…and this is a 
Quit stealing our mythology!
Category: Kooks
Posted on: June 1, 2008 4:25 PM, by PZ Myers
Those bastards — the Anglicans are trying to appropriate Dr Who.
A conference of Church of England vicars watched a handful of episodes from the sci-fi series to study its religious parallels, particularly its themes of evil, resurrection and redemption.
Similarities between the Doctor and Christ, as well as whether the evil Daleks are capable of changing, were also examined.
"There are countless examples of Christian symbolism in Doctor Who, which we can use to get across ideas that can otherwise be difficult to explain,'' The Sunday Telegraph in Britain quoted Andrew Wooding, a spokesman for conference organising group Church Army, as saying.
Grrr. Be done with it and simply declare that Jesus was a Time Lord, OK?
Comments
They're just jealous. The Doctor has come back from the dead 9 times. Their guy sorta managed it once, but he hasn't really done anything since.
Posted by: uknesvuinng | June 1, 2008 4:34 PM
Poor Lalla.
Posted by: danley | June 1, 2008 4:36 PM
I'd think that almost any sci-fi could be found to have appropriated a large number of religious themes, not just Xian ones.
In fact, it's one of the things that sort of annoys me about sci-fi. I'll take my myths straight, thank you, and weight them heavily toward the Greek.
I don't really know what these religionists want to do with Dr. Who. But just about any literary analyst would note the religious themes snuck into sci-fi. The writers typically are not all that imaginative, after all, and couldn't escape Western mythology if they even wanted to avoid using it.
Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | June 1, 2008 4:38 PM
DO NOT BLASPHEME! EXTERMINATE!
Posted by: MikeG | June 1, 2008 4:39 PM
Yup, Davies clearly wants it to be a religious program, which is why he's going to have Dawkins on. Yup yup.
Several of Tennant's lines this past season have actually been way anti-Christian in nature (unfortunately, I don't remember any of them), which made me wonder a bit, since Tennant is a Christian himself.
Posted by: Sage | June 1, 2008 4:39 PM
I suggest that the Borg offer more appropriate symbolism.
Posted by: PatrickHenry | June 1, 2008 4:40 PM
that's absurd. what do they hope to gain from that?
Posted by: alex | June 1, 2008 4:45 PM
All of the bible miracles were performed by Time Lords. We've already discussed how the Ark used TARDIS technology. Well, so is everything else in there. Prophecy? Hello, time travelers? Plagues in Egypt? Holograms, for the most part, with some biotech mixed in here and there. The darkness was an orbital shield.
The reason no-one has found archaeological evidence of the wandering in Sinai is because they're looking in the wrong strata. They escaped from Egypt in one era, and wandered in a very different one, perhaps the Eocene.
The thing is, both the Master and the Doctor performed actions that were mistaken by the ancient peoples as divine. Hence the strange inconsistencies and contradictions in God's nature. The Master really does threaten people with unending torment; the Doctor says everyone will be OK as long as everyone is nice to one another.
Posted by: Owlmirror | June 1, 2008 4:48 PM
And here I was, thinking that Jesus was a Highlander. Silly me.
Posted by: Mena | June 1, 2008 4:49 PM
So, these guys have made watching and discussing a nerd show part of their work description?
They rule.
Posted by: Andreas Johansson | June 1, 2008 4:55 PM
I used to watch Stargate SG-1 before it completely jumped the shark, and I was always waiting for the "Jesus was an Ancient" storyline, which I thought was inevitable but unfortunately never happened. The technology of the Ancients (which was sufficiently advanced to be indistinguishable from magic) fit nearly every aspect of Jesus mythology perfectly.
I strongly suspect that the Stargate writers based the Ancients on the Jesus myths, and may have gone so far as to consciously think that Jesus was an Ancient within the Stargate universe, even if they never came right out and said it.
Posted by: BoxerShorts | June 1, 2008 4:56 PM
Or could it be that most of Christian mythology is plagiarized from earlier pagan and pantheistic tales? :)
Posted by: Eric | June 1, 2008 4:57 PM
Well, a lot of recent Who has been awfully religiousy. On TWOP a term often used is 'SparklyJesusTen' for those moments. I mean, come on - think of that triumphant scene on the Valiant, with the Doctor rising from the almost-dead, light shooting out from all around him, arms stretched straight out to his sides as he floats upward - that's some serious appropriation of Christian symbols, there. Then there's this season, where he appears in the smoke and destruction, gleaming with a big halo of light, swooping down to save a Pompeiian family from certain death, thereby causing them to build a shrine to the god of the TARDIS. And I'm not talking about the episode where he goes to meet Satan, because in my mind THAT EPISODE NEVER HAPPENED and no one can convince me otherwise.
And if you switch to the spin-offs, the Abbaddon thing in Torchwood was pretty Bibleicious in nature. Heck, Jack has been Jesus more times than anyone can count, what with the temporarily killed trick he can do and how he keeps dying to save humanity and all.
If the church is noticing Christian symbolism in the Whoniverse, it ain't because they're making things up.
Posted by: Carlie | June 1, 2008 4:57 PM
Yes, folks, Christianity is the unforeseen result of a late night incident at a British Research Council lab which involved a particle accelerator, a tired post-doc and a hot cup of tea and which resulted in a portable DVD player, with the Season 3 Dr Who disk inside, being sent back in time to year 4 BC. The reputed appearance and disappearance of a Police Box outside the lab is wholly unrelated. The confused-looking gentleman wearing a bathrobe, holding a towel and asking if anyone had any tea is a totally different matter, of course.
Posted by: Konrad Talmont-Kaminski | June 1, 2008 5:01 PM
I thought it had been previously established that Jesus was a vampire.
Posted by: W L | June 1, 2008 5:08 PM
The actress in Doctor Who, Catherine Tate, is also a comedian. I highly recommend this YouTube video. The Doctor Who actor is an English teacher and Catherine Tate is his student. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WxB1gB6K-2A
Posted by: BobC | June 1, 2008 5:12 PM
Jesus was a Highlander
They do say that there can only be one...
Posted by: Michael I | June 1, 2008 5:13 PM
Well the current Archbishop of Canterbury did come out, before he was even the ABC but just the Archbishop of Wales, to say that the Simpsons was a religious parable. It was not, as some might expect, the Flanders family he held up as a model of Christian values but instead the Simpson family itself. He argued that despite Homer's apparent lack of concern, his liking for beer and his lazy attitude he was at heart a decent man who cared for his family. He indicated he found Ned Flanders to be something of a prick.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | June 1, 2008 5:13 PM
I always rather like Roger Zelazny's Lord of Light, which neatly incorporated hindu legends/supernaturals into a story of sufficiently advanced magic... His Victorian England cthulhu-like story in A Night in the Lonesome October is also brilliant.
Tom Holt's first(?) SF story, Expecting Someone Taller, had a fairly neat corruption of Norse mythology. He then recycled the basic plot numerous times, using different mythologies, but fortunately even he eventually got tired of the same old story and invented a new set of stories not built on mythologies.
I'm sure there are many other examples of non-abrahamic myths and legends "borrowed" for good (and bad) SF.
Two interesting attempts I vaguely recall which do use abrahamic stories was a novelisation of St Brendon's voyage (I cannot recall the authour or title, and I didn't particular like it (in fact, I don't recall even finishing it!)); and another one built around Columbus' first voyage---something along the lines of a magically-powered(?) ship carrying an assortment of characters including (for reasons I now cannot recall) some nuns from a Spanish(?) nunnery, sailing ahead of Columbus to save(? hide?) the last source of magic in the world. (Again, my memory on the author's name and novel's title fails me.) As I recall, it was quite well-written, and since the story was told from the viewpoint of one of the nuns, everything was viewed/told through the prism of her beliefs (and 15th century Spain).
The Turtle Moves!
Posted by: blf | June 1, 2008 5:13 PM
Frickin' morons. The thing they can't figure out is that ALL of the values and symbols of Christianity are deeper in human history and human nature than their silly late-comer religion.
Those aren't Christian symbols. They're archetypes from stories that were probably shared around campfires since the first stirrings of language -- a hundred times or more longer than that weenie Jesus Christ has been imagined.
But unfortunately, when your own little tribal stories are all you can be bothered to notice, EVERYTHING seems to be about YOU.
Posted by: Hank Fox | June 1, 2008 5:20 PM
I'm under the impression, though, that Russel T. Davies is an atheist. Ah yes:
"[R]eligion is banned on Platform One. Yes, I'm deeply atheist. If they haven't reached that point by the Year Five Billion, then I give up! When did the Doctor do that speech about believing in things that are invisible? It's Episode 5, isn't it? That's another bit of atheism chucked in. That's what I believe, so that's what you're going to get. Tough, really. To get rid of those so-called agendas, you've got to get rid of me."
Posted by: Ted D | June 1, 2008 5:29 PM
If you notice in fantasy literature, there aren't many different themes. It all comes back to "the hero carries a heavy burden, supported by friends," etc. That covers a lot of what's out there, from the Odessy to the Wizard of Oz to Lord of the Rings to Star Wars to Harry Potter. Sometimes the friends place less of a role, like in the story of Jesus or Alice in Wonderland, but there are still enough similarities.
It's no coincidence that Dr. Who or Harry Potter seem to have "christian themes." It's a common story.
Posted by: Pablo | June 1, 2008 5:32 PM
Why does it matter if the Daleks can change? As we learned in PZ's last blog post, God hates all sin, no matter how little. As long as they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and go to confession after exterminating, they should have no problem getting to heaven.
Posted by: Narc | June 1, 2008 5:34 PM
Get behind me, Turlough!
Posted by: arghous | June 1, 2008 5:35 PM
"And if you switch to the spin-offs, the Abbaddon thing in Torchwood was pretty Bibleicious in nature."
True, but they were also banging around the point in several episodes that there was practically nothing in the afterlife. I think Hank Fox hit the nail on the head. There's nothing in Christianity that hasn't been kicking around in other mythologies for millennia.
Posted by: deerjackal | June 1, 2008 5:35 PM
A Time Lord? No one reported hearing a whirr-whirrr sound at the crucifiction. Jesus is clearly an incarnation of Micheal Moorcock's Eternal Champion.
Posted by: Jim Lund | June 1, 2008 5:40 PM
If I take a dump and stare at it long enough, I too can draw parallels from of my poop.
Is it shaped like a question mark? Clearly it's addressing the existential nature of good and evil!
Full circle? Hey, too easy. That's the circle of life expressed through birth, death and re-birth.
Chunky bits? The Earth at Rapture +20 minutes.
Mellifluous diarrhea? An analogy of Joshua fighting the battle of Jericho.
Blows up the toilet? Sodom & Gomorrah.
Semi-digested corn? Clearly addressing the "leaders of the Seven Churches" from Revelations.
Why, I could probably go on for another foot...
Posted by: Moses | June 1, 2008 5:44 PM
This is the Church of England we're talking about here. They're wet as wet can be. They're the sort of church that when faced with a challenging view, goes 'oh, er, um' like a geriatric Hugh Grant and opens a village fete.
Anyway, I'm not sure David Tennant is a Christian. His dad was a Presbyterian minister, but DT seems to be quite coy about the matter when asked: http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2005/dec/11/bbc.broadcasting
It reads like someone who doesn't want to offend his dad to me, and his roles don't suggest someone with a strong religious faith. Presbyterians are not exactly down with homeosexuality; they're like US fundies, minus the 'fun'.
Moreover, he's pretty skeptical too. There's a radio show in the UK called chain reaction where the interviewee in one show becomes the interviewer in the next,. DT chose to interview Catherine Tate and royally ripped the piss out of the fact that she's into astrology.
For all of the Christian touchpoints, it's been explicitly stated the Earth is 4.5 billion years old and evolution is regularly cited positively. And let's not forget Russell T Davies, the man ultimately responsible for Doctor Who's current incarnation is very openly an atheist and likes playing with another man's dangly bits.
Mind you, that's precisely the sort of person they let in the Church of England these days.
Posted by: BaldySlaphead | June 1, 2008 5:48 PM
I can't believe no-one posted this link:
Home on the Strange
(and the next comic on continues the scene)
Posted by: Owlmirror | June 1, 2008 5:49 PM
Well, darlings, this is a dastardly act indeed, but take heart. Listen to what it's telling us: Christianity is so much on the ropes in Britain that they're having to filch from Doctor Who in a sad attempt to lure younger believers in. Christianity, in fact, is less relevant in people's lives than a science fiction show.
That actually just made my day. Oh, if I can only live long enough to see such times in America!
Posted by: Dana Hunter | June 1, 2008 5:52 PM
Dana, it is so in the UK, I am glad to report.
One Bishop has even had to resort to saying if too many people in the UK stop being Christian that means the Muslim fundamentalist will kill us all. Or something like that.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | June 1, 2008 5:55 PM
Heh, Joseph Campbell would have something to say about this.
One could say that the only difference between the writers of the Christian New Testament and the writers of Dr. Who is that for the former, we don't know who they are but we know they had a political agenda, and for the latter, we DO know who they are, and their political agenda (if any) is a little less blunt. Ok, considerably less blunt.
Posted by: Joe Shelby | June 1, 2008 5:56 PM
Don't forget that the previous Doctor, Christopher Ecclestone, played the second-come Jesus in a play by Russell T. Davies.
And anyway, Doctor Who is God - that's a given (the final two-parter of series 3 proved that).
And anyway anyway, the Anglicans are always appropriating popular culture in an attempt to pretend they aren't just the result of King Henry the Eighth's lascivious proclivities....
Posted by: PaulJ | June 1, 2008 6:14 PM
Von Däniken approves!
/me goes clean his keyboard
Posted by: slang | June 1, 2008 6:17 PM
Yeah, well. Honestly, RTD is to blame a little bit. Take "the satan pit". Of all the representations of evil they could have chosen, they picked the judeo-christian one. Lame. (It did happen, Carlie. And I'll never forget it). Not to mention the heavenly host on the Titanic. All that stuff.
On the other hand, people did complain about the heavenly host too. So, as long as they can't decide whether it's blasphemy or a witnessing tool, they're not going anywhere...
Thing is, many of these allusions work only because people are vaguely familiar with christianity thanks to that religion's influence in Europe's history. I'm pretty sure that if the major religion had been something else in the past few centuries, that's what Doctor Who writers would be alluding to. It's literature. Influential literature. If you don't know how to rip off old literature, you'll have a hard time writing good fantasy (Tolkien did it right, and look what happened).
Attempting to turn Doctor Who into a witnessing tool, though, is a feeble attempt at best. If they cling to minor stuff like this, they might as well try to use half of all books written in Europe, ever. In the end, they'll have to stick to the poorly-written crapola churned out by C.S. Lewis.
Although I am convinced that Rose Tyler is the Antichrist and the character's banishment should be permanent. So there.
Posted by: catta | June 1, 2008 6:25 PM
It's of course a given that Xianity (and Judaism) mostly reworked inherited mythic material--for the same reasons that sci-fi does.
Most of all, if Xianity didn't recapitulate Hellenistic myths (notably, the Dionysian ones), while at least echoing Jewish expectations, it would never have succeeded in converting many people. One simply has to play to one's audience, thus one writes of familiar themes.
Xianity had one advantage over the Dionysian mythos, however, which was that Jesus was supposed to have been witnessed being alive, after having been dead. Oddly for a purported empirical affair, the resurrection myth is rather confused and contradictory--but at least it was supposed to be true, not just a pretty story.
Reworking known myths is always an important component to the success of a popular tale. The ones that really make a lot of money at it are the religions, though, Xianity, Islam, and Mormonism, to pick some of the prominent ones.
Reinterpreting science as ritual and dictate worked pretty well for L. Ron Hubbard, to consider an inventive inversion of the traditional sci-fi reinterpretation of religion as hoped-for science.
Glen Davidson
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | June 1, 2008 6:39 PM
Jesus is clearly an incarnation of Michael Moorcock's Eternal Champion.
With the initials JC that makes him, like Jhary-a-Conel, the Eternal Sidekick.
Posted by: Zarquon | June 1, 2008 6:39 PM
I don't watch Dr. Who any more, I can't stomach it. All he is is a glorified tour guide anymore. There is no real science either, just magical science. The stories themselves are horribly grasping, pleading things, poorly written and poorly produced.
I suspect that there is a hidden agenda, it's an attempt to prop up mysticism, magical thinking, through a popular show. Torchwood is just as bad.
Here's a thought, how about a scientifically accurate character driven drama set sometime in the future? One that teaches a healthy skepticism towards received beliefs. It'll never happen.
Posted by: Brenda von Ahsen | June 1, 2008 7:12 PM
No.
NOnonononononono!
Dr. Who helped me become an atheist! There was always a scientific reason for bizarre phenomena and the Doctor ALWAYS encouraged questions.
They cannot have the Doctor. He stands for everything they despise: inquiry, independence and exploration. Not to mention humor and compassion.
Posted by: Amy | June 1, 2008 7:13 PM
But the two things the Doctor (at least the early ones) *hates* are superstition and close-mindedness.
I've considered Jesus might be a vampire, a schizophrenic, a meglamaniacal demigogue, an earnest social reformer, a terrorist, a myth, a clerical error, but I've never considered him a timelord. Neat idea.
Hmm, I won't hold my breath waiting for the episode but if the Doctor ever regenerates after being cruxified along with two thieves in Judea, that'd be a *heck* of an episode. Tennant should have insisted on that in his contract.
Posted by: woozy | June 1, 2008 7:38 PM
Presbyterians are not exactly down with homeosexuality; they're like US fundies, minus the 'fun'.
That's amusing to me, because in my little sect we used to think of Presbyterians as wanton heathen sinners in comparison to how you were supposed to act. Man, were we sheltered.
I suspect that there is a hidden agenda, it's an attempt to prop up mysticism, magical thinking, through a popular show.
Whaa? Are we watching the same show? I see it as a paean to humanism most of the time, since the superwonderfulness of human spirit is usually what saves the day. Otherwise, all of the weird things turn out to have totally natural explanations within the context of the show. Sure, aliens, but nothing mystical. Aliens are just another life form, so explanations involving them are, well, natural. Torchwood skirts closer to the supernatural line with the 'something's coming in the dark' business, but after the close of last season I'm not inclined to spend any energy on its defense anyway. (Damn you Torchwood for killing my Tosh!)
PaulJ, for the Eccleston thing were you thinking of The Second Coming? I didn't see it, but I read an extensive recap and it sounded really interesting.
The thing about Christianity really being deep themes of humanity that have come up over and over - Christians don't realize that. Most of them really have no clue that there are other, older myths and legends that have the exact same storylines, even the ones that have been through seminary and such who you would expect to know better.
Posted by: Carlie | June 1, 2008 7:41 PM
Chuckle. More evidence of the desperation seeping in to the British religious establishment. When you co-opt some lightweight sci-fi in the hope of hooking a few more gullible bums for the benches, you know times are tough.
I sometimes feel a twinge of sympathy for the poor old duffers. That soon passes.
Posted by: DavidONE | June 1, 2008 7:42 PM
I always thought this was a stupid argument, especially since Russell T. Davies is not only an atheist, but openly gay as well. Pretty much any time you see a priest on screen in the new series, you know they're going to turn out evil, look at the last episode with Agatha Christie. Instantly... I knew the priest done it. :)
Posted by: Cephus | June 1, 2008 7:57 PM
Are you a lungfish, or is your skeleton altogether cartilaginous? Or have I just once again way underestimated individual variation?
~:-|
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | June 1, 2008 8:14 PM
So it looks like being an Archbishop in England is no longer the career path it once was. What are they going to do when the shepherds in the pulpits (employees) outnumber the sheep in the pews (employers)?
Maybe they can put in some housing on their properties and get rent income. If they go with hereditary titles, it'll be just like the old days. If they are really lucky, they'll get to keep the tax free status.
You know, maybe atheism would now be more common in the US if there hadn't been that separation of church and state idea.
Posted by: JohnnieCanuck, FCD | June 1, 2008 8:19 PM
That's funny, I picked up on some pretty explicit religious references, symbolism, and imagery in the show as well. I actually found it kind of off-putting. There were several times in the new series (before I stopped watching the show, at any rate), where the Doctor specifically alluded to vaguely supernatural higher powers, and there was that whole episode predicated on the existence of a demonesque creature that was very classically devilish-looking. And let's not forget the Doctor's nearly constant references to the universe as "Creation," which damn near drove me out of my skull.
The funny thing is, between the insistence on correct action and the emphasis on fixing things and making them right, I had interpreted the religious references as being aimed toward Judaism.
Posted by: Interrobang | June 1, 2008 8:23 PM
Alex, Dana made the point best. "Doctor Who" is a show that now never leaves the Top 20. They're looking for a hook into the viewers of today. They'll appropriate anything they bloody well can, if it's more popular than their own stuff.
Remember, this is NOT the first time a UK church has tried this. Hit [ http://www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=65823&in_page_id=34 ], they tried to make the same crap fly in Cardiff.
[clip]
Fr Dean Atkins, youth officer with the Diocese of Llandaff and one of the organisers of the service, said: "The figure of Doctor Who is somebody who comes to save the world, almost a Messiah figure.
"In the series there are lots of references to salvation and the doctor being almost immortal. We are using the figure of Doctor Who as a parable of Christ.
"The language used in the series lends itself to exploring the Christian faith."
He added: "Christ is a kind of cosmic figure as well if you like, somebody who does not travel through time but all eternity is found in him.
"He is a kind of encapsulation of the beginning and the end, in fact he existed before time began and he will exist when time ends."
Parish priest Fr Ben Andrews said: "I love the series, and it has such a great following that we couldn't resist doing something for young people on a Doctor Who theme.
"Lots of people think that young people are the future of the Church.
"This kind of event will show they are part of the church of the present and have an important part to play in its future. We are building on the past but always looking forward."
[/clip]
Catta@35: Bad news, she's coming back.
Woozy, Amy, Brenda: remember that Who is written by many, many people. That's why the Third Doctor kept saying "there's no such thing as magic" and then somebody wrote the Seventh Doctor as advising Ace to draw a chalk circle for protection (to be fair, it WAS a Merlin/Arthur story and he was supposed to become Merlin).
Cephus and everybody else who referred to Russell T. Davies - remember that Davies is LEAVING soon, to be replaced by Steven Moffat (the guy who wrote the acclaimed "Empty Child"/"The Doctor Dances", "Blink", "Girl In The Fireplace" and "Silence In The Library"). Anybody know what Moffatt's theological leanings are? Looked, found nothing yet.
Posted by: Troff | June 1, 2008 8:25 PM
and there was that whole episode predicated on the existence of a demonesque creature that was very classically devilish-looking.
La la la la I CAN'T HEAR YOU IT DIDN'T HAPPEN.
Posted by: Carlie | June 1, 2008 8:25 PM
Cripes. This reminds me of an interview I heard the other day where a theologist was saying that the "search for ultimate truth" as seen in Battlestar Galactica was a *Christian* value. Sure, nobody valued truth until Jesus came along.
Posted by: Steve C | June 1, 2008 8:37 PM
#9
Mena, that would go against the doctrine of the Trinity. After all, there can be only one.
Posted by: Cafeeine | June 1, 2008 8:48 PM
The angels in the Titanic episode had a good reason to be there - it was a Christmas special, so there had to be some Christmas imagery, and they'd already done Santa and Christmas trees in previous years.
There were also the weeping angels in Blink, which behaved even less like traditional angels. I'm not sure if Steven Moffat* was trying to put kids off angels for life, but that episode could well have had that effect.
Anyway, you've got to bear in mind that all the Who writers are products of the British education system, and Christianity is definitely not excluded from schools here. I expect they can't help it seeping in.
* Who is a god, by the way. I've just been watching part one of his latest two-parter and I have not been as effectively creeped out, nor my mind as thoroughly screwed, since ... oh, since Blink was on.
Posted by: Selcaby | June 1, 2008 8:57 PM
Aside from religion, Doctor Who (the new series, that is) has always struck me as having an underlying left-wing political bias. Not surprising really, given that Russell T Davies (the series creator) is an outspoken anti-war leftist, and David Tennant is an active member of the Labour Party.
If you're interested in religious references in sci-fi, look at Battlestar Galactica. It's packed with references to Greco-Roman mythology and also to Mormonism ("Kobol" is the home of the gods in Battlestar Galactica; "Kolob" is "the star nearest to the celestial residence of God" in Mormon cosmology derived from the Book of Abraham).
To Amy at #39: They cannot have the Doctor. He stands for everything they despise: inquiry, independence and exploration. Not to mention humor and compassion. - Believe me, we theists (at least the sane kind) don't despise inquiry, independence and exploration, nor indeed humour and compassion. Indeed, compassion (in the form of charity etc) is a core value of most religions, to my knowledge. And just because Pat Robertson or Andrew Schlafly may not have much of a sense of humour doesn't mean that Jesus didn't. :-) (As you can tell, I'm no more keen on fundamentalists than you are.)
Posted by: Walton | June 1, 2008 8:58 PM
Oh, and Doctor Who's been ruined by the presence of Catherine Tate. :-(
Posted by: Walton | June 1, 2008 8:59 PM
I wonder if there were discussions like this all those years ago?:
"Those crazy Christians! Scheduling their prophet's feast day at the same time as our Winter Solstice festival - who's going to fall for that idea!?...."
Posted by: Charlie Foxtrot | June 1, 2008 9:15 PM
@11-
Actually, there was an early-season ep in Stargate that put forth the implication that Jesus was a Goa'uld. There was another mention somewhere in season five, but I can't place the reference...
At any rate, I don't think they were ever brave enough to really follow up on it.
Posted by: Cassidy | June 1, 2008 9:30 PM
What they seem to be saying is on par with claiming that because Monty Python made Life of Brian they were obviously all Xians as well.
I'm not as familiar with the new Dr Who (I've seen a few episodes, including Blink, which is arguably one of the best episodes of any show, ever) but the old Dr Who had a number of stories that point out that whenever people (or non-human creatures) that were worshipping something as a god they were usually wrong - it was either aliens or the effect of a device of some kind which turned out to be either alien or advanced-human built.
Basically, a lot of it was pointing out that there wasn't anything in the universe that wasn't able to be explained via science - albeit some pretty wacky science. Kind of the exact opposite of what many Xians (esp. the US fundy kind) think.
Oh, and someone mentioned Lalla (Mrs Dawkins) Ward; don't forget Douglas Adams (Dawkins' good friend and 'only convert') was a writer and script editor. They aren't many who could be described as 'more' atheist than DNA. I'd be tempted to punch anyone who dishonoured his name by claiming he held any religious beliefs.
Posted by: Wowbagger | June 1, 2008 9:31 PM
>A conference of Church of England vicars watched a handful of episodes from the sci-fi series to study its religious parallels, particularly its themes of evil, resurrection and redemption.
because we ALL know those themes NEVER occur in any other religions at all and xianity certainly never cribbed from other religions- especially Judaism.
Posted by: bbcaddict | June 1, 2008 9:44 PM
If you bugged out before the Ori arc, you missed them coming as close as they ever would to criticizing Jebus. Basically the Ori religion is evangelical Christianity on a crusade from another galaxy.
And Seasons 9 and 10 weren't bad. It helps if you think of it as its own spinoff.
Posted by: stogoe | June 1, 2008 9:51 PM
Works of fiction often share the same archetypes. Indeed, if I were to believe in a god, it would have to be quite a bit like the Doctor. However, the Doctor is always saying to use your mind, and not take anything at face value, and not to revere him. So even he says he's not a god.
Posted by: Icelander | June 1, 2008 10:02 PM
Am I the only one here who's never seen Dr. Who, and who isn't all that interested in SciFi?
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 1, 2008 10:13 PM
Well I like SciFi but I find Dr. Who too convoluted. 10 different Doctors and all, they just won't let it die.
Posted by: Dennis N | June 1, 2008 10:21 PM
Am I the only one here who's never seen Dr. Who, and who isn't all that interested in SciFi? - Posted by: MAJeff, OM
SciFi? Sir, your denegrate the medium with that label! You sicken me. ;)
Posted by: Eric Paulsen | June 1, 2008 10:27 PM
Re:#15
"Beware the Vampire Jesus! He gave his blood for you -- now he wants it back!"
Yep.
Posted by: CortxVortx | June 1, 2008 10:29 PM
Sir, your denegrate the medium with that label!
Not label, abbreviation.
If it ain't the Simpsons, it don't matter :)
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 1, 2008 10:34 PM
Grrr. Be done with it and simply declare that Jesus was a Time Lord, OK?
(cheerfully)
OK. Jesus was a Time Lord. And is a Time Lord. Or will be. That is the standard party line, after all. Though, I find that, right now, I often will be confused in the future about things that were, are and will be. Or so I seem to recall.
More directly, if Dr. Dawkins is married to a Time Lord's former 'companion', how can he be sure she isn't cheating on him, RIGHT NOW?
Posted by: Scott Hatfield, OM | June 1, 2008 10:49 PM
Zarquon @37:
Not necessarily. You also have Jeremiah Cornelius from the Cornelius Chronicles.
Posted by: cicely | June 1, 2008 10:55 PM
Of course Jesus was a Time Lord. He could multiply fishies, throw people into eternal torture, tell people they could move mountains and resist not evil and "anoint" their heads, and fly up in the cloudies like a birdie. Sounds like a Time Lord to me!
Posted by: 386sx | June 1, 2008 11:03 PM
Christians have been appropriating other cultures' mythologies since they started their racket. Nuttin' new here.
But as a former Anglican, I do have certain fondness for the cult, so I don't mind an injection or two of sci-fi into their thinking.
Posted by: Stephen D. Moore | June 1, 2008 11:25 PM
Memo to Anglican Church:
STOP TEABAGGING MY CHILDHOOD.
My apologies for the obscenity. Oh yeah. Tom Baker's an atheist, too.
Posted by: Scrabcake | June 1, 2008 11:38 PM
Moses @27...
One time my poop came out like an ampersand with an umlaut.
Should I stop eating that home cookin', or just get a checkup?
Posted by: BobbyEarle | June 1, 2008 11:56 PM
@#56 Wowbagger --
This was also a fairly common theme in the original Star Trek series (Return of the Archons, The Apple, Who Mourns for Adonais, etc). Moral of the story: if you think it's a God, chances are it's really an alien/computer -- and Prime Directive be damned, we should kill it!
Posted by: Etha Williams | June 2, 2008 12:19 AM
Etha Williams (#71):
The same thing also happened in Star Trek: TNG now and again. "Devil's Due", the episode where a con woman claims to be an ancient supernatural being come to collect on the contract a whole planet effectively signed in blood, springs to mind. And, of course, Q was basically Puck writ large.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | June 2, 2008 12:24 AM
@#72 Blake Stacey --
I'd forgotten about Devil's Due! There was also "Who Watches the Watchers," in which that whole planet, which had been under discreet (and later not-so-discreet) anthropological observation, starts worshipping "The Picard" just because the Federation is so much more technologically advanced. Picard went on a rather good polemic against religion in that one, IIRC.
Posted by: Etha Williams | June 2, 2008 12:30 AM
Walton@52:
IO9 did a quick study of the Doctor's political activities: http://io9.com/338332/doctor-who-revolutionary-or-tool-of-the-man .
Turns out he's arch-conservative in "the Present". Anywhere outside "the Present" and on Earth, he's much better at overthrowing governments.
[clip]
Also, the Doctor acted out way more during the Thatcher era than any other period. During the Blair/Gordon Brown eras, he's been quite well-behaved.
[/clip]
Etha@71: Gene Roddenberry was an atheist too, if I recall correctly.
MAJeff: ... I'm stunned, that's so sad.
Dennis N: Wrong end of the stick. Other people want it dead, and they still fail to kill it.
Posted by: Troff | June 2, 2008 12:37 AM
Etha #71
I'm not very familiar with Star Trek, but the more I think about it the more I remember how common this theme is in Dr Who.
What I also recall is that quite often there beings who are posing as the agents of the 'gods', and they are eventually revealed as frauds and punished - or accidentally killed when it all goes wrong in some huge explosion.
Maybe there's something in that for the church to consider...
Posted by: Wowbagger | June 2, 2008 12:46 AM
@#74 Troff --
Yes, Gene Roddenberry was rather harsh on the subject of religion:
Also, GR on Judeo-Xian belief from a story-teller's POV:
Posted by: Etha Williams | June 2, 2008 12:53 AM
Aren't we all forgetting there's already a religion started by a sci-fi writer? A hack sci-fi writer, but a sci-fi writer nonetheless.
Stop trying to muscle in, Xians! If you'd started off claiming Jesus was an alien then perhaps Tom Cruise and co. would be pushing bibles and not e-meters.
Posted by: Wowbagger | June 2, 2008 1:04 AM
Hmmm. And perhaps it's just that Christianity/Gilgamesh/Harry Potter/etc. reflect some basic HUMAN mythos. You think?
Posted by: Leigh | June 2, 2008 2:50 AM
Some folks here like to block it out, but I thought the 'Satan Pit' deliciously blasphemous. It's one of my favourite stories (after all of Moffat's scripts, of course). There was some interesting religious chat in there between the Doctor and Ida Scott. And the 'Devil' was portrayed as some ancient entity from before the creation of our universe (from the remnant of a previous universe?). The Doctor was quite agitated as he rationalized the physical existence of the beast while denying that it was supernatural. The episode suggested the creature's malevolence psychically echoes across the universe and lives on in the race memories of many species. So long as you buy the notion of psychic power--an old SF trope--this is a great way of denying the Devil's supernaturalism.
More offensive was the Messianic renewal of the Doctor at the end of last season, which was explained away with some psychic mumbo-jumbo, but still came down to people believing in Him.
The current Moffat story is superb, by the way. Lots of great ideas, and it has Talulah Riley (yum) and a Zombie called 'Proper Dave'.
The person who dissed Cat Tate should take another look. I love her to bits. It's nice to have a companion who can (a) act and (b) does not look cow-eyed at Tennant.
Oh, and my claim to fame is that David Tennant once played me in a Doctor Who audio play. No, really. Check out 'Sympathy For the Devil' at the Big Finish website.
http://www.bigfinish.com/2-Doctor-Who-Unbound-Sympathy-for-the-Devil
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | June 2, 2008 3:07 AM
@ Carlie (#13)
Jack was buried at around the time of Jesus's death (27 AD). WHY RUSSEL, WHYY. Stop hammering Jesus-Jack/Jesus-Doctor into our heads every season!
For an atheist, he's too fond of incorporating Christian mythology even where it seems sorta pointless. Not that there aren't places where such a thing can have very good points. That reminds me, I still haven't seen his The Second Coming mini-drama.
@ Walton (#53)
Hey! No. She's awesome. We FINALLY get a new-series companion who DOESN'T fancy the Doctor, and it's long overdue!
Viva la non-romantic Friendship!
Rose - Loved the Doctor to bits, who also loved her.
(Reinette - Loved the doctor, who also loved her)
Jack - Loved the Doctor, who loved him only as a good friend (as far as we know, though there are plenty of slashers who claim I'm terribly wrong).
Martha - Loved the Doctor, who loved her only as a good friend.
(Kylie = Rose/Reinette #2. It's official, Ten has a huge thing for blondes. God riddance, Kylie, alas. Never thought I'd be glad to get rid of her. Damn you, Russel!)
Whatshername in the latest episode - Obviously loves the doctor, who is clearly loved by the future doctor, however not conclusive whether the Doctor loves her in a romantic way or not (though seems pretty likely).
@ MAJeff (#60)
Technically, Dr Who is Sci-Fantasy. Like H2G2, only more schizo (ironically enough).
Posted by: Rrr | June 2, 2008 4:21 AM
BTW - in the recent episode where the Doctor has a "daughter", how many other people picked up on the reference that the world where it all happened was only seven days old?
Posted by: paulh | June 2, 2008 5:14 AM
Bit late to this thread but to blf #19: That story you describe sounds to me like the short story Sail on! Sail On! by Philip Jose Farmer.
Posted by: Elwood Herring | June 2, 2008 5:35 AM