Pharyngula

Pathetic poll

Recall the car dealership ad that suggested that non-Christians sit down and shut up? A poll by a television station asks, Does the Kieffe and Sons Ford ad make you want to buy a car from the dealership? The only choices are “yes” and “no” — they don’t even include “no, it convinces me to never buy anything from those clowns”, so the poll is a bit biased already.

Would you believe that right now 31% are saying “yes”? They like car salesmen who discriminate.

Comments

  1. #1 Michelle
    May 30, 2008

    Didn’t they apologize for it recently? Anyway, look… Forget the ad. They’re selling FORDS. THAT’S the massive problem here. Ford sucks!

  2. #2 True Bob
    May 30, 2008

    Less than 15% now prefer christer-only sales.

  3. #3 Mystyk
    May 30, 2008

    Already down to 15%.
    Too bad it doesn’t show the number of votes.

  4. #4 JeffreyD
    May 30, 2008

    Actually, right now, 0946 on the east coast, the vote is 86% no.

    Ciao y’all

  5. #5 Serena
    May 30, 2008

    No is at 86.1% now.

    And Ford really does suck.

  6. #6 Natasha Yar-Routh
    May 30, 2008

    I live in Kern County, the same county as the dealership, so neither the add or the poll results surprise me alas. My little mountain community has something like 28 churches for maybe 10 to 11 thousand people total in the small towns up here.

  7. #7 Dennis N
    May 30, 2008

    There really should be an “indifferent” choice.

  8. #8 True Bob
    May 30, 2008

    Oh yeah, I forgot about the whole it’s a Ford POS store issue. Thanks for the reminder.

  9. #9 SC
    May 30, 2008

    6.3% Y
    93.7% N

  10. #10 Lynnai
    May 30, 2008

    The poll is down.

  11. #11 tsg
    May 30, 2008

    No, they blamed it on someone else.

  12. #12 Ranson
    May 30, 2008

    Poll is up as of 10:05 Eastern, and at 5%-95%.

  13. #13 Allytude
    May 30, 2008

    And the attached story has an interesting quote…
    “Rick Kieffe said, “I do not regret it, it’s simply how we feel. We feel that one child shouldn’t keep the other 29 children in class from saying the pledge of allegiance. We feel it should say, In God We Trust should be on the money, and there’s these things where the majority feels one way but a smaller group tells them to sit down and shut up and that’s where the unfortunate language came into this ad. The sit down and shut up part kind of got by me.””

  14. #14 Kez
    May 30, 2008

    Poll worked for me. It’s a dumb question though. I try not to base my buying decisions on advertisements regardless of whether I agree or disagree with them.

  15. #15 Ric
    May 30, 2008

    The “yes” is down to 3%. Feel the power of the godless hordes!

  16. #16 Dennis N
    May 30, 2008

    #13, sounds like tyranny of the majority. Don’t we have some document or something to protect us from that? People really, really need to be educated about concepts like that.

  17. #17 Vernon Balbert
    May 30, 2008

    As of 0720 PDT:

    3.7% Yes
    96.3% No

  18. #18 Greg Esres
    May 30, 2008

    Would you believe that right now 31% are saying “yes”? They like car salesmen who discriminate.

    This surprises you? Anti-anti-Christianity has always been popular. “The enemy of my enemy is my friend.”

  19. #19 freelunch
    May 30, 2008

    Apparently Mr. Kieffe didn’t bother to read the gospels. His behavior was repeatedly condemned by Jesus. Of course, Mr. Kieffe is selling cars and this is just his marketing program. There’s no reason to think that he cares about religion at all.

  20. #20 gasper_k
    May 30, 2008

    It’s a good bad example, but I’ve never seen a poll that would present enough options. :)

  21. #21 Greg Esres
    May 30, 2008

    3.7% Yes
    96.3% No

    We probably ought not to make it so one-sided, because that sets off alarm bells that it’s being rigged. A closer vote might make enough people to think it’s legit and reevaluate their own positions with respect to the “majority”.

  22. #22 Lynnai
    May 30, 2008

    Well the poll has issues as I can’t get to it.

    It might just be discriminating agianst Linux users.

  23. #23 Geoffrey Alexander
    May 30, 2008

    @ Greg

    It would be rigged only if our responses weren’t tallied. A lopsided response is wholly legitimate, and only reflects the bias of the question.

  24. #24 GS
    May 30, 2008

    @PZ: Please can you fix your “Infidel quotes” link? It points to your old (?) blog site pharyngula.org which doesn’t seem to be active anymore.

  25. #25 Zifnab
    May 30, 2008

    I can’t find it and I’m too lazy to keep looking it up, but there’s an old post on Kungfu Monkey that posits approximately 15% of the any given population is batshit fucking insane. This was hypothesized to explain how Allen Keyes got 28% of the vote in Illinois against Barack Obama and how George Bush continues to maintain about a 25-30% approval rating no matter what new clusterfuck or idiocy he embarks upon.

    Once you factor out those people who are blue / red dogs for their cause, those people who still directly benefit from an absurd policy, and those people who will just vote stupid because they like giving screwball answers, you’re left with a core of support that shouldn’t be allowed to handle sharp objects or floss its own teeth without supervision.

    That 31% statistic, therefore, sounds about right. I’m fairly convinced that 2 out of 3 ain’t bad, and I’d be generally more concerned if this poll approached 40/60 or – god forbid – 50/50.

  26. #26 JustAnotherApe
    May 30, 2008

    I think the 31% should “shut up and sit down”!

  27. #27 Etha Williams
    May 30, 2008

    Poll doesn’t show up when I use Firefox, but it’s fine on Safari.

  28. #28 Carlie
    May 30, 2008

    97.8% to 2.2% now. The hordes have spoken!

  29. #29 Jo
    May 30, 2008

    97.8% no after my vote…

  30. #30 Zeno
    May 30, 2008

    “Yes” is now down to 2.2%. Prepare for a news article on how godless minions are denying Kern county residents the opportunity to fully express their bigotry.

  31. #31 CalGeorge
    May 30, 2008

    31%.

    Must be the bitter people who turn to religion and guns and Fords.

  32. #32 Mikkle
    May 30, 2008

    I wonder if Mr. Kieffe would re-evaluate his attitude that the minority should “sit down and shut up” in the face of majority opinion were he to read the results of this poll.

  33. #33 Ryan
    May 30, 2008

    Since this is poll is on a news station, and they usually show poll results during a broadcast, does anyone live near there who could capture the video?

    I think it’d be hilarious to create a link collecting the results of the polls we “tinker with.” I just imagine tons of news anchors saying, “And here’s our latest web poll … DO YOU THINK GOD EXISTS? And the results are quite stunning. 98% of people say that he does not …. wow.”

  34. #34 Jorge666
    May 30, 2008

    Down to 2 and a fraction now…

    Had to leave them a little “love” note – like it would make any difference, but what the hell.

    Does the Kieffe and Sons Ford ad make you want to buy a car from the dealership?

    I had to answer NO since I don’t buy anything from self professed bigots. At least with the ad, I know where NOT to go.

    The ad was the epitome of bad taste in a state and country that was founded on the principles of equality. I would think that broadcasters would have more ethics than to air this trash. I know times are hard and getting harder but broadcasters just CAN’T be that hard up for advertising to accept crap like that.

    Thank you for your time,

  35. #35 WRMartin
    May 30, 2008

    10:56am ET and No is at 98%.
    Rick Kieffe can suck it.

  36. #36 gex
    May 30, 2008

    “It might just be discriminating agianst Linux users.”

    Listen, I happen to think that it is unfair for the majority of Windows users to have to create web sites that work for Linux users. Why should we, the majority, countenance your existence, much less make adjustments that allow you to participate in society and culture?

    ;)

  37. #37 Mikey M
    May 30, 2008

    “We feel that one child shouldn’t keep the other 29 children in class from saying the pledge of allegiance.”

    One child isn’t keeping other children from saying the pledge. One child is challenging the state’s policy of forcing everyone to say the pledge.

  38. #38 raven
    May 30, 2008

    I can’t find it and I’m too lazy to keep looking it up, but there’s an old post on Kungfu Monkey that posits approximately 15% of the any given population is batshit fucking insane.

    True. 20% of the US population believes the sun orbits the earth, 26% of the fundies. This is 400 years after Copernicus and Galileo.

    This tells you that 20% of the population will believe anything no matter how stupid it is. Bush’s approval rating is 30% so 20% of that 30% would approve of him even if he turned out to be the Sith Lord. Which is silly, everyone knows it is Darth Cheney.

    Part of is the fact that the median IQ is 100. There are tens of millions of IQ 70s and 80s running around.

    And 1% of the population is psychotic, mostly SZ. Three million psychotics in the USA.

  39. #39 Adrian Mos
    May 30, 2008

    Right now, with my vote, it weas down to 1.7%.

    The answer would be “Yes, I can believe 31% voted “yes”. I can also believe that 20% are still supporting George W. Bush or the “peace-bringing” missions in Iraq and Afghanistan. I can also believe that 20% of the population actrually hate people who don’t think like them.”

  40. #40 Adrian Mos
    May 30, 2008

    by the way, this:
    [blockquote]Part of is the fact that the median IQ is 100. There are tens of millions of IQ 70s and 80s running around.[/blockquote]
    …reminded me of George Carlin’s quote:

    “Think about how stupid the average American is, and then think that half of them are stupider than that!”

    (no offense)

  41. #41 Cooper
    May 30, 2008

    Doesn’t surprise me at all. It’s easy to get people riled with a false dichotomy (official Christianity or no Christianity at all).

  42. #42 Mena
    May 30, 2008

    Zifnab @25, I didn’t look at the election results for that but I suspect that a lot of Alan Keyes’ support came from Dupage county. It’s not that the people around here are insane as much as they are dumb. Not just dumb but rock-with-lips dumb. They seem to vote Republican first and ask questions later. Oh, what am I thinking. This is the land of Wheaton College, they don’t ask questions *ever*. I think that it’s a combination of dumb and the GoOPers telling them what they want to hear about gays and god while most of them really do believe that they are in the economic class that the party is pandering to. Yes, there’s a fair bit of wealth here but it’s at best upper middle class. They are too poor to really benefit from the tax cuts but don’t realize it. This area is notorious for voting Republican and having had Reagan, Bush, Dole, etc come here for fairly large fund raising events at College of Dupage. As for CoD, don’t even get me started about how a college shouldn’t cancel classes for the day just because of something like that and they shouldn’t close half of the scant parking spaces there because they want money from someone who wants to hold a car show. This area is just bizarre, a greedy knuckle dragger heaven.

  43. #43 Chris
    May 30, 2008

    Yes is now down to 1.7%

  44. #44 tsg
    May 30, 2008

    I can’t find it and I’m too lazy to keep looking it up, but there’s an old post on Kungfu Monkey that posits approximately 15% of the any given population is batshit fucking insane. This was hypothesized to explain how Allen Keyes got 28% of the vote in Illinois against Barack Obama and how George Bush continues to maintain about a 25-30% approval rating no matter what new clusterfuck or idiocy he embarks upon.

    There is a hypothesis in statistics that says no matter how ridiculous any given response is, at least 6% of those polled will choose it.

  45. #45 wÒÓ†
    May 30, 2008
  46. #46 Muffin
    May 30, 2008

    1.6% Yes
    98.4% No

  47. #47 Elwood Herring
    May 30, 2008

    There’s always plenty of ding-dongs at the extremes of every bell curve.

  48. #48 Kimpatsu
    May 30, 2008

    98.5%.
    Pity we can’t actually make it 100%…

  49. #49 Badjuggler
    May 30, 2008

    “Well the poll has issues as I can’t get to it.

    It might just be discriminating agianst Linux users.”

    Or against poor spellers…

  50. #50 Cyrus
    May 30, 2008

    Well now I feel kinda guilty. Geez. A local news station posts a poll about a stupid local controversy to gin up a little Web site activity, and it gets mobbed by blog readers, shifted to a 1.7-98.3 vote? Not like anyone expects Web site polls to be accurate, but that’s ridiculous.

    I can’t find it and I’m too lazy to keep looking it up, but there’s an old post on Kungfu Monkey that posits approximately 15% of the any given population is batshit fucking insane.

    The crazification factor is 27 percent, based on the percent of Illinois residents who voted for Keyes, like you said.

    I think Bush’s approval ratings have been below that in some recent polls. The most likely explanation is that the crazification factor isn’t exactly right, of course, and there’s no guarantee that those polls are definitive, but I find it more amusing to assume that some people are supporting the Democratic candidate for crazy reasons, and/or some crazy people have deserted Bush because he hasn’t been horrible enough.

  51. #51 Sastra
    May 30, 2008

    The car dealership was apparently working on the same sort of reasoning which got PZ Myers expelled from Expelled:

    “Atheists are telling good people to shut up and get out. So when we tell THEM to shut up/get out, we’re not being bigots. THEY are the bigots. We’re just fighting back doing the same thing to them that they do to us, to show them by example what they’re doing to us, so they can see it’s wrong.”

    Atheists “won’t let” Creationists publish their science. Atheists “won’t let” Christians say their prayers. Larger issues having to do with the process of science or governmental intrusion are lost under the superficial ‘look’ of the thing, which is, of course, mistaken for the actual truth.

    As they see it, the persecuted were just fighting back. Gee, what’s all the fuss? Well, okay, we did wrong. Technically. But it sounds bad only if you don’t know the back story — which involves the deeper truth about how it appears on the surface to the shallow.

  52. #52 minusRusty
    May 30, 2008

    There is a hypothesis in statistics that says no matter how ridiculous any given response is, at least 6% of those polled will choose it.

    My H.S. girlfriend was doing a poll for school at a local McDonald’s one time when I showed up, so naturally, she asked me to participate. But before she asked the questions, her instructions to me were to answer the questions as if they were relating to sex.

    Needless to say, she got some pretty unusual answers…

  53. #53 AJ Milne
    May 30, 2008

    Heh. Just posting to say I clicked over there without reading the responses. And when I saw that 98.5% ‘No’, I actually laughed out loud.

  54. #54 JJR
    May 30, 2008

    I would not buy a Ford from ANY dealership, least of all theirs.

    Slightly OT, I was thinking about some of the car give-away contests I’ve seen of late at festivals, on local TV, etc; it’s always a 2-seater sports car or an SUV…why not a sensible car you could actually use, like a Honda Civic Hybrid?

  55. #55 Lord Zero
    May 30, 2008

    98,8 now. Anyway the ad was cheap… most people
    would dislike it, but very few would boicot them for
    having that superb level of stupidity anyway.
    At last they were forced to a apology, fake but better
    than nothing… in fact im concern with the fact than
    the people group who make them change could be non-cristian
    religious groups… jews and muslims… not we atheists…

  56. #56 Moses
    May 30, 2008

    The heathens are up to 98.5% “no.”

  57. #57 The Young Linguist
    May 30, 2008

    As I pointed out on my own blog, I think the ad was meant as a sort of joke.

  58. #58 Carl
    May 30, 2008

    I like my car salesmen to be discriminating. At least, when it comes to cars.

  59. #59 Suze
    May 30, 2008

    I think the better poll question would have been, “Do you believe that The Rapture will force your Kieffe and Sons Ford truck to be Left Behind?”

  60. #60 Nentuaby
    May 30, 2008

    Oh joy. I didn’t even have to crash it.

    That’s my home town news. :-|

  61. #61 Dustin
    May 30, 2008

    Ouch. That little poll didn’t stand a chance. I almost feel sorry for it.

  62. #62 Phaedrus
    May 30, 2008

    Hey, it let’s you vote more than once… I reject cookies, though, might make a difference

  63. #63 SteveM
    May 30, 2008

    As I pointed out on my own blog, I think the ad was meant as a sort of joke.

    So is that a free pass? It is not unreasonable to judge someone by the jokes they choose to tell. Also, even as a joke, it is an epic failure. There was absolutely no clue that it was meant as a joke.

  64. #64 Ryan F Stello
    May 30, 2008

    SteveM (#63) pointed out,

    There was absolutely no clue that it was meant as a joke.

    And when given his time to clarify in the interview, he basically said the exact same thing. It’s safe to say he was serious.

    Say, does anybody know why bloggers sometimes reference their own points in defense of their own points?

  65. #65 Helen of Troy
    May 30, 2008

    I’ve got to admit that I love crashing these polls, it makes me feel like I belong, and it’s an amusing thought that there are votes coming in from such a far away corner of the world.

  66. #66 Dahan
    May 30, 2008

    Currently at 98.8% “No” and 1.2% “Yes”. Not bad, but we need to be able to say that “Ninety-nine percent disapprove.” It just sounds better that way.

  67. #67 dave
    May 30, 2008

    1.2% for stupid, 98.8% for not-stupid.

  68. #68 MikeM
    May 30, 2008

    I think the 31% had statistical significance, and if I’m right, it’s bad news for them.

    The original ad said that 86% who believe in a spirit world have the right to tell the 14% of us who are heathens to keep quiet in our murky corners. However, I think that 86% who believe in ghosts is probably more like 31%. The other 69% of us are saving 10% on Sundays.

    I think it’s actually them, not us, who live in the murky corner, and that there are far fewer of them than they think, even in a conservative place like Mojave.

    By the way, I voted no. I’ve bought many cars in my life, and religion has never entered the picture when I’ve been negotiating with a salesperson. If it did come up, I’m sure I’d get up and leave. I have bought from people who I suspect were not Christian, and I don’t care. It’s a business transaction, not a prayer meeting (and if it became a prayer meeting, that meeting would end in a hurry, probably with a panicked car salesperson begging me to stay).

  69. #69 Skepdude
    May 30, 2008

    Happy to report that yet another stupid poll has been successfully crashed by your minions, oh Great Dark Lord! :)

  70. #70 Dustin
    May 30, 2008

    So is that a free pass? It is not unreasonable to judge someone by the jokes they choose to tell. Also, even as a joke, it is an epic failure. There was absolutely no clue that it was meant as a joke.

    The Coulter defense is lame, anyway.

  71. #71 ClemsonPoker
    May 30, 2008

    My only surprise is that it’s not higher.

  72. #72 John Phillips, FCD
    May 30, 2008

    Friday wouldn’t be the same anymore without a stoopid poll to crash :)

    By your command.

  73. #73 Andres Villarreal
    May 30, 2008

    All Internet polls are pathetic!

    The most basic requirement for any poll is that the sample of the population has to be carefully selected so that it is truly random.

    Giving importance to the worst polls makes the very bad polls seem acceptable, but they are not.

    I would prefer to see this great blog as a means to teach some statistics to its readers.

  74. #74 woozy
    May 30, 2008

    “As I pointed out on my own blog, I think the ad was meant as a sort of joke.”

    Please clarify. Do you mean it was a joke satirizing fundies, or a joke by a fundie cheering themselves on.

    If the former, you are unfortionately mistaken. They have run conservative “patriotic” ads in the past very similar in sentiment as this one appears to be. Also, the dealership claims to agree with the sentiment of the ad.

    If you mean the latter. Well, of course it was a joke. Expressing an opinion through a joke, a homily, or a straightforward statement doesn’t change its meaning or intent.

  75. #75 Cathy in Seattle
    May 30, 2008

    tHE POLL’S AT 98.2 (No) to 1.8 (Yes).

    Way to tip the poll, you heathens!

    ;-)

  76. #76 michael
    May 30, 2008

    there isn’t an option for ‘no, i live in pennsylvania so it’s not an issue’ either, but since it’s a stupid internet poll i’m not sure i can muster up the effort to feel disenfranchised, much less give a crap about it.

  77. #77 Akheloios
    May 30, 2008

    Pity we can’t actually make it 100%…

    Why can’t we? Surely if enough people go there and vote right this minute, we can do it!

    Who says the US is an Irony free zone?

  78. #78 noncarborundum
    May 30, 2008

    1.2 yes
    98.8 no

    No trips from MA to buy a Ford in CA for me!

  79. #79 Dustin
    May 30, 2008

    Since this poll has been crushed, it’s probably a good time to point out that William Dembski’s Amazon reviews have far too many helpful votes.

  80. #80 David Marjanovi?, OM
    May 30, 2008

    Giving importance to the worst polls makes the very bad polls seem acceptable

    O RLY?

  81. #81 cath
    May 30, 2008

    This poll-crashing business is not only fun, but also educational. Who among us will believe any results from a web poll ever again?

  82. #82 Cujo359
    May 30, 2008

    I’ll just blurt this out without reading all the comments – I’m absolutely sure there are lots of Christians who would be happy to buy from these folks. In fact, it’s obvious. Most of those folks who work themselves into a snit because they can’t lead prayers at public schools, can’t post the Ten Commandments in court buildings, or can’t have the town square all to themeselves at Christmas without sharing some space with Muslims or Pagans are absolutely fine with the idea.

    Are they the majority? I don’t know. They’re certainly the most annoying Christians, so I probably notice them more. I’d no more trust my own instincts on that question than I’d trust an Internet poll. But they’re out there, and they’re numerous.

  83. #83 Yoeruek
    May 30, 2008

    …or can’t have the town square all to themeselves at Christmas without sharing some space with Muslims or

    Pagans

    are absolutely fine with the idea.

    As I´m not sure, could someone provide me with a case sensitive description of “Pagan”? Maybe “outsiders of other believes”?

    Thanks

  84. #84 NRK
    May 30, 2008

    FORD….Found On Roadside Dead

  85. #85 silkworm
    May 30, 2008

    What would happen if a car dealership advertised itself as atheist?

  86. #86 Ryan Boehning
    May 30, 2008

    sigh…that’s my local TV news station.

  87. #87 Ryan
    May 30, 2008

    Ryan Boehning, YOU NEED TO WATCH AND SEE IF THEY REPORT ON THIS. Try to capture it, and if you can’t at least report back.

  88. #88 Damned at Random
    May 31, 2008

    I used to live in Ridgecrest CA, 45 min from Kiefe and Sons – my stepdaughter bought an Escape hybrid from them two years ago. I always thought his hokey, down-home ads were an insult to his customer base- lots of engineers and scientists employed by two big military reseaerch and development facilities at Edwards Air Force Base and China Lake Naval Air Warfare Center.

    Maybe its like those head-on ads- memorable for being annoying. But they pushed it too far this time

  89. #89 Anna Lemma
    May 31, 2008

    The poll is now at 98.8% no and 1.2% yes.

  90. #90 Charlie Foxtrot
    May 31, 2008

    I may live in Melbourne, Australia – and in all probability will never buy a Ford (1), let alone one from a dealership in California – but I reckon I have every right to answer this poll (2). This dealership put its ad out in the public domain, I have heard it, and now someone has asked “Did it work?” … my honest answer is ‘No’ (3). The point of the question is not “Can I buy a Ford from these godbots?” but “Would I buy a Ford from these godbots?”.

    (1) Much prefer Nissans – every time!
    (2) Not that this is usually required for a poll-crash.
    (3) (%98.9 – %1.1 now)

  91. #91 Mr.K.A.T.
    May 31, 2008

    They like car salesmen who discriminate.
    What about if.. ..christian customers starts to discriminate ?
    1)All atheists around the world starts to bolster how _____ car is especially good.
    2)Sales .. collapse due to discrimination of fundies ?

  92. #92 Jaycubed
    May 31, 2008

    “I used to live in Ridgecrest CA, 45 min from Kiefe and Sons – my stepdaughter bought an Escape hybrid from them two years ago. I always thought his hokey, down-home ads were an insult to his customer base- lots of engineers and scientists employed by two big military reseaerch and development facilities at Edwards Air Force Base and China Lake Naval Air Warfare Center.
    Maybe its like those head-on ads- memorable for being annoying. But they pushed it too far this time
    Posted by: Damned at Random’

    I follow Feynman’s Rule of Advertising.

    If the advertising offends you, Don’t buy the company’s products.

    I also follow my own rule: advertising offends me so I don’t watch it unless I am staying in a hotel (have to keep up with tricks, & it’s amazing what you can learn about local economics & politics just by channel flipping).

    Ps. Watching the changing hairlines of local bankruptcy attorneys or car dealers in constantly recycled commercials is more entertaining than almost any standard or Premium TV fare.
    .

  93. #93 Ediacaran
    June 1, 2008

    “A new poll shows that 66% of Americans think President Bush is doing a poor job on the War in Iraq. And the remaining 34% think Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church.” –Tina Fey, Saturday Night Live

    What, Adam and Eve didn’t drive Fords?!?

    Maybe they drove a Model T. Rex.

  94. #94 Adrian Mos
    June 2, 2008

    “A new poll shows that 66% of Americans think President Bush is doing a poor job on the War in Iraq. And the remaining 34% think Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church.” –Tina Fey, Saturday Night Live

    What, Adam and Eve didn’t drive Fords?!?

    Maybe they drove a Model T. Rex.

    Good one.

    Could I as well presume they were just visiting the Bedrock church?

    Or that even some, who were farther away from that, flew in on a non-transitional Archaeopteryx plane ?

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