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PZ Myers is a biologist and associate professor at the University of Minnesota, Morris.
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The sequence [allocated in most texts] from jellyfish to trilobite to nautiloid to armored fish to dinosaur to monkey to human is no lineage at all, but a chronological set of termini on unrelated evolutionary trunks. Moreover life shows no trend to complexity in the usual sense - only an asymmetrical expansion of diversity around a starting point constrained to be simple.
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« Before there was Expelled… | Main | Physically present at the Evolution 2008 meetings »
Category: Creationism
Posted on: June 22, 2008 11:53 AM, by PZ Myers
Café Philos has a very good summary of the John Freshwater affair — he's the bad science teacher who thought the captive audience in his classroom was a fine target for proselytization for his cult. He's also the lunatic who burned a cross into a student's arm.
Comments
Oh great. He gets fired there. I'll bet he turns up in Mollah to teach the little faith healers.
Posted by: Patricia | June 22, 2008 11:58 AM
Halleluyah! God is great!
Posted by: Sili | June 22, 2008 12:08 PM
I'm glad that something is being done about that teacher (using the term loosely). I really don't understand how people can still try to do such things today, knowing how the courts have ruled about preaching religion in the classroom. Beyond that, the whole burning a cross into a kid's arm is beyond creepy. I don't think I will ever understand christians.
Posted by: Lledowyn | June 22, 2008 12:09 PM
Why is the son of a bitch not being brought up on assault charges?
Posted by: Capital Dan | June 22, 2008 12:19 PM
Christians don't even burn crosses on children in private schools. If this was a common practice, would be all over the media including this blog...So Mr Freshwater would not be allowed to burn crosses on a child's arm in religious schools either.
Posted by: Michael | June 22, 2008 12:20 PM
The sad part is, the guy will probably get hired by some fundamentalist Christian school or college, where he will be greeted as a hero.
Or maybe a fellowship at the Discovery Institute...
Posted by: Fergy | June 22, 2008 12:22 PM
I never heard of this guy, but...
to burn a cross onto a students arm...
that's insane! I mean, not normal insane,... this guy is fucking nuts!!!
I'm glad that I'm from Europe, because here this guy would have no chance of getting away in any sense. But in America it seems more okay (not okay, but a bit more okay) if you do such things in the name if faith (especially the christian faith).
What if he would have burn "KKK" onto a students arm?
Posted by: Patrick Albers | June 22, 2008 12:39 PM
Unfortunately, Freshwater will become one more example of how Christians are being persecuted. The atheistic, liberal, ACLU-loving evilitionists are crucifying a poor, down-trodden, humble fundamentalist who was merely trying to teach children about truth and Jesus.
I'm sure the FREEP, World News Daily, and conservapedia are milking this for all they can.
Posted by: JoJo | June 22, 2008 12:39 PM
I'm from ohio and am appalled. The funny thing is that this town is also home to a famous liberal arts college. Therein lies the dichotomy of ohio. We have these crazy bible thumping thugs, and then pockets of the extremely educated. Unfortunately the extremely educated seem to leave ohio once they graduate.
Posted by: sarah | June 22, 2008 12:43 PM
I don't get why this is even an issue, or why it's even necessary to mention the proselytizing thing...he burned a student deliberately? Fire him! Hell, there was a story year or so ago of a teacher using a school computer infected with spyware that popped up a bunch of porn images and she was immediately jailed I think and sentenced to 40 years in jail (I think that was overturned on appeal though). So what if he'd burned something else in the kid's arm? If it was a pentagram, I'm sure he'd have been hauled off long ago. Even an accidental burning would have resulted in discipline. The guy's a whackaloon for sure, but he assaulted a student.
Posted by: AlanWCan | June 22, 2008 12:59 PM
@jojo
I wish someone would tell me what is so humble about believing that the most powerful being in the universe thinks you're special. It just makes me laugh everytime I hear Christians referred to as "humble".
Posted by: Dutch Delight | June 22, 2008 1:00 PM
It's been so long since I heard anything about this case, it's nice to hear they're finally tossing this guy.
My thought the entire time has been:
"What if my kid was in this class?"
The fact that it's taken them so long to get anything done disappoints me, but the fact that they seem to be getting this wrapped up the way they should leaves me optimistic.
Posted by: JStein | June 22, 2008 1:02 PM
@ Jojo
Freshwater is such a serious nut, and given that he has assaulted students in the whole cross burning thing, I don't think that they'll go quite as far in defending him. He's not exactly a puppy dog figure here, and so he doesn't make for the best martyr.
They may make an off hand reference, but they won't go into the specifics of his case, because the student assault charge is really he core of it. It's not an act of religious persecution, it's an act of protecting the students, and I think that moderate Christians (the ones smart enough to use the internet) will see it that way.
Posted by: JStein | June 22, 2008 1:05 PM
Dutch Delight:
Thanks for your post. You reminded me of the comment that God is an omnipotent, omniscient being with a deep interest in everyone's sex life.
Posted by: JoJo | June 22, 2008 1:06 PM
Multiple students arms. As in more than one. This fucker had deliberately caused physical pain to more than one student and was allowed to keep his job. More people than him deserve to be fired. There was a failure from the top of that school district down, and the kid's parents are right in suing the hell out of Freshwater and the district.
Funny thing in the Dispatch, though. There was a group of religidiots that gathered in the parking lot as the school board decided his fate. They prayed for god to make the school board make 'the right decision'. It looks like they did. Finally.
As an Ohioan as well, I am deeply disturbed to be from even the same planet as these people, let alone within a hundred miles of them.
Other choice tidbits:
His attorney said that Freshwater is the victim here, being denied his Constitutional rights.
His douchebag lawyer said that the complaints were "fabrications created by a couple of students" and "not a single child has ever been harmed".
This jackass needs to rot in prison for child abuse, as well as interfering with the Constitutional rights of the students in his charge.
Posted by: Rich Stage | June 22, 2008 1:17 PM
Posted by: JStein | June 22, 2008 1:02 PM
If they wrapped it up the way they should have, he would be in jail and the entire school board would be facing trial for letting this proselytizing prick continue harming children because they disagreed with his beliefs. Forget the religious overtones. He physically harmed children in his classroom. More than one. AND THEY LET HIM CONTINUE!
If that is not criminal, then I should be allowed to burn a nice A into their foreheads. For either atheist or assholes. I'll let you decide.
Posted by: Rich Stage | June 22, 2008 1:25 PM
What has me utterly dumbfounded is why this guy isn't in jail right now. He admitted burning a student, deliberately. That it's clearly a cross rather than an 'X' as he claims is almost irrelevant.
Perhaps the fact that the religious thugs are allowed to roam free no matter what is why the educated people keep leaving, sarah.
I'd get the heck outta someplace that ignorant as soon as I possibly could, too, to live someplace civilized.
Posted by: BruceJ | June 22, 2008 1:27 PM
And in other news, Ohio now pulls into the lead regarding religious nuttery, with "Group pumped to pray for relief from gas prices".
Posted by: Ahcuah | June 22, 2008 1:27 PM
I don't know. I think even those crazies have their limits. I mean, Freshwater burned a painful cross into a kid's arm. I think if anyone tries to condone that sort of behavior and child abuse, they will prove themselves to be equally inhuman and despicable.
This isn't "people are picking on him because he's a Christian." This is, "he's an abusive monster who inflicts pain upon children in the name of Christianity."
I still believe the son of a bitch should face the firing squad. It's hard enough keeping children safe from other students in school these days, but for a teacher to willingly injure children in such a way as this is considerably worse.
If the Freepers want to encourage this behavior by supporting this violent lunatic, they'll only make themselves look equally nutty.
Posted by: Capital Dan | June 22, 2008 1:29 PM
This may be a rural district with retention issues. Not every college graduate wants to instruct rubes for 40 years. And, the kids are correct, the current high school curriculum is useless to field hands.
I spent years in a rural district. One teacher married 5 (or 6)of his students. Each lass was 15 when they wed. Most were pregnant. He remained because he had kin on the school board and very few literates chose to live in the area.
Posted by: Mold | June 22, 2008 1:31 PM
Given the quotes already provided by the people there and the parents of the burned kid practically getting on their knees to reassure everyone in town they weren't atheists, I'd like to see the media follow-up on the social situation in that town following this verdict.
It wouldn't surprise me at all if there were retaliations, given the moral deficiencies found among believers. Knowing that the big media will shy away from those stories and the victims being scared of more problems if they talk, i doubt we'll ever know.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | June 22, 2008 1:40 PM
Everybody's high-fiving each other because the Mt Vernon school board finally fired this nut case. Well, it took him burning crosses into some kid's arm to do it. Even then, it was 6 months after the fact. And, it took a parent's lawsuit to get the Mt Vernon school board to act. For the last upteen years this "teacher" has been using his science class as a brainwashing chamber for his religious beliefs. The school board knew about this, other teachers complained, but because the nut job kept a bible on his desk, the school board was afraid to take action. Even knowing that the branding occurred the school board didn't act. The school board only fired him after a parent sued the district and the teacher. Remember to these religious fantatics, godliness is next to the pocketbook. Seems that no one deserves high praise for much of anything. Certainly not the school board. As for some kind of victory freedom clear headed thinking, I suggest that everyone need look elsewhere.
Posted by: Continuum | June 22, 2008 1:41 PM
AlanWCan @ #10,
The details of that case are here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Julie_Amero
She was treated terribly, and her case will drive others away from substitute teaching.
Posted by: SC | June 22, 2008 1:42 PM
Funny thing is, it's not a rural district. Mount Vernon is a decent sized town with a fairly liberal 'liberal arts college'.
This is just a complete failure of the educational system, from the top down.
Posted by: Rich Stage | June 22, 2008 1:48 PM
Belated and pathetic as it is, it is a small victory. This lackwit could have gone on teaching indefinitely, an dwho knows how many other dimbulbs like him are still teaching right now? Put them on notice, and let's get more active in getting these cases attended to.
Posted by: PZ Myers | June 22, 2008 1:49 PM
Mold, where the hell are you from?
Wow, just WOW!
It's good to see he is finally getting canned, though his previous actions should have been enough to have had the firing happen years earlier it sounds like.
You can be as much of a nutball as you want in this country, so long as you are a Christian nutball.
Posted by: Dr. J | June 22, 2008 1:56 PM
The most depressing part of the story was seeing just how many years school administrators admitted they knew the guy was a problem but they hadn't been able (or were unwilling) to get rid of him.
Posted by: Nan | June 22, 2008 2:00 PM
What always gets me in these cases, whether it is Freshwater or Dover to mention just two examples, is how egregiously these fundies lie, lie and lie again to try and cover their asses when they are finally discovered. Doesn't their own rule book that must be lived by have something relevant to say about lying. From such numerous repeat examples it would appear that it is better to be an amoral atheist than a so called and usually self proclaimed 'moral' fundie.
It has almost come to the point that the answer to the question, 'how do you know a fundie is lying' is invariably 'when their lips are moving'.
Posted by: John Phillips, FCD | June 22, 2008 2:13 PM
All you need to know about this Christo-fascist is that he's being backed by a bunch of twits called "Minutemen United." Any group that has the word Minutemen in its name is instantly suspect, and these cement-heads are no exception.
Posted by: Paul Lundgren | June 22, 2008 2:27 PM
Yeah. Those Minutemen United are freakin' scary. Gotta love their tagline:
I need to buy a gun, I think.
Posted by: Capital Dan | June 22, 2008 2:38 PM
I'm thinking these minutemen people are blasphemers, surely JC doesn't need their help to spread his truth and love. As an omnipotent god I'd be humiliated if mere mortals were doing my job for me.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | June 22, 2008 2:52 PM
Mr. Freshwater--we don't do publicly funded madrassas here. At least not yet...
Posted by: Chuck | June 22, 2008 3:02 PM
Freshwater is presumably a member of a teacher's union. Might not be easy to entertain firing him until there's a lot of public support.
Posted by: decrepitoldfool | June 22, 2008 3:21 PM
Sigh... I'd love to say "good riddens" regarding this bastard and express my hope that he spends the rest of his worthless life begging for pocket change on street corners, but I'm sure that he's going to find fame and fortune among his fellow Christards. He'll be paraded around the Christian and conservative radio squawk shows, FOX News, and The 700 Club as a living martyr and example of the "persecution" of Christians by the secular, liberal, atheist, "god haters." Don't think for a second that this mother blanker doesn't have a book in the works that chronicles his harrowing ordeal and tells "the truth" about how public education is run by "godless socialists." He'll get offers to teach from various religious schools, honorary degrees from accredited Christian diploma mills," and probably make the right-wing lecture circuit where he can sing his song of woe to conservative college students, church groups, and deep-pocketed GOP contributors who will be inspired to "do something" to amend this great wrong.
They'll ignore the evidence about Freshwater's activities. In fact, they don't think he did anything wrong at all. Teaching Creationism/ID, claiming that homosexuality is a sin as part of your lesson plan, prayer in school; these are things the Christian Right thinks good teachers (public and private) are supposed to be doing.
We haven't heard the last of this cretin. The Christian Right will see to that.
Posted by: siefertma@wi.rr.com | June 22, 2008 3:40 PM
The funny thing is that this town is also home to a famous liberal arts college.
Kenyon College (where I'm just finishing up) is actually in Gambier, a few miles over. The reaction at Kenyon to this whole insane affair (among students, at least) was one of mute resignation to the backwardness of Mt. Vernon and a renewed desire to leave the county/state as soon as possible.
Posted by: Jeremy | June 22, 2008 3:48 PM
So a tip from an unknown psychic and they call in the protective service but this guy visibly harms a kid and it takes a lawsuit to get the authorities to act. Ain't religion grand.
A good lawyer should be able to get a couple of million out of this and not even have to open his briefcase.
Posted by: tsig | June 22, 2008 4:14 PM
I wish someone would tell me what is so humble about believing that the most powerful being in the universe thinks you're special. (Dutch Delight @ #11)
I've noticed that too, the absolute conviction that they themselves are the absolute center of a Supreme Being's universe, although initially in connection with something else: The efforts of the Discovery Institute and its minions to present ID as good science to people who wouldn't know the difference.
Now, you'd think anyone would wonder why the DI is trying to convince them, instead of working on actual scientists. But they're completely unamenable to this argument, because anyone who's sufficiently self-centered as to believe that they themselves, and their relationship to a deity, are the sole and entire point of all existence probably isn't even going to understand the question.
Posted by: Molly, NYC | June 22, 2008 4:40 PM
More disturbing than this religious nut is the support he gets from the community. Just imagine a society where religion once again had more power.
For a look back to when it did, see eg: Emmanuel Le Roy Ladurie: Montaillou, Penguin, 1990, or more comprehensively: Karlheinz Deschner: Kriminalgeschichte des Christentums.
Posted by: dubiquiabs | June 22, 2008 4:58 PM
#36, it's funny you should bring that story up. I told my father, an unabashed right-wing Catholic (i.e. he can make Mel Gibson and Bill Donahue look like Unitarians), for a laugh.
His response, entirely without irony: "This is what happens when you take God out of the schools. People who won't believe in God will believe in anything."
So... a teacher's assistant buying into a charlatan is irrational, BUT an invisible tyrant who lives in the sky is perfectly acceptable?
Posted by: Mark A. Siefert | June 22, 2008 5:05 PM
Regarding Kenyon College being in Gambier . . .
Gambier is about 4 miles east of Mt. Vernon proper. However, the Mt. Vernon School District actually includes Gambier itself (and even extends even farther out).
Mt. Vernon seems to be, from what I've seen (and I've been there quite a few times, visiting their library, for instance), a typical Ohio town—nothing overtly crazy. Historical note: it also has a few of Johnny Appleseed's original orchards.
Posted by: Ahcuah | June 22, 2008 5:14 PM
sarah, it shounds like Florida.
and Jojo did a great job of being a conservative, I applaud his effort (seriously I laughed really hard).
This same guy said he was only burning x's
Posted by: AndrewC | June 22, 2008 5:15 PM
So this guy is a science teacher, and he's been teaching creationism for years? Does anyone know what his qualifications are? Just wondering if he has a degree in science or if he's another of these science teachers with a degree in education and a minor in basketball or something.
Posted by: Albion | June 22, 2008 5:15 PM
Oh no, he retired. He was a beloved instructor and well-regarded by all his male students. The sports teams in particular idolized him.
He did try to 'marry' one of my multitude of cousins but another cousin, Special Forces, had a discussion.
Posted by: Mold | June 22, 2008 6:47 PM
Another problem with the school board's behaviour is that they spent taxpayers' money to hire some company (of private eyes?) to do the investigation of Freshwater. The investigation consisted of interviewing everyone involved - nothing beyond the capacity of the average school principal or an HR person.
I suspect the purpose of hiring the company was to justify their previous inaction. They can claim that they didn't know the full extent of the problems until getting this "unbiased report", but they did know they took immediate action.
We once had a somewhat similar case (minus the cross burning) here in Alberta. A popular teacher in a small town by the name of Eckville got away with teaching students that the Holocaust didn't happen for about 10 years. The teacher (James Keegstra) was also the mayor, which may have made it harder to challenge him.
I think eventually some parents read their kids' social studies notes and complained. Keegstra was tried and convicted under a rarely used law against "uttering hate propaganda."
A good number of his former students not only supported Keegstra but also stated their belief in what he'd taught them. Somebody donated some money to send some of his students to Germany to see the concentration camps. They went; I've forgotten what they had to say when they came back.
Posted by: plum grenville | June 22, 2008 7:19 PM
Maybe Freshwater can get a job as a tour guide in Ken Ham's creation theme park. He sounds eminently qualified.
Posted by: Wowbagger | June 22, 2008 8:00 PM
#45: And maybe he can open up a little side business in the gift shop, offering to burn crosses into visitor's skin for a nominal fee. Should be huge hit with the fundy clientele. Give 'em a little taste of what jebus suffered through.
Posted by: Larry | June 22, 2008 8:13 PM
@#45
Keegstra was also a Creationist (surprise surprise). He also told his students (he was a social studies teacher) that Evolution was false - must have made things difficult for the biology teacher.
Posted by: Militant Agnostic | June 22, 2008 8:36 PM
If the parents of the child he burned with his little electrical crucifix toy were to beat the living crap out of him, and I were called up for jury duty, let's just say that the prosecution would probably want to use one of their peremptory strikes to send me home.
-jcr
Posted by: John C. Randolph | June 22, 2008 8:51 PM
"Freshwater is presumably a member of a teacher's union. Might not be easy to entertain firing him until there's a lot of public support."
It will be easy.. as Freshwater will be doing 3-to-5 for child abuse.
You can't teach from prison.
Posted by: Stuart Weinstein | June 22, 2008 9:44 PM
@44
re: outside investigators, this is standard procedure. An outside investigation would presumably have no interest in the outcome of the findings; the school, however, would have a reason for not finding anything to be wrong. It is always a good idea to have outside investigators so that there is no "well, the school is just covering it up" excuse.
Posted by: Richard Wolford | June 22, 2008 10:11 PM
A felony conviction for assault on a student will take care of any interest a union might have in supporting Freshwater. However, I suspect that he won't have much problem getting a job at the Washed In The Blood Of The Lamb Evangelical Christian Academy or some such place. He'll probably be better qualified than many of the teachers at his new school. More's the pity.
Posted by: JoJo | June 22, 2008 10:21 PM
Question. Does anybody know WHY this guy was burning crosses
into his students arms?
Posted by: tresmal | June 22, 2008 11:38 PM
/Question. Does anybody know WHY this guy was burning crosses
into his students arms?/
Because the KKK has the monopoly on wooden crosses?
Posted by: jase | June 22, 2008 11:44 PM
I find the fact that the burned cross into the students skin healed after three weeks. At least that's what I read in a newspaper article.
Any one else find it ironic that the human body naturally fights off the symbol of the Christian God on it? (tongue in cheek)
Posted by: Kel | June 23, 2008 12:07 AM
RE #18
Does anyone else find this just a bit ironic? The so-called 'activists' also say:
Not exactly my idea of being an activist, which generally implies, you know, some sort of action...
Posted by: BellaB | June 23, 2008 1:03 AM
(Sorry for the long rant...) Here's the Minutemen United "Who We Are" page.
First off, it's dripping with militant Christianity. They have a logo that's a guy with a gun (a Minuteman, of course) looking on as the three crosses of Calvary loom over his shoulder (odd how that casts the Minuteman in a decidedly Roman-soldier-esque light.) They make numerous references to "battles" (such as "The Minutemen are a pro-active network of believers ready at a moment's notice to do battle for the cause of Christ") and paint their mission in war-like terms, with those who they disagree with as military adversaries (such as "America once again needs those who can be ready in a 'minute' to wage war against a culture of God-haters.")
This, if course, is not unusual. The militant talk comes right out of the Bible and is part of mainstream Christian rhetoric ("spiritual warfare", "onward Christian soldiers", Salvation Army, the "full armor of God", etc.) What's a bit sketchy is where they explicitly state that this is all metaphor and that they are really non-violent. Somehow it doesn't make me feel all that more comfortable about them:
The very fact that they need this sort of disclaimer suggest that they've encountered fellow travelers who want to take the metaphors literally. I've never seen any need for anything like that on the sites of secular advocates.
I recall a while back when P.Z. used some sort of language like "kick their butts" or something of similar tone referring to opposing Creationists or Christians or whatever group it was (I'm sure someone will provide a link), and the Dembski brigade pounced on it as proof that the evil Darwinists/Atheists are violent (due of course to the teachings of Darwin/lack of Jesus in their hearts). Yet we constantly hear militant language from Christians, and not just fringe groups. It's all very well and good for them to say "but we don't literally mean it," but when there are people who are totally immersed in a culture where everything is described in militaristic terms, where every day they go out to do "spiritual battle" in the "culture war", I can't help but wonder if this doesn't have an adverse effect on them.
It's well known that in these church/state issues that it's not exactly uncommon for death threats to be made against those who complain about the actions of Christians. The threats against Judge Jones come to mind, and that one 2006 case where a Jewish family in Delaware was practically run out of town for opposing school prayer. While the Christians who start these conflicts by imposing their religion through government (and who invariably are the sort of Christians who engage in militant rhetoric) can say "It's not us! We disclaim those people!" (or perhaps "Am I my brother's keeper?"), at some point they have to realize that they're not exactly helping the situation (unless violence is what they truly want.)
With the Freshwater incident, some of the apologists are asking why, if the cross burned into the student's arm was so bad, that it wasn't reported earlier. Well, the parents who reported it after Freshwater was already in the news said they feared their son would be harassed. Given the reaction thus far, and the teacher's association with groups like Minutemen United, I think their fears were warranted, especially if they had stuck their necks out alone.
Also, a bit of annoying irony on the M.U. page, one of their reports on Freshwater is titled "Winning thru intimidation", where they complain that they are being intimidated. After all, how can you not be intimidated when the ACLU has a disclaimer on its site about how any anti-Christian assassins carrying an ACLU card aren't really members... they do have that, don't they?
Posted by: jpf | June 23, 2008 1:06 AM
If they're truly 'soldiers of god' then we can defeat them with iron chariots...
Posted by: Wowbagger | June 23, 2008 1:24 AM
@ 56:
"God-given"? The constitution was the result of human creativity and hard work - it wasn't handed down on tablets of stone. If it were God-given, wouldn't it have more God in it?
Posted by: Moggie | June 23, 2008 2:01 AM
PZ, I think there might be some mischief going on in the comments on my Freshwater post -- the post you linked to above. Late yesterday, a commentator showed up going by the name of "Atheist". Yet, it turns out this guy smells of deception. He's been spouting talking points that could come straight from the Discovery Institute. Stuff like, "let's teach the controversy." So, while he's pretending to be an atheist and on "our side", so to speak, he's actually laying out the case for the "other side" -- the Freshwater side -- in this controversy.
I bring all this up because I'm getting vibes from this "Atheist" guy that he's much more than an amateur at this game. Perhaps I'm just being paranoid here, but I smell in this "Atheist" some kind of professional or near professional public relations person. Some kind of hired hand.
So I'm wondering if that's at all possible. Have you ever had cause to believe that, say, the Discovery Institute has ever pulled a trick like this before? I know for certain that this sort of dirty trick is played in politics these days, but I am ignorant of whether or not it's also being played in the creationism/evolution debate. Any ideas?
Posted by: Paul Sunstone | June 23, 2008 3:35 AM
I just revisited the Cafe Philos link and noticed that in that picture of Freshwater giving his speech, those people in the cross hats (officially available here) are representing Minutemen United... well, they are "wearing Minutemen United attire" at least. We won't know if they are actual Minutemen United representatives unless they engage in acts of violence, at which point we can determine that they are impostures.
That certainly puts me at ease.
Posted by: jpf | June 23, 2008 6:16 AM
Wait, doesn't our vast "big science" conspiracy keep nut jobs like this out of the classroom?
Posted by: Brian | June 23, 2008 6:40 AM
Here's some more on Minutemen United. Last year they were disrupting the services of a church for not being anti-homosexual. Apparently their leader, Dave Daubenmire, is "homo-nauseous." (And likes adding "homo-" to lots of nouns. My favorite: "TV and films are awash with homo-stars.")
Posted by: jpf | June 23, 2008 6:48 AM
Apparently their leader, Dave Daubenmire, is "homo-nauseous."
And he's obviously a fine specimen of the species homo religiostupidensis.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 23, 2008 6:52 AM
"Homo-nauseous"? Shouldn't that mean that anything that is similar to him, in some unspecified way, makes him sick? Well, I could certainly understand that!
Posted by: Nick Gotts | June 23, 2008 6:55 AM
Nick: keep your homo-logic to your homo-self!
Oh yeah, more from Daubenmire: "I'm on a manhunt" He wants men, lots of men! Men, men, men! Christian men out in the streets. Manly men, preferably in black robes.
Posted by: jpf | June 23, 2008 7:15 AM
I'm looking for some manly pastors.
If he's willing to visit the UK, he should try Gaydar! Apparently, no matter how specialised your requirements, that's the place to go.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | June 23, 2008 7:46 AM
Oh yeah, more from Daubenmire: "I'm on a manhunt" He wants men, lots of men! Men, men, men! Christian men out in the streets. Manly men, preferably in black robes.
Maybe he should go here.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 23, 2008 8:01 AM
Great. Now I'm going to have this stuck in my head all day:
http://youtube.com/watch?v=7TnpHjzjCmw
Thanks so much.
Posted by: SC | June 23, 2008 8:10 AM
After looking at the picture of the child's arm why was this guy not arrested for Assault and or Battery?? If my son came home with marks like that on his arm I would call the police and demand the person responsible be arrested.
Posted by: Jimm Sander | June 23, 2008 9:54 AM
I wrote Pam Schehl, the author of the Mount Vernon News story about this, and asked if she would do followups regarding the abuse issues.
She replied that Child Services was contacted, but they could not discuss anything because of Confidentiality laws. So I guess it's just wait and see if anything develops.
Posted by: celdd | June 23, 2008 10:05 AM
Freshwater can, no doubt, find future employment opportunities with Ken Ham.
Posted by: Senecasam | June 23, 2008 10:07 AM
To their credit, even most of the loons at RaptureReady are unwilling to back Freshwater up because of the arm burning routine.
Now, I was willing to consider that Freshwater was at least doing something relatively safe and short term, if good for an instant firing, with the cross-branding business, until I read the investigation report which included the facts that the electrostatic generating machine (or whatever its called) is something like 22 years old, he had no manual for it and had never bothered to look at the online manual the company makes available.
So, burning kids with an old machine that's been kicking around the school, is in who knows what kind of repair, and plugs into a wall-socket? Oh yeah, that's safe.
The man's a grinning goddidiot with no concern for his students safety.
Posted by: Bee | June 23, 2008 12:03 PM
Being a former Mt. Vernon
inmateresident, I can assure you that any one of a number of "Christian" private schools based on the "Bible" (wherever it's convenient to quote passages in order to force racist, discriminatory authoritary dogma on obedience students and their mamas) in the area won't hesitate to place the monster on its staff.Posted by: Annie | June 23, 2008 12:15 PM
Sorry, the bit about "branding" is bullshit. The device is harmless.
The single kid's parents who complained did so months later, saying their kid had pain the first night. But none of the other parents had a problem. Multiple kids volunteered for fun, after Freshwater demonstrated on himself. There were no welts but a marking that went away in a few weeks, not months. Finally, Freshwater did the demo every year (both himself and kid volunteers) for a long time and nobody objected. The school had to have known about it for years as well. Lack of objection indicates consent.
What's going on is that the school board needed to find something to beef up its excuses to fire him. The reason it wanted to fire him was his being a pain in the neck because he kept mentioning creationism in the classroom - although they had no complaints in his dossier, indicating if they told him to stop, it was only verbally.
I have no religious belief but think the religious should be tolerated. The board should have negotiated with this guy (over creationism), a 21-year teacher, rather than firing him.
Here's a document from the outside HR firm hired by the school board. I think it biased, but it's a start.
http://www.newarkadvocate.com/assets/pdf/BF111077620.PDF
http://www.dispatch.com/wwwexportcontent/sites/dispatch/local_news/stories/2008/06/19/Freshwater.pdf
The Tesla complaint is entirely bogus. Science teachers used to do that often decades ago. BFD.
The guy's being railroaded because he's a religious nutter. The board should have the honesty to say so and keep exaggerated "branding" accusations out of it.
Posted by: Atheist | June 23, 2008 8:45 PM
Sunstone, please cut out the unsubstantiated defamation. I have never heard of the Discovery Institute before looking at Freshwater articles and blogs the past day. You may have been the first to mention it.
Nor do I have much interest in it. I think creationism a myth. But so may be multiculturalism and liberalism and conservatvism and lots of beliefs, and the religious have a right to live. Crucifying (pun intended) a 21-year teacher for his quirks is idiotic.
We have to get along, and both the school board and the teacher should have found a compromise long before it got to the firing and lawsuit stage.
Oh, and if you cannot refute my arguments, then please pipe down rather than resorting to ad homs.
Posted by: Atheist | June 23, 2008 8:54 PM
"...fundies lie, lie and lie again to try and cover their asses"
covering their rears is a fundamental part of their religion, that's why they call them fundies! what is really odd is a fundie that doesn't lie. If they didn't lie, they couldn't get enough donations to support their life styles. Liers for Jesus is their motto!
Posted by: richCares | June 23, 2008 10:14 PM
Watching the Freshwater case has made me realise secularists lie as much as fundies.
Posted by: Atheist | June 23, 2008 10:35 PM
Athiest says "Watching the Freshwater case has made me realise secularists lie as much as fundies."
see what I mean, fundies lie, this fundie is no athiest, that'a his first lie, watch for more!
Posted by: richCares | June 23, 2008 10:44 PM
Atheist:
Hi! Welcome to the Internet.
What does that have to do with a public school teacher promoting sectarian religious beliefs in a science classroom?
Correct me if I'm wrong, but wasn't Freshwater warned about his behavior a number of times prior to this current situation?
I think Mary Kay Letourneau tried that defense too. Freshwater is an adult and should have known better than to misuse electrical equipment on students. Just because he can get kids to consent doesn't make things ok.
Posted by: jpf | June 24, 2008 12:43 AM
To (not a) Atheist:
You still need to read the actual findings. The incident with the branding was December 6 and the parents reported it the next day (page 9), not 6 months later. You've already been corrected on this once. Are you lying or do you have reason not to believe the report?
As I've stated on the other site-the report makes it clear that he hasn't been doing his job. That's it.
Posted by: Autonomous | June 24, 2008 3:38 AM
You knew it had to happen: Rapture Ready had to put their spin on it. Though, refreshingly, there are some who don't like what Freshwater did to the kid.
Posted by: Reynold Hall | June 24, 2008 5:21 AM
I just noticed the reason that just the one kid, out of a half-dozen every year for decade(s), had pain the one night after the marking.
The parents said the area got irritated by the kid's putting on (sports?) equipment right after the marking.
Well, if anyone's uncomfortable with the Tesla coil demo, then drop it. It's not essential. The teacher seems already to have agreed to drop the demo (even though it was permitted for decade(s)).
Argue the creationist/religious issue straightforwardly without making up bogus "branding" charges. That teaches the kids subterfuge, not honesty.
Worse, hyping up fake "branding" charges makes people suspicious about electricity. They're already suspicious about nuclear magnetic resonance and nuclear power and any science they don't understand. Why make it worse?
The teacher teaches religion. Debate that openly. But don't penalise science or the device or a harmless science demo.
Posted by: Atheist | June 24, 2008 6:53 AM
#79 JPF
Freshwater was never warned about the Tesla coil. He wasn't warned because for 11 (21?) years of using it there were no complaints. There were no complaints because the device is harmless. The only reason the one kid in decades had discomfort the one night, was because (as his parents said) he put equipment on, right after the marking, right over it, which irritated the area.
If his religiosity is a problem, argue about that. But don't make up bogus complaints.
LeTourneau is irrelevant. Different issue, different state, different laws.
#80 Autonomous
By accusing others of lying you just make yourself look bad. I read & posted the report various places over 24 hours ago. You just don't know how to read carefully - neither the report, nor my coments.
The first problem with the timing of the parents' complaint, is that it was to the school only, and was not so much about the demo as with feeling uncomfortable because taken by surprise.
The second problem about the parents' complaint is that to have any validity for "branding" or "child abuse" purposes it needed a medical exam immediately, documented, then a complaint to police on the basis of the medicine. That's standard procedure. The way it way done, and the timing, is improper procedure. Without the immediate police complaint, it's weak legally.
Also, part of the complaint should have been (was it?) the fact that the kid's discomfort came not from the marking but from putting equipment on over the marking. The parents admitted that later.
Finally, the problem of timing isn't so much the parents' as the school board's. By dragging out the marking matter 4 months later, the board makes clear it's just a subterfuge and their real