That guy, Mike Norman, with the t-shirts implying Obama is a monkey is selling them for $15 apiece. Doron Braunshtein is also selling an anti-Obama t-shirt…for $250. This one isn't as overtly racist — it just says "JEWS AGAINST OBAMA" — but it's also not worth the money, and Braunshtein's attitudes, revealed in the story, are rather bigoted themselves. Proud Jews shouldn't vote for someone with the middle name "Hussein"?
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« Shouldn't the creationists be tittering at the Vatican now? | Main | They just don't get it »
Mike Norman is a piker
Category: Kooks
Posted on: May 14, 2008 9:56 AM, by PZ Myers
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Comments
Posted by: Michelle | May 14, 2008 9:58 AM
250 BUCKS FOR THAT?! I almost expected it to be threaded with gold...Goddamnit, you can make your own at your local printing shop for a 20 bucks.
Posted by: JStein | May 14, 2008 10:05 AM
Yeah, this really is pretty bad. I'm Jewish and, though I didn't vote for Obama in the primary (Ron Paul, baby) and probably won't in the general (if Mark Gravel gets the Libertarian nomination, or just an L candidate in general).
Still, if you are going to be bigotted, that's the wrong way to do it. A proud Jew also shouldn't vote for McCain because he thinks we're all going to hell because we don't except Jesus as our lord and savior.
For that matter, a proud anything shouldn't vote for McCain, because it'd be impossible to be proud with that man in the white house.
Posted by: The Science Pundit | May 14, 2008 10:06 AM
It looks like even some rabbis (at least one liberal one) are putting him in his place.
Posted by: Aegis | May 14, 2008 10:14 AM
"$250...it just says "JEWS AGAINST OBAMA"
OK, I'll just throw this one out there; the stereotyped imagery brought to mind by the price of this shirt and its intended jewish audience is pretty funny.
Posted by: Raynfala | May 14, 2008 10:19 AM
As a Jewish person, I've never been more tempted to launch into "no true Scotsman" territory, but I'll just hold myself back and simply say, "I really don't get what's up with this bozo."
Besides, I hear rumblings that a good portion of the so-called controversies concerning Obama's supposed anti-Jewish / anti-Israel / anti-Semitic positions are simply manufactroversies.
Posted by: Tom | May 14, 2008 10:19 AM
I live in Marietta, Georgia, a lovely town but unfortunately also the site of Mike Norman's scummy biker bar, Mulligan's, and I'd just like to take this opportunity to say to Mike Norman:
FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE
Posted by: Mark B | May 14, 2008 10:25 AM
Doron? Are you sure the first letter of his name isn't M? That would fit better.
Posted by: brokenSoldier | May 14, 2008 10:28 AM
I wonder what this guy thinks about Hagee, Buchanan, Falwell, or any of the other neo-con Christian zealots that have mobilized the majority of the Republicans' electoral support over the past 25+ years? (Especially what they've had to say about Judaism and its followers...) Then again, I'm sure he hasn't considered any of the other candidates' ties to pastors, ministers, or spiritual advisors before taking this road. Instead, he found a way to attack a candidate he already didn't like, and the "way" he found to do this tries to mobilize an entire demographic to follow him down his road of ignorance.
Posted by: Janine ID | May 14, 2008 10:28 AM
Here is one silly question. John McCain sought out Hagee's endorsement. Hagee "supports" Israel in order to bring about the apocalypse and bring about Jesus' christian rule. Why would any "proud Jew" support that. Doron Braunshtein is a bad artist and a dumbass.
Posted by: Ouchimoo | May 14, 2008 10:35 AM
"selling an idea" that will one day hang "in the greatest museums and galleries in the city"
Just because you're creative enough to slap some 3 dollar ink onto a piece of fabric and charge 800% to sell it does not make you Andy Warhol. In fact you're not even creative; You are just an idiot.
Hey Tom #6, I have an idea for what you could do, maybe it will be so provocative that it will show up in the greatest museums and galleries in the city, have a shirt that says "Mike Norman, you are an idiot!"
Course "Fuck you, asshole" might work too.
Posted by: Ouchimoo | May 14, 2008 10:37 AM
Whoops, wrong idiot "mike norman, doron braunshtein" same difference. You get the point.
Posted by: m. dorian | May 14, 2008 10:39 AM
If the t-shirt had depicted hillary clinton as a monkey, would anyone care? I mean, we all came from simians, right? I just asked a class of tenth graders in nyc (predominantly black and latino) if they thought the t-shirt was racist, and they laughed. one girl said, if the shirt said "hillary in '08" and the monkey was white, then it would be racist. A white monkey? A black monkey? No such thing... I can see why the shirt could be offensive, but we all really need to get past postmodern white liberal guilt here. My guess is obama doesn't care. He's too smart to let it get to him.
Posted by: CS | May 14, 2008 10:39 AM
I am not sure if this has been mentioned already, but the trademark of Curious George belongs to Houghton Mifflin http://www.hmco.com/products/products_children.html
they cam be contacted here trade_permissions@hmco.com.
Posted by: Mena | May 14, 2008 10:42 AM
Isn't the point of the shirt (to Doron Braunshtein at least) that it's art? That would explain the $250 price tag. Apparently I'm not the only science type who doesn't "get" art! I'm not alone! :^)
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbCHimp | May 14, 2008 10:44 AM
Oh Please. The intent is obvious. There is a well established history of racists using monkeys as an image to denigrate blacks.
Posted by: m. dorian | May 14, 2008 10:48 AM
Obviously, I'm no evolutionary anthropologist. If we didn't come from apes, then we came from humanoids (australopithecus, maybe cro-magnons, neanderthals, homo sapien sapiens, whatever). The point is, why do people think african-americans are more like monkeys than caucasians or asians or anyone else for that matter?
It's not like black people are any genetically closer to chimpanzees than white people. The shirt is only truly racist for people who are already racist. It really shouldn't offend those of us who know better...
Posted by: Tom | May 14, 2008 10:50 AM
Thanks for the suggestion #10, but I find FUCK YOU, ASSHOLE to be suggestively succinct, in an almost haiku-like way.
Posted by: Colugo | May 14, 2008 10:53 AM
Obama's first name, Barack, is Hebrew in origin (Barak). Example: Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak.
Posted by: J-Dog | May 14, 2008 10:53 AM
I thought that the monkey was a slam at George W. Except everybody knows that a monkey' smarter.
Posted by: m.dorian | May 14, 2008 10:54 AM
"Oh Please. The intent is obvious. There is a well established history of racists using monkeys as an image to denigrate blacks."
OK. Point taken. Sad though that people think this way.
Posted by: Stephen Ockham | May 14, 2008 10:54 AM
Don't feed the concern troll.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | May 14, 2008 10:54 AM
Without context, I couldn't say that the t-shirt is racist at all. And some of his points against Obama should be considered political fair game. But the "Hussein" crack, plus "and his family from his Kenyan father's side is Muslim" are pure bigotry.
The good thing is, not many are likely to buy his shirt at that price.
Oh well, at least it gives other Jews a chance to show themselves as better than he appears to be.
However, what would most concern me is that both Norman and this guy are getting a lot of free advertising with these blurbs on the blogs. I don't see why this should be.
Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: brokenSoldier | May 14, 2008 10:54 AM
Posted by: m. dorian | May 14, 2008 10:39 AMIts probably true that Obama is above letting this sort of thing get to him, but that has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that it is racist. And "postmodern white liberal guilt" has nothing to do with comparing a black man to a monkey. It might if the shirt were intended to compare Obama with anything involving the character of Curious George, but I don't believe that's the case here. The plain fact is that a guy from Georgia slapped a monkey on a shirt with Obama's name on it. The very reason he used Curious George is because it is a recognized character that offered an alternative explanation to hide the racism inherent in the statement he made.
Posted by: Michelle | May 14, 2008 10:55 AM
When it comes down to races it's always tricky. You can't insult Obama, who's black, as easily as you can insult say... Bush. Who's a white rich texan. Insulting a white guy on a shirt will rarely make front news. But there's so many racist insults that you... pretty much CAN'T insult a guy of a different color than white because you can always turn it into a racist insult. And in the end, that's pretty racist for white folks too. Call Bush a monkey and people will agree that he has the face of a monkey and acts like one (Don't you agree?). Call Obama a monkey and you're racist.
I pretty much dream of the day when races will stop mattering. So he's black. Whoopeedoo. I don't owe him anything because I'm white. And the idea that people will vote for him just because he's black sickens me. What about the actual ideas? REmember the start of the campaign? Back when Clinton was actually someone to be bothered about? I saw an article... "Black women being stuck in a dead end! They don't know who to vote for! The race or the gender?"
Now that I said all...
Come the fuck on. That shirt was totally meant to be racist.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 14, 2008 10:57 AM
I can see why the shirt could be offensive, but we all really need to get past postmodern white liberal guilt here
Because, of course, racism is dead.
Posted by: H.H. | May 14, 2008 11:00 AM
How stupid do you have to be to even try to make the argument you just did?"People who know better" will be offended by racism even though they consider racism factually incorrect. Racism remains racism whether one agrees with it or not, dumbass. And the shirt should offend those who don't agree with its message. That's exactly who should be offended. Do you think it will offend those who agree with the message?
Don't try to hide your racism under such flimsy rationales. It just makes you look that much stupider.
Posted by: m.dorian | May 14, 2008 11:03 AM
"I can see why the shirt could be offensive, but we all really need to get past postmodern white liberal guilt here"
"Because, of course, racism is dead."
OK. It's racist. I didn't say it wasn't; i was just trying to present a different way of thinking about this...
Posted by: Mark B | May 14, 2008 11:06 AM
And the idea that people will vote for him just because he's black sickens me.
Really? I can think of a lot more important stuff to get worked up about. And, in my opinion, it's more complicated than that. He's getting 90% of the black vote in the primaries because they see him as someone who can actually do something about racial equality, instead of just paying lip service to it, which has been the Democratic game plan since the 60s. LBJ got civil rights legislation through congress, but there's been little progress since then. He's symbolic to a degree, but he also represent real progress towards racial equality. Why shouldn't they vote for him?
Posted by: Ygern | May 14, 2008 11:08 AM
The difference here is that Braunshtein is declaring publicly that he is a bigot himself by wearing this (hugely over-priced) T-shirt; whereas the Mike Norman one was making a derogatory comment about someone else.
Anyone who insists on wearing a $250 shirt saying (and I paraphrase) 'I am a racist twit' is fine by me.
Posted by: mkuriluk | May 14, 2008 11:10 AM
@H.H.
"Don't try to hide your racism under such flimsy rationales. It just makes you look that much stupider."
regardless of how m.dorian's statement fails to consider the realities of race and culture, there's no need to jump down his throat like that.
Posted by: Chris Crawford | May 14, 2008 11:35 AM
The $250 price tag for a shirt worth $5 represents the seller's best assessment of the intelligence of likely customers.
Posted by: H.H. | May 14, 2008 11:35 AM
No, he didn't "fail to consider the realities of race and culture." He stupidly remarked that people shouldn't be offended by racist sentiments unless they agree with them. This was a not-so-veiled attempt to paint anyone who finds the shirt racist as racists themselves. You don't think that sort of malicious libel should be vigorously countered as soon as it crops up? Because I sure do.Posted by: Michelle | May 14, 2008 11:41 AM
@Mark B: You totally twist my point.
There are a SHITLOAD of folks out there that vote just because of his FLESH COLOR. And why would he do more for "race equality" than your other person that is say... white and says they'll do the same.
He's a frickin' politician. They lie.
Posted by: Icelander | May 14, 2008 11:52 AM
This makes me wonder: Is there a market for $250 shirts that say "Jews for Obama?"
Cause I'd love a new home theater.
Posted by: mkuriluk | May 14, 2008 12:04 PM
@32 I just think it seems a bit premature to dismiss him as a racist for sharing what seemed to be a fairly benign point. I interpreted his statement as essentially saying: we're all equally related to monkies so what is there to get worked up about and that when looked at solely on its face, comparing a white person to a monkey is no different than comparing a member of any other race to a monkey.
The problem with his statement is that it fails to take into account the historical use of such a horrendous comparison, in places like Georgia amongst many others, and the connotation it carries.
Posted by: H.H. | May 14, 2008 12:15 PM
mkuriluk, m.dorian's comments would have us believe that waving a noose in front of a black person can't be racist since "it's just knots in rope" and "you'd already have to be racist to see the connection."
Could someone really offer such a foolish argument out of honest naivety? I suppose it's possible, but it would still be fair to point out the gross stupidity of such an argument.
Posted by: mk | May 14, 2008 12:27 PM
"... t-shirts implying Obama is a monkey..."
Um...Curious George is an ape. Well actually, he's a cartoon...but a cartoon ape, not monkey.
Posted by: Don | May 14, 2008 12:34 PM
It's not just Georgia, or The South, or the US. Not too long ago it was common for football crowds in the UK to direct monkey chants and hurl bananas at opposing black players. It was stamped on hard and is now (AFAIK) more or less unknown. But only a couple of yersa ago black England players received the same treatment in Spain, leading to a major international row.
It's racist and it is disingenuous of anyone to pretend that there is any hint of ambiguity about that. Are they going to suggest that the banana represents their concern that Obama is not getting enough potassium and B6?
Normally I'm all for giving the benefit of the doubt, but when racist abuse is as clear-cut and overt as this, pretending to see a benign explanation is a sign of bad faith.
Posted by: octopod | May 14, 2008 12:48 PM
#18, I think "Barack" is some other random Semitic variation on the word "baruch" (blessed), not necessarily the Hebrew one. I suppose one ought to ask the former Prime Minister though.
FTR, "Hussain" is historically associated with Hussayn ibn-Ali, but it's an older name than that -- it's the diminutive of "Hasan", which means handsome, and has historically been insanely common. So, that is, the crazy peoples' claim that he's a secret Muslim is basically like claiming someone's a secret Catholic because his name is Peter.
Posted by: Doug | May 14, 2008 12:52 PM
A shirt that cost, at the most, $5 to make is being sold for $250? Anyone who is dumb enough to pay that much is dumb enough to vote for McCain.
The "fashion designer" otherwise known as anyone with photoshop and a printer, is so dumb he fails to note that Barack's dad isn't a Muslim, he's an Atheist. Not to mention that Barack didn't choose his own name and 47 years ago nobody heard of Saddam Hussein so the middle name is irrelevant.
The stupidity of people simply never fails to surprise me.
Posted by: Christopher Olson | May 14, 2008 12:55 PM
'Hussein' is not an arab name, it's of semitic origin. Juan Cole had a enlightening discussion of this sort of anti-semitism in a February post.
http://www.juancole.com/2008/02/barack-hussein-obama-omar-bradley.html
Posted by: mkuriluk | May 14, 2008 12:56 PM
@ h.h. fair enough.
Posted by: Julie Stahlhut | May 14, 2008 1:01 PM
I'd be happy to wear a T-shirt adorned with a picture of a chimp and the slogan SMARTER THAN MIKE NORMAN. Or maybe one that read JEWS, CHRISTIANS, MUSLIMS, HINDUS, WICCANS, AGNOSTICS, ATHEISTS, AND NONE OF THE ABOVE AGAINST DORON BRAUNSHTEIN.
Then again, both of these people are justifiably obscure, so it would all be a potential waste of cloth and ink.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | May 14, 2008 1:02 PM
Arabs are Semites, arabic a Semitic language.
It is an arab name, but not only an arab name.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Sili | May 14, 2008 1:21 PM
Indeed Obama won't care - so he'll go on expressing his continued support for Israel, should he win the election.
Bother ...
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | May 14, 2008 1:42 PM
Christopher Olson @ # 41 - thanks for an informative and apropos link!
Doron "Apollo Braun" Braunshtein's self-chosen name really reflects great pride in his Jewish heritage, doesn't it?
Is there any evidence whatsoever that this dipshit Warhol-wannabe has sold even one of his $250 dustrags?
Posted by: Rey Fox | May 14, 2008 1:47 PM
"More than that, after Obama's pastor, Jeremiah Wright honored Louis Farrakhan - definitely one of the most racist and anti-Semitic people alive - Obama lost us Jews totally. That made me start this political movement in the first place."
Wow, two whole degrees of separation there. And his middle name is Huseeeeeiiin. And my vote is going to be cancelled out by this preening douchebag.
Posted by: Nentuaby | May 14, 2008 1:48 PM
It took me a while to realize (and be appalled by) what was actually going on in the curious george shirt.
At first I thought it was PRO Obama. "Replace Curious George Bush."
Posted by: Helioprogenus | May 14, 2008 2:14 PM
I have noticed how a disproportional large number of Jews seem to be inclined to vote for Clinton over Obama. There are many theories as to why, but I would assume it has to be with Clinton's stance towards Israel, and the Jewish lobby. I suppose they feel that Clinton would better represent their issues whereas Obama is more of an unknown. His talk on opening diplomatic channels with Iran, is controversial with the Jewish lobby, because they're forcing the government to keep any antagonists isolated. This is not how democracy works, and as in the case with Jimmy Carter, his presence in attempting to bridge a gulf with Hammas was met by scorn, anger, frustration, and intense displeasure by the Jewish lobby.
Before anyone attacks my position here as anti-semitic, let me just say that I'm just trying to identify the Clintophilia among Jews, and in doing so, let's remember that no political entity is above criticism. If I made the same critique of Syrian leadership, of which I have numerous times, few would call me racist towards Syrians. My only problem here is the coercive influence that the Jewish lobby represents in modern day American thought. This escalating tension with Iran, further commitment to Middle Eastern affairs is hardly beneficial to our economy or future, yet, as liberal minded as the Jewish lobby happens to be in most issues, when it comes to Israel, their policies border on militant and conservative. I'm not advocating that we should totally abandon Israel to deal with the Middle Eastern countries alone, but we should limit our hypocritical policies and militant views on the matter. For example, attempting to prevent the acquisition of nuclear weapons by Syria, Iran, and North Korea, whilst turning a blind eye to the nuclear weapons that exist in Israel (an entity along with the US that hasn't signed the nuclear non=proliferation treaty) is exactly the type unilateral policies that have lead us astray.
Let's remember that this is simply facts that I'm laying out which is being heavily censored by our society. There are no racist or anti-semitic overtones.
Posted by: Azkyroth | May 14, 2008 2:25 PM
...doesn't this guy realize how much he's playing into racists' hands by advertising his Jewishness while charging an unfair price? x.x
Posted by: Patricia C. | May 14, 2008 2:31 PM
Hey Doug #40 - How did you find out Obama's dad is an atheist? I've been under a rock on that one. Wow.
Posted by: An ape | May 14, 2008 2:43 PM
Obviously he doesn't know anything about primates. Monkeys have tails.
Posted by: Ouchimoo | May 14, 2008 3:25 PM
Patricia C., I heard that his father was an atheist as well. Actually, I read it off of a link from Digg. Though, now I can't find a trustworthy source so I question it's validity.
Posted by: Sloegin | May 14, 2008 4:00 PM
The Jewish slur should be as obvious as the Obama one.
If one has had extended contact with such social neanderthals while growing up or had more exposure to the uglier side of American history, the slur is obvious as it is odious.
(Hint: Jews have all the money, hence the price of the shirt)
Posted by: SomeGuy | May 14, 2008 4:05 PM
#48 The GW Bush - Chimp thing has been done to death over the last eight years so its a little amusing when someone suddenly cries foul now that a lefty gets it. Obama does in fact bare an uncanny resemblance to Curious George as does GW Bush (or "Chimpy" as some moonbats refer to him). But in some bizzaro-PC world its apparently fine to caricature a white guy as a chimp but its racist to do the same to a half black guy.
Some people will climb any mountain, turn over every rock looking for anything that might conceivably be offensive. Even if the only way to see it is look just away from it and squint.
Posted by: Jud | May 14, 2008 4:10 PM
Glen D wrote: Oh well, at least it gives other Jews a chance to show themselves as better than he appears to be.
Don't see how either Braunshtein's shirt or any response to it should reflect on other Jews. I don't know Braunshtein, don't have his phone number, and I'm not getting a cut of his sales, so why would his idiocy show anything at all about me?
Oh, and while I'm at it: Helioprogenus doesn't want to be attacked as anti-Semitic just because "the Jewish lobby" has "lead (sic) us astray." Heh - mighty subtle, there, Helio.
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 14, 2008 4:18 PM
@#9 Janine ID --
Because "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." They explain it pretty clearly here.
Among the "proud Jews" espousing this view is Joe Liberman. Depressing....
Posted by: noncarborundum | May 14, 2008 4:25 PM
I'm all for your freedom to toss your vote away on a Libertarian if that's what floats your boat, but if you are in a contested state, please don't vote for anybody except the one candidate who can keep McCain out of the White House. And that, for better or worse, is going to be Barack Obama.
Posted by: Chironex | May 14, 2008 5:04 PM
Wow.
A) I'm Jewish, and an Obama supporter (albeit my family being Hillary Freaks).
B) Obama is officially supported by the Reform Jewish movement (not that I'm greatly affiliated with my "religion").
C) Obama has COMPLETELY cut his ties with the racist pastor, and all theories about him being a Muslim conspirator against the USA are born on the web and proliferated via email.
D) Obama supports Israel, which is obviously a plus for me.
E) I second the aforementioned notion that this guy who is advertising his Judaism while selling T-Shirts at outrageous prices is just confirming stereotypes, the last thing we need.
F) is the grade that Norman and Braunshtein get on their "Good Person" report cards.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | May 14, 2008 5:30 PM
Really, Jewish responses to it wouldn't reflect on other Jews? You must live somewhere other than earth.
And I didn't come close to saying that Braunshtein's shirt would or should reflect on other Jews.
Basically I was just noting that evidently few Jews agree with him. That should not have been so hard to figure out.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Avekid | May 14, 2008 6:20 PM
I may be wrong, but I'm not sure about that. The shirt's being marketed as "art" -- would explain the price without appealing to a racist stereotype that, in this context, wouldn't really make any sense.
Posted by: Chuck | May 14, 2008 7:16 PM
In response to #6 and # 17...
Tommy,
Did you spend time in the public school system of Marietta, GA ? It sounds as though they really stifled your vocabulary considerably, as well as your sense of humor.
Although you do have many rolling in the aisle at your level of 'righteousness' over a cute lil' animated cartoon logo promoting BHO. And I see you and others have taken "Obama '08 " under the cute lil' caricature, to be including ALL those who have skin color (would that be all blacks, all half-negroid/half-caucasion, or just those people who have big ears and are cute?) like Obama. In your frame of reference and logic, "...they all look alike..", correct ? Or can you be racist against one specific person ? ... and not be racist against all others in your imagined scope of bigotry?
As you are all-knowing by way of your lofty public education, you have determined that Mike Norman is a racist; you don't even know him. And at the very moment you care calling Mike Norman a racist, you are likening your vile, and vulgar tripe phrase, to that of Japanese poetry. You are the one who is denigrating a beautiful people, which I personally take offense of, by way of your 'feeling' and inability to free yourself of that public school education that you wallowed in for so many years !!
You know more of bhO than you know of Mike Norman, and I suppose you are voting for the socialist, anti-American financed by g. soros. You excoriate someone unknown to you (a simple bar-owner), and yet you fail to perform an objective analysis of a truly destructive force to our entire nation !!
And for #28 Mark B.
... you want to chase racism ??? Then reassess your observation of bhO getting 90% of the black vote, and lil' ol' whitey, hrc, getting only 45 - 50% of the white vote. Now put your thinking cap on, with the spinning top, and ask yourself... 'where IS the racism !??! You might also ask yourself which candidate has been entrenched in a BLACK church (whatever that is !!!!) for over 20 years, and whose principal beliefs are to NOT assimilate into the white 'racist' community, that is unless you can fundraise.
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 14, 2008 7:23 PM
SomeGuy=Some Dude?
hope not.
sock puppetry is frowned upon.
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 14, 2008 7:25 PM
'where IS the racism !??!
I'm looking right at it.
Posted by: tony | May 14, 2008 7:33 PM
Chuck @ 62:
WTF?
Very erudite. Lot's of fine words. But ultimately what they amount to is an apologists stance: How can you be sure the image was racist? isn't Obama racist in his own way? and so on.
You sir are a Sock Puppet, and unworthy of the pixels wasted upon your words.
Tony
Posted by: tony | May 14, 2008 7:35 PM
sorry - in the above - I left a stray apostrophe (before the other Nazi's descend upon me!)
Posted by: Chuck | May 14, 2008 7:37 PM
... and addressing # 64 ...Ichthyic ...
I would love to hear your explanation and logic of the racism you are "...looking right at it." But that would require a bit more exposition of yourself. So, as not to make anyone feel bad, or challenged, I will accept your insightful rebuttal, taking into account your public school education.
You done good.
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 14, 2008 7:39 PM
You done good.
thanks chuck.
I'll let others judge the merit of the observation.
Posted by: tony | May 14, 2008 7:43 PM
Did you know, that in parts of the UK 'Chuck' is a euphymism for 'vomit'?
Posted by: Chuck | May 14, 2008 7:47 PM
Tony # 65
Well, Tony, I apparently did not express myself well enough in my original entry, because I was actually trying to suggest that Tony was assigning a false argument of racism to Mike Norman, by Tony in #6.
I personally don't believe that Mike Norman's T-Shirt is racist. He is attributing the characteristics of a cute lil' monkey to one person - bhO. And if you are looking at that one person (truly scrutinizing the man), I believe he is getting off extremely LIGHT !!
It is truly sad that so much time is wasted on silly racist charges, to the detriment of actually sharing and exchanging thoughts on who would have the better platform to be commander-in-chief and the top executive of the land.
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 14, 2008 7:51 PM
I personally don't believe that Mike Norman's T-Shirt is racist.
then you didn't bother to read the rest of the article, or you're lying.
shocker.
keep your head firmly planted up your ass, eh?
It is truly sad that so much time is wasted on silly racist charges, to the detriment of actually sharing and exchanging thoughts on who would have the better platform to be commander-in-chief and the top executive of the land.
then find one of the many thousands of threads on the various political blogs where just that issue is being discussed, right now, and leave your "insights" there, Mr. concern troll.
because this is a thread relating to the issue of racism.
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 14, 2008 7:53 PM
here ya go, upchuck:
http://my.barackobama.com/page/content/hqblog
you can debate the merits of an Obama presidency with the people who actually might care what you have to say.
Posted by: tony | May 14, 2008 7:53 PM
Vomit - you are a Sock Puppet.
This thread is not about the presidential candidate Obama, nor about his qualities (or lack) for the presidency.
This is about a fuckwit bar-owner in Marietta, Ga who thinks it 'funny' to pander to his white-supremacist racist-fuckwit barflies, and whose latest innovation is a t-shirt associating Obama and Curious George.
Perhaps you are simply unable to read more than a few words at a time, and hence have been unable to read all of the posts that make this stance clear? Perhaps you failed to read the AJC article espousing the man's very words and his stance?
or perhaps you are simply a fuckwit yourself?
tony
Posted by: Chuck | May 14, 2008 7:55 PM
Ichy ... and Tony ...
I will follow your suggestion....
Arguing about non-existent events, and name-calling learned from the 2nd grade playgrounds of your public school system, are not what I intended to spend my time on.... You have been enlightening.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | May 14, 2008 7:58 PM
Here's my T-shirt; how much do you think I could sell it for?
"SWEDISH/ITALIAN-AMERICANS KIND OF FOR OBAMA
(but mostly because the other choice is a pandering reactionary fossil)"
Posted by: JRS | May 14, 2008 8:00 PM
#57 - That video couldn't possibly have been real. Senators and House Speakers attending a conference full of crazy people waiting with much glee for the end of the world to come? That's just not possible.
Someone must have done a wonderful job of splicing them in there, somehow...
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 14, 2008 8:14 PM
@#76 JRS --
'Fraid it is. Lieberman even posted his full speech from the conference on his .gov website here.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | May 14, 2008 8:17 PM
I just watched that video too, and golDAMN Lieberman's creepy! (Well, Hagee and Santorum and DeLay too, but that goes without saying)
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 14, 2008 8:22 PM
I'm learning something today, and I never knew it before. Being white totally sucks. I mean, we're so oppressed that we can't call black people monkeys, and we can't use certain words, and, well, it's just not fair that so many of those rights are taken away from us. We really are the wretched of the earth.
Right Chuck?
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | May 14, 2008 8:29 PM
They're taking our words away???
That's just niggardly of them.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | May 14, 2008 10:06 PM
New Shimmer is a floor wax and a dessert topping!... According to the almighty wiki, Obama, Sr. was originally a Muslim, but abandoned the faith and became an atheist before moving from Kenya to the U.S. FWIW, Obama's stepfather was Indonesian, so he might well have been a Muslim... but he doesn't have a wiki and I'm too busy to do much searching.
Posted by: Escuerd | May 14, 2008 10:30 PM
Brokensoldier @#8 "I wonder what this guy thinks about Hagee, Buchanan, Falwell, or any of the other neo-con Christian zealots that have mobilized the majority of the Republicans' electoral support over the past 25+ years?"
I know that many Israeli Jews are hesitant to criticize fundamentalist Christians who talk about Jews going to hell because they find so many of them to be useful idiots. In particular, I got this impression while watching an interview with Benjamin Netanyahu. When asked how he felt about such people and their beliefs about Jews, he was hesitant to be critical, and focused more on how they have been beneficial to him and his country. I think this allows him to shrug off the currently inconsequential parts of their beliefs.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | May 14, 2008 11:08 PM
Isn't "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" a Jewish maxim? As long as the fundies are also neocons who can be relied on to attack any suggestion of compromise or negotiation with Israel's belligerent neighbors... what's not to like?
IANAJew, but my impression is that Judaism focuses rather less on the afterlife than Christianity does... plus which, I'm guessing a significant fraction of politically active Jews aren't particularly religious anyway... so it might be pretty easy for many of them to just shrug off the fundie-cons' horror-porn visions of eternal punishment.
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 15, 2008 2:59 AM
I'm guessing a significant fraction of politically active Jews aren't particularly religious anyway
read the thread on Einstein for more commentary on that.
basically, you're right in the sense that Jews are not primarily concerned with beliefs.
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/05/einstein_on_gods_and_judaism.php
Posted by: melior | May 15, 2008 6:18 AM
Hmmm, are Jews actually "against Obama"?
Let's look for some recent data on Google... Hey, here's some:
Just another Republican lie, that's all.
Posted by: Jud | May 15, 2008 7:14 AM
I wrote: Don't see how either Braunshtein's shirt or any response to it should reflect on other Jews.
Glen D responded: Really, Jewish responses to it wouldn't reflect on other Jews? You must live somewhere other than earth.
My remark = "shouldn't," your response = "wouldn't," there's the difference. Yah, I'm not anywhere near naive enough to believe it *wouldn't* reflect.
Glen D wrote: Basically I was just noting that evidently few Jews agree with [Braunshtein]. That should not have been so hard to figure out.
Cool.
Posted by: Gingerbaker | May 15, 2008 9:33 AM
I will NOT brook bigotry in any of its forms.
Curious George is a good little monkey,, not an ape.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | May 15, 2008 3:19 PM
The way you used "should" is generally used in much the same manner as "would" could be used. Here's an example describing such use, and a phrase indicating "expectation":
I used "would" (well, "wouldn't") because I was referring to the state of humanity, not an expectation, as it appeared that you had meant with your "should".
Here's another example just taken off of the web:
"...Why it should reflect" is not a conditional, at least not there, it is an expectation. I was disputing what appeared to be your expectation.
If you meant it as conditional, no problem. And no problem anyhow, I just thought I'd explain how it appeared to me.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Cpl. Cam | May 15, 2008 5:08 PM
I once made a shirt depicting both Bush and Kerry as monkeys, does that make me racist? Maybe the fact that I find the 250$ pricetag on the "Jews against Oboma" shirt laughably ironic does?
Posted by: brokenSoldier | May 16, 2008 11:19 AM
No, it is pretty much the real world where it is racist to do so, based on the intent behind the insult. With G.W. Bush, the comparison to Curious George is based in their common aloofness and their proclivity to get themselves into sticky situations through the combination of curiosity and ingorance. With Obama, the comparison is one of appearances, and the specific comparison of African-Americans to monkeys of any sort is one borne of racism, malice, and denigration.
So yes, comparing Curious Goerge is both valid and justifiable in Bush's case, while also being racist and malicious in Obama's case.
Posted by: SomeGuy | May 14, 2008 4:05 PMAnd some will do the very same thing to seek out an apologist exlanation for racist behavior, borne either out of a idealistic, snobbish worldview that such things are beneath today's society, or a more sinister motive of downplaying the validity of overty racist commentary - while also decrying the obviously transparent examples of race tension in this country - in order to keep the discussion out of mainstream discourse in an effort to stagnate progress towards true equality. In short, they downplay racism to make sure that their own racist views never come to light.
Posted by: Siduri | May 20, 2008 7:02 PM
This same guy also had a big sign in front of his establishment stating, "If only Hillary had married OJ." (Can't help but notice the lack of outrage on that one.)
Also: Curious George's lawyers are NOT happy.