Evolution, development, and random biological ejaculations from a godless liberal
PZ Myers is a biologist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris.
…and this is a pharyngula stage embryo.
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A poet once said, 'The whole universe is in a glass of wine.' We will probably never know in what sense he meant it, for poets do not write to be understood. But it is true that if we look at a glass of wine closely enough we see the entire universe. There are the things of physics: the twisting liquid which evaporates depending on the wind and weather, the reflection in the glass, and our imagination adds atoms. The glass is a distillation of the earth's rocks, and in its composition we see the secrets of the universe's age, and the evolution of stars. What strange array of chemicals are in the wine? How did they come to be? There are the ferments, the enzymes, the substrates, and the products. There in wine is found the great generalization; all life is fermentation. Nobody can discover the chemistry of wine without discovering, as did Louis Pasteur, the cause of much disease. How vivid is the claret, pressing its existence into the consciousness that watches it! If our small minds, for some convenience, divide this glass of wine, this universe, into parts--physics, biology, geology, astronomy, psychology, and so on—remember that nature does not know it! So let us put it all back together, not forgetting ultimately what it is for. Let it give us one more final pleasure; drink it and forget it all!
Richard Feynman
The evolution of deuterostome gastrulation
A quick reply to some of the arguments made recently
Generating right-left asymmetries
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Category: Humor
Posted on: May 23, 2008 8:15 AM, by PZ Myers
Bob the Angry Flower retells the story of the bald prophet, Elisha. Man, if I had the power to summon angry she-bears, I wouldn't be siccing them on the children who made fun of my looks — I can think of much better targets for my wrath.
It's an odd choice for Bob, though. I'd think he'd be much more concerned about Jesus and that fig tree.
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Comments
. Man, if I had the power to summon angry she-bears, I wouldn't be siccing them on the children who made fun of my looks -- I can think of much better targets for my wrath.
Lackwitted parody trolls come to mind.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 23, 2008 8:18 AM
Now let's see that in a bible illustrated children book.
Wait! I think I'll do it!
Posted by: Michelle | May 23, 2008 8:21 AM
I've wondered; why she bears. Does this mean that god has considered supporting the feminist movement, but gave it up?
doov
Posted by: Duvenoy | May 23, 2008 8:33 AM
The venerable Bible scholar... what's his name again? (Just a sec...)
Okay. the venerable Bible scholar Bert Thompson says "children" should read "young adults." ( http://www.discoverymagazine.com/articles/d1999/d9911e.htm ) That makes it all better.
Posted by: mikespeir | May 23, 2008 8:37 AM
I went to Bert's groovy website, and saw this:
We today should learn a lesson from this story as well. We should treat people with respect, and obey those whom God has placed in positions of authority (Ephesians 6:1-3; Romans 13:1-4). By doing this, we will show our love for the Lord (read John 14:15).
No wonder Bush thinks that he's a king.
Posted by: Fred Mounts | May 23, 2008 8:41 AM
Mikespeir: I love this:
"...it is important to remember that God, not Elisha, used these bears to teach those young men an important lesson about respect and obedience. God is the One Who has power over the animal kingdom. He sent fiery serpents to bite the Israelites (Numbers 21:6); He sent a lion to slay a disobedient young prophet (1 Kings 13:24ff.); He prepared a great fish to swallow Jonah (Jonah 1:17); and He shut the lions' mouths in order to protect Daniel (Daniel 6:22).
We today should learn a lesson from this story as well. We should treat people with respect, and obey those whom God has placed in positions of authority (Ephesians 6:1-3; Romans 13:1-4). By doing this, we will show our love for the Lord (read John 14:15)."
Yes, I bet they were a lot more respectful and obedient after this, being torn to pieces and all. It's hard to be insolent when you're dead.
And what a perfect message to send to children growing up in a fascist society like ours... um... wait...
Posted by: wazza | May 23, 2008 8:42 AM
Judas is 'nice' too.
(I initially thought this was an old one since Bob's in my Saturday tabs because that otherwise a slow day.)
Posted by: Sili | May 23, 2008 8:55 AM
Let this be a lesson to all the children that are merely beaten by their parents in order to instill the fear of the big sky daddy in their disobedient skulls. Be grateful that it is not she-bears! They can survive most of the blows and broken bones.
Posted by: Janine ID | May 23, 2008 9:01 AM
If God really love us, he would give two angry she-bears to every bald man.
Don't you read the comic books.......all bald men are evil.
Posted by: Tony Popple | May 23, 2008 9:12 AM
Funny coincidence. I was just reading a big discussion of this very story over here:
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/10/go-up-thou-bald-head.html
Posted by: watercat | May 23, 2008 9:13 AM
Yep, that's one of my favorite bible stories. It shows god for what he really is, an evil petty entity who abuses his power to avenge childish insults. And apparently god is bald too.
Posted by: Alverant | May 23, 2008 9:17 AM
@#3: Maybe it's because female bears are supposed to be more pissed off than male bears? You know, with bear periods and all. Or maybe God shoved their youngs in there somewhere.
Posted by: Michelle | May 23, 2008 9:18 AM
A cut and paste from Monty P. (I hope you enjoy:)
Oh, Lord, Please Don't Burn Us
Oh Lord please don't burn us
don't kill or toast your flock
Don't put us on the barbecue
or simmer us in stock,
Don't bake or baste or boil us
or stir-fry us in a wok.
Oh, please don't lightly poach us
Or baste us with hot fat.
Don't fricassee or roast us
Or boil us in a vat,
And please don't stick thy servants, Lord,
In a Rotissomat"
--Composed by Eric Idle and John Du Prez, authored by Graham Chapman and John Cleese
Posted by: Umbo | May 23, 2008 9:27 AM
No doubt, the fig tree had it rough man. First, some desert bitches come and pick all his fruit. Then JC rolls up on him, thinks that he just doesn't have any fruit to bear, and curses him into oblivion. Poor fig, didn't even see it coming. Game over man.
Posted by: zer0 | May 23, 2008 9:27 AM
It's a great Bible story, but you still get in trouble trying to apply to your life after you learn about it in catechism (or Sunday school). When your mother finds you pounding on your kid brother and screams "What do you think you're doing!?", it's remarkably ineffective to say, "He called me a name and I don't have any bears."
Posted by: Zeno | May 23, 2008 9:33 AM
That was always one of myh personal favorites - tryit on the next JW when they come by to witness on ya.
I'd invite them in and see how long they would last until they asked to leave... my record was under a minute.
Posted by: tony (not a vegan) | May 23, 2008 9:36 AM
Well, little children would not be mature enough to read your books- to start with....
But again, why were children reading the prophets books?
And on the she-bears- wouldn't it be called bear-abuse? I mean they probably were sleeping peacefully somewhere...Do bears eat children? Or children bears? Curioser and Curioser...
Posted by: Allytude | May 23, 2008 9:42 AM
No, this bible story is legit. Elisha was right to send the bears after the little snots. They deserved it. Bald guys deserve to be treated right. As mentioned above, if God really loved us, he'd give all bald guys two she-bears at their disposal. I'd use them well...
Posted by: Pablo | May 23, 2008 9:53 AM
@ Duvenoy: something Kipling also knew:
"When the Himalayan peasant meets the he-bear in his pride
He shouts and waves a stick, the beast will often turn aside
The she-bear thus affronted rend the peasant tooth and nail
The female of the species is more deadly than the male"
Posted by: Al | May 23, 2008 9:57 AM
I've never quite understood the attraction of making fun of bald guys, since bald=hot. Well, except for Lex Luthor. And Dr. Evil. All the rest of them, though.
Posted by: Carlie | May 23, 2008 9:58 AM
Ummm...Professor X is bald, and so is the Silver Surfer...
Posted by: Dennis N | May 23, 2008 10:07 AM
From # 9:
"If God really love us, he would give two angry she-bears to every bald man."
Nice job, Tony.
Posted by: Tom | May 23, 2008 10:32 AM
No, no, the very best Bible selection is Deuteronomy 25:11-12. Clearly written by the same being who created the galaxies, humanity, and physics itself!
Posted by: Ray Ingles | May 23, 2008 10:43 AM
Now I know how to spell siccing.
Posted by: Gern Blanston | May 23, 2008 10:53 AM
Professor X is evil?
Posted by: jsn | May 23, 2008 11:01 AM
Wait, I thought bears were godless killing machines.
Posted by: Tophe | May 23, 2008 11:01 AM
One of my very favorites too. My NAB translates it as "Go up Baldhead", leaving out that "thou". Of course, it means "Up your's baldy!" It must have been fun, or at least very interesting, back in the days when God was actively involved in the affairs of Man. Good times. rb
Posted by: arby | May 23, 2008 11:06 AM
I love when clueless skeptics try to play Bible scholars and attempt to wrap their tiny little narrow minds around biblical stories.
Posted by: jsn | May 23, 2008 11:07 AM
I WANT MY SHE-BEARS!
Posted by: Baldy | May 23, 2008 11:08 AM
jsn@28:
so... you mean this is one of the "literal word of god" parts that we're supposed to treat as a metaphor?
And you know this... how? Devine revelation? a lucky guess? it told you so in a fortune cookie?
What?
Inquiring minds... Want. To. Know!
Posted by: tony (not a vegan) | May 23, 2008 11:14 AM
#23, one does have to wonder whether whoever added THAT little clause had some personal experience on the receiving end of that scenario. . . . I mean, why else would you even think to include it?
Posted by: TheOtherOne | May 23, 2008 11:14 AM
Ah yes, jsn. The whole you can't understand the bible unless you believe the bible, in which case you don't need to understand the bible cuz you already believe it. Excellent logic.
Posted by: Dennis N | May 23, 2008 11:16 AM
This reminds me of a comic book that I used to have (some bugger nicked it) called 'Outrageous Tales from the Old Testament': http://www.amazon.com/Outrageous-Tales-Testament-Tony-Bennett/dp/0861660544
As well as this lovely Elisha story, there was the the one where Lot throws his virgin daughter to the crowd to be raped, the genocide of the midianites and other instructive moral tales, lovingly rendered by the cream of comic authors and artists.
Posted by: BaldySlaphead | May 23, 2008 11:20 AM
DennisN@32: we can't understand the bible because it's a garbled collection of confused fairy stories and half-assed homilies about one of two things: OT - do what I say or I'll smite ya!; NT: do what I say or you'll burn in the bad fire.
essentially -- it's all about bending over and letting your god give it to you in the ass (espescially after you've told him you prefer head)
Posted by: tony (not a vegan) | May 23, 2008 11:22 AM
Two she-bears here, or seventy two virgins in Heaven? Ok, I take the she-bears: a bird in the hand is worth two in the bush.
Posted by: Daniel R | May 23, 2008 11:23 AM
Hey, jsn, are you 'Jason' who attempts to defend this retarded horsecack over on the Dwindling in Unbelief blog?
http://dwindlinginunbelief.blogspot.com/2007/10/go-up-thou-bald-head.html
Posted by: BaldySlaphead | May 23, 2008 11:24 AM
The other side of the story, naturally, was that the bears were pregnant and had one of those cravings and prayed to God to help them satisfy it. So God did.
As far as the fig is concerned, everyone seems to miss that it was not even fig season. No figs in fig season. The Creator of the fig should have known this... you'd think...
Posted by: speedwell | May 23, 2008 11:27 AM
Would you then care to explain what the lesson of the "story" is, and perhaps even more importantly, whether you believe it actually occurred?
Posted by: Tulse | May 23, 2008 11:42 AM
We need to suggest to Jack Chick that he write a tract to cover this one.
I don't have the baldness issue. Pretty much the opposite, really. Worse, my hair doesn't get long, it gets big. I met my wife at a place a couple weeks ago, and when she asked how she'd see me, I just told her to look for the giant Q-tip about halfway down the aisle.
Posted by: MikeM | May 23, 2008 11:52 AM
Once, long ago, I was asked by my pastor for my favorite Biblical character.
I was in a snarky mood. I instantly responded, "Balaam's ass."
Dead silence for about five seconds, then I was asked the question, "Why?"
Oh, he HAD to ask. "Because he never spoke until he had something worthwhile to say," I replied, looking straight at him. He wisely moved on to another young adult.
No she-bears, though.
Oh, yeah - here's a joke:
Q. Did you know that human skin is the toughest material known?
A. It's true - it says so in the Bible; Balaam tied his ass to a tree and walked ten miles.
Posted by: The Wanderer | May 23, 2008 12:03 PM
Okay, not all bald men in comic books are evil........
...but they are always people to be reckoned with!
Posted by: Tony Popple | May 23, 2008 12:08 PM
I love it when Christians accuse, well, anybody of being narrow minded. They are, by default, closed off to all other gods, many of which are worshiped by hundreds of millions and their holy texts scrutinised by theologians centuries before Jesus was a gleam in the eye of whoever actually fathered him. Sorry, but some punk having a godgasm over a few words in a book they were raised not to question in any meaningful way doesn't count for sweet fuck-all in terms of what it means to actually understand something.
Open minded? Empty headed, you mean.
Oh, and jsn? Get your own handle. We already have a jsn, and you're a fucking moron and an asshole. I hope a Christian from another denomination slashes your tires.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | May 23, 2008 12:25 PM
As I've mentioned before, I know Steve Notley, and he's at least twice the biblical value of pi times a smart and 'open-minded' as a clown like jsn.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | May 23, 2008 12:29 PM
No need to ask, that's obvious: don't mess with bald guys.
It's a good lesson to know.
Posted by: Pablo | May 23, 2008 1:25 PM
If you look at this passage in context with the rest of scripture, these children were actually youn men between the ages of 12 and 30. In fact the same hebrew word is used elsewhere to describe men in the military. When they said "go on up" they were mocking him and telling him to ascend to heaven like elijah. Elisha was being taunted by over 40 young men and most likely they could have became violent so god sent the bears to represent the coming judgement if the rest of the people of the city did not repent and respect his prophets.
Posted by: Mike | May 23, 2008 1:29 PM
I believe that's just fancy apologetics and word twisting. They were actually young kids. Either way, couldn't god have just pushed them away? Told them to go home? Nooooo, had to murder them with bears. Then you post-hoc rationalize it because god HAS to be good.
Posted by: Dennis N | May 23, 2008 1:33 PM
My favorite Babble quote:
Deuteronomy 23:12-14 (King James Version)
12)Thou shalt have a place also without the camp, whither thou shalt go forth abroad:
13)And thou shalt have a paddle upon thy weapon; and it shall be, when thou wilt ease thyself abroad, thou shalt dig therewith, and shalt turn back and cover that which cometh from thee:
14)For the LORD thy God walketh in the midst of thy camp, to deliver thee, and to give up thine enemies before thee; therefore shall thy camp be holy: that he see no unclean thing in thee, and turn away from thee.
Posted by: LightningRose | May 23, 2008 1:44 PM
God's standard is higher than ours. If he sent an angel to kill every infant in the world right now, or to make everyone die from a plague, or any other horrible thing he would be justified in doing so because he is god, regardless of his reason. Anything god does is good even if we don't understand it. However we are lucky enough to be living under the new covenent which is an age of grace. When he comes back, he will be just as wrathful as in the old testament.
Posted by: Mike | May 23, 2008 1:48 PM
Strong's:
H5288
נער
na‛ar
nah'-ar
From H5287; (concretely) a boy (as active), from the age of infancy to adolescence; by implication a servant; also (by interchange of sex), a girl (of similar latitude in age): - babe, boy, child, damsel [from the margin], lad, servant, young (man).
Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions:
H5288
נער
na‛ar
BDB Definition:
1) a boy, lad, servant, youth, retainer
1a) boy, lad, youth
1b) servant, retainer
Part of Speech: noun masculine
New American Standard(r) Updated Edition Exhaustive Concordance of the Bible:
H5288
נער
naar (654d); of unc. der.; a boy, lad, youth, retainer: - attendants (1), boy (19), boy's (1), boys (1), child (12), children (4), lad (36), lad's (2), lads (3), servant (34), servant's (1), servants (23), young (12), young man (33), young men (38), young people (1), youth (14), youths (2).
Posted by: mikespeir | May 23, 2008 1:50 PM
God Hates Figs!
http://godhatesfigs.com/
And Shrimp!
http://godhatesshrimp.com/
Posted by: LightningRose | May 23, 2008 1:50 PM
I fail to see how killing babies is a "higher standard".
Posted by: Dennis N | May 23, 2008 1:50 PM
As a bald guy, I approve of this story. Damn kids.
Posted by: ndt | May 23, 2008 1:53 PM
Thanks for playing, Mike. Some questions based on this one little snippet:
Does the age matter? I'd say, it's a little less horrible if they were young men. But's it's still reprehensible.
The crime is still 'taunting', and the curse came from Elisha. How do you square that with his other traits as 'a messenger of kindness'?
Your charge that they would become 'more violent' is extra-Biblical, unfounded and desperate. But if it is so, Elisha still invoked the curse, and he wouldn't have known their intentions. Does a good God kill someone for what they might do? Isn't judgement based on actions more than intentions? What happened to free will?
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | May 23, 2008 1:59 PM
There. I made Mike's sermon way less eye-clawingly and inanely stupid, without changing the potential truth-value whatsoever.
Please Mike, tell us more, and don't spare the conviction. It must be right since you're so earnest. (By the way, could you just as earnestly assert that cancer doesn't exist? You'd really be saving a lot of people a lot of grief.)
Posted by: Brownian, OM | May 23, 2008 1:59 PM
Mike,
Unfortunately, it's not just "na'ar", it's "quatan na'ar", where "quatan" is a diminutive qualifier, like "little".
Now, which makes more sense, "little boy" or "little young men"?
Also, you can drop this nonsense about God having a higher standard. If God's behaviour is beyond the scope of human moral judgement, then there is absolutely no reason to call him "good".
Posted by: DaveL | May 23, 2008 2:01 PM
Mike blathered,
But God's whole purpose in Jesus was that he could experience human suffering and not be such a genocidal prick.
You don't seem to have even a foundational understanding of Christian theology. Sad.
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | May 23, 2008 2:02 PM
@ #56:
Actually, the main purpose was to sacrifice himself to himself in order to change a rule he made up (i.e. torturing every human for all eternity because of something their ancestors did before they knew right from wrong).
Posted by: DaveL | May 23, 2008 2:06 PM
I was actually an atheist for 28 years until I started to study the evidence of evoultion vs the evidence of intelligent design and creationism, as well as the bible. The bible has more historical and archeological proof than any other book that exists. Sure, I could be wrong, and there could be naturalistic explainations for life, but I have discovered enough evidence that I would not want to take a chance on being wrong, so I choose to believe in god. If I'm wrong, so what? I will one day cease to exist, but if I'm right I will live forever. If an athiest is wrong then eternal punishment is the price to pay. Evne when I was an atheist I never judged others for their beliefs. If someone wants to believe in something I find ridiculous it really doesn't bother me...I just don't understand why it bothers so many atheists.
Posted by: Mike | May 23, 2008 2:18 PM
Thanks, DaveL. That is most definitely a salient point.
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | May 23, 2008 2:20 PM
I definitely agree on that! The Bible has more proof than 'evoultion'. I've never even heard of 'evoultion'!
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | May 23, 2008 2:23 PM
You were an atheist for 28 years and never once saw Pascal's Wager exposed as the BS it is?
What if you are wrong, but wrong in the god you picked. What if Allah is real? You'll be burning alongside all of us.
Posted by: Dennis N | May 23, 2008 2:26 PM
Ryan, if you have actually studied christian theology from a believer's perspective, you would realize that your post is nonsense. God's coming to earth had nothing to do with wanting to experience suffering.
Posted by: Mike | May 23, 2008 2:28 PM
Mike's using Pascal's Wager! Hahahahahahahahaa... that's cute.
But Mike, what if it's really another god? Then every time you go to church you're just making Vishnu madder and madder.
Posted by: Carlie | May 23, 2008 2:29 PM
I was actually an atheist for 28 years until I started to study the evidence of evoultion vs the evidence of intelligent design and creationism, as well as the bible. - Mike
I don't believe you. The misspellings, the hackneyed arguments, and especially the "I was actually an atheist..." spiel mark you out to just about everyone here as a poorly-educated, probably not very bright Fundie Death-Cultist, coming here to Lie for Jesus.
The bible has more historical and archeological proof than any other book that exists.
No it does not. It is a mass of self-contradiction, absurdity, and appalling immorality on the part of the central character.
I have discovered enough evidence that I would not want to take a chance on being wrong, so I choose to believe in god. If I'm wrong, so what? I will one day cease to exist, but if I'm right I will live forever.
What if there is a god, but it hates anyone taking any notice of it whatever, punishes anyone who prays with eternal torment, and rewards atheists with eternal bliss? That kind of god is no less (and no more) likely than your sky-daddy.
If an athiest is wrong then eternal punishment is the price to pay.
And you worship a being that you believe tortures people forever for having the wrong opinions? Are you evil, or just sick?
Posted by: Nick Gotts | May 23, 2008 2:30 PM
I love it! This has always been my favorite story in the bible. Just edging out the harlot with the staff.
Posted by: Timothy | May 23, 2008 2:31 PM
Mike,
Read up on Luther's theology of the cross. Not that you will, anyway.
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | May 23, 2008 2:35 PM
My favorite story is when the stone the guy for picking up sticks on the sabbath, and it's epilogue where Jesus tells people not to stone a whore (even though the laws he gave out earlier as god told them to; talk about confusing).
My second favorite part is when the god over the universe is foiled (drats!) by iron chariots.
Posted by: Dennis N | May 23, 2008 2:36 PM
Fixed that for you!
Not if you're worshiping the wrong god. Or getting something dreadfully wrong in the way you worship the "correct" god.
Say, do you drive on Saturday?
[I can't shake the notion that Mike is another Poe or Landover Baptist. Something a little too pat with the misspellings and regurgitated trite arguments. Oh, well.]
Posted by: Owlmirror | May 23, 2008 2:36 PM
Ryan,thank you for avoiding the topic and becoming a spelling critic instead, that just goes to show how arrogant you really are. Dennis, I could be wrong, but comparing every religion, i decided that christianity has the most evidence. I made an educated guess.
Posted by: Mike | May 23, 2008 2:38 PM
If an atheist is wrong then eternal punishment is the price to pay.
How do you know this? This is the fallacy of the excluded middle. Perhaps if god does exist he will judge us on our actions and not our beliefs. In that case I think there will be far more atheists in heaven than theists who believe their actions are all forgiven simply by wishing (aka praying) it so.
Posted by: SteveM | May 23, 2008 2:38 PM
If an athiest is wrong then eternal punishment is the price to pay.
Yeah, jumping off from Nick's point above, the god you're discussing gives people the ability to question its existence, and then punishes them for eternity for exercising that ability. What a childish thug.
Posted by: Josh | May 23, 2008 2:39 PM
The bible has more historical and archeological proof than any other book that exists.
*restrains uproarious laughter*
Have you ever investigated this claim? Do you have any basis for believing this? Or are you just parroting what some "expert" apologist said?
It's not true. It's a howlingly inane thing to say, to boot, that utterly exposes your ignorance of history, archaeology, AND the bible.
You're either lying, or you have been lied to. If it's the former, why do you feel the need to lie in defense of your faith? If it's the latter, I'd be pissed off if I were you.
Posted by: CJO | May 23, 2008 2:41 PM
Oh, you're one of those. I don't know what the hell you think you studied, but it sure as hell wasn't the evidence for evolution.
Pascal's wager has been mentioned above. Be sure to mention your impeccable logic to Shiva when you meet him in the afterlife.
Like most here, I don't give a flying fuck what you think you believe, as long as you keep your bullshit out the schools, out of politics, and lay the fuck off homosexuals.
Good to know you're so non-judgemental. Now, what was that town of sinners that God's she-bears were a warning to? If God told you to set a bomb in the middle of downtown New York you surely would, wouldn't you? After all, he is wrathful. If it's all the same to you Mike, I'll keep my distance from your non-judgment. I'd hate to be standing next to you when God gives you his orders to terminate the heathens.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | May 23, 2008 2:42 PM
You really feel Christianity has more evidence than Deism? Or Islam? We have no evidence beyond the bible, which is ripe with contradictions and wrong statements. There's no evidence for a mass exodus of Jews from Egypt, or a global flood, and those are the big ones you would expect to leave something.
Posted by: Dennis N | May 23, 2008 2:43 PM
Says the Phillistine. Just because your 'education' is lacking doesn't mean it's my fault for pointing it out.
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | May 23, 2008 2:43 PM
but comparing every religion, i decided that christianity has the most evidence.
HOLY SHIT. That must have taken you a while. Where the hell did you get your hands on the documentation for them all? Especially like the ones practiced by tribes in the Amazon and such. You must have the most comprehensive comparative religion library on earth. Dude, you seriously have got to write a book. Or get someone to option a documentary. Shit.
Posted by: Josh | May 23, 2008 2:43 PM
Ah, Pascal's wager...
1) As others have pointed out, there's a third option: what if a powerful being/god exists, but not the one you conceive of? What if that god will punish you for your beliefs? Perhaps it's a god who despises morons who put fear of eternal punishment above the search for genuine knowledge. No more unlikely than your version of god.
2) If god doesn't exist, the consequence is that you've wasted your short life devoting it to a lie.
3) Even if the powerful being you profess to believe in exists, he certainly doesn't deserve worship. Anyone who would eternally punish good people for the "sin" of unbelief (a punishment with no corrective power whatsoever) is not worthy of respect, much less worship.
Posted by: Etha Williams | May 23, 2008 2:44 PM
First of all I have read Luther's theology and I think he is flawed in that area. And also calling my arguements regurgitated is like the pot calling the kettle black. Also if I were ever presented with evidence that proved god did not exist, I would become an atheist again, because I'm not so arrogant to believe that I have all the answers.
Posted by: Mike | May 23, 2008 2:46 PM
See how insane that is if you just change the wording a little?
Posted by: Owlmirror | May 23, 2008 2:46 PM
Ever notice how these wise and humble and non-judgemental Christians always seem to go after the low-hanging fruit when they're argued against in this forum? "That guy is arrogant for picking on my sloppy writing, point for me!"
Posted by: Rey Fox | May 23, 2008 2:46 PM
So what makes you qualified to speak for god? Voices in your head, found a stone tablet lying around, sacrificed one of your kids on an alter, talking with that burning bush in your back yard again?
Or did you just forget to take your medication?
If god is so arbitrary and murderous, why worship him? One could fear such a being like one would fear a rattlesnake or a fundie with a bible and a gun, but worship, why would anyone bother?
PS: On a few threads, I've pointed out that many fundies and creos that are motivated enough to post are either stupid or crazy or both. No one agreed with me but so what. Wackos like Mike show up like sunrises and prove the point anyway.
Posted by: raven | May 23, 2008 2:47 PM
That settles it. Mike's a liar, and understands nothing of evidence.
Fail.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | May 23, 2008 2:50 PM
Etha Williams (#77):
Indeed. The only sane response to such a god would be that seen in His Dark Materials or, better yet, the Preacher comics, in which the first human to get the opportunity decides to bring the bastard to justice, Texas style.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | May 23, 2008 2:51 PM
Someone who says that a god who does evil is justified regardless of the reason is not sane enough to understand that the evidence for the existence of god, does not itself exist.
Posted by: Owlmirror | May 23, 2008 2:53 PM
Amen.
If I was god I would have Smitten the hell out of those bastards.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 23, 2008 3:01 PM
Etha wrote:3) Even if the powerful being you profess to believe in exists, he certainly doesn't deserve worship. Anyone who would eternally punish good people for the "sin" of unbelief (a punishment with no corrective power whatsoever) is not worthy of respect, much less worship.
But don't you see? It matters not whether he deserves worship, just about what he will do if you don't. You worship not because he deserves it but because it will get you into heaven. It's all about playing the odds. What a wonderful basis for faith.
Mike wrote: Evne when I was an atheist I never judged others for their beliefs.
Why not, after all, that's what your god does, judges us on our beliefs and not our actions.
Mike also wrote: If someone wants to believe in something I find ridiculous it really doesn't bother me...I just don't understand why it bothers so many atheists.
Maybe because so many of your fellow believers are bothered by what we (don't) believe.
Posted by: SteveM | May 23, 2008 3:03 PM
Mike (#78) whined,
No you wouldn't. You would just be a non-theist. An atheist only requires doubt, not proof of non-existance.
Since you didn't know that, I'm just going to go ahead and say that for 28 years, you were an ignorant atheist, now you're an ignorant Christian.
So do I. But then again, if you also don't understand the basics of "impassibility", then you don't undertand Christianity. See above.
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | May 23, 2008 3:03 PM
Oh this should be good.
What made you decide that Christianity has more evidence than Islam?
Posted by: Rev. bigDumbChimp | May 23, 2008 3:04 PM
"ויעל משם בית אל והוא עלה בדרך ינערים קטנים יצאו מן העיר ויטקלסו-בו ויאמרו לו עלה קרח עלה קרח "
"And he (Elisha) went from there to Beit-El and he was traveling (lit. going up) on the road and small youths from the city followed him and said 'go up bald one, go up bald one'"
ויפן אחריו ויראם ליקללם בשם יהוה ותצאנה שתים דיבום מין היער ותבקענה מהם ארבעים ושני ילדים"
"
"And they chased after him and he saw them and cursed them in the name of god and two bears (it doesn't specify sex) came out of the forest and slew forty two CHILDREN"
Note that it does not say נער which would mean youth, a word whose meaning has been debated here, but rather it clearly says ילדים which to anyone out there who speaks hebrew clearly means young children. There you go, I knew all those hours of "Prophets" class would be worth something :).
Posted by: Richbank | May 23, 2008 3:05 PM
Actually, I think a reasonable (OK, a less insane) punishment would have been to make all of the kids bald. Who're you calling "baldy", baldies?
Zing!
Posted by: Owlmirror | May 23, 2008 3:09 PM
raven (#81) said,