Pharyngula

A Ford dealership is taking a novel approach to advertising: by telling a small subset of their potential customer base to shut up.

But did you know that 86% of Americans say they believe in God? Since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Christians, who believe in God, we at Keiffe & Sons Ford wonder why we don’t tell the other 14% to sit down and shut up. I guess maybe I just offended 14% of the people who are listening to this message. Well, if that is the case then I say that’s tough, this is America folks, it’s called free speech. None of us at Keiffe & Sons Ford are afraid to speak out. Keiffe & Sons Ford on Sierra Highway in Mojave and Rosamond, if we don’t see you today, by the grace of God, we’ll be here tomorrow.

One sad thing about that is that it is probably effective, and I would be unsurprised if the ad is doing well for them. The dealership is in a conservative part of California (Mojave), and I suspect the area has fewer than 14% in the group they’ve just kicked to the curb. In addition, the ad probably simply reinforces in-group loyalty for the dominant Christian audience.

Oh, well. There’s not much we can do, except boycott Kieffe and Sons Ford, and heck, boycott Ford altogether — Ford seems unconcerned about the fact that one of their dealerships is using bigotry to sell cars. You could also write to Kieffe and Sons, although they’ve already announced that they don’t give a damn about your opinion. If you do write, though, be polite.

I know we’re going to be in the market for a new car in the next few years. It won’t be a Ford. There was no risk that I’d be going to Mojave, California to pick it up, though.


Comments

  1. #1 Yvonne
    May 26, 2008

    I boycott any garage that has one of those fish logos on it (unless it’s the one with legs and Darwin written in it). As an avowed secularist (I think it’s the only way to ensure interfaith harmony), I object to religion in the public domain. It’s one thing for individuals to wear religious symbols; it’s quite another for businesses to espouse a particular religion.

    As an uppity Pagan, and therefore one of that 14%, I object strongly to this garage’s stance.

  2. #2 Dutch Vigilante
    May 26, 2008

    “But did you know that 86% of Americans say they believe in God? Since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Christians.”

    Yeah.. thats not true, believing in god isn’t being christian. He kinda exluded muslims, jews and a whole lot others.

  3. #3 Ast
    May 26, 2008

    If his forecourt gets trashed by an Act of God?, I hope he has the good grace to sit down, shut up and not claim on the insurance.

  4. #4 amph
    May 26, 2008

    it’s called free speech

    Not being a native speaker, I learn a lot at this site. So telling 1/7 of the population to “sit down and shut up” is typically what supporters of Free Speech would say.

    BTW, what is true of that story about Henry Ford and the Nazis?

  5. #5 Jonathan
    May 26, 2008

    “Since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Christians, who believe in God, we at Keiffe & Sons Ford wonder why we don’t tell the other 14% to sit down and shut up. I guess maybe I just offended 14% of the people who are listening to this message. Well, if that is the case then I say that’s tough, this is America folks, it’s called free speech. ”

    Free speech means telling people who don’t believe in god not to speak freely? I’m confused.

  6. #6 SC
    May 26, 2008

    amph,

    From the Wikipedia page on The Protocols of the Elders of Zion:

    In a single year 1920, five editions sold out in England. That same year in the United States, Henry Ford sponsored the printing of 500,000 copies, and from 1920 to 1922 published a series of antisemitic articles, entitled The International Jew: The World’s Foremost Problem, in The Dearborn Independent, a newspaper he owned. In 1921 Ford cited it as evidence of a Jewish threat: “The only statement I care to make about the Protocols is that they fit in with what is going on. They are 16 years old, and they have fitted the world situation up to this time.”[30] In 1927, however, Ford retracted his publication and apologized, claiming his assistants duped him. On the other side, he did so only after court ordered him to. Moreover, he later expressed his admiration for Nazi Germany.[31]

    The story was told in somewhat more depth recently in a PBS series – something like “The Jews in America.”

  7. #7 Dianne
    May 26, 2008

    BTW, what is true of that story about Henry Ford and the Nazis?

    Ford was a supporter and admirer of the Nazis, had the “protocols of the elders of zion” translated into German, funded the Nazi party during the 1920s when it was just another lunatic fringe party (possibly keeping it from dissolving for lack of funds), and helped invade Poland. If you won’t buy Mercedes or Volkswagen because of their Nazi past, don’t buy Ford either. GM was also involved. Chrysler has merged with Mercedes. Hmm…I hear the Japanese make nice cars…er, no, never mind. Ah, just dump the FSM-damned car altogether.

  8. #8 Sloan
    May 26, 2008

    So you need a new car?

    Let your fingers take a walk

    Through the business guide

    To the born-again flock.

    You’ll be keepin’ all your money

    In the Kingdom now

    And you’ll only drink milk

    From a Christian cow.

    — Steve Taylor, “Guilty by Association”

    Businesses like car dealerships are privately owned entities, and so they do have a right to do stuff like this. But I still think it’s asinine.

  9. #9 Jérôme ^
    May 26, 2008

    Don’t buy Renault either in this case — it was nationalized post-war to punish the Renault family for having been collaborationists.

    But this story of Big Car Factories being pals with various fascist movements in the twenties and thirties is no surprise (don’t know about Fiat however), as the big corporations generally sponsored a movement that was effective in preventing syndical action — the Red Fear was high back then.

    Well, this leaves Lada as a safe bet. :-)

  10. #10 SC
    May 26, 2008

    None of us at Keiffe & Sons Ford are afraid to speak out.

    Ah, the courage to speak out on behalf of the overwhelming majority to seek to silence the minority, for the purpose of pushing an ecologically-disastrous product on behalf of a giant corporation. A fine example of bravery in the US. My country, ’tis of thee…

  11. #11 Mike Haubrich, FCD
    May 26, 2008

    Another reason to steer away from Ford is the reckless decision they made to close the plant in St. Paul. The plant has the highest productivity of all of their North American plants, it has a dam that Ford built to supply their hydroelectric power (on the Mississippi,) and it was building small trucks which get better gas mileage than their big ones.

    While they were deciding to close, I sent them letters explaining that since they have a backlog of demand for the Escape hybrid, they could easily re-tool this plant to build them (since the Rangers and the Escapes share a platform.) No response.

    American manufacturers are clueless. They keep building these big trucks that get horrendous mileage, while they should have noticed back in the 1970′s that we were going to come to this energy awareness soon. Instead they built a few small cars for a few years and then went back to larger and larger.

    Back to the original story. When I see the stores with the fish, I tend to avoid them. It’s certainly their right, but I sure get suspicious of them. Putting up a sign like that tells me that perhaps their parts and service aren’t so great and that they draw in “people like us.”

    “Well, dear, we could save $50 buying the Fridge at ‘Appliances R Us.’”
    “Yes, I know, but we don’t know what religion those people are. I think we should buy from that nice young man who isn’t afraid to tell the world he is a Christian. He’s got a family to feed, you, know.”

    Silly way to make a purchase, decision, I know. But consider this. Q. Cumbers restaurant advertises on our radio show, and so the crew often heads over for the “Intellgently Designed Salad Bar” after the show on Sundays. Mickey, the owner, is an atheist and a regular commenter at Richarddawkins.net. He told us one morning that he had a family that were regular customers. They had been coming in for brunch at least once a month after Church. He talked to them often, as he is a gregarious and friendly fellow.

    One Sunday morning, the father of the family said “Mickey, you are always so energetic and cheerful. You must be a Christian.”

    Mickey told the guy that he is, in fact, an atheist. And the family has never come back to his restaurant.

    I wasn’t planning on traveling to the Mojave to buy a Ford, anyway, but count me among those who are boycotting that dealership.

  12. #12 vjack
    May 26, 2008

    It is hard to imagine that letters to them would help, but letters to the parent company and bad publicity just might do the trick. Locally, I’d recommend picketting the dealership.

  13. #13 Molly, NYC
    May 26, 2008

    . . . it’s called free speech.

    No, it’s called incredibly bad manners (insulting people for no reason)–and worse business sense: there’s a reason why these people are reduced to selling crapmobiles in the middle of nowhere.

    And no, a handful of religious crazies drawn in by the “nobody here but us chickens” rhetoric isn’t going to help their bottom line; people that gullible don’t usually have two quarters to click together (especially since their kind is also Purina Mortgage Bankers Chow). Keiffe & Sons probably have to keep a meth lab out in the back, just to make ends meet.

  14. #14 MAJeff, OM
    May 26, 2008

    When I see the stores with the fish, I tend to avoid them. It’s certainly their right, but I sure get suspicious of them.

    Same here. Won’t set foot in the door.

  15. #15 Ed Darrell
    May 26, 2008

    I suspect Ford Motor Co. would be happy to sell anyone of any belief a car.

    In fact, they’re so happy to sell cars to anyone that they advertise in openly gay publications. For that, they get calls for boycotts from Focus on the Family-type groups.

    How can Ford tell whether the boycotter is an honest, patriotic atheist, or some fundy sicko?

    Write a letter to the dealership. Write a letter to the newspaper (they don’t have to print offensive ads — the First Amendment is not so broad for paid, commercial speech). Don’t get confused with the Dobsonites.

  16. #16 Michelle
    May 26, 2008

    Talk about close-minded.

    And tell me, what the FUCK does God have to do with shitty cars? Seriously… Ford sucks! If that’s God’s choice of cars, sorry, I’ll skip.

  17. #17 Louis
    May 26, 2008

    All this just goes to show why I own a BMW. If you like you manufacturers ethically dubious and associated with the German Imperial War Machine of old, then you can’t go wrong with a Bavarian Murder Weapon!

    The antecedents of modern BMW didn’t persecute any one group, they persecuted pretty much every one they could. Yay persecution.

    {tongue firmly in cheek}

    Louis

  18. #18 Exitus
    May 26, 2008

    I suspect that if that happened in England, they’d be laughed all the way into bankruptcy…

  19. #19 LawnBoy
    May 26, 2008

    #8:

    Even though I am now an atheist, I used to be a big fan of Steve Taylor in my young Christian days (and I still listen to his music occasionally). He was very controversial in the Christian music community because he criticized the Christian community and was sarcastic about it, as well.

    I suppose no one here cares if Steve Taylor supports the type of inanity that the dealership presents, but I want to point out that he wasn’t supporting it (back in about 1984).

    Here’s a comment from his fan club about it (http://www.sockheaven.net/discography/taylor/meltdown/07.html):

    “["Guilty By Association"] takes a tongue-in-cheek look at the guilt by association mentality we sometimes find in Christianity. So often instead of searching the Scriptures, we let other people do our thinking, telling us that God gave them a message for us to “send money to support this” or “not to listen to that.” Without the Bible backing up what we say, it’s impossible for us to speak with authority, which is the theme behind this reggae-flavored song.”

  20. #20 BadMA
    May 26, 2008

    I agree that free speech does give them the right to say what they want (however impolite and insulting it may be), but OTOH I’m curious to know what would happen if someone who admitted to being an atheist walked into their show room looking to buy a car. Would their opinion suddenly change? Would they refuse to sell him or her a car? Would that still be legal?

  21. #21 Cheezits
    May 26, 2008

    Free speech means telling people who don’t believe in god not to speak freely?

    It means telling the world you’re stupid. :-D It never fails – nearly every time someone makes a point of ranting publically about something idiotic, they preface it with “this is America” or “free speech” or the like.

    But what the hell. I only drive Hondas.

  22. #22 wazza
    May 26, 2008

    Not just England. ANYWHERE but the US, at least as far as developed countries go.

    And rightly so. These people are haters, and that’s not what christianity is about, and that’s not what our society is about.

    This reminds me of an anecdote I need to pass on here, just as a reminder that not all christians are haters. My sisters went to a different high school than me, and their physics teacher – like most of their teachers – was a friend of my parents. He was a devout christian, and lent me a book about creationism when I was about eleven, so we could discuss it afterwards while we put together a frame for a sundial I’d built. He leaned towards it because of his faith, but wanted to discuss it logically, because of his profession.

    And he knew my parents were agnostic at best, and probably atheist except that they never really cared that much. And my mother still treasures something he said to her; “Jo, I know you don’t believe in God, but you’re the best Christian I ever met.”

    And that’s what these people forget. Christianity isn’t about Leviticus, it’s about love.

  23. #23 SC
    May 26, 2008

    More on US corporations and Nazi Germany, from the documentary “The Corporation”:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pkoM8RB-kJ0

  24. #24 Gene Goldring
    May 26, 2008

    The dealership has a contact page.
    http://www.kieffeandsons.com/

  25. #25 Matt Heath
    May 26, 2008

    While they don’t seem to know the difference between “non-Christian” and “atheist” it seems they are meaning for all of the former to STFU. Maybe it’s worth drawing it to the attention of non-Christian God-botherers; religious groups seem pretty good at organized indignation, after all.

  26. #26 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    May 26, 2008

    This man is obviously a shitty capitalist. If I was a private business owner I would want everyone’s money as long as they conducted business honestly.

  27. #27 chancelikely
    May 26, 2008

    But did you know that 86% of Americans say they are White? Since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Whites, we at Keiffe & Sons Ford wonder why we don’t tell the other 14% to sit down and shut up. I guess maybe I just offended 14% of the people who are listening to this message. Well, if that is the case then I say that’s tough, this is America folks, it’s called free speech. None of us at Keiffe & Sons Ford are afraid to speak out. Keiffe & Sons Ford on Sierra Highway in Mojave and Rosamond, if we don’t see you today, by the grace of God, we’ll be here tomorrow.

    I like that they used 86/14, because it’s remarkably close to the percentage of African-Americans in the U.S. And higher than the percentage of either gays or left-handers.

  28. #28 j.t.delaney
    May 26, 2008

    This is a strange way to do business, and I’m not so convinced it will work out in their favor. It’s a crass and ugly tactic, and while it might win the favor of a number of religious fanatics, I’m not sure how many Holy Joes are sick and tired of having to share a dealership with Teh Heathens. At the same time, not only will this alienate the non-Christians for no good reason (~14% of would-be customers), but also a lot of Christian moderates who value pluralism, and would otherwise be turned off by this kind of rhetoric. Hopefully, this blows up in their face, and they’re left feeling like the asses they are…

    …Of course, what would be real leverage would be for this to gain international attention. Globally, Christians make up only about 25% of the population, a news story headlining that Ford openly discriminates against non-Christians would certainly be bad for their image in emerging markets.

  29. #29 Reginald
    May 26, 2008

    I am officially boycotting Ford until they come out and issue a public apology for this ad (I know it’s not Ford Motor making the ad but they have to have some control over their dealers).

    I was in the market for a new pickup too, but it looks like I’m not getting an F-150. I guess I’m going Toyota or Dodge.

    Honestly get over yourself Ford. The love affair was over in the 20s, your marketing is crap and your product is crap.

  30. #30 David Marjanovi?, OM
    May 26, 2008

    Well, this leaves Lada as a safe bet. :-)

    And Yugo! ;-)

    China has entered the business, too, but AFAIK they don’t export their own car brands yet.

  31. #31 Emmet Caulfield
    May 26, 2008

    It never ceases to amaze me how few USans have the faintest clue what principles the US is supposed to be founded on. Fond as they are of words like “unamerican”, I would guess that USans are now by far the most “unamerican” population in the West.

  32. #32 SC
    May 26, 2008

    Their speech might not be as free as they think. Isn’t the dealership a Ford franchise? Given how creepily protective companies are about their “image”

    see here: http://consumerist.com/consumer/leaks/verizons-style-book-for-deploying-can-you-hear-me-now-guy-301676.php

    I would assume there may be something in their contract with Ford that prohibits certain kinds of advertisements. But I really don’t know anything about these agreements, so I may be wrong.

  33. #33 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    May 26, 2008

    And another thing, I’m guessing that they really are shitty businessmen beyond just this add. Whomever designed their website need to be taken out back and flogged.

  34. #34 Karl Otterson
    May 26, 2008

    Here is what I wrote to the dealership:

    You are quite correct that you have the right to offend those of
    us who disagree with you. I am not particularly offended, but might I point out that since you and I both have the right to speak freely that it is at a minimum hypocritical for you to demand that I “sit down and shut up.” If you are Christian as you claim, you might want to examine these not so Christ-like behaviours in yourself. He had a few choice words to say about those who say one thing and do another.

    You do indeed have the right to offend. You have the right to say whatever you want. Having the right to do something does not make it the right thing to do. For myself I have many Christian friends, and I am very careful to be polite and supportive of their beliefs. They do know that I am not a beliver. We have often had friendly arguments about faith and reason. Not one of them have ever told me to “sit down and shut up.” I think they would be offended by your ad as well. Consider that. 86% may believe in God, but that doesn’t mean 86% will be on your side. I think you have likely offended far more than 86% of the people hearing this ad. To be honest, I don’t think Christ himself would agree with you on this. Check out Matthew 6 verses 1-8.

    Please… Take down your ad. I don’t blame you for being anrgy with unbelievers. But think carefully about how your attitude reflects on your faith.

    Thanks for taking the time to listen.
    I appologize for the length. I hope earnestly you can understand where I’m coming from.

    Peace on Earth,

    Karl Otterson

  35. #35 Peter Ashby
    May 26, 2008

    You can buy a Skoda, the fatory in Plzen (still there, I’ve seen it) was used to build the Mark I & II panzers it did so under duress after Czecheslovakia was annexed. All the taxis around here are Skodas.

  36. #36 Dan
    May 26, 2008

    So, I suppose when their business starts tanking (if it already hasn’t with things being what they are today), they are setting themselves up perfectly to caterwaul about the ubiquitous Christian Persecution&trade to score some martyr points, huh?

  37. #37 Facehammer
    May 26, 2008

    I think the closest the UK’s ever come to this would be Reg Vardy, who I think runs some sort of massive auction house for knock-off second-hand cars. He poured some of his not inconsiderable wealth into a private christian school and tried – and completely failed – to encourage the government to teach intelligent designism in science classes.

    I will have to decide within a couple of years between a Ford Focus and a Honda Civic Type-R (up to 05; I don’t like the new one quite as much, cool though it is). This has swung me the tiniest bit more towards the Type-R. In either case, yes, there will be additional big speakers and other such nonsense.

  38. #38 SC
    May 26, 2008

    I’ll conclude my comment/link jag with a quick reminder: Boston Skeptics in the Pub meeting tonight at 7. More here:

    http://bostonskeptics.wordpress.com/

  39. #39 Hank Fox
    May 26, 2008

    The old jokes about FORD:

    F.O.R.D. = Fix Or Repair Daily. Found On Roadside Dead.

    For Kieffe & Sons, I’ll add “Famously Offensive Right-wing Dealership.”

    I owned a Buick a few years back, and I own a Chevy pickup now, but my general feeling about American automakers since the 70s is that they’re traitors to the American ideal of excellence.

    Back then, if you got 100,000 miles on an American car, it was tribute to your extreme diligence in babying it along, and not to the quality of the car. If you got a Toyota on the other hand, you could drive it like a tank and it would still get 100,000 and more as a matter of course.

    Rather than immediately tool up for the same level of quality or better, Ford, Chevy, etc. went whining to Congress about slapping tariffs on Japanese imports, all the while trumpeting their own “American made” labels. Even with the tariffs, the imports started to cut into their market share like a forest fire.

    Even today, I still see lots full of gas-sucking SUVs on car lots instead of the small, fuel-efficient cars. Like nobody could foresee high gas prices.

    A pox on the lot of them. But now Ford especially seems like a bunch of Bill-O’Reilly-type jackasses undeserving of those broad-minded customers who don’t fit Kieffe’s closed-minded small-town-hicks approach.

  40. #40 Rose
    May 26, 2008

    Ford’s misogynistic “Ride it like a Ford” campaign from a couple years ago effectively destroyed any shred of respect I had for the company.

  41. #41 Hank Fox
    May 26, 2008

    Ahem. “… I still see lots full of gas-sucking SUVS instead of …”

  42. #42 rrt
    May 26, 2008

    Aww, Facehammer, you don’t know what you’re missing! Unless, of course, you do. :) I’ve been driving the North American Type R (the Si) for a couple years now. I’m not too clear on just how different those models are under the admittedly radically different bodies, but if they’re similar, I’d say go for it. Love mine to pieces. Frankly, I wish I could get yours over here, as I prefer hatches.

  43. #43 PZ Myers
    May 26, 2008

    True confession: I’ve had a lingering affection for Ford because they were my father’s favorite car. He was an auto mechanic, though, and he liked tinkering with cars.

    I’m tepid on the subject of boycotting Ford, though, because American auto makers lost me long, long ago, and it’s not as if their bigotry could be a significant factor in steering me away. When I’m shopping for cars, what I want is something small, fuel-efficient, and utilitarian — the opposite of what Detroit is building. What I want next is a tiny little two-seater commuter car.

  44. #44 Kim
    May 26, 2008

    Why buy a bad car in the first place. I think the ONLY reason Ford is still selling cars is that they give the impression that it is ALL AMERICAN! because quite frankly, they would not have a snowball chance in hell if they were not.

  45. #45 Hank Fox
    May 26, 2008

    My email to Kieffe & Sons ( ksf@kieffeandsons.com ):

    Good luck with that “sit down and shut up” promotion.

    You just convinced me I’m not a Ford man. And that you’re not very good Americans.

    My advice: Listen to a little less Rush Limbaugh, and read a little more about the founders of America, the radicals who sparked the truly radical American ideals of inclusion and fair-mindedness.

  46. #46 BAllanJ
    May 26, 2008

    I always buy used cars (well, OK, I bought new once…a Subaru…never again) I’m driving a Hyundai…not aware of their political history re fascism… quite popular here in Canada… and my son drives my older Corolla that’s now well old enough to vote (turns 20 this month…the car that is)

  47. #47 Great Omnipotent Tigger
    May 26, 2008

    Who has heard this on the California airwaves? I live far away from there, so all I’ve heard was a sound file that might have been recorded from the radio, or produced to sound that way.
    I associate the phrase “sit down and shut up” with a famous Bush 41 press event — could this be an anti-Republican hoax?

  48. #48 wazza
    May 26, 2008

    PZ: ever thought of getting one of those big two-seater touring motorbikes?

    You know the ones, like in-line roofless cars with two wheels?

    Two-seater, fuel efficient, fair-sized luggage capacity…

    and nothing says bad-ass like turning up on a motorbike of any kind.

  49. #49 wazza
    May 26, 2008

    GOT: This aggression will not stand!

    how’s that for a Bush the Elected quote?

  50. #50 SC
    May 26, 2008

    OK – one more comment. The MIT museum last month had an interesting exhibit about “CityCars.” Hard to imagine them in the snow, but…

    http://cities.media.mit.edu/projects/citycar.html

  51. #51 castletonsnob
    May 26, 2008

    First, my city council in Lancaster, CA, votes unanimously to have “In God We Trust” prominently displayed on the back wall of council chambers, and now a dealership in Mojave, a small town just “up the road,” does this?

    It’s really time for the godless around here to get organized! If you are a resident of Lancaster, the Antelope Valley, or anywhere in the area and would like to work together on these and other issues, please contact PZ for my email address. Is that all right with you, PZ?

  52. #52 raven
    May 26, 2008

    Speaks for itself. Ford like all the original US auto makers is in big trouble right now.

    Ford cuts N. American production, cuts profit goal
    AP via Yahoo! News – May 23, 5:23am ET

    Fast-rising gas prices claimed their latest victim Thursday: Ford Motor Co., which dropped its goal of becoming profitable by 2009 and said it will cut production of trucks and sport utility vehicles through the rest of this year. It was a warning shot to the rest of the beleaguered U.S. auto industry, which is facing its worst sales in more than a decade.

    Ford is fighting for its survival and may go the way of Nash, Rambler, and Packard. The Mojave dealership may end up in trouble as well.

    This isn’t the first time the US auto industry has gotten caught by high oil prices. The predictions for peak oil have been out there for decades and having a plan B would have been prudent business. While they were selling their trucks and SUV’s, they could have been engineering and tooling up a gas efficient car for the era when gas is selling for $4.00/gallon. Or for the era when it is selling for $8.00/gallon.

  53. #53 omar ali
    May 26, 2008

    By itself, it wont make a big difference in their business one way or the other. the number of people who make major spending decisions based on such things is rather small.
    Its a good opportuntity to try and embarass Ford though.

  54. #54 Eamon Knight
    May 26, 2008

    Funny, and I was in Mojave just the other week (wind-turbine pix coming soon to my blog!), and I must have driven past this dealership — it’s not that big a place. I was, however, driving my MIL’s Mercedes, and I have only ever owned half a Ford (ie. Nissan Quest).

    But speaking of Mercedes: PZ, are Smartcars available in MN? They seem to be the popular econo-car in Ottawa (but not in LA, where we saw a Prius every block, but nary a Smartcar, even at Merc dealer lots).

  55. #55 Spook
    May 26, 2008

    So this guy is defending his bigoted nonsense by flying the flag of free speech and telling us to shut up?

    Classic.

  56. #56 Marc
    May 26, 2008

    I think this should be brought to the attention of non-Christian religious communities and disseminated as widely as possible. Somehow the fact that “86% of Americans say they believe in God” means that “86 out of every 100 of us are Christians,” and by logically flawed implication all non-Christians should “sit down and shut up.” Ford might be able to disregard the concerns of the atheist and agnostic communities, but would probably be less willing to ignore outrage from across the religious spectrum.

  57. #57 Jim Thomerson
    May 26, 2008

    The ad is so poorly written that I am unsure what it says. Is it possible he is telling the 14% to come on in and buy a car?

  58. #58 Kseniya
    May 26, 2008

    Kieffe, you gabbling limpet!

  59. #59 False Prophet
    May 26, 2008

    #9:
    Fiat was one of the world’s first corporations to get on board with international fascism, building military aircraft and tanks for Mussolini’s forces (Bosworth’s Mussolini’s Italy).

    Incidentally, who’s boycotted telecoms based on the wiretapping scandal?

    #11:
    Mike, your friend Mickey is probably better off losing their business. Every person I know who’s worked in hospitality says it’s a truism that evangelicals/Mormons/JWs are lousy tippers. I think slacktivist mentioned that as well.

    #43:
    PZ, you want a smartcar. Two seats, fits in your pocket, and gets around 40 mpg. Though it’s sold by Mercedes…

  60. #60 Pablo
    May 26, 2008

    How Christian of them.

    When I see crap like this, it reminds me of the bible. In particularly, Matt 25:40

    “The King will reply, ‘I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.’”

    (actually, it reminds me of the song we used to sing in church, but that was based on the bible)

    So even if we accept their position that atheists are the scum of the earth, the bible is very clear that they are supposed to be treated well. In addition to Matt above, there is also

    Luke 6:35
    “But love your enemies, do good to them, and lend to them without expecting to get anything back. Then your reward will be great, and you will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind to the ungrateful and wicked.”

    and

    Matt 5:43-48
    “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy. But I tell you: Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be sons of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your brothers, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect.”

    Telling the uppity atheists to “sit down and shut up” is a blatent disregard of the teachings of Jesus. (I won’t even hold them to Jesus’s instruction to provide no-interest financing!)

    If anyone is thinking about writing them a letter, I recommend including bible versus.

  61. #61 andrew
    May 26, 2008

    Fucking ford. This is so fucknig sad. FUCK!

  62. #62 Tony Popple
    May 26, 2008

    PZ said:
    “What I want next is a tiny little two-seater commuter car.”

    Translation: Mid-life crisis with bright red sports car.

  63. #63 CalGeorge
    May 26, 2008

    “I guess I just offended 86% of the people who are listening to this message.”

    Not me, but he probably offended a few Ford workers who assemble the cars that he sells.

    Does he give a shit about them?

  64. #64 David
    May 26, 2008

    Just sent the following to Ford:
    ____________________________
    You apparently have a dealership in Mojave, CA called Kieffe & Sons Ford (with another location in Rosamond). They have seen fit to include the following verbiage in one of their recent ads:

    > “But did you know that 86% [...snip...] by the grace of God, we’ll be here tomorrow.”

    You can hear it here: http://www.mediafire.com/?g1f492lbruy

    Now, I live far, far away from Mojave but I have to tell you that, as an atheist, this type of invective casts a pall for me over *any* Ford dealership or product. I would be curious to learn if the corporation is counseling its dealership on the inadvisability of throwing 22% (not 14% as he seems to think) of his potential customer base under the bus, /a priori/.

    We currently drive a 2004 Volvo S60R. It’s a great car but we are very careful about which companies we do significant business with. And quite frankly, the products are not so well differentiated that the social attitudes of the companies who produce them are relegated entirely to the background….

    Thank you for your consideration,
    –David
    (reply here for other contact info if desired)

  65. #65 decrepitoldfool
    May 26, 2008

    My letter to them:

    Secularists oppose using government money to promote religion, but have no problem at all with private (in the sense of non- publicly funded) expression of religion. They’re not telling YOU to shut up.

    Remember Jesus told a parable about a man who went out of his way to help others; a Samaritan, definitely a hated minority of the time. Pretty tolerant guy, that Jesus.

    Recently I saw a Ford ad which proclaimed that the new Focus “is now equal in quality to Toyota”. My son and I looked at each other, laughed, and said; “So why not just buy a Toyota?”

  66. #66 John C. Randolph
    May 26, 2008

    A wonderful thing about free markets is that it makes it possible for people to cooperate without subjecting each other to ideological examinations.

    The proprietor of this dealership is an incompetent businessman. This creates an opportunity for a competitor with a more inclusive attitude towards his customers.

    -jcr

  67. #67 ShemAndShaun
    May 26, 2008

    #44

    I think the ONLY reason Ford is still selling cars is that they give the impression that it is ALL AMERICAN!

    Funnily enough, over here in Europe, Ford have done quite a good job in convincing us that they are definitely not selling us American cars. Most of their cars are small, economical and in my experience, reliable. The Focus has been very popular.

  68. #68 John C. Randolph
    May 26, 2008

    Incidentally, the reason that I won’t buy a Ford product is the incompetence of the designers of the venturo-carb in my ’78 mercury marquis. That carburetor cost $1800 to replace when it failed, but I could have bought a standard four-barrel to replace it for a mere $800. This replacement was made necessary because a rubber part inside it failed, and there was no way to replace just that part.

    Looking at Ford’s stock performance lately leads me to believe that they haven’t gotten their act together in the twenty years or so since I abandoned them.

    -jcr

  69. #69 Johnny Cache
    May 26, 2008

    Perhaps some freethinkers living in the surrounding areas can don their EvolveFish or Rational Response Squad gear and go to this dealership and take a few test drives. Maybe a negative reaction from the dealership owners may get some press attention and show these people for the bigots that they are.

  70. #70 OctoberMermaid
    May 26, 2008

    “None of us at Keiffe & Sons Ford are afraid to speak out.”

    Yeah, none of them at Keiffe & Sons are afraid to speak out because they just admitted they’re in the majority, speaking the apparent popular opinion.

    That’s just, you know, wow. Such bravery. That’s courage under white hot fire of peer approval. I’m sure their necks redden at the very thought.

  71. #71 Santiago
    May 26, 2008

    I couldn’t resist the temptation:

    To Messrs Kieffeandsons:

    I would just like to share my opinion on the ad that your dealership recently aired, concerning the “14%” in the US who are not christian, which, as I understood from your ad, are not welcome in your dealership.

    My only thought is, why? Would you really admit to be the virulent anti-semite that you come across as in your ad? Or how about anti-budhist, anti-islam, anti-hindu and, indeed, anti-atheist? Because, when you defend christian prayer, christian gods in your pledge, and christian trust in your currency, you are effectively signaling to all these groups that they are second-class citizens.

    Does this not remind you of the way Nazi Germany’s business people refused to service jews? Or of how blacks were not allowed into almost any white-owned business until only recently in your own country? Do you not realize what “shutting up the minority” really entails, what its consequences could be?

    You mention free speach in your ad, and you are correct, you have every right to voice your oppinion, whatever that might be. But I would remind you that there are other rights enshrined in your constitution that should carry the same weight, and among them is freedom of (and from) religion, the right to choose to believe (or not believe) in anything you desire, without fear of reprisals or persecution, a right that, it would seem, you do seem to be trampling on.

    Kind regards,

    Santiago

  72. #72 danley
    May 26, 2008

    Two words: Alan Jackson. One word: Gawwwwwdamn!

  73. #73 Beowulff
    May 26, 2008

    #67: that’s because the cars that Ford sells in Europe are designed in Europe, for Europe. And they have to compete with the Japanese and European cars that were designed for Europe.

  74. #74 Mooser
    May 26, 2008

    But did you know that 86% of Americans say they believe in God?

    And that statement is categorically correct. They “say they believe in God”. But they don’t, and they ain’t gonna start. It’s just something they feel compelled to say.
    Why must they humiliate themselves that way? Holy Shit, what kind of chump are you if you can be intimidated that easily?

    Never, never make that mistake! If someone has the sheer unmitigated chutzpah to say they “believe in God” for Christ’s sake, don’t start debating His existence, ask them to prove they believe in Him. Wishing He existed is not the same as believing in God. And neither are halucinations.

  75. #75 Ron Hager
    May 26, 2008

    I wonder how many “Christian” churches in Mojave will have a sermon condemning this hatred? My guess is none.

  76. #76 Nemo
    May 26, 2008

    “Sit down and shut up”… “freedom of speech”… so much cognitive dissonance, it hurts.

    On the bright side, I don’t think they’d be running this ad if they weren’t feeling the heat — if they weren’t, themselves, doubting.

  77. #77 Mooser
    May 26, 2008

    You know, when a guy considers Henry Ford’s long dalliance with anti-semetism and fascism, he would think that Ford Motor Company would want to shut those people right up.
    Do they want all that dragged out?

  78. #78 Mooser
    May 26, 2008

    Notice: They aren’t concerned with people actually believing in God, only with people “saying” they believe. Nor are they interested in converting anybody, just shutting them up if they refuse to adhere to their favorite verbal formula.

  79. #79 DrBadger
    May 26, 2008

    Rather than sending e-mails to this bigot who made the ads, it is probably more effective to send it to TV stations in that area (or directly to Ford).

  80. #80 Pablo
    May 26, 2008

    Someone should go in, get all ready to buy a car, test drive, negotiate the deal and THEN drop the bomb that you are atheist. When you get the “I’ll go talk to my manager” line, say, “Be sure to tell him/her that I am an atheist.”

    Let’s see if the salesperson is really willing to give up their commission.

  81. #81 freelunch
    May 26, 2008

    Businesses like car dealerships are privately owned entities, and so they do have a right to do stuff like this.

    Not completely. Businesses are not allowed to discriminate under federal and state laws. Furthermore, they are required under their contract with Ford to follow both federal and state laws, so they have violated their dealership agreement. Now, of course, the ad was such a badly written ad that they will argue that they aren’t saying that they are discriminating against atheists, just speaking out against them.

    Still, they are fools or businessmen who don’t care about religion at all, but know how to find a mark.

  82. #82 Rich Stage
    May 26, 2008

    Businesses like car dealerships are privately owned entities, and so they do have a right to do stuff like this. But I still think it’s asinine.

    Posted by: Sloan

    Really? According to US law, it would not be legal for them to deny their business to the black population, which would be a similar percentage to atheists. Why is it a right in this instance? Is it because you happen to agree with them? Or am I truly less of a citizen because I believe in one less god than most?

    If this were to happen to any other minority in this country, there would be a frikkin’ HUGE outcry over civil/human rights issues. Why is it okay for nearly 50 million people to be discriminated against?

    This is not asinine. This is dangerous, and should scare the hell out of everyone.

  83. #83 inkadu
    May 26, 2008

    Christian advertising markets are great for things stupid people buy — herbal supplements, crucifixes made from holy rock, book on bible prophecy, and, now, Ford automobiles.

    Makes sense to me.

  84. #84 Dianne
    May 26, 2008

    PZ, you want a smartcar. Two seats, fits in your pocket, and gets around 40 mpg. Though it’s sold by Mercedes…

    Do they sell Smartcars in the US? They are pretty nice if you must have a car. Though I still say that what you really want is a bicycle…and a bunch of bike paths to ride it on. (Ok, this may not work so well in MN winters…maybe you want a winter car.)

    As far as Mercedes goes, Mercedes has apologized and made retribution for their part in the Holocaust. Ok, they didn’t do that out of the goodness of their hearts, but they did it. The taxis in Tel Aviv are all Mercedes. Stop worrying and go for it.

  85. #85 Camop
    May 26, 2008

    Seems a little silly to blame Ford for the deranged ranting coming from a small dealership out in the desert.

    Ford may have been myopic in building mostly huge gas guzzling SUV’s and trucks – but that is what Americans have been buying. With gas at $4 a gallon I see huge single occupant cars and trucks going 20+ MPH over the speed limit and they are in the majority. We Americans may complain about fuel prices but our behavior shows that we really don’t care.

    I’ll bet the dealer who made this advertisement is in full panic and may be looking to fleece a bunch of religious sheep after his business goes belly up.

  86. #86 Duncan
    May 26, 2008

    @#20…

    Here’s what I’d love to see:

    Big cowboy-type strolls into Keiffe & Sons in his fancy street duds and says, “I just won a pile of money and want a new truck.” Grins all around, and Keiffe himself walks the man around the lot. “What’s the BEST truck you got?” asks the Cowboy. “I’ve got the cash on me right now, and I don’t want to drive back home in my old junker.”

    After some tire kickin’ and bullshittin’ they go back to Keiffe’s private office and pull out the paperwork. Cowboy lets Keiffe write everything up, lay out the purchase contract, and then he pulls out his big wallet.

    There’s the scene in Pulp Fiction where Jules gets his wallet back… “It’s the one that says BAD MOTHERFUCKER.” Well, in this case, ol’ Cowboy pulls out his wallet, he holds it so that Keiffe can only see the top edge, ripples all the hundreds with his thumb, and then places it on the desk, still folded. All that’s visible on the outside are the letters “EIST”. Keiffe is wiping the drool off his chin. He wants this sale. Then Cowboy flips the wallet open in full view so Keiffe can read all the letters…. “ATHEIST”.

    “You know,” Cowboy intones solemnly, “I was prepared to drive that F350 off the lot today, but I thought about that ad you just put out. I thought about how many christians there are in this country, and how they put everyone else down because they’re too scared and insecure to wrestle with their superstitions alone. So they group together, like frightened cattle, and when one of them gets bold enough to say something as stupid as your damn advertisement they know they can scamper back into the herd for protection if someone else calls bullshit on them.”

    “Well you, Mr. Keiffe, can just run back to your safe little herd, and keep making your big pronouncements about how someone like me doesn’t *deserve* to buy a vehicle from your establishment. And I’m gonna take this $40,000 to someone who doesn’t pass judgment on a man because of his religious beliefs or lack thereof. Good day, sir.”

  87. #87 Krystalline Apostate
    May 26, 2008

    A car dealership refuses to sell cars to people based on ideology?!?!?
    Batshit insane is what comes to mind.

  88. #88 Duncan
    May 26, 2008

    @Pablo – we had the same idea…

  89. #89 Wayne Walker
    May 26, 2008

    Here is a youtube version:

    http://youtube.com/watch?v=oTWBKRTv4mM

  90. #90 Matthew Tardiff
    May 26, 2008

    This is sad.

  91. #91 Richard
    May 26, 2008

    For an additional $1800 you can upgrade to our Sporty Jesus package, which includes holy water dispenser, Last Rites(tm) airbag, and Wood of The True Cross(tm) detailing on the dash and door panels.

    Additionally, on this year’s models, obstacle sensing warning alerts can also be set to warn you only if the person standing behind you is Saved; why stop for some dirty heathen who will likely sodomize your dog?

    Buy now and we’ll throw add in the Humility Package on all coupes; featuring zirconium encrusted spinning hubcaps as well as the Blind Faith(tm) chrome detailing.

  92. #92 MarshallDog
    May 26, 2008

    It’s a shame… I drive a Ford Taurus, although I bought it through a Nissan dealership, so I don’t think Ford got any of my money. It was the best car I could afford, and my family has had good luck with the Taurus. Too bad they don’t really make that car anymore, because I probably would have bought another… in another ten years when I wear my current one out. I’ll see how things look then.

  93. #93 mn_monkey
    May 26, 2008

    My email to Keiffe and to Ford (sales & advertising division).

    With regard to your recent radio ad (transcript listed below) I’m curious if you have actually read the entire First Amendment? You are asking all of us (using your First Amendment right) who do not believe the same as you to curtail three of our First Amendment rights (“… sit down and shut up …”; allow our government to respect an establishment of religion; do not petition the Government for a redress of grievance). I will never ask you to curtail your right to free speech. But I expect the same treatment from you, even if I am not a member of your 86%.

  94. #94 Monado
    May 26, 2008

    Honda or Toyota give you a well-engineered product with lots of resale value.

  95. #95 Pierce R. Butler
    May 26, 2008

    Ed Darrell @ # 15: … they get calls for boycotts from Focus on the Family-type groups.

    Specifically, from the American Family Association, whose head honcho Don Wildmon regularly implies that his crusade is responsible for most of Ford’s present business woes (“It appears that Ford is willing to continue its support of the homosexual agenda even if it means going into bankruptcy.”).

    AFA “suspended” its Ford boycott in March ’08, claiming that Ford had agreed not to support any gay-related groups or ads; sales have not exactly rebounded.

    AFA (aka Always Fearful Americans) started out as an anti-”indecency” project, expanded into anti-choicery, and now emphasizes anti-gay themes. Their greatest success has been the plastic screens now placed over Cosmopolitan and other titillating women’s magazines on some supermarket & convenience-store display racks. The bulk of their paid staff consists of the Wildmon family.

  96. #96 David
    May 26, 2008

    So, if 86 out of every 100 Americans say something, then it must be more important and true because it is the majority opinion? Just because most people say something makes it outweigh all other viewpoints? That doesn’t seem like a very good argument. In any field of science, should we only care about a hypothesis if 86 out of 100 scientists agree that it is worth while? What if it is new and we need more testing for it, there is skepticism about it, but it may hold promise? It’s only worthwhile if most scientists or people believe it to be? It seems that, if we used that rule of thumb, then we would be in deep trouble in terms of new scientific discoveries. I’m sure that other people could think of other counterexamples too.

  97. #97 raven
    May 26, 2008

    Keiffe and co are just stupid.

    Sure the 14 or 20% non god botherers will be offended and not patronize the place.

    So will the moderate Xians, the majority in California, who think this company is a bunch of bigoted idiots.

    So will anyone who thinks Keiffe Ford is run by morons for openly and gratuitously insulting a segment of the population for no reason. Nothing personal, but do you really want to risk bad service and incompetent management for a major and expensive purchase?

    They are just confirming a stereotype, not uncommon and getting more common. Xian=moron

    This is so senseless that my best guesses.
    1. Keiffe and sons has an advertising executive who is deep into substance abuse.

    2. Or, they are in trouble due to changes in the vehicle market and Ford’s problems and are going bankrupt and have little to lose. Xian fundie Kamikazes.

  98. #98 Pat McComb
    May 26, 2008

    I just sent this:

    Dear Kieffe & Sons Ford,
    CC Ford Motor Co.

    I grew up in Dearborn, MI. I attended Henry Ford Community College, worked at Henry Ford Centennial Library, spent countless afternoons at Greenfield Village and my first car was a Crown Victoria.

    This is the first time I’ve ever considered avoiding Fords.

    I just heard the radio ad from Kieffe & Sons Ford. In the name of free speech, it tells me to shut up. The audio is available here: http://www.mediafire.com/?g1f492lbruy

    According to the Pew Forum on Religion & Public Life, the fastest growing religious group in America is no religion at all. If we ever become a majority, it would be wrong for nonbelievers to start telling believers to “shut up” out of sheer force of numbers.

    Telling people to “shut up” is against the American spirit.

    The practice of targeting a minority to gain favor with a majority is pernicious.

    Also, you might want to get to know some atheists. You will likely find us to be intelligent, kind, moral and patriotic.

  99. #99 CortxVortx
    May 26, 2008

    What amuses me is the berating of Ford because of the antics of one of its dealers. As if the company as a whole supports that position.

    I’ve owned cars across the spectrum: Ford, Chevrolet, Buick, Mercury, Honda, Datsun — and each had its faults and virtues. Of all, the best was the ’99 Chevrolet Malibu, which had only the alternator and the water pump go out over its seven-year, 98,000 mile sojourn with us. For many people (like a friend of mine), this model was a sour-sucking lemon.

    The second best was my ’78 Honda Accord (my only brand new car), which was a blast to drive, but at 5 years started developing problems that even the dealership couldn’t fix. And, echoing jcr at #68, it had some idiotic designs: The wheel bearings were integral to the brake rotors, so the rotors had to be turned while still on the car. The ball joints were integral to the control arms — costing twice as much to fix. And the rubber bumper on the driver’s door latch crumbled away, so the door would swing open on right turns — no replacement for that for 4 months. (I carved bumpers from blobs of hot wax.) Still, the car lasted for 10 years and 110,000 miles.

    I now have a ’00 Ford ZX2 S/R that has given me no trouble at the 50,000 mile mark. My wife has a ’95 Buick Century with minor problems related to an engine replacement but which still gets 27 mpg on the highway at 65 mph.

    So, lambasting a particular car company because your model was a lemon is pointless because all manufacturers come out with the occasional lemon. (Note: Yes, I know about 1970s American cars; that’s why I got the Honda and my wife got the Datsun.)

  100. #100 Steve Caldwell
    May 26, 2008

    Here’s what I emailed to the dealership and also to Ford through the corporate website:

    Dear Kieffe and Sons Ford,

    I’m disappointed with your promotion of religious intolerance in your recent radio ad.

    Although I don’t live in your area, I heard a recording of the ad here:

    http://www.mediafire.com/?g1f492lbruy

    Yes — you have the legal right to tell non-believers to “sit down and shut up.” But that doesn’t make your actions moral or ethical. Endorsing religious bigotry or any other bigotry to sell cars is profoundly evil.

    I spent my career in the military protecting the Constitutional religious freedoms of all — believer and non-believer alike. And I’m disappointed that you’re using your precious freedoms to promote hatred of others.

    Sincerely,
    Steve Caldwell
    Bossier City, Louisiana

  101. #101 Brownian, OM
    May 26, 2008

    Ah, LawnBoy and Sloan, thanks for the Steve Taylor memories. I first heard “Lifeboat” when I was an impoverished inner city youth and joined the Boys & Girls club. I didn’t know they were a Christian organisation until we went to camp and the leaders played Steve Taylor on the trip out.

    As for these dipshits, don’t they know they just pissed off atheists? Atheists?! We have no morals! We eat babies! And we’re just waiting for our moment to persecute Christians and burn their businesses to the ground!

    Dear Keiffe & Sons,

    I usually reserve such threats for significant enemies of the godless, but by Cthulhu, you shall be eaten last!

    Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fthagn! Ph’nglui mglw’nfah Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn!

  102. #102 Lexcarter
    May 26, 2008

    I just sold my 71 mustang to the nearest junk dealer
    I will never be cought alive in a ford again .haha

  103. #103 Milo Johnson
    May 26, 2008

    Ford is just going to have to melt down all of the Expeditions, Explorers, and enormous pickup trucks they have sitting on their lots anyway. They put most of their eggs in the 12 MPG basket and I’ll honestly be surprised if they manage to survive the next decade.

  104. #104 PZ Myers
    May 26, 2008

    What amuses me is the berating of Ford because of the antics of one of its dealers. As if the company as a whole supports that position.

    Follow the links. The blogger also wrote to Ford, and got a brush off.

  105. #105 Walton
    May 26, 2008

    It sounds like a slightly bizarre advert; I don’t honestly see what belief in God has to do with selling cars. I live in the UK, and I can’t honestly imagine anything like that happening over here.

  106. #106 hoopdeholla
    May 26, 2008

    A lot of “uppity blacks” are Christians. It’s the Holy Spirit that makes them uppity, and a testimony to this generation that is darker than their skin.

  107. #107 Anna Lemma
    May 26, 2008

    Thanks for posting the story PZ. I only have time to post a quick note this morning. I was really surprised at the ad when it aired. I think I sat there with my mouth hanging open while it aired. I’ve never heard anything like it. Rich Orman over at Dogma Free America has also been brushed off by Ford. I thought that Ford was more progressive that this, as in the past they have been supportive of benefits for same sex partners. This really surprises me. When I first contacted Ford,I did not complain or anything, it was just a quick email to inform them of the type of ad their local dealership was airing.

  108. #108 uknesvuinng
    May 26, 2008

    It seems to me that this would be a prime marketing opportunity for any and every other car dealership in the same area as these assholes. “Do you really want to do business with bigots? We at Bob’s Car Lot don’t care about your personal beliefs, we just want to give you a great deal.”

    Does anyone know how much power Ford itself actually has over dealerships? Contacting Ford in large numbers for action against this for some time could get something done, and if not, it’d make interesting national news, given the right spin.

    On a side note: Has the United States ever lived up to the “American spirit?” It seems to me that hypocrisy, bigotry, and oppression have always been par for the course.

  109. #109 Mike
    May 26, 2008

    We should keep in mind here that Ford is a huge operation and I’m sure that “14% “of their employees and executives are also non-believers.

    The dealership should be held accountable and Ford should (and I would not be surprised if they do) issue a statement condemning such bigotry.

  110. #110 bill
    May 26, 2008

    This is my e-mail, cc’ed to Ford:

    Read this on http://undergroundunbeliever.blogspot.com/2008/05/some-exciting-newsabout-ad.html where you said, “But did you know that 86% of Americans say they believe in God? Since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Christians, who believe in God, we at Keiffe & Sons Ford wonder why we don’t tell the other 14% to sit down and shut up. I guess maybe I just offended 14% of the people who are listening to this message. Well, if that is the case then I say that’s tough, this is America folks, it’s called free speech. None of us at Keiffe & Sons Ford are afraid to speak out. Keiffe & Sons Ford on Sierra Highway in Mojave and Rosamond, if we don’t see you today, by the grace of God, we’ll be here tomorrow.”

    Thank you for saying this. One more data point on my thesis that anyone who feels the need to trumpet their christian-ness in business is someone I don’t need to deal with.

    And thank you for making my choice easier when I buy my wife a new car next month. I live in the mid-west, so I obviously wouldn’t have bought from you anyway, but now I can cross Ford off the list. After all, as a licensed Ford dealer, you are one of the faces of Ford, and it’s an unattractive face.

    Would you sell a car to a Jew, a Muslim or an atheist? I’m sure you would, after all, business is business. So their money is okay, but their words aren’t?

    Oh, one last question: what part of “Free Speech” is covered by telling other people to sit down and shut up? Is it only *your* speech that is free?

    signed, William T. Klee, an Air Force veteran

    BTW, I don’t see them saying they won’t sell to non-christians, they just don’t want to hear them say anything. Those wacky christians, gold is good, because it’s 3/4 god. Or is it the other way around?

  111. #111 Sven DiMilo
    May 26, 2008

    You know what? *shrug*
    Being based in Mojave and Rosamond is punishment enough for these idiots.

    I take a back seat to nobody in my love for and personal knowledge of the Mojave Desert. And that’s precisely why I have such complete and total disdain for the towns of Mojave and Rosamond. Oozing fastfood scabs on a once beautiful and functioning landscape.

    What really used to piss me off when I drove through Mojave on my way to some habitat was that on the back of the Chamber of Commerce “Welcome to Mojave” sign was a Bible verse (from 2 Chronicles I believe) that said something like “The Lord sayeth if my people humble themselves to pray I will heal their land.” Fucking assholes!!!! The people that put up the damn sign are the disease of which the land needs to be healed!

  112. #112 BoxerShorts
    May 26, 2008

    I’ve never had any worse lock, quality-wise, with Ford than with any other make. My current vehicle is a Mercury Mystique (a Ford product) with over 100,000 miles on it. It runs great and doesn’t need much maintenance. It’s been well over a year since it’s been in the shop for non-routine maintenance, and that’s not bad by any reasonable standard for a car of its age.

    So I tend to think that Fords aren’t as crappy as their reputation would suggest. But maybe I’ve just had unusually good luck.

    Not that I’m defending Keiffe and Sons or anything. They’re just idiots.

  113. #113 BoxerShorts
    May 26, 2008

    “worse lock” above should be “worse luck.” Damn keyboard.

  114. #114 cory
    May 26, 2008

    Here is another aspect of business intersecting with religious belief:

    “Sierra Trading Post wants to be your first choice for outdoor clothing and equipment. In order to be the best, we follow three simple “We Believe” statements.

    1. That our customers must be given the best possible service.

    2. That we must keep our operating costs as low as possible- to keep your savings as high as possible.

    3. That our business ethics must be consistent with the faith of the owners in Jesus Christ and His teachings.”

    I have bought from Sierra Trading Post and they have been fine to deal with. No problems and they do have good prices.

    They manage to use their faith as a selling point w/o insulting non-believers or the alternately faithed, so I don’t (as a non-believer) find it a problem. They don’t tell anyone to shut up, nor imply that honesty is unpossible without Jeebus.

  115. #115 Aquaria
    May 26, 2008

    Ford is still around?

    Seriously, I’ve been buying my Toyotas from a dealership that shares space with a Ford dealership. A few years ago (2005 I think), the owner must have known what was coming, because he remodeled most of the dealership. Now the Toyota side has the big fancy showroom and repair facility, rather than being shoved off in the corner in the generic, cast-aside building. They take up about 3/4 of the lot now, and Ford is in the older, cast aside 1/4. The Toyota guys can’t sell enough Camrys, Corollas and Priuses; our usual salesman (we’ve bought three cars from him in the past 7 years) cleared over $100K in his first 7 months with the company, and his salary has only soared since then.

    Speaking of the salesman, he told us on his first day that he was very relieved not to be on the Ford side of the house, even if the Toyota guys seemed to be the red-headed stepchildren of the lot (at the time). Yeah, Toyotas being so durable might mean fewer sales, but that Toyotas were made so well, and made to last would mean happier customers = returning customers. Nevertheless, the current gas situation has made him a very busy man. Of course, now, the only reason I can walk into the dealership and see him right away for a new car, rather than needing an appointment, is because I was his very first customer. He always finds time for me! I’d really like to get one of the Camry Hybrids… Hm… They’re open today!

  116. #116 Brian X
    May 26, 2008

    We have a family friend who is a compulsive forwarder and something like a quarter of his forwards (maybe more, I seldom read them unless they involve family pictures) involve political statements of this sort. He seems like a pretty reasonable guy in person, but you’d think he was a total wingnut given the number of things he forwards that include “if you agree, pass it on; if not hit delete” at the end.

    It’s just another data point supporting the argument that people who claim to be “politically incorrect” are just trying to find a way to soften bigotry and anti-intellectual thinking.

    Milo Johnson:

    Oh, don’t worry. They’ll get their bailout. Bad PR for the auto industry, and the Congresscritters want to make sure the campaign funds keep flowing in.

  117. #117 andy
    May 26, 2008

    I used to be one of those who would bash Ford (and other American makes) for their quality, swearing I would never buy one… then in 2006 I decided to give the Ford Fusion a chance (it looked good, and came loaded for thousands less than a comparable Accord or the like).

    It was a great car, and I enjoyed owning and driving it. Then one day it became a victim of human error and the laws of physics (or, theories of physics, if you’re a creationist).

    However, I was impressed enough by its quality – and the fact that I walked away from a violent crash with just a scraped up shin – that I knew my new car would be the 2008 model.

    I take delivery this week of another loaded Fusion, again at a great price.

    So, I’m not clear on all the Ford product bashing, as – at least given their products in the last few years – it seems rather uninformed.

    As for the subject of the post, yeah, the dealer’s an ass. Don’t buy from him. I also wouldn’t consider a not-quite-relevant response from a front-line customer service employee who is probably being coached by a computer with cut-and-paste responses to be the same as being blown off… now, if you phone Ford and they tell you tough luck, atheist, that’d be something different.

  118. #118 Pierce R. Butler
    May 26, 2008

    On second thought – perhaps we should give Keiffe & Sons a break, at least until we hear the whole story.

    Possibly they just had a close encounter with Christopher Hitchens and his hangover.

  119. #119 impressedbyliberaltolerance
    May 26, 2008

    The people that put up the damn sign are the disease of which the land needs to be healed!

    That’s what some people said about the Jews, that they were a disease upon the land. You would have fit right in.

  120. #120 mcow
    May 26, 2008

    I actually think that this is in some ways helpful in the long run. Moderate religious people (i.e. reasonable people who just haven’t figured it out yet) tend to really hate this kind of thing, and I think it tends to bring them closer to reason.

  121. #121 Dan
    May 26, 2008

    That’s what some people said about the Jews, that they were a disease upon the land. You would have fit right in.

    Posted by: impressedbyliberaltolerance

    Yawn! The Godwin stuff is getting old. Perhaps if Jews were in the majority, creating policy, legislating morality, etc., you may have an argument. As it stands, you’re pretty much just broadcasting your stupidity and inability to understand that it is the Christians constantly seeking to undermine our nation’s principles of equality time and time again.

  122. #122 Hank Fox
    May 26, 2008

    The people that put up the damn sign are the disease of which the land needs to be healed!

    I think the point of that post was not about any particular sect or race, but that Mojave itself is a blight on the beautiful desert into which it intrudes.

  123. #123 Brownian, OM
    May 26, 2008

    Ah, nothing like professing one’s love of context-free soundbites with a handle like impressedbyliberaltolerance.

    Those conservatives: so witty!

  124. #124 Sven DiMilo
    May 26, 2008

    Thanks, Hank. My beef is with the Mojave Chamber of Commerce, whatever their race, creed, or favorite baseball team. (I’d prefer they keep their creed a little less ostentatious.)

  125. #125 Cuttlefish, OM
    May 26, 2008

    When the rapture sweeps the planet
    I know Heaven’s my reward,
    But for now my piece of paradise
    I bought from Henry Ford

    It’s a broken-down jalopy;
    It’s a rusted piece of junk;
    But there’s Jesus on the dashboard
    And a fishy on the trunk

    Sure, it leaks a little oil,
    And it doesn’t “turn”, but “lurch”,
    Seven miles to the gallon
    But it gets me to my church

    You can hear me from a block away
    And smell last weekend’s skunk,
    But there’s Jesus on the dashboard
    And a fishy on the trunk

    Got a brand-new bumper sticker
    Saying “What Would Jesus Do?”
    Now it’s holding up my tail light
    With some duct tape and some glue

    You can almost hear the “Kieffe and Sons”
    In every “Rattle-Clunk”,
    But there’s Jesus on the dashboard
    And a fishy on the trunk.

    I saw a car that had a fish–
    A Darwin fish, with legs!
    I fixed it, with a wrecking bar
    And half a dozen eggs

    Don’t mess with me or with my God
    You heathen, godless punk–
    I’ve got Jesus on my dashboard
    And a fishy on my trunk.

    http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2008/05/and-fishy-on-trunk.html

  126. #126 Rey Fox
    May 26, 2008

    “Someone should go in, get all ready to buy a car, test drive, negotiate the deal and THEN drop the bomb that you are atheist.”

    I sure hope someone blogs it if they do this. I’m not near SoCal enough to buy a car there, nor am I in the market for a new car, but I’d love to see if these guys would really put their mouth where their money is.

    “Do they sell Smartcars in the US?”

    They sell them just down the road from my apartment in Boise, Idaho, in fact.

  127. #127 Tom
    May 26, 2008

    Like #10 above (and maybe some others, forgive me for not having read every comment), I am impressed with the bravery of those at Keiffe & Sons to speak out in favor of the overwhelming majority. Truly heroic on this Memorial Day. Most of the letters to the editor in the local rag are kind of like this ad: “I know it isn’t politically correct, but I don’t believe in spitting on the flag” etc.

  128. #128 ed
    May 26, 2008

    Why are they wasting their money on ads? Just pray to the Ford fan in the sky and watch the faithful come flocking in.

  129. #129 the puzzled ibex
    May 26, 2008

    You probably won’t see a Saab dealership trying this.

    But, yes, pretty funny to see the “shut up” and “free speech” thoughts placed so closely together.

  130. #130 ExoditeTyr
    May 26, 2008

    I think someone needs to sneak into this lot at night and slap a load of Darwin fish sitckers on the back of every vehicle… Should help to offset sales to his ‘base’…

  131. #131 JStein
    May 26, 2008

    The only thing that bugs me is that having a link on PZ’s site is probably the best advertising they could get. We really are giving these assholes free publicity.

    Personally, though, I’ll be writing to Ford about it.

  132. #132 Paul A.
    May 26, 2008

    “…86% of Americans say they believe in God? Since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Christians”

    Eveyone who believes in god is a Christian? The Jews, Muslims, Hindus, ect are going to be surprised.

  133. #133 Kenny
    May 26, 2008

    Well they should be allowed to profess their faith but they should not be allowed to discriminate. The discrimination is the part that is not right.

  134. #134 Kenny
    May 26, 2008

    >Talk about close-minded.

    Well that is true, but it is a thousand times more closed-minded in this forum. An open-minded atheist is an oxymoron. Atheism is ONE OF THE MOST close minded cults out there. I have to confess it doesn’t get anymore closed minded in my opinion.

  135. #135 Dan
    May 26, 2008

    Equality really does seem to be a foreign concept to a lot of Christians.

    Actually, now that I think about it, their religion actually encourages inequality and rewards prejudice, doesn’t it? They’ve got this whole “I’m better than you because my sky-daddy tells me so” mindset which makes them believe they’ve got the license to tell everyone else how to live and what to think.

  136. #136 David Marjanovi?, OM
    May 26, 2008

    Hi, Kenny! Please come to the “A weird poll to crash” thread.

  137. #137 Brownian, OM
    May 26, 2008

    Well that is true, but it is a thousand times more closed-minded in this forum. An open-minded atheist is an oxymoron. Atheism is ONE OF THE MOST close minded cults out there. I have to confess it doesn’t get anymore closed minded in my opinion.

    Says the man who has never read the Vedas.

  138. #138 David Marjanovi?, OM
    May 26, 2008

    Or explain it right here: What is there closed-minded about being atheist? Is it not accepting NDEs as evidence because, for example, some NDEs are Muslim rather than Christian?

  139. #139 Adria
    May 26, 2008

    Another poll to crash – on this topic! The question is, ‘Bigotry or Straight-Forwardness’? Bigotry is winning by about 64%. (An add pops up when you hit ‘vote’ but you don’t need to register, just close the ad).

    http://www.pollsb.com/polls/poll/13702/kieffe-sons-ford-dealership-radio-ad

  140. #140 michel
    May 26, 2008

    remember that state representative a while back (michigan if i remember correctly) who told an atheist to shut up?

    apparently somebody on the richarddawkins.net forum send that to keith olbermanns show and a few days later that lady was ‘worst person of the day’, complete with the actual quotes. her bigotry was out in the open, for the whole nation to see.

    couldn’t somebody in america (i’m from the netherlands) bring this ford dealer under olbermann’s attention? who knows they’ll get what they deserve.

  141. #141 BoxerShorts
    May 26, 2008

    Kenny! We missed you! And your ridiculous “opinions!”

  142. #142 Kenny
    May 26, 2008

    >Is it not accepting NDEs as evidence because, for example,
    >some NDEs are Muslim rather than Christian?

    People keep bringing this up and I have seen no evidence of this at all. Atheists are going to bring this up for denial purposes. Deny everything that does not fit into the atheists world view.

    All of the NDE’s that I have read about have seen a light brighter than anything in life so bright it would consume them and that light is pure love.

    Of course if you can’t see this light in person and mesure it, it does not exist or we try to explain it with silliness. Oh it was your brain making the light. uh no!

    I see atheists here that don’t believe everything in science either, if it ONLY fits their world view. How can you be objective with that? How is that not ignorance?

  143. #143 Brownian, OM
    May 26, 2008

    All of the NDE’s that I have read about have seen a light brighter than anything in life so bright it would consume them and that light is pure love.

    Yeah? Well, if the God you believe in is pure love, then how come you’re such a fucking cunt?

  144. #144 MAJeff, OM
    May 26, 2008

    Well that is true, but it is a thousand times more closed-minded in this forum. An open-minded atheist is an oxymoron. Atheism is ONE OF THE MOST close minded cults out there. I have to confess it doesn’t get anymore closed minded in my opinion.

    blah blah blah blah blah

  145. #145 MAJeff, OM
    May 26, 2008

    All of the NDE’s that I have read about have seen a light brighter than anything in life so bright it would consume them and that light is pure love.

    blah blah blah blah blah

  146. #146 Etha Williams
    May 26, 2008

    @#140 michel –

    remember that state representative a while back (michigan if i remember correctly) who told an atheist to shut up?

    It was Monique Davis, of Illinois’ 27th legislative district.

  147. #147 Sven DiMilo
    May 26, 2008
  148. #148 BoxerShorts
    May 26, 2008

    I see atheists here that don’t believe everything in science either, if it ONLY fits their world view.

    For the moment I’ll ignore the fallacious use of the word “belief” in that sentence on the grounds that it was most likely unintentional, and simply ask you to quote specific examples.

    You can’t, can you?

  149. #149 Muffin
    May 26, 2008

    “we [...] wonder why we don’t tell the other 14% to sit down and shut up. [...] this is America folks, it’s called free speech.”

    Huh? Are these people stupid or just brazen (or both)?

  150. #150 Etha Williams
    May 26, 2008

    @#142 Kenny –

    All of the NDE’s that I have read about have seen a light brighter than anything in life so bright it would consume them and that light is pure love.

    You mean pure love like this?

  151. #151 woozy
    May 26, 2008

    Hmmm,

    A humorous mixing of religion and public (more overt yet less obnoxious) I saw once was a tow truck in the mountains with the saying “Jesus wants your soul; I want your tow” painted on the side.

    14% don’t believe in God and 86% are Christian who do? As a person of Jewish descent I’m offended he just implied only christian jews believe in God.

    Um, devils advocate here… PZ, haven’t you many times asserted you see nothing wrong with discriminating against religious beliefs? i.e. people choose what they believe and if they choose to believe stupid and ignorant or hateful stuff we have every right to call them on it?

  152. #152 Etha Williams
    May 26, 2008

    Oh, and…

    Kenny, you gabbling limpet!

  153. #153 Kenny
    May 26, 2008

    >Equality really does seem to be a foreign concept to a lot
    >of Christians.

    No, some people take things too far. That is a small amount of Christians.

    >Actually, now that I think about it, their religion
    >actually encourages inequality and rewards prejudice,
    >doesn’t it? They’ve got this whole “I’m better than you
    >because my sky-daddy tells me so” mindset which makes them
    >believe they’ve got the license to tell everyone else how
    >to live and what to think.

    Wow, you just misjudged an entire religion.

    Look, let me try to explain it the best I can. Christians are no better than anyone else on this planet including Atheists. We all Sin, we all do bad things in our hearts.

    Romans 3:23
    “For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God”

    It doesn’t say just unbelievers here, it says ALL people. This is everyone. This is Christians, this is non-christians, this is atheists. All of us have Sinned and have come short of the glory of God.

    “Christ died for our Sins”. 1st Corinthians 15:3

    All of our sins and for everyone who accepts him.

    and all you have to do is call upon the the name of the Lord to be saved.

    Romands 10:13 “Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.”

    That means that no matter who you are, if you call up on the name of the lord that you should be saved and this means really call on the Lord. Not just doing it to be fake, but really trying to seek and find the Lord you will find him.

    So Christians are not any better than Atheists. The difference is that they have called on the name of the Lord to be saved and have asked for their sins to be forgiven.

    Christians are trying to be better in their lives by living the way Christ did, however due to the fact that we are all sinners it is hard but we can ask God for the forgiveness of our sins and be clean.

    I ask for the forgiveness of my sins every night when I pray. I might curse through the day or get angry or think about something I should not be thinking about and I go to God and ask forgivness.

    It is a constant battle for me and all people. We have a sinful nature and it is easy to fall into adultry and all kinds of lust and sins. It is much harder to live for God.

    See we are all going to be judged by God eventually. How much love we put in this world. What did we do in this life to help other people out and what we did to tell others about God.

    Our lives are being recorded and every good thing we have done is recorded and every bad thing. That is that life review you might hear about in NDE.

    Anyway, I have to go to work. Yes on Memorial day.
    You all have a good day.

  154. #154 BoxerShorts
    May 26, 2008

    i.e. people choose what they believe and if they choose to believe stupid and ignorant or hateful stuff we have every right to call them on it?

    Call them on it? Yes. Imply that they are not entitled to free speech (as in, “sit down and shut up)? No.

    I do not, of course, speak for PZ or anyone except myself.

  155. #155 Brownian, OM
    May 26, 2008

    Kenny! We missed you!

    Damn! Stall him while I go find more rotting fruit.

  156. #156 MAJeff, OM
    May 26, 2008

    See we are all going to be judged by God eventually. How much love we put in this world. What did we do in this life to help other people out and what we did to tell others about God.

    blah blah blah blah blah

    Our lives are being recorded and every good thing we have done is recorded and every bad thing. That is that life review you might hear about in NDE.

    blah blah blah blah blah

  157. #157 Sven DiMilo
    May 26, 2008

    please plonk him

    please?

  158. #158 BoxerShorts
    May 26, 2008

    Christians are trying to be better in their lives by living the way Christ did, however due to the fact that we are all sinners it is hard but we can ask God for the forgiveness of our sins and be clean.

    And atheists are trying to improve their lives (and the lives of others) through the knowledge and application of science. Which actually produces real, tangible results. Unlike Christianity, which is nothing more than mental masturbation.

    Science put men on the moon and cured polio. What has religion ever accomplished? And I don’t mean accomplishments written about in some book of Bronze Age myths, I mean accomplishments that actually happened in the non-controversial, historical sense. Can you name a single one that even comes close to the triumphs of science?

    I thought not.

  159. #159 MIkeG
    May 26, 2008

    Jesus, save me!

    There I’ve called upon the name of the lord. So I’m saved. So I’ve got that going for me, which is nice.

    Thanks, Kenny. Have a great day yourself.

  160. #160 ice weasel
    May 26, 2008

    Given the economic depression that is hitting that area particularly hard, these yayhoos will likely have a hard time selling cars to anyone, much less the good jaysus folks in the area.

    Not a good time to be pissing anyone off if you’re in business.

    In Mojave.

    Just sayin’.

  161. #161 Etha Williams
    May 26, 2008

    The Kenny Gabbled:

    I ask for the forgiveness of my sins every night when I pray. I might curse through the day or get angry or think about something I should not be thinking about and I go to God and ask forgivness.

    When I do something wrong, I try to fix it, or if that is impossible, at least do what I can to minimize the damage I cause. There’s no magical being who is going to forgive me and make everything all right — only I can do that.

    See we are all going to be judged by God eventually. How much love we put in this world. What did we do in this life to help other people out and what we did to tell others about God.

    The first two of these (being loving and helpful) are admirable goals…the third, not so much. What kind of petty, psychopathic being would punish loving, helpful people just because they did not acknowledge him or tell others to do so?

    Your god sets us up for failure (sinful nature), punishes failure in a way that has no corrective power (eternal torment in hell), and only lets us avoid that punishment if we kiss his invisible ass (belief and evangelism). What a small-minded, barbaric tyrant!

  162. #162 woozy
    May 26, 2008

    #154.

    Boxer Shorts,

    I probably should have stated this more explicitely. I was responding to the title of this blog “What if they wouldn’t sell cars to uppity blacks, jews {although 14% don’t => 86% are christian seems to imply they don’t believe jews exist}, or women” (although the ad never says they won’t sell cars to athiests, just that they think athiests should sit down and shut the hell up) and the term “bigotry”.

    If, as PZ has stated before and I may or may not agree with, it isn’t bigotry to express opinions against anothers beliefs then we can’t really complain that this is “bigotry”.

    Hypothetical example: There was a silly ad with the non-sequitor “If aliens are so smart, why do they abduct the stupidest people”. Now if I were a believer in alien abduction would I be legitimate in claiming that ad to be “bigotted”? (That’s a rhetorical question. I’m assuming the answer is obviously no.)

    In the “alien abduction” ad the point was to make a joke at a loony-toon phenomenon’s expense. In the Ford ad it’s an attempt to make a good-ole-boy love-it-or-lunk-it homily at the uptight athiests’, slick city folk, whiny liberals, etc, etc expense.

    Anyway, I was only playing devil’s advocate. Bigoted or not it was obnoxious and intolerant, and as a firm believer in free speech I believe we should call them on it.

  163. #163 Dan
    May 26, 2008

    Wow… Kenny stepped down from his little perch of entitlement to address little old me?!?

    My heart swoons…

    Actually, Kenny. If you read what you wrote, you will pretty much see that rather than counter anything I had said, you simply reinforced and supported it.

    Christianity not only rewards you for embracing and creating inequality, your religion thrives on it. You need to believe you’re better than your peers in order to justify your irrational faith. You desperately need your sinners.

  164. #164 Walton
    May 26, 2008

    I must say, I’m not impressed with the way many people on this thread have treated Kenny, the one person voicing a dissenting opinion. (Brownian, OM at #143 calling him a f***ing c**t, and MAJeff at #144, #145 and #152.)

    To clarify, I have nothing but contempt for the car dealership in question; selling cars has nothing to do with belief in God, and using such belief as a marketing device is a tawdry and frankly absurd thing to do. And I don’t argue that atheists should “sit down and shut up”, or that their minority status obliges them to do so. All ideas and belief systems, whether political, philosophical or religious, ought to be open to rational debate and criticism, otherwise their validity cannot be weighed; and the mere fact that a position is held by a minority does not make it valueless. So I agree with the majority opinion as regards the original topic of the thread.

    But I also thoroughly condemn the treatment of Kenny – and, indeed, I see in it a reflection of precisely the same kind of prejudice that underlies the car dealership’s behavior. Just because you are atheists, and believe Kenny’s religious convictions to be irrational, is no reason to abandon rational debate in favour of simply insulting him.

    Criticism and scrutiny of another person’s beliefs can be legitimate, healthy and constructive. Telling them to “sit down and shut up” is not – and neither is calling them a “f***ing c**t” without any rational discussion involved.

  165. #165 BoxerShorts
    May 26, 2008

    @Walton:

    We’ve tried very, very hard to be reasonable with Kenny, but he’s done nothing but repeat the same old debunked crap over and over, while refusing to respond to valid criticisms and questions. And he has an irritating habit of hiding behind the word “opinion” as though it justifies demonstrable falsehoods.

    Many here have given up on him, and I don’t fault them for it. I probably should too, but I’m a slow learner.

  166. #166 Sven DiMilo
    May 26, 2008

    Walton, you don’t know what you’re talking about. People are not reacting to Kenny’s “dissenting opinion on this thread.” Kenny’s been posting the exact same crap on many many threads for weeks and weeks. He never listens to anybody else and is regularly a weird combination of blood-boilingly condescending and head-pundingly stupid. He has richly earned pretty much everything he has received here.
    Really.
    “Your concern is noted, and stupid.”
    -Dick to the Dawk to the PhD

  167. #167 Brownian, OM
    May 26, 2008

    Walton:

    You try reasoning with the fucking cunt.

  168. #168 Lab Cat
    May 26, 2008

    Cory at comment #114

    When I saw that on my Sierra Trading Post catalog I stopped buying from them. I didn’t want to support their business any longer.

    My Dad taught me not to give to religious charities either.

    And, yes, I would stop buying from other firms if I found out that they were openly religious in the same way.

  169. #169 Etha Williams
    May 26, 2008

    @#164 Walton –

    I must say, I’m not impressed with the way many people on this thread have treated Kenny, the one person voicing a dissenting opinion.

    In the case of The Kenny, this Thomas Jefferson quote is particularly apt:

    “Ridicule is the only weapon which can be used against unintelligible propositions. Ideas must be distinct before reason can act upon them.”

  170. #170 Karen Peralta
    May 26, 2008

    Ah, I’m about to cry from joy from seeing so many people discussing this and sending in letters/emails. :D

  171. #171 Karen Peralta
    May 26, 2008

    Oh and to #47:
    “Who has heard this on the California airwaves? I live far away from there, so all I’ve heard was a sound file that might have been recorded from the radio, or produced to sound that way.
    I associate the phrase “sit down and shut up” with a famous Bush 41 press event — could this be an anti-Republican hoax?”

    I have heard this four times on the radio and I am actually the one who recorded it. I actually made a video of the radio and extracted the audio of it. Would you like to see the video for proof?
    This is no hoax. Unfortunately.

  172. #172 Sean LeBlanc
    May 26, 2008

    Anyone read The Shock Doctrine?

    Ford makes an appearance, interestingly enough…

  173. #173 pcarini
    May 26, 2008

    False Prophet @ #59

    Incidentally, who’s boycotted telecoms based on the wiretapping scandal?

    As much as I hate my current telco, Qwest, I respect them for their decision to not aid the illegal wiretapping. When I moved to my current apartment and purchased internet service, it actually did make a difference in my decision.

    Every person I know who’s worked in hospitality says it’s a truism that evangelicals/Mormons/JWs are lousy tippers.

    I live in Utah and I can back up that claim for Mormons, as a generalization. 10% seems to be the maximum, if they decide to tip at all. That said I know a ton of restaurant workers that do rather well here, but they all work at the resorts and other places that cater to tourists.

    —-
    On topic: This ad seems like a move from desperation, if anything. I just don’t see a dealership that’s doing well resorting to inflammatory ads, especially not in The Year of Our Ford 2008*.

    Is there some background to this that I’m missing? Have their been school board creationism scuffles or something else out there that would have this topic fresh in peoples’ minds? This just seems too bizarrely out of left field for there not to be some other explanation… maybe the owner of the dealership had just seen Expelled?

    *Sorry, couldn’t help it.

  174. #174 Hematite
    May 26, 2008

    Kenny:

    I have to confess it doesn’t get anymore closed minded than my opinion.

    Fixed that for ya.

    Also:

    I see atheists here that don’t believe everything in science either, if it ONLY fits their world view.

    Your problem isn’t the atheism, it’s the naturalistic worldview and parsimony which leads to atheism, and also leads to not believing that NDE’s are the Work of God or anything other than the malfunctioning of a near-death brain. Go on, argue against naturalism and parsimony. I dares ya.

  175. #175 Karen Peralta
    May 26, 2008

    Well, recently in Lancaster, CA, the phrase “In God We Trust” has been played on the back wall of council chambers.
    Our mayor, R. Rex Parris, is a dbag who thinks it is the national motto and there’s nothing wrong with it.
    So maybe the Christians out here are feeling invincible and like they can get away with doing whatever they want.
    I hate this place.

  176. #176 Hematite
    May 26, 2008

    Sorry, I mean:

    Kenny you mimsy borogove!

  177. #177 Louis
    May 26, 2008

    I am disgusted at some of my fellow Pharyngulans describing this Kenny person as a “fucking cunt”. Such imagery is not only wantonly misplaced it is a vile and unpleasant slur.

    Not only are cunts one of my personal favourite things in the universe but fucking is one of my favourite activities. Cunts are part of the anatomy of women, wonderful charming beings in their own right, who would no doubt be mortally offended by having such a lovely part of their anatomy compared to anything as odious as Kenny. Not only that, cunts have a point and are useful. A distinct contrast with drivelling theist fuck-knucles like Kenny who are clearly both pointless and useless.

    I can think of no terminology vile enough, and certainly prurient or scatalogical terms are insufficient, for the likes of Kenny. Please don’t sully beautiful cunts by association with his ilk.

    We need a new word, a neologism that not only can encapsulate our contempt for Kenny and his loathesome posse of puerile credulousness, but also our voredom at yet again being confronted by the sanctimonious drivellings of yet another credulous cretin with the eductation and erudition more befitting a houseplant than a human.

    To that end I humbly suggest for the consideration of the masses: Fitbin.

    It was a word used on the cover of Viz comic specifically to irritate the censorious UK stationary/newsagent chain WHSmith. It has no known meaning but is REALLY REALLY rude. Other suggestions are welcome.

    Louis

    P.S. For those who are unaware that a large portion of this post (excepting the segments to do with neologisms) are tongue in cheek, please forward me your mailing address and I shall send you a crisp dollar bill so you can nip to the corner store and buy a fucking clue. Did I swear enough in that post?

  178. #178 Samantha Vimes
    May 26, 2008

    1, We are free to tell other people to shut up. What we aren’t free to do is force them to shut up. What is bothering us, I think, is that there is a certain implication that “With 86%, we *could* pass laws to shut them up.”– and *that* is what would be un-American.

    2. They never said they wouldn’t sell to atheists, agnostics, pagans, and Cthulu or the FSM themselves. We just should, you know, shut up while they are selling us stuff. I find that more offensive. If you hate me, don’t exploit me.

  179. #179 Brownian, OM
    May 26, 2008

    I’d agree with you Louis, but I’m well known for being a fucking dick. ;-)

    For no other reason than I feel like it, I’m going to share an anecdote from one of my coworkers regarding the difficulty of setting others straight on appropriate and inappropriate terminology:

    This coworker had a university acquaintance who was not enough engine and too much block, cranially. This acquaintance also had the habit of describing things or situations she didn’t like as “gay”.

    One day my coworker, who is gay, decided to set her straight, explaining that while she herself wasn’t personally offended, describing unpleasant things as “gay” might bother some as it constitutes a form of bigotry, intended or not.

    The next week, in my coworker’s presence, this girl again said, “Oh, that’s so gay!” Looking at my coworker she realised her mistake and corrected herself with a sincere, “Oh, I’m so sorry. I meant to say ‘Oh, that’s so homosexual!’”

    As Don Adams would say, “Missed it by that much!”

  180. #180 pcarini
    May 26, 2008

    @ 177

    How about noisome puddle of santorum?

  181. #181 Heather
    May 26, 2008

    Thank you, Louis. I agree that that particular word is particularly vile when used to refer to people, which makes no sense as quite a large chunk of the population really, really enjoys the body part associated with that word. So if it’s such a great thing, why on earth would you want to associate it with a person whom you despise?

    I think your new word is fnie. I also think that Ford dealership has gone crazy.

  182. #182 Rey Fox
    May 26, 2008

    “Atheism is ONE OF THE MOST close minded cults out there.”

    What are our minds “close” to?

    “That means that no matter who you are, if you call up on the name of the lord that you should be saved and this means really call on the Lord. Not just doing it to be fake, but really trying to seek and find the Lord you will find him.”

    I DO believe in fairies! I DO! *clap clap clap*

    “Christians are trying to be better in their lives by living the way Christ did”

    HA! You mean walking everywhere? Forswearing worldly possessions? Jesus was a hippie, never forget that.

  183. #183 JeffreyD
    May 26, 2008

    I still do not believe in tossing Kenny in the dungeon, rather, I believe he should be starved into leaving. I think that is a much crueler method of dealing with him and prevents him from claiming martyr status. Just ignore him, read him and laugh, maybe even talk about him to others if you must, but make no attempt to engage him. Most everyone here has been patient with him, far more than he deserves. I regret that I believe him to be beyond “redemption”.

    Ciao, y’all

  184. #184 Kseniya
    May 26, 2008

    Walton:

    Just because you are atheists, and believe Kenny’s religious convictions to be irrational, is no reason to abandon rational debate in favour of simply insulting him.

    You’re new around here, ain’tcha?

  185. PZ, I suggest you offer , for a suitable fee ,to add atheist used car spots to your talk radio patter. Here , in anticipation of a split of the payola ,is some ad copy for you to sing :

    Lord, why don’t you send me
    Some heathens with bling ?
    To buy them a Hummer,or
    Some four-wheel thing ?
    I can’t run my car lot
    On amazing grace
    Lord , help me clear Caddies
    Clean out of this place

  186. #186 Kseniya
    May 26, 2008

    I agree with JeffreyD. Though it has become pointless to engage him, Kenny doesn’t deserve plonking.

  187. #187 Todd
    May 26, 2008

    The dealership is in a conservative part of California (Mojave), and I suspect the area has fewer than 14% in the group they’ve just kicked to the curb.

    I disagree, Mojave and Rosamond are near Edwards AFB which has a lot of scientists and engineers for the Air Force and NASA working there who tend to be less religious. In nearby Lancaster and Palmdale you’ll find several aerospace companies – Lockheed Skunk Works for example. It’s a very high-tech area so, while non-believers are certainly out-numbered, I would not be surprised if it wasn’t as bad as you’d think.

  188. #188 Dan
    May 26, 2008

    Not only that, cunts have a point and are useful. A distinct contrast with drivelling theist fuck-knucles like Kenny who are clearly both pointless and useless.

    Posted by: Louis

    Sir! In your defense of cunts, you have clearly insulted fuck-knuckles everywhere!

  189. #189 MAJeff, OM
    May 26, 2008

    But I also thoroughly condemn the treatment of Kenny – and, indeed, I see in it a reflection of precisely the same kind of prejudice that underlies the car dealership’s behavior. Just because you are atheists, and believe Kenny’s religious convictions to be irrational, is no reason to abandon rational debate in favour of simply insulting him.

    blah blah blah blah blah

  190. #190 Sven DiMilo
    May 26, 2008

    Yeah, but (re Kenny) the starve-him-and-he’ll-go-away strategem assumes that 1) everybody will starve him of response and 2) if starved he’ll actually go away. I have grave doubts about the veracity of both assumptions. There will always be somebody who’s going to respond to the stoopid shit he sez (won’t be me; I refuse to even parodize the guy any more). And do you really think he comes here for dialogue? Actually, why does he keep coming here?
    No, I think he deserves the dungeon for insipidity alone, and now that he’s started in with the full-on proselytizing, I just can’t deal. I don’t care if he’s sincere and means well, I want him out of my life. I would install the killfile if I had the patience and know-how (though then I’d still have to see the posts responding to and discussing him), but since I lack both PLEASE PLONK KENNY!

  191. #191 castletonsnob
    May 26, 2008

    Karen at #175:

    I’m also a resident of Lancaster, CA. If you would like to discuss what we might do about these recent events, please contact PZ for my email address.

  192. #192 Karen Peralta
    May 26, 2008

    castletonsnob:
    Oh, wow. How exciting! I’ll get right on that… When I figure out how to do it. I’m a noob. >> hah.

  193. #193 John Tate
    May 26, 2008

    I’ve just read about your disgraceful advertising tactics. Are you THAT hard up for business? Have you no shame?

    If you found that 90% of your customer base was made up of Satanists, you’d lose your ‘principles’ in the blink of an eye. You’re no Christians yourselves anyway – you’re Mammon-worshipers.. and incidentally, you are giving Christians an even worse name than they deserve, poor sods.

    JT (UK)

  194. #194 Karen Peralta
    May 26, 2008

    Todd (#187), let me guess, you’re not from the Antelope Valley?

  195. #195 john tate
    May 26, 2008

    Ooops! forgot to add that the above post is what I sent to their sales office.

    JT

  196. #196 Sven DiMilo
    May 26, 2008

    JT, what would it take to put you into a shiny new Expedition this afternoon?
    Cashback (sic)?

  197. #197 castletonsnob
    May 26, 2008

    Karen:

    I believe if you scroll to the top of the page and hit the “contact” button, you should find PZ’s email. I’ll send him an email myself right now letting him know it’s okay for him to give you my address.

  198. #198 castletonsnob
    May 26, 2008

    Karen:

    On second thought, just emailing me at moggyusa@yahoo.com is probably a lot easier than going through PZ. Anyone else who lives in the area and is interested in responding to these disturbing events can reach me there, too.

  199. #199 Karen Peralta
    May 26, 2008

    moggyusa@yahoo.com: I just emailed PZ but okay. haha. I’ll email you right now and we can start our evil plotting.

  200. #200 Carlie
    May 26, 2008

    Not only is Kenny spewing nonsense, but he seems to have gotten the Bible confused with John Lennon (an understandable mistake, I guess)

    See we are all going to be judged by God eventually. How much love we put in this world.

    No, Kenny, that’s not in the Bible anywhere, you’re thinking of “And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you made”

  201. #201 Karen Peralta
    May 26, 2008

    I meant to address that to you, castletonsnob, and not your email. Sorry.

  202. #202 wrpd
    May 26, 2008

    My mother ran over my brother with her Ford station wagon. That was in 1956. Since then no one in my family has bought a Ford. The rest of them somehow think that Fords are evil, demon-possessed vehicles which absolves my mother of any guilt for the accident. I always believed that it was just her bad driving. I have never bought a Ford just because I’ve never seen one I liked.
    It was good to hear from the Kenny-Wart again.

  203. #203 Susan
    May 26, 2008

    I was born and raised in nearby Lancaster and can say with some authority– the poetic justice here is that they have to live in the middle of nowhere, surrounded by Mojave. It’s punishment enough, and proof their god hates them.

  204. #204 Susan
    May 26, 2008

    Our mayor, R. Rex Parris, is a dbag who thinks it is the national motto and there’s nothing wrong with it.

    I went to school with that guy (AVJC). If he leaves office without becoming embroiled in some major ethical scandal, I will be very surprised. And if he believes in god, I’m a desert tortoise. Good luck with your campaign; if you need any help, I still have friends and relatives there who I know would be happy to assist. (I’ll forward my email, too.)

  205. #205 r. senatore
    May 26, 2008

    How about sneaking in and placing evolved fish on every car and truck? lol

  206. #206 John
    May 26, 2008

    Notice the “by the grace of God, we’ll be here tomorrow.” I doubt it, and that’s probably the point. I’d bet they know they will soon be out of business, and that all this is just barking at the Jews and Bolsheviks from the bunker. Fail at business and you have to find someone to blame. And why leave any money for creditors when you can buy radio time and have some fun embracing your inner moron?

    No one could be dumb enough to scare off so many potential customers. My mom’s a conservative Catholic. Like most Catholics, I’d think, she wouldn’t do business with these types: it wouldn’t be a bad bet that they hate Catholics even more than athiests. Anyone on the outside at all–Jews, Mormons, Seventh-Day Adventists–is going to avoid these people.

    And is it just me, or does anyone else think the radio station that sold the time and played these ads should have some explaining to do?

    Sadly, as as a native of the Antelope Valley, all this doesn’t surprise me. At least in the old days the local crackpots were colorful, and good for a laugh (remember the Flat Earth Society, headquartered in Lancaster?). As a balm for current residents, I recommend copious amounts of Frank Zappa and Captain Beefheart (that and enjoy the desert), both of whom served time there in their youth. Kind of explains things.

    BTW, I’ve owned three Fords–over 500,000 miles, still going, and not a single issue. Very happy customer, until now.

  207. #207 Kseniya
    May 26, 2008

    “And in the end, the love you take is equal to the love you made”

    I think that was McCartney, actually. ;-)

  208. #208 Frank Wilhoit
    May 26, 2008

    This is the essence of Reaganism: if there are two groups, one of which is SUFFICIENTLY larger than the other, then membership in the smaller group is ipso facto proof of moral delinquency. Reagan’s notion of SUFFICIENTLY larger was probably somewhere around 70/30; this car dealer has timidly backed off to 86/14; and all that G. W. Bush has done is to logically extrapolate to 50.001/49.999 . This is why democracy is odious.

  209. #209 Chris Clarke
    May 26, 2008

    I think the point of that post was not about any particular sect or race, but that Mojave itself is a blight on the beautiful desert into which it intrudes.

    And has been ever since Reno’s closed.

    No point in getting off the new freeway anymore. Food’s better in Boron anyway.

  210. #210 OctoberMermaid
    May 26, 2008

    It’s probably not a good idea to even jokingly suggest we missed Kenny. He’ll probably believe you, poor credulous fella.

    I mean, it’s one thing to come and present your views, listen to opposing arguments and learn from them/adjust your own arguments.

    But.. has he ever really done that? I haven’t seen it yet.

  211. #211 Etha Williams
    May 26, 2008

    Kenny Drinking Game time! The (revised) rules:

    Just the act of making a post — 1 point.

    MY OPINION — 2 points if in response to a question about the ACLU, 5 points if unprovoked.

    NDE — 5 points

    “It is what it is” — 5 points

    Scientists didn’t know the earth was flat/didn’t know about atoms – 5 points

    Pascal’s Wager — 6 points

    “I love science” — 8 points

    M-theory/string theory/quantum theory — 9 points

    Using the Bible to “prove” the Bible — 10 points

    Militant/fundamentalist/etc Atheist — 10 points

    Homosexuality — 12 points

    Atheists are self-centered/immoral — 15 points

    Richard Dawkins — 15 points

    His atheist brother-in-law — 20 points

    “Just google it” (or similar) — 25 points

    Shroud of Turin — 30 points

    Fairly low point count on this thread — just 24 points (and that’s stretching it…counting the “closed-minded cult” as part of militant/fundamentalist atheism, which I think is fair). Anyway, one drink by either mode of reckoning.

  212. #212 Ichthyic
    May 26, 2008

    Kenny doesn’t deserve plonking.

    change your mind about keeping score, Kseniya?
    ;)

  213. #213 CanadianChick
    May 26, 2008

    I wonder if they’re as bad at mathematical logic on their sales contracts as they are in this ad?? 86% believing in god does NOT equal 86% christian…

  214. #214 Ichthyic
    May 26, 2008

    Anyway, one drink by either mode of reckoning.

    *gulp*

    I wonder how it makes Kenny feel knowing that the only purpose his posts serve is as points scoring for a drinking game?

    …that what he says has about as much import as the result of whether a coin tossed onto a table manages to bounce into a glass?

    wait, no I don’t.

  215. #215 Sara
    May 26, 2008

    I love the contradictions in this tiny paragraph…

    “why we don’t tell the other 14% to sit down and shut up”

    and…

    “this is America folks, it’s called free speech”

  216. #216 Ichthyic
    May 26, 2008

    I must say, I’m not impressed with the way many people on this thread have treated Kenny, the one person voicing a dissenting opinion.

    Walton is rapidly becoming tedious, bordering on little more than concern trolling.

    Ignorance doesn’t become you, Walton.

    Moreover, those suggesting Kenny should stay are forgetting the extra effort it takes to explain to the likes of Walton why Kenny is a gabbling limpet.

    With that in mind, I suggest Kseniya take on the role of explaining to those unfamiliar, all abusive, snide, and game-related posts directed towards Kenny until the time of his inevitable permanent departure.

    frankly, I don’t think it fair for anyone to take the effort to bother explaining to Walton (or anyone else) why Kenny doesn’t deserve response to his endlessly repeated nonsense, unless they themselves feel Kenny should stay for some ungodly reason.

  217. #217 Etha Williams
    May 26, 2008

    @#214 Ichthyic –

    I wonder how it makes Kenny feel knowing that the only purpose his posts serve is as points scoring for a drinking game?

    Probably that this is how it starts…the humble beginnings of a massive drunken atheist conspiracy to kill all strong Christians.

  218. #218 Ichthyic
    May 26, 2008

    Probably that this is how it starts…the humble beginnings of a massive drunken atheist conspiracy to kill all strong Christians.

    well, that WOULD fit in with his ever increasing levels of paranoia.

    :p

    I wonder if Kenny is borderline schizophrenic?

  219. #219 snead
    May 26, 2008

    20 years or so ago a car dealership in South Carolina (job transfer–moved away as quickly as we could) ran an ad around xmas time that had a talking head at a desk saying something like, “Merry christmas customers. Jesus was born to save you. Why atheists would celebrate christmas is beyond me.” It’s been a long time, I don’t remember it well, but the general idea was similar.

  220. #220 Spook
    May 26, 2008

    So long as Kenny the Parrot keeps getting crackers every time he squaks, he’ll keep coming back.

    It is very clear that he will never say anything of any value to anybody. He ignores every refutation to his idiocy and just keeps going. Please, let’s simply ignore him until he goes away.

  221. #221 Ichthyic
    May 26, 2008

    Please, let’s simply ignore him until he goes away.

    frankly, based on years of observation, there is essentially zero chance of ignoring trolls on the internet.

    ridiculing trolls, falsifying their conceptions, even pitting one troller against another?

    yes.

    ignoring?

    no.

    they either have to be manually removed, or permanently welcomed.

    one of the reasons I spend time here is because typically, long term and repeat offenders are often plonked to the dungeon, like these fools:

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/plonk.php

    makes for much less distraction and work for the rest of us.

  222. #222 Dan
    May 26, 2008

    ridiculing trolls, falsifying their conceptions, even pitting one troller against another?

    Posted by: Ichthyic

    Now, a troll-fight would be fun. Just imagining it fills me with an odd sort of giddy glee.

    What we need, PZ, is to get Neil the Mad out of the Dungeon and fix him up with Kenny the Limpet. Then, we can give them a thread and watch the fur fly.

    Beautiful.

  223. #223 Ted
    May 26, 2008

    Here’s my response to them:

    Hi,

    I’m one of the 14% of non-believers that your ad says to “sit down and shut
    up”.  I find it ironic that you claim “free speech” to advocate taking away
    others’ right to free speech.

    Your ad really makes me wonder about Christians, that you have to resort to
    hatred and bigotry to make yourself feel good.  Whenever I hear something
    like your ad, it makes me even more certain that I made the right choice by
    avoiding Christianity altogether and living my life rationally.

    Perhaps some day you will ‘see the light’ and learn to live your life without
    the delusion of a mystery ‘sky-man’ watching you.

    Sincerely,
    Ted Treadwell
    Santa Rosa CA

    P.S. Don’t worry, I won’t be buying a Ford ever again.

  224. #224 OctoberMermaid
    May 26, 2008

    “I wonder how it makes Kenny feel knowing that the only purpose his posts serve is as points scoring for a drinking game?

    …that what he says has about as much import as the result of whether a coin tossed onto a table manages to bounce into a glass?”

    At least the coin has some value.

  225. #225 M Taylor
    May 27, 2008

    Here is pic of the Kieffe&Sons Limited Edition Ford Escort:
    http://consumerist.com/assets/images/consumerist/2008/05/godcar.jpg

    I sent them an email and asked if I could get it in blue with white lettering instead. =)

  226. #226 pcarini
    May 27, 2008

    @ #225

    Evolution? The “Fossils say NO!” but the guy in front of the car convinces me otherwise.

  227. #227 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    >And atheists are trying to improve their lives (and the
    >lives of others) through the knowledge and application of
    >science. Which actually produces real, tangible results.
    >Unlike Christianity, which is nothing more than mental
    >masturbation.

    Science is a great thing. I don’t think anyone is going to disagree with you here. I love science and it improve our lives greatly. With all of that though, science is a tool like my computer is a tool. You use tools to improve your lives and people need to support themselves.

    Extreme Makeover: Home Edition is a TV show that can help people and even though it is not religious it shows that people can love and care about other people and try to help them. Helping people that are poor or just need help in any way possible is great.

    >Science put men on the moon and cured polio. What has
    >religion ever accomplished? And I don’t mean
    >accomplishments written about in some book of Bronze Age
    >myths, I mean accomplishments that actually happened in
    >the non-controversial, historical sense. Can you name a
    >single one that even comes close to the triumphs of
    >science?

    This is what you don’t get. It’s not about what trumps what. One is about helping use understand the universe better and reverse engineer everything inside the universe and also helping people through it at the same time. The other with God is more than religion, he is spiritual and it is something that is beyond all of this. However, God wants us to help people as much as we can and give what we have using that love. Basically to break it down we can help people and The Bible teaches that. To help the poor and help people in need.

    There is nothing wrong with science. However, it is only a tool. It is not going to save our planet from creating our own problems. Science can do a lot but we have a lot more problems than that. We are using up fossil fuels and we are creating global warming which is not going to be solved by science alone. Sure we could come up with the perfect answer in science but getting all the humans on the planet on the same page isn’t possible.

    If you are logical and you are reasonable like you say then you should understand that science isn’t going to save humankind from all of its own problems. Even if you took all religion out of the planet you are still going to have insurmountable problems with the rest of humankind.

    Humans create their own problems (yes, even without religion) and science is only going to help humanity,
    not save it.

    God deals with the spiritual things and love and how we should help people and how we should live morally down here on Earth. Science gives us an understanding of physical things and helps us find cures and things for physical matters. Both are different things. Both can be good. Both can be distorted to do bad things as well.

  228. #228 Dan
    May 27, 2008

    Huh… I didn’t know evolution was an adult fairy tale. I mean, I’m totally convinced by that. I mean, if I saw that car tooling down the road, I wouldn’t think that the driver was at all deranged.

  229. #230 Duncan
    May 27, 2008

    @#227

    Man, Kenny, you didn’t even have to duck to have all that sail right over your head.

    Ignorance ain’t just bliss – it’s an entire spiritual universe, population: 86%

  230. #231 Owlmirror
    May 27, 2008

    Hey, what’s this?

    http://www.near-death.com/hindu.html

    Two persons caught me and took me with them. I felt tired after walking some distance; they started to drag me. My feet became useless. There was a man sitting up. He looked dreadful and was all black. He was not wearing any clothes. He said in a rage [to the attendants who had brought Vasudev] “I had asked you to bring Vasudev the gardener. Our garden is drying up. You have brought Vasudev the student.” When I regained consciousness, Vasudev the gardener was standing in front of me [apparently in the crowd of family and servants who had gathered around the bed of the ostensibly dead Vasudev]. He was hale and hearty. People started teasing him saying, “Now it is your turn.” He seemed to sleep well in the night, but the next morning he was dead.”

    In reply to questions about details, Vasudev said that the “black man” had a club and used foul language. Vasudev identified him as Yamraj, the Hindu god of the dead. He said that he was “brought back” by the same two men who had taken him to Yamraj in the first place. Vasudev’s mother (who had died before the time of the interview) had been a pious woman who read scriptures that included descriptions of Yamraj. Vasudev, even as a boy before his near-death experience, was quite familiar with Yamraj.

    Kenny, you’d better convert to Hinduism, pronto. Wouldn’t want to piss off old Yamraj!!!!

  231. #232 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    The Kenny sez:

    God deals with the spiritual things and love and how we should help people and how we should live morally down here on Earth. Science gives us an understanding of physical things and helps us find cures and things for physical matters. Both are different things. Both can be good. Both can be distorted to do bad things as well.

    NOMA is a fairytale, made to appease morons just like yourself. Whether it works tactically or not hardly makes it correct.

    http://www.monkeyblah.com/blog/2007/07/15/noma-an-unsatisfactory-copout/

    as for the rest of your post…

    blah blah blah… love science, blah blah blah… bible proves bible, blah blah blah…

    looks like around a 19 pointer, unless I missed something.

    *gulp*

  232. #233 Kseniya
    May 27, 2008

    Religion seems to be failing to get people to love each other. For millenia it has succeeded in creating artificial divisions between groups of people who defend their boundaries with varying degrees of enthusiasm that range from mildly patronizing tolerance to genocidal zealotry. One cannot point to religion’s role in creating a harmony within homogenous groups that would have happened anyway.

    The goal is admirable, but the underlying premise is incoherent and unstable, and the implementation has been, at best, only sporadically successful, at worst, a horrendous abuse of power. How many more thousands of years do we give it?

  233. #234 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    >When I do something wrong, I try to fix it, or if that is
    >impossible, at least do what I can to minimize the damage
    >I cause. There’s no magical being who is going to forgive
    >me and make everything all right — only I can do that.

    I try to fix it as well. However, I try ask the person’s forgiveness and also God’s forgiveness.

    >The first two of these (being loving and helpful) are
    >admirable goals…the third, not so much. What kind of
    >petty, psychopathic being would punish loving, helpful
    >people just because they did not acknowledge him or tell
    >others to do so?

    I never said he would punish me. If I die right now I would go to Heaven. However, if you do things like Good deeds this will not get you into heaven, but it will get you rewards in Heaven (no not virgins).

    >Your god sets us up for failure (sinful nature), punishes
    >failure in a way that has no corrective power (eternal
    >torment in hell), and only lets us avoid that punishment
    >if we kiss his invisible ass (belief and evangelism). What
    >a small-minded, barbaric tyrant!

    He didn’t set anyone up for failure. I think there are lots of things you are not getting.

    1) He loves ALL people and wants them to come to him.
    2) Hell is not built for humankind, it is built for Satan and his angels.
    3) You have been given free will of making your choice. Choosing to believe in Jesus/The Father or rejecting him.
    4a) If you accept Jesus/The Father you get into heaven and get the ultimate retirement plan.
    or
    4b) If you accept Jesus/The Father and you do good works here on Earth, help people etc. You get to go to Heaven just like 4a, but you get extra rewards.
    or
    4c) If you reject Jesus/The Father, you will be judged and you will probably end up in Hell.

    So let me give you an example of 4c. Okay lets say you or I kill someone. Well here on Earth that was our choice to kill someone or not (saying that it wasn’t self defense for example). We would have to pay for that choice down here right?

    Well the same thing if you reject God. By rejecting God you have made your choice and you will be judged but only when you die. If you decide to change your mind and you accept God, then that all changes and all the old past goes away. You then have accepted God.

    I believe in the Bible of course, but what has really made things even more interesting was when I saw a couple of atheists that came back and told the story of Heaven and Hell and I am not just talking about “Howard Storm” there are some more that really interesting.

  234. #235 Etha Williams
    May 27, 2008

    @#231 Ichthyic –

    looks like around a 19 pointer, unless I missed something.

    I think you got it all. Adding that to the total of the previous posts, we have a 43 point total for this thread.

    Incidentally, in Expelled, one of the IDiots says, in true Kenny style, “I love science.” It made me laugh and cringe at the same time…

  235. #236 Owlmirror
    May 27, 2008

    God deals with the spiritual things and love and how we should help people and how we should live morally down here on Earth. Science gives us an understanding of physical things and helps us find cures and things for physical matters. Both are different things. Both can be good. Both can be distorted to do bad things as well.

    You just shot your own argument in the foot, there. See, if God really existed, and really cared about people, and living morally, then it should not be possible for anyone to ever distort religion. God would have to intervene so that his (supposed) message would never be distorted.

    Instead, we have millennia of religious bickering, splitting and outright murder and warfare. So this supposed loving God never, ever, came to both sides of these conflicts to tell them that they were doing it wrong…

  236. #237 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    >Actually, Kenny. If you read what you wrote, you will
    >pretty much see that rather than counter anything I had
    >said, you simply reinforced and supported it.

    So, because I am TRYING to be like Jesus that makes me better than you? I still sin just like you do. How does that make me better than you? It doesn’t.

    >Christianity not only rewards you for embracing and
    >creating inequality, your religion thrives on it. You need
    >to believe you’re better than your peers in order to
    >justify your irrational faith. You desperately need your
    >sinners.

    So, I just told you that I was not better than you. Just like you learn and try to be up with science. I try to be more like Christ however I am a sinner and a flawed being so I can never obtain perfection like him. Christ was perfect and I am far from it. How does that make me better than you?

    If I am a flawed human being and a sinner just like you, how am I better than you? I just try to do what God wants me to do, help other people out when I can. Be a nice person and follow what he laid out in the Bible.

    You can be a Christian too, there is nothing preventing you from accepting Jesus Christ.

  237. #238 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    However, I try ask the person’s forgiveness and also God’s forgiveness.

    I want The Kenny to ask forgiveness for wasting everbody’s time whenever he posts.

    OTOH, to do that, he would have to post again.

    *plonk*

  238. #239 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    You can be a Christian too, there is nothing preventing you from accepting Jesus Christ.

    you can be an atheist, too.

    there is nothing preventing you from rejecting a life of superstitious nonsense for one based on rationality.

    you’ll be happier, because you won’t have to spend time and energy compartmentalizing all that mindless nonsense from actual reality.

    You can give up living in fear. It really is the way to go.

  239. #240 Etha Williams
    May 27, 2008

    Kenny, I have news for you: for many of us, belief is not a choice. I tried “opening my heart” to Jesus. I very, very much wanted to believe. But it doesn’t make any sense, and I simply couldn’t.

    If your god is one who would punish people for not making a choice they are incapable of making, then he is a petty, self-absorbed tyrant, and I am glad I never worshiped him.

    And please — how is living a good life not believing in god on par with murder?

  240. #241 GS
    May 27, 2008

    @232 (Kseniya)
    Jedi masters are here to help:
    http://www.jedi-church.co.uk/

  241. #242 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    And please — how is living a good life not believing in god on par with murder?

    let me answer for The Kenny, using his own logic based on previous statements:

    If you don’t believe in god, then you will do amoral things. Those amoral things (like homosexuality) will call down God’s wrath on all of us (including The Kenny). So, by not believing in God, you are killing Kenny.

    you bastard!

  242. #243 Brian Coughlan
    May 27, 2008

    So let me give you an example of 4c. Okay lets say you or I kill someone. Well here on Earth that was our choice to kill someone or not (saying that it wasn’t self defense for example). We would have to pay for that choice down here right?

    The only reasons we have that arrangement “down here” are :

    a) Punishment is a potential deterrent to future crime. Both for the perpetrator and society in general. This view is now somewhat disputed, I merely point out the conventional wisdom.
    b) In a society of limitless resources, crime (almost devoid of motive) would be treated as an illness, rather than sensibly motivated behaviour. This trend is clear in most of the developed world.

    Eternal Torment serves no function. It cannot be a deterent (given that it’s just a “theory” in the pejorative witless sense creationists use the word), and it is immoral for an all powerful being to torture creatures (for any length of time) that are merely behaving as It created them to behave in the first place. No nebulous, ephemeral free will concept can get the religious off this hook.

    If “this life” is merely a sort of antechamber to eternity, then we are, in fact, living in a society of limitless resources, we just don’t know it. If we did in fact know, that a life of eternal bliss was waiting around the corner, a rational person would behave quite differently. To “choose” Hell rather than Heaven is an act of utter insanity, should these choices in fact be as you say (how you know this is unclear) they are. Thus even were it true, one could not reasonably hold people that made the wrong choice responsible for their actions. Even fallible, human judges can see that there are sometimes extenuating circumstances, are we to expect less from the all powerful, eternally loving creator of the universe?

    This business about “accepting Jesus or else”, simply sets up an internally incoherent false dilemma which is engineered to push one in the direction of assimilation into the cult. Kenny, it’s merely a clever mechanism to short circuit your rationality. It’s nothing more than an evolved psycological trick, and although it is very successful at what it does, this does not make it real, just depressingly effective.

  243. #244 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    >Kenny, I have news for you: for many of us, belief is not
    >a choice. I tried “opening my heart” to Jesus. I very,
    >very much wanted to believe. But it doesn’t make any
    >sense, and I simply couldn’t.

    What doesn’t make sense. These NDE’s (not OBE’s) from Atheists are rather telling don’t you think and not only that but Quantum Physics are just getting around with the membrane theory that proves there are other dimensions. Now that doesn’t prove that God exist’s on it’s own but it does point to evidence that there are other dimensions and one of them could be the spirit world. People die and when they do have out of body experiences then where is their body? We know people’s souls are made of energy why can’t we see them?.

    >If your god is one who would punish people for not making
    >a choice they are incapable of making, then he is a petty,
    >self-absorbed tyrant, and I am glad I never worshiped him.

    You have already made a choice. When you make fun of not religion but God, he has it recorded for you and all the people around you to clearly see.

    God doesn’t record your life for just him. He already knows what the deal is, but he records it so that when it is shown to you, you will see what you did wrong and what you did right. So when you have rejected him, that is fully noted and you will finally get it then but it will be too late.

    You already said “and I am glad I never worshiped him” thus you have made your choice already.

    >And please — how is living a good life not believing in
    >god on par with murder?

    It’s all about choices. Murder is a choice and that was just used to get you to understand. Not accepting Christ is a choice too and it is one that you have already. I really hope you change your mind before you pass away. I really hope for your sake.

    By the way, I don’t hate anyone on here and would not wish any of you would have a spiritual death (Hell).

    I would much rather have you all in Heaven. :)

  244. #245 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    >Man, Kenny, you didn’t even have to duck to have all that
    >sail right over your head.

    Duncan, how did that sail over my head. I knew what he was talking about. However, his answer was not logical nor reasonable.

  245. #246 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    oh man, there were simply way too many points to count in that last post.

    I’ll just down a sixpack and call it a night.

    oh, and *plonk* The Kenny.

    it’s past time, and I can’t afford to drink like a fish (pun intended) these days.

  246. #247 Kseniya
    May 27, 2008

    We know people’s souls are made of energy

    Yes, for an extremely lenient value of “know”.

  247. #248 SC
    May 27, 2008

    …the ultimate retirement plan.

    Thanks, Kenny. That made my night.

    but it will get you rewards in Heaven (no not virgins).

    or even raisins…

    …but Quantum Physics are just getting around with the membrane theory that proves there are other dimensions.

    Dimensions not only of sight and sound, but of mind…

  248. #249 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    >a)Punishment is a potential deterrent to future crime.
    >Both for the perpetrator and society in general. This view
    >is now somewhat disputed, I merely point out the
    >conventional wisdom.

    Well this as you say is very disputed. Most of the people that do these crimes will do them again. They need to have a heart/life change.

    >b) In a society of limitless resources, crime (almost
    >devoid of motive) would be treated as an illness, rather
    >than sensibly motivated behaviour. This trend is clear in
    >most of the developed world.

    It’s not an illness they know what they are doing. The lawyers want you to think they are ill so they can be set free.

    >Eternal Torment serves no function

    Well, it wasn’t made for humans we know that much. It was made for Satan. It is a place without God and that is what the atheists want, a place without God.

    So, in a way they get they want.

    In my case I want God and I need him. With him I can do so much more than without him.

    Here on this earth I need science. Without it I wouldn’t have power or my computer or my Xbox 360. My wife would be deathly sick without the help of science.

    You have to get over the mentality that people who have faith hate science. Some might want to add in ID in classrooms and I don’t think ID is science either.

    I may not agree with evolution in all aspects but I agree that Intelligent Design is not science and should not be taught in classrooms.

  249. #250 Etha Williams
    May 27, 2008

    @#245 Ichthyic –

    oh man, there were simply way too many points to count in that last post.

    Actually, I think the last two posts total to just 16 points (two for the two posts, 5 for NDEs, and 9 for m-theory/quantum). The rest of the babbling about hell, etc was obnoxious but didn’t seem to fall under any of the point-getting categories, unless we count it as an indirect form of Pascal’s Wager…

  250. #251 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    Etha still didn’t answer my question.

  251. #252 Etha Williams
    May 27, 2008

    @#250 Kenny –

    Etha still didn’t answer my question.

    Which question?

    About what didn’t make sense wrt Christianity?

    It makes extraordinary, unverified claims. The existence of a triune eternal being, miraculous healings, resurrections from the dead (Jesus’ and Lazarus’), etc. The second two of these are acts in which the “supernatural”/god interacts with the natural world, yet there is no natural evidence for them. We have already debunked your NDE “evidence” numerous times. NDEs are best explained as the brain’s reaction to physical and psychological trauma, and they vary heavily depending on the individual’s cultural background (see Owlmirror’s #230.

  252. #253 Etha Williams
    May 27, 2008

    Shorter answer: the bible is internally inconsistent with itself and externally inconsistent with reality.

  253. #254 epsilon
    May 27, 2008

    Etha definitely know what she’s talking about, but Kenny…

  254. #255 clinteas
    May 27, 2008

    *sticks head into thread and looks around*

    Etha–check
    Kenny–check
    The fish–gone to bed,check
    Kseniya–check

    The late nite gang is at it again..LOL
    SOme people have to work !!

  255. #256 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    >It makes extraordinary, unverified claims. The existence
    >of a triune eternal being, miraculous healings,
    >resurrections from the dead (Jesus’ and Lazarus’), etc.
    >The second two of these are acts in which
    >the “supernatural”/god interacts with the natural world,
    >yet there is no natural evidence for them. We have already
    >debunked your NDE “evidence” numerous times. NDEs are best
    >explained as the brain’s reaction to physical and
    >psychological trauma, and they vary heavily depending on
    >the individual’s cultural background.

    1) How can something be verified from 2000 years ago beyond writings from eyewitnesses about it? How can you verify lazurus coming back to life when Jesus raised him except eyewitness evidence and that is provided by the Bible in which you do not believe.

    2) If an atheist has an NDE and meets God which he does not belief, then how on earth do you explain that?

    This is exactly what I am trying to tell you. You have been given a choice, you have been given evidence. You do not accept it and thus you reject it.

    The Big bag had to start somewhere. Something with intelligence had to jump start the universe. The human brain even if it somehow magically evolved from something had to have some intelligence behind it evolving.

    The universe has properties of physics and dimensions and it is irrational to say that somehow this all happened and evolved without an intelligence to jump start and help it evolve in the first place.

    It is Irrational and unreasonable to just throw the baby out with the bath water and think there is no God.

    You have been given a choice, you either accept it or deny it and you have made your choice and once you die there is no going back.

    I am happy that I don’t limit my mind in the way that some people here do. My parents always taught me not to limit my mind and my possibilities. I don’t believe in fairies, but I do believe that there is a God and he believes in you.

  256. #257 Anna Lemma
    May 27, 2008

    I am happy that I don’t limit my mind in the way that some people here do. My parents always taught me not to limit my mind and my possibilities. I don’t believe in fairies, but I do believe that there is a God and he believes in you.

    Wow, the inherent contradiction in the above absolutely blows my mind, as well as double standard applied to the belief in fairies versus the belief in gods.

  257. #258 bernarda
    May 27, 2008

    I have seen this radio ad on a few blogs, but none seem to know this video/song “WWJD” – “Ford is what Jesus would drive”.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pe-er9FqhYA

    Maybe someone already put in one of the 250 comments.

  258. #259 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    >Shorter answer: the bible is internally inconsistent with
    >itself and externally inconsistent with reality.

    So what you are saying is that science never said that there was a flat Earth? Science is very inconsistant, that is what it is all about. It’s improving yourself through learning new things about the universe and what we thought before was ignorance through science.

    So, basically you are going to really have to explain yourself here. I think you are reaching and generalising.

    I am talking about atheists coming back from death and seeing what it’s like compared to what exactly?

    Reason really isn’t reason if you are being unreasonable.

  259. #260 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    >Wow, the inherent contradiction in the above absolutely
    >blows my mind, as well as double standard applied to the
    >belief in fairies versus the belief in gods.

    Well I also wanted to add in there that there are no dead atheists.

  260. #261 Kenny
    May 27, 2008

    okay, I am out for the night. You all have a good night.

  261. #262 Ziggy
    May 27, 2008

    LOL, the ad aired on 106.3 FM. Where I live tha’t a Contemporary Christian “music” station.

  262. #263 Wowbagger
    May 27, 2008

    Kenny said:

    So what you are saying is that science never said that there was a flat Earth?

    So, what you’re saying is that by not believing in NDEs we’re like those people who believed in a flat Earth?

    Nice try.

    Unfortunately (for you), science allows us to understand (it doesn’t ‘say’, btw) both that the earth isn’t flat and that NDEs (the content of which are oh-so-surprisingly consistent with the existing religious beliefs of the person involved) are caused by the brain doing funky things in a stressful situation – something you’ve been told time and time again by numerous posters here.

    It also does it at other times. Dreams, for example. And drugs – I’ve taken acid; an owl and the river I was walking near spoke to me (i listened to the owl and not the river; that would have been silly – I mean, who listens to a river?). Perceptions can be altered due to pharmacology.

    He also said:

    It is Irrational and unreasonable to just throw the baby out with the bath water and think there is no God.

    Is this a thinly-veiled Pascal’s wager reference? How many points was that again?

  263. #264 Louis
    May 27, 2008

    One of the problems with living in a different time zone from you Americans (that would be the hegemony inducing Yank-o-facists that infest Teh IntarWebz. You cultural cultist oppressors you! ;-) ) is that when I wake in the morning ready to comment, 100 other comments appear between the thing I was talking about 8 hours ago and the new, virginal comment box. It’s a conspiracy I tells you!

    Surely out of *concern* for those of us fortunate enough to be blessed with not living in the USA you could all hold your posts back until say 3:00 am EST?

    Speaking of *concern* I return to the very *concerning* issue of language and neologisms:

    @ Brownian (OM) in post 179:

    A fucking dick eh? How very dare you! I am a gentleman and thus possessed of a dick for fucking with. Whilst cunts are a personal favourite anatomical feature on other people, having a dick is one of my personal favourite anatomical features. Never deride the mighty phallus by association with so flaccid and limp an object as Kenny. Cue: Isn’t it awfully nice to have a penis….

    @ Pcarini in post 180:

    Santorum? It is a great word and thanks for bringing it up…I mean mentioning it…I don’t mean to imply that you bring up santorum as in regurgitate, that would be disgusting. Sadly even santorum has a use. It makes an excellent garden fertiliser in sufficient quantitites for example, although the collection process can be problematic. Dear Kenny is clearly not even THAT useful. We need to think again. I would suggest that Kenny was a coprophile or a scat muncher, but I would be very *concerned* about discriminating against such a niche minority by comparing them unfavourably to Kenny et al.

    @ Heather in post 181:

    Fnie? I like it. If ever I saw a fnieing fitbin, it’s Kenny. Right on, sister! Linguistic *concern* ftw. ;-) I went to see the Vagina Monologues once, and a friend was starring in the section of the show where they were trying to reclaim the word “cunt”. The best bit was when she was shouting the word “cunt” with her mum in the audience, happy days, happy days! The word refers to something sacred and beautiful, and should be reserved only for sexual activities and “documentaries” {ahem} about them, and for people who cut you up in traffic.

    @ Dan in post 188:

    Dammit! You’re right. I apologise unreservedly. If I in anyway caused offence to anyone fucking their knuckles I can only hope that this fulsome retraction in some way mitigates the enormous distress and upset I have caused by my remarks. I was utterly wrong to use the term in that context. I shall now nip off and commit seppuku (no pun intended) to assuage the dishonour my actions have caused.

    Oh bugger!

    @ Kenny in post 236:

    We too can be christians?

    That’s nice. No thanks.

    @ Kenny in post 243:

    You’d rather have in heaven? Are you going to be there?

    I’ll trundle off to hell then, should it exist. My buddies will be there after all, and I won’t have to spend eternity with sanctimonious fnieing fitbins like yourself. An eternity of hot pokers in the gentleman vegetables is as soothing balm on burnt flesh compared to a hour in the company of clueless holier than thou drivellers like yourself.

    Cheerio!

    Lots of love and faux *concern* for comedy effect.

    Louis

  264. #265 Nessie
    May 27, 2008

    I wrote this to the company:

    I heard about your ad. Like you, I support free speech, but I support it for everyone and not just for myself. Otherwise, free speech is kind of useless, wouldn’t you agree? So I would never tell you to shut up. But I would ask you to consider whether your words reflect genuine Christian values and whether they reflect respect for other humans regardless of religion. Thanks, and best wishes for your business.

  265. #266 MAJeff, OM
    May 27, 2008

    It is Irrational and unreasonable to just throw the baby out with the bath water and think there is no God.
    You have been given a choice, you either accept it or deny it and you have made your choice and once you die there is no going back.
    I am happy that I don’t limit my mind in the way that some people here do. My parents always taught me not to limit my mind and my possibilities. I don’t believe in fairies, but I do believe that there is a God and he believes in you

    blah blah blah blah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blahblah blah blah

  266. #267 Christophe Thill
    May 27, 2008

    Is that the notion of democracy that some people have ? Believing that the majority has the right to crush the minority underfoot ? I sense some kind of misunderstanding…

  267. #268 JeffreyD
    May 27, 2008

    OK, after reading the above, I have searched my heart, talked to my personal dog, and I have recanted. Kenny cannot be taught, that we already knew, but we are also unable to ignore him. I am moved by the underlying logic expressed in and have opened my heart to the Gospel of Ichthyic and have taken thoughts from the commentaries of Etha, Kseniya, and MAJeff.

    In other words, spent over 30 minutes wading through the Kennygasm crap above and at my age I hate losing minutes. Even I can no longer ignore him (and I do love the replies to him – I know, inconsistent), so in the fine tradition of religion have decided the ban is better than the temptation. I vote for providing space for Kenny in the dungeon and gently escorting him thither.

    Ciao y’all

  268. #269 Wowbagger
    May 27, 2008

    I just can’t help myself…

    Kenny said:

    I don’t believe in fairies, but I do believe that there is a God

    Why not believe in fairies? There’s just as much reason to believe in them as there is to believe in God – there are books with fairy characters in them (Peter Pan), authority figures who believed in them (Sir Arthur Conan Doyle, creator of Sherlock Holmes) and even Kenny’s favourite irrefutable proof – NDEs – that feature fairies right here.

    And don’t say there aren’t churches to fairies ’cause there’s one right around the corner from my house. Sure, it looks like shop-front where you can pay to have someone dressed as a fairy play with your kids (in a good way I mean – it’s not that much like a church), but isn’t that pretty much what a church is? You give them your money; they lead you in a song-and-dance?

  269. #270 CButterb
    May 27, 2008

    And drugs – I’ve taken acid; an owl and the river I was walking near spoke to me (i listened to the owl and not the river; that would have been silly – I mean, who listens to a river?).

    Christians, naturally. I see someone hasn’t seen Prince Caspian with its climax with Aqua Jesus…

  270. #271 Carlie
    May 27, 2008

    JeffreyD – No, Kenny seems not to be reachable, but hopefully someone more quiet, who shares some of his ideas, is sitting on the sidelines reading the exchange and thinking “Huh. I never looked at it that way…” It’s not simply banging heads against the wall, it’s using him as an example. It’s also nice practice for dealing with other people like him in meatspace, and for some, like me, it’s good to see the well-worded statements that other people use to file away for potential future use.

    In that vein: How can something be verified from 2000 years ago beyond writings from eyewitnesses about it? How can you verify lazurus coming back to life when Jesus raised him except eyewitness evidence and that is provided by the Bible in which you do not believe.

    Kenny, let’s just take this one. Writings from eyewitnesses are good, and even secondary sources (I heard about this event) are supportive. Thing is, there aren’t ANY outside of the bible itself. Now, for Lazarus, that might be understandable, him being only one person and all. But that’s not the only time people came back from the dead – after Jesus died, lots of people came back from the dead and went wandering around Jerusalem. (Matthew 27, if you didn’t know where it was; most pastors kind of gloss over that part.) Jerusalem was a big place, and formerly dead people out walking around would make quite a stir, no? Shouldn’t there have been SOMEONE else who wrote about it? The other three gospels, at the very least? But no, it just pops up once, like it’s no big deal, and no one else ever took note of it. Does that not raise any questions with you?

  271. #272 Stephen Wells
    May 27, 2008

    A few days after (on the squid-eye post) we all went over how humans see a bright light during NDEs because, in the human eye, neurons fire to signal “dark”, and their ceasing to fire due to oxygen starvation signals “light”…

    Kenny is still babbling about how people seeing a bright light during NDEs is proof of his very own personal Jesus.

    Sad, really.

  272. #273 MAJeff, OM
    May 27, 2008

    Does that not raise any questions with you?

    Of course it doesn’t. The Bible is all that’s needed. The silly belief that it is an accurate historical record–verbatim–is one of the most ridiculous notions these folks cling to. Let’s state it as clearly as we can: the Bible is not comprised of eyewitness accounts. Anyone who claims otherwise is simply not dealing with reality, and is rejecting modern methods of inquiry. The practice of producing knowledge–the actual stuff people do to figure out what happened–is irrelevant to fools who think like Kenny. instead, the book, in and of itself, is all that is needed. There’s no need for verification because they produce all this silly internal self-referentiality (yes, I made that word up. So, what?) They aren’t interested in learning about the ancient world, otherwise they’d step out of trying to prove a book that cannot be proven and be more interested in searching out actual accounts of life written in the time, not novels written decades later (the Gospels) or mythic poems written centuries after non-existent people and events supposedly took place.

    Kenny and his idiot ilk don’t get why we ask methodological questions. How was knowledge produced? These fools don’t understand the relationship between methods and knowledge, so any old thing is as good as any other (see NDE nonsense). A historical novel is equal to a historical inquiry looking at original documents like eyewitness accounts, diaries, local reports, etc. They are clueless as to how knowledge claims are to be evaluated. Because it’s in this one special book, that’s why.

  273. #274 cynthia
    May 27, 2008

    Now if peak oil has truly peaked this time, all cars here on Earth won’t be earthbound anymore, including all the godly ones made by Ford. Instead, they’ll by flying on the road to heaven, which is nothing more than a highway to hell, BTW…

  274. #275 Wowbagger
    May 27, 2008

    #269 wrote:

    Christians, naturally. I see someone hasn’t seen Prince Caspian with its climax with Aqua Jesus…

    I still want to go see this. The first one wasn’t great, but this one looks a bit better. I loved the books as a kid and totally missed the Jebus allegories (there’s so much pre-Xian and pagan stuff in PC for crying out loud – don’t they meet Bacchus and/or Silenus?) and still have a soft spot for the stories.

  275. #276 Kseniya
    May 27, 2008

    Etha still didn’t answer my question. ~ Posted by: Kenny

    O_o
    o_O
    0_0
    O_O

    Holy squiggling nematomorphs, Batman!

  276. #277 Kseniya
    May 27, 2008

    2) If an atheist has an NDE and meets God which he does not belief, then how on earth do you explain that?

    C’mon, Kenny. Exercise your brain. For once. Come up with a speculative explanation for this phenomenon. Surely you can do this on your own. You don’t have to believe it. You only have to conceive it. Or are you incapable of integrating knowledge and synthesizing new ideas?

    By the way, “science” never said the earth was flat. Your ignorance knows now bounds.

    Are you embarrassed yet? You should be.

  277. #278 SteveM
    May 27, 2008

    This is exactly what I am trying to tell you. You have been given a choice, you have been given evidence. You do not accept it and thus you reject it.

    If there was evidence for God, then there truly would not be any “choice” as to whether or not to believe. Only if there is no evidence can you choose to believe or not. So if God truly has given us the choice to believe or not, then there can not be any evidence of His existence. Everything must be able to be understood through entirely naturalistic explanations.

  278. #279 Kseniya
    May 27, 2008

    I am happy that I don’t limit my mind

    Kenny is happy because he does limit his mind. In his time here, he has displayed all the intellectual flexibility and permeability of an anvil – yet he mistakes these characteristics for strength. He keeps throwing around words like “logic” and “reason” – but these words do not mean what he thinks they mean. I refer interested readers (Kenny included) back to MAJeff’s fine comment #272.

  279. #280 Kseniya
    May 27, 2008

    Oh, right – thank you, SteveM. “Evidence” is another word that Kenny keeps throwing around, and frequently abuses, as a status to which he blithely promotes hearsay, rumor, invention, and myth.

  280. #281 Kseniya
    May 27, 2008

    BTW, I believe there is something to the hypothesis that Kenny is a Planet Killer morph. At the present time I’d classify this notion as “unlikely, but not impossible” pending further analysis of posts like this.

  281. #282 tsg
    May 27, 2008

    it’s called free speech.

    Yep. You are completely free to say whatever the hell you like. And I am completely free to call you a close-minded bigot and a fucking moron for saying it. It works both ways.

  282. #283 ShavenYak
    May 27, 2008

    Seriously… Ford sucks! If that’s God’s choice of cars, sorry, I’ll skip.

    Fear not. The Lord much prefers an old Plymouth – it was in his Fury that he drove Adam and Eve from the Garden. He’s also a fan of British cars; in fact, his Triumph is glorious.

    Jesus’s disciples preferred the dependability of a Honda – they were all with one Accord. You might think that’s impossible, but if all those animals could fit in the Ark, surely twelve disciples could get in one car.

  283. #284 jeff
    May 27, 2008

    I think something very important is missed in this post, and I’ve seen PZ make the mistake before. By calling them “bigots”, and asking if they’d ‘discriminate against blacks, Jews and women’, we’re buying into the (commonly used) believer’s definition of “bigotry”. This is what they want, because it protects (bad) ideas in the same way that race is protected. Atheists have rationality on our side; we DON’T want to be another religion – that’s the point. Let them discriminate by ideas, because I want to be able to as well.

  284. #285 GDad
    May 27, 2008

    @92 – “I drive a Ford Taurus…”

    It’s interesting that the Taurus is named after a pre-Christian astrological belief set. I wonder if Keiffe & Sons refuse to sell that model.

  285. #286 ajani57
    May 27, 2008

    INRE: everything kenny stands for

    I get that we evolved to want to belong to a group. A group is good for survival.

    But I also get that we evolved frontal lobes which enable us to think.

    So let’s think for a moment, kenny. Why do you WANT to be part of a group that excludes so many? Before you come back with people having a choice, I caution you to think first. Think of all those who have, or had, no choice to confess their sins and believe in jesus. Think of ALL the people who have had no access to said information. Think of the millions that were born, lived, and died never having heard of a bible. Are you okay picturing them in hell? Gnashing their teeth in boiling pits forever?

    Think of the native american mother who died in 1708 who never even saw a bible and is, according to you, still in hell three hundred years later. Think of the profoundly retarded man who couldn’t grasp the concept of a light switch much less that of his sins who died last year who has, in your version, been boiling for a year. Think about the millions of people born in the wrong country or the wrong century who are in hell as you glibly post another warning to those who choose not to follow your cruel and evil message. Blaming me for my fate in hell is fine. I have access to the same information as you and choose to ignore it. But you are also blaming those who have no access to the same information. Think. Could you face them? Could you take a field trip to hell and personally tell each and every one of them that they deserve to boil forever?

    What is wrong with you? Why are you okay with believing in a god that would torture so?

    Assuming you have a forehead, Kenny, try using it. Think, you cruel bastard. Think.

    INRE: the ford ad

    We are told to sit down and shut up. How long until we are not allowed to sit down? …at the lunch counter, that is.

    Also, if they are going to put importance on the majority/minority aspect of belief’s and rights to speak, how do they justify their missionary work? They clearly go in as a minority, hoping to speak until they become a majority. Double standard, I say.

    Ignorant cruel bastards, all of them.

  286. #287 Scottymate
    May 27, 2008

    Gotta be Poe?! :/

  287. #288 SteveM
    May 27, 2008

    ajani57, (285)

    you keep using “INRE:”. I don’t think it means what you think it means. Or am I missing a subtle satire?

  288. #289 Etha Williams
    May 27, 2008

    I wonder if Kenny believes in the miracles of Vespasian, as recorded by Tacitus:

    [4.81] In the months during which Vespasian was waiting at Alexandria for the periodical return of the summer gales and settled weather at sea, many wonders occurred which seemed to point him out as the object of the favour of heaven and of the partiality of the Gods. One of the common people of Alexandria, well known for his blindness, threw himself at the Emperor’s knees, and implored him with groans to heal his infirmity. This he did by the advice of the God Serapis, whom this nation, devoted as it is to many superstitions, worships more than any other divinity. He begged Vespasian that he would deign to moisten his cheeks and eye-balls with his spittle. Another with a diseased hand, at the counsel of the same God, prayed that the limb might feet the print of a Caesar’s foot. At first Vespasian ridiculed and repulsed them. They persisted; and he, though on the one hand he feared the scandal of a fruitless attempt, yet, on the other, was induced by the entreaties of the men and by the language of his flatterers to hope for success. At last he ordered that the opinion of physicians should be taken, as to whether such blindness and infirmity were within the reach of human skill. They discussed the matter from different points of view. “In the one case,” they said, “the faculty of sight was not wholly destroyed, and might return, if the obstacies were removed; in the other case, the limb, which had fallen into a diseased condition, might be restored, if a healing influence were applied; such, perhaps, might be the pleasure of the Gods, and the Emperor might be chosen to be the minister of the divine will; at any rate, all the glory of a successful remedy would be Caesar’s, while the ridicule of failure would fall on the sufferers.” And so Vespasian, supposing that all things were possible to his good fortune, and that nothing was any longer past belief, with a joyful countenance, amid the intense expectation of the multitude of bystanders, accomplished what was required. The hand was instantly restored to its use, and the light of day again shone upon the blind. Persons actually present attest both facts, even now when nothing is to be gained by falsehood (Tacitus, The Histories).

    This is going to be tough…how will he decide whether to believe in Serapis or Yamraj? Well, I’m sure he’ll find a way.

  289. #290 SteveM
    May 27, 2008

    Sorry, I’m a dumbass. I was thinking of INRI, not INRE.
    Carry on.

  290. #291 Janine ID
    May 27, 2008

    Well I also wanted to add in there that there are no dead atheists.

    Posted by: Kenny

    GREAT NEWS! I AM NEVER GOING TO DIE!

    Kenny says it!
    I believe him!
    That settles it!

  291. #292 Kristine
    May 27, 2008

    Sure, I’ll “sit down and shut up!” I haven’t owned a car in a long time, and I’m not planning to start.

    I see that the automotive industry is taking a financial hit (all together now: BOO HOO!) from the mortgage crisis. Shutting up now! (But why does God hate Ford so much?) ;-)

  292. #293 BoxerShorts
    May 27, 2008

    Well I also wanted to add in there that there are no dead atheists.

    Actually, there are no dead theists. Think about it.

  293. #294 SteveM
    May 27, 2008

    there are no dead atheists

    Kenny has certainly taken the “No atheists in foxholes” canard to a whole new level of da stoopid.

  294. #295 Owlmirror
    May 27, 2008

    BTW, I believe there is something to the hypothesis that Kenny is a Planet Killer morph. At the present time I’d classify this notion as “unlikely, but not impossible” pending further analysis of posts like this

    Actually, I think comments like this and this are the clinchers.

    Note also the identical quoting style, and I would bet that a style and word usage analysis would show a strong match.

  295. #296 Nick Gotts
    May 27, 2008

    Owlmirror@194 – You’re surely right! The Kenny IS Planet Killer!! Deny it if you dare Kenny – I believe your imaginary sky-daddy has some things to say about lying, but maybe it’s allowed in the course of trying to save the heathen?

  296. #297 windy
    May 27, 2008

    #269:

    Christians, naturally. I see someone hasn’t seen Prince Caspian with its climax with Aqua Jesus…

    That wasn’t Aqua Jesus, that was (*minor spoiler*) the only pagan god that made it into the movie.

  297. #298 ajani57
    May 27, 2008

    inre #289

    SteveM, lol. (I’m trying to think of an INRI joke I knew long ago that would fit here perfectly, but alas, I cannot remember it.)

  298. #299 Sven DiMilo
    May 27, 2008

    Insipidity.
    Godbotting.
    Stupidity^2.
    and, if Owlmirror is correct (hard to be certain, but the case is mildly persuasive), Morphing.
    come on.
    KENNY FOR PLONKITUDE!!!!!!

  299. #300 Brownian, OM
    May 27, 2008

    The surest evidence that Kenny needs a good plonking is the number of posts about him rather than to him. Again, he manages to derail an entire thread with a few inane comments.

    Hey, I’m happy to call him names as much as the next guy, but seriously, he’s become more tiresome than a Catholic midnight mass.

  300. #301 Brownian, OM
    May 27, 2008

    Further, he’s a homophobic bigot. Would we be having this discussion if he said that miscegenation or otherwise tolerating blacks would lead to an eventual holocaust against whites?

    The soggy shin scab does not deserve anyone’s “Aww gee, but he’s mostly harmless,” respect.

  301. #302 PZ Myers
    May 27, 2008

    The surest evidence that Kenny needs a good plonking is the number of posts about him rather than to him.

    Actually, it’s the other way around. Kenny is an annoying git, but I hate to encourage lynch mobs.

  302. #303 Brownian, OM
    May 27, 2008

    but I hate to encourage lynch mobs

    Well then, what the hell did I become an atheist for?

    Fine then. Kenny can stay, but I reserve the right to fling whatever vituperation I can at him.

    And since I happen to be fond of actual limpets (their little shells are sooo cute!) said vituperation will probably remain of the scatological or reproductive type.

  303. #304 Sven DiMilo
    May 27, 2008

    Lynch mobs???
    That pisses me off. Do you read this shit?
    Not that I think anybody does or should care, but I’m taking a long Pharyngula-break.
    adios, amigos

  304. #305 Brownian, OM
    May 27, 2008

    What?!

    Sven, don’t go! Pissed off or not, let’s keep the dialogue going.

  305. #306 PA
    May 27, 2008

    The problem with the Keiffe & Sons Ford radio ad is not that they have undermined anyone’s free speech rights — saying others ought not to speak is not the same as preventing them from speaking — but rather that that they are guilty of self-contradiction. In their ad they make two claims about speech which can be perspicuously recast as follows:

    1. atheists should not express their beliefs about gods/ religion
    2. everyone has a right to express whatever they believe

    And these two claims more or less straightforwardly contradict one another. After all, the beliefs whose expression is prohibited by (1) are included among those protected by (2). Apparently basic logic is not taught in the California schools. Or maybe Keiffe & Sons were the benefificiaries of a policy of social promotion.

  306. #307 markbt73
    May 27, 2008

    Hmm. I drive a Ford. Well, sort of. It’s a Probe, so it’s really a Mazda in disguise. The build tag says “Manufactured by Mazda Motors for Ford Motor Co.” It has 171,000 miles on it and still gets 36 mpg.

    It’s a great car, but since it’s not even really a Ford, I guess there’s no reason for it to have Ford emblems on it anymore. I think I’ll go take the emblems off it this afternoon.

  307. #308 apk
    May 27, 2008

    For those interested in contacting Ford Motor Company directly, you may do so on this page. I couldn’t decide under which category this fell. Is it “Community and Environment”? “Sales and Advertising”? You decide.

  308. #309 Martin
    May 27, 2008

    I didn’t read all 304 comments above me, so this may have been mentioned already, but what folks in Mojave should do is buy cars from these people and then put a “Proud Atheist” bumper sticker right under the insignia for Keiffe & Sons.

  309. #310 Jason Apple
    May 27, 2008

    Kenny – please address this question, this is a big one:

    Do you truly believe that me rejecting the idea of a God (or divinity of Jesus etc) is a crime worthy of ETERNAL DAMNATION?

    You give the analogy about someone committing murder. Ok, so lets tease this out:

    Killing a man on Earth: life in prison, maybe a speedy execution
    Taking a philosophical stance of agnosticism or atheism: eternal torture

    Making a tired and useless analogy: priceless

    Do you see the problem here? Christians love to make the lazy analogy of people needing to be judged for crimes on Earth correlating to people being judged by God, but it is such a crappy analogy. Does the punishment fit the crime? Especially coming from the most (and only) perfect, all-loving, all knowing omni-benevolent being in existence? I think your instinctual sense of justice knows the right answer, even if you wont admit it out loud.

  310. #311 BoxerShorts
    May 27, 2008

    Actually, I think comments like this and this are the clinchers.

    Note also the identical quoting style, and I would bet that a style and word usage analysis would show a strong match.

    Wow. I’m convinced. Those two posts were almost certainly written by the same person.

  311. #312 PA
    May 27, 2008

    @302

    Two claims

    1. Kenny needs a good plonking

    2. There are a large number of post about Kenny rather than to him.

    Brownian (@300) said (2) was the surest evidence of (1). PZ claims that it’s the other way around, i.e., that (1) is the surest evidence of (2). This,however, just can’t be right. The surest evidence of (2) is clearer the evidence of the senses when reading this thread, rather than the putative fact that Kenny needs a good plonking. Oh and yes, I am a pedant.

  312. #313 woozy
    May 27, 2008

    #269:

    Christians, naturally. I see someone hasn’t seen Prince Caspian with its climax with Aqua Jesus…

    That wasn’t Aqua Jesus, that was (*minor spoiler*) the only pagan god that made it into the movie.

    What? Bacchus didn’t make it? But the river god did?

    Okay, I admit it. I like the Chronicles of Narnia but these movies. *Sheesh*. They really seem to miss the point and go for the least whimsical most heavy-handed approach.

    So vengeful aqua-jesus smashing a bridge violently is more cinematically acceptable than dancing in a drunken orgy frenzy with school-girls stripping off their ill-fitting and stiff uniforms and wild and destructive debauchery and vines in hair? Figures. “battle scenes for the boys” (as my sister put it) seems to be all the movie directors care about. What about drunken stripping school girls for the *men* (and, dare I say it, ex school girls in ill-fitting and stiff uniforms)?

  313. #314 Tim
    May 27, 2008

    My message to ford. sent to the “Community and Environment” section here: http://www.ford.com/about-ford/investor-relations/contact-ford:

    Ford has done an admirable job repairing its reputation due to the antisemitism of its founder. It is clear that the Ford motor company of today does not share its founders views, but one of your dealers is doing much to tarnish the name of Ford. As reported here: http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/, here: http://undergroundunbeliever.blogspot.com/2008/02/jerk-on-radio.html, and here: http://undergroundunbeliever.blogspot.com/2008/04/obnoxious-ford-ad-part-2.html, one of your dealers has been airing bigoted ads that condemn those who do not believe in god, and in an unfortunate echo of the antisemitism in Fords past the ads insult religious people who are not Christians by equating belief in god with Christianity. You will notice in one of the links that I listed that some are perceiving indifference by Ford Motor Company. I trust however that it is only bureaucracy, and that Ford will swiftly address this issue now that (hopefully) the right people have been notified. Thank you.

    Exactly at the 1000 character limit. I played more on the antisemitism aspect, but that is Ford achilles heal. Hopefully Ford will respond. With the antisemitism pointed out they could end up pulling the franchise. there are always morals clauses in those things. Its unlikely, but i can dream (and if I had that power at Ford I’d do it in a heartbeat. Very publicly. I would pound home the message that ford not only doesn’t support bigotry, Ford doesn’t tolerate it).

  314. #315 woozy
    May 27, 2008

    jeff # 282

    I think something very important is missed in this post, … By calling them “bigots”, and asking if they’d ‘discriminate against blacks, Jews and women’, we’re buying into the (commonly used) believer’s definition of “bigotry”. … Let them discriminate by ideas, because I want to be able to as well.

    *ahem*

    posts #151 and #162? Hello?

    Actually, I think the terms “prejudice” and/or “intolerance” is aplicable as an offense as opposed to “bigotry” (not that I usually go for semantic arguments). It’s simply “racist” or “sexist” to disparage (sp.?) against black or women because a) one’s race and gender is not a choice and b) the supposed generalizations about blacks or women are outright false (usually) and c) it’s (usually) simply hateful and ignorant.

    These objections don’t really apply when disparaging another’s political beliefs or vocation or any other aspect that is (presumable) a matter of choice and/or acquired with forethought. No-one would call it “bigotry” when a democrat criticizes a republicans beliefs.

    Hence, on this blog, it’s been a commonly expressed idea that one’s religion is a matter of choice and should be grounds of criticism. After all, if one’s claims believing in evolution (or allowing one’s 15-year old daughter to live after kissing a boy of a different faith) is against one’s religion, we should criticize and disparage this so-called religion and its intolerable and stupid ideas.

    *HOWEVER* that type of judging is POST analysis. I think we all have an innate sense of “unfairness” against discriminating in areas where the “offending” factor is irrelevant or when one doesn’t apply full analysis. If a restaurant asked to see its’ patrons’ voting registration and refused to serve republicans, I think most would find that objectionable. Even in a private university, if a professor grades down a paper because he disagrees with its viewpoint, it is ethically suspect.

    I feel we atheists *are* prejudicially discriminated against when I hear polls saying we are most distrusted, and the majority would never elect us president and so on. I wouldn’t object (although I’d be damned disturbed) if these polls indicated these viewpoints came after deep thought and arose from a sincere belief in the inadequacies of our non-belief in god, but as they stand these views seem to be simply (non)religious-intolerance and prejudice.

    And that’s a bad thing.

    *phew* All that said… These ads… well… I waffle on whether they are religious-intolerance or good-ol’ boy conservative homilies. On the one hand they are hateful and ingnorant, but on the other they are spewing (stupidly) about a political issue (prayer in public schools and removing “In God we trust” from money). Either way it’s obnoxious and stupid and offensive.

    Thought example: Suppose the ad had been spewing “There’s a lot of talk these days about affirmative and hiring folks or letting them in universities just cause they’re black. Well, I got news for you. People should be judged by their merits so why don’t we tell folks trying to slip in because of their skin color to quit whining and apply themselvess like the rest of us do. Now some folks might say I’m not being ‘PC’ but I say, tough. This is America and we have free speech”. Would such an ad be racist? Obnoxious? Offensive? Stupid and offensive but “technically not racist”? “veiled” Racist? Does it really matter; it’s still exceedingly offensive and intolerant?

  315. #316 Matt Penfold
    May 27, 2008

    I would like to point out that I find Kenny to a total pain in the arsehole, but cannot as that would mean I recognise his presence, which is something I am loathe to do.

    So let me just say, if there were a commentator like Kenny, and an I am not saying there is, he would bare an uncanny resemblance to a backside.

  316. #317 windy
    May 27, 2008

    So vengeful aqua-jesus smashing a bridge violently is more cinematically acceptable than dancing in a drunken orgy frenzy with school-girls stripping off their ill-fitting and stiff uniforms and wild and destructive debauchery and vines in hair?

    That too, but also because the Jackson Envy of the first movie is still manifest. “Our river apparition is bigger than their river apparition!”

  317. #318 Matt Penfold
    May 27, 2008

    Doesn’t the term bigotry imply a form of intolerance that is not based on rationality ? It is reasonable to be intolerant of those who are violent towards others as that violence causes harm. It is not reasonable to be intolerant of gay people as they do not represent a danger to anyone.

  318. #319 Etha Williams
    May 27, 2008

    @#243 Brian Coughlan –

    If we did in fact know, that a life of eternal bliss was waiting around the corner, a rational person would behave quite differently. To “choose” Hell rather than Heaven is an act of utter insanity, should these choices in fact be as you say (how you know this is unclear) they are.

    I’d have to disagree on the “act of utter insanity” bit. With the knowledge that a powerful being exists and demands your worship in return for eternal bliss, certainly the most rational action on the level of personal reward would be to worship him; however, I don’t think that such a god would deserve this worship by any stretch of the imagination. Thus, barring the possibility of revolt and overthrow of this god, the most ethical response might be to be a “conscientious objector” to this petty, vengeful despot, and to go to hell willingly and knowingly.

  319. #320 Rev. BigDumbCHimp
    May 27, 2008

    Holy. Fucking. Shit.

    There’s way too much to address Kenny with on this thread.

    ugh

    Kenny,

    I am happy that I don’t limit my mind in the way that some people here do. My parents always taught me not to limit my mind and my possibilities. I don’t believe in fairies, but I do believe that there is a God and he believes in you.

    Kenny, keep an open mind but not so open your brain falls out.

    If you have such an open mind, why are you limiting yourself to the Christian god? Why not Vishnu or Allah or even those fairies you just mentioned?

  320. #321 SplendidMonkey
    May 27, 2008

    This is just the kind of ad Satan would use to lure in innocent souls. Car dealer eh?

  321. #322 MAJeff, OM
    May 27, 2008

    It is not reasonable to be intolerant of gay people as they do not represent a danger to anyone.

    Aye, there’s the rub. Apparently, in fuckwit land, the existence of gay people is a threat. For example, Pastor Hagee, whom Joe Lieberman cannot get enough of, proclaims that the existence of a raunchy gay rights parade (which apparently never existed) was enough to bring Katrina into New Orleans. And then there’s Falwell’s declaration that acceptance of homosexuality is what caused his monstrous sky buddy to allow 9-11 to happen, with Pat Robertson nodding along. Some of ‘em hate for the sake of hate–see Pat Buchanan or the punkass kids who decide to go “rolling fags” on weekends. However, people like the odious pastors mentioned above, and their acolyte Kenny who has proclaimed the recent California decision as one more step toward the destruction of society, are convinced that my mere existence as a gay man is a threat to the planet’s survival.

    Yes, it’s irrational and based on all kinds of hateful ridiculous nonsense. But, in the twisted little world of Hagee, Robertson, Fallwell, and Keny, the existence of gay people is a very real threat to their lives.

  322. #323 Nicole
    May 27, 2008

    Methinks that an all-mighty creator doesn’t need a little car dealership to defend him, eh?

  323. #324 gex
    May 27, 2008

    Someone asked, “What has religion ever accomplished?”

    It has made tiny, tiny people who are afraid of the big wide complex world, with large gray areas between the black and white of good and evil feel less scared and insignificant. It clears up all the hard work the rest of us put in every day navigating those gray areas to try to behave morally. Why do all that work when there’s a book or a preacher who can just tell you what to do without thinking? Context is just confusing.

    Oh, were you looking for positive accomplishments? Nevermind…

  324. #325 Dustin
    May 27, 2008

    I don’t believe in fairies

    …but fairies believe in you.

  325. #326 John
    May 27, 2008

    Re-cast your product as a religious statement, and draw in the religious crowd. It means more traffic and that means more sales- you’re attracting more of a demographic than “potential car buyers near me,” now you’ve got “Christians near me”.

    I’d love to pretend that it won’t work, but I imagine it’s plenty profitable for the guys.

  326. #327 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    May 27, 2008

    I’d love to pretend that it won’t work, but I imagine it’s plenty profitable for the guys.

    Sure, so did whites only counters at Woolworth in Greesboro, NC. For a while.

    It may be good for business initially, but I’m betting it’s starting to feel even hotter in the desert after the attention it has been receiving.

  327. #328 gex
    May 27, 2008

    “Is that the notion of democracy that some people have ? Believing that the majority has the right to crush the minority underfoot ?”

    yes. everything else is classified as “judicial activisim” nowadays. good thing luntz didn’t run the playbook for the Republicans when the Lincoln was in office.

  328. #329 Duncan
    May 27, 2008

    I keep expecting this thread to die out, but Kenny gave it another injection of toxins and the histamines continue to flare up. In my ideal world (and what a world it is!), we would have configurable bozo filters that would collapse the poster in question into a one-line post summary, and whose content we could choose to reveal or not. Anyone who doesn’t actively reveal Kenny’s posts would not be tempted to respond, while the morbidly curious and flame-attracted could engage as always.

    I still like the strictly linear threading here (as opposed to hierarchical threading found at, say, Slashdot), so we’d encounter replies to comments whose original post might be hidden, but that seems to be a reasonable balance between filtering and censorship.

    Replying to flame bait will never cease as long as TCP is layered on top of IP, but I agree that Kenny’s ability to hijack threads is not serving us here…

  329. #330 khan
    May 27, 2008

    …and shun the frumious bandersnatch.

  330. #331 gex
    May 27, 2008

    OTOH, if Jesus and God are real, they must be terribly, terribly sad to see that they are just a marketing tool for tools.

    Meanwhile, at my WORKPLACE, the VP of the company just sent around a really religious, bigoted, “REAL AMERICANS ARE…” email which invited those who disagreed to feel free to leave the country.

    When our freedoms are reduced to shutting up or leaving the country, can we agree that we are no longer free?

  331. #332 Parrotlover77
    May 27, 2008

    Write to Ford Corporate here: https://secure.ford.com/footer/contact-ford/contact-us-email?contactMainTopic=PublicAffairs

    Writing to the dealer won’t do jack. The dealer is an ass. Writing to Ford Corporate might help if enough noise is made. I’m sure no matter what their personal convictions at Ford, they don’t want anybody upset at them in a waning market as more people move to smaller foreign cars.

  332. #333 SpendidMonkey
    May 27, 2008

    The poster of the youtube recording says the ads have been pulled. I have a hard time believing a company would not preview an ad they paid to have produced…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sOVAZolE4iY

  333. #334 Duncan
    May 27, 2008

    @gex #331:

    Ask your ‘real american’ VP what tribe he belongs to.

  334. #335 Rey Fox
    May 27, 2008

    Kenny jumps the shark:

    >Shorter answer: the bible is internally inconsistent with
    >itself and externally inconsistent with reality.

    So what you are saying is that science never said that there was a flat Earth? Science is very inconsistant, that is what it is all about. It’s improving yourself through learning new things about the universe and what we thought before was ignorance through science.

    Total non sequitur response, and flogs one of his non sequitur talking points. I usually don’t call for people to be cast into the dungeon, but Ken’s really become a broken record. And, if I recall correctly, the cardinal sin in Pharynguland is being boring.

  335. #336 woozy
    May 27, 2008

    On a thread 330 posts long, does anyone mind if I go off tangent? I hope not. I figure anyone reading a thread 330 posts long is probably picking out their personal tangents.

    Anyhow:

    Re: #317: About Narnia and Prince Caspian:

    That too, but also because the Jackson Envy of the first movie is still manifest. “Our river apparition is bigger than their river apparition!”

    Took me a while to realize the “jackson envy” referred to Peter Jackson and not Samuel Jackson or Michael Jackson.

    I overall liked the Lord of the Rings and it was very thrilling to see the first one pump and flesh out the LotR but boy did it become overkill in the second and third.

    Gad, it seems so tedious now.

    Haven’t seen Prince Caspian but judging on the botching of the first and the TV ads for the second I feel this Jacksonism is very misapplied. In the book it was a whimsome fantasy of the suppressed happy paganism of the land bubbling up and over the dour oppressive modernity that could no longer keep it down. It was playful and inevitable like grass growing through cement speeded up or water over-boiling and pushing things out of its way. It *wasn’t* a huge vengeful epic battle and watching the world crumbling before your eyes. And, okay, I was half joking about the stripping school girls (although if they could tastefully do that it’d probably be remembered much longer than yet another CGI-leviathan smashing a building) but the point of the scene was the *little* details of life suddenly become aware of how *dull* Miraz has made them and the details themselves simply bursting out despite themselves.

    I’m very scared to see what Jackson’s going to do with the excedingly subtle and “small-screen” nature of “Tintin”. I mean, Tintin isn’t just Indiana Jones in plus fours.

  336. #337 Will Von Wizzlepig
    May 27, 2008

    Free speech.

    I’m for it.

    If more businesses would stand up and sick both their feet in their mouths like this, they could effectively have their own little realities re-organized when far more than 14% of their customer base evaporated and they got to lose some money over their asshole behavior.

    Don’t take this dumb hick behavior as a toe-stepping- they’ve just voluntarily highlighted themselves. Let’s hope more people keep it up, as there’s no other way to send an appropriate message than to boycott businesses for their arrogant stupidity.

    Add Chevron to that list- they own the controlling interest in the patent for production of *all* large NIMH (rechargable) batteries, and are making it impossible for people to buy and use them to make efficient electric cars. Chevron really deserves to get their butts kicked.

  337. #338 windy
    May 27, 2008

    Took me a while to realize the “jackson envy” referred to Peter Jackson and not Samuel Jackson

    There’s a thought. “I’ve had it with these motherfucking trees on this motherfucking… battlefield?

  338. #339 fireant451
    May 27, 2008

    Mr. Kieffe should realize there are no Fords mentioned in the Bible, but scholars have determined that God drove Adam and Eve out of the Garden of Eden in a Fury.

  339. #340 Elyse
    May 27, 2008

    Well now you tell me. I just bought a brand new Ford. Its not my fault, my parents picked it out. Yeah, but to put it politely, FUCK THAT SHIT.

  340. #341 ndt
    May 27, 2008

    I think the closest the UK’s ever come to this would be Reg Vardy, who I think runs some sort of massive auction house for knock-off second-hand cars. He poured some of his not inconsiderable wealth into a private christian school and tried – and completely failed – to encourage the government to teach intelligent designism in science classes.

    Unfortunately he also tried – and succeeded – in getting the government to help fund his private faith schools where creationism is taught.

  341. #342 Dave
    May 27, 2008

    I wish I lived near this place! I’d spend some time there, test drive a few vehicles, have them do all the paperwork for a sale, etc… maybe come back on a few different days… after they’d done all the work, and it was time to sign, I’d give them the “Hey, aren’t you the christian place that advertises on the radio?” line… and walk out. :-)

  342. #343 David Marjanovi?, OM
    May 27, 2008

    Warning: This is a reply to several posts by Kenny. I still believe that if he gets things explained to him, slowly, piecemeal, he will understand (…provided he dares to read in the first place!). If you’re not interested, scroll down.

    ———————-

    Kenny, you don’t know what “dimension” means. Length, width, height, and time are dimensions. Got that?

    You also don’t know what “energy” means. Go back to your second-grade physics textbook and read it. Maybe you’ll understand it this time.

    You don’t even seem to know what “know” means. You say “We know people’s souls are made of energy” — but we don’t even know whether souls exist at all!

    And, of course, there is 1) no evidence souls exist, 2) no evidence on how many souls anyone has — remember, the ancient Egyptians believed in several souls per person or at least per king –, 3) the assumption that souls exist is not needed to explain anything we know; it is therefore reasonable, at least for the time being, that souls do not exist.

    Now, of course, you dispute point number 1). Let me address this:

    Is it not accepting NDEs as evidence because, for example, some NDEs are Muslim rather than Christian?

    People keep bringing this up and I have seen no evidence of this at all. Atheists are going to bring this up for denial purposes. Deny everything that does not fit into the atheists world view.

    Do you know who is the denier here?

    You are. You don’t want to accept that Muslim NDEs exist, because you want to believe.

    Owlmirror brought you a Hindu NDE. I’m sure if you stay on that site a little longer, you’ll find Muslim ones, too.

    Keep searching, Kenny. Keep searching reality.

    All of the NDE’s that I have read about have seen a light brighter than anything in life so bright it would consume them and that light is pure love.

    Of course if you can’t see this light in person and mesure it, it does not exist or we try to explain it with silliness. Oh it was your brain making the light. uh no!

    No, indeed not. It’s your retina that’s generating the impression.

    You see, you’re not a squid, you’re a vertebrate. As such, the photoreceptor cells in your retina constantly produce cyclo-GMP from GTP, and GTP costs energy to make. Light (ultimately) leads to the destruction of GMP; this reduction of the GMP level in the cell leads to the generation of a nerve impulse at its end where a nerve cell (ultimately) propagates that impulse to the optic nerve.

    If there’s no oxygen in the retina, no GTP can be made, so the GMP level sinks and sinks. Guess what happens.

    And why is that light love? Because seeing strong light — or rather, a current arriving from the optic nerve that is normally generated by seeing strong light — leads to the destruction of melatonin in the brain, the same effect sugar has. Melatonin = sleepiness; lack of melatonin = wakeness to the point of bliss.

    Close your eyes and look into the sun (with closed eyes). You will like it.

    Compare a bright summer day to a thunderstorm. Which do you like better? I know which one, and I know why.

    It’s all out there, Kenny. There is so much knowledge out there that you didn’t even know exists. But Google is your friend. Take a few hours and just read. You will learn a lot.

    ———————-

    It’s all about choices. Murder is a choice

    Are you sure about that?

    Really, really sure?

    Because if you are, I submit you are a dangerous madman.

    You see, I have inhibitions against killing someone. I’m not emotionally capable of it. Are you?

    ——————-

    Well, it wasn’t made for humans we know that much. It was made for Satan. It is a place without God and that is what the atheists want, a place without God.

    You still don’t know what “atheist” means, it seems.

    It means “someone who does not believe that any deity exists”.

    People who do believe God exists and hate him/her/it/squid are not atheists. They are dystheists.

    In my case I want God and I need him. With him I can do so much more than without him.

    Fine, but that doesn’t mean he exists.

    —————-

    How can something be verified from 2000 years ago beyond writings from eyewitnesses about it?

    - Archeology.
    - Writings from independent sources. The supposed events you talk about are all mentioned in one and the same source and nowhere else.
    - The principle of parsimony: no more things should be assumed than absolutely necessary. The idea that a miracle happened requires a lot more assumptions than the idea that the supposed miracle, and its three thousand supposed eyewitnesses, are made up. Even the idea that the witnesses are real, and that they had some weird sort of collective hallucination, requires much fewer assumption than the idea that the miracle actually happened. — Just think about it. Without the principle of parsimony, what would we do? Would it make sense to choose the idea that requires the most extra assumptions?

    If an atheist has an NDE and meets God which he does not belief, then how on earth do you explain that?

    First of all, I doubt that this ever happened. If you know of a case, please leave me a link.

    But if it did, so what? Atheists are generally people who are swayed by evidence, from wherever its wind blows. So if an atheist has a bright-light experience and doesn’t know how his eyes work, and starts hallucinating, he’s likely to conclude he was wrong and there is a god — most likely of the religion he’s most familiar with –, and will hallucinate accordingly.

    We see the “evidence”. We just humbly submit it isn’t evidence at all.

    The Big bag had to start somewhere.

    And?

    Something with intelligence had to jump start the universe.

    1) Why?
    2) Why should that be the Christian god and not something else?

    The human brain even if it somehow magically evolved from something had to have some intelligence behind it evolving.

    This shows very clearly that you haven’t understood the theory of evolution. Even though it’s very simple, it’s too late at night for me to explain it. Just go look it up.

    The universe has properties of physics and dimensions and it is irrational to say that somehow this all happened and evolved without an intelligence to jump start and help it evolve in the first place.

    1) The argument from personal incredulity (“I just can’t imagine it”) is a logical fallacy.
    2) Again: why the Christian god? Why not, say, Shiva?

    I don’t believe in fairies, but I do believe that there is a God and he believes in you.

    What reason do you have not to believe in fairies? This is an entirely serious question.

    So what you are saying is that science never said that there was a flat Earth?

    Exactly.

    Eratosthenes figured out it was round and calculated its size (with amazing precision) over two thousand years before the scientific method was developed.

    And what was your point? That religion never learns and therefore never changes? (This would not quite be correct, BTW.)

  343. #344 David Marjanovi?, OM
    May 27, 2008

    Comment 278 bears repeating:

    If there was evidence for God, then there truly would not be any “choice” as to whether or not to believe. Only if there is no evidence can you choose to believe or not. So if God truly has given us the choice to believe or not, then there can not be any evidence of His existence. Everything must be able to be understood through entirely naturalistic explanations.

    You know who said this to me?

    First, my Religion teacher near the end of the equivalent of highschool. (Catholic.)
    Then, a chemistry professor at the university who gave a lecture on religion and faith. (Christian; almost certainly Catholic.)

    Kenny, are you beginning to understand how pathetic your theology is?

    Maybe I should quote the Book of Mormon at you:

    Alma 32:17-18
    Yea, there are many who do say: If thou wilt show unto us a
    sign from heaven, then we shall know of a surety; then we shall believe. Now I ask, is this faith? Behold, I say unto you, Nay; for if a man knoweth a thing he hath no cause to believe, for he knoweth it.

    You have the scientist mindset, Kenny. You are not capable of believing without evidence. That is not faith.

    Think about it.

  344. #345 Tcvernatter
    May 27, 2008

    Wow what an idiot, I wonder if people actually are falling for this shit. Also how can this guy possible think that the 84% of the country that he cites believes in god are all Christians.

  345. #346 Miss Agent Girl
    May 27, 2008

    re: ajani57′s post #286

    Thanks for the great post! It’s been a while since someone articulated so passionately that saber of obviousness. Years ago I frequently found myself discussing this very same issue with some Mennonite missionaries from Granada. They didn’t seem to cling to the burning-in-hell theory for the pre-Christian locals. Perhaps they had mellowed a bit after attaching the faces and lives of real people to the eternal damnation of their religious ideology.

  346. #347 Jessa
    May 27, 2008

    The guy that wrote the radio spot has responded to Anna Lemma.

  347. #348 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    Kenny is an annoying git, but I hate to encourage lynch mobs.

    I do hope you weren’t being serious there, since what are all the poll crash threads but encouraging just that?

    c’mon PZ, if you’re not going to plonk the bugger based on your own stated rules (in this case, Insipidity being the relevant one), at least be honest about the reason why.

    sometimes red-flagging an abusive poster is a request for “the law” to take action, not a lynch mob.

    If it were a lynch mob, we would be able to take care of the matter ourselves.

  348. #349 Etha Williams
    May 27, 2008

    @#347 Jessa –

    The guy that wrote the radio spot has responded to Anna Lemma.

    He has a blog, too, with just one entry…and it’s about the radio ad. It’s rambling and weird, and has the following gems:

    There is a great silent majority of Americans that are believers.

    and:

    I do not condem [sic] any American that disagrees with me. You all can stand up and shout, burn flags, gather on a corner and cuss the government, males can marry males, females can marry females you can all buy one of those imports and send the money to Japan if you want, but you do not have the right to force your philosophy on to others.

    Apparently, that is a right reserved for the majority:

    I think that it is time for you to understand this very simple little fact. You are in the minority and as loud as you yell and protest, you will always be in the minority.

  349. #350 SteveM
    May 27, 2008

    Comment 278 bears repeating:

    If there was evidence for God, then there truly would not be any “choice” as to whether or not to believe. Only if there is no evidence can you choose to believe or not. So if God truly has given us the choice to believe or not, then there can not be any evidence of His existence. Everything must be able to be understood through entirely naturalistic explanations.

    You know who said this to me?

    First, my Religion teacher near the end of the equivalent of highschool. (Catholic.)
    Then, a chemistry professor at the university who gave a lecture on religion and faith. (Christian; almost certainly Catholic.)

    Busted! I guess my Catholic upbringing is showing through. CCD class was where I was taught the whole “evidence would destroy faith so stop trying to ‘prove’ God’s existence” concept.

  350. #351 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    from Horne’s “blog”:

    so called non believers

    we’re not even atheists, we’re just “so called non believers”.

    I’m shocked, I tells ya, shocked.

    :p

  351. #352 Miss Agent Girl
    May 27, 2008

    Well..apparently Kieffe and Sons have drawn a line in the sand.

    http://jwhorne2.blogspot.com/

  352. #353 Etha Williams
    May 27, 2008

    @#352 Miss Agent Girl –

    Well..apparently Kieffe and Sons have drawn a line in the sand.

    http://jwhorne2.blogspot.com/

    We’ve made too many compromises already; too many retreats. They invade our schools, and we fall back. They assimilate entire cultures, and we fall back. Not again. The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!

    (Adapted from Star Trek: First Contact)

  353. #354 Malcolm
    May 27, 2008

    It occurred to me while reading this seemingly endless thread that one of Kenny’s many problems is that he doesn’t understand the concept of parsimony.

    Kenny,
    The reason no one here accepts your NDE as proof of god shtick is that an explanation requiring fewer unproven assumptions is available. You are talking to scientists here. We don’t choose to ignore your explanation. There is no choice involved until such time as you can show a reason why all the simpler explanations are false.

  354. #355 Todd
    May 27, 2008

    Karen Peralta #194

    Todd (#187), let me guess, you’re not from the Antelope Valley?

    Not anymore, I was stationed at Edwards in the mid ’90s. I know there is a lot of religious nuttery there, just as there is everywhere (especially in Texas wher I live now). My point is that perhaps PZ, not being aware of the area, may have undersold the level of reason that does exist. Obviously I was right since people like you do live there and speak out.

  355. #356 Duncan
    May 27, 2008

    I’ve actually driven through Kieffe & Sons’ lot, on the way out of Mojave after eating at Mike’s (if I recall the name correctly). If those boys have trouble accomodating unbelievers then maybe they need a mob of muslims at their front door. Now THERE’S a group of believers, and as a bonus, they actually believe in the same abrahamic god! Good times all around!

    And if J W Horne don’t like their kind of belief well thats tough.

  356. #357 woozy
    May 27, 2008

    Well..apparently Kieffe and Sons have drawn a line in the sand.

    http://jwhorne2.blogspot.com/

    From said blog.

    “This country was founded on the belief in God. All you have to do is read the constitution and see for yourself.”

    Read it. God is never mentioned. Neither is Christ nor christions. Do a word search yourself if you don’t believe me.

    http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/constitution/text.html

    You’re thinking of that other document. The declaration of independence which mentions the word “Creator” once. But “God” and “Christ” and “Christian” never.

    http://www.earlyamerica.com/earlyamerica/freedom/doi/text.html

    The constitution is the one that says in its’ first ammendment: “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof;” which establishes unequivicably that the United States is not and can never be a Christian Country (or a a country of any other religion).

  357. #358 Duncan
    May 27, 2008

    Malcom: “It occurred to me while reading this seemingly endless thread that one of Kenny’s many problems is that he doesn’t understand the concept of parsimony.”

    That, my friend, is the LEAST of his problems. Pathological obtusity is much higher on the list, and appears, from all indications and efforts here, to be incurable.

  358. #359 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    Horne:

    The difference between them and you is this. Believers do not have to justify their existence.

    anyone care to bother justifying their existence?

    seriously, people that think that others must justify their existence are one step away from deciding that those that must justify their existence should have their existence denied them anyway.

    Expelled tried to tie Darwinism to genocide, but it’s quite obvious that the mentality of denying others their very right to exist lies with xianity. It’s a typical strategy of the right to hoist their own weaknesses onto their opponents.

  359. #360 smartass-woozy-with-two-pints-in-him
    May 27, 2008

    Also from ad writers blog:

    “We do business according to the rules of the good book”

    To which smartass-woozy-with-two-pints-in-him responded:

    You don’t charge interests on loans?! Well, hell, why didn’t you just say so?! For a lifetime interest-free loan you could be an Edomite for all I care if you refuse to charge usury!

    Heck, I’ll even let you sell me pork (although I know you can not eat it yourself).


    Above is sarcasm. Even though you presume to know what is in the good book and the constitition (without appearantly given any indication of having read either yourself) don’t presume others haven’t.

    ====
    “It occurred to me while reading this seemingly endless thread that one of Kenny’s many problems is that he doesn’t understand the concept of parsimony”

    I know they can be can’t astrigent when consumed even a moment before full maturity, but if you wait until they are *fully* aged, that is *fully* fully aged and not a second earlier, so that that are so mature that the can not even maintain shape and cohession under their internal strength and gravity; when they are so aged and soft that the merest poking will bruise them irreperably, then they are really sweet and tasty.

    You should run them through a strainer and steam a pudding from them. Yum!

    It’s difficult but if you are patient and *really* attune yourself to their maturity parsimonies are reall delicious.

    Just don’t over indulge yourself to the point of morbid obtusity.

  360. #361 Neil B.
    May 27, 2008

    They made a mistake anyway – they inferred from 86% believing in God, to 86% being Christians – but what about conservative Jews etc?

  361. #362 Etha Williams
    May 27, 2008

    @#359 Ichthyic –

    seriously, people that think that others must justify their existence are one step away from deciding that those that must justify their existence should have their existence denied them anyway.

    God giveth, God taketh away. And if you’re acting in the name of God….

  362. #363 woozy
    May 27, 2008

    They made a mistake anyway – they inferred from 86% believing in God, to 86% being Christians – but what about conservative Jews etc?

    Conservative Jews fall into one of four camps.

    A)Conservative Jews who are athiests.
    B)Conservative Jews who believe in God.
    C)Conservative Jews who are Christians
    D)Conservative Jews who are not Christians.

    by a weird coincident Set B is entirely contained in set C and set D is entirely set in group A. Amazing, isn’t it! Who’d have though that all those fundamentalist Muslims in America were by pure coincidence were also all Christians!

  363. #364 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    And if you’re acting in the name of God….

    …or claiming to, anyway.

  364. #365 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    ROFLMAO:

    Anna has found out what Jesus would drive:

    http://undergroundunbeliever.blogspot.com/2008/05/wwjd-why-ford-of-course.html

  365. #366 GS
    May 27, 2008

    Holy freaking crap! They killed Kenny!

  366. #367 Joe
    May 27, 2008

    Belief in God does not correlate that closely with being Christian. If 86% of people said they were Xtian that would be different. Any idiot can believe in God, or say they do.

  367. #368 w86zy
    May 27, 2008

    Belief in God does not correlate that closely with being Christian. If 86% of people said they were Xtian that would be different. Any idiot can believe in God, or say they do.

    He’s now claiming the approval rating of his ad is 86%.

    I think he just likes the number 86%. After all, we all know that 86% of the people will believe statistics that claim to have 86% support and the co-relation between acceptance of statistics based on the aesthetics of their numbers is 86% higher than acceptance of statistics based on their validity.

  368. #369 Ichthyic
    May 27, 2008

    I think he just likes the number 86%.

    there must be a way to divide 23 into 86.

    :p

  369. #370 Kseniya
    May 28, 2008
  370. there must be a way to divide 23 into 86.

    Yes! There must be. Wait, wait… let me check my Bible calculator.

    I have it!

    86 / 23 = pi!

  • #371 Ichthyic
    May 28, 2008

    86 / 23 = pi!

    LOL

  • #372 Ron Hager
    May 28, 2008

    Where to complain:
    http://www.kieffeandsons.com/

    Ford Motor Company
    Customer Relationship Center
    P.O. Box 6248
    Dearborn, MI 48126

    I do not have the address of the president of Ford – that would be nice if someone would publish that.

    Does anyone know the name or call letters of the radio station that played this? I would like to write to the FCC about their license.

  • #373 DavidCT
    May 28, 2008

    What’s a Ford?

  • #374 Duncan
    May 28, 2008

    @DavidCT: “What’s a Ford?”

    It’s their low-end model line, kind of like a Dnodge.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fnord

  • #375 Jim C.
    May 28, 2008

    Looks like Rick Kieffe, owner of Kieffe and Sons Ford, had his ‘Come to Jesus‘ moment and has issued an apology.

  • #376 epsilon
    May 29, 2008

    I just got a response from Ford:

    Thank you for contacting the Ford Motor Company Customer Relationship Center regarding Kieffe & Sons Ford’s advertising campaign.

    Ford Motor Company is concerned with the satisfaction of all Ford and Lincoln-Mercury owners and potential customers. We regret the circumstances that have prompted you to contact us.

    This specific issue has been addressed by Ford Motor Company personnel with appropriate representatives at Kieffe and Sons Ford in Mojave, California. Our investigation has determined that the advertising was placed in error. Corrective actions have been taken to prevent this from happening again.

    Thank you for taking the time to bring this to our attention.

    If you have any other inquiries, please feel free to contact us and we will be happy to address them for you.

    Sincerely,
    Jill
    Customer Relationship Center
    Ford Motor Company

    So, they took care of the problem, but I still think the “placed in error” part is a little iffy.

  • #377 RamblinDude
    May 29, 2008

    Wow, there is something so cool about bloggers making things happen.

  • #378 woozy
    May 29, 2008

    From the Kiefe & Son Web Front Page:

    This statement is provided in response to reaction prompted by a radio commercial that Kieffe & Sons Ford recently ran referring to issues of God in our schools and on our money.

    “For 15 years, Kieffe and Sons Ford has run ad campaigns that focus on current events. We have chosen to do this rather than presenting typical car sales ads. We do this through an agency that develops the material and sends us a package of commercials to review. From this, we select commercials that we distribute to area radio stations. Frequently we emphasize humor and patriotic themes, as we are located adjacent to two military bases. Public response over these 15 years has been hugely positive, often eliciting calls and visits from appreciative individuals. Regrettably, the commercial that has prompted the current objection to religious sentiment (“Under God”, “In We Trust”) was not closely reviewed by our dealership before it went live. The commercial has been replaced. We apologize to all who were offended. It is Kieffe and Sons’ intention to support America and the freedoms that make this country great.”

    Rick Kieffe, President

    ===

    Schdenfraude never felt so good!

  • #379 castletonsnob
    May 29, 2008

    Could you post the exact web address for this statement, woozy? I don’t see it anywhere on the site I’m looking at.

    Thanks!

  • #380 Brandon P.
    May 29, 2008

    But did you know that 86% of Americans say they believe in God? Since we all know that 86 out of every 100 of us are Christians

    Belief in God != Christianity. Or have these people forgotten that Ra, Zeus, Kukulcan, Thor, and Baal are technically gods as well?

  • #381 Mike G
    May 29, 2008

    on Sierra Highway in Mojave and Rosamond

    Ever notice how the shittier the location, the more aggressive people are about their Xtianity?

    I guess maybe I just offended 14% of the people who are listening to this message. Well, if that is the case then I say that’s tough

    That’s some Mighty Powerful Stupid from a business perspective. Corporations routinely pull ads if a tiny, tiny minority of Xtian busybodies is mobilized by some Grievance Charlatan to complain about them.

  • #382 woozy
    May 29, 2008

    “Could you post the exact web address for this statement, woozy? I don’t see it anywhere on the site I’m looking at.

    Really? They put in on their front page yesterday. Maybe you just need to hit the refresh button…

    http://www.kieffeandsons.com/

  • #383 woozy
    May 29, 2008

    Well, after two days the guy who says he wrote the ad couldn’t take the heat and has removed his blog. http://jwhorne2.blogspot.com/

    Too bad, it had some amusing stuff. The thing was the guy was sincere. He honestly believed folks can believe any damned thing they want but they have no right to force their beliefs onto him. So this ad was inspired by the (pretty old) news about the athiest father sueing the school board for making his daughter say “under god” in the pledge of allegience. He sincerely thought this was a case of the athiest forcing his views on others. Weird…

  • #384 bill
    May 29, 2008

    Looks like ol’ j w doesn’t take dissent very well. There were, IIRC, over a hundred replies to his first post, which he has now deleted in its entirety. He’s still complaining about the bad, non-patriotic atheists. I told him to sit down and shut up. Fair’s fair and all that, right?

  • #385 woozy
    May 29, 2008

    He’s still complaining about the bad, non-patriotic atheists. I told him to sit down and shut up. Fair’s fair and all that, right?

    Yeah, I did too. At least I hope I did so politely.

    At least he’s getting more specific. His complaint is that a disgruntled few of us (such as the atheist father whose daughter is in a public school) are pushing our way (by suing a school for having the words ‘under god’ in the pledge of allegiance) onto others and invoking harm. It’s not a good argument but at least this time it is an argument. Before it was just a non-sensical rant.

  • #386 castletonsnob
    May 29, 2008

    Yeah, still not getting it, woozy, even when I follow your link. Must be something wrong with my server or computer or both. Thanks for trying to help anyway!

  • #387 castletonsnob
    May 29, 2008

    Never mind! Found it on their “contact us” page.

  • #388 woozy
    May 29, 2008

    The site uses frames. Try going here http://www.kieffeandsons.com/main.html

    Anyway, it just says what I cut and pasted.

    Huge discussion at his dumb blog.

  • #389 eleanora
    May 30, 2008

    This is the car for PZ…
    http://www.earthgarden.com.au/electriccar.html

    The only catch is that it only does 100 km before it needs recharging.

  • #390 Eddie Walenta
    January 2, 2010

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