…and this is a 
Pinellas County, Florida expels science
Category: Creationism
Posted on: May 9, 2008 8:43 AM, by PZ Myers
This is the Friends of Brooker Creek Preserve website — it looks exactly like the kind of organization I would support, a community effort to protect a local wildlife area. They lobby, they educate, they offer opportunities to hike and experience nature.
One problem: it's in Florida. That seems to mean the organization is infected with stupidity and cowardice.
As part of their educational mission, they were going to have a speaker come in next last Febrary, Dr Lorena Madrigal of the University of South Florida. She studies genetics and human evolution, and was going to speak on 12 February, Darwin Day. To the Pinellas County bureaucrats, this is a problem.
"Biology without evolution is not biology," she suggested, which obviously explains, at least in the mind of William Davis, the Pinellas County director of environmental services, why the professor's speech would be problematic.
"Her topic was about evolution," Davis said. Well, yeaaaaaah! "I flinched on that."
"I canceled her out after discussing it with my supervisors," he said. "We are not the platform for debate on creationism versus evolution."
Right. Talking about evolution might annoy the creationists, so the county's response is to shut down and silence efforts to educate and inform by an environmental institution which relies on evolutionary biology to perform its mission. This is a perfect example of how creationists work to keep people ignorant, and create an environment free of legitimate information about a subject that contradicts their absurd literalist beliefs.
Comments
Sigh...
Pinellas county. Home sweet home.
Posted by: Jared Lessl | May 9, 2008 8:47 AM
Villains come in all shapes and sizes. Amongst the worst are those poltroons who permit villainy out of fear, inertia or inaction, for they are the enablers.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | May 9, 2008 8:48 AM
I know how you feel, Jared.
Maybe a Chattaburger would cheer you up? (If you're on the south side.)
Posted by: MikeG | May 9, 2008 8:51 AM
Ooh! Expelled!!
Posted by: Gadfly22 | May 9, 2008 9:00 AM
PZ -- I think you have your timeframe out of whack. Madrigal isn't scheduled for next Feb., according to the article. Rather, she was scheduled for this past Feb. The article states:
"However, a week before she was to speak, Madrigal was given the bum's rush by Pinellas County officials, who canceled her appearance."
We (Florida Citizens for Science) were told that some folks only recently found out about this and worked hard to get some public exposure, eventually landing this article. Notice that the event was in Feb. and it is now May. It had been swept under the rug for a few months. Imagine that!
Posted by: Brandon | May 9, 2008 9:12 AM
How much of Florida's problem is demographic, specifically, generational? Do they have a higher concentration of people who are from those older generations which are more socially conservative? (I'm sure there are other reasons besides age, but for now I'm interested in this aspect.)
In the next few decades, if Boomers and Gen X and the Millennials move to Florida to retire, will these later generations (who are overall less socially conservative and better educated than the Silent and GI generations) even out the (apparent) reactionary, anti-intellectual tendency among seniors in that state? They need more James Randi's; maybe they'll get them.
Posted by: Trefayne | May 9, 2008 9:17 AM
I just sent this email to them:
To the board of directors of Friends of Brooker Creek Preserve:
I recently read of your decision to revoke the invitation of Dr Lorena Madrigal to speak at your event on the subject of biology. The decision to disinvite her because of a perceived conflict between evolution and creationism is, at best, disappointing. The FACT of the matter is, evolution is a scientific fact, and Dr. Madrigal was invited to speak about science. The decision of Mr. William Davis was cowardly and gives more ammunition to creationists to continue their attacks on science, furthering America's deterioration in the world community. I sincerely hope you forward my letter to Mr. Davis, because he should at the very least apologize to Dr. Madrigal, and at best resign from his position in favor of someone who doesn't need to bow to perceived controversy.
Anyone else? info@friendsofbrookercreekpreserve.org
Posted by: Paul Lundgren | May 9, 2008 9:40 AM
And yet, of course, it's the fundies who are persecuted and silenced. The fact that they have a chokehold on the public discourse notwithstanding...
Posted by: Dana Hunter | May 9, 2008 9:42 AM
Dopey bastards.
And this is what it's come to: After working at it for years, the OTHER dopey bastards, the creationist crowd, have created in this man's mind the illusion that there's a dangerous controversy.
Either that or Davis is himself an anti-science fundie, and wants to do everything he can to see that evolution isn't taught in any domain over which he has control.
(Either way, he comes across as a bit of a coward.)
Here we are watching the news every night, thinking the fundamentalist Islamics are a grave danger to the world, and we fail to notice how much danger we face right here at home from the fundamentalist Christians.
Posted by: Hank Fox | May 9, 2008 9:44 AM
So it's just fear that the cre_ti_nists might be annoyed? This is a scandal of incredible proportions.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | May 9, 2008 9:44 AM
#6: I could only hope. Really though it seems like year after year you guys send us the anti-intellectuals of your states to keep the quota up. We also get a constant influx of foreign hispanic persons, who are generally catholic and generally 'blue collar,' at least in my area (Not including work, obviously NASA is loaded with brilliant minds of all ethnicities). Most seem to be apathetic to the debate at best.
Mostly though it's just an all around "conservative" state, and by that I mean "right-wing-whack-a-mole," since I believe in conserving the constitution yet don't get along with that group at all. It's the children and grandchildren of wingnuts, and while I have no doubt the zeitgeist will shift with the younger generation, it isn't happening very quickly. And the status quo is doing its best to indoctrinate the next gen before they have their own opinion on the matter.
Posted by: Spiv | May 9, 2008 9:45 AM
Whilst this decision is disappointing I don't think you can blame the organisers. They are, if I understand correctly, all about preserving local wildlife and wildlife sites. Pissing off a large, ignorant, chunk of the local demographic who might otherwse support their goals just isn't their fight and they shouldn't have to be the ones to suffer loss to fight it.
Sad as it seems this was, due to the current anti-evo climate, probably a good call on their part looking at their aims.
Posted by: tai haku | May 9, 2008 9:49 AM
This is both despicable and also just a bit funny. That the Friends of Brooker Creek Preserve would be so concerned about the possibility for discussion is ludicrous. But still more absurd is the probably reasonable conclusion Hut allowing someone to speak on evolution might cost them the monetary arid political support they need to preserve Brooker Creek.
Posted by: Amafortas | May 9, 2008 9:51 AM
Science is controversial, so we can't discuss real science in our schools. Sigh. We'd be the laughing stock of the world if they weren't so frightened of us.
Posted by: C Barr | May 9, 2008 9:52 AM
Sorry to crash this thread but has anyone here read Stein's latest nonsense. Read his interview at Christianity Today
http://www.christianitytoday.com/movies/interviews/benstein.html
The short version - he's a fucking lunatic.
Posted by: Mikey | May 9, 2008 9:53 AM
I lived in Florida for a year. A huge swath of the state is as backward as any redneck, good-old-boy Mississippi/Alabama/Georgia county you could imagine. They're not going to die out any time soon. They're not going to see the light anytime soon. They are as ignorant and back-woods as it gets.
Over-time, much of the problem will go away. Just like it has in many other states. But it's a process of gradual illumination and Florida was a deep, dark cave.
Now, the cities, are much better. I'll grant you that. But the rural areas...
Posted by: Moses | May 9, 2008 9:54 AM
Amongst the worst are those poltroons who permit villainy out of fear, inertia or inaction, for they are the enablers.
Another brave Internet warrior. Words are easy. And, seriously, villainy? Idiocy, perhaps, but villainy? What are you, twelve years old? Just got back from a Comic-Con?
Posted by: tone 12 | May 9, 2008 9:57 AM
#15 Holy f*cking sh*t:
"Scientists were the people in Germany telling Hitler that it was a good idea to kill all the Jews. Scientists were telling Stalin it was a good idea to wipe out the middle-class peasants. Scientists were telling Mao Tse-Tung it was fine to kill 50 million people in order to further the revolution."
-Ben Stein
Posted by: Theodore | May 9, 2008 9:57 AM
Hey, on a slightly unrelated note, if you want to help me engage in a fun debate with an ID creationist, go here:
http://thenma.org/blogs/index.php/meyer/2008/05/06/ben_stein_s_dangerous_idea
Posted by: Ric | May 9, 2008 9:58 AM
I'm a bit confused -- it sounded like the Friends of Brooker Creek was an independent group, but then a government official cancels one of their speakers? How does that work?
Posted by: Nemo | May 9, 2008 10:02 AM
Time to register a religion that actually does follow that thing called "Darwinism", then you can scream "religious bigotry" when members are prevented from speaking about their views.
Posted by: AndyD | May 9, 2008 10:03 AM
Moses, it's a shame we don't have time. I just read "Under a Green Sky" and it seems we'll be S.O.L. a lot sooner than the tards will die out.
Posted by: Lycosid | May 9, 2008 10:04 AM
#21: the creos would just swing a double standard club without batting an eye. One of the few things that can happen faster than the speed of thought is the lack of thought altogether.
Posted by: Spiv | May 9, 2008 10:08 AM
Stein has typecast himself for all time. As a extremist, Xian cultist lunatic.
Oddly enough, many scientists are Jewish. They are overrepresented among Nobel prize winners. A lot of science is done in Israel as a matter of economic development and sheer survival.
The ADL has already tossed their oar in the water and weren't impressed.
Posted by: raven | May 9, 2008 10:13 AM
This putz is county director of environmental services?
In most places that requires, if not much knowledge of science, at least a healthy respect for it. I'm guessing this jackass has a job because somebody with deep pockets wants to do something to the air, water and/or dirt in Pinellas County that would gag a maggot.
Posted by: Molly, NYC | May 9, 2008 10:14 AM
#15 "Did you do a lot of reading to prep for the role?
Stein: Some. I read one book cover to cover . . ." Wow, he went to a lot of trouble. I respect him now.
Posted by: merkin j. pus-tart | May 9, 2008 10:17 AM
You missed out political correctness. There are a large number of contributers round here who give Islam an easy ride for that reason (unless it's fear from your list, for which I'd have more sympathy).
Peter
Posted by: peter | May 9, 2008 10:25 AM
"Scientists were the people in Germany telling Hitler that it was a good idea to kill all the Jews. Scientists were telling Stalin it was a good idea to wipe out the middle-class peasants. Scientists were telling Mao Tse-Tung it was fine to kill 50 million people in order to further the revolution."
I suppose he doesn't also go on to mention the fact that when you're a scientist (or anybody else) who winds up working for a homicidal maniac, you tell them anything at all they want to hear, because the alternative is usually a bullet to the back of the head in the middle of the night...
And note to Ben Stein: "Middle-class peasant" is an oxymoron. You claim to be a professional writer and you are that sloppy? (Are there any right-wingers at all left who can actually write?!)
Posted by: Interrobang | May 9, 2008 10:26 AM
Thanks Mikey. I loved this little bit:
What more can anyone say? It's like having one's brains bashed in by a morphine coated brick.
Posted by: Dan | May 9, 2008 10:26 AM
You missed out political correctness.
"Political correctness"--that's the expression people use when they want to bash liberals for the sake of liberal bashing and have neither facts nor logic to support themselves.
Posted by: Molly, NYC | May 9, 2008 10:41 AM
You mean, uh, the biologist was going to speak in favor of biology, which is virtually non-existent without its primary theory, evolution?
Good thing they stopped that. You never know what might happen if science were to inform conservation.
Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | May 9, 2008 10:47 AM
You mean, uh, the biologist was going to speak in favor of biology, which is virtually non-existent without its primary theory, evolution?
Good thing they stopped that. You never know what might happen if science were to inform conservation.
Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | May 9, 2008 10:47 AM
Molly #30
there's of course only one fact that can support the bashing: that the liberals are not even-handed in the application of their principles.
You think you are?
Peter
Posted by: peter | May 9, 2008 10:48 AM
"I read one book cover to cover, From Darwin to Hitler, and that was a very interesting book--one of these rare books I wish had been even longer."
I found the latter part of the quote to be quite telling. Sounds to me like Stein doesn't really care much for reading. I'd really like to see what he had written on his wrist during Win Ben Stein's Money. He had to be cheating.
Posted by: Bunk | May 9, 2008 10:49 AM
Molly #30
there's of course only one fact that can support the bashing: that the liberals are not even-handed in the application of their principles.
You think you are?
Peter
Posted by: peter | May 9, 2008 10:51 AM
Re #27 You missed out political correctness. - Peter
Possibly because the term is just an all-purpose rightist sneer, often deployed by bigots who regard objections to their bigotry as persecution.
There are a large number of contributers round here who give Islam an easy ride for that reason
You need to learn to distinguish between giving a belief system an easy ride, and defending its adherents from bigots. Islam is a false, absurd, and in many ways highly unpleasant and dangerous belief system, even worse in some ways than the other Abrahamic religions; but the majority of Muslims, like the majority of the followers of those other religions, behave much better than the beliefs they profess to hold would lead one to expect.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | May 9, 2008 10:51 AM
Re #27 You missed out political correctness. - Peter
Possibly because the term is just an all-purpose rightist sneer, often deployed by bigots who regard objections to their bigotry as persecution.
There are a large number of contributers round here who give Islam an easy ride for that reason
You need to learn to distinguish between giving a belief system an easy ride, and defending its adherents from bigots. Islam is a false, absurd, and in many ways highly unpleasant and dangerous belief system, even worse in some ways than the other Abrahamic religions; but the majority of Muslims, like the majority of the followers of those other religions, behave much better than the beliefs they profess to hold would lead one to expect.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | May 9, 2008 10:52 AM
Peter@27:
Political correctness in Pinellas County apparently means the suppression of science.
Posted by: MikeK | May 9, 2008 10:59 AM
That's why I said "Islam" and not "Muslims".
But one can't help noticing that the fine distinction is not drawn round here in the case of Christianity/Christians.
Peter
Posted by: peter | May 9, 2008 10:59 AM
In states where they don't have a clear majority, fundies/creationists/ID'ers claim to want to "teach the controversy". Of course, in areas like the deep South, where they run the show, it's another story altogether.
This is why I see fundamentalism as a form of addiction. The symptoms are precisely the same, the most prominent one being denial.
Posted by: Jeff Eyges | May 9, 2008 11:02 AM
Hey, give Pinellas County a break: they're already menaced by the dark hordes of mighty wizards amassing directly to the north in Pasco County, as well as the anonymous minions of Lord Xenu targeting Clearwater on their southern flank.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | May 9, 2008 11:06 AM
OK Peter, let's see your evidence for there being "a large number of contributors round here who give Islam an easy ride". Time to put up or shut up. Oh, and make sure you have sufficient evidence that there indeed are "a large number". Given the number of contributors here, that must mean double figures at the very least.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | May 9, 2008 11:06 AM
Pretty sure Prof. Madrigal was not going to mention creationism in her EVOLUTION lecture...so what f-ing debate is Davis talking about?
CL
http://www.coulterlewkowitz.com/
Posted by: CL | May 9, 2008 11:08 AM
"I read one book cover to cover, From Darwin to Hitler, and that was a very interesting book--one of these rare books I wish had been even longer."
I found the latter part of the quote to be quite telling. Sounds to me like Stein doesn't really care much for reading. I'd really like to see what he had written on his wrist during Win Ben Stein's Money. He had to be cheating.
Posted by: Bunk | May 9, 2008 11:10 AM
Not really, although it sounds a bit clumsy in English.
Posted by: windy | May 9, 2008 11:13 AM
You know what Ben Stein needs, next he starts going on about how evil scientists are?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQKxAqpjroo
Posted by: Will E. | May 9, 2008 11:18 AM
You know what Ben Stein needs, next he starts going on about how evil scientists are?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mQKxAqpjroo
Posted by: Will E. | May 9, 2008 11:20 AM
There's plenty of Islam-bashing here when something crops up that merits bashing (you know, like those "honor-killing" stories, those "jail the English teacher for allowing her kids to name a teddy 'Mohammed'" stories, those "I married an 8 year old" stories), but for the simple reason that here in the USA there are many stories about certain Christians - sometimes very high-profile Christains, like Presidents and Presidential candidates - trying to do things such as:
they tend to take up more space here on the blog. There aren't many creationist Muslims trying to push "academic freedom" bills through state legislatures or to get elected to local school boards.
The allegedly delusional aspects of Christianity also get more space here than do the equivalent aspects of Islam, for a similar reason: fundamentalist Christianity is up in the face of western atheists to a far greater degree.
That's how it appear to me, anyway, and I hope that clarifies things a little, or at least provides some food for thought. Perhaps Peter's talking about something completely different, though, such as the universal support al-Qaeda receives from anyone who didn't vote for George Bush.
Posted by: Kseniya | May 9, 2008 11:21 AM
As others have noted, I find the irony that they want to "teach the controversy" but only if said controversy allows adding ID, not if it allows discussion of actual evolution.
Posted by: Donut | May 9, 2008 11:21 AM
This was my response as well. What does he mean about a "debate on evolution vs creationism"?
This is no debate, it is a lecture on ecology by a biologist.
Posted by: Pablo | May 9, 2008 11:24 AM
We comment on the society we're immersed in; we would do the same to Islam if we lived in a Muslim country. I don't think it's hard to grasp. Iran does not spend much time discussing Britney Spears, but here in America we do.
Posted by: Dennis N | May 9, 2008 11:24 AM
Dennis = shorter Me
:-D
Posted by: Kseniya | May 9, 2008 11:27 AM
Somewhat OT, but here goes:
KPFT Pacifica Radio in Houston presents:
Part 1 in the exploration of the nexus between elite Ivy League inbred upper-classes, and the toothless pinkBoy knee-jockey trailer-trash godsucking cousin-fucking dinosaur-riding creationist underclasses.
Movie Review: Ben Stein's EXPELLED: No Intelligence Required
or download from:
innerSide Radio
Podcast
Pat Condell, PZ Myers, Richard Dawkins, Non Prophets Radio, Thunderfoot, Ben Stein, Pat Robertson, and Bill Deny: the Creation Science Guy
30 minutes
-s
Posted by: scooter | May 9, 2008 11:32 AM
Haha, yeah I've just been worn out from dealing with the same arguments over and over, and I can see them coming a mile away. I don't have your patience to explain a lot.
Posted by: Dennis N | May 9, 2008 11:34 AM
Nick Gotts #42
You know as well as I do that the easy ride is mostly by default: Islam just doesn't come in for anything like the same flak as Christianity: it's almost never mentioned.
I know people are going to say that's because it's not the predominant religion, but in Europe with the decline of the established churches, it's slowly becoming, if not the only, at least a big show in town. I don't mind admitting, that fills me with foreboding: Is there any predominantly Muslim country where non-Muslims don't suffer prejudice compared to Muslims?
Liberals are refusing to face up to this, and are in the words above are "enablers". If cowering behind the word "bigotry" is not political correctness, the other words which occur to me are far worse.
Peter
Posted by: peter | May 9, 2008 11:40 AM
You know as well as I do that the easy ride is mostly by default: Islam just doesn't come in for anything like the same flak as Christianity: it's almost never mentioned.
Peter, you made a very specific allegation, which you have failed to support, because you can't. You are a liar as well as a bigot. And I am not "cowering" behind anything. I use my full name here, coupled with describing Islam as "a false, absurd, and in many ways highly unpleasant and dangerous belief system, even worse in some ways than the other Abrahamic religions".
Posted by: Nick Gotts | May 9, 2008 11:49 AM
Correlation does not equal causation.
Is there any predominantly Christian country where non-Christians don't suffer prejudice compared to Christians? Like atheists in America or Muslims in Europe?
Posted by: windy | May 9, 2008 11:53 AM
Where's Carl Hiaasen when you need him?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 9, 2008 12:00 PM
I think Scientists were the people in Kampuchea telling Pol Pot that it was a good idea to kill all the scientists.
Posted by: Bruce | May 9, 2008 12:00 PM
Overton window 101, Ben Stein and Pinellas county :
Ben Stein : deliver rethoric which is seen as extreme, unthinkable, unacceptable
eg : "Scientists were the people in Germany telling Hitler that it was a good idea to kill all the Jews. Scientists were telling Stalin it was a good idea to wipe out the middle-class peasants. Scientists were telling Mao Tse-Tung it was fine to kill 50 million people in order to further the revolution."
(NB : each time, the limit moves...)
The practical effect of this can only be more "pinellas county florida", public servants who despite the fact that they might consider Ben Stein's rethoric as extreme, lose trust in science : "we don't want to be involved in the polemic" they'll claim.
To many Ben Stein seems like a clown, but that is precisely his function, to strech the window as far to the religious conservative right as possible that anything short of banning science, emprisoning atheists, and nuking the middle east seems acceptable...
As long as he gets away with it, why should he stop ?
Posted by: negentropyeater | May 9, 2008 12:06 PM
At this point, it's unnecessary to bash Islamic retards. This is not Europe. I live in TX and we have a huge population of Muslims. They know to keep their eyes averted and mouths shut. No motions for foot basins in public schools are put forward from Austin to Boston. Muslims who advertise in garb are lucky if they can get from their cars to the front door of 7/11 without being yee-hawed, beaten or shot for fun.
At this point, it's not necessary to worry about Muslims, the rednecks are doing fine keeping them in their place, in total fear of Christian kooks, which is the a proper worldview. No Muslim ever beat the shit out of me and threw me in jail for smoking a joint.
As for their temper tantrums, I've raised children, they occasionally stomp the ground and tell you they hate you and wish you were dead.
OOOOO
I'm scared.
Kick me, beat me, make me say L. Ron Hubbard.
Not sure where you're from, but this ain't no Amsterdam around here.
Posted by: scooter | May 9, 2008 12:07 PM
Peter, Peter, Peter... when the Muslims in this country want to force sharia codes on non-Muslims, we'll be the first ones in line to give them a drubbing.
The idea that atheism/agnosticism is a Trojan Horse to allow ravening Wahhabist hordes to take over this country is perhaps the most absurd plank in the Christian Dominionist platform
Posted by: Longtime Lurker | May 9, 2008 12:18 PM
And so is Stein.
I will call him... Mini-Me!!!
I live in Paris, and you? In East Bumfuck, Texas?
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | May 9, 2008 12:18 PM
Heck, the local Thai place even took their satay appetizer off the menu. You KNOW it's not Amsterdam when there's no satay on every corner.
Posted by: Pablo | May 9, 2008 12:18 PM
I think you hit Shift and a cursor key and accidentally deleted a line or something.
It comes from the inability to understand that there are more than two sides in this world. (From Manichaeism.)
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | May 9, 2008 12:23 PM
Exactly. Because atheism isn't a lack in belief of a god[s] it's just a lack in belief in theirs. So we get lumped in with all the others.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbCHimp | May 9, 2008 12:29 PM
Rather that should read "it's just a denial of theirs".
They can't grasp the lack of belief thing either.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 9, 2008 12:31 PM
@19: Ric
Thy will be done.
I like your arguments and discussion. You have a lot of patience. I will try to keep up.
JC
Posted by: Jack Chastain | May 9, 2008 12:37 PM
Pinellas is the most urbanized county in the state. It is by far the most "liberal" of any county in the tampa bay area, if anywhere in FL can be called liberal.
Yet this goes on. I know, I lived there. That's why when some of you were skeptical about the "witchcraft" allegations toward that teacher in Pasco county, I fully believed it.
Head out of Pinellas into Hillsborough, and you take a deep plunge into god-besotted homophobia and xenophobia.
Head out of Pinellas into Pasco, and you'll wish you were heading into Hillsborough instead. It's THAT bad in FL.
Posted by: craig | May 9, 2008 12:37 PM
Peter #53,
1. please stop circulating this myth that islam is invading Europe. I know it is popular on Fox News and in some saloons in mid Kansas but it is simply not true. At the most it has increased when immigration from islamic nations (especially maghreb in France, turkey in Germany, Pakistan in UK) was strong, but this is now very limited, and it is now also clear that 2nd and 3rd generations are subject to the same rates of decrease in religiosity as with Christians. All in all, muslims represent not more than 2 or 3% of the population of the European Union.
If there is one "religion" that is increasing much more rapidly than all the others, it's that of "non belief".
2. I've lived many years in Malaysia and Morrocco and never felt any prejudice for not being a muslim. Maybe you have more experience with living in Muslim countries that you would like to share with us...
Posted by: negentropyeater | May 9, 2008 12:40 PM
If there is one "religion" that is increasing much more rapidly than all the others, it's that of "non belief".
Ah,there we have it: an atheist finally admits that "non-belief" is a religion. Soon to be quote(mine)d at Uncommon descent. Nanny nanny boo boo.
Poe! Poe! Poe!
Posted by: xyz | May 9, 2008 12:51 PM
If there is one "religion" that is increasing much more rapidly than all the others, it's that of "non belief".
Ah,there we have it: an atheist finally admits that "non-belief" is a religion. Soon to be quote(mine)d at Uncommon descent. Nanny nanny boo boo.
Poe! Poe! Poe!
Posted by: xyz | May 9, 2008 12:52 PM
Yes, because we all watch the English-only Al Jazeera TV all day. Well that and the occasional "Death to America" party.
Posted by: Moses | May 9, 2008 12:56 PM
"please stop circulating this myth that islam is invading Europe. I know it is popular on Fox News and in some saloons in mid Kansas but it is simply not true."
Pat Buchanan, "America's Racist Uncle" (TM) is one of the biggest proponents of this drivel. I think that it is fueled as much by fantasies of "decadent" Europe having to throw itself on the mercy of God-fearin' 'Merkins as it by anti-Muslim hatred. Hell, just the mention of France sends these trogs into a frenzy.
Posted by: Longtime Lurker | May 9, 2008 12:56 PM
This goes WAY beyond the "ID is a science" "No it isn't" dogfights, and signifies that we are (however slowly and imperceptibly) losing ground to the barbarians.
When it gets to the stage that the simple act of an expert imparting their knowledge is deemed to be too controversial to be allowed, it's time to sit up and realise that the propoganda war being waged by the creationists is working. Hyperbolic as it may sound, the destruction of enlightened civilisation has begun.
These people - whether they know what they are doing or not - are dragging us back to the Dark Ages, and unless we are content for this slide to continue, their influence must be stamped out utterly and as soon as possible. We need to get the civilised majority of the population - and that, I would like to think, includes politicians - to realise that while creationism proponents have every right to be as crazy as they want, that their craziness is not something remotely deserving of respect, attention, or sympathy, and is in fact inimical to our way of life. Their beliefs should be viewed through the same lens that we view historians who deny the Holocaust, or people who think apartheid was a good idea. Sure - they can maintain a cretinous and backward opinion if they want to, but have to understand that it is cretinous and backward, and that they are no longer going to be given any respect for it, and will be viewed as an enemy of reason and of civilisation for maintaining it.
Posted by: Rudi | May 9, 2008 12:58 PM
Oops, forgot to close the brackets.
Posted by: Rudi | May 9, 2008 12:59 PM
xyz? Who let Larry Fafarman out of the dungeon?
Posted by: Blake Stacey | May 9, 2008 1:00 PM
"During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act."
-George Orwell
Posted by: James F | May 9, 2008 1:07 PM
negentropyeater #62 para 2:
is it really so, is there is no problem with apostasy, proselytising for other religions, maintaining a blog like this in those countries, let alone what they call blasphemy,?
Morocco:
http://www.abc.net.au/correspondents/content/2005/s1522716.htm
Malaysia:
http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/64EAAEC5-6347-4698-8579-11A710E2AB44.htm
No doubt you were not interested in exercising these fundamental human rights while you were there, but you people trying to pretend the problem doesn't exist is what baffles me.
I'm not going to call anyone a liar or a bigot like the charming Nick Gotts, but I think some explaining has to be done here.
Peter
Posted by: peter | May 9, 2008 1:10 PM
Not only is it bad enough that Fafarman is posting here, but twice... identical comments.
It's almost too much to endure.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | May 9, 2008 1:11 PM
"Scientists were the people in Germany telling Hitler that it was a good idea to kill all the Jews."
Mind boggling. Maybe Stein should've read something like this instead of "From Darwin to Hitler". Or maybe if he had just the slightest bit of knowledge about history.
Posted by: Citizen Z | May 9, 2008 1:13 PM
We are a doughty band of brothers.
Yes, why not? It seems an appropriate description for this wretchedness. Someone meditated on this decision and sided with the forces of ignorance.
Yes. I am all those things.
Really? I must have missed them. PZ usually turns out a few screeds every month that highlights some Islamic lunacy or other.
Speaking as a Briton, I would say they are at best a big show in some local neighbourhoods. But hardly the town. Suggestions that we are succumbing to the pernicious forces of Islam are not only premature, but unwise.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | May 9, 2008 1:16 PM
I think peter is trying to say that when religion takes control, freedoms are stifled. I think he is saying we should do our best to limit Christianity from government, and be happy that unbelief is growing so fast in America and Europe.
Posted by: Dennis N | May 9, 2008 1:17 PM
You know as well as I do that the easy ride is mostly by default: Islam just doesn't come in for anything like the same flak as Christianity: it's almost never mentioned.
Judaism, too.
In the case of Islam, a lot of americans are afraid to speak out against it, for fear of further perpetuating the "americans are on a crusade" meme that was successfully started by President Bush and has been fuelled by the not-so-subtle giggling from the christian right wing. I used to have a few christian right wing acquaintances who didn't realize I'm an anarchist/nihilist and used to forward me gleeful images of arabs getting shot in the head by sniper fire, captioned over with nice things like "Allah didn't help" and similar filth. So, let's be honest: there are a lot of christians who are laughing in private that Islam (as they perceive it) is getting a smack-down. They're just subtle about it. Many of us (myself included) are hesitant to keep pointing and laughing at islam because we don't want to run the risk of being mistaken for the christards. (By the way I am no longer on those Email distribution lists because I cheerfully asked if "Anyone have any good videos of christians being fed to lions?")
Judaism gets huge slack because it's extremely difficult to point the finger of mirth at them without having the accusation of anti-semitism flung back. Judaism also gets huge slack because it's able to shift seamlessly between being "a culture" and "a political movement" -- so if you point and giggle at (for example) jewish dietary law, you can be accused of cultural insensitivity - as if that somehow defuses the observation that they don't eat ham because the great sky fairy doesn't like the pigs he invented. Etc.
The buddhists get a lot of slack because their belief system is such a wonky bag of bollocks it's very hard to come to grips with. Add to that, the extremely denatured version that was filtered over to the US in the 60's by Alan Watts and Daisetz Suzuki: they left a lot of the reincarnated saint manifestation bulldada out and swept the red-handed violence of the nichiren and tibetan branches under the carpet. And then you've got that cheerful old sainthood-selling mountebank the daily lama - he's very hard to criticize, in spite of the fact that he's a despotic theocrat who claims to be (basically) a god. A god so poor he sold Stephen Segal a sainthood, for f*ck's sake... Yeah - but it's hard to point and laugh at him when presidents, popes, and world leaders gather around to hear his Deepak Chopra-esque pronouncements.
Anyhow - christians are an easy target because they are so vocal and stupid and haven't got a "cultural" leg to lean back on (which is why it's crucial for us to deny them their repeated attempts to claim the United States as a "christian nation") and their political movements haven't been so effective since the christians expended all their political capital by over-doing things during the wars of religion and brought the enlightenment down upon themselves.
So, for the record:
ALL religions are stupid.
ALL followers of religions must partake to a greater or lesser degree of the stupid and therefore are, to a greater or lesser degree, stupid themselves.
How's that?
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | May 9, 2008 1:23 PM