Pharyngula

Me and my cyberpistol

Thomas Foley of Virginia is nuts. This is the delegate to the Republican National Convention who has called for increased security. Why? Because he has an irrational fear of us.

On Friday the Catholic League reported that Thomas E. Foley, a Virginia delegate to the Republican National Convention (RNC) in Minneapolis has asked that increased security be considered for the event in light of Myers’ threat to acquire and desecrate the Eucharist.

“I just felt security at the Republican National Convention ought to look at him and his followers,” Foley told CNA in a phone interview on Wednesday morning. He reported that he had not received an update about his request.

Voicing his concerns about Myers, Foley said: “What I think he has done, he’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table. He may have set something in motion that no one can stop. It was irresponsible, a hell of a thing to do.”

Foley explained that he thought Myers should not be able to incite such acts with “impunity,” saying that he was especially disturbed by the comments posted on Myers’ blog. He said it was “eye-opening” to read the people who supported Myers’ action. Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never “personally encountered such bigotry.”

He also objected to Myers’ recent description of Catholic League President Bill Donohue as “braying,” which Foley, a self-described Irish Catholic, claimed was “a great insult for the Irish.”

Foley said he believes Myers was telling his readers to acquire a consecrated Host at Mass, which Foley thought would result in disruptions.

“What’s he telling them to do? Consecrated Hosts are not just lying around,” he said to CNA, noting that the only other possible way to secure a Host would be to accost a priest, nun, or layman taking the Sacrament to the sick. Even E-bay, Foley emphasized, has prevented the sale of consecrated Hosts.

Wait, what? I’m armed with a cyberpistol? Is that what we atheist brigands use to rob trucks trundling down the tubes of the internet?

I had no idea that “braying” was especially insulting to the Irish. I’m sure it’s a word that is used with great frequency in reference to Bill Donohue, though. No ethnic slur was intended, since I was unaware of any association (and still am) — it’s really just intended to highlight Donohue’s personal attributes as an ass.

I’m baffled by the last paragraph, though. If the crackers aren’t just lying around, how come people are having such an easy time getting them? The people who’ve sent them to me haven’t mentioned having to disrupt anything. And if their availability is so limited, why is he calling for increased security at the RNC? Do Republicans get Christ Crackers on registration, or something?

This is precisely the kind of deranged hysteria we have to protest against, I’m afraid.

Comments

  1. #1 James F
    July 16, 2008

    Wait, what? I’m armed with a cyberpistol?

    You know, on the higher levels you can get an assault rifle, shotgun, grenade launcher, flamethrower, and BFG!

  2. #2 t-1000
    July 16, 2008

    Reminds me of this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DNO6G4ApJQY

    Guess you’re part of the internet hate machine now PZ.

  3. #3 HombreMoleculos
    July 16, 2008

    Cyberpistol? Happiness is a warm gun.

  4. #4 kubenzi
    July 16, 2008

    OK i might be out of the loop so correct me if i am wrong,but isnt that particular convention going to have massive protests anyway?

  5. #5 soteos
    July 16, 2008

    “Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never personally encountered such bigotry.”

    Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, a man who has lived in a cave for the past 63 years with his eyes closed and his fingers in his ears.

  6. #6 Sven DiMilo
    July 16, 2008

    I already got my cyberpistol strapped to my cyberarm, bought a cyberbus cyberticket to Minneapolis, and got a Mohawk cyberhaircut. Watch out, cyberCatholic cyberRepublicans!

  7. #7 Coragyps
    July 16, 2008

    You’ve got followers?? Wowzers, Dr Myers!! Are all of ‘em squids?

    These Cathopublican folks are wacko…..

  8. #8 Dustin
    July 16, 2008

    He may have set something in motion that no one can stop.

    It’s true! Paul is the voice from the outer world! He is the Mahdi! Ya hya chouhada!

  9. #9 chrisD
    July 16, 2008

    Lying for Jesus, yet again. They know their claims are disingenuously aggrandizing this situation but that’s the point! They can get away with it due to the flock swallowing all that is brayed.

  10. #10 Alex
    July 16, 2008

    So what is it about being insulted anyway? I mean they talk about it like it’s a deranged brutal crime. So your sensitivities have been insulted, get over it. The bigotry thing also cracks me up. An atheist thinks the religious world-view is whacko, therefore they’re bigots. A religionists world-view has “infidels” burn in hell forever and they’re not bigots?

  11. #11 Doug
    July 16, 2008

    A cyberpistol? That is about as likely to kill someone as cybersex is to getting me laid.

  12. #12 Kristine
    July 16, 2008

    I, too, wonder what the hell all this has to do with the RNC.

    But I hope they make a big stink about it. Fools.

  13. #13 George
    July 16, 2008

    PZ Myers: “This is precisely the kind of deranged hysteria we have to protest against, I’m afraid.”

    This is known as projection.

  14. #14 Hugh
    July 16, 2008

    So you’ve got some consecrated wafers, PZ. Did they come in bodybags?

  15. #15 Glen Davidson
    July 16, 2008

    My God, a cyberpistol. Spewing optically-encoded bits at hapless believers in magic.

    Watch out Foley, you might be targeted with information. Which apparently is a good deal stronger than magic.

    Fear the man with the information, Foley. Oh, that’s right, you already do.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

  16. #16 Mark F.
    July 16, 2008

    Can you confirm that the communion wafers sent to you so far have been consecrated? My understanding is that the unconsecrated ones are pretty easy to get. You can order them over the web.

  17. #17 Tyler DiPietro
    July 16, 2008

    It would have been more impressive if he’d said something like “cybernuke”. “Cyberpistol” is just lame, like the default gun on Doom lame.

  18. #18 wazza
    July 16, 2008

    I think they have Jesits with the wine and cheese course.

    Anyway, I’d like to point out what an excellent way this was to reveal how fucking insane everyone over there is.

    Good luck at the convention, PZ’s Tentacular Army!

  19. #19 Amplexus
    July 16, 2008

    Why the hell is a catholic republican? evangelicals and catlicks used to hate each other! When did this union form?

    YOu know the KKK from blazing saddles!

  20. #20 miui
    July 16, 2008

    Ebay does not sell them?? What about Jesus on a Cheese Sandwich?
    What about these????:
    Ebay Wafers #1
    Ebay Wafers #2
    Ebay Wafers #3

    Holy Cyberauctions Batman!

  21. #21 Sioux Laris
    July 16, 2008

    He’s an active “Republican” and therefore stupid, greedy, and consciouly dishonest. Metaphorically, fuck him until he drops dead of his own accord.

  22. #22 Matthias
    July 16, 2008

    With all these big words flying back and forth, I wonder: Is it time to declare War on Rhetorics?

  23. #23 Sili
    July 16, 2008
  24. #24 Der Bruno Stroszek
    July 16, 2008

    Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never “personally encountered such bigotry.”

    He’s been in the Republican party for how long? Did he just stick his fingers in his ears every time Jesse Helms spoke?

  25. #25 Hessenroots
    July 16, 2008

    Does anyone know of any Atheist groups organized or planning to protest (the legal sort, I promise to leave my cyberpistol at home) at the RNC? I’ve heard nothing yet from the Twin Cities or Minnesota atheists as yet.

    I realize organizing atheists can be a bit like herding cats but there has gotta be someone with the gears already in motion. I’d rather spend time with like minded godless heathens then troll around with Greenpeace or those screechy PETA kids.

  26. #26 Maria
    July 16, 2008

    An atheist with a cracker is a powerful force.

  27. #27 Alejandro
    July 16, 2008

    This is getting way too craaaaazy. How come every almost freaking US American politician is crazy?

  28. #28 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    I read that and my first thought was “As if PZ would *want* to go”.

    But then I realized that Foley was probably talking about protesters and not actual attendees and it made a little more sense.

    … But then, after all the press about the Expelled screening, maybe he’s expecting you to be lurking in the shadows, waiting to pop out during a big speech raving about the cracker. Or perhaps (gasp) DESECRATING a cracker in the middle of the convention! Oh noes!

    :)

  29. #29 Kampar
    July 16, 2008

    Can you confirm that the communion wafers sent to you so far have been consecrated?

    Please don’t start this one up again – I think there must have been at least 200 posts the last few days on the subject of how to tell (or not) a consecrated from a virgin cracker (is virgin the right term here?)

  30. #30 Brian Coughlan
    July 16, 2008

    I have no idea why the term “braying” is especially insulting to the Irish, and I am, in fact, Irish.

    Donohue however, is not Irish. To be Irish you need to have been born in Ireland. It’s sort of the rules. Donohue is overwhelmingly American, and in the worst possible way.

  31. #31 Alejandro
    July 16, 2008

    And it is still a freaking cracker.

  32. #32 Bill
    July 16, 2008

    I think Mr. Foley confused the word “bray” with “brogue”. The Irish of the world should be deeply offended by his comment.

  33. #33 Ted H.
    July 16, 2008

    “I just felt security at the Republican National Convention ought to look at him and his followers.”

    Sounds like we just made the terrorist watch list. Terrorist Fist Jab(TM)!

  34. #34 Alan
    July 16, 2008

    Correct me if I’m wrong, but I thought most American Catholics polled Democrat? Why is he worried about the RNC, other than that it’s a three hour drive from Morris?

  35. #35 Longtime Lurker
    July 16, 2008

    “I had no idea that “braying” was especially insulting to the Irish.”

    The term “donkey” is used, mainly by Irish-Americans, as a derogatory term for recent immigrants from Ireland. An acquaintance of mine with a very Irish last name, once referred to a local tavern as a “donkey bar”. Of course, it had better beer and music than the “old man bar” he frequents. “Mick” is the term outsiders use to disparage Irish and Irish-Americans.

    Foley’s fear-mongering gets at the heart of this whole rigmarole… It’s not an Atheist vs. Catholic controversy, but a Liberal vs. Conservative controversy. Donohue has never criticized Jack Chick, or the Evangelicals proselytizing to Catholic service academy cadets, his outrage at Hagee was tepid and short-lived. Donohue is more Republican than Catholic, and he’s fomenting a culture war in an attempt to dissuade Catholics from voting overwhelmingly Democratic this November.

  36. #36 cory
    July 16, 2008

    And being a Repube, he is very concerned about the SIZE of your cyberpistol, whether you hold it to the left or right, whether it’s bigger than HIS cyberpistol, and of course where you holster it.

  37. #37 Fr. J
    July 16, 2008

    I know I said I wouldn’t comment futher, but…PZ you are just as nuts as he is. You are nuts for claiming that you are afraid of Catholic faux death threats or some kind of inquisition. Now that’s “deranged hysteria” and “irrational fear.” When you see the similar things from the other side you think they’re nuts. Pot calls kettle black. Frankly I think the GOP does have cause for concern.

    What is really nuts is that you, and your allies, believe it’s okay to disrupt worship services to protest. This whole mess is the result of your ego, immaturity, and lack of professionalism. Nothing good has come of this and nothing will. It will only increase the hatred that bigots like you thrive on. Those who have stolen consecrated hosts have committed a federal offense, as I pointed out before. Also they may have violated the laws of their State. I hope they are prosecuted, but I doubt they will fess up to the authorities.

    I suspect your university is quite displeased. Others will be later when your actions are used by some to justify harassing homosexuals, feminists, or other protected groups. Even atheist groups may find themselves on the receiving end. You are setting the precedent. Someone mentioned the KKK. PZ you are the atheist version of the KKK. I don’t see any difference between their ignorant bigotry and yours. Cheers, Fr. J

  38. #38 Kampar
    July 16, 2008

    To be Irish you need to have been born in Ireland.

    Brian … I can categorically state that that is not how it works in the U.S. and it seems odd to those of us from Europe.

    Many U.S. born-and-bred citizens take pride (and rightly so, I guess) in telling you that they are Irish, or English, or German, Italian, Portuguese etc. and they really, honestly mean it. They are of course talking about their ancestry – so if Donahue has any recent Irish ancestry (likely with that surname) I have no doubt he (or others for him) would state that he is Irish. It just seems to work that way!

  39. #39 Hessenroots
    July 16, 2008

    “Sounds like we just made the terrorist watch list. Terrorist Fist Jab(TM)!”

    So I should take the “PZ is my co-pilot” and “My boss is an atheist biologist” stickers off my car before heading near any government buildings? :P

  40. #40 Carlie
    July 16, 2008

    Can you confirm that the communion wafers sent to you so far have been consecrated?

    Well, duh, it tastes like Jesus!

    And we’re not “followers”, we’re “minions”. Jeez, can’t the press get anything straight?

  41. #41 Zeno
    July 16, 2008

    I thought you referred to Donohue as “braying” because he is an ass. So why did Thomas E. Foley consider it a special ethnic slur aimed at the Irish? In all charity, we should consider the possibility that Foley was too drunk to think clearly.

  42. #42 BMcP
    July 16, 2008

    “What I think he has done, he’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table.

    Sounds like someone thinks with far too much phallic imagery to me.

    BMcP, who is Irish.

  43. #43 Andrés Diplotti
    July 16, 2008

    Well, he is a Republican. You just know his definition of “bigotry” will be different from that of normal people.

  44. #44 Traffic Demon
    July 16, 2008

    Ah, Thomas Foley and Bill Donohue, a pair of undescended testicles on the groin of civilization.

    –Traf E. Traf
    Automotive Mastermind

  45. #45 me
    July 16, 2008

    Be aware you may be getting not just plain old unconsecrated crackers, but plain old unconsecrated _Episcopalian_ crackers (and they don’t ever transubstantiate, you know).

    When I was an altar boy, the parish priest always ordered the Episcopalian church suppliers’ crackers because they were fresher and cheaper, we being in a Southern “missionary” church area.

    No complaints about being brought up Catholic there, it was the only integrated school system in the state at the time; and to their credit, the Catholics went out and marched with robes and crucifix on the sidewalk each year as the annual city’s KKK parade marched down the main street past the church.

    It was another country.

    Just sayin’ there’s no difficulty at all getting those little round flatbreads, anybody can buy them who sends the payment to the church supplies place. It’s what’s done to them later that makes whatever difference you believe in.

    You may just have crackers.

    Come to think of it, it still is.

  46. #46 Joe Bob
    July 16, 2008

    PZ, you should do something really horrible to a bunch of crackers, some “consecrated”, some not, (e.g., shoot ‘em up with your cyberpistol…) and then demand that someone prove which are which.

  47. #47 Stuart Weinstein
    July 16, 2008

    Got a cyber-pistol in your computer? Or is it just glad to see me?

  48. #48 miui
    July 16, 2008

    Correction here. Interesting nonetheless. Ebay stopped at some point selling consecrated wafers due to catholics complaining about it. However, Ebay didn’t believe there was anything wrong or offensive with it.
    http://www.michnews.com/cgi-bin/artman/exec/view.cgi/202/8083

    However, there are 997 items for sale which come around with the search for “blessed” (240 of which most are catholic in nature). While shopping around I found that there are medals with representations of the eucharist and even antique religious books. Some really interesting objects of much higher value than a blessed eucharyst imo.

  49. #49 Pandora
    July 16, 2008

    To be honest when I heard the word cyberpistol, my mind superimposed PZ’s head on Rambo’s and then it cut to a little montage of him shooting in the wild jungles of the internet.

    Did this happen to anyone else?

  50. #50 Will Von Wizzlepig
    July 16, 2008

    CYBERPISTOL!

    No more of merely clicking people in the eye, go for the gusto with the manly CYBERPISTOL!

    Be the envy of every 11-year-old on your block, with the newest in cock-wagging inventions! CYBERPISTOL!

    No home is safe with CYBERPISTOL!

    No home is safe without CYBERPISTOL!

    Your wife will love you again with CYBERPISTOL!

    20% less bad things when you use CYBERPISTOL!

    [zzz]

    The dim bulbs have found solace in the internet, because it validates their existence: there are other people just as dumb as them.

    “When did ignorance become a point of view?” may have to become my new national anthem.

    “cock punch” just popped into my head, and I think it’s because that’s what this Thomas Foley needs- delivered by a bratty kid, maybe one of his own.

  51. #51 Michael Kremer
    July 16, 2008

    “If the crackers aren’t just lying around, how come people are having such an easy time getting them? The people who’ve sent them to me haven’t mentioned having to disrupt anything.”

    As I’m sure PZ knows, to get a consecrated host, all you have to do is go to any Catholic Church during Mass, wait until communion, then walk up in the procession, and when the priest or eucharistic minister holds up the host and says “The Body of Christ” say “Amen” (that is — say “yes, that’s what it is”). Then the priest or minister puts it in your hand. In a large enough Church, with a lot of people receiving communion, if you don’t immediately put the wafer in your mouth you probably won’t be noticed and no disruption will take place. Of course in all this there is the understanding that you are a Catholic, have come to the Church with the intention of consuming the Host, and so on, and by processing in the line and saying “Amen” you are agreeing to this, implicitly. But yes, it’s easy to get consecrated hosts this way if you’re willing to be, shall we say, somewhat duplicitous, and a bad guest to boot. But never mind those niceties — it’s all fun between friends, isn’t it?

    On the other hand, it is also possible to steal them outright:
    http://www.caller.com/news/2008/jul/15/eucharist-taken-cathedral-tabernacle/

    If you should receive any hosts from Corpus Christi, TX or environs (yes, that’s right, Corpus Christi) you might be receiving stolen goods.

  52. #52 Dlux
    July 16, 2008

    Oh, for god’s sake, you can get those silly wafers anywhere. Do they get delivered by armored trucks now?

    http://www.kaufers.com/productcart/pc/viewCategories.asp?idCategory=108

  53. #53 Sven DiMilo
    July 16, 2008

    PZ you are the atheist version of the KKK. I don’t see any difference between their ignorant bigotry and yours. Cheers,

    Take it, take the damn cake. That’s just…

    I summon Truth Machine to deal with this stoopid…I can’t even make fun of it it’s so burningly stoopid.

  54. #54 craig
    July 16, 2008

    Every time someone tried to claim that criticizing ideas is bigotry, we have to fight back and continually explain that it can never be bigotry to criticize ideas.

    To claim that it is cheapens the experience of victims of true bigotry, and frankly I don’t think these people are doing this by accident. I think it’s a calculated move.

  55. #55 Tom Piatak
    July 16, 2008

    In order to receive a host, one must present oneself for Holy Communion. The only people who are supposed to do that are Catholics in a state of grace, i.e., not conscious of grave sin, and they are supposed to immediately consume the host, not keep it. These rules are well known. Those taking the host with the intention of desecrating it are engaged in fraud and theft.

  56. #56 Christopher
    July 16, 2008

    You don’t have to “accost” anybody to get one of the crackers. Just go to mass and hold out your hand…

  57. #57 Lago
    July 16, 2008

    “Wait, what? I’m armed with a cyberpistol? Is that what we atheist brigands use to rob trucks trundling down the tubes of the internet?”

    Hahhahahahahha,,

    Oh, Yeah, my name is Paddy Sean and I have no idea how what you said was supposed to be insulting to the irish.

  58. #58 Midnight Rambler
    July 16, 2008

    This is getting way too craaaaazy. How come every almost freaking US American politician is crazy?

    Because at this point, it seems to be a requirement for being elected as a Republican. You know they’re in trouble when the only ones who sound semi-connected to reality are Newt Gingrich and Pat Buchanan.

  59. #59 Norman Doering
    July 16, 2008

    PZ, since you can’t really be sure if your crackers are consecrated or if they are stolen you should mix in some known unconsecrated crackers and then ask Bill Donohue to identify the consecrated crackers that may have been involved in any crimes. Show him the pictures here on your blog. If he can identify the consecrated crackers he can take them and return them to the churches they came from, but if he insists any of the known unconsecrated control crackers are consecrated and/or stolen he looses his cracker taking opportunity.

    Also, when you do decide to abuse a consecrated cracker, it might be best to get the “minister of Life” church guy (see first video on my blog post here) to consecrate a cracker you bought so no crime is involved.

    Be safe. You may have nothing to fear from crackers, but you might have a lot to fear from loonies with lawyers.

  60. #60 Heathen Matt
    July 16, 2008

    Project much, Mr. Foley?

    A threat to do unspeakable things to a cracker: oh, noes, we gotta have increased security at the Godbots, Oilmen & Plutocrats convention.

    Death threats against PZ Myers: yawn.

    Sure got yer priorities straight there, fucknuts.

  61. #61 jj
    July 16, 2008

    Braying:
    merican Heritage Dictionary
    bray 1 Audio Help (br?) Pronunciation Key
    v. brayed, bray·ing, brays
    v. intr.
    1. To utter the loud, harsh cry of a donkey.
    2. To sound loudly and harshly: The foghorn brayed all night.
    v. tr.
    To emit (an utterance or a sound) loudly and harshly.
    n.
    1. The loud, harsh cry of a donkey.
    2. A sound resembling that of a donkey: “an endless bray of pointless jocosity” (Louis Auchincloss).

  62. #62 Kobra
    July 16, 2008

    Is a cyberpistol a way to compensate for a small e-penis?

    Sorry, I had to say it.

  63. #63 Stark
    July 16, 2008

    @ Fr.J #37 –

    I hate to feed the trolls… but I do have a question for you.

    How, exactly, does one tell the difference between “Catholic faux death threats” and real Catholic (or non Catholic) death threats? Are you saying that any death threat made by a Catholic is fake? REALLY? ‘Cause I’m pretty sure I can find more than a few instances of Catholics who followed through on death threats should I care to look.

    A death threat is a death threat. Period. Unless these threats said at the end of them “Hey, just kidding! Im’ really just a big ass!” they are LEGITIMATE threats. A threat doesn’t have to be acted upon for it to be a threat – in fact once it is acted upon it’s called murder or attempted murder. Get it?

  64. #64 J Myers
    July 16, 2008

    He also objected to Myers’ recent description of Catholic League President Bill Donohue as “braying,” which Foley, a self-described Irish Catholic, claimed was “a great insult for the Irish.”

    A great insult for the Irish? Well, I’m glad you approve, Mr. Foley.

  65. #65 Feshy
    July 16, 2008

    What’s he telling them to do? Consecrated Hosts are not just lying around

    Yea, I mean… it’s not like they’re just handing them out to anyone who walks up or anything, right? Right?

    Clearly, we’ll have no choice but to use our cyber pistols to demand them. What would that even entail? E-mailing the word “bang” to someone you don’t like?

    He also objected to Myers’ recent description of Catholic League President Bill Donohue as “braying,” which Foley, a self-described Irish Catholic, claimed was “a great insult for the Irish.”

    It was irresponsible

    I object to his description of Myers as “irresponsible” because, as a self-described white male, I find it’s a great insult to Caucasians.

    Wait… why can everyone else get away with that?

  66. #66 Zeno
    July 16, 2008

    Tom Piatak: In order to receive a host, one must present oneself for Holy Communion. The only people who are supposed to do that are Catholics in a state of grace, i.e., not conscious of grave sin, and they are supposed to immediately consume the host, not keep it. These rules are well known. Those taking the host with the intention of desecrating it are engaged in fraud and theft.

    “Fraud and theft”? My goodness! Let’s check the law books. Oops! Not there. In the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Well, the conditions for receiving communion are there, but nothing about fraud and theft. You know, it looks like it’s a sin and not a crime. No need to call 9-1-1 after all.

  67. #67 Kobra
    July 16, 2008

    Just for the sake of injecting irony into the discussion:

    http://www.kobrascorner.com/didyoumean-cyberpistol.png

    (I don’t feel like implementing the workaround right now.)

  68. #68 Phillip Allen
    July 16, 2008

    @5

    a man who has lived in a cave for the past 63 years with his eyes closed and his fingers in his ears.

    Don’t leave out the essential running around in circles and shouting “la la la la la” at the top of this voice. If he doesn’t do these vital things there’s a tiny chance that something like outside information may leak in.

  69. #69 Andrew
    July 16, 2008

    Baffling.

  70. #70 Greg
    July 16, 2008

    One would think that, as a Republican, Mr. Foley would be very supportive of a cybergun. After all, isn’t the NRA a major contributer to the Republican Party?

    The whole thing reminds me of an old joke – If we get electricity from electrons, do we get morality from morons?

  71. #71 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 16, 2008

    I had no idea that “braying” was especially insulting to the Irish. I’m sure it’s a word that is used with great frequency in reference to Bill Donohue, though. No ethnic slur was intended, since I was unaware of any association (and still am) — it’s really just intended to highlight Donohue’s personal attributes as an ass.

    No, no, you misunderstand. Insulting the Catholic faith is especially insulting to the Irish, because that faith is part of the Irish ethnic identity (as opposed to the heretic Englishmen), as it is of the Polish (as opposed to the heretic Germans and Russians) and the Croat ethnic identities (as opposed to the heretic Serbians and Bosnian Muslims), as Orthodoxy is part of the Russian, Greek and Serbian ethnic identities (as opposed to heretic Croats and Poles, heathen Bosnian Muslims, Turks, Tatars, and so on), and as Islam is part of the Bosnian Muslim ethnic identity (created by the communist dictator Tito in the 1950s or thereabouts) (as opposed to Croats and Serbs).

    Religion tends to lead to the most violence where it is regarded as one, or even the only, distinguishing quality of ethnic identity. In the absence of violence, you get ridiculous statements like the one you are replying to here.

    What is really nuts is that you, and your allies, believe it’s okay to disrupt worship services to protest.

    Nobody did that, especially not Webster Cook, who is himself a devout Catholic and wanted to show the host to a friend who, in his words, “was curious about the Catholic faith”.

    How many thousands of comments did you simply skip in the last few days?

    PZ you are the atheist version of the KKK. I don’t see any difference between their ignorant bigotry and yours.

    Wake me up, moron, when PZ starts killing people.

  72. #72 Numad
    July 16, 2008

    “In order to receive a host, one must present oneself for Holy Communion. The only people who are supposed to do that are Catholics in a state of grace, i.e., not conscious of grave sin, and they are supposed to immediately consume the host, not keep it. These rules are well known. Those taking the host with the intention of desecrating it are engaged in fraud and theft.”

    Those that consume the host also aren’t suppose to eat or drink for one hour afterwards. Also, words don’t mean whatever you want them to mean.

  73. #73 bio teacher
    July 16, 2008

    Fr. J

    PLEASE tell my it is a FEDERAL offense to take a consecrated cracker? Pleasepleaseplease!!!!! That may be the funniest thing I’ve ever heard!!!

    Also, as an aside, if I were to be Catholic and want to partake of these awful crackers but can’t since I have Celiac disease, how does the church let me stay in the club? Do they make gluten free jeebus crackers? mmmmmmmmm….federally offensive gluten free christ crackers……

  74. #74 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    I phoned his office a few days ago when I first read this and talked to Foley on the phone.

    He is just as much a fool as you would expect telling me that he had reason to fear disruption from atheists. When I told him about posted threats to PZ and asked where were the threats from atheists, he hung up.

  75. #75 jj
    July 16, 2008

    @37
    Hey, when did PZ disrupt any service? It never happen. It makes no sense that just because someone disagrees, and decided to make his option public, makes them a bigot. We are all tolerant of you wackos out there. Just because you tolerate something doesn’t mean you have to like or agree with it. You can be tolerant of a crying baby on a plane but it can still piss you off (South Park line rip off).

  76. #76 bio teacher
    July 16, 2008

    It should say “Fr J PLEASE tell me why it is….”

  77. #77 James Goetz
    July 16, 2008

    PZ, you’re no better that Donahue if you carry out your desecration challenge.

  78. #78 Calladus
    July 16, 2008

    re: Tom Piatak

    These rules are well known. Those taking the host with the intention of desecrating it are engaged in fraud and theft.

    Are these legal rules? Is it against the law to accept the host in Mass? Or is that just a Church rule that is enforceable by an eternity in Hell?

    I’d hate to go to jail, you see.

  79. #79 raven
    July 16, 2008

    Cyberpistol??? If you are going to possess imaginary weapons why not go in big? Cybernukes would be a good start.

    Real cybers carry cyber rayguns anyway. Which will work well until you meet a Jedi Knight with a cyber lightsaber.

    Not too familar with Foley. Is he always this stupid?

  80. #80 Metro
    July 16, 2008

    I want to state that I disagree with what PZ is doing with respect to the whole cracker business.

    Requesting that consecrated hosts be taken out of churches (the only way to get them) by people who normally wouldn’t wipe manure of their shoes on a temple doormat, in order to discomfit Catholics, most of whom aren’t doctrinaire and find the whole business embarrasing, and show support for a student who seems to have misappropriated a host out of sheer daftness, looks to me like the sort of bloviating we accuse believers of daily.

    Most times I’m totally with PZ. Not this time.

    However, I need to point out to Mr. Foley that if they tighten security too much, the prostitutes may not make it in. Or perhaps the Republicans can just issue them badges this time?

    I once read somewhere that hookers can’t be bothered with the DNC because “they just screw each other,” whereas Republicans wanted really dirty stuff, all on the down-really-low.

  81. #81 Feynmaniac
    July 16, 2008

    A “cyberpistol” on the “tubes” of “the internets”. Why do Republicans have absolutely no idea how the internet works?
    Actually I recall another Republican named Foley who managed to his the internet quite effectively.

    P.S. Cyberpistol would be a kick ass name for a band

  82. #82 Platypus
    July 16, 2008

    Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never “personally encountered such bigotry.”

    His lack of personal experience with bigotry would be because Mr. Foley is rich, white, male, and a christian. Well, his lack of experience of being on the receiving end, at any rate.

    For him to be quailing in terror at the mere possibility of someone thinking him to be a kook is quite simply pathetic.

  83. #83 Kobra
    July 16, 2008

    PZ you are the atheist version of the KKK. I don’t see any difference between their ignorant bigotry and yours.

    Wake me up, moron, when PZ starts killing people.

    Don’t hold your breath on that.

  84. #84 vespera
    July 16, 2008

    Someone mentioned the KKK. PZ you are the atheist version of the KKK. I don’t see any difference between their ignorant bigotry and yours. Cheers, Fr. J

    Fr. J (#37), you are officially completely off your rocker.

    The KKK? Really? You don’t see “ANY difference” between PZ and the Ku Klux Klan? Threatening a processed food product (and a nasty one at that, as I can attest from an earlier and unfortunate period in my life) is the functional equivalent of arson, rape and murder?

    Only someone without even a pathetic excuse for a moral compass could contemplate comparing the two. Now I just wonder if you are a Catholic priest because you are deranged or deranged because you are a priest.

    At this beginning of this whole thing, I thought PZ was, frankly, a jackass for making the threat, and said so. But the longer this goes on the more I see his point. The foul-minded Defenders of the Faith who have come crawling out of the woodwork are a disgrace to all people who attempt to be peaceful and reasonable, and their behavior leaves me with no ammunition left to argue that we should respect their inanities.

    Fuck them, and fuck you, Fr. J.

  85. #85 Zarquon
    July 16, 2008

    Oh no, PZ is a Cyberman. Beware of curly haired men with long multicoloured scarves.

  86. #86 Brian Fabian
    July 16, 2008

    I really don’t care about any kind of apparent problem between you and this other person Mr. Foley, my only concern is the fact that you have something that is simply put the center and heart of the catholic church, and respectively hope you return them un-harmed to the closest Roman Catholic Church, these crackers as you put them mean so very much to allot of people and I would hate to see this kind of treatment be broadcasted onto the internet to prove some theory or point…Thank You

  87. #87 Kel
    July 16, 2008

    PZ Myers, the level 20 Cyberpunk. Maxed out intelligence, charisma and wisdom. Weapon: Cyberpistol

    lol, this is getting quite funny. It just shows how much the church and it’s followers want to revert to the 14th century when it could mandate conformity through fear. I guess any institution that has lost it’s power and relevance occasionally wants to flex it’s muscle to see whether it still can.

  88. #88 Rey Fox
    July 16, 2008

    “I thought you referred to Donohue as “braying” because he is an ass.”

    Probably, but have you ever heard him speak? Ah, never mind, I guess the example I’m going on is that link someone made to his appearance on Hardball with Christopher Hitchens. I can’t fucking stand cable news because everyone seems to think they have to yell at me. I’m sitting right here, feet away from the TV with its amplified sound system. Hitch came off well in that interview simply because he was the only person in the room who was speaking in a normal voice.

  89. #89 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    I keep wondering if Donowhore and Foley are covertly being paid by evangelical protestants to do their level best to make Catholicism look ridiculous.

    If so, uh, nice job?

  90. #90 Friendo
    July 16, 2008

    Re: braying

    The term “donkey” was historically used by the English to disparage the Irish I believe, as the Irish were/are perceived to have a streak of stubbornness, or so I was led to believe growing up (while I’m Canadian by birth, I have Irish ancestry and citizenship).

    If you go to the racial slur database, there is an entry there. And no, I did not know there was such a thing as the racial slur database until I googled it.

    And the connection to the slur never crossed my mind when I read PZ’s comments. Frankly, our high rate of theopathy is far more hurtful to me then any slur would be.

  91. #91 Calladus
    July 16, 2008

    Instructions:

    1) Go to mass one Sunday and observe. You want a Church that hands you the wafer, not one that places it on your tongue.

    2) Stand in line and take the Eucharist when it is given to you. Go ahead and eat it. But remember what type it is.

    3) Go to a handy online communion wafer dealer and buy a box of the exact same wafer. While waiting for delivery, brush up on your slight-of-hand skills.

    4) Attend Mass again, with an unblessed wafer tucked away. When you accept the Eucharist, switch it with the unblessed wafer.

    5) Eat the unblessed wafer and go back to your seat. Don’t create a stir. As you leave, tell the priest you enjoyed the sermon.

    6) Take your blessed cracker home.

    7) …

    8) PROFIT!

  92. #92 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Fr J wrote:

    PZ you are the atheist version of the KKK. I don’t see any difference between their ignorant bigotry and yours. Cheers, Fr. J

    The KKK, as we all should know, is a proudly Christian organisation – and all their bigotry comes straight from the bible. So they’re far closer to your mindset than PZ’s, Fr. J.

  93. #93 Robin
    July 16, 2008

    Googling braying irish or bray irish brings up no enlightening results. The only connections I can see are that Bray is a town in County Wicklow, and that the word ‘bray’ apparently derives partly from the Old Irish word braigid, “he breaks wind”. Which possibly makes it an even more appropriate term for anything Donohue says.

  94. #94 Mold
    July 16, 2008

    Wonder if SuperCatholic Man was as upset by the boyrapist priests. Attended many services conducted by laypeople over the past 50 years as the priests had to be ‘transferred’. Since I lived in 42 addresses during this time, this was a LOT of buggering pervs. I would infer that SuperCatholic Man, along with the rest of the Good Catholic Flock, had more than an inkling of the problem.

    But no, he is upset that an atheist dares to speak his mind. I think I’ll cut and paste a First Amendment to send over the tubes.

    Cyberpistol. What a noob!

  95. #95 BlueIndependent
    July 16, 2008

    The use of the word “braying” is offensive to Irish Catholics? Excuse me, but WTF? Me thinks this doofus thought he was asked one thing and replied to that, instead of what he really was asked. “Never personally encountered such bigotry”? Talk about low standards. For someone who grew up in the 40s and 50s, and was in his 20s during the civil rights movement, he’s never encountered “such bigotry” as what he’s seen here. RIGHT. We’re the bigoted ones…sure.

    You have to love the hair-trigger defensiveness of the modern republican. Everything is always and evermore a loaded weapon of some sort, and they are forever under constant fear of this vaporous contraption being used on them. Foley is another glory hound looking for limelight in the culture wars, another boy-who-cried-wolf that will concoct a tornado out of thin air.

    And Fr. J, go get a job.

  96. #96 NJOsprey
    July 16, 2008

    Use of the term “braying” when referring to Bill Donohue is indeed an insult and a slur…to mules, jackasses and donkeys. These are intelligent, strong and useful creatures; Donohue exhibits none of these qualities.

  97. #97 Aegis
    July 16, 2008

    Mr Foley, I present to you a demonstration of the difference between bigotry and criticism:

    Bigotry:
    “I hate you because you’re catholic and believe in god!”

    Criticism:
    “Your belief in god causes you to try to make a cracker more important than the lives of people, but you have no evidence it’s anything more than a cracker. For this, I think you are ignorant and completely detached from reality”.

    Hope that helps. A belief that your position is special and important does not, after all, make it special or important. Evidence that your cracker is more than a cracker might help your case. I suspect it is not forthcoming.

  98. #98 raven most holy subpope
    July 16, 2008

    Fr J the Fake Priest:

    I know I said I wouldn’t comment futher, but…PZ you are just as nuts as he is.

    Fr. J is a fake Catholic and a fake priest. How nuts do you have to be to pretend to be a fake priest on a blog?

    Is that more nuts than thinking anyone cares what a fake priest says?

  99. #99 JeffreyD
    July 16, 2008

    Fr. J., it is ok, most of us probably did not believe you when you said you would comment anymore. I mean, why would you start telling the truth now? Why spoil your perfect record?

    Oh, and atheists have been on the receiving end of catholic and xtian aggravation since, well, always.

    Now, you are more than welcome to post, to comment. This is an open blog where even the most repulsive are allowed to post unless they cross clearly defined lines. You do not come up to most repulsive standards, but you are repulsive enough.

    As for my personal feelings toward you, “scorn and defiance, slight regard, contempt”.

    Pax Nabisco padre

  100. #100 Joe Bobd
    July 16, 2008

    Foley said he thinks Myers’ actions have ended his career. “Who can listen to him lecture on science without thinking ‘Polly wants a cracker’?” he asked.

    Who can listen to Foley without thinking “Foley wanks a tracker?”?, I ask.

  101. #101 Rey Fox
    July 16, 2008

    “Frankly I think the GOP does have cause for concern.”

    Why?

    “What is really nuts is that you, and your allies, believe it’s okay to disrupt worship services to protest.”

    No services have been disrupted. PZ has several wafers in his possession now, and NOBODY knows where they came from. No one noticed. There’s no way of even knowing which ones are consecrated, and which ones aren’t. The wafers have no power, the priests have no power, you have no power. And this realization has you feeling a bit threatened, I see.

    “I would hate to see this kind of treatment be broadcasted onto the internet to prove some theory or point…Thank You”

    Proving points is a good thing. You might learn something.

  102. #102 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    But the longer this goes on the more I see his point.

    at the risk of sounding condescending, thankyou.

    I was getting entirely bored of all the concern trolls who refused to look past the surface and see what the point of all this really was.

  103. #103 Bacopa
    July 16, 2008

    He never saw such bigotry before? How is it bigorty to say that the Host is just a cracker? It is just a cracker; Right? If it isn’t, they should prove it. And I’m gonna keep saying it’s a cracker until they make at least a halfway convincing case it isn’t. Once they do I’ll back to a position of “While I personally think it’s a cracker, there’s a pretty good case it might not be; so I won’t get all up in their face about it because they’ve made a respectable attempt at proving their position.”

    And what’s all this about third parties delivering the consacrated host? I’ve seen a Catholic communion a few times and it seems that part of the magic is that you see it happening in front of you. How could believing that a priest did it somewhere else at an earlier time be enough? Kinda like that Catholic funeral I went to a while back. They had one priest for three little towns in the Mich UP. He had to be at a funeral somewhere else, but performed the rite of unction before he left town. The chapel deacon performed the funeral service the service which was about the same as any other Catholic funeral except the deacon pulled out a sheet of paper written by the priest and read it to affirm the priest had performed unction. Why was this even necessary? Why did she need to read this? The kid had severe mental and physical disabilities, there was no way anyone could say that he had reached the “age of accountability” or that he was capable of any kind of sin-like actions at all. And why wasn’t the deacon a priest? Oh, she was a woman, and had done a little fucking too. That sort of thing didn’t matter to Jesus when he commanded Mary Magdaline to spread the word of his reseurrection.

    And don’t think there isn’t a bunch of ritualistic mojo among Protestants. A check box at the end of a Chick Tract will save you? Come on now. To avoid the freaky juju you’ve gotta be UCC, DOC, ELCA, or Unitarian. But these demoninations are just fellow travelers protecting the more authentic Christian right which is attempting to drag our nation into oblivion. If these liberal Christians can’t hack that Phelps is right that God hates fags and that women are second rate humans, they should just become atheists as I am.

    There’s a war in America, and the battlefields are our schools, our armed forces, and our very bodies. And don’t think for a second that our side is winning. I have seen my once progressive state of Texas; which desegragated in the most civilized way, became a leader in science education in the 60s-80s, and became a world center for medical research, slide into fundie depravity. I hope we will not slide all the way down. Many overseas corporations have their US headquarters in Houston. Maybe Shell, Lyondell, BP, and other companies will pull some strings so that we can go back the progressive educational system we had twenty years ago.

  104. #104 Corey Schlueter
    July 16, 2008

    Has the Pope or the Vatican made comment about this or do they even know about it?

  105. #105 Science Goddess
    July 16, 2008

    I just saw a trailer for the movie “First Sunday” about two black dudes (Ice Cube and Tracy Morgan) who need money fast and decide to rob a church. When they’re given the “cracker” they ask for Cheez Whiz.

    Question: Are they going to be boycotted? Cybershot? DeathThreatted (is that a word?)

    SG

  106. #106 Dlux
    July 16, 2008

    You know, this is actually a contrived plot by the communion wafer makers to drive up sales. You are all falling for it quite nicely.

  107. #107 Russell
    July 16, 2008

    It’s not the only Party having a convention- PZ, focus on the one that’s nominating YOU!

    http://adamant.typepad.com/seitz/2008/07/if-nominated-you-will-be-served.html

  108. #108 Aquaria
    July 16, 2008

    It’s hilariously easy to get a consecrated cracker, and no one would ever be the wiser for it. Just go to a Catholic service, try to stay awake until the cookies come, get in line, put out hands, and take one. I’ve never seen anyone denied. I’ve never seen anyone asked for Vatican ID. I’ve seen plenty of congregants not eat the awful thing right away. Some of them pray over it at the pew, for some reason I’ll never understand. I’ve been to services all over the country, and never, ever seen the Church deny anyone who went through the motions to get one.

    Is it dishonest? Well, no more dishonest than a kid-diddling priest casting his magic spell on the crackers in the first place. Aren’t you Catholics the least bit concerned with where that guy’s hands have been?

  109. #109 Joe Bob
    July 16, 2008

    [Correction]

    Foley said he thinks Myers’ actions have ended his career. Who can listen to him lecture on science without thinking ‘Polly wants a cracker’?” he asked.

    Who can listen to Foley spout drivel without thinking, “Foley wanks his cracker”, I ask.

  110. #110 wrpd
    July 16, 2008

    On the internets gay cyberguys set their cypberpistols on “stunning.”

  111. #111 E.V.
    July 16, 2008

    No need to call Truth Machine to handle Friar J. That’s like calling out Rambo to deal with a particularly bratty cub scout.
    Ignore the troll. He’s just an incarnation of Kenny or possibly his slow acolyte.

    Foley has has penis envy so he tries to prove he has balls.

  112. #112 Joe Fitzsimons
    July 16, 2008

    As someone who is actually Irish (I note from Wikipedia that Bill Donohue appears to be 100% American) I don’t find the term ‘braying’ particularly offensive or prejudicial.

    On the other hand, actions on both sides of this latest incident have been a little out of order. PZ has every right to say what he did, but I wish he hadn’t. It just stirs the sh*t.

  113. #113 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    The KKK, as we all should know, is a proudly Christian organisation – and all their bigotry comes straight from the bible. So they’re far closer to your mindset than PZ’s, Fr. J.

    religionauts, if anything, are always good examples of the utilization of projection as a defense mechanism.

  114. #114 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Real cybers carry cyber rayguns anyway. Which will work well until you meet a Jedi Knight with a cyber lightsaber.

    I’ve always wondered why there aren’t any machine guns in the Star Wars universe. Probably because the Jedi would be… selected against in that case.

    (Yes, the best Western is Django, thank you for asking.)

    I would hate to see this kind of treatment be broadcasted onto the internet to prove some theory or point…

    Why not? Are you afraid of something? Are you perhaps afraid of admitting something to yourself?

  115. #115 Kougaro
    July 16, 2008

    Corey Schlueter #104 : IMO, the pope, most of the catholics, and everyone else for that matter, don’t care. they probably don’t give a sh*t about the whole story, because it’s so ridiculous.

    I find it hard to believe we live in the same world as those fundamentalists.

  116. #116 Bill from Dover
    July 16, 2008

    Cyberpistol? Yo PZ

  117. #117 Capital Dan
    July 16, 2008

    I applaud you, PZ. You found a pretty effective avenue by which to flip the switch on their persecution complex. It’s freakin’ hilarious how unhinged these folks have gotten over a cracker, and it’s a sad commentary on how people are actually going to pay any attention the paranoid yelping of these clowns.

    Then again, I may have missed the meeting where we planned to break into the RNC to kidnap all those wafery baby Jebuses. Just tell me that, aside from the cyberpistol, you’ve got some other cool toys like the ones used by Clooney and his gang in Ocean’s Eleven.

    I just can’t understand why more people aren’t laughing themselves silly over these folks. Really. This isn’t outrage. It’s freakin’ comedy.

  118. #118 demons
    July 16, 2008

    “No PZ you are the crackers!”

    And then he was the crackers…

  119. #119 gir
    July 16, 2008

    To be fair, a cyberpistol is more grounded in reality than a christ cracker.

  120. #121 Andrés Diplotti
    July 16, 2008

    I suspect the quote was edited. What Foley said must have been something like:

    “I have never personally encountered such bigotry since that Parks woman refused to give up her seat to a man only because he was white.”

  121. #122 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    . PZ has every right to say what he did, but I wish he hadn’t. It just stirs the sh*t.

    You have to stir the shit if you want it to burn completely to ash.

    Anyone who served in the military and had the fortune of doing latrine duty could tell you that.

    http://www.commando.org/images/shit.jpg

  122. #123 E.V.
    July 16, 2008

    Foley’s from Virginia so he knows a cracker when he see’s one.

    Speaking of crackers, heard about Libby Dole’s wanting to name the new AIDS Relief Bill after Jesse Helms? Just when you think the irony can’t get any greater…

  123. #124 Kimpatsu
    July 16, 2008

    Oh no, PZ is a Cyberman. Beware of curly haired men with long multicoloured scarves.
    Uh, Zarquon, the Doctor has regenerated since the Tom Baker days. He looks more like a young college professor these days.
    But the Cybermen are back ar Xmas.

  124. #125 Joe Fitzsimons
    July 16, 2008

    Ichthyic: Snappy comeback, but I think it may be stretching the metaphor beyond its limits.

  125. #126 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    Why not? Are you afraid of something? Are you perhaps afraid of admitting something to yourself?

    I have nothing to be afraid of I believe this to be a sacrament to be apart of my life, and I have nothing to admit to myself iam not the one desecrating something that is special to someone else.

  126. #127 Norman Doering
    July 16, 2008

    Requesting that consecrated hosts be taken out of churches (the only way to get them) …

    Is it the only way to get them? One could ask a Catholic priest who has turned agnostic or atheist but not yet left the church to consecrate some crackers you bought yourself. For $15 you can become a minister of life pastor and consecrate your own crackers.

  127. #128 E.V.
    July 16, 2008

    Apostrophe catastrophe.

  128. #129 Pierce R. Butler
    July 16, 2008

    The people who’ve sent them to me haven’t mentioned having to disrupt anything.

    We interrupt your regularly scheduled programming for this urgent bulletin:

    A wave of crackerjacking has struck US churches, leaving services disconnected for countless households and Homeland Security agents praying for clues…

    Brian Fabian @ # 86: … the fact that you have something that is simply put the center and heart of the catholic church…

    Prof. Myers has the Vatican? He told us he had a big back yard – maybe it’s hidden behind Skatje’s old swing set next to the kraken pit?

  129. #130 Dlux
    July 16, 2008

    If a ‘normal’ priest has the power to turn a wafer into Jesus, who did those convicted pedophile priests turn them into? Charles Manson?

  130. #131 Owlmirror
    July 16, 2008

    “Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never personally encountered such bigotry.”

    Ladies and gentlemen, I present to you, a man who has lived in a cave for the past 63 years with his eyes closed and his fingers in his ears.

    Which includes never once looking in a mirror or listening to the words that come out of his own mouth.

  131. #132 Lowell
    July 16, 2008

    Bio teacher:

    Fr. J

    PLEASE tell my it is a FEDERAL offense to take a consecrated cracker? Pleasepleaseplease!!!!! That may be the funniest thing I’ve ever heard!!!

    On earlier threads, Fr. J was going on and on about 18 U.S.C. s. 247, which makes it illegal to intentionally “deface, damage, or destroy” “religious real property,” which is defined as “any church, synagogue, mosque, religious cemetery, or other religious real property, including fixtures or religious objects contained within a place of religious worship.”

    Fr. J’s argument was that the wafers are “religious objects contained within a place of religious worship.” He cited no caselaw or other authority in support of that proposition.

    As far as I can recall, he had no substantive response to the rather obvious objection that, even assuming that the wafer is a “religious object” within the meaning of the statute, and even assuming that PZ is going to “deface, damage, or destoy” it, by the time that happens the wafer will no longer be “contained within a place of religious worship.”

    As for Fr. J’s claim on this thread that “[t]hose who have stolen consecrated hosts have committed a federal offense,” I have no idea what he’s talking about. I assume he’s just making shit up.

  132. #133 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    but I think it may be stretching the metaphor beyond its limits.

    Oh? why?

    I rather thought it a rather apt metaphor myself. However, I might be a bit biased, being an anti-theist.

  133. #134 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Has the Pope or the Vatican made comment about this or do they even know about it?

    And if so, do they really care that much about what a few crazy Americans think about it?

    For $15 you can become a minister of life pastor

    Universal Life is a vaguely Protestant sect, right? In any case they aren’t Catholics.

  134. #135 Ron in Houston
    July 16, 2008

    PZ

    Are you sure it’s not psychological projection that you see Donahue and a braying ass?

    Personally, I don’t see a whole lot of difference between him and you.

  135. #136 Emmet Caulfield
    July 16, 2008

    …Catholic League President Bill Donohue as “braying,” which Foley, a self-described Irish Catholic, claimed was “a great insult for the Irish.”

    No it fucking isn’t.

    What is intensely annoying, irritating, and cringe-making for many of us Irish (y’know, the ones who were actually born there) is having wackaloon wankstains like Bill Donahue calling themselves Irish when they’re not: we have plenty of our own genuine, home-grown assholes without having a goodly portion of American assholes associated with us too, thanks very much.

  136. #137 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    Personally, I don’t see a whole lot of difference between him and you.

    That you decided to poke your eyes out because they offended you isn’t really relevant to the discussion, troll.

  137. #138 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    Prof. Myers has the Vatican? He told us he had a big back yard – maybe it’s hidden behind Skatje’s old swing set next to the kraken pit?

    The Vatican is a place the Eucharist is the heart of the Church

  138. #139 craig
    July 16, 2008

    It just occurs to me. What is the word for taking a host hostage?

    Could it possibly be a “crackerjacking?”

  139. #140 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    “Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never personally encountered such bigotry.”

    No, I can’t imagine he has. He probably has staff to turn away minorities and other undesirables before they have a chance to get near him – unless they’re carrying a campaign contribution.

  140. #141 Max Verret
    July 16, 2008

    Lets see what the damage has been so far:

    1. The President of the U. of Minnesota has removed PZ’s blog reference from his university web site.

    2. The President of the U. of Minnesota, Paul Brinkinks, has written a letter stating clearly that the University
    disavows any association with Dr. Myers’ hate filled messages.

    3. PZ and/or his minions have managed to get one hard working lady who was trying to help support her three children, and whose only fault was that she was married to a thoughless husband, fired from her job.

    4. PZ has one RNC delegate calling for something just short of activation of the Minnesota National Guard for Convention security. I’m sure the good people of Minnesota
    just love that kind of publicity. For them, It must bring back memories of the Chicago Convention in the ’60s.

    And, I suspect that before its over Sherman’s march to the sea may look like a cake walk of destruction by comparison.

    Nice going PZ, that’s not a bad week’s work. I can’t wait to see what next week brings

  141. #142 amphiox
    July 16, 2008

    The defining aspect of human intelligence it seems, is the ability, possessed by no other organism on this planet, to, through a conscious act of will, render oneself dumber than an amoeba.

    I give you Thomas Foley. . . .

  142. #143 Jupiter BFPOE
    July 16, 2008

    PZ, I’m absolutely sure that you have the power to say magic gobbledygook and transform crackers (saltines, ritz, wheat thins whatever) into real life cyberpistols (which look and taste exactly like crackers but we’ll know the “truth”). Your minions can then use these “cyberpistols” use to attack the RNC. As one of your minions I await your command Oh! Great Cat Herder.

    I think the leader-follower mindset of Mr. Foley and the Catholic League is interesting. Of course they can’t fathom the possibility that people can read PZ’s blog and think for themselves. No, they are sure those who agree with PZ will do whatever he says just like good Catholics.

    (Actually I think it would be really great if there were a bunch of “followers” at the protest area of the RNC doing nothing but throwing crackers in the general direction of the Xcel Energy Center. No chanting, no yelling, no signs, just throwing crackers)

  143. #144 Dreamer
    July 16, 2008

    Wait, what? I’m armed with a cyberpistol? Is that what we atheist brigands use to rob trucks trundling down the tubes of the internet?< \i>

    Yeah, now I’ve got an image akin to Mad Myers Tube Warrior… that one’s gonna keep me grinning all day.

    What a sheltered life this guy has got to have lived if this is the greatest personal ‘bigotry’ he’s experienced First, he’s got serious issues if he’s unable to tell the difference between an act of protest/expression and actual bigotry. Offence is not sufficient, while malicious intent is required (Myers motivations strike me as mischevious, hardly malicious).

    Semantics aside, I’m almost a third his age and I can think of at least two incidences of personally experienced anti-Catholic bigotry. They weren’t all that bad, but I could say that I detected malice. Funnily enough, the perpetrators in both cases were other christians… let him choke on the fact that while Myers dislikes what he stands for, that dislike pales in comparison to the contempt his own evangelical ‘allies’ hold Catholics of all persuasions in.

  144. #145 NC Paul
    July 16, 2008

    The only thing that really insults me as an actual Irishman born on the island of Ireland is the number of Irish-American conservative blowhards who bring the name of our fine island into disrepute.

    Bill O’Reilly, Bill O’Donaghue, Thomas Foley and others like you – please do not use your ancestry to try to legitimise your authoritarian braying (there, I said it too – am I insulting myself?).

    I feel nothing but contempt for your political, social and religious opinions. They are yours not mine. Leave Ireland out of it.

  145. #146 Rey Fox
    July 16, 2008

    “Why not? Are you afraid of something? Are you perhaps afraid of admitting something to yourself?”

    Afraid to admit that……the cracker is a lie?!

    (I can’t be the first one to have said this.)

  146. #147 The502
    July 16, 2008

    It’s a fucking cracker!!

  147. #148 MZ
    July 16, 2008

    I look at atheism the same way that you look at religion (Catholics especially apparently). The big difference being that if I met you on the street I would still treat you and your beliefs with basic human respect. Which you and a vast majority of your posters have failed to do. I’m a Catholic and proud of it. While that obviously repulses you it is my choice and right in this country. We deserve basic human respect whether you agree with us or not. What you (as well as those people who take the Eucharist) do is sacrilege to us. It’s hateful, disrespectful, and wrong. You don’t have to believe to show some basic respect.

  148. #149 Andrés Diplotti
    July 16, 2008

    And for the record, Donohue doesn’t bray. Stop saying that. He whispers.

    He whispers things like:

    “Those evil atheistses won’t desecrate you, my preciousss…”

  149. #150 Norman Doering
    July 16, 2008

    James Goetz wrote:

    PZ, you’re no better that Donahue if you carry out your desecration challenge.

    Maybe when they do the inevitable South Park episode…

  150. #151 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    the Eucharist is the heart of the Church

    “From hell’s heart, I stab at thee. For hate’s sake, I spit my last breath at thee.”

    something tells me these “victimized” catholics got the wrong message from Melville.

  151. #152 Julie Stahlhut
    July 16, 2008

    Hey, In a society where Food Not Bombs can be considered a terrorist organization , anything is possible. (Food fight! Food fight! Food fight!)

  152. #153 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    #441 Posted by: Max Verret | July 16, 2008 7:24 PM

    It would appear that Max aspires to be a kroll.

  153. #154 jj
    July 16, 2008

    @#141
    “3. PZ and/or his minions have managed to get one hard working lady who was trying to help support her three children, and whose only fault was that she was married to a thoughless husband, fired from her job.”

    NO her husband did that. Don’t use a corporate email to send threats, actually you shouldn’t use a corporate email for anything other than work related communication – That’s a policy almost ALL companies use. That’s because they (1800flowers) are responsible for everything that is sent from their servers.

  154. #155 Longtime Lurker
    July 16, 2008

    Max Verret
    “3. PZ and/or his minions have managed to get one hard working lady who was trying to help support her three children, and whose only fault was that she was married to a thoughless husband, fired from her job.”

    Dumbass, in what way did PZ and/or his minions manage to get M. Kroll fired? Her stupid troll of a husband managed to do that.

  155. #156 Brian
    July 16, 2008

    I wouldn’t underestimate the power of our cyberpistols guys:

    http://aigbusted.blogspot.com/2008/07/did-i-get-woman-fired.html

    Apparently this guy called 1-800-Flowers to inquire about the death threat the person sent from one of their e-mail addresses and they just informed him she’s been fired. Apparently businesses don’t take kindly to employees using their e-mail servers to send illegal death threats.

  156. #157 Penguin_Factory
    July 16, 2008

    WTF? Braying is insulting to the Irish? Since when? I’ve lived in Ireland since I was seven and I can report with absolute certainty that that is a load of crap.

  157. #158 E.V.
    July 16, 2008

    Hi Ronny, you little self-hating closet case.
    You snipe like a chihuahua, but you don’t have the balls to be open about your lack of faith. If you really are an atheist.
    I think you’re just a lying conservative poser trolling while he fondles his shriveled excuse for a prick. You probably long to suckle Kay Bailey Hitchison’s wizened tits while being buggered by Dick Army and Phil Graham.
    Little Ronny, the sniveling petulant troll. Oh, what nasty things are you gonna call me now, widdle mewly mouthed Ron Ron?

  158. #159 Blondin
    July 16, 2008

    That Corpus Christi story at #51 has to be a joke, right? Doesn’t Corpus Christi mean “body of christ” in latin?

    Somebody stole the body of christ from body of christ?

  159. #160 Brownian, OM
    July 16, 2008

    I don’t see any difference between their ignorant bigotry and yours.

    -A Catholic, comparing PZ’s cracker call with the lynchings of the KKK.

    The fact that you cannot see a difference is why I will fight tooth and nail to make sure you and your kind are safely sequestered where you can no longer infect children with your stupidity.

  160. #161 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    Why not? Are you afraid of something? Are you perhaps afraid of admitting something to yourself?”

    Afraid to admit that……the cracker is a lie?!

    (I can’t be the first one to have said this.)

    Prove to me its a lie and I will prove to you that it is real and maybe sometime in the next century we will agree to disagree, that’s not the point the point is why do this, what benefit does it give, people will see this stunt and could care less but Catholics who believe in the sacrament will be hurt by it. What does it do, iam pretty sure we are not going to stop believing that the host you have is the body of Christ himself.

  161. #162 Ron in Houston
    July 16, 2008

    EV

    And the attack of the hateful mindless sycophants begins….

  162. #163 AlanWCan
    July 16, 2008

    Wait, he’s a 63-year-old catholic and he has never “personally encountered such bigotry”? Did he miss all the catholic rants against protestants and jews? gays? Did he miss out completely on the joy that was (and is) the fucking IRA? How about special dispensation requested by the churches to be allowed to discriminate against whomsoever they damn well please?
    Let’s see:
    1. bomb busload of schoolchildren…check A-OK with us catholics
    2. prevent loving couple from adopting child in need of loving family because said couple have the same chromosome complement…check A-OK with the catholics
    3. repressed sexual predator uses asymmetrical power relationship to facilitate molestation of young children…check A-OK with the catholics
    4. But mess with the crackers and all hell breaks loose!

  163. #164 jj
    July 16, 2008

    @152
    “Hey, In a society where Food Not Bombs can be considered a terrorist organization , anything is possible. (Food fight! Food fight! Food fight!)”

    Kind of scary isn’t it? Got a friend who was on the post 9/11 FBI ‘watch list’ for distributing food to the poor and homeless in Fresno. Maybe he was giving away jeebus crackers…

  164. #165 d'George
    July 16, 2008

    According to V.S. Ramachandran quoting lord Reith

    “There are some people whom it is ones duty to offend”

    Thank you Dr. Myers for doing your duty.

  165. #166 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    MZ wrote:

    We deserve basic human respect whether you agree with us or not.

    You deserve basic human respect. Your beliefs are open to criticism – as are PZ’s, mine and everyone else’s. Some of your co-religionists chose to place the belief above the well-being of an actual person; PZ strongly disagrees with that and chose to make an example of the belief in question (the eucharist) to bring it to the attention of as many people as possible.

  166. #167 unicow
    July 16, 2008

    The big difference being that if I met you on the street I would still treat you and your beliefs with basic human respect. Which you and a vast majority of your posters have failed to do.

    This man speaks the truth! I was walking down the street today and saw him (I recongized he was Catholic by his halo) and thought “Hmmm that guy must be ‘MZ’ who trolls on Pharyngula.”

    Then I totally disrespected his beliefs! It was great!

  167. #168 Pierce R. Butler
    July 16, 2008

    Friendo @ # 90 – Surely I wasn’t the only one dismayed to find that the URL you gave for the irreplaceable Racial Slur Database (“Helping make the world a better place.”) actually leads to a European enterprise whose slogan – “RSDB is an organisation of services providing companies that transform the communication expressions of their customers – with value added – into printed and multimedia productions.” – implies that slurs would cost significantly extra, though they’d be well-packaged.

  168. #169 MikeM
    July 16, 2008

    I have a cyberpitchfork, and I’m not afraid to use it.

    I’d say you could explain to them that, really, you were just being irreverent, but I don’t think they’d even understand that.

  169. #170 Brian
    July 16, 2008

    “3. PZ and/or his minions have managed to get one hard working lady who was trying to help support her three children, and whose only fault was that she was married to a thoughless husband, fired from her job.”

    Maybe she shouldn’t have sent an illegal death threat using her employers property. Companies don’t take too kindly on that sort of thing.

  170. #171 brokenSoldier, OM
    July 16, 2008

    FrJ,

    You screwed up one of your sentences. I’ll assume it was just merely a typo, because surely no one could be dumb enough to make the statement you did…

    Those who have stolen consecrated hosts have have not committed a federal offense…

    Actually, I’d be fooling myself if I thought you understood the legal system enough to determine what is and isn’t a crime, especially when you claim that there is a law – and a federal law at that! – that makes it a crime to steal consecrated wafers.

    In the case of the recent theft from a Texas church’s tabernacle, I can guarantee you that the defendants in that case will be facing charges ranging from breaking and entering to petty larceny, but the theft they will be charged with will be limited to the container the wafers were in at the time. Communion wafers, consecrated or not, have absolutely NO monetary value at all.

    Until you start putting substance behind your claims – which in this case would mean citing the statute that actually says that – you really should stay out of the grown-up conversations.

  171. #172 Teddy
    July 16, 2008
  172. #173 Pete Rooke
    July 16, 2008

    Max– You can add a #5 to that. He managed to get a woman with three children fired from her stay-at-home job by releasing the details of a hateful email sent by her husband unbeknown to her. It was a typically thoughtless move in a week that has seen PZ right back to his brashest and most vulgar and offensive. As with the Expelled conference call it was simply a case of “act now – think later”.

  173. #174 Norman Doering
    July 16, 2008

    Brian F wrote:

    Catholics who believe in the sacrament will be hurt by it. What does it do, iam pretty sure we are not going to stop believing that the host you have is the body of Christ himself.

    Wait, you really believe that PZ has “the body of Christ himself” in his basement?

    Do you think you could tell which crackers are “the body of Christ himself” and which aren’t if PZ showed you some crackers?

  174. #175 jj
    July 16, 2008

    “I will prove to you that it is real”

    DO it, right now. Lets do DNA analysys of the cracker, and then we can clone Jesus!

    Question, if you have celiacs disease are you pretty much doomed to eternal hell fire because the body of jesus will make you insides cramp up and cause excruciating pain?

  175. #176 Ryan Cunningham
    July 16, 2008

    “Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never personally encountered such bigotry.”

    It’s so hard being a white Christian male in a society dominated by white Christian males for hundreds of years!

  176. #177 AlanWCan
    July 16, 2008

    OK, so I just posted over there. Somehow I doubt this is true:

    Your comment has been submitted. We’ll review and publish it within the next 48 hours

  177. #178 KC
    July 16, 2008

    As an offspring from a fiercely Irish-American family (I add the hyphenation there to mollify those of the Irish-Irish who get noisy about the point, while rejecting their argument in entirety as a matter of semantics), I’ve never heard anything of the sort about `Braying.` I’ve heard a lot less than nice things, but nothing donkey related.

    You should reply saying that the US Supreme Court recognized an individual right to bear cyberarms. If they don’t like it, they can take an weblawsuit to the internetCourt to get you iDisarmed.

  178. #179 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Pete Rooke, #173:

    He managed to get a woman with three children fired from her stay-at-home job by releasing the details of a hateful email sent by her husband unbeknown to her. It was a typically thoughtless move by her husband, who is a moron – since what he did is against the law, and contravened his wife’s employment policy.

    Fixed it for ya.

  179. #180 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    If a ‘normal’ priest has the power to turn a wafer into Jesus, who did those convicted pedophile priests turn them into? Charles Manson?
    Posted by: Dlux | July 16, 2008 7:13 PM

    Well… the priests did eat those kids…

  180. #181 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    Wait, you really believe that PZ has “the body of Christ himself” in his basement?

    Do you think you could tell which crackers are “the body of Christ himself” and which aren’t if PZ showed you some crackers?

    175 entries and we are just now understanding that cathloics beleive that a consegrated host is actually the body of christ, of course it is why do you think iam on here defending it, if were a piece of bread why would we care.

  181. #182 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    if were a piece of bread why would we care.

    if you really think it the body of a christ, why not file kidnapping charges?

    seriously, go out and hire a lawyer, right now, and file federal and state kidnapping charges against PZ.

  182. #183 Michael Kremer
    July 16, 2008

    I am Catholic, and I denounce all death threats against PZ Myers. They are possibly criminal acts and definitely reflect badly on those who make them even if not meant seriously. I believe my views on the matter are those of almost all American Catholics.

    At the same time, again with, I think, most American Catholics, I deplore PZ’s threats to desecrate the Eucharist.

  183. #184 AJ Milne
    July 16, 2008

    …He’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table…

    Ah, yes. The triumph again of the conveniently malleable metaphor.

    See how it’s done? It’s so picturesque. Cocking a cyberpistol… it sounds so much more menacing than does ‘well, he told off a buncha wankers who were hassling a kid over a cracker and roundly mocked people who actually believed certain foodstuffs become portions of a deity at regular weekly intervals’. This is the point: it serves a political purpose, same as does all the CL’s windy noise on the subject… the fact that the metaphor bears absolutely no resemblance to what actually happened here is, of course, of no concern. So hey, he wins this one. These are the rules of politics, and of the conveniently malleable metaphor. It’s his metaphor, he can do with it as he wishes. Mocking an arcane and bizarre belief is officially now menacingly cocking a ‘cyberpistol’. You cybercrazed cybergunman, you…

    Fortunately, however, we’ve still got Foley dead to rights, too… Seein’ as transparent grandstanding demagoguery of this stripe is hereby officially declared to be cyberbeating up cyberlittle old ladies and cyberorphans for their cyberpensions ‘n cyberalms…

    That cyberbastard.

  184. #185 jj
    July 16, 2008

    “that cathloics beleive that a consegrated host is actually the body of christ”

    The concept of a metaphor has escaped Catholicism completely

  185. #186 firemancarl
    July 16, 2008

    PZ ought to hold the cracker at cyber gunpoint. That’ll teach those Catholics. Ransom the damn thing too.

  186. #187 BobC
    July 16, 2008

    “What’s he telling them to do? Consecrated Hosts are not just lying around,” he said to CNA, noting that the only other possible way to secure a Host would be to accost a priest, nun, or layman taking the Sacrament to the sick.

    Nuns visiting the sick in hospitals will now need armed guards, thanks to PZ.

    I’m looking forward to PZ carrying out his threat to cause serious harm to a cracker. Then the Catholics will really go nuts.

  187. #188 Norman Doering
    July 16, 2008

    Brian F wrote:

    175 entries and we are just now understanding that cathloics beleive that a consegrated host is actually the body of christ,…

    Why would you believe something like that?

    Is there any sane reason to believe something like that?

    …of course it is why do you think iam on here defending it, if were a piece of bread why would we care.

    Because you’re doing parody and satire? Because you’re a concern troll?

  188. #189 Michael Kremer
    July 16, 2008

    Blondin @#159

    Follow the link — it is no joke, though it is a curious coincidence. Somebody stole consecrated hosts from the tabernacle in the Cathedral in Corpus Christi, Texas. Really.

  189. #190 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    “that cathloics beleive that a consegrated host is actually the body of christ”

    The concept of a metaphor has escaped Catholicism completely

    Read the Bible and maybe you will understand that there is not use of a metaphor here

  190. #191 firemancarl
    July 16, 2008

    Wait! I thought the Reps. were all about gun ownership.

  191. #192 freelunch
    July 16, 2008

    Could they open up a fake convention somewhere in Minneapolis for the RNC idiots who don’t even know where they are going?

  192. #193 Hessenroots
    July 16, 2008

    Lets see what the damage has been so far:

    1. The President of the U. of Minnesota has removed PZ’s blog reference from his university web site.

    It’s his personal blog. I think it’s questionable if the link even belonged there in the first place. What’s the damage?

    2. The President of the U. of Minnesota, Paul Brinkinks, has written a letter stating clearly that the University
    disavows any association with Dr. Myers’ hate filled messages.

    Of course they do. Any public entity would do the same. PZ could have suddenly started ranting about how much he dislikes [noun], thus pissing off lovers of [noun] and the U would have the same stance. Religion, puppies, whatever…it’s the reaction of the opposition that garners the response. Again, what damage?

    3. PZ and/or his minions have managed to get one hard working lady who was trying to help support her three children, and whose only fault was that she was married to a thoughless husband, fired from her job.

    You don’t think the husband might, just maybe, be at fault for sending the email in the first place? It’s unfortunate that she’s married to a rube but can’t see how it’s PZ or any his “minions” fault. Certainly some harm here but it’s certainly not anyone here’s fault that the mail was sent.

    4. PZ has one RNC delegate calling for something just short of activation of the Minnesota National Guard for Convention security. I’m sure the good people of Minnesota
    just love that kind of publicity. For them, It must bring back memories of the Chicago Convention in the ’60s.

    Actually Bill Donohue crying wolf created this. As for publicity this entire episode has more or less been online only. Ask the average Minneapolis or St. Paul resident on the street about it and they’ll have no clue what your talking about. If you want to call this damage (which it isn’t) the only one to blame is Bill Donohue…and perhaps the overreaction of one GOP delegate.

    They’ve been talking about trying to get more security for well over a month now, long before this whole situation even came up.

    And, I suspect that before its over Sherman’s march to the sea may look like a cake walk of destruction by comparison.

    I lol’d. I really, really hope you’re kidding about that. Comparing this stupid internet squabble to the Savannah Campaign is beyond idiotic. Talk about overreacting…

  193. #194 frog
    July 16, 2008

    Well it’s not just the religious imbeciles who are calling PZ a bigot, and equating rudeness with bigotry. See http://scienceblogs.com/framing-science/2008/07/on_pz_don_imus_atheism_and_ath.php
    for Nisbet’s take on this: he posts Andrew Sullivan’s mutterings to say exactly that with a bit of plausible deniability (being an academic in communications, he absolutely knows that such a move is Propaganda 101).

    Of course, my comment reflecting on that was bounced — I tried to be polite, but it was a bit too close too home I guess.

  194. #195 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Brian F wrote:

    175 entries and we are just now understanding that cathloics beleive that a consegrated host is actually the body of christ, of course it is why do you think iam on here defending it, if were a piece of bread why would we care.

    For your non-existent god’s sake Brian, do you open a book (if you and your kind haven’t burned them all) at the middle and start reading looking at the pictures from there?

    If you go back to the original thread from last week you’ll find that the concept has been explained dozens of times. We know what you think happens to the cracker. It’s just that we a) don’t believe that it happens, and b) don’t care that you do believe that it happens.

    Not agreeing or caring is not the same as not understanding.

  195. #196 NC Paul
    July 16, 2008

    #173 – So by your logic if I report a crime that results in the perpetrator (or, to tailor the analogy more precisely, an accomplice) being punished, I’m the bad person?

    In summary:

    Sending a threatening e-mail (from your wife’s work address no less) – OK;

    Snitching on the threatening e-mailer – not OK.

    Pete – it strikes me that your moral compass might not be reading true North on this.

  196. #197 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    4. But mess with the crackers and all hell breaks loose!

    what’s really funny is all the fake victimized catholics, who claim that PZ wouldn’t ever do the same to Muslims, when he actually did do just that:

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/desecration_its_a_fun_hobby.php

    what’s more amazing, he didn’t receive death threats from Muslims for that post, or have a shitstorm of insanity arise from it.

    so, I begin to wonder which group has the larger number of radical, insane, fundamentalists willing to do violence at the mere mention of exposing one of their ridiculous notions.

    so far, the Catholics are winning by orders of magnitude on the “insane threatening others” front.

  197. #198 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    EV
    And the attack of the hateful mindless sycophants begins….
    Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 16, 2008 7:32 PM

    And the senseless comments from the sock puppet troll continue…

  198. #199 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    Why would you believe something like that?

    Is there any sane reason to believe something like that?

    If you are someone that is open to normal conversation and has a bible handy i can explain it easy, but if you dont beleive in the bible or are open to a different point of view then I would just be wasting my time

  199. #200 Dave Wisker
    July 16, 2008

    They are braying because they aren’t used to anyone challenging their world-view so openly. They should sit, pipe down for awhile, and get used to it.

  200. #201 freelunch
    July 16, 2008

    Actually Bill Donohue crying wolf created this. As for publicity this entire episode has more or less been online only. Ask the average Minneapolis or St. Paul resident on the street about it and they’ll have no clue what your talking about. If you want to call this damage (which it isn’t) the only one to blame is Bill Donohue…and perhaps the overreaction of one GOP delegate.

    No doubt the average resident of The Cities would tell Donohue and his cowering horde that Morris was practically in the Dakotas and that Donohue was an idiot.

  201. #202 jj
    July 16, 2008

    “Read the Bible and maybe you will understand that there is not use of a metaphor here”

    No my point is that these things in the bible are metaphors, remember its a simile that uses “like” or “as”, so a metaphor would look like a ‘literal’ statement, and any rational person would notice that it isn’t, due to how far from reality it is.

    Example:
    Simile – “I’m hungry as a wolf”
    Metaphor “I’m a hungry wolf” <- Nowhere do I make the distinction I’m not a wolf, but a rational person would figure out that this is a metaphor.

  202. #203 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    for Nisbet’s take on this

    *sigh*

    I had hopes that eventually, Matt would settle down and stop trying to play up the fallacy of the golden mean.

    ..but no, he seems very intent on burning the house down to aggrandize his failed agenda.

    I think most of us have decided to wash our hands of him at this point.

    bye Matt.

  203. #204 Pete Rooke
    July 16, 2008

    @ Wowbagger

    We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour. Were you to as well you would realize that you punish the sinner and not the sinned against. Those children do not deserve the pain and cramps that could arise from not eating tonight. They do not deserve to make do with shoes stuffed with newspapers, and borrowed from their father, during P.E. because they couldn’t afford to purchase a new pair. They do not deserve having to stand in the “reduced lunch” line at school because they can no longer afford the full rate of $2.50 each day. Actions have consequences and PZ – as a scientist – should know this. He doesn’t though possibly because he has no moral guidance. That’s not to malign all atheists as I’m sure some are perfectly decent people and have an atheist acquaintance who I have conversed with without any trouble or pause.

  204. #205 Ken Cope
    July 16, 2008

    “Hokey religions and ancient Republicans are no match for a good cyberpistol at your side, kid.”

  205. #206 jj
    July 16, 2008

    The end of my example got cut off

    BUT – Nowhere in the metaphor do I state that I am not a wolf, but a rational person would understand that I am not a wolf.

  206. #207 frog
    July 16, 2008

    Michael Kremer: I am Catholic, and I denounce all death threats against PZ Myers. They are possibly criminal acts and definitely reflect badly on those who make them even if not meant seriously. I believe my views on the matter are those of almost all American Catholics.
    At the same time, again with, I think, most American Catholics, I deplore PZ’s threats to desecrate the Eucharist.

    I might have missed some, but that is the first sane Catholic response I’ve seen so far. Measured, rational, and appropriately insulted in perspective. Michael points out, first and foremost that the death threats are unacceptable. Only after that, as a side-note, does he point out that he’s deeply insulted — which is reasonable and appropriate. That’s life — I wouldn’t expect someone who believed in magic to not be insulted, to not dislike PZ and refuse to invite him over for a dinner party.

    One out of thousands of posting. Hurrah to Mr. Kremer — but unfortunately, he is the exception that proves the rule. I would change my opinion on this if I saw the Catholic hierarchy take such a stance — clearly tell the imbeciles in their congregations that it is more un-Catholic to threaten an opponent with death than to desecrate a cookie. Then I might be able to believe that they have the faintest glimmer of a ghost of a sense of morality.

  207. #208 Katie
    July 16, 2008

    I don’t understand why it hasn’t occured to this Foley guy that you can get a “consecrated” communion wafer by going up for communion and then pocketing the cracker instead of putting in in your mouth. You don’t need to ambush any nuns.

    Although maybe he can’t imagine a world where a non-believer would dare go to mass under false pretenses. Maybe he expects non-believers to be struck down as soon as they step inside the church?

  208. #209 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    No my point is that these things in the bible are metaphors, remember its a simile that uses “like” or “as”, so a metaphor would look like a ‘literal’ statement, and any rational person would notice that it isn’t, due to how far from reality it is.

    Example:
    Simile – “I’m hungry as a wolf”
    Metaphor “I’m a hungry wolf”

    But when he said this at the last supper, desciples actually left because of what he was saying and the fact that they could not beleive it, this is why we take it as written

  209. #210 Aquaria
    July 16, 2008

    #199…

    You’re going to use the Bible to prove something to people who, on average, think the whole thing is a bloodthirsty Fairy Tale?

    You’re dumber than you look.

  210. #211 Ryan Cunningham
    July 16, 2008

    Why is it Republicans are such chicken shit cowards? Can someone explain why there is always a bogeyman right around the corner that these warmongers are so fucking afraid of? Why is the party of tough talk is also the party that starts running for more security guards and cops the moment they get a little scared? What’s the deal with these Big Strong Men of The Lord also being the biggest pussies in the country?

  211. #212 vespera
    July 16, 2008

    MZ (#148),

    Let’s talk a little bit about the issue of the religious and respect. For instance, it’s a common trope in U.S. politics that you can’t be a “true American” without believing in God. This is not even a controversial position; prominent politicians say things like that all the time and suffer no consequences whatsoever, because most oh-so-respectful religious people AGREE with this.
    Of course I don’t know you, but I would not be surprised if you nod along when you hear this type of sentiment.
    Also, as a Catholic you probably believe that I deserve to be tortured for ETERNITY for not believing as you do, which also doesn’t seem respectful to me.
    When people who believe in God aren’t yelling “one nation UNDER GOD” in my face — and rebuke those who do — then maybe I’ll worry more about your unleavened bread.

    And Ichthyic (#102), I’m afraid your condescension did come through, though I’m not sure I understand the reason for it. As a long-time lurker in what is supposed to be a community of freethinkers I was surprised at how quickly I was branded a “concern troll” for disagreeing with everyone else. I didn’t even disagree all that MUCH — I agreed that PZ had the right to do what he did and wrote a letter in support of that right — I just said I personally didn’t think it was the right approach. But that was all it took for “nonconformists” to call me a name instead of arguing with me.

  212. #213 Emmet Caulfield
    July 16, 2008

    I look at atheism the same way that you look at religion

    What? As a belief in supernatural agencies without any empirical evidence? You have a funny definition of atheism and religion!

    The big difference being that if I met you on the street I would still treat you and your beliefs with basic human respect. Which you and a vast majority of your posters have failed to do.

    This isn’t the street, it’s a blog. As a human being, you have certain rights which nobody here would seek to violate. Your beliefs are entitled to no such respect, including your belief that a cracker turns into a bit of a Levantine Jewish zombie when a man in a dress says “hocus pocus” over it: this is patently absurd and deserves nothing but derisive laughter.

    I’m a Catholic and proud of it.

    We all have our cross to bear.

    While that obviously repulses you it is my choice and right in this country. We deserve basic human respect whether you agree with us or not.

    Again, your person has rights including expressing your beliefs, no matter how absurd, but your beliefs do not, of themselves, have any rights whatever.

    What you (as well as those people who take the Eucharist) do is sacrilege to us.

    Nobody has done anything. Even if they had, it’d be your tough shit: last time I checked, your religion’s particular notion of “sacrilege” wasn’t a crime any more than not wearing a burka.

    It’s hateful

    No, it isn’t. I think your beliefs are nonsensical and absurd, but there is simply no hate involved

    disrespectful

    Yes, true, I have no respect for your beliefs.

    and wrong

    No, getting your panties in a bunch because a kid wanted to show a cracker to his buddy is stupid, saying that it’s stupid isn’t wrong.

    You don’t have to believe to show some basic respect.

    Nobody has shown any disrespect toward persons except the Catholic Taliban who threatened violence and death. Asinine nonsense like transubstantiation is an insult to human intelligence and deserves no respect: don’t confuse respect for an idea with respect for a person.

  213. #214 Norman Doering
    July 16, 2008

    Brian F wrote:

    If you are someone that is open to normal conversation and has a bible handy i can explain it easy, but if you dont beleive in the bible or are open to a different point of view then I would just be wasting my time

    What do you mean “if you dont beleive in the bible”? I believe there is a Bible, but I don’t think you can move a mountain with faith by telling it to move nor do I believe your faith will let you walk on water. I also don’t think you have any special power drink poison or handle snakes… things the Bible seems to claim.

  214. #215 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    You’re going to use the Bible to prove something to people who, on average, think the whole thing is a bloodthirsty Fairy Tale?

    You’re dumber than you look.

    Can you see me???

  215. #216 BobC
    July 16, 2008

    I just visited the blog of Matthew C. Nisbet where he was criticizing PZ and I suggested he live in a theocracy if he doesn’t like free speech. I noticed he reviews all comments before publishing them, which means he really is against free speech. From what I have heard about Nisbet, he sounded like an asshole. Now I’m sure he’s an asshole.

  216. #217 Tulse
    July 16, 2008

    “He managed to get a woman with three children fired from her stay-at-home job by releasing the details of a possible felony abetted by her violation of her employer’s IT policies.”

  217. #218 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Brian F wrote:

    I would just be wasting my time

    Again, Brian, if you read through all of the comments on all of the posts on this topic since this affair began you might realise you are correct – but not for the reasons you will automatically assume.

    Some particular well-versed and eloquent posters have spent hours explaining to us the history and justification for the eucharist within the Catholic church and what they believe are the compelling arguments for Christianity.

    Almost all of them have been better at it than you’re likely to be – I don’t mean that to be insulting; it’s just a fact – and it hasn’t made a difference.

    Go back and read what almost all of us have read. It’s going to take you some time. If, once you’ve done that, you have anything new or interesting or different to add, feel free. If not, you are – as you say – ‘wasting your time’.

  218. #219 Marcus Ranum
    July 16, 2008

    This is getting way too craaaaazy. How come every almost freaking US American politician is crazy?

    He’s not crazy. He’s looking for an “issue” he can get some press time about, which won’t involve any large government expenditures and will allow him to say he “took a strong stand” and “did the right thing” blah blah blah.

    Politicians love nonissues like this because they can turn them into issues, and distract the vast dumb flock from the real issues – which are not solvable with soundbites and handwaving. Because this tactic works, we wind up with a political system whose public face is driven by soundbites and handwaving.

  219. #220 NC Paul
    July 16, 2008

    #204 – You know, you’re right – no child should have to live through such melodramatic Dickensian poverty because their father was an idiot and posted a threatening e-mail on their mother’s work mail account. Perhaps we should have the kids taken into care by social services.

    Extreme – I know – but as mad as it sounds, it makes a whole lot more sense than blaming the guy the threatening mail was aimed at, who’s terrible crime, according to you, was reporting that he’d been threatened.

  220. #221 Noadi
    July 16, 2008

    What sort of pathetic Irishman think braying is “a great insult for the Irish.” Seriously, the Irish have some of the most creative insults I have ever heard, if you think “braying” is bad visit an Irish pub sometimes and you’ll be quickly re-educated on that point. If any happen to be from the Gaelteacht they can insult you in English and Irish (Gaelic).

  221. #222 Hessenroots
    July 16, 2008

    @204 “Actions have consequences”

    Much like using your spouses business email account to send threatening emails has a consequence.

    Nice attempt to drum up sympathy though. It certainly is unfortunate if that family falls on hard times due to the husband being an irrational fool.

    “We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour. Were you to as well you would realize that you punish the sinner and not the sinned against.”

    Threatening to beat in someones skull isn’t against your holy text? Impressive.
    Or is it more of a sliding scale thing, one offensive more heinous then the other so the lesser one doesn’t count?

    I’ll leave your comment on “moral guidance” from text to someone else, it’s something of a dead horse around here.

  222. #223 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    I’m not looking to change anybody’s mind I just wonder what posting a person desecrating a host on the Internet does

  223. #224 BMurray
    July 16, 2008

    Were you to as well you would realize that you punish the sinner and not the sinned against.

    She *is* the sinner — she violated the contract of her employment.

    If you have children who will have to stuff newspaper in their shoes should you lose your job, it behooves you to be careful about keeping your job.

  224. #225 dcb
    July 16, 2008

    Shorter Thomas Foley:

    “Meyers shouldn’t be allowed to say that.”

    Perhaps Mr. Foley thinks free speech should be reserved for people who agree with him.

    Foley explained that he thought Myers should not be able to incite such acts with “impunity,” saying that he was especially disturbed by the comments posted on Myers’ blog.

    Tedious.

  225. #226 BobC
    July 16, 2008

    Matthew C. Nisbet quoted Andrew Sullivan: “It is one thing to engage in free, if disrespectful, debate. It is another to repeatedly assault and ridicule and abuse something that is deeply sacred to a great many people.”

    Apparently Nisbet thinks everyone should respect crackers, especially holy crackers. Nisbet is willing to throw out free speech to protect the feelings of people who worship crackers. Nisbet wants to muzzle PZ so that people who worship crackers are not offended by scientists.

    Nisbet, if you are reading this, go fuck yourself.

  226. #227 Dutch Delight
    July 16, 2008

    I’m glad that delegate Foley agreed that there were so many comments from bigots.

    I’ve only seen trolls do pretty sad impersonations of “militant atheists” who all seemed very preoccupied with a particular sect of christianity for non-believers. And then there was a bunch of bigots calling for heads to roll over a cracker.

    Terrible stuff indeed.

  227. #228 Ted D
    July 16, 2008

    Brian F @223

    I’m not looking to change anybody’s mind I just wonder what posting a person desecrating a host on the Internet does

    To me? Nothing. But then, I already know that it’s just a cracker. You obviously need a demonstration.

  228. #229 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    To me? Nothing. But then, I already know that it’s just a cracker. You obviously need a demonstration

    Demo for people that beleive that it is not a cracker will not change a thing

  229. #230 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Pete Rooke, #204

    She was fired for letting him use her work computer. If her husband had sent a threatening email to anyone else and they’d complained then the result would have been the same. If he’d downloaded porn or file-shared music and the company had been informed the result would have been the same.

    I also feel bad for Melanie Kroll, and especially for her children – since they do not deserve to suffer for either the carelessness of one parent nor the complete stupidity of the other. The appropriate punishments, i feel, would be a warning to Melanie Kroll – and at least a well-publicised trial for her husband, even if no conviction occurred.

    I guarantee that most, if not all, the regulars here also feel bad that she’s lost her job. That’s right. Compassion from amoral atheists. Are you shocked? I can guarantee you most of what you’ve assumed about atheists is wrong.

    Anyway, the only person who should feel guilty about this is her husband. He chose to violate her employment policy. He chose to break the law by sending a threatening email to PZ.

    Plus, as catholics, they have the ultimate safety net. Don’t you believe in a just and loving god? Surely he will redress the balance if there is a need.

  230. #231 Brian F
    July 16, 2008

    Thanks for the debate….Good Bye

  231. #232 Fez
    July 16, 2008

    What is it with Republicans named Foley and dicks? They’re either trying to stick them into teenage boys or acting like one.

  232. #233 John
    July 16, 2008

    Those children do not deserve the pain and cramps that could arise from not eating tonight. They do not deserve to make do with shoes stuffed with newspapers, and borrowed from their father, during P.E. because they couldn’t afford to purchase a new pair. They do not deserve having to stand in the “reduced lunch” line at school because they can no longer afford the full rate of $2.50 each day. Actions have consequences and PZ – as a scientist – should know this. He doesn’t though possibly because he has no moral guidance.

    What utter foolishness.

    The failed moral compass belongs to the father of the three shoeless and starving children. A Catholic who decided that the way to defend his faith was with an almost illiterate death threat that he sent from his wife’s business e-mail. Now that is impress moral guidance, that one must assume was taught to him by the Church.

    If you want to try to lecture someone I recomend get your facts straight and then look elsewhere.

  233. #234 J Myers
    July 16, 2008

    Also, as an aside, if I were to be Catholic and want to partake of these awful crackers but can’t since I have Celiac disease…

    There’s no gluten in zombie meat, bio teacher; you’re good.

  234. #235 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Brian, did you even read anything that was posted here? For your own enlightenment, do as I suggested – go and read the older posts and the comments on them.

  235. #236 Piscean Rubble
    July 16, 2008

    I have trouble putting into words what I think of this whole things since it began. But to sum it all up, I think “insane” would do just fine. I can’t believe that people have this much time on their hands to worry about what one person did with a cracker. I think perhaps the atheist movement is having a stronger affect than we may have realized. It would seem that Catholics are feeling a little touchy about the ligitmacy of their religion. If you’re sure that a cracker is the body of Christ, what the hell do you care what anyone says about it? Just go on and keep eating your crackers…wait…you’re eating Christ!!! That poor guy just wanted to walk with Christ!! Aren’t there more important things going on in the world to get all up in arms about (literally) … real injustices, torture, starvation, brutality…get a grip people!

  236. #237 dt
    July 16, 2008

    PZ,
    Don’t be surprised by this latest press development. It’s all part of the discredit and demonize game played by theocrats. Because Melanie/Chuck Kroll’s vulgar, ignorant and violent email to you (and her subsequent dismissal) is now being relayed through several media outlets, they are going on the offensive.
    They aren’t going to mention that both you and the student who absconded with the communion wafer have received death threats. Instead, they are going to say that they are afraid of you, because you may have violent tendencies. I am surprised that you haven’t been called a terrorist – yet.
    Stay strong. And if you haven’t already, I would forward the threats you have received to the police.
    They will continue to ratchet up the press war.

  237. #238 Ted D
    July 16, 2008

    Brian F:

    Demo for people that beleive that it is not a cracker will not change a thing

    Let me reply with a quote from yourself.

    If you are someone that is open to normal conversation and has a bible handy i can explain it easy, but if you [are not]dont beleive in the bible or are open to a different point of view then I would just be wasting my time

  238. #239 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    I just posted this at Nisbet’s blog. It is in blog purgatory waiting for his approval.

    Let me see if I’ve got this straight.

    It is OK for Christians, be they Catholic or whatever, to consistently claim that an atheist like myself is condemned to an eternity in hell if I do not believe in their fairy tales, but dare atheists point out the ridiculousness of the rituals that perpetuate this true bigotry, we are somehow rude and sophomoric.

    And Nisbett is twisting the frame when he holds up Sullivan as an example of an atheist… he is not, he is Catholic. “…it springs from my Catholic faith, which, despite the best efforts of the Catholic hierarchy, endures. The inherent dignity of all human beings is something I believe is a reflection of God’s will through the revelation of Jesus Christ.” Granted, he declares he is not crackpot “Christianist”, but to imply he is some sort if polite enlightened atheist is intellectually dishonest at best.

  239. #240 Chris P
    July 16, 2008

    #204 – Peter Rooke

    So is this like saying we shouldn’t report priests for molesting people because they might go to jail and suffer.

    I know they don’t have wives or children but laws don’t change if you have a wife and kids – just the consequences of stupid actions become worse.

    This means you have to be more responsible. The religious people I have seen seem more interested in buying the biggest SUV and having the most kids to impress their fellow churchgoers without thought to how it affects the planet.

  240. #241 Norman Doering
    July 16, 2008

    Brian F wrote:

    Demo for people that beleive that it is not a cracker will not change a thing

    It might if there were still a smidgen of sanity left to latch on to. Many of us atheists here used to be Christians until something got us thinking about how crazy the things we were asked to believe were.

  241. #242 Luke
    July 16, 2008

    You should take the crackers, and glue them together in your favorite Athiest logo – like the “A” with the atoms flying around it.

    Or glue them together in the shape of an octopus < - that would make a great header for your site

    :)

  242. #243 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    Thanks for the debate….Good Bye

    ass-door-etc.

  243. #244 Tom
    July 16, 2008

    Okay, add my confusion to the pile. Why in the world do they need to tighten security at the Republican National Convention against people who want to misappropriate consecrated hosts? Might as well ask for extra police protection at an International House of Pancakes because they heard some guy was intent on getting his hands on some horseshoe nails.

    To quote Hermione Grainger, “What…an…idiot.”

  244. #245 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    Many of us atheists here used to be Christians until something got us thinking about how crazy the things we were asked to believe were.

    some Catholics even realize the insanity of it all, and have posted their recognition here:

    (from the very first thread)

    Ok, this is craziness. I’m Catholic, and when I first read the story, I thought “Yeah, that guy was a bit rude for just taking the Eucharist like that”, and that was it. No death threats. No calls for people to be fired. No demands to have the host back (for what reason?? There are stacks and stacks of them in any church!!). Just a bit of a headshake, and that’s it. Why people are making such a huge deal about this, I have no idea. They’ve got nothing else on the go I suppose. It stories like this that don’t make me feel great about my beliefs at all. I don’t always agree with what your blog says when it comes to religion, but this time, I do.

    Posted by: Josh | July 10, 2008 5:14 PM

    Why people are making such a huge deal about this, I have no idea. They’ve got nothing else on the go I suppose.

    Josh is wise, for a Catholic.

  245. #246 Nerd of Redhead
    July 16, 2008

    Brian F., I know a few analytical chemists. If you tell me how the Eucharist differs from a pre-blessed wafer, I can have those chemists look for the differences and prove you right. If either you can’t describe the differences, or there proves to be none, then logic dictates that the Eucharist is a sham. This is the way evidence based philosophies like science operate. The burden of proof is always on the claimant, in this case, anyone, including you, who insists the Eucharist has special powers. At some point, with the crowd here, you are either going to have to put up or shut up. I suggest you retire from the fray.

  246. #247 Max Verret
    July 16, 2008

    Re: Brian #170

    “Maybe she should not have sent an ellegal death threat using her employer’s property.”

    As I appreciate the facts, she didn’t send an illegal death threat; her husband did and there is no indication that she even knew about it until she was called down by the company. The only possible negligence she could possibly be guilty of, aside from marrying a thoughless husband, was in not securing her company’s email account. But in marriages there is a certain amount of trust and one does not anticipate that the spouse would do what he did. At any rate, her negligence doesn’t seem to rise to the level of a firing offense and apparently PZ and some of his minions realize that belatedly. The company, of course, had been alerted to the incident by scores of PZ’s minions who were all too eager to notify them after PZ had published the information they needed. PZ, realizing the injustice that had been done, recanted and reversed his decision to do that in the future. Several of PZ’s minions have posted breath-beating regrets. Little good that does for the poor lady who was only trying to support her three children

  247. #248 Chris P
    July 16, 2008

    #183 Michael Kramer

    I deplore Catholics taking over the pledge of allegiance and having meaningless unprovable stuff put in it.

    I deplore Catholics who encourage people to have large families and overpopulate the planet.

    Crackers are meaningless in comparison.

  248. #249 Neural T
    July 16, 2008

    We’re not bigots. We hate the irrationality, not the irrationalists.

    And Foley is being a bit melodramatic, isn’t he? So far the death threats have come from only one side. You know, the side that speaks for Jesus.

  249. #250 genesgalore
    July 16, 2008

    you pistol packing, cracker blasting, cyberbray you.

  250. #251 AgnoAtheist
    July 16, 2008

    Well I’ve read about 3,000 posts now on this subject and for the first time in post #183 I have finally heard a catholic renounce the death threats.

    Since we have people actually claiming that taking a wafer (handed to you) is either stealing or abduction I hope someone gets arrested. Would bail be a box of Ritz?

    I see the beginnings of a new musical – Less Miserables. “…that I may find him, Safe behind bars, This I swear by the Stars”.

  251. #252 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Damn, I was out for dinner and missed the fun.

    These idiots are completely without any semblance of proportion. I guess worshipping a cracker throws off other rational faculties.

  252. #253 Ted D
    July 16, 2008

    Max Verret @247

    As I appreciate the facts… [etc etc]

    I’m sorry, do you need help getting back to your own dimension? Because the way you are appreciating facts, they seem to bear little resemblance to what is going on in this one.

    What constitutes a “firing offense” is surely up to her company to decide. And do please explain how notifying the company of the offence, major or minor, is wrong. Oh, I have some sympathy for her, but the only one who has done anything actually wrong here is her husband.

  253. #254 Pete Rooke
    July 16, 2008

    @ Chris P

    It’s fashionable for young ladies to wear something called “mini”-skirts these days. They do not come anywhere close to covering the knee roll. Now if I were to tell my daughter not to wear a mini-skirt, coupled with a low cut blouse, because it made her more vulnerable to sexual assault she would still bear absolutely no responsibility for – God forbid – being raped. Yes she would have been ill-advised and careless but the blame – in the eyes of your Godless law no less – would rest solely with the assailant.

    So yes, Kroll may have been too trusting and careless but the blame (and punishment) should rest solely on Mr. Kroll.

  254. #255 d
    July 16, 2008

    Re: Max Verret
    The only possible negligence she could possibly be guilty of, aside from marrying a thoughless husband, was in not securing her company’s email account.

    Melanie Kroll has posted comments on Greg Laden’s blog about the email her husband sent. She is not remotely apologetic for the content of the email. She is only sorry that her husband sent it from her work account. And then she goes on to make a number of excuses for his threats.

    She is not a poor lady.

  255. #256 SC
    July 16, 2008

    Nisbet:

    but in fact, it has turned into the Web’s leading echo chamber of anti-religious rants and sophomoric discussions of atheism, what the physicist Chad Orzel refers to as the “screechy monkey” problem.

    Echo chamber – this from a man who heavily moderates comments. This hypocrite doesn’t have a cyberpopgun. And Orzel doesn’t have a cyberspitwad.

  256. #257 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    An atheist thinks the religious world-view is whacko, therefore they’re bigots. A religionists world-view has “infidels” burn in hell forever and they’re not bigots?

    That sounds pretty accurate. After all, ever hear anyone call Pope Nazinger the vile anti-gay bigot he is?

  257. #258 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    @vespera:

    As a long-time lurker in what is supposed to be a community of freethinkers I was surprised at how quickly I was branded a “concern troll” for disagreeing with everyone else.

    I’m sure I don’t recall your specific related entry, but if it was like the rest of the similar: “I don’t see the point of why PZ is being so mean” posts, that you “disagreed” with what PZ was doing was not the reason for labeling such a post “concern trolling”.

    But that was all it took for “nonconformists” to call me a name instead of arguing with me.

    aside from the fact that this is a non-sensical statement, are you absolutely sure nobody pointed out the flaw in your reasoning, or that someone hadn’t already pointed out the general flaw in the reasoning you were using in the dozens of other posts that missed the point of what PZ was doing?

    Did you perhaps post your comment very late in a thread, and fail to notice the dozens of posts that were likely just like yours above it that had already been responded to?

    seriously, my post you responded to here was not meant to be condescending.

    This one, however, does indeed have a condescending overtone. Intentionally, just to be clear.

  258. #259 Larry
    July 16, 2008

    #37

    Someone mentioned the KKK. PZ you are the atheist version of the KKK.

    When PZ starts pulling crackers out of their houses in the middle of the night and lynching them, we’ll talk. Until then, get a fucking grip on the fastly receding sense of reality you have.

  259. #260 Greg
    July 16, 2008

    re Max #247

    Prove that it wasn’t her that sent the threat. All we have is somebody claiming that she had no knowledge of the email and blaming a husband who may or may not exist.

    I know that in my company the computer usage regulations are spelled out very clearly and, as an employee, I have a responsibility to maintain a secure computer. It is also stated in my company’s computer policy that failure to comply with the regulations can be cause for disciplinary actions up to and including termination.

    As I only have empirical proof for my own company, I can only theorize that it is similar in others. That being said, I believe that this lady’s problems go beyond her computer.

  260. #261 Dlux
    July 16, 2008

    Brian F: “Read the Bible and maybe you will understand that there is not use of a metaphor here.”

    How is it that some Christians think the communion wafer is truly the body of Christ, while others don’t believe in it at all? What kind of loose-ass religion is this, anyway? Can’t you guys get this right after 2000 years?

    Which side is Jesus supposed to choose, and why? Explain why Catholicism is correct while all other forms of Christianity are heresy. Go ahead – we’ll listen.

  261. #262 JeffreyD
    July 16, 2008

    Pete Rooke at #204 – Wow, you have have an atheist acquaintance? Far out, do you know some black people too, or gay people, or black atheist gay people? I am so impressed by your tolerance of others.

    Oh, and the rest of you apologists, not you Pete, we have heard the cracker story from you, you can stop.

    An open question for the group, why is it that none of the xtian blogs allow open posting? Pharyngula is open to all, even the vile and repulsive like Fadda Guido, err, Fadda J. How about some reciprocity, or is your faith too weak, your god too small?

    Finally, at least for this post, I will be glad to help any xtian who wants to shake the shackles of imaginary friends. I will even give you a real email and write back in real time – contact me at my blog. I will not even respond to the hateful attacks with the contempt they deserve, although I may post them, names and addresses omitted, on here for fun. However, I will delete them, again, once I have read them.

    Pax Nabisco y’all

  262. #263 Bert Chadick
    July 16, 2008

    PZ has followers? Readers, sure.
    I think you should put one of those crackers in a sealed box, and at that point, unobserved, it is both desecrated and pure at the same time. Woo! I think I could start a religion based on that.

  263. #264 paradoctor
    July 16, 2008

    PZ: you’ll find it difficult to out-blaspheme the original ceremony. After all, they _eat_ the wafer. That’s natural if it’s just a cracker, but if it’s a transubstaniated gobbet of man-god flesh, then eating it is the most disrespectful, sacreligious, and degrading possible thing to do with it. This was well understood in Roman times, but 2000 years of ritual and rationalization have leached all the flavor out of Jesus’s over-the-top jest.

    I say that the only way to satirize a rite so deeply self-satirical is to play the straight man. What would _you_ do if someone gave you a wafer of flesh? Bury it decently, of course; or better yet, cremate it and scatter the ashes. So that’s what I suggest that you do.

    Put the wafer in a little coffin and read the obsequies over it. Ashes to ashes, dust to dust. All with a straight face, of course.

    Not only would this be respectful; it would reveal, by contrast, how disrespectful the original ceremony is.

    That way Mr. Donohue could make no profit off your jest.

  264. #265 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    I guess worshipping a cracker throws off other rational faculties.

    not exactly.

    it’s forcing a false faith in the idea of a cracker as something sacred and magical in the face of every other sense and sensibility telling one otherwise that throws off rational faculties, necessarily.

    that level of dissonance requires the utilization of very strong defense mechanisms to maintain it.

  265. #266 genesgalore
    July 16, 2008

    “we are somehow rude and sophomoric.” …..well, when one considers what we are dealing with it might be the only to communicate effectively with the. so here goes: NANA NANA BOO BOO. STICK YOUR HEAD IN DOO DOO. JESUS CAN’T DO EMAIL. JESUS CAN’T DO EMAIL……he just whispers in to the ears of the chosen few because the rest of us are not worthy.

  266. #267 vespera
    July 16, 2008

    God, now we have people whining “Won’t somebody think of the children?”

    Spare me. We have no reason to think the kids are going to wind up stuffing their shoes with newspapers — people have overactive imaginations. And even if they were … it’s because their moron Dad sent a death threat, which Catholics posting on this thread don’t seem too bothered by.

    Apparently it’s much worse to admit to receiving a threat, if he’s an atheist, than make one, if he’s a Catholic.
    Chuck Kroll seems like a foul human being and I have no sympathy for him. I do have some sympathy for his wife … but, she married the guy and it was her responsibility to protect her email. The kids ARE the victims here, though I think having Mr. Kroll for a parent is likely to do more damage than anything stemming from this uproar.

  267. #268 Geral
    July 16, 2008

    “What I think he has done, he’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table. He may have set something in motion that no one can stop. It was irresponsible, a hell of a thing to do.”

    The irony is this guy will probably defend the second amendment quite literally to tooth and nail, yet he’s worried about PZ’s cyberpistol? PZ might as well be squirting a water gun, but hey – it burns..

    This whole thing is a joke. I can’t believe it got this big.

  268. #269 John Morales
    July 16, 2008

    OMG this thread!

  269. #270 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    On the internets gay cyberguys set their cypberpistols on “stunning.”

    Only the out gays. The Republican ones hide theirs in airport restrooms.

  270. #271 SteveM
    July 16, 2008

    @72:
    Those that consume the host also aren’t suppose to eat or drink for one hour afterwards.

    I was raised Catholic and I don’t remember that. I do remember you were supposed to be fasting before receiving communion. But then, that was back before you were allowed to even touch the wafer with your fingers.

    [sorry for skipping over a few hundred comments, but they are just coming too fast]

    On another note, does anyone else think the “Fr. J” has completely abandoned all pretense at appearing to be a priest and has decided to just revel in his trollness?

  271. #272 Dlux
    July 16, 2008

    @#261 – Too slow to the (cyber)draw. Brian already left.

    I guess we’ll never find out why there are so many contradictory sects of Christianity (let alone all the other forms of religion)…

  272. #273 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    #254

    Just about anyone who works for a company that uses IT has to undergo IT training. Upon completing said training, you are responsible for upholding the company’s IT policies. Such policies include IT security, securing your passwords, e-mail, etc.

    Even if you didn’t have “training”, you are still responsible for the IT policy.

    At the very least, Mrs. Kroll IS at fault for not properly securing her COMPANY e-mail. If this has happened before (i.e. if the hubby has been using her e-mail account with her consent), then she can be held accountable for messages sent from her COMPANY account.

    Is that a firing offense? That’s really a company policy.

    Is the husband a douche? Yes. Are death threats illegal? Absolutely.

    I don’t think I’ve seen anyone who thinks Mrs. Kroll is some sort of evil mastermind in a plot to harass PZ. But as many MANY posters have pointed out, neither is she pure as the driven snow in this.

    She failed to secure her company e-mail. That is totally her fault. It’s not as huge as death threats. But that part of it is. Her. Fault.

    Would I have fired her? Probably not (retaking the IT training would be a must though). But the policy may not have any flexibility in it. Sucks, but the company has a right to reduce it’s liability when someone sends death threats from their server.

    Blaming the posters who alerted the company to a death threat? Let me call the waaaaahmbulance for you.

  273. #274 Geral
    July 16, 2008

    “What I think he has done, he’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table. He may have set something in motion that no one can stop. It was irresponsible, a hell of a thing to do.”

    The irony is this guy will probably defend the second amendment quite literally to tooth and nail, yet he’s worried about PZ’s cyberpistol? PZ might as well be squirting a water gun, but hey – it burns..

    This whole thing is a joke. I can’t believe it got this big.

  274. #275 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Maybe all the prayers other catholics will be saying for the benefit of the Kroll children will inspire god to do something about it.

    Wanna take bets?

    What’s more likely, though, is that the decent people amongst the catholics in their area will reach out and help them. Which, of course, will be touted as a ‘miracle’ or the sort of thing only christians could achieve in the face of such overwhelming atheist persecution.

    That, or a book deal.

  275. #276 J Myers
    July 16, 2008

    mayhempix, #239: Nisbet wrote “fellow atheists and free speech advocates” before quoting Sullivan, so he was likely citing him as a representative of that latter, so-broad-as-to-be-nearly-meaningless category. Though the juxtaposition was a bit confusing, and Nisbet’s post was especially asinine… for a review of Sullivan’s hypocrisy on this matter, see bad’s post here.

  276. #277 Dlux
    July 16, 2008

    “What would _you_ do if someone gave you a wafer of flesh?”

    If that flesh was Jesus? I’d nail the fucker to a cross, that’s what I’D do!

  277. #278 raven
    July 16, 2008

    Death threats are a federal offense, a felony. People routinely get sent to prison for these. Cameron Moore threatened someone from his workplace at Agilent, got convicted and sent to prison. He also got sued and owes his victims 1.1 million dollars. Agilent itself is being sued.

    Agilent was sued in 2003 by Mountain View residents Michelangelo Delfino and Mary E. Day, who claimed the company, along with employee Cameron Moore, was responsible for intentionally and negligently inflicting emotional distress against them through cyberthreats that Moore made.

    The employee allegedly sent anonymous threats to the plaintiffs through e-mails and postings on a Yahoo! message board primarily using the screen name crack smoking jesus, which he later admitted to the FBI was his pseudonym.

    The flower company is potentially liable for millions of dollars in damages for colluding and enabling the commission of a felony.

    PZ is being extraordinarily nice here. He could file a complaint with the FBI cybercrimes unit. With the amount of evidence available, Chucky would end up in prison.

  278. #279 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour. Were you to as well you would realize that you punish the sinner and not the sinned against. Those children do not deserve the pain and cramps that could arise from not eating tonight. They do not deserve to make do with shoes stuffed with newspapers, and borrowed from their father, during P.E. because they couldn’t afford to purchase a new pair. They do not deserve having to stand in the “reduced lunch” line at school because they can no longer afford the full rate of $2.50 each day.

    You people just can’t keep your stupidity and hypocrisy to yourselves, can you? You want people to respect you because you’re so fucking stupid and dishonest that you blame PZ for the consequences of someone else sending him a death threat — consequences enacted by the guy’s wife’s employer? You yourself shit all over your “moral text” by claiming that it justifies your own blatant immorality.

  279. #280 frog
    July 16, 2008

    Icthyic: it’s forcing a false faith in the idea of a cracker as something sacred and magical in the face of every other sense and sensibility telling one otherwise that throws off rational faculties, necessarily.

    It’s actually an interesting question. I took a class long, long ago with Rappaport, who studied religious ritual (“Pigs for the Ancestors”). He thought that an irrational belief was necessary for the function of ritual.

    Recalling long-ago hazy days, the idea was that religion functions as a kind of context for Austen’s performative utterances (things like “I thee wed”, where the statement is not a statement of fact, but a statement that creates a fact). Underneath that is required a guarantee of honesty, of the fact that you accept the ritual as being efficacious, and not simply “play”. In general, underneath all language there has to be something at least pre-rational — after all, language is about a real world, it isn’t the real world itself.

    So, an irrational belief at the heart of a religious ritual is kind of a loyalty test — it guarantees that you’ve agreed not to analyze the ritual as a series of statements of fact, or some kind of imaginative play, but as directly linked to the underlying reality. When I say, I thee wed, It Is So — I’ve done it in front of the magic fairy.

    You believe it in your bones, because otherwise you couldn’t claim The Magic Fairy; as a rational statement the “before God” could be a lie, but it would be an obvious lie, so therefore it isn’t a rational statement at all, and the concomitants are therefore not rational statements of fact since they’re based on a clearly irrational statement; “I thee wed” then is beyond Truth and False, but just is, it becomes a pre-rational (or irrational) statement that causes reality.

    Or that’s what I got. I guess us seculars have had to replace the irrationality of Fairies with more human irrationalities — “I love you forever unconditionally” would be an example, since it’s obviously not a statement that could possibly true, or more concrete insanities like “America: Right or Wrong,” another insane statement with a religious flavor.

  280. #281 Dlux
    July 16, 2008

    “Those that consume the host also aren’t suppose to eat or drink for one hour afterwards.”

    ‘Cause you’re not supposed to eat in church. You’d still be sitting there waiting for the priest to finish up his sermon on the logic behind the Holy Trinity. Duh!

  281. #282 CrypticLife
    July 16, 2008

    “I deplore Catholics taking over the pledge of allegiance and having meaningless unprovable stuff put in it.”

    Resoundingly seconded! Add forcing my kids to say it into that!

    Croatia, at the urging of the Catholic church, has recently passed a law requiring businesses (other than flower shops, newsstands, and bakeries) to close on Sundays.

    The Catholic church has absolutely no problem with oppression.

  282. #283 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour.

    Have you executed your child for talking back yet? Do you make your women separate themselves from the men when they’re menstruating? Shun men who have sex with those women during that time of the month?

  283. #284 D
    July 16, 2008

    “The people who’ve sent them to me haven’t mentioned having to disrupt anything”

    How how many do you have now?

  284. #285 Max Verret
    July 16, 2008

    Re: Tulse @217

    “Releasing datails of a possible felony abetting violation of her employer’s IT policy.”

    Maybe TZ should see that the authorities prosecute her and send her up for a few years. Then he would not only have deprived her of her job but deprived her three children of a mother.

    What a GREAT GUY.

    However, in light of the breath-beating and contrition in some of the posts, I don’t think that’s going to happen. Even in the deepest recesses of the atheist mind there must be some modicum of compassion.

  285. #286 johnpreiss
    July 16, 2008

    Hey you made the front page of my site. You are not supposed to eat and drink one hour before Mass, to post 281. Where did our soul come from??

  286. #287 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    or more concrete insanities like “America: Right or Wrong,” another insane statement with a religious flavor.

    Here’s the sane version:

    http://www.bartleby.com/73/1641.html

    Schurz expanded on this theme in a speech delivered at the Anti-Imperialistic Conference, Chicago, Illinois, October 17, 1899: “I confidently trust that the American people will prove themselves … too wise not to detect the false pride or the dangerous ambitions or the selfish schemes which so often hide themselves under that deceptive cry of mock patriotism: ‘Our country, right or wrong!’ They will not fail to recognize that our dignity, our free institutions and the peace and welfare of this and coming generations of Americans will be secure only as we cling to the watchword of true patriotism: ‘Our country–when right to be kept right; when wrong to be put right.'”–Schurz, “The Policy of Imperialism,” Speeches, Correspondence and Political Papers of Carl Schurz, vol. 6, pp. 119-20 (1913).

  287. #288 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    However, in light of the breath-beating and contrition in some of the posts, I don’t think that’s going to happen. Even in the deepest recesses of the atheist mind there must be some modicum of compassion.
    Posted by: Max Verret | July 16, 2008 9:13 PM

    blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

  288. #289 hje
    July 16, 2008

    I guess the outraged Foley has Chekhov’s gun in mind:

    “If you say in the first chapter that there is a cyber-pistol hanging on the wall, in the second or third chapter it absolutely must go off. “

  289. #290 BadMA
    July 16, 2008

    Have any of these trolls actually met Dr. Myers? He’s such a nice guy in person. He doesn’t come across as the kind of person they think he must be.

    (It’s good they haven’t met his readers, though. All those tentacles, big bulging muscles, and evil gazes would send them running!)

  290. #291 Numad
    July 16, 2008

    “‘Cause you’re not supposed to eat in church. You’d still be sitting there waiting for the priest to finish up his sermon on the logic behind the Holy Trinity. Duh!”

    Then they really shouldn’t put vending machines at the back!

  291. #292 Harry Sigerson
    July 16, 2008

    “Insulting to the Irish!!”

    Did I miss something, the man is an American. Speaking as a Scot, born to a Dublin girl, who spent a lot of his childhood in Ireland; who is total at home in both countries and who knows Ireland quite well thank you very much, I have no idea how braying can be described as…. Gaelist??? (would that be the word?)

    Even if it were insulting to the Irish… again he isn’t Irish!

    Come to think of it I’ve come across not a few braying Irish men in my time, usually staggering out of O’Rourke’s in Blackrock, Co.Dublin on a Friday night. Usually in my company!

  292. #293 Dahan
    July 16, 2008

    Tom Piatak at 55,

    Yeah, I know, a long time ago. Hard to keep up.

    “only people who are supposed to do that are Catholics in a state of grace, i.e., not conscious of grave sin, and they are supposed to immediately consume the host, not keep it. These rules are well known. Those taking the host with the intention of desecrating it are engaged in fraud and theft.”

    So, if someone is a Catholic (they keep you on the records forever, you know) but no longer believes in god, so doesn’t believe in “sin”, they pretty much can do what they please with it. The “state of grace” is just as much a made up construct as “the host”. It’s like these girls that are “reclaiming their virginity”. OK, whatever.

    Obviously, it’s difficult for you to understand that this is a mind crime, not a real one. Eat it and shit it? Fine, but only as long as you’re thinking holy thoughts. If I took it and was thinking “fuck you catholic church” as it dissolved, you’d probably also call it a crime. You aren’t very convincing.

    Pathetic, really.

  293. #294 E.V.
    July 16, 2008

    #162Wonny in Hooston
    Whatsa’ matter Snoogums? We all know you’re a Concern Troll.

  294. #295 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Maybe TZ should see that the authorities prosecute her and send her up for a few years. Then he would not only have deprived her of her job but deprived her three children of a mother.

    What a GREAT GUY.

    Maybe Max Verret should torture kittens. Then he would have made all the children cry.

    What a GREAT GUY.

  295. #296 Neural T
    July 16, 2008

    You all might want to read this:

    http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1461

    They have quotes from PZ criticizing the Danish cartoons, and say, “He even went so far as to say that Muslims ‘have cause to be furious.'”

    Does make him look hypocritical.

  296. #297 frog
    July 16, 2008

    Pete Rook: t’s fashionable for young ladies to wear something called “mini”-skirts these days. They do not come anywhere close to covering the knee roll. Now if I were to tell my daughter not to wear a mini-skirt, coupled with a low cut blouse, because it made her more vulnerable to sexual assault she would still bear absolutely no responsibility for – God forbid – being raped. Yes she would have been ill-advised and careless but the blame – in the eyes of your Godless law no less – would rest solely with the assailant.
    So yes, Kroll may have been too trusting and careless but the blame (and punishment) should rest solely on Mr. Kroll.

    Pete, you have the temerity to compare a woman being raped, and it’s “justification” that she was tempting “men” (scare quotes appropriate) by wearing a short skirt, with someone being fired because they didn’t follow explicit company policies?

    Wow, another example of the moral monstrosity that is bred in these “churches”. My God, what a scum-bag you must be to believe these two cases are at all analogous.

    Since you are obviously a cretin, let me spell it out for you. In the first case, someone with the perfect legal right to wear whatever the hell she wants to wear is assaulted and given possibly permanent psychological and physiological damage due to the perverse fantasies of someone else, that have in actuality nothing to do with the so-called “underdress” but is broadly understood to be due to actualizing fantasies of power and abuse.

    In case two, someone agreed to a set of policies as a precondition of employment — aka, signed a contract. She was found in breach of that contract, and the contract was terminated. In essence, no different from getting your car repo’d because a check you put in the bank bounced. Yes, too bad, but no “punishment” is involved, it is simply a question of contractual obligation.

    Really, only someone who is completely blind, beyond autistic, could possibly come up with such an offensive analogy.

  297. #298 JoJo
    July 16, 2008

    Max Verret #285

    Maybe TZ should see that the authorities prosecute her and send her up for a few years. Then he would not only have deprived her of her job but deprived her three children of a mother.

    Who’s TZ?

    The thing you forget, Max, is that the woman’s husband committed a felony. Because she likely violated company policy by allowing, intentionally or unintentionally, her husband to commit a crime using company property, the company fired her. She is an accessory to a crime. Mrs. Kroll became a liability to the company. That’s why the company fired her.

    Even in the deepest recesses of the atheist mind there must be some modicum of compassion.

    Regardless of what Foley may think, it wasn’t atheists who sent death threats.

  298. #299 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    Chuck Kroll seems like a foul human being

    even his notpology was disturbing.

  299. #300 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Does make him look hypocritical.

    Yes, well, that’s what the quote mining and mischaracterizations are intended to do … or are you saying you actually swallowed it?

  300. #301 wrpd
    July 16, 2008

    max verret:
    “It’s fashionable for young ladies to wear something called “mini”-skirts these days. They do not come anywhere close to covering the knee roll. Now if I were to tell my daughter not to wear a mini-skirt, coupled with a low cut blouse, because it made her more vulnerable to sexual assault she would still bear absolutely no responsibility for – God forbid – being raped. Yes she would have been ill-advised and careless but the blame – in the eyes of your Godless law no less – would rest solely with the assailant.”

    Right. And my late mother-in-law should have known better than to wear that too-sexy flannel ankle-length nightgown the night someone climbed in bed with her and said,”You know you want this.”

    You are a fucking moron, max.

  301. #302 BobC
    July 16, 2008

    Dlux in #261 asked a good question: “Which side is Jesus supposed to choose, and why? Explain why Catholicism is correct while all other forms of Christianity are heresy.”

    In Catholic grammar school the nuns drilled into us that Catholics and only Catholics go to heaven. Everyone else, including non-Catholic Christians, go to hell. I have heard Fundamentalist Christians say Catholics go to hell, including Mother Theresa.

    This is why I’m convinced the religious people who think they have the best moral values, because their morals came from Mr. God, have no moral values at all. Nothing could be more disgusting than a belief that your cult and your cult only escapes the wrath of the Magic Man.

  302. #303 frog
    July 16, 2008

    PeteRook: And I almost missed it — you put your own daughter in this fantasy. That somehow, the punishment of your daughter via rape for disobeying you was analogous to someone losing a job for not following company policy.

    Lord, I hope your daughter gets out of that house quickly.

  303. #304 Dlux
    July 16, 2008

    #286: johnpreiss “Hey you made the front page of my site.”

    This?

    http://johnpreiss.wordpress.com/god-given-roles-of-husband-and-wife/

    “The vocation of most women is motherhood. Guiding girls to prepare for a working career is harmful when attention should be given to prepare them to be full-time homemakers.”

    That’s quite a site.

  304. #305 George
    July 16, 2008

    One searches in vain for an adult among PZ Myers’ amen chorus.

  305. #306 JeffreyD
    July 16, 2008

    truth machine regarding your #287, I am reminded of another quote about right or wrong, Mark Twain wrote about the US actions in the Phillipines:

    “Against our traditions we are now entering upon an unjust and trivial war, a war against a helpless people, and for a base object — robbery. At first our citizens spoke out against this thing, by an impulse natural to their training. Today they have turned, and their voice is the other way. What caused the change? Merely a politician’s trick — a high-sounding phrase, a blood-stirring phrase which turned their uncritical heads: Our Country, right or wrong! An empty phrase, a silly phrase. It was shouted by every newspaper, it was thundered from the pulpit, the Superintendent of Public Instruction placarded it in every schoolhouse in the land, the War Department inscribed it upon the flag. And every man who failed to shout it or who was silent, was proclaimed a traitor — none but those others were patriots. To be a patriot, one had to say, and keep on saying, “Our Country, right or wrong,” and urge on the little war. Have you not perceived that that phrase is an insult to the nation?”

    Strikes a cord in several ways with me.

    Pax Nabisco

  306. #307 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    Does make him look hypocritical.

    beware of quotemining.

    tell me, after you read this:

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/desecration_its_a_fun_hobby.php

    whether or not PZ is being hypocritical.

  307. #308 kmerian
    July 16, 2008

    Dr. Myers, check what you have recieved. If any of them are postmarked “Corpus Christi, Texas” you have recieved stolen property. The Cathederal in Corpus Christi was entered and the tabernacle (where the Eucharist is stored) was vandalized and broken into.

    Other than that, turn the Eucharists you have recieved over to the nearest Catholic Church and get a life.

  308. #309 Rahne
    July 16, 2008

    CYBERPISTOLS ARMED AND READY SIR

  309. #310 E.V.
    July 16, 2008

    Thought: Why does man kill? He kills for food. And not only food: frequently there must be a beverage.

    -Woody Allen

  310. #311 Pete Rooke
    July 16, 2008

    you have the temerity to compare a woman being raped, and it’s “justification” that she was tempting “men” (scare quotes appropriate) by wearing a short skirt, with someone being fired because they didn’t follow explicit company policies?

    I will concede that she may also have been tempting “women.” These days you just don’t know.

    She was fired for being careless and not logging out (presumably). I was not trying to draw a moral equivalence between the two acts but rather commentating on the responsibility of each individual.

    Say for instance I left the keys in the car and had it stolen. My insurance would not cover the cost because I violated my contract. My mistake, yes. However, the ultimate responsibility rests with the thief (in this case the husband).

    The point was PZ was extremely negligent in that he posted the email with all accompanying information for his acolytes to harass and abuse the sender, irrespective of their culpability. As usual he failed to think before he acted in an effort to court controversy and reap revenge for some admittedly nasty emails.

  311. #312 DaveL
    July 16, 2008

    Oh, come on! Obviously Foley isn’t afraid of violence from PZ. He just wants to have a bunch more security guards around the RNC. Security men. Big… Strong… Strapping… Men! ;)

  312. #313 John Morales
    July 16, 2008

    @296:
    Indeed, it does make Bill Donohue look hypocritical.
    Look at the bottom of the release:

    Contact Professor Paul Z. Myers at myersp@morris.umn.edu

    Hoping for more death threats, no doubt.

    Thanks for pointing that out.

  313. #314 E.V.
    July 16, 2008

    One searches in vain for an adult among PZ Myers’ amen chorus.
    Posted by: George

    Hi Ron. Sockpuppet much?

  314. #315 Ron in Houston
    July 16, 2008

    EV

    Seriously, stop. You already look like a fool.

  315. #316 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    Say for instance I left the keys in the car and had it stolen.

    say, for instance, that the issue in front of us is quite clear and simple enough that it doesn’t actually require hypotheticals for comparison.

  316. #317 raven
    July 16, 2008

    In Catholic grammar school the nuns drilled into us that Catholics and only Catholics go to heaven.

    Standard fundie dogma is that the Catholic church is the church of Satan and the Pope works for the Antichrist. They say it often. Hagee, the Texas bigot for Jesus just came out with another anti-Catholic tirade a few months ago. Jack Chick says it in comics.

    The Catholics all say the Protestant churches are fake. Ratzinger just said that again a while ago.

    Apparently no one cares much these days. After 400 years of horrific war, they just got tired of endless rounds of murdering each other.

  317. #318 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Oh, come on! Obviously Foley isn’t afraid of violence from PZ. He just wants to have a bunch more security guards around the RNC. Security men. Big… Strong… Strapping… Men! ;)

    Has Foley been hanging out with former VA Congressman Ed Schrock (phone sex line), former FL Congressman Foley (we know the chat messages) or Senator Craig (I still think Miss Richfield needs tours of the MSP Craig Loo) or Senator Graham?

  318. #319 DaveL
    July 16, 2008

    As for what to do with the wafers he’s received, might I suggest PZ transubstantiate them into the true substance and essence of George Carlin?

  319. #320 Neural T
    July 16, 2008

    Ichthyic #307

    In light of new evidence, I adjust my beliefs.

  320. #321 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    You already look like a fool.

    I’m wondering if Ron is at least half parrot?

    since that’s what we’ve been telling him for days now.

  321. #322 Ron in Houston
    July 16, 2008

    Dammit EV, you are clever.

    You just proved I was a “concern troll” for caring if you look like a fool.

    OK, how about this go fuck yourself.

  322. #323 Dlux
    July 16, 2008

    “Other than that, turn the Eucharists you have recieved over to the nearest Catholic Church”

    Better yet, call the Church Police!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dehAiSJHZM

  323. #324 BobC
    July 16, 2008

    “turn the Eucharists you have recieved over to the nearest Catholic Church”

    kmerian, did you elect yourself to be the policeman of scienceblogs? Go fuck yourself.

  324. #325 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    kmerian,

    No doubt unconsecrated crackers have been sent to PZ as well. Are you claiming to be able to tell the difference between ‘just a cracker’ and the eucharist?

    Can you explain how you’d go about that?

  325. #326 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    However, the ultimate responsibility rests with the thief (in this case the husband).

    The point was PZ was extremely negligent

    The point is that you’re a hypocritical pile of rotting garbage trying to pass itself off as a human being.

  326. #327 Ron in Houston
    July 16, 2008

    Ichthyic

    WTF is a parrot?

    OK I’ll be a full parrot and parrot my previous post.

    Go fuck yourself.

    Awk. Polly want a cracker.

  327. #328 Keith B
    July 16, 2008

    This box of holy crackers cracks me up.

  328. #329 Josh
    July 16, 2008

    Here’s my (attempted) post at Polly Prissypants’ Matt Nisbet’s blog. I highly doubt the Framer in Chief will let this kind of candid criticism sully his electronic stoop, but here’s hoping I’m wrong:

    Mr. Nisbet:

    1. You wrote: “Even fellow atheists and free speech advocates are troubled. Here’s what Andrew Sullivan has to say”

    You know that Sullivan is a Catholic, right? And no, the “and free speech” phrase doesn’t mitigate your mistake.

    2. You wrote: “In a recent interview on the podcast Point of Inquiry, host DJ Grothe asked PZ if he worried that scienceblogs.com was becoming better known as “atheistblogs.com.” It’s a question that merits serious consideration, especially in light of recent events.”

    You realize that PZ gave a cogent (even if you disagree with it) answer to DJ on that question, right? You were going to acknowledge that, rather than disingenuously pretending that PZ offered no reasonable response, right?

    3. You wrote: “What alarms me the most about the incident, however, is the major perceptual hit that the scienceblogs.com community and brand continues to take because of PZ’s antics.”

    And that brings us right to the heart of why so many people – people who would otherwise listen to the points you make – have tuned you out. You display all the classic signs of a ethically bankrupt salesman and demagogue:

    a. You’re never “angry,” or “outraged,” you’re merely “alarmed,” or “concerned,” or “troubled.” Anyone who gets angry is never justified in your worldview; they’ve failed in Framing World.

    b. You claim to care about the substance of issues, but your rhetoric gives the lie. You talk incessantly of “perceptions” and “brands.” You consistently fail to address direct, relevant criticisms from your opponents. When they challenge you to define the line between massaging rhetoric to draw in consensus (a reasonable approach) and selling out to win fair weather friends, you don’t respond.

    c. You are – there’s no subtle way to frame this – an insufferably prissy hand-wringer. You fret and worry and twist your hankie into a knot over the actions of outspoken, vocal opponents of religious nonsense. You simper about how alienating and, gosh, just mean we all are. All the while, you ignore the fact that your conciliatory (and that’s being kind) approach has accomplished absolutely zero in affecting public discourse on important scientific and church/state separation issues.

    Come on, surprise me, Mr. Nisbet – let this post go through.

  329. #330 llewelly
    July 16, 2008

    PZ, this is really important. You need to get a hold of some erector set parts, and some old PCI cards from a dead computer – or any kind of circuit board with chips on it – and screw the mess together into a vaguely assault-rifle looking thing. That’s the ‘cyberpistol’ . Then, pose your beautiful octopus as holding the ‘cyberpistol’, pointed at a christ cracker. Photo the result for us to enjoy. If you have a good friend who takes good photos, have them take the photo.

    (P.S. Since Foley seems to think the RNC is threatened – does that mean the RNC is a cracker? Or does Foley think he is Christ? I’m confused.)

  330. #331 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    #325

    And what would happen if a priest thought that one of the crackers wasn’t consecrated, and consecrated it again?

    Super-concentrated extra-holy Jesus flesh(TM), that’s what! Twice the Jesus, half the fat!

  331. #332 brokenSoldier, OM
    July 16, 2008

    We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour.

    Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 16, 2008 8:00 PM

    I’m glad you have a book that tells you how to be a good person. We free-thinkers have figured out how (and why) to do that all on our own, so we threw out the user’s manual.

    If you need a book to tell you what is moral or immoral, right or wrong, and good or bad, then maybe you wouldn’t do well out on your own anyway, so it’s probably for the better that you have someone dictating your morality to you.

  332. #333 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    One searches in vain for an adult among PZ Myers’ amen chorus.
    Posted by: George | July 16, 2008 9:26 PM

    That’s what happens when you wear a god bag over your head George.
    Blindness is a given.

  333. #334 poke
    July 16, 2008

    Are you sure the crackers you’re receiving have been turned into Jesus?

  334. #335 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Super-concentrated extra-holy Jesus flesh(TM), that’s what! Twice the Jesus, half the fat!

    Oustanding! Does it work to give Michelob Ultra any taste?

  335. #336 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    In light of new evidence, I adjust my beliefs.

    no problem. I’m sure you’ll be able to do the same for me tomorrow.

    that’s the wonder of embracing reason instead of superstitious nonsense.

    WE get to adjust our thinking as new evidence arises.

    I do hope that at least a few of the religionauts can see the value of that, embrace it for themselves, and begin a slow descent back to reality.

    I’m encouraged by the few that have posted in these threads, claiming to be Catholic, that apparently have been stimulated to try (I have posted a good example several times now).

  336. #337 Pete Rooke
    July 16, 2008

    @ “the truth machine, OM”

    “…Put off all these: anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth. Lie not one to another…” Colossians 3:8,9

    Here are some things that we can do without in this life. When we put on the new man through Christ, then we can put off the old man with all his evil deeds.

    “Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.” Psalms 37:8

  337. #338 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    You are a fucking moron, max.

    You’re right, wrpd, but for the wrong reasons … Max didn’t write that.

  338. #339 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    Are you sure the crackers you’re receiving have been turned into Jesus?

    exactly as sure as the Catholics are, I’m sure.

  339. #340 Everbleed
    July 16, 2008

    Well I just bought a 1,000 Cavanagh communion bread wafers on eBay. Thanks miui!!!!!!

    Now if I can just find a priest for sale…

    I nominate Snickers Bars as the thinking persons communion wafer. Even though Kit Kat bars are really more “wafer” like, “Snickers Really Satisfies”.

    If I get my Cavanagh wafers consecrated and have my wife lay one each into the bottom of her delicious stuffed mushrooms, do they become Magic Mushrooms?

    What next. I say go for the wine/sherry/blood… whatever.

    Man, I’m gettin’ hungry!

    I will post pix of me desecrating the consecrated wafers in solidarity with PZ. Can a Deacon consecrate wafers?

  340. #341 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    Oustanding! Does it work to give Michelob Ultra any taste?

    Then would it be liquid Jesus? Because that makes my brain go to a dark place.

  341. #342 JoJo
    July 16, 2008

    Pete Rooke #311

    The point was PZ was extremely negligent in that he posted the email with all accompanying information for his acolytes to harass and abuse the sender, irrespective of their culpability. As usual he failed to think before he acted in an effort to court controversy and reap revenge for some admittedly nasty emails.

    What is it with these concern trolls? This one can’t be a conservative, because conservatives are down on coddling criminals.

    A guy threatens to kill PZ. Besides being the antithesis of giving a warm, fuzzy feeling to PZ, communicating a threat over the internet is a crime. This particular crime is not a “slap your wrist, you’re a bad boy, pay $50 and court costs” misdemeanor. It’s a “you can spend years in substandard housing with some very nasty neighbors” felony. So why is Pete Rooke whining about PZ’s negligence? Does he automatically give every criminal a Get Out of Jail Free card? Or only the Catholic criminals?

  342. #343 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    Super-concentrated extra-holy Jesus flesh(TM), that’s what! Twice the Jesus, half the fat!

    LOL

  343. #344 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    @Pete Rooke

    You think your stupid godbotting is going to get you respect? You’re a fucking troll piece of shit with not an honest bone in your body. You would do yourself a favor by leaving this place; you could pretend that you’re following your bullshit “moral text” and turning the other cheek.

  344. #345 DaveL
    July 16, 2008

    then we can put off the old man with all his evil deeds.

    What does Dick Cheney have to do with this?

  345. #346 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    Then would it be liquid Jesus? Because that makes my brain go to a dark place.

    *resisting……*

    *gives up*

    Jesus enemas?

  346. #347 llewelly
    July 16, 2008

    Alejandro, #27:

    This is getting way too craaaaazy. How come every almost freaking US American politician is crazy?

    I have a brother who is convinced that some of them secretly smoke meth. ‘I mean, look at the Patriot act. Only meth can make you that fucking paranoid.’

  347. #348 Tom P.
    July 16, 2008

    We deserve basic human respect whether you agree with us or not. What you (as well as those people who take the Eucharist) do is sacrilege to us. It’s hateful, disrespectful, and wrong. You don’t have to believe to show some basic respect.

    The Catholic Church uses its hateful teaching to take away a woman’s right to choose. The Catholic Church uses its hateful teachings to deprive gays and lesbians of their basic human rights. When the Catholic Church stops being hateful, disrespectful, and wrong to those who disagree with them then they can start complaining about the actions of others towards them.

  348. #349 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    Jesus enemas?

    I was thinking putrefied flesh, but I’ve been watching too much Bones lately.

    Also: ew.

  349. #350 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Ah, Pete Rooke. The guy who writes about getting his guide for behavior from the Bible, and about rape as punishment for his daughter disobeying him. Well, offering up your virgin daughter for a gang rape is the action of a Godly man in the Bible, so really thinking your daughter is at fault for dressing in a short dress and low-cut top (even if you deny that feeling) is a Godly action. He should have brought her over to the rapist to really show his devotion to God.

  350. #351 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    c. You are – there’s no subtle way to frame this – an insufferably prissy hand-wringer.

    LOL

    disagree or not as to what Nisbet’s actual motivations are, I rather like that.

    …and no, I’d bet money he won’t post it.

  351. #352 Paul Burnett
    July 16, 2008

    Are you sure the crackers you’re receiving have been turned into Jesus?

    How can one tell? What objective scientific test would allow an observer to determine whether or not a given cracker has been consecrated or not?

  352. #353 bellerophon
    July 16, 2008

    Arguably the Catholic League and Foley have little to disagree. Reminds me of how Colonel Kurtz in Apocalypse Now says:

    “We train young men to drop fire on people. But their commanders won’t allow them to write “fuck” on their airplanes because it’s obscene!”

    Just remembered that out of the blue. Oh and by the way, PZ, remember to charge your cyberpistol mega5000xx! Be kindly reminded though, when they do it, it’s freedom of speech; when you do it, it’s hate crime. Mm-hm..

  353. #354 frog
    July 16, 2008

    PR: “Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.”

    Pete, I guess your deformed and perverse conscience has blinded you to the actually meaning of these lines.

    You’re not to repress your anger (and thereby release it with perverse rape fantasies and self-justifying familial abuse). You’re supposed to stop being angry.

    That latter is much harder. Doing the former is much, much worse than just expressing your anger — it turns you into a inhuman monster. It’s particularly bad when you fantasize that magic has released you from anger — since then you can’t actually judge your own anger without destroying your self fantasy.

    What an evil ideology. Get thee to a therapist before the damage you’re producing get worse.

  354. #355 Max Verret
    July 16, 2008

    Re: wrpd #301

    Your daughter’s attire might be considered a mitigating circumstance at trial. So, where the law would place blame, neither of us knows.

    You referred to me as a f*****g moron. In Christian charity, I cannot return the invictive.

  355. #356 JoJo
    July 16, 2008

    You referred to me as a f*****g moron. In Christian charity, I cannot return the invictive.

    Besides being a fucking moron, you’re a prissy prig.

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    July 16, 2008
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  357. #358 NAB
    July 16, 2008

    Desecracating a consacrated Host will call more courses upon you! To both you and those who will give it(them) to you.
    Those who are protesting are doing it out of reverance for their Lord, love for him, the Church and you. However you make the last choice.

    The Lamb of God takes away the sins of the humble but his wrath is upon the wicked ones. It is interesting why would anyone do violence to a lamb!

    He does not need anyone’s defense. He has conquered. To those who are frustrated, here are consoling words for them:

    “Weep not; lo, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has conquered, so that he can open the scroll and its seven seals.”

    May he have mercy on your soul.

    Christus vincit, Christus regnat, Christus imperat.
    Glory be to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit as it was in the beginning, is now, and forever Amen.

  358. #359 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    I can’t even draw a pistol freehand. How did you do that?!

  359. #360 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Desecracating a consacrated Host will call more courses upon you!

    PZ, will you be able to pick up an extra class per semester?

  360. #361 386sx
    July 16, 2008

    “Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.” Psalms 37:8

    Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 16, 2008 9:45 PM

    “The LORD shall laugh at him: for he seeth that his day is coming.”

    Does the LORD laugh at peple because he knows they’re gonna get tortured?

    “For yet a little while, and the wicked shall not be: yea, thou shalt diligently consider his place, and it shall not be.”

    Those are from Psalms 37 too! For yet a little while! 3000 years ago! No worries!

  361. #362 IceFarmer
    July 16, 2008

    HOLY SHIT! I’m afraid that evil PZ Meyers will come for other religious symbols next!

    BE WARNED MY PASTAFARIAN BRETHEREN! HIDE YOUR MERCATO AND ATLAS PASTA MACHINES, LEST THE ILK OF MYERS BREAK INTO YOUR HOMES TO ABSCOND WITH THE HOLY ITEMS THAT ALLOW US TO BRING FORTH THE NUTRITIONAL EMBODIMENT OF OUR LORD FSM!

    We too shall contact the authorities demanding more protection from these most vile of bigots! Perhaps we should arm ourselves for further protection! Stock up on flower and bullets now!

    Holy crap PZ, what a bunch of hipocritical f’ing nutjobs! How diluded and twisted are these fundies?

  362. #363 Canuck
    July 16, 2008

    “… and his followers”? WTF?? I’ve been an atheist since I was a teenager and I’m now 50. Just because I read this blog doesn’t mean I’m a “follower” of anything or anyone. I don’t think PZ seeks disciples, and I doubt that anyone here feels like someones follower. These Republican morons make me so glad that I don’t live in the US. Scary place since the fundies took over the administration.

    I do completely support the keeping of church and state separate, and the keeping of ID and creationist nonsense out of the classroom. And I do like watching the fireworks generated on this blog. Hell, I wasted a huge chunk of my weekend reading the bazillion comments in response to crackergate. The idiocy of humanity truly amazes me.

    I think there is one thing that atheists here and elsewhere fail to understand about true believers. When we criticize their beliefs, and ridicule things like transubstantiation, we just don’t have the capacity to absorb the fact that anyone could take that nonsense seriously, so we don’t get what the big deal is when we ridicule it. To us it’s probably not much more serious than saying their pet dog is ugly. They don’t have the investment in it to make it matter “that much”. But for these people, when you criticize their beliefs you may think it’s “just the beliefs”, but you are actually casually rejecting and ridiculing something on which they base their lives, and for the very religious, it’s the core of their existence. I’m pretty sure that we don’t grasp the gravity of the situation for them, because to us it sounds like batshit craziness. But they don’t separate the beliefs from themselves. It defines them. My inlaws are like this, and they could no more separate their beliefs from the core of their lives than they could fly to the moon. I think that on the subject of religion they are nuts, and they know I don’t believe what they do (and they know their daughter doesn’t either), but to keep some civility we just leave it alone. I’m not going to change them and they aren’t going to change me. You choose the battles you have a chance to win.

    I’m not suggesting that we stop pointing up the nonsense for what it is. It’s time for atheists to get out of the closet. But I am saying that if you toss darts at these people, you should expect the kind of reaction you saw. Religious wars haven’t started over a golf game gone wrong. They start because people are totally invested in the insanity of faith in some mythology or other (with a heaping spoonful of tribalism, usually). I’ve spent a lifetime debating these people. They wouldn’t know a logical argument if it bit them in the ass. It’s a waste of time. They believe, and that trumps rationality.

    One last comment. I agree with the people who have said that all the swearing and name calling is casting us in a bad light. I played rugby for many years, so it’s not like I have sensitive ears, but the vulgarity detracts from any points you are trying to make. And please stop using the word “cunt” as a pejorative. It happens to be a most lovely part of the female anatomy, the source of new life, the power center of the species. Give it a bit of respect. If you must stray from intelligent use of language to the arena of vulgarity, find more appropriate terms to degrade them. A cunt is a beautiful thing.

  363. #364 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    NAB,

    Please ask your god to bless you with greater typing/spelling skills and reading comprehension.

  364. #365 SteveM
    July 16, 2008

    I can’t even draw a pistol freehand. How did you do that?!

    google “ascii art”

    There are online programs that will convert photographs into ascii.

  365. #366 frog
    July 16, 2008

    llewelly: I have a brother who is convinced that some of them secretly smoke meth. ‘I mean, look at the Patriot act. Only meth can make you that fucking paranoid.’

    I read it was the prescription sleep “aids” a lot of politicians use so they can go days with out sleep and then catch up quickly — the combo of Ambien and Halcion, with some uppers to get them going again.

    Meth is for poor folks. The real shit you get with prescriptions.

  366. #367 raven
    July 16, 2008

    rooke the brain dead troll:

    We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour.

    “Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.” Psalms 37:8
    Posted by: Pete Rooke

    Chuck Kroll:

    Paul,
    what I would like to know is how did you even
    get a job at a collage.

    when you are obviously a moron.
    How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against
    Fags, and atheist like yourself.

    well sir, you don’t get to blaspheme and walk away from this.
    You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the
    children. Or you can get your brains beat in.

    I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in cunt

    Rooke is a delusional moron. His book doesn’t make Catholics any better than anyone else in the world, regardless of religion or lack thereof. Didn’t do Chuck any good, for example. The big problem with xianity today especially in the USA is not that xians are no better than anyone else, but that some of the sects and some of the members are far, far worse.

  367. #368 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    I wonder if anyone has ever assembled a complete Jebus out of the wafers.
    That would be one helluva an entree. I remember the artist who made one out of chocolate. Donawhore wasn’t too happy about that either.

    It reminds me of an Outer Lim deceased’s its episode called The Sin Eaters who eat food placed around the body to absorb the sins. The mother tricked her son to eat the food around her dead husband by starving him for days. It turned out the father had been an official Sin Eater and was full of everyone else’s sins. As he eats the kids eyes roll up into his head as he takes them all in. Now that’s what I call concentrated sin.

    And remember, it might Jebus you swallow, but who is it when it exits the lower orifice?

  368. #369 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    There are online programs that will convert photographs into ascii.

    And here I thought all this time that the ascii stuff was a work of typing genius. The world makes a little more sense now.

    But it’s still awesome. :)

  369. #370 qedpro
    July 16, 2008

    You can have my cyber pistol when you pry it from my cold dead cyber fingers!

  370. #371 JeffreyD
    July 16, 2008

    To all the xtians and catholics who spew hatred on this blog, or in emails to any of the participants in this sad little story of oppression. Try reading you own bible about love and what it means. I don’t have much truck with the Bible, and certainly not with Paul, but I like this piece from Corinthians, not sure how it got past the censors. Not given the reference numbers, assume you can read on your own.

    Oh, yeah, I know, satan can speak scripture, thanks in advance for that quote.

    “If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a resounding gong or a clanging cymbal. If I have the gift of prophecy and can fathom all mysteries and all knowledge, and if I have a faith that can move mountains, but have not love, I am nothing. If I give all I possess to the poor and surrender my body to the flames, but have not love, I gain nothing. Love is patient, love is kind. It does not envy, it does not boast, it is not proud. It is not rude, it is not self-seeking, it is not easily angered, it keeps no record of wrongs. Love does not delight in evil but rejoices with the truth. It always protects, always trusts, always hopes, always perseveres.”

    Pax Nabisco and off to bed.

  371. #372 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    #368 Sorry about the cut and paste error… here it is again:

    I wonder if anyone has ever assembled a complete Jebus out of the wafers. That would be one helluva an entree. I remember the artist who made one out of chocolate. Donawhore wasn’t too happy about that either.

    It reminds me of an Outer Limits episode called The Sin Eaters who eat food placed around the body to absorb the sins. The mother tricked her son to eat the food around her dead husband by starving him for days. It turned out the father had been an official Sin Eater and was full of everyone else’s sins. As he eats the kids eyes roll up into his head as he takes them all in. Now that’s what I call concentrated sin.

    And remember, it might Jebus you swallow, but who is it when it exits the lower orifice?

  372. #373 Badger3k
    July 16, 2008

    Wow. I am not sure why that idiot (Foley) would want to compare the Irish with jackasses, which both he and Donahue are, but…whatever rocks your boat.

    If I wanted to, I know that I could “score” a consecrated host without any problems, and causing no disruption or harm to any human. It’s not hard. I have no desire to to so, but it could be done quite easily.

    I think I understand the post at #358 – if you take a consecrated host, you will start to realize what BS the superstition is, your mind will open up, and you will take more courses and get educated.

    Sounds good to me.

  373. #374 SteveM
    July 16, 2008

    What puzzles me about this whole thing is that even if PZ posted a video of some wafers be “desecrated” somehow, why would anyone even believe that they had benn consecrated? Seems to me that if you are capable of believing in transubstantiation, you’d be capable of believing PZ is lying about the wafer being consecrated.

    And I also can’t understand how it can possibly be a criminal offense to destroy something that is supposed to be destroyed (by eating) anyway?

  374. #375 Jim1138
    July 16, 2008

    Pete Rook: Atheists the cause of starving children? The rich want and need the poor to give alms so they feel better. Maybe there are just too many people on the planet?

    We should give thanks to the Pope and his mindless followers for his absurd stance on contraception. Overpopulation is going to destroy our civilization by famine, pandemics, and war. The religious wingnuts will welcome it as the Rapture.

  375. #376 Everbleed
    July 16, 2008

    I’m down with Canuck. Figures a Canadian would have something sensible to say. Damn hosers, they’re always so rational and peaceful. And they do love their pussy.

  376. #377 Charlie
    July 16, 2008

    LIVE STREAMING SQUID DISECTION

    FYI. Just in case you’re interested, yaknow.

  377. #378 LanceR
    July 16, 2008

    Oustanding! Does it work to give Michelob Ultra any taste?

    Miracles aren’t enough for you? You have to ask the impossible, too?

    Sheesh. <grin>

  378. #379 Richard in Edmonton
    July 16, 2008

    Just to inject a little levity into the glum despair Catholics must feel here on this thread i present the following reminder of the value of the Catholic Faith.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U0kJHQpvgB8

  379. #380 Diane
    July 16, 2008

    There is absolutely nothing you can do to the Body of Christ. There is nothing that could be worse than what He suffered during His Passion and what He continues to suffer today at the hands of His children. What you do, you do out of vanity and ignorance. Far more troubling to me are the persons who have provided you with the Host – especially if they call themselves Catholic. Far more troubling to me are those Catholics who receive the Body and Blood unworthily either knowingly or unknowingly. Your stunt is no more than satan’s temptation of Christ to test God. Your stunt is no more than the shouts of the crowd who cried out, “He saved others; himself he cannot save.” You offer nothing new or original. However, Christ can save even you. I most sincerely forgive you and pray for your soul. Don’t worry, I know you don’t believe. I do. That is enough.

    Pax vobiscum,
    Diane

  380. #381 craig
    July 16, 2008

    “Desecracating a consacrated Host will call more courses upon you!”

    Wait… you mean if we don’t properly and reverently eat the jesus cookie, god’s gonna keep coming back until we do? How many courses? Is the main course lasagna?

    Because if I can get lasagna by first passing up the jesus cracker and the jesus salad, that’s what I’m gonna do!

  381. #382 spurge
    July 16, 2008

    “There is absolutely nothing you can do to the Body of Christ. There is nothing that could be worse than what He suffered during His Passion and what He continues to suffer today at the hands of His children.”

    Then why are your panties in a bunch?

  382. #383 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    I wonder if anyone has ever assembled a complete Jebus out of the wafers.

    I had to go digging for the quote, but I found it!

    Eddie Izzard:
    “All right: eat this cheese it is my central nervous system, all right? All right, all right, listen to this: eat these chicken drumsticks, they are my legs. Eat these carrots, they are my arms. Eat this tomato it is my head. And eat these oysters, they are my kneecaps.”

    “If you do that, dad, your holy communion is going to have priests going round with lots of trays going, ‘Who ordered the body of Christ, then?’ “

  383. #384 Canuck
    July 16, 2008

    @ Everbleed #376

    Thanks. Our national animal is the beaver. The “pussy lovin’ ” just comes naturally.

  384. #385 Pete Rooke
    July 16, 2008

    PZ Myers’ lack of professional ethics has become so flagrant that it merits your complete attention. First things first: PZ has certainly never given evidence of thinking extensively. Or at all, for that matter on the subject of religion. He insults that which he fails to understand preferring vulgar snarks to meaningful and substantive debate. No doubt there will be no apology forthcoming despite eventual censure at the hands of UMM.

    PZ ignores the most basic ground rule of debate. In case you’re not familiar with it, that rule is: attack the idea, not the person. His insults represent the most socially inept form of moral turpitude conceivable. And judging from the comments although the irascible wonks are relatively small in number compared to the general population, they are increasing in size and fervor.

    PZ engages in pietistic babble that nauseates even some of my more religious friends. In short he worships at the alter of Darwinism (or Scientism – call it what you will). We must prevent PZ’s sinister convictions from spreading like a malignant tumor.

    PZ’s patsies are too lazy to teach deranged windbags about tolerance. They just want to sit back, fasten their mouths on the public teats, and casually forget that PZ maintains wholly offensive and abusive positions on the value and place of religion.

    PZ fails to mention that this is not Nazi Germany or Soviet Russia (or any other atheistic regime), where the state would be eager to condition the public or, more precisely, brainwash the public, into believing that he has his moral compass in tact. Not yet, at least. But he twists every argument into some sort of struggle between two parties. PZ unvaryingly constitutes the underdog party, which is what he claims gives him the right to expose and neutralize his enemies rather than sit at the same table and negotiate. The facts are in: There is no question that if Prof. PZ Myers opened up his mealymouthed mind just a teeny-weeny little bit, maybe he could understand that.

  385. #386 Anonymous
    July 16, 2008

    #380 Diane:

    Do you realize that you are a whackaloon?

  386. #387 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    . I most sincerely forgive you and pray for your soul.

    And a hearty “Fuck you” right back atcha

  387. #388 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    I think there is one thing that atheists here and elsewhere fail to understand about true believers. When we criticize their beliefs, and ridicule things like transubstantiation, we just don’t have the capacity to absorb the fact that anyone could take that nonsense seriously, so we don’t get what the big deal is when we ridicule it.

    Speak for yourself. Oh, wait, you’re the great one who understands all this but is explaining it to all us ignorant atheists who don’t. Sorry, your grand pomposity, but you’re off target.

  388. #389 C
    July 16, 2008

    Max,

    ok. You think PZ has at least partial blame for the woman being fired. You might be right. But do you genuinely believe that he has greater blame than her husband? The guy who write a death threat using his wife’s account? I really need to know.

  389. #390 David Carson
    July 16, 2008

    Long time lurker, first time poster.
    Be gentle.

    Not sure if this the right place to post my suggestion. And I apologize in advance if someone else has offered this (I think I’ve only read 3-4000 of the 5-6000 post, over a dozen threads, on this topic).

    I think I have a unique way of dealing with the crackers that P-Zed (sorry..Canadianism) has received. And that is to go overboard on the “respect.”

    Set a place at the table for the cracker.
    Take it to the beach (with some Barbie-sized sunglasses).
    Or the zoo, or anywhere you go on vacation.
    Bring it to work and give it its own chair and computer (but not access to your own email account).
    Bring it shopping, and to the park.
    Take it for a walk around the block.
    Or the movies (is Expelled still playing?)
    Tuck it in at night.

    And, of course, videotape the whole thing and post it on youtube.

    It could be a unique take on those garden gnomes that get taken on around-the-world trips ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Travelling_gnome_prank ).

    I can’t see how there can be a complaint if the whole thing is done with a serious mien.
    Besides I’m sure jesus would like to see a bit of the world outside of the Middle East.

    David

  390. #391 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    @Pete Rooke

    [blah blah sin lies hypocrisy anger hatred putrescence blah blah blah]

  391. #392 Ken Cope
    July 16, 2008

    It is interesting why would anyone do violence to a lamb!

    There’s lots of good eatin’ on them things.

    There’s the priest who figured out he gets to eat the burnt offerings once the seekers have left the place he’s claimed is holy.

    Once, Abraham was convinced by the voice in his head he had to gut his own son Isaac out on Highway 61, but figured the voice in his head wasn’t heartless enough to make him go through with it fer shursies, so, after conferring with another voice in his head, decided it was OK for him to kill a helpless widdle lamb instead.

    Ritual human sacrifice. It’s not just for breakfast anymore!

    NAB worships a bloodthirsty Asshole who says lambs are for slaughtering, doing the bidding of priests and P.R. flacks who figure sheep are for shearing.

    Never give a seeker an even break.

  392. #393 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    We must prevent PZ’s sinister convictions from spreading like a malignant tumor.

    Because don’t forget:

    1) PZ has the power to force people to read his blog.

    2) The internet is serious business.

  393. #394 foxfire
    July 16, 2008

    OH NOES! Thomas Foley of Virginia wants to deny PZ his second amendment right to own a cyberpistol? The horror…..

    This whole crackergate non-issue is beyond belief.

    IT’S A FRELLING CRACKER.

  394. #395 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    I know you don’t believe. I do.

    In a fairy tale. But obviously it’s not enough for you, else you wouldn’t be blabbering here.

  395. #396 Canuck
    July 16, 2008

    And look at the gift. I try to make a point and along comes Pete Rooke at #385 to corroborate it. He shows you clearly that he hasn’t caught, much less digested, a single point made in any rational argument posted in the 4000+ Crackergate comments. He says “we don’t think”, “we don’t understand”, blah, blah, blah, and more inanities.

    Truth is HE BELIEVES and that makes him blind to anything that doesn’t line up with his belief. We might as well bark at him like a dog. He’s not listening. He’s not hearing. Save your typing fingers. I am. I’m out of here to go find the wife and see if there’s some of that Canadian symbol on offer. :-)

  396. #397 Mark B
    July 16, 2008

    You know, Cyberweapons of all sorts can be dangerous. Why just yesterday, I was RickRolled. And you know how dangerous that be!!

    Well, maybe not dangerous, but annoying.

  397. #398 mandydax
    July 16, 2008

    Yeah, Sharon, SteveM’s right. Google ascii art pistol and the first result had a whole page of them. That one was stylish, though.

    Oh, how about this? Instead of a Cyberpistol, how about a Cyberknife? Not as clumsy or random as a Cyberpistol; an elegant weapon for a more civilized age.
    http://www.cksociety.org/

  398. #399 craig
    July 16, 2008

    Anyone who argues that the writer of an unsolicited email has some right to anonymity is an idiot.

    Anyone who argues that the writer of an unsolicited email that contains a death threat has some right to anonymity and who comes to the defense of the threatener is an immoral idiot.

  399. #400 raven
    July 16, 2008

    Rooke is crazy and just babbling without worrying about whether it makes sense or not. Just reposting his contradictory nonsense that shows he isn’t in contact with reality. Not going to spend any more time with the mentally ill.

    rooke the brain dead troll:
    We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour.

    “Cease from anger, and forsake wrath: fret not thyself in any wise to do evil.” Psalms 37:8
    Posted by: Pete Rooke

    Chuck Kroll:
    Paul,
    what I would like to know is how did you even
    get a job at a collage.

    when you are obviously a moron.
    How would you feel if nice folks starting ranting against
    Fags, and atheist like yourself.

    well sir, you don’t get to blaspheme and walk away from this.
    You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the
    children. Or you can get your brains beat in.

    I give you till the first of the month, get that resignation in cunt

    Rooke is a delusional moron. His book doesn’t make Catholics any better than anyone else in the world, regardless of religion or lack thereof. Didn’t do Chuck any good, for example. The big problem with xianity today especially in the USA is not that xians are no better than anyone else, but that some of the sects and some of the members are far, far worse.

  400. #401 qedpro
    July 16, 2008

    Diane,
    Instead of your self-righteous condescending prayers for us, pray for something useful.

    Here’s a good one to pray for. The catholic church is an international organization that has systematically aided and abetted the rape of children for centuries.
    Why don’t you pray no more children be raped by your leaders. I know that’s a tall order, but don’t you agree its so much more useful.

    I can’t speak for atheists but I know that I would gladly burn for eternity if that prayer was answered.

    Have a nice day and remember pray for the children.
    Everytime you pray for us, a child is raped because you wanted to be a self-righteous condescending bitch.

  401. #402 spurge
    July 16, 2008

    Better RickRolled than Goatsed.

  402. #403 Longstreet63
    July 16, 2008

    “It is interesting why would anyone do violence to a lamb!”

    Question is: Does Jesus go well with mint sauce?

    (Because every mention of lamb must be followed by one of mint sauce)

  403. #404 Ken Cope
    July 16, 2008

    RickRolled?
    Paradise.
    Why, in our day, we were goatsed and grateful for it!

  404. #405 Reynold Hall
    July 16, 2008

    Those stupid idiots are repeating history; they hate Myers because he’s “threatened” to “desecrate” a wafer.

    That was one of the charges that christian anti-semites used to level against Jews:

    Desecration of the Host – Anti-Semitic claim of medieval Christians that Jews would steal consecrated host wafers and desecrate them by stabbing them to make them bleed. According to the Catholic doctrine of transubstantiation, which became dogma at that time, a consecrated host wafer becomes the flesh of Jesus Christ. It was thus believed that Jews would steal and desecrate these wafers to reenact the crucifixion of Christ. In numerous cases Jews were executed in horrible ways for this imaginary “crime.” In the 19th century it was shown that the red color often found on the wafers was due to a fungus.

  405. #406 Mark B
    July 16, 2008

    Better RickRolled than Goatsed.

    Words to live by.

  406. #407 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    “… If you do that, dad, your holy communion is going to have priests going round with lots of trays going, ‘Who ordered the body of Christ, then?’ ”
    Posted by: Sharon | July 16, 2008 10:18 PM

    I’ve ordered this before on an earlier thread but you have worked up my appetite so…

    One Big Jesus with cheese to go please, easy on the nails and hold the cross.

  407. #408 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Pete Rooke wrote:

    PZ ignores the most basic ground rule of debate. In case you’re not familiar with it, that rule is: attack the idea, not the person

    Er, what ‘person’ did PZ attack? Funny, I’ve been reading these posts since the beginning and at no point has he advocated attacking any ‘person’.

    Ideas about beliefs, on the other hand – believing in a god, believing in magic, believing that a priest can perform magic to turn a cracker into god, believing that it’s okay to make threats against someone who doesn’t follow a set of rules that apply only to people who choose to adhere to them (as opposed to laws that apply to everyone) – he has attacked.

  408. #409 Pete Rooke
    July 16, 2008

    @ Raven (I understand that is the bird of choice for those engaged in occult practices)

    I agree with you that there is definitely a continuum of sorts and some religious groups are far worse than others.
    I place militant atheists near the bottom.

  409. #410 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    And here I thought all this time that the ascii stuff was a work of typing genius. The world makes a little more sense now.

    Welcome, traveler from the 19th century.

  410. #411 JAM
    July 16, 2008

    You are a dangerous man, PZ. ;)

  411. #412 spurge
    July 16, 2008

    “Never Gonna Give You Up”

    Now I have that damn song in my head.

  412. #413 BobC
    July 16, 2008

    #380: “Your stunt is no more than satan’s temptation of Christ to test God.”

    Lots of Catholic wackos been coming here lately.

    Diane, you believe in Mr. Satan? This is why Catholics are ridiculed. They blindly believe everything the pope tells them to believe. If the pope says it’s OK, there is no belief too idiotic for a Catholic.

    Diane, have you ever considered the possibility that Satan, magical crackers, the Resurrection, and the other Catholic miracles, are just made up stories and inventions? Have you ever once in your life used your brain to think for yourself? Have you ever had an original thought or an original idea? Probably not. Thinking is a sin, so why risk torture in hell from your loving God.

  413. #414 Ken Cope
    July 16, 2008

    One Big Jesus with cheese to go please, easy on the nails and hold the cross.

    When Will Jesus Bring the Pork Chops?

  414. #415 Patrick O
    July 16, 2008

    He’s Right – the horror the horror

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2YpoiFddXs

  415. #416 craig
    July 16, 2008

    “I agree with you that there is definitely a continuum of sorts and some religious groups are far worse than others.
    I place militant atheists near the bottom.”

    That would be because you’re a shithead.

    Atheists shooting abortion protesters? Doesn’t happen. Atheists suicide bombing non-atheists? Doesn’t happen.
    Atheists issuing death threats to non-atheists over a fucking cracker? Doesn’t happen.

  416. #417 spurge
    July 16, 2008

    “I place militant atheists near the bottom.”

    Quite so. They do so many evil things.

    Flying planes into buildings, blowing up federal buildings and abortion clinics.

    Rioting over cartoons and teddy bears.

    Sending death threats over a cracker.

    Oh wait…..

    pete, you are a moron.

  417. #418 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    “Never Gonna Give You Up”
    Now I have that damn song in my head

    Let’s just hope Iran never gets that kind of technology.

    IranRick’s in ur heads, rollin ur minds.

  418. #419 Longstreet63
    July 16, 2008

    “One Big Jesus with cheese to go please, easy on the nails and hold the cross.”

    Can I get the Blissful Meal? It comes with Crucifix Fries and a 42-ounce Diet Christ.

  419. #420 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    Welcome, traveler from the 19th century.

    Don’t tell people that! Now they’ll want to know where I stashed my time machine!

  420. #421 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    I place militant atheists near the bottom.

    We so care.

    Can you pause for even one moment to count up the number of commands from your “moral text” that you’re violating?

  421. #422 Pete Rooke
    July 16, 2008

    I take it you missed the 20th century horrors then craig. Not heard of Mao, Stalin or Nazi Germany.

  422. #423 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Catholic readers, don’t you go listening to BobC – all that talk about ‘thinking’, well that’s just Satan talking, trying to do to you what he did to Eve with the fruit from the tree of ‘knowledge’. That’s the dead giveaway – ‘knowledge’. A good christian shouldn’t want ‘knowledge’. Faith and the bible – that’s better than nasty ‘knowledge’.

    Read your bibles! Don’t think for yourselves! Your church leaders will make your decisions for you!

  423. #424 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Nazi Germany

    under Catholic Hitler?

  424. #425 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    I take it you missed the 20th century horrors then craig. Not heard of Mao, Stalin or Nazi Germany.

    We’ve all heard it here, repeatedly, and refuted it, repeatedly, trollbreath. What you’re too stupid to understand is that, when you write this sort of thing, you simply establish that you’re stupid, ignorant, illiterate, unread …

  425. #426 craig
    July 16, 2008

    “In a fairy tale. But obviously it’s not enough for you, else you wouldn’t be blabbering here.”

    Yep.
    Any time someone takes time out of their day to seek out people who don’t believe in their fairy tale in order to proclaim how much they believe in their fairy tale, it’s their doubts talking.

  426. #427 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    #390Posted by: David Carson | July 16, 2008 10:22 PM

    David’s post reminds of high school where they would make the young women carry around a 10 lb bag of sugar for a month as a surrogate baby to teach them the importance abstinence. Problem was that too many of them had sex right in front of the bag of sugar and still hadn’t been told about the virtues of birth control.

  427. #428 Ken Cope
    July 16, 2008

    I take it you missed the 20th century horrors then craig. Not heard of Mao, Stalin or Nazi Germany.

    What? God is dead? Quick, let’s ban Darwin and establish Lysenkoism. Adolf, nice Gott mit uns belt buckle.

  428. #429 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    Not heard of Mao, Stalin or Nazi Germany.

    *sigh*

    so, so tired of the mental midgets with their Darwin->Hitler meme.

    James Kennedy is DEAD.

    get a fucking clue already.

    just because it needs to be here:

    http://www.expelledexposed.com/

  429. #430 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Where’s that post with all those photos of Catholic priests attending Nazi rallies and giving the Nazi salute? I think it was maybe Damian or JeffreyD who posted it.

  430. #431 Zeno
    July 16, 2008

    As ignorant of history (and several other things) as he is, Pete Rooke want to blame Nazi Germany on atheists. I’m sure that’s why the belts on their uniforms said “Gott mit uns.” It’s funny and sad at the same time!

    Hey, did you hear the one about Hitler being Catholic? (Not a particularly good one, I admit, but Mao and Stalin were pretty lousy atheists, too.)

  431. #432 DaveL
    July 16, 2008

    There is absolutely nothing you can do to the Body of Christ.

    I do believe that is entirely the point. There is nothing PZ Meyers can do to the body of Christ because he is not in posession of it. All he has are some bread wafers.

    Sure, you may believe this bread is actually the body of a god, but that is incredibly stupid. It may shock you that someone could stand up and state flat out how incredibly stupid this belief is, but that just illustrates how important it is to say it. A stupid idea that cannot be questioned is an unbelievably dangerous thing to any society that fancies itself free.

  432. #433 craig
    July 16, 2008

    What’s with these Popes who were in the Hitler youth?

  433. #434 spurge
    July 16, 2008
  434. #435 Jim1138
    July 16, 2008

    Diane @380 Do you ever get out of the house? Do your male relatives keep you shrouded in a burka? Most people don’t believe in that version of crap.

  435. #436 Pete Rooke
    July 16, 2008

    Joseph Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: “The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay.”

    According to historian Michael Rissmann young Adolf was influenced in school by Pan-Germanism and Darwinism and began to reject the Church and Catholicism, receiving Confirmation only unwillingly. A boyhood friend reports that after Hitler had left home, he never attended Mass or received the Sacraments.[3] Georg Ritter von Schönerer’s writings and the written legacy of his Pan-German Away from Rome! movement, which agitated against the Roman Catholic Church at the end of the 19th century, may have influenced the young Adolf Hitler.[4]

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

  436. #437 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Diane @380 Do you ever get out of the house?

    Does she isolate herself when menstruating until she’s been certified “clean”?

  437. #438 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    I saved the link TM

    http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/priests-salute.jpg

    Priests giving the Hitler salute

    Priests giving the Hitler salute at a Catholic youth rally in the Berlin-Neukolln stadium in August 1933.

    now, why does that ring a bell…

    catholicism and authoritarianism, like peanut butter and chocolate.

  438. #439 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

    and if we continue quoting the wiki article instead of stopping there, we get these quotes:

    Hitler claimed that during the time he served in World War I, he had a religious awakening; specifically when he was in the hospital, temporarily blinded from an enemy gas attack in October 1918. This religious awakening may be attributed to a hallucination, possibly induced by a Dr. Forster.[5] Another alleged incident was that a mysterious voice told Hitler to leave a crowded trench during a minor barrage. Moments after he left the area, a shell fell on that particular spot. Hitler saw this experience as a message that made him believe that he was a uniquely illuminated individual who had a special task to fulfill.

    At some point, people just have to agree that Hitler was seriously messed up in the head, and stop invoking Godwin’s Law.

  439. #440 Miami
    July 16, 2008

    PZ is looking for media attention, nothing more nothing less:

    “LOOK AT ME – IM AN ASSHOLE AT A SECOND RATE THINKER AT A SECOND RATE COLLEGE WITH NO MEDIA RECOGNITION!”

    PZ – you are not Dawkins or Hitchens…..or even Dennet.

    The rest of you atheists on here look like assholes, too.

    So, congrats to all of you atheist sheep-thinkers and your attention whore “professor!”

  440. #441 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    I take it you missed the 20th century horrors then craig. Not heard of Mao, Stalin or Nazi Germany.

    Just to recapture context for a moment, you lying sack of pus, but by “militant atheists” you were referring to people here, none of whom had anything to do with those things. So at the very least you should distinguish between “militant” in dictionary sense 1, “vigorously active and aggressive”, and in dictionary sense 2, “engaged in warfare; fighting”. But, being the dishonest immoral low filth that you are, you won’t.

  441. #442 Ron Sullivan
    July 16, 2008

    Hey, look, everybody! I’m the Ron with tits and a surname! And not in Houston!

    Just thought I’d make that clear first.

    I can’t believe no one here has figured it out yet, from Mr. Foley’s* big clue.

    The Repubs are expecting a surprise celebrity appearance by God Him/Her/Crackerself! Obviously, their security has to be very very good for the convention. Can’t run the risk of Jesus’ being (at this coinage every knee should bend) crackerjacked.

    *As I’m a used nurse, I think “catheter” every time I see the name “Foley.” If that other braying mackerelsnapper wants free-association to be a criterion for job fitness, he’d better change his name or at least deflate his balloon.

  442. #443 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Posted by: Miami | July 16, 2008 10:56 PM

    blah blah blah blah

  443. #444 Norman Doering
    July 16, 2008

    Nabacanazer wrote:

    It is interesting why would anyone do violence to a lamb!

    The man has obviously never had a good gyros.

  444. #445 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler's_religious_beliefs

    somehow, I rather think you might have missed reading the rest of that article, plus you might want to check the discussion page.

    However, as long as you insist on quotemining:

    According to Albert Speer Hitler remained a member in good standing of the Catholic church until his suicide

  445. #446 Aerik
    July 16, 2008

    Why are there jesus wafers floating around the republican national convention?

  446. #447 Dan
    July 16, 2008

    Cyberpistol?? Those fools! They should know that it is instead your cyberfrisbee (ala Tron) that should be feared. It can ricochet!

  447. #448 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    The man has obviously never had a good gyros.

    or the lamb lawand here

  448. #449 wrpd
    July 16, 2008

    My apologies to Max.

  449. #450 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    Why are there jesus wafers floating around the republican national convention?

    It’s like the balloons at a graduation ceremony. Don’t let Jesus hit the ground, that’s a party foul.

  450. #451 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    Joseph Goebbels notes in a diary entry in 1939: “The Führer is deeply religious, but deeply anti-Christian. He regards Christianity as a symptom of decay.”

    But that doesn’t support your point, fuckhead, which was about militant atheists doing evil things.

    And you want respect? Is there any Catholic reading here who thinks that this shithead Rooke deserves that?

  451. #452 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    It’s like the balloons at a graduation ceremony. Don’t let Jesus hit the ground, that’s a party foul.

    Is it like letting the flag hit the ground?

    are we supposed to burn them or bury them 13 feet underground?

  452. #453 David
    July 16, 2008

    Wow. You folks are appallingly full of yourselves. No wonder there is no room for intelligent discussion here.

    One commenter after another has scorned the religious for their supposed irrationality, yet not one of the comments I’ve read has been reasonable – save, actually, those written by theists. You aren’t reasonable at all! For Christ’s sake, you all rival the apes with your childlike stupidity! You’re venomous, hateful, and unreasonable. You consider for not one moment the point your chosen opponents are making. You will not even concede that your chosen opponents – i.e., the commenting theists – are capable of making worthwhile points. All I see here are many vitriolic and hypocritical atheists excusing themselves from rational discussion by ridiculing their Great Enemy. Impressive, really!

    I am a Catholic, and although my perennial frustration with this religion is driving me away from it, I never want to become like any of you. All I have learned here is that an atheist is a self-impressed pig. Bravo.

  453. #454 Jenny
    July 16, 2008

    I wonder if you can take your cyberpistol into Washington DC now?

  454. #455 spurge
    July 16, 2008

    A new place to go for lunch!

    Thanks MAJeff

  455. #456 Sharon
    July 16, 2008

    Is it like letting the flag hit the ground?

    are we supposed to burn them or bury them 13 feet underground?

    Well, if you wait 3 days and then burn them you can say they rose again and went to heaven.

  456. #457 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    are we supposed to burn them or bury them 13 feet underground?

    That depends, is Jesse Helms wrapped in it?

  457. #458 John Morales
    July 16, 2008

    @436: You mean you take the writings of the Nazi propaganda minister over a bunch of actual photographs?

    Wow.

  458. #459 Mark B
    July 16, 2008

    For Christ’s sake, you all rival the apes with your childlike stupidity!

    Well, we are apes, after all. Even you. Realizing that is a nice first step on the road to rationality.

  459. #460 Zetetic
    July 16, 2008

    Wow. Just when I thought it couldn’t get any crazier. These Catholics just don’t realize how nutty this is making them look, do they?

    I think PZ’s “followers” (someone needs to make t-shirts and membership cards now) need to stay far away from this RNC. If even one person were to make a scene there it’ll only seem to justify the hysteria and need for extra security in the minds of some. Stay away and they look like the big idiots they are.

    …Or they just say that the extra security measures obviously worked and frightened everyone away. Dammit, we can’t win for losing. Ah, well. Still better to take the high road.

  460. #461 spurge
    July 16, 2008

    If I may.

    Posted by: David | July 16, 2008 11:05 PM

    Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah

  461. #462 MAJeff, OM
    July 16, 2008

    A new place to go for lunch!
    Thanks MAJeff

    I don’t know if they do lunch. If you’re going for dinner MAKE RESERVATIONS!!!

    The lamb is wonderful. The pumpkin, though–that’s some amazing shit (and get it without the meat sauce, trust me). The bucklawa actually made me cry.

    (I think it’s actually owned by members of the Karzai family)

  462. #463 spurge
    July 16, 2008

    No Lunch?

    Then after work it shall be.

  463. #464 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    No wonder there is no room for intelligent discussion here.

    There’s plenty of intelligent discussion when troll filth like you and Pete aren’t around.

  464. #465 Numad
    July 16, 2008

    This is like the Trollolympics.

  465. #466 Ron in Houston
    July 16, 2008

    Ron Sullivan

    Huh? You’re nuts. I suppose I might have a case of man boobs, but I wouldn’t call them tits.

    Not in Houston? Are you nuts. Here, I’ll act like a bona fide redneck. Come down here and I’ll put a boot in your ass.

    Want me to quote more Toby Keith?

    You’re as delusional as the people you criticize.

  466. #467 John Morales
    July 16, 2008

    David @453, you have read the 10000 odd comments in the various threads, then, that you pass judgement?

    No, I thought not.

  467. #468 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    yet not one of the comments I’ve read has been reasonable – save, actually, those written by theists.

    you mean like the one your theist buddy Kroll wrote?

    well sir, you don’t get to blaspheme and walk away from this. You have two choices my fucked up friend, first you can quit your job for the good of the children. Or you can get your brains beat in. I give you till the first of the month,

    get that resignation in cunt

  468. #469 spurge
    July 16, 2008

    “Want me to quote more Toby Keith?”

    No thanks.

    Hearing anything more by that jingoistic moron is unnecessary.

  469. #470 Longstreet63
    July 16, 2008

    David @453

    “I am a Catholic, and although my perennial frustration with this religion is driving me away from it, I never want to become like any of you.”

    Happily, David, as an atheist, you don’t have to.

    There are no dogma, doctrines or Popes. All you have to do is lose your belief. Sounds kinda like you already have.

    Don’t worry. Lots of us go through a period where we recognize that we aren’t buying it any more, but aren’t quite ready to embrace the ‘A’ Word. That’s okay. Nobody has the right to tell you how to act. Only you get to decide.

    And the rest of us will treat you accordingly, as appropriate. Don’t expect that from the still-religious, though.

  470. #471 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    You consider for not one moment the point your chosen opponents are making.

    In fact, each of the points made by Pete Rooke and scum like him have been considered and, if appropriate rebutted.

    You will not even concede that your chosen opponents – i.e., the commenting theists – are capable of making worthwhile points.

    Au contraire, they are certainly capable of it, which makes them culpable when they fail to do so.

  471. #472 mayhempix
    July 16, 2008

    “So, congrats to all of you atheist sheep-thinkers…”
    Posted by: Miami | July 16, 2008 10:56 PM

    Gee… from Florida… what a surprise.

    Someone needs to explain to Miami that the flock of sheep thing is about christians, not atheists.

  472. #473 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    David, #453, wrote:

    You consider for not one moment the point your chosen opponents are making.

    They’re making the point that they believe their magic ceremony literally turns a cracker into god, and that the magic god-cracker is more important than civil liberties and life.

    Which should not be a point anyone even vaguely rational should consider.

    All I have learned here is that an atheist is a self-impressed pig.

    That an atheist may be a self-impressed pig has nothing to do with atheism. One does not become an atheist in order to become a nice person. One becomes an atheist when one realises there is/are no god/s – there are no other conditions.

  473. #474 Dustin
    July 16, 2008

    Re: More Hitler shit from the Catholic trolls.
    For a good time, point your url here:
    http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler
    Then open up your browser’s find feature, and search for Christianity. Then hit “next”, “next”, “next”, “next”,….

    You’ll get tired of reading quotes before you run out of them.

  474. #475 inkadu
    July 16, 2008

    Hi, David.

    It’s rather shocking to talk to people who think your ideas are very, very silly, isn’t it?

    I think if you take a step back, that is what this is whole thing is about. Can we say that your ideas are stupid? Can we say it loudly? Can we say it in ways that bother you? Or is the idea of offending religious ideas so horrific that people who pocket communion wafers should be expelled from school, professors who support such students should be fired, and that anyone who makes death threats against the anti-religious should be giving a free pass?

    Because underneath all the sturm and drang, that’s really what this is about. I, and I think most of PZ’s supporters (and maybe even some non-supporters), are quite happy to support your right to call PZ whatever you want; we just ask for the same right to call your ideas completely stupid without being arrested, fired, or threatened with violence. That’s it. That’s all this is about. If fundamentalistists understood how a free society worked, none of this would be an issue.

  475. #476 Zetetic
    July 16, 2008

    Ok, who brought up the Nazis first?

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_law

  476. #477 Ken Cope
    July 16, 2008

    “I am a Catholic, and although my perennial frustration with this religion is driving me away from it, I never want to become like any of you.”

    If the Catholic Church leaves you frustrated, and you don’t want to become like any of us, you may have to learn how to think for yourself. Of course, that isn’t the way to be offered a loving cup and the opportunity to sing Gabba Gabba with the rest of us freaks, but hey, whatever blows yer skirt up, pal.

  477. #478 Dustin
    July 16, 2008

    I do not give a peanut-ridden shit about Godwin or his stupid law.

  478. #479 John Morales
    July 16, 2008

    Ron in Houston, thank you so much for informing me that you have man-boobs and consider yourself a redneck.

    I wouldn’t want to get the wrong impression of you, nossir!

  479. #480 dkew
    July 16, 2008

    Verret:
    What the hell is “breath-beating”?
    Rooke:

    PZ has certainly never given evidence of thinking extensively. Or at all, for that matter on the subject of religion. He insults that which he fails to understand preferring vulgar snarks to meaningful and substantive debate. No doubt there will be no apology forthcoming despite eventual censure at the hands of UMM.

    PZ ignores the most basic ground rule of debate. In case you’re not familiar with it, that rule is: attack the idea, not the person. His insults represent the most socially inept form of moral turpitude conceivable. And judging from the comments although the irascible wonks are relatively small in number compared to the general population, they are increasing in size and fervor.

    PZ engages in pietistic babble that nauseates even some of my more religious friends. In short he worships at the alter of Darwinism (or Scientism – call it what you will). We must prevent PZ’s sinister convictions from spreading like a malignant tumor.

    What would there be to apologize for? Crackergate started when a Catholic student had his life threatened for not eating a cracker immediately, and PZ pointed out the idiocy of transubstantiation and treating the cracker as important. Who did PZ insult, other than the gasbag Donohue?

    the most socially inept form of moral turpitude conceivable?

    Really? More than priestly child molesting and cover ups? Crackers cannot be insulted.
    What is there to debate? The atheist position has been spelled out clearly on this blog for years – it’s hardly a surprise that most of us think all gods are imaginary, and most religious practices stupid. You are not required to read it.

    pietistic babble … sinister convictions … spreading like a malignant tumor

    Sounds like the pot calling the magnifying glass black.

  480. #481 Neural T
    July 16, 2008

    Christ, have we hit Godwin’s Law already?

  481. #483 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Oh, everyone knows all those Hitler quotes are made up by the Evil Atheist Conspiracy™.

    The atheists are so clever they managed to infiltrate Germany – a predominately Christian country, with a similar proportion of Christians in the government and military – and make them do those horrible things against their will. They obviously did the same with Italy (a predominately Catholic country) who were their allies – and the Vatican (all Catholic – presumably), since they fully supported Hitler at the time.

    This, of course, had nothing to do with historical German antisemitism of the sort espoused by Luther and supported by other branches of Christianity.

  482. #484 arensb
    July 16, 2008

    I find it oddly amusing that today, Archie McPhee introduced the Angry Mob Play Set. If you put little GOP stickers on the Glow-in-the-Dark Flesh-Eating Zombie Play Set, you can have your very own Republican convention diorama in your living room.

  483. #485 Ron in Houston
    July 16, 2008

    John Morales

    Yep. Texan with “man boobs” and at least by inheritance a redneck.

    I’m also an atheist.

    I make a fine poster child don’t I? Maybe PZ and I can make a poster.

    Come on PZ? What you don’t want to be associated with a Texas redneck with man boobs? WTF? I thought you people were freethinkers?

  484. #486 David Carson
    July 16, 2008

    re: #427 Posted by: mayhempix | July 16, 2008 10:45 PM

    Good point. I guess satire is sometimes a little too subtle.
    Sometimes one may need to be metaphorically whupped upside the head with that bag of sugar.

    Still, Travels with your host, Jesus, or Putting on the Ritz or From Crackers to Krakatoa might be a funny little travelogue.
    David

    P.S. Momentarily taken aback when I saw the comments directed at the other David.
    No relation!

  485. #487 inkadu
    July 16, 2008

    Given the complicity of the church in the Holocaust, I’d think Catholics would stay well clear of that entire discussion.

    It reminds me of conservatives who like to trot out Reagans resolution of the Iranian Hostage Crisis, confident in the fact that only 3% of the American public will remember that the Reagan administration went on to sell weapons to the Ayatollah.

  486. #488 spam spam bacon spam
    July 16, 2008

    let me get this straight…

    They serve COOKIES in church?

    WTF? I would’ve been there years ago if I’d have known that…

    Do they have chocolate chips? I love chocolate chip cookies. Also sugar cookies, and oatmeal cookies, but not the hard kind…they gotta be soft and squishy…real fresh.

    Can Melanie Kroll bring her kids to church and fill everybody up on cookies?

  487. #489 Rob H
    July 16, 2008

    So this has most likely been said by atheists at some point in *ahem* discussions like these but I think it’s an important point: It does not matter if you think all atheists are arrogant pigs and all people of faith are pure and humble, you cannot conclude anything about their arguments from how well you like someone.

    Think PZ was an insensitive jerk? Fine but that has nothing to do with atheism as a philosophy. Think Christopher Hitchens is a drunkard with silly views on the war in Iraq? That doesn’t say anything about his scathing commentaries of religions. A similar fallacy is attributing the characteristics of one member of a group to all, such as Hitler, Stalin or Pol Pot for atheists arguments or even George W for conservatives.

    These fallacies, while tempting to make, are easily recognizable by both sides and will not gain you traction at all.

  488. #490 Dustin
    July 16, 2008

    Christ, have we hit Godwin’s Law already?

    Doesn’t matter. Godwin’s Law is Nazi bullshit.

  489. #491 efrique
    July 16, 2008

    What precisely do they imagine PZed is going to do?

    Look at them sideways?

    Reveal all their illegal activities? Oh, wait, that could be it; it would scare the crap out of them.

  490. #492 pcarini
    July 16, 2008

    In re: Mark Foley – I guess if you really, truly believe in ghosts you shouldn’t be surprised when you start seeing them in the shadows.

  491. #493 craig
    July 16, 2008

    “It reminds me of conservatives who like to trot out Reagans resolution of the Iranian Hostage Crisis,”

    Quick worker, that Reagan, seeing as the hostages were being released right as he took the fucking oath of office.

  492. #494 Ken Cope
    July 16, 2008

    How sweet! Thanks, TM! Loves me some cast pics from Freaks. Johnny Eck is a favorite; an old girlfriend got a chance to speak with him on a phone call arranged for her by Forry Ackerman. He performed in a “saw the volunteer in half” magician’s illusion where, having been “restored” he stood on the shoulders of a midget in pants until they “split” and the bottom half and the top half ran around separately to much merriment and mayhem among the panicked marks. What made the trick stick was that Johnny had a close to identical fraternal twin who played the volunteer. The magician may very well have used the magic words, “Hocus, Pocus!” I wonder where they came from?

    Missing from that pic is Harry Earles, who also appeared as a member of the Lollipop Guild.

  493. #495 Wowbagger
    July 16, 2008

    Dustin, what’s your point?

  494. #496 Muzz
    July 16, 2008

    I know little of Matt Nisbet’s work or qualifications and I find myself sympathetic to his stated cause, as a liberal arts/lowly humanities sort myself. But my scanty glances at his writing always give the same impression: that he’s not talking about Science Communication he’s talking about Science Marketing.
    Now, I’ve always felt that Comms Studies always copped too much stick from the right wing and from the hard sciences for what is a harmless little discipline with an at times interesting look at the world. But I did feel, back in the day, that it was such a hybrid discipline (prone to borrowing other ideas and using them as metaphors) it would have trouble, philosophically, standing on its own two feet. What gets written on Matt Nisbet’s site makes me think that, in the years since I took it, it has finally succumbed.

  495. #497 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    the Reagan administration went on to sell weapons to the Ayatollah.

    …and to the precursor of what became the Taliban (and gave them military training, to boot).

    …and that’s just scratching the very outermost surface.

  496. #498 truth machine, OM
    July 16, 2008

    All I have learned here is that an atheist is a self-impressed pig.

    Wow. Which one?

  497. #499 chibi curmudgeon
    July 16, 2008

    To be honest when I heard the word cyberpistol, my mind superimposed PZ’s head on Rambo’s and then it cut to a little montage of him shooting in the wild jungles of the internet. Did this happen to anyone else?

    No, but I did snort tea out of my nose when I read this. Come on, someone make an animation!

  498. #500 Ron in Houston
    July 16, 2008

    Dustin

    That is the finest (and funniest) piece of satire I’ve seen in a long, long time.

    If I had an award to give you, I’d do it.

  499. #501 Charlie Foxtrot
    July 16, 2008

    oh! Look! A Bishop calls the trauma suffered by a priest’s rape victims “dwelling crankily on old wounds”!

    Cassock wearing scum.

  500. #502 Ichthyic
    July 16, 2008

    oh! Look! A Bishop calls the trauma suffered by a priest’s rape victims “dwelling crankily on old wounds”!

    If I’ve learned anything about the religious over the last 30 years, it’s that they simply cannot resist shooting themselves in the head, given even the slightest opportunity to do so.

    this is just another straw in the giant haystack.

  501. #503 Ray
    July 16, 2008

    Reading this post by the bigot Myers and the ensuing responses goes a long way in exposing the outright hatred and distain toward anything Christian. I challenge any of you to be as hateful toward anything muslim. No? I thought not.

  502. #504 arensb
    July 16, 2008

    efrique @#491:

    What precisely do they imagine PZed is going to do?

    Look at them sideways?

    Don’t you know that PZ always keeps an eponym hidden under his alacrity? He might start firing off litotes or something!

    (This comment dedicated to Casey Luskin.)

  503. #505 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    I challenge any of you to be as hateful toward anything muslim. No? I thought not.

    Ahh, you have Koran envy. Don’t worry. We’ll pray for you.

  504. #506 Gary
    July 17, 2008

    The most ironic thing about all this is that if the catholic response had been “We disagree with and don’t condone Myers’ views, but it’s his right to say what he wants on his private blog”, the catholics would’ve come out of this looking morally and ethically superior to Myers.

    But they didn’t. They’re the ones who kicked up the shitstorm, and now they’re trying to blame Myers for it. Also, just for the lulz, I’d look into pressing libel charges against Donahue for describing you as a racist, Myers. I’d love to see that go ahead.

  505. #507 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Come on PZ? What you don’t want to be associated with a Texas redneck with man boobs? WTF? I thought you people were freethinkers?

    Ron in, I couldn’t care less what your attributes are – you seem to be the one taken in by the genetic fallacy.

  506. #508 AdamNelson
    July 17, 2008

    “I challenge any of you to be as hateful toward anything muslim.”

    Here’s a free tip, Ray: look through PZ’s previous posts, and READ THEM. I know reading is one of those things that guys like you are adverse to, but you’ll get used to it. Some of the posts even have pictures!

  507. #509 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Ray,

    Yeah, we’ve never heard that claim before.

    DO SOME FUCKING READING BEFORE YOU POST YOU FUCKING IGNORANT PIECE OF SHIT!

  508. #510 clinteas
    July 17, 2008

    Charlie Foxtrot,

    all good,let them self-destruct !

    I find it rather excellent that the pedophiles and rapists in the CC think whoever criticizes them on their acts is spoiling the great fun were all having rejoicing in WYD,its so gtotesquely unconnected to reality that they are just constantly shooting themselves in the foot !

  509. #511 Charlie Foxtrot
    July 17, 2008

    hmmm, not just any old mitre-wielding coverup-artist either… but the Bishop organising the whole “World(as-long-as-you-count-only-Catholics-as-‘theworld’) Youth Day” cracker-feasting dead-guy adoring extravaganza.

    I love his whole “lets just focus on how nice we all are this week” attitude

  510. #512 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Wowbagger,
    Your response just proves what a world without God produces…hatred, violence, and vulgarity…it is YOU who is ignorant my friend….change your ways while you still can….I will pray for you.

  511. #513 Steve
    July 17, 2008

    “Reading this post by the bigot Myers and the ensuing responses goes a long way in exposing the outright hatred and distain toward anything Christian. I challenge any of you to be as hateful toward anything muslim. No? I thought not.”

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/desecration_its_a_fun_hobby.php

    Bam!

    Have fun.

  512. #514 mayhempix
    July 17, 2008

    #486 Posted by: David Carson | July 16, 2008 11:31 PM

    I can see how the David issue could be a bit disconcerting.
    That’s why I chose a name that would be hard to confuse with another one.

    Many of the god trolls and krolls use Biblical names.
    Lots of Davids, Johns, Peters, etc.

  513. #515 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    I challenge any of you to be as hateful toward anything muslim.

    Got a Koran handy for me to piss on?

  514. #516 clinteas
    July 17, 2008

    HeHe,

    Wowbagger,
    got the royal treatment there from Ray,LOL.

    Ray,

    I pray for your mother and sister mate.

  515. #517 pcarini
    July 17, 2008

    Er, in #492, that should be Tom Foley, not Mark Foley… so hard to tell the corrupt bastards apart.

  516. #518 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Gary,
    Myers is a bigot, not a racist. The problem is this…if Myers (or any of you) choose not to believe, that is your choice….but why must you do all you can to belittle and hate all those that choose to believe…just go about your business…why do you feel it necessary to desecrate the Holy Eucharist….compensating for something, perhaps?

  517. #519 Ken Cope
    July 17, 2008

    Around here you’ve gotta be quick to post that for PZ, desecration is an equal opportunity hobby.

    Jesus, Mo, Shiva, Zeus, they’re so hard to tell apart and so equally imaginary.

  518. #520 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    clinteas,
    My mother and sister are fine, mate, thank you. They are practicing and believing Catholics which ensures that their souls are heaven bound. But I do thank you for your concern.

  519. #521 David
    July 17, 2008

    Those who have said in reply to my earlier post that an argument or a philosophy should be evaluated on its own merits and not the personal merits of its advocates are correct. Regrettably I made some of my first remarks out of anger rather than reason. But that is the point I intended to make, since I failed to make the point clearly: what I see here are lots of people who claim to give reason pride of place while they ridicule those whose views are opposite their own. What, exactly, is reasonable about that? Some of you who responded to me pointed out my use of the ad hominem fallacy, but there are plenty of so-called “people of reason” here who have done precisely the same.

  520. #522 Rob H
    July 17, 2008

    Ray @ #518

    That’s pretty rich coming from a group of people that say atheists will suffer eternal torment for not “choosing to believe” what they assert is infallible, then insist on teaching anti-science in science classrooms. Are you saying that Christians are just “going about their business”?

  521. #523 inkadu
    July 17, 2008

    icthyic:

    the Reagan administration went on to sell weapons to the Ayatollah.

    …and to the precursor of what became the Taliban (and gave them military training, to boot).

    No, no, no. The Taliban was created retroactively by Bill Clinton when he failed to kill Osama bin Laden when given the chance. It’s one of those time travel paradoxes.

    Ray – No matter how many pigs Mohammed had sex with during his lifetime, it doesn’t make the existence of a historical Jesus any more likely.

  522. #524 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Your response just proves what a world without God produces…

    But I thought you believe that the God is in the world?

    See, the thing is that it’s hard to respect people who don’t even make a minimal attempt to exercise intelligence or intellectual honesty.

    I will pray for you.

    Fuck you too.

  523. #525 Gary
    July 17, 2008

    Ray,

    You’re spot on. I desecrate eucharists because I have a small penis. In fact, every time I crush a cracker, I hope with all my heart that the part of Jesus’ body that was in that cracker was his wang.

    I’ll be damned if a fictional son of God from 2000 years ago is having a bigger penis than me.

  524. #526 Kel
    July 17, 2008

    Wow, hopefully that shuts up all the Catholics asking him to desecrate the Koran instead.

  525. #527 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Ray wrote:

    Wowbagger,
    Your response just proves what a world without God produces…hatred, violence, and vulgarity…it is YOU who is ignorant my friend….change your ways while you still can….I will pray for you.

    No, retard, my response proves that I’m tired of idiots coming to the thread and making stupid comments that mean they haven’t bothered to read anything before posting. Starting at the middle is fine when you’re enjoying crayon-time with your colouring-books, but in most cases you have to begin at the beginning. If you’d shown up any time before the last half-hour you might have experienced any number of my more polite, peaceful and reserved posts.

    But, right now, I’m tired of idiots like you showing up and making statements that add nothing to the dialogue in progress.

    In the immortal words of Walter Sobchak, you’re out of your fucking element.

    Yeah, you pray for me. I’ll think for both of us. At least one of us will be doing something constructive.

  526. #528 Catherine
    July 17, 2008

    Yeah, Ray. Keep your sky daddy out of my child’s classroom and maybe we’ll talk. Until then, STFU! GOD IS IMAGINARY!

  527. #529 AdamNelson
    July 17, 2008

    “why do you feel it necessary to desecrate the Holy Eucharist?”

    So I guess “Holy Eucharist” is code for death-threats now?

    “but why must you do all you can to belittle and hate all those that choose to believe”

    You just don’t get it. Disagreeing with you isn’t “hate”. Getting a bunch of like-minded dudes together to talk about how dumb your beliefs are isn’t “hate”. YOU came into this blog of your own free will and engaged us in conversation; nobody forced you here to investigate and read every little heretical tidbit.

    Here’s the bottom line: we’re going to continue calling your beliefs idiotic. You’ll do the same to us, which is good, because we don’t care. You may want to shut down all criticism, but some of us are secure enough in our beliefs to allow criticism to occur.

  528. #530 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    Some of you who responded to me pointed out my use of the ad hominem fallacy, but there are plenty of so-called “people of reason” here who have done precisely the same.

    where.

    nowhere has anyone said that all arguments from catholics are ridiculous because they believe in transubstantiation.

    instead, all we have put forward (relevant to the subject at hand) is that the concept of transubstantiation itself is ridiculous.

    that is NOT ad-hominem.

    In fact, several of us have repeatedly noted Catholics who HAVE had a more sane response to their precious “beliefs” being ridiculed.

    so far, you don’t qualify.

    care to try again?

    finally:

    please STOP equating reason with reasonable.

    really not the same thing.

  529. #531 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, when you say “I will pray for you” to an atheist, you are only convincing the atheist you’re an asshole and batshit crazy.

  530. #532 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Hey Charlie Foxtrot,
    Thank God for world youth day and the Pope’s participation. With the millions of worldwide youth that are attending, we can only hope that the next generation will stamp out the angry, hate-filled atheistic voices such as PZ Myers and the respondants we see here. The Spirit is alive!!

  531. #533 Cujo359
    July 17, 2008

    The Foley quotes in that CNA article are the craziest thing I’ve seen since Ted Stevens tried to explain how the Internet works.

  532. #534 Dahan
    July 17, 2008

    Max at 141,

    “4. PZ has one RNC delegate calling for something just short of activation of the Minnesota National Guard for Convention security. I’m sure the good people of Minnesota
    just love that kind of publicity. For them, It must bring back memories of the Chicago Convention in the ’60s.”

    As a “good person from Minnesota” I indeed do love this publicity. Thanks for pointing it out. Oh, and the over reaction of those in power during the 1960’s? Yep, Shows that there are still those same problems.

    Funny, when I started reading your post I thought I was gonna disagree with you, but no, you’re right. This really does show the true colors of the far right, and they’re as ugly as ever.

  533. #535 Matt
    July 17, 2008

    Who cares what Bill Donahue thinks about this? For that matter, who cares what other Catholics think about it?

    But you should know that you’re taking a risky gamble, Dr. Myers. The desecration of the Eucharist, the body of the one God, is extremely imprudent, regardless of what you believe or what point you are trying to make. There are things unseen at work, the consequences of which you do not know.

  534. #536 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    what I see here are lots of people who claim to give reason pride of place while they ridicule those whose views are opposite their own. What, exactly, is reasonable about that?

    The burden is on you to show that it isn’t reasonable. In fact, it’s quite reasonable to ridicule people who espouse bullshit and do it dishonestly … who do it employing every possible fallacy, who do it in a self-serving fashion. These people aren’t just ridiculous, they are disgusting.

    Now, what’s reasonable about your trolling?

  535. #537 Robert Thille
    July 17, 2008

    So, if I started a religion, where adherents felt their excrement was sacred, actually “of god” (hey, isn’t god everywhere?) and needed to be saved, dried and displayed on an altar until the person dies, then they are buried with the body.

    Can we then claim that the practice of all non-believers flushing their poop is horribly offensive to us believers?

  536. #538 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    BobC,
    That’s funny….when an atheist says “there is no God” or “the Holy Eucharist is just a cracker” I am convinced that the atheist is an asshole and batshit crazy. Guess we have something in common after all.

  537. #539 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    There are things unseen at work, the consequences of which you do not know.

    How do you know? And why should anyone believe you?

  538. #540 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    Ray prays for his dog and his mother. He should pray off, and go pray for himself.

  539. #541 inkadu
    July 17, 2008

    David:

    But that is the point I intended to make, since I failed to make the point clearly: what I see here are lots of people who claim to give reason pride of place while they ridicule those whose views are opposite their own. What, exactly, is reasonable about that?

    I’m typing slowly so you can understand:

    Crackers do not turn into people.

    Let me say it again:

    Crackers do not turn into people.

    Now go back and review your comments. Look at the word reason and think about what it might mean in the conext of this discussion. Thank you.

  540. #542 Zarquon
    July 17, 2008

    There are things unseen at work, the consequences of which you do not know.

    Prove it.

  541. #543 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Robert Thille,
    You can do whatever you want….I’m not going to hate you for it….why must you atheists hate Christians for practicing their beliefs?

  542. #544 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Matt wrote:

    Who cares what Bill Donahue thinks about this? For that matter, who cares what other Catholics think about it?

    But you should know that you’re taking a risky gamble, Dr. Myers. The desecration of the Eucharist, the body of the one God, is extremely imprudent, regardless of what you believe or what point you are trying to make. There are things unseen at work, the consequences of which you do not know.

    Woooooooo-oooo-oooooo! Scary Christian ooga-booga! Watch out PZ!

    Matt, you’re an idiot.

  543. #545 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Guess we have something in common after all.

    No, BobC isn’t trolling. (And he‘s right, and makes sense.)

  544. #546 Charlie Foxtrot
    July 17, 2008

    @Ray

    Seriously – “god” “yahwaeh” “allah” are all just the same fairytale dreamt up by some goat-herders who looked up at the infinite universe and shat themselves.
    I consider them all the same ego-delusion. A ‘mind-virus’ force-fed to each generation with the only goal of self-preservation.
    I sincerely hope my children, or maybe their children, only have to read about religion in history books – and shake their heads in wonder.

    I will pray for you.

    Ha! Oh, for a second there I thought you were actually going to do something!

  545. #547 Kel
    July 17, 2008

    That’s funny….when an atheist says “there is no God” or “the Holy Eucharist is just a cracker” I am convinced that the atheist is an asshole and batshit crazy. Guess we have something in common after all.

    Wait, you actually believe that a cracker can turn into the body of Christ through the priest saying a few words?

    Would you care to put this view under a double-blind experiment?

  546. #548 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    why must you atheists hate Christians for practicing their beliefs?

    your definition of “hate” must be much broader than a sane person’s.

  547. #549 AdamNelson
    July 17, 2008

    “we can only hope that the next generation will stamp out the angry, hate-filled atheistic voices such as PZ Myers and the respondants we see here”

    *cue whining* Waaaah, why all the hate?? Why can’t you just like us silently so we can slam you? Stop being mean, you big ugly meanies!

    Get a life, Ray, as well as a cure for that hypocrisy o’ yours.

  548. #550 Longstreet63
    July 17, 2008

    Soylent Jesus is made of people!

    Well, imaginary people…

  549. #551 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Hey inkadu,
    I’m typing slowly so you can understand:

    All the known matter in the universe could not have been contained within an atomic nucleus without the power of God.

    Let me say it again:

    All the known matter in the universe could not have been contained within an atomic nucleus without the power of God.

    Now go back and review your comments. Look at the word reason and think about what it might mean in the context of this discussion. Thank you.

  550. #552 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, learn how to use an ellipsis or cut off your right pinky. I don’t care which.

    I’ll pray for you! =)

  551. #553 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    There are things unseen at work, the consequences of which you do not know.

    Shhshhhh.

    aaah…. too .. late!

    Ph’nglui mglw’nafh Cthulhu R’lyeh wgah’nagl fhtagn!

  552. #554 DLUX
    July 17, 2008

    RAY: “They are practicing and believing Catholics which ensures that their souls are heaven bound”

    Where by ‘souls’ he means ‘money’ and by ‘heaven’ he means ‘Vatican Molestation Legal Defense’.

  553. #555 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    why must you atheists hate Christians for practicing their beliefs?

    Why must you lie? And Why must you troll?

  554. #556 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, there’s a big difference between an atheist saying “there’s no sky fairies” and your “I will pray for you”. When a Christian says “I will pray for you” he really means “My invisible friend will torture you because you don’t believe in my childish fantasies”.

    Christians really do sound like assholes when they say that.

  555. #557 Ken Cope
    July 17, 2008

    “But why must you do all you can to belittle and hate all those that choose to believe…”

    We don’t hate all those that believe, we hate all that you believe, but keep posting fatuous nonsense, and we’ll get around to loathing and despising you, too, personally and in great detail. That isn’t bigotry, it’s informed disdain for flesh-dissolving stupidity that buuurns.

    I hope someday you’ll realize that an organized mental virus whose victims value a magic cracker over a human being, whose hordes of automatons try to get a student expelled because he wouldn’t eat a magic biscuit, represents a problem for the rest of us who want to use the very few years we have together on the planet to not have to watch out for people with profoundly sociopathic beliefs. I have to drive, sharing the road with people who expect angels to do their driving for them while they answer their cell phones. At least in California, there are plenty of nutjobs running around all 5150, but because I don’t want to join in the most popular consensual hallucination, I’m the guy that’s crazy because I don’t believe in supernatural bullshit.

  556. #558 Larry
    July 17, 2008

    There are things unseen at work, the consequences of which you do not know.

    Are you honestly trying to scare a group of people who don’t believe in “things unseen” with “things unseen”. Well, bring it on, Matt, m’boy. Turn over your cards, lets see what ya got.

  557. #559 AdamNelson
    July 17, 2008

    “Would you care to put this view under a double-blind experiment?”

    Oh come on. EVERYBODY knows that the whole empirical world of science and nature are just lies concocted by Satan to turn us from the Path, meaning Satan created the universe and… and… Ahh, my brain just melted.

    It’s hard thinking like an idiot.

  558. #560 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Let me say it again

    You can say it all you want but you are still wrong, ignorant, stupid, intellectually dishonest, and trolling.

  559. #561 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    DLUX: Please tell me this is not the GAFFL DLUX?

    I suppose you are as equally critical of the National Education Association, which is harboring and protect thousands of child abusing teachers…or do you not have a hatred against that group?

  560. #562 inkadu
    July 17, 2008

    Robert Thille is cribbing off Orson Scott Card. Which is fine. That one was a good story.

    Matt:
    There are things unseen at work, the consequences of which you do not know.

    Indeed. Eldritch horrors, etc. Give your soul Cthulhu and pray for a quick death.

  561. #563 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    “Blah Blah Blah without the power of God.”

    Translation: “I don’t understand so I invoke Magic.”

  562. #564 Max Verret
    July 17, 2008

    Re: C at #389

    It isn’t a question of greater or lesser blame. The husband is totally to blame for sending a threatening email. PZ and his followers who did his bidding are partially to blame for getting her fired. Also to blame for her firing is 800-Flowers which could have exercised other options. The lady is least to blame since all she did was fail to secure the email account in her own home. If I did not secure my email account, which I do not, I would not expect my wife to do something so stupid and thoughtless as her husband did.

  563. #565 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, if you have Koran envy, convert. If you have union envy, join one. You do have penis envy, but I can’t help you with that one.

  564. #566 Neural T
    July 17, 2008

    David @ 521

    what I see here are lots of people who claim to give reason pride of place while they ridicule those whose views are opposite their own.

    The comment threads on Pharyngula are not a forum for rigorous discourse. There are places for that, but for many of us, this just a place to have fun and let our frustrations out. At least, it is for me.

    If you want to have a formal debate, and you’re willing to pay for transportation and an honorarium, I can debate the merits of Catholicism, atheism, God, or whatever else you want, with you.

    Somehow, I don’t think you will be satisfied with the results.

  565. #567 splendidmonkey
    July 17, 2008

    @#149: Donohue is the “Cracker Whisperer”

  566. #568 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Ray,

    ….why must you atheists hate Christians for practicing their beliefs?

    I’ll try to make this simple for you, Ray. Sorry I can’t draw any pictures for you to make it easier.

    Read. The. Entire. Post. From. The. Top.

    I don’t hate christians for practicing their beliefs. I hate what happens when christians to force others who don’t share their beliefs to do something – like hand over a cracker that that person was given.

    I hate it when christians come to a blog and make stupid, ignorant comments without reading things first.

    Tolerate the christian, hate teh stupid.

  567. #569 AdamNelson
    July 17, 2008

    “All the known matter in the universe could not have been contained within an atomic nucleus without the power of God.”

    When was all matter in the universe contained in an atomic nucleus? If you mean the big bang, then you’re VERY confused. Do some *gasp* reading in order to *double-gasp* educate yourself.

    Also, how do you even go about proving something like that? Did you book your time at CERN to smash several billion subatomic particles? Or are you just making crap up again?

  568. #570 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    We don’t hate all those that believe, we hate all that you believe, but keep posting fatuous nonsense,

    hate the sin but not the sinner?

    :p

  569. #571 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Hey Ken,
    And due to your atheism, I have to live next door to the guy who’s watching snuff porn and scoping his next victim. When I complain about this, I’m told “don’t watch it” or “turn the channel.” Why can’t you do the same. Why must you pour your hatred and bigotry upon those of us who choose to save our souls by following the words of Christ?

  570. #572 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    You do have penis envy, but I can’t help you with that one.

    maybe he should try for a detachable one?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byDiILrNbM4

  571. #573 Neural T
    July 17, 2008

    Ray @ 551

    All the known matter in the universe could not have been contained within an atomic nucleus without the power of God.

    Don’t start a physics debate here. You’ll lose. As we approach Planck time, the very notions of matter/energy and the fundamental forces break down. We have equations that accurately describe what happens at that point. Your off-the-cuff, uninformed, reasoning-from-intuition remark is simply wrong.

  572. #574 AdamNelson
    July 17, 2008

    “Why must you pour your hatred and bigotry upon those of us who choose to save our souls by following the words of Christ?”

    You don’t actually read any posts but your own, do you? I’ll explain it one more time: disagreeing with you is not hating. Get over it, baby.

    “And due to your atheism, I have to live next door to the guy who’s watching snuff porn and scoping his next victim.”

    What a steaming pile of burning stupid. That’s all I have to say.

  573. #575 Dlux
    July 17, 2008

    I can see now that Ray has step up to defend Jesus and the Almighty God against us puny earthlings, it’s gonna be a long night.

    Off to bed…

  574. #576 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    And due to your atheism, I have to live next door to the guy who’s watching snuff porn and scoping his next victim.

    Your neigbor is Mel Gibson? While I am really very sorry for that unfortunate fact, it isn’t our fault. In the meantime, I’ll pray for you.

  575. #577 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    we hate all that you believe

    I don’t hate any belief; I don’t even know how to do that. But I do regret that there are so many people who believe so much nonsense, and that that belief in nonsense has significant negative effects, and I do despise self-serving liars and hypocrites like Ray.

  576. #578 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Wowbagger,
    If your hero didn’t believe in the Holy Eucharist, he should not have gone to church. You say you don’t hte Christians, yet you call our Lord a cracker…need I say more. Perhaps I should draw a picture for you. When you belittle the beliefs of another, you are expressing hatred. For Catholics, the Eucharist is sacred….nobody has the right to taek the Holy Eucharist from the church for their own purposes…if you don’t believe, stay away….if you choose to receive the Holy Eucharist, Catholics have every right to demand that you treat it with respect. To say othersie is hate….need a picture?

  577. #579 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Ray blathered:
    And due to your atheism, I have to live next door to the guy who’s watching snuff porn and scoping his next victim

    I’m tempted to say this is the stupidest thing Ray’s written, but he’s getting more incoherent with each post, so I won’t.

    You’d better put on a tinfoil hat, Ray. Maybe he picks out his victims via satellite. You might be next if you aren’t protected!

    Jackass.

  578. #580 Ken Cope
    July 17, 2008

    The desecration of the Eucharist, the body of the one God, is extremely imprudent, regardless of what you believe or what point you are trying to make. There are things unseen at work, the consequences of which you do not know.

    Who do you think you are? Victor Van Helsing?

    Grow the fuck up.

  579. #581 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    Hey Ken,
    And due to your atheism

    Yeah, it’s all your fault, Ken. We should report your atheist conspiracy to force Ken to watch his neighbor’s porn to the proper authorities.

    damn, Ray is a complete nutter.

  580. #582 craig
    July 17, 2008

    “We don’t hate all those that believe, we hate all that you believe, but keep posting fatuous nonsense,”

    Speak for yourself.
    I don’t hate anything. I don’t hate what they believe anymore than I hate Santa. I think its silly and foolish and delusional for adults to believe it, and I think they if they think they’re going to demand I respect their stupidity, they’ve got another thing coming.

    But I don’t hate that they believe. Really, if they want to believe, that’s their loss, their problem. I’m just going to try my damnedest to make sure that they don’t make it my problem or the problem of other innocents.

  581. #583 AdamNelson
    July 17, 2008

    “if you don’t believe, stay away”

    Five words: Then get the fuck out!

    Take your own bloody advice! You don’t accept our beliefs, so learn from your own “wisdom” and take off!

  582. #584 inkadu
    July 17, 2008

    Ray sez:
    And due to your atheism, I have to live next door to the guy who’s watching snuff porn and scoping his next victim.

    Damnit! Who let Ray read our secret atheist master plan? Seriously. Whoever it was had better bring some Christian baby cake to the next meeting. This sets back our snuff porn distribution schedule back at least a month; but at least we can use the time to better aerosolize our virus for spreading homosexuality.

  583. #585 Richard in Edmonton
    July 17, 2008

    ray writes

    “For Catholics, the Eucharist is sacred….nobody has the right to taek the Holy Eucharist from the church for their own purposes…if you don’t believe, stay away….if you choose to receive the Holy Eucharist, Catholics have every right to demand that you treat it with respect.”

    We take to task your presumption that the cracker is the body of Christ. What you fail to question is how this can be so.

  584. #586 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Wowbagger,
    The only jackasses here are those who sit on their high-horses, hate-filled and condescending while pretending to be enlightened intellectuals. You, my friend, fit that category quite well.
    Jackass.

  585. #587 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    And due to your atheism, I have to live next door to the guy who’s watching snuff porn and scoping his next victim.

    Despicable lies and stupidity.

    When I complain about this, I’m told “don’t watch it” or “turn the channel.”

    You’re incoherent.

    Why must you pour your hatred and bigotry upon those of us who choose to save our souls by following the words of Christ?

    I despise you because you’re a disgusting lying asshole and troll. If you don’t want me to pour my hatred on you, simply go away.

  586. #588 Larry
    July 17, 2008

    And due to your atheism, I have to live next door to the guy who’s watching snuff porn and scoping his next victim.

    Well, as a catholic, Ray, you are falling down on the job, I must say. Your impassioned pleas to the magic cookie for a new neighbor don’t seem to be having any effect.

  587. #589 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    force Ken Ray

  588. #590 Anonymous
    July 17, 2008

    Everyone here could do with spending at least 2 hours a day browsing 4chan, simply to educate themselves on what a troll is and how to deal with them.

    It is not “reply to them as if they’re real”. It’s also not “reply to them as if they’re real, but include ‘…you’re a troll’ at the end of the reply”.

    It’s just ignore them. Completely.

    Saddest thing is, it’s often difficult to tell a troll from a dull, dense or ignorant religious fanatic.

  589. #591 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    It isn’t a question of greater or lesser blame.

    Really?

    Damn you, ARPANET, and your e-mail technology!

    The lady is least to blame since all she did was fail to secure the email account in her own home. If I did not secure my email account, which I do not, I would not expect my wife to do something so stupid and thoughtless as her husband did.

    <giggle>

    You forgot to add you’re not a lawyer.

  590. #592 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, you can do one of two things: pull your period key from your keyboard with a pair of pliers or use one of these on your right pinky. I’m praying for you!!! =D

  591. #593 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Everyone here could do with spending at least 2 hours a day browsing 4chan, simply to educate themselves on what a troll is and how to deal with them.

    I’m praying for your pompous ass.

  592. #594 Charlie Foxtrot
    July 17, 2008

    All the known matter in the universe could not have been contained within an atomic nucleus without the power of God.

    What the hell kind of mash-up is that? “Atomic nucleus”??? Do people still say that? “Known matter”? What about the unknown matter? Is that the juristiction of a different sky-fairy?

    Listen – ‘poetic’ crap like that might get you approving nods at bible-readings, but carries little weight here.

    You’re a maniac wearing a tinfoil-hat, trying to convince us that “UFO’s must exist, because otherwise you wouldn’t be wearing a tinfoil hat, would you?”

  593. #595 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    Your neighbor is Mel Gibson?

    LOL

  594. #596 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    truth machine,
    your hatred is clear….you’re so insecure, you can’t even use your own name…truth machine? Please….the only truth you seem to know is hatred and despair.
    Sad.

  595. #597 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, #578

    When you belittle the beliefs of another, you are expressing hatred

    You’ve been sucking anti-freeze out of your radiator again, haven’t you Ray?

    No-one with a reasonable grip on both their sanity and the english language is going to agree with you on that one. You’re a fool and you’re beginning to bore me – and i’ve got a high threshold for teh stupid.

    Moron.

  596. #598 mayhempix
    July 17, 2008

    All the known matter in the universe could not have been contained within an atomic nucleus without the power of God.
    Posted by: Ray | July 17, 2008 12:26 AM

    Why must you use one fairy tale to invoke another?

  597. #599 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Charlie Foxtrot,
    Come on Charlie….you and all your atheist friends love to sit around lampooning those who believe in Christ, while you pat yourselves on the back over the genious of things such as “the Big Bang Theory” or “life evolved from nothing”….and you say we’re the ones who believe in fairy tales?

  598. #600 craig
    July 17, 2008

    “Why must you pour your hatred and bigotry…”

    And I’ll say this once again.
    Criticism of an idea IS never, CAN never be bigotry.
    It can be correct or incorrect, rude, funny, a matter of opinion. But it is NEVER bigotry.

    ALL IDEAS are fair game for criticism.

    If you call criticism of your ideas bigotry, you’re not only incorrect, you’re a coward and you’re disgusting.

    A coward because rather than defend your indefensibly stupid ideas, you try to shield them from any scrutiny.

    Disgusting because you hijack the experiences of those who have been the brunt of TRUE bigotry due to an innate characteristic such as race, gender, or sexual identity in your cynical and cowardly attempt to shield your IDEAS from scrutiny.

    Criticizing yours or anyone’s beliefs cannot possibly make someone a bigot.
    Your saying that can possibly and almost certainly makes your a reprehensible shithead.

  599. #601 Neural T
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, seriously. Pick up a book like The Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene. Read it all the way through. Take good notes. Then sit on it and ponder it for a while. Then read it through again. Then a third time.

    Familiarize yourself with how astonishing, surprising and perplexing our universe really is. What you’ll find is a lot of intriguing questions and problems, but none of them are of the nature that you described. You’ll realize just how ignorant a statement like “the matter of the universe could not be contained within the nucleus of a single atom” is.

  600. #602 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    OH fucking yawn.

    Ray is baked.

    move on.

  601. #603 aporetical
    July 17, 2008

    Bigotry: ridiculing someone because of something they’re born with, i.e. race, gender, etc.

    Not bigotry: ridiculing someone because they choose to believe something silly and demand that everybody respect it.

  602. #604 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    You’re very stupid, Ray.

  603. #605 Richard in Edmonton
    July 17, 2008

    I wrote this item in another topic but had no takers so I thought I might see if ray could take a go at it.

    It struck me today that I am ignorant of the means by which the first members of the Christian religion who instituted the ritual of the Eucharist were able to discern whether they had succeeded in accomplishing the actual transubstantiation effect if ,being human, they are not able to detect a difference in the “substance” but only in the “accidents” of material things.

    After all, one should be certain of such a thing before invoking the obedience of one’s flock to partake of this ritual wouldn’t you think?

    How about it ray?
    Any believers out there with some insight to this situation?

  604. #606 Jay
    July 17, 2008

    Has anyone likened this situation to flag burning yet? Near as I can tell, the situation is fairly analogous. On the one hand, I think PZ should respect the wishes of Catholics as a kind of humanistic compromise. But on the other hand, I think desecrating a host is perfectly permissible as an expression of freedom of speech.

  605. #607 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    your hatred is clear

    I’m certainly not hiding the fact that I think you’re a despicable lying scumbag troll. But you seem to love it, and want more, else you would stop trolling here. You’re a lowly lying piece of shit and, if your God exists, YOU will spend an eternity in hell for being such an incredible sinner.

  606. #608 inkadu
    July 17, 2008

    I wonder what percentage of troll threads are devoted to giving advice on how to deal with the troll, whether it IS a troll, what KIND of troll it is, why aren’t people ignoring the troll, wouldn’t it be better if we stopped feeding the troll, etc.

    I guess I should spend two hours a day reading 4chan to find out.

    And I say this only to elevate the discussion here:
    The length of a curve defined by a function from points a to b is the integral from a to b of the square root of the sum of one and the square of the derivative of the function.

    And so on.

  607. #609 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    Has anyone likened this situation to flag burning yet?

    Once for every constituent piece of matter in a mole.

  608. #610 raven
    July 17, 2008

    kenny/ray and several hundred aliases:

    And due to your atheism, I have to live next door to the guy who’s watching snuff porn and scoping his next victim.

    That is an obvious lie. Ray is kenny and several hundred other aliases. His neighbor is wacko. Not surprising, Kenny/Ray/etc. has been locked up in a mental hospital for years.

    His fellow inmates undoubtedly think he is crazy even by lunatic asylum standards.

  609. #611 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Ray: “Why must you pour your hatred and bigotry upon those of us who choose to save our souls by following the words of Christ?”

    Hate is a very strong word, Ray. I don’t hate anyone. However it’s obvious the world would be better off if there weren’t so many people willing to believe in medieval bullshit, including your Christ bullshit. I notice the daily Muslim suicide bombings, the Jewish “God gave us this land so get out”, and the Christian harassment of biology teachers. Religious insanity is completely out of control, and it’s getting worse, not better. Many atheists choose to ignore religious idiots, and perhaps that’s a good idea. I prefer to fight back. Ridicule has been shown to work. Where I live in Florida, constant ridicule of religious assholes saved our new public school science standards from religious attacks.

    These are some of the reasons Catholics are ridiculed when they go nuts because of worthless crackers. If religious people kept to themselves, let science teachers do their jobs, didn’t blow themselves up in crowds, gave up their religious wars, and did not make death threats when their crackers aren’t respected, I would be happy to ignore their breathtaking stupidity.

    Oh, by the way, Ray, there are no souls, and your Christ is a myth.

  610. #612 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Craig, #601, wrote:

    Ray, seriously. Pick up a book like The Fabric of the Cosmos by Brian Greene. Read it all the way through. Take good notes. Then sit on it and ponder it for a while. Then read it through again. Then a third time.

    Craig, I’ve highlighted everything in your post that I feel Ray, most likely, won’t be able to do. I was tossing up whether he’d be able to pick up the book in the first place – he may not have evolved opposable thumbs just yet – but someone’s taught him how to type (pity about spelling and sentence construction) so maybe, just maybe, he can manage that unaided.

    Just trying to work out what ‘ponder’ will probably keep him busy for a few hours.

  611. #613 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    On the one hand, I think PZ should respect the wishes of Catholics as a kind of humanistic compromise.

    Catholics wish for women to kill themselves with coathangers, among other things.

  612. #614 Rob H
    July 17, 2008

    Uh, guys? Ray is obviously trolling. Stop feeding the trolls with your delicious attention.

  613. #615 gdlchmst
    July 17, 2008

    Come on Charlie….you and all your atheist friends love to sit around lampooning those who believe in Christ, while you pat yourselves on the back over the genious of things such as “the Big Bang Theory” or “life evolved from nothing”….and you say we’re the ones who believe in fairy tales?

    I personally like to lampoon someone who doesn’t know how to spell “genius” as much as I do those who believe in invisible deities.

  614. #616 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Anonymous @590.

    Around here, trolls are punching-bags.

    Ignoring them makes them disappear before we can have some fun.

    I’m not saying they’re welcome, but you know, lemons and lemonade…

  615. #617 Neural T
    July 17, 2008

    Anonymous #590

    Saddest thing is, it’s often difficult to tell a troll from a dull, dense or ignorant religious fanatic.

    With regard to religious fundamentalists, that’s called Poe’s Law.

  616. #618 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    aporetical
    websters.com:
    Bigot: a person obstinately or intolerantly devoted to his or her own opinions and prejudices; especially : one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance.
    You are all bigots…congrats!!

  617. #619 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    I’m not saying they’re welcome, but you know, lemons and lemonade…

    It’s shit and shit salad. Duh.

  618. #620 craig
    July 17, 2008

    Ray is obviously Kenny.

    I just wonder how the fuck someone in a psych ward gets access to a PC and the net and an endless stream of proxies.

  619. #621 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    “Ray is kenny and several hundred other aliases.”

    Ray, if that’s true, and I think it is true, go fuck yourself.

  620. #622 Jay Di Silvestri
    July 17, 2008
    Also, as an aside, if I were to be Catholic
     and want to partake of these awful crackers
     but can't since I have Celiac disease, how
     does the church let me stay in the club? Do
     they make gluten free jeebus crackers? mmmmmmmmm....federally offensive
     gluten freechrist crackers......

    This is a very hateful thing to write. Your blog, and your actions are reprehensible. You do not have to believe our faith, but desecrating that which is sacred to us is a hateful, evil act, at least on par with painting swastikas on a synagogue, or burning a cross. I hope you someday see your error, but in any event, it is hope that the University of Minnesota will fire you immediately, because the bigotry that you espouse should not be allowed any forum in a public university.

  621. #623 Breakfast
    July 17, 2008

    Whooooa. PZ is srs bsnss.

    And because he is desecrating the wafer, the RNC needs security to protect them against people who read his blog…….?

    Am I really missing something? I don’t see as much specific protest about how utterly bizarre a connection that is as I’d expect to see. What in blazes has wafergate got to do with anything to do with Republicans, or their convention, or any sort of real life occurrences?

  622. #624 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    truth machine,
    oh, aren’t you clever with the coat hanger quote…what we wish for is people to commit to sacramental marriages and to stop the slaughter of the unborn. Big difference.

  623. #625 Anonymous
    July 17, 2008

    Truth machine…
    “I’m certainly not hiding the fact that I think you’re a despicable lying scumbag troll. But you seem to love it, and want more, else you would stop trolling here. You’re a lowly lying piece of shit and, if your God exists, YOU will spend an eternity in hell for being such an incredible sinner.”

    You seem to not quite understand what a troll is. A troll is not merely someone who posts nasty, stupid, ignorant or questionable material.
    A troll is someone who does this *specifically to get an angry response*. The response is fun to them. That is why they do it.

    By responding like this, all you’re doing is ensuring that whoever Ray really is, he’s having a great time. Probably got a few chat windows open, sending links to the comments of people replying to him to all his friends and they’re having a great time laughing it up.

    “Don’t feed the troll” is the best damn defence against them. Completely ignore it.

    *Any* response that treats *any* of the their post seriously, even if you include “you’re a troll” somewhere in it, means they’re getting exactly the response they want. So stop replying, and they go away (or their posts get more and more inflammatory, which is a sure sign of a troll fishing for replies, which is what’s happening with Ray).

    I’m trying to help you folk here, not mock you.

  624. #626 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    I just wonder how the fuck someone in a psych ward gets access to a PC and the net and an endless stream of proxies.

    I’m not sure, but it probably has something to do with barfing up his meds back up for the other patients.

  625. #627 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Thanks for nothing, Dustin. I found it on YouTube.

  626. #628 Jeremy
    July 17, 2008

    If I said I was currently urinating on a stack of “consecrated” wafers, would any of these batshit Craplicks even care? Or do they need someone like Donahue to tell them to be outraged? Does the heathen need to be relatively high-profile like PZ? Does my blog entry need to be picked up by Drudge? It seems like there’s probably all kinds of “blasphemy” going on all over the world on a daily basis. Unless it’s shoved in the faces of the Craplicks and they’re pumped full of “you aughta be outraged!” from their puppet masters, they’re totally ignorant. Wait, they are anyway.

    It’s beside the point, however, since I’d just as soon urinate on a “consecrated” wafer as a Ritz. They’re both fucking crackers.

  627. #629 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    desecrating that which is sacred to us is a hateful, evil act, at least on par with painting swastikas on a synagogue, or burning a cross

    Despicable lying scumbag. And lets not forget that those are Christian acts.

  628. #630 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    BobC,
    I have no idea who Kenny is…but in any event, nice atheistic language…you do your people proud!!

  629. #631 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    I don’t think he’s Kenny – unless he’s actually read something about NDE’s since he’s been dungeoned and stopped believing that’s evidence for god.

    Ray wrote:

    one who regards or treats the members of a group with hatred and intolerance

    As many of us have said, Ray – it’s your ideas and beliefs we’re criticising, so it’s not bigotry. Saying what you’ve said makes you an idiot whether you’re a christian or not.

  630. #632 Ken Cope
    July 17, 2008

    And due to your atheism, I have to live next door to the guy who’s watching snuff porn and scoping his next victim

    MEL GIBSON!!! It’s only an accident my Captain Morgan’s didn’t spew all over the monitor.

    Encrypt your cardboard box’s wireless server. When the GOP Taliban shows up without a FISA warrant, they’ll haul you away too.

  631. #633 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Wowbagger,
    Criticising someone’s ideas and beliefs is bigotry. Saying otherwise makes you an idiot.

  632. #634 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Anonymous, thanks for your demonstration of concern trolling.

    Because we didn’t know that.

  633. #635 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    I have no idea who Kenny is

    let’s find out if that’s true…

    NDE’s are teh bunk.

  634. #636 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    it’s your ideas and beliefs we’re criticising

    It’s his behavior I’m criticizing: trolling, lying, generally be an asshole. That’s quite aside from whatever silliness he believes.

  635. #637 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    Thanks for nothing, Dustin

    That’s what I’m here for.

  636. #638 Charlie Foxtrot
    July 17, 2008

    @Ray

    Your organised delusion had to give up on Flat-Earth when presented with facts, give up Geo-Centrism when presented with facts, most of you have given up Creationism now presented with facts – reality is hemming in and snuffing out your magical-thinking…

    can you hear it? tick tick tick… its coming for you… that’s the real world you can hear out there…

  637. #639 Neural T
    July 17, 2008

    Breakfast #623

    If hordes of people show up at the RNC convention to protest the poor economy, the mortgage crisis and lender bail out, endless war, rising deficits, warrantless wiretaps, and countless other Republican fiascoes, they can turn around say it’s the atheists! They hate us for our religion!

  638. #640 gdlchmst
    July 17, 2008

    You do not have to believe our faith, but desecrating that which is sacred to us is a hateful, evil act, at least on par with painting swastikas on a synagogue, or burning a cross.

    Can’t say that I’m much for vandalism, but cross-burning sounds like fun. I bet your little symbol of death will combust real nicely.

  639. #641 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Criticising someone’s ideas and beliefs is bigotry. Saying otherwise makes you an idiot.

    Only an idiot would think so. I don’t think even you are that stupid; you’re simply lying. And, of course, trolling.

  640. #642 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Jeremy,
    You are a sick and twisted individual, and sadly, quite representative of most on this blog. I will pray for you (and all the other hellbound here)

  641. #643 Anonymous
    July 17, 2008

    “Anonymous, thanks for your demonstration of concern trolling.

    Because we didn’t know that.”

    You readin’ this thread? Because it’s pretty clear that people here don’t know it.

  642. #644 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Jay Di Silvestri, are you sure you want to compare the desecration of a cracker to the Ku Klux Klan’s (a Christian organization) burning of a cross?

    I would compare the ridicule of your magical crackers to the drawing of a cartoon of Mohammed. There’s no reason to respect your insanity mister. If you Catholic idiots didn’t go batshit crazy when somebody refused to eat your Jebus cracker, there would be no reason to make fun of it.

  643. #645 gwangung
    July 17, 2008

    Wowbagger,
    Criticising someone’s ideas and beliefs is bigotry.

    Don’t be stupid.

    And don’t treat US as stupid.

  644. #646 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Jay di Silvestri,

    Sigh. Is there some sort of idiot tag-team device out there that you people are hooked up to? Did someone just flash the cracker symbol, batman style, into the clouds as a moron call to arms?

    Read the post from the start. All of your stupid non-arguments have already been refuted. Just pretend your name is Ray and we’ve said what we said to him in the last hour or so to you instead.

  645. #647 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    Because it’s pretty clear that people here don’t know it.

    erroneous conclusion.

    stop.

    now.

  646. #648 craig
    July 17, 2008

    “Criticising someone’s ideas and beliefs is bigotry. Saying otherwise makes you an idiot.”

    You just CRITICIZED wowbaggers idea and belief that all ideas are open to criticism.

    You stupid fuck.

  647. #649 PZ Myers
    July 17, 2008

    Criticising someone’s ideas and beliefs is bigotry.

    That is simply insane. That’s an argument that no ideas or beliefs should ever be criticized. So the next time someone criticizes evolutionary theory, or atheism, or my taste in pants, I get to accuse them of bigotry?

    Kook.

  648. #650 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I’m trying to help you folk here, not mock you.

    Fuck off, you pompous ass.

  649. #651 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Ray: “I will pray for you”

    That’s Christian code for “fuck you”.

    Fuck you too Ray. You’re a shit for brains asshole.

    Ray, is there any Catholic bullshit you DON’T believe?

    Do you believe everything your pope tells you to believe, no matter how idiotic it is?

  650. #652 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    DLux: I have to know…are you in Omaha?

  651. #653 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    Sigh. Is there some sort of idiot tag-team device out there that you people are hooked up to?

    that would be the Catholic League, wouldn’t it?

    Apparently more energy and focus than even muslim extremists, with at least as much ignorance and stupidity thrown in for good measure.

    Though I rather thought there were some posts in the thread on desecrating the Qu’ran that would give the Catholic League drones a run for their money.

  652. #654 mayhempix
    July 17, 2008

    bigot |?big?t|
    noun
    a person who is bigoted See note at religious zealot .
    ORIGIN late 16th cent.(denoting a superstitious religious hypocrite): from French, of unknown origin.

    Thesaurus
    bigot
    noun
    chauvinist, partisan, sectarian; racist, sexist, homophobe, dogmatist, jingoist. See note at zealot .

    Sound familiar Ray?
    Let he who casts the first stone etc…

  653. #655 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    mayhempix,
    I am none of these…while your atheistic friends here are…can’t handle the title of BIGOT now can you????

  654. #656 gdlchmst
    July 17, 2008

    Criticising someone’s ideas and beliefs is bigotry.

    Oh noes, the society is built on bigotry, what with all the debates and education. Seriously, Ray, come back after you’ve completed grade school.

  655. #657 Charlie Foxtrot
    July 17, 2008

    Hey PZ,

    Didya know about the squid disection that the Museum Victoria was doing today?

    (Link at #377)

  656. #658 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    I am none of these…while your atheistic friends here are…can’t handle the title of BIGOT now can you????

    Just checking here — do you have some kind of neurological disorder which prevents you from controlling the number of times your right pinky comes down on the bottom row of your keyboard? Because I don’t want to make fun of you if you do.

  657. #659 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, please answer my question. Is there any Catholic bullshit you DON’T believe, or do you buy all of it? I’m just trying to find out how gullible you are.

  658. #660 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    BobC,
    I believe EVERYTHING the Pope says since he is the Vicor of Christ, the heir to St. Peter…you should too, and the first thing you can do is put some soap in your mouth you nasty boy, you….

  659. #661 Dustin
    July 17, 2008

    you should too, and the first thing you can do is put some soap in your mouth you nasty boy, you….

    Is soap the Catholic code-word for “penis”?

  660. #662 Kel
    July 17, 2008

    @ray

    You say you don’t hte Christians, yet you call our Lord a cracker…need I say more.

    Ray, don’t you find it even more weird that you call a cracker your lord?

  661. #663 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    I am none of these…while your atheistic friends here are…can’t handle the title of BIGOT now can you????

    Do you have a picture of yourself I can add to the definition here?

  662. #664 craig
    July 17, 2008

    “Oh noes, the society is built on bigotry, what with all the debates and education. “

    Yes, that’s why these righteous Christians oppose science at every turn. They’re fighting the evil hatred and bigotry that science requires to advance.
    Those sick, bigoted scientists with their journals of bigotry – Science and Nature, consisting of nothing but these bigoted scientists continual attempts to oppress each other.

  663. #665 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    “I believe EVERYTHING the Pope says since he is the Vicor of Christ, the heir to St. Peter”

    OK. Thanks for answering my question. Now I’m absolutely certain you’re a stupid asshole.

  664. #666 gdlchmst
    July 17, 2008

    I am none of these…while your atheistic friends here are…can’t handle the title of BIGOT now can you????

    Christ save me. I can no longer handle Ray’s capital bigot.

  665. #667 False Prophet
    July 17, 2008

    Heck, I’ll take on Donahue for his Irish-ness: where does an Irishman get off telling a Hispanic how to express his Catholic faith? ;-)

  666. #668 Neural T
    July 17, 2008

    Yeah, we’re deep into troll country, now.

  667. #669 craig
    July 17, 2008

    “I believe EVERYTHING the Pope says since he is the Vicor of Christ, the heir to St. Peter”

    So since he directed that child rapists in the priesthood be hidden and protected from prosecution, you think that’s good too?

    You sick fuck.

  668. #670 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, do you like little boys?

  669. #671 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    do you have some kind of neurological disorder which prevents you from controlling the number of times your right pinky comes down on the bottom row of your keyboard?

    strangely enough, I’ve notice that the insane often misuse ellipses.

    I think they are trying to physically demonstrate that their brain is working overtime to spin up irrational defense mechanisms.

    You’ll note the amount of projection and denial exhibited by them is proportional to the number of misused ellipses.

  670. #672 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    craig,
    That is an outright lie and you know it…if it makes you feel good to falsely impune the Vicar of Christ, then by all means, do what you must (at the cost of your soul)….but please, state facts, not fairy tales!

  671. #673 craig
    July 17, 2008

    Ok, I knew Ray was a troll, but now I suspect he’s probably not even religious. Just bored.

  672. #674 mayhempix
    July 17, 2008

    The “superstitious religious hypocrite” known as Ray has put me to sleep… good night all.

  673. #675 Max Verret
    July 17, 2008

    Re: DKEW #480

    It really should be breast-beating. That’s a demonstrable display of remorse. After it became known that Mrs. Kroll had been fired there were several posts to the effect that they did not intend to get anyone fired, that they regretted she got fired and some noted that they were going to write to 800-Flowers to ask if they would reconsider. I think that is a kind of demonstration of remorse which would generally come under the definition of breast-beating.

  674. #676 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    BobC,
    As are you.

  675. #677 Brownian, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, you’re funny.

  676. #678 gdlchmst
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, do you like little boys?

    But Ray is a little boy… Not that there is anything wrong with that.

  677. #679 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Brownian, OM,
    Thanks!!

  678. #680 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Yeah, it’s turned into a real moron-a-thon here, and I’m all out of troll-food.

  679. #681 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, since you blindly believe everything the pope says, you most certainly believe in the Resurrection. The Resurrection has some problems. Your dead Jebus was decomposing for 3 days, his internal organs were rotting, his corpse was infested with maggots, and the smell was horrible. What I’m wondering is, how can you be so hopelessly stupid to believe this idiotic story? Are you insane? What’s your problem, moron?

  680. #682 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    The scientific, atheistic hypocrite known as mayhempix has kept me awake….bring it on!!

  681. #683 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    BobC,
    Of course I believe in the resuurection…don’t you? Since Christ was the Son of God, His body was glorified, and thus incapable of decay…read your Bible BobC, you need an education!!

  682. #684 gdlchmst
    July 17, 2008

    Ray, I am really serious this time. Stay in school. Learn some grammer and learn how to spell. God knows you need it.

  683. #685 mayhempix
    July 17, 2008

    …under the definition of breast-beating.
    Posted by: Max Verret | July 17, 2008 1:29 AM

    I prefer breast-feeding myself.

    A final good night.

  684. #686 Brian
    July 17, 2008

    A few people brought up celiacs. I’m not sure if they were real questions or just snarky comments, but here is an answer: The Church allows people with celiacs two options. They can take a low gluten host or they can choose to receive only the wine if they talk to the priest about it first. Catholic teaching states that the fullness of the body and blood of Christ exists in either of the species of the Eucharist. In other words, if you just take the bread or you just take the wine you get everything you need. This is also convenient for alcoholics. So yes, there is a way for them to “stay in the club.” I know that doesn’t have anything to do with the conversation but hopefully some of you appreciate the little piece of trivia. Of course, I contribute this information with the hope that you don’t start trying to desecrate the wine too.

  685. #687 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Jebus was dead for 3 days but he didn’t decompose. You’re really proud of your stupidity, aren’t you?

    How about evolution? You accept it? Do you agree people, including Jebus, share an ancestor with the chimps?

  686. #688 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Learn some grammer and learn how to spell.

    Ahem.

  687. #689 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Brian,
    You do a great job of imparting God’s teachings until you get trite and state “This is also convenient for alcoholics. So yes, there is a way for them to “stay in the club.”” Perhaos this was just a snarky comment on your part.

  688. #690 gdlchmst
    July 17, 2008

    Of course I believe in the resuurection…don’t you? Since Christ was the Son of God, His body was glorified, and thus incapable of decay…read your Bible BobC, you need an education!!

    Your logic just blew my mind. Why, I haven’t heard logic like that since before I thought girls were icky.

  689. #691 Kel
    July 17, 2008

    Of course I believe in the resuurection…don’t you? Since Christ was the Son of God, His body was glorified, and thus incapable of decay…read your Bible

    I’m calling Poe

  690. #692 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Ray is not a bad specimen… but I’ve seen better.

    Brownian, OM,
    Thanks!!

    It’s cute to see a creature so starved for affection that even disdain is seen as a balm. You done a good thing, Brownian.

  691. #693 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    BobC,
    Simply put…NO, I do not believe people share an ancestor with the chimps. Do you exibit such faith?

  692. #694 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Brian, #686

    Thanks for explaining that. That was a point raised by several people over the posts on the topic.

    Is that doctrine, though, or just an arrangement made by some (dare I say) liberal priests to their individual communities?

  693. #695 Brownian, OM
    July 17, 2008

    That is an outright lie and you know it…if it makes you feel good to falsely impune the Vicar of Christ, then by all means, do what you must (at the cost of your soul)….but please, state facts, not fairy tales!

    For someone who BELIEVES everything the Pope says, Ray sure hasen’t bothered to familiarise himself with much of what he has said, in this case the Crimen Sollicitationis he wrote in 2001. Of course, he wasn’t the Pope at that time, so Catholics are all off the hook.

    Whee! Hooray for moral loopholes!

  694. #696 Charlie Foxtrot
    July 17, 2008

    Simply put…NO, I do not believe people share an ancestor with the chimps. Do you exibit such faith?

    Pretty sure the Pope does.

    Where does that put you? Troll or blasphemer?

  695. #697 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    You all are a hoot…I’m sure Satan is licking his chops over the likes of you….but I do have a job (white collar by the way…do know how to manage and spell), so I must sign off….hopefully see all you hell-bound atheists here again soon.
    -Ray

  696. #698 gdlchmst
    July 17, 2008

    Learn some grammer and learn how to spell.

    Ahem.

    Oh the shame. No, actually it was meant to be ironic. Get it? No? Okay, I’ll just stop embarrassing myself now.

  697. #699 Ken Cope
    July 17, 2008

    I’m calling Poe

    Poe? I’m not certain Ray’s passed the Turing Test yet.

    Yet, that’s rather the point of Poe. There is nothing so batshit insane that somebody sincere won’t actually shout it at us with multiple exclamation marks. Mock ‘em all, I say.

  698. #700 John Scanlon FCD
    July 17, 2008

    I tried the Wordle thing again (click name for link) and this time, using the url for this post rather than the main page, get visible ‘Crackers’ (with and without capitalization). Still no ‘fucktard’, though… I wonder if Wordle’s algorithm includes a profanity filter?

  699. #701 craig
    July 17, 2008

    Nope Ray, it’s a documented fact, the pope authored a policy of protecting priests from accusations.

    You’re funny, Ray, but I doubt you’re a Catholic.

  700. #702 Brownian, OM
    July 17, 2008

    NO, I do not believe people share an ancestor with the chimps. Do you exibit such faith?

    Ah. Obviously, Ray doesn’t believe EVERYTHING the Pope says.

  701. #703 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I’m calling Poe

    Once again, you have Poe’s Law backwards. You can only use it to argue that something isn’t a parody of religious thought, not that it is, because no matter how ludicrous the thought is, there’s someone who actually believes it.

  702. #704 Ray
    July 17, 2008

    Born, raised, and practicing Craig. And your accusation is quite false.

  703. #705 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Ray is a creationist.

    Ray, you’re the reason I ridicule Christians. Your denial of evolution requires the rejection of almost every branch of science. To be a creationist a person has to go way out of his way to know nothing. I never meant a creationist who wasn’t willfully ignorant.

    The problem with creationists is not their hopeless stupidity. Their problem is their never ending attacks against science education, and their brainwashing of young gullible children. The creationists are good for nothing but slowing down human progress and the world would be better off to be rid of them.

    By the way your previous pope accepted evolution. Apparently you only agree with the pope when he invokes the Christian Sky Fairy.

  704. #706 Neural T
    July 17, 2008

    If you’re a celiac alcoholic, that’s God’s way of telling you that he doesn’t want you.

  705. #707 craig
    July 17, 2008

    Actually the NEW Pope doesn’t believe in evolution, if I remember correctly.

    The OLD Pope John Paul II did, issued an encyclical or whatever the fuck they’re called stated that evolution had enough proof it must be considered as fact. This after Paul whateverthefuck had proclaimed it as a reasonable theory back in the 60s.

    So, since Popes are infallible, that means that up until a few years ago, our ancestors were shared with chimps… but *poof*, reality got changed recently. Not our idea of what happened, but literally WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

    Amazing shit, that popitude stuff.

  706. #708 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I’m sure Satan is licking his chops over the likes of you…

    Satan has chops? And a tongue? And, I suppose, hooves and horns and is red.

    These cretins want us to respect these beliefs?

  707. #709 themadlolscientist, FCD
    July 17, 2008

    Wait, what? I’m armed with a cyberpistol? Is that what we atheist brigands use to rob trucks trundling down the tubes of the internet?

    As long as you don’t harm or endanger any kittehs while you’re at it, it’s all good. Kittehs have the right of way at all times. It’s an Internet tradition that, sad to say, some people aren’t aware of.

    =^.^=

  708. #710 shonny
    July 17, 2008

    Imagine being represented by that braying Foley fool.
    But then again, see what the US is represented by . . .

  709. #711 kubenzi
    July 17, 2008

    wow wow WOW

    are you people kidding me? i thought you were my rational cohorts.

    being a citizen of Denver,the city is getting prepared for protests on an epic fucking leveal.and that is the democrat convention

    i will assure you right now,and please,mark my words,pointing out atheist protesters at the republican convention would be like pointing out WALDO AS HONG KIONG BURNS TO THE GROUND

    youve got to be kidding me

  710. #712 Brian
    July 17, 2008

    Ray,
    I mentioned the thing about comments to simply point out that they share a similar burden as those who suffer from celiacs. As for the “staying in the club” part, I was quoting a previous post. Yes, it was probably snarky but it was actually aimed at those arguing with you. I take it back.

    Wowbagger,
    Thats the teaching of the US Catholic Bishops. My understanding is that there is still some confusion between the US teaching and the teaching of Rome, but I’m not knowledgeable enough to comment on that. Since you bring it up, the arrangement of (liberal) priests is to consecrate a rice wafer. This is against the rules that state the host must be made of wheat. Sorry, I don’t remember why it should be wheat though.

  711. #713 Brownian, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Your denial of evolution requires the rejection of almost every branch of science.

    …and the Pope’s own beliefs.

    Uh-oh, SpaghettiOs!

  712. #714 Ken Cope
    July 17, 2008

    I need a fix cuz I’m going down
    Down to the bits that I left uptown
    I need a fix cuz I’m going down

    Mother Superior jumped the gun
    Mother Superior jumped the gun
    Mother Superior jumped the gun
    Mother Superior jumped the gun

    Happineth
    Ith a warm thyberpithtol
    Happineth
    Ith a warm thyberpithtol
    Type type post post

  713. #715 gdlchmst
    July 17, 2008

    Amazing shit, that popitude stuff.

    Always amazes me. When I first read about the catholic church at the age of four, I seriously thought that I was reading a piece of fiction.

  714. #716 Futility
    July 17, 2008

    We Catholics can rely on a moral text that governs our behaviour. Were you to as well you would realize that you punish the sinner and not the sinned against. Those children do not deserve the pain and cramps that could arise from not eating tonight. … Actions have consequences and PZ – as a scientist – should know this. He doesn’t though possibly because he has no moral guidance. Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 16, 2008 8:00 PM

    The same argument could be used to defend bank-robbers from being incarcerated since ‘their children might have no food tonight.’ You really don’t get it, do you? The husband made the death threats using his wife’s email account (who apparently is not that sorry about that either). All people did here was forward it to the company which decided to fire her. Nobody here is responsible for sending the threats nor firing her. Actions do have consequences, as this moron catholic husband should have known! It appears that the moral guidance given by your holy text is not worth much. Almost all atheists I know have a better developed moral compass than a lot of religious people I know (but some Xtians do have a good moral compass, but this came not about by the holy book but by what they were taught by others!)

    You’re going to use the Bible to prove something to people who, on average, think the whole thing is a bloodthirsty Fairy Tale? You’re dumber than you look. Can you see me??? Posted by: Brian F | July 16, 2008 8:06 PM

    Xtians do seem to have trouble with metaphors.

  715. #717 Andrew B.
    July 17, 2008

    On the matter of celiacs and the crackers, since it keeps coming up… The crackers apparently must be made of wheat. But! Catholics believe that, since Jesus is risen, his body and blood are inseparable, and thus contained in both bread and wine. So you could just drink the wine and be ok. If you’re a celiac with an allergy to grapes or alcohol, though… tough! It’s hell for you!

    Oh, and for crying out loud – nobody claims that you can tell the difference between jebusitized crackers and regular crackers. My personal favorite desecration scenario – Draw faces and tape speech balloons to ‘em. Have them act out little plays.

  716. #718 Jim1138
    July 17, 2008

    Troll Ray blathers:
    And due to your atheism, I have to live next door to the guy who’s watching snuff porn and scoping his next victim. When I complain about this, I’m told “don’t watch it” or “turn the channel.”

    That’s quite a consequence! Which other Catholic is forced to live next door to a snuff porn watcher because of my atheisim? I’m jealous! Ken! Where do I get my Catholic?

    Wait a minute, Troll Ray, “don’t watch it or turn the channel”? You’re watching snuff porn too!?!

  717. #719 craig
    July 17, 2008

    “Satan has chops? And a tongue? And, I suppose, hooves and horns and is red.”

    Ya know, I’ve sometimes wondered why these dipshits don’t boycott Underwood Deviled Ham since it has a picture of ***SATAN*** on the package.

    Reminds me of back when I worked for Fisher-Price and got a call from a woman in Texas, upset that she walked into her kids room and saw the Activity Center (what some call a busy box) in the crib, and since a spinner had a star on it, and the star happened to be positioned upside-down at the moment, she wanted a refund.

    Apparently an upside-down star is a “satanic symbol.”

    We also got tons of calls because churches were circulating memos saying that one kids’ tape has lyrics “seek the devil” in them.
    (It was an old, traditional nonsense rhyme and the words were “seek a double.”)

    There is no underestimating the level of stupidity the religious can display.

  718. #720 Charlie Foxtrot
    July 17, 2008

    Yep – the new pope has replaced the old vatican’s chief astronomer with someone more wishy-washy on evolution.
    Link

    Smacks more of typical earthly political machinations that divine inspirations.

    Funny that…

  719. #721 bad Jim
    July 17, 2008

    We’re not dealing with normal Catholics here. Donohue, oddly, appears to reject evolution, so he’s definite on the fringe.

    I’m sure that most Catholics rank wafer abuse well below altar boy abuse (and lots of former altar boys confess to wafer abuse).

    I wonder, though, if P.Z. isn’t hoaxing us. He’s going to subject stacks of unconsecrated wafers to unspecified acts of desecration and then say, “Hah hah, fooled you.”

    He probably has been sent consecrated wafers, though (we his minions are a devious and resourceful sort) but he may conceivably have been sent unconsecrated wafers by equally crafty mackerel snappers (call it a denial of service attack). Are they all worth desecrating?

    Perhaps some consecrated hosts arrived from trusted minions which could be taken seriously… except, of course, they couldn’t. “Hoc est corpus.” Seriously?

  720. #722 Jim1138
    July 17, 2008

    Craig, the devil deviled the double.

  721. #723 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    The OLD Pope John Paul II did, issued an encyclical or whatever the fuck they’re called stated that evolution had enough proof it must be considered as fact

    There’s no such thing as “enough proof”; the proper phrase is “enough evidence”. He accepted evolution “as an effectively proven fact.”

  722. #724 craig
    July 17, 2008

    Jesus is risen? crackers? there’s a yeast joke in there somewhere.

  723. #725 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    thanks for the link, CF.

  724. #726 craig
    July 17, 2008

    ‘There’s no such thing as “enough proof”; the proper phrase is “enough evidence”. He accepted evolution “as an effectively proven fact.””

    yeah, yeah, fine, annoyance machine. Gimme a fucking break, it’s late and I’m dizzy.

  725. #727 ed
    July 17, 2008

    I read all 481 comments.Wow,all over a fucking cracker!

  726. #728 Jason
    July 17, 2008

    Peace be with you all. My name is Jason. I’m 20 and I am Roman Catholic. First of all I think it’s important to note that I am not here to condemn anyone. I think the problem here is that people just don’t understand. The Catholic Church no longer says that if you are not Catholic you are going to hell. Infact we have come to say that we as the Church founded by Christ (Who by the way is a historical figure) do hold the fullness of truth but that there are truths in other Christian denominations and even in other religions. God is the source of all good. God is love and there is definately good happening through other religions. Because there is that good we believe that there too is Christ. Even atheists, which I assume most of you are, do good things. I’m sure most of you have family and friends who you care about. I’m sure that most of you would prefer to help people rather than hurt them. This is also a good and thus God is in that whether He is recognized or not. So as a Church we believe that you don’t necessarily have to be Catholic to go to heaven. Now with the most holy Eucharist we believe and profess that the bread and wine at the words of consecration become for us the body, blood, soul and divinity of Jesus Christ. That host becomes Christ. Our God is there with us in that moment. He loves us so much that He was willing to humble Himself by becoming one of us in everything but sin. At the last supper the night before He died he took the bread gave it to His disciples and said, “take this all of you and eat it. This is my body, which will be given up for you.”(Refering to His death on the cross.) After the supper had ended He took the cup. Again He gave thanks and praise to the Father. He gave it to His disciples and said, “take this all of you and drink from it. This is the cup of my blood. The blood of the new and everlasting covanent. It will be shed for you and for all so that sins will be forgiven. Do this in memory of me.”(Again He is refering to His blood being shed on the cross for the forgiveness of our sins.) But He also said to remember Him by doing the same thing that He did. So when you refer to the consecrated host as a “cracker” and threaten to abuse it and defile it to us as Catholics you must know that you are doing those things to Christ. He is present there in that host. It is a spiritual presence. We can not see Him. The host does not change physically, but we believe He is there. That is why it is offensive. By the way there have been instances where the host has actually transformed into actual flesh or even pieces of a heart. And the wine has changed to real blood. There was once a priest who did not believe in the real presence and as he raised the host after consecration, it became a piece of an actual heart. Lets just say that afterwards he believed. You can look up the miracles online and I would highly recommend it. It’s very interesting. If you have any questions let me know. God Bless.

  727. #729 bastion
    July 17, 2008

    On Friday the Catholic League reported that Thomas E. Foley, a Virginia delegate to the Republican National Convention (RNC) in Minneapolis has asked that increased security be considered for the event in light of Myers’ threat to acquire and desecrate the Eucharist.

    Wait…so…the Republicans are having a mass at their convention???

    Or are the Republicans perhaps bringing consecrated hosts to the convention with them? No, no, that can’t be. Those security nuns would be tackling them ‘em before they got out of the church, especially now that the threat level in churches has been raised.

    So, what the ????

  728. #730 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Jason, yes, we get Homoiousianism.

    It’s old stuff.

  729. #731 craig
    July 17, 2008

    “So, what the ????”

    Maybe its just because, what with god being all desecrated and stuff, he won’t be able to protect them anymore?

  730. #732 Jim1138
    July 17, 2008

    Jason #728
    Jesus is a historical fact! The Jesus of the Bible? Where is your evidence? What have you been eating, crackers?

  731. #733 Neural T
    July 17, 2008

    I think some of them aren’t consecrated. Catholic News Agency said he got one wafer on Friday, but no services were held from the time he first asked for them (earlier that week) until Friday, so I don’t see how they would have been consecrated. On the other hand, if he received some early this week, then may be.

  732. #734 BobC
    July 17, 2008

    Jason, I was almost starting to think you were not too deluded for a Catholic until I read your “By the way there have been instances where the host has actually transformed into actual flesh or even pieces of a heart. And the wine has changed to real blood.”

    That’s really nuts man. Really batshit crazy. Do you know what the word ‘gullible’ means?

  733. #735 Ken Cope
    July 17, 2008

    Troll Ray

    I will not countenance Ray Troll being maligned in these threads!

    Ken! Where do I get my Catholic?

    Dunno. Mel Gibson won’t be streaming porn off of my router, whether he tries to tap my pre-N Ankh-Morpork, or my B&G Lancre. That would require numeracy, and some really patient decryption software.

    If you click on my name, that guy I’m pictured with drinking beer in Berkeley is not a Catholic, but I think most of us here would be honored to have him as a neighbor.

  734. #736 clinteas
    July 17, 2008

    Ray is a fake and a troll.Same BS about public school teachers abusing kids like under different name in the cracker thread.Then again,who cares.

    And still flogging the dead horse.

  735. #737 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Jason,

    We’ve had all of this explained to us many times; by many commenters on many posts. I don’t think there’s anyone here who isn’t aware of what you, as a catholic, believe happens.

    And that isn’t the point. It’s not even close to the point. Please read the post from the start (or, better yet, start at the very beginning with PZ’s first post on the issue) and save yourself a lot of time and energy.

  736. #738 eugene_X
    July 17, 2008

    Wear it with pride: PZ “Cyberpistol” Meyers. Got a nice ring to it, don’t it?

    You should look into getting a sidekick. Call him “the Empirical kid.”

  737. #739 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    BTW, Jason, I was once an (supposedly Catholic yet de-facto atheist) altar-boy back in the day. I recognise the snippets of liturgy in your post – I feel sad about those neurons I waste on retaining guff such as that.

    Pray for me, will ya? ;)

  738. #740 Ichthyic
    July 17, 2008

    nice example of stream of consciousness writing, Jason.

    why do you believe in miracles?

  739. #741 clinteas
    July 17, 2008

    Jason=Ray=Kenny

    Off to watch the Pope on TV.

  740. #742 bastion
    July 17, 2008

    At #62, Kobra said:
    Is a cyberpistol a way to compensate for a small e-penis?

    Ah, that might explain Foley’s concerns about P.Z.’s being cocked.

  741. #743 kubenzi
    July 17, 2008

    btw PZ,im your cyberholster

    you sexy thang

  742. #744 gdlchmst
    July 17, 2008

    The Catholic Church no longer says that if you are not Catholic you are going to hell [...] So as a Church we believe that you don’t necessarily have to be Catholic to go to heaven.

    So remind me the point of being a christian again.

    He loves us so much that He was willing to humble Himself by becoming one of us in everything but sin.

    But not humble enough to convert me personally.

    The host does not change physically, but we believe He is there. That is why it is offensive.

    Being offended doesn’t mean you are right.

    By the way there have been instances where the host has actually transformed into actual flesh or even pieces of a heart. And the wine has changed to real blood.

    Okay, but did you know that pigs could talk? Don’t believe me? Well, there have been instances where pigs have been seen talking. There were movies made about it. Let’s just say that after watching the movie I believed.

  743. #745 Brian
    July 17, 2008

    Mr. Morales,
    Homoiousianism is very old indeed. It dates to the 4th century and comes out of the Arian controversy. Of course, Jason wasn’t saying anything about the relationship between the substance of God the Father and Jesus the Son so I don’t understand why it was introduced here. In fact, I don’t see how it applies at all.

    This controversy has been wonderful because it introduced me to the scienceblogs. I’ve spent a lot of time reading these and I find them brilliant. Some of the comments however are disappointing. So many people (on both sides of the arguments) seem to be so sure of the things they write. Unfortunately, so many people are clearly talking out their asses. In my opinion, a good dose of humility and civility would do much to truly advance intellectual conversation. Just my two cents.

  744. #746 Michael
    July 17, 2008

    This is precisely the kind of deranged hysteria we have to protest against, I’m afraid.

    lol, they are certainly not afraid of PZ and it’s not the reason for increased security either, as PZ would have too much too loose if you tried an emotional stunt concerning the wafer. They are worried about someone in his choir that might try something foolish. A new breed? Sometimes it seems like all playground talking to me…

  745. #747 Charlie Foxtrot
    July 17, 2008

    @Jason #728

    Yeah yeah yeah – sat through all that when I was being brain-washed for my confirmation …ummm…27 years ago.

    It sure sounded like a crock-of-shite then, and it most certainly is a crock-of-shite now.

    I hope you cut and paste all that crud, it’d be a shame to have typed all that for so little result.

  746. #748 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Brian, did I say Homoiousianism?

    D’oh!

    Of course, I meant the Doctrine of the Homoousian.

    (still, there’s only one iota of difference… ;)

  747. #749 wrpd
    July 17, 2008

    Ray said:

    “oh, aren’t you clever with the coat hanger quote…what we wish for is people to commit to sacramental marriages and to stop the slaughter of the unborn. Big difference.”

    I fail to see the connection between marriage, sacramental otherwise, and abortion.
    Speaking of alcoholics I have a feeling that Ray has been sipping communion wine all night and is now completely detached from reality–I know it was a very short trip for him.

  748. #750 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Michael, watch out for those homophones. They slip past your guard very easily!

  749. #751 Jim1138
    July 17, 2008

    Charlie Foxtrot: Well said!

  750. #752 Brian
    July 17, 2008

    John,

    Its funny that you stumbled upon that little ‘i’ that makes so much difference. So much ink and blood has been spilled about that little letter in the course of Christian history. It just goes to show that there are so many better and ridiculous things to attack the church for. I fear I’ve strayed into the history of theology a bit too much. I can’t help it. It fascinates me. I’ll direct future comments back to the foolish comments of Thomas Foley.

  751. #753 Ryan Cunningham
    July 17, 2008

    “You say you don’t hate Christians, yet you call our Lord a cracker…need I say more.”

    Yes, Ray. You need to explain to us how your Lord is any different than all the other crackers out there! By every test we can POSSIBLY imagine, YOUR GOD IS A CRACKER. This isn’t a matter of belief. It’s a fact. Nobody can tell the difference! Not even you!

    If you’re so motivated, instead of spending all this time harassing us here, how about you go take one MILLION dollars away from a lousy atheist named James Randi? Show him a wafer turning into God and give his money to the church. Prove us wrong. Laugh at all of us. Or maybe even save our souls (I know I’d be convinced.)

    Here’s his website: http://www.randi.org/joom/challenge-info.html

    Do you REALLY believe wafers turn into the flesh of Christ? If you did, you wouldn’t be here arguing with us. You’d be getting that million dollars for God!

  752. #754 wrpd
    July 17, 2008

    Jason, please talk to your priest about transubstantiation.

  753. #755 Pandora Neurospora
    July 17, 2008

    “Thank God for world youth day and the Pope’s participation. With the millions of worldwide youth that are attending, we can only hope that the next generation will stamp out the angry, hate-filled atheistic voices such as PZ Myers and the respondants we see here. The Spirit is alive!!”

    Sadly there are a few things kinda wrong with your spiel. Millions wont be attending World Youth Day. In fact only 500,000 are expected to attend the last big event. So even if they do have more unregistered ‘pilgrims’ attend, It would be highly unlikely to reach a million let alone millions of ‘youth’.

    Then there is your proclamation of ‘The Spirit is alive’. I don’t know about other parts but in Australia it turns out that Australia’s youth are turning more and more away from religion and embracing things like spirituality, atheism, humanism etc.

    Oh and while we are thanking ‘god’, lets also thank him for the congestion around Sydney, the amount of money being spent by the NSW Government, the APEC style security (though those stupid laws have been repelled the fences do remain) and the rudeness of the pilgrims which is all of result of World Youth Day. =)

  754. #756 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    By the way there have been instances where the host has actually transformed into actual flesh or even pieces of a heart. And the wine has changed to real blood. There was once a priest who did not believe in the real presence and as he raised the host after consecration, it became a piece of an actual heart. Lets just say that afterwards he believed.

    Jason, I cannot respect someone so dishonest as to state such things as if they knew they were true and so arrogant as to think anyone would believe it on their say so. “Let’s just say” that your head is full of maggots and that’s why you’re so stupid and so sure of absurdities.

  755. #757 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    I didn’t “stumble” on it, Brian.

    The history of Christianity correlates to the history of societal control.

    Propaganda is not a new concept.

  756. #758 Brownian, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Propaganda is not a new concept.

    No, that’s what all the other religions do. I know it looks exactly the same as what the Catholic Church does, but the similarities are restricted to the accidents, not the substance.

    That totally reminds me of something….

  757. #759 Richard Walker
    July 17, 2008

    @David Carson Nice one! Much better than my plaintive cry to “leave the cracker aloooooone *sob*”.

    @John Morales don’t bee sew homophonic :)

  758. #760 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Aww, Richard. Wanna take all the fun outta my life?

  759. #761 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    So many people (on both sides of the arguments) seem to be so sure of the things they write. Unfortunately, so many people are clearly talking out their asses.

    False equivalence and multiple overgeneralizations. Some people are sure of the things they write because they’re knowledgeable and double check their claims. That you seem quite sure of what you write about Catholicism is not a negative against you, so cut the hypocrisy.

    In my opinion, a good dose of humility and civility would do much to truly advance intellectual conversation.

    If you value humility so much, you should practice it instead of lecturing others about it. As for civility, trolling and lying are uncivil, to which contempt is an appropriate response. We do have civil, intelligent conversations around here when not infested with trolls and liars; it’s a huge (and arrogant) mistake to judge this place by what goes on in troll threads, especially in the last few days.

  760. #762 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I read all 481 comments.Wow,all over a fucking cracker!

    You seem to have missed 6-7 thousand previous comments on the subject.

  761. #763 DrFrank
    July 17, 2008

    Wait, if some people in the US are descended from Irish people, then why are there still Irish people?

  762. #764 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    yeah, yeah, fine, annoyance machine. Gimme a fucking break, it’s late and I’m dizzy.

    Fuck you for your pathetically defensive overreaction to my making a simple point.

  763. #765 Brian
    July 17, 2008

    Truth Machine,

    I’m sorry to have upset you. That certainly wasn’t my intention. I didn’t mean to make a “false equivalence”. I didn’t meant to imply that those people are necessarily one and the same. I hope you do see how the combination of those two things could be frustrating for me. It makes it difficult to tell whats right and whats nonsense.

    I certainly haven’t meant to lie or troll but to be honest I don’t really know what trolling is. I started out by trying to answer some questions. Perhaps I got carried away and overstepped my bounds. If thats the case I apologize.

    You make a very good point about not judging the comments on PZ Myers based on whats occurred in the past few days. Surely this is not normal. I’ve enjoyed reading past posts from before this all started. I hoped to continue to be a part of the conversation after this nonsense died down but I don’t want to upset anyone. I’ll keep my thoughts to myself.

  764. #766 Rey Fox
    July 17, 2008

    Ah, Ray’s just too boring. Bring back Jenn with her crazy sexual hangups and dominatrix talk, she was fun.

    Other random bits of crazy stew:
    “Other than that, turn the Eucharists you have recieved over to the nearest Catholic Church and get a life.”

    STEP AWAY FROM THE CRACKERS AND NO ONE GETS HURT!

    “The Lamb of God takes away the sins of the humble but his wrath is upon the wicked ones. It is interesting why would anyone do violence to a lamb!”

    See that’s why you gotta be wary of Jesus, he’ll give you the big sorrowful lamb-eyes and you’ll think he’s just a helpless little thing, and then the second your back is turned…BAM! Out with the wrath.

    “There is absolutely nothing you can do to the Body of Christ. There is nothing that could be worse than what He suffered during His Passion and what He continues to suffer today at the hands of His children.”

    Yeah. That’s what we’ve been saying all along, in those moments in which we have, for the sake of argument, taken the position that the Eucharist is somehow real. So what’s the big deal with taking one out of a church? Oh yeah, of course, it’s spooky stories and mind control. Gotcha.

    “The desecration of the Eucharist, the body of the one God, is extremely imprudent, regardless of what you believe or what point you are trying to make.”

    I don’t think anyone is going to heed this advice, but seriously, crazy Catholics? The more you pile on in this manner, the more likely PZ is going to do…something.

    Somewhat bigger fish to fry – Rooke:
    “His insults represent the most socially inept form of moral turpitude conceivable.”

    I find it impossible to take seriously anyone who, with a straight face, uses the word “turpitude”.

    “PZ ignores the most basic ground rule of debate.”

    Oh really? A bunch of thuggish members of one of the most populous religions on Earth, one backed by a rich multinational organization, assault and threaten to expel from college one of their own for not following one of their silly weekly rituals to the letter? And now you somehow think you deserve a proper debate?!

    This one’s for you, Pete:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LoXfiSU_wqE

  765. #767 Richard
    July 17, 2008

    Speaking of substance and accidents, here’s a good article on transubstantiation.

    http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/1993/9307iron.asp

    And, on the Eucharist in general

    http://www.catholic.com/library/Christ_in_the_Eucharist.asp

    Cheers

  766. #768 Bride of Shrek OM
    July 17, 2008

    Clinteas @ #741

    Got the day off so I’m watching the hysteria on Channel 7 whilst preparing my (immodestly self named) famous beef burgundy. Nearly peed my pants at the fact the satellite keeps dicking around and the live coverage is being blacked out, coincidentally every time they go in for a close up of that smug bastard’s face. Seems like there may be a God after all- but he definately ain’t a Catholic.

  767. #769 Tenorino
    July 17, 2008

    Paranoia and fear mongering… isn’t that the basic republican electoral strategy?

  768. #770 bad Jim
    July 17, 2008

    We’re not dealing with normal Catholics here. Donohue, oddly, appears to reject evolution, so he’s definite on the fringe.

    I’m sure that most Catholics rank wafer abuse well below altar boy abuse (and lots of former altar boys confess to wafer abuse).

    I wonder, though, if P.Z. isn’t hoaxing us. He’s going to subject stacks of unconsecrated wafers to unspecified acts of desecration and then say, “Hah hah, fooled you.”

    He probably has been sent consecrated wafers, though (we his minions are a devious and resourceful sort) but he may conceivably have been sent unconsecrated wafers by equally crafty mackerel snappers (call it a denial of service attack). Are they all worth desecrating?

    Perhaps some consecrated hosts arrived from trusted minions which could be taken seriously… except, of course, they couldn’t. “Hoc est corpus.” Seriously?

  769. #771 Chris
    July 17, 2008

    Am I the only one who thinks that a Christian calling an ATHEIST a “bigot” is just hilariously funny?

    By definition, a “bigot” is a “religious hypocrite.”

    So, IMPOV “bigot” is a much more fitting characterisation for a Christian. But certainly NOT for an Atheist.

  770. #772 bric
    July 17, 2008

    Let’s keep this in perspective chaps

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYg_oSEV-XM&feature=related

  771. #773 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I’m sorry to have upset you.

    You’re jumping to a conclusion and personalizing things. You put out a rather generalized criticism against a whole slew of unspecified persons, and I responded specifically you you and your comments; that’s all. Haven’t you ever been in a conversation where not everyone agreed with you, and someone called you out on what you said, without being “upset”?

    I hoped to continue to be a part of the conversation after this nonsense died down but I don’t want to upset anyone. I’ll keep my thoughts to myself.

    Your way overreacting, and you really should work on that fragile ego. Feel free to share your thoughts, but you might want to consider just how valid they are first if you’re so afraid of someone having a negative reaction. Best though that you lose the fear.

  772. #774 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    “you you” -> “to you”, “Your way” -> “You’re way”. Sigh.

  773. #775 Chris
    July 17, 2008

    @ DrFrank #763
    Wait, if some people in the US are descended from Irish people, then why are there still Irish people?

    I suggest you watch Monty Python’s Meaning of Life.

  774. #776 Jim1138
    July 17, 2008

    Jason #728 This seems to be a common theme with evangelistic nut cases. They hear a cute or fantastic story and believe it true without any evidence. “Cracker Becomes Quivering Heart Flesh”! Read all about it! “Mary Appears on Freeway Wall”! Tune in at 6 o’clock for the full story! “One of Man’s Nine Crushed Vertebrae Healed by Praying to St. Nick” (Weren’t his prayers good enough to prevent this from happening in the first place)?

    These kind of stories seem to make the rounds in the chain e-mails. The comments indicate they believe them. Why do they get wigged out when I laugh at them? Why do they think I get wigged out when when one of these wackos is elected President with access to The Button?

  775. #777 aleph1=c
    July 17, 2008

    @Chris #775

    I think DrFrank is making a joke about the “if we came from monkeys…” thing. I’ve seen The Meaning of Life, but I don’t remember the reference. Please elaborate.

  776. #778 clinteas
    July 17, 2008

    Bride of Shrek,

    highlights of the day : Kevin Rudd saying “Your holiness”,Pope blessing the guy with 3 cancers,sure thats going to fix him,and oh,surprise,we didnt get an apology for child abuse after all !

    Some hot chicks in the crowds tho from what I could tell,and to think they all have to swallow !
    Whats the best pick up line with them I wonder : “Can I put my host in your tabernacle?”

  777. #779 Raiko
    July 17, 2008

    He said it was “eye-opening” to read the people who supported Myers’ action. Even at his age of 63, Foley said, he had never “personally encountered such bigotry.”

    Irony. It hits you like a brick!

  778. #780 Pandora Neurospora
    July 17, 2008

    ‘No, but I did snort tea out of my nose when I read this. Come on, someone make an animation!’

    If someone does make an animation, it totally must have ‘Bad Case Of Loving You (Doctor, Doctor)’ by Robert Palmer playing during it. It would be…awesome.

  779. #781 Brian W.
    July 17, 2008

    I stand by my argument that any decent god would be made of cheese and not crackers. Cheese would go so much better with the wine.

  780. #782 Lulu
    July 17, 2008

    Accost someone taking the sacrament to the sick? Ha. Actually, the best way to secure a Host would be to go through the communion line, receive the wafer, place it in your mouth (hold it lightly with your teeth to keep it from touching your tongue or the roof of your mouth), and transfer it to your hands when you’re back at your pew, kneeling and pretending to pray (hands in prayer position in front of your mouth).

    Or you could leave the church immediately after receiving the Host (a lot of actual Catholics do) and make a run for it.

    Or snatch some from the tabernacle. They’re not guarded. Yet.

  781. #783 Raiko
    July 17, 2008

    Addon:
    The wafers may not be laying around, but you can surely, surely get to them rather easily – pre-packaged with juice!

    http://www.kingdom.com/ProductInfo.aspx?productid=CCW210

  782. #784 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    It’s OK Brian, I’m sure some priests provide “cheese*”.

    * OK, smegma, but what the hey. Close enough.

  783. #785 Pandora Neurospora
    July 17, 2008

    Kevin Rudd saying “Your holiness”
    Isn’t Kevin Rudd Catholic?

  784. #786 aleph1=c
    July 17, 2008

    Just thought of a new word: smegmata

  785. #787 pcarini
    July 17, 2008

    Fr. (fucker?) J clear back at #37

    [horrible rant] … PZ you are the atheist version of the KKK. I don’t see any difference between their ignorant bigotry and yours. Cheers, Fr. J

    Cheers? Cheers?! C’mon.. you could at least be man enough to end your rant without the empty goddamn complementary closing at the end. I don’t care if it was intended to be ironic, it just underscores the dishonest, insulting nature of the entire post. “Fuck off and die” would have fit the rest of it perfectly, but with your delicate sensibilities you might prefer “rot in hell for eternity” instead. This passive-agressive “Cheers” shit just gives the impression that you have trouble making eye-contact when talking to people.

    While I’m on the topic of style, Ray’s excessive use of ellipses makes it look like he gets winded after typing a sentence (I have a good imagination).

  786. #788 Brian
    July 17, 2008

    I did jump to the conclusion that you were upset because of the manner in which you responded. You seemed to misinterpret my original comment and then launch personal attacks by calling me a liar. That seemed rash. You criticize me for jumping to conclusions but you have done that yourself. You assume I have a fragile ego and that I’m afraid of people reacting poorly to my comments. That cannot be further from the truth. I don’t care what you think of me or how you react. I offered an apology to try to appease you. I find your comments to be quite rude and filled with far too much name calling. I don’t think that provides a healthy environment for true discussion. I was hoping a few platitudes would soften you up for the good of everyone. I’m sure you’ll tell me why that was foolish of me and I will concede the win to you because I’ve wasted too much time already.

  787. #789 the strangest brew
    July 17, 2008

    #728

    “By the way there have been instances where the host has actually transformed into actual flesh or even pieces of a heart. And the wine has changed to real blood. There was once a priest who did not believe in the real presence and as he raised the host after consecration, it became a piece of an actual heart. Lets just say that afterwards he believed. You can look up the miracles online and I would highly recommend it. It’s very interesting”

    And yet you wonder why religion is criticised…

    If you believe that nonsense then you really are screwed…by the way people lie even priests and especially pseudo religious web sites…in fact religion would collapse if the truth really were told instead of the bullshit that passes for dogmatic indoctrination…

    That is why their are so many damaged and twisted bunnies in western religion…they know they have to make greater and greater claims of sensationalism to keep hood winking the hood winked…it warps what little brain they have left you see…
    How you waste your intelligence is your choice…consider maybe not inflicting your delusional claptrap on the rational…that might be a valuable clue as to how to behave in society…’Thou shalt not bear false witness’…methinks even Christians must abide by that tenant…is it not in their constitution or something? or is being a lying sunbeam for jebus…quite acceptable then? …

    Check a few facts before claiming nonsense…it might help in your defence…

  788. #790 Christophe Thill
    July 17, 2008

    Is a cyberpistol more dangerous than a Holy Handgrenade?

  789. #791 craig
    July 17, 2008

    “Fuck you for your pathetically defensive overreaction to my making a simple point.”

    Okay, I take it back. You’re actually a charming fellow.

  790. #792 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Brian @788: Probably because you not au fait with Pharyngula.

    Think of it as a moderated (as much as PZ moderates) alt. usenet group, with lots of visitors and many regulars.

    Thing is, there’s no FAQ. Lurking some (or backreading) will enlighten you.

  791. #793 pcarini
    July 17, 2008

    the strangest brew @ #789 “[...ellipsis...filled...post...]

    Do you have to catch your breath after each sentence fragment, or what? Are you quote-mining your own thoughts?

    (I was just making fun of Ray for the same, so I can’t justify letting you off the hook.)

  792. #794 craig
    July 17, 2008

    Oh, and fuck you too for reacting so defensively to my snarky acknowledgment of your pedantry. :)

    Gosh, this is fun!

    Feh.

  793. #795 Rayven Alandria
    July 17, 2008

    Is that a cyberpistol in your packet or are you just happy to see me?

  794. #796 aleph1=c
    July 17, 2008

    the strangest brew wrote @789:

    Christians must abide by that tenant

    So, Christians, it’s not enough that the snuff porn-watching atheist lives next door. Now he actually lives in your house!

    Sorry, tsb, couldn’t help it.

  795. #797 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I was hoping a few platitudes would soften you up for the good of everyone.

    This, like everything else in your ridiculous response, demonstrates a fundamentally dishonest personality.

  796. #798 scooter
    July 17, 2008

    What is interesting about the newly discovered Cat-Lick kooks, is their intense oppression-envy of Black Folks and probably Jews as well.

    On my you tube site I got spammed by a Kook-lick with all the arguments we’ve been hearing.

    First, ‘If this were about Blacks or Gays, there would be an uproar!!!” I pointed him to proper links where I had slammed Larry Craig and Ted Haggard, also Islamotards, also African American Homophobic Baptards.

    THEN, the same guy accused me of being KKK. These Kook-licks love to pull the KKK card because they think it puts them in the same oppression boat with Blacks and Jews.

    However the KKK dropped Catholics from their Hate list some time ago, and Catlicks are now welcome to join, so there’s a little more irony in the fire on the cross at the cracker roast for ya.

    You Tube Eucharist Challenge

  797. #799 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Okay, I take it back. You’re actually a charming fellow.

    Your non sequiturs are as good as anything Ray could muster.

    Oh, and fuck you too for reacting so defensively to my snarky acknowledgment of your pedantry. :)

    My response was appropriate; yours was not.

    Feh.

    Indeed.

  798. #800 Nick Gotts
    July 17, 2008

    Paul is the voice from the outer world! He is the Mahdi! – Dustin

    Not only that, but the Once and Future King, the Maitreya Buddha, and the Kwisatz Haderach! All Hail our Tentacled Overlord!

  799. #801 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Think of it as a moderated (as much as PZ moderates)

    Other than rare disemvowelings and rarer banishment to the dungeon, he doesn’t; this is nothing like a moderated group.

  800. #802 Chris
    July 17, 2008

    @aleph1=c #777

    Referring to the “every sperm is sacred” scene.

  801. #803 scooter
    July 17, 2008

    #724

    there’s a yeast joke in there somewhere.

    No actually there is no Leavity to be found

    BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!
    I totally cracker myself up.

    You tube Eucharist Challenge

  802. #804 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    You seemed to misinterpret my original comment and then launch personal attacks by calling me a liar.

    Now I understand your “I certainly haven’t meant to lie or troll” … you are so fucking stupid, insecure, and/or self-centered that you totally misinterpreted me as saying that you were a troll and liar; that’s quite amazing.

  803. #805 bastion
    July 17, 2008

    At #707 craig said:
    So, since Popes are infallible, that means that up until a few years ago, our ancestors were shared with chimps… but *poof*, reality got changed recently. Not our idea of what happened, but literally WHAT HAD HAPPENED.

    You may be relieved to know that the Pope isn’t always infallible. The Catholics believe the Pope is infallible when he speaks on matters of doctrines of faith or morals. http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

    Otherwise, he’s just as fallible as the rest of us.

    Now, doesn’t that make you feel much better?

  804. #806 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    tm @ 801: True. Still, it gets some of the flavour across.

    I wonder if Brian is old enough to have been through the hurly-burly of ye olde Usenet?

  805. #807 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    You may be relieved to know that the Pope isn’t always infallible.

    Ray doesn’t think so.

    The Catholics believe the Pope is infallible when he speaks on matters of doctrines of faith or morals. http://www.catholic.com/library/Papal_Infallibility.asp

    You’ve confused Catholic doctrine with what “the Catholics believe”.

  806. #808 pcarini
    July 17, 2008

    Also, in re: #805

    Are you saying that the Catholic church doesn’t claim the origin of mankind as one of its “doctrines of faith”? I’m not doubting your claim, I just want to know to remedy my own ignorance on the matter.

  807. #809 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I wonder if Brian is old enough to have been through the hurly-burly of ye olde Usenet?

    It’s hard to tell since he pretended to have a very different attitude than he actually does, to “soften [me] up for the good of everyone”. Boy was that dumb. He says “I’m sure you’ll tell me why that was foolish of me and I will concede the win to you because I’ve wasted too much time already” — better if the dishonest git would concede the point because it’s so obviously true.

  808. #810 Nino
    July 17, 2008

    I just visited the Catholic League website to get their angle on things.
    An in their post “HYSTERIA MARKS MYERS AND HIS ILK” dated July 11th i found this beaut:
    “….Myers, who claims expertise in studying zebrafish, has quite a following among the King Kong Theory of Creation gang. ….”

    Well, I am used to evolution beeing called “Darwenism” for better propaganda value. But seeing it called the “King Kong Theory of Creation” realy made my day !
    What a crude and primitive attempt at propaganda….
    And a clear indecator as to the intelectual levle these people are on…..

  809. #811 aleph1=c
    July 17, 2008

    Yeah, the Every Sperm is Sacred scene! Weren’t they English, not Irish? I guess the whole point is thet they were Catholic. I also like the exploding fat guy (it’s wafer thin!) and Eric Idle’s Penis Song.

  810. #812 Muffin
    July 17, 2008

    Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering. I sense much fear in Thomas Foley.

    No, seriously, I’m not just quoting a movie. Reading what he said, I can’t help but feel that he’s entirely controlled by fear, consumed by it even, scared senseless of his own shadow and trying desperately to keep it in check.

    Well, just like many (although not all) republicans, of course, but he appears to be an extreme example even for them. Angst essen Seele auf…

  811. #813 scooter
    July 17, 2008

    Dr Frank #764

    BWAHAHAHAHA!!!

    nice one.

  812. #814 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    More on that dishonest git Brian:

    You criticize me for jumping to conclusions but you have done that yourself.

    This is a tu quoque fallacy. Brian did in fact jump to conclusions, regardless of what I did. But I simply responded to what Brian wrote; making an inference from the evidence is not jumping to a conclusion. I did assume that he was displaying a minimum of good faith, rather than completely misrepresenting his own attitudes, but that’s a reasonable, necessary, and faultless assumption.

  813. #815 pcarini
    July 17, 2008

    @Nino (#810):

    Maybe I’m just slow (it is late here), but what is “King Kong Theory of Creation” even supposed to mean?

    I’m way more into the Donkey Kong Theory of Creation, anyway, which says that all of the building blocks for life were in the barrels he was rolling down the planks. Mario only thought that they were aimed at him — in fact, by trying to stop DK he’s really the devil figure.

  814. #816 Nick Gotts
    July 17, 2008

    As for Fr. J’s claim on this thread that “[t]hose who have stolen consecrated hosts have committed a federal offense,” I have no idea what he’s talking about. I assume he’s just making shit up. – Lowell

    Well either he isn’t really a priest, in which case he’s certainly making shit up by pretending to be one, or he is, in which case it’s his full-time job!

  815. #817 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    tm, I guess I try to err on the side of charity, so I can hardly blame you for doing the same.

    Regarding Brian, I am unsure of what combination of shellshock, naivety, stupidity and malice has been evinced so far. But you’re making me wonder.

  816. #818 Jim1138
    July 17, 2008

    #803 You’re leaven me behind. Cracken me up. Ink everywhere.

  817. #819 Nino
    July 17, 2008

    @ pcarini

    I yoused to be an atheist who thought, that evolution was the logical explenation as tho how we came to be.

    Now I can all myself a “King Kong Creationist” !

    Can I sart a KKC Curch? Ware there any tax breaks I can get that way?

    Na…
    I suppose it would only lead to a fight with a “Reformed KKC Church” who claim that PZ is their prophet….

    LOL

  818. #820 John Morales
    July 17, 2008
  819. #821 Lago
    July 17, 2008

    “Wait, if some people in the US are descended from Irish people, then why are there still Irish people?”

    Because their descendants still are lazy, drink too much, and eat potatoes daily.

    Paddy

  820. #822 David Marjanovi?, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Are you saying that the Catholic church doesn’t claim the origin of mankind as one of its “doctrines of faith”?

    Yes. Current official opinion is that only the soul of man was created — the body evolved, whence our sinful nature that is (with copious use of metaphors) explained in Genesis 2.

    More importantly, supposedly infallible pronouncements are very rare because require a grand ceremony; even on matters of doctrine, the Pope can’t just casually utter an opinion that is then automatically considered infallible.

  821. #823 uriel
    July 17, 2008

    Craig, Brian- don’t worry about TM too much.

    Have you ever had a neighbor who owned a dog that would bark at any damned thing, regardless of intent or action? One that would rush it’s little fence and start yapping anytime anything remotely new wandered past its comfort zone- even if “new” meant “hasn’t been here since yesterday?” One that froths at the mouth at every passing thing, regardless of how inconsequential, non-threatening or even friendly it was? You know, the kind of dog that seems to spend all it’s time either stewing in its aggression or misinterpreting any novelty as some dire threat?

    Well, we’re it self-aware enough, that dog would take a single look at TM, back away, and shake it’s head at the kind of unprovoked hostility TM eagerly embraces on a daily basis.

    Frankly, it’s trivial and pointless to point out how clearly his obvious need diminish others is an attempt to shore up his obvious sense of inadequacy. Really, it’s best to just let him stew in his juices and treat his constant blatherings about how anyone impinging on his comfort zone, or questioning his obviously limited understanding of the world, are are ‘filth’ and ‘trolls’ for what they are- the incoherent squawking of fragile, unimaginative, and insular little person.

    Of course, you can’t win in the face of that kind of unreasoning hostility, but in the end- who really cares? It’s just the internets- and even in that limited realm, he/she’s hardly important as TM seems to think he/she is, regardless of that meaningless ‘om’ appellation it seems so fond of.

    As an aside- Hey TM! How’s it going?

  822. #824 Nick Gotts
    July 17, 2008

    The Vatican is a place the Eucharist is the heart of the Church – Brian F

    I think Brian F has just told us what should be done with a consecrated cracker: offer to return it in exchange for legal title to the Vatican. Since the Vatican is merely a place, and the cracker is the heart of the Church, the Pope will surely jump at the offer!

  823. #825 Tom Nielsen
    July 17, 2008

    PZ, when he talks about increased security, he means increased security for the crackers.

  824. #826 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Hi Uriel.

    I like the long insult followed by the cheerie “How’s it going?”.

    Sorry Uriel, but I have a feeling that Brian’s IQ > yours.

    PS “we’re it self-aware enough”. Love it.

  825. #827 clinteas
    July 17, 2008

    Gee PZ,

    give us a piece about epigenetics man,or some obscure science topic,I cant stand the trolls anymore.

  826. #828 GunOfSod
    July 17, 2008

    #763 DrFrank

    “Wait, if some people in the US are descended from Irish people, then why are there still Irish people?”

    I laughed and laughed until I realised you’d just argued me out of existence.

  827. #829 MrBenchley
    July 17, 2008

    The thing I find most astonishing is his claim to be a Republican AND simultaneously to have “never “personally encountered such bigotry.”” Considering what a bigoted lot of pisswits make up Virginia’s Republican party I find that particularly hard to believe. This guy sits in Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell’s backyard, the home of George “Macaca” Allen, and he never noticed any? Not a speck?

    And the other thing that astonishes me is that Virginia’s Republicans are among the most gun-crazy dimwits on the planet. Evidently actual loaded guns on the table are okey-dokey, but ooh, those cyber-pistols….

  828. #830 Uriel
    July 17, 2008

    Glad you appreciated it, JM. I try to amuse, where I can.

    As far as the IQ jibe goes- Oh well. Some how, I don’t feel like getting into a pissing match on this paticular internet venue at this time. So, I guess we’ll just have to agree to not care what the other thinks on the subject. That’s the way it works, sometimes.

  829. #831 Chris
    July 17, 2008

    Damn, it took a while but I finally got the reference in #763

    My only excuse is 3 hours of sleep after too many Guinness last night after a heated discussion with an “evolutionary Christian” — I still don’t know what the F he meant by that.

  830. #832 Stephen Wells
    July 17, 2008

    Everyone who’s ever eaten beef has done something sacreligious to Hindus, for whom cows are sacred animals not to be killed or eaten. May I expect a wave of Catholic vegetarianism?

    Everyone has a right to form their own beliefs. The actual beliefs get no protection whatsoever from critical consideration and comparison to evidence.

  831. #833 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    Uriel, you surprise me.

    Good comment. Now, if you apologise to the rabid dog, you will have shown some honesty.

  832. #834 johannes
    July 17, 2008

    > as it is of the Polish (as opposed to the heretic …
    > Russians) and the Croat ethnic identities (as
    > opposed to the heretic Serbians and Bosnian Muslims),
    > as Orthodoxy is part of the Russian, Greek and
    > Serbian ethnic identities (as opposed to heretic Croats
    > and Poles,

    Catholic and Orthodox Christians consider each other schismatics rather than heretics. Of course, that did not stop them from killing each other…

  833. #835 Sauceress
    July 17, 2008

    PZ is a cyberpistol toting Cephalopod?

    *dives under desk for cover*

  834. #836 negentropyeater
    July 17, 2008

    Jason #728,

    So when you refer to the consecrated host as a “cracker” and threaten to abuse it and defile it to us as Catholics you must know that you are doing those things to Christ.

    Thank you Jason, because it is exactly in this small sentence that lies the heart of the problem, and maybe this helps you to understand.

    How would we know that we are doing those things to Christ, if we do not believe, and we do not see any reason to believe, that Christ is present in this wafer, or even more generally, we do not even believe in God ?
    Don’t you see that what you are saying is exactly as offensive to us, demanding that we accept that Christ is in that wafer, as us demanding that you accept that Christ isn’t in there ?

    Moreover, why do you worry so much for Christ ? I mean, if you read your bible, do you get the idea that Christ’s message was that you should defend his body against those damned unfaithfuls, or was it, that you, the faithful, should further this sacrament in his memory to keep your faith in him ? So what are you worried about ?

    Look, the catechism says it even very clearly :

    1381 “That in this sacrament are the true Body of Christ and his true Blood is something that ‘cannot be apprehended by the senses,’ says St. Thomas, ‘but only by faith, which relies on divine authority.’ For this reason, in a commentary on Luke 22:19 (‘This is my body which is given for you.’), St. Cyril says: ‘Do not doubt whether this is true, but rather receive the words of the Savior in faith, for since he is the truth, he cannot lie.'”

    So, you see, it’s clear, the senses cannot apprehend this, only faith can. So, we do not have faith. You can respect that, at least ? So, for us, it’s just a cracker.

    Moreover, there is nothing in the Bible that indicates that Christ was ever worried about the unfaithful abusing his body. How could they, when they do not have faith ?
    On the other hand, there is every indication, if you want to believe in your own bible, that he was much more concerned about those who would take this sacrament unworthily, as is clearly explained in the passage “examine yourself” ;

    27 Therefore whoever eats this bread or drinks this cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of the body and blood of the Lord. 28 But let a man examine himself, and so let him eat of the bread and drink of the cup. 29 For he who eats and drinks in an unworthy manner eats and drinks judgment to himself, not discerning the Lord’s body. Corinthians 11: 27-29

    So, to summarize :

    a) we do not know that we are doing those things to Christ, as we do not believe he is in there, nor that he exists
    b) your own Church catechism recognizes that we are incapable of knowing this
    c) there is no indication in your own bible that christ was ever worried about unfaithfuls abusing his own body, but on the contrary, of people who take this sacrament in an unworthy manner

    So, what are you worried about ? Stick to your beliefs and your faith if you want, take your sacrament, eat as many Eucahrists, but do not force us to believe in something we do not want to, as we do not see any reason to.

    It should be quite simple to understand really.

  835. #837 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Now, if you apologise to the rabid dog, you will have shown some honesty.

    I need no apology from the troll, and it wouldn’t be given honestly in any case.

    And besides, trolls like Uriel who resort to such ad hominem dismissals just mark themselves for what they are; they affect only their own credibility, not mine, which I’ve well established here. Ask David Marjanovi?, who eventually came around. Or Azkyroth, who used to waste his time trying to give me etiquette lessons and pop psychologize me, much as the green Nick Gotts has done a few times. Eventually Azkyroth stopped whining about me and even took on some of my troll-bashing techniques.

  836. #838 Nick Gotts
    July 17, 2008

    It is interesting why would anyone do violence to a lamb! – NAB

    Er, usually it’s a preliminary to butchering, roasting and eating it.

  837. #839 Stephen Wells
    July 17, 2008

    @836: shouldn’t we be pointing out that a guy who supposedly let himself be nailed to a plank is probably not that worried about the fate of his body or parts thereof?

  838. #840 Pavel Chichikov
    July 17, 2008

    This posted first on another site:

    And what if what believers believe is true? Where does that leave you? I don’t mean in hell – no one can judge you except the One you don’t believe in. But where does your disbelief leave you as you stand before the indescribable Glory?

    I think the least you can do to begin with is to upper case God, as a mark of respect to the English language, in which proper nouns are written so. Note please that I did not type your name thus: paul.

    I think you will find, if you talk with many believers, that their belief comes not primarily from reading a text, even the Bible, but from experience. When they say ‘Glory to God’, they know what they’re saying.

  839. #841 OctoberMermaid
    July 17, 2008

    “I think you will find, if you talk with many believers, that their belief comes not primarily from reading a text, even the Bible, but from experience. When they say ‘Glory to God’, they know what they’re saying.”

    Sort of like people who experience alien abductions or hauntings and believe in them just as fervently.

    Anyway, I didn’t think the Christian god’s actual name was “God.” He has tons of other names for himself, but I don’t know if he ever settled for just “god.”

    Besides, to us, he’s just one of many other equally insubstantial gods with no more evidence behind him than Zeus.

  840. #842 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    But where does your disbelief leave you as you stand before the indescribable Glory?

    Where does your disbelief in the Easter Bunny leave you as you stand before the ineffable Hare?

    I think you will find, if you talk with many believers, that their belief comes not primarily from reading a text, even the Bible, but from experience. When they say ‘Glory to God’, they know what they’re saying.

    I have already found, after talking to many believers, that they are deluded and arrogant fools who treat their fantasies as “experience” and self-servingly claim to “know what they’re saying” when all the evidence indicates otherwise.

  841. #843 Chris
    July 17, 2008

    @negentropyeater #836

    Well put. Problem with people like Jason is, they do not WANT to see our point. To them, it simply doesn’t matter whether we do believe in their mystical cloud person or not, or whether the cracker is just a cracker or it’s somehow “transformed” into the body parts of a dead person (anyone else think Zombie here?).

    Their point is, THEY believe it, therefor it’s true and real.

    Kinda reminds me of my one year old daughter who always is in awe that I’m able to “magically” let there be light in our living room…

  842. #844 OctoberMermaid
    July 17, 2008

    “I have already found, after talking to many believers, that they are deluded and arrogant fools who treat their fantasies as “experience” and self-servingly claim to “know what they’re saying” when all the evidence indicates otherwise.”

    This has been my experience, as well. Human beings have great imaginations and powerful emotions that threaten to override their logic at times. So it would be fairly simple for us to consider even the wildest thing to be true.

    And if there’s already a large group of people who believe this outlandish thing, it becomes just that much easier to convince ourselves.

    And this is exactly why objective evidence and facts are so incredibly important and why faith is worthless.

  843. #845 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    tm,

    …and even took on some of my troll-bashing techniques.

    I hate to admit it, but me too.

    Sifu! Sifu!

  844. #846 MAJeff, OM
    July 17, 2008

    shorter Jason:

    blah blah blah

  845. #847 Chris
    July 17, 2008

    @Pavel #840
    I think the least you can do to begin with is to upper case God …

    It’s YOUR god, so why should I?
    You wouldn’t show similar respect to my god, if I had one, would you?

    … as a mark of respect to the English language, in which proper nouns are written so.

    Names are, not nouns. And ‘god’ is just another word, not a name, as say Zeus or Mars is.

  846. #848 MAJeff, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I challenge any of you to be as hateful toward anything muslim. No? I thought not.
    Posted by: Ray | July 16, 2008 11:57 PM

    And another lying sack of shit.

  847. #849 bob
    July 17, 2008

    Foley is an idiot. He claims he had never witness such bigotry as he found on this site. The man grew up in the south under Jim Crow laws. They weren’t repealed until he was 17 years old. Does he think that saying there is no gods, and that it is only a cracker is worse than legally forcing segregation and treating people as second class citizens? I suggest that one of the Eucharist be shellacked, and site to him as an award, “Stupid Cracker of the Year.”

  848. #850 elbuho
    July 17, 2008

    @ #91

    additional instruction: have a friend surreptitiously video the whole event on a mobile phone.

  849. #851 MAJeff, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Myers is a bigot, not a racist. The problem is this…if Myers (or any of you) choose not to believe, that is your choice….but why must you do all you can to belittle and hate all those that choose to believe…just go about your business…why do you feel it necessary to desecrate the Holy Eucharist….compensating for something, perhaps?
    Posted by: Ray | July 17, 2008 12:08 AM

    blah blah blah blah blah

  850. #852 MAJeff, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I believe EVERYTHING the Pope says since he is the Vicor of Christ, the heir to St. Peter…

    baaaaaaaaah baaaaaaaaaaah baaaaaaaaaah

  851. #853 MAJeff, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Does he think that saying there is no gods, and that it is only a cracker is worse than legally forcing segregation and treating people as second class citizens?

    I’m going to go with “yes.” He quite probably does think that.

  852. #854 GunOfSod
    July 17, 2008

    PZ – “I had no idea that “braying” was especially insulting to the Irish”

    It’s news to me too, and you don’t get more Irish than where I am. Maybe it’s just those sensitive East Coast Irish?

    Dia duit ó na Forbacha, Gaillimh.

  853. #855 Alan
    July 17, 2008

    Oh god, “braying” is an insult to the Irish? As a born and bred Irishman, I can definitely say that this plastic paddy hasn’t got a clue and is full of bullshit.

  854. #856 Chris
    July 17, 2008

    @MAJeff #852

    You know the saying: ONLY sheep need a shepherd…

  855. #857 infidel.michael
    July 17, 2008

    Since when “bigotry = making fun of somebody”?

  856. #858 scooter
    July 17, 2008

    # 834 Johannes

    Catholic and Orthodox Christians consider each other schismatics rather than heretics.

    Schiz-o-matics, shit that is PERFECT!!!

    Of course, that did not stop them from killing each other…

    The AMERICAN thing to do would have been to sell cyberpistols to both sides until they finish each other off. Another missed opportunity.
    ——————
    You Tube Eucharist Challenge

  857. #859 cuervo
    July 17, 2008

    My dad’d Irish, but I’m not…how is that? Because I was born and live in London perhaps?
    I love the american tradition of going back hundreds of years and adopting the country of a vague ancestor as an ethnicity!

  858. #860 MAJeff, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Schiz-o-matics, shit that is PERFECT!!!

    Do they work as well as the Bass-O-Matic?

  859. #861 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I hate to admit it

    Be not ashamed of thyself and thy master, little one.

  860. #862 Jud
    July 17, 2008

    Good heavens – Ritz-ual abuse!

  861. #863 scooter
    July 17, 2008

    Ray Said

    I challenge any of you to be as hateful toward anything muslim.

    Okay, just off the cuff.

    What’s difference between a rug muncher and a smoke swinger?
    Rug munchers don’t watch American Idol.

    How’s that?
    ——————
    You Tube Eucharist Challenge

  862. #864 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    “… as a mark of respect to the English language, in which proper nouns are written so.”

    Names are, not nouns.

    Ahem. Proper nouns are, indeed, capitalized in English — 1st grade grammar.

  863. #865 Wowbagger
    July 17, 2008

    Scooter,

    Jihad! Jihad for you!

    /bad Muslim impression>

    PS – I don’t get it!

  864. #866 clinteas
    July 17, 2008

    @ No 840

    Who is the guy,fucking Ray “Banana” Comfort? Whats with this capitalizing Dog thing,is that meant to add anything to a discussion,its spelled with a capital G,got to be important?

  865. #867 Pun the librarian
    July 17, 2008

    Desecrading an Eucharist is a Hell of a thing to do.

  866. #868 OctoberMermaid
    July 17, 2008

    “Ahem. Proper nouns are, indeed, capitalized in English — 1st grade grammar”

    I, for one, will consider it a proper noun as soon as I see a proper god.

  867. #869 clinteas
    July 17, 2008

    OctoberMermaid,

    better stock up on popcorn,might take a while for a proper god to show up LOL

  868. #870 BT Murtagh
    July 17, 2008

    #30: NO, you do not have to be born in Ireland to be Irish. If you have a parent who was born in Ireland you are automatically an Irish citizen. That’s my own case, for example – I wasn’t born in Ireland, but I was born an Irish citizen and have an Irish passport and everything.

    After that it gets a little trickier, you have to register foreign births and the parent you derive citizenship from must have been an Irish citizen at the time of your birth. That’s my son’s case, and he’ll have his citizenship and passport as soon as his Da gets off his lazy arse and does the paperwork.

    #859: Whether you know it or not, if your Da was born in Ireland, you are in fact Irish.

  869. #871 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I don’t have any problem with capitalizing “God” which, extant or not, is a proper noun. It’s the cooptation of words like “love” and “truth” that really gets me; these words are meaningful in normal use, but not when capitalized. Saying things like “Truth with a capital T is the ultimate truth” is literally nonsensical — “ultimate truth” is no more meaningful than “penultimate truth”, “14th truth”, “bottom truth”, “blue truth”, etc.

  870. #872 George
    July 17, 2008

    George: “One searches in vain for an adult among PZ Myers’ amen chorus.”

    “Hi Ron. Sockpuppet much?”

    “That’s what happens when you wear a god bag over your head George. Blindness is a given.”

    The search continues. Perhaps behaving like smug, adolescent asses is to be expected from the choir when such behavior is routinely modeled by the choir leader.

    Who’s Ron?

  871. #873 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I, for one, will consider it a proper noun as soon as I see a proper god.

    That’s fine, but Chris was simply wrong when he wrote “Names are, not nouns” in response to “proper nouns are written so”, as if he were unfamiliar with the term.

  872. #874 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 17, 2008

    Hi everybody. Any thing happen while I was sleeping?

    HOLY SHIT

  873. #875 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    P.S. Batman, Superman, Santa Claus … are all proper nouns, despite being fictional.

  874. #876 negentropyeater
    July 17, 2008

    #853

    I’m going to go with “yes.” He quite probably does think that.

    Or worse, he’d probably manage to argue that one would necessarily lead to the other, don’t you know that repetitive cracker worship is the best antidote against racism ?

  875. #877 John Morales
    July 17, 2008

    George:

    Who’s Ron?

    Someone just like you, apparently.

    Care to show evidence otherwise?

  876. #878 Chris
    July 17, 2008

    @truth machine

    As said before, I’m suffering from lack of sleep. Yes, you’re right, proper nouns are _usually_ capitalized in English. However, “god” is considered to be a proper noun with respect to referring to ‘the’ monotheistic god (aka JHWH).

    Personally I do not think there’s a real difference between a proper and a common noun. Unless you’re referring to a name (think London, or Berlin) or you’re Trying to Make a Point (think Declaration of Independence).

  877. #879 Chris
    July 17, 2008

    @truth #875
    P.S. Batman, Superman, Santa Claus … are all proper nouns, despite being fictional.

    I consider those to be names. Albeit names of fictional people.

    Ok, you could argue that ‘God’ is a name, however as has been pointed out here before, that mystical cloud thing never said its name was ‘God.’

  878. #880 negentropyeater
    July 17, 2008

    Ray,

    Myers is a bigot, not a racist. The problem is this…if Myers (or any of you) choose not to believe, that is your choice….but why must you do all you can to belittle and hate all those that choose to believe…just go about your business…why do you feel it necessary to desecrate the Holy Eucharist….compensating for something, perhaps?

    Ray is a bigot, and a racist I don’t know. The problem is this…if Ray (or any of you believers) choose to believe, that is your choice….but why must you do all you can to belittle and hate all those that choose not to believe…just go about your business…why do you feel it necessary to react if we non believers desecrate a cracker….compensating for something, perhaps ?

  879. #881 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    July 17, 2008

    Is that a cyberpistol in your packet or are you just happy to see me?

    Nice.

  880. #882 Peter Ashby
    July 17, 2008

    Well if possesion of a cyber pistol makes PZ a cyberman then attendants at the RNC have only one option: gold. The ony way to deal with a cyberman is gold in his respiration system (the box on his chest). So RNC attendees if you see PZ you must throw gold at him. Not cheap costume jewellery, only 18 carats or above is effective and the purer the better.

  881. #883 kmerian
    July 17, 2008

    BobC

    No, I am not the policeman, I just think it is time for this juvenile crap to stop, on both sides. But, by your response I can see you want to keep this as juvenile as possible.

    Wowbagger, no, I can’t tell, that is why he should just turn them all over and get a life.

  882. #884 Michelle
    July 17, 2008

    @Peter Ashby #882: Makes sense! That must be why the very poor catholic church has so many golden relics. You opened my eyes. :P

  883. #885 Paul Burnett
    July 17, 2008

    Ok, you could argue that ‘God’ is a name, however as has been pointed out here before, that mystical cloud thing never said its name was ‘God.’

    “God” is not a name at all – it’s an occupational title, like “angel” or “demon” or “plumber.” The former storm god of the Sinai desert (“that mystical cloud thing”) who was morphed into the Creator God of Genesis is variously named as “Yahweh” or (incorrectly) as “Jehovah.”

    When one says “god” without specifying which one, it’s open to interpretation, as there are any number of gods in any number of pantheons. If you walk into a board meeting chaired by Zeus or Jupiter or Wotan and say “Yo, God,” they will all say “Who you talking to?”

  884. #886 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Yes, you’re right, proper nouns are _usually_ capitalized in English.

    Proper nouns are always capitalized in English unless you’re e.e. cummings.

    Personally I do not think there’s a real difference between a proper and a common noun. Unless you’re referring to a name (think London, or Berlin) or you’re Trying to Make a Point (think Declaration of Independence).

    It doesn’t matter what you think, it’s a fucking grammar rule. And the Declaration of Independence is capitalized because it’s a title, just like Gone With the Wind; it has nothing to do with trying to make a point.

    I consider those to be names.

    Names are proper nouns. Sheesh, do you always become illiterate when you’re short of sleep? I sleep about 3 hours a day but I don’t have that problem. (I have been known to get a bit cranky though.)

  885. #887 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Gone With the Wind

    Oops, I should have written either “Gone with the Wind” or “Gone With The Wind”.

    “God” is not a name at all – it’s an occupational title, like “angel” or “demon” or “plumber.”

    Sigh. The latter are all used with articles or possessives: “an angel”, “his demon”, “the plumber”. When “god” is used that way, it shouldn’t be capitalized, but when it stands alone it’s a proper noun.

  886. #888 John Phillips, FCD
    July 17, 2008

    (I have been known to get a bit cranky though.)

    Posted by: truth machine, OM | July 17, 2008 8:31 AM

    Really, who would have thunk it. Sorry, couldn’t resist. Though to be honest, there is little I enjoy more than watching you in full flow excoriating one poor soul or another. Whether always deserved it is invariably worth getting out the popcorn :)

  887. #889 Rarusvir
    July 17, 2008

    Questions and comments:

    1. How could you not see this coming?

    2. Have you ever wanted to be a train engineer?

    3. Cyber guns don’t kill people, Cyber sex does.

    4. If Tom Foley never heard such bigotry, he should get out more.

    5. There are more cephalopods than humans. You always have them to fall back on PZ.

    6. Is Europe looking? (I’m so embarrassed)

    7. PZ’s self esteem might plummet if he’s kicked out of two fundie events in one year. [expelled, RNC].

    8. Foley is an American of Irish descent, not an Irishman in America, but let’s face it; they never really understood descent anyway, sounds too evolutionary.

    9. And it is still a fraking cracker.

    10. I am NOT PZ Myers ally, but I’d like to be his friend.

    11. Braying refers to Donkey’s, Donkeys look like the democrat symbol, which is the REAL reason it makes republicans uneasy.

    12. For a crime to take place, harm must be demonstrated, where’s the harm?

    In a way, I am delighted to see the controversy generated by this. We need to settle some issues in America and it won’t get done without struggles. More importantly though, it generates much needed publicity for a cause that needs it, the separation of church and state is too fuzzy in the uneducated minds of Americans which is a direct result of chasing the American Dream, (I remember what the late George Carlin said about The American Dream, “They call it a dream because you have to be asleep to believe it”.)

    Wake up Tom.

  888. #890 Robert
    July 17, 2008

    This is your big moment. You won’t be remembered, if you’re remembered at all, for your “contributions” to science, but for your childish rantings against Catholics. Congratulations.

  889. #891 Ponder
    July 17, 2008

    Never poster here before. Frankly don’t have time to go through the thousands of posts that have been generated by this whole furore.

    I have send an email to the chairman of PZ Myers university stating my support for PZ.

    I think the student, wossname, Webster Cook, who started all this was a little naive. I think that the Catholic Church’s reaction to this (and to PZ’s comments) was ludicrous and they should be stepped on, heavily, by saner, calmer authorities. I personally would not go Medieval on a cracker to show my disapproval of said Catholic behaviour. It wouldn’t be… polite, and to me it’s just a cracker and I have better things to do than biscuit abuse. Reading some of the comments here perhaps I should change my mind, sometimes you do have to stand up and make a statement against such insanity.

    One thing does crop up, again and again. Athiest = Hitler = Evil.

    Hitler certainly started as a catholic. Later he rejected that in favour of a religion of personality based around himself. “He” was the chosen one, the new god. He didn’t give up religion, he adopted it wholesale. But this isn’t the point.

    Hitler was the leader of the 3rd Reich. The leader of the German people who, with some honourable exceptions, fully supported him. I believe they were to a large extent catholic. The catholic church supported Hitler until he started turning on them too (again with honourable exceptions). Hitler may not have been catholic, he may have believed himself to be the new christ or not believed at all, that’s not the point. The German people did believe. And they followed him. He promised them glory, he gave them someone to blame (several someones) and this good catholic people followed him.

    So who is more contemptible, the possibly atheist sociopath who says “kill” or the believers in christ who do his bidding?

  890. #892 HLKing
    July 17, 2008

    I eagerly await the post in which PZ desecrates the eucharist. It should prove amusing, considering how much reaction there has been to simply saying he’ll do it.

  891. #893 c.auratus
    July 17, 2008

    Yikes! So many comical Cat-lick wackaloon posts, so little time…

    Anyway: “god” is not a proper noun, and it need not be capitalized. Besides, what is the point? Crackers, capitalizations, etc. These religiobots are obsessive about the most trivial inanities. It would be nice to know whether all catholics are as anal as these new commenters, or whether the worst self-selected to post here.

  892. My HS grammar teacher told me that fictional gods are NOT to be capitalized when referring to them.

  893. #895 c.auratus
    July 17, 2008

    Robert:

    This is your big moment. You won’t be remembered, if you’re remembered at all, for your “contributions” to end poverty and reduce suffering, but for your childish rantings against atheists. Congratulations.

    There, I fixed it for you.

  894. #896 Peter Ashby
    July 17, 2008

    Yes indeed, when apprehended stripping all the gold from a Catholic church you should immediately and urgently rant on about ‘the cybermen are coming!’ At the very least you will get locked up somewhere nicer ;-)

  895. #897 scooter
    July 17, 2008

    OKAY

    doG

    Happy now?

  896. #898 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    My HS grammar teacher told me that fictional gods are NOT to be capitalized when referring to them.

    And you have never seen the name of one in print ever since, or thought each time that it was wrong? Was your HS grammar teacher named Mr. Gospel, perchance?

    I had a teacher tell me that gymnasium has three syllables … but that wouldn’t be a good excuse for me to be claiming it, would it?

  897. #899 Bourgeois_Rage
    July 17, 2008

    If you outlaw cyberpistols then only outlaws will have cyberpistols.

  898. #900 MAJeff, OM
    July 17, 2008

    If you outlaw cyberpistols then only outlaws will have cyberpistols.

    But they’re only virtual outlaws!

  899. #901 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    So many comical Cat-lick wackaloon posts, so little time…

    So many illiterates.

    “god” is not a proper noun, and it need not be capitalized.

    Of course it’s not … when used with an article or possessive, as I said. But used without one, it’s a proper noun.

  900. #902 John Phillips, FCD
    July 17, 2008

    Bourgeois Rose: LOL

  901. #903 JeffreyD
    July 17, 2008

    Regarding my own post at #371 – saddened but not surprised that the hate mongering Catholics and/or Xtians on this blog chose to ignore a message from their own rule book.

    Truth machine, your post #861 made me spit coffee with laughter.

    Gotta…love…Ray…’s…po…sts, right!!!!????

    OK, must get more coffee, after I finish wiping my screen.

    Pax Nabisco. Hmmm, maybe should change that to Pox Nabisco

  902. #904 Peter Ashby
    July 17, 2008

    I remember aged about 8, when asked to write a sentence containg the word ‘god’ I (being a well read 8yo) wrote: Thor was the Viking god of thunder. My teacher told me it was wrong because there was only one god.

    Mind you we had to cut Mr Murray some slack, he was an old soldier who, having been denied a normal education by the war had become a primary school teacher under a govt program to employ all these returned servicemen. He had been a Desert Rat fighting Rommel. At least I didn’t get strapped for it, he reputedly hurt A LOT when he strapped you. On the hand, no perverts allowed.

  903. #905 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Really, who would have thunk it. Sorry, couldn’t resist.

    That’s why I put it out there.

  904. #906 SC
    July 17, 2008

    (I have been known to get a bit cranky though.)

    You, sweet pea? Never. :)

    OK, back to work. Busy week.

  905. #907 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    These religiobots are obsessive about the most trivial inanities. It would be nice to know whether all catholics are as anal as these new commenters, or whether the worst self-selected to post here.

    I do hope you’re not another one of these newbie fools who mistakes me for a theist — just because I’m literate and know the rules of grammar. Watch for people capitalizing words like Love and Truth — those are the genuine godbots.

  906. #908 black wolf
    July 17, 2008

    #889,
    Yes, Europe’s looking. You have no reason to be embarassed. We have our own nutters to deal with, like that Cardinal from my country who expressed his displeasure at an art exhibit at a clerical museum, declaring that art without reverence for God was degenerate (using the same term the Nazis used for modern ‘ungermanic’ art). He also equated abortion with the Holocaust and asserted that officially registered homosexual partnerships endangered ‘constitutionally established morals’. Or politicians defending the unconstitutional obligation in one state for schools to place Christian crosses in every classroom – it is now unconstitutional only when someone protests. The same politicians who demanded a tightening of blasphemy laws to prevent ridicule of religion in caricature and other forms of art altogether.

  907. Truth, I wasn’t claiming anything. I never said I agreed with her. Plus, my poor grammar skills made my point unclear. I didn’t mean the actual names of the gods, just the word “god”.

    She taught mythology so I guess she thought she could get away with indoctrinating us. Her examples were something like, “The god Zeus lived on Mt. Olympus.” and “You must not take God’s name in vain.”

  908. #910 negentropyeater
    July 17, 2008

    Foley said: “What I think he has done, he’s loaded a cyberpistol and he’s cocked it and he’s left it on the table. He may have set something in motion that no one can stop.

    The power of that cyberpistol increases with every reaction of the religionists.
    The more pathetic, ridicule, delusional the reaction, the higher the power increases.

    With the quantity of religionists out there, this means that potentially, this cyberpistol has quasi limitless power.

    The only way the religionists can stop feeding this cyberpistol, is to stop being pathetic, ridicule and delusional in their reactions.

    Which is something they obviously have no idea how to do.
    So Foley is probably correct in his analysis : “no religionist can stop this cyberpistol”.

  909. #911 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    I remember aged about 8, when asked to write a sentence containg the word ‘god’ I (being a well read 8yo) wrote: Thor was the Viking god of thunder. My teacher told me it was wrong because there was only one god.

    Uh, was this a complaint about capitalization … of the first word of the sentence? Or just the use of “god” in general? Were you supposed to write “Thor was the Viking’s mythical wielder of thunder who supposedly lived in Asgard”, so as to avoid the word?

    Mind you we had to cut Mr Murray some slack

    That’s one heck of a lot of slack.

  910. #912 Dutch Delight
    July 17, 2008

    I can understand that christians want their gods name capitalized, but they should have thought of that before they usurped the term god to exclusively refer to their god as if it was his name.

    Now they’ve got to deal with people like me who make sure never to refer to the god of christianity by this supposed name, but only his alleged job description at best.

    Capitalizing the names of religious sects makes no sense either, but for different reasons. Suffice to say that religious groups where I live are no more significant then people who engage in a particular sport, and the latter don’t get capitalized, so I can’t see any reason why I would grace religious groups with the honor of a capitalized first letter.

  911. #913 c.auratus
    July 17, 2008

    I do hope you’re not another one of these newbie fools who mistakes me for a theist…

    Nope. Long time lurker. So, given that you are an english-savvy evil-lutionist… does that make you a Grammar-Nazi?

    Rarusvir:
    Yes, Europe is watching. And yes, do not be ashamed at all. We have religiotards too – remember the Vatican?

  912. #914 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    Truth machine, your post #861 made me spit coffee with laughter.

    Sorry, heh heh, but with such a set up, I couldn’t resist.

  913. #915 BT Murtagh
    July 17, 2008

    #889

    11. Braying refers to Donkey’s, Donkeys look like the democrat symbol, which is the REAL reason it makes republicans uneasy.

    11. Braying refers to donkeys; the Democratic symbol looks like a donkey, which is the REAL reason it makes Republicans uneasy.

    FTFY

  914. #916 truth machine, OM
    July 17, 2008

    So, given that you are an english-savvy evil-lutionist… does that make you a Grammar-Nazi?

    Not quite: http://www.nobeliefs.com/images/FriedrichCoch.jpg

  915. #917 craig
    July 17, 2008

    “Uh, was this a complaint about capitalization … of the first word of the sentence? Or just the use of “god” in general? Were you supposed to write “Thor was the Viking’s mythical wielder of thunder who supposedly lived in Asgard”, so as to avoid the word?”

    I had a similar experience in first or second grade.
    I don’t remember the teacher’s question, but my answer was “god.” It may have been as simple as “give me a three-letter word starting with g.”

    Anyway, I just said “god,” which around here anyway comes out as a short, quick “gaad.”
    She showed a bit of irritation and responded “yes, or Gawwwwwd.”
    I dunno if its like that everywhere, but there’s a clear distinction here – “god” is gaad and “God” is gawwwwwwd.

    Even then I thought it was silly, but I recognized religion as being nut when I was 4.

  916. #918 negentropyeater
    July 17, 2008

    Rarusvir 889,

    6. Is Europe looking? (I’m so embarrassed)

    What do you mean with this question ?

    Is America looking ?

  917. #919 craig
    July 17, 2008

    “Is America looking ?”

    America’s funny-looking.

  918. #920 Snitzels
    July 17, 2008

    Wow… Paranoid Schizophrenic much?

  919. #921 ajani57
    July 17, 2008

    wow wow WOW

    are you people kidding me? i thought you were my rational cohorts.

    being a citizen of Denver,the city is getting prepared for protests on an epic fucking level. and that is the democrat convention

    i will assure you right now, and please,mark my words, pointing out atheist protesters at the republican convention would be like pointing out WALDO AS HONG KONG BURNS TO THE GROUND

    you’ve got to be kidding me

    Posted by: kubenzi | July 17, 2008 1:55 AM

    lol

    Okay, so I read about 400 posts and skimmed many more and did not find what I was looking for which a thousand wtf’s about the missing link between PZ’s cracker call and the RNC. Seriously and really, is there a link between the two that I’m missing? Trying very hard to see the correlation. Nope. Not seeing it.

  920. #922 FordPrefect