Pharyngula

Can this possibly get more insane?

The Catholic League has issued another press release. In addition to disparaging the theory of evolution as the “King Kong Theory of Creation” (which is a bit peculiar, since Catholicism does not take a stand against evolution), he accuses me and my ilk (that’s you, fair readers) of hysteria while making this hysterical declaration:

As a result of the hysteria that Myers’ ilk have promoted, at least one public official is taking it seriously. Thomas E. Foley is chairman of Virginia’s First Congressional District Republican Committee, a delegate to the Republican National Convention and one of two Republican at large nominees for Virginia’s Electoral College. His concern is for the safety of Catholics attending this year’s Republican National Convention in Minneapolis, Myers’ backyard. Accordingly, Foley has asked the top GOP brass to provide additional security while in the Twin Cities so that Catholics can worship without fear of violence. Given the vitriol we have experienced for simply exercising our First Amendment right to freedom of speech, we support Foley’s request.

They are increasing security at the Republican convention out of fear of ME? I am puissant. Fear me, O Trembling Republicans. A flick of my wrist, and cathedrals tumble to the earth; a nod of my head, and heathen legions rise up and swarm like flesh-eating locusts over the faithful.

Hah.

The remark about my backyard is amusing — Minneapolis is 150 miles away. It’s also more towards one side of my house; I think Iowa would be my backyard, while Canada is my front yard. I sure hope I don’t get assessed for property taxes on the entire upper midwest.

Comments

  1. #1 Alex
    July 11, 2008

    Yes first comment!

  2. #2 Jackal
    July 11, 2008

    Let me get this straight: they’re the ones making death threats, and now they’re asking for extra protection from us?

  3. #3 Anonymous
    July 11, 2008

    Epic troll is epic.

  4. #4 ERV
    July 11, 2008

    So… Now we just have to wait for your next post from the Minneapolis Apple Store about how you tried to crash the RNC, and they stopped you, but let Richard Dawkins in.

  5. #5 Celtic_Evolution
    July 11, 2008

    This is an old christian trick. Feign persecution. Plea for public protection. Garner sympathy. Use the whole invented premise as a basis for future claims of persecution.

    Honestly… at this point in history, is there an organization less in need of protection for and more in need of proteciton from?

  6. #6 David
    July 11, 2008

    Anything that stimulates them to waste resources is fine by me

  7. #7 Jason
    July 11, 2008

    Especially ironic considering they’re the ones sending death threats…

  8. #8 Vaal
    July 11, 2008

    Ah, they are on the run! :))

  9. #9 Barry
    July 11, 2008

    Ok, now we’re WAY past just being ridiculous.

    Looking forward to further developments, PZ.

  10. #10 Kseniya
    July 11, 2008

    Yes. This can get more insane.

  11. #11 idahogie
    July 11, 2008

    Maybe they’ll have to redeploy some National Guard troops from Iraq. This could be a good thing.

  12. #12 Lord Zero
    July 11, 2008

    PZ, its unbelieable… why the person who receives
    death threaths from christians its the dangerous individual ?
    Those crazy fools are really fearful.
    Again, im lucky for not living in the states, they would
    have me trialed in court for something like this.

  13. #13 ThePetey
    July 11, 2008

    ummm,

    wasn’t it the CATHOLICS making the threats of violence and us just making fun of them?????

  14. #14 craig
    July 11, 2008

    They live for this kind of crap. Their followers (the GOP masses, not just the Catholic ones) will eat this up.

    They’ll get all damp in their knickers with glee at the thought that they need extra protection… their little martyr complexes will be quaking with delight.

    Ya know, I think there may be some kind of connection between the theater of church, the political theater, and the security theater they’ve been putting on.

    Is there a way in which the wands waved at my genitals in the airport serve these people mentally as a kind of religious incantation?

  15. #15 Curtis
    July 11, 2008

    It’s projection. They’d burn us all at the stake if they could so they assume PZ, and anyone with a functioning brain, would do the same.

  16. #16 Ken Cope
    July 11, 2008

    It cannot possibly be any less insane, more insane is the only available direction, as stasis is out of the question.

  17. #17 Ben
    July 11, 2008

    Haha, seriously though, don’t joke about how dangerous you are. They mightn’t pick up on the irony and the next press release will be about your use of the crazy theory of evolution to train flesh eating locusts to attack only Catholics.

  18. #18 Lana
    July 11, 2008

    This is unbelievable. Catholics are physically afraid of you? No offense, P.Z., but you appear to be a mild-mannered fellow who was more likely the stuffee than the stuffer in high school locker rooms. Again, no offense. Lots of us women are happier having ended up with the stuffee.

  19. #19 Drew
    July 11, 2008

    The thing that bothers me about this is that it’s kinda hard to argue that the Catholic Church is not the single most powerful organization on earth. There’s real evil out there, and frankly, the Catholics could do something about it.

    And what’s the hill they choose to die on? Desecrating a cracker.

  20. “…he accuses me and my ilk (that’s you, fair readers) of hysteria…”

    Actually, I believe he’s accusing us of promoting THEIR hysteria. [If I'm reading it correctly.]

  21. #21 gdlchmst
    July 11, 2008

    I am so tempted to give them what they fear.

  22. “…he accuses me and my ilk (that’s you, fair readers) of hysteria…”

    Actually, I believe he’s accusing us of promoting THEIR hysteria. [If I'm reading it correctly.]

  23. #23 Terrellk
    July 11, 2008

    PZ when you come to Atlanta on Saturday we have to have Crackers with our beer!! Ha Crackers in Georgia, that’s funny on so many levels.

  24. #24 Lord Zero
    July 11, 2008

    They are sure than its a fight to death… and the
    first to strike wins. Its pure fear. Fear of reason,
    fear of reality itself.

  25. #25 Phil Doubet
    July 11, 2008

    Oddly enough, I have been collecting consecrated hosts for the past month in preparation for an Op-Ed piece I was going to write. I had thought about making them into a meatloaf (using hosts in place of breadcrumbs), but now I think I will save them for something better.

    Anybody want to go for a ride?????

  26. #26 BadMA
    July 11, 2008

    Don’t forget the incident that started this. The guy who so callously smuggled a sacred cracker from a Catholic church returned it because he had been threatened. I think they’re just trying to take some of the heat off of themselves. I thought Catholics had tacitly admitted that it was really just a cracker centuries ago, but kept the tradition because it was, well, tradition.

  27. #27 Damian
    July 11, 2008

    Could these a-holes be any more dishonest?

    Oh well, I guess that we are going to have to see this one through now, no matter how bad it gets. ;-)

    With pleasure, I say.

  28. #28 Mark
    July 11, 2008

    “Oh, HALP! The Atheist Octopoctowockles gots me! HALP! Won’t SOMEBODY SAVE me?”

  29. #29 Rando
    July 11, 2008

    Good god. Can Bill Donohue become anymore detached from reality?

  30. #30 Marcus Ranum
    July 11, 2008

    Oh NOES! Iz teh famulus “squeal like a pig” strategee!!!!! Onwardz, catholic bitchez!

  31. #31 room101
    July 11, 2008

    Lord Zero #12 said:
    “PZ, its unbelieable… why the person who receives
    death threaths from christians its the dangerous individual ?”

    Well, PZ DID threaten to do harm to a cracker after all, which, according to them, is much, MUCH worse…

  32. #32 Ken Cope
    July 11, 2008

    Now that it’s part of the GOP platform, there is only one place this can end up on such a trajectory. The event that is now inevitable is for Barack Obama to make an address at a Catholic University, formally denouncing PZ Myers, and especially his inky ilk. I’m afraid there’s a bus’s underside in your future, PZ.

  33. #33 Kristin
    July 11, 2008

    since when are we violent?

  34. #34 Bob Prager
    July 11, 2008

    As an RC myself, I thought PZ’s remarks were a little over the top — but doggonit! It’s his right to say it!

    By the way, please don’t destroy the cathedral in St Paul — it’s a beautiful building, and a rather nice landmark!
    ;-)

  35. #35 Carlie
    July 11, 2008

    Wow. With this on top of the movie ruckus, the Minneapolis police are going to get darned sick of protecting the public from you, PZ. I think it would be awesome if you went to the convention and just stood outside the door for awhile, doing nothing.

  36. #36 kcrady
    July 11, 2008

    Emailed:

    Dear Mr. Bruininks:

    While I am aware that many will find P.Z. Myers’ proposal to desecrate a Eucharist wafer shocking and offensive, I think that the people least entitled to outrage–much less threats of violence and demands for censorship of Dr. Myers–are those who worship the wafer as the transubstantiated flesh of Jesus. The “Judeo-Christian tradition” has a long history of desecrating and destroying the sacred sites and relics of other religions, going back to before there was a “Christian” to add after the hyphen. The Hebrew Bible is replete with instructions to destroy the transubstantiated statues (“idols”) that embodied the deities of other religions, murder their clergy and burn their bodies on their own altars. Bill Donahue’s church has sanctioned the destruction of incalculable amounts of priceless religious artwork belonging to other faiths, destruction of their temples and the construction of Catholic churches atop the ruins. The Roman Catholic Church destroyed nearly all of the books of the pre-Columbian civilizations, defaced the majestic temples of the Egyptians, and destroyed much of the religious, scientific, and philosophical inheritance of the Greco-Roman world. They made a saint out of the man who murdered the last Librarian of Alexandria and burned down the Library itself.

    In comparison, P.Z. Myers has proposed the public desecration of a cracker that can be bought in bulk for a pittance, a “crime” for which he has been threatened with physical attack, in addition to an organized campaign to deprive him of his economic livelihood. A Eucharist wafer is not a priceless work of art or literature. It is “special” only because of a magic spell cast upon it by a Catholic priest.

    P.Z. Myers has become an internationally known, prominent spokesman for science and critical thought in the same league with Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, and Neil deGrasse Tyson. In addition to defending science against the onslaught of creationism, alternative “medicine” and other superstitions, Professor Myers also provides fascinating informative content, such as explanations of syenteny, the groundbreaking research of Dr. Lenski on evolution in E. Coli, and regular explorations into the mystery and wonder of cephalopods. Any university in the world could be proud to count P.Z. Myers as a member of its faculty.

    In this current controversy, P.Z. Myers has had the courage to take a stand against forces of intolerance continuing their own tradition of using violence against those who disagree with them. In this case, Professor Myers is publicly standing up to defend an otherwise voiceless student who simply kept something that was freely given to him in the first place. You can know that if any force of organized ignorance were ever to threaten your University, that you can count on Professor Myers to have the physical courage to put his own person on the line in defense of reason and free inquiry. That alone ought to stand as a shining example of excellence in a member of your faculty.

    Thank you for your attention.

    Yours sincerely,

    (Real name, address, and phone number)

  37. #37 Ron
    July 11, 2008

    I went to the link you provided. Did the university actually remove the link to your blog because of the hysteria of these guys?

  38. #38 pbnj
    July 11, 2008

    PZ, did you know the university is removing links to your blog from their website?

  39. #39 Chayanov
    July 11, 2008

    Oh those poor persecuted Catholics in Saint Paul. How will they ever manage the few blocks from the Xcel Center to the Saint Paul Cathedral without being killed by atheists?

    What? It’s the Catholics who were threatening to kill atheists? Oh, never mind then.

  40. #40 BobC
    July 11, 2008

    Catholics and Christians like to feel persecuted for some reason. Who can understand the minds of idiots?

  41. #41 Nathaniel
    July 11, 2008

    “Let me get this straight: they’re the ones making death threats, and now they’re asking for extra protection from us?”

    Yes. Trying to quote Douglas Adams from memory…

    “All civilizations go through three stages:

    Retribution:
    I’m going to kill you because you killed my brother.

    Anticipation:
    I’m going to kill you because I killed YOUR brother.

    Diplomacy:
    I’m going to kill my brother and then kill you on the pretext that your brother did it.

  42. #42 James F
    July 11, 2008

    In summary:

    1) Webster Cook shouldn’t have taken the host without asking.
    2) The diocese has a right to be upset and take action over the theft.
    3) Extreme reactions like death threats against Cook are completely unacceptable.
    4) PZ has a right to mock the whole situation.
    5) People have a right to be offended by PZ’s comments and say so.
    6) Donohue is blowing the whole thing out of proportion.

  43. “…disparaging the theory of evolution as the “King Kong Theory of Creation” (which is a bit peculiar, since Catholicism does not take a stand against evolution)…”

    It was my understanding that The Catholic League is not affiliated with the official Catholic church based in Rome, Italy. And I get the feeling they don’t want to be.

    For the record, I have contempt for both.

  44. #44 The502
    July 11, 2008

    Amazing… I can only hope to piss off Bill as much as you have. I’ll have to try harder.

  45. #45 The Reality-Based Dave
    July 11, 2008

    Ummm… Is’nt the convention being held in Saint Paul? Y’know, the city that has a Catholic cathedral across the road from the state capitol building? The dome of the cathedral that matches the dome of the capitol? Saint IRISH Paul? WTF?!?

    The rethugs keep on inventing new forms of being clueless.

  46. #46 Junkjungle
    July 11, 2008

    You know, I woke up this morning with a feeling that I was going to get my fill of religious inanity. Little did I know that it would not come from my Catholic coworker, but from the Catholic League and their ilk (hey, fair’s fair).

  47. #47 gdlchmst
    July 11, 2008

    “since when are we violent?”

    Since we started raping their minds with our awesome logic.

  48. #48 Jamdark
    July 11, 2008

    I can’t help but laugh at this logic, “Myers’ ilk used big mean words at us, and now we fear for our lives, and worse still, our religious freedomses!” *KA-CLICK*.

  49. #49 chrisD
    July 11, 2008

    Just for the record, #21 gdlchmst doesn’t speak for me. Way to give them ammunition bro.

  50. #50 GirBoBytons
    July 11, 2008

    Wow, well you know how scary us godless heathens can be! We shall not rest until we have killed every cracker, cracker and cracker. We shall take them from your homes, kitchen cabinets, grocery stores and perhaps throw them at you at conventions! I love how they start out stupid and continue to make themselves worse. PZ quit scaring the simple folk!! :P

  51. #51 TSC
    July 11, 2008

    This is fucking hilarious. You bad-boy demon! It must be the dyspeptic recurrence the IDiots mentioned earlier. Or the fact that you took your family to see Iron Man.

  52. #52 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    PZ, did you know the university is removing links to your blog from their website?

    My take on this is that they can now say “It’s not linked from our website” and then feel justified in taking no other action.

  53. #53 peaches
    July 11, 2008

    Are they asking for more security for themselves or more security for the crackers? Is there going to be a security detail at every mass ensuring that people have fully chewed and swallowed the host before they leave the building?

    Well, I can’t deny that they’ve experience vitriol. I heard some asshat even initiated a letter-writing campaign to Bill Donohue’s boss trying to get him fired over this whole thing. Oh, wait…

  54. #54 ice weasel
    July 11, 2008

    Bah, bed wetting republicans are nothing new. That they’re attributing it to something other than evil, dark-skinned terrorists might be a new twist. These scared, pathetic creeps need to stir up fear wherever they can. It’s the only hold they have on their sheep…errr…flock….errr….people.

    Donohue is the basest of whores. The one who cannot stand to be out of the spotlight and will do anything to stay in it.

  55. #55 Alex
    July 11, 2008

    This is kind of stupid, even for a bunch of religious zealots. If anyone is going to cause any violence, it’s going to be one of those kind, intelligent Catholics. ;)

  56. #56 Mena
    July 11, 2008

    Will that added security be protecting the Goopers in the men’s room at the airport? There apparently was all sorts of Republicans engaging in flesh-in-mouth activities there. They must be protected!
    Lana @18: I am glad that I have my stuffee as well. ;^)

    Oh, one more thing.
    A flick of my wrist, and cathedrals tumble to the earth; a nod of my head, and heathen legions rise up and swarm like flesh-eating locusts over the faithful.
    So the earthquake that hit Lisbon on All Saint’s Day 1755, the Good Friday Earthquake in Alaska in 1964, and the tsunami on Boxing Day 2004 were done by you? :^@

  57. #57 Am I Evil?
    July 11, 2008

    Let them dig… let them dig. They only succeed in making themselves look ever more twattish.

    Perhaps their crackers will arrive by helicopter in hermetically sealed tungsten cases.

  58. #58 Alonzo Fyfe
    July 11, 2008

    Note that the linked press release says:

    “But he’d better be careful what he says, because if I get any death threats, it won’t be hard to connect the dots.”

    So, they have not received any death threats yet. (And let’s keep it that way.)

    Whereas . . . how many death threats have gone the other direction?

    Alonzo Fyfe
    Atheist Ethicist

  59. #59 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    This whole situation is exciting and hilarious! It’s like the War on Christmas, in July!

  60. #61 Reed A. Cartwright
    July 11, 2008

    PZ when you come to Atlanta on Saturday we have to have Crackers with our beer!! Ha Crackers in Georgia, that’s funny on so many levels.

    Good luck finding a cracker in Atlanta. They became scarce around the time of Brown v. Board of Education.

  61. #62 Chayanov
    July 11, 2008

    Of course the Republicans have already been busy looking for some kind of excuse to impose martial law in the Twin Cities during the convention.

  62. #63 C.J. Simones
    July 11, 2008

    Spare me your self-pitying drivel. For someone that holds Christianity in such contempt you sure nail the part of the martyr. You know darn well there’ll be no Christians issuing fatwas calling for your head to be cut off (or if its Rev. Jackson, other unnecessary appendages).

    If you want to strike a real blow against the oppressive myth of religion and show the true courage of your convictions, why don’t you post a Mohammed caricature doing something unspeakable to a camel?

    You Christian-bashers are all the same: cowardly self-aggrandizers.

  63. #64 BobC
    July 11, 2008

    What bugs me the most about the cracker incident, is the removal of the Pharyngula link from the University’s website. That’s sucking up to Catholic terrorists and it’s disgraceful. At least two emails that were sent, including one from me, requested that the link be restored.

  64. #65 andyo
    July 11, 2008

    In the words of GOB Bluth:

    Oh, COME ON!

    On the other hand, this will probably finally teach them how to spell your name correctly.

  65. #66 Brownian, OM
    July 11, 2008

    since when are we violent?

    Posted by: Kristin | July 11, 2008 3:28 PM

    Apparently since we built Hitler in our secret basement Satanic laboratory over a century ago.

    Of course, anyone with passable fluency in German knows that Hitler was a professed Catholic as were many of his supporters at the time, including the Catholic Church.

    However, since most American Christians seem to follow the tenet “If English was good enough for Jesus, it’s good enough for me”, no one could reasonably expect them to know that.

  66. #67 Junkjungle
    July 11, 2008

    Just for the record, #21 gdlchmst doesn’t speak for me. Way to give them ammunition bro. – chrisD

    But he never said what, exactly, he’d be giving them. I say, we give them exactly what they fear, as noted by the same gdlchmst in post #47

    “‘since when are we violent?’

    Since we started raping their minds with our awesome logic.”

  67. #68 Lord Zero
    July 11, 2008

    Its truth!!, now there is a great chance than this
    will become a whole country issue, with the
    Crackergate being a strong diverging point
    between candidates…
    Its would be great to see PZ being interview in
    national tv, and having first pages on the news!!

  68. #69 kryptonic
    July 11, 2008

    This is just nucking futs!

    I think it’s time for the Department of Homeland Security to raise the terrorism threat level to Red/Severe.

  69. #70 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    C.J. Simones @ #63

    You know darn well there’ll be no Christians issuing fatwas calling for your head to be cut off…

    You did read that he got at least four death threats by email just yesterday, right?

  70. #71 Rey Fox
    July 11, 2008

    The way it’s getting, I can never hope for a “First!” and have to be happy with “Fifty-ninth!” (most likely a lie by the time this gets posted).

    I’d like to go to the Republican convention now and just hold up a sign that says “BOO!”

  71. #72 El'd Herring
    July 11, 2008

    Nathaniel – a very valid point. Pity you didn’t wait a few seconds and post it on #42 though – that would have been a neat coincidence!

  72. #73 Joe Blough
    July 11, 2008

    Bill Donohue accusing others of hysteria? Donohue pretty much is the definition of hysteria.

  73. #74 Alex
    July 11, 2008

    #1

    That’s my handle. No fair.

  74. #75 Cathy in Seattle
    July 11, 2008

    As others have said, it’s the time-honored “oh look at us we’re so persecuted” technique beloved of the bible-thumpers.

    Where would they be without our mockery? Ignored. Poor them, they need us.

  75. #76 uncle frogy
    July 11, 2008

    the right honorable Thomas E. Foley
    is a pandering jackass getting his name into this brouhaha bullshit tempest in a tea pot just to make himself look important and relevant to his district’s voters! If the RNC takes this seriously than reason has fled the neo-con reactionary right wing if there ever was any reason present in the first place. Just looks to me as another cynical political ploy to gain and maintain there own hold on political power!

  76. #77 Alex
    July 11, 2008

    Watch out you catholics. I got some mean ‘ole words I’ll thump you with!

  77. #78 W. Kiernan
    July 11, 2008

    Hey C. J. Simones, you jackass, can’t you read? PZ has already gotten death threats from you child-molesting swine.

  78. #79 chrisD
    July 11, 2008

    Just for the record #47 gdlchmst does indeed speak for me. We have no lack of ammunition there, bro.

  79. #80 Rey Fox
    July 11, 2008

    More Koran Envy @ #63. Anyone keeping tally?

  80. #81 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    Rey Fox @ #71

    I’d like to go to the Republican convention now and just hold up a sign that says “BOO!”

    And with that we should close this thread. That’s the best thing I’ve read all week!

  81. #82 Dahan
    July 11, 2008

    Well, it’s my backyard. I live in Saint Paul, and my wife works right downtown. They’d better be ready for me, because I’m prepared to roll my eyes at them and possibly even laugh. They should consider themselves warned! I may even march peacfully! I’ve done it before.

    Don’t worry, I’m using software that won’t allow this to be traced back to me.

  82. #83 BobC
    July 11, 2008

    “If you want to strike a real blow against the oppressive myth of religion and show the true courage of your convictions, why don’t you post a Mohammed caricature doing something unspeakable to a camel?”

    Good idea. We should do that the next time Muslims make death threats because somebody refused to eat a cracker.

  83. #84 DrA
    July 11, 2008

    Let me add a historical note about heresies and the Eucharist. I’m not a Catholic or a Catholic scholar, so I’m darned if I know how I know this, but the Catholic church had a long debate about transubstantiation. One opponent of a literal transformation into flesh and blood, a fellow named Berengar of Tours, called Pope Leo IX pulpifex (flesh maker), a pun on pontifex. Clever though it was this was the sort of heresy that could get you burned during the Inquisition. So that seems to be what we have here a new Inquisition. Any stakes being erected out on the quad? Sounds like people at the Catholic league have way too much time on their hands.

  84. #85 Copache
    July 11, 2008

    http://copache.wordpress.com/2008/07/11/it-gets-me-part-ii/

    The sequel to yesterday’s post. Happy to support you, PZ, and equally happy that Bill Donohue is such a dumbass that he would open up such opportunity to be attacked openly for his hypocrisy in my crowd.
    :)

  85. #86 C'mon ya loser!
    July 11, 2008

    C.J. Simones, lay off the muslim thing. It’s way beyond cliche and well into the mouth breather mantra range. As for Muslims, I have friends and family who are muslims. They don’t want to behead you. They don’t want to knock down any buildings. They want you and the mental giants who keep posting this same thing to develop a clue about the outside world so that they can live their lives without some idiot thinking that he or she is going to blow them up. Besides, if you do stop being terrified of muslims, you may not need to wear adult diapers any longer because you won’t wet your pants every time you go out in public and see one. It’s especially good since people like you tend to think that any brown skinned people, even people from central and south america are A-rabs. You must do a lot of laundry.

  86. #87 Dustin
    July 11, 2008

    Fear me, O Trembling Republicans. A flick of my wrist, and cathedrals tumble to the earth; a nod of my head, and heathen legions rise up and swarm like flesh-eating locusts over the faithful.

    Yesss… YESSSSS! THE STARS ARE IN PLACE, AND THE EARTH TREMBLES IN TERROR AND DESPAIR! THE GREAT OLD ONES ARE RETURNED FROM THE VOID! All hail my Dark Master!

  87. #88 Draconiz
    July 11, 2008

    Fear me, O Trembling Republicans. A flick of my wrist, and cathedrals tumble to the earth; a nod of my head, and heathen legions rise up and swarm like flesh-eating locusts over the faithful.

    PZ, you just owned the Internet!!!

  88. #89 C.J. Simones
    July 11, 2008

    I say again:

    “Spare me your self-pitying drivel. For someone that holds Christianity in such contempt you sure nail the part of the martyr. You know darn well there’ll be no Christians issuing fatwas calling for your head to be cut off (or if its Rev. Jackson, other unnecessary appendages).

    If you want to strike a real blow against the oppressive myth of religion and show the true courage of your convictions, why don’t you post a Mohammed caricature doing something unspeakable to a camel?

    You Christian-bashers are all the same: cowardly self-aggrandizers.”

  89. #90 Lord Zero
    July 11, 2008

    So much hate damn it… they really
    smugled the link ! all just for a
    cracker ! Its unbeliable, im so sorry,
    but that could never happen in my country
    nor in most countries around the world.
    If awful, why a so powerful country
    as the states its giving so shameful example ?

  90. #91 Helioprogenus
    July 11, 2008

    That’s right, we’re a real threat to these fucking idiots. Our rational beliefs coupled with our critical thinking skills and powers of reasoning are so dangerous, that we’ll melt the brains and eyes of any who stand in our way. Wouldn’t it be great if reality was this way? Unfortunately, the frenzied and rabid vitriol of these religious bastards is a bigger threat than anything we atheists (and secularists in general) can muster.

    Beware, all you holy book toting, flesh eating, blood drinking, pork avoiding, weekend worshipping, hypocritical, self-righteous, ignorant, illiterate, unscrupulous bastards, we have you in our sights. Unfortunately, the powers that the constitution provides us does not allow us to silence you effectively, but we’re not going to stop educating and spreading logic, critical thinking, reasoning amongst the critical masses. Your archaic notions are constantly at odds with reality, and something’s gotta give you fuckers.

  91. #92 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    @#89:

    The fuck? Saying it twice doesn’t make it any better or more true, dipshit.

  92. #93 JD
    July 11, 2008

    All this over an f’n cracker. This whole series of insanity from these religious nuts reminded me of when I was a teenager and had a Mormon raised girlfriend. Was never religious myself, she certainly didn’t act “religious” either but I did attend some of the Mormon church dances they held and a service or two with her. The Mormon’s also perform this ritual and when the crackers came to us I just did what everyone else was doing and picked up a cracker to take a bite. I didn’t really know anything back then about the religious mythology behind the whole thing. Before I took a bite my girlfriend stopped me and I’ll never forget the look on her face as she asked me “You know what that is right?” She had a pained look as if I might suddenly burst into flames on the spot if I actually took a bite. I just looked at her and said “Of course!” (I was really thinking yeah it’s a f’n cracker so what?)”, ate my cracker and that was that. Now I look back and think how thoroughly brainwashed she must have been as a child and am just stunned that so many people can swallow this kind of idiotic belief.

  93. #94 daenku32
    July 11, 2008

    Have they not looked at the picture of PZ? He looks like a cute little teddy bear.

    But no one expects the inquisition!

  94. #95 ndt
    July 11, 2008

    Ummm… Is’nt the convention being held in Saint Paul? Y’know, the city that has a Catholic cathedral across the road from the state capitol building? The dome of the cathedral that matches the dome of the capitol? Saint IRISH Paul? WTF?!?

    Posted by: The Reality-Based Dave | July 11, 2008 3:32 PM

    Yes it is. It’s not in Minneapolis and it’s nowhere near Morris. And as a Saint Paul resident, let me assure you that those of us who actually live in and love this city did not want the GOP convention here and want no part of it.

  95. #96 watercat
    July 11, 2008

    As I recall, this whole flap started when some Catholics grabbed a kid and attempted to physically wrestle away his possessions.

    < >

  96. #97 Fitz Doubet
    July 11, 2008

    Oh brother. *rolls eyes* Ooh, the heathen armys are going to go marching to bludgeon old white men over a cracker. Give me a fucking break.

    Sorry Billy boy, the persecution excuse doesn’t fly anymore.

  97. #98 Kristine
    July 11, 2008

    Why, were they planning this year to bring a bunch of communion wafers with purple hearts drawn on them, or something? ;-)

    (Hey, C.J. Simones – read much?)

  98. #99 C'mon ya loser!
    July 11, 2008

    C.J. Simones, and I say again:
    You don’t have to worry about incontinence every time you see a dark skinned person.

  99. #100 John
    July 11, 2008

    Bill Donohue’s never heard of PZ? Geez, Ben Stein can’t get anyone to see his movie.

  100. #101 dwarf zebu
    July 11, 2008

    Lots of us women are happier having ended up with the stuffee.

    Hear,hear!

  101. #102 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    Oh this is rich! I recall a local news report (I live in a suburb north of the mpls/st. paul area) saying that the local police were having a hard time getting volunteer police staff for the GOP shindig. According to channel XX news the counties insurance policy on the event might not be substantial enough to cover “possible excessive force and police brutality cases”. I guess Florida and a number of other [red] states have agreed to send some help. Perhaps this is just the excuse they needed to get out the Gestapo. (yep, that became law).

    I thought that sounded insane but a GOP delegate (and electoral college nominee no less) asking for security against atheists is sheer madness. Way to spin this one into your own corner! One more nail in the coffin of sanity.

    What next, religious profiling? Atheists being declared as enemies of the state? I hear Cuba is lovely this time of year…I can’t wait to be detained for lack of religion!

    Any countries taking American refugees yet ?

  102. #103 AJ Milne
    July 11, 2008

    They’d better be ready for me, because I’m prepared to roll my eyes at them and possibly even laugh. They should consider themselves warned! I may even march peacfully! I’ve done it before.

    Me, I plan to chortle heartily. The leader of my EAC cell tells me if I do this and get tear gassed, I get a dozen slightly bookish but seriously hot atheist chicks who look seriously amazing wearing those heavy, horn-rimmed librarian glasses… Also, I get to do shooters with Hitch until they toss us both outta the bar.

  103. #104 hermit
    July 11, 2008

    so the republican national convention is in Minneapolis? I hope the mayor issues a public service advisory urging all citizens to avoid public restrooms while the republicans are in town.

  104. #105 Don
    July 11, 2008

    They’re probably right to be afraid; you are, after all, one of those militant atheists.

    Just remember that every dollar they spend on the PZ Defense Fund is a dollar they can’t dedicate to kickbacks for FOX Snooze anchors.

  105. #106 Ken Cope
    July 11, 2008

    PZ, if this doesn’t abate in the next couple of days (and I don’t see any signs that your new BFF from the Catholic League wants it to subside) I’d be on the lookout for Fox News camera crews hiding in your bushes between your house and the campus, with a Factor Producer ready to shove a microphone in your face to get a load of your snarling venomous fury and unhinged, frothing demeanor, to unspool on a War on XMas segment for Bill O’Reilly.

    “Don’t block the shot! We’re doin’ it live!”

  106. #107 El Zilcho
    July 11, 2008

    The Catholics have a proud and lengthy history of paranoia. Why are we surprised that they’re so pissed?
    only crazy zealots could see good ol’ “Easy” PZ Myers as a source of violence.

  107. #108 Longtime Lurker
    July 11, 2008

    I have the sneaking suspicion that Bill Donohue (Rome’s Concern Troll TM), besides being a complete tool, is trying to use this whole sordid affair as a means to drive rank and file Catholics, who are starting to trend Democratic these days, back towards the GOP. For Donohue, it’s always been about the Culture War TM, not defense of the faithful (originally, in my haste, I typed faithdul-a neologism that should stick). The funniest thing about the whole rigmarole is Donohue’s knock against evolution, which sets him at odds with church doctrine.

    Oh, and if you do take them up on their Koran desecration challenge, you should use the papers of that other problematic book to degrease delicious, salty bacon, which you can then use to top those not-so-delicious wafers.

  108. #109 Tophe
    July 11, 2008

    Strange – using Google, the only connections I can find between the RNC convention and Thomas Foley all mention Mr. Foley being called in to deal with Ron Paul and his supporters. (example) Seems to me the call for extra security is most likely due to the American Liberty Coalition’s Operation St. Paul. Of course that’s not going to stop the delusional Donohue from thinking it is to protect his ilk from PZ’s ilk…

  109. #110 The Other Dan from Wisconsin
    July 11, 2008

    PZ: Perhaps they are afraid your trained squid will attack them when they visit Minneapolis. You might ease their fears by assuring them all you squid are properly licensed and leashed at all times, and that only rarely do they ever escape to threaten major metropolitan centers or gobble up hordes of visiting convention-goers. http://usera.imagecave.com/CobraTheEnemy/octopus.jpg
    ;-)

  110. #111 pcarini
    July 11, 2008
  111. #112 Sili
    July 11, 2008

    AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

    That’s just priceless.

    On a more serious note, I hope you have a good relationship with the local constabulary, PZed. Much as I like to point and laugh at the religiots, this is starting to get out of hand, and I seriously worry for your safety.

    Hysteria? Well, it takes one to know one, I s’pose. From what I’ve heard (and the little I’ve seen) of Donohue, I’d venture a guess at him being made entirely of hysterae (hysterai? Is there a classicist in the house?).

  112. #113 pbnj
    July 11, 2008

    The remark about my backyard is amusing — Minneapolis is 150 miles away. It’s also more towards one side of my house; I think Iowa would be my backyard, while Canada is my front yard. I sure hope I don’t get assessed for property taxes on the entire upper midwest.

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/12/spend_easter_in_minneapolis.php

    Everyone ought to mark their calendars: on the weekend of 21-23 March, the 34th Annual National Conference of American Atheists will be held in lovely Minneapolis, Minnesota — my backyard.

    *snicker* PZ, you dumbass.

  113. #114 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    @ 103

    You’re getting a dozen?! I was only promised six at best (I guess there’s a shortage).

    I need to have a serious talk with someone in command…

  114. #115 nobi yuno
    July 11, 2008

    It’s interesting to note that the Catholic League sees fit to print Myers’ email address but not its own. Click the Contact link and it’s a phone number.

    That phone number is:

    (212) 371-3191

    Their fax is:

    (212) 371-3394

  115. #116 Kenny P
    July 11, 2008

    Poor St. Paul. Dissed again. The convention will be held in St. Paul at the Xcel Energy Center; not Minneapolis!

    Catholic conventioneers do not need to worry. St. Paul is an extremely Irish Catholic community, but I am sure that the Catholic League will provide photos of PZ to the local police (and Blackwater!) to protect the innocent.

    Can they also protect runaway crackers?

  116. #117 scooter
    July 11, 2008

    OMG!!! We’re being referred to as ‘ilk’.

    Got Ilk?

  117. #118 Keith B
    July 11, 2008

    If some Catholic nut assaults Myers over this nonsense, I’m gonna be sad. When are people going to get over this religious bullshit? There are still some actual problems in the world (genocide, politicide, democide, child labor and child combat, civil wars, interstate wars, proxy wars, terrorism, anti-colonial conflicts, nuclear proliferation, insurgencies, domestic crime, economic inflation, poverty, environmental pollution, rising oil prices, starvation, etc). Who gives a flying fuck about a goddamned cracker? Eating it and fighting for its supposed divinity doesn’t make you a better person. It just kills thirty minutes honoring some dead Hebrew with an ego problem who didn’t come back and save the world like his apostles thought he would.

  118. #119 Blake Stacey
    July 11, 2008

    pbnj (#113):

    You humorless twat.

    (Arguing on the Internet is so much fun!)

  119. #120 BobC
    July 11, 2008

    C.J. Simones, why don’t you say it a third time, since apparently you have nothing else to say.

    If you have a problem with Catholics being ridiculed, why don’t you complain to the Catholic terrorists who want to kill to save a cracker.

  120. #121 Snitzels
    July 11, 2008

    Wait… did I miss something? Has a single atheist made a threat towards the Catholics? Or has it not been that the Catholics have been the ones making threats? So… why would the Catholics need protection….

    ***HEAD EXPLODES***

  121. #122 Fitz Doubet
    July 11, 2008

    “We already know that Myers lost one round: the university has removed the link to his blog from his faculty page. He should be prepared to lose a few more rounds. By the way, Myers says he is delighted to have finally garnered my attention. Too bad I can’t say the same–I never heard of the guy until yesterday.” – Bill Donahue

    Hmm, we’ve all heard of Donahue and he’s never heard of PZ. Shows what box he lives in.

  122. #123 Kseniya
    July 11, 2008

    THE STORY SO FAR:

    The poor, persecuted billion-strong Catholic Church is being threatened by a few dozen blog commenters who’ve criticized some undeterminined number of Catholics who’ve threatening the physicsl well-being of a college student who took a cracker from a church.

  123. #124 Greg
    July 11, 2008

    Donohue is right in thinking this is a free speech issue. Unfortunately, the person who is protected in this case is PZ, as it was his speech. These people really do live in a fantasy world…

  124. #125 qedpro
    July 11, 2008

    In summary:

    1) Webster Cook shouldn’t have taken the host without asking.
    2) The diocese has a right to be upset and take action over the theft.
    3) Extreme reactions like death threats against Cook are completely unacceptable.
    4) PZ has a right to mock the whole situation.
    5) People have a right to be offended by PZ’s comments and say so.
    6) Donohue is blowing the whole thing out of proportion.

    I have to disagree with #1, #2. its not theft if you’re given it. the preist put it in his mouth (so to speak).

    Therefore it is his to do with as he pleases.
    Are u actually saying that if you’re given a cracker, it is theft if you walk out of the church with it in your hand, but its not theft if you walk out of church with it in your stomach.

    am i understanding your argument

  125. #126 ChrisG
    July 11, 2008

    So, UMM removed the link to Pharyngula from PZ’s staff info page. Pretty gutless, but harmless. It would look a little less craven if they removed every link to personal websites.

    But Great Cthuhlu! Who knew of the great powers of the mighty PZM!? Quick, pass the noodles!

  126. #127 nobi yuno
    July 11, 2008

    pbnj: He says “my distant backyard.”

  127. #128 Cheezits
    July 11, 2008

    We shall not rest until we have killed every cracker, cracker and cracker.

    Now I’m skeered.

    I’m hiding my Cheez-its.

  128. #129 ChrisG
    July 11, 2008

    Uh, sorry, I meant Cthulhu, of course!

  129. #130 pbnj
    July 11, 2008

    Blake Stacey (#119):

    So shouldn’t PZ mock himself for calling Minneapolis his “backyard?” Or is it only considered stupid when a Catholic uses such a metaphor?

  130. #131 Alex
    July 11, 2008

    “…few dozen blog commenters…”

    Oh come on now. I think we’ve at least reached the classification of “hoards of commenters”.

  131. #132 Tim H
    July 11, 2008

    I think that it is extremely despicable that the Catholic League is drawing PZ’s ilk into this affair. I for one had no idea he had an ilk, and am sure sure the ilk would never intentionally harm anyone. If fact, I think we would all agree that we would like PZ to post some pictures of his ilk somewhere on the site, along with a few random pieces of biographical data concerning it. And to the faithheads— HANDS OFF PZ’s ILK!

  132. #133 Mike
    July 11, 2008

    A flick of my wrist, and cathedrals tumble to the earth; a nod of my head, and heathen legions rise up and swarm like flesh-eating locusts over the faithful.

    If only! Damn that’s a nice vision, though. PZ for Overlord!!!

  133. #134 Dean
    July 11, 2008

    I’m not sure whether “C.J. Simones” is blind, foolish, unable to read, or unable to comprehend the input of others, but somehow he has missed these points:
    - it was some Catholic folk who first sent death threats to a kid who did something (I consider to be) stupid but not illegal
    - it was Bill Donahue who said that failing to eat a cracker and or threatening to defile(?) a cracker was worse than a real physical threat to a true Catholic
    - there have been at least four emailed death threats to Dr. Myers over his comments
    - there has been plenty of well-deserved scorn and ridicule for the extremists of many religions on this site – heck, there has been plenty of the same for those who are extreme and foolish without religion
    - Catholicism itself is not being singled out here, and was never the point of the original post. That post was about the incredibly irrational behavior of a few individuals who happen to be Catholic (and apparently, not very bright, but I digress)
    I’m not sure what point(s) “C.J. Simones” thinks he is making, is trying to make, or whether he is capable of doing any more than repeating the same empty comeback. Unfortunately, several posts from those who support Dr. Meyers are doing the same thing.
    Why pick on “C. J. Simones”? He stands out, I guess, because of the cut-and-paste foolishness he demonstrates. I fear that after the huge number of posts made over the previous 1.5 days that it is too late for a discussion that is calm and reasoned on both sides – then again, given the foolishness over which this began, reason has never been involved.

  134. #135 Benjamin Franklint
    July 11, 2008

    Got Ilk?

  135. #136 pbnj
    July 11, 2008

    I’ll probably be killfiled (again) because I broke the Pharyngula golden rule: “Do not point out the stupidity and hypocrisy of the blog owner.”

  136. #137 GirBoBytons
    July 11, 2008

    #91 you said the same thing I did but much more poetic. I admit I got a little lazy but it was still funny…to your post I must applaud…thank you for doing it better. :) I think we should leave it at post #91 he said it so well. hehe

  137. #138 JD
    July 11, 2008

    So pbnj, I know you feel strongly about the whole “backyard controversy”, how about telling us how you feel about Catholics issuing death threats over a cracker?

  138. #139 BobC
    July 11, 2008

    “Pretty gutless, but harmless.”

    The removal of the Pharyngula link from the university website was cowardly appeasement of terrorists. I encourage people who haven’t already sent an email, to request that the link be restored.

  139. #140 pbnj
    July 11, 2008

    But I still think it’s funny that the university kicked off the links to your blog.

  140. #141 PoxyHowzes
    July 11, 2008

    “All ur ilk is belong 2 satan!”

    And are sure they don’t think you’re a pissant, PZ, not puissant?

  141. #142 Lakanish
    July 11, 2008

    C.J. Simones
    Yes. It’s really a shame that PZ only takes on Christianity. If only, only there were some way to “look up” or “search” the site for references to Islam, we could prove that he secretly loves Muslims! If only there was a way to “search”…OH WAIT!!! A SEARCH FIELD!!

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/03/watch_out_for_the_mudghah_on.php
    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/02/it_could_be_worse.php
    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/turkish_ass_shuts_down_a_slice.php

    And, of course, my personal favorite. In this one PZ offers to urinate, pet train with, and burn a Quran.

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/desecration_its_a_fun_hobby.php

    Hey, PZ, how many death threats did you get from the Muslims for that one? And how many from the Catholics for this? Just like statistics, that’s all.

    Everybody else: sorry, I know I should’ve ignored the troll.

  142. #143 Lord Zero
    July 11, 2008

    Im part of the atheist army from the apocalypse
    or something like that, and of course PZ
    its the monster from hell who seduces people
    with his diabolic science, reason and critical
    thinking…

  143. #144 pbnj
    July 11, 2008

    JD (#138)

    I don’t know. How do *you* feel about atheists issuing death threats over a being they don’t even believe in?

  144. #145 writzer
    July 11, 2008

    Well, this is just great! Donohue has soured me on Irish tenors forever. I’ll never be able to listen to ‘Danny Boy’ again.

    @#93 … I was raised Mormon, in SLC no less, and worked my way up the ranks to ‘priest’ before walking out of that magic show. During Sunday services, they have a sacrament ritual where the priests crumble slices of Wonder Bread into tiny bits and invoke a blessing on the palid crumbs and on trays of tiny paper cups previously filled with water (alcohol is taboo, so no wine). After this, ‘deacons’ (boys, no grlz alowd) who range in age from 12 to 14 pass the bowls of bready bits to the first person in each pew who takes a piece, eats it, and passes the bowl down the row. The fun is then repeated with the tiny cups of water.

    In this case, however, the priestly invocation is not believed to magically turn the bread into Jebus flesh nor the water into blood. Rather, the bread and water simply represent those goodies.

    As far as I know, no one has ever had wrath poured out upon him or her for sneaking a bit of bread out of an LDS ward and feeding it to ducks, or whatever.

  145. #146 jonathan
    July 11, 2008

    I have an admission to make: I didn’t bat an eyelash when PZ said he received death threats, and I thought it eminently sensible of him not to take them very seriously.

    But I was a little shocked to hear that atheists might be sending death threats to Catholics. A type of confirmation bias on my part, I suppose. It just seems like atheists aren’t the “death threat” kind of people. If it’s true, I think I’m going to be a little disappointed in us.

  146. #147 Mena
    July 11, 2008

    I don’t know. How do *you* feel about atheists issuing death threats over a being they don’t even believe in?
    We’ll let you know when that actually happens. Until then, you guys have the monopoly on that.

  147. #148 DrB
    July 11, 2008

    His concern is for the safety of Catholics attending this year’s Republican National Convention in Minneapolis, Myers’ backyard.

    The last two words are just a hat tip. The real concern is all of the Minnesota Lutherans. We all know how well it worked out last time Catholics and Lutherans mixed it up.

  148. #149 Richard Harris
    July 11, 2008

    “…His concern is for the safety of Catholics attending this year’s Republican National Convention in Minneapolis, Myers’ backyard. Accordingly, Foley has asked the top GOP brass to provide additional security while in the Twin Cities so that Catholics can worship without fear of violence. “

    Come on, you Pharyngulites, think this through. They really want protection because they think we’ll be invading their masses, & trying to steal their crackers. They’ll have to defend the magic crackers, so a big fight’ll erupt. They’ll need police or army protection gainst PZ, the antiChrist, & his rampaging atheistic, devil-worshipping hordes, who are known for their history of persecution against other faiths. Well, if they believe that religious crap, they must be feckin’ edjits.

  149. #150 Blake Stacey
    July 11, 2008

    So shouldn’t PZ mock himself for calling Minneapolis his “backyard?” Or is it only considered stupid when a Catholic uses such a metaphor?

    I never thought I’d be spending today explaining why a joke does not have to be literally true; that, for example, I could say that a scientific conference being held in New York as opposed to London or Tokyo is “practically in my backyard”. What a puzzle that notion of context is, indeed!

    I think we can add sense of humor to empathy and logic on the list of attributes bled away by doctrinaire Catholicism.

  150. #151 Jason
    July 11, 2008

    Well there’s no such thing as bad publicity; just bad crackers.

    Bill Donahue is a bad cracker.

  151. #152 Theodore
    July 11, 2008

    Our master plan is coming to fruition. While they are occupied securing human beings, we shall be desecrating their wafers!

    Mwahahaha!

  152. #154 llewelly
    July 11, 2008

    It’s possible that Bill Donohue is trying to get PZ on the no-fly list. I suspect he’ll fail, but we’ll see.

  153. #155 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    PZ

    I really wish you’d just put a plug in that mouth of yours.

    You really need to say what you did in the interview online that you were just satirizing the beliefs and weren’t actively advocating that people go into Catholic churches and try to steal consecrated communion wafers.

    You’re a smart guy and I’m glad you fight against all those creationist idiots. However, as an atheist, I’m beginning to frankly find you an embarrassment.

  154. #156 Meeee
    July 11, 2008

    You mean I’m officially “ilk” now?

    FINALLY! RECOGNITION!

  155. #157 pbnj
    July 11, 2008

    We’ll let you know when that actually happens. Until then, you guys have the monopoly on that.

    Yes, because atheists sending death threats to theists has NEVER, EVER happened. EVER.

    “I’ve never seen an atheist send a death threat to a theist, so obviously no atheist has ever done so.”

    Obviously, atheists have the monopoly on logical fallacies.

  156. #158 JD
    July 11, 2008

    So you don’t know how you feel about Catholics issuing death threats over a cracker. Gee, thought that would be a no brainer but I guess I gave you too much credit. Pretty much sums up your disgusting immorality not to mention any hint of following the teachings of the one whose flesh you think your consuming. WWJD? You are a reprehensible being.

  157. #159 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    Address according to internets:

    Catholic League for Religious and Civil Rights
    1011 1ST AVE
    New York, NY 10022-4106

    Which, amusingly, is the same address as the Archdiocese Of New York, Catholic Charities Of The Archdiocese Of NY (main office), New York Institute For Human Development (??) and several other Catholic organizations/fronts/cells…etc.

    If the Catholic League and Roman Catholic church aren’t “in step” with each other they sure are close neighbors!

  158. #160 AJ
    July 11, 2008

    If only catholics like Don’kno’who didn’t take sex advice from an eighty-year-old virgin, they probably would be more fun to hang around with…

  159. #161 J-Dog
    July 11, 2008

    #59 – POST OF THE WEEK!

    “This whole situation is exciting and hilarious! It’s like the War on Christmas, in July!”

    WOOT!

  160. #162 mayhempix
    July 11, 2008

    PZ… they must have found out about the lions crossed with human stem cells you have been cloning in the lab after hours.

  161. #163 Bert Chadick
    July 11, 2008

    “His post can be accessed from his faculty page on the university’s website”

    So, according to the catholic league Pharyngula can be accessed from UMM’s faculty web page. True, but Google is more direct. What does that prove? The first time I read this argument it was in the early days of the inner-tubes and on one wingnut’s website it was noted that it was only four clicks from the Democratic Party’s website to the Communist Party’s website.

    Aren’t the old lies the best lies?

  162. #164 Kevin Anthoney
    July 11, 2008

    If you want to strike a real blow against the oppressive myth of religion and show the true courage of your convictions, why don’t you post a Mohammed caricature doing something unspeakable to a camel?

    Because that would be gratuitously attacking religion, whereas we prefer to attack religion for a reason. In this case, the specific incident we’re bashing involved Catholics, not Muslims, and going after Muslims for something Catholics did would be silly.

  163. #165 K. Signal Eingang
    July 11, 2008

    Didn’t PZ already threaten to desecrate a Koran a few months back?

    I mean just for the benefit of CJ and any other Catholic who thinks they’re being singled out. We’re equal opportunity offenders here.

    (Now I’m off to go scribble crayon pictures of dongs in a copy of Dianetics).

  164. #166 pbnj
    July 11, 2008

    JD (#158)

    Since you didn’t answer my question, you obviously have no problem with atheists sending theists death threats. Nice to know. Just another example of people living in glass houses throwing stones.

    Cute attempt at sounding all righteously rational and more intellectual than thou, too, JD. “Thou foul theist beast! Get thee back to thine evil master with his sharp, nasty, pointy teeth! Begone, I say! Begone, non-heathen! In PZ’s name!”

  165. #167 Chief
    July 11, 2008

    My irony meter broke. To wit:

    As a result of the hysteria that Myers’ ilk have promoted

    Seriously?!? Didn’t the hysteria arise from the other side of the aisle when they over-reacted to stolen flour+water+heat?

    Accordingly, Foley has asked the top GOP brass to provide additional security while in the Twin Cities so that Catholics can worship without fear of violence.

    “Fear of violence…” The additional security may not be such a bad idea, to keep the hot-headed, over-reacting catholics from making goods on their threats of violence. Has there been any threat of violence from the non-theists? Um, no.

    Given the vitriol we have experienced for simply exercising our First Amendment right to freedom of speech

    This is when the ol’ irony meter just napped. I’m still steamed. Webb exercises his right of free speech, and just look at the vitriol. They have not simply exercised free speech. They have tormented a poor kid, they have threatened legal action, they have committed slander and libel against him, they have threatened his livelihood, his safety and his life.
    PZ exercises his right of free speech, and just look at the vitriol. They have tormented him, they have threatened legal action, they have committed slander and libel against him, they have threatened his livelihood, his safety and his life.

    Sometimes I hold up no hope for humanity.

  166. #168 Glen Davidson
    July 11, 2008

    Of course they’re not going to actually increase security over this. Just call for it, pander cheaply to paranoid Catholics (seriously, I doubt many of them care about this nonsense), and pretend to take it all very seriously.

    Davetard is more scary (demented) than the whole of Pharyngula, and he’s only a paper tiger trying to get some dying tard to take a shot at PZ.

    Make sure the bridges are safe, and the Republicans won’t have to worry about their convention.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

  167. #169 Snitzels
    July 11, 2008

    Would someone please pay attention to C.J.Simones @#89 before he feels too left out that no one will argue at him?

    Have some crackers & cheese with that whine.

  168. #170 Jason
    July 11, 2008

    I didn’t realise Catholics were allowed in the Republican party. I thought it was all Baptist these days.

  169. #171 Eric
    July 11, 2008

    Too bad the villain name “Dr. Octopus” is already taken. Maybe Stan Lee would be willing to loan it to PZ for a while.

  170. #172 Snitzels
    July 11, 2008

    Awwww, I’m sure C.J. feels much better now…

  171. #173 Feynmaniac
    July 11, 2008

    A few quick points:

    (1) I’m already making my “I survived Crackergate ’08″ t-shirts.

    (2) When the RNC goes to Minneapolis the Guinness Book of World Records will there to award the inevitable “Nastiest 25 man Homosexual Orgy” that will occur in the airport bathroom.

    (3) First the right wing turns you away and lets in Richard Dawkins. Now they are beefing up security for being within 150 miles of you, PZ! You become the boogie man to them. I am jealous.

    (4) I live in Canada and am not ashamed to say that I live on PZ Myers’ front lawn.

  172. #174 Inky
    July 11, 2008

    *reads entry*
    *bursts spleen laughing*

    Seriously, though, in the now famously infamous entry telling your squidlings to bring forth Catholic crackers, was there anything said to imply that your wrath would be brought down upon anything else? Did any of us actually threaten any physical harm to anyone except ourselves from laughing to death, or cerebral hemorrhaging?

    Surely, these people are indeed prone to gigantic, and I mean, MONSTROUSLY HUGE leaps of faith. I suppose that is their self-professed badge of honor. They think SkyDaddyMan can do anything, and well, if crackers turn to flesh, then certainly it’s not preposterous to assume that you, a mild-mannered academician (academicians are obviously well known for their superiority in things such as contact sports), would be capable of wreaking havoc on a whole mass of Republicans, even if at least half of whom are probably carrying concealed weapons.

    Beyond the leap of faith, I’d say that this reeks of megalomania. “Oh, my gosh, I’m sooooo important! Because Big SkyDaddyMan loves ME! And He hates everyone I hate! I’m sooo religious! That’s how I know I’m right–because the Bible says that everyone that I think is wrong is actually wrong! Go me! Oh no! He’s going to take our crackers! … Jesus crackers!! … Jesus! QUICK! Bring out the National Guard!!”

    I’d say, stfu and go work on something important, you pompous deluded self-righteous pricks. People are struggling in this country to have food and shelter and you practically go to war over some fucking crackers? Why don’t they at least put those crackers to good use and pass them out to the homeless or something?

    Incidentally–does the cracker turn into ALL of Jesus, or part of Jesus? It’s really just a mouthful of Jesus, no? Do you get, say, his toe, or, maybe his holy elbow, or, if you’re lucky, his weewee?

    I guess, if you thought that the cracker was your Lord and Savior’s weewee, then it’s kinda understandable that you’d be really offended and threatened and that somehow letting His Almighty Weewee go says something very dire about you.

    P.S. I could say “Penis”, but “His Almighty Penis” has a grandeur and dignity that would not necessitate a multitude of people to defend its integrity. An Almighty Penis can stand up for itself. Weewee Crackers, on the other hand, justly require diligent protection.

  173. #175 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    As a follow up – let’s all give a big thanks to the great and esteemed PZ Myers. Now all atheists will be viewed as petty thieves trying to steal consecrated communion wafers.

    PZ you’re fired as my PR agent.

  174. #176 info_dump
    July 11, 2008

    Hey, has anyone pointed out yet that this is ironic because PZ got death threats in HIS e-mail?

    Oh. They have?

    Still, it’s pretty ironic, right?

  175. #177 Annie
    July 11, 2008

    A flick of my wrist, and cathedrals tumble to the earth; a nod of my head, and heathen legions rise up and swarm like flesh-eating locusts over the faithful.

    PZ for Prez!

    The platform:

    *Free the crackers from cannibalism!
    *CSPAN 4 – The Evolution Channel
    *Critical Thinking and the Scientific Method In Every School
    *Constitutional Competency Testing of All Elected and Appointed Officials
    *Absolute Separation (behind a firewall) of church and state

  176. #178 Ben Abbott
    July 11, 2008

    Foley has asked the top GOP brass to provide additional security while in the Twin Cities so that Catholics can worship without fear of violence.

    Are they worried someone might borrow another cracker, or that some atheist might cannibalize the flesh of the man-god?

  177. #179 Benjamin Franklin
    July 11, 2008

    Memo going out today from Director of Secret Service-

    Re: REP NAT CONV MINN-

    Agents will be assigned for special security detail of all crackers in Minnesota.

  178. #180 Tom
    July 11, 2008

    Bwahahaha!!!!

    Catholics are making death threats… and PZ is the dangerous one?

    BwaHAHAHA!!! Oh, stop… it’s too funny….

    Islamo-envy strikes again!

    I think Pat Condell had a few things to say about this. He aims at Muslims a bit, but it sooo applies to this situation. Links here:

    http://youtube.com/user/patcondell
    http://youtube.com/watch?v=mM2dC1iWzww

  179. #181 Coriolis
    July 11, 2008

    No pbnj, he didn’t answer your question because to our knowledge that hasn’t happened.

    When you produce a letter from an evil atheist biology professor threatening a student who stole a biology book with death, then we’ll say “yeah, that’s bad”. I wouldn’t hold my breath for that to happen though.

    Are you all satisfied now with the useless hypotheticals and you can maybe consider what has actually happened, i.e. death threats over crackers?

    Oh no, my bad that would actually require you to deal with reality! I forgot you don’t believe in that useless concept.

  180. #182 Ghost of Minnesota
    July 11, 2008

    I’m just glad PZ is generous enough to let me live in his backyard.

  181. #183 Brownian, OM
    July 11, 2008

    I say again:

    Posted by: C.J. Simones | July 11, 2008 3:49 PM

    Try reading once, moron.

  182. #184 chgo_liz
    July 11, 2008

    Well, at least they’ve taken our minds off the fact that they (literally and figuratively) support child rapists.

    Who would want to join these paragons of virtue? They’re the real reason Jesus never bothered to return. He doesn’t want to deal with having such wackos as followers.

    (I’m skipping over the no-God-to-be-Son-of part of the story, of course.)

  183. #185 JM Inc.
    July 11, 2008

    Oh my god! An agent of the Magisterium is going to try to poison Lord Asriel! Watch out, PZ!

  184. #186 mayhempix
    July 11, 2008

    So I just spoke with Tom Foley in person on the phone and asked him why he asked for extra security and was it just a political ploy.

    He told me he needs it because of the “uncertanty” that PZ’s attacks on Catholicism has produced. I asked him to give one example where a Catholic was ever physically attacked by an atheist. He ignored the question. When I asked about the death threats to PZ by Catholics he ignored me sand said he was everything leaving it up to the authorities and hung up.

  185. #187 Alex
    July 11, 2008

    Cracker + Human Uttering + Woo = Dead Man’s Flesh

    Makes perfect sense.

  186. #188 Mika H
    July 11, 2008

    Conservative apologists need to come up with other material than the “you cowards always pick on christians because it’s safe, what about the muslims?”. They like throwing that red herring at liberals, but it’s really humorous when used here.

  187. #189 Jacku
    July 11, 2008

    I’ve been reading this blog for a few months now and considered commenting before, but haven’t. This time I feel I must.

    You see the RNC is practically in my backyard. I volunteer at the Science Museum of Minnesota (right across the street from “the X”). I clocked the distance from my driveway (okay its a bunch of pavers that I park the car on) to my usual parking space at SMM, 1.8 miles. Plus the orientation is right.

    If they increase the security for Catholics I expect to see mounted police in my neighborhood. We have 3 or 4 Catholic churches within 10 blocks of my house. Well it’ll make that much more interesting. ;-)

  188. #190 Jeff Schmidt
    July 11, 2008

    Re: post’s title

    It involves religion. Of COURSE it can get more insane. There really isn’t a limit, except maybe your own imagination.

  189. #191 Brownian, OM
    July 11, 2008

    So I just spoke with Tom Foley in person on the phone and asked him why he asked for extra security and was it just a political ploy.

    He told me he needs it because of the “uncertanty” that PZ’s attacks on Catholicism has produced. I asked him to give one example where a Catholic was ever physically attacked by an atheist. He ignored the question. When I asked about the death threats to PZ by Catholics he ignored me sand said he was everything leaving it up to the authorities and hung up.

    Well, you need to learn to interpret things metaphorically mayhempix, like the Good Catholics? do.

    What Tom was actually saying is that he’s planning lambchops for dinner tomorrow night (today is Fishy Friday, of course) and that no, he doesn’t think libraries have been made obsolete by the internet just yet, and finally, he doesn’t know where you left your housekeys.

  190. #192 mayhemix
    July 11, 2008

    However, as an atheist, I’m beginning to frankly find you an embarrassment.
    Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 4:18 PM

    Oh the irony!

  191. #193 JD
    July 11, 2008

    For pbnj’s edification I and all other actual human beings with any decency whatsoever find making death threats by anyone to be an act of unconscionable degenerate depravity.

    Of course pbnj did answer my question, he said he didn’t know how he’d feel about Catholics issuing death threats over a cracker. Tells you everything you need to know about his unsavory immorality.

  192. #194 michel
    July 11, 2008

    3 things:

    - donohue’s style comes across as really childish: “Myers says he is delighted to have finally garnered my attention. Too bad I can’t say the same–I never heard of the guy until yesterday.” this is high school stuff. just check the hitchens/donohue video on youtube, same stuff. and donohue’s smile at the end says it all.

    - it seems donohue hasn’t received any death threats yet. good, it makes PZ and his ilk look good.. but wait what happens once donohue receives them…. he won’t have a hard time connecting the dots… let’s see what he comes up with.

    - donohue claims to have won round one. but i guess removing that link from the university page, even if it came out of all this, won’t do much to harm PZ’s popularity. how many of you got to this blog through that link?

  193. #195 Helioprogenus
    July 11, 2008

    #137
    It doesn’t matter how we say it, but what’s important is that we recognize the inane bullshit these bastards represent. Seriously, how can they assume we’re not going to tear them apart when there are gaps so huge in their logic, it makes the Grand Canyon look like an anal fissure on Bill Donohue’s much abused ass.

  194. #196 Theodore
    July 11, 2008

    I wonder if a church would actually pay a ransom for a wafer. Could be easy money. Don’t even see a law that would be broken.

  195. #197 Mena
    July 11, 2008

    pbnj, yet again saying something that only makes sense to him/her:
    Yes, because atheists sending death threats to theists has NEVER, EVER happened. EVER.

    “I’ve never seen an atheist send a death threat to a theist, so obviously no atheist has ever done so.”

    Obviously, atheists have the monopoly on logical fallacies.

    Do you have any real world examples? Have you ever seen an atheist send a death threat to anyone or was it just a friend of a friend of your cousin’s best man’s sister’s god daughter’s cousin who heard something about that? Apparently in your world, the logic goes something like this:
    “I’ve never seen an atheist send a death threat to a theist, so obviously atheists do so.”
    I never claimed that we had the monopoly on logic, and it bugs me when people here do that. But hey, why worry about facts when you can just assume stuff about people and get all hot and bothered about it. Rage, rage, rage!!!!!!

  196. #198 Michelle
    July 11, 2008

    Damn right you should increase security! I’m gonna steal all your crackers right here from my lazy seat in Quebec!

    …Silly christians. They should remember which side is making the death threats.

    Mr. Donohue, since you are obviously reading this… You’re a dangerous freak, leading a sect of blind lapdog fools that would KILL for you, and you should be arrested. Not us.

  197. #199 Bad
    July 11, 2008

    When was this link from the university webpage removed, exactly? Recently, like in response to this controversy? Or is Donahue spinning that so that he can tell his supporters that he’s accomplished something.

  198. #200 judgemc
    July 11, 2008

    OMgravey! YOu have really hit the big time now. The nutballs over at freerepublic are debating about whether or not you have commited a hate crime.
    http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2044104/posts

  199. #201 Ragutis
    July 11, 2008

    There were tornadoes in Minnesota today. No doubt they’ll be blaming those on you as well. Wrath of Gawd and all that.

  200. #202 Reginald Selkirk
    July 11, 2008

    I think I perceive the problem. It’s not that you offended Catholicism, it’s that you insulted Bill Donohue. He is apparently willing to use any power or any apparatus with which he is entrusted to strike out at his perceived enemies. He’s also a raving bag of nuts.

  201. #203 Soybomb
    July 11, 2008

    So whats the lesson in all this? Never spit but always swallow the essence of your savior? There’s got to be a t-shirt in that.

  202. #204 JoJo
    July 11, 2008

    “Of that ilk” means “of the same.” It refers to the leader of a Scottish clan and his followers. “The Campbell of that ilk” is Laird Ian Campbell, head of the Campbell clan.

    All hail PZ Myers of that ilk.

  203. #205 qbsmd
    July 11, 2008

    Catholics aren’t known for voting Republican. I wonder how much effect this incident could have on the election. Chaos theory and unintended consequences FTW.

  204. #206 Michelle
    July 11, 2008

    @JudgeMC: He’s certainly got the hate but there’s no crime. Sucks to be them!

    I love hatred.

  205. #207 Kristine
    July 11, 2008

    Googling “C.J. Simones” is enlightening.

  206. #208 astrobiologiste
    July 11, 2008

    In regards to cracker gate. It’s actually their own fault. By mere prejudice and an obsession for keeping everything antiseptic, they started giving people the wafers in their hands, instead of placing in their mouths, like we do in inmunnologically sound Mexico.

    Go back to putting them directly in people’s mouths, and see what hard a time they have to take it out of there and steal it…

    Really, it is getting way out of hand, mostly because some people have busted sarcasm-meters…

  207. #209 Zonotrichia
    July 11, 2008

    I hereby declare a Fatwa against all saltines, Cheese Nips, Wheat Thins and other crunchy flour disks not containing yeast that attend the GOP convention. It is henceforth the duty of all rational Minnesotans to chew them up and swallow them. Praise be to the great and mighty FSM.

  208. #210 Feynmaniac
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston concern trolled #175,
    As a follow up – let’s all give a big thanks to the great and esteemed PZ Myers. Now all atheists will be viewed as petty thieves trying to steal consecrated communion wafers.
    PZ you’re fired as my PR agent.

    PZ has never tried to be a representative of atheism. He is simply an atheist with a blog. The fact that he has a high following speaks to the fact that alot of atheist agree with him. If you don’t, good for you. Start your own blog on spout what you think the right prejudices of atheist should be.

    Also, PZ just said was “Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?”. He never advocated stealing. How can you steal something that the priest gives to you?

  209. #211 Gavel Down
    July 11, 2008

    qbsmd – Bill Donahue is hardly universally loved among liberal catholics. I bet they’re hoping he goes away.

  210. #212 BMcP
    July 11, 2008

    Although now I have achieved the status of “ilk” I have yet to achieve official “minion” status, how does one go about doing that? Eating lots of crackers? ;)

  211. #213 Mika H
    July 11, 2008

    michel (#194):

    Yeah, it’s pretty safe to say that more people will find Pharyngula thanks to the Catholic League press releases, than ever did through the university links.

  212. #214 Kseniya
    July 11, 2008

    C.J.Simones

    LOL!

  213. #215 qbsmd
    July 11, 2008

    More Koran Envy @ #63. Anyone keeping tally?

    Posted by: Rey Fox

    Here is a good response to Koran Envy.
    http://anarchangel.blogspot.com/2005/06/team-infidel.html

  214. #216 mayhempix
    July 11, 2008

    #186 …When I asked about the death threats to PZ by Catholics he ignored me sand said he was everything leaving it up to the authorities and hung up.
    Posted by: mayhempix | July 11, 2008 4:34 PM

    That damn satan is at again making my fingers do his bidding.

    Make that: … he ignored me and said he was leaving everything up to the authorities and hung up.

  215. #217 Carlie
    July 11, 2008

    Crackers with calamari. :)

  216. #218 AJ Milne
    July 11, 2008

    Do you have any real world examples? Have you ever seen an atheist send a death threat to anyone or was it just a friend of a friend of your cousin’s best man’s sister’s god daughter’s cousin who heard something about that? Apparently in your world, the logic goes something like this: “I’ve never seen an atheist send a death threat to a theist, so obviously atheists do so.”

    Now, Mena, you must realize that this is Sophisticated Theology(TM) we’re dealing with here, not logic. And under Sophisticated Theology(TM), our troll needs no positive evidence that PZ and a ravening horde of zombie atheists are spoiling to beat up Catholics. See, under Sophisticated Theology(TM), if you can imagine something to be true, even in a complete absence of evidence, you don’t need evidence for it. You just have to formulate your claim in such a fashion that your opponent cannot precisely disprove the claim (yes, the one for which you actually have no evidence), however outlandish it might be…

    Now, I know this is confusing. So perhaps an example will help:

    Let’s say someone swipes yer wallet. You chase him down the beach, try to grab him… He trips, you get him down, try to get it back…

    Coupla bystanders run up, figure it’s just a brawl, separate you…

    Then the crook says the whole thing was a frameup. A giant purple dragon actually done it, handed it him, then disappeared. He was running from the dragon, not you…

    See, the bystanders, being reasonable people, will have to accept this. It’s Sophisticated Theology(TM), see? And formally, under Sophisticated Theology(TM) they can’t disprove the crook’s claim, however bonkers it may sound to you.

    Ergo: riot cops at the convention.

    Really, it all makes sense.

  217. #219 donna
    July 11, 2008

    I am devouring Cheez-Its as I read this to save us all from them.

    My son and I realized though the reason they use those bland flavorless communion crackers. It would be really awkward to walk up to the priest and ask for a second helping of the host….

  218. #220 Helioprogenus
    July 11, 2008

    What’s with all the Catholic Apologists in these threads crying about how we’re tearing your beliefs apart. Why wouldn’t we, when you so clearly cherish imaginary bullshit. Indoctrination is a difficult concept to break away from, but you have to at least recognize that under different circumstances, you would be arguing about how prophet mohammed can help stear us towards glory with virgins, or that slapping on a tiny hat on our heads will show some imaginary deity that we’re subservient to his imaginary power of control over us, or that by eating a hamburger, we’re consuming the tasty and oh so scrumptious flesh of our gods, or that by reciting the same sound over and over again, we’ll be closer to every living thing in the universe, etc… All you fuckers are the same in that your indoctrinated bullshit is ingrained so deep, you can’t break free from it; yet had you been raised in a different environment, your tune would be completely different as well. You’ll laugh behind the backs of Jehova’s witnesses or Mormons, but your beliefs are not less stupid. You drink the blood and consume the flesh of that which you believe to be your god, who’s been dead for over two millenia, with his actual existence disuptable because of the paltry sources from some useless corner of the then Roman world. Just step back from your abject stupidity, and look at the idiocy of your belief structure, and then if you don’t find the humor in it, you can continue to live your life wasting your time believing in an half-rate imaginary story.

  219. #221 MarleysGh0st
    July 11, 2008

    As a result of the hysteria that Myers’ ilk have promoted, at least one public official is taking it seriously. Thomas E. Foley is chairman of Virginia’s First Congressional District Republican Committee, a delegate to the Republican National Convention and one of two Republican at large nominees for Virginia’s Electoral College

    This make him an party official. To be a public official, wouldn’t he have to hold an elected, appointed or civil service position in the state?

    P.S. Have I become one of the ilk by posting in this thread or is there a more elaborate initiation ritual?

  220. #222 JoJo
    July 11, 2008

    Catholics aren’t known for voting Republican.

    Bill Donohue is an unabashed neocon. In both the 2000 and 2004 elections he strongly and loudly supported Bush.

    There’s nobody in the United States Senate who has a more radical voting record on abortion than John Kerry. He’s never found an abortion that he couldn’t justify.

    I’m saying if a Catholic votes for Kerry because they support him on abortion rights that is to cooperate in evil.

    …most observers, regardless of their political bent, agree that President George W. Bush seems at home with his Christianity.

    George W. Bush can be counted upon to do what is Christian. That’s what all Catholics, indeed all Christians, need to know about him.

  221. #223 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    Feynmaniac

    Taking something under false pretenses is just that. Theft.

    Does anyone see that it’s insulting to ask for a gift that you’re going to destroy. I think the Catholics look like a bunch of lunatics, but PZ is just adding to the lunacy.

    Come on people get some common sense.

    PZ clear the public record. The balls in your court now.

  222. #224 Damian
    July 11, 2008

    This thread is pretty damn hilarious. I must congratulate the participants for helping to maintain the 100% (as far as I am aware) ratio of Catholics who couldn’t give a rats ass about death threats — well, PZ is probably making it all up, right? — but cannot control their rage over the fact that a cracker was threatened with molestation.

    One of them has even suggested that the reason that PZ has gone on to commit a suicide bombing is because they have been praying for him! (well, kind of)

  223. #225 Kristine
    July 11, 2008

    Now we just have to wait for your next post from the Minneapolis Apple Store about how you tried to crash the RNC, and they stopped you, but let Richard Dawkins in.

    PZ – *cough cough* hot air balloon *cough cough!*

    I didn’t think of this before – I hope that none of the Catholic Leaguers flying in for the RNC has to go to the bathroom!

  224. #226 Spook
    July 11, 2008

    Alex @ #131

    Oh come on now. I think we’ve at least reached the classification of “hoards of commenters”.

    I prefer “legion” of commenters. :D

  225. #227 mayhempix
    July 11, 2008

    #191 Brownian, OM | July 11, 2008 4:38 PM

    LOL!

    Thanks for explaining it.

  226. #228 Alex
    July 11, 2008

    Thanks for the clarification AJ. It all makes sense now thanks to you. Sophisticated Theology – why, it’s simple really!

  227. #229 Eamon Knight
    July 11, 2008

    As a result of the hysteria that Myers’ ilk have promoted…

    It’s a typo. s/ilk/ink/ — very scarey, when the Squid Overlord blows his Ink Cloud of Doom at you.
    Seriously though: I would never have heard of The Great Florida Cracker Caper if Donohue and a few of his co-religionists hadn’t made a big fuss over it. If he wants to see hysteria-mongering, he should look in the mirror.

  228. #230 PZ Myers
    July 11, 2008

    Anybody who meets me can ask for my business card. It’s a bit larger than a communion wafer and more colorful, but it probably has the same flavor.

    You will then be obligated to treat it reverentially. It is a little piece of Me, after all. I will be deeply offended if you throw it away, or mount it on a dartboard, or spit on it. In fact, I expect you to put it in a golden monstrance and display it in your home.

    What? It’s just a piece of cardboard? Heretic!

  229. #231 sp greenlaw
    July 11, 2008

    @ keith #283
    “I remain disappointed that PZ’s liver, pancreas, lungs, and brain haven’t exploded with virulent forms of cancer yet but perhaps before long. I’m keeping an extra hundred dollar bill handy to buy a few rounds of beers in a local pub in great celebration.”

    As someone who just watched his mother die due to cancer in the lungs, liver, and elsewhere, I feel the need to ask you if you know just how awful the suffering brought about by this disease is. Do you?

    If not, then I would suggest reading a book or two on the subject before you condemn someone to what amounts to hell on earth. (Of course, the group you are defending frequently condemns people to an eternity of hell. Pleasant.)

    If yes, then a trip to the psychiatric ward is in order, you twisted little shit.

  230. #232 Itzac
    July 11, 2008

    Does the US have a right to freedom of assembly? Does that freedom include a box of Ritz? You could all protest outside the RNC by quietly and sullenly eating crackers in twos or threes on every street corner for a few blocks surrounding the event.

  231. #233 yakaru
    July 11, 2008

    These people are dangerous. Take care.

  232. #234 TSC
    July 11, 2008

    Benny want a cracker??

  233. #235 Richard Wolford
    July 11, 2008

    I for one am proud to be ‘ilk’, and I humbly welcome my new Cephalopod Overlord.

  234. #236 spgreenlaw
    July 11, 2008

    Oh dear, I’ve gone and dumped my comment in the wrong place. Sorry, just a bit overwhelmed by the stupidity of people.

  235. #237 qbsmd
    July 11, 2008

    qbsmd – Bill Donahue is hardly universally loved among liberal catholics. I bet they’re hoping he goes away.

    Posted by: Gavel Down

    But how many people will learn the whole story, and how many will just here “durr, Liberals want to oppress Catholics, durr”. I expect evangelicals and republicans to rebroadcast messages like that as often as possible, and eventually Donahue’s comments will be lost in the noise.
    Although, for the majority, you are probably right: liberal Catholics will be liberal.

  236. #238 Rich P.
    July 11, 2008

    “Spare me your self-pitying drivel. For someone that holds Christianity in such contempt you sure nail the part of the martyr. You know darn well there’ll be no Christians issuing fatwas calling for your head to be cut off (or if its Rev. Jackson, other unnecessary appendages).

    If you want to strike a real blow against the oppressive myth of religion and show the true courage of your convictions, why don’t you post a Mohammed caricature doing something unspeakable to a camel?

    You Christian-bashers are all the same: cowardly self-aggrandizers.”

    I apologize to Prof. Myers if I am wrong here, but I honestly think he would wear a declaration of fatwa or jihad or whatever the term is as a badge of honor, or at the very least find it amusing.

  237. #239 Michelle
    July 11, 2008

    @230: What, I can’t eat it?!

    I want you inside of m- wait I’m not saying that.

  238. #240 Kylgar
    July 11, 2008

    Wow, I would find this absolutely hilarious if it wasn’t actually happening. Instead, I’m just more and more fearful of the power and popularity of the American Taliban…

  239. #241 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    Locusts? Lame. I was hoping you would go for some originality.

    For example, combining a high-level Teleport spell with Cloudkill (D&D 3.5 version) to wipe out the entire convention, then creating Undead generals to turn the entire populace into an undead army. THAT would be awesome.

  240. #242 RAM
    July 11, 2008

    Typical Republican Christian spin.
    1. Cause hate and discontent.
    2. Feign shock and indignation when someone questions or ridicules their exceedingly silly superstitions.
    3. Call in armed forces to surround them from the imagined evil people around them, with much fanfare,
    4. Gnash teeth and rend hair on how poor helpless Christians, who only want to love their fellow man, are being persecuted.

    I’ll bet this will be on Fox News soon as the “evil Atheist conspiracy” against

  241. #243 Sandi
    July 11, 2008

    After reading Myers’ illogical, vitriolic, and puerile rants against Catholics, I’ve come to the realization that he must be partially right about evolution. I don’t know about the rest of us folks, but he is most certainly just a few swings away from being a monkey!! You Myers groupies are so incredibly hate-filled and intolerant. What a bunch of bigots.

  242. #244 Michelle
    July 11, 2008

    @Sandi: You call us bigots? You’re a God groupie! He’s the biggest bigot of ‘em all! Read the bible!

  243. #245 Reginald Selkirk
    July 11, 2008

    Bill Donohue’s never heard of PZ? Geez, Ben Stein can’t get anyone to see his movie.

    The Catholic League web site ran a review of Expelled back in April, but it was apparently written not by BillD but by Kiera McCaffrey, “the Catholic League’s director of communications.”

  244. #246 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    “After reading Myers’ illogical, vitriolic, and puerile rants against Catholics, I’ve come to the realization that he must be partially right about evolution. I don’t know about the rest of us folks, but he is most certainly just a few swings away from being a monkey!! You Myers groupies are so incredibly hate-filled and intolerant. What a bunch of bigots.”

    Hate-filled? Intolerant? The CATHOLICS are the ones sending HIM death threats. What part of that doesn’t register in your brain?

  245. #247 Kseniya
    July 11, 2008

    Keith Eaton is mentally ill. Ignore him.

    Oh, wait… he’s walking around loose?

    Shit.

  246. #248 Rol
    July 11, 2008

    Someone should make some toilet paper with alternating images of jesus and mohammad on it, maybe with zeus, odin, and thor on it too, just so they don’t feel left out.

  247. #249 dinkum
    July 11, 2008

    Hey, Sandy!
    Logic: Ur doin’ it rong.

  248. #250 Theodore
    July 11, 2008

    Hey – I have a great idea! Let’s harass the Olive Garden. His Noodly Appendages are being desecrated there.

    Same as the wafer. Right?

  249. #251 kubenzi
    July 11, 2008

    start posting the emails PZ.

    srsly

  250. #252 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    PZ

    Yes, you are not your business card. If you irrationally get your sense of identity from your business card then you’re really kind of crazy.

    However, if I come up to you and get you to give me your business card when otherwise you’d tell me to shove off by the use of false pretenses then I’ve done something that is flat out wrong.

    That’s what you’ve done. Just like it was wrong the way the Expelled people got interviews with Dawkins etc., what (on the surface) your post seems to request is for people to go into Catholic churches and under false pretenses take what they view as precious.

    It’s wrong. It’s stupid. It’s just abusive. Are you too wrapped up in being PZ Myers the famous atheist to see this?

    If you are then your business card has more moral value than you.

  251. #253 Alex
    July 11, 2008

    Sandi @ 243

    Deities are not real. The things your tradition espouses are false. You can not show otherwise. Followers of your tradition have made death threats because a bunch of us SAY you all are retarded morons for following your ancient, misinformed, tradition. Who’s the bigot? You want us killed to speaking our mind? You’re a fuck-twit. How do those words make you feel? I bet you’d love to flay me alive, wouldn’t you?

  252. #254 Brownian, OM
    July 11, 2008

    Not a problem, mayhempix. I used to be a Catholic. In fact, I even have a golden medallion presented to me by the Archbishop of Lithuania after I served Mass for him when he came to Edmonton. Thank God for Catholic ritual, as I don’t speak a word of Lithuanian but still knew when to ring the bells.

    What part of that doesn’t register in your brain?

    Kobra, by inquiring as to what ‘registers’ in a Goddist’s brain (especially one that thinks that evolution=humans from monkeys) you’re committing the logical fallacy known as ‘begging the question.’

  253. #255 Feynmaniac
    July 11, 2008

    Does anyone see that it’s insulting to ask for a gift that you’re going to destroy

    As opposed to cannabalizing it and then turning it into shit?

  254. #256 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston: You should learn not to take things too seriously; be it yourself or words on the internet.

  255. #257 Blake Stacey
    July 11, 2008

    If AOL gives me a CD in the expectation that I’ll put it in my computer and join their service, is it theft if I use it as a coaster instead?

  256. #258 Neural Transmissions
    July 11, 2008

    You gotta love this line:

    By the way, Myers says he is delighted to have finally garnered my attention. Too bad I can’t say the same–I never heard of the guy until yesterday.

    Yeah, well more people have heard of Charles Manson that Bill Donohue, but that’s not necessarily a good thing.

    As for desecrating a wafer, why not just buy some online and do something to them? Who will know the difference? In fact, it’s a great way to get the point across.

    I can say a few words in Pig Latin and wave my hand over my cat, thus declaring it to be a dog. Sure it looks like a cat and acts like a cat, and if you sequenced some of it’s DNA, it would come back as cat DNA. But it’s a dog I tell you. Why? Because I performed magik! Not that silly James Randi crap. I mean real magik!

  257. #259 OctoberMermaid
    July 11, 2008

    I don’t think armed guards and increased security are going to protect them from us saying mean things about them and poking fun at their superstitions.

    I mean, WE’RE not the ones making the death threats, after all.

  258. #260 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    “Kobra, by inquiring as to what ‘registers’ in a Goddist’s brain (especially one that thinks that evolution=humans from monkeys) you’re committing the logical fallacy known as ‘begging the question.’”

    Yes, I see. How silly of me.

  259. #261 Brownian, OM
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston, you are aware that student in question brought the host with him back to his seat to show a friend what the big deal is about for which he received death threats, are you not?

  260. #262 Alex
    July 11, 2008

    ” Does anyone see that it’s insulting to ask for a gift that you’re going to destroy…”

    Again, no one has the right to not be insulted. And since when does an (verbal) insult warrant death? Such evil rationalizations you religionists are capable of.

  261. #263 Infophile
    July 11, 2008

    I think I see where this is going: It’s a legal ploy to try to force PZ to have to pay Canadian taxes and thus go broke.

    Then again, all the popularity these blog posts are generating might just cover that; however little the stipend from Seed must be, the raw volume here is amazing.

  262. #264 will
    July 11, 2008

    Replace Eucharist with Koran and every one of you would be apoplectic over our lack of reverence for the Muslim holy book. But a revered Catholic symbol, not so much right. You’ve spun yourself into irrelevance. I’ve heard more reason from 12 yr olds.

  263. #265 Artoo45
    July 11, 2008

    Enough with the holy Jeebus crackers already! What about all those fine Kosher items in the supermarket? They’ve had magic spells said over them and the Jews don’t seem to mind god-free heathens purchasing and consuming them. Oh no you DIT’NT mess with my Hebrew National hotdogs!

  264. #266 Jaytee
    July 11, 2008

    I think the best thing that may come out of this really enjoyable little kerfuffle, will be that hoards of catholics who didn’t realise cannabalism was mandatory may now decide to give up their religion.

  265. #267 Valmorian
    July 11, 2008

    “Replace Eucharist with Koran and every one of you would be apoplectic over our lack of reverence for the Muslim holy book.”

    You haven’t read this blog much, have you?

  266. #268 Chris Bell
    July 11, 2008

    By “King Kong theory” I think he means that we think we’re just super-apes.

    …Which we do think, I guess.

  267. #269 Russell Stewart
    July 11, 2008

    Wait.

    These guys completely fail at security. Shouldn’t they be deploying their security forces to protect their magical crackers? That’s the real threat, isn’t it?

  268. #270 Jaytee
    July 11, 2008

    I think the best thing that may come out of this really enjoyable little kerfuffle, will be that hoards of catholics who didn’t realise cannabalism was mandatory may now decide to give up their religion.

  269. #271 Eli
    July 11, 2008

    Sigh. It can, and probably will, get more insane although I’m not sure that anyone really wants to see that. When Christians — especially Catholics — decide that they’re going to bitch about something, they have a pretty lulz-killing strength about it.

    That is, I think this is becoming way more of an issue than anyone intended. I’m just waiting for McCain to bring it up at the convention, for that’s when we’ll know things have become totally insane.

    Keep it up, PZ. You’re absolutely right.

  270. #272 Phil Gramm
    July 11, 2008

    Christ on a Cracker, what a bunch of whiners.

  271. #273 Reginald Selkirk
    July 11, 2008

    pbnj: The remark about my backyard is amusing — Minneapolis is 150 miles away. It’s also more towards one side of my house; I think Iowa would be my backyard, while Canada is my front yard. I sure hope I don’t get assessed for property taxes on the entire upper midwest.

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/12/spend_easter_in_minneapolis.php

    Everyone ought to mark their calendars: on the weekend of 21-23 March, the 34th Annual National Conference of American Atheists will be held in lovely Minneapolis, Minnesota — my backyard.

    *snicker* PZ, you dumbass.

    Donohue: Too bad I can’t say the same–I never heard of the guy until yesterday.”

    So you think Donohue pulled that “backyard” reference from a 2007 posting on Pharyngula, even though he had supposedly never heard of PZ until yesterday? Does your theory also involve the Illuminati? All the best conspiracy theories do.

  272. #274 Neural Transmissions
    July 11, 2008

    Will @ 264

    Nonsense. We were just as critical of the hysterical reaction of the Muslim community over those Danish cartoons. Many of the more famous atheists, including Harris and Dawkins, have called their reaction ridiculous.

  273. #275 Ad Hominid
    July 11, 2008

    “They are increasing security at the Republican convention out of fear of ME?”

    Facts matter, PZ and other ilksters. The story does not say that the GOP is increasing security because of alleged anti-Catholic threats, it only says that this pandering nutjob Foley has requested such an increase. Whatever you think of the GOP, it is a fair bet that the convention’s security people know what they are doing.
    They will probably genuflect to Foley’s request because of his august position, then offer a guarantee that in fact no mob of bloodthirsty anti-Catholic heathens will be allowed to harm one hair of his comb-over. They will then go back to considering real threats.

    As for whether it can get any crazier, it just did:
    Has Professor Myers engaged in a hate crime? The poster goes on for some length about the definition of a hate crime, and demands that PZ be prosecuted forthwith, but neglects to tell us how tormenting the wafer is a crime in the first place. Note that comment #6 adds a barely veiled death threat.

  274. #276 Sauceress
    July 11, 2008

    Things may have changed, but I thought (from a few forum discussions I read a few years back) that the majority of the official Catholic institution distanced itself from the CC? I’d got the impression that CC were somewhat of an embarrassment to the main company? Had a look at the Wiki on it but it’s a bit ambiguous on that front.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_League_(U.S.)

    It’s probably come up somewhere, but I gave up trying to read ALL the posts about a 1000 or so posts back. :)

  275. #277 MikeM
    July 11, 2008

    #264: Where there’s a will, there’s a wrong.

  276. #278 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    @ 264

    Try reading a few of the posts in this thread on the subject of Muslim Envy. This argument got old about 2,000 posts ago.

    It doesn’t matter. Cracker, book, beaded necklace, little gold pendant, depressing visage of a dead guy hanging on the wall…it’s all same no matter whom claims it’s holy/divine/whatever.

  277. #279 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    Alex

    For gosh sakes I’m an atheist too. You bunch of mindless sycophants don’t see what sort of hurtful crap you’re supporting.

    I admire PZ for taking the fight against science to those “religionists.” However, until he publicly states that he isn’t advocating people to attempt to infiltrate Catholic churches, he is just flat out wrong.

    For better or worse, I do understand why Donahue is so up in arms. On the other hand, I agree with 90% of what PZ said.

    PZ has said in an online interview with a Minnesota paper that he was only engaging in satire. However, until he clears this up on his forum, I’ll stick by my analysis and call BS on Mr. Ego aka PZ Myers.

  278. #280 Dutch Delight
    July 11, 2008

    It’s high time we hear from the pope, a good part of his flock seems set to convert to islam judging from their posts here.

  279. #281 yakaru
    July 11, 2008

    The catholic church is a global paedophile ring. No catholic has any business worrying about what may be done to a cookie until they face up to the evil that their filthy perverted religion is spreading through the world. Their pope is a protector of peadophiles and most probably a paedophile himself. No catholic has any right to say anything on moral issues until they publically denounce their pope and taken a closer look at their local priest.

  280. #282 Bronze Dog
    July 11, 2008

    *If* there were any atheists giving out death threats (which I think is quite reasonable to doubt, given my experience), they deserve the maximum slap the law can give.

    Now let’s hear the Catholics say the same for their side. Quite frankly, I think they should be focusing their efforts demanding their church promise to investigate any further Catholic-originating threats and excommunicate the offenders. If we had any such organization, I’d be pushing for the same.

    Instead, I only see one or two Catholics willing to denounce this terrorism. The rest whine and whine and whine about how rude we are, calling for a ban on speech.

    If I were to hypothetically come across an atheist who made similar death threats on my blog, I’d ban them within moments. That’s what this is about: Death threats from would-be terrorists, just like it was with the Danish cartoons and violent extremist Muslims who were making public threats. There are so many Catholics showing up here who want to pretend that death threats and physical violence are trivial in the face of ‘rudeness’.

  281. #283 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    [The catholic church is a global paedophile ring.]

    I stopped reading after this point because the fallacy overloaded my bullshit detector.

    NAMBLA is a pedophile ring. The sect of Jews who suck the blood off a child’s penis after circumcision is a pedophile ring. The Catholic Church is a business that takes your money and gives you plain old fashioned bullshit.

  282. #284 Facehammer
    July 11, 2008

    Excuse me while I give a hearty belly laugh, long and loud.

    Let them keep digging themselves ever deeper into this preposterous hole, I say. It would be one of the great cosmic ironies if all this hysterical bluster to try to protect their outraged, violated dignity ended up causing them a major loss of respect.

  283. #285 RAM
    July 11, 2008

    So let me see if I follow this;
    1. Believers of bronze age myth claim cracker and dead savior’s blood literally turn into flesh and blood of said dead savior after priest mutters magic incantation.
    2. Rational thinking people question silly/scary ritual of cannibalistic ritual.
    3. Member of ritual cannibal group claims questioners are incredibly hate-filled and intolerant of not understanding and questioning reality of cracker/flesh magic transformation.
    Did I miss something?

  284. #286 Alan
    July 11, 2008

    PZ,
    For what it’s worth, most of the Catholics I know (myself included) would stand with you before we stood with Donahue on any issue – he isn’t well liked.

    I honestly didn’t know that Donahue was an IDiot – which is especially strange as the Church’s official position is that evolution and the Catholic faith are completely compatible.

    I may not agree with your statement asking for Eucharists to desecrate, but I would at most attempt to open communication to ask for you to consider that what is worthless to you is meaningful to a great number of people. You are, however, completely free to do whatever you choose, and I’d stand up to defend not only your right to point out the ridiculousness of our beliefs, but also your right to be free from violence, or even threats of violence, for pointing such things out.

  285. #287 yakaru
    July 11, 2008

    @Kobra
    Partly you’re right – forgot to mention the business.

  286. #288 Helioprogenus
    July 11, 2008

    #279, Ron in Houston, you obviously are not an atheist. Who cares what PZ said about some imaginary piece of shit belief? If he had said the same thing about some shamanistic bullcrap, you wouldn’t care less. What offends you delicate sensibilities? The fact that PZ and his “ilk” are willing to trample all over some hypocritical, supposedly sanctimonious garbage that does not deserve the respect that some of you apologists bestow upon it. What does it matter what edict the fucking Pope says? He’s a fallible human being, just as fallible as you or I, but some idiots treat him like a bridge to an imaginary deity. How can you not feel the weight of bullshit, and the only way to plow out of it is through logic, humour, satire, and a heafty dose of realism.

  287. #289 Norman Doering
    July 11, 2008

    PZ asked:

    Can this possibly get more insane?

    Oh, yes! It certainly can and will get more insane. Seriously, you’ve only scratched the surface. Wait until the FBI shows up and when you hear those clicking sounds on your phone, remember, the telecom companies aren’t going to be charged for illegal wire tapping.

    Obviously, crackers is merely a code word for people you think are a bit cracked and thus threatening to abuse a cracker must mean you mean to abuse them.

  288. #290 Alex
    July 11, 2008

    Ron,

    I’ll respectfully disagree.

    I don’t need PZ to tell me to infiltrate and take the god crackers. And IMO there’s nothing wrong with him doing so because no crime is being committed. Nothing. Nada. All that is happening is some people that espouse indefensible ideas are not able to defend their indefensible ideas and are getting their feelings hurt because their indefensible ideas are so feeble that they have to make death threats in order to protect them.

    Maybe THEY should do some introspection and either get a thicker skin or better yet, start espousing ideas that can compete in an arena of rational debate.

    No one has the right to not be insulted.

  289. #291 Mike N.
    July 11, 2008

    #113 (pbnj):

    Holy crap! How out of context can you take PZ’s quote? You were good enough to copy:

    Everyone ought to mark their calendars: on the weekend of 21-23 March, the 34th Annual National Conference of American Atheists will be held in lovely Minneapolis, Minnesota — my backyard.

    But then left out the very next sentence:

    Well, my distant backyard.

  290. #292 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    @287 (that is the accepted standard, right?):

    It’s a gross over-generalization to say that the Catholic Church as a whole is a “paedophile ring.”

  291. #293 Longstreet63
    July 11, 2008

    PZ–I suspect the “150 miles = back yard” refers to the range of your Weapons of Mass Destruction, which, as a (mad) scientist (and is there any other kind?), you obviously have. And given the Republicans’ status as Heroic Defenders of All That is Good, it is obvious that you plan to crush them once they are lured into range, slaughtering them all and desecrating their cookies without thought for innocent bystanders.

    My advice? Keep an eye out for dapper secret agents infiltrating your island volcano compound mere minutes before the launch. When you see them, don’t talk–shoot.

    Yes, I know it seems unlikely that PZ lives in a lavishly-equipped bunker underneath an island volcano in Morris, Minnesota with death rays and theatre-range nucle–sorry, ATOMIC–weapons, killer robots, and an army of interchangeable minions (not to mention the tank of killer squid).

    But so what? The other guys think a baked snack food is God.

    Steve “Respect my Beliefs, Bigots!” James

  292. #294 b_nichol
    July 11, 2008

    To be fair, Dr Myers did threaten to do harm to a cracker.

    Threatening a cracker. Like in ‘Pulp Fiction’ when Ving Rhames’ character is going call up some brothers with some pliers and a blowtorch?

    Oh. Not that type of cracker.

    Never mind.

  293. #295 ddr
    July 11, 2008

    Letter of protest sent to Thomas Foley, martom@oasisonline.com

  294. #296 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    Kobra

    i understand that PZ didn’t actively advocate for people to go into Catholic churches and steal their communion wafers. However, that was following his public statements that he was engaging in satire.

    Unless and until someone “connects the dots,” on the surface it appears that PZ is doing just that. It appears that PZ is saying, “please my dear readers, get me that dumb-ass cracker so I can do un-natural acts to it online.”

    Just as we see the hypocrisy in “hate the sin but love the sinner” there is a distinct hypocrisy in “ridicule the belief but not the believer.”

    It’s BS and PZ needs to set the public record straight.

  295. #297 ThinkingManNeil
    July 11, 2008

    Attention RC cracker fetishists and GOP christofascists!

    - cue scary music! -

    I…am… AN ATHEIST! A SECULAR HUMANIST! A LIBERAL! A LOVER OF SCIENCE! I EVEN LIKE TRANSGENDERED WOMEN!!! BOOGA! BOOGA! SCARY STUFF, KIDS!!!

    Now, would you all just kindly GET THE HELL OVER YOURSELVES AND GROW THE FUCK UP?!?!?

    N.!

  296. #298 MikeM
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston, you’re wrong. You won’t find anyone who rejects the existence of a spirit world more than me. I don’t believe there is one, period.

    Yet, I completely reject the idea of infiltrating Catholic churches to kidnap more meaty bits. I strongly suggest we not do that. I suspect most of us feel the same way. Trust me, I have no intention of entering a Catholic church at any point in the future. It won’t happen.

    This is about speaking out against an organization that is accusing the student of a hate crime. You need to look up a few definitions; assault, kidnapping, hate crime… The charges do not fit.

    Was it irreverant? Yes. Was it funny? I didn’t find it so.

    Was it a crime? No. It does not fit the definition of crime.

    When I was a Catholic, I always figured that the consecration of the host was symbolic. I never thought people thought they were actually eating the meat of Jesus. Indeed, no such transformation takes place. You can prove that. And even that doesn’t take away from the “holiness” of the Eucharist; a symbolic transformation ain’t bad in my book. It helps them remember their Savior.

    Did the student sign a contract that he’d eat the host? If so, yeah, I guess he violated the terms of that contract. Show me where he guaranteed he’d eat it, and not take it home. It was given to him; it was his property. In my mind, it was just a consecrated cracker.

    I absolutely guarantee you one thing: If the GOP spends extra money to guard Catholic churches in Minnesota during the convention, it will be wasted money. I hope some of the extra security guards they hire are atheists. I’d say it’s a lock some of them will be.

    Sorry to go on. Enjoy your weekend.

  297. #299 yorktank
    July 11, 2008

    For gosh sakes I’m an atheist too. You bunch of mindless sycophants don’t see what sort of hurtful crap you’re supporting.

    I admire PZ for taking the fight against science to those “religionists.” However, until he publicly states that he isn’t advocating people to attempt to infiltrate Catholic churches, he is just flat out wrong.

    For better or worse, I do understand why Donahue is so up in arms. On the other hand, I agree with 90% of what PZ said.

    PZ has said in an online interview with a Minnesota paper that he was only engaging in satire. However, until he clears this up on his forum, I’ll stick by my analysis and call BS on Mr. Ego aka PZ Myers.

    Golly Ron, you are contradiction personified!

    You’ve used several comments to defend your trivial objection that taking a cracker, which is freely distributed, is somehow theft and yet have the gall to call PZ “Mr. Ego?”

    Oh and what’s this “hurtful crap” nonsense. As the post that started this all noted, it’s a frackin’ cracker!

    As we are fond of saying around here: You’re concern is noted…and stupid.

    P.S. I like the phrase “infiltrate Catholic churces.” It makes me feel like an atheist ninja.

  298. #300 JoJo
    July 11, 2008

    That the Catholic Church is a pedophile ring is an exaggeration. It’s estimated that less than 4% of all North American priests are pedophiles. However, to say that many if not most Catholic bishops are pedophile protectors is not an exaggeration.

    BTW, Donahue doesn’t really see a problem with either the pedophile priests or their bishops. He’s mainly concerned with outside insults to Catholicism. Insults and outright outrages coming from within are less important to him.

  299. #301 Reginald
    July 11, 2008

    I flushed a blessed cracker down the toilet once. It is still there because it’s not Jesus. If it were, maybe it could’ve floated up to Heaven before I flushed it.

    Just another vestige of the church completely mired in fecal matter.

  300. #302 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    Alex

    I’m sorry for your belief. You’re really no better than them.

  301. #303 Jason
    July 11, 2008

    All kneel before General Zod…erm, I mean Zed.

    Lord Zed, please use your powers to trap the RNC in the Phantom Zone. I shall offer you a sacrifice of Wheat Thins and boxed wine.

    I look forward to a new age ruled by your iron tentacle.

  302. #304 Sauceress
    July 11, 2008

    Ad Hominid #275

    “Has Professor Myers engaged in a hate crime?”

    Linky no work! :(

  303. #305 Nick Gotts
    July 11, 2008

    Here’s a quote from C.J. simones on another blog: “It’s hard to get the point of your blog. Are you mad that Hilldog was somewhere while Bill was – how does it go? – ridin’ dirty? Are you mad that through the Wright stuff we’ve gotten a miniscule insight into Sen. Hussein? Or are you just mad?”

    Elsewhere C.J. Simones claims to be an “Father” C.J. Simones, an Orthodox priest.

    Proud of yourself, “Father”?

  304. #306 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    @300:
    “However, to say that many if not most Catholic bishops are pedophile protectors is not an exaggeration.”

    Valid point.

  305. #307 Brownian, OM
    July 11, 2008

    Replace Eucharist with Koran and every one of you would be apoplectic over our lack of reverence for the Muslim holy book.

    Can you even read, fuckface?

    I’ve heard more reason from 12 yr olds.

    I think you’d have to demonstrate that you know what reason is, dumbfuck. Given the stupidity you vomited forth above (easily refuted by using the search function at top left of this blog and thus demonstrating again that you care more for imaginary individuals than real ones), that’s akin to a plumber claiming the worst cases of endocervical adenocarcinomas are to be found in pre-pubescent boys.

  306. #308 karen marie
    July 11, 2008

    okay, so i’m through approximately comment #586 on the thread posted on 7/10 at 4:18pm when i decided to follow someone’s suggestion to a troll that they google “catholic death threat.”

    very interesting to see what pops up.

    i clicked on a link for a post at “catholic answers” so i can see what kinds of things are being said over there and this is the welcome i get:

    Catholic Answers Forums
    [SNIP]
    You are not logged in or you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
    You are not logged in. Fill in the form at the bottom of this page and try again.
    You may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else’s post or access administrative features or some other privileged system?
    If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.
    [SNIP]
    The administrator may have required you to register before you can view this page.

    http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=3907840

    i guess they need me to give them an active email address they can flog in exchange for me perusing an otherwise public forum.

    and here i was going out of my way to actually read what they’re saying rather than just assume that the trolls and godbots [i lurnd mee uh interntz trudihshun tuhdaa en uh uhrleeurh thred] are even in small part representative of catholics. but i’m turning the other cheek and will not assume such. in spite of their willingless to permit bill donahue and the catholic league [every time i type that, i giggle because each time it sounds more and more like a band name] to speak on their behalf.

    i’ve never been to a rave but the experience of reading well over a thousand posts leaves me feeling like i’ve been at a very, very crowded party in a very large warehouse with very loud music and pulsing lights. it’s hilarious and exhilarating, but i have to pause in respectful silence at the thought of pz myers reading literally the entire multi-thread thread.

    i hope by now most of you have read the further details of this story and understand that webster cook did not set out that morning to steal anything but was assaulted inside the church and left as a result.

    unless webster cook chose to be a nice guy, the layer on of hands could be criminally charged for grabbing his arm and attempting to pry his fingers open.

    the depth of the wrongness here expands as one follows each thread to its original source. the catholic church has definitely come out on the losing end on this one, cut in any one of a number of possible ways.

  307. #309 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    You’re right I’m stupid. You really have a way of advancing the atheist cause with thoughtful dialog. Did PZ advance the cause of atheism? I say no.

    Who’s stupid now?

  308. #310 Dan
    July 11, 2008

    PZ, I am looking forward to what you are going to do next after you finish with the cracker? One possibility is to take the bible or koran and use the pages to wipe your butt and post the images on your site /sarcasm. I am an Atheist and agreed with your first post about the student, but inciting your readers to steal a cracker so you can desecrate it is going a little overboard. While I hope your university president will support you on freedom of speech grounds, if I was him, I would be mighty pissed. Its one thing to be an Atheist another to be a Atheist Zealot. Its like calling the kettle black.

  309. #311 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    @309:
    “Who’s stupid now?”
    US for having to read what YOU write.

  310. #312 Trent Eady
    July 11, 2008

    The farcicality of this ordeal is rising exponentially.

  311. #313 yakaru
    July 11, 2008

    @Kobra,
    You right that it’s an overstatement that the “whole” catholic church is a peadophile. But if you’d read the whole post you’d’ve noticed the context. There is a peadophile ring within the entire church which uses its power and wealth to protect itself. Anyone calling themselves a catholic should take a public stand on child abuse before they complain about potential cracker abuse.

    But I also take your point about my tone.

    Whatever. This would be funny if the crazys didn’t have guns.

  312. #314 Marcus Ranum
    July 11, 2008

    You Myers groupies are so incredibly hate-filled and intolerant. What a bunch of bigots.

    I’m not hate-filled, intolerant, or bigoted. I’m dismissive and contemptuous – it’s a whole different vibe.

  313. #315 craig
    July 11, 2008

    yes, I think its true nobody here will go into a catholic church to get wafers.
    It’s just not worth the bother. And if we really wanted to make some wafer art or something, it’s more convenient and less creepy to order online etc.

    When people here say they are going to torture the holy cookie, it’s just because its funny to see the reaction of the delusional fuckwits.

    Even that gets boring though. Stupidity is so predictable.

    You insane religious dipshits need to come up with a new schtick. Your stuff is getting stale.

  314. #316 Peter B
    July 11, 2008

    Bill Donohue and his ilk don’t seem to care much about athiests receiving death threats on account of his actions. Perhaps he doesn’t actually regard them as human? Unlike the biscuit at the centre of this row. You’re right – utter insanity.

  315. #317 Peter Mc
    July 11, 2008

    I thought Catholics didn’t use protection.

  316. #318 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    @315:

    Stale like a discarded cracker?

  317. #319 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    yorktank

    The fact that you’d consider going into a Catholic church to take a consecrated communion wafer just shows what a morally lacking atheist you are.

  318. #320 raven
    July 11, 2008

    Does the US have a right to freedom of assembly? Does that freedom include a box of Ritz? You could all protest outside the RNC by quietly and sullenly eating crackers in twos or threes on every street corner for a few blocks surrounding the event.

    It’s time people!!! Brilliant idea!!! I’m stealing it!!!!

    It is time for Cracker Ins. In this performance art event, people will gather with boxes and bags of crackers. Toppings and dips are optional but highly encouraged. They will then silently and reverently eat the crackers. Unless they want to talk, drink beverages, or sing hymns about their crackers.

    Ritz are barely OK. A variety of crackers should be available for trades and sharing. Ritz, Cheez It, water, soda, Sociable, Nips, and so on.

    Cracker Ins will have to be combined with other activities. Who would drive miles just to eat crackers with fellow travelers? They would go well with the latest civil or criminal trials of Catholic priests. These are happening on a regular basis.

  319. #321 Keanus
    July 11, 2008

    Bill Donohue and the Catholic League need to get a life. The United States isn’t run by a Christian Taliban, although Bush has surely been trying hard to do that. So until the Christian Taliban do take over, insulting a cracker may seem to be in bad taste in some quarters, but it harms no one, won’t bring the Earth to a standstill, or stop the sun from shining. Life will go on and the Catholic League can continue to believe in any fantasy they like. they just need to understand that the validity of their beliefs exists only in their mind. It doesn’t exist in the minds of non-Catholics, and, I suspect, an awful lot of Catholics.

    The whole episode reminds me of the Catholics who protest at the Planned Parenthood where I escort. A couple of them stick a crucifix in my face whenever I near the public sidewalk. I always ask, “Just let me know when the lightning will strike, so I can seek shelter,” which elicits apoplexy. But I repeatedly point out that the crucifix has yet to have had an impact on me in any way, shape or form. They don’t like the comment one bit.

  320. #322 Boosterz
    July 11, 2008

    “Did PZ advance the cause of atheism? I say no.”

    We have a cause? News to me. Just out of curiosity, how many new converts to your cookie cult do you guys think you’ve won over in the last two days hmm? LOL

  321. #323 craig
    July 11, 2008

    “Did PZ advance the cause of atheism?”

    There is no “cause of atheism.”
    You want a cause, join a religion.

  322. #324 Pleco
    July 11, 2008

    I think the thing that bothers the theists the most is that they know there is absolutely nothing they can do to any symbol or idea held by atheists that would get them as upset as they are.

    Burn a photo of Darwin? Go ahaed.
    Defecate on a copy of “The God Delusion”. Knock yerself out.
    Make fun of Prof. Myers’ octopi? Close, but no cigarillo.

    No “eye for an eye” type revenge here. And oddly enough, the “turn the other cheek” admonishment seems to have been forgotten in all of this.

    Of course, none of this would have happened if the original incident had not occurred – and by original incident I mean the reaction to the cracker removal. It is only when certain theists started to threaten the student with expulsion and physical violence that the blogsphere even noticed.

    FWIW I sent my email to the university yesterday.

  323. #325 jpf
    July 11, 2008

    #200′s Free Republic link contain this winner (bold mine):

    IF Catholics had half the testosterone of muzzies, the answer would be simple. Holy hollowpoint. But alas, I expect they will whimper and grovel as usual.
    6 posted on 07/11/2008 1:14:06 PM PDT by isrul (Help make every day, “Disrespect a muzzie day.”)

    Irony and death threats! Yeah, atheists are the dangerous ones.

  324. #326 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    Kobra

    You’re so erudite. I tremble at your brilliance.

    Do you even know what the phrase ad hominem attack means?

  325. #327 gdlchmst
    July 11, 2008

    Its one thing to be an Atheist another to be a Atheist Zealot.

    Your sentiment has been addressed, numerous times. But once again, you might not be used to a formerly oppressed group actively voicing our opinions, but that does not make us zealots, in any real sense of the word.

  326. #328 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston: I was unaware that we were in an intellectually honest debate setting. At least, not from reading your posts.

    Also, it’s a reworded quote from 8-Bit Theater. Learn to stop taking yourself so fucking seriously.

  327. #329 yakaru
    July 11, 2008

    “Did PZ advance the cause of atheism? I say no.”

    PZ is a scientist writing a blog, not a politician. He is saying what he wants to say. It doesn’t make god not exist any less.

  328. #331 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    Want some real irony? Look up the origin of the term Zealot. Interesting tag to put on an atheist when seen in that light.

  329. #332 ddr
    July 11, 2008

    Yep. I’ll bet this little incident will spawn a whole urban legend about organized atheists going to mass to steal crackers. There will be extra security at mass to prevent people from walking away with the cracker and for years they will be talking about this. They will tell the story over and over about how the great evil one, PZ Myers, collects crackers that have been consecrated, holds beer parties and then every one pisses on the crackers. They will look at suspicion at anyone who buys a case of beer, but is not wearing a cross.

    And all of you can say that you were there when the legend was born

  330. #333 OctoberMermaid
    July 11, 2008

    I’m surprised Ron from Houston is still here. How much concern can one concern troll have in ‘em?

  331. #334 Carlie
    July 11, 2008

    Wow. If you put all the comments about this event together, this might outrank the “PZ gets kicked out of Expelled” saga in comments/minute. Of course, that was pathetic and immensely funny, and this is just pathetic.

    Hint: When you’re defending making death threats against someone who laughed at a cracker, ur doin religion wrong.

  332. #335 Norman Doering
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston wrote:

    Did PZ advance the cause of atheism? I say no.
    Who’s stupid now?

    We’ll have to get PZ a T-shirt that says:
    “I outraged Bill Donohue and all I’ve got to show for it is this stinkin’ T-shirt…
    Well, the shirt, an increased blog readership, an advance on a book I haven’t even written yet, a shot on ‘Countdown with Keith Olbermann’ and a warm fuzzy feeling.”

  333. #336 Rachel
    July 11, 2008

    C.J. Simones @ 89: If you want to be spared from PZ’s writing, why do you read it?!? It’s really easy: you just click somewhere else and you shall be spared! And you know the coolest thing about it? It’s in your control!

  334. #337 Kobra
    July 11, 2008

    @335:
    Oh, just wait. I plan on writing a post later titled, “Bill Donohue: Blow me!”

  335. #338 craig
    July 11, 2008

    “You Myers groupies are so incredibly hate-filled and intolerant. What a bunch of bigots.”

    I keep saying this, but I’ll say it again.
    Criticizing someone’s gender, race or other inborn characteristic is bigotry.

    Criticizing someone’s ideas can be correct, incorrect, rude, funny… whatever. But it can NEVER be bigotry.

    ALL ideas are fair game for criticism. The good ideas will stand up to it. The bad ones won’t. Criticism of ideas is not only always fair, it is necessary – especially criticism of dangerous, illogical ideas.

    To claim that criticism of your ideas is bigotry is not only wrong, it’s pure cowardice.

    If your beliefs could be logically defended, you would be happy to do so. But you can’t. So you hide behind the incorrect “bigotry” claim.

    Which makes you not only a coward, but also a rather vile person. Millions of people have suffered and died because they were the targets of TRUE bigotry. They were tortured and murdered. Many of them by Catholics.

    The fact that you appropriate the horror over TRUE bigotry to try to shield your indefensibly stupid ideas from the examination and criticism that ALL ideas warrant makes you a person worthy of no respect.

  336. #339 sailor
    July 11, 2008

    “We already know that Myers lost one round: the university has removed the link to his blog from his faculty page.”

    They asked for PZ’s dismissal, and got a link removed. They call that a victory!

    (Well I guess when you pray, and then have to make do with what actually arrives, you get to accept some pretty big compromises)

    I would have thought that Pharyngula’s prominence on the internet was way more than that of the college. So the link is neither here nor there. It is just a quick way of the university shutting the catholic league the hell up.

  337. #340 Reginald Selkirk
    July 11, 2008

    I prefer “legion” of commenters. :D

    I don’t like it. The best-known “legion” in the USA is the American Legion, another one of those mainstream organizations which discriminate against atheists.

  338. #341 tim rowledge
    July 11, 2008

    “That the Catholic Church is a pedophile ring is an exaggeration. It’s estimated that less than 4% of all North American priests are pedophiles.”

    Good grief; is it really being claimed (with, I assume, some supporting documentation?) that around 1 in 25 of these purportedly caring, saintly, devout, (etc etc) men is a pedophile? That really would be a nasty thought. Just how many is this claimed to add up to? Obviously this mythical god of theirs really did mean “suffer the little children”.

  339. #342 gdlchmst
    July 11, 2008

    Hint: When you’re defending making death threats against someone who laughed at a cracker, ur doin religion wrong.

    I wasn’t aware that there was a way of doing religion right.

  340. #343 MikeM
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston

    You’re so erudite. I am in awe of your powers of reasoning.

    Do you even know what the term “hate crime” means?

    I suggest you call the police and have that man arrested. Just call them. Tell them what he did. Heck, he even admitted that he took the cracker home. He kidnapped it. This is a fact not in dispute. You have a slam-dunk admission.

    Tell the police. Demand that they press charges.

    Let us know how that goes, okay?

    (I’m really trying to get you to admit that this was an irreverant act, but not a criminal act. We’ve proven a thousand times over that it was irreverant. Can you show us it was a crime? Would a jury convict the student of kidnapping and committing a hate crime, in your opinion?)

  341. #344 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    You people are truly amazing. Yes, atheism has no “cause.” However, atheists have a very distinct PR problem. Does this bile really help anyone not an atheist to understand that we’re not irrational immoral baby killers? Frankly I’d say no.

    I’d be the first to draft a lengthy expose about how Catholicism damages society. However, I also have to acknowledge that regardless of their perverted motivations, they also do some good things in society.

    On the surface what PZ advocated is just mean spirited and wrong. He subsequently gave an interview where he admitted that he was engaging in satire. All of you folks laughing and slapping him on the back going “Good one PZ” are in my opinion part of the problem with how atheists are perceived.

    We’re not much different from the theists who threatened PZ’s job and life when we engage in the bile I’ve seen on this blog. Maybe we didn’t go quite as far, but you folks are just being insensitive fucking twits.

  342. #345 jmd
    July 11, 2008

    I imagine the Minneapolians might also take some offense to being considered a Morrisonite’s “back yard.” Isn’t that kind of phrase usually the other way around?

  343. #346 Reed Braden
    July 11, 2008

    Great… now they’re just giving PZ what he wants. You folks at the CL are doing a great job!

    (eye roll)

  344. #347 I'm not you
    July 11, 2008

    You know I have to admit, the first time I read PZ’s post about torturing a cracker, I thought it was immature and pointless. I agreed with the sentiments over the original case (the student who “kidnapped” a communion wafer), but I thought that the “I’m gonna do even worse things” was just childish and uncalled for. Funny, yeah, but just pointlessly aggressive.

    But now I see that there is a point to it. The sheer level of rage and idiocy coming from some people over *a god damn cracker* is absolutely ridiculous. Religious fanatics *need* to be tormented and aggravated, because it’s only then that their true, insane nature shows, and everyone in the world can see religion for what it really is.

    Without provocation, religious folk can put out their “we are peaceful” bullshit. Love thy neighbour, love your enemies, turn the other cheek and live a peaceful life. All bullshit. The *instant* someone even mentions the remote possibility that they’ll do something you don’t like, bam, out comes the hatred and the “omg we’re being persecuted” crap.

    So yeah. I applaud PZ over this one. He’s done more to reveal the underlying insanity of religion than any analyst of the Bible ever could.

  345. #348 Caveat
    July 11, 2008

    The fundie schtick was stale the moment it emerged. As mentioned in the other thread about the Cookie Caper, it’s doubtful that these people are even RCs.

    Sure, these hypocritical nimrods need protection from imaginary evil people. There’s Betelgeuse, for example, not to mention his minions.

    Maybe they have a reason to be apprehensive about visiting their morbidly decorated, gloomy houses of self-delusion and mind-numbing learning by rote. After all, a quick review of history reveals that during many centuries, religious followers have been mercilessly persecuted by organized atheists.

  346. #349 Ames Grawert
    July 11, 2008

    PZ, I admire and respect you, but, as a moderate agnostic, I don’t think what you’re doing is good for the movement. We can’t see eye to eye. There ain’t no good guy. There ain’t no bad guy. There’s only you and me, and we just disagree.

  347. #350 tim rowledge
    July 11, 2008

    Remember the original issue that caused all this; all that PZ needs to do in order to ” show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare” is accept a Wholly-Cracker(tm) and not eat it! Oh the eeeeevil.

  348. #351 PA
    July 11, 2008

    Of course, if the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation were correct, all bets would be off (note use of subjective tense): God would simply smite anyone who mucked around with his son’s flesh — and arguably with cause (although one might deride the parenting skills of a deity who allowed his son’s flesh to become embodied in wafers and distributed to bunch of schmucks like the humans). Luckily for the potential host-desecrators among us, it’s not correct. And, funnily enough, no one seems to be arguing that it is, but rather only that they believe it and we should respect their beliefs.

  349. #352 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston @ #344

    We’re not much different from the theists who threatened PZ’s job and life when we engage in the bile I’ve seen on this blog. Maybe we didn’t go quite as far, but you folks are just being insensitive fucking twits.

    Even if I were to concede Insensitive Twittery, it is far far _far_ different from violence, threat of violence or murder, or threat to livelihood.

    Ideas are NOT people, attacking one is not at all equivalent to attacking the other.

  350. #353 Torbjörn Larsson, OM
    July 11, 2008

    Ridicl … rideklu … xians maekz bunny cry.

  351. #354 PA
    July 11, 2008

    “Subjunctive tense” oops.

  352. #355 MikeM
    July 11, 2008

    Nicely said.

    I’m not you, but I wish I was.

  353. #356 OctoberMermaid
    July 11, 2008

    #344

    “I’d be the first to draft a lengthy expose about how Catholicism damages society.”

    So do it if you think it’d really help more than what PZ’s doing. If nothing else, it will DEFINITELY help more than whining like you have been.

    I mean, I hate to be so rude like that, but you’re wasting your time and ours. But mostly just yours, since you’re the one saying you could do all of this so much better.

  354. #357 Shawn Wilkinson
    July 11, 2008

    In before thread closing.

  355. #358 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    OctoberMermaid

    I have a very thick skin.

    Look, my only concern is that if we want to stake a moral high ground and show that religion is a dangerous meme that causes bigotry and hatred, then we’d best not look like hateful bigots.

  356. #359 Reginald Selkirk
    July 11, 2008

    Communion crackers are readily available on the web. 500 for $9.99, discounts for larger volumes. And quality, too: “Cavanagh hosts are 20% thicker, contain 25% more wheat, feature clear cross embossing, and are guaranteed fresh for one full year.” For some definition of “fresh.” But remember, “All sales are final” – don’t try to return your used crackers.

  357. #360 CrypticLife
    July 11, 2008

    “Can this possibly get more insane?”

    Is that a trick question?

    Well, BD is right about the hysteria part; I know some of the reaction has had me laughing hysterically.

    I haven’t seen any atheists threatening Catholics with death. What would be the point of that sort of foolishness?

  358. #361 the strangest brew
    July 11, 2008

    They know deep down that they are being ridiculous…this whole affair is just spun right out of control and their will be no rational found in CL for quite a while methinks…they are milking the ‘poor persecuted us’ line for all they are worth…doing the Xian shuffle to the hilt…

    It appears to be a battle they want…raise the profile in the media…throw themselves on the mercy of the land…they want it so badly…publicity and sensationalism…it is the only thing they got going for them…the cracker fiasco is a red herring…some dimwit overacted and they got themselves pointing up a one way street in the wrong direction…what they gonna do… shout…’oppression’…it is their only get outta jail card handy…

    They have also got to do the smoke and mirrors trick as well cos they are well aware that the death threats made to atheist conspirators does not generate quite as much understanding as it used to do…they will play that down by squealing about Catholics being frightened to pray to their belief icon…cos of the nasty atheists…tis damage limitation…that and now’t more…be interesting to see if benny baby gets in on the martyr act…but methinks even he is keeping outta this nonsense…being a tad pragmatic he might consider that his image does not need embroilment in ‘crackergate’ any more then he needs a condom…

    Let them cry wolf…and when nothing happens they can pretend their deity saved them…morons..!

  359. #362 Brownian, OM
    July 11, 2008

    PZ, I admire and respect you, but, as a moderate agnostic, I don’t think what you’re doing is good for the movement. We can’t see eye to eye. There ain’t no good guy. There ain’t no bad guy. There’s only you and me, and we just disagree.

    I don’t agree with you Ames, but I love that you pulled a little Dave Mason on us.

  360. #363 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    OctoberMemaid

    I won’t be wasting my time and typing fingers if I didn’t feel that PZ was not helping but in fact causing harm.

  361. #364 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    Communion crackers are readily available on the web.

    Yes, but they have to be blessed by a priest before they’re fully capable of offending a Catholic.

  362. #365 Reginald Selkirk
    July 11, 2008

    Any bets as to whether “Ron in Houston” and pbnj have the same IP address?

  363. #366 sailor
    July 11, 2008

    “That the Catholic Church is a pedophile ring is an exaggeration. It’s estimated that less than 4% of all North American priests are pedophiles.”

    Nearly 4%! That really does give new meaning to expressions like “suffer little children”: and
    “turn the other cheek”

  364. #367 Rey Fox
    July 11, 2008

    “We’re not much different from the theists who threatened PZ’s job and life when we engage in the bile I’ve seen on this blog. Maybe we didn’t go quite as far

    Oh please, Ron, don’t undermine your false equivalence. you had such a good righteous head of steam going there for a while.

    I’ve said it before, what I think is bad for The Cause is the chilling effect of worrying about what every atheist in every forum says. Hell, at the very least, it annoys the crap out of me, a guy who likes to insult religion sometimes. Not in a church, mind you, but in a community of like-minded individuals. “Oh NO they might find out that we’ve been insulting their crackers!” Good, maybe one or two of them will get to thinking about it.

  365. #368 gdlchmst
    July 11, 2008

    we’d best not look like hateful bigots.

    Pissed off? Yes. Hateful bigotry? Not even the same ball park.

  366. #369 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    Reginald

    Put you money where your mouth is….

  367. #370 Reginald Selkirk
    July 11, 2008

    I won’t be wasting my time and typing fingers if I didn’t feel that PZ was not helping but in fact causing harm.

    Right. Because he has threatened to cause harm to crackers.

  368. #371 karen marie
    July 11, 2008

    the media is doing their bit to foster misinformation:

    from “eyewitness news 9, WFTV.com, coverage you can count on” (an abc affiliate), story titled ‘Body Of Christ’ Snatched From Church, Held Hostage By UCF Student

    lede sentence: ORANGE COUNTY, Fla. — A University of Central Florida student, upset religious groups hold church services on public campuses, is holding hostage the Eucharist, an object so sacred to Catholics they call it the Body of Christ.

    ******
    i came across this article after googling “pz myers” to see what would pop up. the lede sentence was in the google result and when i saw it i became alarmed that i had misunderstood what happened despite having read the direct statements of webster cook himself earlier today.

    fortunately, i read the entire article and discovered, to my annoyance, that the hysterical lede is in fact misleading. in paragraph TEN we learn that: “Cook is upset more than $40,000 in student fees have been allocated to support religious organizations on campus for the 2008-2009 school year, according to student government records. [it's documented in student government records that "cook is upset" or that "student fees have been allocated"? we'll never know if we stick with this brilliant journalist] He denied he is holding the Eucharist hostage to protest that support.”

    if you only read the lede, you would very likely go away with the mistaken impression that cook marched into the church, stole the eucharist and then called a press conference that he was holding the eucharist hostage blah blah blah.

    it’s amazing how the rule of law just flies out the window when it comes to religionists manhandling people.

    i think i said earlier that the depth of the idiocy here just keeps getting deeper and deeper.

    this episode is a life lesson and reminder to make sure we pay attention to the framing and don’t confuse it with the actual facts.

  369. #372 Blake Stacey
    July 11, 2008

    Is anyone else wondering where Jack Chick’s allegiance will fall in this matter? I mean, in one corner, we’ve got TEH ATHIEST, who is a librul Darwinist to boot; but in the other corner, weighing in at four metric tons of bowel-impacting fæces, we’ve got the people who worship THE DEATH COOKIE. This might be the logic loop we’ve all been waiting for: raise the deflector screens to guard yourselves from exploding brains.

  370. #373 robertm
    July 11, 2008

    Are there many birds in Minneapolis?

    Just imagine sitting on a bench outside st. peter’s feeding the birds with a big box of communion crackers!! HA!

  371. #374 mena
    July 11, 2008

    jpf @ 325, here are some more hilarious freeper quotes. Bolding mine as well.
    He’s too big a coward to insult islam. Myers would sooner grow a beard and start carrying around a prayer rug for fear of his life. He knows Catholics won’t actually hurt him.
    12 posted on 7/11/2008 1:26:09 PM by Sgt_Schultze

    I don’t know. Once, at a mass at a monastery, I realized I was going to choke on a host, and quickly left the chapel into the hallway, where I coughed it into my hand and then consumed it immediately.
    I wiped my eyes, and there was one of the monks beside me. I suspect that there is always someone watching.
    I would think that most, if not all, churches are on the alert for this, due to the number of Satanic cults or others who would profane the Host, if they could.
    16 posted on 7/11/2008 2:27:24 PM by Judith Anne

    Breathing out of their noses-they’re doing it wrong.

  372. #375 Jeff R
    July 11, 2008

    How has all these shenanigans regarding the fracking cracker desecration not yet made it becoming a youtube contest? You know, similar to the one put out by the RRS with the whole denial thing. I propose a youtube contest! Lets see how you would desecrate a fracking cracker! Nothing sick or disturbed, mind you. Just good ol’ fashioned poking fun at the religious nut jobs and watching their heads burst with hatred and contempt, the way any good Christian would. Perhaps this contest would stir the proverbial “bee’s nest” a little to thoroughly?

    Next thing i wonder, how come the “real” Eucharist stolen by WC shown up on ebay yet? i’m sure he just returned a replacement one for the one he took, right? /wink

    anyway, just my thoughts.
    -J

  373. #376 Brownian, OM
    July 11, 2008

    We’re not much different from the theists who threatened PZ’s job and life when we engage in the bile I’ve seen on this blog. Maybe we didn’t go quite as far, but you folks are just being insensitive fucking twits.

    You’re right. Why, just the other day, I tried to pay $34.08 for a plane ticket from Edmonton (my home, in Alberta) to Melbourne, Australia. The ticket agent said the ticket was a hundred times that amount, but really, are $34.08 and $3408.48 much different? I mean sure, maybe $34.08 doesn’t go as far, but the ticket agent was obviously being an insensitive fucking twit for suggesting that it was an ‘insulting pittance.’

    I am now going to do my part to help the fiascos in Afghanistan and Iraq by killing as many enemy combatants as possible:

    “Enemy, your beliefs are fucking stupid. Moron.”
    “Enemy, your beliefs are fucking stupid. Moron.”
    “Enemy, your beliefs are fucking stupid. Moron.”

    Well, that’s three down. I’ll just sit back and wait for Ron in Houston to send me my medal before I jump back in the fray with my deadly insensitive bile.

  374. #377 Neural Transmissions
    July 11, 2008

    I’d like to know how much traffic has increased to Pharyngula since this whole fiasco started. The Catholic League may gotten the link removed from his university page, but think how much bigger his pay check from Seed will be thanks to them!

  375. #378 Ron Sullivan
    July 11, 2008

    I want to make it clear that I am not, nor have I ever been, in Houston. Except maybe for an hour in the airport once. I vaguely recall it as a flat, damp place, which would match that other Ron’s affect so far.

    This is pretty hilarious. Cthulu help us–what if that Floridian kid had dipped his wafer in chocolate??

  376. #379 Neural Transmissions
    July 11, 2008

    I’d like to know how much traffic has increased to Pharyngula since this whole fiasco started. The Catholic League may have succeeded in getting the link removed from his university page, but think how much bigger his pay check from Seed will be thanks to them!

  377. #380 Helioprogenus
    July 11, 2008

    Wow, all of this because some idiots tried to wrestle a “fucking cracker” from some guy who did’t want to chew it at the moment. Holy fucking shit, how insane is this? Beyond the fact that it’s just a piece of unleavened bread, it is unbelievable that so much can be made of such an insignificant stupid little thing. So PZ mocks these fuckers, some take it too seriously, and now, we have a blogwar over a dry tasteless piece of bread. This is why we laugh and mock at religion. And for those who disagree with PZ on his conduct, great for you to be so concerned, but why does it even matter? He’s just mocking some bullshit belief that some idiots hold to their dying illogical breaths. Mock all you want, and if you have problems, you’re free to post them, but don’t think it makes it less humorous for us to view it from a rational perspective.

  378. #381 calladus
    July 11, 2008

    Stealing a Eucharist would be wrong – and I hope that PZ isn’t advocating that. But I have no problem with re-gifting a Eucharist. Once given, the recipient can do anything he or she desires with the gift, even if the gift is a bit of Jesus flesh.

    There is moral ambiguity in getting a gift under false pretenses – but I think there is an easy answer to that. Several people commenting have indicated that for various reasons they kept the Eucharist after receiving it. Perhaps one of these kind people can send one to PZ?

    Personally, I’d frame it, side by side with a matrix of other identical unblessed wafers – maybe 10 x 10 wafers, 100 in all, in a shallow shadowbox frame. Which one of these is not like the others? I’ll bet no one could tell!

  379. #382 JoJo
    July 11, 2008

    In case anyone’s interested, I got the 4% priestly pedophile number from The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Priests and Deacons, by Karen Terry et al. (2004). See section 2.2, Summary Results: Prevalence of Sexual Abuse of Youths Under 18 by Catholic Priests and Deacons, Page 25, next to last paragraph.

    This report was commissioned by the Conference of Catholic Bishops. I specifically used this as a source so that any Catholics who might whine about it could not object to it, since their own bishops bought into the report.

  380. #383 Felicia
    July 11, 2008

    I have nothing futher to say other than this post reminds me of all the reasons I come here everyday.

    Had a great laugh with this one, PZ. :)

  381. #384 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    Reginald

    No. No. A thousand times no. What PZ did was the functional equivalent of encouraging people to trespass on someone’s sacred place and turn over their religious icons.

    We would never consider engaging in such an act of physical vandalism. However, what he did was not much different.

    I understand that a lot of atheists don’t understand this and frankly a lot seem so insensitive that they don’t care.

    People often have irrational beliefs. You should still treat them with respect.

  382. #385 Big City
    July 11, 2008

    Ron @ 344: “Does this bile really help anyone not an atheist to understand that we’re not irrational immoral baby killers?”
    Maybe not, but I don’t think anything will. They are convinced that godless heathens are the downfall of America, and God’s kingdom, and it should be obvious by now that civil discourse doesn’t even make a dent in their fantasy. Look at how they are acting. It’s utter fucking lunacy, man! I am all about being a bigger man, but not when it constantly renders unsatisfactory results. As long as they’re slinging mud, staying quiet isn’t going to keep us clean.

    Not me @ 347: I agree with everything you said. I, too, was taken aback at first, but it’s clear that they were waiting for an incident like this to force the hands of decision-makers. Honestly, the extent to which they’re pitching fits is the stuff of satire. Also, let us not forget that they were feigning persecution before PZ even got involved.

  383. #386 MikeM
    July 11, 2008

    #363

    I just find this sentiment so insincere at this point.

    Ron, can you show us that this was a hate crime??

    My position: It was irreverent. I wouldn’t have done it. I see no reason to. However, it harmed no one.

    When framing your response, just remember that PZ has received death threats over this. Which of us has done the same? Can you show me the comment(s) where one of us has threatened any member of the CL? Who was harmed when the student didn’t eat the cracker?

  384. #387 jimmiraybob
    July 11, 2008

    Seems like just yesterday I was a Minion and now I’ve been promoted to Ilk…plus, it’s the weekend…oh yeah, beer in the fridge. Life is schweet.

  385. #388 BMurray
    July 11, 2008

    As there is no objective test to determine whether or not any given communion wafer has been blessed and therefore no way to know whether or not one is in fact the body of Christ, I submit that it is completely unnecessary to have them blessed in order to “defile” them — your claim that they have been blessed will be sufficient. If it’s not then they risk a false negative by possibly ignoring a real cookie hostage, and that won’t do. Every cookie in every crate is just as good as the real thing for defilement purposes, provided you are prepared to lie.

  386. #389 Ken Cope
    July 11, 2008

    Myers’ ilk-quake scares all the Ritz-eating tards
    And they’re like,
    “You kidnapped our God!”
    Damn right it’s a Ritz Cracker God,
    Myers can teach you but their brains aren’t large.

  387. #390 Nick Gotts
    July 11, 2008

    “PZ Myers has decided to take on all Catholics, by calling for atheists to steal communion wafers from communion services…”

    The start of Ames Grawert’s latest blog post. WRONG!

  388. #391 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    @Ron in Houston:

    You keep on equating our “insensitivity” with violence, murder, and now vandalism… show me how being a jerk is even remotely the same as vandalizing a church, and I might start to believe you.

    All of this lunacy because some dude in FL didn’t pretend to chuck it in his mouth and palm the thing instead…

  389. #392 Blake Stacey
    July 11, 2008

    Neural Transmissions:

    I’d like to know how much traffic has increased to Pharyngula since this whole fiasco started.

    Eyeballing the Sitemeter stats, I’d say about 50,000 page views per day.

  390. #393 Craig Holman
    July 11, 2008

    bukake

  391. #394 gdlchmst
    July 11, 2008

    People often have irrational beliefs. You should still treat them with respect.

    You are kidding right? Since when did irrational beliefs or people with irrational beliefs warrant my automatic respect? You may hand out your respect like flyers, but my respect has to be earned.

  392. #395 SteveC
    July 11, 2008

    (writing this from Houston) I think PZ *has* advanced the “cause of atheism,” (ha!) whether he meant to or not, by threatening to desecrate a cracker, and here’s why I think so:

    It’s a lot harder for a kid growing up to believe in this “jesus in a cracker” nonsense when there are hordes of people on the internet pointing and laughing at the absurdity of it, and when hordes of believers respond the way that they have responded — with anger and foaming at the mouth. Religion thrives in the darkness of isolation — precisely why various cults tend to place restrictions on who members are permitted to hang out with.

    PZ has (perhaps inadvertently) publicized the gigantic absurdity that is the eucharist, brought it out of the darkness. That in itself would advance the cause of stamping out superstition and ignorance, in the long term.

  393. #396 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    @ 390

    That’s not surprising at all. Give it a few days to really snowball out of control and we’ll have headlines like “PZ Myers calls on atheists to firebomb churches” or some such bullshit.

    That or it’ll just die and once the trolls have left we’ll get some occasional lulz out of the whole thing.

    I see a Crackergate anniversary party in our future!

  394. #397 craig
    July 11, 2008

    So far the arguments against seem to be “mildly taunting the lunatics until they are frothing in the mouth and threatening violence will make us look bad in comparison to them.”

    whatever.

  395. #398 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    Ron Sullivan

    Yep, flat and damp that describes Houston to a tee. However, I’m not trying to rain on anyone’s parade. I just happen to feel that PZ said some highly inflammatory things and his record at least on this blog is not clear.

    When the whole mess gained critical mass, he did an interview and clarified his comments. I’m just saying that he needs to do the same here. He needs to make clear to his “ilk” that he’s not advocating that they actively go into Catholic churches to attempt to obtain consecrated communion wafers.

    I know that’s not what he’s advocating, but yes, people are stupid enough to attempt to do that. If something like that were to happen it would be a major black eye to atheists.

    I think it would also show graciousness to throw a few “crackers” to the Catholics. If he really wants to show how insane they are, then a little graciousness will make them look like even bigger hypocrites.

  396. #399 Ames
    July 11, 2008

    I’ll celebrate the anniversary :-).

    Also, corrected. Sorry.

  397. #400 Annick
    July 11, 2008

    So…. eating crackers is considered violence now ?

  398. #401 Sauceress
    July 11, 2008

    Houston radio station KPFT last night saying that Bill Donohue has ‘declared a fatwa’ against him.
    “He should know better–I don’t need others to do the fighting for me. I’m quite good at it myself.”But he’d better be careful what he says, because if I get any death threats, it won’t be hard to connect the dots.

    Riiiiiight!

    But then Bill goes on to advertise PZ’s email so the sheeple can send more hate mail & death threats?

    Catholic League Wiki:
    “Adding that Donohue “fans simmering anger with inflammatory news releases, a Web site and newsletter”

    Just Donohue’s usual MO then!

  399. #402 Amy
    July 11, 2008

    I, a devout Catholic, will pray for all of your souls. Because I love you. Every sad, angry, wounded, abused, confused, anti-conservative, anti-Catholic one of you. You do make me angry and you ALMOST make me want to do or say something sinful…because I am human and I have weaknesses just like the rest of you. But, I also have a couple of things I like to call class and self control. So I will simply state my opinion and leave it at that (because it is my consitutional right to do so though I’m sure you will delete this comment because it is contradictory to PZ’s hateful anti-Christian/anti-Catholic beliefs).

    The Holy Eucharist is the body of Christ. If you don’t believe it, that is fine. Then please do not partake or desecrate it. Leave it alone. You all preach respect and all of your liberal tolerance propoganda. Yet you are hypocrites in your actions. You are not tolerant with your viscious remarks and hateful words. Yes, there are hypocrites in every sect of society including the Catholic Church. DEAL WITH IT. We are all human and we all deserve respect. I do not agree with death threats to anyone. Nor does any true Catholic. I’m guessing no true, devout Muslim would agree with any extremist terrorist either. Same concept. Do not condemn all for the actions of a few extremists. That’s my piece.

    You know, you all make me sad. A lot of these heinous comments make me not want to bring children into this SAD world. But, don’t get your hopes up. That wish of yours will not come true. I’m going to have a lovely LARGE devout Catholic family. (Insert your ignorant anti-Catholic joke here if you wish.) And, my large Catholic family and I will continue to pray for you. All of you. We will ask God to show mercy to you all (and myself as I am human and thus a sinner) as you face death’s door when the time comes.

    I don’t need to send letters or make profane statements or insult anyone. Because I am content. I know the Truth. And you do too…inside. You know you do. You were born with it inside of you. You can spend your whole life and expend all of your energy fighting it. But, you will see…in the end, the glory of God always prevails. Catholics are by no means perfect. But we know the Truth. God bless each and every one of you.

  400. #403 Blake Stacey
    July 11, 2008

    That or it’ll just die and once the trolls have left we’ll get some occasional lulz out of the whole thing.

    I’m not seeing the same handles as I was yesterday, at least where the delusional godbots are concerned (hey, I respect religious folk when they’re nice people — you ain’t). This makes me think a given troll has a half-life of a few hours to a day. Of course, Bill “Jews run Hollywood and eat aborted babies” Donohue keeps sending us a fresh crop. . . but how long did that Kathy Griffin “Suck it, Jesus!” furor last, anyway?

    I think everyone needs to take a break and enjoy pandas and kittens. Warning: that blog is home to a paleontologist, so you might get infected by science!

  401. #404 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    BMurray @ #388:

    You’re absolutely right, of course, if PZ felt so inclined he could order 500 of the things online, claim that 500 people sent him hosts, and then hold 500 christs hostage. I was mostly joking when I said that a priest has to bless them to make them capable of offending Catholics.

    One thing I’ve learned from Pharyngula: I think I’m far more funny than everybody else seems to think I am…

  402. #405 Brian
    July 11, 2008

    Well I know what I’m gonna do, lace the host with some LSD and have a real spiritual experience

  403. #406 Ames
    July 11, 2008

    @ Amy, 402, chill. While PZ might be taking this a little far, and getting bad PR for teh atheists, it’s not a sin to laugh.

  404. #407 Amy
    July 11, 2008

    Um…excuse me #388…what is a lie? If you don’t believe in God, then is there really any truth? Why would you question whether somebody was “prepared to lie” if it were not a sin or at least considered wrong? You basicially just admitted to believing in the 10 Comandments right there. You athiest anti-Christians are so funny as you all hang yourself on your own ignorant words. I am going to laugh all night at you. God bless.

  405. #408 True Bob
    July 11, 2008

    Sheesh Ron in Houston, is there no end to your concern?

    IIRC, PZ blogged about this very subject – different approaches to engaging the Reality Deluded (TM). He definitely acknowledged the mild-mannered, pleasant discussion model and supported those who use it (in certain contexts), but also pointed out that that routine didn’t work for blacks nor gays or any other suppressed minority, and that HIS approach would be more vociferous. Again IIRC, he thought multiple approaches would be the best approach (I’m thinking Bruce Lee and the style of no style. If you prefer, think of international negotiations – there’s talk around a table, but there’s also simultaneous saber-rattling and economic extortion on the side, sometimes even war).

    Does that make no sense to you? Are you in the god-closet? If you don’t like his approach, take your own. You have expressed your disagreement with PZ’s style numerous times now. Do you think you’ve really affected the regulars here? I think most of the regulars are here because they share that sentiment, and are unlikely to be swayed otherwise, or have already also expressed their feelings.

    Got anything new?

  406. #409 Calladus
    July 11, 2008

    Amy #402 –

    The Invisible Pink Unicorn is omnipotent and omniscient, and is of course the REAL creator of the Universe. (Don’t listen to those Pastafarians!)

    She has told me to tell you that you are wrong, and you’re being very silly to worship a God that doesn’t really exist.

    You know the Truth, Amy, and you prove this Truth every time you have a craving for pizza. You can’t deny this Truth!

    It will do you no good to deny the existence of the Invisible Pink Unicorn (peace be unto her holy hooves) because she is all powerful – she cannot be disproved. You only deny yourself for not believing in her!

  407. #410 Neural Transmissions
    July 11, 2008

    Blake Stacey @ 392

    Thanks. Yeah, from the looks of it, the average historical page views is 72,000 per day while the page views over the last day is 118,000, an increase of 63%.

  408. #411 Amy
    July 11, 2008

    It is not a sin to laugh. It is a sin to blaspheme our God and defame a Holy religion. None of you even understand the Catholic faith so you really don’t have a leg to stand on. I am seriously laughing at the complete idiocy of most of these comments. Ever heard of a little thing called the Catechism? Check it out in combination with the Bible if you want the Truth. Amen.

  409. #412 Neural Transmission
    July 11, 2008

    Wait, no, I messed that up. Average historical number of visits per day is 50,000. The number of visits in the last 24 hrs is 94,000, an increase of 88%!

  410. #413 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    I think this Amy is a satire. If not, may Her Horny Goodness have mercy on your soul.

  411. #414 Blake Stacey
    July 11, 2008

    I, a devout Catholic, will pray for all of your souls.

    That’s OK; I’m sure someone will volunteer to think on your behalf.

    Every sad, angry, wounded, abused, confused, anti-conservative, anti-Catholic one of you.

    I can’t speak for anybody else, but I personally was never abused, and I’m not particularly sad or angry (how could I be — I’ve got blueberry bread!). Given that “conservative” is these days a byword for “authoritarian”, “bigoted” and “downright medieval”, then yes, I’ll have to plead guilty on that charge. Also, I’ve met a great many reasonable Catholics who were sincerely nice folks, so while I think almost every pronouncement that comes out of the Church’s hierarchy is completely bonkers, I’m not sure anti-Catholic is the right word for me. Anti-clerical, perhaps.

    You do make me angry and you ALMOST make me want to do or say something sinful…because I am human and I have weaknesses just like the rest of you. But, I also have a couple of things I like to call class and self control.

    Your condescension is unbecoming.

    I do not agree with death threats to anyone. Nor does any true Catholic. I’m guessing no true, devout Muslim would agree with any extremist terrorist either.

    The world’s cup runs over with factions, each claiming to possess ultimate truth and to know the mind of the Creator. On secular, empirical, rational grounds, they’ve all been equally wrong. Those of us on the outside have no way of seeing which of the myriad mutually inconsistent creeds have a pipeline to truth. We have no way to know what makes a “true Catholic”, a “true Lutheran” or a “true Muslim”. Millions of people say they are these things, but millions of other people claim the same thing while disagreeing vocally with the other “true believers”.

    I don’t need to send letters or make profane statements or insult anyone. Because I am content. I know the Truth. And you do too…inside. You know you do. You were born with it inside of you.

    That condescension I mentioned? Yeah, it’s verging on arrogance right about now.

    If the visitors to this site are a fair sampling, then “true Catholics” are either foaming with violent hatred or oozing smug self-satisfaction. Way to advertise your product, people.

  412. #415 Rey Fox
    July 11, 2008

    “If you don’t believe in God, then is there really any truth?”

    We’re really down the rabbit hole now, aren’t we?

  413. #416 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston

    I’ll make no comment on Houston beyond saying the people were nice and the food was f*cking delicious.

    I can see your standpoint on the issue and even, maybe slightly a little, agree with you…kinda. PZ wasn’t saying “steal me some crackers, minions!” but it is easy enough for the wrong people to spin it that way. Putting in a quick note saying “hai guys, it was sarcastic, lighten up” would suffice to cover his anatomy from any possible shenanigans.

    If someone decides to nick some magic morsels from a church, in the name of godlessness, I have no problem with that. It’s their choice. I’m not going to do it but if person X decides to, no harm done.

    Do I think it’s wrong? No. Do I think it’s immoral? No. Do I think it would be a waste of time to sit through that just to get a few bland crackers? Hell yes! There’s got to be a million better things to do with ones time.

    If people want to generalize the actions of one into the actions of an entire group so be it, they have the right to be so ignorant. It’s not unlike saying, in jest “all muslims are terrorists” or “all priests are child molesters”.

    People should just get over themselves and play nice.

  414. #417 John Robie
    July 11, 2008

    This is AWESOME. I’ve never been “ilk” before.

  415. #418 Ubi Dubium
    July 11, 2008

    I would hope this Amy is a satire. If not – Amy – there are many former Catholics posting here. They know whereof they speak. And they are laughing right along with the rest of us, if not harder.

  416. #419 Amy
    July 11, 2008

    No satire here. Just sadness for all of you. I will pray for each and every one of you. You will see. If you don’t think there is a God…go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what goes through your mind. See if you get any clarity. I just ache for all of you who don’t understand. Don’t you want to play for the winning team? We want you on our team. We need you. We love you. We’re praying for you.

  417. #420 Blake Stacey
    July 11, 2008

    Ever heard of a little thing called the Catechism?

    Ever heard of a little thing called the Filioque? (Honest: it’s really little.)

  418. #421 Neural Transmissions
    July 11, 2008

    Amy @ 402

    You all preach respect and all of your liberal tolerance propoganda. Yet you are hypocrites in your actions. You are not tolerant with your viscious remarks and hateful words.

    It’s wrong to hate or be disrespectful towards people because of who they are — race, gender, sexual orientation, etc. People choose their beliefs and actions, so those are fair game. If you kill someone, we can criticize you and treat you with great contempt, even disrespect. For many of us, truth is a moral value, and we have great contempt for the forces of superstition and irrational thinking (especially when those people want to promulgate their mystical, magical, muddled thinking into public policy, and theists vote). We will never back down from that fight.

  419. #422 Reginald Selkirk
    July 11, 2008


    The Holy Eucharist is the body of Christ. If you don’t believe it, that is fine. Then please do not partake or desecrate it. Leave it alone. You all preach respect and all of your liberal tolerance propaganda.

    Sure Amy. Hindus hold that cows are sacred. You don’t have to believe it, but I expect you to abstain from eating beef. And Jews and Muslims hold that pigs are unclean. I don’t expect you to believe it, but I expect you to abstain from eating pork. Jains believe it is wrong to kill any living thing, even an insect. If you don’t believe it, that is fine. But I expect you to abstain from killing insects or any other living thing. Are you starting to get the picture?

  420. #423 jpf
    July 11, 2008

    @#402: Amy, please don’t masturbate in public. It’s unseemly.

  421. #424 Tyson Koska
    July 11, 2008

    Amy, as soon as I began to read your words I began to feel a presence within me… and a light, it shown from somewhere else… I think I found God in your post. Yes! it was in me all along! Thank you Amy!!!!!!!!

  422. #425 Blake Stacey
    July 11, 2008

    If you don’t think there is a God…go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what goes through your mind.

    What goes through a person’s mind does not necessarily reflect actual reality. A man wanting God to be real does not magically summon God into being, any more than a man wanting the love of a woman magically inspires that love to be given.

    I just ache for all of you who don’t understand. Don’t you want to play for the winning team? We want you on our team. We need you. We love you. We’re praying for you.

    Arrogance. Condescension. Smug self-satisfaction. Please, stop it. You win no friends that way.

  423. #426 Ubi Dubium
    July 11, 2008

    Ilk!??. I guess that was a step above “minions”. Perhaps this blog is actually an “Ilk Lodge”? (Or maybe a “Squid Squad”?)

    I’m holding out for “henchman”.

  424. #427 True Bob
    July 11, 2008

    People often have irrational beliefs. You should still treat them with respect.

    EGGSellent!

    Bigfoot
    Alien abductions
    Foil hats to repel CIA brain-control waves
    Flouridation is a communist plot
    SSNs are the mark of teh Beast
    Bar codes are the mark of teh Beast
    There’s a magical Lincoln – JFK connection
    Chupacabra
    A good bleeding will cure all ills
    Minerals have magic
    Water remembers
    Reading cards can predict the future
    Looking at a glowing ball can predict the future
    Sitting in a circle in the dark calls ghosts
    Nobody ever landed on the moon
    Nessie
    I am Napoleon
    I am Jesus
    Space aliens are behind a comet waiting to pick us up. Dead.

    And I haven’t really gotten into religion yet. Ron, you respect all those beliefs? Really truly? If you do, I cannot respect yours. As noted upthread(s) several hundreds ago, we respect the rights of people to believe whatever they want. We do NOT have to respect the belief itself.

  425. #428 Rey Fox
    July 11, 2008

    “I would hope this Amy is a satire.”

    No no no. People really do think like that. Lots of them. Is it that hard to believe?

    “Putting in a quick note saying “hai guys, it was sarcastic, lighten up” would suffice to cover his anatomy from any possible shenanigans.”

    Frankly, I think PZ will just continue to play coy and drive everybody nuts. With the lunacy this incident has reaped thus far, is any actual “desecration” even necessary?

  426. #429 Amy
    July 11, 2008

    It’s okay. I knew what kind of comments this would entice. Keep them coming if you like. If you need a target to feel good about yourself and your life, go ahead and take shots. I’ll just keep praying for you. :) Peace my brothers and sisters.

  427. #430 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    Amy @ #419

    If you don’t think there is a God…go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what goes through your mind.

    Wow.. and WE have the “vicious remarks”? How about you jump out of an airplane without a parachute. If a horde of angels saves you, I’ll convert.

  428. #431 Stanton
    July 11, 2008

    I think you misspelled it, it should be “Can this possibly get more inane?”

    I mean, for Criminy Cricket’s sake, all this crapastrophic hollering ballyhoo over the fact that you thinking that the calling of the theft of a Eucharist a “hate crime” silly and stupid?

  429. #432 JD
    July 11, 2008

    People often have irrational beliefs. You should still treat them with respect.

    Respect? Not a chance. But, they do need to be treated with caution as they’ve shown throughout history they’ll readily kill those who threaten the cult their fairy tales inspire and the political power it brings.

    #15,

    It’s projection. They’d burn us all at the stake if they could so they assume PZ, and anyone with a functioning brain, would do the same.

    I’ve no doubt that a substantial portion of the death cultists would like to burn us non-believers, but it’s not projection that’s behind these absurd assertions and fear mongering. These Christian leaders know full well what they’re doing. By creating a false fear of attack they want to inspire their flock to silence the critics and they really don’t care how or by what means that objective is achieved.

  430. #433 gdlchmst
    July 11, 2008

    I’ll just keep praying for you.

    Please don’t. I find that extremely offensive, and any praying on my behalf without my consent will be considered a hate crime.

  431. #434 Rey Fox
    July 11, 2008

    “go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what goes through your mind.”

    Wait, I’ve heard this joke before…the answer is “my ass”! Ha!

  432. #435 True Bob
    July 11, 2008

    If you don’t think there is a God…go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what goes through your mind.

    Same thing as yours – the ground.

  433. #436 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    Hessenroots

    I think you understand. All I want is for PZ instead of continuing to tweak that idiot Bill Donahue to come out with a post that says, “for gosh sakes, it’s satire you idiots.”

    It’s pretty clear to me that they think he’s serious. When I first read it I wasn’t really certain.

    I’m also not so certain that some person wouldn’t take PZ seriously and attempt such a boneheaded stunt.

  434. #437 raven
    July 11, 2008

    Does the US have a right to freedom of assembly? Does that freedom include a box of Ritz? You could all protest outside the RNC by quietly and sullenly eating crackers in twos or threes on every street corner for a few blocks surrounding the event.

    It’s time people!!! Brilliant idea!!! I’m stealing it!!!!

    It is time for Cracker Ins. In this performance art event, people will gather with boxes and bags of crackers. Toppings and dips are optional but highly encouraged. They will then silently and reverently eat the crackers. Unless they want to talk, drink beverages, or sing hymns about their crackers.

    Ritz are barely OK. A variety of crackers should be available for trades and sharing. Ritz, Cheez It, water, soda, Sociable, Nips, and so on.

    Cracker Ins will have to be combined with other activities. Who would drive miles just to eat crackers with fellow travelers? They would go well with the latest civil or criminal trials of Catholic priests. These are happening on a regular basis.

  435. #438 Jack Rawlinson
    July 11, 2008

    PZ, there is nothing a Christian likes more than being given an opportunity to play martyr. They get off on it almost as much as a Catholic priest gets off on being in close proximity to a comely altar boy. Sadly, this was predictable. They’ll be shrieking like horrified little girls about this for quite a while, I’m afraid. Since we atheists don’t go quite as far in persecuting Catholics as, say, Henry VIII did, they have to make the most of what they can get. Their weak, contemptible little souls need it.

  436. #439 CrypticLife
    July 11, 2008

    Amy,

    Go right ahead and have your “LARGE” family. But, how do you plan to keep them devout? You merely expect them to believe the same things that you do? Can you even begin to imagine your feelings when one of them becomes an atheist?

    You see, if you have a large family I won’t consider you to have brought a bunch of Catholics into the world. You will have brought a bunch of human beings into the world.

    You are right, many of us do not understand the Catholic faith (though, some are ex-Catholic and likely do). You laugh at the “complete idiocy” of commenters who find the idea that a foodstuff becomes instantiated with God several times a week worldwide, and that He wants us to *eat* Him, absurd?

  437. #440 Nobody
    July 11, 2008

    I think it’s vitally important that someone buy these (holy table breaking link batman):

    http://cgi.ebay.com/Communion-Bread-Wafers-Plain-Round-Box-of-1000_W0QQitemZ150143033747QQihZ005QQcategoryZ1447QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

    And have them shipped to PZ. A thousand communion wafers- come on that’s way better than just one. And these aren’t even soggy yet! And before you go saying that they need to be consecrated, it appears that the official church position is that the cracker is ALWAYS Jesus, even before it gets the magic words recited over it. I don’t have an ebay account, but seriously it’s only $15. For a thousand. If someone does this, Bill Donahue’s head might explode. Apologies if this has already been posted too- the find function isn’t turning up any other mention of ebay though.

  438. #441 craig
    July 11, 2008

    “Don’t you want to play for the winning team? We want you on our team. We need you. “

    As far as I can see, Team Batshit already has way too many players on the field.

  439. #442 pcarini
    July 11, 2008

    Blake Stacey @#425, talking about Amy:

    Arrogance. Condescension. Smug self-satisfaction. Please, stop it. You win no friends that way.

    Maybe she’s not here to make friends. (apologies in advance)

  440. #443 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    PZ

    If you were just some other professor from some university in the cold north, then I wouldn’t have taken so much space in your comments.

    The fact is, whether you like it or not, you’re somewhat of an atheist icon. If I were a theist I’d bake your likeness into some unleavened bread and desecrate it on Youtube.

    Perhaps you didn’t undertake the mantle of atheist leadership, but it doesn’t change the fact that you’re sort of a de facto leader.

  441. #444 Lago
    July 11, 2008

    Mr. Donohue’s freedom of speech seems to be based on removing others right’s to the same. He simply demands the right to impinge on the rights of others.

  442. #445 Feshy
    July 11, 2008

    Wow. Hypocrisy is a funny thing.

    1) PZ utilizes his free speech to say a cracker is a silly thing to venerate.
    2) PZ receives numerous death threats (not covered by the 1st amendment, I’d like to add.)
    3) Catholic League stirs up all its supporters to try to get PZ ousted.
    4) Catholic League claims PZ is the one stirring up trouble, and that they are just exercising their 1st amendment rights, and that PZ is a threat and they need extra security.

    It’s extraordinary that anyone could suffer from a disconnect so large that the above makes perfect sense to them.

  443. #446 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston

    We’re more or less on the same page in regard to that.

    Even if they knew the post was satire people would do it anyway.

    It’ll happen and I bet one (near useless) U.S. dollar that someone involved tries to blame PZ for it. Then the media gets it, puts it on spin cycle until nice and blown wayyy out of proportion.

    Guess I’ll draft up a few more notes of support for ol’ PZ. He shouldn’t need it but when the hounds come looking for an easy meal any little bit helps.

  444. #447 Trollhouse Crackers
    July 11, 2008

    There’s no point in going to Mass and smuggling out an actual wafer to desecrate, photograph, and post.

    We live in the digital age. The modern lolcow milker need only download a wafer .jpg, shop-desecrate in whatever image processing software, upload and link.

    Should be obvious to all parties concerned.

  445. #448 Patricia
    July 11, 2008

    #204 – JoJo – you are only a smidge off laddie (?) with your Ilk definition. From ‘The Clan Almanac’ by Charles Maclean, 1990 – there are sixteen clan chiefs that carry the title ‘of that Ilk’. So PZ would be PZ Myers of that Ilk. Chief of clan Pharyngula, I would guess. Myers is not a surname listed in the Almanac. That makes us Ilk, not ilk.
    #305 – Nick you smarty pants, nice detective work. ;)
    #317 – Peter Mc – you owe me some freshly fruited cold sangria!
    #393 – *gasp* – THAT is a very naughty word!
    Next thing you know PZ will be accused of running a bawdy house for all the strumpet & slut remarks posted around here. You really stirred them up PZ. Way to go! :)

  446. #449 mandrake
    July 11, 2008

    You know, after reading some of the mail PZ gets, I think threatening to desecrate the host is a pretty restrained response.

  447. #450 gdlchmst
    July 11, 2008

    @Ron #436

    You still don’t get it. While PZ might be too nonconfrontational to actually follow through, there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a stand against a plutocratic religious institution by not playing their silly ritual games.

  448. #451 Richard Murphy
    July 11, 2008

    The posting my Amy and her ilk reinforce the fact that religious belief really is just another form of mental illness. What is all this nonsence and all this outrage about crackers? Catholic priestly paedophiles were sexually and mentally abusing children on a global scale for many years and the church actively protected them – where was the outrage then? But for a f**king cracker they seem to pull out all the stops! Now there is something psycologically (nay, psychiatrically) adrift there. Today we wonder how the Catholic Inquisition could have fried people alive on large griddles, ripped people limb from limb – now we know. The current situation is the model of how the inquisition started. Amy and the other creepy religious nutters should really examine themselves in all of this. After all we are talking about a f**king cracker here!

  449. #452 Am I me?
    July 11, 2008

    “It is not a sin to laugh. It is a sin to blaspheme our God and defame a Holy religion.”

    Even though I know this is a troll, I just wanna make this distinction clear (as did Monty Python when Life of Brian was made). What’s going on here is heresy. That is, insulting and belittling the church, not the faith.

    Blasphemy is insulting God. While a lot of folk (myself included) *also* insult and belittle your “God”, the issue with the crackers falls under heresy not blasphemy in my opinion, as do the majority of comments here.

  450. #453 Logicel
    July 11, 2008

    As I am one of the ilk, let me try to save the government some money. Idiot Catholics bore me, and I don’t want to be near them, preferring to spend time with interesting folks that can teach me something. Since I will not be near them, I will not present a danger to them. Capiche?

    And even if I lucked out and managed to be within throwing distance of a Catholic, I would run the other way as they seem rather dangerous, especially if said Catholic is a huffing, puffing, full of bluster middle-aged crank whose initials are BD.

  451. #454 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    gdlchmst

    I’m all for taking stands against plutocratic religions. What PZ did was take it one step further. He (perhaps tongue in cheek) advocated going into their sacred places and causing chaos.

    The problem is the “tongue in cheek” part is not quite so clear. I’m just asking him to make the record clear that it was satire.

  452. #455 Doctor Spurt
    July 11, 2008

    There are *loads* of ways of getting communion wafers from on-line stores, including some with faintly creepy blurbs (“baked and ready to serve”, “produced in the United States in an exceptionally clean and modern facility”, “untouched by human hands”). Atheists should start stockpiling this stuff.

    And I reckon these bozos want extra security because they’re worried somebody might get close enough for them to hear an argument that wasn’t garbage.

  453. #456 Danio
    July 11, 2008

    Patricia wrote:

    #393 – *gasp* – THAT is a very naughty word!

    Indeed. But after being pelted with a sample of the crushingly inane, seemingly endless torrent of entitlement-drenched missives PZ has received in the past 48 hours, isn’t ‘bukkake’ pretty much the perfect descriptive term?

  454. #457 Mark A. Siefert
    July 11, 2008

    If you don’t believe in God, then is there really any truth?

    Ummmm… yes.

    2+2=4

    E=MC^2

    All life has evolved from common ancestors.

    World War II occured from September 1939 to August 1945.

    I could go on and on with truths that have NOTHING to do with your imaginary friend.

    None of you even understand the Catholic faith so you really don’t have a leg to stand on.

    I was baptized and raised Catholic, and went to mass each weekend and holidays until I was 25 when I realize what a crock of hate-filled superstitious bullshit the RCC is. During that time, I was anti-abortion, anti-gay, anti-communist (despite the end of Communism in the late 30s), and thought that local blue laws against adultery and fornication SHOULD be enforced again to “save the morality of American society.” Not surprisingly I was also a conservative/Republican too.

    Now I’m a pro-choice, pro-gay (before you claim otherwise, I’m hetero), pro-sexual freedom, pro-free speech, libertarian-centrist, independent voting, atheist.

    So, don’t assume that I know what I’m talking about when I criticize my former religion, lady. I’ve been THERE and done THAT.

    Ever heard of a little thing called the Catechism? Check it out in combination with the Bible if you want the Truth. Amen.

    What do the collected ramblings of a bunch of primitive desert nomads and a male-dominated cult of Medieval throw backs have anything to do with “truth?”

  455. #458 Patrick
    July 11, 2008

    This has been interesting so far, but it’s now crossed the line into total hilarity.

  456. #459 bunnycatch3r
    July 11, 2008

    Looks like the Catholick Church has borrowed a few tactics from Co$. I wonder if we’re looking at a potential merger?

  457. #460 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    @ 450

    I can’t speak for Ron but I defend the notion of PZ making such a post not out of placation or trying to make nice. Simply bowing down because someone’s feelings got hurt isn’t the way to go at all.

    I’m thinking about the media. Should they decide to latch on and use it to sell some papers they’ll make it out however they need to for the almighty dollar. Usually that doesn’t involve making religion look like the bad guy. At least having the words in print, no matter how short, concise or blunt would provide a bit of coverage from the headhunting doomsayers of Knight-Ridder and the likes.

    I firmly stand on the idea of respecting ones right to a belief but not having to respect that belief. I like pork, beef, crackers, working on Sunday, having premarital sex (promiscuously no less!) and all other such wonderful things life has to offer.

    All in all I think people can do whatever they want. If they start pissing folks off or getting pushy about it they shouldn’t be surprised when there’s a backlash.

    Irrational response over nibbly bits included.

  458. #461 Caveat
    July 11, 2008

    @398

    He needs to make clear to his “ilk” that he’s not advocating that they actively go into Catholic churches to attempt to obtain consecrated communion wafers.

    Um, Ron.

    We’re atheists, remember? We think for ourselves. Anybody can advocate anything they like. We only do what we WANT to do, ie, what seems reasonable.

    We don’t blindly obey the admonishments of an invisible author we’ve never met.

    That’s for the Cracker Crowd.

    Dig? Good, now go away.

  459. #462 MAJeff, OM
    July 11, 2008

    The funniest thing is how these right-wing fuckwits (yes, I know that’s redundant) are pulling out the, “Why don’t you do this to Muslim icons” shit, showing that they’ve never visited the site (liars or stupid?), and that they’re typical rightwing fucktards obsessed with their own grievances (“christians are so oppressed” blah blah blah)..

    …and they complain about other people being cowards while completely shitting their pants because of some kind of Muslim horde going to overrun America.

    Delusional stupidity doesn’t even begin to cover these morons.

  460. #463 Wowbagger
    July 11, 2008

    Amy wrote:

    I’m going to have a lovely LARGE devout Catholic family

    I feel sorry for your vagina.

  461. #464 idahogie
    July 11, 2008

    Christ, Ron from Houston, give it up. You’ve made your point 15 times already. Very few people – maybe 1 or 2 – agree with you.

    You’re a tenacious concern troll, aren’t you.

  462. #465 Patricia
    July 11, 2008

    @Danio – Yeah, put in that context, you’re right. It’s just that I haven’t come into contact with that word in probably 45 years. Kinda sat me back in my seat – in a shocking, funny/super naughty way. I didn’t think anyone knew that word anymore. ;)

  463. #466 Moggie
    July 11, 2008

    Fear and paranoia are pretty much all the GOP has to run on. They’re probably delighted with this series of events.

  464. #467 gdlchmst
    July 11, 2008

    I’m all for taking stands against plutocratic religions. What PZ did was take it one step further. He (perhaps tongue in cheek) advocated going into their sacred places and causing chaos.

    No, PZ didn’t advocate publicly causing trouble in the churches. What he advocated was public desecration of crackers. Subtle difference.

    The problem is the “tongue in cheek” part is not quite so clear. I’m just asking him to make the record clear that it was satire.

    Again, the principle is the same whether it is tongue in cheek or not. Abusing a cracker is really kinda silly, and when church leaders’ heads start popping and demand that people be banned from doing it, it is a ban worth breaking.

  465. #468 Logicel
    July 11, 2008

    Amy types bored me when growing up as a child of a Catholic parent; Amy types bore me when I find myself unwittingly in their company. Happily, Amy types will no longer have the opportunity to bore me to the vomiting stage after my death as I will no longer exist and will at last be spared of their incessant, pathetic, bleating nonsense.

    Religites are zombies, stalking thinking people everywhere, with their idiotic and feigned kindness of wanting you to respect, know their terrifying, ugly beliefs. Apparently they can’t tell bad from good, and think you are suffering from the same malady.

  466. #469 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    Amy wrote:

    I’m going to have a lovely LARGE devout Catholic family

    Wowbagger wrote:

    I feel sorry for your vagina.

    I feel sorry for the taxpayers of whatever state you live in.

    Please don’t procreate beyond your means, it’s wasteful.

  467. #470 bunnycatch3r
    July 11, 2008

    Oh, I forgot to add a few other important items.
    1)The overwhelming response to the cracker thread reminds me of Harry Potter book 7.
    2)Maybe we should start a photo/video blog dedicated soley to cracker desecration. I don’t know what service it would provide but it sure seems like there would be plenty of interest.
    Ok, I’m through.

  468. #471 Mena
    July 11, 2008

    If you want to see it get more insane/inane, Vox Day weighed in on the subject.
    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/07/aspergers-strikes-again.html
    (full of koran envy)
    and
    http://voxday.blogspot.com/2008/07/pz-asks-for-letters.html
    (mocking some of the letters that were posted here and thinking that PZ is weak for posting that he would like letters written to Pres. Bruininks)

  469. #472 John Morris
    July 11, 2008

    wow i can’t believe this is happening – you’re sweet – i support you babe – just keep on———————————————-

  470. #473 Greg
    July 11, 2008

    Somehow I get the feeling that this is closer to the truth –
    Jesus – “Bite Me!”
    Church – “no no…too trashy, we need to flesh it out a little to sell more stuff…how about we try this?, Eat of this for it is my flesh….”

  471. #474 John Morris
    July 11, 2008

    wow i can’t believe this is happening – you’re sweet – i support you babe – just keep on———————————————-

  472. #475 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    @ Patricia

    As a former employee of a shop who’s main source of revenue was adult DVDs and magazine I can assure you that the word is still alive and well in certain circles ;P

  473. #476 MAJeff, OM
    July 11, 2008

    I, a devout Catholic, will pray for all of your souls. Because I love you. …

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

  474. #477 Kristine
    July 11, 2008

    Ron in Houston –

    I offend fundy Muslims all the time.

    Now get over yourself.

  475. #478 MAJeff, OM
    July 11, 2008

    Posted by: Amy | July 11, 2008 6:53 PM

    Stop playing with your mind until you’ve developed the appropriate skills to use it. Put it away now; you’re obviously not using it.

  476. #479 MAJeff, OM
    July 11, 2008

    I’ll just keep praying for you.

    Thank you. Coming from people like you, that’s sort of comforting; it’s better than you actually doing something that might have an effect.

  477. #480 octopod
    July 11, 2008

    I particularly like the “You wouldn’t desecrate the KORAN!”, when (IIRC) when you did suggest doing so, everyone threw fifteen kinds of shit fits…

  478. #481 MAJeff, OM
    July 11, 2008

    I feel sorry for your vagina.
    Is it a clown car?

  479. #482 Moses
    July 11, 2008

    In summary:

    1) Webster Cook shouldn’t have taken the host without asking.

    Let’s be clear, his intention was to show a friend part of his Catholic beliefs. There’s no reason for him not to have taken the wafer back to his seat. It’s not like he’s the first to do it, either. I had a friend do the same for me. I had a girlfriend, who was Jewish, go even further and TOOK communion. I’ve considered it on more than one occasion, but I was afraid I might screw up and give myself away and get embarrassed in front of the church.

    These things happen all the time and nobody gets their panties in a wad. So, in the grand scheme of things it was a big fat NOTHING.

    Right until some fool over-reacted and assaulted him to get the wafer back.

    2) The diocese has a right to be upset and take action over the theft.

    It’s not theft. And I’m sure any abuser has a “right” to get upset when the little woman files assault charges. It doesn’t mean the upset is valid.

    Once again, this is not so uncommon that anybody on the Church side needs to have a freak-out. This happens every now and then at most large Catholic churches and nobody freaks out.

    Just as nobody checks to see if a heathen is taking communion. There are no body cavity searches to make sure nobody is “stealing” it.

    And, BTW, when they GIVE you the cracker, it’s your cracker. You’re not “stealing” it. Calling it theft is, at best, the worst sort of concern trolling and muddled thinking available.

    3) Extreme reactions like death threats against Cook are completely unacceptable.
    4) PZ has a right to mock the whole situation.
    5) People have a right to be offended by PZ’s comments and say so.
    6) Donohue is blowing the whole thing out of proportion.

    Posted by: James F | July 11, 2008 3:32 PM

    Glad to see you’re not going completely concern troll. Except to some fringe-lunatic catholics, this wasn’t a big deal. Those that I know, all of whom run to the moderate-to-liberal bent cluck their tounges and shake their heads at the church. Not the kid.

    Some even start on stories about sneaking out the communion wine and getting drunk on the blood of Jesus. Getting in trouble. All that jazz.

    Seriously, except for the professionally offended, it’s a big, fat nothing.

  480. #483 Ichthyic
    July 11, 2008

    It is time for Cracker Ins.

    I have to say, that sounds like a great idea, but I wonder just how wide the knowledge of this event (crackergate) really goes?

    I think doing it at the RNC, while explicitly pointing out the link to Donowhore, might make some sense, but as a general protest, I wonder if anyone would actually “get it”.

    Tangentially, I wonder just how many Catholics Donowhore actually speaks for?

    There is some question as to whether his “organization” is sanctioned at large by the CC, or only supported by select segments of it.

    “[Donohue] has made it his business to protest every bit of pop culture and politics that doesn’t mesh perfectly with his strict views on Catholic doctrine” and added that many have noted that he is a “total media hound”.[12]

    quoted from the wiki article on Donowhore, original source here:

    http://www.salon.com/news/feature/2007/02/13/kissling/

    interesting.

    Wiki says Donowhore’s organization could claim around 350,000 members. While decent sized, this hardly means he speaks for all Catholics.

    That said, regardless of who this moron claims to speak for, and which parts of the “official CC” support him (I’m looking at YOU New York), it would be a good thing for EVERYONE if we could put this bastion of idiocy out of business.

    What PZ is doing now is probably the most efficient attack against Donowhore I’ve seen in the last few years.

    Hopefully, it will foment interest in others to pile on.

    Flame on!

  481. #484 karen marie
    July 11, 2008

    CL sez: “Given the vitriol we have experienced for simply exercising our First Amendment right to freedom of speech, we support Foley’s request [for more security].”

    has bill donahue and the catholic league read ANY of this thread?

    the only vitriol i’ve seen, after reading a couple thousand comments, has been from those who think it perfectly reasonable to threaten to murder someone because someone else has either maliciously or recklessly told them that the first someone STOLE a eucharist and was HOLDING IT RANSOM as a protest about use of student fee funds.

    and none of their story is true. he didn’t steal it, he was assaulted, in church, by a busybody who had no right to touch him, much less grab his wrist and attempt to pry his fingers open. having had enough catholic charity, mr. cook then left the building and immediately filed a complaint about the assaultive behavior, triggering “the only reasonable” response church officials could come up with: to file a complaint against mr. cook for allegedly “disrupting” the church service and attempt to have him expelled from school.

    church officials then proceeded to compound an already bad situation by providing inaccurate and deceitful information to other people who, enraged at this heinous desecration, began running around variously passing on increasingly inaccurate and inflammatory versions of the story or communicating death threats to mr. cook.

    but no, leave it to bill donahue and the catholic league to up the ante by snowballing the wildly inaccurate story and then throwing a hissy fit after reading professor myers’ post of july 8 based on the july 7 story “student who took religious icon getting death threats” over at “myfox orlando.” the result of said hissy fit and further promolugation of the serial untruths which were piling up (and continue to) professor myers has received death threats.

    the comment thread is littered with vitriolic comments by self-identifying christians ranging from outrage at a desecration which it turns out didn’t actually happen to threats of murder and mayhem against atheists and/or non-catholics/non-christians.

    it truly boggles the mind.

    all this because mr. cook had the temerity to wait to swallow his wafer till his friend (who showed more respect for the catholic church than did sally quinn by not intruding himself at the communion rail where, as a non-catholic, he had no right) had an opportunity to see this transformative bit of crumb. for that crime, mr. cook was assaulted, IN A CHURCH.

    let that sink in.

    he was assaulted in a church. and now he is being viciously maligned by the catholic church, bill donahue and the catholic league [are we sure this isn't a band?] and a large number of people who make claims about gun ownership and ability and willingness to use a gun against “desecreters.”

    wow.

    and the GOP needs armed protection from myers and his merry band of atheists?

    i’m reeling from the sheer magnitude of the asshattery, az thay sa en thu intertubz.

    this thread has been very educational. i have learned all kinds of things and have inserted comments throughout here as some of them came up. but at this moment the lesson i am recognizing is that, yes, virginia, some of them are in fact MUCH crazier than you could possibly imagine, although i have never personally doubted the extent of the danger the asshats pose to the health and safety of those they choose as their targets.

    mr. cook received death threats from people on the basis of willful and malicious lies told by people attempting to cover their asses and hide their seriously inappropriate, and criminal, behavior. funny that, i had always heard that churches were considered sanctuaries where violence dare not enter. oh, that’s right, i almost forgot about the child-raping priests. never mind.

    and pz myers’ crime? he had the audacity to publicly express outrage that a fellow human being should be threatened over claimed but untrue allegations of mistreatment of a cracker, that a group of people who claim to operate under a superior moral code should be publicly declaring this act that didn’t actually happen not just a hate crime but “worse than a hate crime.”

    sure, there are silly people who don’t quite have a grasp of satire who may believe pz myers was seriously advocating invading catholic churches to “steal” communion wafers, but how can anyone, with a straight face, compare that with what bill donahue and the catholic league and the officials of the catholic church in question have done here, the former as an attention-seeking stunt, the latter to distract attention from unjustified assaultive behavior against a communicant INSIDE THE CHURCH, DURING A CHURCH SERVICE.

    so can we get some clarification from the GOP as to their claim that “additional security” is going to be required at the convention? did i miss something? is the GOP a catholic organization? did a stray death threat jump out, tap a GOP party member on the shoulder and promise to come back for the convention?

    it seems like an enormous ruckus to cover up the fact that mr. cook was physically assaulted IN A CHURCH by “a church leader.” but, hey, i was always taught to admit when i had done something wrong. apparently it’s different for catholics.

    i hope my narrative has been helpful as i think there are a lot of commenters here who are not conversant with the actual facts, as opposed to the various fictional versions which people have heard and have been arguing from.

  482. #485 Ichthyic
    July 11, 2008

    Please don’t procreate beyond your means, it’s wasteful.

    I would recommend that person avoiding reproduction all together, for all our sakes.

    http://home.earthlink.net/~tjneal/stupid.wav

    Help stamp out this mindless mindlessness.

  483. #486 Dan
    July 11, 2008

    Amy wrote: “If you don’t think there is a God…go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what goes through your mind.”

    I can answer that. HOLY SHIIITTT!!! I hope I did not blaspheme calling shit holy. My bad.

  484. #487 Jon G.
    July 11, 2008

    Perhaps they can issue consecrated crosses & crackers to the security teams. Maybe wooden stakes too. And they can take anyone who DARES to exercise their rights under the first amendment to speak or congregate freely and they can cruicify them. Perhaps, PZ, you should send out a call for nails, because I’m sure that consecrated nails might be in short supply. Maybe they want to dig a moat around the convention and fill it with holy water. Probably might want to put a few F-18s in the air overhead too, because you might come flying in like Ironman, with a jetpack powered by “frackin crackers.”

  485. #488 Moses
    July 11, 2008

    However, as an atheist, I’m beginning to frankly find you an embarrassment.

    Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 4:18 PM

    Wow, it took all that time? I found you to be an embarrassment in just one line of just one post.

  486. #489 Patricia
    July 11, 2008

    #475 – Hessenroots – ARRRRGH!!!
    There went the second mouth full of fresh fruity sangria. Yuck – please don’t tell me. It must have degenerated over the passed decades since my nasty little brothers said it in their most vile conversations.
    There must be some branch of science that studies peoples visceral reactions to words.
    Still, ICKY POO!

  487. #490 Ichthyic
    July 11, 2008

    “If you don’t think there is a God…go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what [the last thing is that] goes through your mind.”

    actually, that’s a rather classic joke.

    the answer is:

    your ass.

  488. #491 Moses
    July 11, 2008

    #157We’ll let you know when that actually happens. Until then, you guys have the monopoly on that.
    Yes, because atheists sending death threats to theists has NEVER, EVER happened. EVER.

    “I’ve never seen an atheist send a death threat to a theist, so obviously no atheist has ever done so.”

    Obviously, atheists have the monopoly on logical fallacies.

    Posted by: pbnj | July 11, 2008 4:19 PM

    Actually it seemed that he was telling you to put on proof. You made a claim that atheists (within the scope of being atheists, not irate husbands, jilted lovers, or crazy fucks) send death threats to theists. (With your unstated argument of “na-na-ha so are you!!!”)

    If so, put on proof.

    And if you managed to find one, provide it’s authenticity than, let’s say, sock puppetry from a dubious source.

    BTW, your inability to comprehend what is being asked, through the device of irony, doesn’t make another’s logical fallacy. Just an FYI.

  489. #492 Moses
    July 11, 2008

    Googling “C.J. Simones” is enlightening.

    Posted by: Kristine | July 11, 2008 4:44 PM

    He’s another Larry Farfarman! Larry is my hero. When ever I need to know something, I ask Larry.

    The opposite is nearly always true.

  490. #493 Martha
    July 11, 2008

    I’m a former Catholic (confirmed and everything) and half of my family are still devout Catholics. They are good people and I love them all.

    If someone were to insult them as people (ei, Catholics reek of frankincense and cheat at scrabble), I’d be offended. But they haven’t been.

    PZ Myers has merely ridiculed some beliefs they hold. I don’t have a problem with this because a person is so much more than a few indoctrinated beliefs and you can still respect a person without respect for what they believe in.

  491. #494 Kel
    July 11, 2008

    Can this possibly get more insane?

    Given that all this is over a cracker, it both can and will.

  492. #495 Moses
    July 11, 2008

    Taking something under false pretenses is just that. Theft.

    Does anyone see that it’s insulting to ask for a gift that you’re going to destroy. I think the Catholics look like a bunch of lunatics, but PZ is just adding to the lunacy.

    Come on people get some common sense.

    PZ clear the public record. The balls in your court now.

    Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 4:52 PM

    You don’t seem to understand the concept of “theft.” But a dictionary, read the definition:

    1 a: the act of stealing; specifically : the felonious taking and removing of personal property with intent to deprive the rightful owner of it b: an unlawful taking (as by embezzlement or burglary) of property

    When they GIVE you the cracker, it’s no longer theirs. No matter how many panties get in a wad because you don’t follow the dogma in the specific manner in which the cracker-giver wants.

    Seriously, when I was a kid I used to take seconds, and up to fourths and fifths, out of the communion plate because I’d get hungry. Nobody had an ape-shit attack because it was just Wonder BREAD or sometimes CRACKERS. (Yummy crackers.) Nobody said “Book him Danno!” and hauled me off to Hawaii 5-0. Kojack didn’t beat down my door. Dirty Harry didn’t say “do you feel lucky, punk? Well do you?” and shoot me.

    Nobody did anything at all.

    Because people who are grown up can understand these things.

    Without going apeshit.

    Seriously, you’re just fucking clueless and tiresome. You don’t even have a good troll argument. Just lame waaaa – waaaa…

  493. #496 Longtime Lurker
    July 11, 2008

    Re: DrB@148

    The last two words are just a hat tip. The real concern is all of the Minnesota Lutherans. We all know how well it worked out last time Catholics and Lutherans mixed it up.

    Maybe the governor of Minnesota can issue something like the Concordat of Worms for the state. Concordat of Duluth?

  494. #497 MAJeff, OM
    July 11, 2008

    Maybe the governor of Minnesota can issue something like the Concordat of Worms for the state. Concordat of Duluth?

    Nope, gotta be somewhere in Wisconsin. The WELS people are some crazy motherfuckers–they make the Missouri Synod look like Queer Feminist Marxist-Anarchists.

  495. #498 Moses
    July 11, 2008

    Good grief; is it really being claimed (with, I assume, some supporting documentation?) that around 1 in 25 of these purportedly caring, saintly, devout, (etc etc) men is a pedophile? That really would be a nasty thought. Just how many is this claimed to add up to? Obviously this mythical god of theirs really did mean “suffer the little children”.

    Posted by: tim rowledge | July 11, 2008 6:00 PM

    Sadly, yes:

    The John Jay Report, [3] commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, found accusations against 4392 priests in the USA, equalling about 4% of of all U.S. priests between 1950 and 2002.

  496. #499 Hessenroots
    July 11, 2008

    @ 489 – Patricia

    Sorry to waste your tasty beverage!

  497. #500 Ron in Houston
    July 11, 2008

    I’m so glad that PZ’s blog is full of highly evolved rational humanists who believe in things like morality and rationality above things like ignorant superstition.

    Attack me all you want. Call me names and say what you will. However, you fail to realize that you are showing yourself to be the same intolerant, self-righteous bigots that you’re attacking in your bile.

    Pot meet kettle. Or to borrow the words of the highly egoic and esteemed PZ Myers – “demented [theistic] fuckwits” – meet your fucking highly evolved and rational atheist fuckwits.

    All I can say is that a lot of people on this blog are great arguments for the need for natural selection. PZ included.

  498. #501 Kel
    July 11, 2008

    @martha

    If someone were to insult them as people (ei, Catholics reek of frankincense and cheat at scrabble), I’d be offended. But they haven’t been.

    PZ Myers has merely ridiculed some beliefs they hold. I don’t have a problem with this because a person is so much more than a few indoctrinated beliefs and you can still respect a person without respect for what they believe in.

    Exactly. the problem with people is they can’t separate belief from their person, so when someone dumps on their beliefs it’s an automatic response to feel offended. PZ Myers isn’t insulting any Catholics (except Donohue but that guy is a bastard) he’s making fun of a silly old belief that somehow saying a few words can make a cracker turn into flesh. And beliefs like that deserve to be ridiculed because they are absurd.

    Not in a single instance does it take away any Catholic’s right to believe. Not in a single instance does it take away the meaning of the belief. Not in a single instance is it a personal attack on Catholicism. And by using offence to gain a moral high-ground, it just shows that people who believe in an absurdity feel that they above all others have the right to keep their delusion.

  499. #502 MAJeff, OM
    July 11, 2008

    OH NOES! TEH CUNSERN TROLL IS TEH FUSSY!

  500. #503 Geoff
    July 11, 2008

    Well them’s fightin’ words. I’m flying to Minnesota and I will be armed –

    – with a HERRING!

  501. #504 idahogie
    July 11, 2008

    That’s a fine farewell message, Ron in Houston. Have a nice life.

  502. #505 Tyler DiPietro
    July 11, 2008

    “All I can say is that a lot of people on this blog are great arguments for the need for natural selection. PZ included.”

    And thus he wraps it up with an endorsement of social Darwinism. (the “need” of natural selection? Good one).

  503. #506 Moses
    July 11, 2008

    I , a devout Catholic, will pray for all of your souls. Because I love you. Every sad, angry, wounded, abused, confused, anti-conservative, anti-Catholic one of you.

    Thanks for nothing Amy. But if you’re going to do any praying, pray for the virgin asses that are going to be raped by a pedophile priest given succour by the Catholic Church, mkay?

    It won’t do a damn bit of good. But you’ll be able think you did something constructive.

  504. #507 Cary
    July 11, 2008

    Isn’t the convention in St. Paul?

  505. #508 Helioprogenus
    July 11, 2008

    Amy, take your self-righteousness to other similarly self righteous religious whack jobs. Every idiot with an unsubstantiated belief thinks that they have the answer in their hearts, when in truth, you’re all equally as wrong. Look, it’s fine that you waste your time coming here telling us how you’re going to populate the earth with your ignorance, but don’t expect us to fall over and convert to your idiotic belief system when nothing you say makes any logical sense. OK, you can string words together into sentences, congratulations, but try to extend that into reasoning and empirical thinking.

    Amy, I hate to tell you this, but in case you haven’t noticed, you and your minions revere a 2000 year old dead jew whose flesh and blood you eat and drink. Think about this and then try to tell us again what makes us wrong in thinking you’re totally and absolultely insane.

  506. #509 Pierce R. Butler
    July 11, 2008

    If anybody here has Photoshop skills and is looking for a project, may I humbly request an image of the great Kong atop the Empire State Building, besieged by biplanes piloted by Donohue and Ratzinger, tenderly clutching a Kommunion Kracker?

  507. #510 Kristine
    July 11, 2008

    Hey, I just remembered this – I once was given two communion wafers because people were supposed to dunk them into the wine first, and I didn’t – I just munched it and then looked around for those lil’ glasses of Mogen David that they used to use. So they gave me another one to dunk.

    That’s what happens when an athey takes communion for the sake of other people in the room (because I was trying not to, ahem, embarrass alleged athies like Ron in Houston).

    I used to hear insults against transubstantiation all the time from other Christians who believed only in transubstitution.

    Ron in Houston, you just insulted those Christians! For shame! (Maybe you should just draw your curtains and go to bed. I hope you haven’t killed any insects in your life – an insult to Buddhists and Jains, you know.)

  508. #511 MAJeff, OM
    July 11, 2008

    If anybody here has Photoshop skills and is looking for a project, may I humbly request an image of the great Kong atop the Empire State Building, besieged by biplanes piloted by Donohue and Ratzinger, tenderly clutching a Kommunion Kracker?

    Please include the rapist racketeer Bernard Law.

  509. #512 chuko
    July 11, 2008

    @Kobra – the Catholic church does actively protect and defend child molesters in their ranks. So “global paedophile ring” is not so bad a description.

    @Ron – I’m inclined to think of all this “desecration” stuff as pretty childish, but did you notice the reaction? Death threats, vilification of our community? As satire, it works. My opinion is that it would be juvenile if there was no point (lots of groups of silly rituals, why interfere with them?), but the Catholic League has clearly demonstrated that there is: to demonstrate that they don’t make a distinction between harming a cracker and violence against actual people.

  510. #513 Ichthyic
    July 11, 2008

    I can’t help but note, after more than 3000 posts, that not ONE person claiming themselves to be Catholic has actually even remotely attempted to make a logical argument supporting transubstantiation of a cracker.

    not one.

    just a bunch of misplaced concern trolling, misplaced anger, and misplaced persecution fantasies.

    evidently, the only rational catholics have already realized the pointlessness of trying to defend both the irrational beliefs, and the irrational responses to them by people claiming to be catholics.

    again, I post the only remotely sane response from a Catholic I noted in any of the threads:

    Ok, this is craziness. I’m Catholic, and when I first read the story, I thought “Yeah, that guy was a bit rude for just taking the Eucharist like that”, and that was it. No death threats. No calls for people to be fired. No demands to have the host back (for what reason?? There are stacks and stacks of them in any church!!). Just a bit of a headshake, and that’s it. Why people are making such a huge deal about this, I have no idea. They’ve got nothing else on the go I suppose. It stories like this that don’t make me feel great about my beliefs at all. I don’t always agree with what your blog says when it comes to religion, but this time, I do.

    Posted by: Josh | July 10, 2008 5:14 PM

  511. #514 Pam Ronald
    July 11, 2008

    we need you PZ. dont let catholics or republicans or university presidents or anyone else stop the blogs. And please ask your president to send police protection to your house. no kidding.

  512. #515 Ichthyic
    July 11, 2008

    correction to #513:

    and the irrational responses to [having] them [challenged] by people claiming to be catholics.

  513. #516 Janine ID
    July 11, 2008

    I’m going to have a lovely LARGE devout Catholic family.

    Posted by: Amy

    Amy, are you able to predict the future? True, you may give birth to many children. You may try to raise them to believe as you do. But that does not mean that all of your future children will follow you.

    If you know what these future people will be, you are blessed with an ability that the rest of us lack. Just where did you acquire this ability? I doubt it is from your god.

    Now what is the traditional way for the church to handle women who have ungodly talents?

  514. #517 freelunch
    July 11, 2008

    I hope Donohue keeps wandering around Minneapolis looking for the convention, because if he ever finds his way to St. Paul, someone who is offended that he cannot tell the difference between the two may help him learn the difference, in a good St. Paul Irish Catholic way, of course.

  515. #518 Bubba Sixpack
    July 11, 2008

    Damn! I was ready to kidnap another Catholic wafer, and was planning to hold it hostage and threaten to step on it at the Republican National Convention in the Twin Cities, unless I obtained my global domination demands. They must have found out somehow.

  516. #519 Moses
    July 11, 2008

    #411It is not a sin to laugh. It is a sin to blaspheme our God and defame a Holy religion. None of you even understand the Catholic faith so you really don’t have a leg to stand on. I am seriously laughing at the complete idiocy of most of these comments. Ever heard of a little thing called the Catechism? Check it out in combination with the Bible if you want the Truth. Amen.

    Posted by: Amy | July 11, 2008 6:56 PM

    The problem, Amy, is that you believe in “sin.” We don’t. Sin is a religious concept in that you have acted against God or his commandments.

    Since we believe in no God and do not recognize your religions commandments, like stoning disobedient children, or gays, or any others to death beyond how similar concepts are enshrined within secular law and tend to arise in every civilization, regardless of religious heritage (making them not the exclusive province of your beliefs, no matter how delusional you are about them) we, literally, cannot “sin” from a religious perspective.

    We can commit crimes. We can mock fools, such as yourself and the concern-troll-Ron, who seem to think their way is “the only way” and seek to bully and bludgeon and shame others into submission without presenting even the slightest rational argument.

    A tactic that, frankly, doesn’t work well here. Rather, you need to have some grasp of the issue. Marshall your facts. Make some type of argument based on these facts.

  517. #520 MAJeff, OM
    July 11, 2008

    I sooooooooo wish there were Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence in the Twin Cities. Wouldn’t the Larry Craig airport stall be a great space for communion performance art?!?!

  518. #521 Ichthyic
    July 11, 2008

    Wouldn’t the Larry Craig airport stall be a great space for communion performance art?!?!

    now THAT is a picture worth visualizing.

  519. #522 Trance Gemini
    July 11, 2008

    This has got to be the funniest thing I’ve read in a while.

    What’s the extra security for? In case the Catholics decide to bring their Eucharist crackers along? Can’t have those kidnapped can we.

    What’s sick is that some think that crackers are more important than humans and express that through death threats!

    Just insane!

  520. #523 Ichthyic
    July 11, 2008

    But that does not mean that all of your future children will follow you.

    it depends on how much psychological and physical torture she is willing to utilize to make sure all her progeny will be “safe” from an eternity in hell…

  521. #524 Ichthyic
    July 11, 2008

    Just insane!

    *bing*

    It is a sin to blaspheme our God and defame a Holy religion

    spoken like a good little Islamic extremist.

    oh wait, you say you’re Catholic?

    so hard to tell the difference between one idiotic extremist and another.

  522. #525 Jata
    July 11, 2008

    Amy, if you’re still reading these comments (although, I wouldn’t blame you if you weren’t), I’d love if you emailed me at parijata@uchicago.edu. I’m not going to harass you for your faith; I’m genuinely curious about what you’ve got to say. Call me crazy, but I’ve always had a soft spot for Catholics — my mother was one. Also, Catholic theology is the only Christian kind that attempts to make sense. I doubt you’d actually email me, and I’m probably going to get trolled by my dear fellow atheists (I know how you think, you sinful Pharygulites :-P), but I’m in a friendly mood, and I’d love to chat.

  523. #526 decrepitoldfool
    July 11, 2008

    This is not really so mysterious; it’s projection, plain and simple. Until recently, their tradition was to respond to offense with violence but this pluralistic society made them stop. Since they’d like to do something nasty they can’t imagine only wanting to ridicule and satirize.

    To any Catholics reading; violence is your shtick, and oppression too. And don’t say it isn’t anymore: your church has on its hands the blood of millions of AIDS victims, the hopeless social isolation of gays, the enslavement of women giving birth again and again until their bodies give out and their children die of starvation, the dark hole of poverty in remote villages while your holy man lives in a palatial art gallery. Will you fix all that stuff if we promise to always respect your cracker?

  524. #527 Bryn
    July 11, 2008

    Gosh! I always wanted to be an ilk…or maybe it was a moose. In any case, I’m ever so honored.

  525. #528 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 11, 2008

    Don’t you people ever take a break for important things?

    Like drinking?
    :)

  526. #529 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 11, 2008

    spoken like a good little Islamic extremist.

    oh wait, you say you’re Catholic?

    so hard to tell the difference between one idiotic extremist and another.

    Wait. You’re saying there actually IS a difference?!?!?

  527. #530 Quiet Desperation
    July 11, 2008

    “King Kong Theory of Creation”

    I am *so* stealing that. :-)

  528. #531 AndyD
    July 11, 2008

    I haven’t read all (or any of the) 529 previous comments but maybe the additional security is to keep the Catholics in lest they commit the acts of violence they’ve threatened.

    The article says “can worship without fear of violence”. It doesn’t say who they expect to perpetrate said violence.

  529. #532 waldteufel
    July 11, 2008

    Our batshit crazy friend Bill is a fervent advocate of free speech, as long as you agree with him. Otherwise, he’d cheerfully, I’m sure, set a pack of Jesuit priests loose to track you down and play inquisition with you. I’ll bet Bill sleeps with a life-like doll of Cardinal Torquemada . . . . .

  530. #533 Pierce R. Butler
    July 11, 2008

    Can this possibly get more insane?

    At times, I despair of Prof. Myers’s naiveté… Hasn’t anyone told him that questions of that sort are taken as a personal challenge by trickster gods of every pantheon?

    On finally prying myself loose from the continuing Mass-Cracker Massacre, I dropped in at Panda’s Thumb, only to see the latest John Freshwater news.

    So of course I had to rush back here to ask whether anyone knows of a person so vile and twisted as to burn a cross onto a cracker with an electrostatic device, in the presence of schoolchildren?

  531. #534 IBY
    July 12, 2008

    Answering PZ’s question, yes, this can get more insane. I know it is unbelievable, but… believe it.

  532. #535 Ichthyic
    July 12, 2008

    Wait. You’re saying there actually IS a difference?!?!?

    of course there is!

    their dusty goatherder tomes have different titles, and the names are changed to protect the innocent…

    plus, they wear different hats.

    that’s important.

  533. #536 Ichthyic
    July 12, 2008

    Don’t you people ever take a break for important things?

    Like drinking?

    excellent point.

    cheers

  534. #537 themadlolscientist
    July 12, 2008

    ERV wins this thread at #4. Game over.

  535. #538 platypus
    July 12, 2008

    Wow, what a firestorm of comments from these threads! If there is one thing I learned from the responses on these blogs, its that I will make a greater effort to have respect another’s beliefs, no matter how ridiculous they may seem to me.

    It is commendable for PZ to protest the actions of the UCF and Catholic Church against WC. However, what PZ proposes goes beyond merely protesting, it is an outright declaration of war, and the Catholic League is happy to oblige. I’m not sure what good will be accomplished here. These are not the actions of reason. My recommendation is, don’t do it, it’s a bad idea. You’re an intelligent individual, and supposedly tolerant and rational – surely you can think of more positive ways of protesting. A famous Jedi once said “Don’t give in to hate, that path leads to the dark side.”

    The request need for added security to protect Catholics at the Republican Convention is laughable, I’d be far more concerned for PZ. One more bit of advice for PZ…keep your distance from the Republican Convention.

  536. #539 Donovan
    July 12, 2008

    Did he nod? Do we rise up now? I didn’t see, I was too busy stealing crackers. Did someone see him nod?

  537. #540 Capital Dan
    July 12, 2008

    WTF?!?

    You really did a number on these good and godly, death-threat-spewing folks, PZ. I wonder if Bill Donohue will sleep with the lights on and an altar boy in his lap to help him make it through this torturous night.

    I mean, there’s crazy, and then there’s Catholic Crayzeeee!

  538. #541 Neil
    July 12, 2008

    Ron in Houston- I’m impressed. You actually lasted out 500 comments before dropping the bomb and making it clear what a pathetic little twat you really are.
    At least it was more entertaining than reading yet another reformulation of the same stupid non-point. Thanks for playing!

    Amy- I will be praying to Joe Pesci for you. It truly pains my heart to see someone so enamored of useless bullshit. Maybe he will stop by slap some sense into you, and help you work out your sad death-cult dependency issues. Best wishes!

  539. #542 paradoctor
    July 12, 2008

    How to desecrate a wafer, while showing complete respect:

    First, obtain two communion wafers, one consecrated, the other one not.

    Switch them around a few times, so you can’t tell which one is which.

    Then invite Mr. Donohue, and perhaps a priest, over to determine which one is which.

    They won’t be able to. There’s no difference between the two, and this experiment proves it.

    And there you are; desecration complete. You could even give both wafers, untouched, to Mr. Donohue; for your spiritual point will be proven.

  540. #543 DingoDave
    July 12, 2008

    This is becoming absurd.

    The the next thing we know, the FDA will be forced to put warning labels on cracker boxes. They’ll probably look something like this;

    WARNING!
    This Product Has Been Known To Cause Temporary Insanity.
    Use With Caution.

  541. #544 Magpie
    July 12, 2008

    I for one stand ready to devour flesh at your command, PZ! Christians have got to be low in carbs. Did you ever see a fat circus lion?

    For the swwwarrrrm.

  542. #545 ArmillarySphere
    July 12, 2008

    They have it all wrong. The *real* nemesis of the Catholic Church is the Cookie Monster.

    Nom nom nom.

  543. #546 decrepitoldfool
    July 12, 2008

    A commenter named Thursday at Vive Christus Rex, who claims to have witnessed the incident says:

    Dr. Cook, take it for what it was worth, but I was an eyewitness to the incident (I sat in the same row as your son and saw this happen.) your son’s claims of violence are stretched much farther than they need be. You should be aware sir that people have gladly sacrificed their very lives to defend this sacrament. You mentioned your son was raised Catholic am I correct? without having to consult cannon law or bring the catechism into this he should have learned that if he is to receive communion he is intent MUST be to consume the host he is offered. He also as far as I could see was not taking any active participation in the mass he attended. I was going to go further in my comment but I believe my previous commentators have more than adequately stated the other reasons to think that this was premeditated. and I agree with the previous poster who stated that this is much different than desecrating a religious symbol, you are desecrating Christ himself. I say all this not for my own personal sake but because your son has committed a terrible sin and that if it is true that he is a Catholic this compounds the sin all the more so, assuming the information provided to us it is hard for him to claim ignorance any way he slices it. I ask for your son’s sake and for the restoration of peace to what is already a terrible situation I would say that your son should offer an apology demonstrating contrition…

    (and it goes on like that) I have tried responding on that thread a couple times, in a respectful way, but neither comment has made it through moderation. So I’ll post the answer here: It may well be the body of Christ, who came to save the world and all that, but not a shred of evidence exists to that effect. And precious little that Jesus’ actual body ever existed either. When you believe in something that cannot be demonstrated let alone proven, don’t be shocked if others fail to take it as seriously as you do. That time in history passed a long while back.

  544. #547 JC
    July 12, 2008

    PZ – There will be a Darth Vader constume waiting for you at Manuels. And yes (exasperated)….a light saber too.

    JC

  545. #548 Jim Claunch
    July 12, 2008

    Insane indeed! One definition of insane is “utterly senseless”. Many brights above say this “Cracker Caper” makes no “sense”. It is nonSENSE. Think about it. The entire Enlightenment was and is an intellectual battle over the issue of trusting our own friggin’ senses of sight,hearing,smell,taste,touch rather than trusting brute authority of priest and king. Science,reason and critical thinking all say we must bow instead to fact and sense. We say faith also must bow to fact or it is insane faith,senseless faith. To live in a world where authority, instead of fact and experience, tells us a cracker is not a cracker while at the same time our own senses tell us it indeed is a cracker is by definition to be without any SENSE. Might as well be blind,deaf,nose-less,tongue-less,and full-body numb and then run off to umpire a baseball game!(Some of those umps need a little Enlightenment too!) The old pre-enlightenment worldview is insane and senseless by definition. It is a Witchdoctorville in which even witches are not safe. There could be no more apt “symbol” of this basic conflict over what is in fact REAL, there could be no more painful nerve spot touching on the core conflict between the Dark Ages and the Enlightenment than the senseLESS doctrine of Transubtantiation of crackers into the body of God. Insanity says what you see is NOT what you get. Sanity says, “Screw that, big guy, what I see is INDEED what I get!” Two opposite worldviews, two conflicting paradigms( both insane to one another by the way) war here to define the one reality in which we must live together. Only one reality can be true unless there be two realities which is a logical impossiblity by the rational law of identity. Each one thing has one and only one identity or no one thing has any logical identity at all. This is another definition of insanity “seeing multiple realities”. I say ,and I stand with all others who say,”If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck, AND craps like a duck is NOT a friggin CHICKEN. To call it a chicken makes no SENSE and is insane (utterly sense-less)!!!!. Still doubt this? Go in any preschool and hold up a cracker and ask a three year kid , “What do I have in my hand Suzie?” That brilliant child will tell anyone with a big smile on her face that it is a…… cracker. It takes a great deal of indoctrination and peer pressure and threat of bodily harm (here and hereafter) to take that simple truth away from the child. How very sad that this indoctrination can be done and is done every day in our world. I for one am glad to see that some of you good teacher folk are a bit upset at the way such little students are being treated. It seems we have learned now that the Biblical admonition “Except you become as a little child” can be taken to mean more than one thing!! What is the SIMPLE truth? If the kid says a cracker is a cracker and a HUGE worldwide institution says it is NOT a cracker those who are enlightened, those who care about the simple truth, those who fight for what is true, and then teach others the truth, and go on to teach others to care for what is true- these “truth teachers” will go with the little kid into a brighter tomorrow. Those who are insane and senseless will go bumbling and blinded on a “trip” back into the Dark Ages where their life and their “reality” are full of of violence, prejudice,and nonsense. Some have chosen the truth as their authority and are enlightened. Others, more primitive ones, have chosen authority for their truth and are in the dark. Who would ever have ever guessed that it would take a “Cracker Caper” to bring all this “sense vs. nonsense” into the LIGHT of truth where even a simple cracker may be examined for what it really IS and also for what it is NOT.

  546. #549 God on sunday and by appointment
    July 12, 2008

    We can all pray this is the beginning of the end for the catholic faith.
    Maybe we will see it, if we dont die from an attack of Daa_Stupid

    PZ for president!!

  547. #550 Iain Walker
    July 12, 2008

    Amy (Comment #407):

    what is a lie? If you don’t believe in God, then is there really any truth?

    Yes. There are descriptive statements with determinate truth values whether a deity exists or not.

    Why would you question whether somebody was “prepared to lie” if it were not a sin or at least considered wrong?

    One can consider something to be wrong without reference to gods. Lying diminishes trust and thereby undermines social relations. It can be used to manipulate people and reduce their ability to make informed decisions. Do you really need a god to tell you that this is undesirable?

    You basicially [sic] just admitted to believing in the 10 Comandments [sic] right there.

    So … someone disapproves of lying, which happens to be forbidden by one out of the ten commandments. From this you deduce that said person believes in all ten of them. Does one really need to point out the fallacy here?

    You athiest [sic] anti-Christians are so funny as you all hang yourself on your own ignorant words. I am going to laugh all night at you.

    An unkind person might note the irony of this in the light of the rib-tickling ignorance displayed in your own posts.

    Oh, and from #402:

    I know the Truth. And you do too…inside. You know you do. You were born with it inside of you.

    As wrong as wrong can be. Truth is not a gut feeling. It’s something you work out with your brain.

  548. #551 John Phillips, FCD
    July 12, 2008

    To Ron from Houston and all the other concern trolls, fuck off, we are sick to death of kowtowing to the religidiots and where exactly has it got us. This has probably done more to show up the demented fuckwit that is Donowhore and the catholic league as well as his fellow crazies, who are little better than the muslims who protested the cartoons, better than anything else could. PZ, I salute you as one of your ilk and stay safe.

  549. #552 SEF
    July 12, 2008

    I think it would be awesome if you went to the convention and just stood outside the door for awhile, doing nothing.

    He should go in some sort of ultra-scary outfit then. Did he get one of those tentacle arms in the end? Or even the squiddly baby hat?

  550. #553 brnofeathers
    July 12, 2008

    I need about 10mb of space to upload a large image (6450×8100) of you-know-who made up of you-know-what for public consumption. Can anyone help?

    Thanks.

    Preview at (bandwidth limited) http://geocities.com/pzcrackerman/

  551. #555 Kelley Bell
    July 12, 2008

    O.K. I have never even read this blog before, but whatever movement you are leading PZ, I’m ready to sign up.

    The people freaking out over their magic crackers vote and create policy…that’s scary.

    It’s about time for rationalisim to rule.

  552. #556 Scorpious
    July 13, 2008

    If they want their convention in St.Paul, I say let’em have it. If I can help it, I’m gonna be out of town or as nowhere near any of that Republican crap as I can as I actually have to live here!

    If only the Democrats had picked first and picked us. Tis would be much, much, much, much better. Much better.

  553. #557 John C. Randolph
    July 13, 2008

    I, a devout Catholic, will pray for all of your souls.

    This may come as a shock to you Amy, but I know quite a few adherents of a different superstitious franchise who are convinced that because you are a papist, you are damned to hell yourself.

    Gosh, with so many superstitions to choose from, how can I possibly win Pascal’s wager?

    Oh, I know.. I’ll go with fact and logic. Have a nice day.

    -jcr

  554. #558 Kobra
    July 13, 2008

    #512:

    I know it’s not wrong or entirely inaccurate, but it sounds a little presumptuous. It isn’t really that presumptuous, but it sounds like it is.

  555. #559 tguy
    July 13, 2008

    SOYLENT WHITE IS PEOPLE!

  556. #560 Tom L
    July 13, 2008

    Do you suppose they are so sensitive about calling them “crackers” because of the cannibalism aspect? (think about it…)

  557. #561 Thursday
    July 13, 2008

    RE: #546 -

    That ain’t me.

  558. #563 DuckPhup
    July 13, 2008

    Re: “… I think Iowa would be my backyard, while Canada is my front yard.”

    Well… it could be they fear that you have insane screaming hordes of maple-suckin’ puck-slappers at your beck-and-call.

  559. #564 Mijan
    July 13, 2008

    I am so, so, SO very glad that I left the Catholic church YEARS ago. What’s sad is that I know some very nice, moderate, educated Catholics who are educated and firmly support the scientific theory of evolution, who understand that human life and suffering is far more important than a cracker, who vote to support gay rights, and so on. I don’t know why they still cling to the Catholic Church, but that’s their choice. I think more and more of the sane ones are leaving it.

    But really now, all of these religions espousing violence for the dumbest little things… does religion make a person insane? Really.

  560. #565 SEF
    July 14, 2008

    does religion make a person insane?

    Religion does give people some delusions they didn’t already have and insists on them believing them utterly – which sets them up for mental instability. It also reinforces some delusions and immoralities and bad attitudes which they did already have (seeing and hearing things are given false meaning, homophobia and misogyny are reinforced, being “childishly” unthinking and ignorant and authoritarian is praised). So religion would also tend to selectively attract insane people (having various mild to major forms of “insanity” which might not be classified as such by some definitions).

    However, some religions also act against some delusions which aren’t compatible with the religion – forcing the flock to conform to the approved subset and drop deviant behaviours. Many religions also have the huge benefit of forcing people to attend and thus “socialise” (to a greater or lesser extent), which can help restrain some people who would otherwise go mad alone.

    So anyone trying to quantify and qualify the insanities induced or supported by religion would have to be very careful over patient histories and not lump all sorts of different insanities in together when the religion distinguishes between them. Failure to do that would mask one effect with another of opposite direction.

    There was research into the mental illness of JWs.

  561. #566 Brian
    July 14, 2008

    I got a link to your site from somebody criticizing you and I’m very glad I did. After poking around your blog for the better part of a morning I’ve learned a lot, laughed a bit, and found many reasons to keep coming back. Thanks!

    At first, I thought the whole desecrating the Eucharist thing was a little foolish, but now I’m thinking you may be onto something. St. Boniface converted the pagans by chopping down the oak of Thor. When he wasn’t instantly struck by lightening the pagans gave up their old Gods. Perhaps others will be convinced of God’s absence after absolutely nothing happens to you.

    In response to #564 where Mijan wonders why so many moderate well educated people stay Catholic. I’d like to think that I fall into that category and I have a lot of similar friends. For me its because I like the community and cultural aspect. I’m about as sure as one can be that God doesn’t exist, but I still like going to church on Sunday. Does that make me an idiot? Probably. But the Catholic Church has been good to me. Most importantly, it was my Catholic education that opened my eyes to so many things and started me on my path of learning. For that I am grateful.

  562. #567 Gingerbaker
    July 14, 2008

    The Eucharist wafer must be respected!!

    Do you not realize what a stack of two or three wafers will impel a hungry Altar Boy to do?

  563. #568 A Yank In Oz
    July 14, 2008

    Add to this the Australian law that went into effect special for the “Popathon” being held in Sydney this week, making persons “annoying or inconveniencing” Catholics subject to a $5500 fine, and one becomes convinced that the entire world has gone way beyond mad. It has brought out the creativity in people designing T-shirts to be worn this week in hopes of being “annoying”. “Taking the piss” is the Aussie WAY! Slogans like “Pope Go Homo” and “The Pope Is Wrong – Put a Condom On” will be splashed across protesters’ T-shirts during next week’s World Youth Day (WYD). Ah to be in Sydney for the “annoying of the Pope…….”

  564. #569 Olowkow
    July 14, 2008

    For me, the bottom line issue is:
    where was all the outrage from Catholics when the depth of appaling molestation of young boys was revealed?

  565. #570 abb3w
    July 14, 2008

    But can PZ “rend fortifications as the rushing passage of time consumes cheap cloth”?

  566. #571 gerry salvatore
    July 15, 2008

    Dear Brave Dr. Myers,

    Please let me know when you plan to desecrate the Koran, being that it also is “just a book”, and you are now on this crusade to show the religious that what they revere has no meaning or sacredness. Don’t let us down like Lewis Black in his new anti-regligion book that hardly mentioned Islam, or like Bill Maher and the late George Carlin does/did in their usual “kid gloves” treatment of the religion of Peace. I’d hate to think that there is a pattern amongst us brave athiets of only attacking the religions that don’t cut off heads or fly planes into buildings.
    and P.S. –I agree that you don’t have to take these recent death threats seriously–the unfortunate side effect of your future Koran desecration is that you will have to take those death threats VERY seriously.

  567. #572 MAJeff, OM
    July 15, 2008

    Posted by: gerry salvatore | July 15, 2008 1:14 PM

    Another fuckwit blowhard who’s never been to the site and wetting his pants over the islamic hordes.

  568. #573 DrmChsr0
    July 15, 2008

    Hoo boy.

    Scientists, atheists, agnostics and moderate Christians are branded as terrorists and insurgents.

    Great day to be alive, eh?

  569. #574 Sondra
    July 15, 2008

    This is sort of related; it involves a religion;

    Jul 13, 11:09 PM EDT

    Mormon missionary calendar-maker excommunicated
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    SALT LAKE CITY (AP) — The creator of a calendar that featured shirtless Mormon missionaries was excommunicated Sunday after a disciplinary meeting with local church leaders in Las Vegas.

    Chad Hardy said he bears no ill will toward the council of elders from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

    “I felt like I spoke my truth,” the 31-year-old entertainment entrepreneur said. “Bottom-line, they still felt the calendar is inappropriate and not the image that the church wants to have.”

    “Men on a Mission,” which has sold nearly 10,000 copies at $14.99 each, included pictures of 12 returned missionaries wearing black slacks, but not their trademark white shirts, in modest poses. The men also were photographed in traditional missionary garb and share their religious beliefs in biographical sketches.

    Some of the 12 models have also been called to disciplinary meetings, but none were punished.

    “I have no ill feelings toward any of those people,” Hardy said of the church council. “They did what they believed was right and I really do feel it was the best decision for both of us.”

    Frank E. Davie, the senior leader over a group of Mormon congregations in the Las Vegas area, confirmed the 12-member council’s decision in a telephone call to The Associated Press. He declined further comment.

    Hardy said the purpose of the 2008 calendar was not to tear down the church or its 13 million members.

    “The project is about stepping outside the stereotypes and stepping outside of the image,” Hardy said. “Not everybody fits the image and I let them know we’re not trying to portray an image for the entire church.”

    An excommunicated person is removed from official church rolls, but are still welcome at church services. Excommunicated members are prohibited from receiving the sacrament and can’t perform church callings such as teaching or preaching during meetings. They also cannot enter church temples.

    On the Net:

    http://www.lds.net

    http://www.mormonsexposed.com

  570. #575 Dreadneck
    July 28, 2008

    “As True Christians?, we are called upon to marginalize other faiths, or people with no faith, and to scream persecution when they rudely return the favor.” — Pastor Deacon Fred, Landover Baptist Church

    Truer words were never spoken.

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