…and this is a 
A weird poll to crash
Category: Godlessness
Posted on: May 24, 2008 8:58 AM, by PZ Myers
There's a whole site dedicated to polling visitors on one question: Do you believe in God?. Just as it is, it's a testimonial to the worthlessness of internet polls (100% of the residents of Saint Lucia are atheists! n=1), so it seems superfluous to send the Atheist Legion in, but hey, go ahead, push this poll towards more disbelief. As a special bonus, if you come from a small country you'll be able to wield greater unrepresentative power!
Comments
Baseline:
US - 52% yes, 48% no with 13,420 votes
UK - 37% yes, 63% no with 3,011 votes
Posted by: Wicked Lad | May 24, 2008 9:03 AM
I hate bifurcated polls.
Posted by: danley | May 24, 2008 9:08 AM
I like "Yes" / "No." Better than having a 5 point Likert scale between "God talks to me every day," and "There is no God," with "Show me the evidence" at 4 and "Not sure" at 3.
Just like asking a man if he has sex with men is a much better question than asking him if he is gay with "wide stance" at 3.
Posted by: inkadu | May 24, 2008 9:14 AM
Forget St. Lucia. 50% of the Vatican are athiests. I'd say that's a result!
Posted by: JB | May 24, 2008 9:19 AM
Speaking of wide stances.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 24, 2008 9:20 AM
Well hey, personally I find it a great resource to find a country's flag. All nicely together in one place. With the chance to bias a stupid internet poll as bonus. What's not to like!
Posted by: Johnny Vector | May 24, 2008 9:38 AM
The funny thing, of course, is that you can't choose your country. The site recognizes where you are. This was not some prankster, this was really someone sitting in .va.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | May 24, 2008 9:48 AM
If you feel like freeping a stupid poll you could do worse than http://countryaboveself.com/ . Did the USans amongst you know that Alberto Gonzalez is your greatest patriot?
They do explicitly reserve the right to ignore your vote if the consider it "obnoxious" (i.e. non-wingnutted) so you might want to be subtle
Posted by: Matt Heath | May 24, 2008 9:52 AM
Which is to say, someone who's visible IP address traced back to .va - in other words, it probably was some prankster, just a technically proficient one. Or a tourist, perhaps, checking their e-mail and having a bit of a laugh.
Posted by: Bonechar | May 24, 2008 9:54 AM
David @ # 7, how do you know This was not some prankster, this was really someone sitting in .va. ? It could've been the Pope that voted. And maybe he's the prankster, & not the feckin' edjit we think he is? Maybe he only pretends to believe all that Catholic crap? And one day he'll strike a blow fro Reason, & tell the faithfull that his feckin' Church has been deceiving them.
One can only hope.
Posted by: Richard Harris | May 24, 2008 10:03 AM
Im moving to the Caymans......
100% atheists,yay !!
Posted by: clinteas | May 24, 2008 10:06 AM
Two thirds no where I come from... :D
as for that wingnut poll...
*checks out site*
My eyes! The goggles, they do nothing!
Posted by: wazza | May 24, 2008 10:14 AM
In other news, John McCain boots John Hagee and Rod Parsley out of his big tent. Could this be a sign that the Senator does have a shred of integrity left?
Posted by: Kseniya | May 24, 2008 10:22 AM
Its a sign that someone read him a poll and suggested it would be of benefit to him to distance himself from them......
Posted by: clinteas | May 24, 2008 10:26 AM
It would be nice if they at least mentioned which god they are talking about and what attributes he is supposed to have.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | May 24, 2008 10:30 AM
Clinteas, that is a plausible and parsimonious explanation.
Posted by: Kseniya | May 24, 2008 10:34 AM
In other news, John McCain boots John Hagee and Rod Parsley out of his big tent. Could this be a sign that the Senator does have a shred of integrity left?
No, just that he realizes that continuing to surround oneself with people who think that Hitler was sent on a mission from God is the kind of thing which is rather a poor choice in an election, even when one is running as a Republican.
He'd continue to stand by Hagee and Parsley if their comments hadn't become so inconveniently public.
Posted by: Nullifidian | May 24, 2008 10:36 AM
Interland?? Wherever that is, they have 1440 votes so far (51% yes, 49% no).
Posted by: ehoffman | May 24, 2008 10:43 AM
Where "crash" is the optimal word.
Those poor yesnogod.com servers.
Posted by: falterer | May 24, 2008 10:44 AM
One odd thing, the list of countries appears to be alphabetized by non-english rules.
Spain is between Egypt and Ethiopia (España.)
Switzerland is right after Canada.
Sri Lanka is next to Lithuania.
U.K. in the G's (Great Britain).
Posted by: dsmccoy | May 24, 2008 10:47 AM
Yay! My home country, Estonia, seems to have the highest 'No' rate, when looking at countries with over 5 votes.
71% (though i believe this should be higher, because atheist normally do not surf the internet for the sole reason of answering god polls (with the exception of PZ :) )
Posted by: kuratkull | May 24, 2008 10:49 AM
Most countries with over 1000 votes have a massive percentage of atheists, I must say. Not often a majority, of course, but with the minimum at 24% and rapidly going up (Mexico at 36% NO, yay!) this is a rather impressive showing. I mean, the US is at 50/50 but people who outright reject god in the overall population is probably more like 10 - 15 %. So this means that (roughly) people on the internet are far FAR more likely to be atheists, no matter the general religiosity of their home countries.
I dunno, I kinda like that, the internet is growing obscenely at the cost of other communication media, so as more people migrate here maybe they might find their faith challenged and de-convert.
I do agree with PZ that internet polls are mostly stupid, but they do have a tiny smidgeon of truth value, which in this case might be encouraging.
Posted by: Santiago | May 24, 2008 11:01 AM
How odd. Hard to imagine that some fundie leaders are so lame and evil that even McCain can't afford to be seen with them.
OT sort of. I just got an email from a friend this morning. She was laid off from her job in the housing industry for obvious reasons. She is panicking because gas is $4.00/gallon and she can barely afford to pay it. I don't think she is going to vote Theopublican this year.
Posted by: raven | May 24, 2008 11:33 AM
We are legion... US now at 51% saying "No".
Nimibia is 100% Atheist also. All one of them.
This really is a very silly poll.
Posted by: Dahan | May 24, 2008 11:42 AM
Sure, it is a skewed demographic. Are there religious equivalents to PZ in popularity pointing at this poll from the myriad faiths around the world? Doubtful.
However, at least when you read it you can see a bit of a breakdown. The numbers here in the Great White North feel encouraging.
Ahh, Saturday morning. Sleeping in, drinking coffee, and living in a country with 64% atheists. It's a dream.
Posted by: The Flying Trilobite | May 24, 2008 12:05 PM
Yes, go Oceania. I had to bolster the UK/Europe but good to see the folks back home are just as sensible. No essential difference between Aus and NZ either.
Posted by: Peter Ashby | May 24, 2008 12:12 PM
The bastarding site wont let me ruddy vote!
Meh, not that I really need to. Atheists are ahead 65/35 in my country.
Posted by: Paul | May 24, 2008 12:13 PM
And it's now wonder we've always been at war with Oceania.
Posted by: inkadu | May 24, 2008 12:16 PM
ISO? The Helvetian Confederation is .ch so as to offend all four official languages equally and the official ISO 3166 for the UK is GB, even though .uk is used as their internet TLD.
Wikipedia knows all.
Posted by: freelunch | May 24, 2008 12:19 PM
#20 - I think it's alphabetized by domain. Switzerland, for example, is .ch, which would come right after .ca for Canada
Posted by: Paper Hand | May 24, 2008 12:29 PM
Mmmm... Africa 80% Yes/20% No. Why am I not surprised? Africa must be the most superstitious continent. South Africa is the most modern developed country in Africa, yet we have two witchdoctors as members of parliament. No, I kid you not! Two of our sitting MPs are witchdoctors...they wear inflated goat-bladders on their heads...
Posted by: Valis | May 24, 2008 12:33 PM
Posted by: me | May 24, 2008 12:40 PM
Hagee was right about one thing. Hitler himself believed he was fulfilling the will of God by exterminating the Jews - an embarrassing little fact that I love to shove down the throats of Christians.
Posted by: silkworm | May 24, 2008 12:40 PM
Two of our sitting MPs are witchdoctors...they wear inflated goat-bladders on their heads...
Do their goat bladders tell them to get involved in pointless wars?
If not, consider yourself lucky to be a South African.
Posted by: inkadu | May 24, 2008 12:49 PM
Damn, in retrospect I should have nominated Clinton Dawkins.
Posted by: me | May 24, 2008 12:50 PM
Woo-Hoo! My country, Canada, at 64% unbelief!
Now if we can just get rid of our Prime Minister Stephen Harper . . .
Posted by: Hairhead | May 24, 2008 1:04 PM
"Do their goat bladders tell them to get involved in pointless wars?
If not, consider yourself lucky to be a South African."
Well, we have the highest murder rate in Africa, outside of a war zone. There are so many problems we have to cope with, I hesitate to go into it on this forum. Suffice it to say, our future president believes taking a shower cures AIDS. His signature song is "Umshini Wami", which translates to "Bring me my machine gun". He has also said; " The ANC will rule until Jesus comes back"....
Posted by: Valis | May 24, 2008 1:12 PM
Someone should do a study to see if there are more atheists online then religious people, because it sure seems that way. Maybe there is a connection with using the internet and becoming an atheist, would be interesting to see if that were true.
Posted by: Dave UH | May 24, 2008 1:18 PM
My own country of Norway has a assuring lead of 71% who don't believe in God.
Posted by: Haakon | May 24, 2008 1:23 PM
Re: Interland
Geo-IP mapping is not exact, it relies on a database mapping blocks of IP addresses to countries, but IP addresses are not entirely allocated on that basis. Many large blocks are allocated to companies who move parts of their allocations from one country to another. There was a period of time when anyone in Microsoft or IBM in Ireland appeared to come from the USA before the database got updated to reflect the internal allocations within those companies.
There are/were errors in the most popular database (GeoIP) because of the way the data is gathered. For example, some data mined from RIPE used "NI" to refer to Northern Ireland (the data is user-entered and "NI" is commonly used as an abbreviation for Northern Ireland in both the UK and Ireland), but it's actually the TLD for Nicaragua, so many people in Northern Ireland showed up as being in Nicaragua.
The geographical location of some IP address ranges is unknown because where they have been allocated to by their owners is not known. This may be true because the address owners don't want it to be known (intelligence, military) or simply because the database compilers couldn't find the info anywhere. It's likely that this is what "Interland" means.
Some geo-ip databases are better than others. Most are at "very high nineties" accurate, but none is 100% accurate.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | May 24, 2008 1:24 PM
'Someone should do a study to see if there are more atheists online then religious people, because it sure seems that way. Maybe there is a connection with using the internet and becoming an atheist, would be interesting to see if that were true."
I think more educated and literate people use the internet than otherwise. There is a direct correlation between education and literacy and atheism IMHO. With the exception of the USA of course...
Posted by: Valis | May 24, 2008 1:43 PM
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | May 24, 2008 1:52 PM
"There is considerable evidence that both measured IQ and level of educational attainment are positively correlated with atheism, so (nitpick) it's not a matter of opinion. "
Agreed. Was just covering all my bases here :-)
Posted by: Valis | May 24, 2008 1:56 PM
"The Atheist Legion", aw, that made me feel warm and fuzzy in my soulless, mechanical valve pump (although to be specific my valve pump only felt warm and fuzzy as a by-product of chemical fluctuations in my behavioural motivator circuiting).
It's funnier when you know the context; Saruman means "Man of Skill" in Sindarin and he was intended by Tolkien to represent the over-reach of science.
Posted by: JM Inc. | May 24, 2008 2:00 PM
Besides, 65% disbelief is pretty good for a snowball. Oh Canada, my home and native land!
Posted by: JM Inc. | May 24, 2008 2:06 PM
I'm only saying it wasn't some American or someone else from a secular country who wanted to have fun at the Vatican's expense. B-}
LOL!
LOL! It's a sign he has a shred of fear left! Having understood that he has -- against all expectations -- misundreshtmated the average intelligence of the US public, he turns his coat once again and backpedals, lest Obama utterly pwn him.
Of course, in this particular case, this is better than if he had a shred of integrity left.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | May 24, 2008 2:14 PM
As of 2:44 EST, The Vatican City is at 50/50?
You'd think that would be a bastion of 100%.
Posted by: Umbo | May 24, 2008 2:45 PM
I think the question should really be "Do you believe in A god (or gods)?"
My experience with religious people has taught me to assume that whenever I hear the question "Do you believe in god", I must interpret it as "Do you believe in MY god?" - and as I reckon every single person on the planet has a different idea what "god" actually means, the only honest answer always has to be "no". i.e.: Do I go along with whatever personal delusion you (who are asking me that question) happen to base your life around? Absolutely not.
Posted by: Elwood Herring | May 24, 2008 2:48 PM
Matt @ 8:
What a find!
I cast votes to condemn Olbermann, Maher, and Moyers.
Posted by: Beth B. | May 24, 2008 3:21 PM
Go Samoa!!!
Posted by: Gus C | May 24, 2008 4:15 PM
Hey, this poll is missing a "Hell No!" button. Doesn't that skew the results a smidgen?
Posted by: not completely useless | May 24, 2008 4:24 PM
Faroe Islands 100% no! Yay :D
(Long time lurker, just had to say that)
Posted by: Queequeg | May 24, 2008 4:44 PM
Yes, "interland" is just a word for "we have no idea where the hell you are." When I was in my apartment using my comcast connection, I was correctly mapped as being in the United States, but the Randolph St Chicago Argo Tea location, which uses Webbeams internet, is in "interland."
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 24, 2008 5:07 PM
@#8 Matt Heath --
I like their bio of Stephen Colbert (who is nominated as a "patriot"):
It's hard to tell whether this is meant satirically, but I'm going to give them the benefit of the doubt.
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 24, 2008 5:12 PM
This poll, "Do you believe in God" is just plain silly.
Push these polls into silliness; Do you believe in "God" or "god" or "a God" or "a god" or "Goddess" or "goddess" or a "Goddess" or "a goddess" or ...? WTF ever!
May His or his or Hers or hers squiggly appendage never wrap around your neck.
RAMEN
Posted by: LeeLeeOne | May 24, 2008 5:44 PM
Interland is 1/2 a light year East of Uranus
Posted by: rt | May 24, 2008 6:30 PM
It is hard to believe that Atheists on here can be so fundamental about their beliefs that they would have to do something like this to get any kind of victories in their lives.
Dawkins provides damage control and says this is passion. It's not passion at all. It is being a fundamentalist for your cause. This is not rational, but irrational behavior.
Posted by: Kenny | May 24, 2008 8:24 PM
Blah, Blah, Blah, Kenny, Blah, Blah, Blah...yawn
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | May 24, 2008 8:36 PM
Would have liked to leave the vote for Australia poised at 666, but had to weigh in. I guess that makes me [cue drumroll] the neighbour of the beast?
Posted by: Paul | May 24, 2008 9:04 PM
As a literary aside, Kenny's comments make me think of Mark Twain's quote:
Posted by: Betz | May 24, 2008 10:34 PM
OK, I give up. Just how do you vote on that page? The only live links I could find anywhere were to 3 links to the same page advertising pop 'surveys' and 2 email links to send the page to 'friends'.
Posted by: Katkinkate | May 24, 2008 10:52 PM
Once again kenny misses the point. Not that it shocks me, but it's nice to point out.
The point is Kenny, that these types of online polls are inherently bullshit and fucking with them like this is what they deserve because they prove nothing.
It's harmless fun messing with something that has zero worth.
You really are a myopic tight ass.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 24, 2008 11:28 PM
Well, if we're looking for "polls" to crash, we may as well put some votes in for Colbert on http://countryaboveself.com/ . The video of Colbert that's been linked to tells me that the person who nominated him must have been joking, but hey, it's fun anyway.
Posted by: Patrick Conley | May 25, 2008 12:17 AM
Actually that is a perfect way to wreck that moron poll.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 25, 2008 12:21 AM
The Kenny sez:
It is hard to believe that Atheists on here can be so fundamental about their beliefs that they would have to do something like this to get any kind of victories in their lives.
Cartman: "I hate hippies! I mean, the way they always talk about "protectin' the earth" and then drive around in cars that get poor gas mileage and wear those stupid bracelets - I hate 'em! I wanna kick 'em in the nuts!"
I judge that close enough to be worth 2 pts.
challenges?
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 25, 2008 12:23 AM
gibbering idiot!
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 25, 2008 12:26 AM
now, let's see, on the drinking game front, any points in The Kenny's latest missive?
1 point for just posting.
ooh, 15 points for mentioning Dawkins.
16 points in one post. for those playing along, that's one over if you are going the liberal route, 4 under if going the conservative route.
translation:
one drink for me!
here's the rules for the drinking game again (ala Etha):
I think we should also add another one:
10 points for saying "atheist fundamentalist" or implying it (as in his last post).
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 25, 2008 12:31 AM
I thought there were immediate points for gibbering idiot. Humm. Well points or not, he is one.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 25, 2008 12:33 AM
gibbering idiot!
close, but I believe for full points it is correctly stated as:
"Kenny, you gabbling limpet!"
which of course means I get those 10 points.
;)
I wish there was a place to post "stickies", but until then, here's the rules for the "Win a Cartman Hat" contest:
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 25, 2008 12:36 AM
son of a..
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 25, 2008 12:38 AM
Okay, I've been out of the hacker loop for a while, but can't we flood their poll with hits from various remote IP addresses? Spoofing or proxies?
Posted by: wildcardjack | May 25, 2008 12:41 AM
..yeah, just to be clear, some of worked out two games to play with Kenny, one that has "winners" every night (the drinking game), and one that will have a single winner when all the points are tallied up at the end of the year (the Cartman Hat game).
those playing the drinking game have two options:
drink one for every 15 points tallied within Kenny's posts, or drink one for every 20 points (I'm going with 15 points, but when Kenny really gets going, it makes for a rather short night - and a large headache the next day).
Kseniya is the one who came up with the idea for the Cartman contest, so I'm happy letting her keep a running tally, and each person who posts should keep their own as well.
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 25, 2008 12:46 AM
Humm, seems I started the drinking game before he posted...
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 25, 2008 12:50 AM
Humm, seems I started the drinking game before he posted...
heh.
I started during the Celtics/Pistons game myself.
consider it a test of your durability...
or willingness to pay any attention at all to what The Kenny is saying.
:p
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 25, 2008 12:53 AM
I'm not yet familiar with this Kenny character, but something tells me I will be? It's a good thing there is already a drinking game established, as "atheist fundamentalist" as a phrase or implication makes me froth at the mouth in a way that can only be dealt with with liquor.
Posted by: intelekshual | May 25, 2008 1:13 AM
Malaysia fails :( Oceania rules tho
Posted by: John H | May 25, 2008 1:31 AM
OMG... what have I done?
Posted by: Kseniya | May 25, 2008 1:35 AM
OMG... what have I done?
heh.
a small price to pay, since you're here often enough.
;)
It's a good thing there is already a drinking game established, as "atheist fundamentalist" as a phrase or implication makes me froth at the mouth in a way that can only be dealt with with liquor.
indeed.
make sure to thank Etha when you see her. I'm just the messenger.
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 25, 2008 1:39 AM
oh, btw, for those unfamiliar with The Kenny:
http://www.google.com/cse?cx=017254414699180528062%3Auyrcvn__yd0&q=Kenny+site%3Ahttp%3A%2F%2Fscienceblogs.com%2Fpharyngula%2F&sa=Search
you can catch up with his antics on those pages.
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 25, 2008 1:40 AM
Oh dear. The Kenny is an interesting character, isn't he? Hm, well, they say variety is the spice of life.
Posted by: intelekshual | May 25, 2008 1:43 AM
Oh dear. While The Kenny was busy racking up points here, I was busy pregaming.
Well, I'll play by the liberal rules. One more drink for me.
(Also, I agree wrt atheist fundamentalist = 10 points. In which case it's a drink under either rule set.)
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 25, 2008 2:27 AM
Well, I'll play by the liberal rules. One more drink for me.
fortunately, he's been a little slow on the posting front tonight.
;)
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 25, 2008 3:00 AM
One place they do seem to believe in god is Washington D.C. Here is a report on 16th Street.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/05/23/AR2008052302750.html
"If 16th Street is famous for leading straight to the White House, it is also God's Boulevard, with at least 45 congregations lining the seven-mile stretch between Lafayette Square and Silver Spring."
Blogger Superfrenchie comments,
"There are 45 red dots. There are 85 blue dots. That's 130 churches, or more than 18 churches a mile. Put another way, that's one every 94 yards, or less than the length of a football field."
Posted by: bernarda | May 25, 2008 3:58 AM
>The point is Kenny, that these types of online polls are
>inherently bullshit and fucking with them like this is
>what they deserve because they prove nothing.
>
>It's harmless fun messing with something that has zero
>worth.
It doesn't matter what the excuse is to justify what you are doing. It is what it is.
>You really are a myopic tight ass.
No, I just don't like how people on here try to act like they are not fundamentalists and they are just as bad in many ways the religions that they put down.
If you have not learned common sense by now and how people are people no matter if they have a religion or if they have science as an excuse for their own religion.
People will act the same without religion or with it. With science or without it.
This entire crock of garbage that oh now I am enlightened because I follow something that isn't religion does not fly at all. Everyone has to bet on something and that is why Atheism really falls on faith. You have to have a lot of faith that God does not exist. I know faith is really like a curse word in here but it is true. Everyone on here is betting that there is no God. That is the entire point or there would be no Atheists in here.
Just to make sure you understand that when you die and you cross over to the next dimension you will not be an Atheist anymore. There are no dead Atheists. It doesn't matter that you don't believe in God, that will be a very nieve point of view. However, only a few of the ex-Atheists get second chances.
Those millions of people that have died and come back and told people that there is more over there is a warning and I honestly would take that warning seriously.
Look at it this way. If I am wrong and there is no God then you can laugh at me (more than you already do now) and I would have been a fool. However, no harm done and I die and go back into the ground.
However, if you are wrong and there is a God and you get judged by a fair and loving God and you were told but you choose not to believe well that is up to God, but judging from where these ex-atheists came from they ended up in Hell. You can laugh at the Bible all you want, but can you really afford to laugh at people that have died and experienced what it was like over there? Can you really seriously take that chance?
If I even thought there might be a chance of burning in Hell, I would take that chance and believe. I mean don't you people ever have any doubts about what you believe?
Sorry folks, I am not going to take that chance. I am not going to burn in Hell and I don't want anyone here to do that either.
Do Atheist ever have doubts about what they believe ever?
I am sure you have heard all of this before and you laugh and call them idiots, but can you afford to be wrong? Think about it rationally. Can you afford to be wrong? Just in case?
Here is a radio program with an ex-atheist
and a current atheist.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5Wt5Dl2zVc
Howard Storm had an NDE and was an atheist.
He also has a book that he wrote: My Descent into Death
Here is the book on Amazon:
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0385513763/qid=1115389542/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/103-5729478-3610235
Posted by: Kenny | May 25, 2008 4:10 AM
If I find out, when I die, that the heaven/eternal torment in hell model of religion actually is the reality I'd be very disappointed in the universe. There would be nothing the 'popular' christian vision of hell (stolen from the moslems by the way) could do to me that would be worse than the disappointment in the knowledge that the creator put all that effort into creating an infinite universe just to turn out to be such a juvenile delinquent.
Posted by: Katkinkate | May 25, 2008 4:36 AM
>If I find out, when I die, that the heaven/eternal torment
>in hell model of religion actually is the reality I'd be
>very disappointed in the universe.
Why? You had made a choice and blew it. That would be your decision. There is also more to life than just heaven and hell, there are other dimensions and probably other universes. Quantum physics with the String theory and membrane theory are already trying to prove that.
I admit if there is a Hell and I do believe there is just based on people who have seen the other side, then if you made the wrong choice you are probably not going to get to see the good stuff.
Like if I kill someone just because I was bored and not out of self defense, I probably won't see the outside of a jail cell for the rest of my natural life. The same for Hell, you deserve what you get. You reap what you sow.
However, if you do get to go to Heaven, you probaby can travel all over the place and not just to stay there. You can explore the universe as fast as a thought. Why not?
I am just saying that I would not want to miss heaven or my freedom. That is what I am saying. Do Atheists ever doubt about what they believe?
Posted by: Kenny | May 25, 2008 4:51 AM
Kenny, when will you understand that atheism means a lack of belief? Lack. Absence. Void. Nothing. No belief. Not an alternative faith but the absence of faith. Try hard to wrap your mind around that.
And you may want to Google 'Pascal's Wager' sometime.
Posted by: Angie | May 25, 2008 5:09 AM
>Kenny, when will you understand that atheism means a lack
>of belief? Lack. Absence. Void. Nothing. No belief. Not an
>alternative faith but the absence of faith. Try hard to
>wrap your mind around that.
I understand that you think there is a lack of evidence and thus a lack of belief, but none of that matters. You have to have some doubt that maybe you are wrong and maybe it is possible. What if I am wrong?
Scientists thought that the Earth was flat and they were wrong, there is always room for error. Scientists also didn't know about ATOMS, but they found that out. Not everything in the universe is known as a fact and there is room for error.
Humans are flawed and can make mistakes and can make errors and misjudgements and can make wrong decisions.
Your faith is that you don't believe because of the lack of physical evidence, but what if you are wrong?
Humans are not perfect and doubt is perfectly normal.
I get it, I really do. However, just like religious people sometimes have doubt--atheists have some doubt too.
If religious people are wrong, then they just look silly and get laughed at. However, what happens if they are right and Atheists are wrong. That in my mind is a bigger problem because now there is more than just getting laughed at.
So, while you deny that it is faith, it is simply semantics. We are talking about a belief system and what the consequences are for that belief system.
Posted by: Kenny | May 25, 2008 5:21 AM
No-one deserves eternal torment. That is just over the top and totally out of proportion to anything a human could do. Pushing it is just a terror tactic by the religious to keep control over the minds of the 'faithful'.
Posted by: Katkinkate | May 25, 2008 5:25 AM
Did Kenny ever provide an answer as to why NDEs reflect the culture/religion of the claimant?
Kenny, I'm sure I'm not the first to tell you so, but anecdotes are poor evidence, as are eyewitnesses. Forensics (science) has trumped eyewitnesses in courtroom after courtroom, and exonerated many that were wrongfully convicted on eyewitness testimony. The brain is far from perfect, and perception and memory easily distorted, altered, or corrupted. All those accounts seem to confirm is that crazy shit can happen to your mind in certain conditions and under certain stresses.
Your "evidence" for NDEs is on equal standing with those who claim abduction/rape/experimentation on themselves by aliens. Do you believe extraterrestrials are busy anally probing and artificially inseminating residents of our rural communities? It could be your butt on the line the next time you see a strange light in the sky.
Sure there's compelling stories. Some may be interesting enough to be starting points for investigation, but unless they start providing results, unless they lead to actual evidence, they remain just stories.
Posted by: Ragutis | May 25, 2008 5:29 AM