…and this is a 
Now I'm embarrassed
Category: Skepticism
Posted on: June 10, 2008 12:53 PM, by PZ Myers
Minnesota is a pretty darn good state, usually fairly progressive, but sometimes…sometimes it can plunge off the deep end into the credulous muck of woo. My state has just approved the title of doctor for naturopaths. I imagine the MDs are a bit aghast, and even us Ph.D.s are feeling a bit diminished.
It's also a law that was pushed by the Democratic-Farmer-Labor party. My party. Minnesota Democrats are responsible for elevating respect for quackery. I'm embarrassed by that, too.
If only I'd known, I would have proposed an alternative idea at the DFL caucus: we should ennoble naturopaths with an even older, distinguished title: "hedge-witch" or maybe "witch doctor". That last one has "doctor" in it, so it should be acceptable, right?
Comments
I see that Minnesota finally got over that "progressive" bias.
That's the spirit, counter progression with regression. And be proud to certify your witch doctors with the name "witch doctors", ya hear?
Told you that Minnesota would go downhill after I moved out of it.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | June 10, 2008 12:58 PM
I don't know why, but this article reminded me of a recent trip to Walgreen's. I have severe springtime allergies, and my usual OTC stuff just wasn't doing the trick. I was looking for something specifically for my nose, and while looking at a couple products and reading the labels for their actives, I actually came across a homeopathic nasal spray. The best part, this crap was $14.89. I'll go spray some tap water up my nose for free thank you very much.
Posted by: zer0 | June 10, 2008 1:04 PM
At today's health fair at work (a pharmaceutical company, no less!) there was booth for alternative and homeopathic medicine.
Posted by: paul lamb | June 10, 2008 1:07 PM
omlingalingalingalinga kilikilikili.
Posted by: alex | June 10, 2008 1:08 PM
Don't do that, you're likely to get a sinus infection.
Dissolve some salt in the water first, or buy some saline solution designed for squirting in the nose. Still cheaper than $14.89.
Posted by: ndt | June 10, 2008 1:12 PM
Maybe this serves as a form of (un)natural selection against stupid people?
Posted by: Kris | June 10, 2008 1:12 PM
Careful now. I'm an herb peddler. :)
Posted by: Patricia | June 10, 2008 1:13 PM
DFL'ers are subject to science stupidity, too. Last year when a bill was introduced to ban thimerasol from vaccines I actually had to contact a Republican lobbyist to help kill it. None of the DFL legistlature co-authors would even listen to me when I tried to contact them.
Posted by: Mike Haubrich, FCD | June 10, 2008 1:16 PM
It's no worse than a doctorate in divinity or theology - the study of invented nothings.
Posted by: Leukocyte | June 10, 2008 1:17 PM
Is civilization retrogressing? Before you know it, they will be confering doctorates for all sorts of weirdos and wackos. Ken Hambone will demand his rightful doctorate and be addressed as, Ken Hambone, DD Doctor of Dementia. And I'll bet those weirdos in Sedona, Arizona will apply en masse for all sorts of doctorates of wackeries. Crap, where the hell are we heading to: complete breakdown of the rational process?
Posted by: Holbach | June 10, 2008 1:18 PM
Egads, man! Giving these folks the title of "Doctor" is sort of like giving voting rights and driver's licenses to chimpanzees.
Posted by: Dan | June 10, 2008 1:18 PM
You know, I worked really fucking hard for my PhD. This pisses me off to no end.
Posted by: Richard Wolford | June 10, 2008 1:21 PM
I'm a legal assistant and deal with all sorts of legalish stuff. When can I start calling myself an attorney and finally get the professional respect I deserve?
Posted by: Saint Pudalia | June 10, 2008 1:26 PM
Dan,
Haven't you heard? Chimpanzees are people, too.
Court to decide if chimps are people, too
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/24878149/
Posted by: MikeD | June 10, 2008 1:31 PM
"It's blending the best of what we know in science with the best of what we know in natural medicine," said Leslie Vilensky
And why, exactly, must natural medicine be separate from science? If anything, they should be using science to prove the efficacy of natural medicine!
Posted by: John | June 10, 2008 1:32 PM
I once had a friend that told me she was accepted to medical school. I congratulated her and asked where to? It was some naturalpath school. I could hardly hold my mouth closed and I'm sure she got the point when my eyes buldged and I said nothing but 'oh' and walked off.
Posted by: Barklikeadog | June 10, 2008 1:34 PM
We quite honestly live in a political environment where being an intelligent elite is considered a *bad* thing. Our political discourse indicates that we think national policies should be decided by "regular folk" and not people with exceptional subject matter expertise. Might as well call homeopaths doctors. Hell, how about a homeopath for Surgeon General?
/disgust
Posted by: gex | June 10, 2008 1:36 PM
It applies only to graduates of "four year naturopathic medical schools." It terrifies me not only that people would be willing to attend such a thing, but that apparently so many want to that they can open the school. Or is it an internet correspondence course or something? What do you learn in "naturopathic medical schools?"
Posted by: Rob Adams | June 10, 2008 1:38 PM
What Richard Wolford said.
Posted by: SC | June 10, 2008 1:40 PM
I've said it before, and I'll keep saying it until everyone gets it: There's no such thing as "alternative medicine". If it works, it's medicine. If it doesn't, it isn't. Period.
Posted by: tsg | June 10, 2008 1:48 PM
That's it. I'm taking a leap off the nearest bridge. Life's just gotten too weird.
Don't worry. The nearest bridge goes above a little creek, and the water is only six inches deep. But, don't under estimate the message a couple of wet ankles can send.
Posted by: Dan | June 10, 2008 1:51 PM
Don't think we can give them hedge-witch or witch-doctor, at least not to any of them that practice homeopathy with all that water memory crap. Even the pagans I know and hang out with think those guys are full of crap. Sure, there are ones that do buy into that, but they're the minority, and when comparing percentages aren't much more than any other group would expect to have fall for it.
Outside of that, none of my pagan friends think that a massage or energy work can replace going to a real doctor, so none of the titles recommended really work out. My one friend did give a suggestion for a new title though, "Nuts."
Posted by: Felstatsu | June 10, 2008 1:57 PM
As a proud Minnesotan this makes me sad. We have what I think is a proud history of doing real science in this state, why did my party have to go and screw it up with this crap. What bugs me even more is that otherwise smart educated folk fall for this thinking that magents and accupressure and herbs are going to cure their cancer or fight off AIDS. JUST i MEAN GAHHHHH
Posted by: The Backpacker | June 10, 2008 1:57 PM
As an aerospace engineer, my pet peeve is maintenance personnel calling themselves 'engineers'. Sorry, there is a difference between the training required to patch up dry wall Vs. erecting a bridge. Or replacing the electrical outlets Vs. designing circuit boards. Etcetera, etcetera, etcetera...
Posted by: theGomezSymbol | June 10, 2008 2:02 PM
I think Alex clearly wins the comments today.
Posted by: Paul Lundgren | June 10, 2008 2:06 PM
Gotta quote the 'Mats here:
"Sanitation expert and a maintenance engineer,
Garbageman, janitor, and you, my dear,
A real union flight attendant, my oh my,
You ain't nothing but a waitress in the sky."
Posted by: Longtime Lurker | June 10, 2008 2:08 PM
#24 / I hear you! I work for a (real) engineering firm and it irritates me that the building maintenance guy who came by one day to install our kitchen's paper towel holder for the third time (he didn't know how to find the stud) has "engineer" in his title.
Posted by: Saint Pudalia | June 10, 2008 2:09 PM
Alex's comment is indeed funny but it was a little off. The real chant for fake medicine practitioners is
Omalingalingalinga a kili-ki, omalingalingalinga a kili-ki.
And then they finish with an "Oh please, oh please, please work, please work!"
Posted by: Felstatsu | June 10, 2008 2:11 PM
Which doctors are witch doctors?
Witch doctors are which doctors?
If anybody sees James Randi... tell him I'm still waiting for my money.
:)
Posted by: Scholar | June 10, 2008 2:20 PM
Before I call anyone doctor, I ask myself if I'd let this person administer a urethral swab. It's made for awkward relationships with physicists.
Posted by: Itzac | June 10, 2008 2:21 PM
Posted by: alex | June 10, 2008 2:22 PM
#28 Felstatsu - No it isn't it ends with, "And that will be $50. Cash only please."
Posted by: azqaz | June 10, 2008 2:23 PM
Nah, they never talk price until after the chant is done. The negative energy of the patient hearing "That'll be $200, cash only please" could interrupt the healing in its final stages.
Posted by: Felstatsu | June 10, 2008 2:27 PM
oh yeah. you can doctor my perceptions anytime :-)
Posted by: buck | June 10, 2008 2:28 PM
WTF is a Naturopath? I work in one of them New Age grocery store organic places (as a mechanic) and I never heard of a Naturopath.
Did they make that up for this title?
Herbal Medicine is obviously real, Cayenne is good for circulation and certain GI problems (Capstein), and Aloe Vera is awesome for sunburn. People may prefer to access these remedies directly from plants rather than extractions and there are arguments to be made in favor of that.
My favorite one is Coca, a perfectly good stimulant which displays properties promoting blood oxygenation.
Grind up the leaf, soak it ether to extract alkaloid, salt out with HCl, and wah Lah: Cocaine, a vicious and evil drug.
That's the 'Western' version, but this and other acid base extractions inevitably favor particular alkaloids over others. In this case you start with a leaf, containing many compounds, promotes circulation, and end up with a salt that is a vaso-constrictor, and promotes heart attack.
In any case all this is far from Homeopathy which is total bullshit.
So WTF is a Naturopath ?
Posted by: scooter | June 10, 2008 2:31 PM
I see where you're coming from, but I'd offer that it actually is a little worse, because no one looks to a Ph.D. for information directly relating to the maintenance and improvement of their health. This hurts the field of medicine - in my opinion - both specifically and generally. Specifically, more than a few states in actually allow these individuals to be licensed practitioners of medicine, which spells trouble for unsuspecting and otherwise gullible patients in those states. In a general sense, this just gives credibility to a field that shouldn't even exist - medical doctors have all the requisite knowledge of the body to be able to give the advice that these individuals will be meting out to the patients - with the added bonus that they also have the option of prescribing medicine, should the patient actually have a condition that necessitates it.
Again - I wasn't trying to nitpick or anything, but I do think that this poses an actual problem, for both the field of medicine as a whole and for individual patients who are susceptible to manipulation.
Posted by: brokenSoldier, OM | June 10, 2008 2:37 PM
Well, I've maintained a computer network for years. I change toner cartridges and even hack perl. I'm jealous of those Microsoft Certified Engineers. I figure, going by the naturopath standards that value life experiences, I deserve a Doctorate of Computerology, yes?
Posted by: "Doctor" Kermit | June 10, 2008 2:46 PM
Leukocyte @ # 9 More catch words that bespeak nonsense:
biblical scholar; holy city, holy man, very devout, deeply religious, the last two a state of extreme insanity.
Posted by: Holbach | June 10, 2008 2:47 PM
I'm not sure why you would keep using actual plants and herbs in medicine. There's no way to even check the dosage of the active ingredient for example. Now, if there were nothing else, sure, but i'd rather know that i'm only getting the active ingredients in the right dosage.
I know people like to whine about big pharma, but I would rather buy pills with known chemicals and dosage then some unidentifiable "chinese herbs" that might or might not do anything and go through less checks then normal food.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | June 10, 2008 2:48 PM
I'm rather amazed that it took so land, to be honest... considering all the combined lobbying efforts of the quackering nutrition supplement / Homeopath / et al...
Posted by: Charles Betz | June 10, 2008 2:54 PM
Careful now. I'm an herb peddler. :)
As am I, and I consider myself a doctor... in the vein of the good doctor, Raul Duke.
Posted by: Sarcastro | June 10, 2008 2:57 PM
Holbach, why is very devout a state of extreme insanity?
Sure in a religious context it is, but it can also just mean earnest or sincere, and I think I'd like my police to be very devout is their duties, along with real doctors and whatnot.
Posted by: Felstatsu | June 10, 2008 2:57 PM
#24
I'm a maintenance guy, and I agree, I refer to myself as 'the maintenance guy', my job description is 'maintenance'.
However, do not underestimate the maintenance guy, we have to fix everything you engineers fuck up.
Example from yesterday, Commercial Ice Machines use 400 dollars worth of filters, change every six months. I routed the Osmotic water supply to the ice machines to eliminate the filters.
PROBLEM: I had to call the factory: It turns out, he Osmotic water is too CLEAN for the electronic water sensor that the engineer designed, it can't 'see' the water in the reservoir, and the unit shuts down. Without a few trace minerals, the thing DOESN"T WORK. The factory is supposed to get back to me on that, but it costs us 500 a day.
So I took a length of bailing wire and submerged it in the reservoir, and grounded it.
Boom, the thing fired right up and the units are now running.
Wonder how long before that wire gets eaten up, it's lo grade steel.
A simple float shut down design would have sufficed.
Maintenance guys have love-hate relationships with engineers. We love you when you get it right, and we.... well you get the idea.
Posted by: scooter | June 10, 2008 2:58 PM
The sad fact is that a lot of people turn to this woo because they cannot afford real medical treatment due to lack of insurance or bad insurance coverage.
It's anecdotal, but my favorite bartender in Brooklyn related a horror story in which a friend of hers delayed treatment for melanoma (it progressed from blotch, to tumor, to thirteen tumors on lymph nodes) until he obtained a job with medical benefits.
Posted by: Longtime Lurker | June 10, 2008 3:00 PM
The licensure of N.D. follows the Northwestern College of Chiropractic (along with Southern California and National College in Chicago) metamorphosis into "holistic" alternative "medicine," as well as acupuncture, oriental herbalism, and physiotherapy. They license "psychologists" too, as "doctors."
In one sense, the devolution of the "subluxation syndrome" snake oil of chiropractic into the naturopathy of sun, light, air, colonics, hydrotherapy, electric shock, etc., should reveal just how antediluvian these purveyors of metaphysics are. Before chemistry was alchemy, before physics was astronomy, and before biology was numerology. Some people prefer the "old fashioned" astrology to astronomy, alchemy to chemistry, and Linnea's taxonomy to Darwinian evolution. It feels more "biblical," or "natural."
Physician and philosopher (the two senses of "doctor") are pretty clear cut which applies to which. A physician is a "doctor of medicine and osteopathy," and an expert in philosophy is any expert in the arts, sciences, mathematics, or philosophy.
The rest are pseudo-"doctors" or quacks. So why license them? Why give them "credibility?" To keep an eye on them, and hope some ethical standards can be used supervisorily.
Posted by: The Gay Species | June 10, 2008 3:03 PM
gex: We quite honestly live in a political environment where being an intelligent elite is considered a *bad* thing. Our political discourse indicates that we think national policies should be decided by "regular folk" and not people with exceptional subject matter expertise. Might as well call homeopaths doctors. Hell, how about a homeopath for Surgeon General?
It's usually not the "regular folk" that are pushing woo and paying big money to woomeisters, it's usually upper middle classes that have enough extra cash to spend. If insurance can't pay for it, then the "regular folk" tend to stay away. If insurance can pay for it, then all bets are off.
The tactic of one elite [politicians] dissing the competence of another elite is truly idiotic. Who would they rather have as quarterback - Peyton Manning or the second stringer at Central High School? If you want to watch a golfer, would you rather watch Tiger or Duffer Joe?
brokensoldier..,because no one looks to a Ph.D. for information directly relating to the maintenance and improvement of their health.
Exceptions:
If you're talking about nutrition and health, you're probably much better talking to a Nutrition PhD; if you're talking about exercise and health, you're probably better off talking to an Exercise Physiology PhD. There are some things most MDs don't do very well.
Posted by: natural cynic | June 10, 2008 3:08 PM
Felstatu @ 42 Of course I was speaking in the religious sense only; wasn't that obvious?
Posted by: Holbach | June 10, 2008 3:11 PM
It seems to me that the further one goes toward any political extreme, more more magical thinking one encounters. The right has the apocalypse, the left has peak oil. The right has Hagee and Robertson, the left has Chopra and Van Praagh. The right has back-woods survivalists with guns, the left has, er, back-woods survivalists . . . with Birkenstocks. Maybe its middle-age, but I'll take the middle way any day.
Posted by: Artoo45 | June 10, 2008 3:21 PM
This website should be of interest (read: amusement) for regular Pharyngula readers...
http://www.leviticus11.com/
(excerpt:)
"...The foundation of Leviticus11.com is found in the Bible in Chapter 11 of Leviticus (the Dietary Laws of the Mosaic Code) of the Old Testament or the Torah. That chapter tells us which animals are clean and which are unclean and that you should not eat unclean animals. This is a rule given to us to maintain good health, although not an admission ticket to heaven.
Health and strength are important to enjoy life and avoid living with chronic ailments for which most medical doctors will prescribe some form of medication that does not correct the cause of the problem. Leviticus11.com offers products that I have found can help others improve their own health and strength."
Posted by: JJR | June 10, 2008 3:23 PM
The Gay Species #45
"Before chemistry was alchemy, before physics was astronomy, and before biology was numerology"
I think you mean(t) astrology.
Posted by: mik espear | June 10, 2008 3:29 PM
I agree. I should have phrased that line differently. So this:
should have been written as this:
...because no one looks to a Ph.D. in divinity or theology for information directly relating to the maintenance and improvement of their health.
Posted by: brokenSoldier, OM | June 10, 2008 3:33 PM
@Kermit #37:
Those Microsoft certified guys are one of my pet peeves as well. I worked for two years at an IT company which wanted to expand into enterprise level consulting and design, a hefty upgrade from their typical level of clients. Since I've done this for a while, I was hired to lead up this new venture. The entire time I'm listening to people bitch about how I don't have any certifications and how hard they worked for theirs and blah blah blah; ignore the fact that these "engineers" weren't even impressive.
So, I opted to put a few of them in their place. I went and took 24 of the Microsoft exams without attending a single one of the Microsoft "classes"; I passed each one, first time, and earned every certification Microsoft had to offer.
It let's you know where people's priorities lie anyway. It shut up a bunch of people, and the company paid for the tests so I wasn't out anything, and it felt good to have yet one more thing to hold over the heads of the "engineers".
Posted by: Richard Wolford | June 10, 2008 3:34 PM
I looked at the website of the Association of Accredited Naturopathic Colleges (http://www.aanmc.org/) and found this:
Seems scientific to me.
Posted by: Gary Walsh | June 10, 2008 3:37 PM
Minnesota seems to have a history of this. Every health plan I've ever had here allowed patients to see a chiropractor without a referral. If you drive through the Twin Cities you see a LOT of chiropractor's offices. They seem to have a powerful lobbying group in this state.
Posted by: ndt | June 10, 2008 3:40 PM
# 24: As an aerospace engineer ...
How long is your choo-choo?
Posted by: Ron Sullivan | June 10, 2008 3:42 PM
Anyone want to help tackle vaccine opponents on my blog? I could use the help...
http://acandidworld.wordpress.com/2008/06/10/vaccineautism-alarmists-on-the-march-nyu-law/
Posted by: Ames | June 10, 2008 3:51 PM
TGS @ 45: So why license them? Why give them "credibility?" To keep an eye on them, and hope some ethical standards can be used supervisorily.
Also, because if you don't provide a path to licensure for these people you drive them underground and lose all control of the process, make criminals out of desperate people, cultivate contempt for the rule of law, etc.
Ultimately, this is one of the unpleasant consequences of freedom of belief.
Posted by: Bureacratus Minimis | June 10, 2008 3:51 PM
OT
Is anyone listening to Talk of the Nation on NPR? Lewis Black is answering questions about his deistic beliefs. I have just lost a ton of respect for him because he stated: "When you get out of here[some minimum belief in God] then Hitler makes sense" Fucking douchebag.
Posted by: Schmeer | June 10, 2008 3:54 PM
I'm somebody with a math background, and consider myself to be a skeptic. The foolishness with regards to homeopathy seems obvious to me, for instance. However the alarm bells don't ring as loudly with respect to naturopathic medicine. I'd like to know what the people making the jokes and sarcastic comments know. Could somebody please direct me towards a site or sites that have informative critiques of naturopathic medicine?
Is it a matter of naturopathic medicine being a complete write-off as a subject (like what I consider theology or homeopathy to be), or just that while there are valid aspects to its teachings, those areas already infringe on what is covered by "true experts" e.g. nutritionsists, doctors, etc?
The jokes are great for the people who already know everything about the subject, but not really helpful for those of us who have only a vague understanding.
Posted by: Simon | June 10, 2008 4:02 PM
I agree -- why the hell do MDs get to call themselves "doctors", anyway? :-)
Posted by: Tulse | June 10, 2008 4:04 PM
OK, before we jump all over this law, lets check what it actually says. Its available here: https://www.revisor.leg.state.mn.us/bin/bldbill.php?bill=S1520.2.html&session=ls85
As I read it, in exchange for registering with the state, maintaining proper records, and getting informed consent from their patients, in writing (including notice that the practicioner is a naturopath and not a MD) a graduate of accredited 4 year ND program (who therefore has a doctorate degree, albeit in woo) can practice naturopathic medicine as defined in the statute (which does not include prescription privileges) and call themselves a "registered naturopathic doctor," "naturopathic doctor," or "doctor of naturopathic medicine," without getting into trouble with the state Medical Board.
You all may argue that this is simply the thin edge of the wedge, but on its face, this doesnt strike me as that terrible.
Posted by: Dave | June 10, 2008 4:04 PM
@Tulse:
Why indeed! :)
Posted by: Richard Wolford | June 10, 2008 4:06 PM
You know more progressive pagans than I do. They think reiki is a good treatment for MS and have said things like, "Western medicine doesn't work at all."
Posted by: Chayanov | June 10, 2008 4:10 PM
Gary Walsh (#53) wrote that the following seems pretty scientific:
That may be the seem to be case until one considers that, in Indiana, Registered Nurses (Associates' Degree) are required to take ten semester credit hours just in human anatomy and physiology, four semester credit hours in microbiology, and three semester credit hours in pharmacology before they are permitted to even start nursing courses, much less their clinical rotations.
I'll match my students' knowledge to that of any "Doctor of Naturopathy."
fusilier
James 2:24
Posted by: fusilier | June 10, 2008 4:18 PM
I've never understood the general hatred of Chiropractors. What's "woo" about someone putting your skeleton back together properly after an accident or poorly taking care of yourself (slouching, lack of proper exercise, etc.)?
I've been to a couple myself, once at the direction of my primary physician after suffering from back problems for most of my life. Seems logical to me that if your spine (or whatever) is out of whack and causing you pain, having someone put it back together correctly is the sane, logical thing to do...
Posted by: Fedaykin | June 10, 2008 4:22 PM
Big pharma and big cosmetics are about to get us herb peddlers out of business shortly, so the whole subject may be pointless. We're going into organic egg peddling by fall. During the summer we sell produce at the Farmer's Market. The insurance we have to carry to peddle the herbs is VERY expensive.
Posted by: Patricia | June 10, 2008 4:28 PM
Seems scientific to me.
Just because they know those words doesn't mean that they understand them. I'd want to see textbooks, syllabi, and sample tests in each subject before declaring them to be scientific. Heck, the 'anatomy' class might spend two or three weeks on chi centers, another couple on subluxation effects, etc...
Posted by: Carlie | June 10, 2008 4:32 PM
The sad fact is that a lot of people turn to this woo because they cannot afford real medical treatment due to lack of insurance or bad insurance coverage.
Um, no. It's often just as expensive or more so. Not always, but often enough to make my head explode.
Saw an article in the NYT a couple months ago about an accupuncture alternative to botox. The victim, urr, patient complained that botox was scary and expensive, and had replaced their $2,000 botox treatment with a monthly $200 accupuncturist visit.
The stupid: it burns.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | June 10, 2008 4:39 PM
Fedaykin@65. If anyone actually manages to move your vertebrae, you're likely to be in serious trouble - possibly paralysed or even dead. And in fact, chiropractors sometimes do cause death or serious injury. See http://quackfiles.blogspot.com/2006/12/chiropractic-index-to-all-entries-here.html
Posted by: Nick Gotts | June 10, 2008 4:42 PM
No offense, Patricia, but surely if herbs actually work, actually have a biological effect on the body, then they should be treated just like pharmaceuticals, and those who produce them should bear the same liability as drug manufacturers.
Posted by: Tulse | June 10, 2008 4:42 PM
The Mayo Clinic has no problem with complementary medicine.
Get over yourselves.
Posted by: Brenda | June 10, 2008 4:46 PM
Or: cocaine, the first effective local anesthetic and necessary precondition to modern surgery. The fact that people abuse opiates doesn't make morphine "vicious and evil," does it?
Posted by: Djur | June 10, 2008 5:00 PM
Fedyakin,
Quackwatch has some good info, if you have the time and inclination to wade through it all, but they are pretty uniformly anti-chiropractic (suspected of being a mouthpiece for the AMA).
There are basically two schools of thought within chiropractic: "we fix backs" vs "subluxations are the root cause of all your medical problems."
The back fixers are generally OK, kind of like physical therapists.
The subluxations people are the woo-woos. Avoid at all costs.
And yes, there are bad outcomes with chiropractic treatment, just as there are with surgery and drugs.
Posted by: Bureaucratus Minimis | June 10, 2008 5:06 PM
The fact that woo has infiltrated academic medicine does not mean that woo works. All the endorsements in the world can't give water a homeopathic memory or magic an energy field into being for Therapeutic Touch hucksters to manipulate. Rather than saying anything about radical new principles of paranormal phenomena, these failures of integrity indicate that patients are willing to pay for bunkum, and somebody is always willing to sell them what they want.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | June 10, 2008 5:07 PM
Schmeer (#58),
Of course Hitler doesn't make sense in Judaism. He invalidated all their theology in under a decade.
Posted by: Lycosid | June 10, 2008 5:07 PM
Strangely, though, when I was a university student, it seemed like most of the "alternative medicine" advocates were politically liberal. Maybe that's changed since 1984, but I'm not convinced at all that it has.
Even Bill Maher is on the anti-vaccine wagon:
http://skeptico.blogs.com/skeptico/2005/12/drinking_the_an.html
Posted by: MikeM | June 10, 2008 5:10 PM
"Naturopathy" -- like all forms of So-Called Alternative Medicine (SCAM) -- is a mixed grab-bag of the reasonable with the unreasonable. The reasonable parts -- such as nutrition, exercise, or herbs which have successfully undergone scientific testing -- are already included in mainstream medicine, of course, so they act only as camouflage for the larger, unique part, which is dubious pseudoscience.
You can read up on it at
http://www.naturowatch.org/
As for chiropractry, one form has morphed itself into more or less standard physical therapy for the back. But, like naturopathy, the general area is grounded in a pre- and anti-scientific vitalism. All disease and illness is presumably caused by "subluxations" which inhibit the flow of life energy. Only straight chiropracters know this remarkable truth. All the other scientists are in a conspiracy to suppress it, since it would make people well, confirm the spiritual component, and thus confound and bruise the fragile egos of materialist intellectuals, who hate people.
Alternative Medicine and Creationism both share the same paranoid conspiracy mindset -- there are Important Science Truths that scientists want to suppress, or ignore. It takes brave, open-minded ordinary folks to figure things out. You don't need none of that fancy book larnin' neither. Science is really just looking at something yourself, and seeing if it works or makes sense.
God -- or Nature -- is on your side, and science has the Bad Guys.
Posted by: Sastra | June 10, 2008 5:11 PM
Brenda (#71) whined,
Hypothetically, if I called you a snobby, near-sighted boob, would you call me sexist....hypothetically?
Otherwise, take Blake Stacey's description (#74) to heart, please, because you have a huge soft spot for officiality in your arguments.
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | June 10, 2008 5:14 PM
The late John W. Campbell Jr. once wrote an editorial in which he proposed a rather interesting idea: Licensed quacks. Rather than suppress those people who want to treat patients with acupuncture, or homeopathic water, or funny noises, or whatever other weird-ass 'methodology', let them pony up a nominal fee to the State and do whatever they please. A licensed quack, in Campbell's proposal, would be completely immune from any and all malpractice liability. In return for this benefit, a licensed quack would have to (a) make it glaringly, obviously clear in all their advertising and publicity that they are not providing anything within spitting distance of conventional medicine (no fair pretending to be a real doctor!), (b) keep scientifically useful records on all their patients, and (c) make all of their records publicly available for real scientists and doctors to have a look at.
Basically, Campbell figured that as long as there are people who prefer quackery to real medicine, why not make use of them to get some hard data that really does distinguish honest-to-God quackery from effective treatments that just haven't yet been tested/proven by mainstream medicine?
To the person who asked why chiropractors attract so much venom: There is a certain subset of the chiropractic 'fraternity' which pushes their form of treatment as a cure for pretty much every illness you might possibly come down with. Those chiropractors who act with a full understanding of their discipline's limitations are basically 'collateral damage' of the disgust which their 'subluxated snake-oil salesmen' brethern have so rightly earned.
Posted by: Cubist@ao.com | June 10, 2008 5:16 PM
Fedaykin@65
Think about it. Vertebrae don't get dislocated, not without very dramatic effects. They aren't popping bones back into sockets.
What damage there is to bones, like arthritis or osteoporosis, you wouldn't expect manipulation to improve.
If they can imagine they are able to detect 'subluxations' in their whole body x-rays (!), they can imagine that they can fix them.
Benefits from going to a chiropractor?
Lots of sympathetic attention. It's the main advantage they have over a typical doctor. Also, they often have equivalent skills to a massage therapist. If you end up being convinced to maintain better posture and exercise appropriately, that might be the best thing they do for you.
Dangers? They may overlook a real problem while pushing their woo, which is not limited to chiropractics. They often carry other delusions, like homeopathy. And maybe you'll get a stroke from damage to your vertebral artery.
Posted by: JohnnieCanuck, FCD | June 10, 2008 5:21 PM
Posted by: Lurky | June 10, 2008 5:23 PM
Tulse - No offense taken. :) I agree that we should have to carry insurance to peddle herbs, I'm just like everyone else though, I love to bitch about the price. Most of our customers are what used to be called hippies.
Posted by: Patricia | June 10, 2008 5:29 PM
RE: Simon, #59
I live in Oregon where naturopathy and homeopathy are all over the place. It's seen as cool and part of being an Oregonian to be into these subjects. Here's a quote from the Chinese Medical school which is a part of Oregon's Natural College of Natural Medicine: "Cultivate respect for Oriental medicine as an independent science that has its own parameters and does not require validation by other scientific systems." http://www.ncnm.edu/admissions-home/chinese-medicine-program.php
If you pull up their academic criteria required for their doctoral ND program you see that A&P is not even a required course, it's suggested. The courses that are required are one or two levels of BASIC chemistry. I can't even apply to real med school without a full sequence of upper level chemistry (which may include a full sequence of lower) organic chemistry, biochemistry, let alone a full sequence of A&P and Micro, in addition to some private schools requiring a full year of upper level biology in addition to A&P.
Unless you were currently attending school it would be really difficult to ascertain this kind of info, but this is the kind of ignorance (no offense) homeopathy plays on in order to be seen on equal footing as other physicians. It is nearly identical to the same kind of parasitic leeching found in promoting intelligent design.
Posted by: Mike Spear | June 10, 2008 5:34 PM
Err "Natural College of Natural Medicine" is supposed to read National College of Natural Medicine.
I'm supposed to be studying for REAL finals!
Posted by: Mike Spear | June 10, 2008 5:37 PM
Why couldn't they use the existing title - shaman?
Posted by: True Bob | June 10, 2008 5:41 PM
"gex: We quite honestly live in a political environment where being an intelligent elite is considered a *bad* thing. Our political discourse indicates that we think national policies should be decided by "regular folk" and not people with exceptional subject matter expertise. Might as well call homeopaths doctors. Hell, how about a homeopath for Surgeon General?
It's usually not the "regular folk" that are pushing woo and paying big money to woomeisters, it's usually upper middle classes that have enough extra cash to spend. If insurance can't pay for it, then the "regular folk" tend to stay away. If insurance can pay for it, then all bets are off. "
I was commenting more on the idea that it is bad to be smart. And (upper) middle class people fall for this too. The idea that all those people who go to school (the MDs, the chemists, etc) to practice and extend modern medicine have no more credibility than a homeopath feels like an extension of this.
Posted by: gex | June 10, 2008 5:42 PM