Pharyngula

Posted by: jorge666 | July 24, 2008 9:50 AM

Oh Crackers! I got the first post!

Posted by: Luke O'Dell | July 24, 2008 9:51 AM

The suspense...

Posted by: jorge666 | July 24, 2008 9:54 AM

Where are those cute ring girls, and where's that bottle of rum?

IOW

Lions 7 ....

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 9:56 AM

What kind of pompous idiot signs of a post with this ?

"Very respectfully,

J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy"

What relevance does his being a commander in the US Navy have to discussion ? Does Annapolis teach advanced theology or philosophy ? Or does he just think that by putting that we will think him less of an idiot ?

Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 9:57 AM

Although creationists and other trolling wackaloons are long known around these parts, the unending chasm of idiocy that has been attracted by the crackergate is on a whole new level. I guess that a whole new level in irrational inanity has been uncovered. I wonder how will the zombies react when PZ delivers evidence of the heinous "desecration"?

Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 24, 2008 9:58 AM

Even on a secular level, we can all relate to the need for reminders of the things not readily available to us. To have what we hold sacred close to us whether it is the faint smell of your wife's perfume on you when you are away at work; or the picture of a deceased child; the 1st place medal for that 8th grade science project. These are personal things that have no meaning to anyone else. Yet most can respect that, but we cannot respect this because it is of "God"? - yet another tedious godbot

Bill Donahue and most of the Catholics commenting here have been very insistent that the cracker is not just a "reminder" - it is actually part of God's body (we are, perhaps fortunately, not told which part). If one believed the picture of their deceased child actually was that child, they would be unhesitatingly diagnosed as delusional.

Moreover, there is an important difference between reminders of people we have known and loved and those of manufactured "celebrities" such as "God": compare Crackergate with the outpourings of "grief" in the UK when Princess Diana died - I assure you I have quite as much disrespect for the nonsense of people fooling themselves that her death was like losing a member of their own family, as I am of the absurdities the cracker-worshippers have posted here.

Posted by: True Bob | July 24, 2008 9:58 AM

Me too, JoJo. I wanted to tell him it is poor practice for still serving military to include rank and service. It implies that the service endorses the viewpoint. Not just here, but letters to editors, etc.

I also wanted to ask him to post his letters to UCF and Catholic League, since it's all about behavior and respect.

Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 9:59 AM

Holy shit, I can't believe this cracker business is still taking up multiple threads. Isn't anyone else as sick as this cracker crap as I am? I mean, there comes a point when it's all been said. Crazy catholics: we've heard it all a million times, give it a frigging rest. Don't you have to go to church or confession or something by now?

Posted by: Stephen Wells | July 24, 2008 9:59 AM

Somebody did point out to the ostentatious public prayer posters that that's Pharisee behaviour, right?

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | July 24, 2008 10:02 AM

"Very respectfully,

J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy".

Ahh! Thanks for pointing that out... I shall hereforto address you with the respect you so obviouls deserve, since you went out of your way to point it out to us.

Thank you, Commander Whackaloon.

Posted by: Jeffrey A. stuart | July 24, 2008 10:03 AM

Darn. I was going to reply to J. A. Stuart,
Commander, United States Navy. I wanted to point out some problems with his logic and then throw rank at him.

JoJo, CAPT, USN (Ret)

CAPT,

You'll notice I addressed Dr. Myers with his title as well. This isn't about "throwing rank around" but simply showing respect as a fellow professional and discussing things like gentlemen; something that is increasingly being lost in the college world, OUR NAVY, and society as a whole. Perhaps this is but another windmill I am tilting at but so be it. That aside sir, I welcome your opinion.

Very respectfully,

J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy

Posted by: Ryan F Stello | July 24, 2008 10:04 AM

In reference to Jeffrey A. Stuart (#1478), a serious question for anybody:

Why should someone be dissapointed that attempts to harass and intimidate are not honored (or, as Jeffrey words it, respected)?

Even the crazed Catholics who came here and ranted in hyperboly should be able to see the obvious irony: Has the 'desecration' (which, let me remind you all, we don't know in what form it was) honestly affected the way you live and practice?

The dramatic flailings here lead me to make one charge to the hyper-sensitive godbots amongst us: get some perspective.

So sayeth me.

Posted by: AJS | July 24, 2008 10:05 AM

Surely at anytime when martial law is not in operation, any civilian is deemed to outrank anyone in any branch of the military?

AJS (Civilian)

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 10:06 AM

Well it would be Professor Myers rather than simply doctor. So much for that respect eh ?

And also do not presume we are all Americans. If you mean the US Navy say so. Else some will think you are in the French Navy, some in the Royal Navy, Royal Australian Navy or Royal New Zealand Navy.

Posted by: Turzovka | July 24, 2008 10:07 AM

Kseniya quote on exorcisms and hell (post #1459): The delusion. It burns. Heh."

That's right Kseniya, every Catholic priest and nun is a liar. In fact, everyone you do not agree with is delusional or a liar. So during an exorcism when the possessed child speaks in languages they could not possibly have ever known previously, the witnesses are all liars? The levitations, the super human strength in a child, the furniture moving, the growling unnatural voices eminating from the child, these are all lies, too. So was Padre Pio a charlatan who bled from his hands and feet every day for 50 years. So also are those lying, tricky nuns who have statues of Mary and Jesus weeping tears of human blood. So, too, were the Fatima children who told the people gathered in three months time on October 13 Mary will perform a miracle for all to see and know this message is from God. So when the sun danced defying cosmic laws and then charged the earth scaring the 70,000 in attendance, that was a lie, too, right? Or was it mass hallucination? Of course you wouldn't be frightened because you are so smart.

Posted by: tsg | July 24, 2008 10:09 AM

Plainly it's not just a cracker.

More accurately, it is just a cracker, some people believe it isn't and also think everyone else should believe that simply because they do.

That's rather the point, although I fully expect it will go sailing by without a second glance....

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | July 24, 2008 10:11 AM

@ Rooke

As I mentioned last night; you've had time to mull over my analogies and yet no one as sufficiently countered them.

We're all familiar already with your propensity for delusion. That you actually believe this statment comes as no surprise to us. More aptly, we're just growing tired of you demanding answers, then closing your eyes and blocking your ears when the're given. You're a bore, Mr. Rooke. You're fading into the background noise at this point, along with Fr. J.

Posted by: Rob (Not the Catholic nutter) | July 24, 2008 10:12 AM

@Pete Rook:

PJ receives junk mail. PJ throws out junk mail. Please explain how that is an indefensible position.

Posted by: AJ Milne | July 24, 2008 10:13 AM

As I mentioned last night; you've had time to mull over my analogies and yet no one as sufficiently countered them...

Okay. Here's an analogy you may like. You're in a dungeon, wearing a miniskirt, and there's this blonde woman in a tight rubber suit. With a whip... And then there's these handcuffs... And an iron maiden... And... ummm... I dunno... Can we throw in a cattle prod? Is that kinky, or just sick?

Anyway, there's also this book...

Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 10:15 AM

Commander Cracker.

It's already been done. We're just waiting to see the youtube video. I hope it's funny. But it may just be a non-event.

Posted by: Aaron Baker | July 24, 2008 10:16 AM

Gee, P.Z., you wanted attention and you got it. There's no pleasing some people. I do sympathize, though: I've gotten into more than one flamewar online and then wondered what I could have been thinking. (Partly thanks to your example, I've largely given up on worrying about civility. Gaze upon your works, o Mighty One, and be proud.)

Posted by: sil-chan | July 24, 2008 10:17 AM

I wonder if his secret third entry is going to be a copy of origin of species just to show that nothing is sacred...

Posted by: True Bob | July 24, 2008 10:18 AM

Turzovka

Masss hysteria and Pious Fraud are not miracles. If you could take a throwaway lighter back 200 years (heck, how about 100), it would be called a miracle. But we both know that the lighter has a valve to release a flammable gas, a wheel with a sparker on it that scrapes a piece of flint, and a little vessel of flammable fluid.

Posted by: qbsmd | July 24, 2008 10:19 AM

PZ, when there are multiple threads on the same topic like this, I think it would be a good idea for you to summarize the points that have been made ad nauseam, and ask people not to rehash the same thing over and over, rather than just saying "fresh thread", which seems to imply "new beginning, repeat everything". That would also give people just joining the discussion the ability to meaningfully contribute without reading 10000 posts.

Posted by: Moses | July 24, 2008 10:21 AM

Although creationists and other trolling wackaloons are long known around these parts, the unending chasm of idiocy that has been attracted by the crackergate is on a whole new level. I guess that a whole new level in irrational inanity has been uncovered. I wonder how will the zombies react when PZ delivers evidence of the heinous "desecration"?

Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 9:57 AM

I'm truly enjoying it. For so long Muslims have been routinely castigated as "unhinged" and "frothing" because of stupid crap like death threats because of cartoons, etc., while the Catholics and other Christians have been on their soapbox about how much better they are than them...

Add in the usual racism, claims to the lack of "civilization" (as if we didn't get it from them, hello?) on their part and the entire explicit/implicit religious/racial stereotyping and superiority claims...

And all it takes is ONE FRIGGIN' CRACKER and it's the 15th Century all over again. All we're lacking are actual pitchforks and torches even though we have the Internet equivalent. So, when the vast bulk of conservative and moderate Christian churches say "not us," we can say:

Bullshit, same as...

Posted by: Ponder | July 24, 2008 10:22 AM

We've gained notoriety,
And caused much anxiety
In the Audubon Society
With our games.
They call it impiety,
And lack of propriety,
And quite a variety
Of unpleasant names.
But you couldn't call PZ a slacker
To want to dispose of a cracker.

(Apologies to Tom Lehrer)

Not against any law to destroy a book or a biscuit. Is against the law to cause property or personal damage to anyone who does so. Read it and weep god-botherers. Watch your back though, Dr Myers, if nothing else this whole affair has shown that the deranged lunatic quotient is a lot higher than previously thought.

Posted by: Cynthia Heimsoth | July 24, 2008 10:22 AM

You know, Mr. Myers, you've just proven our point. If it's just a cracker, who gives a flying leap whether you eat it, bury it in the garden or give it to your dog. However, since you get all this press coverage, there must be SOMETHING to the claims that the Blessed Sacrament is something more than "just a cracker." Count yourself lucky -- if you'd profaned a picture of Mohammed, you wouldn't have lived long enough to try to collect names and addresses. We Catholics know that God forbids murder, and that He desires not the death of the sinner, but his repentance. I'm praying for you, Mr. Myers, whether you like it or not.

By the way, I was considering calling for all your Biology students to take one Petri dish each from the lab next week, cleaned, sanitized and de-agared per laboratory standards, and giving it to a Catholic of the community (if the student himself/herself was Catholic of course they could do it) to be ceremonially crushed outside the door of your office. But that would be silly and childish. After all, it's just a piece of glassware.

And if you want my address, Mr. Myers, just check www.smartpages.com.

Posted by: NC Paul | July 24, 2008 10:23 AM

So when the sun danced defying cosmic laws and then charged the earth scaring the 70,000 in attendance, that was a lie, too, right? Or was it mass hallucination?

Probably a bit of both. It's not like Fatima (and the other Marian pilgrimage sites) haven't made a lot of money out of the "apparitions". Forging religious relics has a long history in Europe and the Near East.

Mix in the kind of delusion that equates a piece of magic wafer with a human life and you could certainly have mass hysteria and hallucination.

Imagine you were one among 70,000 fanatical Catholics who didn't see the Sun dance (a phenomenon strangely unremarked upon by astronomers of the time). Would you speak up and say you hadn't seen anything strange our would you go along with the crowd?

One thing these threads are good for is to show that those who criticised Dawkins, Sam Harris and others for attacking a straw man of primitive irrational faith were completely wrong.

Religion inspires delusional lunacy and the stuff posted by the Catholics here is ample evidence to that effect.

Posted by: Jeffrey A. Stuart | July 24, 2008 10:26 AM

Why should someone be dissapointed that attempts to harass and intimidate are not honored (or, as Jeffrey words it, respected)?

Even the crazed Catholics who came here and ranted in hyperboly should be able to see the obvious irony: Has the 'desecration' (which, let me remind you all, we don't know in what form it was) honestly affected the way you live and practice?

The dramatic flailings here lead me to make one charge to the hyper-sensitive godbots amongst us: get some perspective.

So sayeth me.

Mr. Stello,

Reasonable questions and reasonable point. As a Catholic, I don't like what he has purportedly done but according to my beliefs I have effectively done the same thing through my own sins. That is what I would call Catholics to focus upon; our own sinful nature.

That being said, we can only control our own actions and I would have liked to see Dr. Myers (coming from a profession I respect) rise above such things and take the high road even when others don't. It seems to me that if we are going to use other's peoples poor behavior as an excuse for our own, then things will never improve.

V/r

Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 10:26 AM

Professor Coleman,

Where I come from a Professor is a Professor. There are no "ranks", you either are or you ain't. And PZ is.

Posted by: Janine ID | July 24, 2008 10:27 AM

"So when the sun danced defying cosmic laws and then charged the earth scaring the 70,000 in attendance, that was a lie, too, right? Or was it mass hallucination? Of course you wouldn't be frightened because you are so smart."

uh... Huh. Or at least a load of bullshit. The Sun is a physical body. If the sun suddenly charged at us and danced around we would've burned to death. That and EVERYONE ON THE FUCKING PLANET WOULD'VE SEEN IT

A guy on a forum I checked puts it the best:

"I have a hard time believing in this, despite the fact that 70,000 people witnessed it. When you have that many people sitting around, anticipating something, looking for anything that might seem unusual, someone is bound to come up with something. And then what is everyone else going to say? Everyone wants to have seen it, because those who didn't weren't special enough to receive the "communication". Was there any chance that these people were going to go home without having seen anything?"

Sheesh, what is it with you idiots.

Posted by: Michelle

I have no idea what "miracle" you are referring to. But if the Sun started to move about, it would not be seen by just 70,000 people. It would potentially be seen by at least half of the world's population. Yet we seem to be lacking these reports from distant lands.

And you are calling most of us idiots? Please learn how to reason. It will make you less gullible.

Posted by: tsg | July 24, 2008 10:27 AM

You know, Mr. Myers, you've just proven our point. If it's just a cracker, who gives a flying leap whether you eat it, bury it in the garden or give it to your dog. However, since you get all this press coverage, there must be SOMETHING to the claims that the Blessed Sacrament is something more than "just a cracker."

Belief != fact.

Count yourself lucky -- if you'd profaned a picture of Mohammed, you wouldn't have lived long enough to try to collect names and addresses.

Koran envy.

We Catholics know that God forbids murder, and that He desires not the death of the sinner, but his repentance. I'm praying for you, Mr. Myers, whether you like it or not.

Praying at you.

By the way, I was considering calling for all your Biology students to take one Petri dish each from the lab next week, cleaned, sanitized and de-agared per laboratory standards, and giving it to a Catholic of the community (if the student himself/herself was Catholic of course they could do it) to be ceremonially crushed outside the door of your office. But that would be silly and childish. After all, it's just a piece of glassware.

Theft analogy.

Really. Can't we just number these bogus arguments and save us all a bunch of typing?

Posted by: Rob (Not the Catholic nutter) | July 24, 2008 10:29 AM

God, who created the entire universe,

So who created God, if everything needs a creator?

If God didn't need a creator, why does the universe?

Posted by: Turzovka | July 24, 2008 10:31 AM

Fatima is thee miracle that skeptics cannot explain away.

Below is the text of a science professor who was present on October 13. His testimony is surely validated by many sources. His account is not one of a religious zealot, but one of an unbiased observer.

An Eyewitness Account by Dr. José Maria de Almeida Garrett, professor at the Faculty of Sciences of Coimbra, Portugal

"It must have been 1:30 p.m when there arose, at the exact spot where the children were, a column of smoke, thin, fine and bluish, which extended up to perhaps two meters above their heads, and evaporated at that height. This phenomenon, perfectly visible to the naked eye, lasted for a few seconds. Not having noted how long it had lasted, I cannot say whether it was more or less than a minute. The smoke dissipated abruptly, and after some time, it came back to occur a second time, then a third time

"The sky, which had been overcast all day, suddenly cleared; the rain stopped and it looked as if the sun were about to fill with light the countryside that the wintery morning had made so gloomy. I was looking at the spot of the apparitions in a serene, if cold, expectation of something happening and with diminishing curiosity because a long time had passed without anything to excite my attention. The sun, a few moments before, had broken through the thick layer of clouds which hid it and now shone clearly and intensely.

Suddenly I heard the uproar of thousands of voices, and I saw the whole multitude spread out in that vast space at my feet...turn their backs to that spot where, until then, all their expectations had been focused, and look at the sun on the other side. I turned around, too, toward the point commanding their gaze and I could see the sun, like a very clear disc, with its sharp edge, which gleamed without hurting the sight. It could not be confused with the sun seen through a fog (there was no fog at that moment), for it was neither veiled nor dim. At Fatima, it kept its light and heat, and stood out clearly in the sky, with a sharp edge, like a large gaming table. The most astonishing thing was to be able to stare at the solar disc for a long time, brilliant with light and heat, without hurting the eyes or damaging the retina. [During this time], the sun's disc did not remain immobile, it had a giddy motion, [but] not like the twinkling of a star in all its brilliance for it spun round upon itself in a mad whirl.

"During the solar phenomenon, which I have just described, there were also changes of color in the atmosphere. Looking at the sun, I noticed that everything was becoming darkened. I looked first at the nearest objects and then extended my glance further afield as far as the horizon. I saw everything had assumed an amethyst color. Objects around me, the sky and the atmosphere, were of the same color. Everything both near and far had changed, taking on the color of old yellow damask. People looked as if they were suffering from jaundice and I recall a sensation of amusement at seeing them look so ugly and unattractive. My own hand was the same color.

"Then, suddenly, one heard a clamor, a cry of anguish breaking from all the people. The sun, whirling wildly, seemed all at once to loosen itself from the firmament and, blood red, advance threateningly upon the earth as if to crush us with its huge and fiery weight. The sensation during those moments was truly terrible.

"All the phenomena which I have described were observed by me in a calm and serene state of mind without any emotional disturbance. It is for others to interpret and explain them. Finally, I must declare that never, before or after October 13 [1917], have I observed similar atmospheric or solar phenomena."

Posted by: SC | July 24, 2008 10:32 AM

The condensed J. A. Stuart:

...gentlemen...as a man...men...gentleman...fellow man...

Indeed, how disappointing.

Indeed.

Posted by: Moses | July 24, 2008 10:33 AM

You'll notice I addressed Dr. Myers with his title as well. This isn't about "throwing rank around" but simply showing respect as a fellow professional and discussing things like gentlemen; something that is increasingly being lost in the college world, OUR NAVY, and society as a whole. Perhaps this is but another windmill I am tilting at but so be it. That aside sir, I welcome your opinion.

Very respectfully,

J. A. Stuart
Commander, United States Navy

Posted by: Jeffrey A. stuart | July 24, 2008 10:03 AM

No. You were waving your dick, asshole. I don't sign with my old rank. I don't throw around my titles. I don't bring up that I'm effing related to the Queen of England and if, oh, maybe a few tens, if not hundreds, of thousands of people higher up in the succession died and I made a byzantine and tortured claim I could be the next King of England. (Of course, if that happened, the death toll will be in the billions and I'd likely be one of them...)

In other words, big fucking deal. I have to be known for my arguments, not my remote-to-the-point-of-ludicrous shot at a title. Or that I made rank in the military which (having been in there, isn't hard, you guys are (on average) as dumb as a box of rocks compared to the profession in which I excel).

Dumb-ass.

Posted by: raven | July 24, 2008 10:35 AM

Peter Rooke the zombie:

As I mentioned last night; you've had time to mull over my analogies and yet no one as sufficiently countered them.

Oh gee, your analogies all have to do with rape and dead bodies. Sign of a seriously defective psycopath.

Although, there is another explanation. Rooke could be an undead, a zombie. What we call dead bodies he calls dinner. I pity anyone who lives within a few hundred miles of him.

Posted by: Moses | July 24, 2008 10:35 AM

As I mentioned last night; you've had time to mull over my analogies and yet no one as sufficiently countered them. There is a phrase about the impossibility of defending the indefensible. PZ Myers actions are indefensible. And his acolytes appear to be willing partners to his crimes.

Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 24, 2008 10:07 AM

Well, if your head wasn't shoved so far up your ass you might have noticed that they were. Only you're too dense to see that they were.

Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 10:36 AM

Matt Penfold

Don't address me as Professor. I hate it. My name is Rob.

Unfortunately, you are wrong. Academic tradition, for what it's worth, is as I stated. You are not addressed as "Professor" until you are actually a fully vested Professor. Not an assistant or associate. Personally, it is irrelevant, as most students and staff address faculty as "Dr."

Posted by: JoJo | July 24, 2008 10:37 AM

From: CAPT J.J. Smuckitelli, USN (Ret)
To: CDR J.A. Stuart, USN

Subj: Proper Preparation of Correspondence

Ref: (a) SECNAVINST 5216.5D
(b) Amendment 1, United States Constitution

1. Reference (a) discourages the use of military titles when writing informally on non-military subjects.

2. It is my recommendation that you refrain from using your rank and military branch when discussing religion and religious matters on a public blog. Such use might be considered a violation of reference (b).

3. I apologize for not following the formatting requirements of reference (a). Unfortunately, I'm not familiar with HTML to properly format this letter.

/s/
J.J. Smuckitelli

Posted by: St | July 24, 2008 10:39 AM

I think the argument: "The miracle at fatima really happened! Here's a newspaper picture of a lot of people staring at the sky!" deserves some kind of award for unprecedented levels of fail.

Here's a few