…and this is a 
It is finished.
I wonder how many of our Catholic friends have heard of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215? This is the event where many of their important dogmas were codified, including the ideas of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, that the Eucharist was the sacrament that only properly ordained priests of the Catholic church could give, and that the Jews were a pariah people, who could hold no public office, had to pay a special Jew tax for their right to exist, and were required to wear special clothing to distinguish them from Christians. The yellow badge marking the Juden was not an invention of the Nazis, but a decree by faithful Catholics in the Middle Ages. That's an interesting juxtaposition, that a symbol of Christian exceptionalism was formalized at the same time that they formally decreed the Jews to be inferior, and a target of hatred.
That combination was useful, too. Declare something cheap, disposable, and common to be imbued with magic by the words of a priest, and the trivial becomes a powerful token to inflame the mob — why, all you have to do is declare a bit of bread to be the most powerful and desirable object in the world, and even if it isn't, you can pretend that the evil other is scheming to deprive the faithful of it. Now you could invent stories of Jews and witches taking the communion host to torture, to make Jesus suffer even more, and good Catholics would of course rise in horror to defend their salvation. None of the stories were true, of course — Jews and infidels see no power at all in those little crackers, and the idea that they were obsessing over obtaining a non-sacred, powerless, pointless relic is ludicrous — but heck, it's a cheap excuse to make accusations illustrated by cheesy woodcuts of hook-nosed Jews hammering nails into communion wafers and lurid tales of blood-spurting crackers and hosts that pulsed like and beating heart, and thereby providing a pretext to encourage massacres.
The first recorded accusation was made in 1243 at Berlitz, near Berlin. As a consequence all the Jews of Berlitz were burned on the spot, which was subsequently called Judenberg. Another famous case that took place in 1290, in Paris, was commemorated in the Church of the Rue des Billettes and in a local confraternity. In 1370 in Brussels, the charge of host desecration, long celebrated in a special fest and depicted in artistic relics in the Church of St. Gudule, led to the extermination of the Jews of the city. The case of 1337, at Deggendorf, still celebrated locally as "Deggendorf Gnad", led to a series of massacres across the region. In 1510, at Knoblauch, near Berlin, 38 Jews were executed and more expelled from Brandenburg. The alleged host desecration in 1410, at Segovia, was said to have brought about an earthquake, and as a result, the local synagogue was confiscated and leading Jews were executed; the event continues to be celebrated as a local feast of Corpus Christi. Similar accusations, resulting in extensive persecution of Jews, were brought forward in 1294, at Laa, Austria; 1298, at Röttingen, near Würzburg, and at Korneuburg, near Vienna; 1299, at Ratisbon; 1306, at St. Pölten; 1325, at Cracow; 1330, at Güstrow; 1338, at Pulkau; 1388, at Prague; 1399, at Posen; 1401, at Glogau; 1420, at Ems; 1453, at Breslau; 1478, at Passau; 1492, at Sternberg, in Mecklenburg-Schwerin; 1514, at Mittelberg, in Alsace; 1558, at Sochaczew, in Poland. The last Jew burned for stealing a host died in 1631, according to Jacques Basnage, quoting from Manasseh b. Israel. Casimir IV. of Poland (1447).
That is the true power of the cracker, this silly symbol of superstition. Fortunately, Catholicism has mellowed with age — the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry was a whole 70 years ago, after all — but the sentiment still lingers. Catholicism has been actively poisoning the minds of its practitioners with the most amazing bullshit for years, and until recently, I had no idea that a significant number of people actually believed this nonsense, or that the hatred was still simmering there, waiting for an opportunity to rise up in misplaced defense of absurdity.
All of the regular readers have seen it — thousands of mindless comments by Catholics, demanding that no harm come to a cracker. My email is melting down with swarms of insults, threats, pleas, and promises of prayers because I
Mark Sutton is representative of the majority of my email. No threats, at least, but instead he simply takes for granted an astonishing piece of insanity.
Professor Myers,
I was saddened to hear of your plans to harm our Lord Jesus Christ.
It obviously isn't the first time and it won't be the last.
I know you do not believe, but what if it truly is Jesus that you are attempting to hurt?
You are in my prayers.
You would not believe how many people are writing to me, insisting that these horrible little crackers (they look like flattened bits of styrofoam) are literally pieces of their god, and that this omnipotent being who created the universe can actually be seriously harmed by some third-rate liberal intellectual at a third-rate university (the diminution of my vast powers is also a common theme).
Jim Nicholson cranks up the crazy even more. Not many accused me of being a freemason — I've got lots that call me a Jew, which is illuminating given the history of this issue — and I cringe at the thought of a circumcised heart. But yeah, this kind of angry rant is fairly common, too.
You must be the devil himself as even he knows the power in the Holy Eucharist (don't you dare disparage the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by calling Him Who died for you a cracker!). You must be a freemason, or just a very sick man who needs healing and believe me, I will pray for your conversion. Pray you live to see that day so you can ask Him to forgive you and your uncircumcised heart. Just the mere thought of desecrating the Holy Eucharist is enough to get one into hell, but, maybe that is, for now, the horrible place you are aiming for. I dare you to read about Our Lady of Fatima and the accounts of hell as the three children saw, then, maybe you will change you sick mind. God forgive you. However, it was great that you got many people praying for your conversion since you showed the world how sick you are, and maybe God will convert your hard heart. Pity you. From a lay evangelist who prays for you and the rest of this sick world of secular humanists.
Another common theme has been the attempt to turn away the desecration of a Catholic symbol into the desecration of an Islamic symbol. Obviously, it's not desecration they find disagreeable — it's the idea that someone would offend their weird sectarian sensibilities. Here's one from Jack Isaacks that fits the mold.
Dear Professor Meyers,
If you REALLY want to do a courageous, revolutionary act, defecate publicly on a copy of the Quran.
Or do you have the cojones?
Christians won't attack you for desecrating a host, but will those wonderful cuddly peace-loving Muslims be as forbearing if you used their book for a toilet?
Well, how brave are you?
Yeah, right. Catholics won't attack me, but Muslims will. Never mind that the Catholic League demands that I be fired, thousands of Catholics write to me demanding I be kicked out of the university immediately, and that they send me death threats, both the explicit kind and the vaguely menacing kind. Let's not forget Webster Cook, who started this all by simply walking back to his seat with a cracker, and now faces censure and possible expulsion from his university. Oh, those Catholics sure are forbearing and tolerant.
And since I mentioned yesterday that I was taking my oldest son to the movies, these good Catholics have leapt to the opportunity. Since I'm not demonstrating any fear over their threats against me, well hey, let's try a new target! KJ Atkins of Bellarmine University thinks cowardly warnings against my family might be effective.
You fool, the vengeance for your sacrilege will not be . exhausted against you, but it will be carried out on your child. Wait and see.
Oh, I'm sorry, KJ. I'm only impressed by significant material concerns, and yours and other slanders against my family (I'm looking at you, Miki Tracy, the despicable person who thinks making up lies about my father might be persuasive) are not going to convince me of anything other than that religion breeds the most disgustingly vile haters in our country, and that Catholicism fits right in with the rest. I will note, however, that since Bill Donohue tried to get CAIR to join him in his crusade, I have gotten no email from outraged Muslims, over a span of time in which I've received thousands of Catholic hate mail messages.
If you want to see the deep danger of religion, you have to read this comment from Isaac.
As a Christian it is an insult for anyone to call my beliefs stupid shit. I have respected every religion and every idea for years.
Ah, what a beautiful illustration of the complete open mind — utterly undiscriminating, lacking any criteria for acceptance, simply blissfully and uncritically according every idea his full respect. Although, of course, it's also a lie: Isaac does not regard every idea as equally deserving, since he clearly considers the atheist idea that the sacraments of his faith are empty foolishness to be an outrage. Rather, what he loves is the idea that everyone else must respect his beliefs, no matter what they are, and that any disagreement is an insult. This is exactly the kind of uncritical, unskeptical, nonjudgmental idiocy all religions seek to promulgate, because they all know that if we tore off the blinders of tradition and artificiality and mindless etiquette, we'd see right through their lies. Respect every idea! Especially mine! And if you find the idea that this cracker is a god stupid, why, you must be disrespectful and no gentleman!
For even deeper inanity, let's not forget the Catholic blogs! We're talking some serious derangement there: look at Mark Shea's reaction.
I won't mince words. Myers is an evil man. And as evil men, particularly evil intellectuals, tend to be, he is also a mad man as are most of his acolytes and followers.
Myers and Co. are enmeshed in these lies because they have chosen evil. It is evil--archetypally evil--to desecrate the Eucharist. It's the sort of stuff archetypal bad guys in the movies do. It's completely unnecessary gratuitous evil.
To the Mark Shea's of the world, I would say…it's just a cracker.
I think if I were truly evil, I would have to demand that all of my acolytes be celibate, but would turn a blind eye to any sexual depravities they might commit. If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I'd drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue. If I wanted to commit world-class evil, I'd undermine efforts at family planning by the poor, especially if I could simultaneously enable the spread of deadly diseases. And if I wanted to be so evil that I would commit a devastating crime against the whole of the human race, twisting the minds of children into ignorance and hatred, I would be promoting the indoctrination of religion in children's upbringing, and fomenting hatred against anyone who dared speak out in defiance.
I'm sorry to say that I only aspire to be a teeny-tiny bit evil, and my target is a handful of virtually inedible crackers in my possession. It's not much, and all I can say in my defense is…it's a start. A very small start. I'm going to need lots and lots of people to rise up and follow suit, subjecting old, dishonest institutions of hardened dogma to our chief weapon of ridicule and deris…our two weapons of ridicule, derision and laughter…no, three weapons of ridicule, derision, laughter, and skeptici…oh, never mind. You know what I mean. Get to work.
OK, time for the anticlimax. I know some of you have proposed intricate plans for how to do horrible things to these crackers, but I repeat…it's just a cracker. I wasn't going to make any major investment of time, money, or effort in treating these dabs of unpleasantness as they deserve, because all they deserve is casual disposal. However, inspired by an old woodcut of Jews stabbing the host, I thought of a simple, quick thing to do: I pierced it with a rusty nail (I hope Jesus's tetanus shots are up to date). And then I simply threw it in the trash, followed by the classic, decorative items of trash cans everywhere, old coffeegrounds and a banana peel. My apologies to those who hoped for more, but the worst I can do is show my unconcerned contempt.
By the way, I didn't want to single out just the cracker, so I nailed it to a few ripped-out pages from the Qur'an and The God Delusion. They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity's knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind.
Politics
Comments
Posted by: Maria | July 24, 2008 2:03 PM
May God have mercy on your soul.
Posted by: H.H. | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
It is done.
Posted by: FormerMilitary | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
Well done.
Posted by: Tucker | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
Well this is going to be epic.
Posted by: Anthony | July 24, 2008 2:06 PM
PZ: My gin and tonic will be hoisted up in your name tonight.
Posted by: JSorrell | July 24, 2008 2:08 PM
Well, if you thought the deluge of email was bad now! :)
Thanks for pointing out that nothing should be held sacred.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 24, 2008 2:08 PM
Requiescat in pace, Crustum Christi.
Posted by: Brian | July 24, 2008 2:09 PM
Well said PZ. Wish I could think of something more to add.
Brian
Posted by: Deepsix | July 24, 2008 2:09 PM
Let the games begin!!
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:09 PM
Hahah... I hope Seed's servers are ready for the influx of crazy that this post will bring.
Posted by: Mystic Olly | July 24, 2008 2:10 PM
And yet I fail to see the remains of last nights spaghetti bolognese. Do you cower in fear of His Noodley Appendage?
I think we should be told . . .
Posted by: AJ Milne | July 24, 2008 2:10 PM
Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Very nice. This did not disappoint.
A response to a post in a previous thread, carried forward (since, y'know, I'm sure this'll be going on for a bit, anyway)...
I've been thinking about this for awhile now. I originally agreed with those saying that PZ is needlessly provoking the religious, but their batshit crazy responses tell me it isn't so needless.
Yep. Or sorta. I'd never have gone as far as 'needlessly provoking', but I sure did see it as pretty trivial, initially.
And I still do. But only in the one sense. More precisely, I was never much for or agin' it, initially. I mean, as I understood it, it started out as a snarky (and, in context, entirely appropriately snarky) riposte to the sheer nuttiness of what happened at UCF anyway. I don't think any of us even figure he even meant it terribly seriously, at first. I mean, seriously, why would anyone bother, either way? And I think if he'd actually done it two weeks ago, my reaction woulda been: oh, okay... an odd thing to do... and... ummm... why, seriously? I'm still trying to wrap my head 'round the fact that the folk taking Donohue's bait haven't thought about that, more. I mean honestly, do you really think Donohue even thought PZ meant it that seriously? Or that Donohue even cared if he did? His reaction was pure political opportunism. Somethin' he figured he could make some hay with.
But making that hay, it leads places, whether he and his followers like it or not. And the sheer lunacy of those objecting shifts things, oddly. I mean, you say you're going to do something that should be so trivially silly, and all of a sudden, there's this windbag demagogue getting all red-faced, going on and on about what a horror this is, working on whipping up the outrage, and oh my, but people are actually falling for it. And there are people trying to get people fired, and the trolls are winding up and sockpuppeting the hell out of this place, there's nuts making threats and getting their wife fired, and you get to thinking: well, y'know, yeah, okay, maybe you should do that cracker thing. Sure it's silly, sure it's trivial, but, strangely enough, it does prove a modestly significant point, in this now truly bizarre context. Which is that pushy, arrogant gasbags like Donohue and the loud but not terribly bright folk he's managed to mobilize do not get to call the shots--not here, not anywhere. They don't get to demand anything, let alone respect, from anyone else, not with an attitude like that. Death threats, huh? Demands folk be fired, huh? Endless attempts, in fact, to demand punishment and suffering for what in the end is mere expression of an opinion they don't happen to like--and yes, folks, not that it's even entirely relevant, but I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it is, all their mumbo jumbo and handwaving about mystical rites and transubtantiation notwithstanding. Same as it's always been, same old excuse for any extremism they might want it to justify.
And this is how they presume to command 'respect', is it? And is this to be the way of things: the gasbags who threaten most and who scream 'bigotry' loudest gets to say what is and what is acceptable mockery of their particular irrationality of choice? What next, will we begin prosecuting blasphemy in the west again, jail those who dare to fail to show proper respect for the currently dominant faith?
So, okay, if they want to be like that about it, I'm with him all the way. And the cracker's toast. Sure it might still seem sorta a silly thing to do, on the face of it. But it's a madness with a certain method after all.
(And the banana peel sure is a nice touch.)
Posted by: Kobra | July 24, 2008 2:10 PM
The secret addition was a few papers from the God Delusion?
Very appropriate! I say this without an ounce of sarcasm, by the way.
Posted by: clinteas | July 24, 2008 2:11 PM
PZ,you should eat your bananas before they turn brown.
Posted by: drake33 | July 24, 2008 2:11 PM
+1 to PZ Myers.
Posted by: Katharine | July 24, 2008 2:11 PM
Well said, PZ.
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 2:11 PM
I can't wait to hear what Richard Dawkins thinks of this. :)
Also, don't you still have a whole bunch of other crackers? What're you gonna do with them?
Posted by: Analiese | July 24, 2008 2:12 PM
Shit, pz, I hope you've got a lid on that garbage lest the cracker rise again! Great post. Ahhhhh, men....
Posted by: Alan | July 24, 2008 2:12 PM
May the Hand of God bless you as you deserve.
Posted by: Jim RL | July 24, 2008 2:13 PM
I don't think anything is done at this point. I think the shitstorm is just about to start. You should really have a composting bin for all of that organic matter. Ashes to ashes and all that.
Posted by: Deepsix | July 24, 2008 2:13 PM
Oh, and PZ, don't close this thread. Let's see just how high this sucker will go.
Posted by: Steve | July 24, 2008 2:13 PM
Nothing Sacred - reminds me of a Zen story...Bodhidharma telling the pissed off Emperor of China that "Nothing is holy"... Then there is the old:"If you meet the Buddha, Kill him" Tossing a wooden Buddha on the fire etc... all to prove that nothing should be held above "reality". Why can't we have more "religions" like that? Or better yet, none at all...
Posted by: jb | July 24, 2008 2:13 PM
You don't compost your banana peels and coffee grounds? You ARE evil.....
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 2:14 PM
Now we wait for the lying press release from Bill Donohue and the deranged Catholic hordes that follow.
Good work, PZ. You used it to make a good point: No cheap, little material object should be considered sacred. Adding the pages from the "God Delusion" was a good move.
Posted by: Ranson | July 24, 2008 2:14 PM
Hmm. No spurting blood? Maybe the fruit peel will lose it's browning in a spontaneous healing miracle.
Posted by: Luke O'Dell | July 24, 2008 2:14 PM
The God Delusion? I was on the right lines with my Origin of Species prediction, then. Nice job, PZ.
Posted by: Kobra | July 24, 2008 2:14 PM
http://www.kobrascorner.com/opine/nothing-is-sacred.php
I wrote this the other day, and because of this I greatly approve of including pages of The God Delusion. I'm sure even Prof. Dawkins will approve of the gesture (especially since PZ has already read it and there's no point in keeping it intact, right?).
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 2:14 PM
Nice to see that you threw in some pages from The God Delusion. I know it's just a book, like the Qur'an, but it's still an excellent way to demonstrate that your goal is to show that nothing is, or should be, "sacred", and not simply to piss off some extremists (although I'm sure they'll find a way to get worked up just the same).
Posted by: The Science Pundit | July 24, 2008 2:15 PM
The page from The God Delusion proves to us that you are not a loyal member of the Church of Dawkinity! I immediately move for your excommunication!!!
Posted by: Deepsix | July 24, 2008 2:15 PM
Cheeses Christ, PZ, you've already bogged down the server.
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 2:15 PM
Now we wait for the lying press release from Bill Donohue and the deranged Catholic hordes that follow.
Good work, PZ. You used it to make a good point: No cheap, little material object should be considered sacred. Adding the pages from the "God Delusion" was a good move.
Posted by: PeteC | July 24, 2008 2:15 PM
Well done; the "it is finished" is a nice touch too.
But.. don't they have recycling in Morris? Paper and food waste in the trash? That's sacrilege here in the Bay Area...
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 2:15 PM
Hopefully after the howls of outrage from the godbots subside we'll see no more fourteen hundred reply threads!
Anyway, well done PZ...the picture just shows it's a "fracking" nailed cracker and some paper.
oh, and Maria (#1): There are no gods to have mercy on non-existent souls. Just thought you might like to know as you seem to be stuck in la-la land.
Martin
Posted by: Rich Stage | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
Great job, PZ. I was worried that you might get carried away, but you have done exactly what was needed to be done.
Posted by: SC | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
How fitting.
Posted by: Steve | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
Brillant PZ. Loved every word of it. You have my support.
Posted by: Draconiz | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
+1 to PZ!
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
Hopefully after the howls of outrage from the godbots subside we'll see no more fourteen hundred reply threads!
Anyway, well done PZ...the picture just shows it's a "fracking" nailed cracker and some paper.
oh, and Maria (#1): There are no gods to have mercy on non-existent souls. Just thought you might like to know as you seem to be stuck in la-la land.
Martin
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
It is easy to see the titles of the books, but where is the proof that is a consecrated host? I think it is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt for noteriety. Weak.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
We wait with bated breath to discover what trepid outrage the god-botherers will cast down upon you.
What a hollow god they serve! How delicious a treatment of their sacred relics!
Posted by: Potter | July 24, 2008 2:17 PM
You, sir, handled this perfectly! Bravo!!
Posted by: David Wegehaupt | July 24, 2008 2:17 PM
Well done... I'm glad this ordeal is over
*ignores the following 2000 comments about the damn cracker*
Posted by: Robin | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
Brilliant. This is the first blog post I have literally applauded.
Posted by: freelunch | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
I wonder whether that Louisville college ever considered calling itself Torquemada University. Bellarmine would be unknown except for his treatment of Galileo. Torquemada was famous.
Posted by: Jim RL | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
TG, why do you doubt it is a consecrated host? Do you doubt his ability to get one? Do you doubt his willingness to desecrate one? You're grasping at straws.
Posted by: Hessenroots | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
And it is done. Couple thousand more comments and the troll-fest will come to a close.
I'm quite sure it's unintentional but the banana peel (you know, the atheists worst nightmare!) is a wonderful bit of irony to top it off. ;P
Posted by: dave | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
Yay! Splendidly anticlimactic, nicely judged. Just a bit unsure about the rusty nail, a hint of Voodoo tetanus going on there. Could be uncomfortable for those who believe in magic....
And sad to see the desecration of books, which are all special, but fair's fair.
Posted by: mk | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
The God Delusion, too. Brilliant!
Posted by: Dylan Dog | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
Great article PZ!
Posted by: AndrewG | July 24, 2008 2:19 PM
Thank you PZ for posting this, it is needed.
Faith inebriated, lunatics, ridiculed and mocked me as a teenager for daring to question God' existence. For several years they wasted my time and forced me to ingest prodigious fables of super heroes. I look forward to the response or rather the maunderings, of His Excellence, the CEO of the Roman Catholic Church when this news reaches him. His mental gymnastics is a treat and I have little doubt that he and his lieutenants will have no difficulty in further embarrassing themselves in the eyes of the civilized world.
Faithaholics have enjoyed power far too long and have abused it repeatedly yet they continue to demand respect. Fuck their feelings and fuck their intellectually lazy minds. I celebrate this occasion with all sane people around the planet. Screw all gods especially the sketsophrenic trio, Jesus, his Daddy and Casper from the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa.
Peace everyone, please. Man created God and no amount of violence will change that.
Andrew
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 2:19 PM
I wonder if PZ's gonna be woken up in the middle of the night by the sound of some Catholic digging through his trash trying to "rescue" the cracker.
Seriously, this is awesome entertainment.
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 24, 2008 2:19 PM
That Darwin and his time machine; always causing trouble.Posted by: Josh West | July 24, 2008 2:19 PM
#39 It is easy to see the titles of the books, but where is the proof that is a consecrated host? I think it is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt for noteriety. Weak.
That's pretty much the point. 'Consecration' is meaningless drivel. Not sacred.
Bravo PZ, nice ending to this mess.
Posted by: freelunch | July 24, 2008 2:19 PM
I wonder whether that Louisville college ever considered calling itself Torquemada University. Bellarmine would be unknown except for his treatment of Galileo. Torquemada was famous.
Posted by: Zeno | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Dawkins will undoubtedly smite you in his terrible wrath!
But thank God that's over!
(I don't really mean the "thank God" part, of course. It's just an expression.)
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Oh brilliant. Simply brilliant.
The God Delusional is a nice touch. The only thing I might have added is a page from Origins.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Good going! Justice has been done. The text's a bit too long for me to read right now so I'll be sure to read it later in depth!!! I skimmed through it and saw the mighty picture.
Unfortunately I'm sad you didn't try to make a cross out of popsicle sticks. Now THAT would've been funny.
Wait uh... w...what's the brown stuff? O_o
...coffee? PHEW
Posted by: Paul W. | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
I'm sure that will be forthcoming, just as soon as somebody provides PZ with evidence that his consecrated host was transubstantiated into the Body of the Living God.
Why does one matter without the other?
Posted by: Richard Wolford | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Beautiful, and point well taken. I would have longed for some pages of On the Origins of Species in there as well, but The God Delusion was likely more fitting, so again, beautiful.
Posted by: Quinn Martindale | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Meh...
Posted by: E.V. | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Oh no, the hand-wringing has begun.
Posted by: Greta Christina | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Father, into Your hands I commend my crumbs.
And I never again want to hear about sophisticated modern theology, and how nobody takes that magical- thinking stuff seriously anymore.
Posted by: GeoffI | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
PZ,
I hope you saved that piece of art you have created. You could sell it on eBay and give the money to a pro-science charity.
Posted by: Brian W. | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
ripping a few pages out of those books is ok, as long as the aren't completely ruined. I hate to see ANY book destroyed.
Posted by: Guido | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
Great.
Excellent.
Now, all they have to do is pray. Right? The Lord listens to them
Right?
Come on, people, stop writing e-mails. Have TRUE faith.
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
"TG, why do you doubt it is a consecrated host? Do you doubt his ability to get one? Do you doubt his willingness to desecrate one? You're grasping at straws."
I am a man of science. I want proof, not claims based on authority.
Posted by: bad Jim | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
Holey crackers!
Posted by: SteadyEddy | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
Excellent write-up as always PZ! There are some un-rational people who might accuse you of copying something that has already been done, but I can think of nothing more fitting than to nail that ort of stale tasteless bread to some processed wood fiber. Well done PZ!
Posted by: F. Jardim | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
Amazing writing in your prelude to the main event. A+ as far as I am concerned.
As for the festivities themselves, I liked the casual utilitarianism of the desecration. Adding a page from The god Delusion was also thoughtful and helps showing that the truly unbiased, rational mind doesn't revere icons, even if their meaning agrees with their own conclusions. I think a page from 'Origin of the Species' would have been FAr more effective in rubbing on the faces of fundies how we do not hold Evolution or science as a religion.
Posted by: Physicalist | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
He desecrated The God Delusion??? Forget excommunication; BURN HIM!!!!!
Posted by: Jon | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
Nice touch there with the God Delusion. That should sufficiently perplex them.
It won't, of course.
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
@TG: I seem to recall others asking how to prove it's consecrated, and you refuse to say how.
PZ, I'm a little disappointed in what you did. I think you gave too much consideration. IMHO, you should've forgone the nail and just tossed it all in the garbage.
Posted by: Rich Stage | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
Can't you hear the little jeebus cracker screaming?
That's the giveaway there, innit?
Posted by: Josh West | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
#39 It is easy to see the titles of the books, but where is the proof that is a consecrated host? I think it is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt for noteriety. Weak.
That's pretty much the point. 'Consecration' is meaningless drivel. Not sacred.
Bravo PZ, nice ending to this mess.
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
TG sez:
It is easy to see the titles of the books, but where is the proof that is a consecrated host? I think it is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt for noteriety. Weak.
Tell you what, TG. If you can pick a consecrated host out of a lineup of unconsecrated ones, I'll concede that your question is relevant, and I'll ask PZ to provide proof of consecration. Sound fair?
Posted by: Zeno | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
Dawkins will undoubtedly smite you in his terrible wrath!
But thank God that's over!
(I don't really mean the "thank God" part, of course. It's just an expression.)
Posted by: Quinn Martindale | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
It's weird, but the destroying of books disturbs me regardless of their sacred status.
Posted by: Milo Johnson | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
Now if we could just make the rest of the religious crackers in the country go away...
Posted by: Philboid | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
PZ, you nailed it.
Posted by: BluesBassist | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
Bravo! Not bad for a "third rate" intellectual.
Posted by: Kawa | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
* applauds *
Posted by: Shygetz | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
While it does kinda bother me that you destroyed two perfectly servicable books instead of giving them to people who could read them (not sacreligious, just not cool) I found the conclusion (if it truly is such) to be suitably anti-climactic, which is exactly what the disposal of a cracker should be.
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
TG #39:
Can't you see the blood and ichor oozing from the stabbed host?
Wait...
That's because there's no difference between a fracking cracker and a consecrated host. (mumble mumble Hoc est corpus christi mumble mumble [nice ass on that choirboy] mumble mumble)
Why don't you use your amazing christo-powers to discern the cracker's consecrated nature?
Martin
Posted by: John C. Randolph | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
PZ,
This is one of the finer essays you've written. Thanks for the history lesson, and well done.
-jcr
Posted by: Slen | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
stupid simple cracker
May is decompose like the trash it is.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
...Wait a sec guys. Where's the blood?! I thought they said there was a guy that had a flood of blood, and that jews had stains of blood coming out of there! HEY!
Could it be that it's... it's just a tasteless sheet of paper? Oh no.
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
I wonder if PZ's gonna be woken up in the middle of the night by the sound of some Catholic digging through his trash trying to "rescue" the cracker.
Seriously, this is awesome entertainment.
Posted by: Jack of Knives | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
The picture makes it a bit grittier than it should seem, but...
I liked the conclusion best. It's a good take home message.
Posted by: God | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
God damn it, PZ. Now I have to start the universe all over again.
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
Nice post. I really liked your last paragraph.
Posted by: blf | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
I suspect Teh Big Oxidized Spike is deeply offended at this disgraceful treatment of a rusty nail, and its followers will send a congregration of angry screws after you. Pay attention as to whether they are normal, Phillips, Robinson, of other types of screws, this is a matter of great division in Spikemythical, with much flaking of the rust.
Posted by: Jesus, called Christ | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
As the dead Jew that Catholics claim to worship, I would just like to say that I entirely approve.
Posted by: Slinky | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
Excellent, i loved the inclusion of the god delusion pages, i think they helped prove a point.
Posted by: Kobra | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
PZ, you have a typo!
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
GULP - The God Delusion...in the trash?!
You my friend, have Large Brass Balls.
You may need a wheelbarrow to carry those in...
(Yes - a Bill Hicks reference)
Wow.
I stand here shaken (not stirred)
Bravo, PZ, Bravo!
Posted by: F. Jardim | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Amazing writing in your prelude to the main event. A+ as far as I am concerned.
As for the festivities themselves, I liked the casual utilitarianism of the desecration. Adding a page from The god Delusion was also thoughtful and helps showing that the truly unbiased, rational mind doesn't revere icons, even if their meaning agrees with their own conclusions. I think a page from 'Origin of the Species' would have been FAr more effective in rubbing on the faces of fundies how we do not hold Evolution or science as a religion.
Posted by: Jesse | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Good blog. The preamble was perfect.
I wouldn't have bothered with the nail, although the page of the God Delusion was a nice touch. Unconcerned throwing out with the trash. Perfect.
Good luck wading through the hate mail.
Posted by: Patricia | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Standing ovation!
Bravo PZ! Bravo!
Posted by: S. Fisher | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Brace yourself PZ. I've been reading your blog for several years (since sometime in '05) and this seems to be some sort of culminating event. I think you've definetly got the attention of the worlds Godbotherers now. It's been fun, and will continue to be fun to watch your antics. Changing the world one post at a time.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
TG,
Surely Catholics will be able to tell if the wafer is consecrated or not. In fact this whole thing has been about just that claim, that there is a difference. Well if there is, Catholics presumably will be able to tell. After all if that wafer really is the body of Christ it will not be the same as just an ordinary wafer.
So come Catholics, tell us. Is that wafer consecrated or not ?
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Crucified again ;)
What's this thread (and/or follow-ups) going to, 5000 comments?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Michael Hogan | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
I'm an atheist and think religious beliefs are stupid but I wish you hadn't done this. It will just inflame them. It would have been better to do nothing and let their own intolerant words condemn them. The Catholics have revealed their true nature.
Love your web site otherwise.
Posted by: Milo Johnson | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Now if we could just make the rest of the religious crackers in the country go away...
Posted by: Kobra | July 24, 2008 2:26 PM
PZ, you have a typo!
Posted by: bullfighter | July 24, 2008 2:26 PM
I hope your trash is picked up before the third day. I wouldn't want to have a holey cracker rise from my trash can and walk around my house.
Posted by: Vivek | July 24, 2008 2:26 PM
The God Delusion is about what we don't believe; the Eucharist and the Koran are symbols of what other people do believe. I would've preferred a genuine work of science to be among the desecratees.
Vivek
Posted by: God | July 24, 2008 2:26 PM
God damn it, PZ. Now I have to start the universe all over again.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 2:26 PM
GULP - The God Delusion...in the trash?!
You my friend, have Large Brass Balls.
You may need a wheelbarrow to carry those in...
(Yes - a Bill Hicks reference)
Wow.
I stand here shaken (not stirred)
Bravo, PZ, Bravo!
Posted by: Reginald | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
HOW DARE YOU! YOU HAVE DEFILED THE GREAT TENANT OF MY FAITH! I WILL NOW PRAY TO MY GOD:
OH MIGHTY AND MERCIFUL BAZELKESH, FORGIVE THIS MAN FOR COMBINING COFFEE GROUNDS WITH YOUR SACRED 'SPOTTILY BROWNED BANANA PEELS' HE KNOWS NOT WHAT HE DOES.
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
I'm sure that will be forthcoming, just as soon as somebody provides PZ with evidence that his consecrated host was transubstantiated into the Body of the Living God.
Why does one matter without the other?
++++++++++++
No desecration would have taken place were the host not consecrated, and thus no Catholic would even bother to notice. Yet, PZ claims the host was consecrated. Let him prove hi8s claim. Nobody has to believe it is the body of Christ for the act of consecration is a public act perfomed by a Catholic priest.
So, where's the proof, or is this place not about science after all?
Posted by: charfles | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
Woot finally. The God Delusion desecration was predicted (Prophesied?) by a few people in the earlier threads.
Posted by: S. Fisher | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
Brace yourself PZ. I've been reading your blog for several years (since sometime in '05) and this seems to be some sort of culminating event. I think you've definetly got the attention of the worlds' Godbotherers now. It's been fun, and will continue to be fun to watch your antics. Changing the world one post at a time.
Posted by: Bryan | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
This is so G-rated compared to all of the atrocities done in the name of Jesus.
I applaud your family values PZ!
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
Brilliant. I especially liked the abuse of the book by Dawkins, just to prove atheists consider nothing to be sacred.
Also brilliant was the massive evidence for the idea that Catholics are the most immoral people in human history, a problem that obviously continues today.
Well done, sir.
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
TG #39:
Can't you see the blood and ichor oozing from the stabbed host?
Wait...
That's because there's no difference between a fracking cracker and a consecrated host. (mumble mumble Hoc est corpus christi mumble mumble [nice ass on that choirboy] mumble mumble)
Why don't you use your amazing christo-powers to discern the cracker's consecrated nature?
Martin
Posted by: mk | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Wow! That's got to be the quickest trip to 100 comments ever!
Posted by: Andrew W | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Well done PZ.
Posted by: Reginald | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
HOW DARE YOU! YOU HAVE DEFILED THE GREAT TENANT OF MY FAITH! I WILL NOW PRAY TO MY GOD:
OH MIGHTY AND MERCIFUL BAZELKESH, FORGIVE THIS MAN FOR COMBINING COFFEE GROUNDS WITH YOUR SACRED 'SPOTTILY BROWNED BANANA PEELS' HE KNOWS NOT WHAT HE DOES.
Posted by: fireant451 | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Some may hoist a G&T, but I shall have a Rusty Nail tonight in PZ's honor.
Posted by: Viscount | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Great post PZ! It was exactly what was needed. Thanks for going through with this and not caving to the threats.
Incidentally, how did you manage to get the consecrated host? Did someone sneak it out of Mass or did you find a disgruntled ex-priest to Jesusize it for you?
Posted by: DB | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Whatever your attitude towards the Host may be - your actions and bragging about them display a hatred and utter disdain for those who believe differently from you.
I understand that YOU don't hold it sacred. That's fine, if you don't believe, you don't believe and that's your business. That is, it's between you and God (and if you don't believe in Him, also your business).
The fact is, the Host IS sacred to millions if not billions of people. Your actions reveal a deep seated hatred, contempt and disdain for those people and their beliefs. I guess nothing matters to you except what YOU think, how YOU feel and what YOU want. Must be nice being god on You Planet.
Posted by: Zeno | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I got a message telling me my comment had been aborted. (Sorry, Catholics, for using that terrible word.)
I assume the double post is a miracle!
Posted by: Brian | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Well, it's somewhat of an anticlimax for sure. No daylight instantly turning to night, no curtains ripping, no blood gushing, ground shaking...
I guess God either doesn't give a shit about crackers, Q'urans and mindless followers or perhaps...
Man made up the whole God thing.
hmmm
Either way, god doesn't give a shit. Live life, enjoy your family and friends and show respect to your fellow man/woman and not to crackers and silly beliefs.
Posted by: RM | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
That was beautifully done.
Posted by: Greta Christina | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Oh, P.S.: I just want to say how sorry I am for everything you've been through with this, PZ. You took one for the team. Thanks, dude.
(And I also want to say that, when I started my initial comment, the comments were at 7, and yet mine came in at #61. Fracking hilarious.)
Posted by: Autumn | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Given that the picture was below the fold, as well as the length of the post, any people claiming to be outraged about it are obviously going to great lengths to find images which offend them. How sick is someone who really, really needs to be angry all the time?
Posted by: Moses | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Yeah!
Posted by: Adam | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Don't let the bastards grind you down
Posted by: Reed Braden | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Wooo! Carnage!
Posted by: Gene Goldring | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
"That's one small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind"
Posted by: Katharine | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
Vivek -
Science is not religion.
Posted by: BaldySlaphead | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
Congratulations PZ; you made the point even more forcefully than I had hoped by treating this whole preposterous affair with the casual contempt it so rightly deserved. The God Delusion was a great touch!
Hope the fuckwits leave you alone now.
Posted by: e.citizen | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
Hell laughed indeed.Did God hurt? I'm sure God wouldn't burn in hell, but you have chosen to be. hahahahahaha
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
The books I destroyed were ones that I had duplicate copies of -- I've actually got several other copies of The God Delusion still. I think Richard will forgive me. In fact, he might join me in encouraging all of you to go buy a second copy so you can desecrate your first.
Nobody is going to be going through my garbage. The date was picked intentionally to be after the weekly garbage pickup here. I suppose some Catholic crazies could head out to bless the Morris landfill, if they want.
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
Argh, sorry for the double post, I see the server is already toasted. I'm sure PZ's overlords at Scienceblogs are just thrilled. But boy has this ever been worth it.
Posted by: Wayne Walker | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
As a worshiper of the Great Spotted Banana, I will express a modicum of outrage at 4pm, over tea. Followed by a nap.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
Blessed be the holy evolution, PZ did not desecrate the holy Origin.
Had he violated my holy religion, vengeance would follow (you know I'm kidding, right)?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:31 PM
May God forgive you.
Posted by: Parker | July 24, 2008 2:31 PM
Fantastic ending to an embarrassing display of MIddle Age irrationality and sickening idiocy.
Posted by: Eric | July 24, 2008 2:31 PM
Good one. Nice touch by adding in Dawkin's book.
Posted by: Honna | July 24, 2008 2:31 PM
I was starting to get bored today.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 2:31 PM
PZ,you should eat your bananas before they turn brown.
No way! Bananas have to be brown to taste right. Chiquita says so!
Fabulous post, PZ. Very well-written and thought out.
Posted by: Anthony | July 24, 2008 2:32 PM
I can't desecrate my first copy of The God Delusion - Professor Dawkins consecrated it with his signature.
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | July 24, 2008 2:32 PM
Beautiful. Elegant. Poignant. Thought-provoking. A glass raised to you, my friend.
And, a request to the rest of my atheist friends here. We all know the "righteous" will come here bellowing. I suggest we sit back, and quietly let them, in our own form of silent protest. I'd love nothing more than to let this thread fill up with nothing but hate-filled vitriol from the catholics, reinforcing PZ's post. Let it fill with the complaints and screeches of those who don't get the point. I myself will contribute not one more word to this matter, and although I would never insist that you do the same, I think it would be great to just sit back and let it sink in... silently.
CE
Posted by: e.citizen | July 24, 2008 2:32 PM
Hell laughed indeed.Did God hurt? I'm sure God wouldn't burn in hell, but you have chosen to be. hahahahahaha you are not posting my comment, huh....where's your son tonite?
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:32 PM
TG's got a point and no logic driven being can deny that! We need proof it was consecrated. But unfortunately that proof will only be the word of the guy/girl that got it from him. Annecdotes aren't great as we point out to the silly christians/various fanatics. I doubt they let people videotape masses.
Guess for that one we'll just have to take it on... gasp... faith. Or start over and try to sneak camera proofs!
Posted by: Geoff | July 24, 2008 2:33 PM
I would like to personally thank Dr. Myers for not desecrating spaghetti or pasta of any kind.
His holyness the FSM is pleased.
Posted by: rb | July 24, 2008 2:33 PM
sorry, but the Koran does not look like an official Koran it looks like a translated version, which would diminish its sacredness.
Posted by: fireant451 | July 24, 2008 2:33 PM
Some may hoist a G&T, but I shall have a Rusty Nail tonight in PZ's honor.
Posted by: Jim RL | July 24, 2008 2:33 PM
TG, if you were actually a man of science you would never demand proof of anything. It is impossible to prove anything outside of mathematics and formal logic. Scientists deal in evidence. It is clearly a host. PZ is clearly capable of getting a host from his blog horde. PZ is clearly unconcerned with desecrating a consecrated host. Only extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Without evidence to the contrary there is no evidence to doubt his claim.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:33 PM
May God have mercy on you.
Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Please lead all souls to heaven especially those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.
Posted by: Steve | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
Just a thought to all the people wishing for God to Punish PZ - according to your shtick, all you have to do is "not believe" to go to hell, so what's the big deal about poking a hole in the bread wafer? Doesn't really add anything to the imagined tortures that were already imagined to be waiting in some imaginary after life...
Posted by: PaulT, | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
As an ex-catholic, just let me add that whatever you have done to that cracker, it is not nearly evil as what those priests did to those children for so many years.
Posted by: thundergunn | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
Well done! I'm going to raise a glass of Laphroaig in toast, and munch on some cheese and 'crackers'.
Posted by: Brian W. | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
Vivek, I think that is a good point. Oh well.
BTW, an Elder Scrolls fan?
Posted by: Erik | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
I will not stand for the desecration of the God Delusion. May science have mercy on your soul.
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
Beautiful!
Sagan, Feynman, Dawkins, Aasimov... All have inspired me at one point or another. It may be that you are not such a "rockstar" as them, but now it is your turn to inspire, PZ.
Thanks. Well done!
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
He won't, he's always pissed off. Sour guy, that G fellow.Posted by: Honna | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
I was starting to get bored today.
Posted by: razib | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
if you mean germany as a catholic nation 70 years ago, that's wrong, germany was (is) majority protestant (more then than now, as more secular germans have protestant than catholic background). as for the muslim vs.catholic comparison, i think the point is that the catholic league wants to fire you, the muslim league would want to set you on fire :-) that's a difference between obnoxiousness and savagery.
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Nothing is sacred, nothing I say! I'm going to set my browser to your web site, then drive a nail through my monitor. That will show you who's serious.
Posted by: Jason W | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
The pages make me a little sad, but I recognize I'm pretty irrational when it comes to books. Took me the better part of the first year of college to be willing even to write notes in a textbook.
Posted by: mr_p | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Bravo.
But why a rusty nail? I thought it took wooden stakes or silver bullets to kill the undead?
A reply to a comment on a prior post who compared this to destroying a family heirloom or something to that effect, These things are mass produced by the thousands, if not more everyday. It was by no means a rare or one of a kind item. No catholic had to forgo communion because of a shortage of crackers.
When everything becomes sacred, then nothing is.
Anyway, the world seems to not have ended. Everyone as you were.
Posted by: DaveX | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Absolutely perfect, PZ-- glad to see you did this right. I also appreciate the historical leadup, which was very interesting.
Gotta wonder, though... how long before some nutjob sees the face of Jebus in the coffee stains?
Posted by: Tom Morris | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
A sacred cracker gets crucified. Now only a few weeks filled with crazy zealots and concern trolls.
Posted by: raven | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
What sort of morons name a university after a torturer who condemned Giordano Bruno to burn at the stake and almost torched Galileo. Both for thinking that the earth orbits the sun. Must be for the Catholics who are desperately homesick for the middle ages.
Posted by: Michael | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
I can't wait to hear what Richard Dawkins thinks of this. :)
Dawkins would pad PZ on the back saying job well done you showed how science disproved the wafer being God. And since you got some bad responses it clearly justifies you in provoking such anger in the first place. Your such a martyr for the militant atheist cause which is a movement to wipe out religion all together. Oh that was also a lovely picture of the Quran I wish I could hang that up on my wall.
People with common sense just shake their heads, them militant atheists are like little kids fighting on a playground or in an alley somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if someone burns PZ picture...lol
Posted by: Kylgar | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Ah, well said and well played.
It is, after all, *just* a cracker.
...and *just* paper.
...and *just* a banana
(the latter of which, I have had and will have, no nightmares regarding, I'd like to add)
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
May God have mercy on you.
Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Please lead all souls to heaven especially those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.
Posted by: Kobra | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
#133: You might be right about that, PZ.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
May God have mercy on you.
Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Please lead all souls to heaven especially those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
Wow. I've never considered myself an acolyte of yours PZ (I just happen to also be a liberal atheist who's prone to ranting at stupidity), but I might have to become one now.
This little dénouement of yours, including the Judge Jones-esque preamble on the history of host desecration, was fitting, tactful, and if I may, somewhat graceful. No bloodthirsty foaming at the mouth like the goddies hoped for ("He hates the cracker! More proof of God's love!"), no disgusting freak show antics, but a simple statement of our intent as activist atheists: toss those sacred relics out with the rest of the things we no longer need. Bye-bye to gods, be they deities or Dawkinses or Darwinses.
I was wondering if you'd have the guts to toss out The God Delusion, though. We Darwinist atheists invented Hitler, you know.
Posted by: e.citizen | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
Hell laughed indeed.Did God hurt? I'm sure God wouldn't burn in hell. But you are a good candidate...hahahaha
Posted by: OctoberMermaid | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
Kind of a waste of a rusty nail, if you ask me.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
I do like the anti-climax. Hell, one could even argue that the nail was a fitting tribute to Xian superstition.
It's diplomatic (and safer--which should be aimed for) to "violate" various supposedly sacred texts.
By the way, though, I don't know if a Quran in English really counts. The "real Quran" is believed to be only the Arabic version. Not that some Muslims wouldn't be offended by "violating" an English translation, it's just that the "real offense" would probably require the original Arabic.
Just saying.
I'm certainly not suggesting a re-do with an Arabic version, of course. That, too, is a silly superstition.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Ken | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
Good work PZ! It has been fun to see just how seriously these religious nuts take their religion. I would love to see any of them justify their reactions using their own holy book. As a recovering christian I would especially love to hear how they think their Jesus would react to this. I am fairly certain they will not find passages where Jesus commanded people to threaten someone or their family with physical harm. Again, the whole episode has shown the fundie true colors.
Posted by: Greg | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
Well done. As far as the lack of Muslim complaints go, Zizek noted that European Muslims found that they allies were atheists after the Danish comic controversy.
Posted by: Ticktockman | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
So now, evidently, you've harmed (and caffeinated) Jesus. I've been wondering which *part* of Jesus, exactly has been harmed; which blessed bodily bit of flesh is the cracker. Since dogmatically speaking, Jesus is whole and eternal and all that in Heaven, it must be some part of his allegedly sinless flesh that didn't make the trip, perhaps some part of the, er, Holy of Holies separated at a young age.
Just *picture* it, my Catholic friends, chewing over that bit as it transubstantiates in your gullet. Holy indeed.
-TTm
Posted by: MicroZealous | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
So, will Dawkins now show stigmata? I'm confused.
Also, why are some people so eager to see this end? This is great entertainment for a long, hot summer.
May Thor forgive you all, then torture you.
Peace and Love ;
Posted by: Andrew Cramb | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
Well done PZ. I can't imagine a more appropriate post.
BRAVO!!!
Posted by: Spook | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
How did you manage to get a nail *through* one of those brittle crackers? I would expect it to simply break...
Perhaps I should repeat the experiment. You know, for science and stuff.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
Oh, no, link didn't work!
Chiquita song
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
And still no one has substantively countered my analogies. I'm not surprised.
Myers, I had hoped you would prevent you perverted desire from taking hold but you gave in. I still hold out hope for you somehow despite this.
Posted by: Hilary | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
Nothings sacred are you nuts? Every sperm is sacred, especially mine! I give each one a name and would provide them with crackers but thy have no mouths and as such eating (and screaming) are right out.
Posted by: Charades | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
@ #151: Oh, please.
*applauds PZ's brilliant blasphemy* Great job!
Pax Nabisco, people!
Posted by: Nick Winnick | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
From V for Vendetta:
Finch explains to Party leader Adam Susan the transcript of a recording made as V assassinates Archbishop Tony Lilliman.
Mr. Finch: There's something that sounds like "Kill me sentiment"... just gibberish... and then they talk about Communion and the Communion Wafer...There's the word "Transubstantiation": That's the miracle of Transubstantiation when the wafer transforms into the Body of Christ. Catholic concept originally. There, now listen to this...
V (on tape): And at the moment this enters your mouth it becomes the flesh of the Saviour?
Archbishop Lilliman (on tape): Yes. Yes. Look, please...
V (on tape): And whatever it is made of now, it will become the Body of Christ?
Archbishop Lilliman (on tape): Yes. Whatever it is now. Whatever.
V (on tape): I want you to swallow it.
Mr. Finch: And then there's a funny little human noise. And then there's just Beethoven's Fifth. End of tape. We've just had the Path reports through. The Bishop was poisoned. The Host was full of cyanide. And do you know what? When it reached his abdomen it was still cyanide.
Posted by: raven | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
What sort of morons name a university after a torturer who condemned Giordano Bruno to burn at the stake and almost torched Galileo. Both for thinking that the earth orbits the sun. Must be for the Catholics who are desperately homesick for the middle ages.
Posted by: very clever | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Dear Mr. Meyers,
I don't think you can claim unconcerned contempt for the host with the treatment that you've given it. Well, perhaps contempt, but not a lack of concern. Where did you find this rusty nail that you drove through the crotch of this jesus cracker? If you had to go searching for a rusty nail for just this purpose, your claim to a lack of concern loses its force. If you happen to have rusty nails sitting about, why?
As for desecration, there are many options you could have entertained, yet you chose to make a minor spectacle. You could have, as a colleague of mine suggests, painted it pink and placed it in a urinal in a church; you could have nailed it to a tree, or you could even have chosen to ignore it completely... Why the minor spectacle?
But seriously, the coffee and banana are a nice touch.
Posted by: Rodney Trotter | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Still haven't made my mind up about this. As an atheist (Russell agnostic technically) I don't respect crazy beliefs that tradition says we should; but there is a level of provocation here I feel slightly uncomfortable about.
I've been trying to think of a suitable analogy - the closest I got was taking a sacred Hindu cow and making a decent barbeque from it in front of the temple. Does that not make you feel slightly strange?
Posted by: adam | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Quote from
http://markshea.blogspot.com/
Repeatedly tried to get Myers to verify the "death threat" bit, but was shouted down by the throngs of Myers cultists who took the claim on faith
Oh the irony
Posted by: Hilary | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Nothings sacred are you nuts? Every sperm is sacred, especially mine! I give each one a name and would provide them with crackers but thy have no mouths and as such eating (and screaming) are right out.
Posted by: rob | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Mark: Eucharist!
Jack: Cojones!
KJ: Sacrilege!
PZ: It's only a cracker.
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Except for the odd spaghetti and banana worshipers, I'm not seeing a lot of god-bots posting on this thread yet.
Is the infestation over?
Posted by: aiabx | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Well done, PZ. That's a history lesson worth learning there.
Posted by: No One of Consequence | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
It would not surprise me in the least to find out that a group of Catholics would go through PZ's trash, or even to the local dump to search for the Eucharist and then take it back to a church, douse it in "Holy Water" and then give it a "proper" burial.
Posted by: Timothy Wood | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
*claps*
Posted by: Gary Hilson | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
You rock.
Posted by: Epinephrine | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Bwahaha.... if there were any way of proving that a host had been consecrated, it would lend at least some weight to the argument that it is special. But there isn't. All the "accidents" of the wee wafer are the same. There can't be proof, because there is no transubstatiation.
Posted by: tsig | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Ite missa est.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
I knew the first thing that would happen is that the loons would claim it is a fake cracker. The one I chose to photograph is one that the sender actually provided video documentation of where it came from.
Not that there's any substantial difference between the consecrated and unconsecrated version.
Posted by: skyblue | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
We're going to have to demand that the St. Paul police increase security and put a cordon around these nasty "Catholics" who say they're coming to the city to worship their gods at the RNC convention. They've already made numerous threats of violence and death to local residents. We can't have them wandering among the public.
Posted by: Aden B | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
Excellently done, PZ.
Posted by: Randy | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
Well said, of course, and AJ Milne @ #12 - also well said. Right to the crux of the matter, I'd say.
A little less seriously, I was saddened to find that PZ's heart is not only uncircumsized, but hard as well. Not just the arteries from all the filthy things we're all sure an eeeevil man like him does to his own body, but the entire heart. That's unfortunate.
As for myself, I must admit to a bit of ambivalence about being called an acolyte. On the one hand, no one has ever called me that before and it sort of has a nice ring to it - on the other hand I get the sneaky feeling mark Shea didn't mean it in a very nice way.
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
PZ,
surprisingly, I have to say, seing this picture: I really don't care about this desecregation-thing.
But you should think about seperating your biological waste from paper. I don't know how that is handled in the U.S. but here in Germany they would tell me to keep my garbage if I don't care for recycling (there are actual laws about that). That in fact I found much more offensive than the desecregation (though, of course, hardly offensive at all).
But the Koran and the cracker - It just so doesn't concern me. What deluded moron could possible care about that? I am afraid, we are to see...
Wish you luck,
Andy
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
Analogies? Which crazy one were you again? There's so many we lost track.Posted by: Clock | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
The "surprise entry" was pages from the God Delusion? Brilliant! Very impressive show, PZ. Well played.
Posted by: Timothy Wood | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
*claps*
Posted by: Reed Braden | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
Wooo! Carnage!
Posted by: James | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
I love it! This thread will go to infinity three times over!
Posted by: e.citizen | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
Hell laughed indeed.Did God hurt? I'm sure God wouldn't burn in hell. But you are a good candidate...hahahaha
Posted by: zer0 | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
Well said.
Posted by: Canuck | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
Well, before this thread gets to the thousands, let me just say that I'm very curious to see how long it takes for the bloviating Donohue to issue another press release, how long it takes for the hordes of believers to register their outrage, and how long before the first Muslim shows up. I think this may draw one into the fray. But we await with bated breath.
Posted by: Joe Cracker | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
The Donahues will have a big problem here. There is no way for them to prove that the cracker was consecrated.
I DARE THEM TO PROVE THAT THE NAILED CRACKER IS JESUS!
You really nailed it, PZ!
Posted by: MT | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
Bravo PZ!
The anti-climax is genius. This post reads, from top to bottom, like one of your brilliant science posts that attracted me to this site in the first place.
No ranting or vulgarities that would prevent sensitive souls from reading it or make it inappropriate for sharing with children - just a recitation of historical facts and logic conclusions.
This is the art of teaching, in the finest sense of the word.
Posted by: Jim RL | July 24, 2008 2:42 PM
Well done with the documentation PZ. That is more evidence then we'll ever get for any recognized "miracle" by the church.
Posted by: idahovic | July 24, 2008 2:42 PM
This is such a enlightening and fun post it ought to be illegal. Oh, wait...
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 2:42 PM
Ordinarily, I would agree, but a Catholic (in another thread) asserted that:
Me, I've argued that desecration of crackers is impossible anyway, but no one listens to me.
Posted by: kb9aln | July 24, 2008 2:42 PM
Excellent.
PZ, you continue to get my respect for your lucid treatment of the issue.
All the best to you and yours.
Posted by: Yoo | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
Seeing what Catholics have actually said to PZ, I have a hard time believing my eyes when I read a lot of Christians saying that he's the one that needs to get a grip. Threatening to disrespect a single wafer among trillions (probably an underestimate by a few orders of magnitudes) versus death threats? And there are people who actually consider the former a more serious offense? I can only hope that such people will be able to learn basic human decency that is common to most of humanity, instead of clinging to their religious faith used to justify horrendous things.
Posted by: Spook | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
How did you manage to get a nail *through* one of those brittle crackers? I would expect it to simply break...
Perhaps I should repeat the experiment. You know, for science and stuff.
Posted by: Kim | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
Well done PZ. At least you are consistent, and it is good that you treat Evangelical Atheism the same way as Evangelical Catholicism........
Posted by: Jason W | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
The pages make me a little sad, but I recognize I'm pretty irrational when it comes to books. Took me the better part of the first year of college to be willing even to write notes in a textbook.
Posted by: Don O'Treply | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
what - no Velveeta® on this cracker? And I was hoping for a recipe for Nacho Cheesus.
At any rate, PZ, you've done the world (another) favour by pointing out how vile the Catholic "religion" really is. Truly disgusting, the lot of them.
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
And still no one has substantively countered my analogies. I'm not surprised.
Myers, I had hoped you would prevent you perverted desire from taking hold but you gave in. I still hold out hope for you somehow despite this.
Posted by: anevilmeme | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
PZ I have officially added you to my list of heros!
Posted by: K | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
PZ totally PWND Jesus
Posted by: Andrew Cramb | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
Well done PZ. I can't imagine a more appropriate post.
BRAVO!!!
Posted by: Nick | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
I've been reading your blog for a while but this is my first comment. I must say, this is one of the finest pieces of expression I've seen on the topic and is a marvelous example of how to respond to religious fanatics with both class and witticism.
Bravo!
Posted by: MT | July 24, 2008 2:44 PM
Bravo PZ!
The anti-climax is genius. This post reads, from top to bottom, like one of your brilliant science posts that attracted me to this site in the first place.
No ranting or vulgarities that would prevent sensitive souls from reading it or make it inappropriate for sharing with children - just a recitation of historical facts and logic conclusions.
This is the art of teaching, in the finest sense of the word.
Posted by: Hessenroots | July 24, 2008 2:44 PM
"making a decent barbeque from it in front of the temple. Does that not make you feel slightly strange?"
Poor analogy only in that this wasn't done outside a mosque or church (as far as we know).
Taking pictures of the steak and posting them on a blog would be more like it.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 2:44 PM
Celtic_Evolution (#144) wrote:
Excellent suggestion. I will try my best to not respond to the Catholic insanity that's sure to come.
I hope the Catholics who come here read PZ's excellent summary of Catholic atrocities.
Catholics don't throw people in gas chambers anymore, and they no longer murder people who refuse to eat crackers, but this cracker incident proves beyond any doubt Catholics are still the most immoral people in human history.
Posted by: John Swindle | July 24, 2008 2:44 PM
Wonderful. Appropriate. Well considered. Beautifully stated. Highly moral.
Exactly what I would've said if I were articulate enough to do so.
And you even included a Python reference.
Today, PZ, you are the King of Blogdom.
Posted by: Preston | July 24, 2008 2:44 PM
Cool. It is, indeed, just a cracker.
And I'm glad you included some pages from the God Delusion, to emphasize the idiocy of holding ANYTHING sacred.
Posted by: Leukocyte | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
[Yawn]... I can't wait for this to die down and go away. I stay away from church so I can think about things that actually matter without having to deal with the crazies. Now the crazies are all over my favorite blog. Can we please cleanse our palate with some more blogging about developmental biology papers? Everyone knows that jargon-laden research papers are to fundamentalists as sunlight is to vampires.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
Now, if only there were a true account of the time wasted over a single piece of baked wheat paste.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: No One of Consequence | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
[poe]
Look at the picture closely. I'm sure there is a Dilbert cartoon in the trash as well. You can just see the corner of it underneath the book.
Alert the Dilbots!!!!
[/poe]
Posted by: Pablo | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
And, whereas sexual abuse is certainly the pinnacle of it, others, such as myself, were abused in other ways. For example, my second grade teacher, Sister Claire Marie Meyer never hesitated to hit us for doing bad things, like coloring outside the lines in art class. She would hit us with whatever she had conveniently in her hand, which could be a ruler, or the handle of a scissors. If she didn't have anything in her hand, she would just turn around her big fat nun ring and slap us upside the back of the head with the stone.
Again, we were in second grade. Find your nearest 8 year old and start whacking them over the head with solid objects.
Talk about a coward.
But at least she never desicrated a host, right?
Posted by: JT Eberhard | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
Good riddance. Well done Dr. Myers. You are appropriately brave, and your arguments are sensible and well-written.
Tonight, we shall toast your name in Springfield.
JT
Posted by: Kim | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
Well done PZ. At least you are consistent, and it is good that you treat Evangelical Atheism the same way as Evangelical Catholicism........
Posted by: stevogvsu | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
PZ,
This night I will drink (copiously) and have sinful vigorous sex in your honor.
Posted by: Mike B | July 24, 2008 2:46 PM
Well done PZ; it proves that atheists have more compassion and forgiveness than all the religions combined.
Posted by: llewelly | July 24, 2008 2:46 PM
Uhh... Is there a weird sect of Catholicism which circumcises the heart?Posted by: DaveH | July 24, 2008 2:46 PM
PZ MYERS WILL DIE...eventually, and, emmm...that will be the end of it for him, like everyone else. Personally, if I'm still around at the time, I will mourn the passing of a great educator. Slainte mha!
Posted by: Ken E. | July 24, 2008 2:46 PM
I've been following this a bit but, I'm sorry, religion just isn't worth all this effort.
Posted by: HumanisticJones | July 24, 2008 2:46 PM
I have to say, I think the high point of all of this was the pages from TGD in the trash with everything else. One could have attempted to hamstring your argument of holding nothing sacred by claiming that you can dish it out, but not take it. However, I think that it would have been more impacting if you had done this with Origin of Species... you know... since we Atheists apparently worship Darwin.
Bravo for the wonderful post before that unsurprisingly anti-climactic picture of trash in a trash can.
Posted by: OneMadClown | July 24, 2008 2:47 PM
Bravo, Professor.
Posted by: SC | July 24, 2008 2:47 PM
I wouldn't mind one of those, if they're just sitting around. :)
Posted by: GAtheist | July 24, 2008 2:47 PM
Funny how Donohue threatened to tell CAIR that PZ was going to desecrate a Koran when it was his band of cracker crusaders that were the ones demanding PZ do it...
Posted by: Guido | July 24, 2008 2:47 PM
Great.
Excellent.
Now, all they have to do is pray. Right? The Lord listens to them
Right?
Come on, people, stop writing e-mails. Have TRUE faith.
Posted by: Preston | July 24, 2008 2:48 PM
Cool. It is, indeed, just a cracker.
And I'm glad you included some pages from the God Delusion, to emphasize the idiocy of holding ANYTHING sacred.
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
Amazingly well put.
Now, hopefully, sanity will return here.....maybe with the help of a ban hammer.
Posted by: The skepTick | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
Let freedom ring.
Posted by: unicow | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
Wonderful post. Wonderful desecration.
Can we talk about cephalopods now?
Posted by: gir | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
Zombie jebus cracker will eat your brains.
Posted by: Bryan | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
Pete Rooke #221
"And still no one has substantively countered my analogies. I'm not surprised."
And the conceit of the faithful continues...
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
PZ,
surprisingly, I have to say, seing this picture: I really don't care about this desecregation-thing.
But you should think about seperating your biological waste from paper. I don't know how that is handled in the U.S. but here in Germany they would tell me to keep my garbage if I don't care for recycling (there are actual laws about that). That in fact I found much more offensive than the desecregation (though, of course, hardly offensive at all).
But the Koran and the cracker - It just so doesn't concern me. What deluded moron could possible care about that? I am afraid, we are to see...
Wish you luck,
Andy
Posted by: arensb | July 24, 2008 2:50 PM
I see no response yet from either Bill Donohue (d/b/a the Catholic League) or Richard Dawkins.
Anyone wanna bet which one has more important things to do than comment on this, like wash the dog, and which one will throw a tantrum as soon as he recovers from the vapors?
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 2:50 PM
You know what would be nice is a substantive post right about now.
This whole cracker business is too meaningless, and I hope that it will die down soon. It's hard to believe that either side can invest as many electrons to this business as they have.
Something meaningful on this blog would be most welcome right now.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: OctoberMermaid | July 24, 2008 2:50 PM
Jesus?
Jesus!?
JESUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS!
Posted by: Kent | July 24, 2008 2:50 PM
Alah Akbar alert
This website link will be given to all the radical jihadis on youtube. You wanted attention so now you will get it.
Second rate, anybody can come university attention seeker will now get attention from the "religion of peace"
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Fuck. A nail through a cracker is very mild in comparison with the
thingspeople the Catholics were fond of putting them through. I don't think Bruno and Vanini appreciated the sharp metal objects.Here's a short list of things which are not goddamned crackers.
Posted by: Kenny | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Absolutely brilliant! Of all the myriad ways I imagined you could deal with this cracker, I can't think of a more appropriate ending.
Posted by: Snark | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Well done! My salutations.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
PZ, that was one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read, thank you so much for this!
Congratulations on the desecration, I hope it leads to mass cracker killings all around the nation.
Posted by: JustaTech | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Oh no PZ! Now the librarians will be after you. Nancy Pearl will lead them in their charge on you and terrify you with their "sushing action". Lo, feel the ground tremble! *Much humor* Seriously, good job.
Posted by: Morris | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Thanks for your enlighting us.
Posted by: The skepTick | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Let freedom ring.
Posted by: waldteufel | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Thanks, P.Z.
This was one of your very best posts.
Posted by: Interested reader | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Hmm... some smart guy. Talk about being totally moronic, I can only think of God's mercy toward this guy is going to be a baseball bat to his head so he finally gets it through that head of his that the Eucharist is Jesus.
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Strange, I thought everyone here looked for compelling evidence for everything before coming to a conclusion. There's no evidence given by Dr. Myers that this host was actually consecrated. I, for one, don't believe it.
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 2:52 PM
Won't Way of the Master be upset that you desecrated a banana?
Posted by: Fiziker | July 24, 2008 2:52 PM
Still seems a little too complicated for what it's worth. I think it was the right choice to go for something simple. As I was reading, I thought that flushing it down the toilet might be appropriately simple, but I realized that God might smite you by backing up your toilet.
Well done, PZ!
Posted by: Vince | July 24, 2008 2:52 PM
Well done Prof. Myers. I will raise a glass of Jack Daniels to you.
So when is this going to get national press coverage? NY Times? The Today Show?...oh forget it. Random thoughts seep out now and then.
Posted by: Michael Edmondson | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Wow. I may have to make an animation of this...
Posted by: Ken Cope | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Well done. Nothing is sacred. No idea is above challenge. In the words of Lenny Bruce, "Everybody's ass is up for grabs." At first it appears too studied to achieve that epic Zen casualness, but the randomness of coffee grounds, rusty nail (I wonder if Luther used a rusty nail to pound his message into the church door?) and overripe banana peel really tie it together. Titling the entire mess a God Delusion simultaneously twits and pays homage to the Zen Roshi of Atheism. What you did to the cracker is an apt punishment and a victimless crime.
Here's to the day when it can truly be said that religion is just dessert. As pictured, it sure looks like an ugly mess of a main course.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
PZ, that was one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read, thank you so much for this!
Congratulations on the desecration, I hope it leads to mass cracker killings all around the nation.
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
I'm proud humanity also consists of people like you, Mr Myers. Now, up to us to act with intelligence and humor.
Posted by: The skepTick | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Let freedom ring.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
I've been trying to think of a suitable analogy - the closest I got was taking a sacred Hindu cow and making a decent barbeque from it in front of the temple.
FAIL. If you haven't noticed, this is happening on his blog, which does not show up by magic on people's computers. They have to come here to see it. The proper analogy would be having a barbeque at his own house. I'm sure no good Catholic has ever had a barbeque at their house before, out of concern for offending Hindus, right?
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
PZ,
surprisingly, I have to say, seing this picture: I really don't care about this desecregation-thing.
But you should think about seperating your biological waste from paper. I don't know how that is handled in the U.S. but here in Germany they would tell me to keep my garbage if I don't care for recycling (there are actual laws about that). That in fact I found much more offensive than the desecregation (though, of course, hardly offensive at all).
But the Koran and the cracker - It just so doesn't concern me. What deluded moron could possible care about that? I am afraid, we are to see...
Wish you luck,
Andy
Posted by: sQuee. | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Bravo. I generally thought all of this was well done and am quite pleased how the ending came about. There was definite proof that it occurred, although the cracker blends into the pages in the picture. You have to find the nail, then look for the cracker on the nail. I normally wouldn't have agreed with the nail, seemed a tad overboard, but made it very easy to see that there was indeed a dry, tasteless looking cracker at the end of said nail.
All in all, bravo.
Posted by: someone221 | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Hmm... some smart guy. Talk about being totally stupid, I can only think of God's mercy toward this guy is going to be a baseball bat to his head so he finally gets it through that head of his that the Eucharist is Jesus.
Posted by: Macron | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
You should have treated it like the cracker that it is and just eaten it for a snack.
Posted by: Inky | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
*Standing ovation*
Nicely done; and I mean the text.
I didn't give a crap what you did with what.
Posted by: Kenny | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
Absolutely brilliant! Of all the myriad ways I imagined you could deal with this cracker, I can't think of a more appropriate ending.
Posted by: mk | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
For Michelle at #205
That was funny as hell! Thanks for the crack up.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
PZ:
Nor any insubstantial difference, either, no?
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
It's all just stuff. That says it all.
Posted by: MrMarkAZ | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
"Class dismissed."
Posted by: Cleon | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
You know, I had a very similar thought.
Posted by: NoAstronomer | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
Nice move including the God Delusion, that was a surprise.
Posted by: RamblinDude | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
Well done.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
I totally know what you mean. He's worse than those devil-spawn children who claimed to be molested just to give the church a black-eye, or those who claim that Galileo was excommunicated and held under house arrest for claiming that the Earth was not the centre of the solar system, when in fact it was Galileo who persecuted those scientific men of God in the Vatican. In fact, the world is so hostile to Catholics that, fearing more repercussions like the Crusades (a Freemason frame job), the Vatican didn't feel safe coming out with their heliocentric findings until 1992.
Besides, no one's ever been able to prove Mary wasn't a virgin and why would so many people risk their lives for a lie if the bible isn't true and what about frozen waterfalls and how come nobody's ever seen a consecrated host evolve into a pumpernickel? I can't wait to see how you Myers-ists try to deny God's love when you're all burning in Hell for eternity!
Posted by: dale | July 24, 2008 2:55 PM
Dominoes Nabisco, et cum sirit tu tuo.
Posted by: Janus | July 24, 2008 2:55 PM
Brilliant post, PZ. We're very lucky to have you as one of the champions of reason.
Posted by: Fiziker | July 24, 2008 2:55 PM
Still seems a little too complicated for what it's worth. I think it was the right choice to go for something simple. As I was reading, I thought that flushing it down the toilet might be appropriately simple, but I realized that God might smite you by backing up your toilet.
Well done, PZ! I'm glad that no blood squirted out of the host when you stabbed it.
Posted by: Guido | July 24, 2008 2:55 PM
Great.
Excellent.
Now, all they have to do is pray. Right? The Lord listens to them
Right?
Come on, people, stop writing e-mails. Have TRUE faith.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:55 PM
I would find that totally funny... If I could figure out if you're serious or joking.I'll go with joking cuz that's a great parody cartoon you just described there. :) (Cuz if you're serious... That's not very christian of you!)
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
PZ,
surprisingly, I have to say, seing this picture: I really don't care about this desecregation-thing.
But you should think about seperating your biological waste from paper. I don't know how that is handled in the U.S. but here in Germany they would tell me to keep my garbage if I don't care for recycling (there are actual laws about that). That in fact I found much more offensive than the desecregation (though, of course, hardly offensive at all).
But the Koran and the cracker - It just so doesn't concern me. What deluded moron could possible care about that? I am afraid, we are to see...
Wish you luck,
Andy
Posted by: Andrés Diplotti | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
* golf clap *
Posted by: Ash | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
beautifully written, beautifully 'executed'. thank you Professor.
Posted by: Dahan | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
Why'd ya have to do that to a nail! As a designer and builder, don't you know what that nail represents to me! What that symbolizes? Damn you! I'd rather you would have come over and skinned my cats than to defile the sacred nail. I'll be praying to the almighty hammer for you.
Ok, with that, keep up the excellent blog PZ. Thanks.
Posted by: MrMarkAZ | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
"Class dismissed."
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
I just want to throw in my support for a job well done, PZ. Throwing away those items harms no one, and you've at least brought the issue of freedom of speech to the forefront of a lot of people's minds, right where it needs to be. Most of those people have been Catholics though, since the majority of atheists already favor and defend free speech regularly. Now we just have to wait and see if there are any Catholic Leaguers out there who poses the ability to look at this situation rationally and realize that you had, and continue to have, all the right in the world to perform this act.
Posted by: thegomezsymbol | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
Oh man, you desecrated coffee?
You will sure burn in hell for that one!
Hurray for a good set of... gills.
Posted by: mayhempix | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
You "nailed it" PZ.
Now we wait for the crucifying to come from Donawhore, et al.
Posted by: Jeff Arnold | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
BRAVO!
Posted by: Longtime Lurker | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
You ripped up a copy of "The God Delusion"? Richard Dawkins will surely strike you down with a great bolt of NOTHING!
Posted by: Jeff Arnold | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
BRAVO!
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
Michelle: "Analogies? Which crazy one were you again? There's so many we lost track."
An uncomfortable truth still remains a truth. Here is the compilation:
1) Suppose you were a milkman with rotting teeth and cankerous lips. Before delivering each milk bottle you would take a swig and place it on the doorstep. You continued to abuse you privileged access to other people's milk for years. Then one day you decide to retire. Before you leave however, you let all of your customers know what you've been engaged in by letter while also leaving a picture of your cankerous mouth under each bottle. You have gleefully proclaimed your actions to all who will listen. No one was physically harmed and yet every customer (read: Catholic) affected feels deeply violated and abused. PZ Myers is effectively that milkman.
2) Suppose your are an embalmer. You are busy embalming a person for an open coffin ceremony and you decide to pilfer there lush locks of blonde hair for the construction of high class wigs (a business you have going on the side).
This person happens to be a Sikh. In order to hide the fact you have stolen their hair you then purchase a cheap synthetic wig and replace it. In the small print of the contract (which the distraught family don't read carefully enough) you make mention of this.
After the event you then decide to publicize this gleefully on a blog. No physical harm has been done to either person and yet I would argue that this is equivalent to PZ Myer's theft and subsequent desecration of the Eucharist publicized on his blog (of which extra web traffic generates money).
3) Young ladies like to wear an item of clothing called a mini-skirt these days. The material is often sheer and by its definition does not even come close to covering the knee roll.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniskirt)
Now if someone chooses to wear such an item it does not in the least bit make rape and sexual abuse permissible despite the fact that the odds increase exponentially. In both the eyes of the secular law and of my religion the assailants are still just as culpable.
So merely because Catholicism may seem like a remarkably soft target for PZ Myers (he has since been roped into desecrating the Koran) he is still as culpable as someone who chooses to attack say the more benign and watered down religions of Quakerism/Unitarian-Universalism.
4) Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
Now desecrating the Eucharist would have the same effect as desecrating that book and posting the evidence in glee.
Posted by: Jay | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
That's just it. These people live their lives based on the "what if". They don't actually believe, but they are scared into acting as if they do because they are afraid of being wrong.
Posted by: Inky | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
*Standing ovation*
Nicely done; and I mean the text.
I didn't give a crap what you did with what.
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
I'm proud humanity also consists of people like you, Mr Myers. Now, up to us to act with intelligence and humor.
Posted by: Jon | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
Mercy. You're doing it wrong.
Posted by: Gus C | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
Nothing must be held sacred.
Exactly!! People come up to me and say they respect that I am atheist. I tell them to fucken not!
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
Excellent! Congratulations! You may be on the path to recovery. Just start subjecting ALL ideas that are presented to you to this very same treatment. It may feel a little bit funny at first, but you will get used to it. Eventually, you will start abandoning bullshit... until you abandon the last god that you still cling to. This will be good: you will be able to walk around without you security blanket... And it will free your mind.
Posted by: The skepTick | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
Great show. Let freedom ring. Let reasonable minds prevail.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
Wow I think this all caused a terrible server comment lag. Comments are bumping into each other so much that the comments numbers are moving up and down and some comments are being fitted inbetween.
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
PZ,
surprisingly, I have to say, seing this picture: I really don't care about this desecregation-thing.
But you should think about seperating your biological waste from paper. I don't know how that is handled in the U.S. but here in Germany they would tell me to keep my garbage if I don't care for recycling (there are actual laws about that). That in fact I found much more offensive than the desecregation (though, of course, hardly offensive at all).
But the Koran and the cracker - It just so doesn't concern me. What deluded moron could possible care about that? I am afraid, we are to see...
Wish you luck,
Andy
Posted by: bellerophon | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
PZ,
Good job, brilliantly conceived, spectacularly finished. As said, you deserve a standing ovation for that. A second G&T's hoisted up for you tonight in London. (We can turn this into a flashmob drinking session, people, just a thought.)
I can imagine the Catholics furor now. Either they're gonna go on "demonizing" you, or they're gonna call you a coward because you haven't recorded it live, you don't show proof that the cracker's consecrated, etc. Either way, it's gonna be so much fun to watch.
Thanks PZ, and homage to your big balls of steel.
Posted by: Nelson M. | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
I hope we can all get on with our respective lives now.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
I just want to throw in my support for a job well done, PZ. Throwing away those items harms no one, and you've at least brought the issue of freedom of speech to the forefront of a lot of people's minds, right where it needs to be. Most of those people have been Catholics though, since the majority of atheists already favor and defend free speech regularly. Now we just have to wait and see if there are any Catholic Leaguers out there who poses the ability to look at this situation rationally and realize that you had, and continue to have, all the right in the world to perform this act.
Posted by: mayhempix | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
You "nailed it" PZ.
Now we wait for the crucifying to come from Donawhore, et al.
Posted by: Turdus | July 24, 2008 2:59 PM
Well said PZ. I especially liked the part about "sacrilege to the host" as an excuse to murder non-believers. This blog got a lot of attention from a lot of people, PZ. I think the thing that drives Catholics crazy the most about the whole affair is that YOU DID GET SOME PEOPLE THINKING, especially young people who saw this, in spite of assurances otherwise. That is really what is driving them NUTS!
Posted by: kestrien | July 24, 2008 2:59 PM
Watch out, P.Z., they're coming...
...to pray for you.
"What would he do if Catholics and other Christians, and even sympathetic members of other faiths, turned up en masse on his campus simply to pray quietly for him?"
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/07/pz-myers-desecrates-the-euchar.html
For some reason, I think he might stop by to say "hey," then go about his business.
Posted by: Parker | July 24, 2008 2:59 PM
Fantastic end to a fantastically pitiful display of human progression and rational thinking.
I'm glad you desecrated the God Delusion to show that we don't even take our own books that seriously.
Oh but Kirk Cameron's gona be soooo pissed that you trashed his yellow proof of gawd.
Posted by: JackC | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
May I have permission - or is it implied here - to copy your "If I wanted to..." portion of this? Positively spot-on.
JC
Posted by: Kent | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
Alah Akbar alert. ...........Attention getter lol
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Posted by: Tony Phillips | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
I guess I understand why...you see religion as dangerous. Ok I get it, I don't agree but I get it. I see Godlessness as being even more dangerous...and we could go back and forth all day with examples of how the Catholic church did this terrible thing and how communists and other athiest organizations did that terrible thing. (Funny how you left that out of your litany of people who killed in the name of belief.)
But you know what's really funny? Your picture is a fake. I handle unconcecrated hosts every day and concecrated hosts every week, just like the one in your picture. If you even pressed the tip of a nail to a host it would crack into pieces. So that nail sticking right through it is a product of some picture editing software. So I guess you didn't do all you say you did. It makes me wonder if you did any of the other stuff. Interesting...confusing but interesting.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
PZ, that was one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read, thank you so much for this!
Congratulations on the desecration, I hope it leads to mass cracker killings all around the nation.
Posted by: deadvole | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
PZ, will you be my stand-in grandpa when I move to Minnesota? Because I need one as awesomely cool and eloquent as you. Very beautifully handled, that.
Posted by: Vic | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
Dr. Myers, my hat's off to you. That's better than anything I could've dreamed up, and the real cherry on the sundae is that this is one of your best blog posts ever - enlightening, informative, incisive, and ever-so-quotable.
Plus, of course, imagining what the riled-up-hordes will do with the image of the God Delusion 'desecrated' along with their fetish items.
Posted by: Ric | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
I have an uncircumcised heart and an uncircumcised penis, and I'm happy about both.
That was a beautifully written essay, PZ. Screw the stupid cracker.
Posted by: Randy | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
Kent @ #260:
Do you know a lot of "radical jihadis"? Hmmm, expect the NSA and Homeland Security to come down your parents basement stairs any moment.
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
someone221 sez:
Hmm... some smart guy. Talk about being totally stupid, I can only think of God's mercy toward this guy is going to be a baseball bat to his head so he finally gets it through that head of his that the Eucharist is Jesus.
Is that what it took for you, someone221, or were you just naturally mentally deficient enough to believe that a little round cracker is your God? c^_^ɔ
Posted by: thegomezsymbol | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
Oh man, you desecrated coffee?
You will sure burn in hell for that one!
Hurray for a good set of... gills.
Posted by: Ben D | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
If you believe that truth is relative, why can't you respect what "my truth" is? I believe that the host becomes Jesus. You don't. I respect that you don't believe; I have no issue with your disbelief. I don't make fun of you for not believing. As a fellow human, I would have expected the respect to be reciprocal.
Posted by: Pierre | July 24, 2008 3:01 PM
Magnificent post, PZ. I hope the religiously inclined will
read it carefully. I mean REALLY read it, and understand it,
not just browse the picture and complain. There's nothing
evil here, nothing hateful. Just plain common sense, and
a reminder that freeing ourselves from religion is the
most moral thing that we humans can do. It's just a cracker.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 3:01 PM
It's all just stuff. That says it all.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 3:01 PM
Another echo from an acolyte here. Good work.
"This whole cracker business is too meaningless, and I hope that it will die down soon. It's hard to believe that either side can invest as many electrons to this business as they have."
Right, I'm afraid this blog has become too silly, and I'll 'ave to shut it down.
And the really troublesome part is as it gets more crowded, this thread will end up having even more replies due to that warning message that pops up in times of heavy traffic, and people re-submitting even though they most likely don't have to.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 3:01 PM
Stop posting, Andy! The intertubes are all clogged up. Don't worry, you're getting through multiple times, it just takes awhile.
Posted by: Stark | July 24, 2008 3:01 PM
Well done sir. Well done.
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 3:02 PM
Lovely stuff and nicely done. Good on ya PZ
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 3:02 PM
I'm proud humanity also consists of people like you, Mr Myers. Now, up to us to act with intelligence and humor.
Posted by: chigurh | July 24, 2008 3:02 PM
adding the god delusion was clutch. well done!
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | July 24, 2008 3:02 PM
PZ:
Nor any insubstantial difference, either, no?
Posted by: ash | July 24, 2008 3:02 PM
beautifully written, beautifully 'executed'. thank you professor.
Posted by: thegomezsymbol | July 24, 2008 3:03 PM
Oh man, you desecrated coffee?
You will sure burn in hell for that one!
Hurray for a good set of... gills.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:03 PM
@Tony Phillips
um...No. It's certainly a delicate operation sorta but it's perfectly doable. I actually already poked one of them crackers through. Not a church one, a "candy" one (who the fuck thought "hey let's use theses as candy"!? They're gross!) Yea, there was one on my birthday cake at one time. I poked a candle through it and it stayed in one piece. Honest to "god".
Anyway, if he couldn't do that, why did the church claim back then that the jews were doing it all the time?
Posted by: Dave2 | July 24, 2008 3:03 PM
Pete Rooke wrote:
Pardon me, but where are these analogies to be found? Not on this page, anyway.
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 3:04 PM
I'm so sorry for this repeated post above. It was unintended.
Shame upon me.
Posted by: Cardinal Shrew | July 24, 2008 3:04 PM
PZ,
You should put the remains of that copy of The God Delusion on ebay, it may not be sacred but I for one wouldn't mind owning it.
Posted by: Exitus | July 24, 2008 3:04 PM
Posted by Ticktockman and #178:
perhaps some part of the, er, Holy of Holies separated at a young age.
Just *picture* it, my Catholic friends, chewing over that bit as it transubstantiates in your gullet. Holy indeed
Ha! Nearly sprayed tea accross the room when i read this one.
Hehehe...
Posted by: Noadi | July 24, 2008 3:04 PM
Beautiful job! I don't mean the actual desecration, I honestly don't care much about it other than being happy it's over. What you wrote though is the far more important thing for people to realize. Nothing is sacred or should be taken on faith, question, learn, give respect where it is earned and deserved not where it is demanded. If it takes seeing symbols destroyed for some to wake up and see it than it's worthwhile to do.
Posted by: jb | July 24, 2008 3:04 PM
"They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything."
Amen.
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 3:05 PM
Folks, this happens every time Myers Pharyngulates himself. Just hit the post button once and have faith that it will be carried by His Noodly Appendage to the comments where it belongs.
Posted by: tim gueguen | July 24, 2008 3:05 PM
Waaaaah, PZ is being a big meany by sucking up blog hits for yet another day! Traffic is down on mine, and I just know its because of this whole "cracker" business. This includes the outrage hits, as I have yet to have someone make an angry comment about my post claiming Mark Steyn is full of hot air, or that cocaine use won't make the Barenaked Ladies seem hip and edgy.
Posted by: Turdus | July 24, 2008 3:05 PM
Well said PZ. I especially liked the part about "sacrilege to the host" as an excuse to murder non-believers. This blog got a lot of attention from a lot of people, PZ. I think the thing that drives Catholics crazy the most about the whole affair is that YOU DID GET SOME PEOPLE THINKING, especially young people who saw this, in spite of assurances otherwise. That is really what is driving them NUTS!
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 3:05 PM
Now if someone chooses to wear such an item it does not in the least bit make rape and sexual abuse permissible despite the fact that the odds increase exponentially.
OH MY NON-EXISTENT GOD NO IT DOESN'T. Pete, feel free to have your bizarre and irrelevant analogies, but don't be spreading actual untruths. Clothing has nothing do do with frequency of rape. Amazingly enough, the only thing that correlates with probability of rape is the presence of a rapist. And using something as horrendous as rape as analogy to an event involving throwing a cracker in the trash can is so wrong I can't even express my contempt that you tried.
Posted by: mark | July 24, 2008 3:06 PM
Pete at #310: There is nothing to respond to; what you've written is simply irrelevant nonsense.
I, too, cringe at the desecration of books!
Posted by: Melanogaster | July 24, 2008 3:06 PM
This was way cool. Well done!
Posted by: Exitus | July 24, 2008 3:06 PM
When I started writing my last comment, there were 214 posts. By the time the server accepted it there were 356. Wow.
Posted by: Cat's Staff | July 24, 2008 3:06 PM
Oh come on...'third rate'....U of M Morris is better then that!
Posted by: Ben | July 24, 2008 3:06 PM
PZ, are we still on to go unicorn hunting this fall?
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:07 PM
Holy motherfucking christ, John, get a fucking life you spammer!
How come there's no character limit on this blog anyway?!
Posted by: Nina in London | July 24, 2008 3:07 PM
P Z Myers in post #200 wrote
"Not that there's any substantial difference between the consecrated and unconsecrated version."
Hey, PZ is a comedian! To us Catholics, transubstantiation is *exactly* the difference. It is a wafer of wheat with the exactly the same form and taste as before the consecration, but after consecration the form is still of wheat but the substance is now the Body of Christ.
To share the bread is wonderful and beautiful sacrament, to those that believe - and surely worthy of respect. Those that eat the host are proclaiming "I am part of the Church and I believe in what it teaches and we are all one in Christ."
This incident is not going to damage the Church and I hope that it will strengthen people's faith and encourage people to find out about the Catholic faith in all its richness.
Incidentally, the Brompton Oratory, scene of the theft, is very beautiful and any visitors will enjoy the tranquility and reverent atmosphere, but please in future treat it and those that serve and worship there with respect.
Anyway, I would think that Jesus is having a good chuckle at all this. After all, he was renowned for eating with sinners rather than those who proclaimed themselves to be holy, the Gospels are full of dinners indoors and out. His message was one of forgiveness and encouragement.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 3:07 PM
Well Done, PZ!
You might want to start worrying about that banana, though.
Next thing you know, Ray Comfort & Kirk Cameron are going to come to Morris & paper your house with $1,000,000 bill tracts. See what you have started now?
By the way, I knew I was right a couple of threads back when I called out that coward to prove that UM Morris is a 4th tier University, as he so inaccuratly called it.
ps - I still think the Viking funeral would have been comical, yet dignified.
pps- The focus group results on ChristoCracker-Desecratingly Delicious haven't scored as high as we had hoped, so we sent the package down to marketing, & they have really done an outstanding job to upscale the product.
Announcing - CHRISTESSENCE Table Wafers - Baked in the Spirit
We're still working on the whole ad package, kind of a riff on the Keebler elves,
only with angels - what do you think?
...
..
.
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 3:07 PM
Lovely stuff, well done PZ
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 3:07 PM
It's the iron-fortified cracker.
By the way, to those offended, note what the Church itself did about all of this. Nothing.
Really, it does no good for the church (though it might convince you that you're good) to make a big deal about a common offense. I'm sure that much "worse" is done by many out of the public eye, so that you're not protesting the violation so much as the fact that it is well-known. Unfortunately (and I'm serious, I wish it had not been hyped), you are thereby ensuring that it will be even more well-known.
I wouldn't have done it, but that's my judgment, not to be confused with PZ's. I suggest giving it a rest.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Longtime Lurker | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
Dear Mr Rooke, WTF is up with your miniskirt/rape obsession? You are a creep of the greatest magnitude.
Just to do some gratuitous priest-bashing... how many of those young male victims were wearing miniskirts, Mr Rooke?
Posted by: Kenny | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
Absolutely brilliant! Of all the myriad ways I imagined you could deal with this cracker, I can't think of a more appropriate ending.
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
Ale #316:
"Just start subjecting ALL ideas that are presented to you to this very same treatment."
Ahh, but I do. I will grant Dr. Myers the same level of evidence I accept from the apostles and their disciples: if an actual eyewitness (e.g. the person who gave him the host) or someone with direct contact with the eyewitness (e.g., presumably, Dr. Myers himself), is willing to die rather than recant his claim that the host was consecrated, I will be convinced that it was, in fact, consecrated.
Posted by: octopod | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
Couldn't have been done with any more style or substance. PZ, you're awesome.
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
whoops apology for repeated posts, the servers seem to have reached their final hour.
Posted by: merkin j. pus-tart | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
perfect . . .
Posted by: Jonathan | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
I am shocked and outraged by your treatment of The God Delusion. That was unnecessary and hurtful to my beliefs.
Now, I'll have to kill you in some painful and horrific way. I'm a little busy at work right now, so it might have to wait. hmmm. Come to think of it, I'm on the west coast, so it's a little far for me to travel to... whatever state you're in. I hear there's states other than California and Los Vegas, but I don't know what they are... It would really help if you came here. Perhaps I could give you a good killing over lunch. I know a fantastic sushi place you'll just love. Tuesdays and Thursdays are best for me. Just give your number to my people, and they'll set something up for us.
Thank you for your immediate attention to this matter.
Jonathan
Posted by: jfatz | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
How DARE you desecrate the holy writ of our Lord and Savior, Richard Dawkins? You will surely burn! BURRRRRN!
...you know. If you, like... go to the beach. And don't bring suntan lotion.
Posted by: abeja | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
Excellent!
Posted by: Steve P. | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
A post for the ages.
Posted by: pksp | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
I don't know why you had to waste a perfectly good copy of The God Delusion to prove your point? At least that book is geared towards opening minds.
With that said, well done.
Posted by: 5ive | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
@106
"The God Delusion is about what we don't believe; the Eucharist and the Koran are symbols of what other people do believe. I would've preferred a genuine work of science to be among the desecratees.
Vivek"
Wouldn't the banana count since it has been scientifically engineered to reach its current edible-tasty state? Not to mention the trash can itself and the book pages and the ink on the pages and the coffee grounds and the rust reaction with the metals of the nail are a direct "symbol" of "scientism", wait, the cracker, too, used science to be "created". Don't forget about the breath PZ was exhaling and inhaling while he did this, that counts as science as well.
I guess we desecrate science every freaking day.
Posted by: Chuck Lunney | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
Not that there's any substantial difference between the consecrated and unconsecrated version
Wait, PZ! Didn't you mean there isn't any TRANSsubstantial difference?
And I heartily applaud including part of The God Delusion in this "public desecration". About the only thing missing was a page from Origin of the Species. Oh well -- can't have everything. Besides, it looked like your trashcan was getting full.
The prologue was worth the price of admission!
Congratulations on a spectacular non-event of less-than-epic proportions.
Posted by: Dr Doctor | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
John
Have you ever heard of keeping things brief?
PZ Myers, you turned this into an object lesson. Bravo.
Posted by: Alexander Treseder | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
imagine reading all of #355 and staying awake.
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
John,
Nice copypasta. Do you feel better now?
Posted by: Spook | July 24, 2008 3:10 PM
Shorter #355:
"blah blah magic man blah blah CRACKERS blah blah"
Posted by: BG | July 24, 2008 3:10 PM
PZ - it'd be cool if the entire episode could be recapped with highlights so I can pass it along (like to my kids) without making people wade through 1,000s of comments.
My only fear is that PZ has jumped the shark.
Posted by: Mark | July 24, 2008 3:10 PM
So, John at #355, are the contorted scribblings of deluded old men supposed to scare us?
Posted by: Matthew | July 24, 2008 3:10 PM
"No desecration would have taken place were the host not consecrated, and thus no Catholic would even bother to notice. Yet, PZ claims the host was consecrated. Let him prove hi8s claim. Nobody has to believe it is the body of Christ for the act of consecration is a public act perfomed by a Catholic priest.
So, where's the proof, or is this place not about science after all?"
TG, that's a silly detail. The fact that the presence or absence of hand-waving and Latin mumbling near the cracker has any affect on whether Catholics should be pissed off or not just goes to highlight how incredibly stupid this mythology really is.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
Just saw the proof video! This is not a matter of faith anymore! Thanks PZ, thanks mysterious dude! GOOD JOB!
Posted by: Ric | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
Hey PZ, can you delete that long bullshit post that John made?
Posted by: Eric | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
@ #373
That is only evidence for the strength of their beliefs. It's not evidence for the truth of their beliefs.
Posted by: Savagemutt | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
Very nice post. And you've handled the whole incident with remarkable restraint.
Posted by: Mohamed(real) | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
What a wild ride!
Posted by: Happy Girl 300 | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
The only sacrilege in this case is a possible waste of food calories. If it had been a jar of peanut butter, that would have been MUCH worse.
Posted by: Erasmussimo | July 24, 2008 3:12 PM
I have been following this brouhaha with mixed feelings. On the one hand, I agree that PZ Myers' actions have instructive value; sometimes it's salutary for somebody to blatantly challenge our assumptions in a flamboyant fashion. On the other hand, I am uncomfortable with deliberate attempts to hurt other people's feelings. Let's face it, Mr. Myers' actions do hurt the feelings of Catholics and are intended to do so. Does the educational value of Mr. Myers' actions outweigh the emotional hurt inflicted? I don't know. It is fundamental to human nature that nobody learns without some pain. The advance of civil rights in the 1960s took place only by inflicting some pain upon racists. It was justifiable because the pain they inflicted through their racism was greater than the emotional discomfort that was wrought upon them to change their ways. But does the diffuse injury to society inflicted by religion justify the specific emotional pain the Mr. Myers visits upon Catholics? I don't know.
My greatest concern, however, is not with the mainstream reaction to Mr. Myers' actions, but with the reactions from the wingnuts. There will surely be Catholics who react with ugly ferocity, and these few may further polarize the cultural response. Mr. Myers is taking a significant risk here; while I admire his courage, I fear that violence directed against him will polarize the situation and make healthy progress more difficult.
There is an opportunity for a positive result in all this: if members of the Catholic community firmly and loudly declare that the essence of Christianity demands that Catholics turn the other cheek and love Mr. Myers as much as they love themselves, then the nobler side of religion will be asserted and perhaps some progress will be made against the ignoble side of religion. At this point, the ball is in their court. The challenge has been placed upon them: is Catholicism a religion of love or a superstitious tribe? I retain some small optimism that perhaps the outcome will a happy one.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 3:12 PM
It's all just stuff. That says it all.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 3:12 PM
John (#355), thanks for the spam, but next time please just provide a link. Several screens of copying and pasting is a bit much.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 3:13 PM
PZ, that was one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read, thank you so much for this!
Congratulations on the desecration, I hope it leads to mass cracker killings all around the nation.
Posted by: drjimmy | July 24, 2008 3:13 PM
Well done, PZ. A wonderful essay and an appropriate final act to the drama.
Posted by: Mohamed | July 24, 2008 3:13 PM
What a wild ride!
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 3:13 PM
Or rather, replace it with a link. No censorship, it's just that no one's going to read it, hence it is so much spamming.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 3:13 PM
@John (www.catholic.com)
Come on, man! That was infantile. Am I posting the entire TimeCube page over at your blog? No, I did not think so... So why do you do it here?
Posted by: sQuee. | July 24, 2008 3:14 PM
Bravo. I generally thought all of this was well done and am quite pleased how the ending came about. There was definite proof that it occurred, although the cracker blends into the pages in the picture. You have to find the nail, then look for the cracker on the nail. I normally wouldn't have agreed with the nail, seemed a tad overboard, but made it very easy to see that there was indeed a dry, tasteless looking cracker at the end of said nail.
All in all, bravo.
Posted by: Sarcastro | July 24, 2008 3:14 PM
if you mean germany as a catholic nation 70 years ago, that's wrong, germany was (is) majority protestant (more then than now, as more secular germans have protestant than catholic background).
#1: Spain and Poland are both better contenders for what PZ was rattling on about.
#2: Look up the difference between 'majority' and 'plurality'. The latter is what Protestants in Germany are. The former is what they are not.
In fact, the single largest Christian denomination in Germany is Catholicism. Only when all Protestant denominations are added together do they outnumber the Catholics. And not by a whole lot.
Posted by: Joe | July 24, 2008 3:14 PM
The scene looks carefully staged what with the nail over two title pages that are facing us with the other trash off to the side. You are a schemer, PZ.
Posted by: sil-chan | July 24, 2008 3:15 PM
I think its time to impliment a maximum limit to the length of a post due to people like John. Here I was going along reading posts and BAM... A huge pile of words fell on me >.>
Posted by: Doubting Foo | July 24, 2008 3:15 PM
I agree with a few others above...you should have included the title page from Origin of Species...
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 3:15 PM
Fuck you, John.
Posted by: sQuee. | July 24, 2008 3:15 PM
Bravo. I generally thought all of this was well done and am quite pleased how the ending came about. There was definite proof that it occurred, although the cracker blends into the pages in the picture. You have to find the nail, then look for the cracker on the nail. I normally wouldn't have agreed with the nail, seemed a tad overboard, but made it very easy to see that there was indeed a dry, tasteless looking cracker at the end of said nail.
All in all, bravo.
Oh, and as a note: if a cracker is actually the body of someone (regardless of whom), Catholics are cannibals and should be thrown in jail. There have been a few cannibals in the past century who have claimed that they did it to become closer to God. Lovely, lovely religion you people have going on. Yeesh.
Posted by: Randy! | July 24, 2008 3:15 PM
Still working my way through the comments but wanted to get my "Bravo!" in here while the thread was still open.
I really like that any Catholic furbrains will have to try to read through the history of their religion before getting to the meat of the post. Perhaps one of them will get a bit of enlightenment...
Posted by: Rebecca Watson | July 24, 2008 3:16 PM
Just chiming in to add my "nicely done," PZ. Well-written and educational response.
Posted by: ihatevi | July 24, 2008 3:16 PM
#79 - LOL!!
Posted by: ErikFK | July 24, 2008 3:16 PM
#355 John: nice copy and paste job. Now please go preach your neighbor's cows - and don't forget to pray for them.
To the actual topic: I'm impressed. PZ gave the whole story a excellent final turn, I can identify myself with - though I'm certainly far more respectful of religions than he is.
Posted by: TS Loosli | July 24, 2008 3:16 PM
Well Done PZ. Let the religious beat thier chests and stand on their hind legs. Unlike real apes, they are nothing to fear.
Kudos,
TS
Posted by: Bachalon | July 24, 2008 3:17 PM
Well said, Professor. Thank you.
Posted by: Philip H. | July 24, 2008 3:18 PM
"Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanities' knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind."
If you actually read Christian Scripture, you will see Jesus encouraging his followers to do EXACTLY THIS. That fact that humans, in all our wonderful wisdom, ignore Jesus call and teaching, doesn't mean he isn't right. He ate, afterall, with tax collectors and prostitutes, some of the most reviled people of his day.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:18 PM
John, go touch yourself, you're annoying.
Posted by: Voltaire | July 24, 2008 3:19 PM
Quite possibly the most elegant essay I've read this year. Thank you, sir.
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 3:19 PM
Again with the copypasta, John?
Thanks for verifying you have nothing to contribute. I was going to ask you to discuss what you had posted, but now I see you're not really equipped for that sort of rational discussion.
PZ, could you please remove John's novels from the comments page? Thx.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 3:19 PM
In the great ledger sheet of Catholicism's virtues and vices, history would seem to trump optimism every time.
Posted by: qbsmd | July 24, 2008 3:19 PM
Does this count as art? You might be able to get someone to buy your trash can.
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 3:19 PM
It is appropriate that PZ destroyed books. Recall the library of Alexandria was burned by religious fanatics. I believe that the Catholic Church even canonized someone for the deed.
Posted by: Juan | July 24, 2008 3:20 PM
PZ is the best!
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 3:20 PM
@#393
Granted. This is why I stipulated that those professing the beliefs be eyewitnesses or have direct contact with eyewitnesses. I tend to believe eyewitness accounts when they are so strongly believed.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 3:20 PM
That is meaningless. It is just an abuse of the English language. What you are in effect saying is that it is both the same and different. That is simply nonsensical. What properties does it have after consecration that it did not have before ? If there are no physical differences then there is no difference. Did you not do science at school or something ? There is an important concept in science, that basically states if you cannot tell two things apart then they are identical.
Posted by: GAtheist | July 24, 2008 3:20 PM
Fuck, we need a block user option. Spammer StJohn is a shitbag.
Posted by: Cardinal Shrew | July 24, 2008 3:21 PM
PZ,
I too would like to add my sentiments before the thread gets too full. Well done!
Posted by: Adrienne | July 24, 2008 3:21 PM
Hey, I think I see the face of Jesus weeping in the banana peel. Seriously, though, I'm glad this is over. Enough of Wafergate.
Posted by: Anthony | July 24, 2008 3:21 PM
Am I the only one that thinks John's long ass post can be aptly characterized as WHITE NOISE?
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 3:21 PM
Someone's IP address needs to be banned.
Fucktard.
Posted by: lytefoot | July 24, 2008 3:22 PM
Wow... attacking FOUR sacred cows at once! The communion, the koran, the god delusion, and English grammar. I believe you meant to say "Humanity's knowledge," that is, the knowledge of just one humanity (say hooray to our friend, the collective noun!).
Just kidding with the spelling flame, of course--though if there's one thing that inflames my irrationality it's the desecration of the sacred apostrophe. Very good post, well written, showing excellent insight into the history of the issue--I only wish Xians showed as much insight into the history of their religion. Wanted to chime in and and that, ha ha, I won the betting pool around here, I suspected you'd throw it in the trash.
This whole thing started out as kind of childish, but it ended up fairly moving. Like a lot of your more thoughtful pieces, it ended up coming across as moving in the same way that a good church service does. (Note: I was raised Unitarian, this has shaped my perception of the way a church service Should Be. If you don't argue about it at least all the way home afterward, it wasn't any good.)
Good luck, PZ. Hope none of the violent crazies are also motivated. You might want to consider hiring a ninja.
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 3:22 PM
What kind of idiot is this? He did it again! 3 times now!
Killfile Dungeon!
Posted by: J.D. Hutton | July 24, 2008 3:22 PM
John:
tl;dr
Posted by: H.H. | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
Delete the spammer(s), please. It is clear that when pressed to think for themselves, they resort to drowning themselves in mind-numbing blocks of meaningless text. Fine, but no reason the rest of us need to drown as well.
Posted by: ryanm | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
fuckin' A. Bravo, PZ. Though significant on a symbolic level, what you have done is so trivial, no, of no import WHATSOEVER compared to the vile barbarism perpetrated in the name of Catholicism. I single that one out just because they're the only ones who give a fuck about this goddamn cracker, and they've been so gracious as to show through their recent comments that vile barbarism is apparently alive and well in the ranks of the faithful. Good luck, and Reason-speed.
Posted by: Atticus | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
Love it
Posted by: ThirtyFiveUp | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
As always, PZ is a teacher. And an accomplished writer. I did not know about the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 which led to repeated murders of Jews. Murdered because superstitious Christians believed bread could be Jesus.
By the way, I eagerly await publication of his book.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
"No way! Bananas have to be brown to taste right. Chiquita says so!"
All right, NOW we got blasphemy on our hands. Bananas are best when they have just a little green still on them. Only the fool in his heart says otherwise.
(Although browned bananas are still useful for making things like banana bread.)
Posted by: Kevin L. | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
You know, for all this gnashing of teeth over "where's the proof of consecration?" or "I thought this site was about SCIENCE and EVIDENCE" and "you're just accepting Myers' word on FAITH that it was real," whatever... There's one critical difference between accepting the word of, say, a priest, and accepting the word of PZ. PZ, unlike the priest, has demonstrated frequently and repeatedly that he is honest and credible, and, speaking for myself, I have no reason to doubt him now. Similarly, unlike, say, a religious zealout, Pharyngula enthusiasts, if faced with EVIDENCE that their trust was misplaced, will own up to their error.
A very nice post, PZ - a fitting way to end the madness. Now: more cephalopods, please! :)
Posted by: eguy | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
I love the Monty Python references. Although I disagree with your need provoke catholics I would agree with most of what you said. I mean death treats over a cracker. You can't make this stuff up.
Posted by: AaronSTL | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
Well played, PZ but I still think you should have copied some text from the Koran onto the cracker and fed it to a willing Jewish person...maybe along with some bacon and a good beer.
Posted by: Eric | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
@ #428
Yet in the case of Christianity you accept edited, translated, censored versions of second- or third-hand (or possibly more) eyewitness testimony.
One thing people are missing here is that there's two competing theories - that it was consecrated, or that it wasn't - and you need to compare the evidence for the two, not just demand evidence for one until it meets your expectations.
If you think it wasn't consecrated, present your evidence.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
The spammer is a sock puppet. He's used at least 3 names. I'm strongly against censorship, but I don't think deleting spam and deleting sock puppets is censorship.
Posted by: Exitus | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
Ye Gods, this 'John' bloke is getting rather annoying. To the Dungeon with him!
Exitus
Posted by: Jolly Bloger | July 24, 2008 3:24 PM
PZ, this insult will not stand. I can't believe you did something so horrible to the God Delusion! I expect an apology immediately.
http://jollybloger.blogspot.com/2008/07/pz-has-gone-too-far.html
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 3:24 PM
Come on, PZ! Spamming, morphing, insipidity, godbotting... this must be a record: The idiot got himself into Dungeon-worthy shape after a handful of posts!
Posted by: Minneapolitian | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
Thank you so much for doing this. You are a hero to anyone who actually uses their brain to think. Another reason for me to be proud of living in liberal Minneapolis is this happened right in my city! Ohhhh, you must plan something new!!!
Posted by: ryanm | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
fuckin' A. Bravo, PZ. Though significant on a symbolic level, what you have done is so trivial, no, of no import WHATSOEVER compared to the vile barbarism perpetrated in the name of Catholicism. I single that one out just because they're the only ones who give a fuck about this goddamn cracker, and they've been so gracious as to show through their recent comments that vile barbarism is apparently alive and well in the ranks of the faithful. Good luck, and Reason-speed.
Posted by: Melinda Dillon | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
Well done!!!
Posted by: gruggach | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
Way to go, PZ! I'm very happy with what you've done. You very eloquently hit the nail on the head.
Posted by: Hap | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
1) I see somebody found out how to cut and paste. How unfortunate.
2) This seems like an appropriate ending. Someone might learn something from it (it wasn't just to annoy people), or at least, know where you stand. Of course, the multithousand post threads indicate that there isn't very much willingness to listen or to learn anything, so the show goes on (sort of).
Although, realizing this, it sounds too much like the dialogue between the kid and Arnold in the desert scene in Terminator 2: "We're not going to make it, are we?"
Posted by: Chris P | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
Hopefully you will go back through your trash and recycle properly.
Otherwise best thread yet. Another step in dismantling the stupidity of gods.
Posted by: Chicago | July 24, 2008 3:26 PM
For all of you hoping for the long threads of catholics and religious, I laugh! Out of the first 100 I've read there was one, maybe a questionable two. The others, just a bunch of attention starved children, led by a man who is still hoping to get noticed. Bravo, bravo- Out of these post, all of the threads- you yourselves have accounted for 90% of your own grandstanding.
Posted by: Jochen | July 24, 2008 3:26 PM
I'd still say that turning the flesh of jesus into poop is more offensive. And that's what these catholics are doing every sunday! Unbelievable! Damn cannibals!
Posted by: Jay | July 24, 2008 3:26 PM
Well done. Kudos.
Posted by: Jolly Bloger | July 24, 2008 3:26 PM
PZ, this insult will not stand. I can't believe you did something so horrible to the God Delusion! I expect an apology immediately.
http://jollybloger.blogspot.com/2008/07/pz-has-gone-too-far.html
Posted by: ryanm | July 24, 2008 3:27 PM
fuckin' A. Bravo, PZ. Though significant on a symbolic level, what you have done is so trivial, no, of no import WHATSOEVER compared to the vile barbarism perpetrated in the name of Catholicism. I single that one out just because they're the only ones who give a fuck about this goddamn cracker, and they've been so gracious as to show through their recent comments that vile barbarism is apparently alive and well in the ranks of the faithful. Good luck, and Reason-speed.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | July 24, 2008 3:27 PM
Done with finesse and grace, Dr. Myers.
Posted by: Feshy | July 24, 2008 3:27 PM
Well played, PZ, well played.
Posted by: fontinalis | July 24, 2008 3:27 PM
Well played, sir. I raise a glass in your honor. Your words, both well chosen and articulated, almost made the closing image anticlimactic. Almost.
Posted by: Zar | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
I wish Catholics would make half the fuss over the Church's shameful, deadly policies regarding family planning in third-world countries as they do about snack desecration.
Destruction of a cracker: an outrage.
Death of Africans: whatev.
Andy:
Generally, the US is much less vigilant about proper waste disposal than Germany. We're pretty wasteful. Here, we recycle paper, cans and bottles, and not a lot else. Many recycling plants don't process assorted Verpackungen stuff. And I don't know of any sanitation department that handles biological waste; you have to take care of that yourself with a compost heap in the backyard (if you have a backyard, that is---if you live in an apartment, forget about it!). If you want to be eco-friendly, it requires a lot more effort on your part. It stinks.
I was amazed to find out how particular waste disposal was in Germany. I think it's great! I wish we did stuff like that, but I suppose it would cost a fair amount of money and we just don't have the public funds as the taxes are so much lower and all.
Posted by: the other Adam | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
I'd have desecrated a watermelon too (since they're yummy and in season) and a copy of Atlas Shrugged. Except that in my town, paper, banana peels and metal all go in different bins.
Posted by: Jack Picknell | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
In the paraphrased words of our Lord, forgive him Father, he does not know what he is doing. PZ I humbly suggest that you seriously consider repenting.
Remember that the God who made you and I both has said "I will repay".
Posted by: Chris Granade | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
Holy crap... what's the comment length cap? I like being able to post a length comment now and again, but BnotAfraid takes the cake for long comments. Then again, copy-and-pasting a comment is kind of cheating, no?
Posted by: kryptonic | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
Is that jesus' likeness I see there in the banana peel?
What's the character limit on this blog anyway? Whatever it is, it's too high.
Posted by: Mika H | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
Devastating.
Bravo, PZ.
I hope there's one more thing theists of all kind take home from this: hate or desire to hurt someone was never PZ's motivation nor goal. If you think so, or feel deeply hurt by this article, it's time to take off the blinders and do some serious soul searching.
Shame, though. It would've been great to time the desecration with the coming solar eclipse. ;)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/07/080722-solar-eclipse.html
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
This deserves a fucking Pulitzer.
Posted by: Aaron | July 24, 2008 3:29 PM
In the words of Brian:
You're all individuals!
Posted by: Kergillian | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
What? You DARE DESECRATE THE GOD DELUSION? I loved that book! And the Banana! What did it ever do to you?
That is an outrage!
No Soup for you!
I'll bet you wouldn't have the balls to do that to the Eucharist or the Quran... oh, wait... you did. Well then. Never mind.
Oh, and well said! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm having a sacred cow for lunch, and I think I'll have it with some bacon.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
Make ready the lacy, gently wafting curtains in the dungeon for John!
Posted by: cyborgsuzy | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
Hmm. Personally, I prefer recycling for the paper products, and composting for the coffee grounds, banana peels and crackers.
Posted by: SteadyEddy | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
#68 oops... "unrational" isn't even a word. I meant irrational or, better yet, unreasonable. I was in a hurry to break the top 100. PZ's much more eloquent than I am... which leads me to ask PZ... when can we look forward to a book of your thoughts on science and religion? Maybe see you for Sunday brunch at Q.Cumbers... again, well done PZ!
Posted by: Bert Chadick | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
You done 'dem crackers wrong, but why throw away a banana when it's just getting good.
PZ, You've been traveling a lot lately, and I hope you have been taking the bibles out of the rooms when you check out. I use them in my paper fired charcoal starter and they work great. Better than newspaper.
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
You're full of shit. Humility and sanctimony aren't compatible.Posted by: AGatMSI | July 24, 2008 3:31 PM
@ #450:
Epic Win!
Posted by: Dahan | July 24, 2008 3:31 PM
"Hmm... some smart guy. Talk about being totally stupid, I can only think of God's mercy toward this guy is going to be a baseball bat to his head so he finally gets it through that head of his that the Eucharist is Jesus."
Posted by both : someone221 and Interested reader.
Here's a clue for ya. If your going to use Sockpuppetry, try changing the words a little so we may think it's not the same person... god, you people really are dumb as a box of rocks aren't ya.
Posted by: Chicago | July 24, 2008 3:31 PM
For all of you hoping for the long threads of catholics and religious, I laugh! Out of the first 100 I've read there was one, maybe a questionable two. The others, just a bunch of attention starved children, led by a man who is still hoping to get noticed. Bravo, bravo- Out of these post, all of the threads- you yourselves have accounted for 90% of your own grandstanding.
Posted by: CalGeorge | July 24, 2008 3:31 PM
I hope that was an organic banana, PZ.
And shade-grown, fair-trade, organic coffee.
And please remember to recycle that paper!
Three cheers for the trashing and desecration of that moronic symbol of Catholic stupidity.
Posted by: onclepsycho | July 24, 2008 3:32 PM
Just wait until that strident Dawkins guy hears about this...
Posted by: Bob | July 24, 2008 3:32 PM
Amen PZ.
Posted by: Susannah | July 24, 2008 3:32 PM
"There can be no danger of excess in our care for this mystery, for "in this sacrament is recapitulated the whole mystery of our salvation"."
I think John has taken the bolded part to heart. But Pope Rat was wrong.
(Yes, I read the screed. At least, some of it. FSM help me!)
And, Bravo, PZ!
Posted by: Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA | July 24, 2008 3:32 PM
I guess it had to be anti-climatic. After all, I can't think of any possible way to be truly evil to a cracker.
P.S.: You're conclusion is the best thing I've read all year. Cheers.
Posted by: Todd | July 24, 2008 3:32 PM
Praise FSM!
Posted by: Chicago | July 24, 2008 3:33 PM
For all of you hoping for the long threads of catholics and religious, I laugh! Out of the first 100 I've read there was one, maybe a questionable two. The others, just a bunch of attention starved children, led by a man who is still hoping to get noticed. Bravo, bravo- Out of these post, all of the threads- you yourselves have accounted for 90% of your own grandstanding.
Posted by: Kergillian | July 24, 2008 3:33 PM
What? You DARE DESECRATE THE GOD DELUSION? I loved that book! And the Banana! What did it ever do to you?
That is an outrage!
No Soup for you!
I'll bet you wouldn't have the balls to do that to the Eucharist or the Quran... oh, wait... you did. Well then. Never mind.
Oh, and well said! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm having a sacred cow for lunch, and I think I'll have it with some bacon.
Posted by: eguy | July 24, 2008 3:33 PM
I love the Monty Python references. I disagree about how you approached this, being rude on purpose about meaningless things does not strike me as the right thing to do. I do agree that the responses are 50 times worse than any thing I would have imagined. I mean death threats over a cracker? You can not make this stuff up.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 3:33 PM
Next time, run a rusty nail through the douchebag spambot. What a waste of stem cells.
Posted by: Martin | July 24, 2008 3:33 PM
#310 Pete Rooke: Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
Now desecrating the Eucharist would have the same effect as desecrating that book and posting the evidence in glee.
Which just goes to show how incredibly stupid and silly your view of your cracker is. Your cracker is not the skin or flesh of a loved one, or anyone else. It's a cracker, that you fantasize you have transformed into something else by virtue of a medievalist superstitious ritual. In terms of reality, it is still a cracker, no matter what gibberish and hand-waving spell-casting some man in robes does over it.
Honestly, do you really think these cartoon analogies constitute impressive arguments?
Posted by: Dav Laurel | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Gratuitous and stupid. And that's coming from an agnostic who never received any formal religious instruction.
Posted by: Dave Godfrey | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
John you git, you owe me a new scroll wheel.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Hey John, do you really like using the "Holy Father's" words as so much garbage to gum up a forum's works?
Seems that you have a problem with committing sacrilege, at least according to your religion.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/
Posted by: Paul Hands | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Nice one, PZ!
I just hope this doesn't spur one or another set of nutters to actually take a ction against you or yours.....please be careful.
As for that Tony Philips nobhead (#329), he's wrong. Before learning to think for myself, I was brought up a catholic, and was an altar boy (not of my own volition). The consistency of the crackers varies remarkably with age/humidity etc. Some would indeed shatter, but some, especially newer ones, could be bent in half without breaking. We used to use them as micro-frisbees, and they wouldn't break.
Being a catholic is like having rabies when nearly everyone else has distemper, and only a few are healthy.
Posted by: JackC | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Contrary to other opinions, and assuming from the position of prominence that recent consumption had taken place, that banana was just about perfect.
JC
Posted by: Feshy | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Hey, what do you know. Another thing God perfectly designed a banana to do! ;)
Posted by: Tom | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Hard to grasp, but posts 419 and 457 were even more fucking ridiculous as post 482.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 3:35 PM
Psst, John - NO ONE IS READING ANYTHING YOU POST.
Posted by: ErikFK | July 24, 2008 3:35 PM
god and his army of Johns, StLukes, BNotAfraid etc. knows how to make a denial of service attack?
god, you have really impressed me - such allmightyness forces me to reconsider my atheism...
Posted by: ed | July 24, 2008 3:35 PM
Loud applause.Standing "O".For the article not the fracking cracker.I wonder if the cat-licks teach that part of their past on Sundays?
Posted by: Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA | July 24, 2008 3:35 PM
PZ, you'll soon be hearing from the United Church of the Sacred Banana Peel.
Posted by: Blaidd Drwg | July 24, 2008 3:36 PM
444
Just a cut-rate version of 666...
Posted by: ZorkFox | July 24, 2008 3:36 PM
Inspiring and illuminating. I'll be sharing this with friends.
Posted by: Helioprogenus | July 24, 2008 3:37 PM
This is brilliant. Here we are thinking of the most elaborate ways of desecrating this idiot sucking symbolic piece of bread, and PZ does the least labor intensive and most time saving method of cracker mutilation. As for the Quran and the God Delusion, that's an interesting touch. Nothing religious is sacred to rational, skeptical, and actual free thought.
We should all just send in pictures of us desecrating something religious and have PZ post them up. Imagine how frenzied and insane these religious fucks would get. It wouldn't just be limited to catholics either, but other christians, jews, muslims, hindus, buddhists, jains, etc.
Posted by: ix | July 24, 2008 3:37 PM
Well written Professor Myers.
If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I'd drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue.
That sentence was gold.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 3:37 PM
Also, banana peels tend to brown rapidly when they have been separated from the rest of the banana.
Also, please stop whining about recycling the paper. This was a symbolic gesture. I'm sure PZ recycles every other scrap of paper he comes into contact with. Two trashed books aren't going to destroy the world.
(Nor a trashed cracker, OH!)
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:37 PM
Yea cuz you know, copy pasting annoyingly long stuff written by a church guy and pissing off everyone on a blog is the best way to convert them to Jesus, see.
Stop being such an anus.
Posted by: Jason | July 24, 2008 3:37 PM
Well, its done. Looks like those Witchita Indian spirits gan finally rest now.
Posted by: the other Adam | July 24, 2008 3:38 PM
Never mind the LHC, I think John Paul's comments are going to collapse into a singularity that will swallow the Earth.
Posted by: doug | July 24, 2008 3:38 PM
Jesus Christ, TheAnswer, that's a long comment.
Posted by: S.Scott | July 24, 2008 3:38 PM
How come there aren't any noodles in there?
Posted by: dhonig | July 24, 2008 3:38 PM
The experiment is not really over for another three days. Also, instead of covering the garbage can with a lid, can you use a large rock?
Posted by: Phyllis | July 24, 2008 3:39 PM
Bravo Professor Meyers!
Posted by: Parsnip Money | July 24, 2008 3:39 PM
John has turned into 'GlobalWarmingFraud'
WTF?
Posted by: kryptonic | July 24, 2008 3:39 PM
Is that jesus' likeness I see there in the banana peel?
What's the character limit on this blog anyway? Whatever it is, it's too high.
Posted by: Buzz Buzz | July 24, 2008 3:39 PM
Wow. I totally called the special addition.
Or, well, I was damned close. I was thinking origin of species, but the god delusion was better option. I think that was about the best way you could have done that.
Maybe that'll get it through their thick skulls.
Or more probably it just wont.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:39 PM
John? Listen up you fanatic. I got something to tell you.
that's all cute words, but back in 2003 the Pope was a vegetable. There's no way he would've written all that. It was written by the puppetmasters behind the poor walking cadaver, okay?
Posted by: tsg | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
The amount of evidence required to conditionally believe an assertion is true is dependent on two things: how unlikely the claim is to be true; and how important it is to be correct. In this case, the answer is "not very" to both. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether or not it is a consecrated cracker. The intolerance demonstrated by the believers is the entire point.
You're learning, grasshopper.
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
For all of you hoping for the long threads of catholics and religious, I laugh! Out of the first 100 I've read there was one, maybe a questionable two. The others, just a bunch of attention starved children, led by a man who is still hoping to get noticed. Bravo, bravo- Out of these post, all of the threads- you yourselves have accounted for 90% of your own grandstanding.
Posted by: Baba | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
That's a sorry excuse for a desecration, and not even original. You should thank God that a tedious lack of imagination isn't a mortal sin.
Posted by: Josh G | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
Very well done! Great message, thank you for sharing.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
Ben, PZ doesn't believe that the truth is relative. No serious Secular Humanist does. PZ wouldn't be a scientist if he didn't view approximate truth as highly important to himself and others. The whole deal here is: your religious truth claim is false. The idea that those wafers are a dead Jewish man is groundless. There is no legitimate evidence for it. He's not a relativist, you are in insisting that he should respect a false claim as truth.
Posted by: Who Cares | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
@GlobalCooling Fraud: Next time just post a link. Then you might have people actually reading what you say.
Posted by: Jim | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
Just to add to the pile on the thread:
OMGZ!11 UR GOIN TUH HAY-UHL!1!
Love you, PZ. Keep up the good work. :D
Posted by: the strangest brew | July 24, 2008 3:41 PM
#406
'Thou shalt not spam bullshite', whether it be popery or blusterings of a mindless clone.
When all the howling, gnashing of teeth, pontification and squealing is done tis just a cracker...live with it...!
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 24, 2008 3:41 PM
RE #482: Another threat on your life; it appears someone is trying to bore you to death.
Posted by: Canuck | July 24, 2008 3:41 PM
What is a circumcised heart? I thought I knew about all of the strange religious rituals in the West. Sheesh. Is the heart's foreskin sensitive? Inquiring minds want to know.
Posted by: Hap | July 24, 2008 3:41 PM
John seems to be implementing a DOS attack. You might want to block him or at least shrink his comments (disemvoweling, etc.), but YMMV.
Posted by: Phyllis | July 24, 2008 3:42 PM
Bravo!
Posted by: Jason | July 24, 2008 3:42 PM
And isn't all this Catholic spam the equivalent of an atheist making a point in a debate, followed by a Christian covering their ears, closing their eyes, and quoting scripture loudly and incessantly in order to block out reason and logic?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | July 24, 2008 3:42 PM
Wonderfully understated desecration. Your preliminary remarks told the whole story.
I add my desire to see the remarks of John Boy of our copy/paste deleted. FWIW, I never read any post that is longer than a screen until I see who wrote it. And then, I only read the long posts of the regulars.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
Seriously, you copy-pasters of long-winded bullshit. Fuck off. You should be banned for this crap.
Posted by: Jim | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
OMGZ!11 UR GOIN TUH HAY-UHL!1!
Love you, PZ. Keep up the good work. :D
Posted by: Soybomb | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
Looks fitting to me. A cracker doesn't need an elaborate disposal.
Posted by: Buzz Buzz | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
I can't even follow the conversation because all of the concentrated crazy that's flying around in here.
Posted by: Colin M | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
Chicago @462:
"For all of you hoping for the long threads of catholics and religious, I laugh! Out of the first 100 I've read there was one, maybe a questionable two."
Unfortunate for you that your post is right after BnotAfraid's post filled with 60+ paragraphs of Catholic dogma & apologetics.
Posted by: Kristina | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
I hope it IT IS FINISHED. PZ what is happening to your SCIENCE BLOG...come on..is this something new that you going to do from now on...BORONG BORING BORING...I mean how many THANK YOU GREAT POST do you need...I feel like I am with a buch of morons from youtube...we hate atheists...no we hate christians...no we hate hamburgers...you're an idiot...no you are...i hate you...no i hate you...WTF
Posted by: mr-zero | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
wtf stmatthew - haven't you heard of links!
Z
Posted by: alex | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
BANalso, massive kudos PZ.
Posted by: Umilik | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
Beautiful.
Just beautiful, Dr. Myers.
Pure poetry.
It gave me goosebumps.
Posted by: -R | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
PZ, will you PLEEAAASSSEEE disemvowel all but the first posting of screed that keeps getting posted? It's taking up like half the page.
Posted by: Dirk | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
Skimming past the novels... there actually is a Magisterium? I totally thought Philip Pullman made that up!
Posted by: db0 | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
Where is your god now?
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
I love how the Christians on here deny that it's even a real "consecrated" wafer.
How the hell would they recognize one if they mixed it up in a bag of regular wafers? That's the whole point--this whole so-called miracle of the eucharist is nonsense.
Posted by: chrisD | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
Thanks for the birthday present, PZ! You couldn't have picked a better day!
Posted by: AndrewG | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
John, what the fuck is wrong with you? Are your feelings so hurt that you cannot type? Relax my friend everything will be OK. Breath in ... breath out.
HAVE A CRACKER!
Posted by: Righteous Bubba | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
I am disappointed that you didn't have a tiny black hood, crate, and electrical cables handy.
Posted by: Giljorak | July 24, 2008 3:45 PM
BLAHBLAHBLAH DUH EUCHACRISPIA
Of His Uselessness Pope Whats Its Face
To The Biatches, Prudes, and Deamons
Men and Women in the Secreted Life
And All the Lay Faithbul
On the Euchacrisp in its Relationship to the Chruch
CHAPTER ONE
THE MYSTERY OF BAKING
Dude, it's a frackin' cracker.
CONCLUSION
YUMMY
Pass the spray cheese please.
Given in Rome, at Saint Nowhere's, on 23 July, Thursday, in the year 2008, the uselessness of my Pontificate, the Year of the Rosey Palm.
Posted by: Hessenroots | July 24, 2008 3:45 PM
@ 310
OK then Pete, lets see what we have here:
1) Suppose you were a milkman with rotting teeth and cankerous lips..."
The mythical milkman is entrusted and payed to deliver the milk to paying customers. The disgusting behavior you suggest violates that trust and poses a possible long term health risk. You suggest PZ, by his actions, is akin to this milkman.
The only part of this analogy that fits is that someone was offended in the end. If that's your point well then, bravo. You've pointed out, rather obtusely, that someone is offended. There is no question of that, nor is that in question. Where is the violated trust? Risking the health of others?...
2) "Suppose your are an embalmer. You are busy embalming a person for an open coffin ceremony and you decide to pilfer there lush locks of blonde hair..."
As in your first analogy, there is an underlying level of trust involved. Much like the milkman story the 'victims' are unaware until after the fact. You also allude to PZ's 'theft' and possible proft. Again, there has been no violation of trust. He's not exactly been quiet or secretive about the situation nor did he steal anything. As for your point on profiting from the act, I'm unsure if he's payed by Seed for this blog. If he is then yes, you are correct in that aspect of the analogy (yet at the same time, whats your point?), otherwise the only similarity is the offended victim in the end.
"3) Young ladies like to wear an item of clothing called a mini-skirt these days..."
I hope I'm not the only one you lost with this sad little tale. You're suggesting that wearing a mini-skirt increases the chances of rape (which is mind boggling but I'm playing along)...so are you saying the Catholic church has left itself vulnerable, thus incited this 'attack'? To what end and once again, what's your point?
"he has since been roped into desecrating the Koran"
Actually if you dig a bit into his blog you'll find that he's alluded to it more then once in the past. The piles of emails and replies he's been getting isn't the cause.
"he is still as culpable as someone who chooses to attack say the more benign and watered down religions of Quakerism/Unitarian-Universalism"
I doubt anyone would deny that (watered down and benign, nice!). It's not whom is the target but why they're a target. The whole point of this exercise isn't about whom is being 'picked on'...if you've taken that away from this you're completely missing the point, not to mention victimizing yourself.
4) Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
Yes, it would have the same effect in that someone would be offended in the end. The point being made here is that sacred symbols, rites and rituals are silly and powerless beyond those whom hold them sacred. The difference here, which may or may not matter, is that the book is made of flesh and we're talking about biscuits and paper books. The concept of grief and mourning a loved one and treating the remains of that loved one with decency is a bit more universal then suggesting biscuit = jesus. The mere idea of bounding a book in the flesh of a loved one would be enough to offend a lot of people of varying faiths and backgrounds, no further disregard needed.
Overall, if the only point you were trying to make is that people are offended, you've managed to succeed (in the most obtuse and roundabout way possible). There's no question that people are offended, no ones trying to say people aren't...so what's your point, Pete?
Posted by: NotAFuckTard | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
Ah, so this is why all the trolls left the other thread.
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...this is gonna be FUN!
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
"FWIW, I never read any post that is longer than a screen until I see who wrote it. And then, I only read the long posts of the regulars."
I have a general rule that anything worth saying can be said in what can be seen on the screen at anyone time. If it goes on longer than that it either needs to be edited, split up or links given to where more a more detailed discussion can take place. Like all rules, there are times when the rule should be ignored.
Posted by: Jack Rawlinson | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
Great piece, PZ. I was hoping you'd take the opportunity to really spell out why these deranged primitives and their absurd fetishes deserve to be disrespected, and so you have.
As for the outraged Catholic (and other) loonies - get over it and grow a goddamned mind, you absurd clowns. You call PZ's behaviour immature and yet look at you. Look at you. Get the damned logs out of your eyes, eh?
Posted by: bullet | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
Just one quibble:
...the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry was a whole 70 years ago, after all...
Ummm, Serbia?
Posted by: MrMarkAZ | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
Thank you, PZ.
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
Seems that godbots are in full-speed copypasta mode.
.
Ban the Troll!!
.
Posted by: LaTomate | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
PZ, you da man.
Posted by: Iason Ouabache | July 24, 2008 3:47 PM
Bravo, good sir! I'm just disappointed that you didn't go with a blender instead of the trash can.
Posted by: Cardinal Shrew | July 24, 2008 3:47 PM
Don't submissions require a valid email address? Can't we block them or the IP or something. I have liked not having to register but if the little copy and paste bitches are going to ruin everything, I will register.
Posted by: ThirtyFiveUp | July 24, 2008 3:47 PM
As always, PZ is a teacher. And an accomplished writer. I did not know about the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 which led to repeated murders of Jews. Murdered because superstitious Christians believed bread could be Jesus.
By the way, I eagerly await publication of his book.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 3:48 PM
You said nothing is sacred PZ. Interesting that you bring up the Jews. Not long ago atheists like yourself, and yes they were atheists so don't try your usual canards, killed 6 million of them. They did it scientifically. You would do it again if we were the ones you could kill. Don't claim otherwise since you believe nothing is sacred.
Atheists do not believe life is sacred. They don't believe in goodness, truth, or beauty. Those things are meaningless to them. For them there is no meaning. Human beings have no intrinsic worth, so in a way you encourage death threats by your own philosophy. How ironic. Even though you know that no Catholic would harm a hair on your little head. I cannot say the same for how atheists treat us.
I find your little exercise pathetic. Your justifications are drivel. You just wanted to hurt people. There was no desire to "teach" or give "wisdom." Please spare us such lies. Like most bigots you are filled with mindless hate. That is it in a nutshell: you hate us.
In the end you have only been preaching to your choir of sycophants. No one has changed their mind because of what you have done. In fact you simply confirmed in our minds the fact that atheists are vicious hateful bigots. And you wonder why people won't vote for an atheist for President! Just look in the mirror for the answer to that. Your actions have brought shame to your school, profession, and family. You are a sad little man devoid of decency. People don't admire you, they pity you.
Posted by: firemancarl | July 24, 2008 3:48 PM
Thanks PZ. Great read. My grandfather on my moms side we all Cherman Juden. his entire family was hunted down during WWII. He survived the war, hiding in Berlin of all places. It is "nice" to know that the hatred of the Juden started eons before the Nazis took over. I have never understood religion, especially the loony Catholics (and Muslims).
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 3:48 PM
I'll come back to read the comments after the Catholic spammer is thrown in the Killfile Dungeon. I'm wearing out my Page Down key to get past the books he's publishing here.
Posted by: stogoe | July 24, 2008 3:48 PM
Hey everyone! Pete's got a Necronomicon! Sweet!
Lemme see if I can remember how it goes...
Klaatu... Verata... Um... Necktie? Nectar? Somebody help me out here.
Posted by: cuervo | July 24, 2008 3:49 PM
Yes. Good post, although...you were finally getting going in the last paragraph...work that up to a full post would you? You know, let yourself go.
[nice add with the God Delusion BTW]
Posted by: S.Scott | July 24, 2008 3:49 PM
That's God spam is pissin' me off! What an asshole ...
Posted by: kent | July 24, 2008 3:49 PM
Serbia is not Catholic lol.
Serbia is Orthodox.
Croatia is Catholic.
Posted by: CLM | July 24, 2008 3:49 PM
So if Catholics are eating the body of Jesus doesn't that make them cannibals?
Posted by: bullet | July 24, 2008 3:50 PM
#561:
Couldn't just post a link? Too dumb?
Posted by: Greg | July 24, 2008 3:50 PM
In the immortal words of Bender,
OH... YOUR... GOD.
Posted by: rich fraser (richmanwisco) | July 24, 2008 3:51 PM
Excellent work.
Posted by: Mika H | July 24, 2008 3:51 PM
Very nice, reducing the wise words of your pope to a cheap DDoS attack.
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 24, 2008 3:52 PM
"Not long ago atheists like yourself, and yes they were atheists so don't try your usual canards, killed 6 million of them."
Got a historical question for ya: what the slogan on the Wehrmacht's belt-buckle translate to in English?
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | July 24, 2008 3:52 PM
You who are lately GlobalWarmingFraud, are a one trick pony. While you are mildly troublesome (all the extra scrolling, long refresh time) you are fortunately easily ignored.
Posted by: Friso | July 24, 2008 3:52 PM
Excellent article, and precisely the throwaway treatment this deserves. Well done.
Posted by: ix | July 24, 2008 3:52 PM
In light of the spam, perhaps it would be a good idea for user posts greater than 500 characters to be cut off at the character limit, and a 'read more' JavaScript URL appended to it for expanding the rest of their message.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:52 PM
@CLM: S'what we claim and what folks like Dr. J thinks. BTW, Dr. J. I believe in goodness, love and beauty. I see it in the people I love, the wonderous world around me, the universe that we're part of and I don't need your imaginary friend to be moved by the grace of the universe.
Science is beautiful.
Posted by: Tom | July 24, 2008 3:53 PM
Let's see--climate change is a fraud, but it is in fact true that in July of 2008 PZ Myers put a nail though the actual flesh of a first-century peasant from an obscure backwater of the Roman Empire.
Riiiiiiiiiiight.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 3:53 PM
I have only read a few comments in this thread. Reading the bazillion comments in the other threads has given me a migraine. Please forgive me if I bring up something that has already been mentioned.
It is my prediction that catholics will now claim that it could not have been a consecrated Jebus Cracker. They cannot deal with the fact that their imaginary friend will not do unspeakable harm to PZ, so....since PZ will not be stricken down by a bolt of lightening within the next few days, they will see it as proof that the Jebus Cracker was not a concecrated one.
They have to do something to make themselves feel safe again. They will invent a way out, a loophole. After an initial outrage they will begin to convince themselves and each other that it was not a consecrated jebus cracker, and they will wrap themselves in their psychological security blanket once more. Their idolatry will continue and they will think their little Jebus idols/crackers, are safe and sound. (Although they may do strip searches to make sure no evil Atheists have come to Mass to smuggle out Jebus crackers.)
Hopefully, this nonsense will make at least a few people take a good, hard look at their religion and admit that it's all a crock of hooey invented by humans to control other humans. That's my hope anyway.
A message to the catholics who are in emotional agony over this issue. I am sorry you are in pain. I hope that someday you find a path to reason and no longer allow superstition to cause you such suffering. It bothers me that you are sad, I don't like to see suffering, even if it is self-induced and based on delusional thoughts. Just as I wish I could flip a switch and fix mentally ill patients and remove their irrational fear and agony, I wish I could flip a switch and remove yours. I cannot do that for you though. Only you can flip that switch.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 3:53 PM
I think John is about to have himself reported to his ISP for denial of service attacks, yes?
It's curtains for you, John. Lacy, gently wafting curtains.
(Yeah, I know I said it already. I'm enjoying the fact that I have a chance to use that line.)
Posted by: Elf Eye | July 24, 2008 3:53 PM
Quick way to get past godbot spam in Mozilla Firefox. Use 'find' feature, type in number of what would be the next comment. Leaps right past the spam. A more permanent solution to the problem (PZ, are you listening): dungeon!
Posted by: Jack Rawlinson | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Great piece, PZ. I was hoping you'd take the opportunity to really spell out why these deranged primitives and their absurd fetishes deserve to be disrespected, and so you have.
As for the outraged Catholic (and other) loonies - get over it and grow a goddamned mind, you absurd clowns. You call PZ's behaviour immature and yet look at you. Look at you. Get the damned logs out of your eyes, eh?
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Fr. J, John, chicago, Global Warming Fraud and what not, go fuck a fucking cracker, and stop spamming the threads. Brainless gits.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Fixed.
Posted by: Enshoku | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
PZ for the love of all that is good and sacred... STOP THE ASSHAT SPAMMER
Posted by: Saint Bubba | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
May God have mercy on your soul.
Posted by: Maria | July 24, 2008 2:03 PM
"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good."
You parody yourselves.
Posted by: Alexander Treseder | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
copy and paste attack!
Posted by: Roman Werpachowski | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Dear PZ:
The XIXth century is long past. I give you some points for trying, but zero for style.
Posted by: Sili | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
Sic frecat crustulum.
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
@stogoe:
Are you talking of Klaatu Barada Nikto?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaatu_barada_nikto
Because that is not a Lovecraft reference. It is cool as well, though. Maybe you are thinking of Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu
Posted by: imr90 | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
These people were responsible for a 1000 year long dark age. They will never give up trying to bring it back.
Posted by: Thomas R. Holtz, Jr. | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
@"Fr.J"
I recognize that God is simply a human construct. I am an atheist.
Yet I:
a. believe in goodness
b. belive in truth
c. belive in beauty
d. consider these things meaningful (indeed, among the most meaningful things in life)
e. recognize that many additional things have meaning.
Thus, your statement is negated by the evidence. QED.
Additionally, I doubt you are in fact an ordained priest. I am willing to sign my name to the above statement in this public forum; are you willing to do the same?
Posted by: JHJEFFERY | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
I guess we won't know the outcome of this for another three days . . .
At least the cracker has zero grams of Trans(substantiation)fat.
Well done, PZ.
Posted by: Ghost of Minnesota | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
Adding The God Delusion was a stroke of brilliance. Bravo, Dr. Myers.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
Yes, a good prediction because they did. At comment #200 though, PZ posted a video proof. But it was most likely lost in the mass (ahaha) of comments.It's worth reposting. THIS IS THE ABDUCTION OF THE GLUTEN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHPZFsGrt-Y
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
Rayven sez:
It is my prediction that catholics will now claim that it could not have been a consecrated Jebus Cracker.
They're already headed down that road.
Posted by: MicroZealous | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
Re "Chicago", "ClimateChange Fraud", et al:
I note the revealing parallels between religiosity and anti-science attitudes. Denial is not just a lake in South America . . .
Posted by: ErikFK | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
#569: Atheists do not believe life is sacred. They don't believe in goodness, truth, or beauty. Blah blah blah
Of course not. We eat babies at breakfast, admire only people like Stalin and terrorists and, of course, burn religious people when we're bored and have no more cracker at hand.
Please move to the moon. You'll be nearer to your god - and far from his victims.
Posted by: hhabilis | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
What's really ironic is that Jesus Himself said: "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man [that is, Jesus] will be forgiven..." (Mt 12:32) Maybe the hypocrites ought to read their own Book.
Posted by: Paul W. | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
To the troll spamming the thread with repeats of long nonsense...
Do be aware that what you're doing is not just tacky, but a crime. It's called a "denial of service attack" and it's legally far more serious than stealing a cracker.
Also, some of us are pretty good with computers, and can probably figure out where you live.
PZ can just delete your posts, by the way. He has that kind of godlike power over comments and crackers.
Posted by: Parsnip Money | July 24, 2008 3:57 PM
Oh thank Jeebus, Fr. J is back.
how many times do we have to tell you that Nazi Germany did not kill people in the name of Atheism, but in the name of Nazi Germany!
Even if what you claim to be true was true, it doesn't negate the fact that millions more have been killed in the name of your imaginary sky-being!
Posted by: Jaap Weel | July 24, 2008 3:57 PM
I think you desperately need some updates to the comment system. First of all, limit comments to a certain size, may 1 kilobyte or so. Second, you may want to consider using a comment system like Disqus that lets people vote on comments, so that interesting comments will actually be discoverable among the quotations from encyclicals and the like.
Posted by: Tom | July 24, 2008 3:57 PM
Nice one, stogoe #572.
Posted by: Patrick | July 24, 2008 3:57 PM
Bravo
Posted by: HC Grindon | July 24, 2008 3:58 PM
Bravo, Professor Myers, bravo! The last paragraph after the picture really says it all. Thank you for your voice of reason throughout this silliness known as Crackergate.
Posted by: bullet | July 24, 2008 3:58 PM
kent(#575):
Orthodox is Catholic. That's why there's a modifier for Roman Catholic.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 3:58 PM
See #569 from Fr. J Shithead. (The number may change after the Catholic spam is deleted.)
Godwin's Law: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Posted by: nullifidian | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
Why?
Posted by: The Pope | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
Of His Holiness Pope John Paul II
To The Bishops, Priests, and Deacons
Men and Women in the Consecrated Life
And All the Lay Faithful
On Spamming
HEY ASSHOLE! KNOCK IT OFF YOU DOUCHE! I wanna read these comments so I can get back to buggering some choir boys.
Sheesh.
XOXOXO
Da Pope (for shizzle!)
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
cosmology@yahoo.com ?
Is that your email or something?
Posted by: Bob Kowalski | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
The best that I can say???
God Almighty, how I wish I had written that!
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
Fr. J,
You are a dumbass.
Atheism can't motivate anyone to do anything, it's a mere absence of belief. Religion on the other hand represents affirmative beliefs which can in fact motivate people to do terrible things.
Nazism was just like a religion. Dogmatic, irrational, and hostile to any dissent.
You simply cannot accept that human beings can be decent, free, loving and happy without believing in horseshit.
Also, you have not once demonstrated that your god even exists. You have a contempt for the truth and reality that is mind-boggling.
Posted by: MicroZealous | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
Re "Chicago", "ClimateChange Fraud", et al:
I note the revealing parallels between religiosity and anti-science attitudes. Denial is not just a lake in South America . . .
Posted by: W.C.Walker | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Religious controversies are always more productive of more acrimony & irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Geo. Washington, letter to Edw. Newenham, 6-2 1792 200 plus years later it's no different.
Posted by: writzer | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
John, Benotafraid, JohnPaul2weloveyou ...
No matter how many words are used to explain the irrational, it's still irrational. It's still ... just a cracker.
Posted by: Irene | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Are your actions and words representative of the 8th rate university you teach at? So anyway, why did you leave Temple? Or were you run out of town?
Posted by: Hal in Howell MI (not far from Hell, MI) | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Excellent essay, PZ. Thank you. Sorry you felt it necessary to use books (I guess books are as close to "sacred" I get, except for Bach and Beethoven.) At least the books were not unique and can easily be replaced. So, no harm, no foul.
This entire episode has proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that there is only a thin vernier separating so-called religious mores from the threat of religious violence.
Posted by: Gary | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
An English copy of the Koran (Qu'ran) is not the true Koran. To really do the job right, you need an Arabic version.
Posted by: lurker_above | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Haha. This is going well. Bravo, PZ.
Posted by: jl | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Jesus should be used to being pierced by nails.
I'll lift a beer to you tonight PZ
Posted by: mostlywater | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
An appropriate end to a nontroversy.
Posted by: Ferin | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
Interesting choice tossing the god delusion pages in there too.
I don't entirely agree with what you did, but I guess I can understand it.
I just hope that people'll learn something from all of this silliness.
Posted by: Tony | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
You're my new idol PZ, for real, you're the man. Cheers from Finland! :-)
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
You lying bastard.Posted by: alex | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
PZ! POPE KNOWS HOW TO USE INTERNET!
Posted by: Sven DIMilo | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
Loathe as I am to enter the Land of Double Posts (and Triple, etc.), especially since I earlier promised to no longer pay any attention to the whole Ineffable Magical Cracker scene, I...cannot...help pointing out that, of course, sentences 2, 3, and 4 quoted above do not remotely follow from #1. And #1, while literally true (since nothing is sacred) is as close to wrong as something literally true can get."Father" J., you are wrong from top to bottom. I know how you feel about personal insults, and so I will avoid them while pointing out that you have not paid the slightest bit of attention to anything anyone else has posted in response to your bullshit. Aaaah, screw it: you suck, asshole.
You and Pete "False Analogy" Rooke would be banned for inane thick-skulled slagging if I were the owner of the blog, and the fact that PZ leaves your crap up and allows you to post the same shit again and again is just evidence of the bend-over-backwards-to-be-fair kind of guy he is. Nobody got hurt by the little rusty-nail demonstration--not you, nobody. Please quit whining.
Posted by: JoshH | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
*Gnashes teeth loudly and angrily*
Posted by: Irene | July 24, 2008 4:02 PM
Are your actions and words representative of the 8th rate university you teach at? So anyway, why did you leave Temple? Or were you run out of town?
Posted by: jl | July 24, 2008 4:02 PM
Jesus should be used to being pierced by nails.
I'll lift a beer to you tonight PZ
Posted by: Parsnip Money | July 24, 2008 4:02 PM
Hey look, John has added 'Nancy Pelosi' and 'Hussein Obama' to his ranks of intense paste lovers.
Posted by: writzer | July 24, 2008 4:02 PM
John, Benotafraid, JohnPaul2weloveyou ...
No matter how many words are used to explain the irrational, it's still irrational. It's still ... just a cracker.
Posted by: stogoe | July 24, 2008 4:03 PM
Alas, the joining of the two is not my idea but Sam Raimi's, in Army of Darkness.
Posted by: Zaphod | July 24, 2008 4:03 PM
> W.C.Walker said -
> Religious controversies are always more productive of
> more acrimony & irreconcilable hatreds than those which
> spring from any other cause. Geo. Washington, letter to
> Edw. Newenham, 6-2 1792 200 plus years later it's no
> different.
I like Franklin's take on it:
"Indeed, when religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people quarrel about victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either among them.
-- Benjamin Franklin"
Posted by: Steve | July 24, 2008 4:04 PM
Absolutely brilliant. PZ, I only wish I could have put together such and EXCELLENT piece of prose. Complete. Accurate. Fair. And of course very witty!
So many have already offered you the same praise I wish to offer. Others have used the "copy / paste" function to the point it should be banned...All I will add is that I, too, will hoist a glass in your honor tonight!
Posted by: Justin | July 24, 2008 4:04 PM
Holy Jesus Christ, people.
Religions suck. Do you know how stupid you're all sounding?
IT IS JUST A CRACKER. EFFING MOLECULES. BAKED.
Cheers PZ Myers, you're awesome.
Posted by: fafnir | July 24, 2008 4:04 PM
I never figured Jesus'd show up in anything less than a Double Stuff.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 4:04 PM
PZ said: Fortunately, Catholicism has mellowed with age -- the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry was a whole 70 years ago, after all -- but the sentiment still lingers.
Did you read that, Fr. J?
Posted by: Baba | July 24, 2008 4:04 PM
How Mao of you!
Posted by: blf | July 24, 2008 4:05 PM
Pee Zed is well aware of St John the Copy Pasting Annoyer and is working on the problem (see the comments in the Roy Zimmerman thread after this one), so the posts asking him to do something about it are, in a sense, just as much spam as the bishop's blatterings.
Posted by: sailor | July 24, 2008 4:05 PM
Great move. Get the whole bunch of them running to PZ over a cracker and then let go with both barrels about the nature of this rubish where they are all sure to read it.
I think the nail was a bit over the top, the garbage bin perfectly apropriate and the final advise:
"God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanities' knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind."
worthy of more permanent publication.
Posted by: E.V. | July 24, 2008 4:06 PM
"I'm going to raise a glass of Laphroaig in toast"
Man, do you know how to induce Single Malt envy. (pout)
Posted by: Female God | July 24, 2008 4:07 PM
May God have mercy on your soul.
Posted by: Maria | July 24, 2008 2:03 PM
#2
It is done.
Posted by: H.H. | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
#3
Well done.
Posted by: FormerMilitary | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
#4
Well this is going to be epic.
Posted by: Tucker | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
#5
PZ: My gin and tonic will be hoisted up in your name tonight.
Posted by: Anthony | July 24, 2008 2:06 PM
#6
Well, if you thought the deluge of email was bad now! :)
Thanks for pointing out that nothing should be held sacred.
Posted by: JSorrell | July 24, 2008 2:08 PM
#7
Requiescat in pace, Crustum Christi.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 24, 2008 2:08 PM
#8
Well said PZ. Wish I could think of something more to add.
Posted by: Cafeeine | July 24, 2008 4:07 PM
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1465
MYERS DESECRATES THE EUCHARIST
July 24, 2008
University of Minnesota professor Paul Z. Myers made good on his pledge to desecrate the Eucharist today. According to his statement on the subject, "I pierced it [the Host] with a rusty nail (I hope Jesus's tetanus shots are up to date). And then I simply threw it in the trash."
Saying he did not want to "single out just the cracker," Myers also tore pages from the Koran along with a few pages from Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and nailed them to the Host. He then said, "They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. (His emphasis.) Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet."
Catholic League president Bill Donohue responded as follows:
"A formal complaint against Myers has already been made. What he did--in both word and deed--constitutes a bias incident, as defined by the University of Minnesota. The policy says that 'Expressions of disrespectful bias, hate, harassment or hostility against an individual, group or their property because of the individual or group's actual or perceived race, color, creed, religion...can be forms of discrimination. Expressions vary, and can be in the form of language, words, signs, symbols, threats, or actions that could potentially cause alarm, anger, fear, or resentment in others...even when presented as a joke.'
"The University must now take action and apply the appropriate sanction. We are contacting the president, Board of Regents and the Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action Office at the school, as well as Minnesota's governor and both houses of the state legislature; the Catholic community in Minnesota is also being contacted. Moreover, we are also contacting Muslim groups nationwide.
"It is important for Catholics to know that the University of Minnesota will not tolerate the deliberate destruction of the Eucharist by one of its faculty. Just as African Americans would not tolerate the burning of a cross, and Jews would not tolerate the display of swastikas, Catholics will not tolerate the desecration of the Eucharist."
(Note: For information purposes only. The poster does not subscribe to the above wackiness)
Posted by: ail | July 24, 2008 4:08 PM
I have kind of the opposite of your view but a similar goal.
Everything is sacred.
All those things in your picture are expressions of divinity playing out its ever-evolving and -devolving energy in space and time.
To me what you have done isn't sacrilege but art. It's a rudimentary and minor effort, but still an original variation using evocative elements in a strong, precise statement of individual values, intended to make the viewer rethink familiar objects and entrenched ideas.
I think it's a messed up world when we call a wafer sacred but not a banana.
In fact, we can always manufacture, and get some priest to "bless", more wafers. The bananas are another story, as the particular variety we eat are slowly dying out from a fungal disease.
To you nothing's sacred, to me all of it is, but in both views breakiing down false mysteries is a step toward respecting and valuing the real world for what it is.
I'm outta' here, you got too many commenters already. If there is a goddess, She loves ya'! :)
Posted by: David | July 24, 2008 4:08 PM
Voltaire said that those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. This quotation comes to my mind when I read of the massacres that were instigated by false claims of host desecration, and also when I read the threats of violence from a few outraged Christians.
I want to thank Dr. Myers for reminding us that religious superstition is not harmless, but it has deadly consequences.
Posted by: Mike Smith | July 24, 2008 4:09 PM
I'm excited to see where this leads. I'm with you all the way, PZ.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 4:09 PM
According to the Catholic religion, only assholes are allowed in heaven. That would explain all the Catholic spam.
Posted by: JoJo | July 24, 2008 4:10 PM
To misquote Lewis Carroll:
Speak roughly to your little boy
And beat him when he spams,
He only does it to annoy
And he thinks it damns.
Posted by: Rodney Trotter | July 24, 2008 4:10 PM
Carlie -
Ok if the worst that can be said about the Hindu cow analogy is where he ate the meat I'm happy, it works. The sentiment is the same.
Don't get me wrong, the religious outcry/spam etc is an absurd over-reaction. I just think there's such a thing as poor taste, this being quite close. Might be an English thing.
Posted by: bonefish | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
Great post. Always enjoy whatever you've got to say, PZ.
did take me a hell of a long time to get down here, though. if i wanted to read the papal address in its entirety i am perfectly capable of looking the endless thing up on my own.
i may reread the history of the various church councils, though. they're always interesting.
Posted by: MrMarkAZ | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
I wonder who's going to make post #666? Hopefully it will be that no-talent ass-clown whose posting the same sputum ad nauseum. He's not just wacka-loon, he's a cracka-loon!
Posted by: Patrick | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
Some serious trolling going on here...
Posted by: Hal in Howell MI (not far from Hell, MI) | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
@Father J & Hillarywasscrewed, et al:
Bollocks!!!!
Please don't pray for me because I will then have to think for both of us.
Posted by: Anon | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
Great now that that is done, lets get back to some hot squid on squid action.
Posted by: Sam L. | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
Brilliant, appropriate, and final. Great conclusion, PZ.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 4:12 PM
As a Catholic with a sense or irony I've decided the only thing I'll be praying for is the conversion of PZ's child(ren) to Catholicism. Catholic with a sense of ironic justice.
Posted by: mick lafferty | July 24, 2008 4:12 PM
Communism through Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, HoChi Mihn, Castro and many others has killed many more than Christianity.
Literally, hundreds of millions, not to mention the atheistic nazis killing 6 million Jews and 10 million others.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:12 PM
@Cafeeine
Wow. He REALLY bit the bait uh? My god (Also known as my own self, yes, you heard me, I'm God. Live with it and hail to me.) he's really a blind fanatic man. Sad existence he has.
Posted by: Dahan | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
Fr. J
"Atheists do not believe life is sacred. They don't believe in goodness, truth, or beauty. Those things are meaningless to them. For them there is no meaning. Human beings have no intrinsic worth, so in a way you encourage death threats by your own philosophy. "
How can you have been posting bullshit for ever on these threads and still not know what an atheist is? You really are the dumbest person I've ever read here on this blog, and that includes Kenny. That's saying something.
Unlike you, we don't believe in some fairy made afterlife. We believe this life is all we get, therefore, life is INCREDIBLY important to us. We don't have the "faith" you do that some sky-daddy will sort everything out in the end and make it right. We have to do the work ourselves.
We don't believe in goodness, truth, or beauty? Define "goodness". Is that the bit in your holy book that tells us just how much we can beat our slaves? Truth? You're the one living in a fantasy world with made up beings and rules... what do you know of truth? Beauty? I can enjoy the world and it's beauty more than you ever can, because I allow myself to see the wonders around me instead of focusing on hoped for unrealities.
No meaning? Your life would have no meaning without your imaginary friend? You wouldn't want to build a better world for your children, your wife, for everyone? You wouldn't see a reason to get up in the morning? You are DEEPLY sick. Get to a mental health professional immediately.
Human beings have no intrinsic worth? You're the one who views the imaginary soul as the end-all be-all. Not us.
And as has been put to you probably 50 times already. THERE HAVE BEEN NO GREAT MASSACRES IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM!!! There have been atheists who committed massacres, but not in it's name. There have been MANY massacres committed in the name of religion.
I don't know why I bother. You don't appear to be able to reason. All you can do is spout dogma. You stopped using your brain and it's atrophied to the point that it no longer functions. It's pathetic. really.
Posted by: RelidjusGuy931285 | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
Fore reasins why you athists are rong:
1. I hate you.
2. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Mauris accumsan, neque et tincidunt porttitor, erat orci condimentum nunc, eu commodo ante pede vel ligula!
Fred 7:13
3. Im' mad.
Posted by: Mark B | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
I suppose I just have to be satisfied with the neighbor of the beast, since Patrick got post #666.
Posted by: JF | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
Sooooooooooooo happy to be done with religion after over twenty years of active intellectual denial and ongoing suspended disbelief. Sorry folk there is no evidence for anything supernatural and to think otherwise involves hanging up your thinking processes and holding onto a story with no more merit than tooth ferries, Santa or waiting vestal virgin daiquiris'.
Posted by: laurisa | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
Which stupid fuckers didn't get the memo: DON'T PRAY IN OUR SCHOOL, WE WON'T THINK IN YOUR CHURCH! Oh, must be those christians when god pulled a no show that day. Like the long ass posts are getting read with any hint of seriousness. Are you winning? Do you feel strong? dumbasses.
I was mighty put out though when I stopped the scroll long enough to see that 'church' has desecrated ME...why is that feeble shack a "she?" total bummage.
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
@stogoe:
Yikes! Way cool. I consider myself outgeeked :D
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
Ok if the worst that can be said about the Hindu cow analogy is where he ate the meat I'm happy, it works. The sentiment is the same.
Then you don't ever eat beef? If you do, the sentiment is the same, and you're acting, as you said, in poor taste. And as was said long ago by someone else on one of the epic threads, if you eat pork, you're pissing on Jews and Muslims, and if you swat a mosquito, the Jains will be miffed.
Posted by: Bureaucratus Minimis | July 24, 2008 4:14 PM
I want to revisit TG's original post @ 39. I think everyone(*) here has missed that he and those like him are totally running scared:
It is easy to see the titles of the books, but where is the proof that is a consecrated host? I think it is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt for noteriety. Weak.
See, he's in denial. He refuses to believe that anyone could or would actually "desecrate" the cracker. In his mind nobody would dare do this for fear of divine retribution. Also, IHO there are no real atheists, only believers who are angry at god.
So no matter what proof you offer him, he can still cling to his worldview. Just like poor Binky Brown...
(*) OK, I stopped reading @ 241 because of all the duplicate posts and ridiculously long gibberish about the cracker.
Posted by: erik542 | July 24, 2008 4:14 PM
Ooo monty python reference. Nice. Very fitting too.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 4:14 PM
Fixed.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 4:15 PM
BTW, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus did not originate at Lateran IV. It predates it by centuries, see St. Cyprian. Also PZ doesn't even understand what it means. The interpretation of it is apparently beyond his intellect. Hopefully he will retract his error, but let's not hold our breaths.
Also the Council legislation concerning Jews dealt primarily with limiting interest rates ie. usury. It did NOT mandate a yellow star of David. It stated that Jews and Muslims were to wear distinguishing dress. Why? Because of the tension between the groups and the fact that in Islamic lands this was part of their law. Also this was part of Jewish law and was enforced by Jews in Israel. In other words it was common in virtually all societies at the time. Did Jews get a fair shake? No. But they never have from almost anyone. We at least have taken steps to establish good relations with Jews. PZ hates Jews and despises their religion. Think about what he would do to the Torah if he had a chance.
Jews also could not vote or hold office in many early American colonies. Atheists, like in the old USSR, treated Jews terribly. PZ didn't mention that? Of course not. The fact is that PZ and atheists don't really care about how Jews are treated. It is a tactic and nothing more. He would have no qualms about eliminating Jews. Remember, for him nothing is sacred.
Does he mention how atheists treated Christians during the French revolution? About how many heads have rolled because of people like himself? The brutality of atheism beggars the imagination and makes religious people look like amateurs. 100,000,000 dead on account of PZ's philosophy in the last century. Don't deny it, we all know it is true. We can read.
All of this is a cloak in which he hides his own bigotry and hate. He wants to distract you and justify his own actions. Don't be fooled. For him, NOTHING IS SACRED, and that includes the truth.
Posted by: gb | July 24, 2008 4:15 PM
A toast to our host (PZ ... not the other one) for such an educational demise of that which is not sacred.
Posted by: Sam | July 24, 2008 4:15 PM
So, let's see. In my question for knowledge, to whom shall I look as a model of intellectual inquiry, rigor, and substance? Prof. P.Z. Myers on the one hand, Thomas Aquinas on the other hand.
Hmmmmm...tough choice, isn't it...
Posted by: CJ | July 24, 2008 4:15 PM
In keeping with the whole body of christ theme, I believe you shorted the host a few nails.
Posted by: Bugger Pope | July 24, 2008 4:16 PM
Oh, silly Mike @ #670! You Catholics are ALWAYS trying to get more little boys to join up, aren't you?
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 4:16 PM
#671--
Nazi Germany was predominantly Christian. From the rank-and-file Wehrmacht soldier up to the top-ranked generals, Christians had more than their fair share of participation in the Third Reich's evil doings.
You fail.
P.S. God doesn't exist. Have a nice day.
Posted by: Nino | July 24, 2008 4:16 PM
I like the way you got the fruit that is THE proof for ID involced in all of this as well !
Plus equal oportunity by ripping pafges out of Dawkins.....
Well done !
Posted by: Jason | July 24, 2008 4:17 PM
Tonight, I eat a box of Saltines in memorial of the cracker.
Posted by: Parsnip Money | July 24, 2008 4:17 PM
Donahue has responded. Any minute now the Catholic A-Team Go Force Samurai Cyber Squad Patrol will be knocking down PZ's door and saving their beloved piece of be-yeasted flour.
CRACKERGATE HAS BEGUN.
Posted by: CarpeGuitarrem | July 24, 2008 4:17 PM
Interesting. Apparently you view Richard Dawkins' book as a holy text?
Posted by: firemancarl | July 24, 2008 4:17 PM
@#569. No, the Chermans weren't atheists you silly god botherer. They all fully believed. Even Himmler thought he could find 'the holy grail'. Heck the Wehrmacht were issued belt buckles with 'Gott mit uns' on 'em. Totally what you'd expect from an atheist army. I dig your logic, i have since converted.
Posted by: HC Grindon | July 24, 2008 4:17 PM
"He's not just wacka-loon, he's a cracka-loon!"
Frickin hi-larious! A new term is coined! ROFLMAO!
Posted by: Nina in London | July 24, 2008 4:18 PM
#427 was in answer to what I wrote:
Hey, PZ is a comedian! To us Catholics, transubstantiation is *exactly* the difference. It is a wafer of wheat with the exactly the same form and taste as before the consecration, but after consecration the form is still of wheat but the substance is now the Body of Christ.
#427 replied:
"That is meaningless. It is just an abuse of the English language. What you are in effect saying is that it is both the same and different. That is simply nonsensical. What properties does it have after consecration that it did not have before ? If there are no physical differences then there is no difference. Did you not do science at school or something ? There is an important concept in science, that basically states if you cannot tell two things apart then they are identical."
MY RESPONSE:
Science and Religion have different remits, they are not mutually exclusive. Science is the how, Religion is the why. People ask "WHY do I exist? What does my life mean?" Science does not provide answers to that. That is Religion's job.
Science is neutral, scientists pose hypotheses and argue them to try to explain things in the world. Science does not deal with the soul, heaven, morality, goodness, the agonising question of why people behave violently to each other. Again, Religion offers answers.
Science is always changing - one hypothesis gets replaced by another as further discoveries are made.
I personally don't look to Science for inspiration, spiritual uplift and moral guidance, to make sense of life, to give a wider context.
Religion deals with the eternal. God. Religion is the expression of man's longing for something greater than he is. We Christians believe that God became Man to show us how we can live life to the full, to live as one, with respect for all others on earth, not to live selfishly. To love when love seems impossible, as Jesus did.
(And now I really must go home because it's late over here!)
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:18 PM
Katie Couric now? Had a sex change?
I have to agree with that name for that post this time, John. She's a great way to measure shit.
Posted by: Boosterz | July 24, 2008 4:18 PM
For all the claims to vast cosmic power that they attribute to their god, I would expect something flashier then sending a minion to spam the comments with cut and paste nonsense. lol
Posted by: randy | July 24, 2008 4:18 PM
reversing the situation, circle your answer:
Fred Phelps has or has not received death threats.
Fred Phelps and his clan should be allowed to protest inside, outside, nearby, two blocks away or not at all at funerals of returned soldiers and homosexuals.
Posted by: Marsten | July 24, 2008 4:19 PM
You have offended my God in your desecration of our most holy artifacts, the Sacred Banana! Heathen and blasphemer, know you not that those who decry against the Sacred Banana will be sludged forever in its yellowey goo?
May you slip on many a banana skin for such heresy!
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 4:19 PM
I hope PZ tosses another consecrated cracker in the trash for every time that big-ass stupid screed of whatever-the-hell-I-won't-read-it gets posted.
Posted by: Rodney Trotter | July 24, 2008 4:19 PM
Carlie -
Yes I eat beef - but specific cows are sacred to Hindus, not every one. If I ate the specific cow they had told me previously was some incarnation of whoever, just to prove a point to them, I would feel a bit disappointed with myself.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 4:20 PM
Voltaire: "écrasez l'infâme".
Bill Donahue: Arrest Voltaire!
Posted by: Ben D | July 24, 2008 4:20 PM
If you believe that truth is relative, why can't you respect what "my truth" is? I believe that the host becomes Jesus. You don't. I respect that you don't believe; I have no issue with your disbelief. I don't make fun of you for not believing. As a fellow human, I would have expected the respect to be reciprocal.
Posted by: Drake33 | July 24, 2008 4:20 PM
Ran the Trolls' ungodly length cut and paste rambling it through the ghetto translator. It was... too long for the Ghetto Translator to handle so I trimmed off a couple of lines. Much better if you ask me. Enjoy:
CONCLUSION
60. At da dawn uh dis third millennium, we, da children uh da Church, be called to undasnatch wid renewed enthusiasm da journey uh Christian livin`. As ah` wrote in my Apostolic Letter Novo Millennio Ineunte, \"it be not a matta` uh inventin` a 'new programme'. da programme aleyebally exists: dat be da plan found in da Gospel and in da livin` Tradition; dat be da same as ever. Ultimately, dat gots its centre in Christ himself, who be to be known, loved and imitated, so that in him we may live da life uh da Trinity, and wid him transform histo`y until its fulfilment in da heavenly Jerusalem\".103 da implementation uh dis programme uh a renewed impetus in Christian livin` passes through da Eucharist.
Every commitment to holiness, every activity aimed at wheelsrying out da Church's mission, every wo`k uh pastoral plannin`, must draw da strength dat needs from da Eucharistic mystery and in turn be directed to that mystery as its culmination. In da Eucharist we have Jesus, we have his redemptive sacrifice, we have his resurrection, we have da gift uh da Holy Spirit, we have adoration, obedience and love uh da pops. Were we to disregard da Eucharist, how could we overcome our own deficiency?
61. da mystery uh da Eucharist - sacrifice, presence, banquet - duz not allow fo` reduction o` exploitation; dat must be experienced and lived in its integrity, both in its celebration and in da intimate converse wid Jesus which snatchs place after receivin` communion o` in a prayerful moment uh Eucharistic adoration apart from Mass. dese be times when da Church be firmly built up and dat becomes clear what she truly be: one, holy, catholic and apostolic; da people, temple and family uh God; da body and bride uh Christ, enlivened by da Holy Spirit; da universal sacrament uh salvation and a hierarchically structured communion.
The path snatchn by da Church in dese fust years uh da third millennium be also a path uh renewed ecumenical commitment. da final decades uh da second millennium, culminatin` in da Grfeed Jubilee, have spurred us along dis path and called fo` all da baptized to respond to da prayer uh Jesus \"ut unum sint \" (Jn 17:11). da path itself be long and strewn wid obstacles grfeeder than our human resources alone kin overcome, yet we have da Eucharist, and in its presence we kin hear in da depths uh our hearts, as if they were addressed to us, da same wo`ds heard by da Prophet Elijah: \"Arise and feed, else da journey will be n` all grfeed fo` you\" (1 Kg 19:7). da treasho` uh da Eucharist, which da Lord places befo`e us, impels us towards da goal uh full sharin` wid all our brothas and sistas to whom we be joined by our common Baptism. But if dis treasho` be not to be squandered, we need to respect da demands which derive from its being da sacrament uh communion in faith and in apostolic succession.
By givin` da Eucharist da prominence dat deserves, and by being wheelseful not to diminish enny uh its dimensions o` demands, we show that we be truly conscious uh da grfeedness uh dis gift. We be urged to do so by an uninterrupted tradition, which from da fust centuries on gots found da Christian community ever vigilant in guarding dis \"treasho`\". Inspired by love, da Church be anxious to hand on to future generations uh Christians, widout loss, her faith and teaching wid regard to da mystery uh da Eucharist. dere kin be no danger uh excess in our wheelse fo` dis mystery, fo` \"in dis sacrament be recapitulated da whole mystery uh our salvation\".104
62. Let us snatch our place, dear brothas and sistas, at da school uh da saints, who be da grfeed interpreters uh true Eucharistic piety. In dem da theology uh da Eucharist snatchs on all da splendour uh a lived reality; dat becomes \"contagious\" and, in a manner uh speakin`, dat \"warms our hearts\". Above all, let us listen to Mary Most Holy, in whom da mystery uh da Eucharist appears, mo`e than in ennyone else, as a mystery uh light. Gazing upon Mary, we mosey on down to know da transformin` power present in da Eucharist. In her we see da wo`ld renewed in love. Contemplatin` her, assumed body and soul into heaven, we see jimmeyin` up befo`e us those \"new heavens\" and that \"new earth\" which will appear at da second comin` uh Christ. Here below, da Eucharist represents their pledge, and in a certain way, their anticipation: \"Veni, Domine Iesu!\" (Rev 22:20).
In da humble signs uh beyeball and wine, changed into his body and blood, Christ walks beside us as our strength and our food fo` da journey, and he enables us to become, fo` everyone, witnesses uh hope. If, in da presence uh dis mystery, reason experiences its limits, da heart, enlightened by da grace uh da Holy Spirit, clearly sees da response that be demanded, and bows low in adoration and unbounded love.
Let us make our own da wo`ds uh Saint Thomas Aquinas, an eminent theologian and an impassioned poet uh Christ in da Eucharist, and turn in hope to da contemplation uh that goal to which our hearts aspire in their thirst fo` joy and peace:
Bone pastor, panis vere,
Iesu, nostrah` miserere...
Come then, phat Shepherd, beyeball divine,
Still show to us thy mercy sign;
Oh, feed us, still keep us thine;
So we may see thy glories shine
in fields uh immo`tality.
O thou, da wisest, mightiest, best,
Our present food, our future rest,
Come, make us each thy chosen guest,
Co-heirs uh thine, and comrades blest
wid saints whose dwelling be wid thee.
Given in Rome, at Saint Peter's, on 17 April, Holy Thursday, in da year 2003, da Twenty- fifth uh my Pontificate, da Year uh da Rosary.
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 4:21 PM
Fr. J,
You kook, atheism isn't a philosophy. It's a state of disbelief in gods. Just like your (I presume) disbelief in Santa Claus is a state of disbelief and not a whole philosophy.
I challenge you to define atheism in an objective manner.
This should be revealing.
Posted by: Helioprogenus | July 24, 2008 4:21 PM
Did you all hear that? No? That's the sound of an idiot masturbating over a treastise that another idiot with a hat decided to implement a number of years ago. Listen, do you morons actually seriously think you're going to convert even one person here? If you really want to save someone, go help those suffering with aids because they were told they would go to hell for using contraceptives. Go to the little children molested by priests and help them understand that only sick, misguided individuals like yourselves would ever do that to them. While you're at it, why don't you pray to your imaginary deity and stop pestering us. You're just proving why we don't need your kind, and why the world would be better off when all of you are dead and gone. In Essence, go fuck yourselves your religious assholes.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:22 PM
Go John go! LOL
Posted by: david broome | July 24, 2008 4:23 PM
Way to go, PZ. You have my full support. Its time to stand up and be counted for your what you DO believe in: the power of evidence and reasoned argument. Long live science!
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 4:23 PM
PZ, get rid of spamming John. A single post and a link from him would have sufficed, but nooo... now everyone has to spend forty thousand minutes scrolling past his nonsense to see the rest of the comments.
Posted by: Enshoku | July 24, 2008 4:24 PM
nina, that is bullshit. Science does explain altruism(goodness), morality, and that little thing called violence. The first two stem from societal structures as well as propagation of the species, and violence comes from too many things to name, emotional highs, lack of education, primitive instincts, etc.
Posted by: dubiquiabs | July 24, 2008 4:24 PM
@ #121 #134 #145 #151 and all the other believers:
"Absolute Truth" appears to be neither.
Posted by: AGH | July 24, 2008 4:25 PM
Nice desecration, PZ! You still have the option to hock a loogie on it if necessary.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 24, 2008 4:25 PM
Ogod. Your blog has been Ecclesiastijacked.
Posted by: oldcola | July 24, 2008 4:25 PM
Quite entertaining post, thank you PZ.
People, let's get PZ's trash viral, all over the blogs ;-)
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:25 PM
Well done John. Speaking of John ......
The Gospel According to Saint John
1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. 1:4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 1:5And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not. 1:6There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. 1:7The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him. 1:8He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light. 1:9There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not. 1:11He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. 1:15John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me. 1:16For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace. 1:17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 1:18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 1:19And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent unto him from Jerusalem priests and Levites to ask him, Who art thou? 1:20And he confessed, and denied not; and he confessed, I am not the Christ. 1:21And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No. 1:22They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 1:23He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said Isaiah the prophet. 1:24And they had been sent from the Pharisees. 1:25And they asked him, and said unto him, Why then baptizest thou, if thou art not the Christ, neither Elijah, neither the prophet? 1:26John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not, 1:27even he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose. 1:28These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 1:29On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world! 1:30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man who is become before me: for he was before me. 1:31And I knew him not; but that he should be made manifest to Israel, for this cause came I baptizing in water. 1:32And John bare witness, saying, I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven; and it abode upon him. 1:33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit. 1:34And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God. 1:35Again on the morrow John was standing, and two of his disciples; 1:36and he looked upon Jesus as he walked, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God! 1:37And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 1:38And Jesus turned, and beheld them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? And they said unto him, Rabbi (which is to say, being interpreted, Teacher), where abideth thou? 1:39He saith unto them, Come, and ye shall see. They came therefore and saw where he abode; and they abode with him that day: it was about the tenth hour. 1:40One of the two that heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41He findeth first his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messiah (which is, being interpreted, Christ). 1:42He brought him unto Jesus. Jesus looked upon him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of John: thou shalt be called Cephas (which is by interpretation, Peter). 1:43On the morrow he was minded to go forth into Galilee, and he findeth Philip: and Jesus saith unto him, Follow me. 1:44Now Philip was from Bethsaida, of the city of Andrew and Peter. 1:45Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:46And Nathanael said unto him, Can any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 1:47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49Nathanael answered him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel. 1:50Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee underneath the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
2:1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2:2and Jesus also was bidden, and his disciples, to the marriage. 2:3And when the wine failed, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 2:4And Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 2:5His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. 2:6Now there were six waterpots of stone set there after the Jews' manner of purifying, containing two or three firkins apiece. 2:7Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. 2:8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the ruler of the feast. And they bare it. 2:9And when the ruler of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and knew not whence it was (but the servants that had drawn the water knew), the ruler of the feast calleth the bridegroom, 2:10and saith unto him, Every man setteth on first the good wine; and when men have drunk freely, then that which is worse: thou hast kept the good wine until now. 2:11This beginning of his signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him. 2:12After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples; and there they abode not many days. 2:13And the passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2:14And he found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 2:15and he made a scourge of cords, and cast all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money, and overthrew their tables; 2:16and to them that sold the doves he said, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house a house of merchandise. 2:17His disciples remembered that it was written, Zeal for thy house shall eat me up. 2:18The Jews therefore answered and said unto him, What sign showest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 2:19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:20The Jews therefore said, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou raise it up in three days? 2:21But he spake of the temple of his body. 2:22When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he spake this; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. 2:23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, during the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he did. 2:24But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men, 2:25and because he needed not that any one should bear witness concerning man; for he himself knew what was in man.
3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 3:2the same came unto him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest, except God be with him. 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 3:4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. 3:8The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 3:9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 3:10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things? 3:11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 3:12If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things? 3:13And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven. 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 3:15that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 3:17For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 3:18He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. 3:19And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 3:20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. 3:21But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. 3:22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 3:23And John also was baptizing in Enon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. 3:24For John was not yet cast into prison. 3:25There arose therefore a questioning on the part of John's disciples with a Jew about purifying. 3:26And they came unto John, and said to him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou hast borne witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 3:27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven. 3:28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but, that I am sent before him. 3:29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, that standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is made full. 3:30He must increase, but I must decrease. 3:31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 3:32What he hath seen and heard, of that he beareth witness; and no man receiveth his witness. 3:33He that hath received his witness hath set his seal to this, that God is true. 3:34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure. 3:35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
4:1When therefore the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 4:2(although Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples), 4:3he left Judea, and departed again into Galilee. 4:4And he must needs pass through Samaria. 4:5So he cometh to a city of Samaria, called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph: 4:6and Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour. 4:7There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. 4:8For his disciples were gone away into the city to buy food. 4:9The Samaritan woman therefore saith unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, who am a Samaritan woman? (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 4:10Jesus answered and said unto unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 4:11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: whence then hast thou that living water? 4:12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his sons, and his cattle? 4:13Jesus answered and said unto her, Every one that drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 4:14but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life. 4:15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come all the way hither to draw. 4:16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 4:17The woman answered and said unto him, I have no husband. Jesus saith unto her, Thou saidst well, I have no husband: 4:18for thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: this hast thou said truly. 4:19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 4:20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 4:21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father. 4:22Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. 4:23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. 4:25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things. 4:26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. 4:27And upon this came his disciples; and they marvelled that he was speaking with a woman; yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why speakest thou with her? 4:28So the woman left her waterpot, and went away into the city, and saith to the people, 4:29Come, see a man, who told me all things that ever I did: can this be the Christ? 4:30They went out of the city, and were coming to him. 4:31In the mean while the disciples prayed him, saying, Rabbi, eat. 4:32But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not. 4:33The disciples therefore said one to another, Hath any man brought him aught to eat? 4:34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to accomplish his work. 4:35Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh the harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields, that they are white already unto harvest. 4:36He that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal; that he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. 4:37For herein is the saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. 4:38I sent you to reap that whereon ye have not labored: others have labored, and ye are entered into their labor. 4:39And from that city many of the Samaritans believed on him because of the word of the woman, who testified, He told me all things that ever I did. 4:40So when the Samaritans came unto him, they besought him to abide with them: and he abode there two days. 4:41And many more believed because of his word; 4:42and they said to the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy speaking: for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Saviour of the world. 4:43And after the two days he went forth from thence into Galilee. 4:44For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honor in his own country. 4:45So when he came into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did in Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast. 4:46He came therefore again unto Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum. 4:47When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son; for he was at the point of death. 4:48Jesus therefore said unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will in no wise believe. 4:49The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die. 4:50Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. The man believed the word that Jesus spake unto him, and he went his way. 4:51And as he was now going down, his servants met him, saying, that his son lived. 4:52So he inquired of them the hour when he began to amend. They said therefore unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. 4:53So the father knew that it was at that hour in which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house. 4:54This is again the second sign that Jesus did, having come out of Judaea into Galilee.
5:1After these things there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 5:2Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porches. 5:3In these lay a multitude of them that were sick, blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 5:4for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the waters stepped in was made whole, with whatsoever disease he was holden. 5:5And a certain man was there, who had been thirty and eight years in his infirmity. 5:6When Jesus saw him lying, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wouldest thou be made whole? 5:7The sick man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me. 5:8Jesus saith unto him, Arise, take up thy bed, and walk. 5:9And straightway the man was made whole, and took up his bed and walked. Now it was the sabbath on that day. 5:10So the Jews said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath, and it is not lawful for thee to take up thy bed. 5:11But he answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk. 5:12They asked him, Who is the man that said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk? 5:13But he that was healed knew not who it was; for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in the place. 5:14Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing befall thee. 5:15The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him whole. 5:16And for this cause the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. 5:17But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work. 5:18For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 5:19Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner. 5:20For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel. 5:21For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will. 5:22For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son; 5:23that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him. 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. 5:25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. 5:26For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself: 5:27and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man. 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 5:29and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. 5:30I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 5:31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 5:32It is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 5:33Ye have sent unto John, and he hath borne witness unto the truth. 5:34But the witness which I receive is not from man: howbeit I say these things, that ye may be saved. 5:35He was the lamp that burneth and shineth; and ye were willing to rejoice for a season in his light. 5:36But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father hath given me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 5:37And the Father that sent me, he hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form. 5:38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he sent, him ye believe not. 5:39Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; 5:40and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life. 5:41I receive not glory from men. 5:42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in yourselves. 5:43I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44How can ye believe, who receive glory one of another, and the glory that cometh from the only God ye seek not? 5:45Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, on whom ye have set your hope. 5:46For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me. 5:47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
6:1After these things Jesus went away to the other side of the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. 6:2And a great multitude followed him, because they beheld the signs which he did on them that were sick. 6:3And Jesus went up into the mountain, and there he sat with his disciples. 6:4Now the passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand. 6:5Jesus therefore lifting up his eyes, and seeing that a great multitude cometh unto him, saith unto Philip, Whence are we to buy bread, that these may eat? 6:6And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. 6:7Philip answered him, Two hundred shillings' worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one may take a little. 6:8One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him, 6:9There is a lad here, who hath five barley loaves, and two fishes: but what are these among so many? 6:10Jesus said, Make the people sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. 6:11Jesus therefore took the loaves; and having given thanks, he distributed to them that were set down; likewise also of the fishes as much as they would. 6:12And when they were filled, he saith unto his disciples, Gather up the broken pieces which remain over, that nothing be lost. 6:13So they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with broken pieces from the five barley loaves, which remained over unto them that had eaten. 6:14When therefore the people saw the sign which he did, they said, This is of a truth the prophet that cometh into the world. 6:15Jesus therefore perceiving that they were about to come and take him by force, to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain himself alone. 6:16And when evening came, his disciples went down unto the sea; 6:17and they entered into a boat, and were going over the sea unto Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them. 6:18And the sea was rising by reason of a great wind that blew. 6:19When therefore they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they behold Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the boat: and they were afraid. 6:20But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. 6:21They were willing therefore to receive him into the boat: and straightway the boat was at the land whither they were going. 6:22On the morrow the multitude that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, save one, and that Jesus entered not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples went away alone 6:23(howbeit there came boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks): 6:24when the multitude therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they themselves got into the boats, and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 6:25And when they found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? 6:26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye ate of the loaves, and were filled. 6:27Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. 6:28They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 6:29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 6:30They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou? 6:31Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat. 6:32Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven. 6:33For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 6:34They said therefore unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 6:35Jesus said unto them. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 6:36But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not. 6:37All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 6:38For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 6:39And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:41The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven. 6:42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of heaven? 6:43Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. 6:45It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me. 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father. 6:47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life. 6:48I am the bread of life. 6:49Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 6:50This is the bread which cometh down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 6:51I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. 6:52The Jews therefore strove one with another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 6:53Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. 6:54He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 6:56He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him. 6:57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me. 6:58This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever. 6:59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 6:60Many therefore of his disciples, when the heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? 6:61But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said unto them, Doth this cause you to stumble? 6:62What then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before? 6:63It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life. 6:64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him. 6:65And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father. 6:66Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 6:67Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, Would ye also go away? 6:68Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 6:69And we have believed and know that thou art the Holy One of God. 6:70Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil? 6:71Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
7:1And after these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Judaea, because the Jews sought to kill him. 7:2Now the feast of the Jews, the feast of tabernacles, was at hand. 7:3His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may behold thy works which thou doest. 7:4For no man doeth anything in secret, and himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou doest these things, manifest thyself to the world. 7:5For even his brethren did not believe on him. 7:6Jesus therefore saith unto them, My time is not yet come; but your time is always ready. 7:7The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that its works are evil. 7:8Go ye up unto the feast: I go not up unto this feast; because my time is not yet fulfilled. 7:9And having said these things unto them, he abode still in Galilee. 7:10But when his brethren were gone up unto the feast, then went he also up, not publicly, but as it were in secret. 7:11The Jews therefore sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he? 7:12And there was much murmuring among the multitudes concerning him: some said, He is a good man; others said, Not so, but he leadeth the multitude astray. 7:13Yet no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews. 7:14But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. 7:15The Jews therefore marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? 7:16Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me. 7:17If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself. 7:18He that speaketh from himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh the glory of him that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. 7:19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you doeth the law? Why seek ye to kill me? 7:20The multitude answered, Thou hast a demon: who seeketh to kill thee? 7:21Jesus answered and said unto them, I did one work, and ye all marvel because thereof. 7:22Moses hath given you circumcision (not that it is of Moses, but of the fathers); and on the sabbath ye circumcise a man. 7:23If a man receiveth circumcision on the sabbath, that the law of Moses may not be broken; are ye wroth with me, because I made a man every whit whole on the sabbath? 7:24Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment. 7:25Some therefore of them of Jerusalem said, Is not this he whom they seek to kill? 7:26And lo, he speaketh openly, and they say nothing unto him. Can it be that the rulers indeed know that this is the Christ? 7:27Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when the Christ cometh, no one knoweth whence he is. 7:28Jesus therefore cried in the temple, teaching and saying, Ye both know me, and know whence I am; and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 7:29I know him; because I am from him, and he sent me. 7:30They sought therefore to take him: and no man laid his hand on him, because his hour was not yet come. 7:31But of the multitude many believed on him; and they said, When the Christ shall come, will he do more signs than those which this man hath done? 7:32The Pharisees heard the multitude murmuring these things concerning him; and the chief priests and the Pharisees sent officers to take him. 7:33Jesus therefore said, Yet a little while am I with you, and I go unto him that sent me. 7:34Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, ye cannot come. 7:35The Jews therefore said among themselves, Whither will this man go that we shall not find him? will he go unto the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks? 7:36What is this word that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me; and where I am, ye cannot come? 7:37Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink. 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, from within him shall flow rivers of living water. 7:39But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified. 7:40Some of the multitude therefore, when they heard these words, said, This is of a truth the prophet. 7:41Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, What, doth the Christ come out of Galilee? 7:42Hath not the scripture said that the Christ cometh of the seed of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was? 7:43So there arose a division in the multitude because of him. 7:44And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him. 7:45The officers therefore came to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why did ye not bring him? 7:46The officers answered, Never man so spake. 7:47The Pharisees therefore answered them, Are ye also led astray? 7:48Hath any of the rulers believed on him, or of the Pharisees? 7:49But this multitude that knoweth not the law are accursed. 7:50Nicodemus saith unto them (he that came to him before, being one of them), 7:51Doth our law judge a man, except it first hear from himself and know what he doeth? 7:52They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and see that out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
7:53And they went every man unto his own house:
8:1but Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 8:2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 8:3And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst, 8:4they say unto him, Teacher, this woman hath been taken in adultery, in the very act. 8:5Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such: what then sayest thou of her? 8:6And this they said, trying him, that they might have whereof to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. 8:7But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8:8And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. 8:9And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst. 8:10And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee? 8:11And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more. 8:12Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life. 8:13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true. 8:14Jesus answered and said unto them, Even if I bear witness of myself, my witness is true; for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye know not whence I come, or whither I go. 8:15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 8:16Yea and if I judge, my judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 8:17Yea and in your law it is written, that the witness of two men is true. 8:18I am he that beareth witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. 8:19They said therefore unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father: if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also. 8:20These words spake he in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man took him; because his hour was not yet come. 8:21He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come. 8:22The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come? 8:23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 8:24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 8:25They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? Jesus said unto them, Even that which I have also spoken unto you from the beginning. 8:26I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you: howbeit he that sent me is true; and the things which I heard from him, these speak I unto the world. 8:27They perceived not that he spake to them of the Father. 8:28Jesus therefore said, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things. 8:29And he that sent me is with me; he hath not left me alone; for I do always the things that are pleasing to him. 8:30As he spake these things, many believed on him. 8:31Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; 8:32and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 8:33They answered unto him, We are Abraham's seed, and have never yet been in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 8:34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Every one that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin. 8:35And the bondservant abideth not in the house for ever: the son abideth for ever. 8:36If therefore the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 8:37I know that ye are Abraham's seed: yet ye seek to kill me, because my word hath not free course in you. 8:38I speak the things which I have seen with my Father: and ye also do the things which ye heard from your father. 8:39They answered and said unto him, Our father is Abraham. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 8:40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham. 8:41Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me. 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. 8:45But because I say the truth, ye believe me not. 8:46Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I say truth, why do ye not believe me? 8:47He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. 8:48The Jews answered and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a demon? 8:49Jesus answered, I have not a demon; but I honor my Father, and ye dishonor me. 8:50But I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 8:51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death. 8:52The Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my word, he shall never taste of death. 8:53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who died? and the prophets died: whom makest thou thyself? 8:54Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing: it is my Father that glorifieth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God; 8:55and ye have not known him: but I know him; and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be like unto you, a liar: but I know him, and keep his word. 8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad. 8:57The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. 8:59They took up stones therefore to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.
9:1And as he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. 9:2And his disciples asked him, saying, Rabbi, who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? 9:3Jesus answered, Neither did this man sin, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 9:4We must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 9:5When I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 9:6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and anointed his eyes with the clay, 9:7and said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam (which is by interpretation, Sent). He went away therefore, and washed, and came seeing. 9:8The neighbors therefore, and they that saw him aforetime, that he was a beggar, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9:9Others said, It is he: others said, No, but he is like him. He said, I am he. 9:10They said therefore unto him, How then were thine eyes opened? 9:11He answered, The man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to Siloam, and wash: so I went away and washed, and I received sight. 9:12And they said unto him, Where is he? He saith, I know not. 9:13They bring to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind. 9:14Now it was the sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes. 9:15Again therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he received his sight. And he said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and I see. 9:16Some therefore of the Pharisees said, This man is not from God, because he keepeth not the sabbath. But others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such signs? And there was division among them. 9:17They say therefore unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, in that he opened thine eyes? And he said, He is a prophet. 9:18The Jews therefore did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and had received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight, 9:19and asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? How then doth he now see? 9:20His parents answered and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 9:21but how he now seeth, we know not; or who opened his eyes, we know not: ask him; he is of age; he shall speak for himself. 9:22These things said his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man should confess him to be Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. 9:23Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him. 9:24So they called a second time the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give glory to God: we know that this man is a sinner. 9:25He therefore answered, Whether he is a sinner, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. 9:26They said therefore unto him, What did he to thee? How opened he thine eyes? 9:27He answered them, I told you even now, and ye did not hear; wherefore would ye hear it again? would ye also become his disciples? 9:28And they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are disciples of Moses. 9:29We know that God hath spoken unto Moses: but as for this man, we know not whence he is. 9:30The man answered and said unto them, Why, herein is the marvel, that ye know not whence he is, and yet he opened mine eyes. 9:31We know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and do his will, him he heareth. 9:32Since the world began it was never heard that any one opened the eyes of a man born blind. 9:33If this man were not from God, he could do nothing. 9:34They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. 9:35Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and finding him, he said, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 9:36He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? 9:37Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and he it is that speaketh with thee. 9:38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 9:39And Jesus said, For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind. 9:40Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and said unto him, Are we also blind? 9:41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye would have no sin: but now ye say, We see: your sin remaineth.
10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 10:2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 10:3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 10:4When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 10:5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 10:6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 10:7Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 10:8All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 10:9I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture. 10:10The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. 10:11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. 10:12He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them: 10:13he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 10:14I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me, 10:15even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 10:16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. 10:17Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. 10:18No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father. 10:19There arose a division again among the Jews because of these words. 10:20And many of them said, He hath a demon, and is mad; why hear ye him? 10:21Others said, These are not the sayings of one possessed with a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind? 10:22And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: 10:23it was winter; and Jesus was walking in the temple in Solomon's porch. 10:24The Jews therefore came round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou hold us in suspense? If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly. 10:25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me. 10:26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. 10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 10:29My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 10:30I and the Father are one. 10:31The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 10:32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 10:33The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 10:34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? 10:35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 10:36say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 10:37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 10:38But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. 10:39They sought again to take him: and he went forth out of their hand. 10:40And he went away again beyond the Jordan into the place where John was at the first baptizing; and there be abode. 10:41And many came unto him; and they said, John indeed did no sign: but all things whatsoever John spake of this man were true. 10:42And many believed on him there.
11:1Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, of the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 11:2And it was that Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 11:3The sisters therefore sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick. 11:4But when Jesus heard it, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified thereby. 11:5Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. 11:6When therefore he heard that he was sick, he abode at that time two days in the place where he was. 11:7Then after this he saith to the disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. 11:8The disciples say unto him, Rabbi, the Jews were but now seeking to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? 11:9Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If a man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 11:10But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because the light is not in him. 11:11These things spake he: and after this he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus is fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 11:12The disciples therefore said unto him, Lord, if he is fallen asleep, he will recover. 11:13Now Jesus had spoken of his death: but they thought that he spake of taking rest in sleep. 11:14Then Jesus therefore said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 11:15And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him. 11:16Thomas therefore, who is called Didymus, said unto his fellow-disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 11:17So when Jesus came, he found that he had been in the tomb four days already. 11:18Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off; 11:19and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother. 11:20Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary still sat in the house. 11:21Martha therefore said unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 11:22And even now I know that, whatsoever thou shalt ask of God, God will give thee. 11:23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 11:25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; 11:26and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this? 11:27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I have believed that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, even he that cometh into the world. 11:28And when she had said this, she went away, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Teacher is her, and calleth thee. 11:29And she, when she heard it, arose quickly, and went unto him. 11:30(Now Jesus was not yet come into the village, but was still in the place where Martha met him.) 11:31The Jews then who were with her in the house, and were consoling her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up quickly and went out, followed her, supposing that she was going unto the tomb to weep there. 11:32Mary therefore, when she came where Jesus was, and saw him, fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 11:33When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping who came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 11:34and said, Where have ye laid him? They say unto him, Lord, come and see. 11:35Jesus wept. 11:36The Jews therefore said, Behold how he loved him! 11:37But some of them said, Could not this man, who opened the eyes of him that was blind, have caused that this man also should not die? 11:38Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 11:39Jesus saith, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time the body decayeth; for he hath been dead four days. 11:40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou believedst, thou shouldest see the glory of God? 11:41So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou heardest me. 11:42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the multitude that standeth around I said it, that they may believe that thou didst send me. 11:43And when he had thus spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 11:44He that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave-clothes; and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. 11:45Many therefore of the Jews, who came to Mary and beheld that which he did, believed on him. 11:46But some of them went away to the Pharisees, and told them the things which Jesus had done. 11:47The chief priests therefore and the Pharisees gathered a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many signs. 11:48If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation. 11:49But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 11:50nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 11:51Now this he said not of himself: but, being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation; 11:52and not for the nation only, but that he might also gather together into one the children of God that are scattered abroad. 11:53So from that day forth they took counsel that they might put him to death. 11:54Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews, but departed thence into the country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim; and there he tarried with the disciples. 11:55Now the passover of the Jews was at hand: and many went up to Jerusalem out of the country before the passover, to purify themselves. 11:56They sought therefore for Jesus, and spake one with another, as they stood in the temple, What think ye? That he will not come to the feast? 11:57Now the chief priests and the Pharisees had given commandment, that, if any man knew where he was, he should show it, that they might take him.
12:1Jesus therefore six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus raised from the dead. 12:2So they made him a supper there: and Martha served; but Lazarus was one of them that sat at meat with him. 12:3Mary therefore took a pound of ointment of pure nard, very precious, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odor of the ointment. 12:4But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples, that should betray him, saith, 12:5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred shillings, and given to the poor? 12:6Now this he said, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the bag took away what was put therein. 12:7Jesus therefore said, Suffer her to keep it against the day of my burying. 12:8For the poor ye have always with you; but me ye have not always. 12:9The common people therefore of the Jews learned that he was there: and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 12:10But the chief priests took counsel that they might put Lazarus also to death; 12:11because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus. 12:12On the morrow a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 12:13took the branches of the palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried out, Hosanna: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel. 12:14And Jesus, having found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, 12:15Fear not, daughter of Zion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. 12:16These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him. 12:17The multitude therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from the dead, bare witness. 12:18For this cause also the multitude went and met him, for that they heard that he had done this sign. 12:19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Behold how ye prevail nothing: lo, the world is gone after him. 12:20Now there were certain Greeks among those that went up to worship at the feast: 12:21these therefore came to Philip, who was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 12:22Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: Andrew cometh, and Philip, and they tell Jesus. 12:23And Jesus answereth them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 12:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit. 12:25He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 12:26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will the Father honor. 12:27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour. 12:28Father, glorify thy name. There came therefore a voice out of heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 12:29The multitude therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it had thundered: others said, An angel hath spoken to him. 12:30Jesus answered and said, This voice hath not come for my sake, but for your sakes. 12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. 12:33But this he said, signifying by what manner of death he should die. 12:34The multitude therefore answered him, We have heard out of the law that the Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? 12:35Jesus therefore said unto them, Yet a little while is the light among you. Walk while ye have the light, that darkness overtake you not: and he that walketh in the darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 12:36While ye have the light, believe on the light, that ye may become sons of light. These things spake Jesus, and he departed and hid himself from them. 12:37But though he had done so many signs before them, yet they believed not on him: 12:38that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord, who hath believed our report?
And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
12:39For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again,
12:40He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart;
Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart,
And should turn,
And I should heal them.
12:41These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him. 12:42Nevertheless even of the rulers many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess it, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 12:43for they loved the glory that is of men more than the glory that is of God. 12:44And Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 12:45And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me. 12:46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me may not abide in the darkness. 12:47And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day. 12:49For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 12:50And I know that his commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.
13:1Now before the feast of the passover, Jesus knowing that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto his Father, having loved his own that were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 13:2And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him, 13:3Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all the things into his hands, and that he came forth from God, and goeth unto God, 13:4riseth from supper, and layeth aside his garments; and he took a towel, and girded himself. 13:5Then he poureth water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 13:6So he cometh to Simon Peter. He saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 13:7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt understand hereafter. 13:8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 13:9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 13:10Jesus saith to him, He that is bathed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 13:11For he knew him that should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 13:12So when he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, and sat down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13:13Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 13:14If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 13:15For I have given you an example, that ye also should do as I have done to you. 13:16Verily, verily, I say unto you, a servant is not greater than his lord; neither one that is sent greater than he that sent him. 13:17If ye know these things, blessed are ye if ye do them. 13:18I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me. 13:19From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. 13:20Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. 13:21When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in the spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 13:22The disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. 13:23There was at the table reclining in Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 13:24Simon Peter therefore beckoneth to him, and saith unto him, Tell us who it is of whom he speaketh. 13:25He leaning back, as he was, on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 13:26Jesus therefore answereth, He it is, for whom I shall dip the sop, and give it him. So when he had dipped the sop, he taketh and giveth it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 13:27And after the sop, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, What thou doest, do quickly. 13:28Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 13:29For some thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus said unto him, Buy what things we have need of for the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 13:30He then having received the sop went out straightway: and it was night. 13:31When therefore he was gone out, Jesus saith, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him; 13:32and God shall glorify him in himself, and straightway shall he glorify him. 13:33Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say unto you. 13:34A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; even as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 13:35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. 13:36Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered, Whither I go, thou canst not follow now; but thou shalt follow afterwards. 13:37Peter saith unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee even now? I will lay down my life for thee. 13:38Jesus answereth, Wilt thou lay down thy life for me? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
14:1Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. 14:2In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 14:4And whither I go, ye know the way. 14:5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way? 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. 14:7If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 14:8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. 14:11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 14:12Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father. 14:13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14:14If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do. 14:15If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, 14:17even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. 14:18I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you. 14:19Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also. 14:20In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. 14:22Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 14:23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 14:24He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me. 14:25These things have I spoken unto you, while yet abiding with you. 14:26But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you. 14:27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful. 14:28Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I. 14:29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe. 14:30I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me; 14:31but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 15:2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. 15:3Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you. 15:4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me. 15:5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. 15:6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 15:7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 15:8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; and so shall ye be my disciples. 15:9Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love. 15:10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 15:11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. 15:12This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you. 15:13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 15:14Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you. 15:15No longer do I call you servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I heard from my Father, I have made known unto you. 15:16Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 15:17These things I command you, that ye may love one another. 15:18If the world hateth you, ye know that it hath hated me before it hated you. 15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 15:20Remember the word that I said unto you, A servant is not greater than his lord. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. 15:21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 15:22If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no excuse for their sin. 15:23He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 15:24If I had not done among them the works which none other did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 15:25But this cometh to pass, that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. 15:26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me: 15:27and ye also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be caused to stumble. 16:2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. 16:3And these things will they do, because they have not known the Father, nor me. 16:4But these things have I spoken unto you, that when their hour is come, ye may remember them, how that I told you. And these things I said not unto you from the beginning, because I was with you. 16:5But now I go unto him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 16:6But because I have spoken these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you. 16:8And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 16:9of sin, because they believe not on me; 16:10of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; 16:11of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. 16:14He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you. 16:15All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he taketh of mine, and shall declare it unto you. 16:16A little while, and ye behold me no more; and again a little while, and ye shall see me. 16:17Some of his disciples therefore said one to another, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye behold me not; and again a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? 16:18They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? We know not what he saith. 16:19Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me? 16:20Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. 16:21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world. 16:22And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you. 16:23And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name. 16:24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be made full. 16:25These things have I spoken unto you in dark sayings: the hour cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in dark sayings, but shall tell you plainly of the Father. 16:26In that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you; 16:27for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 16:28I came out from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go unto the Father. 16:29His disciples say, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no dark saying. 16:30Now know we that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. 16:31Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? 16:32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 16:33These things have I spoken unto you, that in me ye may have peace. In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
17:1These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee: 17:2even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. 17:3And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ. 17:4I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. 17:5And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 17:6I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word. 17:7Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee: 17:8for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received them, and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me. 17:9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine: 17:10and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine: and I am glorified in them. 17:11And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are. 17:12While I was with them, I kept them in thy name which thou hast given me: and I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 17:13But now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves. 17:14I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17:15I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one. 17:16They are not of the world even as I am not of the world. 17:17Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth. 17:18As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world. 17:19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 17:20Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; 17:21that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me. 17:22And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one; 17:23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me. 17:24Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 17:25O righteous Father, the world knew thee not, but I knew thee; and these knew that thou didst send me; 17:26and I made known unto them thy name, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou lovedst me may be in them, and I in them.
18:1When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Kidron, where was a garden, into which he entered, himself and his disciples. 18:2Now Judas also, who betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus oft-times resorted thither with his disciples. 18:3Judas then, having received the band of soldiers, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. 18:4Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon him, went forth, and saith unto them, Whom seek ye? 18:5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 18:6When therefore he said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. 18:7Again therefore he asked them, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 18:8Jesus answered, I told you that I am he; if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: 18:9that the word might be fulfilled which he spake, Of those whom thou hast given me I lost not one. 18:10Simon Peter therefore having a sword drew it, and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. Now the servant's name was Malchus. 18:11Jesus therefore said unto Peter, Put up the sword into the sheath: the cup which the Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? 18:12So the band and the chief captain, and the officers of the Jews, seized Jesus and bound him, 18:13and led him to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, who was high priest that year. 18:14Now Caiaphas was he that gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people. 18:15And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple. Now that disciple was known unto the high priest, and entered in with Jesus into the court of the high priest; 18:16but Peter was standing at the door without. So the other disciple, who was known unto the high priest, went out and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter. 18:17The maid therefore that kept the door saith unto Peter, Art thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not. 18:18Now the servants and the officers were standing there, having made a fire of coals; for it was cold; and they were warming themselves: and Peter also was with them, standing and warming himself. 18:19The high priest therefore asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his teaching. 18:20Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. 18:21Why askest thou me? Ask them that have heard me, what I spake unto them: behold, these know the things which I said. 18:22And when he had said this, one of the officers standing by struck Jesus with his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so? 18:23Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me? 18:24Annas therefore sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest. 18:25Now Simon Peter was standing and warming himself. They said therefore unto him, Art thou also one of his disciples? He denied, and said, I am not. 18:26One of the servants of the high priest, being a kinsman of him whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? 18:27Peter therefore denied again: and straightway the cock crew. 18:28They lead Jesus therefore from Caiaphas into the Praetorium: and it was early; and they themselves entered not into the Praetorium, that they might not be defiled, but might eat the passover. 18:29Pilate therefore went out unto them, and saith, What accusation bring ye against this man? 18:30They answered and said unto him, If this man were not an evildoer, we should not have delivered him up unto thee. 18:31Pilate therefore said unto them, Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law. The Jews said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death: 18:32that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should die. 18:33Pilate therefore entered again into the Praetorium, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 18:34Jesus answered, Sayest thou this of thyself, or did others tell it thee concerning me? 18:35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 18:37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end have I been born, and to this end am I come into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. 18:38Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find no crime in him. 18:39But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews? 18:40They cried out therefore again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.)
19:1Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him. 19:2And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and arrayed him in a purple garment; 19:3and they came unto him, and said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they struck him with their hands. 19:4And Pilate went out again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him out to you, that ye may know that I find no crime in him. 19:5Jesus therefore came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple garment. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold, the man! 19:6When therefore the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him! Pilate saith unto them, Take him yourselves, and crucify him: for I find no crime in him. 19:7The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. 19:8When Pilate therefore heard this saying, he was the more afraid; 19:9and he entered into the Praetorium again, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. 19:10Pilate therefore saith unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? Knowest thou not that I have power to release thee, and have power to crucify thee? 19:11Jesus answered him, Thou wouldest have no power against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath greater sin. 19:12Upon this Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou release this man, thou art not Caesar's friend: every one that maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. 19:13When Pilate therefore heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment-seat at a place called The Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabbatha. 19:14Now it was the Preparation of the passover: it was about the sixth hour. And he saith unto the Jews, Behold, your King! 19:15They therefore cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him! Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. 19:16Then therefore he delivered him unto them to be crucified. 19:17They took Jesus therefore: and he went out, bearing the cross for himself, unto the place called The place of a skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha: 19:18where they crucified him, and with him two others, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. 19:19And Pilate wrote a title also, and put it on the cross. And there was written, JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 19:20This title therefore read many of the Jews, for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city; and it was written in Hebrew, and in Latin, and in Greek. 19:21The chief priests of the Jews therefore said to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews. 19:22Pilate answered, What I have written I have written. 19:23The soldiers therefore, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also the coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. 19:24They said therefore one to another, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith,
They parted my garments among them,
And upon my vesture did they cast lots.
19:25These things therefore the soldiers did. But there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 19:26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 19:27Then saith he to the disciple, Behold, thy mother! And from that hour the disciple took her unto his own home. 19:28After this Jesus, knowing that all things are now finished, that the scripture might be accomplished, saith, I thirst. 19:29There was set there a vessel full of vinegar: so they put a sponge full of the vinegar upon hyssop, and brought it to his mouth. 19:30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit. 19:31The Jews therefore, because it was the Preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross upon the sabbath (for the day of that sabbath was a high day), asked of Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 19:32The soldiers therefore came, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other that was crucified with him: 19:33but when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 19:34howbeit one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and straightway there came out blood and water. 19:35And he that hath seen hath borne witness, and his witness is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye also may believe. 19:36For these things came to pass, that the scripture might be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 19:37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. 19:38And after these things Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked of Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away his body. 19:39And there came also Nicodemus, he who at the first came to him by night, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. 19:40So they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury. 19:41Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new tomb wherein was never man yet laid. 19:42There then because of the Jews' Preparation (for the tomb was nigh at hand) they laid Jesus.
20:1Now on the first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, while it was yet dark, unto the tomb, and seeth the stone taken away from the tomb. 20:2She runneth therefore, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we know not where they have laid him. 20:3Peter therefore went forth, and the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb. 20:4And they ran both together: and the other disciple outran Peter, and came first to the tomb; 20:5and stooping and looking in, he seeth the linen cloths lying; yet entered he not in. 20:6Simon Peter therefore also cometh, following him, and entered into the tomb; and he beholdeth the linen cloths lying, 20:7and the napkin, that was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself. 20:8Then entered in therefore the other disciple also, who came first to the tomb, and he saw, and believed. 20:9For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 20:10So the disciples went away again unto their own home. 20:11But Mary was standing without at the tomb weeping: so, as she wept, she stooped and looked into the tomb; 20:12and she beholdeth two angels in white sitting, one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 20:13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 20:14When she had thus said, she turned herself back, and beholdeth Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 20:15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou hast borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 20:16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turneth herself, and saith unto him in Hebrew, Rabboni; which is to say, Teacher. 20:17Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. 20:18Mary Magdalene cometh and telleth the disciples, I have seen the Lord; and that he had said these things unto her. 20:19When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20:20And when he had said this, he showed unto them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 20:21Jesus therefore said to them again, Peace be unto you: as the Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 20:22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit: 20:23whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. 20:24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 20:25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe. 20:26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 20:27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 20:28Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 20:29Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 20:30Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 20:31but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
21:1After these things Jesus manifested himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and he manifested himself on this wise. 21:2There was together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples. 21:3Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also come with thee. They went forth, and entered into the boat; and that night they took nothing. 21:4But when day was now breaking, Jesus stood on the beach: yet the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. 21:5Jesus therefore saith unto them, Children, have ye aught to eat? They answered him, No. 21:6And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes. 21:7That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his coat about him (for he was naked), and cast himself into the sea. 21:8But the other disciples came in the little boat (for they were not far from the land, but about two hundred cubits off), dragging the net full of fishes. 21:9So when they got out upon the land, they see a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread. 21:10Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now taken. 21:11Simon Peter therefore went up, and drew the net to land, full of great fishes, a hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, the net was not rent. 21:12Jesus saith unto them, Come and break your fast. And none of the disciples durst inquire of him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord. 21:13Jesus cometh, and taketh the bread, and giveth them, and the fish likewise. 21:14This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after that he was risen from the dead. 21:15So when they had broken their fast, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 21:16He saith to him again a second time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Tend my sheep. 21:17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 21:18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 21:19Now this he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. 21:20Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also leaned back on his breast at the supper, and said, Lord, who is he that betrayeth thee? 21:21Peter therefore seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 21:22Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me. 21:23This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? 21:24This is the disciple that beareth witness of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his witness is true. 21:25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 4:27 PM
Tom, no I will not give my name and address. Haven't you noticed some of the atheists posting here? My life would be in serious danger.
Twist in the wind atheists. Yes YOU killed 100 MILLION people in the last century alone. Nothing you say will convince me otherwise because it is true. I happen to believe in truth, unlike you who think nothing is sacred.
You don't believe in the good, true, or beautiful-you can't. Such things require objective goodness, truth, and beauty. You deny that and admit it. Atheism is only hate and ugliness-a boot in the face-forever. That is why you have lost. Whether Julian said them or not the words are true, "Galilean, you have conquered."
PS: Spammer, I understand your anger, but please stop.
Posted by: D. Edward Farrar | July 24, 2008 4:28 PM
Gee, there are even submissions from Pope John Paul II (who, last time I looked, was dead).
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 4:28 PM
Bill Donohue: The University must now take action and apply the appropriate sanction. We are contacting the president, Board of Regents and the Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action Office at the school, as well as Minnesota's governor and both houses of the state legislature; the Catholic community in Minnesota is also being contacted. Moreover, we are also contacting Muslim groups nationwide.
I noticed Donohue is not contacting Richard Dawkins. Why not? PZ abused his book.
I bet the American Muslims will think Donohue is nuts, and will ignore the whole thing.
We already know what the Catholics will do. They'll prove they're more like terrorists than any Muslim. The out of control Catholic spam on this thread is a good example of their fake morality.
Posted by: JM Inc. | July 24, 2008 4:28 PM
Bravo, PZ Myers! Holy shit (crackers), I was expecting just a little picture or two, plus a description of a cracker impaled by a nail and buried under a rock next to a travelling garden gnome (let's see you get out of that tomb, Jesus!). Well said, well done, well for it, and all that nonsense! I admit to having been a bit uncomfortable with this whole affair, mostly because I felt you weren't getting the point across emphatically enough, but this post takes the cake! Of course, I doubt you'll reach any of the died-in-the-wool believers, but it's worth having done just to have gotten that message out. Thanks for making this whole affair worth while.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:28 PM
Oh great, another masturbator has joined the spam dance. Where's PZ anyway? Or is there another moderator on this website?
Posted by: WayBeyondSoccerMom | July 24, 2008 4:29 PM
Yay, PZ!
Posted by: Cthulhu | July 24, 2008 4:29 PM
Ban these a$$hats trying to crash the server with god garbage.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 4:29 PM
Holy heck, PZ, you really did it! You certainly have guts.
And, thanks for the history lesson. Funny how all that NEVER came up in my Catholic school upbringing. I shudder to think of it all.
Was the coffee good at least? Hmmm... caffeinated christ...
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 4:29 PM
Yeah, in the same way that an exhausted parent shuts up his child's constant "why"s with a firm "because!" If you'd like, science could do the same.
Yeah, good thing the various churches have all been in universal, unchanging agreement for the last few millennia. Fucking Galileo--all he did was reiterate what the church had been saying all along: We've always been at war with Eastasia.
I'll take the humility of science over the humility of religion any day.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 4:29 PM
Thank you John spambot, you have wonderfully demonstrated how religious people cannot refrain from the emotional raping of others. You feel you have the right to go to someone else's blog and copy paste massive amounts of religious drivel so as to interrupt conversation.
People like you are the reason I feel that the Abrahamic religions teach followers to rape and violate. You have no comprehension of personal boundaries. You feel you are superior and have the right to emotionally rape and violate the rest of us.
You are frustrated by the inability to do bodily harm to PZ, so instead you abuse in any way you can. What would your jebuscracker do? Would his crumbliness approve of your behavior?
Come to think of it, he probably would, this kind of abusive behavior is exactly what your religion teaches you to do.
Posted by: WayBeyondSoccerMom | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
Yay, PZ!
(BTW, my right pointer finger is tired, after clicking past all those long winded nastygrams to you.)
Posted by: Chris Swanson | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
Books may just be paper, and non-sacred, but I do wince at seeing them at all disfigured and rather wish you would've come up with a different way doing that. Perhaps a poster of Darwin and a picture of that big stone block in Mecca that I can't ever remember how to correctly spell the name of?
Ah, well. C'est la vie, and shame to the Catholics for getting enraged over this when there is so much else in the world that needs to be worked on.
Posted by: AJ Milne | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
The spambot's a nice illustration of the thinking on this subject from certain parties from the very beginning, tho', innit? So very appropriate... And so of a piece with the same narrative, everywhere this thinking rears its ugly head.
They don't want to hear something? They find it offensive? Well, then, that settles it. No one should be allowed to say it. Verboten. End of story. They get to say. Their protestations of outrage are taken to trump all other considerations. Our beliefs will not be mocked. Because we will not let you mock them. Because we can't take it. Because it threatens us.
So, thwarted in this attempt, they'll still attempt to suppress that expression of ridicule by whatever means necessary. And since the death threats failed, the endless kvetching failed, the endless, circular, repeatitive attempts at misdirection, changing the subject, burying the whole thing in pseudolegalistic bafflegab, shouting 'bigot' reflexively and repeatedly all failed, what's next up?
Why, massive quantities of spam, natch.
It's a priceless illustration. Couldn't have drawn it better myself.
Posted by: Richard Harris | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
"Just the mere thought of desecrating the Holy Eucharist is enough to get one into hell."
Well, I'm thinking about desecrating it, like spitting on it, pissing on it, shitting on it, or feeding it to the dog. He'd still eat it after that treatment, too.
Oh feck, now I'm gonna go to hell, bwahahaha. Well, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend an eternity in feckin' heaven with those crazy Christians. Feckin' religious edjits.
Posted by: kestrien | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
The Donohue press release has landed!
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1465
Get ready for more hate mail, PZ.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
Didn't you guys know that if you repeat nonsense enough, it becomes more credible over time... if anything the RC church is an example of that. What we're observing here is the slow accumulation of micro-credibility into macro-credibility over time.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 4:31 PM
DELETE THE SPAM.
Posted by: GeoffI | July 24, 2008 4:31 PM
The person who is spamming this forum is demonstrably an idiot and a sore loser too.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:31 PM
@Fr. J: Yea, like they're gonna listen to you. They're busy having an orgasm, isn't it evident?
But hey, if you really want them to stop, you could pray to Jesus. He would break their computers. But then again, you would've tried that on PZ's arms first.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:32 PM
"The out of control Catholic spam on this thread is a good example of their fake morality."
LOL, desecration = super cool, spam = immoral, u = moron.
Tried to keep that simple for you sporty.
Posted by: delosgatos | July 24, 2008 4:32 PM
To skip the spam, just note the post number and search for the subsequent number. And firefox opens the find in a bar at the bottom and leaves it up - makes it quite quick.
Papa J - or is it Fryer J? - You don't believe in the good, true, or beautiful-you can't. Such things require objective goodness, truth, and beauty.
Lol. Weak.
Posted by: Jay | July 24, 2008 4:33 PM
Somebody sure does love their "cut and paste".
So much wasted effort. So little thinking.
Posted by: Dahan | July 24, 2008 4:33 PM
At 693,
"Interesting. Apparently you view Richard Dawkins' book as a holy text?"
No shit for brains, that's his point, he pointed it out very clearly. THERE ARE NO HOLY THINGS!!! Dawkin's book isn't holy, neither is the Koran, and neither's the cracker. That's why he can destroy them without feeling concerned in any way. How can you be so willfully obtuse?
He didn't say "I'm gonna destroy some holy things." for fuck's sake.
Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist | July 24, 2008 4:33 PM
"Bone pastor, panis vere,
Iesu, nostri miserere..."
From the encyclical posted by Hussien Obama Nut-job to screw-up the thread.
Translation: "Priest's boner pains rear, increases our misery."
My Latin is pretty weak. Sorry.
Posted by: Laurie Mann | July 24, 2008 4:34 PM
I'm so glad I'm an atheist!
PZ, you rock!
My husband, raised a Catholic, used to pretend Necco wafers were the host and would "play mass" with them. Guess he'll "burn in hell" too.
Can't say we lose any sleep over that.
Posted by: Bas | July 24, 2008 4:34 PM
Quick! Somebody update the wikipedia entry! :)
Posted by: Thomas R. Holtz, Jr. | July 24, 2008 4:34 PM
@Fr.J,
"no I will not give my name and address."
I never asked for an address.
So I call you coward or liar. Either you are a priest who fails to live up to his calling and publically and OPENLY proclaim his faith before the people, or you are a priest wannabe who seeks to pretend he has taken up that mantle without undergoing the long process of the seminary.
Having known a number of priests in my time, I suspect you are in fact the latter.
So take a page from spammer-boy, and take up a new handle.
Posted by: Must Conform | July 24, 2008 4:34 PM
Must conform to liberal academia.
Must conform to liberal academia.
Must conform to liberal academia.
Fight the Power.
The power is academic liberal orthodoxy
Posted by: Aaron | July 24, 2008 4:34 PM
@Fr. J:
EPIC FAIL.
http://www.alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/photogallery.html
Posted by: D. Edward Farrar | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Fr. J - There are no atheists out there trying to kill you for being silly. And a cracker is still just a cracker, even if you worship it.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Spamming comment threads makes the baby Jesus cry.
Posted by: Zaphod | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Bill Donohue said:
> 'Expressions of disrespectful bias, hate, harassment or
> hostility against an individual, group or their property
> because of the individual or group's actual or perceived
> race, color, creed, religion...can be forms of
> discrimination. Expressions vary, and can be in the form
> of language, words, signs, symbols, threats, or actions
> that could potentially cause alarm, anger, fear, or
> resentment in others...even when presented as a joke.'
Disrespecting a cracker endowed with magical properties by magical mumbo jumbo != disrespecting an individual, group or their property.
Posted by: Jon | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Can someone please post the WHOLE Bible instead of small random excerpts?
Greatly appreciated.
Posted by: Ticktockman | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Ya know, I think we can have a rapprochement here. I figure if PZ can demonstrate that he defiled an innocent, under-aged cracker then hid the evidence, Catholics like Fr.J won't have such a problem with it. Everyone's a winner!
-TTm
Posted by: tsg | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Bigger Pile of Bodies argument. Nothing to see here.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 4:36 PM
"Oh feck, now I'm gonna go to hell, bwahahaha. Well, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend an eternity in feckin' heaven with those crazy Christians. Feckin' religious edjits."
I secured my ticket when I took the blasphemy challenge a couple of years ago.
Window seat please!
Posted by: Patricia | July 24, 2008 4:36 PM
Somebody please grab John & bend him over, I've got a pineapple!
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 4:37 PM
Awww...
The religiobots are raiding us... How cute.
If this is the extent of the influence of god on Earth, Pascal's wager is even more absurd than I thought. Anyway, godbotters and their infantile copypasta will only succeed in boring us today, in this particular thread. But the point has been made, the idea will endure. And no amount of idiotic comment pestering will change that.
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 4:38 PM
Pat,
As a Christian, you no doubt have a warped sense of morality.
For most of us atheists, morality is a question of suffering versus happiness, not what custom dictates.
No one suffered physical pain as a result of PZ's desecration. Whatever sort of emotional stress they might have suffered is absolutely baseless, and that's the whole point of this exercise--to point out how ridiculous this particular belief is.
Spamming on the other hand is actively disrupting communication, and if you are doing it, you can kiss my ass.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:38 PM
http://www.alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/13nunspavelic.jpg
Holy smokes how can these ladies take themselves seriously? It's too much even for an Halloween costume!
Posted by: El Herring | July 24, 2008 4:38 PM
To hell with this, I'm not reading this page until the spam vomit has been cleaned up.
I sincerely hope that July 24 2008 will be remembered as the day organised religion was finally exposed for scam it really is, and the colossal fraud it has imposed on the entire human race for the last 2000 years (or more).
Well, I can dream, can't I?
Posted by: Parsnip Money | July 24, 2008 4:39 PM
Fr.J:
the statement 'nothing is sacred' does not mean that we do not believe in truth. In fact, it implies the opposite: the idea of a commonplace object being 'sacred' is an insult to the concept of truth in that it is a spurious claim that cannot be supported by evidence. What you call 'truth,' I call an unsubstantiated yet successful memeplex.
The word 'sacred' has nothing to do with the word 'truth' if you actually look the word up. 'Sacred' relates exclusively to religious objects and ideas, and 'truth' was around way before any religion was.
P.S. "Nothing you say will convince me otherwise because it is true."
if you really believe that truth is sacred, then you should not only be careful about where you get your truths from, but also be open to the idea that what you believe to be true may in fact not be. Or have you never changed your mind about anything before in your life?
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 24, 2008 4:39 PM
Dr. Myers?
You are a brilliant man. Thank you for writing these things which must be told. Thank you for reminding those who wish to do us all great harm of their history of constant, unmitigated hatred toward their fellow human beings in the name of their small, petty faith.
I hope just one believer takes to heart your well-chosen words and learns that, even though religion itself is neither good nor bad, it's what you do with that faith that will determine whether you are an evil human being or a good person.
I for one am very glad you showed this cracker the respect it truly deserves in the world of the rational adult.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:39 PM
"Spamming on the other hand is actively disrupting communication, and if you are doing it, you can kiss my ass. "
Awe gee shucks. Here I thought we were going to be pals. Go John go!
Posted by: Paul D | July 24, 2008 4:40 PM
In other news, Uncircumcised Heart would make a great band name.
Posted by: Cardinal Shrew | July 24, 2008 4:41 PM
The cut and paste patsies, poor impotent fools that have not the mind to fight their own fights or the courage to defend the points they post. Cowards, cutting and pasting from sock puppet personas they conjure, to annoy and infuriate us. They speak of high and mighty virtue and yet display none of it themselves. They are hypocrites and cowards.
When people post opinions I don't agree with them I can at least respect them for standing toe to toe and arguing with what they have. The childish impotent fools that do nothing but cut and paste are no better than the spoiled child that that takes his ball and goes home when he doesn't win.
I pity them.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 4:42 PM
FYI: The easiest way to skip the denial-of-service spam is to search for the text at the end. I find "Given in Rome" works so far.
In Firefox or IE, use Control-F to bring up the search dialog.
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 4:42 PM
Pat,
You have no arguments, you can only cover your ears and scream. Pathetic.
Posted by: Zaphod | July 24, 2008 4:42 PM
PaulD said:
> In other news, Uncircumcised Heart would make a great
> band name.
LOL!
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 4:42 PM
Unsurprisingly, Padre J demonstrates that he has not learned one thing about atheists or atheism in all this time. His heart has been hardened. Sad, really. May Jesus or some other associated deity show him the way.
Posted by: Janus | July 24, 2008 4:43 PM
Spamming a thread does actual harm (admittedly, very little harm, but still): It disturbs the ordinary flow of a discussion. If you want to compare it to something, compare it to singing a rock song really loudly during a Catholic ceremony.
'Desecrating' a holy cracker does no harm whatsoever. There are millions of holy crackers. They're mass-produced and mass-blessed. They're handed out for free. PZ doing anything he likes to a cracker in the privacy of his home doesn't disturb anyone. The only thing it hurts is your feelings. Well, that's too bad, but your feelings are your problem, not PZ's, especially since the source of your feelings is a baseless superstition.
Posted by: Morse | July 24, 2008 4:43 PM
Go John go!
Yes John, go. Because your posts will be permanent. There is no possible way PZ will be able to delete all your posts and then ban your IP address from posting on his site. That is far beyond the power of mere mortal men.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 4:43 PM
I said earlier: The out of control Catholic spam on this thread is a good example of their fake morality.
Pat, if you need more examples of the immorality of Catholics, read what PZ said at the top of this thread. With that kind of bloody history, Catholics would throw out their religion if they had any moral values at all.
Posted by: rb | July 24, 2008 4:43 PM
From Catholic League site:
Donohue may have a slight point here, although only if a Catholic student or colleague felt that PZ was directing actions at them (I think).
Posted by: Mr. C | July 24, 2008 4:44 PM
For all of you wondering if the host is consecrated or not, what does it matter? Your interest in that particular question only suggests one of two things 1)you are actually entertaining the possiblity that it is something more than a cracker or 2)you are hoping it is consecrated because you know that makes a difference to Catholics and it will piss them off all that much more, in which case you're just as stupid and childish as PZ for starting this in the first place, and just as stupid and offensive as the individuals who are making threats towards PZ. Grow up, people!
Posted by: Dave UH | July 24, 2008 4:44 PM
I'm going to make a little video. Thanks for a great read PZ
Posted by: King Aardvark | July 24, 2008 4:44 PM
Beautifully written. In my discussions with other atheist bloggers, I became worried that the anger you would incite would trump any point you were making, but you desecrated that wafer in the best possible way. Kudos.
Btw, that is an artistic photo there. Can you post a higher resolution picture so I can use it as my wallpaper?
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 4:44 PM
Tom, I hesitate to imagine the kind of priests you know. I wonder if they know you? Do they know that you are all for desecrating the Eucharist? Do they know that you don't seem to mind others calling all priests pedophiles? Are you shocked that I object to such things? Is that why you doubt my credentials? I have openly proclaimed the faith, which really seems to have annoyed you. Utterly ludicrous.
I doubt you. I think you are someone who would do me harm and is just trying to bait me into giving out personal information where hundreds can see it. I would be harassed and perhaps endangered.
It won't work. I really don't care what you think. Would I post here if I cared what atheists thought of me? As far as I know you are a nut who would shoot me. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Posted by: Jonathan | July 24, 2008 4:45 PM
I'm loving all the accusations that PZ took a non-consecrated cracker to throw in the trash. What possible motivation would he have for faking this? It's not like it's hard to get your hands on a Jesus cracker, it's not like he fears the fiery pits of hell, it's not like he cares whether the cracker is "Jesus" or not "Jesus".
I'm going to have to agree with the other people who chimed in. Figure out a way to test if a wafer is consecrated. It's true that we only have his word, but why should we not believe him?
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:46 PM
Yes Pat, go john go for he and you are proving that you are afraid to have a conversation and would rather destroy than actually talk. By the way, it's lame and it does not prove any point. It just makes you a lousy spammer. It's like a child plugging its ears going "LALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING I'M NOT LISTENING."
You have proven you have no arguments left, you have proven that you have no life. You have proven that you are a silly devout. In fact, you should be outside helping the poor instead of wasting your time copy pasting here. I'm sure Jesus is sad for you right now.
Are you thinking that spamming the internet will get you a free ticket to Heaven? It's not how it works.
PS: How much money you have? Did you give everything you have to the poor yet, like you should?
Posted by: El Herring | July 24, 2008 4:46 PM
All hail the great god Copyandpaste!
Seriously, is that the best you can do? 2000 years of suffocating oppression and violence has now been reduced to spamming weblogs. I bet you long for the good old days when you could burn us evile herry ticks at the stake and dance on our graves singing hally loo ya.
Religion. What good has it ever done anyone?
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 4:46 PM
Damn!
Just got the memo back from legal-
Seems like we can't use CHRISTESSENCE Table Wafers.
Bill Donohue holds the trademark on Christ - Who knew?
Undaunted, we shall continue with-
CristESSENCE Table Wafers - "It's good for the soul!"
now available in fun colors!
Pure White,
Papal Purple, and
Shoes of the Fisherman Red
...
..
.
Posted by: Brian D | July 24, 2008 4:47 PM
To everyone actually following the discussion here:
GreaseMonkey is an excellent addition to Firefox, and there's a simple killfile script available for it that works on ScienceBlogs. I've just searched for text near the end of the BibleBot's ejaculations, and clicked "kill" every time I see it -- and the page is noticably shorter as a result, as it often gets more than one repost in just one click.
Posted by: J.H. Christy | July 24, 2008 4:47 PM
Man! Copy and pasting shit from the pope and the bible has really convinced me that I, a fornicating, lying, blaspheming atheist, am truly truly wrong!
WOE IS OUR ATHEISTIC REASOING AND RHETORIC! Who could have forseen the power of the ctrl+c/ctrl+v touch of death combo!
Oh well, seeing as how I've converted to catholism now, guess I'll go rape me some little boys.
Posted by: Stephen Ockham | July 24, 2008 4:47 PM
Right on PZ, glad to see it done.
Now to kick back and watch the religious nuts humilate themselves in return.
Cost of stunt: negligible
Results: Priceless
Posted by: Bunk | July 24, 2008 4:48 PM
At #727
Oh yeah?!
Bravo PZ. Looks like you're going to have to take out some more Catholic trash with the book paster.
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 4:48 PM
"I have openly proclaimed the faith"
And you deserve our ridicule for it.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 4:48 PM
Fr J,
Go bugger an alterboy.
Posted by: SR | July 24, 2008 4:48 PM
Well, kudos on keeping to your word.
But damn, hire a bodyguard /now/. Preferably a non-religious one. Or several. I'm not kidding.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:49 PM
"You have no arguments, you can only cover your ears and scream."
LOL, now you've gone and hurt my feelings. Not. Get over yourself dude. I'm just enjoying the sideshow.
Dance!
Posted by: Sastra | July 24, 2008 4:49 PM
Well said, PZ. And using The God Delusion is a better choice than The Origin of Species, since it continues to keeps the whole evolution issue out of it. This issue has nothing to do with creationism (though some of the Catholic commenters seem to be confused).
Rayven Alandria #734 wrote:
Ah, no, Rayven. Comparing some childish spam attempts to "emotional rape and violation" is the sort of overblown rhetoric and failure to make distinctions which started this whole mess in the first place.
Sooner or later, PZ will remove and delete these unnecessary posts on the history of the Eucharist. I assume it's a simplistic attempt to teach us what it feels like to have "personal boundaries" crossed, and there's not any intention to educate (I'm sure as heck not reading that mess.) Of course, it's a poor analogy. It would be better for St Spam to post some snide comments about the absurdity of atheism on HIS blog, and then see how WE like it.
We either won't care, or will come and try to argue points. What we won't do is ask that our sensitivities be respected, and he be expelled from his school or fired from his job.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 4:49 PM
It won't work. I really don't care what you think. Would I post here if I cared what atheists thought of me? As far as I know you are a nut who would shoot me. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 4:44 PM
The pedophile above raises an interesting point. It thinks it has eternal life in heaven. It, therefore, cannot be killed. As a matter of fact, the only rational conclusion to draw from people who believe as this pedophile does is that Christians, generally speaking, are immortals who cannot be killed. If they are alive in heaven, then by definition they aren't dead anywhere.
So why would they be so worried about getting shot?
Posted by: SR | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
Well, kudos on keeping to your word.
But damn, hire a bodyguard /now/. Preferably a non-religious one. Or several. I'm not kidding.
Posted by: Iason Ouabache | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
Seriouisly, why isn't there a limit to the number of characters you can put in the comment box? That would have taken care of this problem before it even started.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
Fr. J. You are paranoid. I don't think we can say much more. I certainly wouldn't kill you for I'm actually, GASP, a moral person. Like most people on earth are. Just because we don't have your beliefs does not make us monsters. (But just between you and me, giving info on the net would be absolutely stupid. It's the best way to get spam snail mail.)
It's pretty sad that you believe so, but then again it is written in the bible for you to do so. I guess you can't help it.
Posted by: BostonRob | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
religion breeds the most disgustingly vile haters in our country
Haha, sorry about this, but the "youth terminology" leaked into my mind when I read this. Hate the game, not the playah! Hoo boy. Nearly Friday.
Posted by: Christophe Thill | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
- "Klaatu barada niktu" is NOT in the Necronomicon. Let's not get confused with "Iä Shub-Niggurath, the Black Goat of the woods with a thousand young". I admit the confusion is possible.
- I still don't understand why some ignorant guys insist that the Nazi holocaust was perpetrated by atheists. Hitler said he was doing "the work of the Creator" (the quotation is now rather famous). I guess most of the SS were brought up in the dominant Lutheran religion. But they had a sort of semi-official mystic, deriving from ancient Germanic polytheism. Atheism was definitely not an option.
- PZ, that's terrible? What have you done to the banana, the fruit most loved by the Almighty? Remember, He loved mankind so much that He gave it this unique fruit, just the right size to fit a human hand. Mistreating a banana is more than a crime.
- I had never heard the story about the church of the Billettes. Well, now I know. It was built on the site of a destroyed house belonging to a Jew, who was killed (the story goes) for desecrating the host. How charming.
Posted by: foxfire | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
Well done PZ!
There once was a teacher called P-Zed,
who dishonored a relic of stale bread;
This raised catholic ire
and the lambkins did fire
threats of great harm and to make-dead.
Posted by: Mark B | July 24, 2008 4:51 PM
Hey PZ:
1. How about a post character limit? Although it might be hard on some of the more thoughtful posters, 4096 characters would be enough for most posts. If someone has something longer to say, they can split it into tow posts.
2. How about a little javascript to defeat the most common forms of cut-and-paste. You can easily write something to defeat right clicking and cntrl-V. I suspect you can defeat dragging text in with the mouse, but I don't know how to do that off the top of my head. Such things are pretty easy to defeat, but it should stop some of the stupider spammers from pasting in long screeds.
Posted by: Rourke | July 24, 2008 4:51 PM
As an ex-Catholic I have to say, bravo. I used to be a "liberal Catholic" who liked the idea of openmindedness, but hated it in practice. I've been to Catholic schools where they teach modern ideas of democracy and tolerance right beside the myth that the Middle Ages wasn't that bad, the Catholic Church had nothing to do with it, and the world is horrible because of secular humanism (gasp!) They also taught the myth that evolution is "guided", that we had to respect Tradition with a capital "T", and all *sorts* of other myths besides! I feel bad for you, having to suffer through all the mindless idiot comments from supposedly "modern" Catholics getting all riled up about this. The Catholic Church, for the small good it sometimes does (Catholic Charities, etc.) is a relic of the Middle Ages. Good grief!
Posted by: Jason Failes | July 24, 2008 4:51 PM
Never have so many had so much to say about such a small and meaningless thing.
Cheers, PZ, maybe some will stick around and learn a little when the sharp point of your intellect is pointing at some other target, or pointing to some new and interesting piece of biological science.
I guess that's my challenge, angry Catholics. Don't leave with the cracker, stay and read PZ's posts for a year. You just may find that empiricism, science, and rational thinking are not only infectious, but a hell of a lot of fun, too.
Posted by: ennui | July 24, 2008 4:52 PM
Phase 1 is finally complete: crackerjack/crackerfrack/crackerwhack.
I anxiously await Phase 2: PZ and Ken Miller formal debate on the subject of transubstantiation. Watch the NOMA people squirm! Watch the framers sweat!
C'mon PZ, put out the challenge! Teh internets demands it.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 4:52 PM
Sir, I salute you. Mmm, banana flavored coffee :)
Posted by: pcarini | July 24, 2008 4:52 PM
I'm sure I'm incredibly late to the fray now, but excellent post PZ.
Also, Firefox has this lovely feature where you can type in a word an go to its position on the page instantly. Zipping past the super long eucharist spam takes about 3 keystrokes: Ctrl+F + [the number of the post after it]
Posted by: BostonRob | July 24, 2008 4:52 PM
religion breeds the most disgustingly vile haters in our country
Haha, sorry about this, but the "youth terminology" leaked into my mind when I read this. Hate the game, not the playah! Hoo boy. Nearly Friday.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 4:53 PM
Just about time to imprison the spamming godbot douchebag, innit?
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 4:53 PM
Great job, Professor Myers. You have intentionally insulted the world's one billion Catholics, the vast, vast majority of which have done absolutely nothing to you, in order to get back at a few dozen who sent you rude emails. Bravo.
Do you think you're the first to desecrate the Eucharist? You aren't the first, and you won't be the last - it has been desecrated for nearly 2,000 years, as we Catholics have believed in transubstantiation since long before the 13th century. St. Augustine, a man from the 4th century, wrote about the Eucharist being the actual Body and Blood of Christ, after all.
But, if it makes you feel better to believe that we arbitrarily invented transubstantiation 800 years ago in order to persecute Jews, who am I to ask that you bother to argue according to historical fact?
Though I do have one critique of your desecration method. You should have nailed the Eucharist to a small wooden cross. Then you could have said to it, If you truly are the Christ, come down from the Cross and save yourself, and then proceeded to sneer at and mock the 'cracker' when nothing happened. That would have been an excellent reenactment of what happened nearly 2,000 years ago. Plus it would have made you look even more ridiculous than you already do.
Anyway, it's too bad your acolytes don't take your advice when you ask them to question everything. Obviously they don't question your actions, no matter how stupid and illogical they may be.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 4:53 PM
Sir, I salute you. Mmm, banana flavored coffee :)
Posted by: Gilipollas Caraculo | July 24, 2008 4:54 PM
(Holding a gun on a wafer)
Gimme your money or the cracker gets it!
Posted by: minus | July 24, 2008 4:55 PM
Referenc 553:
"When all the howling, gnashing of teeth, pontification and squealing is done tis just a cracker...live with it...!"
I always wondered about that. How does one gnash one's teeth anyway?
Great Job PZ, and I don't mean the book of...
Posted by: Voltaire | July 24, 2008 4:55 PM
@804 - unfounded claims that he is a pedophile = not cool.
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 4:55 PM
Holy fuck, the spam.
Well, it just helps prove the point.
Posted by: James Stein | July 24, 2008 4:55 PM
Delete the spam please, and kudos on throwing out the trash!
Posted by: anthropic | July 24, 2008 4:55 PM
PZ,
I admire your science and your efforts in educating those who are ignorant of it. This blog is the first one I read every day (often more than once a day). But this whole cracker thing is beneath you. It has hurt the cause of rational thought.
Rational thinkers (those who do not rely on accepting things as true without evidence) all know it's just a piece of unleavened bread. But this incident is nothing more than a provocation of those who live with their delusions. It makes atheists look like wackos (just horses of a different color).
Everything Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, and you have worked so hard for up until now has suffered a major set back as the result of this whole thing. Rather than continuing to use reason and knocking down delusional behavior by presenting evidence, all this did was to draw unfavorable attention. Now we - atheists - look like as stupid as the delusional hate-flled morons we are trying so hard to debunk.
I'm sorry to say, but you went too far with this one. You were miles ahead and now we're all rolling in the mud with cretins (who will probably succeed in hurting you or getting you fired). You are outstanding in your clarity of thought and on principle I agree with you 100%.
If you want to get rid of a hornets nest you can freeze it. Then you nicely clip it off the stem, wrap it in a bag, and dispose of it. Unfortunately, what you did was whack it with a stick, just to show that you could.
Please, please, please, get back to science; to rational thinking. Don't stoop to the level of the cretins. Battle them with sound scientific evidence. This is not Springer, after all.
Posted by: D. Edward Farrar | July 24, 2008 4:56 PM
mick lafferty:
"the atheistic nazis killing 6 million Jews and 10 million others."
When will you learn: Hitler was Catholic! (So were all but one of the major Fascist leaders, by the way: So there you have Mussolini, Franco, Salazar, Laval and Petain...some of the minor dictators were even priests. Oh, the exception was Quisling in Norway. He was Protestant. None of them was an atheist.)
And if you were planning on playing that game where you claim he was only pretending to be a Christian, then presumably you believe all the other good Germans who packed the church pews on Sundays before returning to their jobs as Concentration Camp guards or Gestapo torturers or Hitler Youth guarding railroad stations to make sure the Jews did not escape when their trains stopped (like young Joseph Ratzinger, before he became Pope - you do recall he was a Hitler Youth don't you?) were faking it too. They were not obviously.
WW2 was just not a high point in the history of the Catholicism, even before Bishop Alois Hudal assisted prominent Nazis in escaping to South America. So in the future, I advise you to avoid mentioning the entire period if you are trying to defend your church.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 4:56 PM
Don't you find it odd that if we went to a catholic site and pasted huge texts blocks in an attempt to crash the server they would be demanding that we be charged with a hate crime?
In their eyes it's not a hate crime when it's done to Atheists.
As I said before though, at least he serves as wonderful example of what we've been saying about Abrahamic religions teaching people to abuse others.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 4:56 PM
Spam may be repetitious, but so are the atheist's comments. I should offer a reward for a new idea from the atheists.
The Catholic League may indeed have a point. Dr. Myers may have violated UM standards. I am sure you all would want him held accountable? Of course, you could push to eliminate such policies at universities. But that would leave atheists nothing to hide behind.
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 4:57 PM
Kudos to Bill Donahue--go get him, Tiger! Donahue's analogies were great. Would a University stand for it if one of its professors donned a white hood, burned a cross on his front lawn, said "I hate Niggers", and posted that film on the Internet? No. The University would fire him. Would a University stand for it if one of its professors posted a picture of himself wearing a swastika t-shirt with "Jews Suck" emblazoned thereon, ripping a Torah, and placing it in the trash bin with a side of ham? No. The University would fire him. It's time to treat Catholics with the same respect. Fire the bum!!! Myers didn't keep his hatred and bigotry to himself--he posted it on the Internet for all the world to see. That made it the University's business; that made it fair game in terms of firing him. Who wants such an immature bigot teaching our students? I'd be willing to guess that he subtly or not-so-subtly carries over his prejudices into the classroom. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he mocks Catholics and other Christians in his classroom. (Heck, I heard at least 3 public school teachers insult Catholics during classtime when I was a kid.) Or perhaps he gives his Catholic students lower grades when they stand up for their religion? We just don't know. The bottom line is, a puerile, adolescent, hate-filled bigot should not hold a position as a professor at any reputable University. I call on the students to boycott his classes, the teachers to yell for his resignation, and the University to fire him. And to all his dumb-ass groupies on this website, you should recognize that the Catholic Church is the single largest charitable provider in the WORLD. Don't discount the amazing love and kindness the Church shows the world each day simply because a handful of homosexual priests broke their vows. The VAST majority of priests have remained faithful to their vows and have sacrificed their lives to help other people. I'm wasting my breath, though. Closed-minded bigots will never change.
Posted by: Homeotic | July 24, 2008 4:57 PM
From recent Catholic League Press Release: Concluding paragraph..."It is important for Catholics to know that the University of Minnesota will not tolerate the deliberate destruction of the Eucharist by one of its faculty. Just as African Americans would not tolerate the burning of a cross, and Jews would not tolerate the display of swastikas, Catholics will not tolerate the desecration of the Eucharist."
Non-sequitur alert! How can the CL make these comparisons. Utter inanity.
Posted by: Muffin | July 24, 2008 4:57 PM
^5 PZ!
Posted by: River | July 24, 2008 4:58 PM
I like how Catholics think spamming this blog with their frivolous, giant blocks of inanity will actually do anything.
Anyway, I really liked this post and how it attacked the frivolity of belief in deities and sacred objects. That's one of the things I love about PZ: his mysterious use of evidence and reason when he makes an argument.
One of things I like about Buddhism is that the Dali Lama once said that if Buddhist teachings did not match those teachings of science, then it was the Buddhist teachings which should be modified--not the other way around. If only more religions followed that standard, then I think the world would be a better place. I've also never met a Buddhist who thought it was his/her duty to convert me.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:59 PM
#799 Concern troll! Lets get him!
Posted by: the strangest brew | July 24, 2008 4:59 PM
They lay their religion bare...for all to witness the gutless,pointless,mind numbing,idiocy of their position.
This is the level of intelligence they display,how out of touch with reality,brain dead incompetent posers...spectacularly how incapable of being of the Christian faith that these pathetic vermin so stridently boast and claim they are...Lying hypocritical posers.
Devoid of meaning, devoid of life, devoid of relevance,devoid of dignity and devoid of honour and certainly devoid of grace...may their god forgive them for their insanity...
They should be thoroughly ashamed of their religion...and thoroughly ashamed of themselves above all.
Posted by: Christian Ridley | July 24, 2008 4:59 PM
After reading this article, if I could pick out one defining point in my life in which my atheism was confirmed above all, I would place this moment near to the top. This whole outrage over a cracker has done nothing but affirm my intense disgust for Catholicism and religion.
Well done PZ for finally doing it, it can't be easy right now being you with all this bullshit flying around, but you have support the world over.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 4:59 PM
CristESSENCE Table Wafers - "It's good for the soul!"
now fortified with iron!
...
..
.
Posted by: Heteroscedasticity | July 24, 2008 5:00 PM
As an Atheist I must say I agree with your post anthropic
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 5:00 PM
The Catholic League is all about getting upset for the sake of getting upset. How do they know the cracker had the magic spell put on it? How do they know for certain that it is the Eucharist? Before thinking, they want blood. Also, can they not read??? What about the death threats?? Just ignore those and not take responsibility like cowards.
This is my favorite part. And I hope the Catholics and apologetics roll this paragraph around in their mouth and read it aloud before they post anything:
"I think if I were truly evil, I would have to demand that all of my acolytes be celibate, but would turn a blind eye to any sexual depravities they might commit. If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I'd drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue. If I wanted to commit world-class evil, I'd undermine efforts at family planning by the poor, especially if I could simultaneously enable the spread of deadly diseases. And if I wanted to be so evil that I would commit a devastating crime against the whole of the human race, twisting the minds of children into ignorance and hatred, I would be promoting the indoctrination of religion in children's upbringing, and fomenting hatred against anyone who dared speak out in defiance."
Posted by: Charles | July 24, 2008 5:00 PM
here is little Effie's head
whose brains are made of gingerbread
when judgment day comes
God will find six crumbs
stooping by the coffinlid
waiting for something to rise
as the other somethings did-
you imagine his surprise
bellowing through the general noise
Where is Effie who was dead?
-to God in a tiny voice,
i am may the first crumb said
whereupon its fellow five
crumbs chuckled as if they were alive
and number two took up the song
might i'm called and did no wrong
cried the third crumb, i am should
and this is my little sister could
with our big brother who is would
don't punish us for we were good;
and the last crumb with some shame
whispered unto God, my name
is must and with the others i've
been Effie who isn't alive
just imagine it I say
God amid a monstrous din
watch your step and follow me
stooping by Effie's little, in
(want a match or can you see?)
which the six subjective crumbs
twitch like mutilated thumbs;
picture His peering biggest whey
coloured face on which a frown
puzzles, but I know the way-
(nervously Whose eyes approve
the blessed while His ears are crammed
with the strenuous music of
the innumerable capering damned)
-staring wildly up and down
the here we are now judgment day
cross the threshold have no dread
lift the sheet back in this way
here is little Effie's head
whose brains are made of gingerbread
E. E. Cummings
Posted by: LawnBoy | July 24, 2008 5:01 PM
Brian D (#762),
Do you have that GreaseMonkey script (or a know a way for us to get it)?
Thanks
Posted by: Andrew | July 24, 2008 5:01 PM
Anyone want to specify how exactly one can use Greasemonkey to filter out all of this spam? Thanks! =)
Posted by: Jason Failes | July 24, 2008 5:02 PM
Oh, and PZ, if you need a bodyguard, I am 201cm, 285lbs, a 2dan, and I can yell a hell of a "NOOOOOOOO!" while jumping in front of you to block a bullet.
However, I will not work for stale bread. I don't care how many gods it has in it....
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 5:02 PM
Like Christian Ridley it was not until all this cracker furore kicked off that I realised just how vile Catholicism is, and how nasty some of its adherehents could be.
Well done Fr J. You have confirmed in my mind yours is a vile, petty, vindictive religion that cares more for dogma than it does for people.
Posted by: Numad | July 24, 2008 5:03 PM
"[...]simply because a handful of homosexual priests broke their vows."
You are pondscum.
Posted by: TomJoe | July 24, 2008 5:03 PM
So PZ, that's the best you could come up with? Sheesh.
How anti-climactic.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:03 PM
Yah, spam-free since 5 PM (Eastern).
Posted by: GeoffI | July 24, 2008 5:05 PM
thanks Brian D! For anyone who is interested:
Greasemonkey
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/748
Killfile for science blogs
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/4107
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 5:06 PM
Myers: Thanks for giving us your take on the Year 1215. Did you know we're now in the year 2008? Maybe you didn't get the memo. If I follow your "logic" correctly, the Catholic Church did a few things you didn't like in the year 1215, so you feel justified today in desecrating Catholic property and intentionally baiting Catholics? Talk about holding a grudge. I think society in general was a little rough in the middle ages--not just the Catholic Church. I think people have gotten much more civilized over the centuries. Most of us have, anyway. You're obviously still a brutish, uncivilized, dumb ass. If we follow your analogy, any non-Christians (including atheists) who committed brutal acts in the year 1215 or otherwise should be punished today--in 2008. Wow, you just set yourself up!
Posted by: Lord Zero | July 24, 2008 5:06 PM
Well, thats just what they deserve.
Rest in the trash can its just fitting.
Anyway, the idiot who copy-pasted all that
text must be really bored. Please it hurt
my eyes, could you delete it ?
Posted by: Jtradke | July 24, 2008 5:06 PM
Thanks for this, PZ. Excellent statement of protest.
Posted by: Rick Schauer | July 24, 2008 5:07 PM
Bravo, PZ!
Posted by: Richard Wolford | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
Hey there Sandi,
The Catholic church burned people; PZ tossed a cracker in the trash.
So kindly shut the fuck up you ignorant little tool.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
Sandi, read the original posts and get a clue.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
Ben, PZ doesn't believe that the truth is relative. No serious Secular Humanist does. PZ wouldn't be a scientist if he didn't view approximate truth as highly important to himself and others. The whole deal here is: your religious truth claim is false. The idea that those wafers are a dead Jewish man is groundless. There is no legitimate evidence for it. He's not a relativist, you are in insisting that he should respect a false claim as truth.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
anthropic, in a way you are right. He has done a disservice to your cause. However, your own prejudice betrays you. Those delusional cretins you bemoan are your fellow atheists. They also share your beliefs. They agree with your bigoted attitudes towards Christians. PZ shows us the true face behind the facade. Behind the mask is a sneer. Once you pierce that thin crust of geniality a scalding lava of hatred pours out. He is just out of the closet. You are no different from him, you just hide it better.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
In case anyone can still read through the barrage of BS...
Comment #89 wins.
Posted by: Nino | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
Well, this is absolute proof: religion is a spam... or was is scam???
Posted by: Rose | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
I suspect Bill Donowhore will have apoplexy when he discovers that PZ is only under the listed University rules when he is on campus or on official school business. What he does in his own home and on his own time is not under the jusristiction of the Univeristy.
Posted by: Cyde Weys | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
I know I'm just getting lost in the crowd now, but ...
I'd like to see some media coverage of this from the reality-based angle. You know, a reporter not credulously stating that destroying a cracker is some huge sacrilege.
It's not like it was even a good cracker or anything.
Posted by: Le Shreve | July 24, 2008 5:11 PM
Kudos. I am so inspired to end my self-imposed gag-order on the idiocy of religion for the sake of social harmony. Madness. Idiots. Hilarity!
Posted by: JoJo | July 24, 2008 5:11 PM
Isn't this the guy who was telling us about all those brave martyrs, dying at the hands of atheists or North Koreans or whatever? I guess his faith isn't that strong that he'd prove god's existence in a cracker by dying for his faith. Why am I not surprised?"Everyone wants to go to Heaven, nobody's in a hurry to get there." -Old Irish Saying
This canard has been disproved several times. You'd think that a guy with 12.52 degrees and an IQ of 142×10²³ would only have to be told once. Unless he's an unthinking ideologue.
Yep, unthinking ideologue.
"'What is truth?'said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
This is so much bushwah. I know they exist and I try to be good and true in my life (beauty, unfortunately, has been denied me). I just have other bases for goodness, truth and beauty than belief in The Big Guy In The Sky™. My goodness, truth and beauty are found internally, not forced upon me by an outside authority.
What are you babbling about, "Father"? Are you saying that The Big Guy In The Sky™ is the only source of goodness, truth and beauty? Several billion Hindus, Buddhists, animists, etc. would disagree with you.
Atheism is a disbelief in deities. Nothing more, nothing less. That you hate it, because it might make you actually examine your beliefs, is not our fault. For someone who's supposedly so smart, you are very narrow minded.
Yeah right. That's why you've been whining at us for the past several days. The only reason we may have lost is that we weren't having a contest in the first place.
The Galilean had not actually won, because Rome smuggled into the new 'Christianity' all its pet paganisms: polytheism, temple worship, priests, sacrifices and virgin cult. People could call themselves Christians while actually opposing Christianity.
Have I mentioned that you're still a patronizing, pompous prig?
Posted by: D. Edward Farrar | July 24, 2008 5:11 PM
Apparently Fr. J also wishes to pretend that Hitler wasn't Catholic, and that Joseph Ratzinger wasn't a member of the Hitler Youth before becoming Pope.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 5:12 PM
This desecration has been brought to you by:
The producers of Religulous, coming soon to a theater near you,
and,
The new Belgian owners of Amhauser Busch -
"This Bud's for Jesus!"
and,
new, low calorie, Christ o'Cracker Lite table wafers-
"Tastes Great!"
"Less God-Filling!"
...
..
.
Posted by: Dr_Dave | July 24, 2008 5:12 PM
I'm still not sure what I think about this whole thing, it had smacked of insult for insult's sake. But I suppose that's the whole point - people are being insulted over the fate of a ... biscuit. What bigger indictment of the inanity of "modern" religion?
Posted by: JeffreyD | July 24, 2008 5:12 PM
A very good post, sir. I salute you.
And now, for the last time - Pax Nabisco
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:12 PM
Trust me, I have no mask. Just a sneer for all the ignoramuses like you. Disclaimer: I am referring to ignoramuses, not christians.
Posted by: Waltherian Succession | July 24, 2008 5:12 PM
It's cute how Sandi @ #816 thinks it can make an argument. Lemme spell it out for you, kid:
Your bullshit theology, with its foundations laid at many such church conferences, is still steeped in Middle Age Magical Thinking. Case in point, the poor college kid who got death threats over nabbin' a damn cracker from church. PZ Myers here thought it was stupid to get all up in arms about cracker-desecration, which apparently is a crime to you guys. That cracker-desecration stuff comes from 1215.
Reading can open a whole world of understanding!
Posted by: Adam | July 24, 2008 5:13 PM
Dear Professor,
I guess I don't get it. As a Catholic, I am very saddened to see what was done. I also don't understand the point of the destruction of a Quran.
No one is forcing you to believe in God, to believe in the Eucharist.
Certainly the Church has done terrible things in the past. So has pretty much every group on the face of the planet. If you disagree, why not enter into dialogue to convince people of your point of view? The hatred spewed against you by Catholics is unfortunate, but the insults given to you were based on an insult to Christians.
You can think it's a cracker. I don't mind. I don't think many Catholics would mind. If you want to debate, that's just fine. You might even win some folks over to your point of view, and isn't that a better reward for you? What reward did you get from this? You made a lot of people mad. You got some attention. Is that really that fulfilling?
From what I've read of your work, you are incredibly intelligent. From the discussions I've heard you take part in, you are incredibly engaging. Certainly you and I disagree on many things, but how can a genuine discussion take place if you resort to this sort of behavior?
Some of my best friends are atheists and we have such great discussions. You could have engaged so many in great debate and even won many to your side, perhaps. Now, however, you have simply galvanized the teams. Those who support you now adore you. Those who disagree with you now despise you. What a shame the opportunity for scholarly debate has been lost.
Posted by: DMH | July 24, 2008 5:13 PM
Well done, PZ.
Truly a well-written piece; I will forward the link to my few catholic friends, if only one of them opens his/her mind, it will have been worth it.
Oh, by the way, I hope the jeebus-fanatics will soon learn than there is a subtle (!) difference in praying vs. preying for someone's soul. Or maybe they're just flouting their predatory instincts, for all to behold. Organised religion sickens me to my core.
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 5:13 PM
Apropos of nothing, this reminds me of a joke I heard a few years back...
Three men get shipwrecked and wash up on a tropical island, where they're captured by cannibals. They're terrified and they beg the cannibals not to eat them, so finally the cannibals' leader says, "Okay, we'll let you live, but only if you pass a test. The first part of the test is to go out into the jungle and collect ten pieces of fruit. I'll tell you the second part when you get back." The men all agree to the test and each heads out separately into the jungle to collect his fruit.
The first guy comes back with ten apples. The cannibal leader says, "Okay, good job. Now here's the second part of the test: if you can shove all ten of those apples up your ass and keep a straight face, you get to live, otherwise we kill you." So the guy tries his best to do it, but he only gets about three up there before he loses it and the cannibals kill him instantly.
Then the second guy comes back, and he's got ten tiny little berries. The cannibal leader tells him what he's got to do, and he gets started. He's got about eight up there, with little trouble and plenty of room for more when all of a sudden he bursts into uncontrollable laughter. So the cannibals kill him too.
The second guy gets to heaven and meets the first guy there, and the first guy says, "Hey man, what gives? You could've made it easy! Why'd you lose it at the end there?" And the second guy replies, "I just couldn't help it! I was going along with no trouble at all and I was sure I was gonna be okay, and then I saw the third guy coming back with pineapples!"
Posted by: Jamie | July 24, 2008 5:13 PM
nice work PZ, i have enjoyed following this.
i wonder if you have seen the new tarsem movie 'the fall' (dvd on sep. 9)? it's wonderful so i recommend it, but in it a little girl takes a cracker from a church because she is to young to understand the (absurd) significance. she eats it later, for the simple fact that she is hungry. wonder why a big hoopla wasn't made of this--i'm thinking it's because religious people listen more to what they are told from there idiot preachers then go to art house movie theaters.
Posted by: AJ Milne | July 24, 2008 5:14 PM
Anyone want to specify how exactly one can use Greasemonkey to filter out all of this spam? Thanks! =)
Install Greasemonkey first (Firefox extension) if you don't have it already, then go to the Dungeon tab. There's a link there to the killfile script. Follow it, there's a link to install the script. Then you'll get little 'kill' and 'hide comment' options next to all comments. Hide/kill to your heart's content.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 5:14 PM
Yeah, an unfortunate bit, that. The real unfortunate part is that you should have been insulted when your church was found to be complicit in the atrocities of the Nazis, and you should have been insulted when your head Pontiff assisted in the coverup of molestation by priests, and you should and should remain insulted when your leaders oppose methods of birth control that would save the lives of millions of Africans, and you should be insulted by the million of other insults to humanity your church sees fit to inflict upon the rest of us.
But it's pretty clear that all that matters to you people is the protection of your own beliefs and rituals, and damn the rest of the world.
Anyways, we're all terribly sorry that your feelings are hurt. If it makes you feel better, in the time that it took me to type this, ~50 Africans were just infected with HIV. So boo-fucking-hoo, you genocide-supporting prick.
Posted by: David Uezato | July 24, 2008 5:14 PM
#793,
The point of Dawkins, Hitchens, and the rest of them, is that religion should not be treated with any kind of respect. Do you not pick up on the contempt in the tone of their books and debates? Professor Myers has done nothing to tarnish their goals. He has infact exemplified the behavior they wish to see bestoyed upon religion in a very dignified manner. Not all atheists have the same goals as you or feel that the goal, of removing religion, will be achieved in the same way. Your input is appreciated but I ask you to understand the message of the people you refer to before you comment on them.
Posted by: JanieBelle | July 24, 2008 5:14 PM
Bravo, Dr. PZ.
A piece of art and reason for the ages, which I will not hold sacred!
Kisses to you
Posted by: Sconnor | July 24, 2008 5:15 PM
The picture is reminiscent of the Dutch artists, from the 17 century, who were masters of still life.
PZ, in a word -- BRILLIANT!
--S.
Posted by: Horwood Beer-Master | July 24, 2008 5:15 PM
Wait, old coffeegrounds?
BLASPHEMY!!!
Those should be tea-leaves dammit!
May Russell's teapot strike you down for your disgusting heathen choice of caffeinated beverage!
What next? Desecration of a Wedgwood set? I never thought I'd live to see such blatant anti-teapotist bigotry from a so-called college professor.
Posted by: firemancarl | July 24, 2008 5:15 PM
Look, I am just over joyed that PZ has referred to us as his acolytes. Damn, it feels good!
Posted by: StinkyFeet | July 24, 2008 5:15 PM
The only hate crime would be if P.Z. lost his professorship because of the idiocy of the Catholic League
Posted by: Ticktockman | July 24, 2008 5:16 PM
Posted by Rose:
"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
So *that's* what was up with the banana!
-TTm
Posted by: Tom L | July 24, 2008 5:16 PM
Haven't time to sift through all the comments to see if anybody has already made these points; please forgive if I'm being redundant.
1) The fact that no Muslims have bothered you over this is not any endorsement of their comparative tolerance; it's merely a demonstration of your principle that pious people are not actually opposed to desecration, only desecration of their particular symbols. Now that you have actually thrown away some pages from a Koran, I would not be surprised to see the Muslims join the fray.
2) It's unfortunate that you should choose to drive a nail through the Host, as that reinforces their silly stories about desecration. If you had wanted to reinforce your position about it being nothing but a cracker, the most appropriate thing to do with it would be what one does with any ordinary cracker: namely, unceremoniously eat it. (Preferably with Cheese Whiz, an approximate match in terms of palatability.)
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 5:16 PM
"I knew the first thing that would happen is that the loons would claim it is a fake cracker. The one I chose to photograph is one that the sender actually provided video documentation of where it came from.
Not that there's any substantial difference between the consecrated and unconsecrated version."
ROTFLMAO!
Posted by: rke | July 24, 2008 5:17 PM
The God Delusion? You bastard!
Posted by: Traffic Demon | July 24, 2008 5:17 PM
I used to be an atheist. PZ is my god now. RAmen.
Posted by: Kryth | July 24, 2008 5:18 PM
Hey PZ can I get that picture on a T-shirt?
Posted by: Jeff Knapp | July 24, 2008 5:18 PM
To st Luke and all the rest who keep posting this crap. It ain't gonna work! Fucking idiots.
At any time, your silly posts can be removed. I'm guessing they are being left up just to show how utterly stupid and crazy you all are. Oh, and the sever has not crashed. Hmmmmm...
Stop quivering in fear like frightened children and get your stupid, god-soaked heads out of your asses and join the real world. You never know, you just might like it.
Posted by: a coward | July 24, 2008 5:18 PM
"Nothing must be held sacred." ...excepting, of course, the tenet that nothing must be held sacred.
Posted by: Nick | July 24, 2008 5:18 PM
Jesus never answered me when I asked for his help when a priest, a "close, family friend", fucked me and my sisters when we were kids. In fact, he did the opposite. One of his "men on earth" branded me a hysterical liar and my parents were dumb enough to believe him. The catholic church concealed his well documented paedophilia for years - it all finally came out in a court case 18 months ago - not just us but dozens of kids, and the church knew it but just kept moving him around from parish to parish. He's now doing time, and I haven't spoken to my family for 10 years. Catholicy? You have a lot to answer for.
Posted by: Rodrigo Neely | July 24, 2008 5:19 PM
I think the page from the God Delusion in there was a particularly nice touch, especially since it asserts your opposition to dogma.
I think many people of faith don't realize that we, secular humanists, don't hold stuff sacred.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 5:19 PM
JoJo, I hesitate to say this but...for an alleged former Captain you aren't very bright. But hey, you were Navy. I remember squid officers like you back in the day. I pity those who had the misfortune to be under your command.
How about some light reading? Try, The Christians as the Romans Saw Them by Wilken. If you are going to be an atheist at least try not to disgrace yourself. Cheers.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 24, 2008 5:20 PM
Is there a weird sect of Catholicism which circumcises the heart? - llewelly
I believe so: the Novices of the Sacred Heart. The name refers to the fact that the order consists only of novices, no full brothers, since circumcising the heart is invariably fatal.
I vote that PZ be awarded both Bill Donahue's ears, and his tail.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 5:21 PM
To all of you saying that critiquing religious ideology and assaulting and tormenting other human beings on the basis of their ethnicity are equal, here's a newsflash: you are insane. Ethnicity is not a choice and does not in itself make any truth claims. People are born into their ethnic identity without having a say in the matter. Religion is an individual's choice, and one which can be critiqued by others on the basis of the truth of falsity of that religion's truth claims. There is no reasonable ground for critiquing someone on the basis of their ethnic identity. Therefore, saying that the act of PZ Myers tossing those items into a garbage can is comparable to an ethnic hate crime is absurd. Get a grip. Think a little.
Posted by: Brian D | July 24, 2008 5:22 PM
LawnBoy:Brian D (#762),
Do you have that GreaseMonkey script (or a know a way for us to get it)?
Thanks
The script I use is available at:
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/4107
GreaseMonkey is available through FireFox's add-ons.
Hope that helps.
Posted by: Moses | July 24, 2008 5:22 PM
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
There is something wrong with the above person. Seriously wrong.
Posted by: Rose | July 24, 2008 5:22 PM
Response to #849. Actually, you just said your first prayer and maybe that will be the first step to aid in your salvation. May God have mercy on you, my friend.
Posted by: john tate | July 24, 2008 5:22 PM
I think we should all be grateful to whoever it was who posted the copy of the ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA. Yes, perhaps it is overlong (and one posting would have been enough) but it will surely be a revelation to our erstwhile catholic visitors to see the breathtaking inanity of this document. I'm convinced that the more catholics know about the official doctrines of their faith, the more likely they are to ditch it out of pure embarassment.
Posted by: Pablo | July 24, 2008 5:22 PM
BTW, where are all the schmoes who were claiming he wouldn't have the guts to mess with the Koran?
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
To all of you saying that critiquing religious ideology and assaulting and tormenting other human beings on the basis of their ethnicity are equal, here's a newsflash: you are insane. Ethnicity is not a choice and does not in itself make any truth claims. People are born into their ethnic identity without having a say in the matter. Religion is an individual's choice, and one which can be critiqued by others on the basis of the truth or falsity of that religion's truth claims. There is no reasonable ground for critiquing someone on the basis of their ethnic identity. Therefore, saying that the act of PZ Myers tossing those items into a garbage can is comparable to an ethnic hate crime is absurd. Get a grip. Think a little.
Posted by: Greg Laden | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
I would not be surprised to see the Muslims join the fray.
Yes, I'm sure that this is true. But the biggest concern should be the rage of the Banana People.
Posted by: philiph | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
This Cracker Kerfuffle (a term I heard on the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe) reminded me of an article I heard a while ago. It was about the catholic church in Ireland opposing a stricter drunk driving law because of the chances of priests getting arrested after performing mass.
Apparently, besides the little bit they drink during mass, they also have to finish off any unused, blessed wine. Otherwise, they'd be as 'sinful' as was Webster Cook. Much better that we have drunk priests driving around than desecrate the blood of christ! Here's a link to the article.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1102/1193444384351.html
Posted by: Logicel | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
Perfect post.
Humans don't lack the will to work towards change--in this case, to keep focused on denying respect for ridiculously primitive religious beliefs, while respecting at the same time the right to profess religious beliefs. Instead, we find it difficult to maintain awareness of the situation we want to change. So that will be the purpose of this post for me, when I get lax in keeping up my fever-pitched ridiculing of religious beliefs, I will re-read this post and be aware of why it is important to ridicule ridiculous beliefs at every possible chance.
Nincompoop in London wrote: Those that eat the host are proclaiming "I am part of the Church and I believe in what it teaches and we are all one in Christ.
Let me translate that for us: Those that eat a tasteless, shitty cracker are proclaiming, "I am part of an criminal organization and I support and encourage its criminal intentions and activities and we are all one in dangerous delusion."
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
Interesting....
____________________________
anthropic, in a way you are right. He has done a disservice to your cause. However, your own prejudice betrays you. Those delusional cretins you bemoan are your fellow atheists. They also share your beliefs. They agree with your bigoted attitudes towards Christians. PZ shows us the true face behind the facade. Behind the mask is a sneer. Once you pierce that thin crust of geniality a scalding lava of hatred pours out. He is just out of the closet. You are no different from him, you just hide it better.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
_________________________________________
You are in need of some serious therapy. Your delusion that Atheist all think alike is akin to someone thinking all green eyed people think alike. It's absurd. It's been stated about a hundred time before but let me say it again...ATHEISM IS NOT A SET OF BELIEFS.
The only thing Atheists have in common with other Atheists is that we don't believe in deities. That's it. Some Atheists are passive, some are not. Some Atheist are in favor of gun ownership rights, some are anti-gun, some Atheists are are pro-war, some are anti-war, some Atheists are pro-choice, some are anti-abortion, some Atheists are nice, some are not so nice...the list goes on and on and on.
I am no more inclined to be similar to the other Atheist you meet than I am to be similar to the other green eyed women you meet. Your prejudice is just another example of your religion's failure to teach it's flock to be ethical beings.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
Fr. J says,
The irony.
Posted by: Randall | July 24, 2008 5:24 PM
Used to be Catholic, Jesus tastes terrible, that's why they hand out the wine to was him down with.
Posted by: liz | July 24, 2008 5:24 PM
i am sure xtian loonies will think twice before linking to this post for propaganda...The post is sublime...it would be wonderful to be a student in your class.
Posted by: kestrien | July 24, 2008 5:25 PM
Sandi, pedophiles are PEDOPHILES. Meaning they like children.
They are not gay.
Posted by: Karl Withakay | July 24, 2008 5:25 PM
I feel like there's no point in posting a comment; as post 6xx in the crowd, it won't likely be noticed much but here goes.
Jesus said (supposedly) "take eat, this is my body." and "take drink, this is my blood.", and this has become a major foundation of many/most Christian religions, that it is in some way literally true.
Jesus also said, "I am the vine, and you are the branches." and yet, there seems to be no belief in our transubstantiation into branches. I fail to see how one can pick and choose which (supposed) words of Christ are literally true, and which are interpreted to be metaphor.
Why, even if you are a true believer in the divinity of Christ, can you not believe that Christ was saying, in essence, "take eat, this is a symbol of my body...take drink, this is a symbol of my blood....Do this as a ritual to remind yourselves of me and the things I have done and will do for you."?
It seems like many Christian faiths paint themselves into unnecessary corners, by firmly anchoring their faith on essentially unimportant precepts, such as the virgin birth, the immaculate conception, and transubstantiation. Perhaps it is because flexibility leads to questions, which lead to thoughts, and those just mess up everything where religion is concerned.
Posted by: Coriolis | July 24, 2008 5:26 PM
What type of "scholarly" debate is there to be had Adam, about religion? You believe in fairies, we don't, end of story. Neither side can convince the other, so that's that.
What can be debated is the actual, physical effects of religions on people, throughout history and now. I don't need to go over all the killings done in the name of religion in the past and to this very day. It's telling that apparently there are plenty of people who're willing to threaten the family of an evil cracker abuser and send him death threats. On the other hand, it is preposterous to even think that an atheist professor is going to do anything other then berate a student who decided to burn a science book or some other science object. For atheists, there are no objects that are as important as people, like sacred objects are for the religious. That's kind of the point.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 24, 2008 5:26 PM
I felt a great tremor in the Force...
Oh, never mind. It was just a cosmic typo.
o^aPosted by: cynickal | July 24, 2008 5:26 PM
They are just paper.
You aren't recycling?!
I'm calling on all liberal, hippy, tree-hugging, elitists to call down the wrath of the Libeal League on to you and your ivory tower academia!!!
Uhm... tommorow, I have to get ready for yoga right now.
Oh wait, tomorrow is Swimming with Otters...
Well, someday! Someday you will feel the full wrath of the Liberal Leage and you'll convert your non-recycling ways!
Posted by: Kristen from MA | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Bravo sir!
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Sadly, you have become post #875.Posted by: La_voix_de_la_raison | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Hm.. this all seems rather childish. I am sure the point of this silliness was relayed somewhere in this hectic mess of sensationalism, but I missed it. I am sure it is something in the vein of "they started it".
Posted by: Jeff Knapp | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Well... Looks like st Luke's et. all. have indeed been removed - during the time I wrote my post above.
As I said, they can be removed at any time ... and were!
--JK--
Posted by: dina624 | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
I think all catholics and Christians of good will need to pray for this poor man and take this as the sign of the times that it is that it is NOT finished, but the beginning of persecution of all people of faith, but in particular Catholics.
Hitler may have first come for the communists, and finished with the Jews, but in America, in the west,they are starting with anyone who stands against the emerging Culture of Death, and quit frankly....only the Catholic church truly stands against them.
So it begins.
d~
Posted by: Fergy | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Sanctimonious Sandi wrote:
Oh, the sweet, sweet irony...
Posted by: Stuart Potter | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Well done PZ!
I'm worried this'll get you in a bit of hot water with the anti-cartoon brigade but I'll be more than happy to contribute to a protection fund! ;p
Posted by: Stephen Wells | July 24, 2008 5:28 PM
They still haven't grasped that what happens on Pharyngula is not connected to the University, have they?
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 5:28 PM
Le-yawn. It's your American right to do this and the Catholic's American right to be outraged. Their American right to believe in God, your American right to think it's all menudo. I've fought for your right to do it and I've fought for our right to be angry about it.
Am I Catholic? Yes sir. Am I angry? Yes Sir. Is it going to shake my faith? No sir. All in all, the gesture was as pointless as a man shitting in his own yard - it might be unsightly to the neighbors but the stink is yours alone to behold.
Cheers, PZ
Posted by: Inky | July 24, 2008 5:29 PM
re: pete rooke #310
3) Young ladies like to wear an item of clothing called a mini-skirt these days. The material is often sheer and by its definition does not even come close to covering the knee roll.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniskirt)
Now if someone chooses to wear such an item it does not in the least bit make rape and sexual abuse permissible despite the fact that the odds increase exponentially. In both the eyes of the secular law and of my religion the assailants are still just as culpable.
Young ladies like to wear an item of clothing ca
Okay. First off, your analogies suck ass. That is probably the reason why no one bothered to respond to them. I wouldn't respond to them, either.
BUT:
Besides the absolutely freakish logical tangent that got you from crackers to mini-skirts (seriously, wtf is your problem?), your underlying assumptions and rationales for your statements are so fundamentally asinine that I'm quite literally amazed.
No, the material is not often sheer. Only in your heavily denied fantasies do women wear Saran Wrap mini-skirts. Apparently, voluminous women, because I sure as hell do not have rolls at my knees.
Rape and sexual abuse is not correlated with any type of clothing. Where are the alter boys wearing mini-skirts? Or even those at prison wearing mini-skirts?
Rape and sexual abuse is tied with violence, domination, and the lack of decency in a person.
I couldn't give a shit what you wear, I wouldn't rape you or sexually abuse you.
I have never befriended nor dated a guy that would do these things, either.
Thank you, you fucking asshole, for blaming the victims of these heinous crimes for apparently provoking attacks from dipshits like you. How dare you. And don't say that you put in that disclaimer that the assailants are culpable--reading in between the lines, it is clear where you truly stand. "What a bad thing for the guy to do, but the girl was asking for it." You miserable twat.
Posted by: Trance Gemini | July 24, 2008 5:29 PM
The God Delusion was a really nice touch. I love it. You're absolutely right. Nothing should be held sacred. Words on a piece paper, crackers, and the such are just not that important. Life is important and Freedom is important. Particularly freedom of speech. People have a right to express themselves without being harassed, receiving death threats, being intimidated by threats to their employment, etc. The more people who assert this right the better. Why? Because it will make it that much harder for threats and intimidations from the religious to work. Well done, PZ.
Posted by: arensb | July 24, 2008 5:29 PM
That's nice.
Of course, you have evidence to back this up, right? Some way of telling that this is reality and not lunacy?
Posted by: Sven DIMilo | July 24, 2008 5:30 PM
*sigh*.
As long as Dr. Myers continues to do a good job teaching his courses, is a good academic citizen with regard to committee work and meetings and such, does some research that involves undergraduates in a meaningful way, and refrains from antagonizing, molesting, or harming individual students, the administration of the University of Minnesota will not care what he does in his spare time with his personal blog, Ineffable Baked Goods, squids, or anything else.
And nor should they. What a waste of time.
Posted by: chancelikely | July 24, 2008 5:31 PM
#883 dina624:
The irony of a Christian using "Culture of Death" disparagingly of another group is surely lost on you, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
Posted by: DK | July 24, 2008 5:31 PM
I couldn't be more pleased with how you did it, I wouldn't have thought to throw the God Delusion in there--way to keep EVERYBODY honest.
Posted by: Derek Colanduno | July 24, 2008 5:31 PM
I am beginning to believe that the ONE thing that religious belief might have as a benefit is... it obviously CREATES some form of physics breaking time creation effect. I say this because, *I* have never had enough time to come up with some of the ultra insane stuff that I see these folks post, or bitch about. I mean, REALLY, do any of them have the free time to relax or REALLY enjoy life?
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 5:31 PM
Vishnudammit, PZ, I WAS being productive today. Now I'm sucked into this hilarity.
In other news, according to my spell checker, hilarity is a word. Funny that.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 5:32 PM
War Over Nothing!
The logic of the Catholic League is to make the world a worse place than it is.
How does this work?
Someone says something they don't like, they raise a fuss, it causes some of the crazies in their ranks to send death threats.
Lets see Bill Donohue war causality count so far.
1. College Student receiving death threats.
2. College Student possibly getting expelled from school.
3. Professor Gets Death Threats
4. Threatening Professor's job.
5. Woman gets fired from Flowers.com because of crazy hubby sending death threats.
See what your Church does?? People involved in catholicism should be totally ashamed of themselves for representing such an odious set of ideas and hatred. It's ruining lives even as we speak.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 5:33 PM
Rayven, why are you unconcerned with the fact that not all religions are the same? In fact Catholicism is very different from fundamentalist baptist. BUT you insist on acting as if we were all the same. You bring up incidents from a thousand years ago and act as if it is current. Then you object when we point out atheist misbehavior from yesterday. You claim that is just individuals who happen to be atheists. If I claimed that about us you would object. Atheism is a belief and cannot be proven objectively. It has consequences and we have seen them. They are unpleasant. Are you not disturbed by the bigotry expressed here? I am right. It is a bit forthright for some, but you do think that way about us. When I see atheists objecting to the incredibly foul language, insults, bigotry etc. that I see here then you can lecture me on ethics.
We are going in circles folks. It is been proven scientifically right before my eyes that atheists are indeed bigoted and hateful towards religious people. Just read their posts. Myers has created animosity and pain. Some of you like that and therefore prove my point. He is a sick sad little man and so are his worshipers. Pax
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:33 PM
Have I mentioned that PZ does a great service to the society? Because he does, and ever so eloquently. The secularist movement needs more people like him.
Posted by: bgbaysjr | July 24, 2008 5:34 PM
Perfect! Both the essay, and the performance piece. (Nice touch, Comfort's banana...)
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 5:34 PM
Fixed.
Posted by: anthropic | July 24, 2008 5:34 PM
Fr J @ 823
Um....sorry, but you are wrong. I harbor not hatred. I just think you're a complete moron whose arguments simply don't add up. I'm not hiding anything. I grew up in a strictly Catholic household, went to a Catholic elementary school, Catholic high school, and graduated from a major Catholic university. I soaked in the stuff. Theology was forced down our throats.
I simply do not accept ANYTHING as true without evidence. Period. It's as simple as that. I do not believe writing cobbled together thousands of years ago by a bunch of bronze age desert dwellers and filled with hate and contradiction is the word of some deity.
I cannot prove there isn't a God. All I know is that there is zero evidence of one. I'd rather spend my life exploring nature and the universe in a rational manner than accept stories that have no substance as fact.
Posted by: Maitresse | July 24, 2008 5:34 PM
No, it is my job to decide the meaning in my own life. It is my job to decide what I will do with my life.
Religion makes up answers.
I'm sorry to break this to you, but as far as we know, nothing is eternal. Each of us will eventually die, and even this planet will eventually be gone.
Religion was made up by primitive people who could not otherwise explain things like disease, crop failures, or lightning. It was a way to deal with fear of the unknown. Why do you still need that? You are like a child who cannot give up his security blanket.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 5:35 PM
# 868 philiph, Thank you for that link. I found it quite interesting.
I begs the question, if holy wine truly is turned into Jebus blood, why does it still get them drunk? Kind of debunks their whole claim right there, don't it? Duh.
Perhaps all that blood drinking/getting drunk is why they are able to spout what they do. Does anyone realize they are sitting there listening to the ramblings of a bunch of drunk people?
My youngest son came up with this gem of wisdom when he was a wee boy of six and we were studying religious history....
"I think humans invented religion because they took drugs and saw things they could not explain."
or something to that affect, in small-boy-talk. We were discussing our theories of when and why humans first developed religious beliefs.
Posted by: HermitCrab | July 24, 2008 5:35 PM
Well done, PZ.
Posted by: Ticktockman | July 24, 2008 5:35 PM
Response to Rose at 864
Incorrect. I prayed often as a religiously raised child. Even then I found the whole shebang questionable but decided to do my own research, which led inevitably to atheism. Reason works.
-TTm
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 24, 2008 5:36 PM
hmmm - we're approaching 300 comments/hr here, almost 5 each minute.
Is this a local record?
I haven't seen a Guiness Book in several years - do they have a blogistics category? Could this be a world record?
Prof. Myers may have escaped this escapade virtually unscathed, but the Seed servers are surely suffering in his stead.
Inquiring minds need to know - what sins did said servers (or the anonymous techies who slave to tend them in the dark bowels of Castle Seed) commit to deserve this digital torment?
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:36 PM
Fr. J needs a world history course, taught in a real school.
Posted by: Eris | July 24, 2008 5:36 PM
Bravo Dr. Myers!
If I had a "host" I'd join you in tossing it in the trash. As it is, I will settle for eating a hotdog bun.
Cheers!
Posted by: dubiquiabs | July 24, 2008 5:39 PM
@ #620
Why not?
BTW, well done, PZM
Posted by: Jeff Knapp | July 24, 2008 5:39 PM
Oh, btw PZ. Thank You! You handled this perfectly. The symbolism was wonderful. You are a natural storyteller - as all good teachers ultimately are.
Posted by: Skeeve | July 24, 2008 5:39 PM
@145
"Hell laughed indeed.Did God hurt? I'm sure God wouldn't burn in hell, but you have chosen to be. hahahahahaha you are not posting my comment, huh....where's your son tonite?
Posted by: e.citizen | July 24, 2008 2:32 PM "
Only took 145 comments for a threat against PZs son to appear.
Nutless freak.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 5:40 PM
An atheist just replied to me with, "So boo-fucking-hoo, you genocide-supporting prick."
Wow. You atheists are almost as hateful as Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist "Church" which goes around protesting at funerals.
Thank you for helping to strengthen my faith in Catholicism, as atheism clearly results in nothing but a hate-filled existence. I wouldn't want to live like that.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 5:40 PM
dina624 said: I think all catholics and Christians of good will need to pray for this poor man and take this as the sign of the times that it is that it is NOT finished, but the beginning of persecution of all people of faith, but in particular Catholics.
Let me fix that for you.
I think all catholics and Christians of good will need to pray for this poor man and take this as the sign of the times that it is that it is NOT finished, but the beginning of the RIDICULE of all people of faith, AND ALL RELIGIONS.
Ridicule is what you god nuts can expect for the rest of your pathetic lives. I wouldn't call ridicule "persecution", but you can call it anything you like. Just get used to it. Since 9/11/2001 being religious has become as disgraceful as being a racist. Your idiotic beliefs will never be respected again.
By the way, your "praying" is going to get ridiculed. Praying = talking to yourself = a mental illness.
Posted by: dina624 | July 24, 2008 5:41 PM
I think all catholics and Christians of good will need to pray for this poor man and take this as the sign of the times that it is that it is NOT finished, but the beginning of persecution of all people of faith, but in particular Catholics.
Hitler may have first come for the communists, and finished with the Jews, but in America, in the west,they are starting with anyone who stands against the emerging Culture of Death, and quit frankly....only the Catholic church truly stands against them.
So it begins.
d~
Posted by: Mena | July 24, 2008 5:41 PM
Alas, Donahue is still being an attention whore. Whore somewhere else, ok? Somewhere where people are actually getting hurt or are going hungry perhaps?
Posted by: Barron | July 24, 2008 5:41 PM
I just can't get over how the damage to the books really bugs me. Especially a hardcover book (religious, science, politics, fiction whatever). I am shamed by my lack of irreverence.
Won't someone think of the book binders!
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 5:42 PM
other Nicole: "All in all, the gesture was as pointless as a man shitting in his own yard - it might be unsightly to the neighbors but the stink is yours alone to behold."
You've got the part about rights down, but I don't agree with your quote above. It DOES make a difference to people who are on the fence with losing their faith. It does make them sit up and say, "wait, I believed what? Hmm, maybe that is a bit silly." Having been in that situation myself once, such an example would have been helpful in looking at things rationally, rather than being morally torn between tradition and reason.
BTW, if you are Catholic, and I am atheist, does that make me Evil Nicole? And if so, do I have to grow a goatee?
Posted by: X | July 24, 2008 5:42 PM
Haw Haw! - Jack T. Chick
Posted by: JoJo | July 24, 2008 5:42 PM
I guess that makes us even, because for an alleged priest and supposed college graduate you're very stupid yourself. Plus you're a patronizing, pompous prig.
Thanks for proving you're a patronizing, pompous prig.Why don't you do some reading yourself. Geoffrey Parker. The Thirty Years' War. London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1984. You might learn about how in the 17th Century your pet religion helped kill about 1/3 of the population of what's now Germany and the Czech Republic.
Whereas you disgrace yourself continually by being a patronizing, pompous prig.Posted by: Bostonian | July 24, 2008 5:42 PM
Well-written and thorough. This blog post should be required reading.
You might want to consider collecting some of these moments in book form, PZ. I hear there's something of a market these days for so-called "New Athiest" literature and a collection of some of your better rants (especially this one) would be excellent in dead-tree form.
I think I have to read this again ...
Posted by: mothwentbad | July 24, 2008 5:42 PM
Oh, man. Citing wikipedia? That's adding insult to injury.
I wonder if the Conservapedia article starts with the 21st century? Or maybe it goes back to the 13th century, but adds on, "Well yeah, but Stalin was the worst ever"?
Posted by: Ambrose | July 24, 2008 5:43 PM
I just spent a day escorting a priest who grew up in the former Soviet Union and now is back there serving the post-Soviet Catholics. He personally knew martyrs for the faith at the hands of the Soviet atheists, people who died in the gulags of the Soviet Union. Your intolerance seems to have much in common with that state atheism. Religion is to be exterminated, beginning with its ideas and symbols.
It is well and good to condemn theocratic societies of the past, no one except the Moslem extremists believe in them today anyway, but I would not want to live in an atheocratic society with men such as yourself in charge. Trampling the host as a mark of contempt is a very short distance from destroying houses of worship (as the Nazis and Communists did, and the Chinese communists still do) and ultimately killing believers, as still occurs in China, Sudan and many other places. If we are only the product of evolution, why not? Survival of the fittest would permit the fit to destroy the weak. Why not impose your lack of belief on others? You have already shown yourself capable of it in principle, by the thorough and absolute contempt you have shown for the opinions and symbols of others.
Enjoy your fifteen minites of fame, professor. When it is over you will return to being nothing, and I presume you take that as a dictum. "Sit transit gloria mundi."
Posted by: Thomas J. Theobald | July 24, 2008 5:43 PM
AHHHHH!!!! My hands!!!! AHHH! You stabbed a rusty nail through my...
Oh wait, never mind, it's a cracker, not my hand. Sorry, false alarm, my bad ).
T
Posted by: Dave UH | July 24, 2008 5:43 PM
I made a short video of your desecration "Trash can" picture PZ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdxmjl-EjGU
Posted by: Tenure | July 24, 2008 5:43 PM
I'm catholic. I don't have the time to read your long dissertation, but my thought is that I bet you wouldn't have had the cajones to do what you did or have done or are going to do, if you didn't have tenure.
Posted by: TrueSceptic | July 24, 2008 5:44 PM
As always, Pharyngula is a great read.
For anyone interested in more discussion on the absurdities of religion, I'd like to plug http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php
In particular, read the brilliant and amusing series of posts by kcrady at http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=23.0
Posted by: Randy Stimpson aka Intelligent Designer | July 24, 2008 5:44 PM
PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???
Posted by: Scott P. | July 24, 2008 5:44 PM
"Nobody has to believe it is the body of Christ for the act of consecration is a public act perfomed by a Catholic priest."
It isn't public in the Orthodox church. Or doesn't that count?
Posted by: dina624 | July 24, 2008 5:44 PM
The great desecration?
He calls what he has done 'the great desecration'.
He took a host from a catholic Mass and desecrated it.
>Christ have mercy
But he is a creature of pride. He doesn't know the humble God of the universe who he seeks to desecrate.
This God who would rush to his side in a New York minute if he would but ask.
Certainly this is outrageous...but as far as desecrations committed by this man, I would hardly call it the greatest. His life is filled with desecrations, small and great...this is simply the most public one.
No one becomes as Godless, and amoral as this human being with out first completely and ruthlessly desecrating his own soul beyond recognition of what it first was, the image of God...beautiful and pure.
Now, he stand, with a corpse for a soul...and dares to call what he did to a Holy God who in spite of what HE did is still Holy and incorrupt...and filled with loving longing for this man soul...
No...the great desecration is that this man is doing all he can to throw himself into hell, and that breaks the heart of God.
You poor poor man.
d~
Posted by: Logicel | July 24, 2008 5:45 PM
Mr. J (Mr because I have a father already) is trying real hard to persuade himself that PZ and commenters here hate people who happen to be Catholics, by equating ridicule with hatred. The pathetic jerk baits and switchs so egregiously that it must be a miracle that the fool hasn't collapsed in a tizzy of dizziness yet.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 5:46 PM
If I may misquote 'The West Wing': "if they're spamming you with papal encyclicals you know you must be doing something right". May FSM bless you PZ, a masterly monograph.
Posted by: Bill | July 24, 2008 5:46 PM
I'll be drinking a beer in honor of your brilliant post tonight, PZ. But, then again, I was going to be drinking a beer tonight anyway.
Posted by: Jenny Z | July 24, 2008 5:46 PM
God have mercy on you, and us all.
If you're so uncaring, why do this? Your lack of respect for other people who do no harm to you us saddening. I'm sorry you have to be so angry.
Posted by: Docwazoo | July 24, 2008 5:46 PM
Thanks for the good work PZ. Now I only wish you would have thrown something Jewish out with the trash as well.
Posted by: Skippy the Skeptic | July 24, 2008 5:47 PM
Nicely done, PZ.
Posted by: Jody | July 24, 2008 5:47 PM
I've been avoiding commenting in these threads because I know what a headache they've been causing you, PZ.
I doubt you'll even be reading this, as it is just one of what will be thousands of posts, I'm sure.
But I do have to say: well written, and well done.
Posted by: SnarkFish | July 24, 2008 5:47 PM
would Jesus forgive PZ Myers?
quit being hypocritical to your faith theists
and to PZ, i applaud you - i would have put a tiny crown of thorns on it. is that evil?
Posted by: jamie | July 24, 2008 5:47 PM
man all this stuff about catholics prosecuting jews is so 'constantines sword' (great book and movie; check it out guys).
somewhere meatloaf is crying while singing 'is nothing sacred anymore'.
Posted by: Calladus | July 24, 2008 5:48 PM
Wow. My irony meter exploded at this point.
I'll tell you what, ya'll come let me know when the Catholics stop going coo-coo for crackers in the comments. Until then, I'll just stick to reading PZ's posts - where the level of insanity tends toward zero.
You know, I used to think that religion made people hateful, inflexible, and crazy. And now... not much different.
Posted by: MicroZealous | July 24, 2008 5:48 PM
re #930. Take heart from this verse:
He spoke unto his believers, unto his believers he spake thusly: Never shalt I give thee up, Never shalt thee be let down. Neither wilt I run around and desert thee. Never shalt I make thee cry, nor unto thee say goodbye, never shalt I tell thee a lie and hurt thee. (Rich. 7:14)
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:48 PM
And thank you for helping to strengthen my confidence in atheism, as christianity clearly results in nothing but a hate-filled, irrational, and time-squandering existence. I wouldn't want others to live like that.
Posted by: NovemberRomeo | July 24, 2008 5:49 PM
Is that it? No super plan to construct a Darth Star and destroy planets? Awww...
Very well written and point well made! As usual.
Posted by: Baba | July 24, 2008 5:49 PM
Wow, all you atheists are so simple-mindedly easy to entertain. I'm laughing at your adolescent celebrations because the irony of PZ's sermon is lost on you......
Your Lord and Master even admits to being incapable of coming up with an original desecration idea - he lifted the idea to "stab the host" from an old woodcut. What a revolutionary!!!!!!!
From the few photos I've seen of the Prophet PZ I'm surprised there weren't the remains of a Big Mac, biggie fries and extra large diet coke in the trash can. Wait, maybe that's why he looks the way he does in his photos.
Posted by: Voltaire | July 24, 2008 5:49 PM
PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???
=======
Yes! You get it!
Except, something tells me you don't.
Posted by: Neural T | July 24, 2008 5:49 PM
Best. Pharyngula. Post. Ever.
I'm glad you spent time to put the whole affair into context with the historical rantings and lunacy surrounding the Host.
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 5:50 PM
I forsee a future in which Host Tragedies are once again produced. But this time, they'll be high budget affairs with Mel Gibson directing them.
I wonder who will be cast as PZ?
Posted by: Slaughter | July 24, 2008 5:51 PM
Randy Stimpson said: PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???
That above all! If you can scientifically demonstrate the weaknesses in evolution, by all means do so. PZ has shown the weakness in the wafe-as-body-of-Christ argument.
And by the way, PZ, Styrofoam actually tastes better than the wafers. Then again, maybe Lutheran wafers don't taste as good as Roman Catholic ones. I think I'd desecrate one with some peanut butter and jelly.
Posted by: Jon | July 24, 2008 5:51 PM
...And yet somehow ranting about a wafer is more important, more 'Christian', than feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and tending to the needy?
The reaction herein to PZ's act is justification of the act itself. Examine your own actions first. Remove the plank from your own eyes before you attend to the speck of dust you see here.
Hypocrites.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 5:51 PM
"PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???"
That's right. Demand evidence. Oh wait, that's what science already DOES!
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 5:52 PM
John Lewandowski (#913), you make a good point about bad language some people use (including myself), but don't forget that your religion has a long bloody history that includes genocide (see PZ's comments at the top of this thread). There's a big difference between an atheist calling a stupid asshole Catholic a "stupid asshole", and murdering people because they're weren't Catholics or because they showed disrespect for a cracker.
In my opinion, if Catholics had any moral values at all, they would throw out their religion because it has a history of atrocities. You should throw out your religion for the same reason Muslims should throw out their religion. What decent person would want to be associated with so much terrorism, including both Catholic and Muslim terrorism.
Posted by: JohnW | July 24, 2008 5:53 PM
Randy @928:
PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???
Yes, of course. Evolution is not sacred. It's merely the best explanation we have for the diversity of life on Earth. Nothing else comes close to matching its explanatory and predictive power.
How do we know? By questioning it.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 5:53 PM
Fixed.
Posted by: Richard Dawkins | July 24, 2008 5:53 PM
Congratulations, PZ, on an eloquent gesture. And thank you for including the pages from The God Delusion. It's only a book.
If I had any doubts about the rightness of what you did, they were dispelled by reading the fatuous, pathetic, ignominious, abjectly stupid protests of Catholics writing in protest. Either they really believe the wafer is Jesus, in which case they are idiots. Or they don't, in which case they are hypocritical hysterics. Either way, they deserve to be insulted. Congratulations on doing so.
Bravo PZ.
Richard
Posted by: Crackerophile | July 24, 2008 5:54 PM
I'm having sex with a cracker RIGHT NOW...
...
...
...
*whew*
Finished
Posted by: Roger | July 24, 2008 5:54 PM
PZ. Just wanted to say that since "crackergate" began, I have been a lurker, just reading and generally enjoying the comments (yes, I have read EVERY SINGLE COMMENT !!). As an Atheist, I was all for your actions, but was a little concerned that you might actually do something that would be denegrating to the "atheist movement" (for want of a better phrase).
I apologize, totally, sincerely and unreservedly. I shouldn't have underestimated your intelligence - what you have done his is absolutely and totally perfect, and illustrates your point with a clarity that, frankly, deserves a far greater audience than even this amazingly popular blog will get. Is there enough comments and emails for "Crackergate - the book" ?
As commenter number 43 said - this is the first time I've applauded a blog entry. Well done, sir. You have given all sane people something to be rejoice in.
Rog
Posted by: Dan Dangerously | July 24, 2008 5:54 PM
/standing ovation
Posted by: Meredith | July 24, 2008 5:54 PM
This is an incredible post you have made here. Thank you.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 5:55 PM
This is not even CLOSE to over. This has barely started. I hope you are prepared for the storm that this will cause.
Posted by: Arno | July 24, 2008 5:55 PM
Absolutely brilliant speech, PZ.
And you were right: the cracker got exactly what it deserved - a crack, a fizzle and a puff of logic, not unlike God in the Babelfish argument.
The speech alone is worth more than the entire cracker.
Well done :)
Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 24, 2008 5:55 PM
Well, PZ, I have to give you a load of credit for having some awful big cojones.
Personally, I'm just going to eat some popcorn and watch the drama unfold.
Posted by: sandi | July 24, 2008 5:56 PM
Kudos to Bill Donahue--go get him, Tiger! Donahue's analogies were great. Would a University stand for it if one of its professors donned a white hood, burned a cross on his front lawn, said "I hate Niggers", and posted that film on the Internet? No. The University would fire him. Would a University stand for it if one of its professors posted a picture of himself wearing a swastika t-shirt with "Jews Suck" emblazoned thereon, ripping a Torah, and placing it in the trash bin with a side of ham? No. The University would fire him. It's time to treat Catholics with the same respect. Fire the bum!!! Myers didn't keep his hatred and bigotry to himself--he posted it on the Internet for all the world to see. That made it the University's business; that made it fair game in terms of firing him. Who wants such an immature bigot teaching our students? I'd be willing to guess that he subtly or not-so-subtly carries over his prejudices into the classroom. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he mocks Catholics and other Christians in his classroom. (Heck, I heard at least 3 public school teachers insult Catholics during classtime when I was a kid.) Or perhaps he gives his Catholic students lower grades when they stand up for their religion? We just don't know. The bottom line is, a puerile, adolescent, hate-filled bigot should not hold a position as a professor at any reputable University. I call on the students to boycott his classes, the teachers to yell for his resignation, and the University to fire him. And to all his dumb-ass groupies on this website, you should recognize that the Catholic Church is the single largest charitable provider in the WORLD. Don't discount the amazing love and kindness the Church shows the world each day simply because a handful of homosexual priests broke their vows. The VAST majority of priests have remained faithful to their vows and have sacrificed their lives to help other people. I'm wasting my breath, though. Closed-minded bigots will never change.
Posted by: Tom Morris | July 24, 2008 5:56 PM
I'll echo Professor Dawkins in giving a "Huzzah!" for blasphemy and desecration.
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 5:58 PM
Myers: Thanks for giving us your take on the Year 1215. Did you know we're now in the year 2008? Maybe you didn't get the memo. If I follow your "logic" correctly, the Catholic Church did a few things you didn't like in the year 1215, so you feel justified today in desecrating Catholic property and intentionally baiting Catholics? Talk about holding a grudge. I think society in general was a little rough in the middle ages--not just the Catholic Church. I think people have gotten much more civilized over the centuries. Most of us have, anyway. You're obviously still a brutish, uncivilized, dumb ass. If we follow your analogy, any non-Christians (including atheists) who committed brutal acts in the year 1215 or otherwise should be punished today--in 2008. Wow, you just set yourself up!
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 6:00 PM
Did you not know that professors deem themselves God, but hey I would like to see and I mean any walk on water. Here is a quote from the Bible 'Jesus Christs own words unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life in you, and he that eats my flesh and drinks my blood hath life everlasting and I will raise them up on the last day. The masses left all except the Apostles and when he said won't you leave too? They answered to who shall we go Lord you have the words of eternal life. Now Daniel when the daily sacrifice which is offered up throughout the world from the coming up to the setting of the sun is cancelled, Pray tell who is offering up the Daily sacrifice from the coming up to the setting of the sun? The Catholic Church.
Posted by: Waltherian Succession | July 24, 2008 6:00 PM
Nice work on the not reading things, Sandi at #964. Check out #836, dimbulb.
Posted by: Baba | July 24, 2008 6:01 PM
And a sadly over-rated attempt at bad philosophy.
Posted by: Thethyme | July 24, 2008 6:01 PM
Hahaha Donahue God's needs science to protect him he can be taken down by tetanus
Posted by: Zaphod | July 24, 2008 6:01 PM
sandi, sandi, sandi, you ignorant, hyperventilating sl**, there is no hatred involved because nobody outside your fellow cultists believes there's anything magical about some stupid effing cracker.
Get over it.
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 6:01 PM
I'm trying to figure out whether it's adorable or horrifying that you think there was such a thing as non-Catholic segment of society in the European Dark Ages.Posted by: chancelikely | July 24, 2008 6:02 PM
Baba 967: You're right, it is "a sadly over-rated attempt at bad philosophy". It's pretty good as good philosophy, though.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 6:02 PM
The fake Fr J wrote.....
__________________________________________
Rayven, why are you unconcerned with the fact that not all religions are the same? In fact Catholicism is very different from fundamentalist baptist. BUT you insist on acting as if we were all the same. You bring up incidents from a thousand years ago and act as if it is current. Then you object when we point out atheist misbehavior from yesterday. You claim that is just individuals who happen to be atheists. If I claimed that about us you would object. Atheism is a belief and cannot be proven objectively. It has consequences and we have seen them. They are unpleasant. Are you not disturbed by the bigotry expressed here? I am right. It is a bit forthright for some, but you do think that way about us. When I see atheists objecting to the incredibly foul language, insults, bigotry etc. that I see here then you can lecture me on ethics.
We are going in circles folks. It is been proven scientifically right before my eyes that atheists are indeed bigoted and hateful towards religious people. Just read their posts. Myers has created animosity and pain. Some of you like that and therefore prove my point. He is a sick sad little man and so are his worshipers. Pax
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 5:33 PM
__________________________________________
First of all, please quote where I said those things. I didn't actually say them? Hmmmmmmm
So, even after I made a clear point you still think all Atheists think with one mind? Guess what? We don't. My views to not represent anyone other than ME ME ME ME. Likewise, someone else's views do not represent me, they represent THEM THEM THEM THEM. I know it's terribly hard for you to grasp, since you've been brainwashed to think that all catholics think with one brain, but Atheist do not all think alike. Some of us even hate each other.
You haven't a clue what my feelings are about the various religions beyond what tiny bit I have posted in these threads. I do not feel all religious people are dangerous or abusive, just some of them. I do not feel all religions are created equal, but I do lump Abrahamic religions together because they came form the same place. Then ,I segregate them into the splinters they became. To be honest, it is my opinion that catholicism is one of the most vile of the offspring, but that is just my opinion and I won't debate the issue. You are free to disagree.
To stomp on another absurdity, there was no "Atheist misbehavior" in recent times, as has also been pointed out a hundred times over. There may have been a few evil people who claimed to be Atheists who did awful things down through history, but it wasn't sanctioned by the great tribe of Atheism...because there's not one! What religious organizations have done though,is to sanction evil acts and as a religious body help to perpetrate atrocities. The Catholic church has corenered the market on sanctioning atrocities and helping to carry out genocide. It was not one Catholic who did an evil thing, or one despot who happened to be catholic...it was a religious organization made of of millions of people who, as a unified force, sanctioned and carried out evil. You choose to be part of this organization and are responsible for what it has done/will do. I am not part of any Church of Atheism and therefor what some other Atheist does is not a reflection upon me. We are individuals who don't believe in deities, that's it.
So please stop trying to correlate Atheism with what some evil despot did...Atheism had nothing to do with it and I have no connection what-so-ever to some evil nutjob from the past who happened to have been an Atheist. No more than I have a connection to some evil (or good) person from the past who happened to have green eyes.
Try again to grasp that. C'mon, you can do it.
Posted by: Rick | July 24, 2008 6:02 PM
Throw the rest of the crackers into a duck pond. St. Francis may very likely approve, and betide blessings upon your land.
Posted by: Jon | July 24, 2008 6:03 PM
Oh, and does anyone else find it ironic that the Atheists here actually care what fate the cracker met?
Given that PZ's entire point was that "it's just a cracker, people!!", the disposal of this cracker shouldn't be celebrated any more than the disposal of any other food remains.
If you celebrate this as a triumph, you grant the object power. You acknowledge that it has special status, and that the point of this is to rile the religous, rather than deny them any special status. You become as much of a hypocrite as the Catholics who fail to turn the other cheek.
By all means commend the original (rather excellent) post. Don't however commend the act which is ultimately meaningless and utterly without consequence.
Posted by: Johnny Coelacanth | July 24, 2008 6:03 PM
"Would I post here if I cared what atheists thought of me?"
Then what are you doing here? You desperately care what atheists think of you, or you wouldn't expend so much effort in trying to change the way they think. Your faith is as weak as your arguments.
Posted by: tsg | July 24, 2008 6:03 PM
Am I the only one who sees the irony in a group of people who worship a man who was condemned to death for blasphemy condemning another man for the same thing?
And lest some confuse this statement as comparing PZ Myers to Jesus Christ, I'm not. I'm comparing Catholics to the Roman Empire.
Posted by: Greg Esres | July 24, 2008 6:03 PM
Yes, but the Catholic Church was established by God and therefore should be held to higher standards than the prevailing society. In fact, we should expect perfection. On the other hand, if the Catholic Church was a man-made creation, then it's reasonable to expect that it reflects the society at large.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 6:05 PM
A woodcut from Brussels.
"In 1370 in Brussels, the charge of host desecration, long celebrated in a special fest and depicted in artistic relics in the Church of St. Gudule, led to the extermination of the Jews of the city."
For the sake of a cracker, you Catholics massacred real live people.
Posted by: Draconiz | July 24, 2008 6:05 PM
Dustin,
There are Non-Catholics segments in the middle ages (Cathar and Pagans spring to mind). Problem is they all got slaughtered by the cracker worshipers.
Nuff said
Posted by: JRQ | July 24, 2008 6:05 PM
Words can hardly express how ridiculous the whole situation is.
Why on earth am I supposed to care that catholics are offended by, of all things, host desecration, something that materially affects nobody, while the Catholic Church persists in its opposition to birth control, divorce, abortion, stem cell research, all of which are irrational, deeply immoral, and DO materially affect me?
Keep it up Catholics. You've lost the moral high ground so thoroughly, pretty much any complaint you make lapses immediately into self-parody. You all can earn our respect by cleaning up your act and joining us here in the real world.
Posted by: N.K. | July 24, 2008 6:06 PM
AHAHAHA.
THE FIRST COMMENT IS A, "MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL."
Also, #964 needs to read more than the first few paragraphs. And should also probably note the death threats PZ has been receiving from COWARDLY BIGOTED CATHOLICS in 2008.
I doubt observation and rational has ever been one of Sandi's strengths.
Posted by: La_voix_de_la_raison | July 24, 2008 6:06 PM
@ # 930 dina624,
I believe you should take the title, "the great desecration" to be sarcastic
Posted by: Skippy the Skeptic | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
Nicely done, PZ.
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
#972 Some of us even hate each other.
You seem to pretty much have the hate thing down
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
Did you also know that empty cans make the loudest noise? Clang Clang
Posted by: Gargilius | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
> virtually inedible crackers in my possession.
Have you tried maple sirup? I find that a lot of things that would be otherwise virtually inedible starts tasting reasonably good with maple sirup (that or spicy sauce depending on taste).
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
"Nobody has to believe it is the body of Christ for the act of consecration is a public act perfomed by a Catholic priest."
It isn't public in the Orthodox church. Or doesn't that count?
++++++++++++
Stupid question.
Here's a better one. How did he get that nail through the "cracker' without it fragmenting? The communion hots are very brittle as anyone familiar with them knows.
Looks like a big fake to me.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 6:08 PM
Good job, PZ! I wondered if it would be something as simple as throwing a stale cracker into the trash where it belongs.
I'm guessing some Catholic is going to claim a Eucharistic Miracle. They will rescue it from the trash and it will have been bleeding!!!! Then the blood will be analyzed but, alas, it will have been cow blood from the steak PZ had last night. Catholics will ignore that and claim it was type AB blood. Exactly the type of blood found on the shroud of Turin!!!
Yes, I have been following these threads too closely.
And, Pete Rooke, you are still a very disturbed person. Maybe you've been watching too many Hannibal Lecter movies?
Posted by: SomeGuyFromScotland | July 24, 2008 6:09 PM
You're an inspiration, PZ Myers.
Thank you.
Posted by: DaveR | July 24, 2008 6:09 PM
Bravo sir, bravo!
Posted by: Clayton | July 24, 2008 6:09 PM
Nothing must be held sacred.
So why is your opinion an exception to the rule that nothing is sacred?
That is some crazy, dogmatic hypocrisy you have going there...
Posted by: RipperStinger | July 24, 2008 6:10 PM
Wonder who will get post #1000
Thanks again for the Greasemonkey script!
Posted by: Johnny Coelacanth | July 24, 2008 6:10 PM
"How did he get that nail through the "cracker' without it fragmenting? The communion hots are very brittle"
I'm thinking one drop of water right in the center of Jesus, er the wafer would make it more accommodating of the nail.
Posted by: spurge | July 24, 2008 6:10 PM
TG
The only thing worse than being a troll is being a boring one.
Posted by: Tom Morris | July 24, 2008 6:11 PM
This is what I find amazing: a majority of the justices on the United States Supreme Court subscribe to this crackers theory.
Posted by: Rieux | July 24, 2008 6:11 PM
Just want to add my voice to the maddening throng--nice job, P.Z., even though I too am one of the group here who are irrationally disturbed by the image of pages torn out of books.
I'll get over it.
Posted by: Warren | July 24, 2008 6:11 PM
@ Clayton,
When did he say his opinion was to be held sacred? Dumbass.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:11 PM
BobC, when are you going to throw away your atheism because of what Mao did? Or do you deny that Mao was an atheist, just like the absurd claims that Hitler was a Catholic? Everyone remembers that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews, but everyone seems to forget about his 3 million Polish Catholic victims. Whoops?
In reality, Hitler was "raised Catholic" but rejected the vast majority of the teachings of the faith as he got older. Huh, just like many atheists! Fancy that.
By the way, here's an FYI for those who blame AIDS on the Catholic Church - if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy.
Posted by: NoChildsBehindLeft | July 24, 2008 6:12 PM
W00T 3 CHEERS FOR P.Z!
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 6:12 PM
Sandi,
You must have a very short attention span. The medieval mentality still exists. So far over this incident alone:
1. A college student getting death threats and possibility of expuslion from school.
2. A professor getting death threats and may get fired from his job. 3. And one of your own catholics got his wife fired from 1800flowers.com
It's over the same things as it was back in the middle ages. You may have not done anything wrong, but your fellow catholics have been doing it in the name of your faith.
Its obvious that it's not burning heretics at the stake or having people drawn and quartered for blasphemy, but those were times when catholicism at it's peak in power over governments and people. Do you want that back today?
Bill Donahue's job description parallels to a moder day grand inquisitor. If you don't believe me, then you haven't even entertained the idea in your head.
Posted by: Ice Farmer | July 24, 2008 6:12 PM
GREAT POST, PZ!
It has no comedic value what-so-ever. Completely spot on and well written. In a perfect world this would be a great thought and debate generator. I unfortunately know (not on faith) that this won't be the case. I hope you can increase your server capacity geometrically, you're gonna need it!
I'd like to thank all the religionists for coming out in true, hypocritical style (as always). Looking forward to reading more wackaloonery (sort of). Let's hope they remember, according to their books, that GOD is to be the judge.
I will continue to be a loyal reader, evolutionist, free thinker and good writing/blog supporter (especially for Pharyngula).
PZ, you have the support of many. The hate that this may bring you from others will only grow your voice louder and grant you the ability to reach more people.
Best wishes and total support,
Rob from Calgary, Alberta, Canada
P.S. This was a missed opportunity for a positive environmental impact. You should have recycled everything or at least recycled the nail and added the paper, coffee, banana, etc. to your back yard composter. If you don't have one, get one. Great for the garden and environment.
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 6:12 PM
Well PZ, from the looks of this crowd and your actions, your creating a great world for your son to live in- you should be a proud father- quite the role model you are- bravo
Posted by: Andrew | July 24, 2008 6:12 PM
Very easy to use profanity to mock what you do not understand and not consider any other perspective. It just doesn't show you to be a person of good will. Our creator wishes all humanity to be people of good will.
As for your comment "If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I'd drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue. ", you should consider another perspective:
http://www.rev-know-it-all.com/2008/2008---01-13.html
Posted by: Pekka Pekuri | July 24, 2008 6:13 PM
1000GET
Posted by: Matlatzinca | July 24, 2008 6:13 PM
Great picture. Can we have a high-res image if we want to make it our desktop?
Now if I only hold out for a few minutes, I might be post #1000...
Posted by: E.V. | July 24, 2008 6:14 PM
Boy is my arm tired from playing WHACK-A-TROLL and GOD-BOP-IT.
Posted by: lolgaggins | July 24, 2008 6:14 PM
How about a Jesus joke to lighten things up?
Q: What's the difference between Jesus and a painting?
A: It only takes one nail to hang a painting.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 6:14 PM
"Here's a better one. How did he get that nail through the "cracker' without it fragmenting? The communion hots are very brittle as anyone familiar with them knows."
From what I remember (long time ago), they're actually somewhat pliable. When I put one in my mouth and bit down with my molars*, it wouldn't shear in two, at least not without being forced by the tongue. I think if you had a decently sharp nail and used a twisting motion, you could get a hole in there. But I suppose YWMV.
I also wish PZ had put the wafer against the coffee grounds so that it would stand out more. I had to look a couple times before I found it.
* I was never taught not to chew it as some other commenters here have attested, if I had been, I think I may have found atheism even sooner.
Posted by: Dutch Vigilante | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
I just like to say here that in the thread "Fresh thread" I hoped he desecrated the god delusion...
Quite predictable, in the end. Too bad it was though, I could use James Randi's 1.000.000 dollars.
Posted by: Clayton | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
Warren,
He said "must". That word is the imperative. The question is: an imperative for who? and why?
How can you have an imperative when you deny a source for imperatives?
Nothing must be held sacred is a creed. It's a religious statement. But he can't have it both ways... Religious screeds against religion are inherently hypocritical...
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
1215 was the year that set up all the massacres and expulsions in the centuries that followed.
And despite the fact that "people have gotten much more civilized over the centuries", Catholics are STILL ACTING CRAZY OVER A CRACKER. YOU are doing it RIGHT NOW.
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
Randy Stimpson, "Even evolution ???"
Of course, and if you are honest, the exceptional and massive level of evidence will persuade you that evolution did, is, and will continue to occur.
-----
In after Dawkins and 1000 get
Posted by: Coffeesh0p | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
Thy will be done!
1Nil.
Posted by: Chemist | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
Have perused 300+ comments re: this thread and have not seen this suggestion (forgive if it has already been made):
Slugs just LOVE banana peels and coffee grounds in any good organic garden. Prefer these foodstuffs over your ripening tomatoes on the vines above. Not knowing their liking for "crackers", let's do an experiment in the best tradition of Chas. Darwin:
go out tonight and collect several slugs (the slimey kind, not the lead kind) and put em in with the accumulated items in the trash can. See what is left after, say, 24 hours or so. Do they prefer godly flesh, or not? Do they get transfigured? Resurrected?
Who knows, there might be a phD project in here someplace.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 6:16 PM
"By the way, here's an FYI for those who blame AIDS on the Catholic Church - if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy."
Seriously?!?!? I call Poe. I can't tell if it's real...
My brain asploded. I'm getting off this thread and doing some real science. Seriously.
Posted by: Tom L | July 24, 2008 6:16 PM
In other words, PZ's little gesture is utterly empty, meaningless, and ineffectual, right? No harm done to God and/or Jesus, correct? We all agree on this, yes?
So what the hell are all of you Catholics so up in arms over, then?
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 6:16 PM
JRQ 980 actually the Catholic opposition to what you mention in your post is the moral highground.
"opposition to birth control, divorce, abortion, stem cell research, all of which are irrational, deeply immoral, and DO materially affect me?"
Posted by: Justin | July 24, 2008 6:16 PM
I cannot believe you would have the sinful unholiness to desecrate a copy of the majestic writings of Professor Richard Dawkins, may Google watch over him and keep him informed forever.
We're gonna come after you, boy. You don't mess with atheists.
We're gonna swing around there to your house, phoning first to see if you're home or entertaining company. We're gonna walk right up to your door and ring your doorbell. Twice. Maybe three times, if we think that maybe you were out back and didn't hear it the first couple of times. A knocking might be deemed appropriate.
When you answer that door, if you dare, we're going to direct strongly toned words at you. We're going to be stern. We're going to invite you to a debate on the issue.
That's right.
A debate.
We'll go there.
And then afterward if you are not very convincing we will sit around having ice cream and coffee discussing how silly you are and you will not be invited!!!
So watch it, buddy. Watch it.
Posted by: E.V. | July 24, 2008 6:16 PM
Remember: Love the theist, hate the theism!
Posted by: NPD | July 24, 2008 6:17 PM
Well done, PZ! (Just adding my 2 cents to the chorus of cheers)
Hitler may have first come for the communists, and finished with the Jews, but in America, in the west,they are starting with anyone who stands against the emerging Culture of Death, and quit frankly....only the Catholic church truly stands against them.
"First they came for the crackers, and I said nothing since I was not a cracker..." How ironic, since the Catholic Church said nothing against Hitler when he came for the Jews, Communists, trade unionists, gays...
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 6:17 PM
Hey PZ- this is how it works- you push the rock over the ledge and let everyone else deal with the damage. You just sit back and read huh? COWARD-
Posted by: mwb | July 24, 2008 6:17 PM
I think one of the interesting consequences of the hierarchical attribution of culpability for wrongdoing is that it engenders such pointless disputes over the religiosity of a handful of people in the 20th century.
Whether Hitler was a follower of a zombie, Thor, or rather disavowed the supernatural altogether does little to place responsibility for genocide on materialism. Even if the whole exercise wasn't motivated by some weak appeal to the consequence of belief, Hitler himself didn't commit the Holocaust: it was an effort by innumerable inhabitants from multiple nations with different backgrounds, the majority of which were superstitious people.
I suppose it is inconvenient for the mages among us that the very defects of human cognition that permit them to make appeals to popularity when justifying their cantrips, are the same defects that warrant no surprise when it is realized that activities that require a large number of participants are made up of the same sort.
Of course the point of the exercise itself is misguided, because such high-level activities as the eradication of subpopulations of humanity do not follow from materialism, and even if they did, it would not change nature. As if we could stare down an abyss if we wanted to!
The whole enterprise serves to obfuscate societal defects with some inane cosmic scoreboard. As if we shouldn't expect ever-higher death tolls in the presence of orders of magnitude differences in populations when the same barbaric tribalism plays itself out in subsequent generation that have populations orders of magnitude larger--populations that are dependent upon elaborate technologies to even maintain. If some bumbling materialists or bumbling supernaturalists disrupt the precarious infrastructure that enables billions of humans to coexist on this planet with a grand plan for homogeneity, you can expect your scorecard to jump drastically in one direction or other, and with the number of you with imaginary friends outnumbering those without, I would not want to be playing at such games.
However it is the readiness to bestow great powers and authority on the mythical hero and villain that finds us constantly arguing over minutiae to divine the true thoughts of one or two people, who ultimately serve as little more than icons. You shouldn't care if Hitler talked to voices in his head, but rather why we humans are such conformist dipshits eager to be ruled over by kings; imaginary or otherwise.
Posted by: Tatarize | July 24, 2008 6:17 PM
Feel free to tear up a bit of the God Delusion. Just don't mess with the Origin of the Species. The book of Origin is sacred. Hallowed are the Ori.
Posted by: en zeero zeero ate fife fore wun ate zeero tee | July 24, 2008 6:18 PM
I find it hilarious that the religionutters continue to claim that their crazy ideas should be given respect and reverence when they accord any ideas not their own (and those that hold them) with hatred, violence and derision. Yet they claim to be unbiased, unbigoted and caring for all people. Ah the bigotry and malice of the religious fanatic, a wonder to behold for the sheer irrationality of it.
Kudos PZ, I think it's about time that people in America stopped walking on eggshells to preserve the opinions of those that hate anyone that does not subscribe to their own ignominious cult.
I've always found it profoundly disappointing that so many people are unwilling to have the courage and personal integrity to distance themselves from such hateful, violent cults, and instead embrace the much more difficult path of wonder that lies in exploring the vast and innumerable intricacies of the natural world (accessible only by reasoned and intelligent thought, rather than pathetic ancient mythologies).
Incredibly amusing is the fact that most of them fundamentally do not understand anything about ethics, or would immediately distance themselves from inherently unethical organizations such as the Catholic Church and other such cults.
Posted by: Cheezits | July 24, 2008 6:18 PM
Up till now, I think I had the idea in the back of my mind that most Catholics regarded the transubstantiation doctrine as just one of those silly things that the church teaches, that they don't really believe but they go along with it so as not to offend their grandmother. And maybe most of them do feel that way, I don't know. But here we have supposedly adult people claiming with a presumably straight face that they actually believe "as a Catholic" that the wafer really is somehow transformed into the Body of Our Lord by some Mystery that they can only Accept On Faith and therefore it is up to the rest of us to respect that belief. How the heck am I supposed to respect such a ludicrous belief? The best I can hope to do is keep my mouth shut when I am around Catholics on their own turf, and stay out of their churches. (I have no plan to join the teeming throngs of thousands of atheists who are going to descend upon every Mass to desecrate their Holy Objects.) Hopefully that's all they ask.
But if I catch anyone being rude to a Cheez-it there will be hell to pay!
Posted by: anthropic | July 24, 2008 6:18 PM
Rayven Alandria@972,
Very well said.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
Nicole @1015
No, it's real. I went to a very, very conservative Catholic school and that is exactly what I was taught. See, if every one followed the teachings of the catholic church, the world would be a happy place with rainbows and butterflies and unicorns prancing all around.
Posted by: CalGeorge | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
There once was a silly old cracker
That had some Catholic backers
It symbolized flesh
Until PZ got fresh
Now it's munched on by atheist snackers.
Posted by: MRM | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
I have hope in spite of your actions. Us crazy cracker worshipping freaks and others like us are just going to continue outbreeding your ilk. So go ahead and spew your hatred and your desire that we hold nothing sacred. But we will continue to do so. And we will soon outnumber your kind.
Posted by: Skeeve | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
Rayven Alandria!!!! Long time no see! Sorry to see MajorBytes sell atheists.com to the Turkish hackers...but I'm working on something to fill the gap. Look to the old yahoo atheistsdotcom group to get my email addy and send me a line and I'll pass along what I'm up to.
Posted by: H.H. | July 24, 2008 6:20 PM
Not a single outraged Christian has so much as attempted to address the points laid out in PZ's essay, which pretty much makes their outrage impotent. Catholics: you have not been persecuted. You are not the victim of a hate crime. You have had your religion criticized; both verbally and in symbolic action, intelligently and with due consideration, and you have not responded with anything approaching a rational argument.
It's "salt of the Earth" sheep like you that have always been responsible for the greatest ruin. Even if Hitler was secretly an atheist, it was good Christian folk who carried out his orders. I hope you all take your false outrage, bruised vanity, substanceless whining, false piety, and medieval ignorance and seriously grow the fuck up. Learn to think for yourselves instead of feeling so sorry for yourselves. Have the strength to abandon superstition and stop confusing ignorance with knowledge. Ah, wasted words. If you had any salvageable sense you wouldn't be the ignorant masses that you are. The fact that you can't see you are deluded is what makes you so deluded.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 6:20 PM
#972 Some of us even hate each other.
You seem to pretty much have the hate thing down
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
_________________________________________
Yep, and some of us are quite honest about it. I don't run around claiming to love people and spout passive agressive shit like "I'll pray for you", when in truth I can't stand them.
I am full of hatred towards certain kinds of people. I don't see that as a negative trait. I respect your right to feel that it is a negative trait though. The world won't end if we disagree.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 6:20 PM
Thus spake Fr. J:
Yes, indeed. For a holocaust revisionist like you, I'd recommend Betrayal: German Churches and the Holocaust, by Ericksen and Heschel, and Hitler's Priests, by Kevin Spicer.Posted by: Observer | July 24, 2008 6:20 PM
I enjoy Fr. J's posts simply for the irony of reading a lecture about blasphemy from a man impersonating a priest.
Posted by: Hairhead | July 24, 2008 6:20 PM
BobC, when are you going to throw away your atheism because of what Mao did? Or do you deny that Mao was an atheist, just like the absurd claims that Hitler was a Catholic? Everyone remembers that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews, but everyone seems to forget about his 3 million Polish Catholic victims. Whoops?
To John L. @ 998
You said: In reality, Hitler was "raised Catholic" but rejected the vast majority of the teachings of the faith as he got older.
I say: Which teachings? Hitler professing Catholicism and Christianity to the end of his days.
You said: Huh, just like many atheists! Fancy that.
I say: Actually, many atheists rejected fewer of the teachings of the church than did Hitler; atheist community activists, atheists donating to the poor, atheists protectng the freedom of speech (a lot of times, the speech of religious persons). Fact is, you can't find any atheist who proclaims that his/her atheism allows mass murder and atrocity. You can't.
You said: By the way, here's an FYI for those who blame AIDS on the Catholic Church - if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy.
I say: If we all became Catholic, the thousands of buggering priests would continue to be protected by the hierarchy of the Church, and would spread AIDS to both male and female children.
John, I am the son of a minister, and your tone is hateful, your analogies specious, and your view of human nature far uglier than anything I have found promulgated by atheists.
But don't stop talking, whatever you do! Smarmy, self-righteous, lying religionists such as you do more for atheism than Harris, Dawkins, or Myers.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:21 PM
Yeah, have fun with that, or whatever. However, I doubt any reasonable court in the land would buy your claim that my calling you a 'prick' strengthened your support for a genocidal institution. The strength of your 'faith' is on your own head.
But I wouldn't go gloating about how clean my language is if I were you; after all, you do wash it out with your own blood-stained hands, do you not?
Posted by: Jeff | July 24, 2008 6:22 PM
I used to think stunts like this were cool. Then, I turned 12 and started to grow up. I think this is simply a childish fit and is unbecoming of a professor.
No one can know, with absolute certainty, whether or not God exists. Christians, Catholics, and Muslims take it on faith that he does. Atheists take it on faith that he doesn't exist and yet ridicule the faith of believers.
I agree that some have overreacted, but that is human nature. The death threats, if they have really been made, are uncalled for but then again, so was this stunt.
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 6:22 PM
Holy crap, don't you people work?! I'm sitting at my lab bench just doing my PCR, and look what happens! Over 1000 posts already and I've just noticed the post. Such a responsible grad student like myself has no hope of ever posting in a recognizable position on such an important and highly anticipated thread. Hum, maybe one day :)
Anyways, PZ, I am very impressed with your manner of desecration. I was really hoping you would throw in a copy/ page of the Origin of Species, or the God Delusion like you did. You made the perfect statement. I also found the banana peels quite fitting. You're a good man, and hopefully this will all be over for you soon enough!
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:24 PM
Nicole, do you atheists not value your intelligence? Then think about it.
-The Catholic Church teaches that nobody should ever have sex outside of marriage.
-AIDS became a pandemic because of promiscuous sexual behavior. Infected needles and blood transfusions were secondary causes of HIV infections which came about later on.
-Therefore, if nobody in the world was promiscuous, AIDS would only have claimed a tiny number of lives before finding itself without a human host and disappearing from the world.
Help fight AIDS - convert to Catholicism.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 6:24 PM
Evil Nicole( ;)) says "It DOES make a difference to people who are on the fence with losing their faith. It does make them sit up and say, "wait, I believed what? Hmm, maybe that is a bit silly." Having been in that situation myself once, such an example would have been helpful in looking at things rationally, rather than being morally torn between tradition and reason."
I say: Conversely, Mister Meyers might have turned a few people towards Christianity just because they now think all atheists behave so monstrously towards anyone that lacks the same sense of 'there-is-no-god.'
When I showed my atheistic friends (and believe me I have them...living in the SF Bay Area, you can't throw a rock without hitting one) this blog, some said 'awesome,' while others still seemed disgusted by it all.
I mean okay, I get it. PZ believes it's all a crock of shit. Good on him but... why not just dismiss Christianity/Catholicism out of hand and go on about his atheistic day? Who exactly is he trying to convince, here? Is he even trying to convince anyone? If not, what is the purpose of it all other than exercising his right of free speech? For that matter, why is this getting so much press?
To all my fellow Catholics/Christians... I think we should choose our battles wisely. Hitting brick walls have never served to do any more than bloody your knuckles. Actually, that goes for Mister Meyers as well. If you even read this far, as a fellow human being, I advise that you choose your battles wisely.
Ah crud, this turned out to be much longer than I anticipated.
Evil Nicole also says: "BTW, if you are Catholic, and I am atheist, does that make me Evil Nicole? And if so, do I have to grow a goatee?"
I say: Can you sprout a goatee on demand? That'd be pretty wicked (pun intended!)...though you might wanna be careful - your growing of a full-on goatee might constitute a miracle. ;)
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 6:24 PM
The Church does not help AIDS epidemic at all, and abstinence-only does not work. Sexuality is hardwired in everyone.
Look at teen pregnancy rates in abstinence-only public curriculum states.
Look at pedophile priests.
A person who has never masturbated (which is condemned by most religions) is either lying or has psychological or physiological damage. You most likely have committed this sin as well.
Posted by: Longstreet63 | July 24, 2008 6:24 PM
Sandi @964
"If we follow your analogy, any non-Christians (including atheists) who committed brutal acts in the year 1215 or otherwise should be punished today--in 2008"
Sorry, but isn't that actually basic to Christianity? The punishment of everyone living for the sins of someone in the distant, mythological past?
Or, wait, is it the part about the human sacrifice 2000 years ago that secured eternal forgiveness for everyone everywhere for the sins of that original sinner?
But then, if that was the case, I don't see what fuss is being made, since if one believes that, then God has already pre-emptively forgiven everyone for everything, including any host desecration.
But that does complicate the idea of the eternal punishment in fire said to be awaiting almost everyone, despite the eternal forgiveness by human sacrifice for the sins of the originator and any and all others.
And of course, the part where the dead sacrifice came back to life, and will return to kill everyone in vengeance for it, which maybe explains why the sacrifice didn't take.
I'm a bit confused now. Should everyone be held responsible for their own actions or should some people be able to have another person punished to escape such responsibility?
I'm leaning to the first position, myself.
And by the way, if you can find anyone around who committed any crimes in 1215, best drive a stake through their hearts.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 6:25 PM
Hitler was baptised Catholic, took communion, and was confirmed. You believe those three "sacraments" left an indelible mark on his soul. By your own standard, he was a Catholic. Deal with it.Posted by: John Charles | July 24, 2008 6:25 PM
PZ handled this brilliantly, much better than I would have.
Adding the God Delusion was the perfect coda, and really drove home the point.
*applause*
Posted by: Robert | July 24, 2008 6:25 PM
Look, it's easy to prove that PZ Meyers did not, in fact, do this. The (offensive!) logic is as follows:
* PZ showed that he'd ripped out pages out of some books. This is book desecration. You know how else liked to desecrate books? Nazis! Ergo: PZ is a Nazi!
* Nazis forced Jews to wear special identification, as required as a result of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215. Ergo: Nazis are good Catholics. Ergo: PZ is a good Catholic.
* No good Catholic would desecrate the Host in any way other than the church-approved method of mastication followed by exposure to digestive acids. Ergo: PZ did not actually desecrate the Host!
See? Simple logic. ;)
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 6:25 PM
TG
The only thing worse than being a troll is being a boring one.
++++++++++++
I am doing what the good scientist does - demanding empirical evidence that (in this case PZ's) claim is true, and evaluating what is put forward.
So far, it all looks like a huge fake. At least, that's the indication from the paucity of evidence - a suspicious photo and a YouTube video posted by some guy apparently in Britain who writes that "The cracker will be kept wrapped in a condom until the Catholic Church recognises the legitimacy of the Golden Rule." That's the guy PZ claims he got the "consecrated communion wafer" from. Somebody has no credibility in that pair, you'd agree.
No doubt that is boring to a true disciple willing to accept anything that is said by his authority.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:26 PM
You know you can still be infected with HIV through male to child oral and anal sex, right? Because obviously, converting to Catholicism has done nothing to stop that.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:27 PM
I agree, Tony, sexuality is definitely hard-wired into people. Good thing that the Catholic church isn't anti-sex!
It's just anti-fornication.
Help fight AIDS - convert to Catholicism.
Posted by: warren | July 24, 2008 6:28 PM
@brownian
zing.
Posted by: me | July 24, 2008 6:30 PM
Posted by: Sioux Laris | July 24, 2008 6:30 PM
Dear PZ,
Now, I'm pretty sure you'll never see this post as the thread approaches 1000, and that you'll likely be too busy to answer this question (no problem, if so!), but I was wondering if, as you performed the "desecration" of these unremarkable inanimate objects, what I call "my little angel of childish superstition" fretted impotently from some little corner of your mind about your act?
I don't mean that you had any qualms about this, but rather that a little bit of you actually still, childishly, "hoped to see the magic" - as if, as Richard Dawkins recalls in avoiding stepping on cracks while walking home from school as a child, important things depended solely upon your casual actions.
Just wondering.
Posted by: Dave Child | July 24, 2008 6:30 PM
Bravo, Mr Myers. You have done entirely the right thing. Crackers are evil anyway - cookies are the one true biscuit of salvation! Chocolate chip only, of course - the others are all evil.
Love the adding of The God Delusion to the pile. Thoroughly enjoyed reading it, but it's still, like the Koran (and probably the cracker too) only paper.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:30 PM
Brownian, raping children is against Catholic teaching. I said that the liberal Catholics would have to return to orthodoxy, didn't I?
Help fight AIDS - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism
Posted by: Agersomnia | July 24, 2008 6:31 PM
Well done!
So sad--- I arrived when there were 997 comments, but by the time I finished reading the entry it was faaaar after that. I hoped to get the #1000
This definitely increased web viewers to Pharyngula!
Posted by: JonathanL | July 24, 2008 6:31 PM
Or if everyone practiced safe sex outside of monogamous relationships and were tested regularly, AIDS wouldn't be nearly as big a problem. See my solution works without magic and ignorance.
Posted by: Cherl Hurley | July 24, 2008 6:31 PM
I think this is very sad. I cannot understand why someone who cares so little about a religion would have to take such drastic measures. You must be very hurt and angry but lucky for us Our Lord is all good and mercy. I will pray for your protection as I am sure that the evil one rejoices in you desecrating this eucharist. So may the heavenly angels surround you and yours at this time. Jesus pour your precious blood upon all those involved Amen!
Posted by: Che | July 24, 2008 6:32 PM
Damn PZ, you are a good writer. By the time I got to the end I was giggling with anticipation.
Posted by: Chemist | July 24, 2008 6:32 PM
Now, what was it that the Anti-Christ was supposed to do in his spare time???
This and associated threads should be in the running for some sort of participation award!
Anybody checked for fulminations from the Catholic League site yet?
Posted by: brandon | July 24, 2008 6:32 PM
if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy.
Jesus fucking Christ, you're dumb.
Posted by: cq | July 24, 2008 6:32 PM
You could have gotten a consecrated cracker and an unconsecrated cracker and nailed both of them. That would have driven the zealots even more insane. Which one is Jesus and which is just a cracker? If someone "rescued" the crackers from your trash, they would have to consecrate both just to be safe, then do whatever is done with consecrated crackers. But what happens when you try to turn the Body of Christ into the Body of Christ again? Bad things, I'll bet, bad things.
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 6:33 PM
John #965:
Visit Morris in winter and PZ will gladly demonstrate his walking on water mad skillz for you. Be sure to wrap up warm.
Martin
Posted by: Eli | July 24, 2008 6:33 PM
PZ, this is absolutely brilliant and it's so much better than I was hoping. It was classy, intelligent, and sincere. Bravo.
Posted by: Bill | July 24, 2008 6:33 PM
#1056, I honestly can't tell if that's sarcasm or not...
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:34 PM
Yawn. What about Ganeesh? Shiva? Zeus? Thor? Triglav? Unkulunkulu? Anybody know, with absolute certainty, whether or not they exist?
And they take it on faith that Ganeesh, Shiva, Zeus, Thor, Triglav, and Unkulunkulu don't.
Christians and Muslims have persecuted, tortured and murdered thousands of believers in Ganeesh, Shiva, Zeus, Thor, Triglav, and Unkulunkulu.
Boy, us atheists are real assholes in comparison, aren't we?
Posted by: One involved | July 24, 2008 6:34 PM
I don't want his blood poured on me, thats gross.
Posted by: Andy James | July 24, 2008 6:34 PM
Yay! I thought you were going to eat the crackers with peanut butter and a banana to give them some character and flavor which they desperately need, and that it would be all done on the open Quran/Koran/whatever.
Its funny. the religious pay so much attention to the fate of some shitty cracker, and abandon everyone else. Just like their god, they're bark is far far worse than their bite. Little yapping poodles.
My father also reared me to be a skeptic, to have the confidence to investigate the world and learn from my mistakes, and to treat everyone as the human being I would also want in reciprocal.
Atheism is the first step, while empiricism, science, learning provide the paths to true fulfillment in our short evolutionary live.
Posted by: echidna | July 24, 2008 6:34 PM
Ice Farmer @1001,
"You should have recycled everything or at least recycled the nail and added the paper, coffee, banana, etc. to your back yard composter."
I think not. That would have been an invitation to every RC marauder around to invade his back yard to "rescue" the cracker to give it a decent burial.
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 6:35 PM
Posted by: Michael Pack | July 24, 2008 6:35 PM
Absolutely Briliant!! The intelligence in this argument is astounding; awe inspiring!! The Catholics might as well pack up and move along, as they don't have a hope in fairy kingdom, or where ever it is they think they go, to compete with that on a level playing field. Judging by their replies, they've clearly accepted as much as have digressed further still into childish banter, threats and name calling.
PZ, you are my personal hero sir! Encour Encour Encour! BRAVO! BRAVO! *CHEERING*
Posted by: Aleksei | July 24, 2008 6:35 PM
Dear PZ,
As this is the 819th comment, I wonder whether you'll read it, but I hope you will, because I'd really like to hear your response.
I'm a skeptic & an atheist & a big fan of yours. It goes without saying that Cook's actions were overreacted to. He was physically assaulted, he was the subject of widespread public ire, he received death threats, and there's a campaign to get him expelled. All this for what can at worst (at WORST) be described as a mean-spirited prank. I think you, and I, and even the vast majority of Catholics in the world would agree with that. The ones sending you smug prayers and vicious threats represent an extremist minority - every Catholic I've spoken to about it thinks Cook was being an idiot, but none of them condone the torrent of hate he's been handed as a result of his actions.
My question is, in criticizing the overreaction, do we really need to overlook the nastiness of what Cook did? Don't you agree that it's nasty to go into a place where people are performing a ritual and screw with it? Don't you agree that it's wrong to, without provocation, misrepresent yourself and participate, in bad faith (no pun intended), in something that matters to other people, with the sole intention of messing with something they don't want you to mess with? Can we just please agree that, the silliness of the belief aside, it's at best a stupid thing to do, and at worst a pretty mean-hearted thing to do? I'm all for showing no respect to the belief itself (and I know you agree with me there), but I can't see any reason not to respect the people who believe it.
I guess, most importantly, I don't think that their overreaction is any justification whatsoever for repeating, and expanding on, Cook's actions. It's second-grade ethics: Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Maybe that one doesn't ring true if your position is, "I would have others disabuse me of irrational beliefs," but what if you thought of it differently: "I would have others respect my right to privately practice my religion (or lack thereof) the way I see fit, and not go out of their way to interfere with it." Maybe a more apropos basic tenet of human morality would be "Two wrongs don't make a right".
Your post today is 95% wonderful. The history of the Eucharist is something that needed to be told. You make a succession of really excellent points with which I wholeheartedly agree. But that picture! (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, the suggestion in your initial post...) It doesn't ADD anything. You said it all. You managed to be critical of a stupid belief, you were snarky and funny and yet informative, and you made better arguments than anyone on the other side ever has or will. You represented the idiots as the idiots they are, and did so in the best way possible, by simply reprinting their own words. It's a masterwork of skeptical criticism and it's an informative, entertaining read! What does a picture of a crucified wafer add to your argument? What purpose is possibly served, other than showing a stubborn refusal to be dissuaded? Couldn't it be that by going to all this trouble, and facing all this anger and resentment in order to crucify a cracker, that you're actually giving it just as much importance as the Catholics?
Your words make me proud, PZ, but your actions in this case make me sad. We're better than them. We don't need to stoop to childish bullshit to compete with them. We win on the basis of our ideas.
I remain a fan, but I'd really love to know your response to my questions.
Thanks,
Aleksei
Brooklyn, NY
Posted by: spurge | July 24, 2008 6:35 PM
No one cares what you think TG
Not to mention the fact that it does not matter if it is real or not.
Posted by: Bill | July 24, 2008 6:35 PM
#1060, is that like Jesus turducken?
Posted by: IceFarmer | July 24, 2008 6:36 PM
@#962 - Sandi
Sandi, you ignorant s.... wait, that's already been used on this blog.
Anyway, you completely missed the point. PZ is not a bigot. He thinks that religion is stupid and doesn't believe in it. Is this not his constitutional right? What about freedom of speech and expression? The issue with the Eucharist was one of PZ making a point about what happened in Florida. A person is more important than a symbol. The analogies you made are overblown and don't correlate to what's been done. PZ has never taught hate. Just because he disagrees with you doesn't mean he hates you. You should perhaps do your research and figure out exactly what has led PZ to do this before you light the torches and go on a witch hunt. You get the picture, now pull you head out of your ass and start thinking.
BTW, MY LAST POST WAS #1001! SWEET! How long will the thread get?
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 6:36 PM
Lewandowski has the right idea, but isn't really exploiting the broad range of social degeneracies which are cured through Catholicism. I'll help him out:
Help fight heliocentrism - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight literacy - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight liberalism - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight modern medicine - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight free speech - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight heresy - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight the theory of the circulatory system - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Posted by: Jamie | July 24, 2008 6:36 PM
Your final paragraph should be a slap the face of the daft buggers that constitute the Catholic faith. So it's a terrible shame they'll be frothing at the mouth so hard after the first couple and never make it to the end!
"Isaac does not regard every idea as equally deserving, since he clearly considers the atheist idea that the sacraments of his faith are empty foolishness to be an outrage. Rather, what he loves is the idea that everyone else must respect his beliefs, no matter what they are, and that any disagreement is an insult" - HOW VERY VERY CORRECT YOU ARE PROF. MYERS
And as for the paragraph that begins "I think if I were truly evil..." that is the very definition of hitting the nail (rusty, tetanus laced) on the head.
Kindest Regards
Jamie
Posted by: Neural T | July 24, 2008 6:36 PM
Digg this blog post:
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Pharyngula_The_Great_Desecration
Let's get it on the front page.
Posted by: Martha | July 24, 2008 6:37 PM
Nothing must be held sacred.
Including, it would seem, basic common standards of courtesy and human decency.
Posted by: warren | July 24, 2008 6:38 PM
Any angry muslims yet?
Posted by: The Chief Instigator | July 24, 2008 6:38 PM
Good on you, P.Z. The Whore of Rome wants to bring back the Inquisition, but unfortunately for the Vatican, it's not the 15th Century any more. (I got cured of any attraction towards organized religion thanks to seeing Oral Roberts and his charades on all three Tulsa TV stations on Sunday mornings when I was a child.) My non-theism hasn't prevented me from getting married and being a parent and grandparent, as well as being a reponsible member of my community. Keep up the good work. (If I had a "consecrated" wafer, I'd let the neighbor's cat have it.)
Posted by: The Other Dan from Milwaukee | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
[sarcasm]Wow ... there must be a whole set of movies out there with cracker abusing bad-guys that I am missing out on. I'll be sure to check out the "Saltines" rack next time I go to Blockbuster.[/sarcasm]
Posted by: Chemist | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
Will there be video at 11 (or whenever the late evening news comes on in your area)???
Forget YouTube---Donahue has probably already had it banned over there....
Posted by: Elastico | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
If Prof. Myers lost his job over this, it would be as meaningless as everything else in the universe.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
So what? Seriously, what real difference does it make?
That's the whole point. Look at how these people are going out of their fucking minds, with, as you point out, absolutely no concrete proof that PZ actually desecrated anything.
It's a thing of beauty, like a room full of dominoes. You know what's going to happen when you knock the first one over, but it's mesmerizing nonetheless.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
Brandon said: "Jesus fucking Christ, you're dumb."
Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!
You could argue (as some have) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for human beings to wait until marriage to have sex, and then, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to not cheat on their spouses... but that kind of argumentation doesn't speak very highly of the human race. I doubt an atheist - a "humanist" - would say that humans CANNOT control themselves any more than animals can. That would be an anti-humanistic thing to say.
Posted by: Jelle De Loecker | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
This was an amazing read, thanks!
Posted by: wÒÓ† | July 24, 2008 6:41 PM
Totally Photoshopped.
I eagerly await Dawkins' fatwa.
Posted by: Andy James | July 24, 2008 6:41 PM
Its too late for me.
Now that the religious have shown a desire to subjugate democracy in favor of their totalitarian theocracy, or even to place religion next to science in the classroom, they will forever be ridiculed by me personally and criticized in public and in the harshest manner I can objectively muster.
Religion ought to be chased right out of every town and country with our superior powers of irony and sarcasm, and ridicule.
Posted by: Saint Michael the Archangel | July 24, 2008 6:42 PM
PZ,
How do we know that the host that you just nailed was consecrated? Do you have a verification slip and where did you get it from?
I think that you need an exorcism - your body must be flooded with legions of fallen angels, you are truly an evil bigot who is fallen due to pride.
Vade Retro Satana, Ipse Venena Bibas!!!
Lux,
St. Michael
Posted by: Sauve | July 24, 2008 6:42 PM
My respects PZ.
You are the man!
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:42 PM
Translation:
Abridged version:
Posted by: Liz S | July 24, 2008 6:43 PM
If I follow your "logic" correctly, the Catholic Church did a few things you didn't like in the year 1215, so you feel justified today in desecrating Catholic property and intentionally baiting Catholics? Sandi, #964
First, I think it was the Catholic Church giving that kid in Florida hell for saving a wafer for show-and-tell that Dr. Myers didn't like. I didn't much care for it either. Second, am I to understand that Sandi thinks the Catholic church owns Jesus Christ? Or is it just all communion wafers in the world?
Posted by: Chemist | July 24, 2008 6:43 PM
From Bro. Bill over at the Catholic League:
Thursday July 24, 2008
MYERS DESECRATES THE EUCHARIST
July 24, 2008
University of Minnesota professor Paul Z. Myers made good on his pledge to desecrate the Eucharist today. According to his statement on the subject, "I pierced it [the Host] with a rusty nail (I hope Jesus's tetanus shots are up to date). And then I simply threw it in the trash."
Saying he did not want to "single out just the cracker," Myers also tore pages from the Koran along with a few pages from Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and nailed them to the Host. He then said, "They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. (His emphasis.) Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet."
Catholic League president Bill Donohue responded as follows:
"A formal complaint against Myers has already been made. What he did--in both word and deed--constitutes a bias incident, as defined by the University of Minnesota. The policy says that 'Expressions of disrespectful bias, hate, harassment or hostility against an individual, group or their property because of the individual or group's actual or perceived race, color, creed, religion...can be forms of discrimination. Expressions vary, and can be in the form of language, words, signs, symbols, threats, or actions that could potentially cause alarm, anger, fear, or resentment in others...even when presented as a joke.'
"The University must now take action and apply the appropriate sanction. We are contacting the president, Board of Regents and the Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action Office at the school, as well as Minnesota's governor and both houses of the state legislature; the Catholic community in Minnesota is also being contacted. Moreover, we are also contacting Muslim groups nationwide.
"It is important for Catholics to know that the University of Minnesota will not tolerate the deliberate destruction of the Eucharist by one of its faculty. Just as African Americans would not tolerate the burning of a cross, and Jews would not tolerate the display of swastikas, Catholics will not tolerate the desecration of the Eucharist."
Contact Myers at myersp@morris.umn.edu
Contact President Robert Bruininks at bruin001@umn.edu
Posted by: Aleksei | July 24, 2008 6:43 PM
@ #1077 (Martha)
Here, here. That's exactly my point.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:43 PM
Dustin, it's sad to see that you and your fellow atheists seem to be incapable of questioning the idea that condoms are the only solution to AIDS. Apparently you can question our sacred cows, but not your own.
Posted by: Observer | July 24, 2008 6:43 PM
Aleksei@1070,
Nothing I have read of the Webster Cook incident indicates that he went into the Mass with any bad intent. It looks as if he made a mistake, simply intending to show the cracker to his friend, then things escalated. He may have been ignorant, and he probably responded poorly, but when trivial errors are met with extremist responses, escalation is pretty much what you'd expect. In any case, he returned the host, apologized, and his apology was reportedly accepted by church in question. His continued persecution appears to be at the hand of people who have inserted themselves into the problem for their own selfish reasons.
Posted by: James | July 24, 2008 6:44 PM
I really like the image of the wafer in the trash, along with the Qur'an. To really make a point, though, you should also have had an American flag in the trash can, too. People love to worship at the alter of nationalistic jingoism as much as anything else. It would go along with your statement "Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything." Desecrating a piece of cloth with some specific colors & patterns on it is no different than something like a holy book or religious symbol. They all represent a belief in a imaginary set of ideals that some think should be worshiped and given allegiance to.
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 6:44 PM
There are two flaws.
1) Trying to apply something to everyone DOES NOT WORK (cf Vaccines and recurrence of polio, and people refusing the genital wart vaccine)
2) You further it with "Therefore convert". Conversion is not sufficient, nor is it necessary. As I've mentioned before, the only partner that cheated on me was the devout Christian, never an atheist.
Posted by: MM | July 24, 2008 6:45 PM
Hey PZ- this is how it works- you push the rock over the ledge and let everyone else deal with the damage. You just sit back and read huh? COWARD-
The only damage to date is one woman who was fired from her job with 1-800-flowers. She was fired because her husband used her work email account to send PZ an unambiguous death threat.That's the husband's fault, not PZ's.
Posted by: CJO | July 24, 2008 6:45 PM
I think this is very sad. I cannot understand why someone who cares so little about a religion would have to take such drastic measures.
Dude. He put some stuff in the garbage.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:46 PM
Says the man who calls himself Saint Michael the Archangel.
Posted by: Matthew | July 24, 2008 6:46 PM
Christ said, "I would that you were for me or against me; the lukewarm I will spew from my mouth." It seems you are in a better position than many Catholics. However, when you are converted and rue your sin, no one will hail you or listen to you. You'll suddenly be far from the lime light. However, for now you will be feted by the children of this world like a celebrity. And, yes, though you are blind to the spiritual, the demons are cheering you and your blind followers on. But beware, you may be at the edge of the ditch.
Posted by: jorge | July 24, 2008 6:46 PM
Dios tenga piedad de ti.
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 24, 2008 6:47 PM
"Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!"
Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone shared everything they owned, communism would work flawlessly. This is undeniably true!
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 6:47 PM
He did no such thing: he never went near a Catholic mass. He received a few communion wafers in the mail and threw them in the garbage with the other trash.Posted by: Zaphod | July 24, 2008 6:47 PM
John Lewandowski said:
> You could argue (as some have) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for
> human beings to wait until marriage to have sex, and
> then, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to not cheat on their
> spouses... but that kind of argumentation doesn't speak
> very highly of the human race.
According to your mythology, your god couldn't even keep itself from schtooping a hot, young engaged chick. Why would you expect humans to do any better?
Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 24, 2008 6:47 PM
Man, anyone want to write some software that determines the CPH (i.e. comments per hour)?
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 6:47 PM
What are you talking about? I'm on your side man!Help stop the due process of law - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism!
Help stop the spread of governments which do not defer to the divine authority of the Pope - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism!
Help stop fornication - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism!
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 6:48 PM
The soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS were not atheists.
Hitler had Catholic troops and Protestant troops.
And racism and nationalism were indeed an important part of Nazi doctrine. Hitler, and many other Christian Germans, were convinced that Poles were an inferior race, regardless of their religion.
I would bet a cracker that when he wanted to crush Polish Catholics, he sent in his Protestant troops.
That's a pretty despicable defense of lies and false testimony.
But you know what? We can fix it:
If everyone in the world followed sane medical teaching on using condoms, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to use condoms.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 6:48 PM
You just got finished admitting that you have no proof that he actually did anything, yet you still feel secure making this pronouncement.
Gotta love free demonstrations.
Posted by: Saint Michael the Archangel | July 24, 2008 6:48 PM
//Says the man who calls himself Saint Michael the Archangel.//
Pride is always evident before the fall. This man, just a mere mortal who doesn't have his head on straight will one day meet this God who he so disrespectfully tortured and made fun of and he will have to answer not only for his horrible act of cowardice, he will have to answer for the millions of Christians who he offended.
Yes.. I say PZ Myers is an evil man.
Posted by: Hoax | July 24, 2008 6:49 PM
I doubt that was a consecrated Eucharist. You can buy the wafers in bulk online unconsecrated. What a hoax.
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 6:49 PM
No one cares what you think TG
Not to mention the fact that it does not matter if it is real or not.
++++++++++++
Sure it matters. PZ claims he pierced a consecrated host with a rusty nail and then threw it in the trash. Yet, there is almost no evidence of this and what evidence he presents is highly suspicious.
For example, look at the photo carefully. There is lot of leaching of liquid from th coffee grounds into the paper, yet there appears to be none from th coffee grounds on "the cracker'. How come? Also, look at the shadow the nail casts. Why does it stop exactly at the edge of "the cracker"? Real of Photoshopped?
Of course, I guess it doesn't matter if you take your authority's word for it, unquestioned. For those of us who are real scientists, that is anathema.
Posted by: El Herring | July 24, 2008 6:49 PM
Let's examine this "Hitler was an atheist" rumour a bit more.
There is plenty of evidence that, far from him being atheist, he actually thought he was divine:
and more:
and yet more:
Read it all here: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/oss-papers/text/oss-profile-01.html
All indicators to the effect that Hitler had a serious case of divinity pychosis. This has been well documented. I'm sick to death of hearing about Hitler's supposed "atheism". For Christ's sake people, do some research.
Posted by: Aleksei | July 24, 2008 6:50 PM
@ #1095 (Observer)
You're right. I said it was at best stupid, at worst mean-spirited. Maybe it was only stupid. With PZ, though, there's no question. It's both.
I didn't know Cook had returned the cracker and apologized. I think that's wonderful news, and I think PZ should do the same. It won't hurt his argument one iota to do that, and it would be a small step toward us regaining the high ground in this controversy.
Posted by: Brian | July 24, 2008 6:50 PM
Peace be with you
Posted by: brandon | July 24, 2008 6:51 PM
Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!
Ryan White and a generation of hemophiliacs would tend to take umbrage upon your assertions.
So would all of those who practice "chastity outside of the marriage" -- whatever that means. Do you practice chastity at the bus stop, too? Chastity when playing chess? Chastity at the mall? -- who have themselves been infected by previously infected partners, who may or may not be practicing "chastity outside the marriage" themselves.
Your argument is not an argument, it's infantile wish fulfillment.
Cheers, asshole.
Posted by: Andy James | July 24, 2008 6:51 PM
By the way, ALL of my pals who were Catholics when we were children are now Atheists: rabid, sarcastic, fun loving, irreverent, empathetic, atheists.
In other words good people who you can count on in a tough spot because they identify with you as a fellow human, not as a merit badge for post-death fantasy garbage.
Posted by: marc buhler | July 24, 2008 6:51 PM
Just to add my suppport for you, PZ - well done.
Excellent post - I hope there is still room for my comment!
(signed) marc
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:52 PM
You know the legions of studies that show abstinence-only education makes kids more likely to get pregnant outside of marriage and contract STIs? That's what we call questioning.
I mean, if even your priests can't remain celebate, how do you expect children to?
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 6:52 PM
Yeah, getting caught up in a witch hunt will do that to you. Use the stuff between your ears next time, before you listen to the incitements of a religious nutter.Posted by: en zeero zeero ate fife fore wun ate zeero tee | July 24, 2008 6:53 PM
MRM/#1029: I guess you haven't ever seen Idiocracy, since you seem to think that "outbreeding" rationalists is some sort of extreme virtue to be inordinately proud of. Of course, I wouldn't expect a religious nutter-zealot to understand why breeding for ignorance, hatred, bigotry and indoctrination into the aforementioned three is not something to be proud of.
Posted by: Amanda Marcotte | July 24, 2008 6:54 PM
I love the people praying for you. They hate you, but want anyone and everyone else to be the real source of their hatred---their asshole god who wants to burn you in hell, imaginary Arabs who will terrorist-ize you, whatever. They hope to magic some surrogates in there to hurt you.
Posted by: E.S.Cragg | July 24, 2008 6:54 PM
P.Z. Congrats, well said.
Fr. J - You have repeatedly informed us that we have somehow failed, because we have failed to change your mind. The self-centered ego-centrism you show with that judgment is quite telling.
You believe a tautology. There is nothing we could possibly say or do to break you of your self-referencing circle of 'Truth', years of brainwashing and strategic redefinitions have been intentionally placed on you to hobble your rational mind into accepting a fairy-tale as true.
No my friend, instead you've done nothing but serve as an illustration. Your words indict your own rationality and capacity for reading comprehension. You're not hear to learn or discuss, you're hear because your Truth compels you to sit here and preach it's madness, and we're simply being amused by the psychosis on parade.
Thanks for the laughs.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 6:54 PM
You could argue (as some have) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for human beings to wait until marriage to have sex,
Actually, I would argue that there is no need to, presuming the people involved used the proper precautions to minimize disease transfer. In fact, I would argue that this would lead to stronger marriages, as I have seen many, many a bad marriage made solely upon the foundation of "Omygod I'm 20 years old and haven't had sex yet and I can't until I'm married and I can't wait any longer". Those all tend to fall apart by the time the couple hit age 35 or so.
Why did this end up about sex again? It started off about a cracker. Jeez, religious people have a sex fixation. It's like that's all they can think about.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 24, 2008 6:54 PM
Weird. Is this TG also a 911 truther?
There's nothing remarkable about getting a communion wafer and tossing it in the trash.
Posted by: Jesus - Son of G-d | July 24, 2008 6:54 PM
Darnit, all this has been going on way too long now. I forgive everybody involved. Now please people, y'all go home now, there's nothing new to see here. And I gotta gangbang to go to with 12 of my male companions. Tally Ho!
Posted by: mandrellian | July 24, 2008 6:55 PM
You DARE to desecrate The God Delusion? The holy scipture of the atheist humanist secularist religion? Why don't you wipe your butt with On The Origin Of Species or Sagan's Demon Haunted World or Hawking's Brief History? You have offended my deeply-held atheist beliefs by throwing out a piece of paper with words I like printed on it!!!
I CALL HEATHEN FATWA ON PZ MYERS!!!
(*removes tongue from cheek - ow, that was in there pretty deep)
http://generalsystemsvehicle.blogspot.com/2008/07/crackergate-saga-continues-pz-nails-it.html
Onya PZ.
Posted by: Robert | July 24, 2008 6:56 PM
#1098 - don't forget the damage done to Webster Cook in Florida, who got the whole ball rolling.
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 24, 2008 6:56 PM
I love how the Catholics are trying to rationalize this: "But..but...but...I NO IT WUZNT RLY A CONSECRATED EUCHARIST!!!!" And they wonder why we call religion lunacy.
Posted by: Denis Castaing | July 24, 2008 6:56 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_opus
PZ, It's always a pleasure to read http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
MAGNUM OPUS All Hail!
I've saved an archive of 214 pages. Something to read again
on a lazy afternoon.
Atheist & Proud
DenisC
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:56 PM
I don't give a shit what the fuck you called him, moron. The prideful part is that you fancy yourself an archangel.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 6:57 PM
"yet there appears to be none from th coffee grounds on "the cracker'. How come?"
The cracker isn't as flimsy and absorbant as the paper. It also only has a couple tiny pieces of coffee on it.
"Also, look at the shadow the nail casts. Why does it stop exactly at the edge of "the cracker"? "
How you can see all this on a 40Kb jpeg is beyond me.
"Of course, I guess it doesn't matter if you take your authority's word for it, unquestioned. For those of us who are real scientists, that is anathema."
You're right, we're not being scientific enough. Quick, somebody get a grant so we can study that photograph properly.
Wanker.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 6:57 PM
Anyone want to be an alterboy for a 'special' service??
Posted by: me | July 24, 2008 6:57 PM
Y'all chickenshit.
Nobody's offended the _real_ scary religion.
Scient*logy. They gots lawyers.
Is it true if you paint a picture of Elron on the cracker first, it comes out different?
Posted by: jgirvine | July 24, 2008 6:58 PM
Good work, good message for people to take away, I sincerely hope they do.
Posted by: Metro | July 24, 2008 6:58 PM
I must say, PZ, that was a nicely done piece of work. By dismissing it as unimportant you acheived far more than if you'd immolated it, crapped on it, or performed some equally spectacular act.
Though I do hope it doesn't put you on the wrong side of U of M policies.
@John Lewandowski
My family were Catholics from at least 1899. My great-uncle and my great-great-grandfather were both bastards, born out of wedlock.
Do you say my grandfolks were lousy specimens of the human race? Is that what I'm supposed to take from your statement?
Your call for universal chastity until marriage, and complete faith within it, are as effective as Canute's injunction to the sea.
You can live in that fantasy world as long as you like, but the real one is happening every day. In Jakarta, in Delhi, in Port-Au-Prince, and in North America.
Failing chastity, the best option is universal condom use. But unlike you, I don't expect it to happen in my lifetime. Especially because the Catholic Church is so determined to breed more poor people, subjugate women, and spread preventible diseases.
Imagine just for one pitiable moment what would happen if the Pope stood up and said "Please! Use common sense, and a condom!" What good he could do with that simple statement.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 6:58 PM
Neural T
I've digged this post. I hope others do as well!
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 6:58 PM
TG it doesn't matter because there's no difference between an unconsecrated host and a blessed one because... NOTHING HAPPENS WHEN ONE IS BLESSED.
Unless of course mumbling words and waving hands while talking to an imaginary ghost actually does something to the chemical make up of the host.
But then of course we get the agruments the the host IS the same, but different and only the imaginary ghost knows the difference.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 6:59 PM
#1018 Thanks for that laugh, it was good.
_____________________________________
Rayven Alandria@972,
Very well said.
Posted by: anthropic
__________________________
Thanks, I won't hold my breath waiting for him to grasp it though.
Rayven
_________________
Rayven Alandria!!!! Long time no see! Sorry to see MajorBytes sell atheists.com to the Turkish hackers...but I'm working on something to fill the gap. Look to the old yahoo atheistsdotcom group to get my email addy and send me a line and I'll pass along what I'm up to.
Posted by: Skeeve | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
__________________________________
Hey there Skeeve! I just bookmarked your blog. I'll get in touch. I would post my email addy here, but somehow I think that would not be wise.
I think we need to make this crackerjack brigade into a book. I can't keep up with the posts anymore, everytime I click refresh there are a hundred more. I think I have missed many gaps in the conversation. It would be an entertaining book, I'd buy it. Go for it PZ, make it into a book.
It would also be a wonderful study for a psychology class. Watching people's minds in action during conversation, and especially heated ones, could be a good tool for a professor to use.
Rayven
Posted by: Neural T | July 24, 2008 6:59 PM
And, yes, though you are blind to the spiritual, the demons are cheering you and your blind followers on.
Another example that religion is brainwashing.
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 6:59 PM
So far, it all looks like a huge fake.
Posted by: TG
So what? Seriously, what real difference does it make?
++++++++++++
Oh, it makes all the difference regarding PZ's credibility and sense of respect for the truth. Both essential character traits of a reputable and trustworthy scientist.
Posted by: Kel | July 24, 2008 6:59 PM
And on the 7th day, God said "why so serious?"*
Nice explanation for it all. I'm still coming to grips with the idea that Catholics actually believe the cracker turns into the body of Christ. It's symbolic, not literal. It's even more absurd than believing in the talking snake, and that story is obviously allegorical. In the end, it's just another excuse for Catholics to get outrage and demand conformity from an otherwise increasingly apathetic world. It's influence is dying, using sensationalist stories like this to stay relevant is not going to help.
*may be attributed to The Joker
Posted by: Daniel W | July 24, 2008 7:00 PM
Speaking as an individual who is assisting Cook and Collard down here at UCF-
bravo.
Interestingly enough, the etymology of the word AMEN directly translates to "So Be It". Much like the word tetletsi (which is the final word of Christ-kabob) means "It is finished", but it is more so when discussing debt. So, yes, this does mean a Jew, being killed, used a banking term.
Surprise ?
Anyhow, congrats furthermore on this- good luck with the Catholic League. You, of course, have the support of all of us working down here.
Posted by: TomK | July 24, 2008 7:00 PM
Great Post. Hilarious.
By the way, probably unintentionally, this rises to the level of visionary religious art. I want to buy a print and donate the money to victims of religious violence.
Posted by: MM | July 24, 2008 7:00 PM
#1084 Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!
Since we still can't be sure how the AIDS virus entered the human population, your assertion is hardly "undeniably true." Sex is ONE way that AIDS is transmitted, but it's hardly the only way, and there's no reason to assume that it's the way the first human became infected.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 7:00 PM
Rob said: "There are two flaws.
1) Trying to apply something to everyone DOES NOT WORK (cf Vaccines and recurrence of polio, and people refusing the genital wart vaccine)"
Was that an intentional Freudian slip/double entendre or what? Trying to "apply" something to everyone does not work? Well, thanks for telling me that trying to convince everyone to apply condoms to themselves isn't going to work.
Rob also said: "2) You further it with "Therefore convert". Conversion is not sufficient, nor is it necessary. As I've mentioned before, the only partner that cheated on me was the devout Christian, never an atheist."
"Devout", you say? I don't recall; which branch of Christianity allows adultery?
Also, you are correct that conversion is not actually necessary! It is perfectly possibly for non-Catholics to only sleep with their spouses.
Owlmirror said: *Snip Hitler stuff*
Murdering people is against Catholic teaching.
Owlmirror also said: "That's a pretty despicable defense of lies and false testimony."
Is that how "reason" and "humanism" work? If you arbitrarily declare me to be a despicable liar, that makes it true, regardless of your lack of evidence or an argument? And you say I'm crazy for thinking that a cracker can be declared to be Jesus?
Owlmirrow went on to say: "If everyone in the world followed sane medical teaching on using condoms, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to use condoms."
Well, except that your friend Rob already informed us that "Trying to apply something to everyone DOES NOT WORK". Plus there's the fact that condoms fail every once in awhile. That sucks, doesn't it? But, if you want to play Russian Roulette with people's lives in order to hold up your sacred cow called a condom, that's your business.
Hmm... hey, Professor Myers! You should have thrown a condom in the garbage, too! Apparently they're an object of worship for many of your acolytes!
Posted by: Erwin Blonk | July 24, 2008 7:01 PM
"Kudos to Bill Donahue"
What he does understand is that if you want a religion to be powerful and influential, you need to be aggressive and need to defend and conquer.
Strangely, no catholic I ever met, placed prime interest in a large, powerful, influential and mighty catholic movement, more than satisfied with practicing the religion. Equally interesting, I never met agressive atheists, muslims or what have you (barring the occasional slightly pushy Jehova's Witness but even they weren't that bad).
I guess I must be a very lucky man. Or my experience actually mirror reality, a reality in which 99% of the people are happy to live their lives as they are. The other 1% meet on the internet. Mea culpa (which is just a latin phrase to me, while others may attach a more elaborate meaning to it).
Posted by: Arnaud | July 24, 2008 7:01 PM
Well done PZ! A freedom you cannot make use of is no freedom at all.
Posted by: maureen | July 24, 2008 7:01 PM
Gotcha "Fr J"
A real priest would know how to spell altar!
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 7:01 PM
Weird. Is this TG also a 911 truther?
No, apparently he's a real™ scientist. Must be a pain in the ass for him to commute to work; always questioning whether the next slab of concrete actually exists or whether he's been drugged to believe so and in fact is about to fall off of a very large cliff. To take the existence of the sidewalk on his own authority from the last time he trod it would be anathema.
Posted by: Angie | July 24, 2008 7:01 PM
I wish Catholics had become this outraged over the child abuse perpetrated by their beloved clergy.
Sad when baked goods rate more highly than children. And they call us evil.
Posted by: mandrellian | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
Onya PZ :)
http://generalsystemsvehicle.blogspot.com/2008/07/crackergate-saga-continues-pz-nails-it.html
.m.
Posted by: Kevin | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
All right, let's start making our bets. In three days, will the trash can lid be rolled away to reveal an empty tomb?
Crazy Christians.
Posted by: Angie | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
I wish Catholics had become this outraged over the child abuse perpetrated by their beloved clergy.
Sad when baked goods rate more highly than children. And they call us evil.
Posted by: SweetKevin | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
To post #1084:
If everybody practiced safe sex and got regular check-ups, it is unlikely anybody would have AIDS. Just because your argument may be true doesn't mean you have proven a point.
Furthermore, I'm sure you've heard Billy Joel's "Only the Good Die Young." In short, it's about how if try to avoid all risk in life, you're not really 'living'. Hence, only the 'good' (people who try to strictly follow all the rules) 'die young' (aren't living life to it's fullest potential).
Funnily enough, because of it's relevancy, the songs story focuses on a girl who is going to become a nun and Billy Joel is telling her she's throwing her life away. Great song.
"They say there's a heaven for those who will wait. Some say it's better, but I say it ain't. I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. Sinners are much more fun. Only the good die young."
Posted by: Dan | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
This was just amazing, a masterpiece of beautiful writing. The end result and picture to me was anti-climatic, but it's time to move on. In PZ's honor, tonight I shall have some crackers, wine and cheese.
Posted by: biggeo | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
the Great Desecration is a powerful essay;I was moved to tears by the end of it.I have renewed hope for humanity's bright future beyond superstition and hate.
Posted by: PM | July 24, 2008 7:03 PM
I may have missed it above, but I was hoping you would have subjected the wafers to scientific analysis to see if they had undergone transubstantiation. If they can bring in a team for the Shroud of Turin, why not for the wafers?
When I was a Christian, I belonged to a liberal Episcopal church that would use homemade bread and decent wine. Really! What a concept. Real bread, not something which is horrible styrofoam. Dare I say it -- it is not even bread. And the bread bringers generally would make them the morning of the service, and you could break off a nice warm chewy chunk.
If you're going to have a ritual, at least do it with style, no?
Posted by: IceFarmer | July 24, 2008 7:03 PM
@#1134
Good call! PZ should have had a copy of Battlefield Earth in there or something. Perhaps a picture of Tom Cruise or a characature or Xenu.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 7:03 PM
#1144 "By the way, probably unintentionally, this rises to the level of visionary religious art. I want to buy a print and donate the money to victims of religious violence."
LOL, send it to this church I guess.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/7521925.stm
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 7:03 PM
Donohue wrote:
Good thing you included the "God Delusion," a symbol of your own beliefs, PZ. It might save your ass. What you did isn't a lone attack on Catholicism, but on holding anything sacred in an abstract sense.
Posted by: NoLaughingMatter | July 24, 2008 7:04 PM
"and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
Posted by: Rose | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
Wow, calling Jesus a fruit...isn't that worse than what PZ did.
Posted by: JoJo | July 24, 2008 7:04 PM
Amazing read - and an excellent demonstration that nothing is sacred.
*applaud*
Posted by: The Country Shrink | July 24, 2008 7:04 PM
Just wondering what this whole thing has to do with science. It seems a whole lot more like Paul is being a demagogue for his own personal attention.
thecountryshrink.com
Posted by: Bobo | July 24, 2008 7:05 PM
#699
Some people have far too much time on their hands. Get out of the basement and get some fresh air.
Posted by: onclepsycho | July 24, 2008 7:05 PM
Hey, remember when PZ was expelled from Expelled? Already history, by now. What a year, professor!
How's the book going, by the way? Time to publish, you'll be on the lists forever!
Congratulations again, and thank you for this wonderful blog.
Posted by: Geral | July 24, 2008 7:05 PM
Posting in a legendary thread.
Posted by: roger | July 24, 2008 7:05 PM
"Be cheerful! Jesus will take care of everything. Let us pay no attention to people who do not know what they are talking about. Let us trust in Jesus and our heavenly Mother and everything will work out well." padre pio
Posted by: Fledermaus | July 24, 2008 7:06 PM
It is evil--archetypally evil--to desecrate the Eucharist. It's the sort of stuff archetypal bad guys in the movies do.
That would be the most BORING.MOVIE.EVAH. Um, well done PZ. As a former Gopher I will even forgive you for the 3rd rate university crack.
Posted by: CanuckRob | July 24, 2008 7:07 PM
Well said PZ. Thoughtful, accurate, uplifting and disparaging all at the same time. The last paragraph was perfect.
Posted by: jcmacc | July 24, 2008 7:07 PM
#1084:
"If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!"
Err...just to deny your truth : tell that to the unlucky individuals that contracted HIV via blood transfusion for the only "sin" of being in an accident or requiring transfusions in surgery.
I'd also add i.v. drug abuse as another source of the infection that doesn't have anything to do with being sexually chaste or not.
But, please carry on......
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 7:07 PM
TG:
I don't think you're a real scientist. In fact, I'm pretty sure that you're lying about it. No real scientist would pretend to be a real scientist, so you must be a liar.
Posted by: me | July 24, 2008 7:08 PM
A reputable scientist documents his experiments so others can repeat and verify them. I encourage you and everyone to test these results.Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 7:09 PM
"Apparently they're an object of worship for many of your acolytes!"
Posted by: John Lewandowski
John Lewandowski, a believer in magical crackers thinks atheists worship condoms! HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHA!!! Too Funny!
Talk about a warped sense of reality! HAHAHAHAHA!!
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 7:09 PM
I wish. Alas, if Donohue has his way PZ may have a fight on his hands.
Did you talk with the University president before going ahead with this, PZ?
Posted by: Becca | July 24, 2008 7:10 PM
Well done, PZ. One more reason why you're one of my heroes.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 7:11 PM
@1173 - I don't think PZ was doing an experiment on the stale cracker. He was just throwing out some trash.
Posted by: Lanfranc | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
Like a few others, I'd also be interested in which particular "Catholic nation" is is that is supposed to have "[slaughtered] its non-Christian citizenry" 70 years ago. Perhaps Dr Myers could expand on this issue a bit more?
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
Serious question: Why do so many of you assume that we Catholics were NOT outraged by the sexual abuse scandal?
The sexual abuse of children is extremely evil. The Catholic Church must continue to work to put an end to these atrocities committed by supposed men of God, and do whatever it can to help the victims.
Of course, for you guys, the only way that the Church can possibly atone is for every single bishop and priest to be thrown in jail and for the Vatican to be burned to the ground.
In fact, I bet that just reading that last sentence turned a number of you on sexually.
Posted by: delosgatos | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
Tyler @1103 - perfect retort!
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
Wait... the Virgin Mother shoots fruit of of her what, now?
Posted by: ChrisKG | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
P Zus Christ!?!?
How could the holy symbol of Ray Comfort be left to rot in a pile of garbage with an enriched iron (obviously intelligently designed) cracker? The mistreatment of the banana will definitely spark the ire of the Way of The Master Ministries ©®tm. Since we all know the cracker was simply a red herring to the real desecration, the peeled and discarded proof of God! The banana! Where are the monkey minions to defend this sacrilege? I will "prey" on you...err...I mean I will pray for you...
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
Thank you PZ! Very well done.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 24, 2008 7:13 PM
I just woke up and logged on. What'd I miss?
Oh crap. Fine, I'll start from the start and join you all in a few hours.
Posted by: Ticktockman | July 24, 2008 7:14 PM
I know this won't be the last word in the thread -- far from it! -- but I have to say, as I'm on my way out, this has been a really great desecration. Thanks, ya'll.
-TTm
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 7:15 PM
TonyT said: "John Lewandowski, a believer in magical crackers thinks atheists worship condoms! HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHA!!! Too Funny!"
Thanks, I thought it was funny, too.
Posted by: Rienk | July 24, 2008 7:15 PM
Pasta Desecration Spurs Outrage
MORRIS, MN -- A University of Central Florida alumni, upset religious groups hold Pastafarian services on public campuses, has opened an Italian restaurant serving mainly spaghetti, a nutritious meal so sacred to Pastafarians they call it the Holiness of His Noodly Appendage. According to Adam Susan of the Flying Spaghetti Monsterism Defamation League the actions of the UCF alumni should be seen as a hate crime. "To open a restaurant selling the Holy Body of our Creator to infidels equals kidnapping and extortion," he replied by e-mail. "It shows a lack of respect for our Holiest of all religions."
Spurring even more outrage, Paul Zachary Myers, a professor at the University of Minnesota Morris, has released pictures of him, an atheist, trashing a bowl of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's Noodly Appendages. Myers announced his intention earlier on his blog, sparking a flood of e-mails, including death threats, from both outraged and concerned Pastafarians. Myers does not see the blasphemy in his actions. He claims "it's just a macaroni-damned serving of noodles!"
Posted by: palmira | July 24, 2008 7:16 PM
In the 1298 alleged desecration of an host all the jewish population of Röttingen was burned at the stake. Severe persecutions followed in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria. A German nobleman by the name of Rindfleisch (he was called the Judenschlächter) gathered a small army and began to slaughter Jews from city to city. In about six months he burned and massacred an estimated 100,000 Jews in 140 communities including Wurzburg, Ratisbon, Nuremberg, Augsburg, Heilbronn and Rottingen.
There's this book, «» is quite good explaining the catholic reactions we are all witnessing:
«the host desecration myth grew out of Christian insecurities surrounding the elaboration of the Christian doctrine of transubstantiation, whereby the body and blood of Christ is truly, physically present in the guise of the consecrated sacramental bread and wine.»
These insecurities also explained the persecution by the Catholic Church of atomism and all attempts to explain things like «color», «smell» or flavour that belonged to the theological domain, that pertained to the «miracle» of the eucharist
Posted by: Libraryguy | July 24, 2008 7:16 PM
At#107: Um.. that should be "me damn it..." Also do acolytes of PZ get to wear squid-themed outfits?
Posted by: Totus Tuus | July 24, 2008 7:17 PM
+JMJ+ +AMDG+
I am very saddened to hear of Dr. Myers' desecration of the Body of Christ. I forgive Dr. Myers and the people who stole the Body of Christ for him for what they have done, and I will pray that God have mercy on their souls.
I offered to send Dr. Myers a self-addressed stamped envelope that he could use to send me the consecrated hosts, and I would have placed them in my college's tabernacle, but I guess my e-mail reached him too late.
As a college student who hopes to someday serve God and His Church as a priest, the Eucharist holds a very dear place in my heart, and I will pray that all of you will someday share the great gift we are given in the Eucharist.
Posted by: Neural Transmissions | July 24, 2008 7:17 PM
The person that you should really feel sorry for is Bruininks. Think of the head ache that he has to put up with now.
Posted by: Nerdcore Steve | July 24, 2008 7:18 PM
Well done sir
Posted by: God | July 24, 2008 7:18 PM
John Lewandowski, she'd be alive if it wern't for you.
Posted by: Arnaud | July 24, 2008 7:19 PM
Lanfranc @ 1178, could it be the one whose soldiers sported a belt buckle engraved with "Gott Mitt Uns"?
Posted by: me | July 24, 2008 7:19 PM
TG seems to believe he was. If he doesn't trust PZ, then he should test it himself.Posted by: Katie | July 24, 2008 7:20 PM
So if this so called "cracker" isn't important then why are all you non catholics so hell bent on desecrating the Eucharist if it's just a "cracker"?
You know what's funny.. even the demonic witch craft anti priest's know how powerful this "cracker" is.
Maybe you should do your research about laws in some states about religious persecution!
[I'll have my church pray for all of your souls that one day you will realize that it isn't just a "cracker".]
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
Luke 23:34
Posted by: John Kusters | July 24, 2008 7:21 PM
Cherl Hurley @ #1056
Jesus pour your precious blood upon all those involved Amen!
Ew, gross! It's like something out of a horror flick! Sorry, I'm not into blood-play.
Posted by: palmira | July 24, 2008 7:22 PM
Missing a link in comment # 1188
Gentile Tales: The Narrative Assault on Late Medieval Jews
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 7:22 PM
John RE: post #1179
Actions speak louder than words, Catholics may have expressed outrage verbally, but these pedophiles were not removed from the church. They were sent to a different churches to continue on spreading the word of God.
Even if some may have been removed from the church, they should have been sent to PRISON. IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO MOLEST AND RAPE CHILDREN. In case your church is unaware of that.
Posted by: CGK | July 24, 2008 7:22 PM
It is quite a shame that really, all anyone against the Catholic church has to talk about is the fact that they are against it. It doesn't really make for any exciting discussions.
I would also agree that the fact that these things are making news is proof that people are bored.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 7:23 PM
me@1195 Maybe TG will run off and try to figure out how to run some tests. It'll keep him occupied for awhile. Although, he'll probably have to finish high school first.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 7:23 PM
I doubt that was a consecrated Eucharist. You can buy the wafers in bulk online unconsecrated. What a hoax.
Posted by: Hoax | July 24, 2008 6:49 PM
___________________
Please refer to post #577
Posted by: delosgatos | July 24, 2008 7:24 PM
Good thing you included the "God Delusion," a symbol of your own beliefs, PZ. It might save your ass. What you did isn't a lone attack on Catholicism, but on holding anything sacred in an abstract sense.
I'm not sure any ass needed saving here, but this is a good point - it clearly demonstrated PZ wasn't engaging in hate speech, just expressing his opinion on revering objects.
Posted by: Sherry | July 24, 2008 7:25 PM
I've been tossing Gideon Bibles in the trash for a long time now. Even taught my kids to do the same. It brings me a tiny bit of satisfaction to rid one hotel room, for a small amount of time, of superstition.
Posted by: Matt | July 24, 2008 7:25 PM
Thank you for being so brave. I would not have done this, but I'm glad someone is willing to. I'm glad someone is willing to stand up to ridiculousness and say "No, that's just stupid."
My hopes for your continued success :)
Posted by: Evolving Squid | July 24, 2008 7:26 PM
Have you ever considered what a true fatass the cracker-jesus must be? Consider the mass of a single cracker... I don't have one, but there's probably not a lot to it, so let's say 0.1 g.
Now, there are about a billion Catholics in the world, but let's say only about 1/3 actually practice regularly and have communion 20 out of 52 weeks of the year.
That's about 6.7 billion little cracker-jesi each year. 670 megagrams... 670 tonnes of Jesus. Last year. Over the last 50 years, an eyeball estimate says that Catholics have chewed up and shat out well over 20000 tonnes of Jewish messiah.
Kinda puts it all in perspective.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 7:27 PM
Because you're still Catholic.
Posted by: Lanfranc | July 24, 2008 7:27 PM
Arnaud #1194: I'd say that for a country to be considered Catholic, a significant majority of its citizens ought to actually be Catholics. This has not been the case for for Germany since the Reformation.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 7:28 PM
He was another fraud.Posted by: mothwentbad | July 24, 2008 7:28 PM
Stimpson -
"Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???"
It's not SACRED so much as it is tautological. You should read about it sometime.
Posted by: chuckgoecke | July 24, 2008 7:28 PM
I'll just add my 2 cents. Great post PZ. You are my hero!
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 7:29 PM
John Lewandowski wrote:
So, tell us what you did to express that outrage? I didn't see much of it.
Posted by: El Herring | July 24, 2008 7:30 PM
Regardless of anything else, this is the bottom line:
Any organisation that protects child molesters within its ranks as a matter of documented policy deserves absolutely no respect regardless of anyone's faith, and should be brought crashing down and destroyed by any means possible, and the perpetrators and protectors of these crimes should be brought to justice with all the weight of international law.
End of argument.
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 7:31 PM
RE: post #1213
Well put El Herring.
Posted by: Martin Richer | July 24, 2008 7:32 PM
Did I get the first post? Awwww, dammit.
You GO, son.
I was a bad boy in 3rd grade, got tossed from public school, parents stuck me in a Catholic school, downtown Detroit, early 1960s. On my third day with the nuns, one of them cracked me across the knuckles with a metal edged wooden ruler, broke on knuckle and one finger. My crime? I was writing with my left hand, the only way I'd been taught and the only way I knew how. Parents took me out, tried to have her charged (pop was a Detroit cop), but were blocked by the Diocese. Lovely organization, that Catholic Church.
I had hoped for an avenging Hero, and now, 40 years later, here he be!
MAKE SURE YOU TAKE OUT THAT TRASH WITHIN 3 DAYS.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 7:32 PM
Dinkim @ #1207 and the Great Denier John Lewandowski
Exactly! Because you all do absolutely nothing about the number of priests that are hiding out in Rome. You just bow your heads in the sand and pray. You ignore all of the gross injustice that has been perpetrated on the victims and call them "liars out for money." Anybody that does try to raise a cry about it gets shouted down. I met the man who started the support group for people abused by priests. He certainly does not have the support of the majority of catholics.
Posted by: dave | July 24, 2008 7:32 PM
Wow- up to 1179 posts. With many repeats. 1179 Atheist /
1 billion Catholics not even counting Christians and other religions. Man, you guys have a lot of campaigning to do if you want PZ to publish a book. And a book about what? you losers and your posts. Ha,ha,ha,ha! better start a kitty folks, he's going to need money for heat this winter. Think about it- no matter who gets involved, this country is a whore for the almighty dollar. Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance he'll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God than those who don't. How is he going to keep his classes filled? The college is going to pay this guy to teach a handful of students. Even if he doesn't get canned for this, he'll be gone by next summer- Pure economics folks- and who will laugh then? I know one person- ME
Posted by: The Country Shrink | July 24, 2008 7:32 PM
Ah yes... These comments illustrate my points very nicely.
Some Psychological Aspects of Atheism--Part II
Posted by: goddidn't | July 24, 2008 7:32 PM
"Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???"
Evolution is questioned all the time and yet the evidence continues to support the theory.
Posted by: waldteufel | July 24, 2008 7:33 PM
Lanfranc #1178 -- Germany. A Christian (and heavily Catholic} nation that spawned the NAZI party and fed upon centuries of Christian anti-Semitic fervor to commit the Holocaust.
By 1939, after annexing the Sudetenland and Austria, Germany was about 45% Catholic.
Don't forget the German army belt buckles: "Gott mit Uns".
Posted by: llewelly | July 24, 2008 7:33 PM
John Lewandowski , #1179:
I think most people here know that average Catholics were as outraged as anyone. That is not the problem. The problem is that the pope, (2 popes, in fact), many archbishops and hundreds of other powerful Catholic authorities worked for decades to keep secret the sexual abuse committed by priests and other Catholic authority figures. Your leaders protected child-rapists for decades - and they continue to do so. That is why people are angry.
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 7:34 PM
Wow, the public school system has really gone down the tubes! I've read these comments and my overwhelming impression is that you "Myers Groupies" simply can't think logically. Your arguments are like: "All dogs are canines. A pug is a dog. Therefore, a pug is a vegetable." You folks just don't know how to determine the validity or invalidity of premises and discern logical or illogical conclusions. If your moronic thinking is representative of society's at large, then I'm scared; one simply can't reason with a blockhead. I think we've really got to revamp the entire public school system. You people are so blinded by your own bigotry against Catholics that you can't even recognize that you're bigots. I feel like I'm arguing with turnips (uh, talking turnips, that is). Oh, well. I'm hoping the president of Myers' college will see the light and kick his adolescent intolerant ass out the door. Woo hoo!!!!
Posted by: CR | July 24, 2008 7:34 PM
RE: post 1207
Would you leave the country if the president molested somebody?
Judging an entire organization based on its bad apples is incredibly poor. The Catholics have the unique ability to produce saints, which many seem to have forgotten. Were Mother Theresa, Padre Pio, and Cardinal Neumann all just confused cracker worshippers?
Say whatever you like, the outstnding contributions of these individuals to humanity stand for themselves.
Posted by: Steve P | July 24, 2008 7:34 PM
"It seems a whole lot more like Paul is being a demagogue for his own personal attention. "
And immediately after this statement you post a URL to your blog.
Fucking tool.
Posted by: Jim | July 24, 2008 7:34 PM
Very nicely done. Thank you, PZ.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 7:35 PM
The priest-on-child scandals should be a pretty big red flag to show that chastity is not a reasonable thing to expect from anyone.
Abstinence-only is an obsolete idea and is not something that you can reasonably expect large groups of people to obey. It's an ideological dead-end and people are dying because of it's perpetuation.
People like YOU John Lewandowski, contribute to the idea that sex before marriage is a sin, people are dying because of it! Do you rather they wear a condom or get HIV? If you expect them to be abstinent then you have blood on your hands.
Reality: Many Catholics fornicate and commit adultery like many non-catholics do.
Posted by: DoctorE | July 24, 2008 7:36 PM
Sweet, so fargin sweet :)
Thanks!
Posted by: SDG | July 24, 2008 7:36 PM
Norman Doering @#1212:
Shows what you know.
It just so happens that for years and years before the scandal hit the public media in a big way, conservative Catholic groups had been tirelessly trying to bring the matter to light. Publications like The Wanderer and other traditionalist Catholic outlets were going after negligent bishops and other contributing problems.
Posted by: Michael X | July 24, 2008 7:36 PM
Sandi, as someone who is obviously well educated, would be so kind as to give examples for your claims instead of simply asserting them? It helps my slow thinking process.
Posted by: Bubba Sixpack | July 24, 2008 7:37 PM
These religious-right loons almost make fundie muslim loons look normal. I didn't realize before how many muslim-like Christian wackos there were in the U.S.
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | July 24, 2008 7:37 PM
"I won't mince words. Myers is an evil man. And as evil men, particularly evil intellectuals, tend to be, he is also a mad man as are most of his acolytes and followers."
Can I be an acolyte?
"Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!"
Here's the flaw: You live, wish, and hope in an imperfect world, and no amount of wishing and hoping will make it perfect. When you attain perfection you will be able to demand it of others. Until then, understand the world is not perfect, and you are powerless to change that.
Posted by: Murky | July 24, 2008 7:38 PM
Nice going PZ
I think the whole cracker thing is a bit silly, but it should be considered a matter of free speech and that you shouldn't get fired for it. I do wonder what the more liberal Catholics think of it. Wasn't JFK a Catholic?
Posted by: CalGeorge | July 24, 2008 7:38 PM
The motto of the Catholic religion should be:
Have cracker, will con.
Some con artist priest waves his hands over a mass-produced cracker and it suddenly becomes special.
Never ceases to amaze me that people continue to fall for that kind of crap.
Posted by: Angie | July 24, 2008 7:39 PM
"In fact, I bet that just reading that last sentence turned a number of you on sexually." - John Lewandowski.
What an odd thing to say. However, I find people often ascribe thoughts to others that occur naturally to themsleves. They're usually wrong, but it's a good indicator of who they are and what they're about.
Posted by: Andrew | July 24, 2008 7:39 PM
Again, you're just an asshole. It's a shame that people on either side of the "argument" are overreacting over someone like you, it's counterproductive.
Posted by: Elvee Kaye | July 24, 2008 7:39 PM
Dude, don't you know those things come back to life?? Seriously, at the End of the Age, there will be a great Zombie Cracker Invasion, when all the offended crackers rise up in vengeance on their teeny little legs and demand the brains of their tormentors!
XD
Okay, not really, but it makes for an interesting mental image, no? I am glad you threw in a banana. I consider it a slam against Ray Comfort, the evangelist who believes the banana to be evidence of God's existence because it is so perfectly designed for humans to eat. Take THAT, Intelligent Design!
Posted by: Lanfranc | July 24, 2008 7:39 PM
Waldteufel 1220: I'm curious: Have you, or others here, ever heard of the 1937 papal encyclical Mit brennender Sorge?
Wiki link, for your convenience.
Posted by: Julie | July 24, 2008 7:40 PM
How dare you do that to Jesus? I cannot believe you can do that and get away with it. It is not some cracker. I truly pray for your soul and your conversion because Satan is in you right now.
Posted by: Maria | July 24, 2008 7:41 PM
Please join me in praying for this Professor and his family and all those posting here who do not believe, do not adore, and do not love God. These people esp. this Professor need our prayers. They do not know realize what they are doing!!
I especially recommend praying the rosary for this Professor's conversion.
****************************************************
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love you. I ask forgiveness for those who do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore you profoundly. I offer you the most precious body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which he is offended. Through the infinite merits of his most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners.
O my Jesus, I offer all my personal sacrifices, pains and suffers, and penances up for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Posted by: raresilk | July 24, 2008 7:41 PM
love it, elegant.
When you were merely "holding the host hostage," it was so clear and self-evident to the Christians that it was the pure and transubstantiated body of Christ, in person. And you were hurting it, or at least potentially hurting it, and stood to be punished in the hottest circles of hell. They insisted on this as an article of faith, and were terribly offended when you said "it's just a cracker."
But then, when you actually "killed the host," by sticking an iron nail through it, and the host didn't bleed, or cry out, or show any signs of being a god's body, and when no heavenly punishment came down upon you for doing so, the Christians took all of that back. THEY, in fact, utterly adopted YOUR previous position that "it's just a cracker," and started challenging you to prove that "the host was consecrated" -- pretending that YOU were the one who were seeking to prove that the body of THEIR god existed in it.
This high level of logical fallacy and inconsistency should disgust anybody with a functioning brain cell, Christian or non-Christian. This is a classic example of the reason why religion simply does not make sense.
People who are religious either should stop being religious, or should stop pretending that it makes sense. There is no rational argument for it. They simply should admit "I have carved out a certain area of my life where I choose superstition and medieval beliefs over everything that reason tells me, and I'm going to do that no matter what my senses or my mind demonstrates to me, because it makes me feel good." Then maybe we could all stop arguing. Some people would give up their religious beliefs once they recognized that fact. Others would not because many people like to do or believe irrational things. But it would be better than the religious people constantly trying to act like they make sense.
Posted by: DoctorE | July 24, 2008 7:41 PM
Pure genius, i worship you :)
Posted by: goddidn't | July 24, 2008 7:41 PM
Katie said-[I'll have my church pray for all of your souls that one day you will realize that it isn't just a "cracker".]
Save your doing nothing for someone else. We do not need to have non-action directed toward us.
And, Katie, have you been hanging out with "Anti-Priests"? I'm an Anti-Priest in that I do not accept the B.S. spewing from their mouths and I am not feeling the power of the Cracker.
You trivialize the word Persecution
Posted by: me | July 24, 2008 7:42 PM
Wow, the
public school systemCatholic Church has really gone down the tubes! I've read these comments and my overwhelming impression is that you"Myers Groupies""Catholics" simply can't think logically. Your arguments are like:"All dogs are canines. A pug is a dog. Therefore, a pug is a vegetable.""A cracker is a living corpse, yet it isn't."Posted by: James | July 24, 2008 7:42 PM
Catholics are not the only ones who believe in sex before marriage. It is also promoted and practiced by Jews, Islamics, and members of the Eastern Orthodox church (who believe in celibate clerics as well).
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 7:43 PM
RE: Sandi post#1222 , and other Christians who have come here to rant and rave.
I find it ironic that we are not on a Catholic site giving catholics lectures about why Atheism is the right choice.... Yet, Christians seem to show up here left and right yelling what bigots atheists are. Apparently Sandi has been taking Scientology notes.. Attack, never defend.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 7:43 PM
And yet Catholics committed murder. Lots of murder.
Catholic officials in Africa have lied and claimed that condoms do not work to prevent AIDS. They have also claimed that condoms were deliberately infected with the virus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7014335.stm
Were you simply unaware of this? Do you agree that the above claims by the Archbishop of Mozambique are indeed despicable lies, or do you defend them?
Vows of chastity fail far more frequently. Or do you oh-so-conveniently forget all of the child-rapers in your Church?
Not to mention the Popes, cardinals, archbishops, and priests with children and mistresses, historically.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 7:44 PM
#1223
What is this, Civ V?
No shit. It's kind of by definition, you know?
Is that a serious attempt at an analogy, especially post-Clinton? Don't remember that getting hushed up, and that was fully consensual.
Posted by: Erwin Blonk | July 24, 2008 7:44 PM
#1217
So it is about who has the most power?
Posted by: Totus Tuus | July 24, 2008 7:44 PM
+JMJ+ +AMDG+
Maria,
I will join you in praying the Rosary tonight for Dr Myers, his family, and the commenters on this blog. I suggest the Sorrowful Mysteries be prayed tonight.
Posted by: daniel | July 24, 2008 7:44 PM
# 1217 that is exactly what is going to happen
Posted by: echidna | July 24, 2008 7:45 PM
John@1179:
Here is why I think Catholics are not outraged. World Youth Day organiser Bishop Anthony Fisher made it quite clear that child abuse is a non-issue for the Catholic Church, shortly before the arrival of the Pope.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/16/2305856.htm
It was a comment that revealed how totally crass and insensitive the Church hierarchy is. Ordinary members of the Church need to realize that by remaining part of the church, they are condoning this behaviour.
Would a just God insist that salvation depends on supporting an organization that protects child abusers? The same abuse of authority that leads to child abuse by church leaders is also used to keep their support base, on threat of eternal punishment otherwise.
Don't you understand that the church lost a lot of support in Europe because after world war II, it became obvious that the church that supported Hitler could not be considered an instrument of God. The power of the RC church more or less vanished overnight.
As evidence, consider the current birthrate of Spain and Italy.
Posted by: Nibien | July 24, 2008 7:45 PM
Every time I read one of the religious' posts I feel warm and fuzzy inside just by knowing how intellectually superior I am to them.
Yay.
Posted by: Amanda | July 24, 2008 7:46 PM
You are truly an EVIL man and I pray for your soul. Harming the holy Eucharist and Jesus' body is the most terrible thing one can do and you did it. I pray for your conversion.
Posted by: goddidn't | July 24, 2008 7:46 PM
Sandi said -"I'm hoping the president of Myers' college will see the light and kick his adolescent intolerant ass out the door. Woo hoo!!!!"
Woo hoo!!!!? Sounds like something an adolescent might type.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 7:46 PM
James @ 1244
I also believe in sex before marriage. I have a lot of monogamous before marriage sex. Fornication is a wonderful, enjoyable thing! You should try it sometime. You'd be a lot less uptight.
Posted by: Arnaud | July 24, 2008 7:46 PM
Cathy, trust me, the world would definitely NOT be perfect either if everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage! Far from it...
Lanfranc, you'll have to excuse me, some time ago I gave up trying to distinguish between all the different flavours of loons...
Posted by: DingoDave | July 24, 2008 7:47 PM
TG asked:
"Here's a better one. How did he get that nail through the "cracker' without it fragmenting? The communion hots (sic) are very brittle as anyone familiar with them knows."
Stale ones aren't. Or have you never encountered a stale cracker during the course of what must have been your very sheltered life? Now that I think about it, I've got half a box of stale crackers sitting in my kitchen pantry as we speak. Damn, I knew there was something that I forgot to throw out in the trash this week. Thanks for reminding me. You goddists really are an unimaginative lot, aren't you?
(Hat tip to Patricia, for introducing me to the term 'goddist' by the way.)
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 7:47 PM
Erwin- yes it is- obviously you are still going to school. Watch and learn grasshopper, watch and learn. There is no room in the world for idealist
Posted by: E.S.Cragg | July 24, 2008 7:48 PM
#1196 - Katie - "So if this so called "cracker" isn't important then why are all you non Catholics so hell bent on desecrating the Eucharist if it's just a "cracker"?"
Morbid curiosity at the train-wreck that is your (Catholic) response to this completely pointless and irrelevant act.
Think of it as philosophical rubbernecking.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 7:48 PM
I don't. I know catholics who were outraged enough to leave the church. I don't know about other Atheists in these blogs, but what bothers me are the catholic who came here and minimized what the scandal. I expected to see one of them say something along the lines of " The victims shouldn't have been selfish and damaged the church the way they did". I have actually seen a few Catholics say such evil things.
Since I suspect you are Jack from yesterday, I ask the same question...."What do you think is an appropriate punishment for a pedophile?" He vanished after I asked that question, maybe you will too. I hope.
No, just the guilty ones.
Here's a mindfuck for ya....If the things you were thinking and writing of brought up the visual of sexual acts in your mind, guess who is the one who had a sexual reaction because of these words?
BAM
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 7:48 PM
Well, gotta give the catholic church some credit.
It took them about 400 years for apologizing for Galileo and now it took them less than a century to apologize for the Pedophile-priests. Keep up the good work! My grandchildren may actually hear some apologies from the Pope about AIDS in Africa in their lifetime.
Posted by: Steven Mooney | July 24, 2008 7:49 PM
Good job, PZ. Hooray for desecration!
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 7:49 PM
Oh, that was totally photoshopped. You wouldn't dare desecrate The God Delusion.
Posted by: gwrak | July 24, 2008 7:49 PM
Thank you, PZ, that was beautiful.
Posted by: Psycho Atheist | July 24, 2008 7:50 PM
For all of the posters that are assuming the atrocities 70 years ago mentioned by PZ are in reference to the Germans, you might want to check out the widespread extermination of Jews and Gypsies by Croatia (a Catholic country) between 1941 and 1945).
Posted by: Inquisitor | July 24, 2008 7:50 PM
You deserve to die for this. You are lucky that Catholicism, unlike Islam, is not a violent religion. Nonetheless, watch your back.
Posted by: Steve P. | July 24, 2008 7:51 PM
Oh no! Another Steve P! Damn my generic name to hades!
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | July 24, 2008 7:51 PM
"Reality: Many Catholics fornicate and commit adultery like many non-catholics do.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 7:35 PM "
Totally true! and according to the Guttmacher Institute's surveys http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3422602.html
27% of women who get abortions are Catholic.
Additionally, 71% of women who have had an abortion identify themselves as religious (27% Catholic, 43% Protestant, 8% other religion). Only 22% of abortions were for women who have NO religion.
So what's up with all those religious people?
Posted by: toothy | July 24, 2008 7:51 PM
Wow, Pz
Your douchocity factor just topped the charts!
Posted by: Kevin DeGraaf | July 24, 2008 7:52 PM
Amanda (#1253),
You must be a special kind of idiot, utterly disconnected from reality, to think that harming a cracker is "the most terrible thing one can do".
How would you compare PZ's cracker abuse with, say, the rape