…and this is a 
Nazis, gays, and Bryan Fischer
Category: Kooks
Posted on: May 18, 2008 4:17 PM, by PZ Myers
Shorter Bryan Fischer: Because the Nazis really hated homosexuals, they are nothing like the Religious Right. Or maybe it's that because the Nazis were gay, they didn't hate homosexuality enough, as the Bible clearly says you should.
I don't know. It's a confused mess of butchered history, so who knows what this guy is trying to say. He sure seems fascinated with butch Nazis abusing effeminate beautiful boys, though.
Politics
Comments
I think he's a little TOO obsessed with Nazis. As Shakespeare said, "The lady doth protest too much methinks."
Posted by: Alverant | May 18, 2008 4:22 PM
Expelled II: Homophobic Nazis persecuting homophobic creationists.
Seriously, they seem to have a kind of fascination with the Nazis. Not that there's anything wrong with that.
Well, yes there is, in case anyone misses the point.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | May 18, 2008 4:28 PM
I'm betting there is a leather cap and little leather trousers in his closet somewhere.
*warren just bought some
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 18, 2008 4:29 PM
The Nazis, like all evolutionists rejected intelligent design and hence say no intrinsic purpose in anything. Like the evolutionists of today, they saw nothing wrong with using the anus as a sex organ when it was clearly not designed to be one.
Like all evolutionists, the Nazis still had to deal with the witness of the Holy Spirit pointing out their sins even though they denied their existence. The "effiminate boys" reminded the Nazis of their sin brought on by their denial of the teleogical meaning of the anus, so they decided to kill them. The religion of evolutionism is cannibalistic as well as genocidal; evolutionists will often slaughter their own becuase other evolutionists are grim reminders of their own sin they spend their lifetime trying to deny!
Posted by: Pole Greaser | May 18, 2008 4:31 PM
I have to say that is one of the worst titles of a book I've ever seen.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 18, 2008 4:32 PM
Hi Poe
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 18, 2008 4:34 PM
Sounds like he fits all the requirements to become FIA president.
Posted by: slang | May 18, 2008 4:34 PM
Article:
So apparently you were fine being homosexual as long as you weren't girly about it...what absolute bullshit, but business as usual from this guy. (Try actually reading Mein Kampf before you spout off about what the Nazis did and did not actually believe in, and who they did and did not persecute. While it is true that some of them may have had an affinity for young boys, the beliefs of their party and worldview definitely held homosexuality in great contempt, specifically for religious reasons.
But since Brian Fischer can't seem to grasp this, maybe a more modern example is needed. We only need to go as far as Reverend Ted Haggard. Just ask him how much the non-effeminate homosexuals in his congregation are tolerated.
Just because someone might be gay underneath but hiding it does not mean that their party, or other affiliated group, shares their secret pleasures as tenets of belief. If modern evangelicals haven't taught you anything, Brian, it is that homosexuality is a subject that you guys need to tiptoe around, because you inevitably end up digging around in the sandbox and finding another one of your own kind in there. But then again, keep on digging - it seems to make certain ones among you face who they really are, while at the same time peeling just a little bit more of that hypocritical veneer that covers the fundamentalist worldview.
Posted by: brokenSoldier | May 18, 2008 4:38 PM
It seems to me that some christians in the US have remade the nazi empire to fit their version of history. I suppose it's good enough to fly under the radar in the US, but try and publish crap like this in Germany or other countries in Europe (you know, where that stuff actually happened) and you'll get your ass handed to you, in court if at all possible.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | May 18, 2008 4:49 PM
Clearly, the case that Darwinism leads to rough bare-backing is now complete.
Posted by: Jams | May 18, 2008 4:53 PM
PZ, what he's saying is that anyone who isn't a Turbo Christian (patent pending) is a Nazi. The focus on homosexuality is gratuitous and redundant because it goes without saying you can't be a Turbo Christian (patent pending) unless you hate the gays.
Posted by: Alligator | May 18, 2008 5:06 PM
Oddly, I thought this article was very clear and cogent (and utter bullshit).
Short Interpretation: Nazi's were nasty horrible human beings. The Nazi party was almost entirely homosexual and only persecuted effiminate gays because the were effiminate. Nazis also persecuted clergy.
Hence when the left accusation that the fundamental right are Nazis for their persecution of homosexuality is innacurate because we persecute homosexuals for different reasons. And since our hatred isn't Nazi hatred, our hatred is okay and justified. To wit:
The Nazis loved homosexuality but hated effeminacy and women whereas the Foundamental Right hate homosexuality but love effeminant straights and women.
The Nazis persecuted Jews but really, really persecuted the religious whereas the Foundamental Right love the Jews but the Jews weren't as really, really persecuted as the Foundamental Right were.
The Nazis were a bunch of homosexual and sexual perverts whereas the Foundamental Right are a bunch of upright heterosexual family folk.
The Nazis hated people in a bad way. The Foundamental Right hate people in a good way.
Clear and cogent. Clear and cogent.
Posted by: woozy | May 18, 2008 5:12 PM
Okay let's start the pool. My money is on him looking to screw young male pages. Who has got soliciting gay sex in airport bathroom? Getting high and having sexx with a gay prostitute? Rev. BigDumbChimp, can I put you down for gay sadomasochistic Nazi dungeon?
Posted by: Feynmaniac | May 18, 2008 5:18 PM
Lots of problems with this article. I was troubled by this paragraph:
Hitler's Brown Shirts, the dreaded SA, better known as "Storm Troopers," were the creation of another homosexual, Gerhard Rossbach, and Storm Troopers were almost exclusively homosexual. They also, sadly, comprised most of the leadership of the Hitler Youth, resulting in frequent instances of sexual molestation.
I thought it was generally understood that homosexuality and child molestation are two different and distinct things, just as heterosexuality and incest are two different and distinct things.
Posted by: Jackson | May 18, 2008 5:19 PM
The website pumping this book is quite disgusting; its mission: "To track, synthesize and expose the secret, social and political corruption of America's powerful, government financed Lesbian Mafia." They post the book online, but who could stomach reading it?
Posted by: aratina | May 18, 2008 5:20 PM
Googling Scott Lively (the author of this
bookwaste of innocent trees) brings up this "family"-obsessed website. The wholesome images of natural American family life on the left side of the page are actually kind of funnily over-the-top. The list of "recovery groups" is just depressing, though.Posted by: Etha Williams | May 18, 2008 5:31 PM
After reading Chapter 6- Homosexuality and Concentration Camps, I am truly disgusted that this sort of filth is published. It just goes beyond the pale of any form of basic human decency to write this stuff.
Posted by: Bride of Shrek | May 18, 2008 5:32 PM
Rev. BigDumbChimp: Warren just bought some? I don't think so. You're clearly confusing Hitler with L. Ron Hoover. Keep your bad guys straight. Er, correct.
Sheesh.
Posted by: XQJ-37 Pan-sexual Roto-Plooker | May 18, 2008 5:39 PM
This Fischer guy also has a rant about California's recent court ruling regarding same-sex marriage. Its title? "Tyranny alive and well in America." Oy vey.
Apparently Fischer has never heard of the tyranny of the majority. In his mind, if the majority of Americans oppose gay rights, then it's unconstitutional to protect them. There's also some legal mumbo jumbo about states rights and the fact that the California Constitution never mentions same-sex marriage (why the hell would it?), but the gist of the whole thing is: The majority hates gays. Judges must represent the will of the people. Therefore, giving rights to gays violates the majority's constitutional rights.
Durn those activist judges, upholding the rights of minorities! How dare they do something as unconstitutional as enforcing the Constitution?
I need to lie down for a minute.
Posted by: Joe Z. | May 18, 2008 5:41 PM
The usual "we were the persecuted ones" and "we were the only ones who fought back" crap from the religious right.
http://nobeliefs.com/Hitler1.htm illustrates just the depth of xtian involvement in the nazi state and even a cursory glance at a history luther will indicate the fundamental protestant foundations to the ideology behind nazism. The extreme parts of nazism are fundamentally dogmatic and are founded on xtian and more specifically protestant ideals with a pagan twist for garnish.
as for the pink swastika it really is a trashy text and sloppily written and researched. Many critiques are to be found online from various sources http://www.glinn.com/pink/apsc07.htm#P177. Many of its supporters words are to be found online too, but they seem to be all from the extremist xtian side trying to rewrite history to what they preach.
Posted by: harebel | May 18, 2008 5:46 PM
You are correct. My bad. Now me and my pygmy pony are off to the dental floss farm.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 18, 2008 5:51 PM
This guy is a prick. Clock his 'Defeating Darwin in 4 easy steps' bollocks to get an idea of how well informed he is.
http://www.renewamerica.us/columns/fischer/080418
Posted by: Flasherjack | May 18, 2008 5:53 PM
Rohm's SA (storm troops) had a high representation of homosexuals (not just pederasts), including Rohm himself. Hitler despised homosexuality, which is one of the reasons why he had Rohm assassinated on the Night of the Long Knives. Another motive was that Rohm was planning a 'second revolution' against the plutocrats and aristocracy. Hitler's blood purge of the Nazi Party was designed to eliminate deviationist tendencies within the National Socialist movement, including the 'National Bolshevik' faction of the Strasser brothers (which Goebbels belonged to before allying himself to Hitler).
Posted by: Colugo | May 18, 2008 5:58 PM
Right wingers tease me with their talk of lesbian mafias and feminist terrorist groups. WHERE CAN I FIND THEM?!? I want to subscribe to their newsletter!
Posted by: Karley | May 18, 2008 5:59 PM
Flasherjack beat me to it, but I was going to ask PZ if he'd seen the defeating Darwin article:
1st law of thermodynanimcs (prime mover argument, for which god of course gets a free pass).
2nd law (the law says things break down and the theory says the get more complex and laws outrank theories).
Fossils (no transitional forms).
Genes (Biochemical evolution has not been worked out in detail and no bacteria has ever been observed to change into a different species).
Amazing that people as ignorant as that can feel so proud of their lack of knowledge
Posted by: G. Shelley | May 18, 2008 6:01 PM
Oh, it all makes perfect sense!
All of the 2.5 million Nazis Storm Troopers were gay. In fact, pretty much all the Nazis were gay. Including Ernst Roehm, Heinrich Himmler, Gerhard Rossbach, Hermann Goering, and Adolf Hitler himself. In fact, the gays CREATED the Nazi party, all by themselves.
Oh, yes, the Nazis rounded up gay men, but only the girlie-swirlie ones, and less than one percent of the gay population were killed by Nazis. Most gay's deaths were accidental. The Nazis were all manly gays themselves. And they were way way meaner to the Jews -- and to the CHRISTIANS! They hated priests and were into the occult and stuff. In fact, the Nazis were all anti-Christian! (And pedophiles. Which of course makes them gay.) Oh, the poor widdle Christians. How they suffered!
So, in effect, saying that Christians who persecute homosexuals are acting like Nazis is dumb. It's the other way around. Nazis were gay, and Nazis persecuted Christians. Ergo, gays are bad and Christians are good. The Nazis only became horrific because they rejected Christianity and embraced homosexuality. So as long as gays are around, Nazis are right around the corner waiting to arise and destroy the world again, bwa ha ha ha ha.
And if you don't believe all this, you deserve to be spanked. By Bryan Fischer. So call him. He's waiting. He's even got his little leather britches on....
Posted by: Fran W | May 18, 2008 6:02 PM
aratina @15:
It seems pretty clear that the guy running it is not just homophobic but pretty seriously disturbed. As an example (all emphasis as in original): [...]
Posted by: Midnight Rambler | May 18, 2008 6:02 PM
Has McCain been on his knees begging for these folks' endorsement?
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 18, 2008 6:10 PM
Junk history like the Pink Swastika aside, some confusion arises from to the fact that Adolf Hitler is not the sole creator of Nazism. Think of increasingly smaller nested circles in a Venn diagram: European fascism, German fascism/national socialism, NSDAP, the Hitler faction of the NSDAP. The NSDAP came to dominate German fascism, and then the Hitler faction consolidated its control over the NSDAP. Eventually, Nazism dominated the international fascist movement, at least within the Axis. Because of that history, pro-Stalin/Slavophilic factions within German fascism were marginalized and Italian fascism became antisemitic. Regardless of the history of the SA, Nazism in power was anti-homosexual.
Posted by: Colugo | May 18, 2008 6:10 PM
Actually, a 'Lesbo Amazon Nation' sounds pretty great.
Posted by: Sideways | May 18, 2008 6:11 PM
So... wait. The Nazis just wanted to redecorate Europe?
Posted by: Anon | May 18, 2008 6:11 PM
I don't want to click. I don't want to click! But I cannot help myself.
Four easy steps? My goodness, these are among the oldest and most tired arguments ever used. "Second Law of Thermodynamics, All Mutations Are Harmful, We've Never Seen Evolution in Action blah blah blah". It's interesting that he mentions bacteria, though, considering the evolution of nylonase. We haven't seen bacteria evolve? Please. Oh, no, wait, what he's saying is that we haven't seen bacteria speciate.
Oh, and did you check out his diatribe on how fighting global warming is a crime against humanity? C02 isn't a greenhouse gas, he says! It's plant food! I want to hurt him. I want to hurt him badly.
And what's that way down in the right margin of the page? A link to a book advocating the conquest of Mexico? I won't even link to it. Just thinking about it makes me queasy.
Posted by: Joe Z. | May 18, 2008 6:15 PM
@#25 --
Not only has PZ seen it, he wrote a post about it. Check out the comments thread for some simultaneously frustrating and amusing "debate" with homo ipso, Bryan Fischer.
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 18, 2008 6:20 PM
@#30 Sideways --
Death by snu-snu?
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 18, 2008 6:22 PM
I have a strange fealing that when aliens invade Earth in 2012 as all the nutjobs say will happen, the aliens will happen to be gay.
MYOB'
.
Posted by: MYOB | May 18, 2008 6:34 PM
The four steps got debunked in an earlier article here...
The SA was indeed mostly gay. Hitler and the SS killed them all when they were no longer useful. How does that equate to loving homosexuals?
Oh, and they were all manly homosexuals, too.
Posted by: wazza | May 18, 2008 6:37 PM
Thirteen million psychotic lesbians and my friend Judy still can't get a date. So unfair.
This whole issue of butch vs fem gay men is bogus. The rules judging who is butch and who is fem must be written soemwhere in the Gay Agenda(tm), which, by the way, I still have not received. Do I have to subscribe? Is there a secret gay website?
Back to the butch/fem rules: is it a sliding scale? Does one win points for things like smoking cigars and lose points for wearing silk underwear? Is there a test one has to pass? Do you fail if you don't know all of the lyrics for "Dreamgirls" or is that a good thing?
Face it, most gay men fall somewhere in the middle, which means, realistically, if it were true, there were the 5% butch gays persecuting the 5% fem gays, leaving the 90% alone. Yep, that makes sense.
Posted by: wrpd | May 18, 2008 6:37 PM
#24:
I'll bet if you asked them, they'd say the ACLU. Not hot Lesbians in Leather taking revealing pictures of themselves subjagating men.
Posted by: Brendan S | May 18, 2008 6:45 PM
It's quite telling that these guys who are focused on homosexuality as one of the most serious issues facing the country never remember that lesbians exist. Kind of like skits where you see two guys getting close to each other and then reacting with a slap and yelling "fag". Real straight people don't actually care, and neither do well adjusted (out) gays. Hmmm...
Posted by: Mena | May 18, 2008 6:57 PM
Not ten percent of the men who preach from the pulpit are sexually normal either, I'd say, judging from court records and airport bathrooms.
Posted by: Dennis N | May 18, 2008 7:00 PM
I cannot believe this Bryan Fisher guy ... well, I should, since there is also all of that ID sss ... stuff, but I still cannot believe it. Anyway, I could not find a way to let him know this little secret example (there are many more, but that is an aside), come close to the screen (quietly!):
Have you heard of protein engineering? One of its aims is to be able to design changes in proteins to make them better at some thing or another. One thing they were working on, finding out how beta-lactamase changes from "destroying" one "form of penicillin" to destroying another (one of the antibiotic resistance problems). So, the strategy consisted in comparing the proteins acting on each of the different penicillin forms and then try introducing the changes in the other protein expecting to find the key mutations that way, but it was slow and painful, because it was a bit hard to distinguish the importance of one mutation over another. Well, some guy suddenly had success at changing the specificity of beta-lactamase very rapidly in the lab! Of course "intelligent design" ... ?? ... well, intelligent strategy maybe, the guy used an error prone PCR reaction on a beta-lactamase gene to get lots of mutant variants of the gene, randomly, to recombine the most successful variants from one cycle to another, and had a selection strategy, so in the end, the random mutations with selection ... wait wait, then random mutations can lead to active proteins with different specificities? Are you telling me that there is evidence that random mutations with selection works to produce healthy variants? Who would have guessed!
Now, I do not want to demerit the idea of protein engineering. The point is, mutation and selection do work to produce viable and powerful variants in the lab. But designing proteins is an excellent goal, should be feasible, and it is worth working on the problem. Especially because it is not easy to find selection strategies for everything we need in medicine, industry, and for advancing our understanding of how proteins work.
Posted by: Dr. G. | May 18, 2008 7:01 PM
The website has three adverts on the right-hand side for books about Terry Schiavo. That is so my new kook/idiot test.
Posted by: Tom Morris | May 18, 2008 7:03 PM
@#40 Dennis N --
And the ones not going for the little boys are going for the little girls.
My favorite part of the article is the megachurch's response to finding out that one of their pastors solicited sex from a 13 year old girl (well, really an undercover cop) online: they want to put it behind them (sound familiar?):
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 18, 2008 7:05 PM
This Fischer is an obvious dullard, since even I can spot it.
What do they mean by 'transitional fossils'? (that's a real question). Isn't the fact that there are all kinds of fossils from different periods transitional?
If these guys want to witness diversity, they should plant some columbines - those things mutate like crazy, and quickly.
How did all this crap get started, this 'evolution is a crock' thing? It's relatively new, after all - we studied evolution in school when I was a kid and I'm not exactly young anymore. Why do they have such a problem with it? Who are these nitwits, where did they come from and why is anybody paying any attention to them?
Posted by: Caveat | May 18, 2008 7:05 PM
Another amusing thing - he describes at the end how the neo-Nazi group the National Socialist League is only for gays. This is true. The way it is written makes it seem like it's a Nazi group that has been going since the time of the third Reich, when in fact it's a group founded in 1974. See The Fringe of the Fringe, a report on gay white nationalists and neo-Nazis.
Posted by: Tom Morris | May 18, 2008 7:08 PM
Transitional Fossils
That has a good run down on it.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 18, 2008 7:08 PM
Does anyone know where the lie "Hitler was an atheist" originated from? Surely it couldn't have been invented so many times independently. I'm curious to know.
Posted by: J | May 18, 2008 7:22 PM
Right wingers tease me with their talk of lesbian mafias and feminist terrorist groups. WHERE CAN I FIND THEM?!? I want to subscribe to their newsletter!
I was gonna mention the phrase 'government financed lesbian mafia' sorta... caught my interest...
Oh. Wait. I did it again, didn't I? Shared a little too much, right?
My apologies.
Posted by: AJ Milne | May 18, 2008 7:25 PM
I'm sure it's just a continuation of the idea held by some fundamentalist theists that all people who do bad things are atheists.
It's purely a tool they use try and advance their agenda.
Lying is one of their favorite tools.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 18, 2008 7:25 PM
This looks like some desperate blowback to me. Dawkins and Hitchens have slapped the fundies faces so many times with the fact that Hitler was a christian/catholic that they are now trying plan B.
Tagging on pagan and gay isn't going to change the fact. Strike two.
Posted by: Patricia C. | May 18, 2008 7:33 PM
This looks like some desperate blowback to me. Dawkins and Hitchens have slapped the fundies faces so many times with the fact that Hitler was a christian/catholic that they are now trying plan B.
Tagging on pagan and gay isn't going to change the fact. Strike two.
Thing is, it's not new.
Lively was the communications director for the Oregon Citizens' Alliance in the early 1990s. After they OCA's Ballot Measure 9 lost in 1992, he left and wrote "The Pink Swastika." Arlon Lindner, a member of the Minnesota House at the time, used the book to proclaim on the floor of the House that gays weren't persecuted by the Nazis, while also trying to remove people who were persecuted for being gay from the legal definition of Holocaust survivor. That was in 2003.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 18, 2008 7:44 PM
What the fuck is "sexually normal"? I'm sorry, I thought I was fairly well versed in sexuality, but obviously I've missed something.
Posted by: Dahan | May 18, 2008 8:03 PM
Once again, another wingnut simplifies things enormously in order to bash gays.
It helps to look at the facts (according to Wikipedia):
Ernst Röhm, a man Hitler perceived as a potential threat, and the leader of the SA, the Nazi Party's first militia, was discreetly gay until 1925 when he was outed by a Social Democratic newspaper that published a number of love letters written by Röhm, as were some other top leaders of the SA, such as Edmund Heines. After 1925, Röhm was quite open about his sexuality and was a member of the League for Human Rights, Germany's largest gay rights group.
[...]
In late February 1933, as the moderating influence of Ernst Röhm weakened, the Nazi Party launched its purge of homosexual (gay, lesbian, and bisexual; then known as homophile) clubs in Berlin, outlawed sex publications, and banned organized gay groups. As a consequence, many fled Germany (e.g. Erika Mann, Richard Plaut). In March 1933, Kurt Hiller, the main organizer of Magnus Hirschfeld's Institute of Sex Research, was sent to a concentration camp.
[...]
Shortly after the purge in 1934, a special division of the Gestapo was instituted to compile lists of gay individuals. In 1936, Heinrich Himmler, Chief of the SS, created the "Reich Central Office for the Combating of Homosexuality and Abortion."
Gays were not initially treated in the same fashion as the Jews, however; Nazi Germany thought of German gay men as part of the "Master Race" and sought to force gay men into sexual and social conformity. Gay men who would or could not conform and feign a switch in sexual orientation were sent to concentration camps under the "Extermination Through Work" campaign.
[...]
An account of a gay Holocaust survivor, Pierre Seel, details life for gay men during Nazi control. In his account he states that he participated in his local gay community in the town of Mulhouse. When the Nazis gained power over the town his name was on a list of local gay men ordered to the police station. He obeyed the directive to protect his family from any retaliation. Upon arriving at the police station he notes that he and other gay men were beaten. Some gay men who resisted the SS had their fingernails pulled out. Others were raped with broken rulers and had their bowels punctured, causing them to bleed profusely. After his arrest he was sent to the concentration camp at Schirmeck. There, Seel stated that during a morning roll-call, the Nazi commander announced a public execution. A man was brought out, and Seel recognized his face. It was the face of his eighteen-year-old lover from Mulhouse. Seel then claims that the Nazi guards stripped the clothes of his lover and placed a metal bucket over his head. Then the guards released trained German Shepherd dogs on him, which mauled him to death.
Posted by: CalGeorge | May 18, 2008 8:08 PM
@ #43 Etha Williams
Clearly, whenever a good Christian turns gay it's because the homosexuals are winning. The only thing you can do is forgive them, fix them, and continue on with the fight. At the end of the day, the thing that really matters is that good people realize that being gay is wrong.
Like every war, the war against gay possession will have it's casualties. They too should be honoured.
Posted by: Jams | May 18, 2008 8:08 PM
The Nazis also sent atheists to the concentration camps. But that doesn't stop the wingnuts from saying Nazism was atheistic. They make their own reality, after all.
Posted by: Bubba Sixpack | May 18, 2008 8:12 PM
An account of a gay Holocaust survivor, Pierre Seel, details life for gay men during Nazi control. In his account he states that he participated in his local gay community in the town of Mulhouse. When the Nazis gained power over the town his name was on a list of local gay men ordered to the police station. He obeyed the directive to protect his family from any retaliation. Upon arriving at the police station he notes that he and other gay men were beaten. Some gay men who resisted the SS had their fingernails pulled out. Others were raped with broken rulers and had their bowels punctured, causing them to bleed profusely. After his arrest he was sent to the concentration camp at Schirmeck. There, Seel stated that during a morning roll-call, the Nazi commander announced a public execution. A man was brought out, and Seel recognized his face. It was the face of his eighteen-year-old lover from Mulhouse. Seel then claims that the Nazi guards stripped the clothes of his lover and placed a metal bucket over his head. Then the guards released trained German Shepherd dogs on him, which mauled him to death.
I seem to recall seeing an interview with this survivor, although I could be wrong. There was a docu a couple years ago, with Rupert Everett as the host/narrator, interviewing gay survivors of the camps. When one man talks about living with the physical effects, for over 6 decades, of being raped with chunks of wood, well....
Lively and Fischer are without conscience.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 18, 2008 8:15 PM
It seems to me that some christians in the US have remade the nazi empire to fit their version of history.
I disagree, in fact when you have a President who rules over a country namely Iran, saying there are no homosexuals in his country. We see little outcry by the left which becomes very telling. It is because he's a Muslim and not a Christian? Conservatives have always called him a "Nazi" of our time as he has been known to put homosexuals to death if they don't repent back to Islam.
Posted by: Michael | May 18, 2008 8:20 PM
@#52 Dahan --
Heterosexual sex in the missionary position only, without birth control, preferably while the woman is in the most fertile phase of her menstrual cycle.
Or something like that.
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 18, 2008 8:20 PM
*headslap*
How did I ever fail to notice that it's conservatives standing up for the rights and dignity of gay people?!
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 18, 2008 8:22 PM
"I disagree, in fact when you have a President who rules over a country namely Iran, saying there are no homosexuals in his country. We see little outcry by the left which becomes very telling."
Yes, it tells you that we don't live in Iran and very little influence over the social dynamics of that country, and that their policies in turn affect us little. I regard Iran's treatment of homosexuals as barbaric in the extreme, but to expect me to raise an equal amount of fuss about the social climate of a country I do not live in as in one that I do, is just silly.
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | May 18, 2008 8:26 PM
@58.
Oh.
Well, I'm sorry, I just can't get into that sort of kink, but if it works for some people...
Posted by: Dahan | May 18, 2008 8:27 PM
"How did I ever fail to notice that it's conservatives standing up for the rights and dignity of gay people?!"
Yes, conservatives are liberal and liberals are fascists. Get with the program.
Posted by: Bubba Sixpack | May 18, 2008 8:27 PM
My favorite aspect of the "heterosexal=normal" thing is that when the term "heterosexual" was first coined, it referred to a category of sexual deviants--people who we might now consider "bi" ("hetero" meaning multiple) or those whose desires were linked to pleasure and not reproduction.
Heterosexuality became normal sexuality in the early decades of the twentieth century, as the men of the professional-managerial classes needed a means for establishing their masculinity, especially in relation to the physical laborers they were managing (after all, as we all "know," it's physical labor that makes one manly). Desire for women became a marker of middle class masculinity. Urban faeiries provided a social model of male femininity against which these professionals could contrast their newly established normal heterosexuality.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 18, 2008 8:28 PM
Maybe I should spell the matter out for them, since they'll never get it themselves--
The Nazis were anti-enlightenment types who operated according to prejudice.
The fundies are anti-enlightenment types who operate according to prejudice.
Both because of the history of the West, including Xianity, and because the two groups favor "their own," Nazis and fundies wish to sanction the persecution of gays (save the gay neo-Nazis, of course).
In fact, this does not mean that they are the same or highly similar to each other, for oppression has many degrees and manifestations.
The definite similarity is that both groups are oppressive to gays, and often to others as well. The lesson is that authoritarianism, oppression, and prejudice are the enemies, even though one group is not as oppressive as another one.
It's the oppression that matters, not whether or not certain gays are singled out for attack--even if this were true of the Nazis.
After all, what is their point? That Nazis didn't hate all of the homosexuals, but only certain ones? And the fundies are better because they hate them all the same? I fail to see why blanket discrimination is better than is more selective discrimination.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | May 18, 2008 8:33 PM
Storm Troopers were almost exclusively homosexual. They also, sadly, comprised most of the leadership of the Hitler Youth, resulting in frequent instances of sexual molestation. So, they had that in common with another reactionary, uniformed outfit..wait...it'll come to me.
as many as 100 boys and young men a day while raping them at his leisure. Alright, he just made that up; who has that much leisure time?
Nazi Germany became the horror that it was because it rejected both Christianity and its clear teaching about human sexuality. These are mistakes no sane culture should ever make again. I thought it was evolution and Darwinism> Stein...Stein...Stein.
Posted by: Tom M | May 18, 2008 8:46 PM
Little outcry from the left? Because he's a Muslim. You live in a very distorted and sheltered world Michael.
Posted by: Rev. bigDumbChimp | May 18, 2008 8:56 PM
@#65 Tom M --
It was both. You may not be aware of this, but The Gays and Big Science are working together to erode the moral foundations of society. Even today, those gay scientists are toiling tirelessly in their mission to destroy Christianity.
In all seriousness, though, this exploitation of the holocaust is really disgusting. I finally saw expelled yesterday, and in the seats in front of me, a group of children were watching in credulous horror as Stein talked about the dangers of "Darwinism" while showing photographs of emaciated holocaust survivors. After the movie I tried to approach the family to have a conversation about how the movie had distorted truth, told outright lies, and exploited a terrible tragedy for its own end, but before I could get more than a few words in, the parents carefully shepherded their children away from the dangerous atheist. Sad.
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 18, 2008 8:57 PM
The only truth in this guys statements is that the Nazis killed homosexuals. They didn't care about "butch-ness" one way or another. Remember how they justified nixing the Brown Shirts? By labeling all of them homosexuals. The factor that kept you alive as a homosexual in Nazi Germany was how good you happened to be at passing for straight. The effeminate gay community's persecution at their hands might have a higher profile do to their exposure in the Wiemar club scene (though my knowledge of the Wiemar period isn't in depth enough to say whether that is merely a common stereotype promulgated to discredit the Republic or based in fact), but the Nazis threw all manner of homosexuals in the death camps. If they found you out, you were dead.
Posted by: Julian | May 18, 2008 8:58 PM
bah, that should be "due" after profile.
Posted by: Julian | May 18, 2008 9:00 PM
I haven't been this offended in a while... usually I'm quite good and "mature" at dealing with hateful tripe, but this crossed so many lines...
Posted by: Shirakawasuna | May 18, 2008 9:02 PM
@27:
Ouch. Reminds me of this utterly unbelievably crazy rightwing shit from Canada:
http://fathersforlife.org/perseus/overview.htm
Yuck.
Posted by: Lacessia | May 18, 2008 9:05 PM
Michael @ #57:
I disagree, in fact when you have a President who rules over a country namely Iran, saying there are no homosexuals in his country. We see little outcry by the left which becomes very telling. It is because he's a Muslim and not a Christian? Conservatives have always called him a "Nazi" of our time as he has been known to put homosexuals to death if they don't repent back to Islam.
That's a lie, you liar. Those working for gay rights in Iran and trying to help gay people from Iran get asylum in other countries - often gay exiles from Iran and gay people within Iran working at great personal risk - are supported by allies on the left, who have been very vocal in their opposition to that government's policies. Conservatives care fuck-all about what happens to gay people in Iran, and only mention these fundamental violations of rights (which they support at home, to the extent that they can get away with it) if they can use them cynically to further their agenda to, as McCain so cheerfully sang, bomb Iran.
For anyone interested, here's one Canadian organization that needs support:
http://www.irqo.net/
Also, for true horror, Iran's punishment code on homosexuality:
http://www.irqo.net/IRQO/English/islamicpunishment.htm
Posted by: SC | May 18, 2008 9:06 PM
Michael: Go back and rad the news from when that information came out. There was a huge liberal outcry about it. The difference is that liberals aren't so reactionary that they're going to decide to bomb an entire country into the stone age just because that country's leader says something they don't like.
You can't legitimately believe that conservatives, who frequently kiss the feet of pastors that call on the U.S. government to segregate or exterminate homosexuality, who spent all of the 1940's and 50's labeling them mentally ill and defending electroshock as a cure, who have refused the Log Cabin Republicans a say in party policy since their founding, and go on television to defend upstanding straight boys when they crack a homosexual's skull open on the curb for kicks, are great defenders of the homosexual community and its rights, can you?
Posted by: Julian | May 18, 2008 9:07 PM
Heterosexual sex in the missionary position only, without birth control, preferably while the woman is in the most fertile phase of her menstrual cycle.
Hey, that means I'm still a virgin!
Steve Carell, eat your heart out.
umm, just to be clear it's missionary position ONLY, right?
Posted by: Ichthyic | May 18, 2008 9:14 PM
Bah! that should be "read" I'm obviously not in editor mode today.
Posted by: Julian | May 18, 2008 9:19 PM
Well, I, for one, welcome our new Lesbian Amazon Overlords!
Posted by: Charlie Foxtrot | May 18, 2008 9:20 PM
It is official: Nazis were homosexual evolutionists and definite atheists. Someone, finally, was able to connect the dots.
It may be relevant to point out Hitler could have been Jewish; it is speculated that his father was, in fact, the illegitimate child of a Jewish man. This is speculation, of course, but so are most of the points brought up by Mr. Fischer.
Hitler was also a vegetarian. The plot thickens. It seems the only victims of the holocaust were straight, white Christians.
"Even today in America, it is chic in some homosexual circles for individuals to wear replicas of Nazi Germany uniforms, complete with iron crosses, storm trooper outfits, military boots and even swastikas."
Uh, how does this guy know this? Do we have another Ted Haggard?
Posted by: Chris H. | May 18, 2008 9:24 PM
Don't click on the "Survivors....of the abortion holocaust" link to the right on that same page. You've been warned! It is pretty gruesome. From the site... "If you were born after 1972, we challenge you to consider yourself a Survivor of the Abortion Holocaust. 1/3 of your generation has been killed by abortion in America!"
I find it hard to believe their claim that 1/3 of our generation has been aborted. But what I find even more disturbing is the thought of millions of children being born into homes where they are either unwanted, uncared for, left in an orphanage or grossly neglected in some other way. Oh, wait, once I actually took the time to look over their site, I realized that it is chock full of right wing evangelical propaganda. What was I thinking?
Posted by: Intelligenceresigned | May 18, 2008 9:31 PM
Just how many homosexuals could there have been in Germany c. 1930?
With a population of just over 60 million, even with the ridiculously generous percentage of 10%, there could not have been more than one million in the cohort that would comprise the SA. And many of those would have been the effeminate ones that were persecuted. A good alternate hypothesis from Fischer's delusions could be that the SA bully boys were such good recruiters for butch homosexuality.
Posted by: natural cynic | May 18, 2008 9:41 PM