Pharyngula

Posted by: Jackal | July 11, 2008 3:12 PM

Let me get this straight: they're the ones making death threats, and now they're asking for extra protection from us?

Posted by: ERV | July 11, 2008 3:15 PM

So... Now we just have to wait for your next post from the Minneapolis Apple Store about how you tried to crash the RNC, and they stopped you, but let Richard Dawkins in.

Posted by: David | July 11, 2008 3:15 PM

Anything that stimulates them to waste resources is fine by me

Posted by: Vaal | July 11, 2008 3:16 PM

Ah, they are on the run! :))

Posted by: Kseniya | July 11, 2008 3:17 PM

Yes. This can get more insane.

Posted by: Lord Zero | July 11, 2008 3:18 PM

PZ, its unbelieable... why the person who receives
death threaths from christians its the dangerous individual ?
Those crazy fools are really fearful.
Again, im lucky for not living in the states, they would
have me trialed in court for something like this.

Posted by: craig | July 11, 2008 3:18 PM

They live for this kind of crap. Their followers (the GOP masses, not just the Catholic ones) will eat this up.

They'll get all damp in their knickers with glee at the thought that they need extra protection... their little martyr complexes will be quaking with delight.

Ya know, I think there may be some kind of connection between the theater of church, the political theater, and the security theater they've been putting on.

Is there a way in which the wands waved at my genitals in the airport serve these people mentally as a kind of religious incantation?

Posted by: Ken Cope | July 11, 2008 3:19 PM

It cannot possibly be any less insane, more insane is the only available direction, as stasis is out of the question.

Posted by: Lana | July 11, 2008 3:19 PM

This is unbelievable. Catholics are physically afraid of you? No offense, P.Z., but you appear to be a mild-mannered fellow who was more likely the stuffee than the stuffer in high school locker rooms. Again, no offense. Lots of us women are happier having ended up with the stuffee.

Posted by: Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA | July 11, 2008 3:20 PM

"...he accuses me and my ilk (that's you, fair readers) of hysteria..."

Actually, I believe he's accusing us of promoting THEIR hysteria. [If I'm reading it correctly.]

Posted by: Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA | July 11, 2008 3:21 PM

"...he accuses me and my ilk (that's you, fair readers) of hysteria..."

Actually, I believe he's accusing us of promoting THEIR hysteria. [If I'm reading it correctly.]

Posted by: Lord Zero | July 11, 2008 3:22 PM

They are sure than its a fight to death... and the
first to strike wins. Its pure fear. Fear of reason,
fear of reality itself.

Posted by: BadMA | July 11, 2008 3:24 PM

Don't forget the incident that started this. The guy who so callously smuggled a sacred cracker from a Catholic church returned it because he had been threatened. I think they're just trying to take some of the heat off of themselves. I thought Catholics had tacitly admitted that it was really just a cracker centuries ago, but kept the tradition because it was, well, tradition.

Posted by: Mark | July 11, 2008 3:25 PM

"Oh, HALP! The Atheist Octopoctowockles gots me! HALP! Won't SOMEBODY SAVE me?"

Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 11, 2008 3:26 PM

Oh NOES! Iz teh famulus "squeal like a pig" strategee!!!!! Onwardz, catholic bitchez!

Posted by: Ken Cope | July 11, 2008 3:26 PM

Now that it's part of the GOP platform, there is only one place this can end up on such a trajectory. The event that is now inevitable is for Barack Obama to make an address at a Catholic University, formally denouncing PZ Myers, and especially his inky ilk. I'm afraid there's a bus's underside in your future, PZ.

Posted by: Bob Prager | July 11, 2008 3:29 PM

As an RC myself, I thought PZ's remarks were a little over the top -- but doggonit! It's his right to say it!

By the way, please don't destroy the cathedral in St Paul -- it's a beautiful building, and a rather nice landmark!

;-)

Posted by: kcrady | July 11, 2008 3:31 PM

Emailed:

Dear Mr. Bruininks:

While I am aware that many will find P.Z. Myers' proposal to desecrate a Eucharist wafer shocking and offensive, I think that the people least entitled to outrage--much less threats of violence and demands for censorship of Dr. Myers--are those who worship the wafer as the transubstantiated flesh of Jesus. The "Judeo-Christian tradition" has a long history of desecrating and destroying the sacred sites and relics of other religions, going back to before there was a "Christian" to add after the hyphen. The Hebrew Bible is replete with instructions to destroy the transubstantiated statues ("idols") that embodied the deities of other religions, murder their clergy and burn their bodies on their own altars. Bill Donahue's church has sanctioned the destruction of incalculable amounts of priceless religious artwork belonging to other faiths, destruction of their temples and the construction of Catholic churches atop the ruins. The Roman Catholic Church destroyed nearly all of the books of the pre-Columbian civilizations, defaced the majestic temples of the Egyptians, and destroyed much of the religious, scientific, and philosophical inheritance of the Greco-Roman world. They made a saint out of the man who murdered the last Librarian of Alexandria and burned down the Library itself.

In comparison, P.Z. Myers has proposed the public desecration of a cracker that can be bought in bulk for a pittance, a "crime" for which he has been threatened with physical attack, in addition to an organized campaign to deprive him of his economic livelihood. A Eucharist wafer is not a priceless work of art or literature. It is "special" only because of a magic spell cast upon it by a Catholic priest.

P.Z. Myers has become an internationally known, prominent spokesman for science and critical thought in the same league with Richard Dawkins, Eugenie Scott, and Neil deGrasse Tyson. In addition to defending science against the onslaught of creationism, alternative "medicine" and other superstitions, Professor Myers also provides fascinating informative content, such as explanations of syenteny, the groundbreaking research of Dr. Lenski on evolution in E. Coli, and regular explorations into the mystery and wonder of cephalopods. Any university in the world could be proud to count P.Z. Myers as a member of its faculty.

In this current controversy, P.Z. Myers has had the courage to take a stand against forces of intolerance continuing their own tradition of using violence against those who disagree with them. In this case, Professor Myers is publicly standing up to defend an otherwise voiceless student who simply kept something that was freely given to him in the first place. You can know that if any force of organized ignorance were ever to threaten your University, that you can count on Professor Myers to have the physical courage to put his own person on the line in defense of reason and free inquiry. That alone ought to stand as a shining example of excellence in a member of your faculty.

Thank you for your attention.

Yours sincerely,

(Real name, address, and phone number)

Posted by: pbnj | July 11, 2008 3:31 PM

PZ, did you know the university is removing links to your blog from their website?

Posted by: BobC | July 11, 2008 3:31 PM

Catholics and Christians like to feel persecuted for some reason. Who can understand the minds of idiots?

Posted by: James F | July 11, 2008 3:32 PM

In summary:

1) Webster Cook shouldn't have taken the host without asking.
2) The diocese has a right to be upset and take action over the theft.
3) Extreme reactions like death threats against Cook are completely unacceptable.
4) PZ has a right to mock the whole situation.
5) People have a right to be offended by PZ's comments and say so.
6) Donohue is blowing the whole thing out of proportion.

Posted by: The502 | July 11, 2008 3:32 PM

Amazing... I can only hope to piss off Bill as much as you have. I'll have to try harder.

Posted by: Junkjungle | July 11, 2008 3:32 PM

You know, I woke up this morning with a feeling that I was going to get my fill of religious inanity. Little did I know that it would not come from my Catholic coworker, but from the Catholic League and their ilk (hey, fair's fair).

Posted by: Jamdark | July 11, 2008 3:33 PM

I can't help but laugh at this logic, "Myers' ilk used big mean words at us, and now we fear for our lives, and worse still, our religious freedomses!" *KA-CLICK*.

Posted by: GirBoBytons | July 11, 2008 3:33 PM

Wow, well you know how scary us godless heathens can be! We shall not rest until we have killed every cracker, cracker and cracker. We shall take them from your homes, kitchen cabinets, grocery stores and perhaps throw them at you at conventions! I love how they start out stupid and continue to make themselves worse. PZ quit scaring the simple folk!! :P

Posted by: pcarini | July 11, 2008 3:34 PM

PZ, did you know the university is removing links to your blog from their website?

My take on this is that they can now say "It's not linked from our website" and then feel justified in taking no other action.

Posted by: ice weasel | July 11, 2008 3:34 PM

Bah, bed wetting republicans are nothing new. That they're attributing it to something other than evil, dark-skinned terrorists might be a new twist. These scared, pathetic creeps need to stir up fear wherever they can. It's the only hold they have on their sheep...errr...flock....errr....people.

Donohue is the basest of whores. The one who cannot stand to be out of the spotlight and will do anything to stay in it.

Posted by: Mena | July 11, 2008 3:35 PM

Will that added security be protecting the Goopers in the men's room at the airport? There apparently was all sorts of Republicans engaging in flesh-in-mouth activities there. They must be protected!
Lana @18: I am glad that I have my stuffee as well. ;^)

Oh, one more thing.
A flick of my wrist, and cathedrals tumble to the earth; a nod of my head, and heathen legions rise up and swarm like flesh-eating locusts over the faithful.
So the earthquake that hit Lisbon on All Saint's Day 1755, the Good Friday Earthquake in Alaska in 1964, and the tsunami on Boxing Day 2004 were done by you? :^@

Posted by: Alonzo Fyfe | July 11, 2008 3:35 PM

Note that the linked press release says:

"But he'd better be careful what he says, because if I get any death threats, it won't be hard to connect the dots."

So, they have not received any death threats yet. (And let's keep it that way.)

Whereas . . . how many death threats have gone the other direction?

Alonzo Fyfe
Atheist Ethicist

Posted by: pbnj | July 11, 2008 3:37 PM

Link included on July 6th version of faculty page:

http://209.85.165.104/search?q=cache:pWo_qvB7RlEJ:www.morris.umn.edu/academic/biology/faculty.html+pharyngula+site:morris.umn.edu&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=5&gl=us&client=firefox-a

Link has since been removed.

Posted by: Chayanov | July 11, 2008 3:38 PM

Of course the Republicans have already been busy looking for some kind of excuse to impose martial law in the Twin Cities during the convention.

Posted by: BobC | July 11, 2008 3:38 PM

What bugs me the most about the cracker incident, is the removal of the Pharyngula link from the University's website. That's sucking up to Catholic terrorists and it's disgraceful. At least two emails that were sent, including one from me, requested that the link be restored.

Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 11, 2008 3:40 PM

since when are we violent?

Posted by: Kristin | July 11, 2008 3:28 PM

Apparently since we built Hitler in our secret basement Satanic laboratory over a century ago.

Of course, anyone with passable fluency in German knows that Hitler was a professed Catholic as were many of his supporters at the time, including the Catholic Church.

However, since most American Christians seem to follow the tenet "If English was good enough for Jesus, it's good enough for me", no one could reasonably expect them to know that.

Posted by: Lord Zero | July 11, 2008 3:40 PM

Its truth!!, now there is a great chance than this
will become a whole country issue, with the
Crackergate being a strong diverging point
between candidates...
Its would be great to see PZ being interview in
national tv, and having first pages on the news!!

Posted by: pcarini | July 11, 2008 3:41 PM

C.J. Simones @ #63

You know darn well there'll be no Christians issuing fatwas calling for your head to be cut off...

You did read that he got at least four death threats by email just yesterday, right?

Posted by: El'd Herring | July 11, 2008 3:43 PM

Nathaniel - a very valid point. Pity you didn't wait a few seconds and post it on #42 though - that would have been a neat coincidence!

Posted by: Alex | July 11, 2008 3:43 PM

#1

That's my handle. No fair.

Posted by: uncle frogy | July 11, 2008 3:44 PM

the right honorable Thomas E. Foley
is a pandering jackass getting his name into this brouhaha bullshit tempest in a tea pot just to make himself look important and relevant to his district's voters! If the RNC takes this seriously than reason has fled the neo-con reactionary right wing if there ever was any reason present in the first place. Just looks to me as another cynical political ploy to gain and maintain there own hold on political power!

Posted by: W. Kiernan | July 11, 2008 3:45 PM

Hey C. J. Simones, you jackass, can't you read? PZ has already gotten death threats from you child-molesting swine.

Posted by: Rey Fox | July 11, 2008 3:45 PM

More Koran Envy @ #63. Anyone keeping tally?

Posted by: Dahan | July 11, 2008 3:46 PM

Well, it's my backyard. I live in Saint Paul, and my wife works right downtown. They'd better be ready for me, because I'm prepared to roll my eyes at them and possibly even laugh. They should consider themselves warned! I may even march peacfully! I've done it before.

Don't worry, I'm using software that won't allow this to be traced back to me.

Posted by: DrA | July 11, 2008 3:47 PM

Let me add a historical note about heresies and the Eucharist. I'm not a Catholic or a Catholic scholar, so I'm darned if I know how I know this, but the Catholic church had a long debate about transubstantiation. One opponent of a literal transformation into flesh and blood, a fellow named Berengar of Tours, called Pope Leo IX pulpifex (flesh maker), a pun on pontifex. Clever though it was this was the sort of heresy that could get you burned during the Inquisition. So that seems to be what we have here a new Inquisition. Any stakes being erected out on the quad? Sounds like people at the Catholic league have way too much time on their hands.

Posted by: C'mon ya loser! | July 11, 2008 3:47 PM

C.J. Simones, lay off the muslim thing. It's way beyond cliche and well into the mouth breather mantra range. As for Muslims, I have friends and family who are muslims. They don't want to behead you. They don't want to knock down any buildings. They want you and the mental giants who keep posting this same thing to develop a clue about the outside world so that they can live their lives without some idiot thinking that he or she is going to blow them up. Besides, if you do stop being terrified of muslims, you may not need to wear adult diapers any longer because you won't wet your pants every time you go out in public and see one. It's especially good since people like you tend to think that any brown skinned people, even people from central and south america are A-rabs. You must do a lot of laundry.

Posted by: Draconiz | July 11, 2008 3:48 PM

Fear me, O Trembling Republicans. A flick of my wrist, and cathedrals tumble to the earth; a nod of my head, and heathen legions rise up and swarm like flesh-eating locusts over the faithful.

PZ, you just owned the Internet!!!

Posted by: Lord Zero | July 11, 2008 3:50 PM

So much hate damn it... they really
smugled the link ! all just for a
cracker ! Its unbeliable, im so sorry,
but that could never happen in my country
nor in most countries around the world.
If awful, why a so powerful country
as the states its giving so shameful example ?

Posted by: pcarini | July 11, 2008 3:51 PM

@#89:

The fuck? Saying it twice doesn't make it any better or more true, dipshit.

Posted by: daenku32 | July 11, 2008 3:52 PM

Have they not looked at the picture of PZ? He looks like a cute little teddy bear.

But no one expects the inquisition!

Posted by: watercat | July 11, 2008 3:52 PM

As I recall, this whole flap started when some Catholics grabbed a kid and attempted to physically wrestle away his possessions.

>

Posted by: Kristine | July 11, 2008 3:52 PM

Why, were they planning this year to bring a bunch of communion wafers with purple hearts drawn on them, or something? ;-)

(Hey, C.J. Simones - read much?)

Posted by: John | July 11, 2008 3:54 PM

Bill Donohue's never heard of PZ? Geez, Ben Stein can't get anyone to see his movie.

Posted by: Hessenroots | July 11, 2008 3:55 PM

Oh this is rich! I recall a local news report (I live in a suburb north of the mpls/st. paul area) saying that the local police were having a hard time getting volunteer police staff for the GOP shindig. According to channel XX news the counties insurance policy on the event might not be substantial enough to cover "possible excessive force and police brutality cases". I guess Florida and a number of other [red] states have agreed to send some help. Perhaps this is just the excuse they needed to get out the Gestapo. (yep, that became law).

I thought that sounded insane but a GOP delegate (and electoral college nominee no less) asking for security against atheists is sheer madness. Way to spin this one into your own corner! One more nail in the coffin of sanity.

What next, religious profiling? Atheists being declared as enemies of the state? I hear Cuba is lovely this time of year...I can't wait to be detained for lack of religion!

Any countries taking American refugees yet ?

Posted by: hermit | July 11, 2008 3:56 PM

so the republican national convention is in Minneapolis? I hope the mayor issues a public service advisory urging all citizens to avoid public restrooms while the republicans are in town.

Posted by: Ken Cope | July 11, 2008 3:57 PM

PZ, if this doesn't abate in the next couple of days (and I don't see any signs that your new BFF from the Catholic League wants it to subside) I'd be on the lookout for Fox News camera crews hiding in your bushes between your house and the campus, with a Factor Producer ready to shove a microphone in your face to get a load of your snarling venomous fury and unhinged, frothing demeanor, to unspool on a War on XMas segment for Bill O'Reilly.

"Don't block the shot! We're doin' it live!"

Posted by: Longtime Lurker | July 11, 2008 3:57 PM

I have the sneaking suspicion that Bill Donohue (Rome's Concern Troll TM), besides being a complete tool, is trying to use this whole sordid affair as a means to drive rank and file Catholics, who are starting to trend Democratic these days, back towards the GOP. For Donohue, it's always been about the Culture War TM, not defense of the faithful (originally, in my haste, I typed faithdul-a neologism that should stick). The funniest thing about the whole rigmarole is Donohue's knock against evolution, which sets him at odds with church doctrine.

Oh, and if you do take them up on their Koran desecration challenge, you should use the papers of that other problematic book to degrease delicious, salty bacon, which you can then use to top those not-so-delicious wafers.

Posted by: The Other Dan from Wisconsin | July 11, 2008 3:58 PM

PZ: Perhaps they are afraid your trained squid will attack them when they visit Minneapolis. You might ease their fears by assuring them all you squid are properly licensed and leashed at all times, and that only rarely do they ever escape to threaten major metropolitan centers or gobble up hordes of visiting convention-goers. http://usera.imagecave.com/CobraTheEnemy/octopus.jpg

;-)

Posted by: Sili | July 11, 2008 4:00 PM

AHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAHAHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa

That's just priceless.

On a more serious note, I hope you have a good relationship with the local constabulary, PZed. Much as I like to point and laugh at the religiots, this is starting to get out of hand, and I seriously worry for your safety.

Hysteria? Well, it takes one to know one, I s'pose. From what I've heard (and the little I've seen) of Donohue, I'd venture a guess at him being made entirely of hysterae (hysterai? Is there a classicist in the house?).

Posted by: Hessenroots | July 11, 2008 4:00 PM

@ 103

You're getting a dozen?! I was only promised six at best (I guess there's a shortage).

I need to have a serious talk with someone in command...

Posted by: Kenny P | July 11, 2008 4:01 PM

Poor St. Paul. Dissed again. The convention will be held in St. Paul at the Xcel Energy Center; not Minneapolis!

Catholic conventioneers do not need to worry. St. Paul is an extremely Irish Catholic community, but I am sure that the Catholic League will provide photos of PZ to the local police (and Blackwater!) to protect the innocent.

Can they also protect runaway crackers?

Posted by: Keith B | July 11, 2008 4:01 PM

If some Catholic nut assaults Myers over this nonsense, I'm gonna be sad. When are people going to get over this religious bullshit? There are still some actual problems in the world (genocide, politicide, democide, child labor and child combat, civil wars, interstate wars, proxy wars, terrorism, anti-colonial conflicts, nuclear proliferation, insurgencies, domestic crime, economic inflation, poverty, environmental pollution, rising oil prices, starvation, etc). Who gives a flying fuck about a goddamned cracker? Eating it and fighting for its supposed divinity doesn't make you a better person. It just kills thirty minutes honoring some dead Hebrew with an ego problem who didn't come back and save the world like his apostles thought he would.

Posted by: BobC | July 11, 2008 4:03 PM

C.J. Simones, why don't you say it a third time, since apparently you have nothing else to say.

If you have a problem with Catholics being ridiculed, why don't you complain to the Catholic terrorists who want to kill to save a cracker.

Posted by: Fitz Doubet | July 11, 2008 4:04 PM

"We already know that Myers lost one round: the university has removed the link to his blog from his faculty page. He should be prepared to lose a few more rounds. By the way, Myers says he is delighted to have finally garnered my attention. Too bad I can't say the same--I never heard of the guy until yesterday." - Bill Donahue

Hmm, we've all heard of Donahue and he's never heard of PZ. Shows what box he lives in.

Posted by: Greg | July 11, 2008 4:04 PM

Donohue is right in thinking this is a free speech issue. Unfortunately, the person who is protected in this case is PZ, as it was his speech. These people really do live in a fantasy world...

Posted by: ChrisG | July 11, 2008 4:05 PM

So, UMM removed the link to Pharyngula from PZ's staff info page. Pretty gutless, but harmless. It would look a little less craven if they removed every link to personal websites.

But Great Cthuhlu! Who knew of the great powers of the mighty PZM!? Quick, pass the noodles!

Posted by: Cheezits | July 11, 2008 4:06 PM

We shall not rest until we have killed every cracker, cracker and cracker.

Now I'm skeered.

I'm hiding my Cheez-its.

Posted by: pbnj | July 11, 2008 4:07 PM

Blake Stacey (#119):

So shouldn't PZ mock himself for calling Minneapolis his "backyard?" Or is it only considered stupid when a Catholic uses such a metaphor?

Posted by: Tim H | July 11, 2008 4:08 PM

I think that it is extremely despicable that the Catholic League is drawing PZ's ilk into this affair. I for one had no idea he had an ilk, and am sure sure the ilk would never intentionally harm anyone. If fact, I think we would all agree that we would like PZ to post some pictures of his ilk somewhere on the site, along with a few random pieces of biographical data concerning it. And to the faithheads--- HANDS OFF PZ's ILK!

Posted by: Dean | July 11, 2008 4:09 PM

I'm not sure whether "C.J. Simones" is blind, foolish, unable to read, or unable to comprehend the input of others, but somehow he has missed these points:
- it was some Catholic folk who first sent death threats to a kid who did something (I consider to be) stupid but not illegal
- it was Bill Donahue who said that failing to eat a cracker and or threatening to defile(?) a cracker was worse than a real physical threat to a true Catholic
- there have been at least four emailed death threats to Dr. Myers over his comments
- there has been plenty of well-deserved scorn and ridicule for the extremists of many religions on this site - heck, there has been plenty of the same for those who are extreme and foolish without religion
- Catholicism itself is not being singled out here, and was never the point of the original post. That post was about the incredibly irrational behavior of a few individuals who happen to be Catholic (and apparently, not very bright, but I digress)
I'm not sure what point(s) "C.J. Simones" thinks he is making, is trying to make, or whether he is capable of doing any more than repeating the same empty comeback. Unfortunately, several posts from those who support Dr. Meyers are doing the same thing.
Why pick on "C. J. Simones"? He stands out, I guess, because of the cut-and-paste foolishness he demonstrates. I fear that after the huge number of posts made over the previous 1.5 days that it is too late for a discussion that is calm and reasoned on both sides - then again, given the foolishness over which this began, reason has never been involved.

Posted by: pbnj | July 11, 2008 4:09 PM

I'll probably be killfiled (again) because I broke the Pharyngula golden rule: "Do not point out the stupidity and hypocrisy of the blog owner."

Posted by: JD | July 11, 2008 4:10 PM

So pbnj, I know you feel strongly about the whole "backyard controversy", how about telling us how you feel about Catholics issuing death threats over a cracker?

Posted by: pbnj | July 11, 2008 4:10 PM

But I still think it's funny that the university kicked off the links to your blog.

Posted by: Lakanish | July 11, 2008 4:10 PM

C.J. Simones
Yes. It's really a shame that PZ only takes on Christianity. If only, only there were some way to "look up" or "search" the site for references to Islam, we could prove that he secretly loves Muslims! If only there was a way to "search"...OH WAIT!!! A SEARCH FIELD!!

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2006/03/watch_out_for_the_mudghah_on.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/02/it_could_be_worse.php
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/08/turkish_ass_shuts_down_a_slice.php

And, of course, my personal favorite. In this one PZ offers to urinate, pet train with, and burn a Quran.

http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/07/desecration_its_a_fun_hobby.php

Hey, PZ, how many death threats did you get from the Muslims for that one? And how many from the Catholics for this? Just like statistics, that's all.

Everybody else: sorry, I know I should've ignored the troll.

Posted by: pbnj | July 11, 2008 4:13 PM

JD (#138)

I don't know. How do *you* feel about atheists issuing death threats over a being they don't even believe in?

Posted by: jonathan | July 11, 2008 4:14 PM

I have an admission to make: I didn't bat an eyelash when PZ said he received death threats, and I thought it eminently sensible of him not to take them very seriously.

But I was a little shocked to hear that atheists might be sending death threats to Catholics. A type of confirmation bias on my part, I suppose. It just seems like atheists aren't the "death threat" kind of people. If it's true, I think I'm going to be a little disappointed in us.

Posted by: DrB | July 11, 2008 4:14 PM

His concern is for the safety of Catholics attending this year's Republican National Convention in Minneapolis, Myers' backyard.

The last two words are just a hat tip. The real concern is all of the Minnesota Lutherans. We all know how well it worked out last time Catholics and Lutherans mixed it up.

Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 11, 2008 4:16 PM

So shouldn't PZ mock himself for calling Minneapolis his "backyard?" Or is it only considered stupid when a Catholic uses such a metaphor?

I never thought I'd be spending today explaining why a joke does not have to be literally true; that, for example, I could say that a scientific conference being held in New York as opposed to London or Tokyo is "practically in my backyard". What a puzzle that notion of context is, indeed!

I think we can add sense of humor to empathy and logic on the list of attributes bled away by doctrinaire Catholicism.

Posted by: Theodore | July 11, 2008 4:16 PM

Our master plan is coming to fruition. While they are occupied securing human beings, we shall be desecrating their wafers!

Mwahahaha!

Posted by: llewelly | July 11, 2008 4:17 PM

It's possible that Bill Donohue is trying to get PZ on the no-fly list. I suspect he'll fail, but we'll see.

Posted by: Meeee | July 11, 2008 4:18 PM

You mean I'm officially "ilk" now?

FINALLY! RECOGNITION!

Posted by: JD | July 11, 2008 4:19 PM

So you don't know how you feel about Catholics issuing death threats over a cracker. Gee, thought that would be a no brainer but I guess I gave you too much credit. Pretty much sums up your disgusting immorality not to mention any hint of following the teachings of the one whose flesh you think your consuming. WWJD? You are a reprehensible being.

Posted by: AJ | July 11, 2008 4:19 PM

If only catholics like Don'kno'who didn't take sex advice from an eighty-year-old virgin, they probably would be more fun to hang around with...

Posted by: mayhempix | July 11, 2008 4:20 PM

PZ... they must have found out about the lions crossed with human stem cells you have been cloning in the lab after hours.

Posted by: Kevin Anthoney | July 11, 2008 4:23 PM

If you want to strike a real blow against the oppressive myth of religion and show the true courage of your convictions, why don't you post a Mohammed caricature doing something unspeakable to a camel?

Because that would be gratuitously attacking religion, whereas we prefer to attack religion for a reason. In this case, the specific incident we're bashing involved Catholics, not Muslims, and going after Muslims for something Catholics did would be silly.

Posted by: pbnj | July 11, 2008 4:23 PM

JD (#158)

Since you didn't answer my question, you obviously have no problem with atheists sending theists death threats. Nice to know. Just another example of people living in glass houses throwing stones.

Cute attempt at sounding all righteously rational and more intellectual than thou, too, JD. "Thou foul theist beast! Get thee back to thine evil master with his sharp, nasty, pointy teeth! Begone, I say! Begone, non-heathen! In PZ's name!"

Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 11, 2008 4:23 PM

Of course they're not going to actually increase security over this. Just call for it, pander cheaply to paranoid Catholics (seriously, I doubt many of them care about this nonsense), and pretend to take it all very seriously.

Davetard is more scary (demented) than the whole of Pharyngula, and he's only a paper tiger trying to get some dying tard to take a shot at PZ.

Make sure the bridges are safe, and the Republicans won't have to worry about their convention.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

Posted by: Jason | July 11, 2008 4:24 PM

I didn't realise Catholics were allowed in the Republican party. I thought it was all Baptist these days.

Posted by: Snitzels | July 11, 2008 4:26 PM

Awwww, I'm sure C.J. feels much better now...

Posted by: Inky | July 11, 2008 4:27 PM

*reads entry*
*bursts spleen laughing*

Seriously, though, in the now famously infamous entry telling your squidlings to bring forth Catholic crackers, was there anything said to imply that your wrath would be brought down upon anything else? Did any of us actually threaten any physical harm to anyone except ourselves from laughing to death, or cerebral hemorrhaging?

Surely, these people are indeed prone to gigantic, and I mean, MONSTROUSLY HUGE leaps of faith. I suppose that is their self-professed badge of honor. They think SkyDaddyMan can do anything, and well, if crackers turn to flesh, then certainly it's not preposterous to assume that you, a mild-mannered academician (academicians are obviously well known for their superiority in things such as contact sports), would be capable of wreaking havoc on a whole mass of Republicans, even if at least half of whom are probably carrying concealed weapons.

Beyond the leap of faith, I'd say that this reeks of megalomania. "Oh, my gosh, I'm sooooo important! Because Big SkyDaddyMan loves ME! And He hates everyone I hate! I'm sooo religious! That's how I know I'm right--because the Bible says that everyone that I think is wrong is actually wrong! Go me! Oh no! He's going to take our crackers! ... Jesus crackers!! ... Jesus! QUICK! Bring out the National Guard!!"

I'd say, stfu and go work on something important, you pompous deluded self-righteous pricks. People are struggling in this country to have food and shelter and you practically go to war over some fucking crackers? Why don't they at least put those crackers to good use and pass them out to the homeless or something?

Incidentally--does the cracker turn into ALL of Jesus, or part of Jesus? It's really just a mouthful of Jesus, no? Do you get, say, his toe, or, maybe his holy elbow, or, if you're lucky, his weewee?

I guess, if you thought that the cracker was your Lord and Savior's weewee, then it's kinda understandable that you'd be really offended and threatened and that somehow letting His Almighty Weewee go says something very dire about you.

P.S. I could say "Penis", but "His Almighty Penis" has a grandeur and dignity that would not necessitate a multitude of people to defend its integrity. An Almighty Penis can stand up for itself. Weewee Crackers, on the other hand, justly require diligent protection.

Posted by: info_dump | July 11, 2008 4:28 PM

Hey, has anyone pointed out yet that this is ironic because PZ got death threats in HIS e-mail?

Oh. They have?

Still, it's pretty ironic, right?

Posted by: Ben Abbott | July 11, 2008 4:29 PM

Foley has asked the top GOP brass to provide additional security while in the Twin Cities so that Catholics can worship without fear of violence.

Are they worried someone might borrow another cracker, or that some atheist might cannibalize the flesh of the man-god?

Posted by: Tom | July 11, 2008 4:29 PM

Bwahahaha!!!!

Catholics are making death threats... and PZ is the dangerous one?

BwaHAHAHA!!! Oh, stop... it's too funny....

Islamo-envy strikes again!

I think Pat Condell had a few things to say about this. He aims at Muslims a bit, but it sooo applies to this situation. Links here:

http://youtube.com/user/patcondell
http://youtube.com/watch?v=mM2dC1iWzww

Posted by: Ghost of Minnesota | July 11, 2008 4:33 PM

I'm just glad PZ is generous enough to let me live in his backyard.

Posted by: chgo_liz | July 11, 2008 4:33 PM

Well, at least they've taken our minds off the fact that they (literally and figuratively) support child rapists.

Who would want to join these paragons of virtue? They're the real reason Jesus never bothered to return. He doesn't want to deal with having such wackos as followers.

(I'm skipping over the no-God-to-be-Son-of part of the story, of course.)

Posted by: mayhempix | July 11, 2008 4:34 PM

So I just spoke with Tom Foley in person on the phone and asked him why he asked for extra security and was it just a political ploy.

He told me he needs it because of the "uncertanty" that PZ's attacks on Catholicism has produced. I asked him to give one example where a Catholic was ever physically attacked by an atheist. He ignored the question. When I asked about the death threats to PZ by Catholics he ignored me sand said he was everything leaving it up to the authorities and hung up.

Posted by: Mika H | July 11, 2008 4:37 PM

Conservative apologists need to come up with other material than the "you cowards always pick on christians because it's safe, what about the muslims?". They like throwing that red herring at liberals, but it's really humorous when used here.

Posted by: Jeff Schmidt | July 11, 2008 4:37 PM

Re: post's title

It involves religion. Of COURSE it can get more insane. There really isn't a limit, except maybe your own imagination.

Posted by: mayhemix | July 11, 2008 4:39 PM

However, as an atheist, I'm beginning to frankly find you an embarrassment.
Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 4:18 PM

Oh the irony!

Posted by: michel | July 11, 2008 4:40 PM

3 things:

- donohue's style comes across as really childish: "Myers says he is delighted to have finally garnered my attention. Too bad I can't say the same--I never heard of the guy until yesterday." this is high school stuff. just check the hitchens/donohue video on youtube, same stuff. and donohue's smile at the end says it all.

- it seems donohue hasn't received any death threats yet. good, it makes PZ and his ilk look good.. but wait what happens once donohue receives them.... he won't have a hard time connecting the dots... let's see what he comes up with.

- donohue claims to have won round one. but i guess removing that link from the university page, even if it came out of all this, won't do much to harm PZ's popularity. how many of you got to this blog through that link?

Posted by: Theodore | July 11, 2008 4:40 PM

I wonder if a church would actually pay a ransom for a wafer. Could be easy money. Don't even see a law that would be broken.

Posted by: Michelle | July 11, 2008 4:41 PM

Damn right you should increase security! I'm gonna steal all your crackers right here from my lazy seat in Quebec!

...Silly christians. They should remember which side is making the death threats.

Mr. Donohue, since you are obviously reading this... You're a dangerous freak, leading a sect of blind lapdog fools that would KILL for you, and you should be arrested. Not us.

Posted by: judgemc | July 11, 2008 4:41 PM

OMgravey! YOu have really hit the big time now. The nutballs over at freerepublic are debating about whether or not you have commited a hate crime.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2044104/posts

Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 11, 2008 4:42 PM

I think I perceive the problem. It's not that you offended Catholicism, it's that you insulted Bill Donohue. He is apparently willing to use any power or any apparatus with which he is entrusted to strike out at his perceived enemies. He's also a raving bag of nuts.

Posted by: JoJo | July 11, 2008 4:43 PM

"Of that ilk" means "of the same." It refers to the leader of a Scottish clan and his followers. "The Campbell of that ilk" is Laird Ian Campbell, head of the Campbell clan.

All hail PZ Myers of that ilk.

Posted by: Michelle | July 11, 2008 4:44 PM

@JudgeMC: He's certainly got the hate but there's no crime. Sucks to be them!

I love hatred.

Posted by: astrobiologiste | July 11, 2008 4:44 PM

In regards to cracker gate. It's actually their own fault. By mere prejudice and an obsession for keeping everything antiseptic, they started giving people the wafers in their hands, instead of placing in their mouths, like we do in inmunnologically sound Mexico.

Go back to putting them directly in people's mouths, and see what hard a time they have to take it out of there and steal it...

Really, it is getting way out of hand, mostly because some people have busted sarcasm-meters...

Posted by: Feynmaniac | July 11, 2008 4:46 PM

Ron in Houston concern trolled #175,
As a follow up - let's all give a big thanks to the great and esteemed PZ Myers. Now all atheists will be viewed as petty thieves trying to steal consecrated communion wafers.
PZ you're fired as my PR agent.

PZ has never tried to be a representative of atheism. He is simply an atheist with a blog. The fact that he has a high following speaks to the fact that alot of atheist agree with him. If you don't, good for you. Start your own blog on spout what you think the right prejudices of atheist should be.

Also, PZ just said was "Can anyone out there score me some consecrated communion wafers?". He never advocated stealing. How can you steal something that the priest gives to you?

Posted by: BMcP | July 11, 2008 4:47 PM

Although now I have achieved the status of "ilk" I have yet to achieve official "minion" status, how does one go about doing that? Eating lots of crackers? ;)

Posted by: Kseniya | July 11, 2008 4:49 PM

C.J.Simones

LOL!

Posted by: mayhempix | July 11, 2008 4:49 PM

#186 ...When I asked about the death threats to PZ by Catholics he ignored me sand said he was everything leaving it up to the authorities and hung up.
Posted by: mayhempix | July 11, 2008 4:34 PM

That damn satan is at again making my fingers do his bidding.

Make that: ... he ignored me and said he was leaving everything up to the authorities and hung up.

Posted by: AJ Milne | July 11, 2008 4:50 PM

Do you have any real world examples? Have you ever seen an atheist send a death threat to anyone or was it just a friend of a friend of your cousin's best man's sister's god daughter's cousin who heard something about that? Apparently in your world, the logic goes something like this: "I've never seen an atheist send a death threat to a theist, so obviously atheists do so."

Now, Mena, you must realize that this is Sophisticated Theology(TM) we're dealing with here, not logic. And under Sophisticated Theology(TM), our troll needs no positive evidence that PZ and a ravening horde of zombie atheists are spoiling to beat up Catholics. See, under Sophisticated Theology(TM), if you can imagine something to be true, even in a complete absence of evidence, you don't need evidence for it. You just have to formulate your claim in such a fashion that your opponent cannot precisely disprove the claim (yes, the one for which you actually have no evidence), however outlandish it might be...

Now, I know this is confusing. So perhaps an example will help:

Let's say someone swipes yer wallet. You chase him down the beach, try to grab him... He trips, you get him down, try to get it back...

Coupla bystanders run up, figure it's just a brawl, separate you...

Then the crook says the whole thing was a frameup. A giant purple dragon actually done it, handed it him, then disappeared. He was running from the dragon, not you...

See, the bystanders, being reasonable people, will have to accept this. It's Sophisticated Theology(TM), see? And formally, under Sophisticated Theology(TM) they can't disprove the crook's claim, however bonkers it may sound to you.

Ergo: riot cops at the convention.

Really, it all makes sense.

Posted by: Helioprogenus | July 11, 2008 4:51 PM

What's with all the Catholic Apologists in these threads crying about how we're tearing your beliefs apart. Why wouldn't we, when you so clearly cherish imaginary bullshit. Indoctrination is a difficult concept to break away from, but you have to at least recognize that under different circumstances, you would be arguing about how prophet mohammed can help stear us towards glory with virgins, or that slapping on a tiny hat on our heads will show some imaginary deity that we're subservient to his imaginary power of control over us, or that by eating a hamburger, we're consuming the tasty and oh so scrumptious flesh of our gods, or that by reciting the same sound over and over again, we'll be closer to every living thing in the universe, etc... All you fuckers are the same in that your indoctrinated bullshit is ingrained so deep, you can't break free from it; yet had you been raised in a different environment, your tune would be completely different as well. You'll laugh behind the backs of Jehova's witnesses or Mormons, but your beliefs are not less stupid. You drink the blood and consume the flesh of that which you believe to be your god, who's been dead for over two millenia, with his actual existence disuptable because of the paltry sources from some useless corner of the then Roman world. Just step back from your abject stupidity, and look at the idiocy of your belief structure, and then if you don't find the humor in it, you can continue to live your life wasting your time believing in an half-rate imaginary story.

Posted by: JoJo | July 11, 2008 4:52 PM

Catholics aren't known for voting Republican.

Bill Donohue is an unabashed neocon. In both the 2000 and 2004 elections he strongly and loudly supported Bush.

There's nobody in the United States Senate who has a more radical voting record on abortion than John Kerry. He's never found an abortion that he couldn't justify.

I'm saying if a Catholic votes for Kerry because they support him on abortion rights that is to cooperate in evil.

...most observers, regardless of their political bent, agree that President George W. Bush seems at home with his Christianity.

George W. Bush can be counted upon to do what is Christian. That's what all Catholics, indeed all Christians, need to know about him.

Posted by: Damian | July 11, 2008 4:53 PM

This thread is pretty damn hilarious. I must congratulate the participants for helping to maintain the 100% (as far as I am aware) ratio of Catholics who couldn't give a rats ass about death threats -- well, PZ is probably making it all up, right? -- but cannot control their rage over the fact that a cracker was threatened with molestation.

One of them has even suggested that the reason that PZ has gone on to commit a suicide bombing is because they have been praying for him! (well, kind of)

Posted by: Spook | July 11, 2008 4:54 PM

Alex @ #131

Oh come on now. I think we've at least reached the classification of "hoards of commenters".

I prefer "legion" of commenters. :D

Posted by: Alex | July 11, 2008 4:55 PM

Thanks for the clarification AJ. It all makes sense now thanks to you. Sophisticated Theology - why, it's simple really!

Posted by: Itzac | July 11, 2008 4:58 PM

Does the US have a right to freedom of assembly? Does that freedom include a box of Ritz? You could all protest outside the RNC by quietly and sullenly eating crackers in twos or threes on every street corner for a few blocks surrounding the event.

Posted by: TSC | July 11, 2008 4:58 PM

Benny want a cracker??

Posted by: spgreenlaw | July 11, 2008 4:59 PM

Oh dear, I've gone and dumped my comment in the wrong place. Sorry, just a bit overwhelmed by the stupidity of people.

Posted by: Rich P. | July 11, 2008 4:59 PM

"Spare me your self-pitying drivel. For someone that holds Christianity in such contempt you sure nail the part of the martyr. You know darn well there'll be no Christians issuing fatwas calling for your head to be cut off (or if its Rev. Jackson, other unnecessary appendages).

If you want to strike a real blow against the oppressive myth of religion and show the true courage of your convictions, why don't you post a Mohammed caricature doing something unspeakable to a camel?

You Christian-bashers are all the same: cowardly self-aggrandizers."

I apologize to Prof. Myers if I am wrong here, but I honestly think he would wear a declaration of fatwa or jihad or whatever the term is as a badge of honor, or at the very least find it amusing.

Posted by: Kylgar | July 11, 2008 5:00 PM

Wow, I would find this absolutely hilarious if it wasn't actually happening. Instead, I'm just more and more fearful of the power and popularity of the American Taliban...

Posted by: RAM | July 11, 2008 5:02 PM

Typical Republican Christian spin.
1. Cause hate and discontent.
2. Feign shock and indignation when someone questions or ridicules their exceedingly silly superstitions.
3. Call in armed forces to surround them from the imagined evil people around them, with much fanfare,
4. Gnash teeth and rend hair on how poor helpless Christians, who only want to love their fellow man, are being persecuted.

I'll bet this will be on Fox News soon as the "evil Atheist conspiracy" against

Posted by: Michelle | July 11, 2008 5:03 PM

@Sandi: You call us bigots? You're a God groupie! He's the biggest bigot of 'em all! Read the bible!

Posted by: Kobra | July 11, 2008 5:04 PM

"After reading Myers' illogical, vitriolic, and puerile rants against Catholics, I've come to the realization that he must be partially right about evolution. I don't know about the rest of us folks, but he is most certainly just a few swings away from being a monkey!! You Myers groupies are so incredibly hate-filled and intolerant. What a bunch of bigots."

Hate-filled? Intolerant? The CATHOLICS are the ones sending HIM death threats. What part of that doesn't register in your brain?

Posted by: Rol | July 11, 2008 5:05 PM

Someone should make some toilet paper with alternating images of jesus and mohammad on it, maybe with zeus, odin, and thor on it too, just so they don't feel left out.

Posted by: Theodore | July 11, 2008 5:06 PM

Hey - I have a great idea! Let's harass the Olive Garden. His Noodly Appendages are being desecrated there.

Same as the wafer. Right?

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 5:06 PM

PZ

Yes, you are not your business card. If you irrationally get your sense of identity from your business card then you're really kind of crazy.

However, if I come up to you and get you to give me your business card when otherwise you'd tell me to shove off by the use of false pretenses then I've done something that is flat out wrong.

That's what you've done. Just like it was wrong the way the Expelled people got interviews with Dawkins etc., what (on the surface) your post seems to request is for people to go into Catholic churches and under false pretenses take what they view as precious.

It's wrong. It's stupid. It's just abusive. Are you too wrapped up in being PZ Myers the famous atheist to see this?

If you are then your business card has more moral value than you.

Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 11, 2008 5:09 PM

Not a problem, mayhempix. I used to be a Catholic. In fact, I even have a golden medallion presented to me by the Archbishop of Lithuania after I served Mass for him when he came to Edmonton. Thank God for Catholic ritual, as I don't speak a word of Lithuanian but still knew when to ring the bells.

What part of that doesn't register in your brain?

Kobra, by inquiring as to what 'registers' in a Goddist's brain (especially one that thinks that evolution=humans from monkeys) you're committing the logical fallacy known as 'begging the question.'

Posted by: Kobra | July 11, 2008 5:09 PM

Ron in Houston: You should learn not to take things too seriously; be it yourself or words on the internet.

Posted by: Neural Transmissions | July 11, 2008 5:10 PM

You gotta love this line:

By the way, Myers says he is delighted to have finally garnered my attention. Too bad I can't say the same--I never heard of the guy until yesterday.

Yeah, well more people have heard of Charles Manson that Bill Donohue, but that's not necessarily a good thing.

As for desecrating a wafer, why not just buy some online and do something to them? Who will know the difference? In fact, it's a great way to get the point across.

I can say a few words in Pig Latin and wave my hand over my cat, thus declaring it to be a dog. Sure it looks like a cat and acts like a cat, and if you sequenced some of it's DNA, it would come back as cat DNA. But it's a dog I tell you. Why? Because I performed magik! Not that silly James Randi crap. I mean real magik!

Posted by: Kobra | July 11, 2008 5:11 PM

"Kobra, by inquiring as to what 'registers' in a Goddist's brain (especially one that thinks that evolution=humans from monkeys) you're committing the logical fallacy known as 'begging the question.'"

Yes, I see. How silly of me.

Posted by: Alex | July 11, 2008 5:13 PM

" Does anyone see that it's insulting to ask for a gift that you're going to destroy..."

Again, no one has the right to not be insulted. And since when does an (verbal) insult warrant death? Such evil rationalizations you religionists are capable of.

Posted by: will | July 11, 2008 5:14 PM

Replace Eucharist with Koran and every one of you would be apoplectic over our lack of reverence for the Muslim holy book. But a revered Catholic symbol, not so much right. You've spun yourself into irrelevance. I've heard more reason from 12 yr olds.

Posted by: Jaytee | July 11, 2008 5:15 PM

I think the best thing that may come out of this really enjoyable little kerfuffle, will be that hoards of catholics who didn't realise cannabalism was mandatory may now decide to give up their religion.

Posted by: Chris Bell | July 11, 2008 5:16 PM

By "King Kong theory" I think he means that we think we're just super-apes.

...Which we do think, I guess.

Posted by: Jaytee | July 11, 2008 5:16 PM

I think the best thing that may come out of this really enjoyable little kerfuffle, will be that hoards of catholics who didn't realise cannabalism was mandatory may now decide to give up their religion.

Posted by: Phil Gramm | July 11, 2008 5:18 PM

Christ on a Cracker, what a bunch of whiners.

Posted by: Neural Transmissions | July 11, 2008 5:19 PM

Will @ 264

Nonsense. We were just as critical of the hysterical reaction of the Muslim community over those Danish cartoons. Many of the more famous atheists, including Harris and Dawkins, have called their reaction ridiculous.

Posted by: Sauceress | July 11, 2008 5:20 PM

Things may have changed, but I thought (from a few forum discussions I read a few years back) that the majority of the official Catholic institution distanced itself from the CC? I'd got the impression that CC were somewhat of an embarrassment to the main company? Had a look at the Wiki on it but it's a bit ambiguous on that front.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_League_(U.S.)

It's probably come up somewhere, but I gave up trying to read ALL the posts about a 1000 or so posts back. :)

Posted by: Hessenroots | July 11, 2008 5:21 PM

@ 264

Try reading a few of the posts in this thread on the subject of Muslim Envy. This argument got old about 2,000 posts ago.

It doesn't matter. Cracker, book, beaded necklace, little gold pendant, depressing visage of a dead guy hanging on the wall...it's all same no matter whom claims it's holy/divine/whatever.

Posted by: Dutch Delight | July 11, 2008 5:21 PM

It's high time we hear from the pope, a good part of his flock seems set to convert to islam judging from their posts here.

Posted by: Bronze Dog | July 11, 2008 5:26 PM

*If* there were any atheists giving out death threats (which I think is quite reasonable to doubt, given my experience), they deserve the maximum slap the law can give.

Now let's hear the Catholics say the same for their side. Quite frankly, I think they should be focusing their efforts demanding their church promise to investigate any further Catholic-originating threats and excommunicate the offenders. If we had any such organization, I'd be pushing for the same.

Instead, I only see one or two Catholics willing to denounce this terrorism. The rest whine and whine and whine about how rude we are, calling for a ban on speech.

If I were to hypothetically come across an atheist who made similar death threats on my blog, I'd ban them within moments. That's what this is about: Death threats from would-be terrorists, just like it was with the Danish cartoons and violent extremist Muslims who were making public threats. There are so many Catholics showing up here who want to pretend that death threats and physical violence are trivial in the face of 'rudeness'.

Posted by: Facehammer | July 11, 2008 5:26 PM

Excuse me while I give a hearty belly laugh, long and loud.

Let them keep digging themselves ever deeper into this preposterous hole, I say. It would be one of the great cosmic ironies if all this hysterical bluster to try to protect their outraged, violated dignity ended up causing them a major loss of respect.

Posted by: Alan | July 11, 2008 5:28 PM

PZ,
For what it's worth, most of the Catholics I know (myself included) would stand with you before we stood with Donahue on any issue - he isn't well liked.

I honestly didn't know that Donahue was an IDiot - which is especially strange as the Church's official position is that evolution and the Catholic faith are completely compatible.

I may not agree with your statement asking for Eucharists to desecrate, but I would at most attempt to open communication to ask for you to consider that what is worthless to you is meaningful to a great number of people. You are, however, completely free to do whatever you choose, and I'd stand up to defend not only your right to point out the ridiculousness of our beliefs, but also your right to be free from violence, or even threats of violence, for pointing such things out.

Posted by: Helioprogenus | July 11, 2008 5:30 PM

#279, Ron in Houston, you obviously are not an atheist. Who cares what PZ said about some imaginary piece of shit belief? If he had said the same thing about some shamanistic bullcrap, you wouldn't care less. What offends you delicate sensibilities? The fact that PZ and his "ilk" are willing to trample all over some hypocritical, supposedly sanctimonious garbage that does not deserve the respect that some of you apologists bestow upon it. What does it matter what edict the fucking Pope says? He's a fallible human being, just as fallible as you or I, but some idiots treat him like a bridge to an imaginary deity. How can you not feel the weight of bullshit, and the only way to plow out of it is through logic, humour, satire, and a heafty dose of realism.

Posted by: Alex | July 11, 2008 5:31 PM

Ron,

I'll respectfully disagree.

I don't need PZ to tell me to infiltrate and take the god crackers. And IMO there's nothing wrong with him doing so because no crime is being committed. Nothing. Nada. All that is happening is some people that espouse indefensible ideas are not able to defend their indefensible ideas and are getting their feelings hurt because their indefensible ideas are so feeble that they have to make death threats in order to protect them.

Maybe THEY should do some introspection and either get a thicker skin or better yet, start espousing ideas that can compete in an arena of rational debate.

No one has the right to not be insulted.

Posted by: Kobra | July 11, 2008 5:31 PM

@287 (that is the accepted standard, right?):

It's a gross over-generalization to say that the Catholic Church as a whole is a "paedophile ring."

Posted by: b_nichol | July 11, 2008 5:33 PM

To be fair, Dr Myers did threaten to do harm to a cracker.

Threatening a cracker. Like in 'Pulp Fiction' when Ving Rhames' character is going call up some brothers with some pliers and a blowtorch?

Oh. Not that type of cracker.

Never mind.

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 5:34 PM

Kobra

i understand that PZ didn't actively advocate for people to go into Catholic churches and steal their communion wafers. However, that was following his public statements that he was engaging in satire.

Unless and until someone "connects the dots," on the surface it appears that PZ is doing just that. It appears that PZ is saying, "please my dear readers, get me that dumb-ass cracker so I can do un-natural acts to it online."

Just as we see the hypocrisy in "hate the sin but love the sinner" there is a distinct hypocrisy in "ridicule the belief but not the believer."

It's BS and PZ needs to set the public record straight.

Posted by: MikeM | July 11, 2008 5:36 PM

Ron in Houston, you're wrong. You won't find anyone who rejects the existence of a spirit world more than me. I don't believe there is one, period.

Yet, I completely reject the idea of infiltrating Catholic churches to kidnap more meaty bits. I strongly suggest we not do that. I suspect most of us feel the same way. Trust me, I have no intention of entering a Catholic church at any point in the future. It won't happen.

This is about speaking out against an organization that is accusing the student of a hate crime. You need to look up a few definitions; assault, kidnapping, hate crime... The charges do not fit.

Was it irreverant? Yes. Was it funny? I didn't find it so.

Was it a crime? No. It does not fit the definition of crime.

When I was a Catholic, I always figured that the consecration of the host was symbolic. I never thought people thought they were actually eating the meat of Jesus. Indeed, no such transformation takes place. You can prove that. And even that doesn't take away from the "holiness" of the Eucharist; a symbolic transformation ain't bad in my book. It helps them remember their Savior.

Did the student sign a contract that he'd eat the host? If so, yeah, I guess he violated the terms of that contract. Show me where he guaranteed he'd eat it, and not take it home. It was given to him; it was his property. In my mind, it was just a consecrated cracker.

I absolutely guarantee you one thing: If the GOP spends extra money to guard Catholic churches in Minnesota during the convention, it will be wasted money. I hope some of the extra security guards they hire are atheists. I'd say it's a lock some of them will be.

Sorry to go on. Enjoy your weekend.

Posted by: JoJo | July 11, 2008 5:37 PM

That the Catholic Church is a pedophile ring is an exaggeration. It's estimated that less than 4% of all North American priests are pedophiles. However, to say that many if not most Catholic bishops are pedophile protectors is not an exaggeration.

BTW, Donahue doesn't really see a problem with either the pedophile priests or their bishops. He's mainly concerned with outside insults to Catholicism. Insults and outright outrages coming from within are less important to him.

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 5:38 PM

Alex

I'm sorry for your belief. You're really no better than them.

Posted by: Sauceress | July 11, 2008 5:39 PM

Ad Hominid #275

"Has Professor Myers engaged in a hate crime?"

Linky no work! :(

Posted by: Kobra | July 11, 2008 5:40 PM

@300:
"However, to say that many if not most Catholic bishops are pedophile protectors is not an exaggeration."

Valid point.

Posted by: karen marie | July 11, 2008 5:41 PM

okay, so i'm through approximately comment #586 on the thread posted on 7/10 at 4:18pm when i decided to follow someone's suggestion to a troll that they google "catholic death threat."

very interesting to see what pops up.

i clicked on a link for a post at "catholic answers" so i can see what kinds of things are being said over there and this is the welcome i get:

Catholic Answers Forums
[SNIP]
You are not logged in or you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:
You are not logged in. Fill in the form at the bottom of this page and try again.
You may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post or access administrative features or some other privileged system?
If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.
[SNIP]
The administrator may have required you to register before you can view this page.

http://forums.catholic.com/showthread.php?p=3907840

i guess they need me to give them an active email address they can flog in exchange for me perusing an otherwise public forum.

and here i was going out of my way to actually read what they're saying rather than just assume that the trolls and godbots [i lurnd mee uh interntz trudihshun tuhdaa en uh uhrleeurh thred] are even in small part representative of catholics. but i'm turning the other cheek and will not assume such. in spite of their willingless to permit bill donahue and the catholic league [every time i type that, i giggle because each time it sounds more and more like a band name] to speak on their behalf.

i've never been to a rave but the experience of reading well over a thousand posts leaves me feeling like i've been at a very, very crowded party in a very large warehouse with very loud music and pulsing lights. it's hilarious and exhilarating, but i have to pause in respectful silence at the thought of pz myers reading literally the entire multi-thread thread.

i hope by now most of you have read the further details of this story and understand that webster cook did not set out that morning to steal anything but was assaulted inside the church and left as a result.

unless webster cook chose to be a nice guy, the layer on of hands could be criminally charged for grabbing his arm and attempting to pry his fingers open.

the depth of the wrongness here expands as one follows each thread to its original source. the catholic church has definitely come out on the losing end on this one, cut in any one of a number of possible ways.

Posted by: Dan | July 11, 2008 5:42 PM

PZ, I am looking forward to what you are going to do next after you finish with the cracker? One possibility is to take the bible or koran and use the pages to wipe your butt and post the images on your site /sarcasm. I am an Atheist and agreed with your first post about the student, but inciting your readers to steal a cracker so you can desecrate it is going a little overboard. While I hope your university president will support you on freedom of speech grounds, if I was him, I would be mighty pissed. Its one thing to be an Atheist another to be a Atheist Zealot. Its like calling the kettle black.

Posted by: Trent Eady | July 11, 2008 5:45 PM

The farcicality of this ordeal is rising exponentially.

Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 11, 2008 5:45 PM

You Myers groupies are so incredibly hate-filled and intolerant. What a bunch of bigots.

I'm not hate-filled, intolerant, or bigoted. I'm dismissive and contemptuous - it's a whole different vibe.

Posted by: Peter B | July 11, 2008 5:46 PM

Bill Donohue and his ilk don't seem to care much about athiests receiving death threats on account of his actions. Perhaps he doesn't actually regard them as human? Unlike the biscuit at the centre of this row. You're right - utter insanity.

Posted by: Kobra | July 11, 2008 5:47 PM

@315:

Stale like a discarded cracker?

Posted by: raven | July 11, 2008 5:47 PM

Does the US have a right to freedom of assembly? Does that freedom include a box of Ritz? You could all protest outside the RNC by quietly and sullenly eating crackers in twos or threes on every street corner for a few blocks surrounding the event.

It's time people!!! Brilliant idea!!! I'm stealing it!!!!

It is time for Cracker Ins. In this performance art event, people will gather with boxes and bags of crackers. Toppings and dips are optional but highly encouraged. They will then silently and reverently eat the crackers. Unless they want to talk, drink beverages, or sing hymns about their crackers.

Ritz are barely OK. A variety of crackers should be available for trades and sharing. Ritz, Cheez It, water, soda, Sociable, Nips, and so on.

Cracker Ins will have to be combined with other activities. Who would drive miles just to eat crackers with fellow travelers? They would go well with the latest civil or criminal trials of Catholic priests. These are happening on a regular basis.

Posted by: Boosterz | July 11, 2008 5:49 PM

"Did PZ advance the cause of atheism? I say no."

We have a cause? News to me. Just out of curiosity, how many new converts to your cookie cult do you guys think you've won over in the last two days hmm? LOL

Posted by: Pleco | July 11, 2008 5:50 PM

I think the thing that bothers the theists the most is that they know there is absolutely nothing they can do to any symbol or idea held by atheists that would get them as upset as they are.

Burn a photo of Darwin? Go ahaed.
Defecate on a copy of "The God Delusion". Knock yerself out.
Make fun of Prof. Myers' octopi? Close, but no cigarillo.

No "eye for an eye" type revenge here. And oddly enough, the "turn the other cheek" admonishment seems to have been forgotten in all of this.

Of course, none of this would have happened if the original incident had not occurred - and by original incident I mean the reaction to the cracker removal. It is only when certain theists started to threaten the student with expulsion and physical violence that the blogsphere even noticed.

FWIW I sent my email to the university yesterday.

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 5:51 PM

Kobra

You're so erudite. I tremble at your brilliance.

Do you even know what the phrase ad hominem attack means?

Posted by: Kobra | July 11, 2008 5:53 PM

Ron in Houston: I was unaware that we were in an intellectually honest debate setting. At least, not from reading your posts.

Also, it's a reworded quote from 8-Bit Theater. Learn to stop taking yourself so fucking seriously.

Posted by: Djur | July 11, 2008 5:54 PM

"Hollywood is controlled by secular Jews who hate Christianity in general and Catholicism in particular. It's not a secret, okay? And I'm not afraid to say it. ... Hollywood likes anal sex. They like to see the public square without nativity scenes. I like families. I like children. They like abortions."

Posted by: ddr | July 11, 2008 5:55 PM

Yep. I'll bet this little incident will spawn a whole urban legend about organized atheists going to mass to steal crackers. There will be extra security at mass to prevent people from walking away with the cracker and for years they will be talking about this. They will tell the story over and over about how the great evil one, PZ Myers, collects crackers that have been consecrated, holds beer parties and then every one pisses on the crackers. They will look at suspicion at anyone who buys a case of beer, but is not wearing a cross.

And all of you can say that you were there when the legend was born

Posted by: Carlie | July 11, 2008 5:56 PM

Wow. If you put all the comments about this event together, this might outrank the "PZ gets kicked out of Expelled" saga in comments/minute. Of course, that was pathetic and immensely funny, and this is just pathetic.

Hint: When you're defending making death threats against someone who laughed at a cracker, ur doin religion wrong.

Posted by: Rachel | July 11, 2008 5:57 PM

C.J. Simones @ 89: If you want to be spared from PZ's writing, why do you read it?!? It's really easy: you just click somewhere else and you shall be spared! And you know the coolest thing about it? It's in your control!

Posted by: craig | July 11, 2008 5:59 PM

"You Myers groupies are so incredibly hate-filled and intolerant. What a bunch of bigots."

I keep saying this, but I'll say it again.
Criticizing someone's gender, race or other inborn characteristic is bigotry.

Criticizing someone's ideas can be correct, incorrect, rude, funny... whatever. But it can NEVER be bigotry.

ALL ideas are fair game for criticism. The good ideas will stand up to it. The bad ones won't. Criticism of ideas is not only always fair, it is necessary - especially criticism of dangerous, illogical ideas.

To claim that criticism of your ideas is bigotry is not only wrong, it's pure cowardice.

If your beliefs could be logically defended, you would be happy to do so. But you can't. So you hide behind the incorrect "bigotry" claim.

Which makes you not only a coward, but also a rather vile person. Millions of people have suffered and died because they were the targets of TRUE bigotry. They were tortured and murdered. Many of them by Catholics.

The fact that you appropriate the horror over TRUE bigotry to try to shield your indefensibly stupid ideas from the examination and criticism that ALL ideas warrant makes you a person worthy of no respect.

Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 11, 2008 5:59 PM

I prefer "legion" of commenters. :D

Posted by: gdlchmst | July 11, 2008 6:01 PM

Hint: When you're defending making death threats against someone who laughed at a cracker, ur doin religion wrong.

I wasn't aware that there was a way of doing religion right.

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 6:02 PM

You people are truly amazing. Yes, atheism has no "cause." However, atheists have a very distinct PR problem. Does this bile really help anyone not an atheist to understand that we're not irrational immoral baby killers? Frankly I'd say no.

I'd be the first to draft a lengthy expose about how Catholicism damages society. However, I also have to acknowledge that regardless of their perverted motivations, they also do some good things in society.

On the surface what PZ advocated is just mean spirited and wrong. He subsequently gave an interview where he admitted that he was engaging in satire. All of you folks laughing and slapping him on the back going "Good one PZ" are in my opinion part of the problem with how atheists are perceived.

We're not much different from the theists who threatened PZ's job and life when we engage in the bile I've seen on this blog. Maybe we didn't go quite as far, but you folks are just being insensitive fucking twits.

Posted by: Reed Braden | July 11, 2008 6:03 PM

Great... now they're just giving PZ what he wants. You folks at the CL are doing a great job!

(eye roll)

Posted by: Caveat | July 11, 2008 6:05 PM

The fundie schtick was stale the moment it emerged. As mentioned in the other thread about the Cookie Caper, it's doubtful that these people are even RCs.

Sure, these hypocritical nimrods need protection from imaginary evil people. There's Betelgeuse, for example, not to mention his minions.

Maybe they have a reason to be apprehensive about visiting their morbidly decorated, gloomy houses of self-delusion and mind-numbing learning by rote. After all, a quick review of history reveals that during many centuries, religious followers have been mercilessly persecuted by organized atheists.

Posted by: tim rowledge | July 11, 2008 6:05 PM

Remember the original issue that caused all this; all that PZ needs to do in order to " show you sacrilege, gladly, and with much fanfare" is accept a Wholly-Cracker(tm) and not eat it! Oh the eeeeevil.

Posted by: pcarini | July 11, 2008 6:06 PM

Ron in Houston @ #344

We're not much different from the theists who threatened PZ's job and life when we engage in the bile I've seen on this blog. Maybe we didn't go quite as far, but you folks are just being insensitive fucking twits.

Even if I were to concede Insensitive Twittery, it is far far _far_ different from violence, threat of violence or murder, or threat to livelihood.

Ideas are NOT people, attacking one is not at all equivalent to attacking the other.

Posted by: PA | July 11, 2008 6:07 PM

"Subjunctive tense" oops.

Posted by: OctoberMermaid | July 11, 2008 6:09 PM

#344

"I'd be the first to draft a lengthy expose about how Catholicism damages society."

So do it if you think it'd really help more than what PZ's doing. If nothing else, it will DEFINITELY help more than whining like you have been.

I mean, I hate to be so rude like that, but you're wasting your time and ours. But mostly just yours, since you're the one saying you could do all of this so much better.

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 6:11 PM

OctoberMermaid

I have a very thick skin.

Look, my only concern is that if we want to stake a moral high ground and show that religion is a dangerous meme that causes bigotry and hatred, then we'd best not look like hateful bigots.

Posted by: CrypticLife | July 11, 2008 6:12 PM

"Can this possibly get more insane?"

Is that a trick question?

Well, BD is right about the hysteria part; I know some of the reaction has had me laughing hysterically.

I haven't seen any atheists threatening Catholics with death. What would be the point of that sort of foolishness?

Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 11, 2008 6:13 PM

PZ, I admire and respect you, but, as a moderate agnostic, I don't think what you're doing is good for the movement. We can't see eye to eye. There ain't no good guy. There ain't no bad guy. There's only you and me, and we just disagree.

I don't agree with you Ames, but I love that you pulled a little Dave Mason on us.

Posted by: pcarini | July 11, 2008 6:14 PM

Communion crackers are readily available on the web.

Yes, but they have to be blessed by a priest before they're fully capable of offending a Catholic.

Posted by: sailor | July 11, 2008 6:15 PM

"That the Catholic Church is a pedophile ring is an exaggeration. It's estimated that less than 4% of all North American priests are pedophiles."

Nearly 4%! That really does give new meaning to expressions like "suffer little children": and
"turn the other cheek"

Posted by: gdlchmst | July 11, 2008 6:15 PM

we'd best not look like hateful bigots.

Pissed off? Yes. Hateful bigotry? Not even the same ball park.

Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 11, 2008 6:16 PM

I won't be wasting my time and typing fingers if I didn't feel that PZ was not helping but in fact causing harm.

Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 11, 2008 6:19 PM

Is anyone else wondering where Jack Chick's allegiance will fall in this matter? I mean, in one corner, we've got TEH ATHIEST, who is a librul Darwinist to boot; but in the other corner, weighing in at four metric tons of bowel-impacting fæces, we've got the people who worship THE DEATH COOKIE. This might be the logic loop we've all been waiting for: raise the deflector screens to guard yourselves from exploding brains.

Posted by: mena | July 11, 2008 6:21 PM

jpf @ 325, here are some more hilarious freeper quotes. Bolding mine as well.
He's too big a coward to insult islam. Myers would sooner grow a beard and start carrying around a prayer rug for fear of his life. He knows Catholics won't actually hurt him.
12 posted on 7/11/2008 1:26:09 PM by Sgt_Schultze

I don't know. Once, at a mass at a monastery, I realized I was going to choke on a host, and quickly left the chapel into the hallway, where I coughed it into my hand and then consumed it immediately.
I wiped my eyes, and there was one of the monks beside me. I suspect that there is always someone watching.
I would think that most, if not all, churches are on the alert for this, due to the number of Satanic cults or others who would profane the Host, if they could.
16 posted on 7/11/2008 2:27:24 PM by Judith Anne

Breathing out of their noses-they're doing it wrong.

Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 11, 2008 6:23 PM

We're not much different from the theists who threatened PZ's job and life when we engage in the bile I've seen on this blog. Maybe we didn't go quite as far, but you folks are just being insensitive fucking twits.

You're right. Why, just the other day, I tried to pay $34.08 for a plane ticket from Edmonton (my home, in Alberta) to Melbourne, Australia. The ticket agent said the ticket was a hundred times that amount, but really, are $34.08 and $3408.48 much different? I mean sure, maybe $34.08 doesn't go as far, but the ticket agent was obviously being an insensitive fucking twit for suggesting that it was an 'insulting pittance.'

I am now going to do my part to help the fiascos in Afghanistan and Iraq by killing as many enemy combatants as possible:

"Enemy, your beliefs are fucking stupid. Moron."
"Enemy, your beliefs are fucking stupid. Moron."
"Enemy, your beliefs are fucking stupid. Moron."

Well, that's three down. I'll just sit back and wait for Ron in Houston to send me my medal before I jump back in the fray with my deadly insensitive bile.

Posted by: Ron Sullivan | July 11, 2008 6:23 PM

I want to make it clear that I am not, nor have I ever been, in Houston. Except maybe for an hour in the airport once. I vaguely recall it as a flat, damp place, which would match that other Ron's affect so far.

This is pretty hilarious. Cthulu help us--what if that Floridian kid had dipped his wafer in chocolate??

Posted by: Helioprogenus | July 11, 2008 6:25 PM

Wow, all of this because some idiots tried to wrestle a "fucking cracker" from some guy who did't want to chew it at the moment. Holy fucking shit, how insane is this? Beyond the fact that it's just a piece of unleavened bread, it is unbelievable that so much can be made of such an insignificant stupid little thing. So PZ mocks these fuckers, some take it too seriously, and now, we have a blogwar over a dry tasteless piece of bread. This is why we laugh and mock at religion. And for those who disagree with PZ on his conduct, great for you to be so concerned, but why does it even matter? He's just mocking some bullshit belief that some idiots hold to their dying illogical breaths. Mock all you want, and if you have problems, you're free to post them, but don't think it makes it less humorous for us to view it from a rational perspective.

Posted by: JoJo | July 11, 2008 6:26 PM

In case anyone's interested, I got the 4% priestly pedophile number from The Nature and Scope of the Problem of Sexual Abuse of Minors by Priests and Deacons, by Karen Terry et al. (2004). See section 2.2, Summary Results: Prevalence of Sexual Abuse of Youths Under 18 by Catholic Priests and Deacons, Page 25, next to last paragraph.

This report was commissioned by the Conference of Catholic Bishops. I specifically used this as a source so that any Catholics who might whine about it could not object to it, since their own bishops bought into the report.

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 6:27 PM

Reginald

No. No. A thousand times no. What PZ did was the functional equivalent of encouraging people to trespass on someone's sacred place and turn over their religious icons.

We would never consider engaging in such an act of physical vandalism. However, what he did was not much different.

I understand that a lot of atheists don't understand this and frankly a lot seem so insensitive that they don't care.

People often have irrational beliefs. You should still treat them with respect.

Posted by: MikeM | July 11, 2008 6:29 PM

#363

I just find this sentiment so insincere at this point.

Ron, can you show us that this was a hate crime??

My position: It was irreverent. I wouldn't have done it. I see no reason to. However, it harmed no one.

When framing your response, just remember that PZ has received death threats over this. Which of us has done the same? Can you show me the comment(s) where one of us has threatened any member of the CL? Who was harmed when the student didn't eat the cracker?

Posted by: BMurray | July 11, 2008 6:30 PM

As there is no objective test to determine whether or not any given communion wafer has been blessed and therefore no way to know whether or not one is in fact the body of Christ, I submit that it is completely unnecessary to have them blessed in order to "defile" them -- your claim that they have been blessed will be sufficient. If it's not then they risk a false negative by possibly ignoring a real cookie hostage, and that won't do. Every cookie in every crate is just as good as the real thing for defilement purposes, provided you are prepared to lie.

Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 11, 2008 6:32 PM

"PZ Myers has decided to take on all Catholics, by calling for atheists to steal communion wafers from communion services..."

The start of Ames Grawert's latest blog post. WRONG!

Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 11, 2008 6:33 PM

Neural Transmissions:

I'd like to know how much traffic has increased to Pharyngula since this whole fiasco started.

Eyeballing the Sitemeter stats, I'd say about 50,000 page views per day.

Posted by: gdlchmst | July 11, 2008 6:34 PM

People often have irrational beliefs. You should still treat them with respect.

You are kidding right? Since when did irrational beliefs or people with irrational beliefs warrant my automatic respect? You may hand out your respect like flyers, but my respect has to be earned.

Posted by: Hessenroots | July 11, 2008 6:38 PM

@ 390

That's not surprising at all. Give it a few days to really snowball out of control and we'll have headlines like "PZ Myers calls on atheists to firebomb churches" or some such bullshit.

That or it'll just die and once the trolls have left we'll get some occasional lulz out of the whole thing.

I see a Crackergate anniversary party in our future!

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 6:40 PM

Ron Sullivan

Yep, flat and damp that describes Houston to a tee. However, I'm not trying to rain on anyone's parade. I just happen to feel that PZ said some highly inflammatory things and his record at least on this blog is not clear.

When the whole mess gained critical mass, he did an interview and clarified his comments. I'm just saying that he needs to do the same here. He needs to make clear to his "ilk" that he's not advocating that they actively go into Catholic churches to attempt to obtain consecrated communion wafers.

I know that's not what he's advocating, but yes, people are stupid enough to attempt to do that. If something like that were to happen it would be a major black eye to atheists.

I think it would also show graciousness to throw a few "crackers" to the Catholics. If he really wants to show how insane they are, then a little graciousness will make them look like even bigger hypocrites.

Posted by: Annick | July 11, 2008 6:41 PM

So.... eating crackers is considered violence now ?

Posted by: Amy | July 11, 2008 6:45 PM

I, a devout Catholic, will pray for all of your souls. Because I love you. Every sad, angry, wounded, abused, confused, anti-conservative, anti-Catholic one of you. You do make me angry and you ALMOST make me want to do or say something sinful...because I am human and I have weaknesses just like the rest of you. But, I also have a couple of things I like to call class and self control. So I will simply state my opinion and leave it at that (because it is my consitutional right to do so though I'm sure you will delete this comment because it is contradictory to PZ's hateful anti-Christian/anti-Catholic beliefs).

The Holy Eucharist is the body of Christ. If you don't believe it, that is fine. Then please do not partake or desecrate it. Leave it alone. You all preach respect and all of your liberal tolerance propoganda. Yet you are hypocrites in your actions. You are not tolerant with your viscious remarks and hateful words. Yes, there are hypocrites in every sect of society including the Catholic Church. DEAL WITH IT. We are all human and we all deserve respect. I do not agree with death threats to anyone. Nor does any true Catholic. I'm guessing no true, devout Muslim would agree with any extremist terrorist either. Same concept. Do not condemn all for the actions of a few extremists. That's my piece.

You know, you all make me sad. A lot of these heinous comments make me not want to bring children into this SAD world. But, don't get your hopes up. That wish of yours will not come true. I'm going to have a lovely LARGE devout Catholic family. (Insert your ignorant anti-Catholic joke here if you wish.) And, my large Catholic family and I will continue to pray for you. All of you. We will ask God to show mercy to you all (and myself as I am human and thus a sinner) as you face death's door when the time comes.

I don't need to send letters or make profane statements or insult anyone. Because I am content. I know the Truth. And you do too...inside. You know you do. You were born with it inside of you. You can spend your whole life and expend all of your energy fighting it. But, you will see...in the end, the glory of God always prevails. Catholics are by no means perfect. But we know the Truth. God bless each and every one of you.

Posted by: pcarini | July 11, 2008 6:49 PM

BMurray @ #388:

You're absolutely right, of course, if PZ felt so inclined he could order 500 of the things online, claim that 500 people sent him hosts, and then hold 500 christs hostage. I was mostly joking when I said that a priest has to bless them to make them capable of offending Catholics.

One thing I've learned from Pharyngula: I think I'm far more funny than everybody else seems to think I am...

Posted by: Ames | July 11, 2008 6:52 PM

@ Amy, 402, chill. While PZ might be taking this a little far, and getting bad PR for teh atheists, it's not a sin to laugh.

Posted by: True Bob | July 11, 2008 6:54 PM

Sheesh Ron in Houston, is there no end to your concern?

IIRC, PZ blogged about this very subject - different approaches to engaging the Reality Deluded (TM). He definitely acknowledged the mild-mannered, pleasant discussion model and supported those who use it (in certain contexts), but also pointed out that that routine didn't work for blacks nor gays or any other suppressed minority, and that HIS approach would be more vociferous. Again IIRC, he thought multiple approaches would be the best approach (I'm thinking Bruce Lee and the style of no style. If you prefer, think of international negotiations - there's talk around a table, but there's also simultaneous saber-rattling and economic extortion on the side, sometimes even war).

Does that make no sense to you? Are you in the god-closet? If you don't like his approach, take your own. You have expressed your disagreement with PZ's style numerous times now. Do you think you've really affected the regulars here? I think most of the regulars are here because they share that sentiment, and are unlikely to be swayed otherwise, or have already also expressed their feelings.

Got anything new?

Posted by: Neural Transmissions | July 11, 2008 6:56 PM

Blake Stacey @ 392

Thanks. Yeah, from the looks of it, the average historical page views is 72,000 per day while the page views over the last day is 118,000, an increase of 63%.

Posted by: Neural Transmission | July 11, 2008 6:57 PM

Wait, no, I messed that up. Average historical number of visits per day is 50,000. The number of visits in the last 24 hrs is 94,000, an increase of 88%!

Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 11, 2008 7:01 PM

I, a devout Catholic, will pray for all of your souls.

That's OK; I'm sure someone will volunteer to think on your behalf.

Every sad, angry, wounded, abused, confused, anti-conservative, anti-Catholic one of you.

I can't speak for anybody else, but I personally was never abused, and I'm not particularly sad or angry (how could I be — I've got blueberry bread!). Given that "conservative" is these days a byword for "authoritarian", "bigoted" and "downright medieval", then yes, I'll have to plead guilty on that charge. Also, I've met a great many reasonable Catholics who were sincerely nice folks, so while I think almost every pronouncement that comes out of the Church's hierarchy is completely bonkers, I'm not sure anti-Catholic is the right word for me. Anti-clerical, perhaps.

You do make me angry and you ALMOST make me want to do or say something sinful...because I am human and I have weaknesses just like the rest of you. But, I also have a couple of things I like to call class and self control.

Your condescension is unbecoming.

I do not agree with death threats to anyone. Nor does any true Catholic. I'm guessing no true, devout Muslim would agree with any extremist terrorist either.

The world's cup runs over with factions, each claiming to possess ultimate truth and to know the mind of the Creator. On secular, empirical, rational grounds, they've all been equally wrong. Those of us on the outside have no way of seeing which of the myriad mutually inconsistent creeds have a pipeline to truth. We have no way to know what makes a "true Catholic", a "true Lutheran" or a "true Muslim". Millions of people say they are these things, but millions of other people claim the same thing while disagreeing vocally with the other "true believers".

I don't need to send letters or make profane statements or insult anyone. Because I am content. I know the Truth. And you do too...inside. You know you do. You were born with it inside of you.

That condescension I mentioned? Yeah, it's verging on arrogance right about now.

If the visitors to this site are a fair sampling, then "true Catholics" are either foaming with violent hatred or oozing smug self-satisfaction. Way to advertise your product, people.

Posted by: Hessenroots | July 11, 2008 7:02 PM

Ron in Houston

I'll make no comment on Houston beyond saying the people were nice and the food was f*cking delicious.

I can see your standpoint on the issue and even, maybe slightly a little, agree with you...kinda. PZ wasn't saying "steal me some crackers, minions!" but it is easy enough for the wrong people to spin it that way. Putting in a quick note saying "hai guys, it was sarcastic, lighten up" would suffice to cover his anatomy from any possible shenanigans.

If someone decides to nick some magic morsels from a church, in the name of godlessness, I have no problem with that. It's their choice. I'm not going to do it but if person X decides to, no harm done.

Do I think it's wrong? No. Do I think it's immoral? No. Do I think it would be a waste of time to sit through that just to get a few bland crackers? Hell yes! There's got to be a million better things to do with ones time.

If people want to generalize the actions of one into the actions of an entire group so be it, they have the right to be so ignorant. It's not unlike saying, in jest "all muslims are terrorists" or "all priests are child molesters".

People should just get over themselves and play nice.

Posted by: Ubi Dubium | July 11, 2008 7:02 PM

I would hope this Amy is a satire. If not - Amy - there are many former Catholics posting here. They know whereof they speak. And they are laughing right along with the rest of us, if not harder.

Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 11, 2008 7:03 PM

Ever heard of a little thing called the Catechism?

Ever heard of a little thing called the Filioque? (Honest: it's really little.)

Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 11, 2008 7:04 PM

The Holy Eucharist is the body of Christ. If you don't believe it, that is fine. Then please do not partake or desecrate it. Leave it alone. You all preach respect and all of your liberal tolerance propaganda.

Sure Amy. Hindus hold that cows are sacred. You don't have to believe it, but I expect you to abstain from eating beef. And Jews and Muslims hold that pigs are unclean. I don't expect you to believe it, but I expect you to abstain from eating pork. Jains believe it is wrong to kill any living thing, even an insect. If you don't believe it, that is fine. But I expect you to abstain from killing insects or any other living thing. Are you starting to get the picture?

Posted by: Tyson Koska | July 11, 2008 7:05 PM

Amy, as soon as I began to read your words I began to feel a presence within me... and a light, it shown from somewhere else... I think I found God in your post. Yes! it was in me all along! Thank you Amy!!!!!!!!

Posted by: Ubi Dubium | July 11, 2008 7:07 PM

Ilk!??. I guess that was a step above "minions". Perhaps this blog is actually an "Ilk Lodge"? (Or maybe a "Squid Squad"?)

I'm holding out for "henchman".

Posted by: Rey Fox | July 11, 2008 7:08 PM

"I would hope this Amy is a satire."

No no no. People really do think like that. Lots of them. Is it that hard to believe?

"Putting in a quick note saying "hai guys, it was sarcastic, lighten up" would suffice to cover his anatomy from any possible shenanigans."

Frankly, I think PZ will just continue to play coy and drive everybody nuts. With the lunacy this incident has reaped thus far, is any actual "desecration" even necessary?

Posted by: pcarini | July 11, 2008 7:10 PM

Amy @ #419

If you don't think there is a God...go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what goes through your mind.

Wow.. and WE have the "vicious remarks"? How about you jump out of an airplane without a parachute. If a horde of angels saves you, I'll convert.

Posted by: JD | July 11, 2008 7:12 PM

People often have irrational beliefs. You should still treat them with respect.

Respect? Not a chance. But, they do need to be treated with caution as they've shown throughout history they'll readily kill those who threaten the cult their fairy tales inspire and the political power it brings.

#15,

It's projection. They'd burn us all at the stake if they could so they assume PZ, and anyone with a functioning brain, would do the same.

I've no doubt that a substantial portion of the death cultists would like to burn us non-believers, but it's not projection that's behind these absurd assertions and fear mongering. These Christian leaders know full well what they're doing. By creating a false fear of attack they want to inspire their flock to silence the critics and they really don't care how or by what means that objective is achieved.

Posted by: Rey Fox | July 11, 2008 7:14 PM

"go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what goes through your mind."

Wait, I've heard this joke before...the answer is "my ass"! Ha!

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 7:15 PM

Hessenroots

I think you understand. All I want is for PZ instead of continuing to tweak that idiot Bill Donahue to come out with a post that says, "for gosh sakes, it's satire you idiots."

It's pretty clear to me that they think he's serious. When I first read it I wasn't really certain.

I'm also not so certain that some person wouldn't take PZ seriously and attempt such a boneheaded stunt.

Posted by: Jack Rawlinson | July 11, 2008 7:17 PM

PZ, there is nothing a Christian likes more than being given an opportunity to play martyr. They get off on it almost as much as a Catholic priest gets off on being in close proximity to a comely altar boy. Sadly, this was predictable. They'll be shrieking like horrified little girls about this for quite a while, I'm afraid. Since we atheists don't go quite as far in persecuting Catholics as, say, Henry VIII did, they have to make the most of what they can get. Their weak, contemptible little souls need it.

Posted by: Nobody | July 11, 2008 7:18 PM

I think it's vitally important that someone buy these (holy table breaking link batman):

http://cgi.ebay.com/Communion-Bread-Wafers-Plain-Round-Box-of-1000_W0QQitemZ150143033747QQihZ005QQcategoryZ1447QQrdZ1QQssPageNameZWD1VQQcmdZViewItemQQ_trksidZp1638Q2em118Q2el1247

And have them shipped to PZ. A thousand communion wafers- come on that's way better than just one. And these aren't even soggy yet! And before you go saying that they need to be consecrated, it appears that the official church position is that the cracker is ALWAYS Jesus, even before it gets the magic words recited over it. I don't have an ebay account, but seriously it's only $15. For a thousand. If someone does this, Bill Donahue's head might explode. Apologies if this has already been posted too- the find function isn't turning up any other mention of ebay though.

Posted by: pcarini | July 11, 2008 7:19 PM

Blake Stacey @#425, talking about Amy:

Arrogance. Condescension. Smug self-satisfaction. Please, stop it. You win no friends that way.

Maybe she's not here to make friends. (apologies in advance)

Posted by: Lago | July 11, 2008 7:21 PM

Mr. Donohue's freedom of speech seems to be based on removing others right's to the same. He simply demands the right to impinge on the rights of others.

Posted by: Hessenroots | July 11, 2008 7:25 PM

Ron in Houston

We're more or less on the same page in regard to that.

Even if they knew the post was satire people would do it anyway.

It'll happen and I bet one (near useless) U.S. dollar that someone involved tries to blame PZ for it. Then the media gets it, puts it on spin cycle until nice and blown wayyy out of proportion.

Guess I'll draft up a few more notes of support for ol' PZ. He shouldn't need it but when the hounds come looking for an easy meal any little bit helps.

Posted by: Patricia | July 11, 2008 7:28 PM

#204 - JoJo - you are only a smidge off laddie (?) with your Ilk definition. From 'The Clan Almanac' by Charles Maclean, 1990 - there are sixteen clan chiefs that carry the title 'of that Ilk'. So PZ would be PZ Myers of that Ilk. Chief of clan Pharyngula, I would guess. Myers is not a surname listed in the Almanac. That makes us Ilk, not ilk.
#305 - Nick you smarty pants, nice detective work. ;)
#317 - Peter Mc - you owe me some freshly fruited cold sangria!
#393 - *gasp* - THAT is a very naughty word!
Next thing you know PZ will be accused of running a bawdy house for all the strumpet & slut remarks posted around here. You really stirred them up PZ. Way to go! :)

Posted by: gdlchmst | July 11, 2008 7:29 PM

@Ron #436

You still don't get it. While PZ might be too nonconfrontational to actually follow through, there is absolutely nothing wrong with taking a stand against a plutocratic religious institution by not playing their silly ritual games.

Posted by: Am I me? | July 11, 2008 7:36 PM

"It is not a sin to laugh. It is a sin to blaspheme our God and defame a Holy religion."

Even though I know this is a troll, I just wanna make this distinction clear (as did Monty Python when Life of Brian was made). What's going on here is heresy. That is, insulting and belittling the church, not the faith.

Blasphemy is insulting God. While a lot of folk (myself included) *also* insult and belittle your "God", the issue with the crackers falls under heresy not blasphemy in my opinion, as do the majority of comments here.

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 7:38 PM

gdlchmst

I'm all for taking stands against plutocratic religions. What PZ did was take it one step further. He (perhaps tongue in cheek) advocated going into their sacred places and causing chaos.

The problem is the "tongue in cheek" part is not quite so clear. I'm just asking him to make the record clear that it was satire.

Posted by: Danio | July 11, 2008 7:41 PM

Patricia wrote:

#393 - *gasp* - THAT is a very naughty word!

Indeed. But after being pelted with a sample of the crushingly inane, seemingly endless torrent of entitlement-drenched missives PZ has received in the past 48 hours, isn't 'bukkake' pretty much the perfect descriptive term?

Posted by: Patrick | July 11, 2008 7:42 PM

This has been interesting so far, but it's now crossed the line into total hilarity.

Posted by: Hessenroots | July 11, 2008 7:46 PM

@ 450

I can't speak for Ron but I defend the notion of PZ making such a post not out of placation or trying to make nice. Simply bowing down because someone's feelings got hurt isn't the way to go at all.

I'm thinking about the media. Should they decide to latch on and use it to sell some papers they'll make it out however they need to for the almighty dollar. Usually that doesn't involve making religion look like the bad guy. At least having the words in print, no matter how short, concise or blunt would provide a bit of coverage from the headhunting doomsayers of Knight-Ridder and the likes.

I firmly stand on the idea of respecting ones right to a belief but not having to respect that belief. I like pork, beef, crackers, working on Sunday, having premarital sex (promiscuously no less!) and all other such wonderful things life has to offer.

All in all I think people can do whatever they want. If they start pissing folks off or getting pushy about it they shouldn't be surprised when there's a backlash.

Irrational response over nibbly bits included.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 11, 2008 7:49 PM

The funniest thing is how these right-wing fuckwits (yes, I know that's redundant) are pulling out the, "Why don't you do this to Muslim icons" shit, showing that they've never visited the site (liars or stupid?), and that they're typical rightwing fucktards obsessed with their own grievances ("christians are so oppressed" blah blah blah)..

...and they complain about other people being cowards while completely shitting their pants because of some kind of Muslim horde going to overrun America.

Delusional stupidity doesn't even begin to cover these morons.

Posted by: idahogie | July 11, 2008 7:50 PM

Christ, Ron from Houston, give it up. You've made your point 15 times already. Very few people - maybe 1 or 2 - agree with you.

You're a tenacious concern troll, aren't you.

Posted by: Moggie | July 11, 2008 7:53 PM

Fear and paranoia are pretty much all the GOP has to run on. They're probably delighted with this series of events.

Posted by: Logicel | July 11, 2008 7:53 PM

Amy types bored me when growing up as a child of a Catholic parent; Amy types bore me when I find myself unwittingly in their company. Happily, Amy types will no longer have the opportunity to bore me to the vomiting stage after my death as I will no longer exist and will at last be spared of their incessant, pathetic, bleating nonsense.

Religites are zombies, stalking thinking people everywhere, with their idiotic and feigned kindness of wanting you to respect, know their terrifying, ugly beliefs. Apparently they can't tell bad from good, and think you are suffering from the same malady.

Posted by: bunnycatch3r | July 11, 2008 7:55 PM

Oh, I forgot to add a few other important items.
1)The overwhelming response to the cracker thread reminds me of Harry Potter book 7.
2)Maybe we should start a photo/video blog dedicated soley to cracker desecration. I don't know what service it would provide but it sure seems like there would be plenty of interest.
Ok, I'm through.

Posted by: John Morris | July 11, 2008 7:58 PM

wow i can't believe this is happening - you're sweet - i support you babe - just keep on----------------------------------------------

Posted by: John Morris | July 11, 2008 7:59 PM

wow i can't believe this is happening - you're sweet - i support you babe - just keep on----------------------------------------------

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 11, 2008 8:00 PM

I, a devout Catholic, will pray for all of your souls. Because I love you. ...

blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah blah

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 11, 2008 8:02 PM

Posted by: Amy | July 11, 2008 6:53 PM

Stop playing with your mind until you've developed the appropriate skills to use it. Put it away now; you're obviously not using it.

Posted by: octopod | July 11, 2008 8:06 PM

I particularly like the "You wouldn't desecrate the KORAN!", when (IIRC) when you did suggest doing so, everyone threw fifteen kinds of shit fits...

Posted by: Moses | July 11, 2008 8:12 PM

In summary:

1) Webster Cook shouldn't have taken the host without asking.

These things happen all the time and nobody gets their panties in a wad. So, in the grand scheme of things it was a big fat NOTHING.

Right until some fool over-reacted and assaulted him to get the wafer back.

2) The diocese has a right to be upset and take action over the theft.

Once again, this is not so uncommon that anybody on the Church side needs to have a freak-out. This happens every now and then at most large Catholic churches and nobody freaks out.

Just as nobody checks to see if a heathen is taking communion. There are no body cavity searches to make sure nobody is "stealing" it.

And, BTW, when they GIVE you the cracker, it's your cracker. You're not "stealing" it. Calling it theft is, at best, the worst sort of concern trolling and muddled thinking available.

3) Extreme reactions like death threats against Cook are completely unacceptable. 4) PZ has a right to mock the whole situation. 5) People have a right to be offended by PZ's comments and say so. 6) Donohue is blowing the whole thing out of proportion.

Posted by: James F | July 11, 2008 3:32 PM

Glad to see you're not going completely concern troll. Except to some fringe-lunatic catholics, this wasn't a big deal. Those that I know, all of whom run to the moderate-to-liberal bent cluck their tounges and shake their heads at the church. Not the kid.

Some even start on stories about sneaking out the communion wine and getting drunk on the blood of Jesus. Getting in trouble. All that jazz.

Seriously, except for the professionally offended, it's a big, fat nothing.

Posted by: karen marie | July 11, 2008 8:15 PM

CL sez: "Given the vitriol we have experienced for simply exercising our First Amendment right to freedom of speech, we support Foley's request [for more security]."

has bill donahue and the catholic league read ANY of this thread?

the only vitriol i've seen, after reading a couple thousand comments, has been from those who think it perfectly reasonable to threaten to murder someone because someone else has either maliciously or recklessly told them that the first someone STOLE a eucharist and was HOLDING IT RANSOM as a protest about use of student fee funds.

and none of their story is true. he didn't steal it, he was assaulted, in church, by a busybody who had no right to touch him, much less grab his wrist and attempt to pry his fingers open. having had enough catholic charity, mr. cook then left the building and immediately filed a complaint about the assaultive behavior, triggering "the only reasonable" response church officials could come up with: to file a complaint against mr. cook for allegedly "disrupting" the church service and attempt to have him expelled from school.

church officials then proceeded to compound an already bad situation by providing inaccurate and deceitful information to other people who, enraged at this heinous desecration, began running around variously passing on increasingly inaccurate and inflammatory versions of the story or communicating death threats to mr. cook.

but no, leave it to bill donahue and the catholic league to up the ante by snowballing the wildly inaccurate story and then throwing a hissy fit after reading professor myers' post of july 8 based on the july 7 story "student who took religious icon getting death threats" over at "myfox orlando." the result of said hissy fit and further promolugation of the serial untruths which were piling up (and continue to) professor myers has received death threats.

the comment thread is littered with vitriolic comments by self-identifying christians ranging from outrage at a desecration which it turns out didn't actually happen to threats of murder and mayhem against atheists and/or non-catholics/non-christians.

it truly boggles the mind.

all this because mr. cook had the temerity to wait to swallow his wafer till his friend (who showed more respect for the catholic church than did sally quinn by not intruding himself at the communion rail where, as a non-catholic, he had no right) had an opportunity to see this transformative bit of crumb. for that crime, mr. cook was assaulted, IN A CHURCH.

let that sink in.

he was assaulted in a church. and now he is being viciously maligned by the catholic church, bill donahue and the catholic league [are we sure this isn't a band?] and a large number of people who make claims about gun ownership and ability and willingness to use a gun against "desecreters."

wow.

and the GOP needs armed protection from myers and his merry band of atheists?

i'm reeling from the sheer magnitude of the asshattery, az thay sa en thu intertubz.

this thread has been very educational. i have learned all kinds of things and have inserted comments throughout here as some of them came up. but at this moment the lesson i am recognizing is that, yes, virginia, some of them are in fact MUCH crazier than you could possibly imagine, although i have never personally doubted the extent of the danger the asshats pose to the health and safety of those they choose as their targets.

mr. cook received death threats from people on the basis of willful and malicious lies told by people attempting to cover their asses and hide their seriously inappropriate, and criminal, behavior. funny that, i had always heard that churches were considered sanctuaries where violence dare not enter. oh, that's right, i almost forgot about the child-raping priests. never mind.

and pz myers' crime? he had the audacity to publicly express outrage that a fellow human being should be threatened over claimed but untrue allegations of mistreatment of a cracker, that a group of people who claim to operate under a superior moral code should be publicly declaring this act that didn't actually happen not just a hate crime but "worse than a hate crime."

sure, there are silly people who don't quite have a grasp of satire who may believe pz myers was seriously advocating invading catholic churches to "steal" communion wafers, but how can anyone, with a straight face, compare that with what bill donahue and the catholic league and the officials of the catholic church in question have done here, the former as an attention-seeking stunt, the latter to distract attention from unjustified assaultive behavior against a communicant INSIDE THE CHURCH, DURING A CHURCH SERVICE.

so can we get some clarification from the GOP as to their claim that "additional security" is going to be required at the convention? did i miss something? is the GOP a catholic organization? did a stray death threat jump out, tap a GOP party member on the shoulder and promise to come back for the convention?

it seems like an enormous ruckus to cover up the fact that mr. cook was physically assaulted IN A CHURCH by "a church leader." but, hey, i was always taught to admit when i had done something wrong. apparently it's different for catholics.

i hope my narrative has been helpful as i think there are a lot of commenters here who are not conversant with the actual facts, as opposed to the various fictional versions which people have heard and have been arguing from.

Posted by: Dan | July 11, 2008 8:20 PM

Amy wrote: "If you don't think there is a God...go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what goes through your mind."

I can answer that. HOLY SHIIITTT!!! I hope I did not blaspheme calling shit holy. My bad.

Posted by: Moses | July 11, 2008 8:22 PM

However, as an atheist, I'm beginning to frankly find you an embarrassment.

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 4:18 PM

Wow, it took all that time? I found you to be an embarrassment in just one line of just one post.

Posted by: Ichthyic | July 11, 2008 8:25 PM

"If you don't think there is a God...go jump out of an airplane without a parachute and see what [the last thing is that] goes through your mind."

actually, that's a rather classic joke.

the answer is:

your ass.

Posted by: Moses | July 11, 2008 8:44 PM

Googling "C.J. Simones" is enlightening.

Posted by: Kristine | July 11, 2008 4:44 PM

He's another Larry Farfarman! Larry is my hero. When ever I need to know something, I ask Larry.

The opposite is nearly always true.

Posted by: Kel | July 11, 2008 8:51 PM

Can this possibly get more insane?

Posted by: Longtime Lurker | July 11, 2008 9:02 PM

Re: DrB@148

The last two words are just a hat tip. The real concern is all of the Minnesota Lutherans. We all know how well it worked out last time Catholics and Lutherans mixed it up.

Maybe the governor of Minnesota can issue something like the Concordat of Worms for the state. Concordat of Duluth?

Posted by: Moses | July 11, 2008 9:06 PM

Good grief; is it really being claimed (with, I assume, some supporting documentation?) that around 1 in 25 of these purportedly caring, saintly, devout, (etc etc) men is a pedophile? That really would be a nasty thought. Just how many is this claimed to add up to? Obviously this mythical god of theirs really did mean "suffer the little children".

Posted by: tim rowledge | July 11, 2008 6:00 PM

Sadly, yes:

The John Jay Report, [3] commissioned by the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops, found accusations against 4392 priests in the USA, equalling about 4% of of all U.S. priests between 1950 and 2002.

Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 11, 2008 9:07 PM

I'm so glad that PZ's blog is full of highly evolved rational humanists who believe in things like morality and rationality above things like ignorant superstition.

Attack me all you want. Call me names and say what you will. However, you fail to realize that you are showing yourself to be the same intolerant, self-righteous bigots that you're attacking in your bile.

Pot meet kettle. Or to borrow the words of the highly egoic and esteemed PZ Myers - "demented [theistic] fuckwits" - meet your fucking highly evolved and rational atheist fuckwits.

All I can say is that a lot of people on this blog are great arguments for the need for natural selection. PZ included.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 11, 2008 9:10 PM

OH NOES! TEH CUNSERN TROLL IS TEH FUSSY!

Posted by: idahogie | July 11, 2008 9:16 PM

That's a fine farewell message, Ron in Houston. Have a nice life.

Posted by: Moses | July 11, 2008 9:26 PM

I , a devout Catholic, will pray for all of your souls. Because I love you. Every sad, angry, wounded, abused, confused, anti-conservative, anti-Catholic one of you.

Thanks for nothing Amy. But if you're going to do any praying, pray for the virgin asses that are going to be raped by a pedophile priest given succour by the Catholic Church, mkay?

It won't do a damn bit of good. But you'll be able think you did something constructive.

Posted by: Helioprogenus | July 11, 2008 9:29 PM

Amy, take your self-righteousness to other similarly self righteous religious whack jobs. Every idiot with an unsubstantiated belief thinks that they have the answer in their hearts, when in truth, you're all equally as wrong. Look, it's fine that you waste your time coming here telling us how you're going to populate the earth with your ignorance, but don't expect us to fall over and convert to your idiotic belief system when nothing you say makes any logical sense. OK, you can string words together into sentences, congratulations, but try to extend that into reasoning and empirical thinking.

Amy, I hate to tell you this, but in case you haven't noticed, you and your minions revere a 2000 year old dead jew whose flesh and blood you eat and drink. Think about this and then try to tell us again what makes us wrong in thinking you're totally and absolultely insane.

Posted by: Kristine | July 11, 2008 9:31 PM

Hey, I just remembered this - I once was given two communion wafers because people were supposed to dunk them into the wine first, and I didn't - I just munched it and then looked around for those lil' glasses of Mogen David that they used to use. So they gave me another one to dunk.

That's what happens when an athey takes communion for the sake of other people in the room (because I was trying not to, ahem, embarrass alleged athies like Ron in Houston).

I used to hear insults against transubstantiation all the time from other Christians who believed only in transubstitution.

Ron in Houston, you just insulted those Christians! For shame! (Maybe you should just draw your curtains and go to bed. I hope you haven't killed any insects in your life - an insult to Buddhists and Jains, you know.)

Posted by: chuko | July 11, 2008 9:37 PM

@Kobra - the Catholic church does actively protect and defend child molesters in their ranks. So "global paedophile ring" is not so bad a description.

@Ron - I'm inclined to think of all this "desecration" stuff as pretty childish, but did you notice the reaction? Death threats, vilification of our community? As satire, it works. My opinion is that it would be juvenile if there was no point (lots of groups of silly rituals, why interfere with them?), but the Catholic League has clearly demonstrated that there is: to demonstrate that they don't make a distinction between harming a cracker and violence against actual people.

Posted by: Pam Ronald | July 11, 2008 9:52 PM

we need you PZ. dont let catholics or republicans or university presidents or anyone else stop the blogs. And please ask your president to send police protection to your house. no kidding.

Posted by: Janine ID | July 11, 2008 10:00 PM

I'm going to have a lovely LARGE devout Catholic family.

Posted by: Amy

Amy, are you able to predict the future? True, you may give birth to many children. You may try to raise them to believe as you do. But that does not mean that all of your future children will follow you.

If you know what these future people will be, you are blessed with an ability that the rest of us lack. Just where did you acquire this ability? I doubt it is from your god.

Now what is the traditional way for the church to handle women who have ungodly talents?

Posted by: Bubba Sixpack | July 11, 2008 10:05 PM

Damn! I was ready to kidnap another Catholic wafer, and was planning to hold it hostage and threaten to step on it at the Republican National Convention in the Twin Cities, unless I obtained my global domination demands. They must have found out somehow.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 11, 2008 10:10 PM

I sooooooooo wish there were Sisters of Perpetual Indulgence in the Twin Cities. Wouldn't the Larry Craig airport stall be a great space for communion performance art?!?!

Posted by: Trance Gemini | July 11, 2008 10:13 PM

This has got to be the funniest thing I've read in a while.

What's the extra security for? In case the Catholics decide to bring their Eucharist crackers along? Can't have those kidnapped can we.

What's sick is that some think that crackers are more important than humans and express that through death threats!

Just insane!

Posted by: Ichthyic | July 11, 2008 10:19 PM

Just insane!

*bing*

It is a sin to blaspheme our God and defame a Holy religion

spoken like a good little Islamic extremist.

oh wait, you say you're Catholic?

so hard to tell the difference between one idiotic extremist and another.

Posted by: decrepitoldfool | July 11, 2008 10:41 PM

This is not really so mysterious; it's projection, plain and simple. Until recently, their tradition was to respond to offense with violence but this pluralistic society made them stop. Since they'd like to do something nasty they can't imagine only wanting to ridicule and satirize.

To any Catholics reading; violence is your shtick, and oppression too. And don't say it isn't anymore: your church has on its hands the blood of millions of AIDS victims, the hopeless social isolation of gays, the enslavement of women giving birth again and again until their bodies give out and their children die of starvation, the dark hole of poverty in remote villages while your holy man lives in a palatial art gallery. Will you fix all that stuff if we promise to always respect your cracker?

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 11, 2008 10:58 PM

Don't you people ever take a break for important things?

Like drinking?

:)

Posted by: Quiet Desperation | July 11, 2008 11:22 PM

"King Kong Theory of Creation"

I am *so* stealing that. :-)

Posted by: waldteufel | July 11, 2008 11:25 PM

Our batshit crazy friend Bill is a fervent advocate of free speech, as long as you agree with him. Otherwise, he'd cheerfully, I'm sure, set a pack of Jesuit priests loose to track you down and play inquisition with you. I'll bet Bill sleeps with a life-like doll of Cardinal Torquemada . . . . .

Posted by: IBY | July 12, 2008 12:03 AM

Answering PZ's question, yes, this can get more insane. I know it is unbelievable, but... believe it.

Posted by: Ichthyic | July 12, 2008 12:09 AM

Don't you people ever take a break for important things?

Like drinking?

excellent point.

cheers

Posted by: platypus | July 12, 2008 12:27 AM

Wow, what a firestorm of comments from these threads! If there is one thing I learned from the responses on these blogs, its that I will make a greater effort to have respect another's beliefs, no matter how ridiculous they may seem to me.

It is commendable for PZ to protest the actions of the UCF and Catholic Church against WC. However, what PZ proposes goes beyond merely protesting, it is an outright declaration of war, and the Catholic League is happy to oblige. I'm not sure what good will be accomplished here. These are not the actions of reason. My recommendation is, don't do it, it's a bad idea. You're an intelligent individual, and supposedly tolerant and rational - surely you can think of more positive ways of protesting. A famous Jedi once said "Don't give in to hate, that path leads to the dark side."

The request need for added security to protect Catholics at the Republican Convention is laughable, I'd be far more concerned for PZ. One more bit of advice for PZ...keep your distance from the Republican Convention.

Posted by: Capital Dan | July 12, 2008 1:02 AM

WTF?!?

You really did a number on these good and godly, death-threat-spewing folks, PZ. I wonder if Bill Donohue will sleep with the lights on and an altar boy in his lap to help him make it through this torturous night.

I mean, there's crazy, and then there's Catholic Crayzeeee!

Posted by: paradoctor | July 12, 2008 3:27 AM

How to desecrate a wafer, while showing complete respect:

First, obtain two communion wafers, one consecrated, the other one not.

Switch them around a few times, so you can't tell which one is which.

Then invite Mr. Donohue, and perhaps a priest, over to determine which one is which.

They won't be able to. There's no difference between the two, and this experiment proves it.

And there you are; desecration complete. You could even give both wafers, untouched, to Mr. Donohue; for your spiritual point will be proven.

Posted by: Magpie | July 12, 2008 4:00 AM

I for one stand ready to devour flesh at your command, PZ! Christians have got to be low in carbs. Did you ever see a fat circus lion?

For the swwwarrrrm.

Posted by: decrepitoldfool | July 12, 2008 7:50 AM

A commenter named Thursday at Vive Christus Rex, who claims to have witnessed the incident says:

Dr. Cook, take it for what it was worth, but I was an eyewitness to the incident (I sat in the same row as your son and saw this happen.) your son's claims of violence are stretched much farther than they need be. You should be aware sir that people have gladly sacrificed their very lives to defend this sacrament. You mentioned your son was raised Catholic am I correct? without having to consult cannon law or bring the catechism into this he should have learned that if he is to receive communion he is intent MUST be to consume the host he is offered. He also as far as I could see was not taking any active participation in the mass he attended. I was going to go further in my comment but I believe my previous commentators have more than adequately stated the other reasons to think that this was premeditated. and I agree with the previous poster who stated that this is much different than desecrating a religious symbol, you are desecrating Christ himself. I say all this not for my own personal sake but because your son has committed a terrible sin and that if it is true that he is a Catholic this compounds the sin all the more so, assuming the information provided to us it is hard for him to claim ignorance any way he slices it. I ask for your son's sake and for the restoration of peace to what is already a terrible situation I would say that your son should offer an apology demonstrating contrition...

(and it goes on like that) I have tried responding on that thread a couple times, in a respectful way, but neither comment has made it through moderation. So I'll post the answer here: It may well be the body of Christ, who came to save the world and all that, but not a shred of evidence exists to that effect. And precious little that Jesus' actual body ever existed either. When you believe in something that cannot be demonstrated let alone proven, don't be shocked if others fail to take it as seriously as you do. That time in history passed a long while back.

Posted by: Jim Claunch | July 12, 2008 11:35 AM

Insane indeed! One definition of insane is "utterly senseless". Many brights above say this "Cracker Caper" makes no "sense". It is nonSENSE. Think about it. The entire Enlightenment was and is an intellectual battle over the issue of trusting our own friggin' senses of sight,hearing,smell,taste,touch rather than trusting brute authority of priest and king. Science,reason and critical thinking all say we must bow instead to fact and sense. We say faith also must bow to fact or it is insane faith,senseless faith. To live in a world where authority, instead of fact and experience, tells us a cracker is not a cracker while at the same time our own senses tell us it indeed is a cracker is by definition to be without any SENSE. Might as well be blind,deaf,nose-less,tongue-less,and full-body numb and then run off to umpire a baseball game!(Some of those umps need a little Enlightenment too!) The old pre-enlightenment worldview is insane and senseless by definition. It is a Witchdoctorville in which even witches are not safe. There could be no more apt "symbol" of this basic conflict over what is in fact REAL, there could be no more painful nerve spot touching on the core conflict between the Dark Ages and the Enlightenment than the senseLESS doctrine of Transubtantiation of crackers into the body of God. Insanity says what you see is NOT what you get. Sanity says, "Screw that, big guy, what I see is INDEED what I get!" Two opposite worldviews, two conflicting paradigms( both insane to one another by the way) war here to define the one reality in which we must live together. Only one reality can be true unless there be two realities which is a logical impossiblity by the rational law of identity. Each one thing has one and only one identity or no one thing has any logical identity at all. This is another definition of insanity "seeing multiple realities". I say ,and I stand with all others who say,"If it looks like a duck and walks like a duck and quacks like a duck and tastes like a duck, AND craps like a duck is NOT a friggin CHICKEN. To call it a chicken makes no SENSE and is insane (utterly sense-less)!!!!. Still doubt this? Go in any preschool and hold up a cracker and ask a three year kid , "What do I have in my hand Suzie?" That brilliant child will tell anyone with a big smile on her face that it is a...... cracker. It takes a great deal of indoctrination and peer pressure and threat of bodily harm (here and hereafter) to take that simple truth away from the child. How very sad that this indoctrination can be done and is done every day in our world. I for one am glad to see that some of you good teacher folk are a bit upset at the way such little students are being treated. It seems we have learned now that the Biblical admonition "Except you become as a little child" can be taken to mean more than one thing!! What is the SIMPLE truth? If the kid says a cracker is a cracker and a HUGE worldwide institution says it is NOT a cracker those who are enlightened, those who care about the simple truth, those who fight for what is true, and then teach others the truth, and go on to teach others to care for what is true- these "truth teachers" will go with the little kid into a brighter tomorrow. Those who are insane and senseless will go bumbling and blinded on a "trip" back into the Dark Ages where their life and their "reality" are full of of violence, prejudice,and nonsense. Some have chosen the truth as their authority and are enlightened. Others, more primitive ones, have chosen authority for their truth and are in the dark. Who would ever have ever guessed that it would take a "Cracker Caper" to bring all this "sense vs. nonsense" into the LIGHT of truth where even a simple cracker may be examined for what it really IS and also for what it is NOT.

Posted by: Iain Walker | July 12, 2008 11:58 AM

Amy (Comment #407):

what is a lie? If you don't believe in God, then is there really any truth?

Yes. There are descriptive statements with determinate truth values whether a deity exists or not.

Why would you question whether somebody was "prepared to lie" if it were not a sin or at least considered wrong?

One can consider something to be wrong without reference to gods. Lying diminishes trust and thereby undermines social relations. It can be used to manipulate people and reduce their ability to make informed decisions. Do you really need a god to tell you that this is undesirable?

You basicially [sic] just admitted to believing in the 10 Comandments [sic] right there.

So ... someone disapproves of lying, which happens to be forbidden by one out of the ten commandments. From this you deduce that said person believes in all ten of them. Does one really need to point out the fallacy here?

You athiest [sic] anti-Christians are so funny as you all hang yourself on your own ignorant words. I am going to laugh all night at you.

An unkind person might note the irony of this in the light of the rib-tickling ignorance displayed in your own posts.

Oh, and from #402:

I know the Truth. And you do too...inside. You know you do. You were born with it inside of you.

As wrong as wrong can be. Truth is not a gut feeling. It's something you work out with your brain.

Posted by: SEF | July 12, 2008 1:59 PM

I think it would be awesome if you went to the convention and just stood outside the door for awhile, doing nothing.

Posted by: brnofeathers | July 12, 2008 4:08 PM

Also on flickr:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/24218589@N03/2661293123/#preview

Posted by: Scorpious | July 13, 2008 1:27 AM

If they want their convention in St.Paul, I say let'em have it. If I can help it, I'm gonna be out of town or as nowhere near any of that Republican crap as I can as I actually have to live here!

If only the Democrats had picked first and picked us. Tis would be much, much, much, much better. Much better.

Posted by: Kobra | July 13, 2008 2:00 AM

#512:

I know it's not wrong or entirely inaccurate, but it sounds a little presumptuous. It isn't really that presumptuous, but it sounds like it is.

Posted by: Tom L | July 13, 2008 3:44 AM

Do you suppose they are so sensitive about calling them "crackers" because of the cannibalism aspect? (think about it...)

Posted by: scooter | July 13, 2008 7:21 AM

You Tube Eucharist
Challenge with: Wild Bill "Don" O'Heuwwe

Posted by: Mijan | July 13, 2008 1:06 PM

I am so, so, SO very glad that I left the Catholic church YEARS ago. What's sad is that I know some very nice, moderate, educated Catholics who are educated and firmly support the scientific theory of evolution, who understand that human life and suffering is far more important than a cracker, who vote to support gay rights, and so on. I don't know why they still cling to the Catholic Church, but that's their choice. I think more and more of the sane ones are leaving it.

But really now, all of these religions espousing violence for the dumbest little things... does religion make a person insane? Really.

Posted by: Brian | July 14, 2008 11:14 AM

I got a link to your site from somebody criticizing you and I'm very glad I did. After poking around your blog for the better part of a morning I've learned a lot, laughed a bit, and found many reasons to keep coming back. Thanks!

At first, I thought the whole desecrating the Eucharist thing was a little foolish, but now I'm thinking you may be onto something. St. Boniface converted the pagans by chopping down the oak of Thor. When he wasn't instantly struck by lightening the pagans gave up their old Gods. Perhaps others will be convinced of God's absence after absolutely nothing happens to you.

In response to #564 where Mijan wonders why so many moderate well educated people stay Catholic. I'd like to think that I fall into that category and I have a lot of similar friends. For me its because I like the community and cultural aspect. I'm about as sure as one can be that God doesn't exist, but I still like going to church on Sunday. Does that make me an idiot? Probably. But the Catholic Church has been good to me. Most importantly, it was my Catholic education that opened my eyes to so many things and started me on my path of learning. For that I am grateful.

Posted by: A Yank In Oz | July 14, 2008 1:12 PM

Add to this the Australian law that went into effect special for the "Popathon" being held in Sydney this week, making persons "annoying or inconveniencing" Catholics subject to a $5500 fine, and one becomes convinced that the entire world has gone way beyond mad. It has brought out the creativity in people designing T-shirts to be worn this week in hopes of being "annoying". "Taking the piss" is the Aussie WAY! Slogans like "Pope Go Homo" and "The Pope Is Wrong - Put a Condom On" will be splashed across protesters' T-shirts during next week's World Youth Day (WYD). Ah to be in Sydney for the "annoying of the Pope......."

Posted by: abb3w | July 14, 2008 2:15 PM

But can PZ "rend fortifications as the rushing passage of time consumes cheap cloth"?

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 15, 2008 1:16 PM

Posted by: gerry salvatore | July 15, 2008 1:14 PM

Another fuckwit blowhard who's never been to the site and wetting his pants over the islamic hordes.

Posted by: Sondra | July 15, 2008 6:38 PM

This is sort of related; it involves a religion;

Jul 13, 11:09 PM EDT

Mormon missionary calendar-maker excommunicated
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SALT LAKE CITY (AP) -- The creator of a calendar that featured shirtless Mormon missionaries was excommunicated Sunday after a disciplinary meeting with local church leaders in Las Vegas.

Chad Hardy said he bears no ill will toward the council of elders from The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

"I felt like I spoke my truth," the 31-year-old entertainment entrepreneur said. "Bottom-line, they still felt the calendar is inappropriate and not the image that the church wants to have."

"Men on a Mission," which has sold nearly 10,000 copies at $14.99 each, included pictures of 12 returned missionaries wearing black slacks, but not their trademark white shirts, in modest poses. The men also were photographed in traditional missionary garb and share their religious beliefs in biographical sketches.

Some of the 12 models have also been called to disciplinary meetings, but none were punished.

"I have no ill feelings toward any of those people," Hardy said of the church council. "They did what they believed was right and I really do feel it was the best decision for both of us."

Frank E. Davie, the senior leader over a group of Mormon congregations in the Las Vegas area, confirmed the 12-member council's decision in a telephone call to The Associated Press. He declined further comment.

Hardy said the purpose of the 2008 calendar was not to tear down the church or its 13 million members.

"The project is about stepping outside the stereotypes and stepping outside of the image," Hardy said. "Not everybody fits the image and I let them know we're not trying to portray an image for the entire church."

An excommunicated person is removed from official church rolls, but are still welcome at church services. Excommunicated members are prohibited from receiving the sacrament and can't perform church callings such as teaching or preaching during meetings. They also cannot enter church temples.

---

On the Net:

http://www.lds.net

http://www.mormonsexposed.com

Posted by: puzzlelady | September 30, 2009 8:29 PM

I, for one, am celebrating Blasphemy Day by revisiting the most brilliant exponent of it, Tom Lehrer and his Vatican Rag. Enjoy: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QKWI41G8h_A