 4:40 PM
Posted by: Nick Gotts | April 26, 2008 4:14 PM
I was writing as you posted this, so I made my agrument before seeing your above statement.
I agree with the point of what you're saying here. While junior officers aren't ultimate in their ability to influence our current aggressive foreign policy, they are still definitely instrumental in creating the environment needed for such aggression, through conduct like you explain above. But then again, it seems like this is the exact purpose to all this. If you get all the free-thinkers out, then Left Behind: Eternal Forces ceases to be a video game and instead becomes a potential reality.
Posted by: brokenSoldier | April 26, 2008 4:41 PM
"Soldiers have no control over how they are utilized. They sign up for a great many reasons, but the reason I signed up at 17 was because I thought that it was something I needed to do to earn the right to live in our society."
You thought you needed to go kill people to earn the right to live in America?
That's fucked up.
"If you choose not to support a government by not enlisting, then that is fine by me, but don't blame the soldiers for the government's misuse of them in wars and conflicts that so many of the soldiers would rather not be involved with in the first place."
I blame you. If they didn't have recruits, the whole thing would collapse. You make it all possible. You're an enabler.
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 26, 2008 4:41 PM
This story will be getting major TV coverage tomorrow morning. The schedule as of right now is:
Good Morning America on ABC at about 7:00 A.M. EDT - Mikey will be on live
CBS News Sunday Morning - the program runs from 9:00 to 10:30 A.M. EDT, and it's supposed to be the second segment
Posted by: Chris Rodda | April 26, 2008 4:49 PM
CalGeorge,
'If they didn't have recruits, the whole thing would collapse. You make it all possible. You're an enabler."
Not true. You're thinking with wishes instead of accepting realities. Talk to me about all the governments out there that don't have a military.
There will always be a military. If there aren't enough recruits, here in America, joining will be made compulsory. We would join the likes of Israel, etc. Since there's no way of getting rid of the military altogether in anything like the near future, it takes a little worry off my mind that some, less radical and less pious people are in attendance to try to keep the whole thing slightly less dangerous.
The world is a bit more nuanced than you seem to think it is.
Comments like "You thought you needed to go kill people to earn the right to live in America?" are not helpful and make you seem more obtuse than I know you are.
Posted by: Dahan | April 26, 2008 4:53 PM
#68 Thank you, Chris Rodda, for your vigilance and hard work. I get frustrated by dealing with creationists, but I think historical revisionists are tougher opponents.
And to more posters on this thread than I can keep track of, thank you for your military service, and sharing your stories. Your courage does not go unappreciated.
Posted by: J | April 26, 2008 5:11 PM
When you have lots of economic, educational, and career opportunities to choose among, it can sometimes be easy to forget that that fact is not true for everyone.
While it certainly has never been perfect, historically, the military has been a place where talented and disciplined people of different ethnic, national, and class backgrounds could build a future for themselves, often a much better future than the possibilities existing in the neighborhoods they grew up in.
Many of the people in the military now joined pre-Bush for just those reasons (to get an education, gain a skill, get out of bad neighborhoods); it's not their fault that the present government perverted their mission.
Posted by: thalarctos | April 26, 2008 5:18 PM
don't blame the soldiers for the government's misuse of them in wars and conflicts that so many of the soldiers would rather not be involved with in the first place.
They have no option other than to do what they said they would do and follow orders - brokenSoldier@61
Of course primary blame lies at the top, but there is always an option to disobey orders (though I admit, a very hard one to take, and not just because it may get you imprisoned or killed). Specifically, if a soldier believes the orders they are given are immoral there is a moral obligation to disobey, and if the orders are in violation of international law, obedience can make the soldier a war criminal.
wholesale inefficiency and bad morale gets soldiers killed, but it only gets politicians defeated in their next elections. - brokenSoldier@61
Efficiency and good morale also gets people killed - on the other side. Less directly, it can also lead to wars being launched, and hence to deaths of soldiers on both sides, and of civilians. To be more specific, the vast majority of those killed, maimed or displaced in Iraq and Afghanistan have been civilian residents of those countries. Their lives are no less valuable than those of the soldiers.
If you get all the free-thinkers out, then Left Behind: Eternal Forces ceases to be a video game and instead becomes a potential reality. - brokenSoldier@66
I guess (correct me if I'm wrong) that you're thinking here of US forces being used to impose a theocracy in the US itself. I think that highly unlikely; it could only happen if the main centres of civilian power had already been captured, and in those circumstances, I think the armed forces would do as they were ordered even without a prior purge of freethinkers - not hard to manufacture a "threat to the nation's existence" to get enough on board. What is not unlikely, and indeed is going on now, is the use of US forces and those of "jackal powers" like the UK, to serve the interests of the US political-corporate-military elite, which is not currently theocratic, primarily at the expense of ordinary people in other countries. The presence of freethinkers in the armed forces has been no obstacle to this, and it depends on those forces' efficiency and morale.
In the absence of very good reasons to do otherwise, I favour the defeat of aggressors in war. Afghanistan is an arguable case, but in that of Iraq, there is no genuine doubt about who the aggressors are - your country, and mine.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | April 26, 2008 5:24 PM
"If you choose not to support a government by not enlisting,"
I have a huge problem with this statement. The military minded often think the only way to be a patriot, the only way to support your country, is to go through the military.
The best way to be a patriot is to do what you are able to do to the best of your ability. It doesn't matter what career you have, as long as you work with at least some intention to benefit the country. Every job here is useful, be it garbage truck driving or practicing medicine, or joining the military.
It's sad to see that people who devote their lives to advance society are not respected nearly as much as people who risk their lives to defend it. The hard working civilian deserves as much respect as a soldier.
Posted by: Tolga K. | April 26, 2008 5:33 PM
Maybe it's natural selection and Christianity is winning.
Maybe we are just going to evolve into something much smarter and Christianity is the way to go.
Posted by: Pat Jones | April 26, 2008 5:47 PM
Major Welborn told the soldiers he might bar them from re-enlistment
hmm. So atheism is a better out than shooting yourself in the foot.
good to know.
Is the Pentagon formulating a new "Don't Ask - Don't Tell" policy at this point?
Posted by: Ichthyic | April 26, 2008 5:48 PM
Maybe we are just going to evolve into something much smarter and Christianity is the way to go.
historical evidence would suggest otherwise.
Posted by: Ichthyic | April 26, 2008 5:49 PM
Oh, this is just f***ing great. Now the right-wing Xtianazis have control of the weapons! This is really going to get ugly in the coming years, I can just see it.
Posted by: Steve T | April 26, 2008 5:52 PM
Posted by: CalGeorge | April 26, 2008 4:41 PM
What's fucked up, besides your reading comprehension, is the fact that you're putting words in my mouth and making completely false and idiotic claims about my motives for joining the military. I'll spell it out for you, since you made it clear that I need to do so. I joined the US Army because I felt a need to serve the country. My family has a long history of service in the Army, and as such I decided to continue that tradition and enlisted. I took an oath to defend the Constitution, from enemies both foreign and domestic. What that means is exactly what it says - that I protect the principles in the US Constitution from anyone who threatens them, or the society founded upon them. It says that I did that because I believe that if no one were there to sacrifice (time, money, safety, etc..) for the good of the society they live in, then there would be none of the protections and assurances that hold up