…and this is a 
How sad
Category: Religion
Posted on: May 11, 2008 9:27 AM, by PZ Myers
Paul Jones has died. I didn't know him, or even know about him, until his obituary was sent to me, but it's an utterly tragic life story. He was an ordained Baptist minister — there's a waste of a life right there — and his death was ironic and futile.
He died of a heart attack, just as he was about to pray with a member of his Upper Room Fellowship. His last word was "Jesus".
Someday I'm going to die, too, and I hope it is while doing something productive, and that I don't go out with the name of an imaginary being on my lips. And in particular, it would be nice if my obituary would say something about the good things in my life, rather than babbling on about dedication to a superstition.
It's a shame. Jones might have been a wonderful fellow, but all we strangers know about him is that he was "committed to expanding God's kingdom" — that he had dedicated his life to a lie.
Comments
PZ, I find this post in bad taste.
The man has just died, his family are in mourning, you know nothing about him except the most basic information, and your comments are simplisticly judgemental in the extreme.
And just because he was religious does not mean that he led a futile life. I'm an athiest, but I know of Christians, atheists, Muslims and religious Jews who have acted in humanitarian ways to help change lives for the better and make the world a better place. Being wrong about one thing does not make a life futile or wasted.
I generally like what you post, but this one is a turn off.
Posted by: Ramases | May 11, 2008 9:41 AM
I must agree with Ramases. How a person chooses to spend his last minutes is his business, as long as everyone involved is a willing participant. Personally, I'd prefer to depart in flagrante delicto, but to each his own.
Posted by: Hephaestus | May 11, 2008 9:47 AM
Ouch. PZ, I agree with what you're saying, but the timing is not good. A human being has died; lets have a little decorum.
Posted by: Doug | May 11, 2008 9:54 AM
Posts like this are in bad taste. In the eyes of religious people, you've become almost a spokesperson for atheism. It harms the credibility of atheists when you pass judgment on dead religious people that you don't know. I'm not sure why you made this post. What good could come of it?
Posted by: Gary | May 11, 2008 9:54 AM
I should start boning-up on my last words now. Practice makes perfect, and I wouldn't want to screw it up when my time comes. If I'm not careful "Jesus" may very well be on my lips, but not in the same reverent context as Mr. Jones.
I'm thinking more along the lines of "The winning lottery numbers are 12... 41... 33... 7... 25... And play the kicker."
Posted by: UprightAlice | May 11, 2008 9:55 AM
How utterly sad. Not merely this wasted life, but the fact that no one seems to remember Solon's answer to Croesus.
PZ is right. When we look upon this man's life after his death, we see a futile waste of space and energy, for he spent his life perpetuating a lie.
He did not make the world a better place, and the fools who believe the "works" done by idiot followers are worthy of praise need to refresh their minds with some history.
Bad Taste? No, genuine regret over a life that may as well never been lived for all the good it will ever amount to.
Posted by: Strakh | May 11, 2008 10:01 AM
Another liar for Jesus dropped dead. Good riddance.
Posted by: BobC | May 11, 2008 10:02 AM
This is one of those toughies. I'm inclined to agree with the "bad taste" folks. I don't have a huge issue taking on the legacy of folks like Reagan or Falwell or Pinochet when they died, but these are public figures and the issue of producing an honest history in place of hagiography is worthwhile. I just don't see someone like this rising to that level. It's not speaking at power, but being cruel.
That being said, there is also the idiocy by which saying "Jesus" on his death bed is reported as some wonderfully miraculous thing. Dude said a word and died. That's all. It's like the crazy lady at the MA Statehouse a few years ago, walking through a crowd of us gay people, chanting "Jesus! Jesus!" as though her magic incantation would have some effect.
Sarah Silverman got it wrong. It isn't "Jesus is magic," it's "'Jesus' is magic!"
It's sad that people attribute such nonsense to that signifier, and it's sadder that such nonsense is treated with such reverent respect in so many areas. Saw the same thing this morning on local news when a couple of idiots from Florida (of course) flew to Boston to have their child--now "a child of God," according to the local reporter--baptised at Fenway Park.
I think there's an issue in the article, but PZ's post seems to be lacking in any compassion for the survivors.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 11, 2008 10:06 AM
I see the concern trolls are out in force this morning. Aren't you twits supposed to be in church? Or kissing your mama and giving her those flowers you picked from the neighbor's yard?
PZ is expressing how tragic it is that this person died. Read for comprehension! It's shame that his life has been devoted to spreading medevial superstition and bigotry. It's a shame that his last words referenced a sun-god who never existed.
Hear, hear, PZ.
Posted by: LanceR | May 11, 2008 10:07 AM
Obviously, the obituary makes him sound as though he was quite a decent fellow, for the most part. However, whenever these preachers die and people start rattling on about their supposed good works, I'm always left to wonder whether those "good works" were the result of the person or the person's fear of some ridiculous notion of eternal suffering?
On the other hand, they also make it sound as though this guy was some sort of faith healing, dominionist fuckwit, and if that's the case, he deserves to have his rotting corpse and reputation spit upon and booted around a bit.
Posted by: Dan | May 11, 2008 10:09 AM
It's fascinating to me that other commenters have seized upon a couple lines about the deceased yet failed to notice that most of the content refers to how PZ would rather experience his own death. PZ has not cheered about Jones' death, only observed that a man known at least locally for healing others through prayer was mortally stricken himself during that exact activity. Irony and futility is what you make of it I suppose.
For those who think it's not the content, but only the timing that matters, please educate us as to the appropriate amount of time that must elapse before comforting lies about the recently deceased can begin to be interspersed with the truth.
Posted by: Ray S. | May 11, 2008 10:14 AM
Yup, this one was in bad taste. You'd be outraged if your spouse or child died and a google search under their name led to a discussion of a stranger calling them a poor, simple fool with a wasted life - even if it were true.
You should have minded your own damn business on this one.
Posted by: concern troll | May 11, 2008 10:15 AM
I don't expect good taste from PZ's blog. I expect commentary and discussion. Obviously he is doing a good job this morning. And, I believe, he is right on with this post. If the most important thing we can say about someone is that they spread their religion, then we a damning with faint praise. Paul Jones probably did a lot of truly good and selfless things in his life that actually helped people. Those are the items that create a real legacy. Sorry if Paul's family and friends are hurt by the words of a blogger on the internet. If this is the case it may be because the truth is hitting a little close to home.
Posted by: Nick in Tacoma | May 11, 2008 10:18 AM
i'd just say: it's hard to tell.
i'm not so worried about the bad taste, as about the unscientific jumping to conclusions.
sure, a lot of religionists are ugly, deceitful fools.
but then again, some of them lead admirable, decent lives, lives that any of us would consider examples of what fine specimens human beings can be.
to my taste, those good lives would have been even better without the religious lies sprinkled throughout.
but the fact that the life included some lies does not mean it was built on lies. it may have been built on genuinely admirable, human values--caring, trust, cooperation, commitment, loyalty, the enjoyment of beauty, the avoidance of cruelty and hate.
we just don't have enough info to tell about this guy. and probably never will.
accordingly, i would not rush to judgement one way or another.
Posted by: kid bitzer | May 11, 2008 10:22 AM
For all of you thant think PZ's post was in bad tast... get a clue, get a life,. The guy was obviously a moron, and dideicated himself to a lie. You can put lipstick on the pig if you want to, but it's still a pig.
Posted by: J-Dog | May 11, 2008 10:23 AM
Ah, concern troll, at least you have the integrity to admit your name/vocation. Good for you. Now, even if you can't get a crayon font, try to follow along, okay?
PZ was given someone's obituary, unasked for, and he gave an honest response: disgust over a life wasted promoting a fairy tale, a last word being an imaginary being whose very concept in society is as antihuman as anything ever invented, and then a wistful wish that his own life and last words will amount to more.
He didn't google it, it was sent to him, he gave an honest answer. People die, concern troll, and they are judged every single day. This turd died promoting shit that destroys life and human dignity on a scale hitherto unknown in human thought.
And you consider it in bad taste to be sad about that?
Posted by: Strakh | May 11, 2008 10:23 AM
I agree with PZ 100%, but I think he should probably delete this post out of sympathy for Paul Jones' family.
Posted by: J | May 11, 2008 10:24 AM
Those of you who think this is in bad taste: save your ire for the obituary. Practically all it says about the guy is non-stop praise for his commitment to Jesus; his wife and kids are practically an afterthought, and we know nothing about him except that he was a Baptist minister...and the bizarre and irrelevant fact that his last word was "Jesus".
Death also does not excuse stupidity in life. I'd be more impressed if the fellow had died while doing volunteer work in a soup kitchen, for instance, but praying? What a pointless last act.
Posted by: PZ Myers | May 11, 2008 10:26 AM
The guy didn't just devote his life to a lie. He devoted his life to two lies. The first and obvious lie is the existence of God. The second and lesser known lie is that Jesus most probably never existed. There are several sites devoted to the Jesus-myth theory. Perhaps the most interesting is the theory of Joe Atwill that the gospels were a parody of the Jewish zealots who were defeated by the Romans in the Jewish War of 70-73 CE, and that the miracles of Jesus were based on the significant events in the campaign of general Titus during the war on the Jews in 70-73 CE. The "triumphal entry" into Jerusalem on a donkey by Jesus was really the triumphal entry into Jerusalem by Titus before he destroyed the temple. Atwill believes the crucified Jesus is none other than Eleazar ben Simon, the leader of the zealots during the Jewish War.
Another interesting theory is that of Dan Unterbrink, that the crucified Jesus really represented Judas of Galilee, the founder of the zealot movement after the census of Quirinus in 6 CE. Unterbrink makes the interesting observation that while the death of his sons Simon and Menachem, and his grandson Eleazar, were recorded by Josephus, Josephus strangely never mentions Judas' death, even though he mentions many important events in Judas' life as founder of the zealot movement, leading to the suggestion thinks that the so-called Testimonium Flavianum - where Josephus mentions the death of Jesus under Pontius Pilate - was a rewriting of the crucifixion of Judas under Pontius Pilate.
Posted by: silkworm | May 11, 2008 10:28 AM
I also think this was in bad taste, I'm hoping PZ is just parodying the IDiot view of an athiest. Had this man been someone like Jerry Falwell, I'd understand, but it seems PZ is jumping to conclusions here, or acting on prejudices
Posted by: Crake | May 11, 2008 10:29 AM
I'm a Christian. If you should happen to hear that I have died while praying or speaking of Jesus, please do not feel sorry for me. I can think of few ways that I would rather die.
May you live and die as you wish and respect that others will make different choices than yours.
Posted by: JayneK | May 11, 2008 10:34 AM
Well, the obituary does explain he did something with computers too. But thats pretty much all. I don't know who the intended audience is for this obituary is, maybe it's not that strange if it was for some church publication.
It's still a cold and impersonal piece of text regardless, "guy died, praised jesus a lot, did something with computers, left a familiy behind and praised jesus a lot. Did i mention he died with the word jesus on his lips?"
Posted by: Dutch Delight | May 11, 2008 10:35 AM
Yeah, it's kind of a tough call. I guess I'd liken it to going over to a ten-year-old kid who's father just died in Iraq, "Your dad died for nothing." It may be true, but it's rather rude to say it to the guy's kid. This guy just died, and while you're not saying "good riddance" or something actively malicious, I think it's better just not to say anything at all--especially considering he's not a public figure like Falwell, Dobson, Robertson, etc.
I'd see no problem if it were said in the general sense of "clergymen waste their lives--even the 'good' ones are doing good things for false reasons," or if the man is long dead, or something along those lines. For instance, I remember reading about the priest who originally calculated that the world began exactly in 4004 BC or whatever it was. His personal library apparently could give the ancient one at Alexandria a run for its money, and he sounded very brilliant--he was just unfortunately infected by the myopia of religion, so his intellect was wasted on a lie. But he died a few hundred years ago, not a few hours/days ago.
Posted by: Andrew | May 11, 2008 10:49 AM
You know, I'm an atheist, but I sometimes say 'Jesus' as a curse. Maybe he was in the process of saying 'JESUS, that hurts!' and didn't quite finish.
Posted by: Mark B | May 11, 2008 10:51 AM
Here's an idea: Why doesn't PZ simply edit his post to remove reference to the guy's name?
Posted by: J | May 11, 2008 10:52 AM
PZ should simply edit his post to remove reference to the guy's name.
Posted by: J | May 11, 2008 10:54 AM
Let us consider Isaac Newton. He wasted a lot of his life on alchemy and spiritual speculations. Yet it's unquestioned that he accomplished a great deal of splendid work (when he wasn't occupied by those other things). Similarly Patrick Henry (whose name I took for his "Liberty or Death" speech) was a devout man who probably spent a lot of time on religious concerns, yet he did much that everyone here would agree was valuable.
I realize that this Paul Jones fellow was no Isaac Newton, or even a Patrick Henry. Still, I say we should let him be.
Posted by: PatrickHenry | May 11, 2008 11:00 AM
CONCERN TROLL RIGHT HERE
So this guy was a Baptist minister. Was he inciting violence against homosexuals? Advocating prayer instead of medical assistance? Teaching abstinance-only sex ed? Lobbying to teach creationism in schools? Bombing abortion clinics?
I think PZ's post is in dubious taste, mostly due to declaring this man's life a waste. He was a small business owner and father of four, I imagine he did other things than oppress minorities constantly. Perhaps he could have achieved more. Without further evidence it sounds like he did kind things for the wrong reasons. What a monster.
PZ can post whatever he likes and I don't think he was wrong to post this. The wording could have been better, but it works as a spur to incite comment about meaning and death.
BobC, J-Dog, Strakh. You are assholes. Just in case anyone has forgotten, atheism is merely a statement about lack of belief in gods. It is not a statement about our empathy, compassion or values and I am proud to have some unlike these pitiful examples of humanity.
Posted by: Hematite | May 11, 2008 11:01 AM
Okay, everyone here knows that the dearly departed's belief in god was, at best, severely misguided. Dancing on his grave only reduces us to the level of Fred Phelps and the Westboro Baptist mob. Calling him a moron while displaying a lack of grammar and spelling skills does add a certain comedic flair to the discussion, but does little to make your point.
As best I can tell, PZ found a random obituary this morning and decided to bitch-slap a corpse. Hey, it's his blog and he can do what he likes. That might even be an untapped source of amusement for a new web site: trolling the obit columns of local newspapers and abusing the dead.
Personally, I hope that when I depart people will focus on the short list of things that I got right and not the long list of things that I screwed up. Someone famous once said that whoever hasn't fucked up should throw the first stone.
Posted by: Hephaestus | May 11, 2008 11:05 AM
PatrickHenry,
What if Newton's - or Henry's - more worthy contributions were all forgotten and they were only now remembered for their alchemy or devotion?
Because that's more or less what this obituary's doing.
Posted by: Arnaud | May 11, 2008 11:06 AM
PZ, I agree with some of the other commenters -- it was a tasteless post. Some of my best friends are Christians, as well as most of my relatives. I try to be tactful in my dealings with them. An analogy: if a friend has cancer, would you continually rub the fact in his/her's face? It's better to find some common ground; I resist conversion attempts and I really don't want to convert others to my point of view. Life's too short!
Posted by: Larry Ayers | May 11, 2008 11:08 AM
I'm the guilty one here in that I alerted PZ to this obit. My point to him was in the context of the NYT article a few weeks ago about people who died while blogging - therefore, "blogging kills." I have nothing but sympathy for the family of Mr Jones (although I too would have loved to know about his service to the community in the name of Jesus) but the families of Messers Shaw, Orchant, and Malik had to endure the claims of death by blogging in one of the nation's top newspapers. I saw little to no verbiage from the concern trolls toward those three families.
John Paul Jones and ibiblio's Paul Jones are so dense on Google search returns that chances are slim to nil that any family member would fall upon this post, unless they frequent sites of atheist scientists. But PZ is free to delete the man's name if anyone thinks that might help.
Posted by: Abel Pharmboy | May 11, 2008 11:12 AM
Well, at least he didn't say 'God damn America.'
Posted by: Mark B | May 11, 2008 11:13 AM
Sam Harris said something to the effect that atheism is in some quarters rapidly becoming a cult. That pissed off a lot of people here, maybe because he hit so close to the mark. I think some of the tribalistic comments in this thread are proving him right.
"Good riddance" -- what a horrible and mean-spirited thing to say.
Posted by: J | May 11, 2008 11:14 AM
I don't think this was in bad taste, do some research on Paul Jones, the guy was a obscurantist. You wouldnt think its in bad taste if somebody spent their entire life trying hard to convince people about fairies and then as he died he yelled 'FAIRY!' PZ is absolutely right. And to the PC brigade, if you don't agree then don't read. Also atheism has nothing to do with the nature of the post, people are so quick to generalize, label and attach it to something aren't they. It goes like "I dont agree with the blog, blogger is an atheist, all atheists are insensitive"
Posted by: Peter | May 11, 2008 11:17 AM
Bad taste? Please. If PZ waited a week, would it cease to be in bad taste? A month? A year?
There are plenty of people who consider any questioning at all of religion to be in 'bad taste'.
Posted by: V Profane | May 11, 2008 11:18 AM
"Good riddance" -- what a horrible and mean-spirited thing to say.
Well, PZ didn't actually say that. A few commenters did, but only one appears to have said it in earnest, and it's probably a troll. If you use quotes, you should say who you're quoting.
Posted by: Mark B | May 11, 2008 11:19 AM
But if you delete his name how are you going to donate money to the memorial fund? "Our dear minister just died, now give us your money' is in bad taste.
Posted by: GraceM | May 11, 2008 11:21 AM
PZ,
in one year of reading Pharyngula, this is the only post I wish I hadn't read (and your comment #18 doesn't make it any better).
Anyway, one out of the few hundreds I've read, Pharyngula is still the best...
I guess this post will get quote-mined often. Is this why you wrote it ?
Posted by: negentropyeater | May 11, 2008 11:25 AM
I find it interesting that people find it in "bad taste" to speak of the dead with anything buyt reverence. It's death, people, it happens. We're all going to die and that's the long and short of it. It seems to me that all the solemnity bs that people demand comes from religion. When I die, let my friends celebrate and my detractors celebrate all the more.
As for having wasted his life, just think of all the energy an intelligent person could put towards furthering the understanding of the world and doing some concrete good if they didn't spend their time espousing a fairytale.
I'm with PZ on this one.
Posted by: SebastesMan | May 11, 2008 11:25 AM
A lot of people find comfort in their religion. The man's religious accomplishments are probably the focus of the obituary because this is a comforting thought to the author and most, if not all, of his intended audience. These people are dealing with their grief the best way that they know.
PZ, when you die, I expect you to leave behind people who love you and who will grieve. (Should you predecease me, I too would mourn.) It seems likely that many of these people will express themselves in godless terms and not seek comfort in religion and that this would be reflected in any obituarires they write. Suppose that Christian bloggers use your death as a platform to talk about their beliefs. Suppose they write about how tragic and futile your life was because you did not know God. What do you think of these hypothethical bloggers?
Posted by: JayneK | May 11, 2008 11:26 AM
Well, PZ didn't actually say that. A few commenters did, but only one appears to have said it in earnest, and it's probably a troll. If you use quotes, you should say who you're quoting.
I didn't imply that PZ said "Good riddance", and I said earlier that I agree with the content of his post 100%. But yeah, I probably should say who I'm quoting.
Posted by: J | May 11, 2008 11:27 AM
Re The original Patrick Henry.
"Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!"
Patrick Henry was a slave-owner. Was there ever a bigger hypocrite?
Posted by: Nick Gotts | May 11, 2008 11:28 AM
It is difficult to approach death in a manner that is totally guaranteed to be found in good taste by everybody - such is the nature of things so emotionally charged. Religion has been practicing death rituals for milennia, and thus, we have grown used to them. The common customs of being "silent and respectful" in the presence of the dead, having a long(ish) mourning period before addressing issues relating to the decesaed, etc. are culture-specific and usually heavily embedded with religious practice.
Of course, what is "good" or "bad" taste is also culturally defined, and considering one option as "good" and the other one as "bad" is just ethnocentrism.
Interesting, how even scientific people can so easily lose all rationality and objectivity when it comes to cultural issues.
Anyway, PZ: whether your post is in either good or bad taste is irrelevant. You read the obituary, and shared your feelings with the world. Thank you for this. I also find it sad that people give meaning to their deaths in terms of religion and religious values, but this is such deeply embedded that pointing it out is sure to offend.
Posted by: Ale | May 11, 2008 11:34 AM
Nick Gotts: "Patrick Henry was a slave-owner. Was there ever a bigger hypocrite?"
um, Thomas Jefferson?
Posted by: Divalent | May 11, 2008 11:37 AM
What is it with death that suddenly makes so many people hyper-sensitive? If it's not wrong to point out that a person's beliefs are silly while he's alive, it's no more wrong to do so after he's dead, surely?
And as I read the post, his beliefs aren't even really the point. The point is that he died while doing something irrelevant, and the obituary seems to leave out anything of substance the man might have done. Surely that neglect with regards to the past should be rather atrocious to an atheist, considering that the memories the living have of the dead is all that's left of them. And this particular man gets to be remembered for nothing of his own, he's simply obscured by his religion.
Posted by: Ted D | May 11, 2008 11:39 AM
Our thoughts for today are irony, taste and truth.
1) Well, I agree that the circumstances of this man's death are ironic.
But, you know what? Most people who are at death's door and are even partially cognizant of that fact say things that, when looked at from the outside, seem ironic. We live to die. What could be more ironic than that, and a bigger challenge to belief than that?
2) If it was bad taste to respond to this guy's life purely on the basis of his beliefs, it would certainly approach bad taste to reduce an individual's entire life to the practice of his beliefs. But I think that, when looking at this obit, one should consider the target audience, which is to say fellow workers in evangelism. This was not, I think, what you will hear from his family and intimate friends.
At the risk of giving offense, in all frankness many of you are 'tone deaf' to any such distinctions. This was just another opportunity for some of you to pile on religion and bash sincere believers for not holding your 'enlightened' views. I for one would never try to keep you from exercising your spleen in such fora, but don't insult my intelligence by making excuses, or for labeling commenters who demur from taking your stand as 'concern trolls'. I'm not concerned. I'm repulsed, because mocking the end of a fellow human being is vulgar, no matter what the guy believed.
3) As for the truth, the idea that this fellow 'dedicated his life to a lie' is something that no one can possibly objectively know to be true. That statement, in and of itself, does not particularly offend me because I understand the context in which it was made. If one of us were to say this in conversation over coffee, I would listen and respectfully engage.
But, as a very public addendum to a public obit, readily available on the Internet? This could be hurtful to the guy's friends and family. I agree with a previous poster (#25) that PZ should consider removing his name from the post, but let the trenchant and provocative comments remain.
Peace....SH
Posted by: Scott Hatfield, OM | May 11, 2008 11:40 AM
I see the concern trolls are out in force this morning. Aren't you twits supposed to be in church? Or kissing your mama and giving her those flowers you picked from the neighbor's yard?
Why do you think that people who disagree with the taste of the post and who are expressing it without an insane rant belittling other people are concern trolls? This isn't Uncommon Descent you know. People here are allowed to disagree with PZ.
PZ is expressing how tragic it is that this person died. Read for comprehension!
And here you go again. Everything you wrote up to this point shouldn't have been posted if you want anyone to take you seriously. You aren't impressing anyone, you sound like an angry jerk. Does mentioning that make me a concern troll too? (Look up and see what a concern troll is.)
It's shame that his life has been devoted to spreading medevial superstition and bigotry. It's a shame that his last words referenced a sun-god who never existed.
Hear, hear, PZ.
Posted by: LanceR
It is indeed a shame that people do earn a living from this stuff. What a waste of time and perfectly good resources. It's not like a lot of it helps needy people or is used to spread peace. It seems like all they ever do is build megachurces and rant about gays or evolution.
Posted by: Mena | May 11, 2008 11:44 AM
I`m relieved, I thought for a minute you meant Paul Jones from Manfred Mann
Posted by: Brian Faux | May 11, 2008 11:44 AM
Definitely bad taste. So long as it's still a free country we need to show respect for those we disagree with, unless they're mean to others, and this post was just mean.
"Do not do to others what you would not like yourself" --Confucius
Posted by: watercat | May 11, 2008 11:51 AM
#8:
a couple of idiots from Florida (of course)
Go fuck yourself.
Posted by: spencer | May 11, 2008 11:53 AM
Yeah, when I die of sudden cardiac arrest, I'll make sure to have that moment carefully planned out. I'll have a 24-hour soup kitchen on call.
Posted by: Steve Reuland | May 11, 2008 11:55 AM
Re #42 by Nick Gotts: "Patrick Henry was a slave-owner. Was there ever a bigger hypocrite?"
Whoa, a bit of thread-drift here! Anyway, that was the way of the world back then. It was their world, not ours. Men like Henry, Jefferson, and Washington lived when they lived, and were respected by their contemporaries. I hope no one born 250 years after our own time sneers at us and our work because of some large shift in morality that may occur between now and then. It's silly to imagine that if we lived when they did, we'd be better than they were.
Posted by: PatrickHenry | May 11, 2008 11:56 AM
I hate this post. The larger point could have been made, and made better, without using this man's death in a way that shows great insensitivity toward and a lack of compassion for his family and friends.
My father was an athlete. I sat with him and watched a basketball game in the hours before he died. Along with celebrating the great things he did in every other area of his personal and professional life, much of his obituary and his memorial service, as he would have wished, focused on his athletic achievements. If someone had written something equivalent to this just after his death to make a point about how our culture is obsessed with sports and what a waste of time and energy this is (even if the larger point is true), it would have added immensely to our suffering.
The obituary says that he had a wife and four children, counseled people, and supported charities. That the obituary of a Baptist minister should emphasize religious hoo-ha is not surprising, but it doesn't make his a "waste of a life" or an "utterly tragic life story."
Posted by: SC | May 11, 2008 11:59 AM
Suppose that Christian bloggers use your death as a platform to talk about their beliefs. Suppose they write about how tragic and futile your life was because you did not know God.
I'm not an atheist but I would argue that PZ's obituary would include his atheist activism as only one facet of his life. I, for one, would include his decades of caring for and dedication to his students, using his notoriety in promoting scientific literary in the US and the world, and freely opening the Myers' home to student gatherings and colleagues in need.
Posted by: Abel Pharmboy | May 11, 2008 12:01 PM
I had to send y'all a link to this story about the poor congregats of a Tampa-area preacher that they say WAS LYING TO THEM!
http://www.sun-sentinel.com/news/local/southflorida/sfl-flbpreacher0511sbmay11,0,5670948.story
Sorry about the long link - I don't know how to get the linkey embedded into a piece of text - not a smarty.
Posted by: dan | May 11, 2008 12:10 PM
If there is no God, then whatever Meyers does could not be either good or bad. If there is a God then Meyers is bad, and not good! Since he opposes God! If there is no God then whatever Meyers does is useless, and has no meaning. If there is no God, but a person believes that there is a God, and lives accordingly, then he gives his own life meaning. The non believers (Meyers)life has no meaning. What he says has no meaning.
Posted by: Alveno Kondyles | May 11, 2008 12:14 PM
Alveno:
Your very first sentence is wrong. I did not bother continue.
Posted by: Ale | May 11, 2008 12:18 PM
I can see two avenues of thought here:
1) This guy was a major dick in life. Usual respect for a normal dead person is not warranted here.
2) This guy's dead, regardless of what he did; he deserves respect.
Now, my opinion is that we give entirely too much respect to dead people - they're just hunks of meat, damn it - and, frankly, this asshole deserves all the criticism he gets, and I'm glad another idiot minister has croaked (because they genuinely are drains on the rest of the population.). At the same time, death sucks.
Posted by: Katharine | May 11, 2008 12:19 PM
No! A proponent of the no-morality-without-SkyDaddy argument who misspells PZ's name!
What are the odds?
Posted by: Arnaud | May 11, 2008 12:21 PM
"I would argue that PZ's obituary would include his atheist activism as only one facet of his life." -Abel Pharmboy in #54
I would imagine that there are many people for whom PZ's atheist activism is his most significant contribution. If one of these people rather than yourself wrote his obituary I would expect to see that as its focus.
Posted by: JayneK | May 11, 2008 12:22 PM
Alveno -
You're parroting the same argument about morality that every anti-atheist theist uses. Your argument has no support. Don't post here again unless you can support your argument.
Posted by: Katharine | May 11, 2008 12:25 PM
"You know, I'm an atheist, but I sometimes say 'Jesus' as a curse. Maybe he was in the process of saying 'JESUS, that hurts!' and didn't quite finish."
I was just gonna say, I'm sure there have been plenty of people who's last word was "Jesus!" though perhaps not in the same context.
Oh and by the way, "respect for the dead" is about as fucking idiotic a concept as that of religion. Might as well have respect for a fucking cheeseburger.
Posted by: craig | May 11, 2008 12:31 PM
Now, my opinion is that we give entirely too much respect to dead people - they're just hunks of meat, damn it - and, frankly, this asshole deserves all the criticism he gets...
Only the less subtle individuals here think this is anything to do with "respect for the dead" or some similar abstraction. As I see it, this is about PZ running the risk of exacerbating the suffering of the dead man's family.
Posted by: J | May 11, 2008 12:34 PM
It seems to me as though what PZ is objecting to is the tone of the obit, that has a sort of sentiment in it that I used to see all the time from the fundamentalist Christians with whom I went to high school, and which you could sum up essentially as, "Christian first, human being second." If the person who writes your obituary completely subsumes your humanity into your religion, even if you're a clergyperson, that's appalling. It really smacks of what James Loewen called "heroification," a process by which a person is made into a false paragon of themselves. My atheism doesn't have the same underpinnings as PZ's does, so the fact that this man has been made into a paragon of religion doesn't in itself offend me, although I can see how it might. (It offends me in that the human somehow got lost.)
Sam Harris said something to the effect that atheism is in some quarters rapidly becoming a cult.
Sam Harris supports torture, so IMNSHO I'm personally inclined to think he's so full of shit he squeaks.
Posted by: Interrobang | May 11, 2008 12:35 PM
Alveno (re: #56),
If there were no God, Myers would give meaning to his life in much the same way as "a person [who]believes that there is a God, and lives accordingly."
If there is a God (as I think), it seems likely to me that He would consider good Myers zeal for truth and his many good actions. Myers does not "oppose God". One would have to believe in God to oppose Him.
Posted by: JayneK | May 11, 2008 12:37 PM
...And to comment on the post;
I share PZ's view that a life devoted to copying the xian meme is a wasted life in the bigger sense that religion is a waste of human energy. I think that a life spent promoting a lie is a waste, not only of that life, but the lives of all of the Human race.
That's how us New Atheists(TM) view religion.
If this preacher was a faith healer, what were his stats? What was his healing average? Average? Below average?
Also, about good works; I am sick of good works; why do I have to help the poor and the sick, is God busy?
Obviously, if he is leaving it up to us.
But if they are poor and sick, isn't that part of the plan? who am I to mess with the plan.
Sorry, rambling....
I agree with PZ's post.
Dan (in Orlando)
Posted by: dan | May 11, 2008 12:39 PM
Criticizing people at their death is rarely productive. Few people who knew them are likely to want to focus on their failings or troublesome characteristics. The obit is a bunch of sappy, vapid religiosity that is an insult to the man in question. No one could be as simplistic as the author of the obit paints him. The author needs to get a richer life than this impoverished God, God, God nonsense that he has constrained himself to.
I know many ministers. The teaching of religion is not their only undertaking in life. Much of what they do is good, even if you conclude that religion or the practice of religion as done in America is evil and not merely silly. I realize that many of the activities of religious organizations are harmful to society, but some are helpful, or, at least, ameliorate some of the damage that they may have directly or indirectly caused.
Religious activity needs to be criticized when it is harmful, but I doubt that it is helpful to be focusing on a particular person at his death. Criticizing it directly at times when religionists are more likely to be open to criticism is more constructive.
Posted by: freelunch | May 11, 2008 12:44 PM
"there's a waste of life right there"
I couldnt stop laughing when I read that. So sharp, and dead on.
When I die, I want people to talk about my faults alongside my good traits. That would give a fuller view of who I was.
Posted by: andrew | May 11, 2008 12:48 PM
"Only the less subtle individuals here think this is anything to do with "respect for the dead" or some similar abstraction. As I see it, this is about PZ running the risk of exacerbating the suffering of the dead man's family."
Fuck you and your inflated sense of your own mental superiority. Is that too subtle for you?
PZ didn't put up posters in their home town. He didn't write a letter to the editor of their local paper. He didn't show up at the wake and call the guy an asshole.
He mentioned it on the net. The family are pretty unlikely to know about it, except in the "search google" scenario you mention. The man was a public figure. Public figures elicit public comments. Which can turn up on google. Unless you expect public figures to never be criticized, we're going to have to throw any criticism down the memory hole and scrub google, because their family members might do a google search while in mourning.
The internet is global. Billions of people use it. People die every second. Dying is as routine as being born - coincidentally happens just about as frequently.
What you are saying pretty much suggests that nobody's death ever be discussed on the net - virtually everyone has loved ones, so far everyone seems to die eventually, many - perhaps dozens of people know how to google.
Seems to me YOU are the one guilty of a lack of subtlety, not being able to differentiate between said wake and local paper, and the wider, relatively-unattached world, internet and populace.
Black and white thinking. Good/bad, with us/against us, not pissing in the casket/having the temerity to discuss a public person's death in public.
The idea that a recent death cannot be discussed by complete strangers on the net in anything less than reverential tones lest relatives stumble along is fecking stupid.
Posted by: craig | May 11, 2008 12:51 PM
PZ, with all due respect, you are in no position to judge whether this person's life was a "waste." Not everything needs to be viewed through culture war-tinted binoculars. I know it sounds shocking, but even those dreaded Baptist Ministers can do positive things with their lives, so says this atheist pastor's kid. So get off your high horse and have some fucking compassion.
Posted by: Dave Carlson | May 11, 2008 1:05 PM
I made it that far. It's really not that hard to find several instances on this page where PZ's name is actually spelled correctly, and I figure if you can't find them, it's usually a good indication that much of what you have to say will be pretty worthless.
Posted by: Dan | May 11, 2008 1:08 PM
He mentioned it on the net. The family are pretty unlikely to know about it, except in the "search google" scenario you mention. The man was a public figure. Public figures elicit public comments. Which can turn up on google. Unless you expect public figures to never be criticized, we're going to have to throw any criticism down the memory hole and scrub google, because their family members might do a google search while in mourning.
PZ's readership is extremely big, and it's not at all implausible that the dead minister's family will eventually learn about this article. Also, PZ's taking a shit on a dead person he doesn't know anything about is hardly the best thing that could happen for the public image of both science and atheism.
Most of your outpouring barely touches on anything I said. It doesn't matter how common death is. There's simply no need to mention the man's name. Zero good will come of this.
Fuck you too, by the way.
Posted by: J | May 11, 2008 1:11 PM
"De mortiis, aut bene aut nihil"
You may despise or pity the deceased. I'm perfectly OK with it.
However, suppose that his wife or child reads this blog (not impossible, given the high Google pagerank of Pharynula). Do you want to add more grief to their sufferings?
I think, you should stay silent about such things. At least for a while to let the time heal wounds.
Posted by: Alex Besogonov | May 11, 2008 1:11 PM
So this guy probably had family and friends who may read the above in the near future which, IMO, makes this unnecessary and mean-spirited attack a post of near-Phelpsian dickishness.
Posted by: tai haku | May 11, 2008 1:14 PM
If you hadn't noticed, PZ is was talking about his profession as the reason his life was a waste. He spent it spreading superstition and lies.
He's right.
He also said he might of been a great guy.
Bunch of whiney ass concern trolls.
Posted by: Steve_C | May 11, 2008 1:28 PM
J,
very well said. And if I may add, with the quantity of creotards always lurking around on this site and looking for every occasion to make atheists look bad, I guess the risk that PZ is running that the family will learn that a prominent Atheist Scientist blogger declared the life of their loved one a "waste of a life", and his death "ironic and futile", is increasing by every minute that PZ is maintaining this post online.
But ok, it's his blog, he knows what he's doing.
Posted by: negentropyeater | May 11, 2008 1:52 PM
"PZ's readership is extremely big, and it's not at all implausible that the dead minister's family will eventually learn about this article.
Most of your outpouring barely touches on anything I said. It doesn't matter how common death is. There's simply no need to mention the man's name. Zero good will come of this.
The net is global. Everyone dies. Everyone knows people who die. It's not at all implausible that references to ANYONE'S death on the net will eventually be found by their loved ones.
My comment touches precisely on what you said. In your own lack of subtlety, you have in effect issued a proscription on discussing anyone's death in a less than positive light on the net. EVERYONE dies, EVERYONE has mourners.
And now you've broadened it - now you say "eventually" they might find it... meaning that its not only bad if they find it while grieving, but at ANY time.
"Knowing someone who died" is probably in the top three of the most commonly shared human experiences. More so than "having had sex."
By demanding that the recent dead not be discussed unfavorably or mentioned by name lest people they knew stumble across it, you've actually demanded a wider-reaching form of control than those who don't want discussion of sex on the next in case kids see it. You've actually ruled out a wider swath of human experience from discussion.
Why not widen it a bit more? Being bereaved is not the only thing that causes people psychic pain... it's not even always the worst. Maybe we should not mention ANYTHING on the net that might theoretically upset someone, somewhere?
Here's a subtlety for ya - the internet, though it comes right into your house, is not actually IN your house. And it's not actually IN the house of the mourners.
And here's a mind-blower - though anyone could possibly read anything on the net, that doesn't mean you should necessarily act as though everyone WILL.
It's an immense public and impersonal place that can come right into your house. You have to get used to that, mourners have to get used to that, people who have reasons to be upset about things have to get used to that.
Everyone has the world's largest library at their fingertips. Subtle is understanding that you might come across something that upsets you in that library.
Unsubtle is demanding that the world's largest library be edited to suit your own particular emotional needs.
Posted by: craig | May 11, 2008 1:58 PM
Who cares if this man dedicated his life to religion? He was not a hate monger or a snake oil salesman. There's more to being a minister than, "God Jesus Heaven Hell Jesus." Even if every word he preached was false (and that's a big, unfalsifiable "if"), he spent his life making people happy. His life was no more a waste than the life of an actor or entertainer or motivational speaker. If anything, we should all strive to live like Paul Jones. We should all dedicate ourselves to improving the quality of life of those aro