…and this is a 
Keep that sword out of the hands of the Lord
Category: Politics • Religion
Posted on: July 9, 2008 10:38 AM, by PZ Myers
Here's a much more serious issue than a goddamned cracker: it's the steady accumulation of military power in religious hands. It's not overt policy, but we should be worried that there is an increasing association between religiosity and military service — an association between credulity and obscene amounts of physical power. Jeremy Hall is discovering this first-hand.
Hall grew up reading the Bible every night and saying grace at dinner. Then, after his first tour of duty, he met some friends who were atheist and decided to read the Bible again. He read the whole Bible, and had so many unanswered questions, he says, he decided to embrace atheism.
In the army, he says, that cost him dearly.
Hall says he was denied a promotion because of his beliefs, and felt his life was in jeopardy. He says the army assigned him a full-time bodyguard because of threats.
At Thanksgiving, Hall refused to pray with his table and says an officer told him to go sit somewhere else.
Also, after he was nearly killed when his humvee was attacked, he says a fellow soldier asked him, "do you believe in Jesus now?"
Hall says he was ostracized because he didn't embrace fundamentalist Christianity.
The excuses for denying Hall promotions are familiar:
He also said he missed out on promotions because he is an atheist.
"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.
I recall hearing similar sentiments used to justify denying gay soldiers promotions, or even existence in the military. It sounds like our military is staffed with intolerant wimps and losers who cannot cope with the idea prospect the man in the trench next to them might have different interests and ideas, and that the much valued "unit cohesion" of our military is tissue thin and fragile.
Of course the military leadership is in denial (this should also trouble everyone: shouldn't our military be first and foremost a pragmatic organization that is equipped to cope with reality?).
Religious discrimination is a violation of the First Amendment and is also against military policy. The Pentagon refused to discuss specifics of Hall's case -- citing the litigation. But Deputy Undersecretary Bill Carr said complaints of evangelizing are "relatively rare." He also said the Pentagon is not pushing one faith among troops.
"If an atheist chose to follow their convictions, absolutely that's acceptable," said Carr. "And that's a point of religious accommodation in department policy, one may hold whatever faith, or may hold no faith."
R i g h t. You all remember that story about Christian Embassy actively proselytizing? The Christian Right has been pushing its way into the military for decades. The Campus Crusade for Christ has been working hard to indoctrinate new members of the military — you should be horrified at the priest in this video who proudly states that the US Air Force Academy, with their help, turns out "government-paid missionaries" for Christ.
Look around and this conflation of religious (specifically Christian) values and military service is everywhere.
Weinstein [of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation] said he doesn't buy it and points to a promotional video by a group called Christian Embassy. The video, which shows U.S. generals in uniform, was shot inside the Pentagon. The generals were subsequently reprimanded.
Another group, the Officers' Christian Fellowship, has representatives on nearly all military bases worldwide. Its vision, which is spelled out on the organization's Web site, reads, "A spiritually transformed military, with ambassadors for Christ in uniform empowered by the Holy Spirit."
Now the government has no right to tell its soldiers that they may not believe whatever they want; we can't disallow religion among soldiers. But there is a huge difference between that and actively promoting religious belief in the military, which is what they are doing by allowing these lying priests free access to soldiers.
I've been reading a book called Constantine's Sword: The Church and the Jews -- A History(amzn/b&n/abe/pwll) by James Carroll (truth be told, it's a very bad book, infuriatingly written with much self-indulgence and repetitive, pointless emphasis by the author on his deep Catholic indoctrination, which means he is blind to a lot of the big picture — but he doles out enough interesting ideas to keep me going, so far). It makes the complementary point that this isn't just bad for the culture, but it's bad for the religion — that many of the worst excesses of historical discrimination and oppression are the product of not just religion alone, but that dangerous combination of religion coupled to the machinery of the state. Look here, now, in America…it's happening to us.
Politics
Comments
Posted by: Lightnin | July 9, 2008 10:45 AM
Wow, one night a week set aside for religious
indoctrinationeducation at the air force academy.Posted by: clinteas | July 9, 2008 10:46 AM
//"I was told because I can't put my personal beliefs aside and pray with troops I wouldn't make a good leader," Hall said.//
Yeah,Im not surprised they would mistake atheism for a belief,and one that cant be trusted for that !
Posted by: harv | July 9, 2008 10:50 AM
I am an Army Trumpet player. Here is how I got to a commitment several days ago:
Turn left on to Barnes Ave., pass Good Sheapard Chapel on the left. Continue down Barnes past the Religious Support Office. Continue on Barnes past the Friendship Chapel. Barnes deadends on 19th Street. Turn Left on 19th Street to the Gordon Club. Park in the Gordon Club Parking lot and perform with four other soldiers for the Post Prayer Breakfast. (all funded with your tax dollars).
Posted by: The Science Pundit | July 9, 2008 10:51 AM
I saw this this morning. As horrified as I am, I can't say that I'm very surprised. I've known about this sort of thing for a while now. I would recommend joining the Freedom From Religion Foundation (sorry, I'll have to find the link) to anyone who wants to help fight this sort of discrimination.
Posted by: Randy | July 9, 2008 10:55 AM
I hate to say it, but as long as you have all volunteer armed forces, this is going to increase due to the selective nature of who chooses to joined the armed services. So the obvious solution.... bring back the draft.
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 9, 2008 10:58 AM
It is scary. And, the fact that there are frothy-mouthed little Christians willing to defend this coup, is even scarier, and I suppose we're only a few steps away from the philosophy of "Convert or Die."
Man... It scares me shitless to consider an armed and dangerous army whose minds are tortured and polluted by the ubiquitous Christian persecution complex. Add to that the fact that their cult believes that in in death they are rewarded with
72 virginseternal luxury, it's even more terrifying.I just hope that innocent people aren't harmed when these godly bastards start their mad and holy killing sprees.
Posted by: Quidam | July 9, 2008 10:59 AM
Good point. Where else can a belligerent home schooled evangelist find employment.Posted by: Lilly de Lure | July 9, 2008 11:02 AM
Quidam said:
I hear the The White House is quite keen on them just now ;-)
Posted by: Jata | July 9, 2008 11:05 AM
That's... depressing. Is there some way to contribute to Hall's legal team or something? Some website up where we can show moral support? That video is disgusting and terrifying, and it makes me want to crawl back into bed and wake up in 500 years, with the hope that civilization will have properly matured by then. Of course, with Jesus Christ as "the issue" for our military, it will probably be even worse by then...
Posted by: Richard Harris | July 9, 2008 11:08 AM
Whaddya expect? The military's always wanted access to secret weapons. And what better than having an omniscient, omnipotent, magic being on side? It's invisible as well. And with a history of promoting & enabling genocide, too. Jesus Feckin' Christ!
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 9, 2008 11:11 AM
Sounds like the prelude to a new round of Crusades.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Michelle | July 9, 2008 11:12 AM
I'm seriously not surprised. In fact, I'd be surprised if you told me that there was no discrimination in the US army.
Still sucks to hear the truth though... But I expected it.
Posted by: heddle | July 9, 2008 11:12 AM
We are in rare agreement. Clever are we Baptists--for introducing into western civilization the notion of separation of church and state.
Posted by: thelogos | July 9, 2008 11:15 AM
Complaints are rare because no one wants to be ostracized for speaking out. I was in and it was like that 10 years ago, before the nutjobs became more visible.
Posted by: Lilly de Lure | July 9, 2008 11:15 AM
Richard Harris said:
If we're talking about the biblical god then might I suggest that an omnipotent, magic being with a history of promoting & enabling genocide, but without the history of changing sides at catastrophically inconvenient moments might be preferable.
Anyone got one going spare?
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 9, 2008 11:20 AM
Quidam said-
"Where else can a belligerent home schooled evangelist find employment."
It seems to me that a fair percentage of them end up as youth pastors.
Posted by: Equisetum | July 9, 2008 11:22 AM
@#5:
I think it's a deeper cultural thing than the all volunteer military, although I think the draft would do something to keep this in check.
I served in an all volunteer military (Air Force) twenty-odd years ago, and this kind of thing (threats against non-believers) was unheard of. I even had a fundamentalist boss who, despite being a terrible boss, never brought his religion into the shop. Religion was a private, separate affair.
The problem, I think, is that, starting in the Reagan years, the fundies have become increasingly politicized and as a result, right wing politics has been increasingly influenced by the fundamentalists. This has naturally leaked into the politics of the military, making such things possible.
That's just my impression, and I could be wrong. I was in the Air Force, and that is (or was) a lot more liberal than the other branches.
Does anyone know of any studies of this? Has there been a real shift in the military, or is it my imagination?
Posted by: Mike Dunford | July 9, 2008 11:26 AM
You're right. This is much more serious than a cracker.
The Military Religious Freedom Foundation (http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/) has been doing exceptionally good work, against very long odds, in these cases. They're definitely a cause worth opening the pocketbook for.
Posted by: raven | July 9, 2008 11:27 AM
There have been reoccurring rumors that the fundies want to infiltrate the military and especially the Air Force to gain access to our nuclear weapons.
Nukes are the ultimate tool for converting people. They are either xians or vaporized. Besides which, many fundies think god needs help with the apocalypse seeing as how he is only the omnipotent creator of the universe.
Whether these are just ghost stories or have any factual basis, who knows? But look at Jonestown Guiana, the World Trade center, the Inquisition, the Salem witch hunts, or Iraq and tell me that there is something fanatics won't do.
Posted by: chuko | July 9, 2008 11:28 AM
You "clever Baptists" only hold to the principle of separation of church and state when you don't have political power.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 9, 2008 11:33 AM
It's the ultimate in stealth--utterly invisible, undetectable, and with no effects whatsoever.
True, the lack of effectiveness is a drawback, but that's what's so clever about it--having no effects, no one will ever be able to detect it.
Anyway, that's what ID counts on, only in reverse. No predictable effects means that it can't be found not to exist.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Walton | July 9, 2008 11:35 AM
As a cadet in the Officers Training Corps, part of the British Army, I can attest that there is nothing like this in the UK armed forces. I don't even know the religious beliefs of most of the personnel I serve with, except my close friends. It isn't something that often comes up in conversation, and I've certainly never encountered a superior officer attempting to convert people.
Posted by: Molly, NYC | July 9, 2008 11:37 AM
In fairness, you could say that of any organized religion.
Posted by: wÒÓ† | July 9, 2008 11:39 AM
(.)(.)
Posted by: Nelson M. | July 9, 2008 11:40 AM
As #12 said...
It's not terribly surprising, but it is terrible.
I imagine that religion has historicaly been a good tool for creating the "unit cohesion" that is so important for an efficient military. I guess we can hope that the military's social evolution follows a course that allows for the embracing of alternitave or lack of spirituality. The sooner the better.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 9, 2008 11:48 AM
This post is disturbing, but it not new.
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/EvangelicalsForceInMilitaryChaplainCorps.html
http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/InfiltratingTheUSMilitaryGenBoykinsWarriors.html
These reports show how the chaplain corp has had vastly decreasing participation by Roman Catholic and mainline Protestent chaplains, and has become a stronghold of evangelicals who actively pursue conversion.
It is at times like these that I feel as though I am powerless to do anything. My congressman is a 16 year incumbent who was a deacon and Sunday school teacher in his local Baptist church, and is so entrenched that he has run unopposed in 4 of the last 5 elections. There is nothing I can do or say that would get him, or a similar thinker, out of office.
That said, something needs to be done so the US can survive the next few decades without these knuckleheads bringing down their own man-made rapture upon us.
Posted by: T.A.C. | July 9, 2008 11:50 AM
I feel the need to bring up my own exprience in defense of the US military every time this comes up, though it seems to ring more and more hollow the more of these things I hear about. I was in the US Navy for five years, only got out recently, and was never one time pressured or discriminted against because of my very vocal atheism.
Still, for those out there who are getting shit, I recommend the Military Association of Atheists and Freethinkers (MAAF) Click on my name for the link.
Posted by: Dunc | July 9, 2008 11:51 AM
Can you imagine the reaction if, say, a bunch of revolutionary Marxists tried that?
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 9, 2008 11:52 AM
That said, something needs to be done so the US can survive the next few decades without these knuckleheads bringing down their own man-made rapture upon us. - Benjamin Franklin
If by "man-made rapture" you mean a nuclear war, or catastrophic climate change, or similar - what about the rest of us? Don't we count?
Posted by: Dwimr | July 9, 2008 11:52 AM
We are officially in the Counter-Enlightenment.
Nice booby, woot.
Posted by: T.A.C. | July 9, 2008 11:54 AM
I should have checked my own link. It appears that Jeremy Hall himself is in the MAAF.
Posted by: Hank Fox | July 9, 2008 11:57 AM
I think this is all worse, even, than we imagine.
Think about this: People who are Christians FIRST don't have a President, they have a King. They don't have a Constitution, they have a Bible. In place of a Bill of Rights, they have Ten Commandments.
Prejudice, against everyone who isn't their kind of believer, is institutionalized (as we're seeing in this case).
Taking precedence over any issue of freedom or patriotism or obedience to proper chain of command is their primary allegiance to their god and church (to get the real picture, imagine someone like James Dobson or Pat Robertson as de facto Commander in Chief of the United States Army).
These people don't really believe in democracy.
In their heads, at least, the U.S. government and our cherished models of democracy and equality have already been overthrown.
If they've got the weapons and the will, everything else is just a matter of time.
Posted by: Tophe | July 9, 2008 12:03 PM
Prelude? What do you think the War on Terrorâ„¢ is?
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 9, 2008 12:08 PM
Mikey Weinstein for Prez!
Posted by: Sir Jebbington | July 9, 2008 12:11 PM
That is so fucking backwards it's not even funny.
Posted by: Bad Albert | July 9, 2008 12:13 PM
I've never understood why an all-powerful being like this Christian god, who allegedly can create and destroy whole universes at will, needs the help of mere humans to accomplish the simple task of defeating a small army composed of other mere humans.
Posted by: Steve Jeffers | July 9, 2008 12:13 PM
I wonder how many of the American fundies who cite Mere Christianity have read something else CS Lewis wrote?
'Hence a man's reaction to monarchy is a kind of test. Monarchy can easily be 'debunked;' but watch the faces, mark the accents of the debunkers. These are the men whose tap-root in Eden has been cut: whom no rumour of the polyphony, the dance, can reach - men to whom pebbles laid in a row are more beautiful than an arch. Yet even if they desire equality, they cannot reach it. Where men are forbidden to honour a king they honour millionaires, athletes or film-stars instead: even famous prostitutes or gangsters. For spiritual nature, like bodily nature, will be served; deny it food and it will gobble poison.'
You can't be a Christian unless you're the subject of a monarch. This was always the traditional view - the King was merely part of the Great Chain of Being that had God at the top of it. Bear that in mind next time you hear some theotard claim that the founding fathers meant this to be a Christian nation. The 'tyranny' they were shaking off was God, not just George III.
Of course, to steal the best line from Crimson Tide, the US Army is there to protect democracy, not to practice it.
Posted by: Randy | July 9, 2008 12:16 PM
When I was in the Army, I got sidelong glances and such when people saw my dog tags, but luckily nothing like Hall had to go through.
This has long concerned me, for obvious reasons and I addressed it, in my small satirical way, a while back on my blog: http://deusexeverriculum.wordpress.com/2008/06/05/dear-us-joint-chiefs-of-staff/
As a bit of lagniappe, Gawd has also spoken out about the cracker issue: http://deusexeverriculum.wordpress.com/2008/07/09/dear-pontifex-maximus/
Posted by: Damian | July 9, 2008 12:18 PM
These kind of stories are regularly in the news, which is probably a good thing as it may mean that people are finding the courage to speak out.
There is certainly plenty of evidence that the US military is becoming a fundamentalist training camp, which is more than a little bit scary.
I don't know if anyone has taken a peek at the comments on the CNN blog, but there are the usual dullards there saying that the US is a Christian country, founded on Christian principles, etc, etc. One person even suggested that it was a restriction of religious freedoms to not allow military personnel to proselytize!
One thing that I did find interesting is that there are a number of people claiming that, not only are atheists, homosexuals, and women discriminated against, but Liberals, as well. If that is the case, it only adds weight to the charge that the military is slowly becoming dominated by conservative Christianity.
Posted by: Interrobang | July 9, 2008 12:23 PM
Think about this: People who are Christians FIRST don't have a President, they have a King.
Yep. And I've met people of whom I'd say they were Christians first and human beings second (or maybe somewhere down the line). To them, you were either Christian, or you were subhuman.
Now imagine those kind of people with nuclear weapons, and I think you've gone a long way toward explaining why some of them (Bush the Younger included, I think) are so willing and eager to use them. I mean, after all, using them would get those folks what they want, and it wouldn't be like they were actually killing real people or anything.
Add in the sort of American Exceptionalism that dictates that Americans are entitled to do whatever they want to get whatever they want, and the whole world is (observably) in a heap of trouble.
Posted by: SC | July 9, 2008 12:26 PM
Interesting to hear your thoughts on the book, which I haven't read. The annoying qualities of the book that you describe are far less prevalent in the film
http://constantinessword.com/
though not entirely nonexistent. It's hard to explain why, but the focus on Carroll's personal history in the film is generally a positive. I suspected after seeing it that I would have a response to the book that is similar to yours, though.
Posted by: kryptonic | July 9, 2008 12:33 PM
So boot camp is now jesus camp?
Posted by: Bill | July 9, 2008 12:38 PM
This is all the more disturbing when you consider how far we've come: imagine how Thomas Paine would be treated if he was serving TODAY?
Of course, it's not surprising that brain-washers would seek out converts in an organization that demands unquestioning obedience as an operational standard.
If there was a class-action suit by tax-payers to prevent this sort of violation of the 1st Amendment (spending our $ on religious evangelization), I'd be on-board in a heart-beat.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | July 9, 2008 12:38 PM
It becomes clear what it it, once you spell it the way our pResident pronounces it: War on Terra.
Posted by: terry | July 9, 2008 12:55 PM
things seem to have really changed since the mid-80's when I was in the US Army. I was (am, always have been as long as I can remember) atheist, had "Atheist" on my dog tags, everyone knew I was atheist and I never had a problem and this was when Reagan and Bush I were presidents. Guess I was lucky.
Posted by: Gilipollas Caraculo | July 9, 2008 12:56 PM
The fundies have been infiltrating the upper ranks of major US police forces. The upward bound can advance their careers with college degrees and advanced degrees -- from bible colleges. A masters in bible-babble counts the same as a masters in physics.
And, on the taxpayers dime, in uniform and on the clock, there's a whole lot of praying going on.
Guess what happens to those who do not submit.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 9, 2008 1:00 PM
In the UK back in the 80's there was an assistant Chief Constable of the Greater Manchester Police who went public claiming he was working for Jesus.
He was retired very quickly.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 9, 2008 1:01 PM
This is just too fucked up.
Posted by: CRM-114 | July 9, 2008 1:01 PM
Here's a frightening thought. The people who so badly want The Rapture to come in their own lifetime now have their hands on the nuclear weaponry to destroy the world in an effort to help things along and bring on the End Times.
These people would hate the prospect of dying before The Rapture comes. You know the saying, 'You make your luck'? Well, they've heard it too.
Posted by: Peter Ashby | July 9, 2008 1:01 PM
I bet Margaret Atwood is glad she is Canadian, one step away from her prophecy coming true. But fear if your religion is not The Real Version, there is no squabble so vicious as an internecine one. Look to the bloodbath that was your Civil War if you doubt it.
The real worry of course is that the UK's nukes are not independent, we need you guys to target them for us. Though we do still have command of the triggers. But wouldn't it be oh so convenient if it was us plucky Brits who just happened to have the first little nuclear 'accident'?
Posted by: Michael | July 9, 2008 1:02 PM
I have a nephew over there who is atheist. I have been wanting time to talk with him about his experiences, and whether he feels he is being singled out because he's out with it (it's written on his dogtags).
He very much wants to pursue public office, but even with a stellar military record and possible intelligence experience, he'd still have a hard time being elected. So very sad.
Posted by: Jose | July 9, 2008 1:05 PM
You’re all blind to the real truth! This is clear evidence that the bush administration is actually run by evil atheists bent on killing off as many fundamentalists as possible. The war in Iraq is just a clever way to accomplish this. They only want you to think the fighting a war there to secure oil money and huge government contracts for their buddies. The policy is called “sign up, ship out, get shot”. So far they’ve only managed to kill off around 4000 fundamentalists. That’s why they’re so keen to begin the invasions of Iran, North Korea, and dirty Australia.
Posted by: Amplexus | July 9, 2008 1:16 PM
Why are none of my fellow freethinkers upset with this quote:
This just show the ignorance of theists, christians in particular. Athiests/Freethinkers are rarely convinced of the non-existance of god. Many including myself fall into the godless category by default because of the following reasons in order of importance.
1. Lack of evidence for supernatural
2. Repeated dishonesty of theists(See: Lying for jesus, logical fallacies, strawman arguments.
3. The problems religion causes in our world
4. The type of charlatans that are major figures in the believing world(Robertson,Baker, Graham, Mother Teresa, Falwell, and all popes of history.)
If there was any supporting evidence for the supernatural it would be Atheists with the delusion. Honest atheists would automatically convert their thinking.
I've heard theologians lately say things like the existence of God isn't a scientific question.
But if there were any evidence the preachers of the world would hold it up high and there would only be one religion.
You can't tell me that religious people wouldn't accept evidence in support of their views just as easily as they discard evidence to maintain their delusion.
We freehinkers/atheists don't have convictions, and there is nothing to follow. The only thing that unites us is our shared disbelief. That quote from the ARMY spokesman is just another in the whole line of "Atheism is a religion" bullshit that we hear over and over. It is offensive to me.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 9, 2008 1:16 PM
"I have a nephew over there who is atheist." - Michael
(my emphasis)
Interesting phrase. Where is "over there"?
Posted by: clem | July 9, 2008 1:23 PM
Not new to me. I was in the Navy in the early eighties. On one occasion, a piece of classified equipment my division was responsible for was missing. They brought in the NIS to question us. When my turn came, the inquisitor asked one or two questions ("do you kn ow where it is?) then spent two hours ranting and foaming about how I should immediately embrace whatever ultrafundie cult he was owned by. I finally managed to bring the sermon to an end by telling him that if I believed a word of his nonsense, my only ethical choice would be satanism. Some months later, the Co of my division was on a fitness kick, decided I was too pudgy, and tried to force me to join some AA type scam to "pray the weight away". Fat, apparently, was the result of demonic influence, not the fact that the semiedible stuff in the galley was generally swimming in grease. Not doing so eventually got me discharged.
Posted by: Peter Mc | July 9, 2008 1:27 PM
Also, after he was nearly killed when his humvee was attacked, he says a fellow soldier asked him, "do you believe in Jesus now?"
Why, did Jesus fire the RPG?
Posted by: firemancarl | July 9, 2008 1:34 PM
When I was on active Navy duty, we didn't have that many god botherers about. I was surprised by that. Right after Adm. Borda blew his brains out, we were ordered to have a "moment of scilence" right after a chaplin spoke, one of the other guys their said "hey, they can't make me do that. They're enforcing religion!"
Of course, that was when Clinton was Pres.
Posted by: jcw | July 9, 2008 1:36 PM
"Whether these are just ghost stories or have any factual basis, who knows? But look at Jonestown Guiana, the World Trade center, the Inquisition, the Salem witch hunts, or Iraq and tell me that there is something fanatics won't do."
Posted by: raven | July 9, 2008 11:27 AM
Not to mention Mao, Stalin and the last 2 North Korean dictators.
Posted by: Ponzo | July 9, 2008 1:44 PM
When I was in the Army and stationed in Korea, we had to fill out forms with our religion on them. If I had been in another sort of unit, that could have caused me a lot of problems. Everyone I worked with knew I was an atheist, including my chain of command, yet that did not prevent me from getting promoted.
In the US, things were very different. I was shocked the first time the unit commander asked the chaplain to lead the entire brigade in prayer. It seemed that every other email I received (from Army email addresses) had some religious message tacked on to the end, and I got weekly or semi-weekly "faith" messages from the chaplain. There were other examples as well. That unit was so thoroughly politicized that I can easily imagine religion being used to deny someone a promotion.
Part of this problem is at the unit-level, but it seems far more widespread in units stationed in the US. The Eighth Army (in Korea) seemed much more open-minded; the Army in the US seems to exist to serve political ends.
Posted by: Longtime Lurker | July 9, 2008 1:45 PM
These struck me as particularly scary:
Bussey's teachings from the "God's Basic Training" Bible study guide he authored says US troops have "two primary responsibilities": "to praise those who do right" and "to punish those who do evil - "God's servant, an angel of wrath."
Uh, the only primary responsibility of the troops is to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic... bear true faith and allegiance to the same; and ...obey the orders of the President of the United States and the orders of the officers appointed over me, according to regulations and the Uniform Code of Military Justice."
Nothing about smiting heathens.
"Young recruits are under great pressure as they enter the military at their initial training gateways," the group has stated on its web site. "The demands of drill instructors push recruits and new cadets to the edge. This is why they are most open to the 'good news.'
This is classic cult "brainwashing"... break down the ego, and erect something else in its place.
Re Benjamin Franklin@26
These reports show how the chaplain corp has had vastly decreasing participation by Roman Catholic and mainline Protestent chaplains, and has become a stronghold of evangelicals who actively pursue conversion.
This practice of infiltrating churches and chaplaincies and turning them into fundamentalist hotbeds is commonly called "steeplejacking".
Sorry about the long post, I have two brothers in the army, and a brother-in-law in the air force. This kind of shit really has me in a snit.
Posted by: Jason | July 9, 2008 1:47 PM
Just because no one else has brought this up, yet:
Is anyone else bothered by the face that the scientists, engineers, and other experts that designed and built the military guns, tanks, planes, etc were probably atheists or nonbelievers (or at least not fundies)?
Posted by: Randy | July 9, 2008 1:47 PM
Peter @ #56:
And Jesus saith; "Consider thyself smitten, thou dirty f%cking hippie atheist!"
Posted by: uncle frogy | July 9, 2008 1:49 PM
I can not imagine a worse thing for unit cohesion or moral then religious sectarianism in the military. I would imagine that there are some who are in positions of authority who understand this just as I am sure that there are those members of the armed forces who are at odds with the basic nature with American democratic principles as set forth in The Constitution.
We must not forget that there are mercenary organizations headquartered here in the United States that are not bound by any such principles like Blackwater. The times are very interesting indeed and thinking about these issues disturbs my sleep patterns.
An additional thought
it is my opinion that the primary reason that the Old Soviet Unions failure and defeat in Afghanistan and its subsequent collapse was money and the fact that they could not raise any money in the international credit market.
We are all well aware of our involvement in a very similar situation in the same area. I would say that it is even worse involving not just a poor undeveloped country but an important one to world trade and its important neighbors. The main difference being that we so far have been able to borrow the vast amounts of money needed to pay for the same kind of stupid mistake.
I doubt that we can keep doing that indefinably things just do not go up forever.
dark days ahead? the dark question is how far ahead and how dark?
shit! tell me it is going to be OK
Posted by: FastLane | July 9, 2008 1:50 PM
It's the iron chariots. Don't you people read the old testament? =PJeremy is stationed not far from here, and this has been in the news a few times already. CNN, I think, has carried the story before, and I don't see any new information in this one. I wonder if they are recycling some stories to keep the controversy alive, as it were.
Also, how do you think the fundie nutjobs would have reacted if after a similar mortar attack, th atheist replied with 'where's your jeezus now?'
Posted by: Amplexus | July 9, 2008 1:52 PM
I disagree, a moment of silence is as secular as it gets. I think that it's a good thing for people to have a moment of clarity and unity after something really bad happens.
Organized prayer: NO.
Silence: Okay
Unless some psychologist is able to prove to some standard that a moment of silence is objectively harmful then okay speak up i guess.
I get really mad at organizations like American Atheists that combats stupid things like "in god we trust" or "Under god" and other inane targets of ire from a legal angle.
We need to be super tactical at the moment and pick our battles well if we want to win.
That fact is we have churches openly preaching politics from the pulpit. And they keep their tax exempt status. We also have proselytizing in the military. We also have people with their finger on the button that think Nuclear bombs could bring on the greatest thing that will ever happen.
That is what we need to fight.
Posted by: aleph1=c | July 9, 2008 2:02 PM
What kind of dog tags did Randy (#38) have? The big, oversized novelty check kind? The dog tags I had simply said "no r pref" and it was in such small letters that no one else could ever read it unless I was dead or having gay sex with a fellow shipmate. The irony was that, back then, I did have a religious preference. I just didn't think it was anyone's fucking business.
I havd the same experience as T.A.C. (#27). The 5 years I was in the U.S. Navy, during the Reagan years, I can't remember anyone ever mentioning religion at all except to announce when a chapel meeting was starting (Sunday morning). For those of us who didn't go, which is at least 90%, we sat around and played cards or whatever. Good times!
Posted by: False Prophet | July 9, 2008 2:04 PM
Walton @22,
Seeing as the British military is okay with Satanists now, I doubt atheists would be an issue for them. ;-)
Posted by: Starbuck | July 9, 2008 2:07 PM
I thought this was going to be another "Christian/BAD and athiest/GOOD" post by Mr. PZ.
But after reading it, I have to agree with him. There is no good reason the deny a man promotions because of his beliefs. If it was based on that alone, that was clearly wrong. And If you are seeing war mongering "Christians" (and I don't mean soldiers, I mean the people that are in leadership) be very wary of them. They are making a huge mistake if they are a true Christian. An even bigger mistake if they aren't, because then they are just plain deluded into thinking they are doing violence in the name of God. Which is never right. God would never command a Christian to murder for the greater good. I don't care what anyone claims. They are just plain deluded...
Which is very dangerous..
I am worried about that kind of thing as well... And I am a Christian!
Posted by: False Prophet | July 9, 2008 2:13 PM
uncle frogy @63,
I wish I could tell you it would be okay, but I read Blackwater: The Rise of the World's Most Powerful Mercenary Army by Jeremy Scahill. Blackwater's upper management and owners have close ties to the religious right, and BW and its competitors are slowly being given security and policing tasks once done by the military or other federal agencies. After all, this sort of crap in the government-funded military can be taken to court. But in a privately-owned corporation?
Posted by: Randy | July 9, 2008 2:14 PM
Aleph @ #66:
I had the same size tags as everyone else, but from time to time someone would get a close look at them; i.e. at the hospital because I also had an allergy tag.
Far be it for me to disparage the Navy, but I guess if something was smaller than a destroyer, it just didn't register.
Mostly, no one mentioned religion when I was in either, (joined 4 weeks before invasion of Kuwait - how's that for timing?), but I remember in basic that Sundays we could go to church or clean the barracks.
Posted by: Jose | July 9, 2008 2:15 PM
@False Prophet
There a difference between satanists and atheists? You need to go home and watch the 700 Club right now.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 9, 2008 2:16 PM
You've obviously never read the Bible, Starbuck.
Posted by: secularguy | July 9, 2008 2:16 PM
Guy in video said, "a couple hundred kids talking on cell phones" ...
You have children in the military in the U.S.??? :scaredsmiley:
Posted by: J | July 9, 2008 2:22 PM
Shhhhh! If we all sneak off to another thread, maybe Starbuck won't notice...
Posted by: Grammar RWA | July 9, 2008 2:24 PM
Jata, that'd be the MRFF.
Posted by: Michael | July 9, 2008 2:31 PM
Also, after he was nearly killed when his humvee was attacked, he says a fellow soldier asked him, "do you believe in Jesus now?"
A friend of mine who fought in the first Gulf War back in the 90s used to witness to other soldiers in the military. Even though some disagreed with him and some others agreed, they didn't think it was persecution as this particular atheist soldier did. There is a difference between one's personal belief and the freedom to express that belief, than an organization like the military service promoting a certain type of belief. Also, in a very dangerous job which has many deaths when performed, the thought of dying generally results in people getting more religious. It's a very common pattern.
So if the atheist soldier thinks he's going to get respect by his fellow soldiers who are theists by suing the government he is wrong. The two parties can disagree, if he wants to promote atheism to the other soldiers he could and the other way around as well. However, when a job needs to be done, in this case they are in a combat zone and instead of securing the area, they decide to talk about religion, then that would be wrong unless it's a very extreme circumstance. He would have a case there. But if they are out of the combat zone, deep issues like religion could be brought up.
Posted by: j | July 9, 2008 2:40 PM
Saw your webpage Michael. You're a moron. That is all...
Posted by: Hap | July 9, 2008 2:57 PM
Choosing soldiers based on religious belief seems like a bad idea - knowing what you are doing rather than knowing what your boss wants to hear would seem to be a good idea when you run an army. Lots of weapons plus incompetents holding the keys = very bad things.
At best, if such internal selection techniques continue, the US will get its butt kicked in whatever wars it engages in - Saddam Hussein and Hitler would seem to be two examples of people who confused their egos with actual military knowledge, for which their nations (and lots of other people) paid a heavy price. At worst, the world will get to participate in population control the hard way.
Oh, and there is the pesky First Amendment - making military advancement contingent on religious belief would seem to violate even the weaker "establishment of religion" clause. I know that the current Chief Executive hasn't much tolerance for his oath of office, but someone else might remember what it's for.
I may be naive, but I had figured that for most of US history, religious people did not attempt direct control of government. There were good reasons to keep control of religion and government separate - lots of people came to the US because practicing their beliefs would get them imprisoned or killed, and because the people running European governments assumed that their religious beliefs and arrogance constituted absolute truth (which is hard to distinguish from them believing themselves gods). If you think you have absolute truth, and decide that everyone else needs to be like you, you need to read some history to realize what happens because of people like you, or what simply happens to people like you (hint: nothing good, though you may get to find out if your beliefs are true a little sooner than you had planned).
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | July 9, 2008 3:08 PM
This just in: Choosing soldiers based on sexual orientation is a bad idea, too. As if we didn't know that already.
Also, nevermind the Lord, we should be more careful about letting the president (any president, that is, not just the current crazy one) get his hands on that sword.
(Hap, none of this is intended as a retort to you, of course; you just gave me a decent place to put these links.)
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