…and this is a 
A barbaric tragedy
Category: Evil
Posted on: June 2, 2008 9:40 AM, by PZ Myers
I wondered, incorrectly, if Leila Hussein was a reluctant accomplice in the death of her daughter, Rand Abdel-Qader, the young girl who was murdered by her monstrous father for speaking to a British soldier. Now I feel particularly awful about that; Leila Hussein was devastated by the killing, condemned the act, and left her contemptible husband at grave personal risk.
Leila Hussein has been murdered, gunned down as she tried to escape Iraq.
It was two weeks after Rand's death on 16 March that a grief-stricken Leila, unable to bear living under the same roof as her husband, found the strength to leave him. She had been beaten and had had her arm broken. It was a courageous move. Few women in Iraq would contemplate such a step. Leila told The Observer in April: 'No man can accept being left by a woman in Iraq. But I would prefer to be killed than sleep in the same bed as a man who was able to do what he did to his own daughter.'
Her words were to prove prescient. Leila turned to the only place she could, a small organisation in Basra campaigning for the rights of women and against 'honour' killings. Almost immediately she began receiving threats - notes calling her a 'prostitute' and saying she deserved to die like her daughter.
This is an instance of unimaginable fear, hatred, and tragedy…and it's just one example of a climate and pattern of oppression of women. It's a story that's hard to read through the tears.
Politics
Comments
There's some sad, sad men over there. Such a need for control, so afraid of women.
Posted by: Dennis N | June 2, 2008 9:47 AM
Oppression FTL... Such a sad story.
Posted by: Philip R | June 2, 2008 9:50 AM
My level of recents news its the lowest of the low. I didnt know about this situation but its incredible in its
cruelty. Its strikes fear into my heart. I think... could
i have done something to help this corageous woman ?
May we can stop things like this to happen again.
I feel helpless in this, but i feel like taking
action somehow...
Posted by: Lord Zero | June 2, 2008 9:50 AM
Clearly people took action here. They must not have trusted in their god to do it, so they went out and did it themselves. Somehow that redoubles their faith.
Posted by: Dennis N | June 2, 2008 9:52 AM
Bunch of fucking barbarians.
Posted by: raven | June 2, 2008 9:53 AM
What's the name of the organisation in Basra that fights against honour killings, anyone know? It looks like whoever they were they shut down operations due to threats. I'd love to help them out any way I can and give them my support. It's sad that Leila would have to be a martyr, but if we put our work into it, maybe she can not have died in vain.
Posted by: Reginald | June 2, 2008 9:56 AM
That just makes me sick... Poor woman...
Posted by: Snitzels | June 2, 2008 9:57 AM
This its one of the most obvious examples
of the evils of religion...
If their moral its twisted around and their criticism
its nill, they can do anything being proud of their
faith... its sickens me so much... i feel nauseous...
Posted by: Lord Zero | June 2, 2008 9:57 AM
I'd like to be able to blame their religion for promulgating these kinds of actions, but really, it's just plain old misogyny. The same kind that kills women of all religions and none, in their country, ours, and all others. The same kind that's causing a man to beat his wife right now, within a few miles of where any of us live, the same kind that lets men off the hook for "crimes of passion", the same kind that leads newspaper reporters to write stories about men being charged with "having sex with" young girls rather than using the word "rape", the same kind that makes it acceptable on network tv to joke about killing a presidential candidate just because she's an uppity woman. Compartmentalizing it as something that men "over there" do in "that religion" shifts the blame heavily and inappropriately - it's all us.
Posted by: Carlie | June 2, 2008 9:58 AM
Ugh. That's just awful. I was really hopping that she would be able to escape from the situation.
How can murder be less of a sin then talking to someone? How can talking to someone be a sin?
It is incredibly scary that these people are able to justify such violent actions against their own flesh and blood.
I just don't get it.
Posted by: Serena | June 2, 2008 10:00 AM
How sickening. It seems they are yet to reach the dark ages...
Posted by: Maakuz | June 2, 2008 10:00 AM
Where is the first Muslim to justify this act? Maybe no true Muslim does these things. But they do get done. Belief in life after death leads to death.
Posted by: tsig | June 2, 2008 10:01 AM
I used to live in Lybia and can attest to the majority of disgusting people who live in that society, and yes Iraq is no different than Lybia. The people(should I say the men) are for the most part(cherish the exceptions)a disgusting lot. Another mark on the wall for religious piety and goodness. How long do we have to live under these rules? When will people see the injustice of their religious convictions? If there were a hell I would take them on a trip to see it sort of like we do with wild teenagers taken to juvi to stike fear in their hearts to straighten them out.
Posted by: Barklikeadog | June 2, 2008 10:05 AM
Just keep repeating...
Religion of Peace...
Religion of Peace...
Religion of Peace...
Posted by: Sean Stone | June 2, 2008 10:11 AM
It's horrible and tragic, but there is a hopeful side. Here was a woman who saw a culturally accepted atrocity for what it was, and left her husband in protest despite knowing the immense risk involved.
I think that people like her will eventually end this insanity.
Posted by: mcow | June 2, 2008 10:11 AM
It's not hard to see how the notion of Hell originated. Sometimes I'm tempted to think such a place might almost be justifiable. It's not, of course. Even this crime, heinous though it was, doesn't merit eternal punishment.
Posted by: mikespeir | June 2, 2008 10:16 AM
Misogyny... i see your point, i guess its dificult
for people who live in a society where men and
women are supposed to have the same potencial to achieve
their personal goals in life, to fully understand
something like that... im guess im just
not triying enough, maybe a antropologist would.
The real shame its the loss of the potencial of
those opresed women in humanity at large, they could
be great scientists and push people forward.
Posted by: Lord Zero | June 2, 2008 10:18 AM
I'm by no means a fan of war, but it's stories like this that make me wish we could just bomb them back to the stone age and be done with it.
Posted by: S.J. | June 2, 2008 10:19 AM
An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind, S.J. But I can see the temptation.
Posted by: Dennis N | June 2, 2008 10:25 AM
That's evil - just plain evil.
Next time I hear someone say that you can't be moral without god I'm going to find it really hard not to punch their smug face.
Posted by: Lee Harrison | June 2, 2008 10:28 AM
Dennis, I know that wouldn't help anything, but sometimes it's hard to see how we can ever get atrocities like this to stop. I suppose the only real solution is to let them figure it out for themselves.
Posted by: S.J. | June 2, 2008 10:30 AM
Cue the post-modern armchair commentators to correct us all and tell us that this has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, somehow.
Glad I hit refresh before commenting. Hello, Carlie.
I forget who pointed this out first, but one of the major differences between Christianity-inspired violence here and Muslim-inspired violence there, is that we are legally a secular society.
Oh, sure, we still get nuts who kill their wives and babies for Jesus, or blow up abortion clinics or smash fossils (you won't find me arguing that the bible is any better than the Koran in its extremism and calls for violence), but these people go to jail.
So, yeah, what's worse than religion? Religion given free unchecked reign over a society.
I forget what my point is, I'm so disgusted at this, and disgusted in advance at the inevitable 200-post post-modern discussion we're going to have here, where half the people will try to out-politically correct the other half, completely ignoring what these monsters, as well as the Koran itself, have to say.
Posted by: Jason Failes | June 2, 2008 10:31 AM
SJ: I'm by no means a fan of war, but it's stories like this that make me wish we could just bomb them back to the stone age and be done with it.
If you don't believe that the folks in Missouri, and many town in the US, wouldn't be capable of this but are held back by the rest of us, I got a bridge to sell 'ya. Wasn't it in Wyoming where a couple of men crucified a gay man? How big a step would it be to murdering your daughter?
And remember, this crap didn't fly under Hussein - he was a murderous bastard, but he was for fairly equal rights for most of his regime. The world is too complex to boil down to "bombing the bastards to the stone age", particularly after we have done that, and only exacerbated the situation. The world just doesn't work that way.
If anything, it's the exact opposite -- we have to raise their standard of living, if you expect to improve their way of life. Give them something to prop their egos better than abusing the weak, give them something to live for, rather than just live against. Instead, we prop up (aka, your tax dollars go to the military to support) the bastard Saud clan who fund the religious police and fundamentalist terrorists, while their own impoverished populations grovel at their feet.
Posted by: frog | June 2, 2008 10:34 AM
Amen Jason, Amen.
Posted by: Barklikeadog | June 2, 2008 10:37 AM
Oh shit. This makes me sick. I had truly hoped that Leila Hussein would be able to escape and make a better life for herself.
Posted by: Seamyst | June 2, 2008 10:38 AM
mcow @ #15: +1 I only hope I could be so heroic if I was in a similar situation. The same goes for "Maryam" in "Faisal" in the story.
Carlie @#9: Yes, but also no. Obviously, treating this as something essential to the character of Arab men would be wrong but I think it is clear that misogyny in Iraq and misogyny in Sweden (say) are not the same thing. Gender equality is at least a cultural normal thing to believe in the west. It's the fact that women's rights are so far outside the Overton window in many Muslim countries that makes those prepared to stand up for them so heroic.
Posted by: Matt Heath | June 2, 2008 10:43 AM
The only consolidation for my anger is knowing that this angers quite a lot of people. If I were the only one who was shocked to read this, I would be seriously more depressed than I already am.
It's a small consolidation, but it's the only thing I've got to keep me from falling into despair every time I read about an honour killing or a child prostitution ring. And there's no difference between the kind of depravity it takes to molest a child, and the one that convinces people to kill their own wife and daughter, except of course that child molesters don't always kill their victims.
Posted by: Christopher Olson | June 2, 2008 10:44 AM
But you already did.
Posted by: windy | June 2, 2008 10:49 AM
Matt - true, there are different degrees in cultural norms of gender equality. I'm not trying to say that it's equal, but my point was that we can't just point and say "Oh, we're nothing like that here." The fuck we're not. Jason, I didn't say it had nothing to to with Islam, I said that Islam can't be completely blamed for it. That's too easy, and it ignores the suffering going on in every other culture, and absolves us of having to look at ourselves at all. You say the problem is religion going unchecked over society as if religion is some entity of its own divorced from the people who make it up in the first place. Religion is just a convenient encapsulation of the attitudes of a group of people.
Posted by: Carlie | June 2, 2008 10:49 AM
Bloody hell, what a depressing story.
Those women who tried to help Leila are heroes.
Posted by: MissPrism | June 2, 2008 10:51 AM
I wish there was a way to turn all those barbaric men into women and let them see how much they'd like being treated like dirt.
Sometimes it feels like the culture there is so hopeless that anyone trying to improve the situation even a little will get killed. I'll have to console myself with the fact that some of the modern civilized cultures were also just as barbaric hundreds or thousands of years ago, so that the situation isn't entirely hopeless.
Posted by: Yoo | June 2, 2008 10:53 AM
Windy, Frog, again, I KNOW THAT BOMBING THEM IS NOT THE ANSWER! I'm not a fan of the war in Iraq, or any war. But after reading the story, my first, angry, knee-jerk reaction was to want to hurt the people responsible as badly as I could. I wouldn't act on it, even if given the chance, it was just the first thought of a mind clouded by anger.
I actually think frog has the right idea with raising their standard of living.
Posted by: S.J. | June 2, 2008 10:54 AM
Maybe we should start a fund. Escape From Islam.
Posted by: tsig | June 2, 2008 10:58 AM
Damn...didnt think it could get worse. :(
Posted by: Andrew | June 2, 2008 11:02 AM
#31- "I wish there was a way to turn all those barbaric men into women and let them see how much they'd like being treated like dirt."
Back in the days following the 9/11 attacks, I thought if they ever managed to capture Bin Laden, the best punishment imaginable would be a sex change operation for him, then release back into Middle East culture.
What prison could possibly compare?
Posted by: Rick R | June 2, 2008 11:03 AM
Can we please not get so high and mighty about how womens' rights come naturally to Civilised Peoples like us? Women got the vote about 80 years ago, and marital rape was legal until about 15 years ago, and there was strong resistance to both of those changes.
Posted by: MissPrism | June 2, 2008 11:04 AM
I'm so glad we've spent trillions of dollars bringing the gift of democracy to Iraq. Money well-spent.
Posted by: Susan | June 2, 2008 11:08 AM
Submissionism, (the religion of the followars of Mohammad, piss be upon him), the religion of peace that respects women, so they claim.
These evil misogynists disgust me.
Posted by: Richard Harris | June 2, 2008 11:08 AM
Boy, it sure is a good thing that we got rid of their oppressive secular government and gave them the freedom to exercise their religion!
Yay, team! We had nothing whatever to do with unleashing religious tyrrany in Iraq, no sir, not us!
Posted by: DocAmazing | June 2, 2008 11:10 AM
In China they used to bind the feet of their women so they couldn't walk.
Here in the Middle East, they commit 'honour' killings.
Europe once deprived women of any and all property rights and inheritance.
We're all guilty of it at sometime in the past.
Europe, and the US, though both of us are not completely free of it yet, have come a long way since and because of the Enlightenment. We learned the hard way from religious wars and atrocities against minorities that everything should be questioned, everything should be poked, prodded, tested, examined, re-examined, theorized over, contemplated and blogged about.
We finally learnt that a lot of our prejudices were groundless rubbish, the idea of the dirty Jew, the perverted Homosexual, the idolatrous Catholic, the stupid and emotional Woman, all gone in the last couple of hundred years. Some took longer than other unfortunately.
We need to spread the Enlightenment value that an untested prejudicial value is not worth the breath it's spoken with.
Maybe then people will see that no-one is inherently sinful, dirty, perverted, or evil, and the only thing worth criticising is the baseless, theoryless, kneejerk, emotional reaction.
Maybe then we can finally be rid of horrors like this.
Posted by: Akheloios | June 2, 2008 11:13 AM
JF: Cue the post-modern armchair commentators to correct us all and tell us that this has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, somehow.
Well, Mr. Armchair Commentator, why does Islam suddenly have unchecked control over Iraq, where a decade ago it did not? Hmmm? How did this possibly come to be?
Could it involve a number of "secular, law-based societies" which suddenly where not following international law -- an international law that they themselves were crucial in creating, but suddenly didn't apply to "barbarians" (emotionally driven from our own primitive theologies)? But you expect us to decry the proximate cause, but ignore the ultimate cause, eh?
Gahh, what's worse than post-modernism? The vulgar moral relativism derived from post-modernism by nationalists and jingoists!
Posted by: frog | June 2, 2008 11:14 AM
Carlie @ 29 wrote:
"Religion is just a convenient encapsulation of the attitudes of a group of people."
Wait, I thought religion was a set of eternally absolutely correct beliefs handed down by God (or in the case of other peoples' religions, eternally absolutely incorrect beliefs handed down by Satan)...
Point is, even though you are correct, no one seriously adhering to one of these Abrahamic religions would see their own beliefs that way, making religion an inherently different creature from other philosophical encapsulations, such as national constitutions or political platforms, that are (in principle, if less often in practice) open to new information, reconsideration, and change.
Posted by: Jason Failes | June 2, 2008 11:16 AM
Could it involve a number of "secular, law-based societies" which suddenly where not following international law
Noam Chomsky's said again and again that we don't look at things universally. We like to think that we're better than others, that we don't commit crimes, that 'evil' is always the 'other'.
We're doomed to repeat history unless we look at ourselves with the same scrutiny that we do everyone else.
We're guilty of warcrimes, illegal wars and torture. The one thing that is possibly redeeming is that we don't allow our governments to do it to us.
If we could show that same restraint when dealing with the rest of the world, then I'd be happy. Though I doubt Ann Coulter would.
Posted by: Akheloios | June 2, 2008 11:23 AM
Yeah, like that would help. From a moral perspective, how would you tell the difference?
Posted by: Dunc | June 2, 2008 11:26 AM
This is tragic; this is the kind of hatred only a combination of religion sanction and social mores can inspire. By the way, all those pontificating about our "civilized" culture and feeling disgusted at "their" barbarism should remember that our governments were at least partially responsible for creating fundamentalist islamic power blocs by helping to systematically obliterate all secular opposition to U.S. and British policies in that part of the world. You know the middle east once had secular nationalists....once they were eliminated with a lot of U.S. taxpayer help, the only viable opposition was religious (in fact actively promoted by the U.S. to destroy the secular nationalist enemy).
Also remember that as frog points out wars only embolden these fundamentalists and gain them more followers. When your country is under attack by the sole superpower thug and your lives are at risk, you will will forced to seek the help of the worst available thugs in your country who, incidentally, are the most effective in offering protection; these thugs also just happen to be (religious)fundamentalist thugs, and you play by their rules.
Yes we should be disgusted and look forward to a day when such acts of blatent misogyny cannot be justified by religious or social sanction. But let us do it as human beings, and not as more "civilized" westerners who despair for these "uncivilized" brown people in the desert somewhere (and by the way, our government's barbarities, on the other hand, are more directed to people living in other countries. The fact that the victims of our governments mostly live in other countries should not mitigate the "barbaric" or "uncivilized" nature of those acts, as in "can you believe it, Saddam killed his own people"!!! as if killing other people is morally better).
Posted by: protocol | June 2, 2008 11:32 AM
"Well, Mr. Armchair Commentator, why does Islam suddenly have unchecked control over Iraq, where a decade ago it did not? Hmmm? How did this possibly come to be?"
An Evangelical idiot named George W. Bush, because he thought God was on his side, bombed the hell out of Iraq and forcibly removed its secular government. It was on the news.
A dramatic reduction in Iraqi quality of life, not to mention the invasion itself, made fundamentalist versions of Islam more attractive, and an atmosphere of relative lawlessness has allowed these offenses to go unchecked.
I'm not sure what you are on about. Because I don't attach a 20-page pdf of my beliefs to every post, or redundantly rehash my disgust at GW's actions here (in a place where I would presume an overwhelming majority of people understand that the invasion of Iraq was evidentially groundless and morally indefensible), I therefore approve of nationalist jingoism?
We live in a multi-causational world: Islam can be an evil stupid religion, America can have an evil stupid president, and misogyny can be a persistent evil stupid attitude, all at the same time.
Posted by: Jason Failes | June 2, 2008 11:38 AM
Miss Prism @#36: Going through the comments preceding yours I wonder if you weren't addressing me @#26. If so, you don't have to me that. I'm sat in a Western European country (Portugal) which only brought its first law against domestic violence in the last decade so I know very well that breaking historical oppression is always a struggle. But it is still the case that in some places it is a harder struggle than others.
I really don't think I am coming from a complacently pro-Western viewpoint when I say that it is easy for a boy growing up in Europe or North America to grow up seeing women as deserving equal rights than it is for a boy growing up in the Gulf States or Afghanistan. Yes, demonising the "other" and failing to see similarities with one's own culture is always a risk to be fought against, but equally so is over correcting for this to the extent that you deny that cultural background has an impact on levels of oppression.
Posted by: Matt Heath | June 2, 2008 11:44 AM
Of all the things that Islamists are allowed to do, I find it rather curious that you find this to be the most gruesome. A video was posted on youtube sometime ago where an Iraqi girl was stoned to death on the streets, for falling in love with another "muslim" guy (muslim! not an INFIDEL!). i am sure this utterly horrifying video can still be viewed. Islam is not a religion for human beings. I demand, defend and fight for truth and evolution.
I find it utterly disgusting that people defend Islam for the moderates in that religion. It is like defending nazism for the good people in that party.
And one more thing, I also think that they will still sell us their oil even if we do not defend Islam... after all how different are those rich sheikhs from our rich politicians.
Posted by: Mich S | June 2, 2008 11:45 AM
How hideous. I don't believe in hell, but for some I'd like to make an exception.
Posted by: Tim | June 2, 2008 11:47 AM
Cue the post-modern armchair commentators to correct us all and tell us that this has absolutely nothing to do with Islam, somehow.
The question is not whether this has "absolutely nothing to do with Islam", but what the most suitable distinction is. You say it's Islam versus non-Islam, I go for "people who do terrible things in the name of Islam" versus everyone else.
The reason my distinction is the right one and yours is wrong is that (a) it doesn't unfairly malign large numbers of innocent people (including the victim and the heroes in this case) (b) we have a better chance of doing something successful operating across my lines (you ain't going to make Islam go away whatever you think about it), because... (c) mine allows for a broader and stronger coalition to be built against the bad guys, significantly including moderate Muslims - who have a better chance of being heard where it matters than a bunch of atheist americans pissing over the prophet.
In other words, if you think the distinction between condemning evil bastardry and condemning Islam wholesale is "post-modern", then you's an idiot.
Posted by: Larry Teabag | June 2, 2008 11:55 AM
Interesting pattern: When atrocities such as this one or female genital mutilation are pointed out in blogs, there are the commenters who say "don't judge others, it's their culture; or, our culture was recently just as bad; or, xianity is just as bad,". When a posting points out some type of injustice against women in this country, another group jump on the "these damn man-hating feminists don't know how good they have it! Quit your bitching!" bandwagon.
So, which is it?
Posted by: ildi | June 2, 2008 11:58 AM
I think "our culture was recently like this" is part of the point. We've moved on and they should too. They have the benefit of seeing us do it, while we had to mostly figure it out for ourselves.
Posted by: Dennis N | June 2, 2008 12:00 PM
Larry@50
"In other words, if you think the distinction between condemning evil bastardry and condemning Islam wholesale is "post-modern", then you's an idiot."
And if you think that a moderate religion can ever arise from a religion with such gems as this in its holy writ...
"Kill disbelievers wherever you find them."
...then right back at you, Larry.
I'm with Dawkins on this. Moderates provide license for extremists in all religions. All religions must go.
I'm not advocating anything violent, but I'll be rude as all hell telling them to prove it or lose it.
Posted by: Jason Failes | June 2, 2008 12:07 PM
Matt - No, it wasn't in response to your commemnt - or any one particular comment, it just seemed that some people were making a sharp distinction between Civilisation (Us) and Barbarians (Them) and forgetting how recent our own progress is.
Of course, I agree with you that the West and Iraq are currently in very diffferent places on the continuum!
Posted by: MissPrism | June 2, 2008 12:10 PM
1. You're implying that they're not in the stone age now.
2. Lots more women like Leila would die in the bombing.
If we could somehow invent a bomb that only kills assholes....
Posted by: ShavenYak | June 2, 2008 12:12 PM
This sort of "honor killing" has been an islamic family value for hundreds of years. Don't expect it to change anytime soon.
I don't wish bad things on anyone but I wonder how soon the old man will meet his own fate?
Posted by: Don't ask don't tell! | June 2, 2008 12:26 PM
All religions must go.
Good luck with that. In the mean time don't be too surprised if your anti-Muslim rhetoric (as a contribution to debates about immediately pressing problems and their solutions) is liable to merge in people's minds with that of e.g Ann Coulter. Both of you see as irrelevant the distinction between the people who killed this woman, and the people who tried to save her.
Posted by: Larry Teabag | June 2, 2008 12:28 PM
Then quit being a moderate athiest, eliminate the evil theist, fundamentalist and moderate. begin the murder and torture of all thiests, and infants born to thiests. quit being a moderate and letting them continue to exist.
Posted by: rb | June 2, 2008 12:28 PM
What, rb? Can you find an extremist atheist? Do they have TV shows and presidential candidates seeking their endorsement? If Dawkins is your definition of a militant atheist, well, look what he strives for. Full right to religion in your private lives if you're an adult? How audacious of him!!
Posted by: Dennis N | June 2, 2008 12:31 PM
Thanks for replying, MissPrism
Posted by: Matt Heath | June 2, 2008 12:32 PM
Larry, Islam did not empower this woman to break free from her husband. She and the people who helped her rose above their religion, because they were better than it. Someone like Ann Coulter opposes Islam because it happens to not be the religion she grew up in. Its hypocritical. We oppose all religion, and that is very consistent.
Posted by: Dennis N | June 2, 2008 12:34 PM
@#53: The Old Testament isn't any better, and would you say you've never met a decent Christian? Because I've met plenty. Same with Muslims.
The good ones are out there; they just ignore the nasty parts of their scriptures, because they're better, kinder, more compassionate people than the cruel, petty, child-abusing God they worship (unlike the ones who killed Leyla Hussain, who are just like him). They would be the same good people if they were atheists. They are out there.
Posted by: octopod | June 2, 2008 12:36 PM
Jason -
Do you believe that such things as moderate Judaism and moderate Christianity exist? If so, then the hurdle that Islam needs to clear isn't any higher. If you've spent any time in the Old Testament, you would know that.
http://www.evilbible.com/Rape.htm
Sure, the Christians are still totally giving us fits to this day, and I wouldn't want the task of harmonizing any religion this side of Deism with reality, but culture has a bit of a hand in saying which things are interpreted how and which are totally neglected. I think that the holy books will be working against us rather than for us, for the most part, in the mean time. But it's not an impossible turnaround.
Posted by: mothwentbad | June 2, 2008 12:38 PM
Comment for #54 ---MissPrism
100 years ago women were not treated as equals. 100 years ago all men were not treated as equals either. 100 years ago we did not have Google.....Oh! we did not have computers either....crummy world then! 100 years ago muslim men did not travel as much to witness other cultures...like Europe or North America. 100 years ago muslim men were not watching porn over the internet either.
But even 100 years ago men were not praised for killing their daughters here. 100 years ago women were not wearing burkhas here. 100 years ago people were not blowing themselves up in the name of religion here. Hmmm! that did not even happen 200 years ago. Oh! yeah we did have a lot of faults..but it is our will to change for the better that makes us truly wonderful.
Civilization versus barbarians....Hmmmm! you tell me what you would call us if we did any of that. I would call us barbarians :).....like we call the joker and his cronies in the WH.
Posted by: Mich S | June 2, 2008 12:38 PM
begin the murder and torture of all thiests, and infants born to thiests. quit being a moderate and letting them continue to exist.
Why are the religious so obsessed with torture?
Oh, right. They mastered the art.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | June 2, 2008 12:40 PM
Er, pretend that when I said "this side of Deism", I meant the theist anthropomorphic smitey beardy God side. Usually "this" would mean "atheist", given the beliefs of myself and the host.
Posted by: mothwentbad | June 2, 2008 12:41 PM
Yeah, but the only problem with that is that it doesn't do anything to really address the issue.
I wish... or any amount of anti-religious rhetoric isn't actually going to help in this case. As intellectually unpalatable as it may seem, pragmatism is the only hopeful route: we have to engage with people who call themselves moderate, those who occupy the more liberal end of the spectrum of religiosity, in order to make practical inroads into wiping out these vile cultural practices.
The people who have the most power to prevent tragedies such as this are Muslims. Any amount of condemnation from non-Muslims alone is simply impotent rage and moral indignation which will fall on deaf ears. Dawkins is absolutely right that moderate religion foments the conditions necessary for extremism, but it also often provides the only route of mediation.
Posted by: Bernard Bumner | June 2, 2008 12:50 PM
Well everyone, I share your outrage over this and I have done a number of posts on my blog about this as well.
The question is, what are you going to do about it?
The father and ex-husband of the murdered girl is still a free man who is apparently still collecting a salary from his government job. If anything is going to come out of this at all, this man, as well as his two sons who were accomplices in the murder of Rand, must pay for what he did. We need to start making some serious noise about this.
Posted by: Tommykey | June 2, 2008 12:51 PM
"All religions must go."
I suppose it would be more accurate to say that all religious control over societies must go. I really don't care what people believe in their heart of hearts, as long as they understand the legal limits of religion in a secular society.
That said, I really don't think people will stop trying to overthrow secular societies with religion until religion itself gets educated out of the vast majority of human minds.
There is a quote from the Bible in Luke (19:27) comparable to the Koranic verse I listed above. Tolerance is antithetical to the Abrahamic religions.
rb@58
"Then quit being a moderate athiest, eliminate the evil theist, fundamentalist and moderate. begin the murder and torture of all thiests, and infants born to thiests. quit being a moderate and letting them continue to exist."
Long Reply: I cannot even begin to tell you how wrong that is. Besides playing into preexisting religious persecution complexes, besides being against every tenet of free speech and secular governance that I, as an extreme atheist, believe in, your insane plan completely ignores the fact that minds can change. It's cheaper, easier, far more moral, and far less bloody to change minds through rebuttals, link-fests, and even rude mockery, than to eliminate bodies.
Short Version: The stupid, it burns.
Posted by: Jason Failes | June 2, 2008 12:53 PM
Good point Jason, rb was actually called for his own persecution to fulfill his persecution complex! Then he can feel self-righteous. He'll be horribly disappointed when we don't give him what he wants.
Posted by: Dennis N | June 2, 2008 12:57 PM
jf: 'm not sure what you are on about. Because I don't attach a 20-page pdf of my beliefs to every post, or redundantly rehash my disgust at GW's actions here (in a place where I would presume an overwhelming majority of people understand that the invasion of Iraq was evidentially groundless and morally indefensible), I therefore approve of nationalist jingoism?
So, you were just swinging at the almost non-existent group of idiots who think that cultural relativism implies that we shouldn't "judge" sectors of the modern world that enslave their own populations (since we're not talking about the 200 uncontacted indigenes wandering the Earth)? Strawman much?
See just now ildi: #51
Interesting pattern: When atrocities such as this one or female genital mutilation are pointed out in blogs, there are the commenters who say "don't judge others, it's their culture; or, our culture was recently just as bad; or, xianity is just as bad,". When a posting points out some type of injustice against women in this country, another group jump on the "these damn man-hating feminists don't know how good they have it! Quit your bitching!" bandwagon.
So, which is it?
As you see, these kind of simple-minded strawmen are quite common - so it's best not to swing at them and then whine that you were misunderstood (or even give the perception of swinging at them). Who says "we shouldn't judge them"? All that is said is that the larger context should be considered --- damning without looking at ourselves is exactly jingoistic nonsense. And who but trolls say that the "feminists should quit their bitching"?
Posted by: frog | June 2, 2008 12:57 PM
"And remember, this crap didn't fly under Hussein"
It did. Check out the activities of Uday Hussein.
Posted by: Don Cox | June 2, 2008 12:59 PM
So commentators make two points worth noticing.
Civilized countries have not been that way for long. True. We have made a lot of progress recently, women got rights somewhat before black people in the USA. Furthermore, some people who killed with impunity about 40 years ago, have recently been brough to trial. So the solution is to hope there is pressure for things to get better and then maybe this son of a bitch will end up doing time when he is 70.
"Its attitude not religion". Well duh, there is no god so religion is just a reflection people's attitudes. It is worse than other fantasies though, as it make people think they are right when they commit atrocities.
Yes this is a babaric and horrible case, and a plague on the perpetrators, who are so sexually insecure they have to kill. I suspect one of the reasons virginity is at such a premium is they cannot stand comparison.
However, consider the number who have killed and been maimed in the war in Iraq, and consider who is perpetrator of the worst evil.
Posted by: sailor | June 2, 2008 12:59 PM
It isn't post modernism (better termed post intelligent) but honor killings are found nowhere in the Koran. That said, people do point to their religion to defend such killings. It is more cultural than religious. Of course, it is a culture that religion has had a major part in producing.
Posted by: Robster, FCD | June 2, 2008 1:00 PM
Comment for #68----Tommy
Yup! only question we should be asking.
Solution I: Start unequivocally praising muslim men and women who oppose this. Advertise this fact and start calling them the only 'true muslims'.
Solution II: This might make some people queasy. Muslim men who do not adhere to western rules of democracy (this has to involve the equal rights for women) and live in western countries must and should lose their jobs and bussinesses.
Posted by: Mich S | June 2, 2008 1:02 PM
Comment for #68----Tommy
Yup! only question we should be asking.
Solution I: Start unequivocally praising muslim men and women who oppose this. Advertise this fact and start calling them the only 'true muslims'.
Solution II: This might make some people queasy. Muslim men who do not adhere to western rules of democracy (this has to involve the equal rights for women) and live in western countries must and should lose their jobs and bussinesses.
Posted by: Mich S | June 2, 2008 1:04 PM
If tomorrow we revoked laws in the USA and allowed men to kill their wives for "honorable" reasons, I would guarantee that thousands would be killed in the following days.
Posted by: Jay | June 2, 2008 1:05 PM
Our definitions of honour are not the same. I know no one whose only reason for not killing their family members is the law. You have a very sad, cynical view of us, Jay.
Posted by: Dennis N | June 2, 2008 1:07 PM
Yay, we're winning the war of bringing western civilization to Iraq!
Err, nevermind...quick, look at Paris Hilton!!11!
Posted by: AmeriDuh | June 2, 2008 1:08 PM
Having read the comments I would say that almost everyone has a valid point. Violence against women happens in every country in the world. There will always be persons who are scared they will lose something when someone else is given a chance to be their equal. The difference is that when culture and religion become inseperable, the ability for the enlightened to speak up becomes stifled and their voices go unheard. That is why it is even more important for them to speak up! And for those of us fortunate enough to be in countries where we can speak out we must so that we send a message that violence against women is unacceptable. But it is especially important now, that the leaders of the west make known their outrage, and yet we have not heard from most; how many here have made their feelings know to them?
Posted by: Dennis | June 2, 2008 1:21 PM
Jay, One, I agree with Dennis. Two, that is why we do not have those kinds of laws because some 'humans' are stupid. And if religions don't get that, they should be eradicated just for that reason..... amongst a million others.
Posted by: Mich S | June 2, 2008 1:23 PM
The misogyny and barbarism are shocking.
I haven't read through all the comments, so maybe it's already been posted, but I strongly suggest checking out stophonourkillings.com. It's a very worthy cause to support.
Posted by: BoxerShorts | June 2, 2008 1:26 PM
I don't think it's just misogyny.
Religion INSTITUTIONALIZES misogyny, and makes it an integral part of the culture. Religion rationalizes it. It enables it. It demands it.
Religion must be destroyed.
Posted by: Denis Loubet | June 2, 2008 1:31 PM
Destroyed by the tools of logic and reason, that is.
Posted by: Dennis N | June 2, 2008 1:32 PM
http://www.stophonourkillings.com/
The thing that infuriates me the most is when certain people (frustratingly, it's usually liberals) insist that these "honor killings" have nothing to do with Islam, and nothing to do with Arab culture.
I'll believe that as soon as I start reading about honor killings among Norwegian Episcopalians.
Posted by: Disciple of "Bob" | June 2, 2008 1:35 PM
Logic and reason...maybe Buddhism....not Islam
Posted by: Mich S | Jun