…and this is a 
It is finished.
I wonder how many of our Catholic friends have heard of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215? This is the event where many of their important dogmas were codified, including the ideas of Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus, that the Eucharist was the sacrament that only properly ordained priests of the Catholic church could give, and that the Jews were a pariah people, who could hold no public office, had to pay a special Jew tax for their right to exist, and were required to wear special clothing to distinguish them from Christians. The yellow badge marking the Juden was not an invention of the Nazis, but a decree by faithful Catholics in the Middle Ages. That's an interesting juxtaposition, that a symbol of Christian exceptionalism was formalized at the same time that they formally decreed the Jews to be inferior, and a target of hatred.
That combination was useful, too. Declare something cheap, disposable, and common to be imbued with magic by the words of a priest, and the trivial becomes a powerful token to inflame the mob — why, all you have to do is declare a bit of bread to be the most powerful and desirable object in the world, and even if it isn't, you can pretend that the evil other is scheming to deprive the faithful of it. Now you could invent stories of Jews and witches taking the communion host to torture, to make Jesus suffer even more, and good Catholics would of course rise in horror to defend their salvation. None of the stories were true, of course — Jews and infidels see no power at all in those little crackers, and the idea that they were obsessing over obtaining a non-sacred, powerless, pointless relic is ludicrous — but heck, it's a cheap excuse to make accusations illustrated by cheesy woodcuts of hook-nosed Jews hammering nails into communion wafers and lurid tales of blood-spurting crackers and hosts that pulsed like and beating heart, and thereby providing a pretext to encourage massacres.
The first recorded accusation was made in 1243 at Berlitz, near Berlin. As a consequence all the Jews of Berlitz were burned on the spot, which was subsequently called Judenberg. Another famous case that took place in 1290, in Paris, was commemorated in the Church of the Rue des Billettes and in a local confraternity. In 1370 in Brussels, the charge of host desecration, long celebrated in a special fest and depicted in artistic relics in the Church of St. Gudule, led to the extermination of the Jews of the city. The case of 1337, at Deggendorf, still celebrated locally as "Deggendorf Gnad", led to a series of massacres across the region. In 1510, at Knoblauch, near Berlin, 38 Jews were executed and more expelled from Brandenburg. The alleged host desecration in 1410, at Segovia, was said to have brought about an earthquake, and as a result, the local synagogue was confiscated and leading Jews were executed; the event continues to be celebrated as a local feast of Corpus Christi. Similar accusations, resulting in extensive persecution of Jews, were brought forward in 1294, at Laa, Austria; 1298, at Röttingen, near Würzburg, and at Korneuburg, near Vienna; 1299, at Ratisbon; 1306, at St. Pölten; 1325, at Cracow; 1330, at Güstrow; 1338, at Pulkau; 1388, at Prague; 1399, at Posen; 1401, at Glogau; 1420, at Ems; 1453, at Breslau; 1478, at Passau; 1492, at Sternberg, in Mecklenburg-Schwerin; 1514, at Mittelberg, in Alsace; 1558, at Sochaczew, in Poland. The last Jew burned for stealing a host died in 1631, according to Jacques Basnage, quoting from Manasseh b. Israel. Casimir IV. of Poland (1447).
That is the true power of the cracker, this silly symbol of superstition. Fortunately, Catholicism has mellowed with age — the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry was a whole 70 years ago, after all — but the sentiment still lingers. Catholicism has been actively poisoning the minds of its practitioners with the most amazing bullshit for years, and until recently, I had no idea that a significant number of people actually believed this nonsense, or that the hatred was still simmering there, waiting for an opportunity to rise up in misplaced defense of absurdity.
All of the regular readers have seen it — thousands of mindless comments by Catholics, demanding that no harm come to a cracker. My email is melting down with swarms of insults, threats, pleas, and promises of prayers because I
Mark Sutton is representative of the majority of my email. No threats, at least, but instead he simply takes for granted an astonishing piece of insanity.
Professor Myers,
I was saddened to hear of your plans to harm our Lord Jesus Christ.
It obviously isn't the first time and it won't be the last.
I know you do not believe, but what if it truly is Jesus that you are attempting to hurt?
You are in my prayers.
You would not believe how many people are writing to me, insisting that these horrible little crackers (they look like flattened bits of styrofoam) are literally pieces of their god, and that this omnipotent being who created the universe can actually be seriously harmed by some third-rate liberal intellectual at a third-rate university (the diminution of my vast powers is also a common theme).
Jim Nicholson cranks up the crazy even more. Not many accused me of being a freemason — I've got lots that call me a Jew, which is illuminating given the history of this issue — and I cringe at the thought of a circumcised heart. But yeah, this kind of angry rant is fairly common, too.
You must be the devil himself as even he knows the power in the Holy Eucharist (don't you dare disparage the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ by calling Him Who died for you a cracker!). You must be a freemason, or just a very sick man who needs healing and believe me, I will pray for your conversion. Pray you live to see that day so you can ask Him to forgive you and your uncircumcised heart. Just the mere thought of desecrating the Holy Eucharist is enough to get one into hell, but, maybe that is, for now, the horrible place you are aiming for. I dare you to read about Our Lady of Fatima and the accounts of hell as the three children saw, then, maybe you will change you sick mind. God forgive you. However, it was great that you got many people praying for your conversion since you showed the world how sick you are, and maybe God will convert your hard heart. Pity you. From a lay evangelist who prays for you and the rest of this sick world of secular humanists.
Another common theme has been the attempt to turn away the desecration of a Catholic symbol into the desecration of an Islamic symbol. Obviously, it's not desecration they find disagreeable — it's the idea that someone would offend their weird sectarian sensibilities. Here's one from Jack Isaacks that fits the mold.
Dear Professor Meyers,
If you REALLY want to do a courageous, revolutionary act, defecate publicly on a copy of the Quran.
Or do you have the cojones?
Christians won't attack you for desecrating a host, but will those wonderful cuddly peace-loving Muslims be as forbearing if you used their book for a toilet?
Well, how brave are you?
Yeah, right. Catholics won't attack me, but Muslims will. Never mind that the Catholic League demands that I be fired, thousands of Catholics write to me demanding I be kicked out of the university immediately, and that they send me death threats, both the explicit kind and the vaguely menacing kind. Let's not forget Webster Cook, who started this all by simply walking back to his seat with a cracker, and now faces censure and possible expulsion from his university. Oh, those Catholics sure are forbearing and tolerant.
And since I mentioned yesterday that I was taking my oldest son to the movies, these good Catholics have leapt to the opportunity. Since I'm not demonstrating any fear over their threats against me, well hey, let's try a new target! KJ Atkins of Bellarmine University thinks cowardly warnings against my family might be effective.
You fool, the vengeance for your sacrilege will not be . exhausted against you, but it will be carried out on your child. Wait and see.
Oh, I'm sorry, KJ. I'm only impressed by significant material concerns, and yours and other slanders against my family (I'm looking at you, Miki Tracy, the despicable person who thinks making up lies about my father might be persuasive) are not going to convince me of anything other than that religion breeds the most disgustingly vile haters in our country, and that Catholicism fits right in with the rest. I will note, however, that since Bill Donohue tried to get CAIR to join him in his crusade, I have gotten no email from outraged Muslims, over a span of time in which I've received thousands of Catholic hate mail messages.
If you want to see the deep danger of religion, you have to read this comment from Isaac.
As a Christian it is an insult for anyone to call my beliefs stupid shit. I have respected every religion and every idea for years.
Ah, what a beautiful illustration of the complete open mind — utterly undiscriminating, lacking any criteria for acceptance, simply blissfully and uncritically according every idea his full respect. Although, of course, it's also a lie: Isaac does not regard every idea as equally deserving, since he clearly considers the atheist idea that the sacraments of his faith are empty foolishness to be an outrage. Rather, what he loves is the idea that everyone else must respect his beliefs, no matter what they are, and that any disagreement is an insult. This is exactly the kind of uncritical, unskeptical, nonjudgmental idiocy all religions seek to promulgate, because they all know that if we tore off the blinders of tradition and artificiality and mindless etiquette, we'd see right through their lies. Respect every idea! Especially mine! And if you find the idea that this cracker is a god stupid, why, you must be disrespectful and no gentleman!
For even deeper inanity, let's not forget the Catholic blogs! We're talking some serious derangement there: look at Mark Shea's reaction.
I won't mince words. Myers is an evil man. And as evil men, particularly evil intellectuals, tend to be, he is also a mad man as are most of his acolytes and followers.
Myers and Co. are enmeshed in these lies because they have chosen evil. It is evil--archetypally evil--to desecrate the Eucharist. It's the sort of stuff archetypal bad guys in the movies do. It's completely unnecessary gratuitous evil.
To the Mark Shea's of the world, I would say…it's just a cracker.
I think if I were truly evil, I would have to demand that all of my acolytes be celibate, but would turn a blind eye to any sexual depravities they might commit. If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I'd drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue. If I wanted to commit world-class evil, I'd undermine efforts at family planning by the poor, especially if I could simultaneously enable the spread of deadly diseases. And if I wanted to be so evil that I would commit a devastating crime against the whole of the human race, twisting the minds of children into ignorance and hatred, I would be promoting the indoctrination of religion in children's upbringing, and fomenting hatred against anyone who dared speak out in defiance.
I'm sorry to say that I only aspire to be a teeny-tiny bit evil, and my target is a handful of virtually inedible crackers in my possession. It's not much, and all I can say in my defense is…it's a start. A very small start. I'm going to need lots and lots of people to rise up and follow suit, subjecting old, dishonest institutions of hardened dogma to our chief weapon of ridicule and deris…our two weapons of ridicule, derision and laughter…no, three weapons of ridicule, derision, laughter, and skeptici…oh, never mind. You know what I mean. Get to work.
OK, time for the anticlimax. I know some of you have proposed intricate plans for how to do horrible things to these crackers, but I repeat…it's just a cracker. I wasn't going to make any major investment of time, money, or effort in treating these dabs of unpleasantness as they deserve, because all they deserve is casual disposal. However, inspired by an old woodcut of Jews stabbing the host, I thought of a simple, quick thing to do: I pierced it with a rusty nail (I hope Jesus's tetanus shots are up to date). And then I simply threw it in the trash, followed by the classic, decorative items of trash cans everywhere, old coffeegrounds and a banana peel. My apologies to those who hoped for more, but the worst I can do is show my unconcerned contempt.
By the way, I didn't want to single out just the cracker, so I nailed it to a few ripped-out pages from the Qur'an and The God Delusion. They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity's knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind.
Politics
Comments
Posted by: Maria | July 24, 2008 2:03 PM
May God have mercy on your soul.
Posted by: H.H. | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
It is done.
Posted by: FormerMilitary | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
Well done.
Posted by: Tucker | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
Well this is going to be epic.
Posted by: Anthony | July 24, 2008 2:06 PM
PZ: My gin and tonic will be hoisted up in your name tonight.
Posted by: JSorrell | July 24, 2008 2:08 PM
Well, if you thought the deluge of email was bad now! :)
Thanks for pointing out that nothing should be held sacred.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 24, 2008 2:08 PM
Requiescat in pace, Crustum Christi.
Posted by: Brian | July 24, 2008 2:09 PM
Well said PZ. Wish I could think of something more to add.
Brian
Posted by: Deepsix | July 24, 2008 2:09 PM
Let the games begin!!
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:09 PM
Hahah... I hope Seed's servers are ready for the influx of crazy that this post will bring.
Posted by: Mystic Olly | July 24, 2008 2:10 PM
And yet I fail to see the remains of last nights spaghetti bolognese. Do you cower in fear of His Noodley Appendage?
I think we should be told . . .
Posted by: AJ Milne | July 24, 2008 2:10 PM
Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Very nice. This did not disappoint.
A response to a post in a previous thread, carried forward (since, y'know, I'm sure this'll be going on for a bit, anyway)...
I've been thinking about this for awhile now. I originally agreed with those saying that PZ is needlessly provoking the religious, but their batshit crazy responses tell me it isn't so needless.
Yep. Or sorta. I'd never have gone as far as 'needlessly provoking', but I sure did see it as pretty trivial, initially.
And I still do. But only in the one sense. More precisely, I was never much for or agin' it, initially. I mean, as I understood it, it started out as a snarky (and, in context, entirely appropriately snarky) riposte to the sheer nuttiness of what happened at UCF anyway. I don't think any of us even figure he even meant it terribly seriously, at first. I mean, seriously, why would anyone bother, either way? And I think if he'd actually done it two weeks ago, my reaction woulda been: oh, okay... an odd thing to do... and... ummm... why, seriously? I'm still trying to wrap my head 'round the fact that the folk taking Donohue's bait haven't thought about that, more. I mean honestly, do you really think Donohue even thought PZ meant it that seriously? Or that Donohue even cared if he did? His reaction was pure political opportunism. Somethin' he figured he could make some hay with.
But making that hay, it leads places, whether he and his followers like it or not. And the sheer lunacy of those objecting shifts things, oddly. I mean, you say you're going to do something that should be so trivially silly, and all of a sudden, there's this windbag demagogue getting all red-faced, going on and on about what a horror this is, working on whipping up the outrage, and oh my, but people are actually falling for it. And there are people trying to get people fired, and the trolls are winding up and sockpuppeting the hell out of this place, there's nuts making threats and getting their wife fired, and you get to thinking: well, y'know, yeah, okay, maybe you should do that cracker thing. Sure it's silly, sure it's trivial, but, strangely enough, it does prove a modestly significant point, in this now truly bizarre context. Which is that pushy, arrogant gasbags like Donohue and the loud but not terribly bright folk he's managed to mobilize do not get to call the shots--not here, not anywhere. They don't get to demand anything, let alone respect, from anyone else, not with an attitude like that. Death threats, huh? Demands folk be fired, huh? Endless attempts, in fact, to demand punishment and suffering for what in the end is mere expression of an opinion they don't happen to like--and yes, folks, not that it's even entirely relevant, but I'm pretty sure that's exactly what it is, all their mumbo jumbo and handwaving about mystical rites and transubtantiation notwithstanding. Same as it's always been, same old excuse for any extremism they might want it to justify.
And this is how they presume to command 'respect', is it? And is this to be the way of things: the gasbags who threaten most and who scream 'bigotry' loudest gets to say what is and what is acceptable mockery of their particular irrationality of choice? What next, will we begin prosecuting blasphemy in the west again, jail those who dare to fail to show proper respect for the currently dominant faith?
So, okay, if they want to be like that about it, I'm with him all the way. And the cracker's toast. Sure it might still seem sorta a silly thing to do, on the face of it. But it's a madness with a certain method after all.
(And the banana peel sure is a nice touch.)
Posted by: Kobra | July 24, 2008 2:10 PM
The secret addition was a few papers from the God Delusion?
Very appropriate! I say this without an ounce of sarcasm, by the way.
Posted by: clinteas | July 24, 2008 2:11 PM
PZ,you should eat your bananas before they turn brown.
Posted by: drake33 | July 24, 2008 2:11 PM
+1 to PZ Myers.
Posted by: Katharine | July 24, 2008 2:11 PM
Well said, PZ.
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 2:11 PM
I can't wait to hear what Richard Dawkins thinks of this. :)
Also, don't you still have a whole bunch of other crackers? What're you gonna do with them?
Posted by: Analiese | July 24, 2008 2:12 PM
Shit, pz, I hope you've got a lid on that garbage lest the cracker rise again! Great post. Ahhhhh, men....
Posted by: Alan | July 24, 2008 2:12 PM
May the Hand of God bless you as you deserve.
Posted by: Jim RL | July 24, 2008 2:13 PM
I don't think anything is done at this point. I think the shitstorm is just about to start. You should really have a composting bin for all of that organic matter. Ashes to ashes and all that.
Posted by: Deepsix | July 24, 2008 2:13 PM
Oh, and PZ, don't close this thread. Let's see just how high this sucker will go.
Posted by: Steve | July 24, 2008 2:13 PM
Nothing Sacred - reminds me of a Zen story...Bodhidharma telling the pissed off Emperor of China that "Nothing is holy"... Then there is the old:"If you meet the Buddha, Kill him" Tossing a wooden Buddha on the fire etc... all to prove that nothing should be held above "reality". Why can't we have more "religions" like that? Or better yet, none at all...
Posted by: jb | July 24, 2008 2:13 PM
You don't compost your banana peels and coffee grounds? You ARE evil.....
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 2:14 PM
Now we wait for the lying press release from Bill Donohue and the deranged Catholic hordes that follow.
Good work, PZ. You used it to make a good point: No cheap, little material object should be considered sacred. Adding the pages from the "God Delusion" was a good move.
Posted by: Ranson | July 24, 2008 2:14 PM
Hmm. No spurting blood? Maybe the fruit peel will lose it's browning in a spontaneous healing miracle.
Posted by: Kobra | July 24, 2008 2:14 PM
http://www.kobrascorner.com/opine/nothing-is-sacred.php
I wrote this the other day, and because of this I greatly approve of including pages of The God Delusion. I'm sure even Prof. Dawkins will approve of the gesture (especially since PZ has already read it and there's no point in keeping it intact, right?).
Posted by: Luke O'Dell | July 24, 2008 2:14 PM
The God Delusion? I was on the right lines with my Origin of Species prediction, then. Nice job, PZ.
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 2:14 PM
Nice to see that you threw in some pages from The God Delusion. I know it's just a book, like the Qur'an, but it's still an excellent way to demonstrate that your goal is to show that nothing is, or should be, "sacred", and not simply to piss off some extremists (although I'm sure they'll find a way to get worked up just the same).
Posted by: The Science Pundit | July 24, 2008 2:15 PM
The page from The God Delusion proves to us that you are not a loyal member of the Church of Dawkinity! I immediately move for your excommunication!!!
Posted by: Deepsix | July 24, 2008 2:15 PM
Cheeses Christ, PZ, you've already bogged down the server.
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 2:15 PM
Now we wait for the lying press release from Bill Donohue and the deranged Catholic hordes that follow.
Good work, PZ. You used it to make a good point: No cheap, little material object should be considered sacred. Adding the pages from the "God Delusion" was a good move.
Posted by: PeteC | July 24, 2008 2:15 PM
Well done; the "it is finished" is a nice touch too.
But.. don't they have recycling in Morris? Paper and food waste in the trash? That's sacrilege here in the Bay Area...
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 2:15 PM
Hopefully after the howls of outrage from the godbots subside we'll see no more fourteen hundred reply threads!
Anyway, well done PZ...the picture just shows it's a "fracking" nailed cracker and some paper.
oh, and Maria (#1): There are no gods to have mercy on non-existent souls. Just thought you might like to know as you seem to be stuck in la-la land.
Martin
Posted by: Rich Stage | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
Great job, PZ. I was worried that you might get carried away, but you have done exactly what was needed to be done.
Posted by: Steve | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
Brillant PZ. Loved every word of it. You have my support.
Posted by: SC | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
How fitting.
Posted by: Draconiz | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
+1 to PZ!
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
Hopefully after the howls of outrage from the godbots subside we'll see no more fourteen hundred reply threads!
Anyway, well done PZ...the picture just shows it's a "fracking" nailed cracker and some paper.
oh, and Maria (#1): There are no gods to have mercy on non-existent souls. Just thought you might like to know as you seem to be stuck in la-la land.
Martin
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
It is easy to see the titles of the books, but where is the proof that is a consecrated host? I think it is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt for noteriety. Weak.
Posted by: Lee Brimmicombe-Wood | July 24, 2008 2:16 PM
We wait with bated breath to discover what trepid outrage the god-botherers will cast down upon you.
What a hollow god they serve! How delicious a treatment of their sacred relics!
Posted by: Potter | July 24, 2008 2:17 PM
You, sir, handled this perfectly! Bravo!!
Posted by: David Wegehaupt | July 24, 2008 2:17 PM
Well done... I'm glad this ordeal is over
*ignores the following 2000 comments about the damn cracker*
Posted by: Robin | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
Brilliant. This is the first blog post I have literally applauded.
Posted by: freelunch | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
I wonder whether that Louisville college ever considered calling itself Torquemada University. Bellarmine would be unknown except for his treatment of Galileo. Torquemada was famous.
Posted by: Jim RL | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
TG, why do you doubt it is a consecrated host? Do you doubt his ability to get one? Do you doubt his willingness to desecrate one? You're grasping at straws.
Posted by: Hessenroots | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
And it is done. Couple thousand more comments and the troll-fest will come to a close.
I'm quite sure it's unintentional but the banana peel (you know, the atheists worst nightmare!) is a wonderful bit of irony to top it off. ;P
Posted by: mk | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
The God Delusion, too. Brilliant!
Posted by: dave | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
Yay! Splendidly anticlimactic, nicely judged. Just a bit unsure about the rusty nail, a hint of Voodoo tetanus going on there. Could be uncomfortable for those who believe in magic....
And sad to see the desecration of books, which are all special, but fair's fair.
Posted by: Dylan Dog | July 24, 2008 2:18 PM
Great article PZ!
Posted by: AndrewG | July 24, 2008 2:19 PM
Thank you PZ for posting this, it is needed.
Faith inebriated, lunatics, ridiculed and mocked me as a teenager for daring to question God' existence. For several years they wasted my time and forced me to ingest prodigious fables of super heroes. I look forward to the response or rather the maunderings, of His Excellence, the CEO of the Roman Catholic Church when this news reaches him. His mental gymnastics is a treat and I have little doubt that he and his lieutenants will have no difficulty in further embarrassing themselves in the eyes of the civilized world.
Faithaholics have enjoyed power far too long and have abused it repeatedly yet they continue to demand respect. Fuck their feelings and fuck their intellectually lazy minds. I celebrate this occasion with all sane people around the planet. Screw all gods especially the sketsophrenic trio, Jesus, his Daddy and Casper from the Dutch Reformed Church in South Africa.
Peace everyone, please. Man created God and no amount of violence will change that.
Andrew
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 2:19 PM
I wonder if PZ's gonna be woken up in the middle of the night by the sound of some Catholic digging through his trash trying to "rescue" the cracker.
Seriously, this is awesome entertainment.
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 24, 2008 2:19 PM
That Darwin and his time machine; always causing trouble.Posted by: Josh West | July 24, 2008 2:19 PM
#39 It is easy to see the titles of the books, but where is the proof that is a consecrated host? I think it is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt for noteriety. Weak.
That's pretty much the point. 'Consecration' is meaningless drivel. Not sacred.
Bravo PZ, nice ending to this mess.
Posted by: freelunch | July 24, 2008 2:19 PM
I wonder whether that Louisville college ever considered calling itself Torquemada University. Bellarmine would be unknown except for his treatment of Galileo. Torquemada was famous.
Posted by: Zeno | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Dawkins will undoubtedly smite you in his terrible wrath!
But thank God that's over!
(I don't really mean the "thank God" part, of course. It's just an expression.)
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Oh brilliant. Simply brilliant.
The God Delusional is a nice touch. The only thing I might have added is a page from Origins.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Good going! Justice has been done. The text's a bit too long for me to read right now so I'll be sure to read it later in depth!!! I skimmed through it and saw the mighty picture.
Unfortunately I'm sad you didn't try to make a cross out of popsicle sticks. Now THAT would've been funny.
Wait uh... w...what's the brown stuff? O_o
...coffee? PHEW
Posted by: Paul W. | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
I'm sure that will be forthcoming, just as soon as somebody provides PZ with evidence that his consecrated host was transubstantiated into the Body of the Living God.
Why does one matter without the other?
Posted by: Richard Wolford | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Beautiful, and point well taken. I would have longed for some pages of On the Origins of Species in there as well, but The God Delusion was likely more fitting, so again, beautiful.
Posted by: Quinn Martindale | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Meh...
Posted by: Greta Christina | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Father, into Your hands I commend my crumbs.
And I never again want to hear about sophisticated modern theology, and how nobody takes that magical- thinking stuff seriously anymore.
Posted by: E.V. | July 24, 2008 2:20 PM
Oh no, the hand-wringing has begun.
Posted by: GeoffI | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
PZ,
I hope you saved that piece of art you have created. You could sell it on eBay and give the money to a pro-science charity.
Posted by: Brian W. | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
ripping a few pages out of those books is ok, as long as the aren't completely ruined. I hate to see ANY book destroyed.
Posted by: Guido | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
Great.
Excellent.
Now, all they have to do is pray. Right? The Lord listens to them
Right?
Come on, people, stop writing e-mails. Have TRUE faith.
Posted by: bad Jim | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
Holey crackers!
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
"TG, why do you doubt it is a consecrated host? Do you doubt his ability to get one? Do you doubt his willingness to desecrate one? You're grasping at straws."
I am a man of science. I want proof, not claims based on authority.
Posted by: SteadyEddy | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
Excellent write-up as always PZ! There are some un-rational people who might accuse you of copying something that has already been done, but I can think of nothing more fitting than to nail that ort of stale tasteless bread to some processed wood fiber. Well done PZ!
Posted by: F. Jardim | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
Amazing writing in your prelude to the main event. A+ as far as I am concerned.
As for the festivities themselves, I liked the casual utilitarianism of the desecration. Adding a page from The god Delusion was also thoughtful and helps showing that the truly unbiased, rational mind doesn't revere icons, even if their meaning agrees with their own conclusions. I think a page from 'Origin of the Species' would have been FAr more effective in rubbing on the faces of fundies how we do not hold Evolution or science as a religion.
Posted by: Physicalist | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
He desecrated The God Delusion??? Forget excommunication; BURN HIM!!!!!
Posted by: Jon | July 24, 2008 2:21 PM
Nice touch there with the God Delusion. That should sufficiently perplex them.
It won't, of course.
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
@TG: I seem to recall others asking how to prove it's consecrated, and you refuse to say how.
PZ, I'm a little disappointed in what you did. I think you gave too much consideration. IMHO, you should've forgone the nail and just tossed it all in the garbage.
Posted by: Rich Stage | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
Can't you hear the little jeebus cracker screaming?
That's the giveaway there, innit?
Posted by: Josh West | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
#39 It is easy to see the titles of the books, but where is the proof that is a consecrated host? I think it is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt for noteriety. Weak.
That's pretty much the point. 'Consecration' is meaningless drivel. Not sacred.
Bravo PZ, nice ending to this mess.
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
TG sez:
It is easy to see the titles of the books, but where is the proof that is a consecrated host? I think it is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt for noteriety. Weak.
Tell you what, TG. If you can pick a consecrated host out of a lineup of unconsecrated ones, I'll concede that your question is relevant, and I'll ask PZ to provide proof of consecration. Sound fair?
Posted by: Zeno | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
Dawkins will undoubtedly smite you in his terrible wrath!
But thank God that's over!
(I don't really mean the "thank God" part, of course. It's just an expression.)
Posted by: Quinn Martindale | July 24, 2008 2:22 PM
It's weird, but the destroying of books disturbs me regardless of their sacred status.
Posted by: Milo Johnson | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
Now if we could just make the rest of the religious crackers in the country go away...
Posted by: Philboid | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
PZ, you nailed it.
Posted by: BluesBassist | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
Bravo! Not bad for a "third rate" intellectual.
Posted by: Kawa | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
* applauds *
Posted by: Shygetz | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
While it does kinda bother me that you destroyed two perfectly servicable books instead of giving them to people who could read them (not sacreligious, just not cool) I found the conclusion (if it truly is such) to be suitably anti-climactic, which is exactly what the disposal of a cracker should be.
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
TG #39:
Can't you see the blood and ichor oozing from the stabbed host?
Wait...
That's because there's no difference between a fracking cracker and a consecrated host. (mumble mumble Hoc est corpus christi mumble mumble [nice ass on that choirboy] mumble mumble)
Why don't you use your amazing christo-powers to discern the cracker's consecrated nature?
Martin
Posted by: John C. Randolph | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
PZ,
This is one of the finer essays you've written. Thanks for the history lesson, and well done.
-jcr
Posted by: Slen | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
stupid simple cracker
May is decompose like the trash it is.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:23 PM
...Wait a sec guys. Where's the blood?! I thought they said there was a guy that had a flood of blood, and that jews had stains of blood coming out of there! HEY!
Could it be that it's... it's just a tasteless sheet of paper? Oh no.
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
I wonder if PZ's gonna be woken up in the middle of the night by the sound of some Catholic digging through his trash trying to "rescue" the cracker.
Seriously, this is awesome entertainment.
Posted by: Jack of Knives | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
The picture makes it a bit grittier than it should seem, but...
I liked the conclusion best. It's a good take home message.
Posted by: God | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
God damn it, PZ. Now I have to start the universe all over again.
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
Nice post. I really liked your last paragraph.
Posted by: blf | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
I suspect Teh Big Oxidized Spike is deeply offended at this disgraceful treatment of a rusty nail, and its followers will send a congregration of angry screws after you. Pay attention as to whether they are normal, Phillips, Robinson, of other types of screws, this is a matter of great division in Spikemythical, with much flaking of the rust.
Posted by: Jesus, called Christ | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
As the dead Jew that Catholics claim to worship, I would just like to say that I entirely approve.
Posted by: Slinky | July 24, 2008 2:24 PM
Excellent, i loved the inclusion of the god delusion pages, i think they helped prove a point.
Posted by: Kobra | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
PZ, you have a typo!
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
GULP - The God Delusion...in the trash?!
You my friend, have Large Brass Balls.
You may need a wheelbarrow to carry those in...
(Yes - a Bill Hicks reference)
Wow.
I stand here shaken (not stirred)
Bravo, PZ, Bravo!
Posted by: F. Jardim | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Amazing writing in your prelude to the main event. A+ as far as I am concerned.
As for the festivities themselves, I liked the casual utilitarianism of the desecration. Adding a page from The god Delusion was also thoughtful and helps showing that the truly unbiased, rational mind doesn't revere icons, even if their meaning agrees with their own conclusions. I think a page from 'Origin of the Species' would have been FAr more effective in rubbing on the faces of fundies how we do not hold Evolution or science as a religion.
Posted by: Patricia | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Standing ovation!
Bravo PZ! Bravo!
Posted by: Jesse | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Good blog. The preamble was perfect.
I wouldn't have bothered with the nail, although the page of the God Delusion was a nice touch. Unconcerned throwing out with the trash. Perfect.
Good luck wading through the hate mail.
Posted by: S. Fisher | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Brace yourself PZ. I've been reading your blog for several years (since sometime in '05) and this seems to be some sort of culminating event. I think you've definetly got the attention of the worlds Godbotherers now. It's been fun, and will continue to be fun to watch your antics. Changing the world one post at a time.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
TG,
Surely Catholics will be able to tell if the wafer is consecrated or not. In fact this whole thing has been about just that claim, that there is a difference. Well if there is, Catholics presumably will be able to tell. After all if that wafer really is the body of Christ it will not be the same as just an ordinary wafer.
So come Catholics, tell us. Is that wafer consecrated or not ?
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Crucified again ;)
What's this thread (and/or follow-ups) going to, 5000 comments?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Michael Hogan | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
I'm an atheist and think religious beliefs are stupid but I wish you hadn't done this. It will just inflame them. It would have been better to do nothing and let their own intolerant words condemn them. The Catholics have revealed their true nature.
Love your web site otherwise.
Posted by: Milo Johnson | July 24, 2008 2:25 PM
Now if we could just make the rest of the religious crackers in the country go away...
Posted by: bullfighter | July 24, 2008 2:26 PM
I hope your trash is picked up before the third day. I wouldn't want to have a holey cracker rise from my trash can and walk around my house.
Posted by: Kobra | July 24, 2008 2:26 PM
PZ, you have a typo!
Posted by: Vivek | July 24, 2008 2:26 PM
The God Delusion is about what we don't believe; the Eucharist and the Koran are symbols of what other people do believe. I would've preferred a genuine work of science to be among the desecratees.
Vivek
Posted by: God | July 24, 2008 2:26 PM
God damn it, PZ. Now I have to start the universe all over again.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 2:26 PM
GULP - The God Delusion...in the trash?!
You my friend, have Large Brass Balls.
You may need a wheelbarrow to carry those in...
(Yes - a Bill Hicks reference)
Wow.
I stand here shaken (not stirred)
Bravo, PZ, Bravo!
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
I'm sure that will be forthcoming, just as soon as somebody provides PZ with evidence that his consecrated host was transubstantiated into the Body of the Living God.
Why does one matter without the other?
++++++++++++
No desecration would have taken place were the host not consecrated, and thus no Catholic would even bother to notice. Yet, PZ claims the host was consecrated. Let him prove hi8s claim. Nobody has to believe it is the body of Christ for the act of consecration is a public act perfomed by a Catholic priest.
So, where's the proof, or is this place not about science after all?
Posted by: Reginald | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
HOW DARE YOU! YOU HAVE DEFILED THE GREAT TENANT OF MY FAITH! I WILL NOW PRAY TO MY GOD:
OH MIGHTY AND MERCIFUL BAZELKESH, FORGIVE THIS MAN FOR COMBINING COFFEE GROUNDS WITH YOUR SACRED 'SPOTTILY BROWNED BANANA PEELS' HE KNOWS NOT WHAT HE DOES.
Posted by: charfles | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
Woot finally. The God Delusion desecration was predicted (Prophesied?) by a few people in the earlier threads.
Posted by: S. Fisher | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
Brace yourself PZ. I've been reading your blog for several years (since sometime in '05) and this seems to be some sort of culminating event. I think you've definetly got the attention of the worlds' Godbotherers now. It's been fun, and will continue to be fun to watch your antics. Changing the world one post at a time.
Posted by: Bryan | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
This is so G-rated compared to all of the atrocities done in the name of Jesus.
I applaud your family values PZ!
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 2:27 PM
Brilliant. I especially liked the abuse of the book by Dawkins, just to prove atheists consider nothing to be sacred.
Also brilliant was the massive evidence for the idea that Catholics are the most immoral people in human history, a problem that obviously continues today.
Well done, sir.
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
TG #39:
Can't you see the blood and ichor oozing from the stabbed host?
Wait...
That's because there's no difference between a fracking cracker and a consecrated host. (mumble mumble Hoc est corpus christi mumble mumble [nice ass on that choirboy] mumble mumble)
Why don't you use your amazing christo-powers to discern the cracker's consecrated nature?
Martin
Posted by: mk | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Wow! That's got to be the quickest trip to 100 comments ever!
Posted by: Andrew W | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Well done PZ.
Posted by: fireant451 | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Some may hoist a G&T, but I shall have a Rusty Nail tonight in PZ's honor.
Posted by: Reginald | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
HOW DARE YOU! YOU HAVE DEFILED THE GREAT TENANT OF MY FAITH! I WILL NOW PRAY TO MY GOD:
OH MIGHTY AND MERCIFUL BAZELKESH, FORGIVE THIS MAN FOR COMBINING COFFEE GROUNDS WITH YOUR SACRED 'SPOTTILY BROWNED BANANA PEELS' HE KNOWS NOT WHAT HE DOES.
Posted by: Viscount | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Great post PZ! It was exactly what was needed. Thanks for going through with this and not caving to the threats.
Incidentally, how did you manage to get the consecrated host? Did someone sneak it out of Mass or did you find a disgruntled ex-priest to Jesusize it for you?
Posted by: DB | July 24, 2008 2:28 PM
Whatever your attitude towards the Host may be - your actions and bragging about them display a hatred and utter disdain for those who believe differently from you.
I understand that YOU don't hold it sacred. That's fine, if you don't believe, you don't believe and that's your business. That is, it's between you and God (and if you don't believe in Him, also your business).
The fact is, the Host IS sacred to millions if not billions of people. Your actions reveal a deep seated hatred, contempt and disdain for those people and their beliefs. I guess nothing matters to you except what YOU think, how YOU feel and what YOU want. Must be nice being god on You Planet.
Posted by: Zeno | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Sorry for the double post, but I got a message telling me my comment had been aborted. (Sorry, Catholics, for using that terrible word.)
I assume the double post is a miracle!
Posted by: Brian | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Well, it's somewhat of an anticlimax for sure. No daylight instantly turning to night, no curtains ripping, no blood gushing, ground shaking...
I guess God either doesn't give a shit about crackers, Q'urans and mindless followers or perhaps...
Man made up the whole God thing.
hmmm
Either way, god doesn't give a shit. Live life, enjoy your family and friends and show respect to your fellow man/woman and not to crackers and silly beliefs.
Posted by: RM | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
That was beautifully done.
Posted by: Autumn | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Given that the picture was below the fold, as well as the length of the post, any people claiming to be outraged about it are obviously going to great lengths to find images which offend them. How sick is someone who really, really needs to be angry all the time?
Posted by: Greta Christina | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Oh, P.S.: I just want to say how sorry I am for everything you've been through with this, PZ. You took one for the team. Thanks, dude.
(And I also want to say that, when I started my initial comment, the comments were at 7, and yet mine came in at #61. Fracking hilarious.)
Posted by: Moses | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Yeah!
Posted by: Reed Braden | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Wooo! Carnage!
Posted by: Adam | July 24, 2008 2:29 PM
Don't let the bastards grind you down
Posted by: Gene Goldring | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
"That's one small step for [a] man, one giant leap for mankind"
Posted by: Katharine | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
Vivek -
Science is not religion.
Posted by: BaldySlaphead | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
Congratulations PZ; you made the point even more forcefully than I had hoped by treating this whole preposterous affair with the casual contempt it so rightly deserved. The God Delusion was a great touch!
Hope the fuckwits leave you alone now.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
The books I destroyed were ones that I had duplicate copies of -- I've actually got several other copies of The God Delusion still. I think Richard will forgive me. In fact, he might join me in encouraging all of you to go buy a second copy so you can desecrate your first.
Nobody is going to be going through my garbage. The date was picked intentionally to be after the weekly garbage pickup here. I suppose some Catholic crazies could head out to bless the Morris landfill, if they want.
Posted by: e.citizen | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
Hell laughed indeed.Did God hurt? I'm sure God wouldn't burn in hell, but you have chosen to be. hahahahahaha
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
Argh, sorry for the double post, I see the server is already toasted. I'm sure PZ's overlords at Scienceblogs are just thrilled. But boy has this ever been worth it.
Posted by: Wayne Walker | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
As a worshiper of the Great Spotted Banana, I will express a modicum of outrage at 4pm, over tea. Followed by a nap.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 2:30 PM
Blessed be the holy evolution, PZ did not desecrate the holy Origin.
Had he violated my holy religion, vengeance would follow (you know I'm kidding, right)?
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:31 PM
May God forgive you.
Posted by: Parker | July 24, 2008 2:31 PM
Fantastic ending to an embarrassing display of MIddle Age irrationality and sickening idiocy.
Posted by: Eric | July 24, 2008 2:31 PM
Good one. Nice touch by adding in Dawkin's book.
Posted by: Honna | July 24, 2008 2:31 PM
I was starting to get bored today.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 2:31 PM
PZ,you should eat your bananas before they turn brown.
No way! Bananas have to be brown to taste right. Chiquita says so!
Fabulous post, PZ. Very well-written and thought out.
Posted by: Anthony | July 24, 2008 2:32 PM
I can't desecrate my first copy of The God Delusion - Professor Dawkins consecrated it with his signature.
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | July 24, 2008 2:32 PM
Beautiful. Elegant. Poignant. Thought-provoking. A glass raised to you, my friend.
And, a request to the rest of my atheist friends here. We all know the "righteous" will come here bellowing. I suggest we sit back, and quietly let them, in our own form of silent protest. I'd love nothing more than to let this thread fill up with nothing but hate-filled vitriol from the catholics, reinforcing PZ's post. Let it fill with the complaints and screeches of those who don't get the point. I myself will contribute not one more word to this matter, and although I would never insist that you do the same, I think it would be great to just sit back and let it sink in... silently.
CE
Posted by: e.citizen | July 24, 2008 2:32 PM
Hell laughed indeed.Did God hurt? I'm sure God wouldn't burn in hell, but you have chosen to be. hahahahahaha you are not posting my comment, huh....where's your son tonite?
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:32 PM
TG's got a point and no logic driven being can deny that! We need proof it was consecrated. But unfortunately that proof will only be the word of the guy/girl that got it from him. Annecdotes aren't great as we point out to the silly christians/various fanatics. I doubt they let people videotape masses.
Guess for that one we'll just have to take it on... gasp... faith. Or start over and try to sneak camera proofs!
Posted by: Geoff | July 24, 2008 2:33 PM
I would like to personally thank Dr. Myers for not desecrating spaghetti or pasta of any kind.
His holyness the FSM is pleased.
Posted by: rb | July 24, 2008 2:33 PM
sorry, but the Koran does not look like an official Koran it looks like a translated version, which would diminish its sacredness.
Posted by: fireant451 | July 24, 2008 2:33 PM
Some may hoist a G&T, but I shall have a Rusty Nail tonight in PZ's honor.
Posted by: Jim RL | July 24, 2008 2:33 PM
TG, if you were actually a man of science you would never demand proof of anything. It is impossible to prove anything outside of mathematics and formal logic. Scientists deal in evidence. It is clearly a host. PZ is clearly capable of getting a host from his blog horde. PZ is clearly unconcerned with desecrating a consecrated host. Only extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Without evidence to the contrary there is no evidence to doubt his claim.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:33 PM
May God have mercy on you.
Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Please lead all souls to heaven especially those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.
Posted by: Steve | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
Just a thought to all the people wishing for God to Punish PZ - according to your shtick, all you have to do is "not believe" to go to hell, so what's the big deal about poking a hole in the bread wafer? Doesn't really add anything to the imagined tortures that were already imagined to be waiting in some imaginary after life...
Posted by: PaulT, | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
As an ex-catholic, just let me add that whatever you have done to that cracker, it is not nearly evil as what those priests did to those children for so many years.
Posted by: thundergunn | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
Well done! I'm going to raise a glass of Laphroaig in toast, and munch on some cheese and 'crackers'.
Posted by: Brian W. | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
Vivek, I think that is a good point. Oh well.
BTW, an Elder Scrolls fan?
Posted by: Erik | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
I will not stand for the desecration of the God Delusion. May science have mercy on your soul.
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 2:34 PM
Beautiful!
Sagan, Feynman, Dawkins, Aasimov... All have inspired me at one point or another. It may be that you are not such a "rockstar" as them, but now it is your turn to inspire, PZ.
Thanks. Well done!
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
He won't, he's always pissed off. Sour guy, that G fellow.Posted by: Honna | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
I was starting to get bored today.
Posted by: razib | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
if you mean germany as a catholic nation 70 years ago, that's wrong, germany was (is) majority protestant (more then than now, as more secular germans have protestant than catholic background). as for the muslim vs.catholic comparison, i think the point is that the catholic league wants to fire you, the muslim league would want to set you on fire :-) that's a difference between obnoxiousness and savagery.
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Nothing is sacred, nothing I say! I'm going to set my browser to your web site, then drive a nail through my monitor. That will show you who's serious.
Posted by: Jason W | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
The pages make me a little sad, but I recognize I'm pretty irrational when it comes to books. Took me the better part of the first year of college to be willing even to write notes in a textbook.
Posted by: mr_p | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Bravo.
But why a rusty nail? I thought it took wooden stakes or silver bullets to kill the undead?
A reply to a comment on a prior post who compared this to destroying a family heirloom or something to that effect, These things are mass produced by the thousands, if not more everyday. It was by no means a rare or one of a kind item. No catholic had to forgo communion because of a shortage of crackers.
When everything becomes sacred, then nothing is.
Anyway, the world seems to not have ended. Everyone as you were.
Posted by: DaveX | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Absolutely perfect, PZ-- glad to see you did this right. I also appreciate the historical leadup, which was very interesting.
Gotta wonder, though... how long before some nutjob sees the face of Jebus in the coffee stains?
Posted by: Tom Morris | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
A sacred cracker gets crucified. Now only a few weeks filled with crazy zealots and concern trolls.
Posted by: raven | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
What sort of morons name a university after a torturer who condemned Giordano Bruno to burn at the stake and almost torched Galileo. Both for thinking that the earth orbits the sun. Must be for the Catholics who are desperately homesick for the middle ages.
Posted by: Michael | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
I can't wait to hear what Richard Dawkins thinks of this. :)
Dawkins would pad PZ on the back saying job well done you showed how science disproved the wafer being God. And since you got some bad responses it clearly justifies you in provoking such anger in the first place. Your such a martyr for the militant atheist cause which is a movement to wipe out religion all together. Oh that was also a lovely picture of the Quran I wish I could hang that up on my wall.
People with common sense just shake their heads, them militant atheists are like little kids fighting on a playground or in an alley somewhere. I wouldn't be surprised if someone burns PZ picture...lol
Posted by: Kylgar | July 24, 2008 2:35 PM
Ah, well said and well played.
It is, after all, *just* a cracker.
...and *just* paper.
...and *just* a banana
(the latter of which, I have had and will have, no nightmares regarding, I'd like to add)
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
May God have mercy on you.
Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Please lead all souls to heaven especially those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.
Posted by: Kobra | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
#133: You might be right about that, PZ.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
May God have mercy on you.
Oh my Jesus forgive us our sins and save us from the fires of hell. Please lead all souls to heaven especially those most in need of thy mercy. Amen.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
Wow. I've never considered myself an acolyte of yours PZ (I just happen to also be a liberal atheist who's prone to ranting at stupidity), but I might have to become one now.
This little dénouement of yours, including the Judge Jones-esque preamble on the history of host desecration, was fitting, tactful, and if I may, somewhat graceful. No bloodthirsty foaming at the mouth like the goddies hoped for ("He hates the cracker! More proof of God's love!"), no disgusting freak show antics, but a simple statement of our intent as activist atheists: toss those sacred relics out with the rest of the things we no longer need. Bye-bye to gods, be they deities or Dawkinses or Darwinses.
I was wondering if you'd have the guts to toss out The God Delusion, though. We Darwinist atheists invented Hitler, you know.
Posted by: e.citizen | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
Hell laughed indeed.Did God hurt? I'm sure God wouldn't burn in hell. But you are a good candidate...hahahaha
Posted by: OctoberMermaid | July 24, 2008 2:36 PM
Kind of a waste of a rusty nail, if you ask me.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
I do like the anti-climax. Hell, one could even argue that the nail was a fitting tribute to Xian superstition.
It's diplomatic (and safer--which should be aimed for) to "violate" various supposedly sacred texts.
By the way, though, I don't know if a Quran in English really counts. The "real Quran" is believed to be only the Arabic version. Not that some Muslims wouldn't be offended by "violating" an English translation, it's just that the "real offense" would probably require the original Arabic.
Just saying.
I'm certainly not suggesting a re-do with an Arabic version, of course. That, too, is a silly superstition.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Ken | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
Good work PZ! It has been fun to see just how seriously these religious nuts take their religion. I would love to see any of them justify their reactions using their own holy book. As a recovering christian I would especially love to hear how they think their Jesus would react to this. I am fairly certain they will not find passages where Jesus commanded people to threaten someone or their family with physical harm. Again, the whole episode has shown the fundie true colors.
Posted by: Greg | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
Well done. As far as the lack of Muslim complaints go, Zizek noted that European Muslims found that they allies were atheists after the Danish comic controversy.
Posted by: Ticktockman | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
So now, evidently, you've harmed (and caffeinated) Jesus. I've been wondering which *part* of Jesus, exactly has been harmed; which blessed bodily bit of flesh is the cracker. Since dogmatically speaking, Jesus is whole and eternal and all that in Heaven, it must be some part of his allegedly sinless flesh that didn't make the trip, perhaps some part of the, er, Holy of Holies separated at a young age.
Just *picture* it, my Catholic friends, chewing over that bit as it transubstantiates in your gullet. Holy indeed.
-TTm
Posted by: MicroZealous | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
So, will Dawkins now show stigmata? I'm confused.
Also, why are some people so eager to see this end? This is great entertainment for a long, hot summer.
May Thor forgive you all, then torture you.
Peace and Love ;
Posted by: Andrew Cramb | July 24, 2008 2:37 PM
Well done PZ. I can't imagine a more appropriate post.
BRAVO!!!
Posted by: Spook | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
How did you manage to get a nail *through* one of those brittle crackers? I would expect it to simply break...
Perhaps I should repeat the experiment. You know, for science and stuff.
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
And still no one has substantively countered my analogies. I'm not surprised.
Myers, I had hoped you would prevent you perverted desire from taking hold but you gave in. I still hold out hope for you somehow despite this.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
Oh, no, link didn't work!
Chiquita song
Posted by: Hilary | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
Nothings sacred are you nuts? Every sperm is sacred, especially mine! I give each one a name and would provide them with crackers but thy have no mouths and as such eating (and screaming) are right out.
Posted by: Charades | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
@ #151: Oh, please.
*applauds PZ's brilliant blasphemy* Great job!
Pax Nabisco, people!
Posted by: Nick Winnick | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
From V for Vendetta:
Finch explains to Party leader Adam Susan the transcript of a recording made as V assassinates Archbishop Tony Lilliman.
Mr. Finch: There's something that sounds like "Kill me sentiment"... just gibberish... and then they talk about Communion and the Communion Wafer...There's the word "Transubstantiation": That's the miracle of Transubstantiation when the wafer transforms into the Body of Christ. Catholic concept originally. There, now listen to this...
V (on tape): And at the moment this enters your mouth it becomes the flesh of the Saviour?
Archbishop Lilliman (on tape): Yes. Yes. Look, please...
V (on tape): And whatever it is made of now, it will become the Body of Christ?
Archbishop Lilliman (on tape): Yes. Whatever it is now. Whatever.
V (on tape): I want you to swallow it.
Mr. Finch: And then there's a funny little human noise. And then there's just Beethoven's Fifth. End of tape. We've just had the Path reports through. The Bishop was poisoned. The Host was full of cyanide. And do you know what? When it reached his abdomen it was still cyanide.
Posted by: raven | July 24, 2008 2:38 PM
What sort of morons name a university after a torturer who condemned Giordano Bruno to burn at the stake and almost torched Galileo. Both for thinking that the earth orbits the sun. Must be for the Catholics who are desperately homesick for the middle ages.
Posted by: very clever | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Dear Mr. Meyers,
I don't think you can claim unconcerned contempt for the host with the treatment that you've given it. Well, perhaps contempt, but not a lack of concern. Where did you find this rusty nail that you drove through the crotch of this jesus cracker? If you had to go searching for a rusty nail for just this purpose, your claim to a lack of concern loses its force. If you happen to have rusty nails sitting about, why?
As for desecration, there are many options you could have entertained, yet you chose to make a minor spectacle. You could have, as a colleague of mine suggests, painted it pink and placed it in a urinal in a church; you could have nailed it to a tree, or you could even have chosen to ignore it completely... Why the minor spectacle?
But seriously, the coffee and banana are a nice touch.
Posted by: Rodney Trotter | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Still haven't made my mind up about this. As an atheist (Russell agnostic technically) I don't respect crazy beliefs that tradition says we should; but there is a level of provocation here I feel slightly uncomfortable about.
I've been trying to think of a suitable analogy - the closest I got was taking a sacred Hindu cow and making a decent barbeque from it in front of the temple. Does that not make you feel slightly strange?
Posted by: adam | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Quote from
http://markshea.blogspot.com/
Repeatedly tried to get Myers to verify the "death threat" bit, but was shouted down by the throngs of Myers cultists who took the claim on faith
Oh the irony
Posted by: Hilary | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Nothings sacred are you nuts? Every sperm is sacred, especially mine! I give each one a name and would provide them with crackers but thy have no mouths and as such eating (and screaming) are right out.
Posted by: rob | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Mark: Eucharist!
Jack: Cojones!
KJ: Sacrilege!
PZ: It's only a cracker.
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Except for the odd spaghetti and banana worshipers, I'm not seeing a lot of god-bots posting on this thread yet.
Is the infestation over?
Posted by: No One of Consequence | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
It would not surprise me in the least to find out that a group of Catholics would go through PZ's trash, or even to the local dump to search for the Eucharist and then take it back to a church, douse it in "Holy Water" and then give it a "proper" burial.
Posted by: aiabx | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Well done, PZ. That's a history lesson worth learning there.
Posted by: Timothy Wood | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
*claps*
Posted by: Gary Hilson | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
You rock.
Posted by: Epinephrine | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Bwahaha.... if there were any way of proving that a host had been consecrated, it would lend at least some weight to the argument that it is special. But there isn't. All the "accidents" of the wee wafer are the same. There can't be proof, because there is no transubstatiation.
Posted by: tsig | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
Ite missa est.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 24, 2008 2:39 PM
I knew the first thing that would happen is that the loons would claim it is a fake cracker. The one I chose to photograph is one that the sender actually provided video documentation of where it came from.
Not that there's any substantial difference between the consecrated and unconsecrated version.
Posted by: skyblue | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
We're going to have to demand that the St. Paul police increase security and put a cordon around these nasty "Catholics" who say they're coming to the city to worship their gods at the RNC convention. They've already made numerous threats of violence and death to local residents. We can't have them wandering among the public.
Posted by: Aden B | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
Excellently done, PZ.
Posted by: Randy | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
Well said, of course, and AJ Milne @ #12 - also well said. Right to the crux of the matter, I'd say.
A little less seriously, I was saddened to find that PZ's heart is not only uncircumsized, but hard as well. Not just the arteries from all the filthy things we're all sure an eeeevil man like him does to his own body, but the entire heart. That's unfortunate.
As for myself, I must admit to a bit of ambivalence about being called an acolyte. On the one hand, no one has ever called me that before and it sort of has a nice ring to it - on the other hand I get the sneaky feeling mark Shea didn't mean it in a very nice way.
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
PZ,
surprisingly, I have to say, seing this picture: I really don't care about this desecregation-thing.
But you should think about seperating your biological waste from paper. I don't know how that is handled in the U.S. but here in Germany they would tell me to keep my garbage if I don't care for recycling (there are actual laws about that). That in fact I found much more offensive than the desecregation (though, of course, hardly offensive at all).
But the Koran and the cracker - It just so doesn't concern me. What deluded moron could possible care about that? I am afraid, we are to see...
Wish you luck,
Andy
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
Analogies? Which crazy one were you again? There's so many we lost track.Posted by: Clock | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
The "surprise entry" was pages from the God Delusion? Brilliant! Very impressive show, PZ. Well played.
Posted by: Timothy Wood | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
*claps*
Posted by: Reed Braden | July 24, 2008 2:40 PM
Wooo! Carnage!
Posted by: James | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
I love it! This thread will go to infinity three times over!
Posted by: e.citizen | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
Hell laughed indeed.Did God hurt? I'm sure God wouldn't burn in hell. But you are a good candidate...hahahaha
Posted by: zer0 | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
Well said.
Posted by: Canuck | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
Well, before this thread gets to the thousands, let me just say that I'm very curious to see how long it takes for the bloviating Donohue to issue another press release, how long it takes for the hordes of believers to register their outrage, and how long before the first Muslim shows up. I think this may draw one into the fray. But we await with bated breath.
Posted by: Joe Cracker | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
The Donahues will have a big problem here. There is no way for them to prove that the cracker was consecrated.
I DARE THEM TO PROVE THAT THE NAILED CRACKER IS JESUS!
You really nailed it, PZ!
Posted by: MT | July 24, 2008 2:41 PM
Bravo PZ!
The anti-climax is genius. This post reads, from top to bottom, like one of your brilliant science posts that attracted me to this site in the first place.
No ranting or vulgarities that would prevent sensitive souls from reading it or make it inappropriate for sharing with children - just a recitation of historical facts and logic conclusions.
This is the art of teaching, in the finest sense of the word.
Posted by: Jim RL | July 24, 2008 2:42 PM
Well done with the documentation PZ. That is more evidence then we'll ever get for any recognized "miracle" by the church.
Posted by: idahovic | July 24, 2008 2:42 PM
This is such a enlightening and fun post it ought to be illegal. Oh, wait...
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 2:42 PM
Ordinarily, I would agree, but a Catholic (in another thread) asserted that:
Me, I've argued that desecration of crackers is impossible anyway, but no one listens to me.
Posted by: kb9aln | July 24, 2008 2:42 PM
Excellent.
PZ, you continue to get my respect for your lucid treatment of the issue.
All the best to you and yours.
Posted by: Spook | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
How did you manage to get a nail *through* one of those brittle crackers? I would expect it to simply break...
Perhaps I should repeat the experiment. You know, for science and stuff.
Posted by: Yoo | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
Seeing what Catholics have actually said to PZ, I have a hard time believing my eyes when I read a lot of Christians saying that he's the one that needs to get a grip. Threatening to disrespect a single wafer among trillions (probably an underestimate by a few orders of magnitudes) versus death threats? And there are people who actually consider the former a more serious offense? I can only hope that such people will be able to learn basic human decency that is common to most of humanity, instead of clinging to their religious faith used to justify horrendous things.
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
And still no one has substantively countered my analogies. I'm not surprised.
Myers, I had hoped you would prevent you perverted desire from taking hold but you gave in. I still hold out hope for you somehow despite this.
Posted by: Don O'Treply | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
what - no Velveeta® on this cracker? And I was hoping for a recipe for Nacho Cheesus.
At any rate, PZ, you've done the world (another) favour by pointing out how vile the Catholic "religion" really is. Truly disgusting, the lot of them.
Posted by: Jason W | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
The pages make me a little sad, but I recognize I'm pretty irrational when it comes to books. Took me the better part of the first year of college to be willing even to write notes in a textbook.
Posted by: Kim | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
Well done PZ. At least you are consistent, and it is good that you treat Evangelical Atheism the same way as Evangelical Catholicism........
Posted by: anevilmeme | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
PZ I have officially added you to my list of heros!
Posted by: K | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
PZ totally PWND Jesus
Posted by: Andrew Cramb | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
Well done PZ. I can't imagine a more appropriate post.
BRAVO!!!
Posted by: Nick | July 24, 2008 2:43 PM
I've been reading your blog for a while but this is my first comment. I must say, this is one of the finest pieces of expression I've seen on the topic and is a marvelous example of how to respond to religious fanatics with both class and witticism.
Bravo!
Posted by: Hessenroots | July 24, 2008 2:44 PM
"making a decent barbeque from it in front of the temple. Does that not make you feel slightly strange?"
Poor analogy only in that this wasn't done outside a mosque or church (as far as we know).
Taking pictures of the steak and posting them on a blog would be more like it.
Posted by: MT | July 24, 2008 2:44 PM
Bravo PZ!
The anti-climax is genius. This post reads, from top to bottom, like one of your brilliant science posts that attracted me to this site in the first place.
No ranting or vulgarities that would prevent sensitive souls from reading it or make it inappropriate for sharing with children - just a recitation of historical facts and logic conclusions.
This is the art of teaching, in the finest sense of the word.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 2:44 PM
Celtic_Evolution (#144) wrote:
Excellent suggestion. I will try my best to not respond to the Catholic insanity that's sure to come.
I hope the Catholics who come here read PZ's excellent summary of Catholic atrocities.
Catholics don't throw people in gas chambers anymore, and they no longer murder people who refuse to eat crackers, but this cracker incident proves beyond any doubt Catholics are still the most immoral people in human history.
Posted by: John Swindle | July 24, 2008 2:44 PM
Wonderful. Appropriate. Well considered. Beautifully stated. Highly moral.
Exactly what I would've said if I were articulate enough to do so.
And you even included a Python reference.
Today, PZ, you are the King of Blogdom.
Posted by: Preston | July 24, 2008 2:44 PM
Cool. It is, indeed, just a cracker.
And I'm glad you included some pages from the God Delusion, to emphasize the idiocy of holding ANYTHING sacred.
Posted by: Leukocyte | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
[Yawn]... I can't wait for this to die down and go away. I stay away from church so I can think about things that actually matter without having to deal with the crazies. Now the crazies are all over my favorite blog. Can we please cleanse our palate with some more blogging about developmental biology papers? Everyone knows that jargon-laden research papers are to fundamentalists as sunlight is to vampires.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
Now, if only there were a true account of the time wasted over a single piece of baked wheat paste.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: No One of Consequence | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
[poe]
Look at the picture closely. I'm sure there is a Dilbert cartoon in the trash as well. You can just see the corner of it underneath the book.
Alert the Dilbots!!!!
[/poe]
Posted by: Pablo | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
And, whereas sexual abuse is certainly the pinnacle of it, others, such as myself, were abused in other ways. For example, my second grade teacher, Sister Claire Marie Meyer never hesitated to hit us for doing bad things, like coloring outside the lines in art class. She would hit us with whatever she had conveniently in her hand, which could be a ruler, or the handle of a scissors. If she didn't have anything in her hand, she would just turn around her big fat nun ring and slap us upside the back of the head with the stone.
Again, we were in second grade. Find your nearest 8 year old and start whacking them over the head with solid objects.
Talk about a coward.
But at least she never desicrated a host, right?
Posted by: JT Eberhard | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
Good riddance. Well done Dr. Myers. You are appropriately brave, and your arguments are sensible and well-written.
Tonight, we shall toast your name in Springfield.
JT
Posted by: Kim | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
Well done PZ. At least you are consistent, and it is good that you treat Evangelical Atheism the same way as Evangelical Catholicism........
Posted by: stevogvsu | July 24, 2008 2:45 PM
PZ,
This night I will drink (copiously) and have sinful vigorous sex in your honor.
Posted by: Mike B | July 24, 2008 2:46 PM
Well done PZ; it proves that atheists have more compassion and forgiveness than all the religions combined.
Posted by: llewelly | July 24, 2008 2:46 PM
Uhh... Is there a weird sect of Catholicism which circumcises the heart?Posted by: DaveH | July 24, 2008 2:46 PM
PZ MYERS WILL DIE...eventually, and, emmm...that will be the end of it for him, like everyone else. Personally, if I'm still around at the time, I will mourn the passing of a great educator. Slainte mha!
Posted by: Ken E. | July 24, 2008 2:46 PM
I've been following this a bit but, I'm sorry, religion just isn't worth all this effort.
Posted by: HumanisticJones | July 24, 2008 2:46 PM
I have to say, I think the high point of all of this was the pages from TGD in the trash with everything else. One could have attempted to hamstring your argument of holding nothing sacred by claiming that you can dish it out, but not take it. However, I think that it would have been more impacting if you had done this with Origin of Species... you know... since we Atheists apparently worship Darwin.
Bravo for the wonderful post before that unsurprisingly anti-climactic picture of trash in a trash can.
Posted by: OneMadClown | July 24, 2008 2:47 PM
Bravo, Professor.
Posted by: SC | July 24, 2008 2:47 PM
I wouldn't mind one of those, if they're just sitting around. :)
Posted by: GAtheist | July 24, 2008 2:47 PM
Funny how Donohue threatened to tell CAIR that PZ was going to desecrate a Koran when it was his band of cracker crusaders that were the ones demanding PZ do it...
Posted by: Guido | July 24, 2008 2:47 PM
Great.
Excellent.
Now, all they have to do is pray. Right? The Lord listens to them
Right?
Come on, people, stop writing e-mails. Have TRUE faith.
Posted by: Preston | July 24, 2008 2:48 PM
Cool. It is, indeed, just a cracker.
And I'm glad you included some pages from the God Delusion, to emphasize the idiocy of holding ANYTHING sacred.
Posted by: Ryan F Stello | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
Amazingly well put.
Now, hopefully, sanity will return here.....maybe with the help of a ban hammer.
Posted by: The skepTick | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
Let freedom ring.
Posted by: unicow | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
Wonderful post. Wonderful desecration.
Can we talk about cephalopods now?
Posted by: gir | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
Zombie jebus cracker will eat your brains.
Posted by: Bryan | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
Pete Rooke #221
"And still no one has substantively countered my analogies. I'm not surprised."
And the conceit of the faithful continues...
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 2:49 PM
PZ,
surprisingly, I have to say, seing this picture: I really don't care about this desecregation-thing.
But you should think about seperating your biological waste from paper. I don't know how that is handled in the U.S. but here in Germany they would tell me to keep my garbage if I don't care for recycling (there are actual laws about that). That in fact I found much more offensive than the desecregation (though, of course, hardly offensive at all).
But the Koran and the cracker - It just so doesn't concern me. What deluded moron could possible care about that? I am afraid, we are to see...
Wish you luck,
Andy
Posted by: arensb | July 24, 2008 2:50 PM
I see no response yet from either Bill Donohue (d/b/a the Catholic League) or Richard Dawkins.
Anyone wanna bet which one has more important things to do than comment on this, like wash the dog, and which one will throw a tantrum as soon as he recovers from the vapors?
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 2:50 PM
You know what would be nice is a substantive post right about now.
This whole cracker business is too meaningless, and I hope that it will die down soon. It's hard to believe that either side can invest as many electrons to this business as they have.
Something meaningful on this blog would be most welcome right now.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: OctoberMermaid | July 24, 2008 2:50 PM
Jesus?
Jesus!?
JESUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUS!
Posted by: Kent | July 24, 2008 2:50 PM
Alah Akbar alert
This website link will be given to all the radical jihadis on youtube. You wanted attention so now you will get it.
Second rate, anybody can come university attention seeker will now get attention from the "religion of peace"
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Fuck. A nail through a cracker is very mild in comparison with the
thingspeople the Catholics were fond of putting them through. I don't think Bruno and Vanini appreciated the sharp metal objects.Here's a short list of things which are not goddamned crackers.
Posted by: Kenny | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Absolutely brilliant! Of all the myriad ways I imagined you could deal with this cracker, I can't think of a more appropriate ending.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
PZ, that was one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read, thank you so much for this!
Congratulations on the desecration, I hope it leads to mass cracker killings all around the nation.
Posted by: Snark | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Well done! My salutations.
Posted by: JustaTech | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Oh no PZ! Now the librarians will be after you. Nancy Pearl will lead them in their charge on you and terrify you with their "sushing action". Lo, feel the ground tremble! *Much humor* Seriously, good job.
Posted by: Morris | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Thanks for your enlighting us.
Posted by: The skepTick | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Let freedom ring.
Posted by: waldteufel | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Thanks, P.Z.
This was one of your very best posts.
Posted by: Interested reader | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Hmm... some smart guy. Talk about being totally moronic, I can only think of God's mercy toward this guy is going to be a baseball bat to his head so he finally gets it through that head of his that the Eucharist is Jesus.
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 2:51 PM
Strange, I thought everyone here looked for compelling evidence for everything before coming to a conclusion. There's no evidence given by Dr. Myers that this host was actually consecrated. I, for one, don't believe it.
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 2:52 PM
Won't Way of the Master be upset that you desecrated a banana?
Posted by: Fiziker | July 24, 2008 2:52 PM
Still seems a little too complicated for what it's worth. I think it was the right choice to go for something simple. As I was reading, I thought that flushing it down the toilet might be appropriately simple, but I realized that God might smite you by backing up your toilet.
Well done, PZ!
Posted by: Vince | July 24, 2008 2:52 PM
Well done Prof. Myers. I will raise a glass of Jack Daniels to you.
So when is this going to get national press coverage? NY Times? The Today Show?...oh forget it. Random thoughts seep out now and then.
Posted by: Michael Edmondson | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Wow. I may have to make an animation of this...
Posted by: Ken Cope | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Well done. Nothing is sacred. No idea is above challenge. In the words of Lenny Bruce, "Everybody's ass is up for grabs." At first it appears too studied to achieve that epic Zen casualness, but the randomness of coffee grounds, rusty nail (I wonder if Luther used a rusty nail to pound his message into the church door?) and overripe banana peel really tie it together. Titling the entire mess a God Delusion simultaneously twits and pays homage to the Zen Roshi of Atheism. What you did to the cracker is an apt punishment and a victimless crime.
Here's to the day when it can truly be said that religion is just dessert. As pictured, it sure looks like an ugly mess of a main course.
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
I'm proud humanity also consists of people like you, Mr Myers. Now, up to us to act with intelligence and humor.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
PZ, that was one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read, thank you so much for this!
Congratulations on the desecration, I hope it leads to mass cracker killings all around the nation.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
I've been trying to think of a suitable analogy - the closest I got was taking a sacred Hindu cow and making a decent barbeque from it in front of the temple.
FAIL. If you haven't noticed, this is happening on his blog, which does not show up by magic on people's computers. They have to come here to see it. The proper analogy would be having a barbeque at his own house. I'm sure no good Catholic has ever had a barbeque at their house before, out of concern for offending Hindus, right?
Posted by: The skepTick | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Let freedom ring.
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
PZ,
surprisingly, I have to say, seing this picture: I really don't care about this desecregation-thing.
But you should think about seperating your biological waste from paper. I don't know how that is handled in the U.S. but here in Germany they would tell me to keep my garbage if I don't care for recycling (there are actual laws about that). That in fact I found much more offensive than the desecregation (though, of course, hardly offensive at all).
But the Koran and the cracker - It just so doesn't concern me. What deluded moron could possible care about that? I am afraid, we are to see...
Wish you luck,
Andy
Posted by: Macron | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
You should have treated it like the cracker that it is and just eaten it for a snack.
Posted by: someone221 | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Hmm... some smart guy. Talk about being totally stupid, I can only think of God's mercy toward this guy is going to be a baseball bat to his head so he finally gets it through that head of his that the Eucharist is Jesus.
Posted by: sQuee. | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
Bravo. I generally thought all of this was well done and am quite pleased how the ending came about. There was definite proof that it occurred, although the cracker blends into the pages in the picture. You have to find the nail, then look for the cracker on the nail. I normally wouldn't have agreed with the nail, seemed a tad overboard, but made it very easy to see that there was indeed a dry, tasteless looking cracker at the end of said nail.
All in all, bravo.
Posted by: Inky | July 24, 2008 2:53 PM
*Standing ovation*
Nicely done; and I mean the text.
I didn't give a crap what you did with what.
Posted by: Kenny | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
Absolutely brilliant! Of all the myriad ways I imagined you could deal with this cracker, I can't think of a more appropriate ending.
Posted by: mk | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
For Michelle at #205
That was funny as hell! Thanks for the crack up.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
PZ:
Nor any insubstantial difference, either, no?
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
It's all just stuff. That says it all.
Posted by: MrMarkAZ | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
"Class dismissed."
Posted by: RamblinDude | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
Well done.
Posted by: NoAstronomer | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
Nice move including the God Delusion, that was a surprise.
Posted by: Cleon | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
You know, I had a very similar thought.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 2:54 PM
I totally know what you mean. He's worse than those devil-spawn children who claimed to be molested just to give the church a black-eye, or those who claim that Galileo was excommunicated and held under house arrest for claiming that the Earth was not the centre of the solar system, when in fact it was Galileo who persecuted those scientific men of God in the Vatican. In fact, the world is so hostile to Catholics that, fearing more repercussions like the Crusades (a Freemason frame job), the Vatican didn't feel safe coming out with their heliocentric findings until 1992.
Besides, no one's ever been able to prove Mary wasn't a virgin and why would so many people risk their lives for a lie if the bible isn't true and what about frozen waterfalls and how come nobody's ever seen a consecrated host evolve into a pumpernickel? I can't wait to see how you Myers-ists try to deny God's love when you're all burning in Hell for eternity!
Posted by: dale | July 24, 2008 2:55 PM
Dominoes Nabisco, et cum sirit tu tuo.
Posted by: Janus | July 24, 2008 2:55 PM
Brilliant post, PZ. We're very lucky to have you as one of the champions of reason.
Posted by: Fiziker | July 24, 2008 2:55 PM
Still seems a little too complicated for what it's worth. I think it was the right choice to go for something simple. As I was reading, I thought that flushing it down the toilet might be appropriately simple, but I realized that God might smite you by backing up your toilet.
Well done, PZ! I'm glad that no blood squirted out of the host when you stabbed it.
Posted by: Guido | July 24, 2008 2:55 PM
Great.
Excellent.
Now, all they have to do is pray. Right? The Lord listens to them
Right?
Come on, people, stop writing e-mails. Have TRUE faith.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:55 PM
I would find that totally funny... If I could figure out if you're serious or joking.I'll go with joking cuz that's a great parody cartoon you just described there. :) (Cuz if you're serious... That's not very christian of you!)
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
PZ,
surprisingly, I have to say, seing this picture: I really don't care about this desecregation-thing.
But you should think about seperating your biological waste from paper. I don't know how that is handled in the U.S. but here in Germany they would tell me to keep my garbage if I don't care for recycling (there are actual laws about that). That in fact I found much more offensive than the desecregation (though, of course, hardly offensive at all).
But the Koran and the cracker - It just so doesn't concern me. What deluded moron could possible care about that? I am afraid, we are to see...
Wish you luck,
Andy
Posted by: Andrés Diplotti | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
* golf clap *
Posted by: Ash | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
beautifully written, beautifully 'executed'. thank you Professor.
Posted by: Dahan | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
Why'd ya have to do that to a nail! As a designer and builder, don't you know what that nail represents to me! What that symbolizes? Damn you! I'd rather you would have come over and skinned my cats than to defile the sacred nail. I'll be praying to the almighty hammer for you.
Ok, with that, keep up the excellent blog PZ. Thanks.
Posted by: MrMarkAZ | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
"Class dismissed."
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
I just want to throw in my support for a job well done, PZ. Throwing away those items harms no one, and you've at least brought the issue of freedom of speech to the forefront of a lot of people's minds, right where it needs to be. Most of those people have been Catholics though, since the majority of atheists already favor and defend free speech regularly. Now we just have to wait and see if there are any Catholic Leaguers out there who poses the ability to look at this situation rationally and realize that you had, and continue to have, all the right in the world to perform this act.
Posted by: thegomezsymbol | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
Oh man, you desecrated coffee?
You will sure burn in hell for that one!
Hurray for a good set of... gills.
Posted by: mayhempix | July 24, 2008 2:56 PM
You "nailed it" PZ.
Now we wait for the crucifying to come from Donawhore, et al.
Posted by: Jeff Arnold | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
BRAVO!
Posted by: Longtime Lurker | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
You ripped up a copy of "The God Delusion"? Richard Dawkins will surely strike you down with a great bolt of NOTHING!
Posted by: Jeff Arnold | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
BRAVO!
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
Michelle: "Analogies? Which crazy one were you again? There's so many we lost track."
An uncomfortable truth still remains a truth. Here is the compilation:
1) Suppose you were a milkman with rotting teeth and cankerous lips. Before delivering each milk bottle you would take a swig and place it on the doorstep. You continued to abuse you privileged access to other people's milk for years. Then one day you decide to retire. Before you leave however, you let all of your customers know what you've been engaged in by letter while also leaving a picture of your cankerous mouth under each bottle. You have gleefully proclaimed your actions to all who will listen. No one was physically harmed and yet every customer (read: Catholic) affected feels deeply violated and abused. PZ Myers is effectively that milkman.
2) Suppose your are an embalmer. You are busy embalming a person for an open coffin ceremony and you decide to pilfer there lush locks of blonde hair for the construction of high class wigs (a business you have going on the side).
This person happens to be a Sikh. In order to hide the fact you have stolen their hair you then purchase a cheap synthetic wig and replace it. In the small print of the contract (which the distraught family don't read carefully enough) you make mention of this.
After the event you then decide to publicize this gleefully on a blog. No physical harm has been done to either person and yet I would argue that this is equivalent to PZ Myer's theft and subsequent desecration of the Eucharist publicized on his blog (of which extra web traffic generates money).
3) Young ladies like to wear an item of clothing called a mini-skirt these days. The material is often sheer and by its definition does not even come close to covering the knee roll.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniskirt)
Now if someone chooses to wear such an item it does not in the least bit make rape and sexual abuse permissible despite the fact that the odds increase exponentially. In both the eyes of the secular law and of my religion the assailants are still just as culpable.
So merely because Catholicism may seem like a remarkably soft target for PZ Myers (he has since been roped into desecrating the Koran) he is still as culpable as someone who chooses to attack say the more benign and watered down religions of Quakerism/Unitarian-Universalism.
4) Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
Now desecrating the Eucharist would have the same effect as desecrating that book and posting the evidence in glee.
Posted by: Inky | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
*Standing ovation*
Nicely done; and I mean the text.
I didn't give a crap what you did with what.
Posted by: Jay | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
That's just it. These people live their lives based on the "what if". They don't actually believe, but they are scared into acting as if they do because they are afraid of being wrong.
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
I'm proud humanity also consists of people like you, Mr Myers. Now, up to us to act with intelligence and humor.
Posted by: Jon | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
Mercy. You're doing it wrong.
Posted by: Gus C | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
Nothing must be held sacred.
Exactly!! People come up to me and say they respect that I am atheist. I tell them to fucken not!
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
Excellent! Congratulations! You may be on the path to recovery. Just start subjecting ALL ideas that are presented to you to this very same treatment. It may feel a little bit funny at first, but you will get used to it. Eventually, you will start abandoning bullshit... until you abandon the last god that you still cling to. This will be good: you will be able to walk around without you security blanket... And it will free your mind.
Posted by: The skepTick | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
Great show. Let freedom ring. Let reasonable minds prevail.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
Wow I think this all caused a terrible server comment lag. Comments are bumping into each other so much that the comments numbers are moving up and down and some comments are being fitted inbetween.
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
PZ,
surprisingly, I have to say, seing this picture: I really don't care about this desecregation-thing.
But you should think about seperating your biological waste from paper. I don't know how that is handled in the U.S. but here in Germany they would tell me to keep my garbage if I don't care for recycling (there are actual laws about that). That in fact I found much more offensive than the desecregation (though, of course, hardly offensive at all).
But the Koran and the cracker - It just so doesn't concern me. What deluded moron could possible care about that? I am afraid, we are to see...
Wish you luck,
Andy
Posted by: Nelson M. | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
I hope we can all get on with our respective lives now.
Posted by: bellerophon | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
PZ,
Good job, brilliantly conceived, spectacularly finished. As said, you deserve a standing ovation for that. A second G&T's hoisted up for you tonight in London. (We can turn this into a flashmob drinking session, people, just a thought.)
I can imagine the Catholics furor now. Either they're gonna go on "demonizing" you, or they're gonna call you a coward because you haven't recorded it live, you don't show proof that the cracker's consecrated, etc. Either way, it's gonna be so much fun to watch.
Thanks PZ, and homage to your big balls of steel.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
I just want to throw in my support for a job well done, PZ. Throwing away those items harms no one, and you've at least brought the issue of freedom of speech to the forefront of a lot of people's minds, right where it needs to be. Most of those people have been Catholics though, since the majority of atheists already favor and defend free speech regularly. Now we just have to wait and see if there are any Catholic Leaguers out there who poses the ability to look at this situation rationally and realize that you had, and continue to have, all the right in the world to perform this act.
Posted by: mayhempix | July 24, 2008 2:58 PM
You "nailed it" PZ.
Now we wait for the crucifying to come from Donawhore, et al.
Posted by: Turdus | July 24, 2008 2:59 PM
Well said PZ. I especially liked the part about "sacrilege to the host" as an excuse to murder non-believers. This blog got a lot of attention from a lot of people, PZ. I think the thing that drives Catholics crazy the most about the whole affair is that YOU DID GET SOME PEOPLE THINKING, especially young people who saw this, in spite of assurances otherwise. That is really what is driving them NUTS!
Posted by: kestrien | July 24, 2008 2:59 PM
Watch out, P.Z., they're coming...
...to pray for you.
"What would he do if Catholics and other Christians, and even sympathetic members of other faiths, turned up en masse on his campus simply to pray quietly for him?"
http://blog.beliefnet.com/crunchycon/2008/07/pz-myers-desecrates-the-euchar.html
For some reason, I think he might stop by to say "hey," then go about his business.
Posted by: Parker | July 24, 2008 2:59 PM
Fantastic end to a fantastically pitiful display of human progression and rational thinking.
I'm glad you desecrated the God Delusion to show that we don't even take our own books that seriously.
Oh but Kirk Cameron's gona be soooo pissed that you trashed his yellow proof of gawd.
Posted by: JackC | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
May I have permission - or is it implied here - to copy your "If I wanted to..." portion of this? Positively spot-on.
JC
Posted by: Kent | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
Alah Akbar alert. ...........Attention getter lol
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Sending this to islamic jihadist websites
Posted by: Tony Phillips | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
I guess I understand why...you see religion as dangerous. Ok I get it, I don't agree but I get it. I see Godlessness as being even more dangerous...and we could go back and forth all day with examples of how the Catholic church did this terrible thing and how communists and other athiest organizations did that terrible thing. (Funny how you left that out of your litany of people who killed in the name of belief.)
But you know what's really funny? Your picture is a fake. I handle unconcecrated hosts every day and concecrated hosts every week, just like the one in your picture. If you even pressed the tip of a nail to a host it would crack into pieces. So that nail sticking right through it is a product of some picture editing software. So I guess you didn't do all you say you did. It makes me wonder if you did any of the other stuff. Interesting...confusing but interesting.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
PZ, that was one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read, thank you so much for this!
Congratulations on the desecration, I hope it leads to mass cracker killings all around the nation.
Posted by: deadvole | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
PZ, will you be my stand-in grandpa when I move to Minnesota? Because I need one as awesomely cool and eloquent as you. Very beautifully handled, that.
Posted by: Vic | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
Dr. Myers, my hat's off to you. That's better than anything I could've dreamed up, and the real cherry on the sundae is that this is one of your best blog posts ever - enlightening, informative, incisive, and ever-so-quotable.
Plus, of course, imagining what the riled-up-hordes will do with the image of the God Delusion 'desecrated' along with their fetish items.
Posted by: Ric | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
I have an uncircumcised heart and an uncircumcised penis, and I'm happy about both.
That was a beautifully written essay, PZ. Screw the stupid cracker.
Posted by: Randy | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
Kent @ #260:
Do you know a lot of "radical jihadis"? Hmmm, expect the NSA and Homeland Security to come down your parents basement stairs any moment.
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
someone221 sez:
Hmm... some smart guy. Talk about being totally stupid, I can only think of God's mercy toward this guy is going to be a baseball bat to his head so he finally gets it through that head of his that the Eucharist is Jesus.
Is that what it took for you, someone221, or were you just naturally mentally deficient enough to believe that a little round cracker is your God? c^_^ɔ
Posted by: thegomezsymbol | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
Oh man, you desecrated coffee?
You will sure burn in hell for that one!
Hurray for a good set of... gills.
Posted by: Ben D | July 24, 2008 3:00 PM
If you believe that truth is relative, why can't you respect what "my truth" is? I believe that the host becomes Jesus. You don't. I respect that you don't believe; I have no issue with your disbelief. I don't make fun of you for not believing. As a fellow human, I would have expected the respect to be reciprocal.
Posted by: Pierre | July 24, 2008 3:01 PM
Magnificent post, PZ. I hope the religiously inclined will
read it carefully. I mean REALLY read it, and understand it,
not just browse the picture and complain. There's nothing
evil here, nothing hateful. Just plain common sense, and
a reminder that freeing ourselves from religion is the
most moral thing that we humans can do. It's just a cracker.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 3:01 PM
It's all just stuff. That says it all.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 3:01 PM
Another echo from an acolyte here. Good work.
"This whole cracker business is too meaningless, and I hope that it will die down soon. It's hard to believe that either side can invest as many electrons to this business as they have."
Right, I'm afraid this blog has become too silly, and I'll 'ave to shut it down.
And the really troublesome part is as it gets more crowded, this thread will end up having even more replies due to that warning message that pops up in times of heavy traffic, and people re-submitting even though they most likely don't have to.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 3:01 PM
Stop posting, Andy! The intertubes are all clogged up. Don't worry, you're getting through multiple times, it just takes awhile.
Posted by: Stark | July 24, 2008 3:01 PM
Well done sir. Well done.
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 3:02 PM
Lovely stuff and nicely done. Good on ya PZ
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 3:02 PM
I'm proud humanity also consists of people like you, Mr Myers. Now, up to us to act with intelligence and humor.
Posted by: chigurh | July 24, 2008 3:02 PM
adding the god delusion was clutch. well done!
Posted by: Bill Dauphin | July 24, 2008 3:02 PM
PZ:
Nor any insubstantial difference, either, no?
Posted by: ash | July 24, 2008 3:02 PM
beautifully written, beautifully 'executed'. thank you professor.
Posted by: thegomezsymbol | July 24, 2008 3:03 PM
Oh man, you desecrated coffee?
You will sure burn in hell for that one!
Hurray for a good set of... gills.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:03 PM
@Tony Phillips
um...No. It's certainly a delicate operation sorta but it's perfectly doable. I actually already poked one of them crackers through. Not a church one, a "candy" one (who the fuck thought "hey let's use theses as candy"!? They're gross!) Yea, there was one on my birthday cake at one time. I poked a candle through it and it stayed in one piece. Honest to "god".
Anyway, if he couldn't do that, why did the church claim back then that the jews were doing it all the time?
Posted by: Dave2 | July 24, 2008 3:03 PM
Pete Rooke wrote:
Pardon me, but where are these analogies to be found? Not on this page, anyway.
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 3:04 PM
I'm so sorry for this repeated post above. It was unintended.
Shame upon me.
Posted by: Cardinal Shrew | July 24, 2008 3:04 PM
PZ,
You should put the remains of that copy of The God Delusion on ebay, it may not be sacred but I for one wouldn't mind owning it.
Posted by: Exitus | July 24, 2008 3:04 PM
Posted by Ticktockman and #178:
perhaps some part of the, er, Holy of Holies separated at a young age.
Just *picture* it, my Catholic friends, chewing over that bit as it transubstantiates in your gullet. Holy indeed
Ha! Nearly sprayed tea accross the room when i read this one.
Hehehe...
Posted by: Noadi | July 24, 2008 3:04 PM
Beautiful job! I don't mean the actual desecration, I honestly don't care much about it other than being happy it's over. What you wrote though is the far more important thing for people to realize. Nothing is sacred or should be taken on faith, question, learn, give respect where it is earned and deserved not where it is demanded. If it takes seeing symbols destroyed for some to wake up and see it than it's worthwhile to do.
Posted by: jb | July 24, 2008 3:04 PM
"They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything."
Amen.
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 3:05 PM
Folks, this happens every time Myers Pharyngulates himself. Just hit the post button once and have faith that it will be carried by His Noodly Appendage to the comments where it belongs.
Posted by: tim gueguen | July 24, 2008 3:05 PM
Waaaaah, PZ is being a big meany by sucking up blog hits for yet another day! Traffic is down on mine, and I just know its because of this whole "cracker" business. This includes the outrage hits, as I have yet to have someone make an angry comment about my post claiming Mark Steyn is full of hot air, or that cocaine use won't make the Barenaked Ladies seem hip and edgy.
Posted by: Turdus | July 24, 2008 3:05 PM
Well said PZ. I especially liked the part about "sacrilege to the host" as an excuse to murder non-believers. This blog got a lot of attention from a lot of people, PZ. I think the thing that drives Catholics crazy the most about the whole affair is that YOU DID GET SOME PEOPLE THINKING, especially young people who saw this, in spite of assurances otherwise. That is really what is driving them NUTS!
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 3:05 PM
Now if someone chooses to wear such an item it does not in the least bit make rape and sexual abuse permissible despite the fact that the odds increase exponentially.
OH MY NON-EXISTENT GOD NO IT DOESN'T. Pete, feel free to have your bizarre and irrelevant analogies, but don't be spreading actual untruths. Clothing has nothing do do with frequency of rape. Amazingly enough, the only thing that correlates with probability of rape is the presence of a rapist. And using something as horrendous as rape as analogy to an event involving throwing a cracker in the trash can is so wrong I can't even express my contempt that you tried.
Posted by: mark | July 24, 2008 3:06 PM
Pete at #310: There is nothing to respond to; what you've written is simply irrelevant nonsense.
I, too, cringe at the desecration of books!
Posted by: Melanogaster | July 24, 2008 3:06 PM
This was way cool. Well done!
Posted by: Exitus | July 24, 2008 3:06 PM
When I started writing my last comment, there were 214 posts. By the time the server accepted it there were 356. Wow.
Posted by: Cat's Staff | July 24, 2008 3:06 PM
Oh come on...'third rate'....U of M Morris is better then that!
Posted by: Ben | July 24, 2008 3:06 PM
PZ, are we still on to go unicorn hunting this fall?
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:07 PM
Holy motherfucking christ, John, get a fucking life you spammer!
How come there's no character limit on this blog anyway?!
Posted by: Nina in London | July 24, 2008 3:07 PM
P Z Myers in post #200 wrote
"Not that there's any substantial difference between the consecrated and unconsecrated version."
Hey, PZ is a comedian! To us Catholics, transubstantiation is *exactly* the difference. It is a wafer of wheat with the exactly the same form and taste as before the consecration, but after consecration the form is still of wheat but the substance is now the Body of Christ.
To share the bread is wonderful and beautiful sacrament, to those that believe - and surely worthy of respect. Those that eat the host are proclaiming "I am part of the Church and I believe in what it teaches and we are all one in Christ."
This incident is not going to damage the Church and I hope that it will strengthen people's faith and encourage people to find out about the Catholic faith in all its richness.
Incidentally, the Brompton Oratory, scene of the theft, is very beautiful and any visitors will enjoy the tranquility and reverent atmosphere, but please in future treat it and those that serve and worship there with respect.
Anyway, I would think that Jesus is having a good chuckle at all this. After all, he was renowned for eating with sinners rather than those who proclaimed themselves to be holy, the Gospels are full of dinners indoors and out. His message was one of forgiveness and encouragement.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 3:07 PM
Well Done, PZ!
You might want to start worrying about that banana, though.
Next thing you know, Ray Comfort & Kirk Cameron are going to come to Morris & paper your house with $1,000,000 bill tracts. See what you have started now?
By the way, I knew I was right a couple of threads back when I called out that coward to prove that UM Morris is a 4th tier University, as he so inaccuratly called it.
ps - I still think the Viking funeral would have been comical, yet dignified.
pps- The focus group results on ChristoCracker-Desecratingly Delicious haven't scored as high as we had hoped, so we sent the package down to marketing, & they have really done an outstanding job to upscale the product.
Announcing - CHRISTESSENCE Table Wafers - Baked in the Spirit
We're still working on the whole ad package, kind of a riff on the Keebler elves,
only with angels - what do you think?
...
..
.
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 3:07 PM
Lovely stuff, well done PZ
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 3:07 PM
It's the iron-fortified cracker.
By the way, to those offended, note what the Church itself did about all of this. Nothing.
Really, it does no good for the church (though it might convince you that you're good) to make a big deal about a common offense. I'm sure that much "worse" is done by many out of the public eye, so that you're not protesting the violation so much as the fact that it is well-known. Unfortunately (and I'm serious, I wish it had not been hyped), you are thereby ensuring that it will be even more well-known.
I wouldn't have done it, but that's my judgment, not to be confused with PZ's. I suggest giving it a rest.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Longtime Lurker | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
Dear Mr Rooke, WTF is up with your miniskirt/rape obsession? You are a creep of the greatest magnitude.
Just to do some gratuitous priest-bashing... how many of those young male victims were wearing miniskirts, Mr Rooke?
Posted by: Kenny | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
Absolutely brilliant! Of all the myriad ways I imagined you could deal with this cracker, I can't think of a more appropriate ending.
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
Ale #316:
"Just start subjecting ALL ideas that are presented to you to this very same treatment."
Ahh, but I do. I will grant Dr. Myers the same level of evidence I accept from the apostles and their disciples: if an actual eyewitness (e.g. the person who gave him the host) or someone with direct contact with the eyewitness (e.g., presumably, Dr. Myers himself), is willing to die rather than recant his claim that the host was consecrated, I will be convinced that it was, in fact, consecrated.
Posted by: octopod | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
Couldn't have been done with any more style or substance. PZ, you're awesome.
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
whoops apology for repeated posts, the servers seem to have reached their final hour.
Posted by: merkin j. pus-tart | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
perfect . . .
Posted by: Jonathan | July 24, 2008 3:08 PM
I am shocked and outraged by your treatment of The God Delusion. That was unnecessary and hurtful to my beliefs.
Now, I'll have to kill you in some painful and horrific way. I'm a little busy at work right now, so it might have to wait. hmmm. Come to think of it, I'm on the west coast, so it's a little far for me to travel to... whatever state you're in. I hear there's states other than California and Los Vegas, but I don't know what they are... It would really help if you came here. Perhaps I could give you a good killing over lunch. I know a fantastic sushi place you'll just love. Tuesdays and Thursdays are best for me. Just give your number to my people, and they'll set something up for us.
Thank you for your immediate attention to this matter.
Jonathan
Posted by: jfatz | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
How DARE you desecrate the holy writ of our Lord and Savior, Richard Dawkins? You will surely burn! BURRRRRN!
...you know. If you, like... go to the beach. And don't bring suntan lotion.
Posted by: abeja | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
Excellent!
Posted by: Steve P. | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
A post for the ages.
Posted by: pksp | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
I don't know why you had to waste a perfectly good copy of The God Delusion to prove your point? At least that book is geared towards opening minds.
With that said, well done.
Posted by: 5ive | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
@106
"The God Delusion is about what we don't believe; the Eucharist and the Koran are symbols of what other people do believe. I would've preferred a genuine work of science to be among the desecratees.
Vivek"
Wouldn't the banana count since it has been scientifically engineered to reach its current edible-tasty state? Not to mention the trash can itself and the book pages and the ink on the pages and the coffee grounds and the rust reaction with the metals of the nail are a direct "symbol" of "scientism", wait, the cracker, too, used science to be "created". Don't forget about the breath PZ was exhaling and inhaling while he did this, that counts as science as well.
I guess we desecrate science every freaking day.
Posted by: Chuck Lunney | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
Not that there's any substantial difference between the consecrated and unconsecrated version
Wait, PZ! Didn't you mean there isn't any TRANSsubstantial difference?
And I heartily applaud including part of The God Delusion in this "public desecration". About the only thing missing was a page from Origin of the Species. Oh well -- can't have everything. Besides, it looked like your trashcan was getting full.
The prologue was worth the price of admission!
Congratulations on a spectacular non-event of less-than-epic proportions.
Posted by: Dr Doctor | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
John
Have you ever heard of keeping things brief?
PZ Myers, you turned this into an object lesson. Bravo.
Posted by: Alexander Treseder | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
imagine reading all of #355 and staying awake.
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 3:09 PM
John,
Nice copypasta. Do you feel better now?
Posted by: Spook | July 24, 2008 3:10 PM
Shorter #355:
"blah blah magic man blah blah CRACKERS blah blah"
Posted by: BG | July 24, 2008 3:10 PM
PZ - it'd be cool if the entire episode could be recapped with highlights so I can pass it along (like to my kids) without making people wade through 1,000s of comments.
My only fear is that PZ has jumped the shark.
Posted by: Mark | July 24, 2008 3:10 PM
So, John at #355, are the contorted scribblings of deluded old men supposed to scare us?
Posted by: Matthew | July 24, 2008 3:10 PM
"No desecration would have taken place were the host not consecrated, and thus no Catholic would even bother to notice. Yet, PZ claims the host was consecrated. Let him prove hi8s claim. Nobody has to believe it is the body of Christ for the act of consecration is a public act perfomed by a Catholic priest.
So, where's the proof, or is this place not about science after all?"
TG, that's a silly detail. The fact that the presence or absence of hand-waving and Latin mumbling near the cracker has any affect on whether Catholics should be pissed off or not just goes to highlight how incredibly stupid this mythology really is.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
Just saw the proof video! This is not a matter of faith anymore! Thanks PZ, thanks mysterious dude! GOOD JOB!
Posted by: Ric | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
Hey PZ, can you delete that long bullshit post that John made?
Posted by: Eric | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
@ #373
That is only evidence for the strength of their beliefs. It's not evidence for the truth of their beliefs.
Posted by: Savagemutt | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
Very nice post. And you've handled the whole incident with remarkable restraint.
Posted by: Happy Girl 300 | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
The only sacrilege in this case is a possible waste of food calories. If it had been a jar of peanut butter, that would have been MUCH worse.
Posted by: Mohamed(real) | July 24, 2008 3:11 PM
What a wild ride!
Posted by: Erasmussimo | July 24, 2008 3:12 PM
I have been following this brouhaha with mixed feelings. On the one hand, I agree that PZ Myers' actions have instructive value; sometimes it's salutary for somebody to blatantly challenge our assumptions in a flamboyant fashion. On the other hand, I am uncomfortable with deliberate attempts to hurt other people's feelings. Let's face it, Mr. Myers' actions do hurt the feelings of Catholics and are intended to do so. Does the educational value of Mr. Myers' actions outweigh the emotional hurt inflicted? I don't know. It is fundamental to human nature that nobody learns without some pain. The advance of civil rights in the 1960s took place only by inflicting some pain upon racists. It was justifiable because the pain they inflicted through their racism was greater than the emotional discomfort that was wrought upon them to change their ways. But does the diffuse injury to society inflicted by religion justify the specific emotional pain the Mr. Myers visits upon Catholics? I don't know.
My greatest concern, however, is not with the mainstream reaction to Mr. Myers' actions, but with the reactions from the wingnuts. There will surely be Catholics who react with ugly ferocity, and these few may further polarize the cultural response. Mr. Myers is taking a significant risk here; while I admire his courage, I fear that violence directed against him will polarize the situation and make healthy progress more difficult.
There is an opportunity for a positive result in all this: if members of the Catholic community firmly and loudly declare that the essence of Christianity demands that Catholics turn the other cheek and love Mr. Myers as much as they love themselves, then the nobler side of religion will be asserted and perhaps some progress will be made against the ignoble side of religion. At this point, the ball is in their court. The challenge has been placed upon them: is Catholicism a religion of love or a superstitious tribe? I retain some small optimism that perhaps the outcome will a happy one.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 3:12 PM
It's all just stuff. That says it all.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 3:12 PM
John (#355), thanks for the spam, but next time please just provide a link. Several screens of copying and pasting is a bit much.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 3:13 PM
PZ, that was one of the most brilliant posts I have ever read, thank you so much for this!
Congratulations on the desecration, I hope it leads to mass cracker killings all around the nation.
Posted by: drjimmy | July 24, 2008 3:13 PM
Well done, PZ. A wonderful essay and an appropriate final act to the drama.
Posted by: Mohamed | July 24, 2008 3:13 PM
What a wild ride!
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 3:13 PM
Or rather, replace it with a link. No censorship, it's just that no one's going to read it, hence it is so much spamming.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 3:13 PM
@John (www.catholic.com)
Come on, man! That was infantile. Am I posting the entire TimeCube page over at your blog? No, I did not think so... So why do you do it here?
Posted by: sQuee. | July 24, 2008 3:14 PM
Bravo. I generally thought all of this was well done and am quite pleased how the ending came about. There was definite proof that it occurred, although the cracker blends into the pages in the picture. You have to find the nail, then look for the cracker on the nail. I normally wouldn't have agreed with the nail, seemed a tad overboard, but made it very easy to see that there was indeed a dry, tasteless looking cracker at the end of said nail.
All in all, bravo.
Posted by: Sarcastro | July 24, 2008 3:14 PM
if you mean germany as a catholic nation 70 years ago, that's wrong, germany was (is) majority protestant (more then than now, as more secular germans have protestant than catholic background).
#1: Spain and Poland are both better contenders for what PZ was rattling on about.
#2: Look up the difference between 'majority' and 'plurality'. The latter is what Protestants in Germany are. The former is what they are not.
In fact, the single largest Christian denomination in Germany is Catholicism. Only when all Protestant denominations are added together do they outnumber the Catholics. And not by a whole lot.
Posted by: Joe | July 24, 2008 3:14 PM
The scene looks carefully staged what with the nail over two title pages that are facing us with the other trash off to the side. You are a schemer, PZ.
Posted by: sil-chan | July 24, 2008 3:15 PM
I think its time to impliment a maximum limit to the length of a post due to people like John. Here I was going along reading posts and BAM... A huge pile of words fell on me >.>
Posted by: Doubting Foo | July 24, 2008 3:15 PM
I agree with a few others above...you should have included the title page from Origin of Species...
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 3:15 PM
Fuck you, John.
Posted by: Randy! | July 24, 2008 3:15 PM
Still working my way through the comments but wanted to get my "Bravo!" in here while the thread was still open.
I really like that any Catholic furbrains will have to try to read through the history of their religion before getting to the meat of the post. Perhaps one of them will get a bit of enlightenment...
Posted by: sQuee. | July 24, 2008 3:15 PM
Bravo. I generally thought all of this was well done and am quite pleased how the ending came about. There was definite proof that it occurred, although the cracker blends into the pages in the picture. You have to find the nail, then look for the cracker on the nail. I normally wouldn't have agreed with the nail, seemed a tad overboard, but made it very easy to see that there was indeed a dry, tasteless looking cracker at the end of said nail.
All in all, bravo.
Oh, and as a note: if a cracker is actually the body of someone (regardless of whom), Catholics are cannibals and should be thrown in jail. There have been a few cannibals in the past century who have claimed that they did it to become closer to God. Lovely, lovely religion you people have going on. Yeesh.
Posted by: Rebecca Watson | July 24, 2008 3:16 PM
Just chiming in to add my "nicely done," PZ. Well-written and educational response.
Posted by: ihatevi | July 24, 2008 3:16 PM
#79 - LOL!!
Posted by: ErikFK | July 24, 2008 3:16 PM
#355 John: nice copy and paste job. Now please go preach your neighbor's cows - and don't forget to pray for them.
To the actual topic: I'm impressed. PZ gave the whole story a excellent final turn, I can identify myself with - though I'm certainly far more respectful of religions than he is.
Posted by: TS Loosli | July 24, 2008 3:16 PM
Well Done PZ. Let the religious beat thier chests and stand on their hind legs. Unlike real apes, they are nothing to fear.
Kudos,
TS
Posted by: Bachalon | July 24, 2008 3:17 PM
Well said, Professor. Thank you.
Posted by: Philip H. | July 24, 2008 3:18 PM
"Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanities' knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind."
If you actually read Christian Scripture, you will see Jesus encouraging his followers to do EXACTLY THIS. That fact that humans, in all our wonderful wisdom, ignore Jesus call and teaching, doesn't mean he isn't right. He ate, afterall, with tax collectors and prostitutes, some of the most reviled people of his day.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:18 PM
John, go touch yourself, you're annoying.
Posted by: Voltaire | July 24, 2008 3:19 PM
Quite possibly the most elegant essay I've read this year. Thank you, sir.
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 3:19 PM
Again with the copypasta, John?
Thanks for verifying you have nothing to contribute. I was going to ask you to discuss what you had posted, but now I see you're not really equipped for that sort of rational discussion.
PZ, could you please remove John's novels from the comments page? Thx.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 3:19 PM
In the great ledger sheet of Catholicism's virtues and vices, history would seem to trump optimism every time.
Posted by: qbsmd | July 24, 2008 3:19 PM
Does this count as art? You might be able to get someone to buy your trash can.
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 3:19 PM
It is appropriate that PZ destroyed books. Recall the library of Alexandria was burned by religious fanatics. I believe that the Catholic Church even canonized someone for the deed.
Posted by: Juan | July 24, 2008 3:20 PM
PZ is the best!
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 3:20 PM
@#393
Granted. This is why I stipulated that those professing the beliefs be eyewitnesses or have direct contact with eyewitnesses. I tend to believe eyewitness accounts when they are so strongly believed.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 3:20 PM
That is meaningless. It is just an abuse of the English language. What you are in effect saying is that it is both the same and different. That is simply nonsensical. What properties does it have after consecration that it did not have before ? If there are no physical differences then there is no difference. Did you not do science at school or something ? There is an important concept in science, that basically states if you cannot tell two things apart then they are identical.
Posted by: GAtheist | July 24, 2008 3:20 PM
Fuck, we need a block user option. Spammer StJohn is a shitbag.
Posted by: Cardinal Shrew | July 24, 2008 3:21 PM
PZ,
I too would like to add my sentiments before the thread gets too full. Well done!
Posted by: Adrienne | July 24, 2008 3:21 PM
Hey, I think I see the face of Jesus weeping in the banana peel. Seriously, though, I'm glad this is over. Enough of Wafergate.
Posted by: Anthony | July 24, 2008 3:21 PM
Am I the only one that thinks John's long ass post can be aptly characterized as WHITE NOISE?
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 3:21 PM
Someone's IP address needs to be banned.
Fucktard.
Posted by: lytefoot | July 24, 2008 3:22 PM
Wow... attacking FOUR sacred cows at once! The communion, the koran, the god delusion, and English grammar. I believe you meant to say "Humanity's knowledge," that is, the knowledge of just one humanity (say hooray to our friend, the collective noun!).
Just kidding with the spelling flame, of course--though if there's one thing that inflames my irrationality it's the desecration of the sacred apostrophe. Very good post, well written, showing excellent insight into the history of the issue--I only wish Xians showed as much insight into the history of their religion. Wanted to chime in and and that, ha ha, I won the betting pool around here, I suspected you'd throw it in the trash.
This whole thing started out as kind of childish, but it ended up fairly moving. Like a lot of your more thoughtful pieces, it ended up coming across as moving in the same way that a good church service does. (Note: I was raised Unitarian, this has shaped my perception of the way a church service Should Be. If you don't argue about it at least all the way home afterward, it wasn't any good.)
Good luck, PZ. Hope none of the violent crazies are also motivated. You might want to consider hiring a ninja.
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 3:22 PM
What kind of idiot is this? He did it again! 3 times now!
Killfile Dungeon!
Posted by: J.D. Hutton | July 24, 2008 3:22 PM
John:
tl;dr
Posted by: H.H. | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
Delete the spammer(s), please. It is clear that when pressed to think for themselves, they resort to drowning themselves in mind-numbing blocks of meaningless text. Fine, but no reason the rest of us need to drown as well.
Posted by: ryanm | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
fuckin' A. Bravo, PZ. Though significant on a symbolic level, what you have done is so trivial, no, of no import WHATSOEVER compared to the vile barbarism perpetrated in the name of Catholicism. I single that one out just because they're the only ones who give a fuck about this goddamn cracker, and they've been so gracious as to show through their recent comments that vile barbarism is apparently alive and well in the ranks of the faithful. Good luck, and Reason-speed.
Posted by: Atticus | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
Love it
Posted by: ThirtyFiveUp | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
As always, PZ is a teacher. And an accomplished writer. I did not know about the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 which led to repeated murders of Jews. Murdered because superstitious Christians believed bread could be Jesus.
By the way, I eagerly await publication of his book.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
"No way! Bananas have to be brown to taste right. Chiquita says so!"
All right, NOW we got blasphemy on our hands. Bananas are best when they have just a little green still on them. Only the fool in his heart says otherwise.
(Although browned bananas are still useful for making things like banana bread.)
Posted by: Kevin L. | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
You know, for all this gnashing of teeth over "where's the proof of consecration?" or "I thought this site was about SCIENCE and EVIDENCE" and "you're just accepting Myers' word on FAITH that it was real," whatever... There's one critical difference between accepting the word of, say, a priest, and accepting the word of PZ. PZ, unlike the priest, has demonstrated frequently and repeatedly that he is honest and credible, and, speaking for myself, I have no reason to doubt him now. Similarly, unlike, say, a religious zealout, Pharyngula enthusiasts, if faced with EVIDENCE that their trust was misplaced, will own up to their error.
A very nice post, PZ - a fitting way to end the madness. Now: more cephalopods, please! :)
Posted by: AaronSTL | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
Well played, PZ but I still think you should have copied some text from the Koran onto the cracker and fed it to a willing Jewish person...maybe along with some bacon and a good beer.
Posted by: eguy | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
I love the Monty Python references. Although I disagree with your need provoke catholics I would agree with most of what you said. I mean death treats over a cracker. You can't make this stuff up.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
The spammer is a sock puppet. He's used at least 3 names. I'm strongly against censorship, but I don't think deleting spam and deleting sock puppets is censorship.
Posted by: Eric | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
@ #428
Yet in the case of Christianity you accept edited, translated, censored versions of second- or third-hand (or possibly more) eyewitness testimony.
One thing people are missing here is that there's two competing theories - that it was consecrated, or that it wasn't - and you need to compare the evidence for the two, not just demand evidence for one until it meets your expectations.
If you think it wasn't consecrated, present your evidence.
Posted by: Exitus | July 24, 2008 3:23 PM
Ye Gods, this 'John' bloke is getting rather annoying. To the Dungeon with him!
Exitus
Posted by: Jolly Bloger | July 24, 2008 3:24 PM
PZ, this insult will not stand. I can't believe you did something so horrible to the God Delusion! I expect an apology immediately.
http://jollybloger.blogspot.com/2008/07/pz-has-gone-too-far.html
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 3:24 PM
Come on, PZ! Spamming, morphing, insipidity, godbotting... this must be a record: The idiot got himself into Dungeon-worthy shape after a handful of posts!
Posted by: Minneapolitian | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
Thank you so much for doing this. You are a hero to anyone who actually uses their brain to think. Another reason for me to be proud of living in liberal Minneapolis is this happened right in my city! Ohhhh, you must plan something new!!!
Posted by: ryanm | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
fuckin' A. Bravo, PZ. Though significant on a symbolic level, what you have done is so trivial, no, of no import WHATSOEVER compared to the vile barbarism perpetrated in the name of Catholicism. I single that one out just because they're the only ones who give a fuck about this goddamn cracker, and they've been so gracious as to show through their recent comments that vile barbarism is apparently alive and well in the ranks of the faithful. Good luck, and Reason-speed.
Posted by: Melinda Dillon | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
Well done!!!
Posted by: gruggach | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
Way to go, PZ! I'm very happy with what you've done. You very eloquently hit the nail on the head.
Posted by: Hap | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
1) I see somebody found out how to cut and paste. How unfortunate.
2) This seems like an appropriate ending. Someone might learn something from it (it wasn't just to annoy people), or at least, know where you stand. Of course, the multithousand post threads indicate that there isn't very much willingness to listen or to learn anything, so the show goes on (sort of).
Although, realizing this, it sounds too much like the dialogue between the kid and Arnold in the desert scene in Terminator 2: "We're not going to make it, are we?"
Posted by: Chris P | July 24, 2008 3:25 PM
Hopefully you will go back through your trash and recycle properly.
Otherwise best thread yet. Another step in dismantling the stupidity of gods.
Posted by: Chicago | July 24, 2008 3:26 PM
For all of you hoping for the long threads of catholics and religious, I laugh! Out of the first 100 I've read there was one, maybe a questionable two. The others, just a bunch of attention starved children, led by a man who is still hoping to get noticed. Bravo, bravo- Out of these post, all of the threads- you yourselves have accounted for 90% of your own grandstanding.
Posted by: Jay | July 24, 2008 3:26 PM
Well done. Kudos.
Posted by: Jochen | July 24, 2008 3:26 PM
I'd still say that turning the flesh of jesus into poop is more offensive. And that's what these catholics are doing every sunday! Unbelievable! Damn cannibals!
Posted by: Jolly Bloger | July 24, 2008 3:26 PM
PZ, this insult will not stand. I can't believe you did something so horrible to the God Delusion! I expect an apology immediately.
http://jollybloger.blogspot.com/2008/07/pz-has-gone-too-far.html
Posted by: ryanm | July 24, 2008 3:27 PM
fuckin' A. Bravo, PZ. Though significant on a symbolic level, what you have done is so trivial, no, of no import WHATSOEVER compared to the vile barbarism perpetrated in the name of Catholicism. I single that one out just because they're the only ones who give a fuck about this goddamn cracker, and they've been so gracious as to show through their recent comments that vile barbarism is apparently alive and well in the ranks of the faithful. Good luck, and Reason-speed.
Posted by: fontinalis | July 24, 2008 3:27 PM
Well played, sir. I raise a glass in your honor. Your words, both well chosen and articulated, almost made the closing image anticlimactic. Almost.
Posted by: Feshy | July 24, 2008 3:27 PM
Well played, PZ, well played.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | July 24, 2008 3:27 PM
Done with finesse and grace, Dr. Myers.
Posted by: Zar | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
I wish Catholics would make half the fuss over the Church's shameful, deadly policies regarding family planning in third-world countries as they do about snack desecration.
Destruction of a cracker: an outrage.
Death of Africans: whatev.
Andy:
Generally, the US is much less vigilant about proper waste disposal than Germany. We're pretty wasteful. Here, we recycle paper, cans and bottles, and not a lot else. Many recycling plants don't process assorted Verpackungen stuff. And I don't know of any sanitation department that handles biological waste; you have to take care of that yourself with a compost heap in the backyard (if you have a backyard, that is---if you live in an apartment, forget about it!). If you want to be eco-friendly, it requires a lot more effort on your part. It stinks.
I was amazed to find out how particular waste disposal was in Germany. I think it's great! I wish we did stuff like that, but I suppose it would cost a fair amount of money and we just don't have the public funds as the taxes are so much lower and all.
Posted by: the other Adam | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
I'd have desecrated a watermelon too (since they're yummy and in season) and a copy of Atlas Shrugged. Except that in my town, paper, banana peels and metal all go in different bins.
Posted by: Jack Picknell | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
In the paraphrased words of our Lord, forgive him Father, he does not know what he is doing. PZ I humbly suggest that you seriously consider repenting.
Remember that the God who made you and I both has said "I will repay".
Posted by: Chris Granade | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
Holy crap... what's the comment length cap? I like being able to post a length comment now and again, but BnotAfraid takes the cake for long comments. Then again, copy-and-pasting a comment is kind of cheating, no?
Posted by: kryptonic | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
Is that jesus' likeness I see there in the banana peel?
What's the character limit on this blog anyway? Whatever it is, it's too high.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
This deserves a fucking Pulitzer.
Posted by: Mika H | July 24, 2008 3:28 PM
Devastating.
Bravo, PZ.
I hope there's one more thing theists of all kind take home from this: hate or desire to hurt someone was never PZ's motivation nor goal. If you think so, or feel deeply hurt by this article, it's time to take off the blinders and do some serious soul searching.
Shame, though. It would've been great to time the desecration with the coming solar eclipse. ;)
http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2008/07/080722-solar-eclipse.html
Posted by: Aaron | July 24, 2008 3:29 PM
In the words of Brian:
You're all individuals!
Posted by: Kergillian | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
What? You DARE DESECRATE THE GOD DELUSION? I loved that book! And the Banana! What did it ever do to you?
That is an outrage!
No Soup for you!
I'll bet you wouldn't have the balls to do that to the Eucharist or the Quran... oh, wait... you did. Well then. Never mind.
Oh, and well said! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm having a sacred cow for lunch, and I think I'll have it with some bacon.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
Make ready the lacy, gently wafting curtains in the dungeon for John!
Posted by: cyborgsuzy | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
Hmm. Personally, I prefer recycling for the paper products, and composting for the coffee grounds, banana peels and crackers.
Posted by: SteadyEddy | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
#68 oops... "unrational" isn't even a word. I meant irrational or, better yet, unreasonable. I was in a hurry to break the top 100. PZ's much more eloquent than I am... which leads me to ask PZ... when can we look forward to a book of your thoughts on science and religion? Maybe see you for Sunday brunch at Q.Cumbers... again, well done PZ!
Posted by: Bert Chadick | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
You done 'dem crackers wrong, but why throw away a banana when it's just getting good.
PZ, You've been traveling a lot lately, and I hope you have been taking the bibles out of the rooms when you check out. I use them in my paper fired charcoal starter and they work great. Better than newspaper.
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 3:30 PM
You're full of shit. Humility and sanctimony aren't compatible.Posted by: AGatMSI | July 24, 2008 3:31 PM
@ #450:
Epic Win!
Posted by: Dahan | July 24, 2008 3:31 PM
"Hmm... some smart guy. Talk about being totally stupid, I can only think of God's mercy toward this guy is going to be a baseball bat to his head so he finally gets it through that head of his that the Eucharist is Jesus."
Posted by both : someone221 and Interested reader.
Here's a clue for ya. If your going to use Sockpuppetry, try changing the words a little so we may think it's not the same person... god, you people really are dumb as a box of rocks aren't ya.
Posted by: Chicago | July 24, 2008 3:31 PM
For all of you hoping for the long threads of catholics and religious, I laugh! Out of the first 100 I've read there was one, maybe a questionable two. The others, just a bunch of attention starved children, led by a man who is still hoping to get noticed. Bravo, bravo- Out of these post, all of the threads- you yourselves have accounted for 90% of your own grandstanding.
Posted by: CalGeorge | July 24, 2008 3:31 PM
I hope that was an organic banana, PZ.
And shade-grown, fair-trade, organic coffee.
And please remember to recycle that paper!
Three cheers for the trashing and desecration of that moronic symbol of Catholic stupidity.
Posted by: onclepsycho | July 24, 2008 3:32 PM
Just wait until that strident Dawkins guy hears about this...
Posted by: Bob | July 24, 2008 3:32 PM
Amen PZ.
Posted by: Susannah | July 24, 2008 3:32 PM
"There can be no danger of excess in our care for this mystery, for "in this sacrament is recapitulated the whole mystery of our salvation"."
I think John has taken the bolded part to heart. But Pope Rat was wrong.
(Yes, I read the screed. At least, some of it. FSM help me!)
And, Bravo, PZ!
Posted by: Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA | July 24, 2008 3:32 PM
I guess it had to be anti-climatic. After all, I can't think of any possible way to be truly evil to a cracker.
P.S.: You're conclusion is the best thing I've read all year. Cheers.
Posted by: Todd | July 24, 2008 3:32 PM
Praise FSM!
Posted by: Chicago | July 24, 2008 3:33 PM
For all of you hoping for the long threads of catholics and religious, I laugh! Out of the first 100 I've read there was one, maybe a questionable two. The others, just a bunch of attention starved children, led by a man who is still hoping to get noticed. Bravo, bravo- Out of these post, all of the threads- you yourselves have accounted for 90% of your own grandstanding.
Posted by: Kergillian | July 24, 2008 3:33 PM
What? You DARE DESECRATE THE GOD DELUSION? I loved that book! And the Banana! What did it ever do to you?
That is an outrage!
No Soup for you!
I'll bet you wouldn't have the balls to do that to the Eucharist or the Quran... oh, wait... you did. Well then. Never mind.
Oh, and well said! Now if you'll excuse me, I'm having a sacred cow for lunch, and I think I'll have it with some bacon.
Posted by: eguy | July 24, 2008 3:33 PM
I love the Monty Python references. I disagree about how you approached this, being rude on purpose about meaningless things does not strike me as the right thing to do. I do agree that the responses are 50 times worse than any thing I would have imagined. I mean death threats over a cracker? You can not make this stuff up.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 3:33 PM
Next time, run a rusty nail through the douchebag spambot. What a waste of stem cells.
Posted by: Martin | July 24, 2008 3:33 PM
#310 Pete Rooke: Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
Now desecrating the Eucharist would have the same effect as desecrating that book and posting the evidence in glee.
Which just goes to show how incredibly stupid and silly your view of your cracker is. Your cracker is not the skin or flesh of a loved one, or anyone else. It's a cracker, that you fantasize you have transformed into something else by virtue of a medievalist superstitious ritual. In terms of reality, it is still a cracker, no matter what gibberish and hand-waving spell-casting some man in robes does over it.
Honestly, do you really think these cartoon analogies constitute impressive arguments?
Posted by: Dav Laurel | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Gratuitous and stupid. And that's coming from an agnostic who never received any formal religious instruction.
Posted by: Dave Godfrey | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
John you git, you owe me a new scroll wheel.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Hey John, do you really like using the "Holy Father's" words as so much garbage to gum up a forum's works?
Seems that you have a problem with committing sacrilege, at least according to your religion.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/
Posted by: Paul Hands | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Nice one, PZ!
I just hope this doesn't spur one or another set of nutters to actually take a ction against you or yours.....please be careful.
As for that Tony Philips nobhead (#329), he's wrong. Before learning to think for myself, I was brought up a catholic, and was an altar boy (not of my own volition). The consistency of the crackers varies remarkably with age/humidity etc. Some would indeed shatter, but some, especially newer ones, could be bent in half without breaking. We used to use them as micro-frisbees, and they wouldn't break.
Being a catholic is like having rabies when nearly everyone else has distemper, and only a few are healthy.
Posted by: JackC | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Contrary to other opinions, and assuming from the position of prominence that recent consumption had taken place, that banana was just about perfect.
JC
Posted by: Feshy | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Hey, what do you know. Another thing God perfectly designed a banana to do! ;)
Posted by: Tom | July 24, 2008 3:34 PM
Hard to grasp, but posts 419 and 457 were even more fucking ridiculous as post 482.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 3:35 PM
Psst, John - NO ONE IS READING ANYTHING YOU POST.
Posted by: ErikFK | July 24, 2008 3:35 PM
god and his army of Johns, StLukes, BNotAfraid etc. knows how to make a denial of service attack?
god, you have really impressed me - such allmightyness forces me to reconsider my atheism...
Posted by: ed | July 24, 2008 3:35 PM
Loud applause.Standing "O".For the article not the fracking cracker.I wonder if the cat-licks teach that part of their past on Sundays?
Posted by: Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA | July 24, 2008 3:35 PM
PZ, you'll soon be hearing from the United Church of the Sacred Banana Peel.
Posted by: Blaidd Drwg | July 24, 2008 3:36 PM
444
Just a cut-rate version of 666...
Posted by: ZorkFox | July 24, 2008 3:36 PM
Inspiring and illuminating. I'll be sharing this with friends.
Posted by: Helioprogenus | July 24, 2008 3:37 PM
This is brilliant. Here we are thinking of the most elaborate ways of desecrating this idiot sucking symbolic piece of bread, and PZ does the least labor intensive and most time saving method of cracker mutilation. As for the Quran and the God Delusion, that's an interesting touch. Nothing religious is sacred to rational, skeptical, and actual free thought.
We should all just send in pictures of us desecrating something religious and have PZ post them up. Imagine how frenzied and insane these religious fucks would get. It wouldn't just be limited to catholics either, but other christians, jews, muslims, hindus, buddhists, jains, etc.
Posted by: ix | July 24, 2008 3:37 PM
Well written Professor Myers.
If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I'd drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue.
That sentence was gold.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 3:37 PM
Also, banana peels tend to brown rapidly when they have been separated from the rest of the banana.
Also, please stop whining about recycling the paper. This was a symbolic gesture. I'm sure PZ recycles every other scrap of paper he comes into contact with. Two trashed books aren't going to destroy the world.
(Nor a trashed cracker, OH!)
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:37 PM
Yea cuz you know, copy pasting annoyingly long stuff written by a church guy and pissing off everyone on a blog is the best way to convert them to Jesus, see.
Stop being such an anus.
Posted by: Jason | July 24, 2008 3:37 PM
Well, its done. Looks like those Witchita Indian spirits gan finally rest now.
Posted by: the other Adam | July 24, 2008 3:38 PM
Never mind the LHC, I think John Paul's comments are going to collapse into a singularity that will swallow the Earth.
Posted by: doug | July 24, 2008 3:38 PM
Jesus Christ, TheAnswer, that's a long comment.
Posted by: S.Scott | July 24, 2008 3:38 PM
How come there aren't any noodles in there?
Posted by: dhonig | July 24, 2008 3:38 PM
The experiment is not really over for another three days. Also, instead of covering the garbage can with a lid, can you use a large rock?
Posted by: Phyllis | July 24, 2008 3:39 PM
Bravo Professor Meyers!
Posted by: kryptonic | July 24, 2008 3:39 PM
Is that jesus' likeness I see there in the banana peel?
What's the character limit on this blog anyway? Whatever it is, it's too high.
Posted by: Parsnip Money | July 24, 2008 3:39 PM
John has turned into 'GlobalWarmingFraud'
WTF?
Posted by: Buzz Buzz | July 24, 2008 3:39 PM
Wow. I totally called the special addition.
Or, well, I was damned close. I was thinking origin of species, but the god delusion was better option. I think that was about the best way you could have done that.
Maybe that'll get it through their thick skulls.
Or more probably it just wont.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:39 PM
John? Listen up you fanatic. I got something to tell you.
that's all cute words, but back in 2003 the Pope was a vegetable. There's no way he would've written all that. It was written by the puppetmasters behind the poor walking cadaver, okay?
Posted by: tsg | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
The amount of evidence required to conditionally believe an assertion is true is dependent on two things: how unlikely the claim is to be true; and how important it is to be correct. In this case, the answer is "not very" to both. It doesn't matter in the slightest whether or not it is a consecrated cracker. The intolerance demonstrated by the believers is the entire point.
You're learning, grasshopper.
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
For all of you hoping for the long threads of catholics and religious, I laugh! Out of the first 100 I've read there was one, maybe a questionable two. The others, just a bunch of attention starved children, led by a man who is still hoping to get noticed. Bravo, bravo- Out of these post, all of the threads- you yourselves have accounted for 90% of your own grandstanding.
Posted by: Baba | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
That's a sorry excuse for a desecration, and not even original. You should thank God that a tedious lack of imagination isn't a mortal sin.
Posted by: Josh G | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
Very well done! Great message, thank you for sharing.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
Ben, PZ doesn't believe that the truth is relative. No serious Secular Humanist does. PZ wouldn't be a scientist if he didn't view approximate truth as highly important to himself and others. The whole deal here is: your religious truth claim is false. The idea that those wafers are a dead Jewish man is groundless. There is no legitimate evidence for it. He's not a relativist, you are in insisting that he should respect a false claim as truth.
Posted by: Who Cares | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
@GlobalCooling Fraud: Next time just post a link. Then you might have people actually reading what you say.
Posted by: Jim | July 24, 2008 3:40 PM
Just to add to the pile on the thread:
OMGZ!11 UR GOIN TUH HAY-UHL!1!
Love you, PZ. Keep up the good work. :D
Posted by: the strangest brew | July 24, 2008 3:41 PM
#406
'Thou shalt not spam bullshite', whether it be popery or blusterings of a mindless clone.
When all the howling, gnashing of teeth, pontification and squealing is done tis just a cracker...live with it...!
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 24, 2008 3:41 PM
RE #482: Another threat on your life; it appears someone is trying to bore you to death.
Posted by: Canuck | July 24, 2008 3:41 PM
What is a circumcised heart? I thought I knew about all of the strange religious rituals in the West. Sheesh. Is the heart's foreskin sensitive? Inquiring minds want to know.
Posted by: Hap | July 24, 2008 3:41 PM
John seems to be implementing a DOS attack. You might want to block him or at least shrink his comments (disemvoweling, etc.), but YMMV.
Posted by: Phyllis | July 24, 2008 3:42 PM
Bravo!
Posted by: Jason | July 24, 2008 3:42 PM
And isn't all this Catholic spam the equivalent of an atheist making a point in a debate, followed by a Christian covering their ears, closing their eyes, and quoting scripture loudly and incessantly in order to block out reason and logic?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | July 24, 2008 3:42 PM
Wonderfully understated desecration. Your preliminary remarks told the whole story.
I add my desire to see the remarks of John Boy of our copy/paste deleted. FWIW, I never read any post that is longer than a screen until I see who wrote it. And then, I only read the long posts of the regulars.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
Seriously, you copy-pasters of long-winded bullshit. Fuck off. You should be banned for this crap.
Posted by: Jim | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
OMGZ!11 UR GOIN TUH HAY-UHL!1!
Love you, PZ. Keep up the good work. :D
Posted by: Soybomb | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
Looks fitting to me. A cracker doesn't need an elaborate disposal.
Posted by: Buzz Buzz | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
I can't even follow the conversation because all of the concentrated crazy that's flying around in here.
Posted by: Colin M | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
Chicago @462:
"For all of you hoping for the long threads of catholics and religious, I laugh! Out of the first 100 I've read there was one, maybe a questionable two."
Unfortunate for you that your post is right after BnotAfraid's post filled with 60+ paragraphs of Catholic dogma & apologetics.
Posted by: Kristina | July 24, 2008 3:43 PM
I hope it IT IS FINISHED. PZ what is happening to your SCIENCE BLOG...come on..is this something new that you going to do from now on...BORONG BORING BORING...I mean how many THANK YOU GREAT POST do you need...I feel like I am with a buch of morons from youtube...we hate atheists...no we hate christians...no we hate hamburgers...you're an idiot...no you are...i hate you...no i hate you...WTF
Posted by: mr-zero | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
wtf stmatthew - haven't you heard of links!
Z
Posted by: alex | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
BANalso, massive kudos PZ.
Posted by: -R | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
PZ, will you PLEEAAASSSEEE disemvowel all but the first posting of screed that keeps getting posted? It's taking up like half the page.
Posted by: Umilik | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
Beautiful.
Just beautiful, Dr. Myers.
Pure poetry.
It gave me goosebumps.
Posted by: Dirk | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
Skimming past the novels... there actually is a Magisterium? I totally thought Philip Pullman made that up!
Posted by: db0 | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
Where is your god now?
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
I love how the Christians on here deny that it's even a real "consecrated" wafer.
How the hell would they recognize one if they mixed it up in a bag of regular wafers? That's the whole point--this whole so-called miracle of the eucharist is nonsense.
Posted by: chrisD | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
Thanks for the birthday present, PZ! You couldn't have picked a better day!
Posted by: AndrewG | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
John, what the fuck is wrong with you? Are your feelings so hurt that you cannot type? Relax my friend everything will be OK. Breath in ... breath out.
HAVE A CRACKER!
Posted by: Righteous Bubba | July 24, 2008 3:44 PM
I am disappointed that you didn't have a tiny black hood, crate, and electrical cables handy.
Posted by: Giljorak | July 24, 2008 3:45 PM
BLAHBLAHBLAH DUH EUCHACRISPIA
Of His Uselessness Pope Whats Its Face
To The Biatches, Prudes, and Deamons
Men and Women in the Secreted Life
And All the Lay Faithbul
On the Euchacrisp in its Relationship to the Chruch
CHAPTER ONE
THE MYSTERY OF BAKING
Dude, it's a frackin' cracker.
CONCLUSION
YUMMY
Pass the spray cheese please.
Given in Rome, at Saint Nowhere's, on 23 July, Thursday, in the year 2008, the uselessness of my Pontificate, the Year of the Rosey Palm.
Posted by: Hessenroots | July 24, 2008 3:45 PM
@ 310
OK then Pete, lets see what we have here:
1) Suppose you were a milkman with rotting teeth and cankerous lips..."
The mythical milkman is entrusted and payed to deliver the milk to paying customers. The disgusting behavior you suggest violates that trust and poses a possible long term health risk. You suggest PZ, by his actions, is akin to this milkman.
The only part of this analogy that fits is that someone was offended in the end. If that's your point well then, bravo. You've pointed out, rather obtusely, that someone is offended. There is no question of that, nor is that in question. Where is the violated trust? Risking the health of others?...
2) "Suppose your are an embalmer. You are busy embalming a person for an open coffin ceremony and you decide to pilfer there lush locks of blonde hair..."
As in your first analogy, there is an underlying level of trust involved. Much like the milkman story the 'victims' are unaware until after the fact. You also allude to PZ's 'theft' and possible proft. Again, there has been no violation of trust. He's not exactly been quiet or secretive about the situation nor did he steal anything. As for your point on profiting from the act, I'm unsure if he's payed by Seed for this blog. If he is then yes, you are correct in that aspect of the analogy (yet at the same time, whats your point?), otherwise the only similarity is the offended victim in the end.
"3) Young ladies like to wear an item of clothing called a mini-skirt these days..."
I hope I'm not the only one you lost with this sad little tale. You're suggesting that wearing a mini-skirt increases the chances of rape (which is mind boggling but I'm playing along)...so are you saying the Catholic church has left itself vulnerable, thus incited this 'attack'? To what end and once again, what's your point?
"he has since been roped into desecrating the Koran"
Actually if you dig a bit into his blog you'll find that he's alluded to it more then once in the past. The piles of emails and replies he's been getting isn't the cause.
"he is still as culpable as someone who chooses to attack say the more benign and watered down religions of Quakerism/Unitarian-Universalism"
I doubt anyone would deny that (watered down and benign, nice!). It's not whom is the target but why they're a target. The whole point of this exercise isn't about whom is being 'picked on'...if you've taken that away from this you're completely missing the point, not to mention victimizing yourself.
4) Suppose you had a very sacred book outlining your philosophy on life. This book also happened to be stitched together and bound in the skin and flesh of a loved one who had recently passed away.
Yes, it would have the same effect in that someone would be offended in the end. The point being made here is that sacred symbols, rites and rituals are silly and powerless beyond those whom hold them sacred. The difference here, which may or may not matter, is that the book is made of flesh and we're talking about biscuits and paper books. The concept of grief and mourning a loved one and treating the remains of that loved one with decency is a bit more universal then suggesting biscuit = jesus. The mere idea of bounding a book in the flesh of a loved one would be enough to offend a lot of people of varying faiths and backgrounds, no further disregard needed.
Overall, if the only point you were trying to make is that people are offended, you've managed to succeed (in the most obtuse and roundabout way possible). There's no question that people are offended, no ones trying to say people aren't...so what's your point, Pete?
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
"FWIW, I never read any post that is longer than a screen until I see who wrote it. And then, I only read the long posts of the regulars."
I have a general rule that anything worth saying can be said in what can be seen on the screen at anyone time. If it goes on longer than that it either needs to be edited, split up or links given to where more a more detailed discussion can take place. Like all rules, there are times when the rule should be ignored.
Posted by: NotAFuckTard | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
Ah, so this is why all the trolls left the other thread.
Wheeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeee...this is gonna be FUN!
Posted by: Jack Rawlinson | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
Great piece, PZ. I was hoping you'd take the opportunity to really spell out why these deranged primitives and their absurd fetishes deserve to be disrespected, and so you have.
As for the outraged Catholic (and other) loonies - get over it and grow a goddamned mind, you absurd clowns. You call PZ's behaviour immature and yet look at you. Look at you. Get the damned logs out of your eyes, eh?
Posted by: bullet | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
Just one quibble:
...the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry was a whole 70 years ago, after all...
Ummm, Serbia?
Posted by: MrMarkAZ | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
Thank you, PZ.
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
Seems that godbots are in full-speed copypasta mode.
.
Ban the Troll!!
.
Posted by: LaTomate | July 24, 2008 3:46 PM
PZ, you da man.
Posted by: Iason Ouabache | July 24, 2008 3:47 PM
Bravo, good sir! I'm just disappointed that you didn't go with a blender instead of the trash can.
Posted by: Cardinal Shrew | July 24, 2008 3:47 PM
Don't submissions require a valid email address? Can't we block them or the IP or something. I have liked not having to register but if the little copy and paste bitches are going to ruin everything, I will register.
Posted by: ThirtyFiveUp | July 24, 2008 3:47 PM
As always, PZ is a teacher. And an accomplished writer. I did not know about the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 which led to repeated murders of Jews. Murdered because superstitious Christians believed bread could be Jesus.
By the way, I eagerly await publication of his book.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 3:48 PM
You said nothing is sacred PZ. Interesting that you bring up the Jews. Not long ago atheists like yourself, and yes they were atheists so don't try your usual canards, killed 6 million of them. They did it scientifically. You would do it again if we were the ones you could kill. Don't claim otherwise since you believe nothing is sacred.
Atheists do not believe life is sacred. They don't believe in goodness, truth, or beauty. Those things are meaningless to them. For them there is no meaning. Human beings have no intrinsic worth, so in a way you encourage death threats by your own philosophy. How ironic. Even though you know that no Catholic would harm a hair on your little head. I cannot say the same for how atheists treat us.
I find your little exercise pathetic. Your justifications are drivel. You just wanted to hurt people. There was no desire to "teach" or give "wisdom." Please spare us such lies. Like most bigots you are filled with mindless hate. That is it in a nutshell: you hate us.
In the end you have only been preaching to your choir of sycophants. No one has changed their mind because of what you have done. In fact you simply confirmed in our minds the fact that atheists are vicious hateful bigots. And you wonder why people won't vote for an atheist for President! Just look in the mirror for the answer to that. Your actions have brought shame to your school, profession, and family. You are a sad little man devoid of decency. People don't admire you, they pity you.
Posted by: firemancarl | July 24, 2008 3:48 PM
Thanks PZ. Great read. My grandfather on my moms side we all Cherman Juden. his entire family was hunted down during WWII. He survived the war, hiding in Berlin of all places. It is "nice" to know that the hatred of the Juden started eons before the Nazis took over. I have never understood religion, especially the loony Catholics (and Muslims).
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 3:48 PM
I'll come back to read the comments after the Catholic spammer is thrown in the Killfile Dungeon. I'm wearing out my Page Down key to get past the books he's publishing here.
Posted by: stogoe | July 24, 2008 3:48 PM
Hey everyone! Pete's got a Necronomicon! Sweet!
Lemme see if I can remember how it goes...
Klaatu... Verata... Um... Necktie? Nectar? Somebody help me out here.
Posted by: cuervo | July 24, 2008 3:49 PM
Yes. Good post, although...you were finally getting going in the last paragraph...work that up to a full post would you? You know, let yourself go.
[nice add with the God Delusion BTW]
Posted by: S.Scott | July 24, 2008 3:49 PM
That's God spam is pissin' me off! What an asshole ...
Posted by: kent | July 24, 2008 3:49 PM
Serbia is not Catholic lol.
Serbia is Orthodox.
Croatia is Catholic.
Posted by: CLM | July 24, 2008 3:49 PM
So if Catholics are eating the body of Jesus doesn't that make them cannibals?
Posted by: bullet | July 24, 2008 3:50 PM
#561:
Couldn't just post a link? Too dumb?
Posted by: Greg | July 24, 2008 3:50 PM
In the immortal words of Bender,
OH... YOUR... GOD.
Posted by: rich fraser (richmanwisco) | July 24, 2008 3:51 PM
Excellent work.
Posted by: Mika H | July 24, 2008 3:51 PM
Very nice, reducing the wise words of your pope to a cheap DDoS attack.
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 24, 2008 3:52 PM
"Not long ago atheists like yourself, and yes they were atheists so don't try your usual canards, killed 6 million of them."
Got a historical question for ya: what the slogan on the Wehrmacht's belt-buckle translate to in English?
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | July 24, 2008 3:52 PM
You who are lately GlobalWarmingFraud, are a one trick pony. While you are mildly troublesome (all the extra scrolling, long refresh time) you are fortunately easily ignored.
Posted by: Friso | July 24, 2008 3:52 PM
Excellent article, and precisely the throwaway treatment this deserves. Well done.
Posted by: ix | July 24, 2008 3:52 PM
In light of the spam, perhaps it would be a good idea for user posts greater than 500 characters to be cut off at the character limit, and a 'read more' JavaScript URL appended to it for expanding the rest of their message.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:52 PM
@CLM: S'what we claim and what folks like Dr. J thinks. BTW, Dr. J. I believe in goodness, love and beauty. I see it in the people I love, the wonderous world around me, the universe that we're part of and I don't need your imaginary friend to be moved by the grace of the universe.
Science is beautiful.
Posted by: Tom | July 24, 2008 3:53 PM
Let's see--climate change is a fraud, but it is in fact true that in July of 2008 PZ Myers put a nail though the actual flesh of a first-century peasant from an obscure backwater of the Roman Empire.
Riiiiiiiiiiight.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 3:53 PM
I have only read a few comments in this thread. Reading the bazillion comments in the other threads has given me a migraine. Please forgive me if I bring up something that has already been mentioned.
It is my prediction that catholics will now claim that it could not have been a consecrated Jebus Cracker. They cannot deal with the fact that their imaginary friend will not do unspeakable harm to PZ, so....since PZ will not be stricken down by a bolt of lightening within the next few days, they will see it as proof that the Jebus Cracker was not a concecrated one.
They have to do something to make themselves feel safe again. They will invent a way out, a loophole. After an initial outrage they will begin to convince themselves and each other that it was not a consecrated jebus cracker, and they will wrap themselves in their psychological security blanket once more. Their idolatry will continue and they will think their little Jebus idols/crackers, are safe and sound. (Although they may do strip searches to make sure no evil Atheists have come to Mass to smuggle out Jebus crackers.)
Hopefully, this nonsense will make at least a few people take a good, hard look at their religion and admit that it's all a crock of hooey invented by humans to control other humans. That's my hope anyway.
A message to the catholics who are in emotional agony over this issue. I am sorry you are in pain. I hope that someday you find a path to reason and no longer allow superstition to cause you such suffering. It bothers me that you are sad, I don't like to see suffering, even if it is self-induced and based on delusional thoughts. Just as I wish I could flip a switch and fix mentally ill patients and remove their irrational fear and agony, I wish I could flip a switch and remove yours. I cannot do that for you though. Only you can flip that switch.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 3:53 PM
I think John is about to have himself reported to his ISP for denial of service attacks, yes?
It's curtains for you, John. Lacy, gently wafting curtains.
(Yeah, I know I said it already. I'm enjoying the fact that I have a chance to use that line.)
Posted by: Elf Eye | July 24, 2008 3:53 PM
Quick way to get past godbot spam in Mozilla Firefox. Use 'find' feature, type in number of what would be the next comment. Leaps right past the spam. A more permanent solution to the problem (PZ, are you listening): dungeon!
Posted by: Jack Rawlinson | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Great piece, PZ. I was hoping you'd take the opportunity to really spell out why these deranged primitives and their absurd fetishes deserve to be disrespected, and so you have.
As for the outraged Catholic (and other) loonies - get over it and grow a goddamned mind, you absurd clowns. You call PZ's behaviour immature and yet look at you. Look at you. Get the damned logs out of your eyes, eh?
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Fr. J, John, chicago, Global Warming Fraud and what not, go fuck a fucking cracker, and stop spamming the threads. Brainless gits.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Fixed.
Posted by: Enshoku | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
PZ for the love of all that is good and sacred... STOP THE ASSHAT SPAMMER
Posted by: Saint Bubba | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
May God have mercy on your soul.
Posted by: Maria | July 24, 2008 2:03 PM
"Every sperm is sacred, every sperm is good."
You parody yourselves.
Posted by: Alexander Treseder | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
copy and paste attack!
Posted by: Roman Werpachowski | July 24, 2008 3:54 PM
Dear PZ:
The XIXth century is long past. I give you some points for trying, but zero for style.
Posted by: Sili | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
Sic frecat crustulum.
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
@stogoe:
Are you talking of Klaatu Barada Nikto?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Klaatu_barada_nikto
Because that is not a Lovecraft reference. It is cool as well, though. Maybe you are thinking of Ph'nglui mglw'nafh Cthulhu R'lyeh wgah'nagl fhtagn?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu
Posted by: imr90 | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
These people were responsible for a 1000 year long dark age. They will never give up trying to bring it back.
Posted by: Thomas R. Holtz, Jr. | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
@"Fr.J"
I recognize that God is simply a human construct. I am an atheist.
Yet I:
a. believe in goodness
b. belive in truth
c. belive in beauty
d. consider these things meaningful (indeed, among the most meaningful things in life)
e. recognize that many additional things have meaning.
Thus, your statement is negated by the evidence. QED.
Additionally, I doubt you are in fact an ordained priest. I am willing to sign my name to the above statement in this public forum; are you willing to do the same?
Posted by: JHJEFFERY | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
I guess we won't know the outcome of this for another three days . . .
At least the cracker has zero grams of Trans(substantiation)fat.
Well done, PZ.
Posted by: Ghost of Minnesota | July 24, 2008 3:55 PM
Adding The God Delusion was a stroke of brilliance. Bravo, Dr. Myers.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
Yes, a good prediction because they did. At comment #200 though, PZ posted a video proof. But it was most likely lost in the mass (ahaha) of comments.It's worth reposting. THIS IS THE ABDUCTION OF THE GLUTEN!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHPZFsGrt-Y
Posted by: TripMaster Monkey | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
Rayven sez:
It is my prediction that catholics will now claim that it could not have been a consecrated Jebus Cracker.
They're already headed down that road.
Posted by: MicroZealous | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
Re "Chicago", "ClimateChange Fraud", et al:
I note the revealing parallels between religiosity and anti-science attitudes. Denial is not just a lake in South America . . .
Posted by: ErikFK | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
#569: Atheists do not believe life is sacred. They don't believe in goodness, truth, or beauty. Blah blah blah
Of course not. We eat babies at breakfast, admire only people like Stalin and terrorists and, of course, burn religious people when we're bored and have no more cracker at hand.
Please move to the moon. You'll be nearer to your god - and far from his victims.
Posted by: hhabilis | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
What's really ironic is that Jesus Himself said: "Anyone who speaks a word against the Son of Man [that is, Jesus] will be forgiven..." (Mt 12:32) Maybe the hypocrites ought to read their own Book.
Posted by: Paul W. | July 24, 2008 3:56 PM
To the troll spamming the thread with repeats of long nonsense...
Do be aware that what you're doing is not just tacky, but a crime. It's called a "denial of service attack" and it's legally far more serious than stealing a cracker.
Also, some of us are pretty good with computers, and can probably figure out where you live.
PZ can just delete your posts, by the way. He has that kind of godlike power over comments and crackers.
Posted by: Parsnip Money | July 24, 2008 3:57 PM
Oh thank Jeebus, Fr. J is back.
how many times do we have to tell you that Nazi Germany did not kill people in the name of Atheism, but in the name of Nazi Germany!
Even if what you claim to be true was true, it doesn't negate the fact that millions more have been killed in the name of your imaginary sky-being!
Posted by: Jaap Weel | July 24, 2008 3:57 PM
I think you desperately need some updates to the comment system. First of all, limit comments to a certain size, may 1 kilobyte or so. Second, you may want to consider using a comment system like Disqus that lets people vote on comments, so that interesting comments will actually be discoverable among the quotations from encyclicals and the like.
Posted by: Tom | July 24, 2008 3:57 PM
Nice one, stogoe #572.
Posted by: Patrick | July 24, 2008 3:57 PM
Bravo
Posted by: HC Grindon | July 24, 2008 3:58 PM
Bravo, Professor Myers, bravo! The last paragraph after the picture really says it all. Thank you for your voice of reason throughout this silliness known as Crackergate.
Posted by: bullet | July 24, 2008 3:58 PM
kent(#575):
Orthodox is Catholic. That's why there's a modifier for Roman Catholic.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 3:58 PM
See #569 from Fr. J Shithead. (The number may change after the Catholic spam is deleted.)
Godwin's Law: "As a Usenet discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches one."
Posted by: nullifidian | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
Why?
Posted by: The Pope | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
Of His Holiness Pope John Paul II
To The Bishops, Priests, and Deacons
Men and Women in the Consecrated Life
And All the Lay Faithful
On Spamming
HEY ASSHOLE! KNOCK IT OFF YOU DOUCHE! I wanna read these comments so I can get back to buggering some choir boys.
Sheesh.
XOXOXO
Da Pope (for shizzle!)
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
cosmology@yahoo.com ?
Is that your email or something?
Posted by: Bob Kowalski | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
The best that I can say???
God Almighty, how I wish I had written that!
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
Fr. J,
You are a dumbass.
Atheism can't motivate anyone to do anything, it's a mere absence of belief. Religion on the other hand represents affirmative beliefs which can in fact motivate people to do terrible things.
Nazism was just like a religion. Dogmatic, irrational, and hostile to any dissent.
You simply cannot accept that human beings can be decent, free, loving and happy without believing in horseshit.
Also, you have not once demonstrated that your god even exists. You have a contempt for the truth and reality that is mind-boggling.
Posted by: MicroZealous | July 24, 2008 3:59 PM
Re "Chicago", "ClimateChange Fraud", et al:
I note the revealing parallels between religiosity and anti-science attitudes. Denial is not just a lake in South America . . .
Posted by: W.C.Walker | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Religious controversies are always more productive of more acrimony & irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Geo. Washington, letter to Edw. Newenham, 6-2 1792 200 plus years later it's no different.
Posted by: Irene | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Are your actions and words representative of the 8th rate university you teach at? So anyway, why did you leave Temple? Or were you run out of town?
Posted by: writzer | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
John, Benotafraid, JohnPaul2weloveyou ...
No matter how many words are used to explain the irrational, it's still irrational. It's still ... just a cracker.
Posted by: Hal in Howell MI (not far from Hell, MI) | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Excellent essay, PZ. Thank you. Sorry you felt it necessary to use books (I guess books are as close to "sacred" I get, except for Bach and Beethoven.) At least the books were not unique and can easily be replaced. So, no harm, no foul.
This entire episode has proven, beyond reasonable doubt, that there is only a thin vernier separating so-called religious mores from the threat of religious violence.
Posted by: Gary | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
An English copy of the Koran (Qu'ran) is not the true Koran. To really do the job right, you need an Arabic version.
Posted by: lurker_above | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Haha. This is going well. Bravo, PZ.
Posted by: jl | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
Jesus should be used to being pierced by nails.
I'll lift a beer to you tonight PZ
Posted by: mostlywater | July 24, 2008 4:00 PM
An appropriate end to a nontroversy.
Posted by: Ferin | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
Interesting choice tossing the god delusion pages in there too.
I don't entirely agree with what you did, but I guess I can understand it.
I just hope that people'll learn something from all of this silliness.
Posted by: Tony | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
You're my new idol PZ, for real, you're the man. Cheers from Finland! :-)
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
You lying bastard.Posted by: alex | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
PZ! POPE KNOWS HOW TO USE INTERNET!
Posted by: Sven DIMilo | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
Loathe as I am to enter the Land of Double Posts (and Triple, etc.), especially since I earlier promised to no longer pay any attention to the whole Ineffable Magical Cracker scene, I...cannot...help pointing out that, of course, sentences 2, 3, and 4 quoted above do not remotely follow from #1. And #1, while literally true (since nothing is sacred) is as close to wrong as something literally true can get."Father" J., you are wrong from top to bottom. I know how you feel about personal insults, and so I will avoid them while pointing out that you have not paid the slightest bit of attention to anything anyone else has posted in response to your bullshit. Aaaah, screw it: you suck, asshole.
You and Pete "False Analogy" Rooke would be banned for inane thick-skulled slagging if I were the owner of the blog, and the fact that PZ leaves your crap up and allows you to post the same shit again and again is just evidence of the bend-over-backwards-to-be-fair kind of guy he is. Nobody got hurt by the little rusty-nail demonstration--not you, nobody. Please quit whining.
Posted by: JoshH | July 24, 2008 4:01 PM
*Gnashes teeth loudly and angrily*
Posted by: Irene | July 24, 2008 4:02 PM
Are your actions and words representative of the 8th rate university you teach at? So anyway, why did you leave Temple? Or were you run out of town?
Posted by: jl | July 24, 2008 4:02 PM
Jesus should be used to being pierced by nails.
I'll lift a beer to you tonight PZ
Posted by: Parsnip Money | July 24, 2008 4:02 PM
Hey look, John has added 'Nancy Pelosi' and 'Hussein Obama' to his ranks of intense paste lovers.
Posted by: writzer | July 24, 2008 4:02 PM
John, Benotafraid, JohnPaul2weloveyou ...
No matter how many words are used to explain the irrational, it's still irrational. It's still ... just a cracker.
Posted by: stogoe | July 24, 2008 4:03 PM
Alas, the joining of the two is not my idea but Sam Raimi's, in Army of Darkness.
Posted by: Zaphod | July 24, 2008 4:03 PM
> W.C.Walker said -
> Religious controversies are always more productive of
> more acrimony & irreconcilable hatreds than those which
> spring from any other cause. Geo. Washington, letter to
> Edw. Newenham, 6-2 1792 200 plus years later it's no
> different.
I like Franklin's take on it:
"Indeed, when religious people quarrel about religion, or hungry people quarrel about victuals, it looks as if they had not much of either among them.
-- Benjamin Franklin"
Posted by: Steve | July 24, 2008 4:04 PM
Absolutely brilliant. PZ, I only wish I could have put together such and EXCELLENT piece of prose. Complete. Accurate. Fair. And of course very witty!
So many have already offered you the same praise I wish to offer. Others have used the "copy / paste" function to the point it should be banned...All I will add is that I, too, will hoist a glass in your honor tonight!
Posted by: Justin | July 24, 2008 4:04 PM
Holy Jesus Christ, people.
Religions suck. Do you know how stupid you're all sounding?
IT IS JUST A CRACKER. EFFING MOLECULES. BAKED.
Cheers PZ Myers, you're awesome.
Posted by: fafnir | July 24, 2008 4:04 PM
I never figured Jesus'd show up in anything less than a Double Stuff.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 4:04 PM
PZ said: Fortunately, Catholicism has mellowed with age -- the last time a Catholic nation rose up to slaughter its non-Christian citizenry was a whole 70 years ago, after all -- but the sentiment still lingers.
Did you read that, Fr. J?
Posted by: Baba | July 24, 2008 4:04 PM
How Mao of you!
Posted by: blf | July 24, 2008 4:05 PM
Pee Zed is well aware of St John the Copy Pasting Annoyer and is working on the problem (see the comments in the Roy Zimmerman thread after this one), so the posts asking him to do something about it are, in a sense, just as much spam as the bishop's blatterings.
Posted by: sailor | July 24, 2008 4:05 PM
Great move. Get the whole bunch of them running to PZ over a cracker and then let go with both barrels about the nature of this rubish where they are all sure to read it.
I think the nail was a bit over the top, the garbage bin perfectly apropriate and the final advise:
"God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanities' knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind."
worthy of more permanent publication.
Posted by: E.V. | July 24, 2008 4:06 PM
"I'm going to raise a glass of Laphroaig in toast"
Man, do you know how to induce Single Malt envy. (pout)
Posted by: Female God | July 24, 2008 4:07 PM
May God have mercy on your soul.
Posted by: Maria | July 24, 2008 2:03 PM
#2
It is done.
Posted by: H.H. | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
#3
Well done.
Posted by: FormerMilitary | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
#4
Well this is going to be epic.
Posted by: Tucker | July 24, 2008 2:04 PM
#5
PZ: My gin and tonic will be hoisted up in your name tonight.
Posted by: Anthony | July 24, 2008 2:06 PM
#6
Well, if you thought the deluge of email was bad now! :)
Thanks for pointing out that nothing should be held sacred.
Posted by: JSorrell | July 24, 2008 2:08 PM
#7
Requiescat in pace, Crustum Christi.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 24, 2008 2:08 PM
#8
Well said PZ. Wish I could think of something more to add.
Posted by: Cafeeine | July 24, 2008 4:07 PM
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1465
MYERS DESECRATES THE EUCHARIST
July 24, 2008
University of Minnesota professor Paul Z. Myers made good on his pledge to desecrate the Eucharist today. According to his statement on the subject, "I pierced it [the Host] with a rusty nail (I hope Jesus's tetanus shots are up to date). And then I simply threw it in the trash."
Saying he did not want to "single out just the cracker," Myers also tore pages from the Koran along with a few pages from Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and nailed them to the Host. He then said, "They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. (His emphasis.) Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet."
Catholic League president Bill Donohue responded as follows:
"A formal complaint against Myers has already been made. What he did--in both word and deed--constitutes a bias incident, as defined by the University of Minnesota. The policy says that 'Expressions of disrespectful bias, hate, harassment or hostility against an individual, group or their property because of the individual or group's actual or perceived race, color, creed, religion...can be forms of discrimination. Expressions vary, and can be in the form of language, words, signs, symbols, threats, or actions that could potentially cause alarm, anger, fear, or resentment in others...even when presented as a joke.'
"The University must now take action and apply the appropriate sanction. We are contacting the president, Board of Regents and the Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action Office at the school, as well as Minnesota's governor and both houses of the state legislature; the Catholic community in Minnesota is also being contacted. Moreover, we are also contacting Muslim groups nationwide.
"It is important for Catholics to know that the University of Minnesota will not tolerate the deliberate destruction of the Eucharist by one of its faculty. Just as African Americans would not tolerate the burning of a cross, and Jews would not tolerate the display of swastikas, Catholics will not tolerate the desecration of the Eucharist."
(Note: For information purposes only. The poster does not subscribe to the above wackiness)
Posted by: ail | July 24, 2008 4:08 PM
I have kind of the opposite of your view but a similar goal.
Everything is sacred.
All those things in your picture are expressions of divinity playing out its ever-evolving and -devolving energy in space and time.
To me what you have done isn't sacrilege but art. It's a rudimentary and minor effort, but still an original variation using evocative elements in a strong, precise statement of individual values, intended to make the viewer rethink familiar objects and entrenched ideas.
I think it's a messed up world when we call a wafer sacred but not a banana.
In fact, we can always manufacture, and get some priest to "bless", more wafers. The bananas are another story, as the particular variety we eat are slowly dying out from a fungal disease.
To you nothing's sacred, to me all of it is, but in both views breakiing down false mysteries is a step toward respecting and valuing the real world for what it is.
I'm outta' here, you got too many commenters already. If there is a goddess, She loves ya'! :)
Posted by: David | July 24, 2008 4:08 PM
Voltaire said that those who can make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities. This quotation comes to my mind when I read of the massacres that were instigated by false claims of host desecration, and also when I read the threats of violence from a few outraged Christians.
I want to thank Dr. Myers for reminding us that religious superstition is not harmless, but it has deadly consequences.
Posted by: Mike Smith | July 24, 2008 4:09 PM
I'm excited to see where this leads. I'm with you all the way, PZ.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 4:09 PM
According to the Catholic religion, only assholes are allowed in heaven. That would explain all the Catholic spam.
Posted by: JoJo | July 24, 2008 4:10 PM
To misquote Lewis Carroll:
Speak roughly to your little boy
And beat him when he spams,
He only does it to annoy
And he thinks it damns.
Posted by: Rodney Trotter | July 24, 2008 4:10 PM
Carlie -
Ok if the worst that can be said about the Hindu cow analogy is where he ate the meat I'm happy, it works. The sentiment is the same.
Don't get me wrong, the religious outcry/spam etc is an absurd over-reaction. I just think there's such a thing as poor taste, this being quite close. Might be an English thing.
Posted by: bonefish | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
Great post. Always enjoy whatever you've got to say, PZ.
did take me a hell of a long time to get down here, though. if i wanted to read the papal address in its entirety i am perfectly capable of looking the endless thing up on my own.
i may reread the history of the various church councils, though. they're always interesting.
Posted by: MrMarkAZ | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
I wonder who's going to make post #666? Hopefully it will be that no-talent ass-clown whose posting the same sputum ad nauseum. He's not just wacka-loon, he's a cracka-loon!
Posted by: Patrick | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
Some serious trolling going on here...
Posted by: Hal in Howell MI (not far from Hell, MI) | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
@Father J & Hillarywasscrewed, et al:
Bollocks!!!!
Please don't pray for me because I will then have to think for both of us.
Posted by: Sam L. | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
Brilliant, appropriate, and final. Great conclusion, PZ.
Posted by: Anon | July 24, 2008 4:11 PM
Great now that that is done, lets get back to some hot squid on squid action.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 4:12 PM
As a Catholic with a sense or irony I've decided the only thing I'll be praying for is the conversion of PZ's child(ren) to Catholicism. Catholic with a sense of ironic justice.
Posted by: mick lafferty | July 24, 2008 4:12 PM
Communism through Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, HoChi Mihn, Castro and many others has killed many more than Christianity.
Literally, hundreds of millions, not to mention the atheistic nazis killing 6 million Jews and 10 million others.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:12 PM
@Cafeeine
Wow. He REALLY bit the bait uh? My god (Also known as my own self, yes, you heard me, I'm God. Live with it and hail to me.) he's really a blind fanatic man. Sad existence he has.
Posted by: Dahan | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
Fr. J
"Atheists do not believe life is sacred. They don't believe in goodness, truth, or beauty. Those things are meaningless to them. For them there is no meaning. Human beings have no intrinsic worth, so in a way you encourage death threats by your own philosophy. "
How can you have been posting bullshit for ever on these threads and still not know what an atheist is? You really are the dumbest person I've ever read here on this blog, and that includes Kenny. That's saying something.
Unlike you, we don't believe in some fairy made afterlife. We believe this life is all we get, therefore, life is INCREDIBLY important to us. We don't have the "faith" you do that some sky-daddy will sort everything out in the end and make it right. We have to do the work ourselves.
We don't believe in goodness, truth, or beauty? Define "goodness". Is that the bit in your holy book that tells us just how much we can beat our slaves? Truth? You're the one living in a fantasy world with made up beings and rules... what do you know of truth? Beauty? I can enjoy the world and it's beauty more than you ever can, because I allow myself to see the wonders around me instead of focusing on hoped for unrealities.
No meaning? Your life would have no meaning without your imaginary friend? You wouldn't want to build a better world for your children, your wife, for everyone? You wouldn't see a reason to get up in the morning? You are DEEPLY sick. Get to a mental health professional immediately.
Human beings have no intrinsic worth? You're the one who views the imaginary soul as the end-all be-all. Not us.
And as has been put to you probably 50 times already. THERE HAVE BEEN NO GREAT MASSACRES IN THE NAME OF ATHEISM!!! There have been atheists who committed massacres, but not in it's name. There have been MANY massacres committed in the name of religion.
I don't know why I bother. You don't appear to be able to reason. All you can do is spout dogma. You stopped using your brain and it's atrophied to the point that it no longer functions. It's pathetic. really.
Posted by: RelidjusGuy931285 | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
Fore reasins why you athists are rong:
1. I hate you.
2. Lorem ipsum dolor sit amet, consectetuer adipiscing elit. Mauris accumsan, neque et tincidunt porttitor, erat orci condimentum nunc, eu commodo ante pede vel ligula!
Fred 7:13
3. Im' mad.
Posted by: Mark B | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
I suppose I just have to be satisfied with the neighbor of the beast, since Patrick got post #666.
Posted by: JF | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
Sooooooooooooo happy to be done with religion after over twenty years of active intellectual denial and ongoing suspended disbelief. Sorry folk there is no evidence for anything supernatural and to think otherwise involves hanging up your thinking processes and holding onto a story with no more merit than tooth ferries, Santa or waiting vestal virgin daiquiris'.
Posted by: laurisa | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
Which stupid fuckers didn't get the memo: DON'T PRAY IN OUR SCHOOL, WE WON'T THINK IN YOUR CHURCH! Oh, must be those christians when god pulled a no show that day. Like the long ass posts are getting read with any hint of seriousness. Are you winning? Do you feel strong? dumbasses.
I was mighty put out though when I stopped the scroll long enough to see that 'church' has desecrated ME...why is that feeble shack a "she?" total bummage.
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
@stogoe:
Yikes! Way cool. I consider myself outgeeked :D
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 4:13 PM
Ok if the worst that can be said about the Hindu cow analogy is where he ate the meat I'm happy, it works. The sentiment is the same.
Then you don't ever eat beef? If you do, the sentiment is the same, and you're acting, as you said, in poor taste. And as was said long ago by someone else on one of the epic threads, if you eat pork, you're pissing on Jews and Muslims, and if you swat a mosquito, the Jains will be miffed.
Posted by: Bureaucratus Minimis | July 24, 2008 4:14 PM
I want to revisit TG's original post @ 39. I think everyone(*) here has missed that he and those like him are totally running scared:
It is easy to see the titles of the books, but where is the proof that is a consecrated host? I think it is nothing more than an attention-getting stunt for noteriety. Weak.
See, he's in denial. He refuses to believe that anyone could or would actually "desecrate" the cracker. In his mind nobody would dare do this for fear of divine retribution. Also, IHO there are no real atheists, only believers who are angry at god.
So no matter what proof you offer him, he can still cling to his worldview. Just like poor Binky Brown...
(*) OK, I stopped reading @ 241 because of all the duplicate posts and ridiculously long gibberish about the cracker.
Posted by: erik542 | July 24, 2008 4:14 PM
Ooo monty python reference. Nice. Very fitting too.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 4:14 PM
Fixed.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 4:15 PM
BTW, Extra Ecclesiam nulla salus did not originate at Lateran IV. It predates it by centuries, see St. Cyprian. Also PZ doesn't even understand what it means. The interpretation of it is apparently beyond his intellect. Hopefully he will retract his error, but let's not hold our breaths.
Also the Council legislation concerning Jews dealt primarily with limiting interest rates ie. usury. It did NOT mandate a yellow star of David. It stated that Jews and Muslims were to wear distinguishing dress. Why? Because of the tension between the groups and the fact that in Islamic lands this was part of their law. Also this was part of Jewish law and was enforced by Jews in Israel. In other words it was common in virtually all societies at the time. Did Jews get a fair shake? No. But they never have from almost anyone. We at least have taken steps to establish good relations with Jews. PZ hates Jews and despises their religion. Think about what he would do to the Torah if he had a chance.
Jews also could not vote or hold office in many early American colonies. Atheists, like in the old USSR, treated Jews terribly. PZ didn't mention that? Of course not. The fact is that PZ and atheists don't really care about how Jews are treated. It is a tactic and nothing more. He would have no qualms about eliminating Jews. Remember, for him nothing is sacred.
Does he mention how atheists treated Christians during the French revolution? About how many heads have rolled because of people like himself? The brutality of atheism beggars the imagination and makes religious people look like amateurs. 100,000,000 dead on account of PZ's philosophy in the last century. Don't deny it, we all know it is true. We can read.
All of this is a cloak in which he hides his own bigotry and hate. He wants to distract you and justify his own actions. Don't be fooled. For him, NOTHING IS SACRED, and that includes the truth.
Posted by: gb | July 24, 2008 4:15 PM
A toast to our host (PZ ... not the other one) for such an educational demise of that which is not sacred.
Posted by: Sam | July 24, 2008 4:15 PM
So, let's see. In my question for knowledge, to whom shall I look as a model of intellectual inquiry, rigor, and substance? Prof. P.Z. Myers on the one hand, Thomas Aquinas on the other hand.
Hmmmmm...tough choice, isn't it...
Posted by: CJ | July 24, 2008 4:15 PM
In keeping with the whole body of christ theme, I believe you shorted the host a few nails.
Posted by: Bugger Pope | July 24, 2008 4:16 PM
Oh, silly Mike @ #670! You Catholics are ALWAYS trying to get more little boys to join up, aren't you?
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 4:16 PM
#671--
Nazi Germany was predominantly Christian. From the rank-and-file Wehrmacht soldier up to the top-ranked generals, Christians had more than their fair share of participation in the Third Reich's evil doings.
You fail.
P.S. God doesn't exist. Have a nice day.
Posted by: Nino | July 24, 2008 4:16 PM
I like the way you got the fruit that is THE proof for ID involced in all of this as well !
Plus equal oportunity by ripping pafges out of Dawkins.....
Well done !
Posted by: Jason | July 24, 2008 4:17 PM
Tonight, I eat a box of Saltines in memorial of the cracker.
Posted by: Parsnip Money | July 24, 2008 4:17 PM
Donahue has responded. Any minute now the Catholic A-Team Go Force Samurai Cyber Squad Patrol will be knocking down PZ's door and saving their beloved piece of be-yeasted flour.
CRACKERGATE HAS BEGUN.
Posted by: CarpeGuitarrem | July 24, 2008 4:17 PM
Interesting. Apparently you view Richard Dawkins' book as a holy text?
Posted by: firemancarl | July 24, 2008 4:17 PM
@#569. No, the Chermans weren't atheists you silly god botherer. They all fully believed. Even Himmler thought he could find 'the holy grail'. Heck the Wehrmacht were issued belt buckles with 'Gott mit uns' on 'em. Totally what you'd expect from an atheist army. I dig your logic, i have since converted.
Posted by: HC Grindon | July 24, 2008 4:17 PM
"He's not just wacka-loon, he's a cracka-loon!"
Frickin hi-larious! A new term is coined! ROFLMAO!
Posted by: Nina in London | July 24, 2008 4:18 PM
#427 was in answer to what I wrote:
Hey, PZ is a comedian! To us Catholics, transubstantiation is *exactly* the difference. It is a wafer of wheat with the exactly the same form and taste as before the consecration, but after consecration the form is still of wheat but the substance is now the Body of Christ.
#427 replied:
"That is meaningless. It is just an abuse of the English language. What you are in effect saying is that it is both the same and different. That is simply nonsensical. What properties does it have after consecration that it did not have before ? If there are no physical differences then there is no difference. Did you not do science at school or something ? There is an important concept in science, that basically states if you cannot tell two things apart then they are identical."
MY RESPONSE:
Science and Religion have different remits, they are not mutually exclusive. Science is the how, Religion is the why. People ask "WHY do I exist? What does my life mean?" Science does not provide answers to that. That is Religion's job.
Science is neutral, scientists pose hypotheses and argue them to try to explain things in the world. Science does not deal with the soul, heaven, morality, goodness, the agonising question of why people behave violently to each other. Again, Religion offers answers.
Science is always changing - one hypothesis gets replaced by another as further discoveries are made.
I personally don't look to Science for inspiration, spiritual uplift and moral guidance, to make sense of life, to give a wider context.
Religion deals with the eternal. God. Religion is the expression of man's longing for something greater than he is. We Christians believe that God became Man to show us how we can live life to the full, to live as one, with respect for all others on earth, not to live selfishly. To love when love seems impossible, as Jesus did.
(And now I really must go home because it's late over here!)
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:18 PM
Katie Couric now? Had a sex change?
I have to agree with that name for that post this time, John. She's a great way to measure shit.
Posted by: Boosterz | July 24, 2008 4:18 PM
For all the claims to vast cosmic power that they attribute to their god, I would expect something flashier then sending a minion to spam the comments with cut and paste nonsense. lol
Posted by: randy | July 24, 2008 4:18 PM
reversing the situation, circle your answer:
Fred Phelps has or has not received death threats.
Fred Phelps and his clan should be allowed to protest inside, outside, nearby, two blocks away or not at all at funerals of returned soldiers and homosexuals.
Posted by: Marsten | July 24, 2008 4:19 PM
You have offended my God in your desecration of our most holy artifacts, the Sacred Banana! Heathen and blasphemer, know you not that those who decry against the Sacred Banana will be sludged forever in its yellowey goo?
May you slip on many a banana skin for such heresy!
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 4:19 PM
I hope PZ tosses another consecrated cracker in the trash for every time that big-ass stupid screed of whatever-the-hell-I-won't-read-it gets posted.
Posted by: Rodney Trotter | July 24, 2008 4:19 PM
Carlie -
Yes I eat beef - but specific cows are sacred to Hindus, not every one. If I ate the specific cow they had told me previously was some incarnation of whoever, just to prove a point to them, I would feel a bit disappointed with myself.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 4:20 PM
Voltaire: "écrasez l'infâme".
Bill Donahue: Arrest Voltaire!
Posted by: Ben D | July 24, 2008 4:20 PM
If you believe that truth is relative, why can't you respect what "my truth" is? I believe that the host becomes Jesus. You don't. I respect that you don't believe; I have no issue with your disbelief. I don't make fun of you for not believing. As a fellow human, I would have expected the respect to be reciprocal.
Posted by: Drake33 | July 24, 2008 4:20 PM
Ran the Trolls' ungodly length cut and paste rambling it through the ghetto translator. It was... too long for the Ghetto Translator to handle so I trimmed off a couple of lines. Much better if you ask me. Enjoy:
CONCLUSION
60. At da dawn uh dis third millennium, we, da children uh da Church, be called to undasnatch wid renewed enthusiasm da journey uh Christian livin`. As ah` wrote in my Apostolic Letter Novo Millennio Ineunte, \"it be not a matta` uh inventin` a 'new programme'. da programme aleyebally exists: dat be da plan found in da Gospel and in da livin` Tradition; dat be da same as ever. Ultimately, dat gots its centre in Christ himself, who be to be known, loved and imitated, so that in him we may live da life uh da Trinity, and wid him transform histo`y until its fulfilment in da heavenly Jerusalem\".103 da implementation uh dis programme uh a renewed impetus in Christian livin` passes through da Eucharist.
Every commitment to holiness, every activity aimed at wheelsrying out da Church's mission, every wo`k uh pastoral plannin`, must draw da strength dat needs from da Eucharistic mystery and in turn be directed to that mystery as its culmination. In da Eucharist we have Jesus, we have his redemptive sacrifice, we have his resurrection, we have da gift uh da Holy Spirit, we have adoration, obedience and love uh da pops. Were we to disregard da Eucharist, how could we overcome our own deficiency?
61. da mystery uh da Eucharist - sacrifice, presence, banquet - duz not allow fo` reduction o` exploitation; dat must be experienced and lived in its integrity, both in its celebration and in da intimate converse wid Jesus which snatchs place after receivin` communion o` in a prayerful moment uh Eucharistic adoration apart from Mass. dese be times when da Church be firmly built up and dat becomes clear what she truly be: one, holy, catholic and apostolic; da people, temple and family uh God; da body and bride uh Christ, enlivened by da Holy Spirit; da universal sacrament uh salvation and a hierarchically structured communion.
The path snatchn by da Church in dese fust years uh da third millennium be also a path uh renewed ecumenical commitment. da final decades uh da second millennium, culminatin` in da Grfeed Jubilee, have spurred us along dis path and called fo` all da baptized to respond to da prayer uh Jesus \"ut unum sint \" (Jn 17:11). da path itself be long and strewn wid obstacles grfeeder than our human resources alone kin overcome, yet we have da Eucharist, and in its presence we kin hear in da depths uh our hearts, as if they were addressed to us, da same wo`ds heard by da Prophet Elijah: \"Arise and feed, else da journey will be n` all grfeed fo` you\" (1 Kg 19:7). da treasho` uh da Eucharist, which da Lord places befo`e us, impels us towards da goal uh full sharin` wid all our brothas and sistas to whom we be joined by our common Baptism. But if dis treasho` be not to be squandered, we need to respect da demands which derive from its being da sacrament uh communion in faith and in apostolic succession.
By givin` da Eucharist da prominence dat deserves, and by being wheelseful not to diminish enny uh its dimensions o` demands, we show that we be truly conscious uh da grfeedness uh dis gift. We be urged to do so by an uninterrupted tradition, which from da fust centuries on gots found da Christian community ever vigilant in guarding dis \"treasho`\". Inspired by love, da Church be anxious to hand on to future generations uh Christians, widout loss, her faith and teaching wid regard to da mystery uh da Eucharist. dere kin be no danger uh excess in our wheelse fo` dis mystery, fo` \"in dis sacrament be recapitulated da whole mystery uh our salvation\".104
62. Let us snatch our place, dear brothas and sistas, at da school uh da saints, who be da grfeed interpreters uh true Eucharistic piety. In dem da theology uh da Eucharist snatchs on all da splendour uh a lived reality; dat becomes \"contagious\" and, in a manner uh speakin`, dat \"warms our hearts\". Above all, let us listen to Mary Most Holy, in whom da mystery uh da Eucharist appears, mo`e than in ennyone else, as a mystery uh light. Gazing upon Mary, we mosey on down to know da transformin` power present in da Eucharist. In her we see da wo`ld renewed in love. Contemplatin` her, assumed body and soul into heaven, we see jimmeyin` up befo`e us those \"new heavens\" and that \"new earth\" which will appear at da second comin` uh Christ. Here below, da Eucharist represents their pledge, and in a certain way, their anticipation: \"Veni, Domine Iesu!\" (Rev 22:20).
In da humble signs uh beyeball and wine, changed into his body and blood, Christ walks beside us as our strength and our food fo` da journey, and he enables us to become, fo` everyone, witnesses uh hope. If, in da presence uh dis mystery, reason experiences its limits, da heart, enlightened by da grace uh da Holy Spirit, clearly sees da response that be demanded, and bows low in adoration and unbounded love.
Let us make our own da wo`ds uh Saint Thomas Aquinas, an eminent theologian and an impassioned poet uh Christ in da Eucharist, and turn in hope to da contemplation uh that goal to which our hearts aspire in their thirst fo` joy and peace:
Bone pastor, panis vere,
Iesu, nostrah` miserere...
Come then, phat Shepherd, beyeball divine,
Still show to us thy mercy sign;
Oh, feed us, still keep us thine;
So we may see thy glories shine
in fields uh immo`tality.
O thou, da wisest, mightiest, best,
Our present food, our future rest,
Come, make us each thy chosen guest,
Co-heirs uh thine, and comrades blest
wid saints whose dwelling be wid thee.
Given in Rome, at Saint Peter's, on 17 April, Holy Thursday, in da year 2003, da Twenty- fifth uh my Pontificate, da Year uh da Rosary.
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 4:21 PM
Fr. J,
You kook, atheism isn't a philosophy. It's a state of disbelief in gods. Just like your (I presume) disbelief in Santa Claus is a state of disbelief and not a whole philosophy.
I challenge you to define atheism in an objective manner.
This should be revealing.
Posted by: Helioprogenus | July 24, 2008 4:21 PM
Did you all hear that? No? That's the sound of an idiot masturbating over a treastise that another idiot with a hat decided to implement a number of years ago. Listen, do you morons actually seriously think you're going to convert even one person here? If you really want to save someone, go help those suffering with aids because they were told they would go to hell for using contraceptives. Go to the little children molested by priests and help them understand that only sick, misguided individuals like yourselves would ever do that to them. While you're at it, why don't you pray to your imaginary deity and stop pestering us. You're just proving why we don't need your kind, and why the world would be better off when all of you are dead and gone. In Essence, go fuck yourselves your religious assholes.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:22 PM
Go John go! LOL
Posted by: david broome | July 24, 2008 4:23 PM
Way to go, PZ. You have my full support. Its time to stand up and be counted for your what you DO believe in: the power of evidence and reasoned argument. Long live science!
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 4:23 PM
PZ, get rid of spamming John. A single post and a link from him would have sufficed, but nooo... now everyone has to spend forty thousand minutes scrolling past his nonsense to see the rest of the comments.
Posted by: Enshoku | July 24, 2008 4:24 PM
nina, that is bullshit. Science does explain altruism(goodness), morality, and that little thing called violence. The first two stem from societal structures as well as propagation of the species, and violence comes from too many things to name, emotional highs, lack of education, primitive instincts, etc.
Posted by: dubiquiabs | July 24, 2008 4:24 PM
@ #121 #134 #145 #151 and all the other believers:
"Absolute Truth" appears to be neither.
Posted by: AGH | July 24, 2008 4:25 PM
Nice desecration, PZ! You still have the option to hock a loogie on it if necessary.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 24, 2008 4:25 PM
Ogod. Your blog has been Ecclesiastijacked.
Posted by: oldcola | July 24, 2008 4:25 PM
Quite entertaining post, thank you PZ.
People, let's get PZ's trash viral, all over the blogs ;-)
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:25 PM
Well done John. Speaking of John ......
The Gospel According to Saint John
1:1In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 1:2The same was in the beginning with God. 1:3All things were made through him; and without him was not anything made that hath been made. 1:4In him was life; and the life was the light of men. 1:5And the light shineth in the darkness; and the darkness apprehended it not. 1:6There came a man, sent from God, whose name was John. 1:7The same came for witness, that he might bear witness of the light, that all might believe through him. 1:8He was not the light, but came that he might bear witness of the light. 1:9There was the true light, even the light which lighteth every man, coming into the world. 1:10He was in the world, and the world was made through him, and the world knew him not. 1:11He came unto his own, and they that were his own received him not. 1:12But as many as received him, to them gave he the right to become children of God, even to them that believe on his name: 1:13who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God. 1:14And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us (and we beheld his glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father), full of grace and truth. 1:15John beareth witness of him, and crieth, saying, This was he of whom I said, He that cometh after me is become before me: for he was before me. 1:16For of his fulness we all received, and grace for grace. 1:17For the law was given through Moses; grace and truth came through Jesus Christ. 1:18No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him. 1:19And this is the witness of John, when the Jews sent unto him from Jerusalem priests and Levites to ask him, Who art thou? 1:20And he confessed, and denied not; and he confessed, I am not the Christ. 1:21And they asked him, What then? Art thou Elijah? And he saith, I am not. Art thou the prophet? And he answered, No. 1:22They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? that we may give an answer to them that sent us. What sayest thou of thyself? 1:23He said, I am the voice of one crying in the wilderness, Make straight the way of the Lord, as said Isaiah the prophet. 1:24And they had been sent from the Pharisees. 1:25And they asked him, and said unto him, Why then baptizest thou, if thou art not the Christ, neither Elijah, neither the prophet? 1:26John answered them, saying, I baptize in water: in the midst of you standeth one whom ye know not, 1:27even he that cometh after me, the latchet of whose shoe I am not worthy to unloose. 1:28These things were done in Bethany beyond the Jordan, where John was baptizing. 1:29On the morrow he seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God, that taketh away the sin of the world! 1:30This is he of whom I said, After me cometh a man who is become before me: for he was before me. 1:31And I knew him not; but that he should be made manifest to Israel, for this cause came I baptizing in water. 1:32And John bare witness, saying, I have beheld the Spirit descending as a dove out of heaven; and it abode upon him. 1:33And I knew him not: but he that sent me to baptize in water, he said unto me, Upon whomsoever thou shalt see the Spirit descending, and abiding upon him, the same is he that baptizeth in the Holy Spirit. 1:34And I have seen, and have borne witness that this is the Son of God. 1:35Again on the morrow John was standing, and two of his disciples; 1:36and he looked upon Jesus as he walked, and saith, Behold, the Lamb of God! 1:37And the two disciples heard him speak, and they followed Jesus. 1:38And Jesus turned, and beheld them following, and saith unto them, What seek ye? And they said unto him, Rabbi (which is to say, being interpreted, Teacher), where abideth thou? 1:39He saith unto them, Come, and ye shall see. They came therefore and saw where he abode; and they abode with him that day: it was about the tenth hour. 1:40One of the two that heard John speak, and followed him, was Andrew, Simon Peter's brother. 1:41He findeth first his own brother Simon, and saith unto him, We have found the Messiah (which is, being interpreted, Christ). 1:42He brought him unto Jesus. Jesus looked upon him, and said, Thou art Simon the son of John: thou shalt be called Cephas (which is by interpretation, Peter). 1:43On the morrow he was minded to go forth into Galilee, and he findeth Philip: and Jesus saith unto him, Follow me. 1:44Now Philip was from Bethsaida, of the city of Andrew and Peter. 1:45Philip findeth Nathanael, and saith unto him, We have found him, of whom Moses in the law, and the prophets, wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph. 1:46And Nathanael said unto him, Can any good thing come out of Nazareth? Philip saith unto him, Come and see. 1:47Jesus saw Nathanael coming to him, and saith of him, Behold, an Israelite indeed, in whom is no guile! 1:48Nathanael saith unto him, Whence knowest thou me? Jesus answered and said unto him, Before Philip called thee, when thou wast under the fig tree, I saw thee. 1:49Nathanael answered him, Rabbi, thou art the Son of God; thou art King of Israel. 1:50Jesus answered and said unto him, Because I said unto thee, I saw thee underneath the fig tree, believest thou? thou shalt see greater things than these. 1:51And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye shall see the heaven opened, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.
2:1And the third day there was a marriage in Cana of Galilee; and the mother of Jesus was there: 2:2and Jesus also was bidden, and his disciples, to the marriage. 2:3And when the wine failed, the mother of Jesus saith unto him, They have no wine. 2:4And Jesus saith unto her, Woman, what have I to do with thee? mine hour is not yet come. 2:5His mother saith unto the servants, Whatsoever he saith unto you, do it. 2:6Now there were six waterpots of stone set there after the Jews' manner of purifying, containing two or three firkins apiece. 2:7Jesus saith unto them, Fill the waterpots with water. And they filled them up to the brim. 2:8And he saith unto them, Draw out now, and bear unto the ruler of the feast. And they bare it. 2:9And when the ruler of the feast tasted the water now become wine, and knew not whence it was (but the servants that had drawn the water knew), the ruler of the feast calleth the bridegroom, 2:10and saith unto him, Every man setteth on first the good wine; and when men have drunk freely, then that which is worse: thou hast kept the good wine until now. 2:11This beginning of his signs did Jesus in Cana of Galilee, and manifested his glory; and his disciples believed on him. 2:12After this he went down to Capernaum, he, and his mother, and his brethren, and his disciples; and there they abode not many days. 2:13And the passover of the Jews was at hand, and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 2:14And he found in the temple those that sold oxen and sheep and doves, and the changers of money sitting: 2:15and he made a scourge of cords, and cast all out of the temple, both the sheep and the oxen; and he poured out the changers' money, and overthrew their tables; 2:16and to them that sold the doves he said, Take these things hence; make not my Father's house a house of merchandise. 2:17His disciples remembered that it was written, Zeal for thy house shall eat me up. 2:18The Jews therefore answered and said unto him, What sign showest thou unto us, seeing that thou doest these things? 2:19Jesus answered and said unto them, Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up. 2:20The Jews therefore said, Forty and six years was this temple in building, and wilt thou raise it up in three days? 2:21But he spake of the temple of his body. 2:22When therefore he was raised from the dead, his disciples remembered that he spake this; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said. 2:23Now when he was in Jerusalem at the passover, during the feast, many believed on his name, beholding his signs which he did. 2:24But Jesus did not trust himself unto them, for that he knew all men, 2:25and because he needed not that any one should bear witness concerning man; for he himself knew what was in man.
3:1Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews: 3:2the same came unto him by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God; for no one can do these signs that thou doest, except God be with him. 3:3Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born anew, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 3:4Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter a second time into his mother's womb, and be born? 3:5Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except one be born of water and the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God! 3:6That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 3:7Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born anew. 3:8The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the voice thereof, but knowest not whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 3:9Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 3:10Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou the teacher of Israel, and understandest not these things? 3:11Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that which we know, and bear witness of that which we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 3:12If I told you earthly things and ye believe not, how shall ye believe if I tell you heavenly things? 3:13And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven. 3:14And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up; 3:15that whosoever believeth may in him have eternal life. 3:16For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have eternal life. 3:17For God sent not the Son into the world to judge the world; but that the world should be saved through him. 3:18He that believeth on him is not judged: he that believeth not hath been judged already, because he hath not believed on the name of the only begotten Son of God. 3:19And this is the judgment, that the light is come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the light; for their works were evil. 3:20For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, and cometh not to the light, lest his works should be reproved. 3:21But he that doeth the truth cometh to the light, that his works may be made manifest, that they have been wrought in God. 3:22After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judea; and there he tarried with them, and baptized. 3:23And John also was baptizing in Enon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized. 3:24For John was not yet cast into prison. 3:25There arose therefore a questioning on the part of John's disciples with a Jew about purifying. 3:26And they came unto John, and said to him, Rabbi, he that was with thee beyond the Jordan, to whom thou hast borne witness, behold, the same baptizeth, and all men come to him. 3:27John answered and said, A man can receive nothing, except it have been given him from heaven. 3:28Ye yourselves bear me witness, that I said, I am not the Christ, but, that I am sent before him. 3:29He that hath the bride is the bridegroom: but the friend of the bridegroom, that standeth and heareth him, rejoiceth greatly because of the bridegroom's voice: this my joy therefore is made full. 3:30He must increase, but I must decrease. 3:31He that cometh from above is above all: he that is of the earth is of the earth, and of the earth he speaketh: he that cometh from heaven is above all. 3:32What he hath seen and heard, of that he beareth witness; and no man receiveth his witness. 3:33He that hath received his witness hath set his seal to this, that God is true. 3:34For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for he giveth not the Spirit by measure. 3:35The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand. 3:36He that believeth on the Son hath eternal life; but he that obeyeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God abideth on him.
4:1When therefore the Lord knew that the Pharisees had heard that Jesus was making and baptizing more disciples than John 4:2(although Jesus himself baptized not, but his disciples), 4:3he left Judea, and departed again into Galilee. 4:4And he must needs pass through Samaria. 4:5So he cometh to a city of Samaria, called Sychar, near to the parcel of ground that Jacob gave to his son Joseph: 4:6and Jacob's well was there. Jesus therefore, being wearied with his journey, sat thus by the well. It was about the sixth hour. 4:7There cometh a woman of Samaria to draw water: Jesus saith unto her, Give me to drink. 4:8For his disciples were gone away into the city to buy food. 4:9The Samaritan woman therefore saith unto him, How is it that thou, being a Jew, askest drink of me, who am a Samaritan woman? (For Jews have no dealings with Samaritans.) 4:10Jesus answered and said unto unto her, If thou knewest the gift of God, and who it is that saith to thee, Give me to drink; thou wouldest have asked of him, and he would have given thee living water. 4:11The woman saith unto him, Sir, thou hast nothing to draw with, and the well is deep: whence then hast thou that living water? 4:12Art thou greater than our father Jacob, who gave us the well, and drank thereof himself, and his sons, and his cattle? 4:13Jesus answered and said unto her, Every one that drinketh of this water shall thirst again: 4:14but whosoever drinketh of the water that I shall give him shall never thirst; but the water that I shall give him shall become in him a well of water springing up unto eternal life. 4:15The woman saith unto him, Sir, give me this water, that I thirst not, neither come all the way hither to draw. 4:16Jesus saith unto her, Go, call thy husband, and come hither. 4:17The woman answered and said unto him, I have no husband. Jesus saith unto her, Thou saidst well, I have no husband: 4:18for thou hast had five husbands; and he whom thou now hast is not thy husband: this hast thou said truly. 4:19The woman saith unto him, Sir, I perceive that thou art a prophet. 4:20Our fathers worshipped in this mountain; and ye say, that in Jerusalem is the place where men ought to worship. 4:21Jesus saith unto her, Woman, believe me, the hour cometh, when neither in this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, shall ye worship the Father. 4:22Ye worship that which ye know not: we worship that which we know; for salvation is from the Jews. 4:23But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and truth: for such doth the Father seek to be his worshippers. 4:24God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship in spirit and truth. 4:25The woman saith unto him, I know that Messiah cometh (he that is called Christ): when he is come, he will declare unto us all things. 4:26Jesus saith unto her, I that speak unto thee am he. 4:27And upon this came his disciples; and they marvelled that he was speaking with a woman; yet no man said, What seekest thou? or, Why speakest thou with her? 4:28So the woman left her waterpot, and went away into the city, and saith to the people, 4:29Come, see a man, who told me all things that ever I did: can this be the Christ? 4:30They went out of the city, and were coming to him. 4:31In the mean while the disciples prayed him, saying, Rabbi, eat. 4:32But he said unto them, I have meat to eat that ye know not. 4:33The disciples therefore said one to another, Hath any man brought him aught to eat? 4:34Jesus saith unto them, My meat is to do the will of him that sent me, and to accomplish his work. 4:35Say not ye, There are yet four months, and then cometh the harvest? behold, I say unto you, Lift up your eyes, and look on the fields, that they are white already unto harvest. 4:36He that reapeth receiveth wages, and gathereth fruit unto life eternal; that he that soweth and he that reapeth may rejoice together. 4:37For herein is the saying true, One soweth, and another reapeth. 4:38I sent you to reap that whereon ye have not labored: others have labored, and ye are entered into their labor. 4:39And from that city many of the Samaritans believed on him because of the word of the woman, who testified, He told me all things that ever I did. 4:40So when the Samaritans came unto him, they besought him to abide with them: and he abode there two days. 4:41And many more believed because of his word; 4:42and they said to the woman, Now we believe, not because of thy speaking: for we have heard for ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Saviour of the world. 4:43And after the two days he went forth from thence into Galilee. 4:44For Jesus himself testified, that a prophet hath no honor in his own country. 4:45So when he came into Galilee, the Galilaeans received him, having seen all the things that he did in Jerusalem at the feast: for they also went unto the feast. 4:46He came therefore again unto Cana of Galilee, where he made the water wine. And there was a certain nobleman, whose son was sick at Capernaum. 4:47When he heard that Jesus was come out of Judaea into Galilee, he went unto him, and besought him that he would come down, and heal his son; for he was at the point of death. 4:48Jesus therefore said unto him, Except ye see signs and wonders, ye will in no wise believe. 4:49The nobleman saith unto him, Sir, come down ere my child die. 4:50Jesus saith unto him, Go thy way; thy son liveth. The man believed the word that Jesus spake unto him, and he went his way. 4:51And as he was now going down, his servants met him, saying, that his son lived. 4:52So he inquired of them the hour when he began to amend. They said therefore unto him, Yesterday at the seventh hour the fever left him. 4:53So the father knew that it was at that hour in which Jesus said unto him, Thy son liveth: and himself believed, and his whole house. 4:54This is again the second sign that Jesus did, having come out of Judaea into Galilee.
5:1After these things there was a feast of the Jews; and Jesus went up to Jerusalem. 5:2Now there is in Jerusalem by the sheep gate a pool, which is called in Hebrew Bethesda, having five porches. 5:3In these lay a multitude of them that were sick, blind, halt, withered, waiting for the moving of the water. 5:4for an angel of the Lord went down at certain seasons into the pool, and troubled the water: whosoever then first after the troubling of the waters stepped in was made whole, with whatsoever disease he was holden. 5:5And a certain man was there, who had been thirty and eight years in his infirmity. 5:6When Jesus saw him lying, and knew that he had been now a long time in that case, he saith unto him, Wouldest thou be made whole? 5:7The sick man answered him, Sir, I have no man, when the water is troubled, to put me into the pool: but while I am coming, another steppeth down before me. 5:8Jesus saith unto him, Arise, take up thy bed, and walk. 5:9And straightway the man was made whole, and took up his bed and walked. Now it was the sabbath on that day. 5:10So the Jews said unto him that was cured, It is the sabbath, and it is not lawful for thee to take up thy bed. 5:11But he answered them, He that made me whole, the same said unto me, Take up thy bed, and walk. 5:12They asked him, Who is the man that said unto thee, Take up thy bed, and walk? 5:13But he that was healed knew not who it was; for Jesus had conveyed himself away, a multitude being in the place. 5:14Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing befall thee. 5:15The man went away, and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had made him whole. 5:16And for this cause the Jews persecuted Jesus, because he did these things on the sabbath. 5:17But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh even until now, and I work. 5:18For this cause therefore the Jews sought the more to kill him, because he not only brake the sabbath, but also called God his own Father, making himself equal with God. 5:19Jesus therefore answered and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father doing: for what things soever he doeth, these the Son also doeth in like manner. 5:20For the Father loveth the Son, and showeth him all things that himself doeth: and greater works than these will he show him, that ye may marvel. 5:21For as the Father raiseth the dead and giveth them life, even so the Son also giveth life to whom he will. 5:22For neither doth the Father judge any man, but he hath given all judgment unto the Son; 5:23that all may honor the Son, even as they honor the Father. He that honoreth not the Son honoreth not the Father that sent him. 5:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth him that sent me, hath eternal life, and cometh not into judgment, but hath passed out of death into life. 5:25Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour cometh, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God; and they that hear shall live. 5:26For as the Father hath life in himself, even so gave he to the Son also to have life in himself: 5:27and he gave him authority to execute judgment, because he is a son of man. 5:28Marvel not at this: for the hour cometh, in which all that are in the tombs shall hear his voice, 5:29and shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of judgment. 5:30I can of myself do nothing: as I hear, I judge: and my judgment is righteous; because I seek not mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 5:31If I bear witness of myself, my witness is not true. 5:32It is another that beareth witness of me; and I know that the witness which he witnesseth of me is true. 5:33Ye have sent unto John, and he hath borne witness unto the truth. 5:34But the witness which I receive is not from man: howbeit I say these things, that ye may be saved. 5:35He was the lamp that burneth and shineth; and ye were willing to rejoice for a season in his light. 5:36But the witness which I have is greater than that of John; for the works which the Father hath given me to accomplish, the very works that I do, bear witness of me, that the Father hath sent me. 5:37And the Father that sent me, he hath borne witness of me. Ye have neither heard his voice at any time, nor seen his form. 5:38And ye have not his word abiding in you: for whom he sent, him ye believe not. 5:39Ye search the scriptures, because ye think that in them ye have eternal life; and these are they which bear witness of me; 5:40and ye will not come to me, that ye may have life. 5:41I receive not glory from men. 5:42But I know you, that ye have not the love of God in yourselves. 5:43I am come in my Father's name, and ye receive me not: if another shall come in his own name, him ye will receive. 5:44How can ye believe, who receive glory one of another, and the glory that cometh from the only God ye seek not? 5:45Think not that I will accuse you to the Father: there is one that accuseth you, even Moses, on whom ye have set your hope. 5:46For if ye believed Moses, ye would believe me; for he wrote of me. 5:47But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?
6:1After these things Jesus went away to the other side of the sea of Galilee, which is the sea of Tiberias. 6:2And a great multitude followed him, because they beheld the signs which he did on them that were sick. 6:3And Jesus went up into the mountain, and there he sat with his disciples. 6:4Now the passover, the feast of the Jews, was at hand. 6:5Jesus therefore lifting up his eyes, and seeing that a great multitude cometh unto him, saith unto Philip, Whence are we to buy bread, that these may eat? 6:6And this he said to prove him: for he himself knew what he would do. 6:7Philip answered him, Two hundred shillings' worth of bread is not sufficient for them, that every one may take a little. 6:8One of his disciples, Andrew, Simon Peter's brother, saith unto him, 6:9There is a lad here, who hath five barley loaves, and two fishes: but what are these among so many? 6:10Jesus said, Make the people sit down. Now there was much grass in the place. So the men sat down, in number about five thousand. 6:11Jesus therefore took the loaves; and having given thanks, he distributed to them that were set down; likewise also of the fishes as much as they would. 6:12And when they were filled, he saith unto his disciples, Gather up the broken pieces which remain over, that nothing be lost. 6:13So they gathered them up, and filled twelve baskets with broken pieces from the five barley loaves, which remained over unto them that had eaten. 6:14When therefore the people saw the sign which he did, they said, This is of a truth the prophet that cometh into the world. 6:15Jesus therefore perceiving that they were about to come and take him by force, to make him king, withdrew again into the mountain himself alone. 6:16And when evening came, his disciples went down unto the sea; 6:17and they entered into a boat, and were going over the sea unto Capernaum. And it was now dark, and Jesus had not yet come to them. 6:18And the sea was rising by reason of a great wind that blew. 6:19When therefore they had rowed about five and twenty or thirty furlongs, they behold Jesus walking on the sea, and drawing nigh unto the boat: and they were afraid. 6:20But he saith unto them, It is I; be not afraid. 6:21They were willing therefore to receive him into the boat: and straightway the boat was at the land whither they were going. 6:22On the morrow the multitude that stood on the other side of the sea saw that there was no other boat there, save one, and that Jesus entered not with his disciples into the boat, but that his disciples went away alone 6:23(howbeit there came boats from Tiberias nigh unto the place where they ate the bread after the Lord had given thanks): 6:24when the multitude therefore saw that Jesus was not there, neither his disciples, they themselves got into the boats, and came to Capernaum, seeking Jesus. 6:25And when they found him on the other side of the sea, they said unto him, Rabbi, when camest thou hither? 6:26Jesus answered them and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Ye seek me, not because ye saw signs, but because ye ate of the loaves, and were filled. 6:27Work not for the food which perisheth, but for the food which abideth unto eternal life, which the Son of man shall give unto you: for him the Father, even God, hath sealed. 6:28They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? 6:29Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent. 6:30They said therefore unto him, What then doest thou for a sign, that we may see, and believe thee? what workest thou? 6:31Our fathers ate the manna in the wilderness; as it is written, He gave them bread out of heaven to eat. 6:32Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, It was not Moses that gave you the bread out of heaven; but my Father giveth you the true bread out of heaven. 6:33For the bread of God is that which cometh down out of heaven, and giveth life unto the world. 6:34They said therefore unto him, Lord, evermore give us this bread. 6:35Jesus said unto them. I am the bread of life: he that cometh to me shall not hunger, and he that believeth on me shall never thirst. 6:36But I said unto you, that ye have seen me, and yet believe not. 6:37All that which the Father giveth me shall come unto me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out. 6:38For I am come down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. 6:39And this is the will of him that sent me, that of all that which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day. 6:40For this is the will of my Father, that every one that beholdeth the Son, and believeth on him, should have eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:41The Jews therefore murmured concerning him, because he said, I am the bread which came down out of heaven. 6:42And they said, Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? how doth he now say, I am come down out of heaven? 6:43Jesus answered and said unto them, Murmur not among yourselves. 6:44No man can come to me, except the Father that sent me draw him: and I will raise him up in the last day. 6:45It is written in the prophets, And they shall all be taught of God. Every one that hath heard from the Father, and hath learned, cometh unto me. 6:46Not that any man hath seen the Father, save he that is from God, he hath seen the Father. 6:47Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth hath eternal life. 6:48I am the bread of life. 6:49Your fathers ate the manna in the wilderness, and they died. 6:50This is the bread which cometh down out of heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. 6:51I am the living bread which came down out of heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: yea and the bread which I will give is my flesh, for the life of the world. 6:52The Jews therefore strove one with another, saying, How can this man give us his flesh to eat? 6:53Jesus therefore said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man and drink his blood, ye have not life in yourselves. 6:54He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood hath eternal life: and I will raise him up at the last day. 6:55For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 6:56He that eateth my flesh and drinketh my blood abideth in me, and I in him. 6:57As the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father; so he that eateth me, he also shall live because of me. 6:58This is the bread which came down out of heaven: not as the fathers ate, and died; he that eateth this bread shall live for ever. 6:59These things said he in the synagogue, as he taught in Capernaum. 6:60Many therefore of his disciples, when the heard this, said, This is a hard saying; who can hear it? 6:61But Jesus knowing in himself that his disciples murmured at this, said unto them, Doth this cause you to stumble? 6:62What then if ye should behold the Son of man ascending where he was before? 6:63It is the spirit that giveth life; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I have spoken unto you are spirit, are are life. 6:64But there are some of you that believe not. For Jesus knew from the beginning who they were that believed not, and who it was that should betray him. 6:65And he said, For this cause have I said unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it be given unto him of the Father. 6:66Upon this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with him. 6:67Jesus said therefore unto the twelve, Would ye also go away? 6:68Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 6:69And we have believed and know that thou art the Holy One of God. 6:70Jesus answered them, Did not I choose you the twelve, and one of you is a devil? 6:71Now he spake of Judas the son of Simon Iscariot, for he it was that should betray him, being one of the twelve.
7:1And after these things Jesus walked in Galilee: for he would not walk in Judaea, because the Jews sought to kill him. 7:2Now the feast of the Jews, the feast of tabernacles, was at hand. 7:3His brethren therefore said unto him, Depart hence, and go into Judaea, that thy disciples also may behold thy works which thou doest. 7:4For no man doeth anything in secret, and himself seeketh to be known openly. If thou doest these things, manifest thyself to the world. 7:5For even his brethren did not believe on him. 7:6Jesus therefore saith unto them, My time is not yet come; but your time is always ready. 7:7The world cannot hate you; but me it hateth, because I testify of it, that its works are evil. 7:8Go ye up unto the feast: I go not up unto this feast; because my time is not yet fulfilled. 7:9And having said these things unto them, he abode still in Galilee. 7:10But when his brethren were gone up unto the feast, then went he also up, not publicly, but as it were in secret. 7:11The Jews therefore sought him at the feast, and said, Where is he? 7:12And there was much murmuring among the multitudes concerning him: some said, He is a good man; others said, Not so, but he leadeth the multitude astray. 7:13Yet no man spake openly of him for fear of the Jews. 7:14But when it was now the midst of the feast Jesus went up into the temple, and taught. 7:15The Jews therefore marvelled, saying, How knoweth this man letters, having never learned? 7:16Jesus therefore answered them and said, My teaching is not mine, but his that sent me. 7:17If any man willeth to do his will, he shall know of the teaching, whether it is of God, or whether I speak from myself. 7:18He that speaketh from himself seeketh his own glory: but he that seeketh the glory of him that sent him, the same is true, and no unrighteousness is in him. 7:19Did not Moses give you the law, and yet none of you doeth the law? Why seek ye to kill me? 7:20The multitude answered, Thou hast a demon: who seeketh to kill thee? 7:21Jesus answered and said unto them, I did one work, and ye all marvel because thereof. 7:22Moses hath given you circumcision (not that it is of Moses, but of the fathers); and on the sabbath ye circumcise a man. 7:23If a man receiveth circumcision on the sabbath, that the law of Moses may not be broken; are ye wroth with me, because I made a man every whit whole on the sabbath? 7:24Judge not according to appearance, but judge righteous judgment. 7:25Some therefore of them of Jerusalem said, Is not this he whom they seek to kill? 7:26And lo, he speaketh openly, and they say nothing unto him. Can it be that the rulers indeed know that this is the Christ? 7:27Howbeit we know this man whence he is: but when the Christ cometh, no one knoweth whence he is. 7:28Jesus therefore cried in the temple, teaching and saying, Ye both know me, and know whence I am; and I am not come of myself, but he that sent me is true, whom ye know not. 7:29I know him; because I am from him, and he sent me. 7:30They sought therefore to take him: and no man laid his hand on him, because his hour was not yet come. 7:31But of the multitude many believed on him; and they said, When the Christ shall come, will he do more signs than those which this man hath done? 7:32The Pharisees heard the multitude murmuring these things concerning him; and the chief priests and the Pharisees sent officers to take him. 7:33Jesus therefore said, Yet a little while am I with you, and I go unto him that sent me. 7:34Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me: and where I am, ye cannot come. 7:35The Jews therefore said among themselves, Whither will this man go that we shall not find him? will he go unto the Dispersion among the Greeks, and teach the Greeks? 7:36What is this word that he said, Ye shall seek me, and shall not find me; and where I am, ye cannot come? 7:37Now on the last day, the great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me and drink. 7:38He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, from within him shall flow rivers of living water. 7:39But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believed on him were to receive: for the Spirit was not yet given; because Jesus was not yet glorified. 7:40Some of the multitude therefore, when they heard these words, said, This is of a truth the prophet. 7:41Others said, This is the Christ. But some said, What, doth the Christ come out of Galilee? 7:42Hath not the scripture said that the Christ cometh of the seed of David, and from Bethlehem, the village where David was? 7:43So there arose a division in the multitude because of him. 7:44And some of them would have taken him; but no man laid hands on him. 7:45The officers therefore came to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why did ye not bring him? 7:46The officers answered, Never man so spake. 7:47The Pharisees therefore answered them, Are ye also led astray? 7:48Hath any of the rulers believed on him, or of the Pharisees? 7:49But this multitude that knoweth not the law are accursed. 7:50Nicodemus saith unto them (he that came to him before, being one of them), 7:51Doth our law judge a man, except it first hear from himself and know what he doeth? 7:52They answered and said unto him, Art thou also of Galilee? Search, and see that out of Galilee ariseth no prophet.
7:53And they went every man unto his own house:
8:1but Jesus went unto the mount of Olives. 8:2And early in the morning he came again into the temple, and all the people came unto him; and he sat down, and taught them. 8:3And the scribes and the Pharisees bring a woman taken in adultery; and having set her in the midst, 8:4they say unto him, Teacher, this woman hath been taken in adultery, in the very act. 8:5Now in the law Moses commanded us to stone such: what then sayest thou of her? 8:6And this they said, trying him, that they might have whereof to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. 8:7But when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her. 8:8And again he stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground. 8:9And they, when they heard it, went out one by one, beginning from the eldest, even unto the last: and Jesus was left alone, and the woman, where she was, in the midst. 8:10And Jesus lifted up himself, and said unto her, Woman, where are they? did no man condemn thee? 8:11And she said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said, Neither do I condemn thee: go thy way; from henceforth sin no more. 8:12Again therefore Jesus spake unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in the darkness, but shall have the light of life. 8:13The Pharisees therefore said unto him, Thou bearest witness of thyself; thy witness is not true. 8:14Jesus answered and said unto them, Even if I bear witness of myself, my witness is true; for I know whence I came, and whither I go; but ye know not whence I come, or whither I go. 8:15Ye judge after the flesh; I judge no man. 8:16Yea and if I judge, my judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I and the Father that sent me. 8:17Yea and in your law it is written, that the witness of two men is true. 8:18I am he that beareth witness of myself, and the Father that sent me beareth witness of me. 8:19They said therefore unto him, Where is thy Father? Jesus answered, Ye know neither me, nor my Father: if ye knew me, ye would know my Father also. 8:20These words spake he in the treasury, as he taught in the temple: and no man took him; because his hour was not yet come. 8:21He said therefore again unto them, I go away, and ye shall seek me, and shall die in your sin: whither I go, ye cannot come. 8:22The Jews therefore said, Will he kill himself, that he saith, Whither I go, ye cannot come? 8:23And he said unto them, Ye are from beneath; I am from above: ye are of this world; I am not of this world. 8:24I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for except ye believe that I am he, ye shall die in your sins. 8:25They said therefore unto him, Who art thou? Jesus said unto them, Even that which I have also spoken unto you from the beginning. 8:26I have many things to speak and to judge concerning you: howbeit he that sent me is true; and the things which I heard from him, these speak I unto the world. 8:27They perceived not that he spake to them of the Father. 8:28Jesus therefore said, When ye have lifted up the Son of man, then shall ye know that I am he, and that I do nothing of myself, but as the Father taught me, I speak these things. 8:29And he that sent me is with me; he hath not left me alone; for I do always the things that are pleasing to him. 8:30As he spake these things, many believed on him. 8:31Jesus therefore said to those Jews that had believed him, If ye abide in my word, then are ye truly my disciples; 8:32and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free. 8:33They answered unto him, We are Abraham's seed, and have never yet been in bondage to any man: how sayest thou, Ye shall be made free? 8:34Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Every one that committeth sin is the bondservant of sin. 8:35And the bondservant abideth not in the house for ever: the son abideth for ever. 8:36If therefore the Son shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed. 8:37I know that ye are Abraham's seed: yet ye seek to kill me, because my word hath not free course in you. 8:38I speak the things which I have seen with my Father: and ye also do the things which ye heard from your father. 8:39They answered and said unto him, Our father is Abraham. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham. 8:40But now ye seek to kill me, a man that hath told you the truth, which I heard from God: this did not Abraham. 8:41Ye do the works of your father. They said unto him, We were not born of fornication; we have one Father, even God. 8:42Jesus said unto them, If God were your Father, ye would love me: for I came forth and am come from God; for neither have I come of myself, but he sent me. 8:43Why do ye not understand my speech? Even because ye cannot hear my word. 8:44Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father it is your will to do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and standeth not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father thereof. 8:45But because I say the truth, ye believe me not. 8:46Which of you convicteth me of sin? If I say truth, why do ye not believe me? 8:47He that is of God heareth the words of God: for this cause ye hear them not, because ye are not of God. 8:48The Jews answered and said unto him, Say we not well that thou art a Samaritan, and hast a demon? 8:49Jesus answered, I have not a demon; but I honor my Father, and ye dishonor me. 8:50But I seek not mine own glory: there is one that seeketh and judgeth. 8:51Verily, verily, I say unto you, If a man keep my word, he shall never see death. 8:52The Jews said unto him, Now we know that thou hast a demon. Abraham died, and the prophets; and thou sayest, If a man keep my word, he shall never taste of death. 8:53Art thou greater than our father Abraham, who died? and the prophets died: whom makest thou thyself? 8:54Jesus answered, If I glorify myself, my glory is nothing: it is my Father that glorifieth me; of whom ye say, that he is your God; 8:55and ye have not known him: but I know him; and if I should say, I know him not, I shall be like unto you, a liar: but I know him, and keep his word. 8:56Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day; and he saw it, and was glad. 8:57The Jews therefore said unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? 8:58Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was born, I am. 8:59They took up stones therefore to cast at him: but Jesus hid himself, and went out of the temple.
9:1And as he passed by, he saw a man blind from his birth. 9:2And his disciples asked him, saying, Rabbi, who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he should be born blind? 9:3Jesus answered, Neither did this man sin, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 9:4We must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. 9:5When I am in the world, I am the light of the world. 9:6When he had thus spoken, he spat on the ground, and made clay of the spittle, and anointed his eyes with the clay, 9:7and said unto him, Go, wash in the pool of Siloam (which is by interpretation, Sent). He went away therefore, and washed, and came seeing. 9:8The neighbors therefore, and they that saw him aforetime, that he was a beggar, said, Is not this he that sat and begged? 9:9Others said, It is he: others said, No, but he is like him. He said, I am he. 9:10They said therefore unto him, How then were thine eyes opened? 9:11He answered, The man that is called Jesus made clay, and anointed mine eyes, and said unto me, Go to Siloam, and wash: so I went away and washed, and I received sight. 9:12And they said unto him, Where is he? He saith, I know not. 9:13They bring to the Pharisees him that aforetime was blind. 9:14Now it was the sabbath on the day when Jesus made the clay, and opened his eyes. 9:15Again therefore the Pharisees also asked him how he received his sight. And he said unto them, He put clay upon mine eyes, and I washed, and I see. 9:16Some therefore of the Pharisees said, This man is not from God, because he keepeth not the sabbath. But others said, How can a man that is a sinner do such signs? And there was division among them. 9:17They say therefore unto the blind man again, What sayest thou of him, in that he opened thine eyes? And he said, He is a prophet. 9:18The Jews therefore did not believe concerning him, that he had been blind, and had received his sight, until they called the parents of him that had received his sight, 9:19and asked them, saying, Is this your son, who ye say was born blind? How then doth he now see? 9:20His parents answered and said, We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind: 9:21but how he now seeth, we know not; or who opened his eyes, we know not: ask him; he is of age; he shall speak for himself. 9:22These things said his parents, because they feared the Jews: for the Jews had agreed already, that if any man should confess him to be Christ, he should be put out of the synagogue. 9:23Therefore said his parents, He is of age; ask him. 9:24So they called a second time the man that was blind, and said unto him, Give glory to God: we know that this man is a sinner. 9:25He therefore answered, Whether he is a sinner, I know not: one thing I know, that, whereas I was blind, now I see. 9:26They said therefore unto him, What did he to thee? How opened he thine eyes? 9:27He answered them, I told you even now, and ye did not hear; wherefore would ye hear it again? would ye also become his disciples? 9:28And they reviled him, and said, Thou art his disciple; but we are disciples of Moses. 9:29We know that God hath spoken unto Moses: but as for this man, we know not whence he is. 9:30The man answered and said unto them, Why, herein is the marvel, that ye know not whence he is, and yet he opened mine eyes. 9:31We know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and do his will, him he heareth. 9:32Since the world began it was never heard that any one opened the eyes of a man born blind. 9:33If this man were not from God, he could do nothing. 9:34They answered and said unto him, Thou wast altogether born in sins, and dost thou teach us? And they cast him out. 9:35Jesus heard that they had cast him out; and finding him, he said, Dost thou believe on the Son of God? 9:36He answered and said, And who is he, Lord, that I may believe on him? 9:37Jesus said unto him, Thou hast both seen him, and he it is that speaketh with thee. 9:38And he said, Lord, I believe. And he worshipped him. 9:39And Jesus said, For judgment came I into this world, that they that see not may see; and that they that see may become blind. 9:40Those of the Pharisees who were with him heard these things, and said unto him, Are we also blind? 9:41Jesus said unto them, If ye were blind, ye would have no sin: but now ye say, We see: your sin remaineth.
10:1Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the fold of the sheep, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 10:2But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 10:3To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 10:4When he hath put forth all his own, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 10:5And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 10:6This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them. 10:7Jesus therefore said unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep. 10:8All that came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them. 10:9I am the door; by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and go out, and shall find pasture. 10:10The thief cometh not, but that he may steal, and kill, and destroy: I came that they may have life, and may have it abundantly. 10:11I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd layeth down his life for the sheep. 10:12He that is a hireling, and not a shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, beholdeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth, and the wolf snatcheth them, and scattereth them: 10:13he fleeth because he is a hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 10:14I am the good shepherd; and I know mine own, and mine own know me, 10:15even as the Father knoweth me, and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. 10:16And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. 10:17Therefore doth the Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I may take it again. 10:18No one taketh it away from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment received I from my Father. 10:19There arose a division again among the Jews because of these words. 10:20And many of them said, He hath a demon, and is mad; why hear ye him? 10:21Others said, These are not the sayings of one possessed with a demon. Can a demon open the eyes of the blind? 10:22And it was the feast of the dedication at Jerusalem: 10:23it was winter; and Jesus was walking in the temple in Solomon's porch. 10:24The Jews therefore came round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou hold us in suspense? If thou art the Christ, tell us plainly. 10:25Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believe not: the works that I do in my Father's name, these bear witness of me. 10:26But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep. 10:27My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 10:28and I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, and no one shall snatch them out of my hand. 10:29My Father, who hath given them unto me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of the Father's hand. 10:30I and the Father are one. 10:31The Jews took up stones again to stone him. 10:32Jesus answered them, Many good works have I showed you from the Father; for which of those works do ye stone me? 10:33The Jews answered him, For a good work we stone thee not, but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God. 10:34Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, ye are gods? 10:35If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came (and the scripture cannot be broken), 10:36say ye of him, whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? 10:37If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not. 10:38But if I do them, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know and understand that the Father is in me, and I in the Father. 10:39They sought again to take him: and he went forth out of their hand. 10:40And he went away again beyond the Jordan into the place where John was at the first baptizing; and there be abode. 10:41And many came unto him; and they said, John indeed did no sign: but all things whatsoever John spake of this man were true. 10:42And many believed on him there.
11:1Now a certain man was sick, Lazarus of Bethany, of the village of Mary and her sister Martha. 11:2And it was that Mary who anointed the Lord with ointment, and wiped his feet with her hair, whose brother Lazarus was sick. 11:3The sisters therefore sent unto him, saying, Lord, behold, he whom thou lovest is sick. 11:4But when Jesus heard it, he said, This sickness is not unto death, but for the glory of God, that the Son of God may be glorified thereby. 11:5Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus. 11:6When therefore he heard that he was sick, he abode at that time two days in the place where he was. 11:7Then after this he saith to the disciples, Let us go into Judaea again. 11:8The disciples say unto him, Rabbi, the Jews were but now seeking to stone thee; and goest thou thither again? 11:9Jesus answered, Are there not twelve hours in the day? If a man walk in the day, he stumbleth not, because he seeth the light of this world. 11:10But if a man walk in the night, he stumbleth, because the light is not in him. 11:11These things spake he: and after this he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus is fallen asleep; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep. 11:12The disciples therefore said unto him, Lord, if he is fallen asleep, he will recover. 11:13Now Jesus had spoken of his death: but they thought that he spake of taking rest in sleep. 11:14Then Jesus therefore said unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead. 11:15And I am glad for your sakes that I was not there, to the intent ye may believe; nevertheless let us go unto him. 11:16Thomas therefore, who is called Didymus, said unto his fellow-disciples, Let us also go, that we may die with him. 11:17So when Jesus came, he found that he had been in the tomb four days already. 11:18Now Bethany was nigh unto Jerusalem, about fifteen furlongs off; 11:19and many of the Jews had come to Martha and Mary, to console them concerning their brother. 11:20Martha therefore, when she heard that Jesus was coming, went and met him: but Mary still sat in the house. 11:21Martha therefore said unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 11:22And even now I know that, whatsoever thou shalt ask of God, God will give thee. 11:23Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. 11:24Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day. 11:25Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth on me, though he die, yet shall he live; 11:26and whosoever liveth and believeth on me shall never die. Believest thou this? 11:27She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I have believed that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, even he that cometh into the world. 11:28And when she had said this, she went away, and called Mary her sister secretly, saying, The Teacher is her, and calleth thee. 11:29And she, when she heard it, arose quickly, and went unto him. 11:30(Now Jesus was not yet come into the village, but was still in the place where Martha met him.) 11:31The Jews then who were with her in the house, and were consoling her, when they saw Mary, that she rose up quickly and went out, followed her, supposing that she was going unto the tomb to weep there. 11:32Mary therefore, when she came where Jesus was, and saw him, fell down at his feet, saying unto him, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. 11:33When Jesus therefore saw her weeping, and the Jews also weeping who came with her, he groaned in the spirit, and was troubled, 11:34and said, Where have ye laid him? They say unto him, Lord, come and see. 11:35Jesus wept. 11:36The Jews therefore said, Behold how he loved him! 11:37But some of them said, Could not this man, who opened the eyes of him that was blind, have caused that this man also should not die? 11:38Jesus therefore again groaning in himself cometh to the tomb. Now it was a cave, and a stone lay against it. 11:39Jesus saith, Take ye away the stone. Martha, the sister of him that was dead, saith unto him, Lord, by this time the body decayeth; for he hath been dead four days. 11:40Jesus saith unto her, Said I not unto thee, that, if thou believedst, thou shouldest see the glory of God? 11:41So they took away the stone. And Jesus lifted up his eyes, and said, Father, I thank thee that thou heardest me. 11:42And I knew that thou hearest me always: but because of the multitude that standeth around I said it, that they may believe that thou didst send me. 11:43And when he had thus spoken, he cried with a loud voice, Lazarus, come forth. 11:44He that was dead came forth, bound hand and foot with grave-clothes; and his face was bound about with a napkin. Jesus saith unto them, Loose him, and let him go. 11:45Many therefore of the Jews, who came to Mary and beheld that which he did, believed on him. 11:46But some of them went away to the Pharisees, and told them the things which Jesus had done. 11:47The chief priests therefore and the Pharisees gathered a council, and said, What do we? for this man doeth many signs. 11:48If we let him thus alone, all men will believe on him: and the Romans will come and take away both our place and our nation. 11:49But a certain one of them, Caiaphas, being high priest that year, said unto them, Ye know nothing at all, 11:50nor do ye take account that it is expedient for you that one man should die for the people, and that the whole nation perish not. 11:51Now this he said not of himself: but, being high priest that year, he prophesied that Jesus should die for the nation; 11:52and not for the nation only, but that he might also gather together into one the children of God that are scattered abroad. 11:53So from that day forth they took counsel that they might put him to death. 11:54Jesus therefore walked no more openly among the Jews, but departed thence into the country near to the wilderness, into a city called Ephraim; and there he tarried with the disciples. 11:55Now the passover of the Jews was at hand: and many went up to Jerusalem out of the country before the passover, to purify themselves. 11:56They sought therefore for Jesus, and spake one with another, as they stood in the temple, What think ye? That he will not come to the feast? 11:57Now the chief priests and the Pharisees had given commandment, that, if any man knew where he was, he should show it, that they might take him.
12:1Jesus therefore six days before the passover came to Bethany, where Lazarus was, whom Jesus raised from the dead. 12:2So they made him a supper there: and Martha served; but Lazarus was one of them that sat at meat with him. 12:3Mary therefore took a pound of ointment of pure nard, very precious, and anointed the feet of Jesus, and wiped his feet with her hair: and the house was filled with the odor of the ointment. 12:4But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples, that should betray him, saith, 12:5Why was not this ointment sold for three hundred shillings, and given to the poor? 12:6Now this he said, not because he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and having the bag took away what was put therein. 12:7Jesus therefore said, Suffer her to keep it against the day of my burying. 12:8For the poor ye have always with you; but me ye have not always. 12:9The common people therefore of the Jews learned that he was there: and they came, not for Jesus' sake only, but that they might see Lazarus also, whom he had raised from the dead. 12:10But the chief priests took counsel that they might put Lazarus also to death; 12:11because that by reason of him many of the Jews went away, and believed on Jesus. 12:12On the morrow a great multitude that had come to the feast, when they heard that Jesus was coming to Jerusalem, 12:13took the branches of the palm trees, and went forth to meet him, and cried out, Hosanna: Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord, even the King of Israel. 12:14And Jesus, having found a young ass, sat thereon; as it is written, 12:15Fear not, daughter of Zion: behold, thy King cometh, sitting on an ass's colt. 12:16These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they that these things were written of him, and that they had done these things unto him. 12:17The multitude therefore that was with him when he called Lazarus out of the tomb, and raised him from the dead, bare witness. 12:18For this cause also the multitude went and met him, for that they heard that he had done this sign. 12:19The Pharisees therefore said among themselves, Behold how ye prevail nothing: lo, the world is gone after him. 12:20Now there were certain Greeks among those that went up to worship at the feast: 12:21these therefore came to Philip, who was of Bethsaida of Galilee, and asked him, saying, Sir, we would see Jesus. 12:22Philip cometh and telleth Andrew: Andrew cometh, and Philip, and they tell Jesus. 12:23And Jesus answereth them, saying, The hour is come, that the Son of man should be glorified. 12:24Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a grain of wheat fall into the earth and die, it abideth by itself alone; but if it die, it beareth much fruit. 12:25He that loveth his life loseth it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. 12:26If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will the Father honor. 12:27Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour. But for this cause came I unto this hour. 12:28Father, glorify thy name. There came therefore a voice out of heaven, saying, I have both glorified it, and will glorify it again. 12:29The multitude therefore, that stood by, and heard it, said that it had thundered: others said, An angel hath spoken to him. 12:30Jesus answered and said, This voice hath not come for my sake, but for your sakes. 12:31Now is the judgment of this world: now shall the prince of this world be cast out. 12:32And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself. 12:33But this he said, signifying by what manner of death he should die. 12:34The multitude therefore answered him, We have heard out of the law that the Christ abideth for ever: and how sayest thou, The Son of man must be lifted up? who is this Son of man? 12:35Jesus therefore said unto them, Yet a little while is the light among you. Walk while ye have the light, that darkness overtake you not: and he that walketh in the darkness knoweth not whither he goeth. 12:36While ye have the light, believe on the light, that ye may become sons of light. These things spake Jesus, and he departed and hid himself from them. 12:37But though he had done so many signs before them, yet they believed not on him: 12:38that the word of Isaiah the prophet might be fulfilled, which he spake,
Lord, who hath believed our report?
And to whom hath the arm of the Lord been revealed?
12:39For this cause they could not believe, for that Isaiah said again,
12:40He hath blinded their eyes, and he hardened their heart;
Lest they should see with their eyes, and perceive with their heart,
And should turn,
And I should heal them.
12:41These things said Isaiah, because he saw his glory; and he spake of him. 12:42Nevertheless even of the rulers many believed on him; but because of the Pharisees they did not confess it, lest they should be put out of the synagogue: 12:43for they loved the glory that is of men more than the glory that is of God. 12:44And Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me. 12:45And he that beholdeth me beholdeth him that sent me. 12:46I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me may not abide in the darkness. 12:47And if any man hear my sayings, and keep them not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world. 12:48He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my sayings, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I spake, the same shall judge him in the last day. 12:49For I spake not from myself; but the Father that sent me, he hath given me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak. 12:50And I know that his commandment is life eternal: the things therefore which I speak, even as the Father hath said unto me, so I speak.
13:1Now before the feast of the passover, Jesus knowing that his hour was come that he should depart out of this world unto his Father, having loved his own that were in the world, he loved them unto the end. 13:2And during supper, the devil having already put into the heart of Judas Iscariot, Simon's son, to betray him, 13:3Jesus, knowing that the Father had given all the things into his hands, and that he came forth from God, and goeth unto God, 13:4riseth from supper, and layeth aside his garments; and he took a towel, and girded himself. 13:5Then he poureth water into the basin, and began to wash the disciples' feet, and to wipe them with the towel wherewith he was girded. 13:6So he cometh to Simon Peter. He saith unto him, Lord, dost thou wash my feet? 13:7Jesus answered and said unto him, What I do thou knowest not now; but thou shalt understand hereafter. 13:8Peter saith unto him, Thou shalt never wash my feet. Jesus answered him, If I wash thee not, thou hast no part with me. 13:9Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, not my feet only, but also my hands and my head. 13:10Jesus saith to him, He that is bathed needeth not save to wash his feet, but is clean every whit: and ye are clean, but not all. 13:11For he knew him that should betray him; therefore said he, Ye are not all clean. 13:12So when he had washed their feet, and taken his garments, and sat down again, he said unto them, Know ye what I have done to you? 13:13Ye call me, Teacher, and, Lord: and ye say well; for so I am. 13:14If I then, the Lord and the Teacher, have washed your feet, ye also ought to wash one another's feet. 13:15For I have given you an example, that ye also should do as I have done to you. 13:16Verily, verily, I say unto you, a servant is not greater than his lord; neither one that is sent greater than he that sent him. 13:17If ye know these things, blessed are ye if ye do them. 13:18I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled: He that eateth my bread lifted up his heel against me. 13:19From henceforth I tell you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe that I am he. 13:20Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me. 13:21When Jesus had thus said, he was troubled in the spirit, and testified, and said, Verily, verily, I say unto you, that one of you shall betray me. 13:22The disciples looked one on another, doubting of whom he spake. 13:23There was at the table reclining in Jesus' bosom one of his disciples, whom Jesus loved. 13:24Simon Peter therefore beckoneth to him, and saith unto him, Tell us who it is of whom he speaketh. 13:25He leaning back, as he was, on Jesus' breast saith unto him, Lord, who is it? 13:26Jesus therefore answereth, He it is, for whom I shall dip the sop, and give it him. So when he had dipped the sop, he taketh and giveth it to Judas, the son of Simon Iscariot. 13:27And after the sop, then entered Satan into him. Jesus therefore saith unto him, What thou doest, do quickly. 13:28Now no man at the table knew for what intent he spake this unto him. 13:29For some thought, because Judas had the bag, that Jesus said unto him, Buy what things we have need of for the feast; or, that he should give something to the poor. 13:30He then having received the sop went out straightway: and it was night. 13:31When therefore he was gone out, Jesus saith, Now is the Son of man glorified, and God is glorified in him; 13:32and God shall glorify him in himself, and straightway shall he glorify him. 13:33Little children, yet a little while I am with you. Ye shall seek me: and as I said unto the Jews, Whither I go, ye cannot come; so now I say unto you. 13:34A new commandment I give unto you, that ye love one another; even as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 13:35By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another. 13:36Simon Peter saith unto him, Lord, whither goest thou? Jesus answered, Whither I go, thou canst not follow now; but thou shalt follow afterwards. 13:37Peter saith unto him, Lord, why cannot I follow thee even now? I will lay down my life for thee. 13:38Jesus answereth, Wilt thou lay down thy life for me? Verily, verily, I say unto thee, The cock shall not crow, till thou hast denied me thrice.
14:1Let not your heart be troubled: believe in God, believe also in me. 14:2In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; for I go to prepare a place for you. 14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I come again, and will receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also. 14:4And whither I go, ye know the way. 14:5Thomas saith unto him, Lord, we know not whither thou goest; how know we the way? 14:6Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, and the truth, and the life: no one cometh unto the Father, but by me. 14:7If ye had known me, ye would have known my Father also: from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him. 14:8Philip saith unto him, Lord, show us the Father, and it sufficeth us. 14:9Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and dost thou not know me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; how sayest thou, Show us the Father? 14:10Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I say unto you I speak not from myself: but the Father abiding in me doeth his works. 14:11Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. 14:12Verily, verily, I say unto you, he that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto the Father. 14:13And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. 14:14If ye shall ask anything in my name, that will I do. 14:15If ye love me, ye will keep my commandments. 14:16And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may be with you for ever, 14:17even the Spirit of truth: whom the world cannot receive; for it beholdeth him not, neither knoweth him: ye know him; for he abideth with you, and shall be in you. 14:18I will not leave you desolate: I come unto you. 14:19Yet a little while, and the world beholdeth me no more; but ye behold me: because I live, ye shall live also. 14:20In that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you. 14:21He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself unto him. 14:22Judas (not Iscariot) saith unto him, Lord, what is come to pass that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world? 14:23Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my word: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him. 14:24He that loveth me not keepeth not my words: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's who sent me. 14:25These things have I spoken unto you, while yet abiding with you. 14:26But the Comforter, even the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all that I said unto you. 14:27Peace I leave with you; my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be fearful. 14:28Ye heard how I said to you, I go away, and I come unto you. If ye loved me, ye would have rejoiced, because I go unto the Father: for the Father is greater than I. 14:29And now I have told you before it come to pass, that, when it is come to pass, ye may believe. 14:30I will no more speak much with you, for the prince of the world cometh: and he hath nothing in me; 14:31but that the world may know that I love the Father, and as the Father gave me commandment, even so I do. Arise, let us go hence.
15:1I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman. 15:2Every branch in me that beareth not fruit, he taketh it away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he cleanseth it, that it may bear more fruit. 15:3Already ye are clean because of the word which I have spoken unto you. 15:4Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; so neither can ye, except ye abide in me. 15:5I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit: for apart from me ye can do nothing. 15:6If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned. 15:7If ye abide in me, and my words abide in you, ask whatsoever ye will, and it shall be done unto you. 15:8Herein is my Father glorified, that ye bear much fruit; and so shall ye be my disciples. 15:9Even as the Father hath loved me, I also have loved you: abide ye in my love. 15:10If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love. 15:11These things have I spoken unto you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be made full. 15:12This is my commandment, that ye love one another, even as I have loved you. 15:13Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. 15:14Ye are my friends, if ye do the things which I command you. 15:15No longer do I call you servants; for the servant knoweth not what his lord doeth: but I have called you friends; for all things that I heard from my Father, I have made known unto you. 15:16Ye did not choose me, but I chose you, and appointed you, that ye should go and bear fruit, and that your fruit should abide: that whatsoever ye shall ask of the Father in my name, he may give it you. 15:17These things I command you, that ye may love one another. 15:18If the world hateth you, ye know that it hath hated me before it hated you. 15:19If ye were of the world, the world would love its own: but because ye are not of the world, but I chose you out of the world, therefore the world hateth you. 15:20Remember the word that I said unto you, A servant is not greater than his lord. If they persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they kept my word, they will keep yours also. 15:21But all these things will they do unto you for my name's sake, because they know not him that sent me. 15:22If I had not come and spoken unto them, they had not had sin: but now they have no excuse for their sin. 15:23He that hateth me hateth my Father also. 15:24If I had not done among them the works which none other did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father. 15:25But this cometh to pass, that the word may be fulfilled that is written in their law, They hated me without a cause. 15:26But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, even the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall bear witness of me: 15:27and ye also bear witness, because ye have been with me from the beginning.
16:1These things have I spoken unto you, that ye should not be caused to stumble. 16:2They shall put you out of the synagogues: yea, the hour cometh, that whosoever killeth you shall think that he offereth service unto God. 16:3And these things will they do, because they have not known the Father, nor me. 16:4But these things have I spoken unto you, that when their hour is come, ye may remember them, how that I told you. And these things I said not unto you from the beginning, because I was with you. 16:5But now I go unto him that sent me; and none of you asketh me, Whither goest thou? 16:6But because I have spoken these things unto you, sorrow hath filled your heart. 16:7Nevertheless I tell you the truth: It is expedient for you that I go away; for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I go, I will send him unto you. 16:8And he, when he is come, will convict the world in respect of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 16:9of sin, because they believe not on me; 16:10of righteousness, because I go to the Father, and ye behold me no more; 16:11of judgment, because the prince of this world hath been judged. 16:12I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now. 16:13Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he shall guide you into all the truth: for he shall not speak from himself; but what things soever he shall hear, these shall he speak: and he shall declare unto you the things that are to come. 16:14He shall glorify me: for he shall take of mine, and shall declare it unto you. 16:15All things whatsoever the Father hath are mine: therefore said I, that he taketh of mine, and shall declare it unto you. 16:16A little while, and ye behold me no more; and again a little while, and ye shall see me. 16:17Some of his disciples therefore said one to another, What is this that he saith unto us, A little while, and ye behold me not; and again a little while, and ye shall see me: and, Because I go to the Father? 16:18They said therefore, What is this that he saith, A little while? We know not what he saith. 16:19Jesus perceived that they were desirous to ask him, and he said unto them, Do ye inquire among yourselves concerning this, that I said, A little while, and ye behold me not, and again a little while, and ye shall see me? 16:20Verily, verily, I say unto you, that ye shall weep and lament, but the world shall rejoice: ye shall be sorrowful, but your sorrow shall be turned into joy. 16:21A woman when she is in travail hath sorrow, because her hour is come: but when she is delivered of the child, she remembereth no more the anguish, for the joy that a man is born into the world. 16:22And ye therefore now have sorrow: but I will see you again, and your heart shall rejoice, and your joy no one taketh away from you. 16:23And in that day ye shall ask me no question. Verily, verily, I say unto you, if ye shall ask anything of the Father, he will give it you in my name. 16:24Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be made full. 16:25These things have I spoken unto you in dark sayings: the hour cometh, when I shall no more speak unto you in dark sayings, but shall tell you plainly of the Father. 16:26In that day ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you; 16:27for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came forth from the Father. 16:28I came out from the Father, and am come into the world: again, I leave the world, and go unto the Father. 16:29His disciples say, Lo, now speakest thou plainly, and speakest no dark saying. 16:30Now know we that thou knowest all things, and needest not that any man should ask thee: by this we believe that thou camest forth from God. 16:31Jesus answered them, Do ye now believe? 16:32Behold, the hour cometh, yea, is come, that ye shall be scattered, every man to his own, and shall leave me alone: and yet I am not alone, because the Father is with me. 16:33These things have I spoken unto you, that in me ye may have peace. In the world ye have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.
17:1These things spake Jesus; and lifting up his eyes to heaven, he said, Father, the hour is come; glorify thy Son, that the son may glorify thee: 17:2even as thou gavest him authority over all flesh, that to all whom thou hast given him, he should give eternal life. 17:3And this is life eternal, that they should know thee the only true God, and him whom thou didst send, even Jesus Christ. 17:4I glorified thee on the earth, having accomplished the work which thou hast given me to do. 17:5And now, Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was. 17:6I manifested thy name unto the men whom thou gavest me out of the world: thine they were, and thou gavest them to me; and they have kept thy word. 17:7Now they know that all things whatsoever thou hast given me are from thee: 17:8for the words which thou gavest me I have given unto them; and they received them, and knew of a truth that I came forth from thee, and they believed that thou didst send me. 17:9I pray for them: I pray not for the world, but for those whom thou hast given me; for they are thine: 17:10and all things that are mine are thine, and thine are mine: and I am glorified in them. 17:11And I am no more in the world, and these are in the world, and I come to thee. Holy Father, keep them in thy name which thou hast given me, that they may be one, even as we are. 17:12While I was with them, I kept them in thy name which thou hast given me: and I guarded them, and not one of them perished, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled. 17:13But now I come to thee; and these things I speak in the world, that they may have my joy made full in themselves. 17:14I have given them thy word; and the world hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. 17:15I pray not that thou shouldest take them from the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil one. 17:16They are not of the world even as I am not of the world. 17:17Sanctify them in the truth: thy word is truth. 17:18As thou didst send me into the world, even so sent I them into the world. 17:19And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth. 17:20Neither for these only do I pray, but for them also that believe on me through their word; 17:21that they may all be one; even as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be in us: that the world may believe that thou didst send me. 17:22And the glory which thou hast given me I have given unto them; that they may be one, even as we are one; 17:23I in them, and thou in me, that they may be perfected into one; that the world may know that thou didst send me, and lovedst them, even as thou lovedst me. 17:24Father, I desire that they also whom thou hast given me be with me where I am, that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world. 17:25O righteous Father, the world knew thee not, but I knew thee; and these knew that thou didst send me; 17:26and I made known unto them thy name, and will make it known; that the love wherewith thou lovedst me may be in them, and I in them.
18:1When Jesus had spoken these words, he went forth with his disciples over the brook Kidron, where was a garden, into which he entered, himself and his disciples. 18:2Now Judas also, who betrayed him, knew the place: for Jesus oft-times resorted thither with his disciples. 18:3Judas then, having received the band of soldiers, and officers from the chief priests and the Pharisees, cometh thither with lanterns and torches and weapons. 18:4Jesus therefore, knowing all the things that were coming upon him, went forth, and saith unto them, Whom seek ye? 18:5They answered him, Jesus of Nazareth. Jesus saith unto them, I am he. And Judas also, who betrayed him, was standing with them. 18:6When therefore he said unto them, I am he, they went backward, and fell to the ground. 18:7Again therefore he asked them, Whom seek ye? And they said, Jesus of Nazareth. 18:8Jesus answered, I told you that I am he; if therefore ye seek me, let these go their way: 18:9that the word might be fulfilled which he spake, Of those whom thou hast given me I lost not one. 18:10Simon Peter therefore having a sword drew it, and struck the high priest's servant, and cut off his right ear. Now the servant's name was Malchus. 18:11Jesus therefore said unto Peter, Put up the sword into the sheath: the cup which the Father hath given me, shall I not drink it? 18:12So the band and the chief captain, and the officers of the Jews, seized Jesus and bound him, 18:13and led him to Annas first; for he was father in law to Caiaphas, who was high priest that year. 18:14Now Caiaphas was he that gave counsel to the Jews, that it was expedient that one man should die for the people. 18:15And Simon Peter followed Jesus, and so did another disciple. Now that disciple was known unto the high priest, and entered in with Jesus into the court of the high priest; 18:16but Peter was standing at the door without. So the other disciple, who was known unto the high priest, went out and spake unto her that kept the door, and brought in Peter. 18:17The maid therefore that kept the door saith unto Peter, Art thou also one of this man's disciples? He saith, I am not. 18:18Now the servants and the officers were standing there, having made a fire of coals; for it was cold; and they were warming themselves: and Peter also was with them, standing and warming himself. 18:19The high priest therefore asked Jesus of his disciples, and of his teaching. 18:20Jesus answered him, I have spoken openly to the world; I ever taught in synagogues, and in the temple, where all the Jews come together; and in secret spake I nothing. 18:21Why askest thou me? Ask them that have heard me, what I spake unto them: behold, these know the things which I said. 18:22And when he had said this, one of the officers standing by struck Jesus with his hand, saying, Answerest thou the high priest so? 18:23Jesus answered him, If I have spoken evil, bear witness of the evil: but if well, why smitest thou me? 18:24Annas therefore sent him bound unto Caiaphas the high priest. 18:25Now Simon Peter was standing and warming himself. They said therefore unto him, Art thou also one of his disciples? He denied, and said, I am not. 18:26One of the servants of the high priest, being a kinsman of him whose ear Peter cut off, saith, Did not I see thee in the garden with him? 18:27Peter therefore denied again: and straightway the cock crew. 18:28They lead Jesus therefore from Caiaphas into the Praetorium: and it was early; and they themselves entered not into the Praetorium, that they might not be defiled, but might eat the passover. 18:29Pilate therefore went out unto them, and saith, What accusation bring ye against this man? 18:30They answered and said unto him, If this man were not an evildoer, we should not have delivered him up unto thee. 18:31Pilate therefore said unto them, Take him yourselves, and judge him according to your law. The Jews said unto him, It is not lawful for us to put any man to death: 18:32that the word of Jesus might be fulfilled, which he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should die. 18:33Pilate therefore entered again into the Praetorium, and called Jesus, and said unto him, Art thou the King of the Jews? 18:34Jesus answered, Sayest thou this of thyself, or did others tell it thee concerning me? 18:35Pilate answered, Am I a Jew? Thine own nation and the chief priests delivered thee unto me: what hast thou done? 18:36Jesus answered, My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence. 18:37Pilate therefore said unto him, Art thou a king then? Jesus answered, Thou sayest that I am a king. To this end have I been born, and to this end am I come into the world, that I should bear witness unto the truth. Every one that is of the truth heareth my voice. 18:38Pilate saith unto him, What is truth? And when he had said this, he went out again unto the Jews, and saith unto them, I find no crime in him. 18:39But ye have a custom, that I should release unto you one at the passover: will ye therefore that I release unto you the King of the Jews? 18:40They cried out therefore again, saying, Not this man, but Barabbas. Now Barabbas was a robber.)
19:1Then Pilate therefore took Jesus, and scourged him. 19:2And the soldiers platted a crown of thorns, and put it on his head, and arrayed him in a purple garment; 19:3and they came unto him, and said, Hail, King of the Jews! and they struck him with their hands. 19:4And Pilate went out again, and saith unto them, Behold, I bring him out to you, that ye may know that I find no crime in him. 19:5Jesus therefore came out, wearing the crown of thorns and the purple garment. And Pilate saith unto them, Behold, the man! 19:6When therefore the chief priests and the officers saw him, they cried out, saying, Crucify him, crucify him! Pilate saith unto them, Take him yourselves, and crucify him: for I find no crime in him. 19:7The Jews answered him, We have a law, and by that law he ought to die, because he made himself the Son of God. 19:8When Pilate therefore heard this saying, he was the more afraid; 19:9and he entered into the Praetorium again, and saith unto Jesus, Whence art thou? But Jesus gave him no answer. 19:10Pilate therefore saith unto him, Speakest thou not unto me? Knowest thou not that I have power to release thee, and have power to crucify thee? 19:11Jesus answered him, Thou wouldest have no power against me, except it were given thee from above: therefore he that delivered me unto thee hath greater sin. 19:12Upon this Pilate sought to release him: but the Jews cried out, saying, If thou release this man, thou art not Caesar's friend: every one that maketh himself a king speaketh against Caesar. 19:13When Pilate therefore heard these words, he brought Jesus out, and sat down on the judgment-seat at a place called The Pavement, but in Hebrew, Gabbatha. 19:14Now it was the Preparation of the passover: it was about the sixth hour. And he saith unto the Jews, Behold, your King! 19:15They therefore cried out, Away with him, away with him, crucify him! Pilate saith unto them, Shall I crucify your King? The chief priests answered, We have no king but Caesar. 19:16Then therefore he delivered him unto them to be crucified. 19:17They took Jesus therefore: and he went out, bearing the cross for himself, unto the place called The place of a skull, which is called in Hebrew, Golgotha: 19:18where they crucified him, and with him two others, on either side one, and Jesus in the midst. 19:19And Pilate wrote a title also, and put it on the cross. And there was written, JESUS OF NAZARETH, THE KING OF THE JEWS. 19:20This title therefore read many of the Jews, for the place where Jesus was crucified was nigh to the city; and it was written in Hebrew, and in Latin, and in Greek. 19:21The chief priests of the Jews therefore said to Pilate, Write not, The King of the Jews; but that he said, I am King of the Jews. 19:22Pilate answered, What I have written I have written. 19:23The soldiers therefore, when they had crucified Jesus, took his garments and made four parts, to every soldier a part; and also the coat: now the coat was without seam, woven from the top throughout. 19:24They said therefore one to another, Let us not rend it, but cast lots for it, whose it shall be: that the scripture might be fulfilled, which saith,
They parted my garments among them,
And upon my vesture did they cast lots.
19:25These things therefore the soldiers did. But there were standing by the cross of Jesus his mother, and his mother's sister, Mary the wife of Clopas, and Mary Magdalene. 19:26When Jesus therefore saw his mother, and the disciple standing by whom he loved, he saith unto his mother, Woman, behold thy son! 19:27Then saith he to the disciple, Behold, thy mother! And from that hour the disciple took her unto his own home. 19:28After this Jesus, knowing that all things are now finished, that the scripture might be accomplished, saith, I thirst. 19:29There was set there a vessel full of vinegar: so they put a sponge full of the vinegar upon hyssop, and brought it to his mouth. 19:30When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up his spirit. 19:31The Jews therefore, because it was the Preparation, that the bodies should not remain on the cross upon the sabbath (for the day of that sabbath was a high day), asked of Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away. 19:32The soldiers therefore came, and brake the legs of the first, and of the other that was crucified with him: 19:33but when they came to Jesus, and saw that he was dead already, they brake not his legs: 19:34howbeit one of the soldiers with a spear pierced his side, and straightway there came out blood and water. 19:35And he that hath seen hath borne witness, and his witness is true: and he knoweth that he saith true, that ye also may believe. 19:36For these things came to pass, that the scripture might be fulfilled, A bone of him shall not be broken. 19:37And again another scripture saith, They shall look on him whom they pierced. 19:38And after these things Joseph of Arimathaea, being a disciple of Jesus, but secretly for fear of the Jews, asked of Pilate that he might take away the body of Jesus: and Pilate gave him leave. He came therefore, and took away his body. 19:39And there came also Nicodemus, he who at the first came to him by night, bringing a mixture of myrrh and aloes, about a hundred pounds. 19:40So they took the body of Jesus, and bound it in linen cloths with the spices, as the custom of the Jews is to bury. 19:41Now in the place where he was crucified there was a garden; and in the garden a new tomb wherein was never man yet laid. 19:42There then because of the Jews' Preparation (for the tomb was nigh at hand) they laid Jesus.
20:1Now on the first day of the week cometh Mary Magdalene early, while it was yet dark, unto the tomb, and seeth the stone taken away from the tomb. 20:2She runneth therefore, and cometh to Simon Peter, and to the other disciple whom Jesus loved, and saith unto them, They have taken away the Lord out of the tomb, and we know not where they have laid him. 20:3Peter therefore went forth, and the other disciple, and they went toward the tomb. 20:4And they ran both together: and the other disciple outran Peter, and came first to the tomb; 20:5and stooping and looking in, he seeth the linen cloths lying; yet entered he not in. 20:6Simon Peter therefore also cometh, following him, and entered into the tomb; and he beholdeth the linen cloths lying, 20:7and the napkin, that was upon his head, not lying with the linen cloths, but rolled up in a place by itself. 20:8Then entered in therefore the other disciple also, who came first to the tomb, and he saw, and believed. 20:9For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise from the dead. 20:10So the disciples went away again unto their own home. 20:11But Mary was standing without at the tomb weeping: so, as she wept, she stooped and looked into the tomb; 20:12and she beholdeth two angels in white sitting, one at the head, and one at the feet, where the body of Jesus had lain. 20:13And they say unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? She saith unto them, Because they have taken away my Lord, and I know not where they have laid him. 20:14When she had thus said, she turned herself back, and beholdeth Jesus standing, and knew not that it was Jesus. 20:15Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou hast borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away. 20:16Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turneth herself, and saith unto him in Hebrew, Rabboni; which is to say, Teacher. 20:17Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended unto the Father: but go unto my brethren, and say to them, I ascend unto my Father and your Father, and my God and your God. 20:18Mary Magdalene cometh and telleth the disciples, I have seen the Lord; and that he had said these things unto her. 20:19When therefore it was evening, on that day, the first day of the week, and when the doors were shut where the disciples were, for fear of the Jews, Jesus came and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. 20:20And when he had said this, he showed unto them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord. 20:21Jesus therefore said to them again, Peace be unto you: as the Father hath sent me, even so send I you. 20:22And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Spirit: 20:23whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained. 20:24But Thomas, one of the twelve, called Didymus, was not with them when Jesus came. 20:25The other disciples therefore said unto him, We have seen the Lord. But he said unto them, Except I shall see in his hands the print of the nails, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe. 20:26And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them. Jesus cometh, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you. 20:27Then saith he to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and see my hands; and reach hither thy hand, and put it into my side: and be not faithless, but believing. 20:28Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God. 20:29Jesus saith unto him, Because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. 20:30Many other signs therefore did Jesus in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book: 20:31but these are written, that ye may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God; and that believing ye may have life in his name.
21:1After these things Jesus manifested himself again to the disciples at the sea of Tiberias; and he manifested himself on this wise. 21:2There was together Simon Peter, and Thomas called Didymus, and Nathanael of Cana in Galilee, and the sons of Zebedee, and two other of his disciples. 21:3Simon Peter saith unto them, I go a fishing. They say unto him, We also come with thee. They went forth, and entered into the boat; and that night they took nothing. 21:4But when day was now breaking, Jesus stood on the beach: yet the disciples knew not that it was Jesus. 21:5Jesus therefore saith unto them, Children, have ye aught to eat? They answered him, No. 21:6And he said unto them, Cast the net on the right side of the boat, and ye shall find. They cast therefore, and now they were not able to draw it for the multitude of fishes. 21:7That disciple therefore whom Jesus loved saith unto Peter, It is the Lord. So when Simon Peter heard that it was the Lord, he girt his coat about him (for he was naked), and cast himself into the sea. 21:8But the other disciples came in the little boat (for they were not far from the land, but about two hundred cubits off), dragging the net full of fishes. 21:9So when they got out upon the land, they see a fire of coals there, and fish laid thereon, and bread. 21:10Jesus saith unto them, Bring of the fish which ye have now taken. 21:11Simon Peter therefore went up, and drew the net to land, full of great fishes, a hundred and fifty and three: and for all there were so many, the net was not rent. 21:12Jesus saith unto them, Come and break your fast. And none of the disciples durst inquire of him, Who art thou? knowing that it was the Lord. 21:13Jesus cometh, and taketh the bread, and giveth them, and the fish likewise. 21:14This is now the third time that Jesus was manifested to the disciples, after that he was risen from the dead. 21:15So when they had broken their fast, Jesus saith to Simon Peter, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me more than these? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Feed my lambs. 21:16He saith to him again a second time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? He saith unto him, Yea, Lord; thou knowest that I love thee. He saith unto him, Tend my sheep. 21:17He saith unto him the third time, Simon, son of John, lovest thou me? Peter was grieved because he said unto him the third time, Lovest thou me? And he said unto him, Lord, thou knowest all things; thou knowest that I love thee. Jesus saith unto him, Feed my sheep. 21:18Verily, verily, I say unto thee, When thou wast young, thou girdedst thyself, and walkedst whither thou wouldest: but when thou shalt be old, thou shalt stretch forth thy hands, and another shall gird thee, and carry thee whither thou wouldest not. 21:19Now this he spake, signifying by what manner of death he should glorify God. And when he had spoken this, he saith unto him, Follow me. 21:20Peter, turning about, seeth the disciple whom Jesus loved following; who also leaned back on his breast at the supper, and said, Lord, who is he that betrayeth thee? 21:21Peter therefore seeing him saith to Jesus, Lord, and what shall this man do? 21:22Jesus saith unto him, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? Follow thou me. 21:23This saying therefore went forth among the brethren, that that disciple should not die: yet Jesus said not unto him, that he should not die; but, If I will that he tarry till I come, what is that to thee? 21:24This is the disciple that beareth witness of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his witness is true. 21:25And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself would not contain the books that should be written.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 4:27 PM
Tom, no I will not give my name and address. Haven't you noticed some of the atheists posting here? My life would be in serious danger.
Twist in the wind atheists. Yes YOU killed 100 MILLION people in the last century alone. Nothing you say will convince me otherwise because it is true. I happen to believe in truth, unlike you who think nothing is sacred.
You don't believe in the good, true, or beautiful-you can't. Such things require objective goodness, truth, and beauty. You deny that and admit it. Atheism is only hate and ugliness-a boot in the face-forever. That is why you have lost. Whether Julian said them or not the words are true, "Galilean, you have conquered."
PS: Spammer, I understand your anger, but please stop.
Posted by: D. Edward Farrar | July 24, 2008 4:28 PM
Gee, there are even submissions from Pope John Paul II (who, last time I looked, was dead).
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 4:28 PM
Bill Donohue: The University must now take action and apply the appropriate sanction. We are contacting the president, Board of Regents and the Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action Office at the school, as well as Minnesota's governor and both houses of the state legislature; the Catholic community in Minnesota is also being contacted. Moreover, we are also contacting Muslim groups nationwide.
I noticed Donohue is not contacting Richard Dawkins. Why not? PZ abused his book.
I bet the American Muslims will think Donohue is nuts, and will ignore the whole thing.
We already know what the Catholics will do. They'll prove they're more like terrorists than any Muslim. The out of control Catholic spam on this thread is a good example of their fake morality.
Posted by: JM Inc. | July 24, 2008 4:28 PM
Bravo, PZ Myers! Holy shit (crackers), I was expecting just a little picture or two, plus a description of a cracker impaled by a nail and buried under a rock next to a travelling garden gnome (let's see you get out of that tomb, Jesus!). Well said, well done, well for it, and all that nonsense! I admit to having been a bit uncomfortable with this whole affair, mostly because I felt you weren't getting the point across emphatically enough, but this post takes the cake! Of course, I doubt you'll reach any of the died-in-the-wool believers, but it's worth having done just to have gotten that message out. Thanks for making this whole affair worth while.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:28 PM
Oh great, another masturbator has joined the spam dance. Where's PZ anyway? Or is there another moderator on this website?
Posted by: WayBeyondSoccerMom | July 24, 2008 4:29 PM
Yay, PZ!
Posted by: Cthulhu | July 24, 2008 4:29 PM
Ban these a$$hats trying to crash the server with god garbage.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 4:29 PM
Holy heck, PZ, you really did it! You certainly have guts.
And, thanks for the history lesson. Funny how all that NEVER came up in my Catholic school upbringing. I shudder to think of it all.
Was the coffee good at least? Hmmm... caffeinated christ...
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 4:29 PM
Yeah, in the same way that an exhausted parent shuts up his child's constant "why"s with a firm "because!" If you'd like, science could do the same.
Yeah, good thing the various churches have all been in universal, unchanging agreement for the last few millennia. Fucking Galileo--all he did was reiterate what the church had been saying all along: We've always been at war with Eastasia.
I'll take the humility of science over the humility of religion any day.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 4:29 PM
Thank you John spambot, you have wonderfully demonstrated how religious people cannot refrain from the emotional raping of others. You feel you have the right to go to someone else's blog and copy paste massive amounts of religious drivel so as to interrupt conversation.
People like you are the reason I feel that the Abrahamic religions teach followers to rape and violate. You have no comprehension of personal boundaries. You feel you are superior and have the right to emotionally rape and violate the rest of us.
You are frustrated by the inability to do bodily harm to PZ, so instead you abuse in any way you can. What would your jebuscracker do? Would his crumbliness approve of your behavior?
Come to think of it, he probably would, this kind of abusive behavior is exactly what your religion teaches you to do.
Posted by: WayBeyondSoccerMom | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
Yay, PZ!
(BTW, my right pointer finger is tired, after clicking past all those long winded nastygrams to you.)
Posted by: Chris Swanson | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
Books may just be paper, and non-sacred, but I do wince at seeing them at all disfigured and rather wish you would've come up with a different way doing that. Perhaps a poster of Darwin and a picture of that big stone block in Mecca that I can't ever remember how to correctly spell the name of?
Ah, well. C'est la vie, and shame to the Catholics for getting enraged over this when there is so much else in the world that needs to be worked on.
Posted by: AJ Milne | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
The spambot's a nice illustration of the thinking on this subject from certain parties from the very beginning, tho', innit? So very appropriate... And so of a piece with the same narrative, everywhere this thinking rears its ugly head.
They don't want to hear something? They find it offensive? Well, then, that settles it. No one should be allowed to say it. Verboten. End of story. They get to say. Their protestations of outrage are taken to trump all other considerations. Our beliefs will not be mocked. Because we will not let you mock them. Because we can't take it. Because it threatens us.
So, thwarted in this attempt, they'll still attempt to suppress that expression of ridicule by whatever means necessary. And since the death threats failed, the endless kvetching failed, the endless, circular, repeatitive attempts at misdirection, changing the subject, burying the whole thing in pseudolegalistic bafflegab, shouting 'bigot' reflexively and repeatedly all failed, what's next up?
Why, massive quantities of spam, natch.
It's a priceless illustration. Couldn't have drawn it better myself.
Posted by: Richard Harris | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
"Just the mere thought of desecrating the Holy Eucharist is enough to get one into hell."
Well, I'm thinking about desecrating it, like spitting on it, pissing on it, shitting on it, or feeding it to the dog. He'd still eat it after that treatment, too.
Oh feck, now I'm gonna go to hell, bwahahaha. Well, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend an eternity in feckin' heaven with those crazy Christians. Feckin' religious edjits.
Posted by: kestrien | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
The Donohue press release has landed!
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1465
Get ready for more hate mail, PZ.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | July 24, 2008 4:30 PM
Didn't you guys know that if you repeat nonsense enough, it becomes more credible over time... if anything the RC church is an example of that. What we're observing here is the slow accumulation of micro-credibility into macro-credibility over time.
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 4:31 PM
DELETE THE SPAM.
Posted by: GeoffI | July 24, 2008 4:31 PM
The person who is spamming this forum is demonstrably an idiot and a sore loser too.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:31 PM
@Fr. J: Yea, like they're gonna listen to you. They're busy having an orgasm, isn't it evident?
But hey, if you really want them to stop, you could pray to Jesus. He would break their computers. But then again, you would've tried that on PZ's arms first.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:32 PM
"The out of control Catholic spam on this thread is a good example of their fake morality."
LOL, desecration = super cool, spam = immoral, u = moron.
Tried to keep that simple for you sporty.
Posted by: delosgatos | July 24, 2008 4:32 PM
To skip the spam, just note the post number and search for the subsequent number. And firefox opens the find in a bar at the bottom and leaves it up - makes it quite quick.
Papa J - or is it Fryer J? - You don't believe in the good, true, or beautiful-you can't. Such things require objective goodness, truth, and beauty.
Lol. Weak.
Posted by: Dahan | July 24, 2008 4:33 PM
At 693,
"Interesting. Apparently you view Richard Dawkins' book as a holy text?"
No shit for brains, that's his point, he pointed it out very clearly. THERE ARE NO HOLY THINGS!!! Dawkin's book isn't holy, neither is the Koran, and neither's the cracker. That's why he can destroy them without feeling concerned in any way. How can you be so willfully obtuse?
He didn't say "I'm gonna destroy some holy things." for fuck's sake.
Posted by: Jay | July 24, 2008 4:33 PM
Somebody sure does love their "cut and paste".
So much wasted effort. So little thinking.
Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist | July 24, 2008 4:33 PM
"Bone pastor, panis vere,
Iesu, nostri miserere..."
From the encyclical posted by Hussien Obama Nut-job to screw-up the thread.
Translation: "Priest's boner pains rear, increases our misery."
My Latin is pretty weak. Sorry.
Posted by: Laurie Mann | July 24, 2008 4:34 PM
I'm so glad I'm an atheist!
PZ, you rock!
My husband, raised a Catholic, used to pretend Necco wafers were the host and would "play mass" with them. Guess he'll "burn in hell" too.
Can't say we lose any sleep over that.
Posted by: Thomas R. Holtz, Jr. | July 24, 2008 4:34 PM
@Fr.J,
"no I will not give my name and address."
I never asked for an address.
So I call you coward or liar. Either you are a priest who fails to live up to his calling and publically and OPENLY proclaim his faith before the people, or you are a priest wannabe who seeks to pretend he has taken up that mantle without undergoing the long process of the seminary.
Having known a number of priests in my time, I suspect you are in fact the latter.
So take a page from spammer-boy, and take up a new handle.
Posted by: Bas | July 24, 2008 4:34 PM
Quick! Somebody update the wikipedia entry! :)
Posted by: Must Conform | July 24, 2008 4:34 PM
Must conform to liberal academia.
Must conform to liberal academia.
Must conform to liberal academia.
Fight the Power.
The power is academic liberal orthodoxy
Posted by: Aaron | July 24, 2008 4:34 PM
@Fr. J:
EPIC FAIL.
http://www.alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/photogallery.html
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Spamming comment threads makes the baby Jesus cry.
Posted by: D. Edward Farrar | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Fr. J - There are no atheists out there trying to kill you for being silly. And a cracker is still just a cracker, even if you worship it.
Posted by: Zaphod | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Bill Donohue said:
> 'Expressions of disrespectful bias, hate, harassment or
> hostility against an individual, group or their property
> because of the individual or group's actual or perceived
> race, color, creed, religion...can be forms of
> discrimination. Expressions vary, and can be in the form
> of language, words, signs, symbols, threats, or actions
> that could potentially cause alarm, anger, fear, or
> resentment in others...even when presented as a joke.'
Disrespecting a cracker endowed with magical properties by magical mumbo jumbo != disrespecting an individual, group or their property.
Posted by: Jon | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Can someone please post the WHOLE Bible instead of small random excerpts?
Greatly appreciated.
Posted by: Ticktockman | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Ya know, I think we can have a rapprochement here. I figure if PZ can demonstrate that he defiled an innocent, under-aged cracker then hid the evidence, Catholics like Fr.J won't have such a problem with it. Everyone's a winner!
-TTm
Posted by: tsg | July 24, 2008 4:35 PM
Bigger Pile of Bodies argument. Nothing to see here.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 4:36 PM
"Oh feck, now I'm gonna go to hell, bwahahaha. Well, I sure as hell wouldn't want to spend an eternity in feckin' heaven with those crazy Christians. Feckin' religious edjits."
I secured my ticket when I took the blasphemy challenge a couple of years ago.
Window seat please!
Posted by: Patricia | July 24, 2008 4:36 PM
Somebody please grab John & bend him over, I've got a pineapple!
Posted by: Ale | July 24, 2008 4:37 PM
Awww...
The religiobots are raiding us... How cute.
If this is the extent of the influence of god on Earth, Pascal's wager is even more absurd than I thought. Anyway, godbotters and their infantile copypasta will only succeed in boring us today, in this particular thread. But the point has been made, the idea will endure. And no amount of idiotic comment pestering will change that.
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 4:38 PM
Pat,
As a Christian, you no doubt have a warped sense of morality.
For most of us atheists, morality is a question of suffering versus happiness, not what custom dictates.
No one suffered physical pain as a result of PZ's desecration. Whatever sort of emotional stress they might have suffered is absolutely baseless, and that's the whole point of this exercise--to point out how ridiculous this particular belief is.
Spamming on the other hand is actively disrupting communication, and if you are doing it, you can kiss my ass.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:38 PM
http://www.alamoministries.com/content/english/Antichrist/nazigallery/13nunspavelic.jpg
Holy smokes how can these ladies take themselves seriously? It's too much even for an Halloween costume!
Posted by: El Herring | July 24, 2008 4:38 PM
To hell with this, I'm not reading this page until the spam vomit has been cleaned up.
I sincerely hope that July 24 2008 will be remembered as the day organised religion was finally exposed for scam it really is, and the colossal fraud it has imposed on the entire human race for the last 2000 years (or more).
Well, I can dream, can't I?
Posted by: Parsnip Money | July 24, 2008 4:39 PM
Fr.J:
the statement 'nothing is sacred' does not mean that we do not believe in truth. In fact, it implies the opposite: the idea of a commonplace object being 'sacred' is an insult to the concept of truth in that it is a spurious claim that cannot be supported by evidence. What you call 'truth,' I call an unsubstantiated yet successful memeplex.
The word 'sacred' has nothing to do with the word 'truth' if you actually look the word up. 'Sacred' relates exclusively to religious objects and ideas, and 'truth' was around way before any religion was.
P.S. "Nothing you say will convince me otherwise because it is true."
if you really believe that truth is sacred, then you should not only be careful about where you get your truths from, but also be open to the idea that what you believe to be true may in fact not be. Or have you never changed your mind about anything before in your life?
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 24, 2008 4:39 PM
Dr. Myers?
You are a brilliant man. Thank you for writing these things which must be told. Thank you for reminding those who wish to do us all great harm of their history of constant, unmitigated hatred toward their fellow human beings in the name of their small, petty faith.
I hope just one believer takes to heart your well-chosen words and learns that, even though religion itself is neither good nor bad, it's what you do with that faith that will determine whether you are an evil human being or a good person.
I for one am very glad you showed this cracker the respect it truly deserves in the world of the rational adult.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:39 PM
"Spamming on the other hand is actively disrupting communication, and if you are doing it, you can kiss my ass. "
Awe gee shucks. Here I thought we were going to be pals. Go John go!
Posted by: Paul D | July 24, 2008 4:40 PM
In other news, Uncircumcised Heart would make a great band name.
Posted by: Cardinal Shrew | July 24, 2008 4:41 PM
The cut and paste patsies, poor impotent fools that have not the mind to fight their own fights or the courage to defend the points they post. Cowards, cutting and pasting from sock puppet personas they conjure, to annoy and infuriate us. They speak of high and mighty virtue and yet display none of it themselves. They are hypocrites and cowards.
When people post opinions I don't agree with them I can at least respect them for standing toe to toe and arguing with what they have. The childish impotent fools that do nothing but cut and paste are no better than the spoiled child that that takes his ball and goes home when he doesn't win.
I pity them.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 4:42 PM
FYI: The easiest way to skip the denial-of-service spam is to search for the text at the end. I find "Given in Rome" works so far.
In Firefox or IE, use Control-F to bring up the search dialog.
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 4:42 PM
Pat,
You have no arguments, you can only cover your ears and scream. Pathetic.
Posted by: Zaphod | July 24, 2008 4:42 PM
PaulD said:
> In other news, Uncircumcised Heart would make a great
> band name.
LOL!
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 4:42 PM
Unsurprisingly, Padre J demonstrates that he has not learned one thing about atheists or atheism in all this time. His heart has been hardened. Sad, really. May Jesus or some other associated deity show him the way.
Posted by: Janus | July 24, 2008 4:43 PM
Spamming a thread does actual harm (admittedly, very little harm, but still): It disturbs the ordinary flow of a discussion. If you want to compare it to something, compare it to singing a rock song really loudly during a Catholic ceremony.
'Desecrating' a holy cracker does no harm whatsoever. There are millions of holy crackers. They're mass-produced and mass-blessed. They're handed out for free. PZ doing anything he likes to a cracker in the privacy of his home doesn't disturb anyone. The only thing it hurts is your feelings. Well, that's too bad, but your feelings are your problem, not PZ's, especially since the source of your feelings is a baseless superstition.
Posted by: Morse | July 24, 2008 4:43 PM
Go John go!
Yes John, go. Because your posts will be permanent. There is no possible way PZ will be able to delete all your posts and then ban your IP address from posting on his site. That is far beyond the power of mere mortal men.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 4:43 PM
I said earlier: The out of control Catholic spam on this thread is a good example of their fake morality.
Pat, if you need more examples of the immorality of Catholics, read what PZ said at the top of this thread. With that kind of bloody history, Catholics would throw out their religion if they had any moral values at all.
Posted by: rb | July 24, 2008 4:43 PM
From Catholic League site:
Donohue may have a slight point here, although only if a Catholic student or colleague felt that PZ was directing actions at them (I think).
Posted by: Mr. C | July 24, 2008 4:44 PM
For all of you wondering if the host is consecrated or not, what does it matter? Your interest in that particular question only suggests one of two things 1)you are actually entertaining the possiblity that it is something more than a cracker or 2)you are hoping it is consecrated because you know that makes a difference to Catholics and it will piss them off all that much more, in which case you're just as stupid and childish as PZ for starting this in the first place, and just as stupid and offensive as the individuals who are making threats towards PZ. Grow up, people!
Posted by: Dave UH | July 24, 2008 4:44 PM
I'm going to make a little video. Thanks for a great read PZ
Posted by: King Aardvark | July 24, 2008 4:44 PM
Beautifully written. In my discussions with other atheist bloggers, I became worried that the anger you would incite would trump any point you were making, but you desecrated that wafer in the best possible way. Kudos.
Btw, that is an artistic photo there. Can you post a higher resolution picture so I can use it as my wallpaper?
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 4:44 PM
Tom, I hesitate to imagine the kind of priests you know. I wonder if they know you? Do they know that you are all for desecrating the Eucharist? Do they know that you don't seem to mind others calling all priests pedophiles? Are you shocked that I object to such things? Is that why you doubt my credentials? I have openly proclaimed the faith, which really seems to have annoyed you. Utterly ludicrous.
I doubt you. I think you are someone who would do me harm and is just trying to bait me into giving out personal information where hundreds can see it. I would be harassed and perhaps endangered.
It won't work. I really don't care what you think. Would I post here if I cared what atheists thought of me? As far as I know you are a nut who would shoot me. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Posted by: Jonathan | July 24, 2008 4:45 PM
I'm loving all the accusations that PZ took a non-consecrated cracker to throw in the trash. What possible motivation would he have for faking this? It's not like it's hard to get your hands on a Jesus cracker, it's not like he fears the fiery pits of hell, it's not like he cares whether the cracker is "Jesus" or not "Jesus".
I'm going to have to agree with the other people who chimed in. Figure out a way to test if a wafer is consecrated. It's true that we only have his word, but why should we not believe him?
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:46 PM
Yes Pat, go john go for he and you are proving that you are afraid to have a conversation and would rather destroy than actually talk. By the way, it's lame and it does not prove any point. It just makes you a lousy spammer. It's like a child plugging its ears going "LALALALA I'M NOT LISTENING I'M NOT LISTENING."
You have proven you have no arguments left, you have proven that you have no life. You have proven that you are a silly devout. In fact, you should be outside helping the poor instead of wasting your time copy pasting here. I'm sure Jesus is sad for you right now.
Are you thinking that spamming the internet will get you a free ticket to Heaven? It's not how it works.
PS: How much money you have? Did you give everything you have to the poor yet, like you should?
Posted by: El Herring | July 24, 2008 4:46 PM
All hail the great god Copyandpaste!
Seriously, is that the best you can do? 2000 years of suffocating oppression and violence has now been reduced to spamming weblogs. I bet you long for the good old days when you could burn us evile herry ticks at the stake and dance on our graves singing hally loo ya.
Religion. What good has it ever done anyone?
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 4:46 PM
Damn!
Just got the memo back from legal-
Seems like we can't use CHRISTESSENCE Table Wafers.
Bill Donohue holds the trademark on Christ - Who knew?
Undaunted, we shall continue with-
CristESSENCE Table Wafers - "It's good for the soul!"
now available in fun colors!
Pure White,
Papal Purple, and
Shoes of the Fisherman Red
...
..
.
Posted by: Brian D | July 24, 2008 4:47 PM
To everyone actually following the discussion here:
GreaseMonkey is an excellent addition to Firefox, and there's a simple killfile script available for it that works on ScienceBlogs. I've just searched for text near the end of the BibleBot's ejaculations, and clicked "kill" every time I see it -- and the page is noticably shorter as a result, as it often gets more than one repost in just one click.
Posted by: J.H. Christy | July 24, 2008 4:47 PM
Man! Copy and pasting shit from the pope and the bible has really convinced me that I, a fornicating, lying, blaspheming atheist, am truly truly wrong!
WOE IS OUR ATHEISTIC REASOING AND RHETORIC! Who could have forseen the power of the ctrl+c/ctrl+v touch of death combo!
Oh well, seeing as how I've converted to catholism now, guess I'll go rape me some little boys.
Posted by: Stephen Ockham | July 24, 2008 4:47 PM
Right on PZ, glad to see it done.
Now to kick back and watch the religious nuts humilate themselves in return.
Cost of stunt: negligible
Results: Priceless
Posted by: Bunk | July 24, 2008 4:48 PM
At #727
Oh yeah?!
Bravo PZ. Looks like you're going to have to take out some more Catholic trash with the book paster.
Posted by: The Adamant Atheist | July 24, 2008 4:48 PM
"I have openly proclaimed the faith"
And you deserve our ridicule for it.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 4:48 PM
Fr J,
Go bugger an alterboy.
Posted by: SR | July 24, 2008 4:48 PM
Well, kudos on keeping to your word.
But damn, hire a bodyguard /now/. Preferably a non-religious one. Or several. I'm not kidding.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:49 PM
"You have no arguments, you can only cover your ears and scream."
LOL, now you've gone and hurt my feelings. Not. Get over yourself dude. I'm just enjoying the sideshow.
Dance!
Posted by: Sastra | July 24, 2008 4:49 PM
Well said, PZ. And using The God Delusion is a better choice than The Origin of Species, since it continues to keeps the whole evolution issue out of it. This issue has nothing to do with creationism (though some of the Catholic commenters seem to be confused).
Rayven Alandria #734 wrote:
Ah, no, Rayven. Comparing some childish spam attempts to "emotional rape and violation" is the sort of overblown rhetoric and failure to make distinctions which started this whole mess in the first place.
Sooner or later, PZ will remove and delete these unnecessary posts on the history of the Eucharist. I assume it's a simplistic attempt to teach us what it feels like to have "personal boundaries" crossed, and there's not any intention to educate (I'm sure as heck not reading that mess.) Of course, it's a poor analogy. It would be better for St Spam to post some snide comments about the absurdity of atheism on HIS blog, and then see how WE like it.
We either won't care, or will come and try to argue points. What we won't do is ask that our sensitivities be respected, and he be expelled from his school or fired from his job.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 4:49 PM
It won't work. I really don't care what you think. Would I post here if I cared what atheists thought of me? As far as I know you are a nut who would shoot me. I guess we will have to agree to disagree.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 4:44 PM
The pedophile above raises an interesting point. It thinks it has eternal life in heaven. It, therefore, cannot be killed. As a matter of fact, the only rational conclusion to draw from people who believe as this pedophile does is that Christians, generally speaking, are immortals who cannot be killed. If they are alive in heaven, then by definition they aren't dead anywhere.
So why would they be so worried about getting shot?
Posted by: SR | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
Well, kudos on keeping to your word.
But damn, hire a bodyguard /now/. Preferably a non-religious one. Or several. I'm not kidding.
Posted by: Iason Ouabache | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
Seriouisly, why isn't there a limit to the number of characters you can put in the comment box? That would have taken care of this problem before it even started.
Posted by: Michelle | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
Fr. J. You are paranoid. I don't think we can say much more. I certainly wouldn't kill you for I'm actually, GASP, a moral person. Like most people on earth are. Just because we don't have your beliefs does not make us monsters. (But just between you and me, giving info on the net would be absolutely stupid. It's the best way to get spam snail mail.)
It's pretty sad that you believe so, but then again it is written in the bible for you to do so. I guess you can't help it.
Posted by: BostonRob | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
religion breeds the most disgustingly vile haters in our country
Haha, sorry about this, but the "youth terminology" leaked into my mind when I read this. Hate the game, not the playah! Hoo boy. Nearly Friday.
Posted by: Christophe Thill | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
- "Klaatu barada niktu" is NOT in the Necronomicon. Let's not get confused with "Iä Shub-Niggurath, the Black Goat of the woods with a thousand young". I admit the confusion is possible.
- I still don't understand why some ignorant guys insist that the Nazi holocaust was perpetrated by atheists. Hitler said he was doing "the work of the Creator" (the quotation is now rather famous). I guess most of the SS were brought up in the dominant Lutheran religion. But they had a sort of semi-official mystic, deriving from ancient Germanic polytheism. Atheism was definitely not an option.
- PZ, that's terrible? What have you done to the banana, the fruit most loved by the Almighty? Remember, He loved mankind so much that He gave it this unique fruit, just the right size to fit a human hand. Mistreating a banana is more than a crime.
- I had never heard the story about the church of the Billettes. Well, now I know. It was built on the site of a destroyed house belonging to a Jew, who was killed (the story goes) for desecrating the host. How charming.
Posted by: foxfire | July 24, 2008 4:50 PM
Well done PZ!
There once was a teacher called P-Zed,
who dishonored a relic of stale bread;
This raised catholic ire
and the lambkins did fire
threats of great harm and to make-dead.
Posted by: Mark B | July 24, 2008 4:51 PM
Hey PZ:
1. How about a post character limit? Although it might be hard on some of the more thoughtful posters, 4096 characters would be enough for most posts. If someone has something longer to say, they can split it into tow posts.
2. How about a little javascript to defeat the most common forms of cut-and-paste. You can easily write something to defeat right clicking and cntrl-V. I suspect you can defeat dragging text in with the mouse, but I don't know how to do that off the top of my head. Such things are pretty easy to defeat, but it should stop some of the stupider spammers from pasting in long screeds.
Posted by: Rourke | July 24, 2008 4:51 PM
As an ex-Catholic I have to say, bravo. I used to be a "liberal Catholic" who liked the idea of openmindedness, but hated it in practice. I've been to Catholic schools where they teach modern ideas of democracy and tolerance right beside the myth that the Middle Ages wasn't that bad, the Catholic Church had nothing to do with it, and the world is horrible because of secular humanism (gasp!) They also taught the myth that evolution is "guided", that we had to respect Tradition with a capital "T", and all *sorts* of other myths besides! I feel bad for you, having to suffer through all the mindless idiot comments from supposedly "modern" Catholics getting all riled up about this. The Catholic Church, for the small good it sometimes does (Catholic Charities, etc.) is a relic of the Middle Ages. Good grief!
Posted by: Jason Failes | July 24, 2008 4:51 PM
Never have so many had so much to say about such a small and meaningless thing.
Cheers, PZ, maybe some will stick around and learn a little when the sharp point of your intellect is pointing at some other target, or pointing to some new and interesting piece of biological science.
I guess that's my challenge, angry Catholics. Don't leave with the cracker, stay and read PZ's posts for a year. You just may find that empiricism, science, and rational thinking are not only infectious, but a hell of a lot of fun, too.
Posted by: ennui | July 24, 2008 4:52 PM
Phase 1 is finally complete: crackerjack/crackerfrack/crackerwhack.
I anxiously await Phase 2: PZ and Ken Miller formal debate on the subject of transubstantiation. Watch the NOMA people squirm! Watch the framers sweat!
C'mon PZ, put out the challenge! Teh internets demands it.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 4:52 PM
Sir, I salute you. Mmm, banana flavored coffee :)
Posted by: pcarini | July 24, 2008 4:52 PM
I'm sure I'm incredibly late to the fray now, but excellent post PZ.
Also, Firefox has this lovely feature where you can type in a word an go to its position on the page instantly. Zipping past the super long eucharist spam takes about 3 keystrokes: Ctrl+F + [the number of the post after it]
Posted by: BostonRob | July 24, 2008 4:52 PM
religion breeds the most disgustingly vile haters in our country
Haha, sorry about this, but the "youth terminology" leaked into my mind when I read this. Hate the game, not the playah! Hoo boy. Nearly Friday.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 4:53 PM
Just about time to imprison the spamming godbot douchebag, innit?
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 4:53 PM
Great job, Professor Myers. You have intentionally insulted the world's one billion Catholics, the vast, vast majority of which have done absolutely nothing to you, in order to get back at a few dozen who sent you rude emails. Bravo.
Do you think you're the first to desecrate the Eucharist? You aren't the first, and you won't be the last - it has been desecrated for nearly 2,000 years, as we Catholics have believed in transubstantiation since long before the 13th century. St. Augustine, a man from the 4th century, wrote about the Eucharist being the actual Body and Blood of Christ, after all.
But, if it makes you feel better to believe that we arbitrarily invented transubstantiation 800 years ago in order to persecute Jews, who am I to ask that you bother to argue according to historical fact?
Though I do have one critique of your desecration method. You should have nailed the Eucharist to a small wooden cross. Then you could have said to it, If you truly are the Christ, come down from the Cross and save yourself, and then proceeded to sneer at and mock the 'cracker' when nothing happened. That would have been an excellent reenactment of what happened nearly 2,000 years ago. Plus it would have made you look even more ridiculous than you already do.
Anyway, it's too bad your acolytes don't take your advice when you ask them to question everything. Obviously they don't question your actions, no matter how stupid and illogical they may be.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 4:53 PM
Sir, I salute you. Mmm, banana flavored coffee :)
Posted by: Gilipollas Caraculo | July 24, 2008 4:54 PM
(Holding a gun on a wafer)
Gimme your money or the cracker gets it!
Posted by: minus | July 24, 2008 4:55 PM
Referenc 553:
"When all the howling, gnashing of teeth, pontification and squealing is done tis just a cracker...live with it...!"
I always wondered about that. How does one gnash one's teeth anyway?
Great Job PZ, and I don't mean the book of...
Posted by: Voltaire | July 24, 2008 4:55 PM
@804 - unfounded claims that he is a pedophile = not cool.
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 4:55 PM
Holy fuck, the spam.
Well, it just helps prove the point.
Posted by: James Stein | July 24, 2008 4:55 PM
Delete the spam please, and kudos on throwing out the trash!
Posted by: anthropic | July 24, 2008 4:55 PM
PZ,
I admire your science and your efforts in educating those who are ignorant of it. This blog is the first one I read every day (often more than once a day). But this whole cracker thing is beneath you. It has hurt the cause of rational thought.
Rational thinkers (those who do not rely on accepting things as true without evidence) all know it's just a piece of unleavened bread. But this incident is nothing more than a provocation of those who live with their delusions. It makes atheists look like wackos (just horses of a different color).
Everything Dawkins, Dennett, Harris, Hitchens, and you have worked so hard for up until now has suffered a major set back as the result of this whole thing. Rather than continuing to use reason and knocking down delusional behavior by presenting evidence, all this did was to draw unfavorable attention. Now we - atheists - look like as stupid as the delusional hate-flled morons we are trying so hard to debunk.
I'm sorry to say, but you went too far with this one. You were miles ahead and now we're all rolling in the mud with cretins (who will probably succeed in hurting you or getting you fired). You are outstanding in your clarity of thought and on principle I agree with you 100%.
If you want to get rid of a hornets nest you can freeze it. Then you nicely clip it off the stem, wrap it in a bag, and dispose of it. Unfortunately, what you did was whack it with a stick, just to show that you could.
Please, please, please, get back to science; to rational thinking. Don't stoop to the level of the cretins. Battle them with sound scientific evidence. This is not Springer, after all.
Posted by: D. Edward Farrar | July 24, 2008 4:56 PM
mick lafferty:
"the atheistic nazis killing 6 million Jews and 10 million others."
When will you learn: Hitler was Catholic! (So were all but one of the major Fascist leaders, by the way: So there you have Mussolini, Franco, Salazar, Laval and Petain...some of the minor dictators were even priests. Oh, the exception was Quisling in Norway. He was Protestant. None of them was an atheist.)
And if you were planning on playing that game where you claim he was only pretending to be a Christian, then presumably you believe all the other good Germans who packed the church pews on Sundays before returning to their jobs as Concentration Camp guards or Gestapo torturers or Hitler Youth guarding railroad stations to make sure the Jews did not escape when their trains stopped (like young Joseph Ratzinger, before he became Pope - you do recall he was a Hitler Youth don't you?) were faking it too. They were not obviously.
WW2 was just not a high point in the history of the Catholicism, even before Bishop Alois Hudal assisted prominent Nazis in escaping to South America. So in the future, I advise you to avoid mentioning the entire period if you are trying to defend your church.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 4:56 PM
Don't you find it odd that if we went to a catholic site and pasted huge texts blocks in an attempt to crash the server they would be demanding that we be charged with a hate crime?
In their eyes it's not a hate crime when it's done to Atheists.
As I said before though, at least he serves as wonderful example of what we've been saying about Abrahamic religions teaching people to abuse others.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 4:56 PM
Spam may be repetitious, but so are the atheist's comments. I should offer a reward for a new idea from the atheists.
The Catholic League may indeed have a point. Dr. Myers may have violated UM standards. I am sure you all would want him held accountable? Of course, you could push to eliminate such policies at universities. But that would leave atheists nothing to hide behind.
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 4:57 PM
Kudos to Bill Donahue--go get him, Tiger! Donahue's analogies were great. Would a University stand for it if one of its professors donned a white hood, burned a cross on his front lawn, said "I hate Niggers", and posted that film on the Internet? No. The University would fire him. Would a University stand for it if one of its professors posted a picture of himself wearing a swastika t-shirt with "Jews Suck" emblazoned thereon, ripping a Torah, and placing it in the trash bin with a side of ham? No. The University would fire him. It's time to treat Catholics with the same respect. Fire the bum!!! Myers didn't keep his hatred and bigotry to himself--he posted it on the Internet for all the world to see. That made it the University's business; that made it fair game in terms of firing him. Who wants such an immature bigot teaching our students? I'd be willing to guess that he subtly or not-so-subtly carries over his prejudices into the classroom. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he mocks Catholics and other Christians in his classroom. (Heck, I heard at least 3 public school teachers insult Catholics during classtime when I was a kid.) Or perhaps he gives his Catholic students lower grades when they stand up for their religion? We just don't know. The bottom line is, a puerile, adolescent, hate-filled bigot should not hold a position as a professor at any reputable University. I call on the students to boycott his classes, the teachers to yell for his resignation, and the University to fire him. And to all his dumb-ass groupies on this website, you should recognize that the Catholic Church is the single largest charitable provider in the WORLD. Don't discount the amazing love and kindness the Church shows the world each day simply because a handful of homosexual priests broke their vows. The VAST majority of priests have remained faithful to their vows and have sacrificed their lives to help other people. I'm wasting my breath, though. Closed-minded bigots will never change.
Posted by: Homeotic | July 24, 2008 4:57 PM
From recent Catholic League Press Release: Concluding paragraph..."It is important for Catholics to know that the University of Minnesota will not tolerate the deliberate destruction of the Eucharist by one of its faculty. Just as African Americans would not tolerate the burning of a cross, and Jews would not tolerate the display of swastikas, Catholics will not tolerate the desecration of the Eucharist."
Non-sequitur alert! How can the CL make these comparisons. Utter inanity.
Posted by: Muffin | July 24, 2008 4:57 PM
^5 PZ!
Posted by: River | July 24, 2008 4:58 PM
I like how Catholics think spamming this blog with their frivolous, giant blocks of inanity will actually do anything.
Anyway, I really liked this post and how it attacked the frivolity of belief in deities and sacred objects. That's one of the things I love about PZ: his mysterious use of evidence and reason when he makes an argument.
One of things I like about Buddhism is that the Dali Lama once said that if Buddhist teachings did not match those teachings of science, then it was the Buddhist teachings which should be modified--not the other way around. If only more religions followed that standard, then I think the world would be a better place. I've also never met a Buddhist who thought it was his/her duty to convert me.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 4:59 PM
#799 Concern troll! Lets get him!
Posted by: the strangest brew | July 24, 2008 4:59 PM
They lay their religion bare...for all to witness the gutless,pointless,mind numbing,idiocy of their position.
This is the level of intelligence they display,how out of touch with reality,brain dead incompetent posers...spectacularly how incapable of being of the Christian faith that these pathetic vermin so stridently boast and claim they are...Lying hypocritical posers.
Devoid of meaning, devoid of life, devoid of relevance,devoid of dignity and devoid of honour and certainly devoid of grace...may their god forgive them for their insanity...
They should be thoroughly ashamed of their religion...and thoroughly ashamed of themselves above all.
Posted by: Christian Ridley | July 24, 2008 4:59 PM
After reading this article, if I could pick out one defining point in my life in which my atheism was confirmed above all, I would place this moment near to the top. This whole outrage over a cracker has done nothing but affirm my intense disgust for Catholicism and religion.
Well done PZ for finally doing it, it can't be easy right now being you with all this bullshit flying around, but you have support the world over.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 4:59 PM
CristESSENCE Table Wafers - "It's good for the soul!"
now fortified with iron!
...
..
.
Posted by: Heteroscedasticity | July 24, 2008 5:00 PM
As an Atheist I must say I agree with your post anthropic
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 5:00 PM
The Catholic League is all about getting upset for the sake of getting upset. How do they know the cracker had the magic spell put on it? How do they know for certain that it is the Eucharist? Before thinking, they want blood. Also, can they not read??? What about the death threats?? Just ignore those and not take responsibility like cowards.
This is my favorite part. And I hope the Catholics and apologetics roll this paragraph around in their mouth and read it aloud before they post anything:
"I think if I were truly evil, I would have to demand that all of my acolytes be celibate, but would turn a blind eye to any sexual depravities they might commit. If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I'd drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue. If I wanted to commit world-class evil, I'd undermine efforts at family planning by the poor, especially if I could simultaneously enable the spread of deadly diseases. And if I wanted to be so evil that I would commit a devastating crime against the whole of the human race, twisting the minds of children into ignorance and hatred, I would be promoting the indoctrination of religion in children's upbringing, and fomenting hatred against anyone who dared speak out in defiance."
Posted by: Charles | July 24, 2008 5:00 PM
here is little Effie's head
whose brains are made of gingerbread
when judgment day comes
God will find six crumbs
stooping by the coffinlid
waiting for something to rise
as the other somethings did-
you imagine his surprise
bellowing through the general noise
Where is Effie who was dead?
-to God in a tiny voice,
i am may the first crumb said
whereupon its fellow five
crumbs chuckled as if they were alive
and number two took up the song
might i'm called and did no wrong
cried the third crumb, i am should
and this is my little sister could
with our big brother who is would
don't punish us for we were good;
and the last crumb with some shame
whispered unto God, my name
is must and with the others i've
been Effie who isn't alive
just imagine it I say
God amid a monstrous din
watch your step and follow me
stooping by Effie's little, in
(want a match or can you see?)
which the six subjective crumbs
twitch like mutilated thumbs;
picture His peering biggest whey
coloured face on which a frown
puzzles, but I know the way-
(nervously Whose eyes approve
the blessed while His ears are crammed
with the strenuous music of
the innumerable capering damned)
-staring wildly up and down
the here we are now judgment day
cross the threshold have no dread
lift the sheet back in this way
here is little Effie's head
whose brains are made of gingerbread
E. E. Cummings
Posted by: LawnBoy | July 24, 2008 5:01 PM
Brian D (#762),
Do you have that GreaseMonkey script (or a know a way for us to get it)?
Thanks
Posted by: Andrew | July 24, 2008 5:01 PM
Anyone want to specify how exactly one can use Greasemonkey to filter out all of this spam? Thanks! =)
Posted by: Jason Failes | July 24, 2008 5:02 PM
Oh, and PZ, if you need a bodyguard, I am 201cm, 285lbs, a 2dan, and I can yell a hell of a "NOOOOOOOO!" while jumping in front of you to block a bullet.
However, I will not work for stale bread. I don't care how many gods it has in it....
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 24, 2008 5:02 PM
Like Christian Ridley it was not until all this cracker furore kicked off that I realised just how vile Catholicism is, and how nasty some of its adherehents could be.
Well done Fr J. You have confirmed in my mind yours is a vile, petty, vindictive religion that cares more for dogma than it does for people.
Posted by: Numad | July 24, 2008 5:03 PM
"[...]simply because a handful of homosexual priests broke their vows."
You are pondscum.
Posted by: TomJoe | July 24, 2008 5:03 PM
So PZ, that's the best you could come up with? Sheesh.
How anti-climactic.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:03 PM
Yah, spam-free since 5 PM (Eastern).
Posted by: GeoffI | July 24, 2008 5:05 PM
thanks Brian D! For anyone who is interested:
Greasemonkey
https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/748
Killfile for science blogs
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/4107
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 5:06 PM
Myers: Thanks for giving us your take on the Year 1215. Did you know we're now in the year 2008? Maybe you didn't get the memo. If I follow your "logic" correctly, the Catholic Church did a few things you didn't like in the year 1215, so you feel justified today in desecrating Catholic property and intentionally baiting Catholics? Talk about holding a grudge. I think society in general was a little rough in the middle ages--not just the Catholic Church. I think people have gotten much more civilized over the centuries. Most of us have, anyway. You're obviously still a brutish, uncivilized, dumb ass. If we follow your analogy, any non-Christians (including atheists) who committed brutal acts in the year 1215 or otherwise should be punished today--in 2008. Wow, you just set yourself up!
Posted by: Lord Zero | July 24, 2008 5:06 PM
Well, thats just what they deserve.
Rest in the trash can its just fitting.
Anyway, the idiot who copy-pasted all that
text must be really bored. Please it hurt
my eyes, could you delete it ?
Posted by: Jtradke | July 24, 2008 5:06 PM
Thanks for this, PZ. Excellent statement of protest.
Posted by: Rick Schauer | July 24, 2008 5:07 PM
Bravo, PZ!
Posted by: Richard Wolford | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
Hey there Sandi,
The Catholic church burned people; PZ tossed a cracker in the trash.
So kindly shut the fuck up you ignorant little tool.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
Sandi, read the original posts and get a clue.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
Ben, PZ doesn't believe that the truth is relative. No serious Secular Humanist does. PZ wouldn't be a scientist if he didn't view approximate truth as highly important to himself and others. The whole deal here is: your religious truth claim is false. The idea that those wafers are a dead Jewish man is groundless. There is no legitimate evidence for it. He's not a relativist, you are in insisting that he should respect a false claim as truth.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
anthropic, in a way you are right. He has done a disservice to your cause. However, your own prejudice betrays you. Those delusional cretins you bemoan are your fellow atheists. They also share your beliefs. They agree with your bigoted attitudes towards Christians. PZ shows us the true face behind the facade. Behind the mask is a sneer. Once you pierce that thin crust of geniality a scalding lava of hatred pours out. He is just out of the closet. You are no different from him, you just hide it better.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
In case anyone can still read through the barrage of BS...
Comment #89 wins.
Posted by: Nino | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
Well, this is absolute proof: religion is a spam... or was is scam???
Posted by: Rose | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus. Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
I suspect Bill Donowhore will have apoplexy when he discovers that PZ is only under the listed University rules when he is on campus or on official school business. What he does in his own home and on his own time is not under the jusristiction of the Univeristy.
Posted by: Cyde Weys | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
I know I'm just getting lost in the crowd now, but ...
I'd like to see some media coverage of this from the reality-based angle. You know, a reporter not credulously stating that destroying a cracker is some huge sacrilege.
It's not like it was even a good cracker or anything.
Posted by: Le Shreve | July 24, 2008 5:11 PM
Kudos. I am so inspired to end my self-imposed gag-order on the idiocy of religion for the sake of social harmony. Madness. Idiots. Hilarity!
Posted by: JoJo | July 24, 2008 5:11 PM
Isn't this the guy who was telling us about all those brave martyrs, dying at the hands of atheists or North Koreans or whatever? I guess his faith isn't that strong that he'd prove god's existence in a cracker by dying for his faith. Why am I not surprised?"Everyone wants to go to Heaven, nobody's in a hurry to get there." -Old Irish Saying
This canard has been disproved several times. You'd think that a guy with 12.52 degrees and an IQ of 142×10²³ would only have to be told once. Unless he's an unthinking ideologue.
Yep, unthinking ideologue.
"'What is truth?'said jesting Pilate; and would not stay for an answer."
This is so much bushwah. I know they exist and I try to be good and true in my life (beauty, unfortunately, has been denied me). I just have other bases for goodness, truth and beauty than belief in The Big Guy In The Sky™. My goodness, truth and beauty are found internally, not forced upon me by an outside authority.
What are you babbling about, "Father"? Are you saying that The Big Guy In The Sky™ is the only source of goodness, truth and beauty? Several billion Hindus, Buddhists, animists, etc. would disagree with you.
Atheism is a disbelief in deities. Nothing more, nothing less. That you hate it, because it might make you actually examine your beliefs, is not our fault. For someone who's supposedly so smart, you are very narrow minded.
Yeah right. That's why you've been whining at us for the past several days. The only reason we may have lost is that we weren't having a contest in the first place.
The Galilean had not actually won, because Rome smuggled into the new 'Christianity' all its pet paganisms: polytheism, temple worship, priests, sacrifices and virgin cult. People could call themselves Christians while actually opposing Christianity.
Have I mentioned that you're still a patronizing, pompous prig?
Posted by: D. Edward Farrar | July 24, 2008 5:11 PM
Apparently Fr. J also wishes to pretend that Hitler wasn't Catholic, and that Joseph Ratzinger wasn't a member of the Hitler Youth before becoming Pope.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 5:12 PM
This desecration has been brought to you by:
The producers of Religulous, coming soon to a theater near you,
and,
The new Belgian owners of Amhauser Busch -
"This Bud's for Jesus!"
and,
new, low calorie, Christ o'Cracker Lite table wafers-
"Tastes Great!"
"Less God-Filling!"
...
..
.
Posted by: Dr_Dave | July 24, 2008 5:12 PM
I'm still not sure what I think about this whole thing, it had smacked of insult for insult's sake. But I suppose that's the whole point - people are being insulted over the fate of a ... biscuit. What bigger indictment of the inanity of "modern" religion?
Posted by: JeffreyD | July 24, 2008 5:12 PM
A very good post, sir. I salute you.
And now, for the last time - Pax Nabisco
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:12 PM
Trust me, I have no mask. Just a sneer for all the ignoramuses like you. Disclaimer: I am referring to ignoramuses, not christians.
Posted by: Waltherian Succession | July 24, 2008 5:12 PM
It's cute how Sandi @ #816 thinks it can make an argument. Lemme spell it out for you, kid:
Your bullshit theology, with its foundations laid at many such church conferences, is still steeped in Middle Age Magical Thinking. Case in point, the poor college kid who got death threats over nabbin' a damn cracker from church. PZ Myers here thought it was stupid to get all up in arms about cracker-desecration, which apparently is a crime to you guys. That cracker-desecration stuff comes from 1215.
Reading can open a whole world of understanding!
Posted by: Adam | July 24, 2008 5:13 PM
Dear Professor,
I guess I don't get it. As a Catholic, I am very saddened to see what was done. I also don't understand the point of the destruction of a Quran.
No one is forcing you to believe in God, to believe in the Eucharist.
Certainly the Church has done terrible things in the past. So has pretty much every group on the face of the planet. If you disagree, why not enter into dialogue to convince people of your point of view? The hatred spewed against you by Catholics is unfortunate, but the insults given to you were based on an insult to Christians.
You can think it's a cracker. I don't mind. I don't think many Catholics would mind. If you want to debate, that's just fine. You might even win some folks over to your point of view, and isn't that a better reward for you? What reward did you get from this? You made a lot of people mad. You got some attention. Is that really that fulfilling?
From what I've read of your work, you are incredibly intelligent. From the discussions I've heard you take part in, you are incredibly engaging. Certainly you and I disagree on many things, but how can a genuine discussion take place if you resort to this sort of behavior?
Some of my best friends are atheists and we have such great discussions. You could have engaged so many in great debate and even won many to your side, perhaps. Now, however, you have simply galvanized the teams. Those who support you now adore you. Those who disagree with you now despise you. What a shame the opportunity for scholarly debate has been lost.
Posted by: DMH | July 24, 2008 5:13 PM
Well done, PZ.
Truly a well-written piece; I will forward the link to my few catholic friends, if only one of them opens his/her mind, it will have been worth it.
Oh, by the way, I hope the jeebus-fanatics will soon learn than there is a subtle (!) difference in praying vs. preying for someone's soul. Or maybe they're just flouting their predatory instincts, for all to behold. Organised religion sickens me to my core.
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 5:13 PM
Apropos of nothing, this reminds me of a joke I heard a few years back...
Three men get shipwrecked and wash up on a tropical island, where they're captured by cannibals. They're terrified and they beg the cannibals not to eat them, so finally the cannibals' leader says, "Okay, we'll let you live, but only if you pass a test. The first part of the test is to go out into the jungle and collect ten pieces of fruit. I'll tell you the second part when you get back." The men all agree to the test and each heads out separately into the jungle to collect his fruit.
The first guy comes back with ten apples. The cannibal leader says, "Okay, good job. Now here's the second part of the test: if you can shove all ten of those apples up your ass and keep a straight face, you get to live, otherwise we kill you." So the guy tries his best to do it, but he only gets about three up there before he loses it and the cannibals kill him instantly.
Then the second guy comes back, and he's got ten tiny little berries. The cannibal leader tells him what he's got to do, and he gets started. He's got about eight up there, with little trouble and plenty of room for more when all of a sudden he bursts into uncontrollable laughter. So the cannibals kill him too.
The second guy gets to heaven and meets the first guy there, and the first guy says, "Hey man, what gives? You could've made it easy! Why'd you lose it at the end there?" And the second guy replies, "I just couldn't help it! I was going along with no trouble at all and I was sure I was gonna be okay, and then I saw the third guy coming back with pineapples!"
Posted by: Jamie | July 24, 2008 5:13 PM
nice work PZ, i have enjoyed following this.
i wonder if you have seen the new tarsem movie 'the fall' (dvd on sep. 9)? it's wonderful so i recommend it, but in it a little girl takes a cracker from a church because she is to young to understand the (absurd) significance. she eats it later, for the simple fact that she is hungry. wonder why a big hoopla wasn't made of this--i'm thinking it's because religious people listen more to what they are told from there idiot preachers then go to art house movie theaters.
Posted by: AJ Milne | July 24, 2008 5:14 PM
Anyone want to specify how exactly one can use Greasemonkey to filter out all of this spam? Thanks! =)
Install Greasemonkey first (Firefox extension) if you don't have it already, then go to the Dungeon tab. There's a link there to the killfile script. Follow it, there's a link to install the script. Then you'll get little 'kill' and 'hide comment' options next to all comments. Hide/kill to your heart's content.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 5:14 PM
Yeah, an unfortunate bit, that. The real unfortunate part is that you should have been insulted when your church was found to be complicit in the atrocities of the Nazis, and you should have been insulted when your head Pontiff assisted in the coverup of molestation by priests, and you should and should remain insulted when your leaders oppose methods of birth control that would save the lives of millions of Africans, and you should be insulted by the million of other insults to humanity your church sees fit to inflict upon the rest of us.
But it's pretty clear that all that matters to you people is the protection of your own beliefs and rituals, and damn the rest of the world.
Anyways, we're all terribly sorry that your feelings are hurt. If it makes you feel better, in the time that it took me to type this, ~50 Africans were just infected with HIV. So boo-fucking-hoo, you genocide-supporting prick.
Posted by: David Uezato | July 24, 2008 5:14 PM
#793,
The point of Dawkins, Hitchens, and the rest of them, is that religion should not be treated with any kind of respect. Do you not pick up on the contempt in the tone of their books and debates? Professor Myers has done nothing to tarnish their goals. He has infact exemplified the behavior they wish to see bestoyed upon religion in a very dignified manner. Not all atheists have the same goals as you or feel that the goal, of removing religion, will be achieved in the same way. Your input is appreciated but I ask you to understand the message of the people you refer to before you comment on them.
Posted by: JanieBelle | July 24, 2008 5:14 PM
Bravo, Dr. PZ.
A piece of art and reason for the ages, which I will not hold sacred!
Kisses to you
Posted by: Horwood Beer-Master | July 24, 2008 5:15 PM
Wait, old coffeegrounds?
BLASPHEMY!!!
Those should be tea-leaves dammit!
May Russell's teapot strike you down for your disgusting heathen choice of caffeinated beverage!
What next? Desecration of a Wedgwood set? I never thought I'd live to see such blatant anti-teapotist bigotry from a so-called college professor.
Posted by: Sconnor | July 24, 2008 5:15 PM
The picture is reminiscent of the Dutch artists, from the 17 century, who were masters of still life.
PZ, in a word -- BRILLIANT!
--S.
Posted by: firemancarl | July 24, 2008 5:15 PM
Look, I am just over joyed that PZ has referred to us as his acolytes. Damn, it feels good!
Posted by: StinkyFeet | July 24, 2008 5:15 PM
The only hate crime would be if P.Z. lost his professorship because of the idiocy of the Catholic League
Posted by: Ticktockman | July 24, 2008 5:16 PM
Posted by Rose:
"Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee. Blessed are thou amongst women and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
So *that's* what was up with the banana!
-TTm
Posted by: Tom L | July 24, 2008 5:16 PM
Haven't time to sift through all the comments to see if anybody has already made these points; please forgive if I'm being redundant.
1) The fact that no Muslims have bothered you over this is not any endorsement of their comparative tolerance; it's merely a demonstration of your principle that pious people are not actually opposed to desecration, only desecration of their particular symbols. Now that you have actually thrown away some pages from a Koran, I would not be surprised to see the Muslims join the fray.
2) It's unfortunate that you should choose to drive a nail through the Host, as that reinforces their silly stories about desecration. If you had wanted to reinforce your position about it being nothing but a cracker, the most appropriate thing to do with it would be what one does with any ordinary cracker: namely, unceremoniously eat it. (Preferably with Cheese Whiz, an approximate match in terms of palatability.)
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 5:16 PM
"I knew the first thing that would happen is that the loons would claim it is a fake cracker. The one I chose to photograph is one that the sender actually provided video documentation of where it came from.
Not that there's any substantial difference between the consecrated and unconsecrated version."
ROTFLMAO!
Posted by: rke | July 24, 2008 5:17 PM
The God Delusion? You bastard!
Posted by: Traffic Demon | July 24, 2008 5:17 PM
I used to be an atheist. PZ is my god now. RAmen.
Posted by: Kryth | July 24, 2008 5:18 PM
Hey PZ can I get that picture on a T-shirt?
Posted by: Jeff Knapp | July 24, 2008 5:18 PM
To st Luke and all the rest who keep posting this crap. It ain't gonna work! Fucking idiots.
At any time, your silly posts can be removed. I'm guessing they are being left up just to show how utterly stupid and crazy you all are. Oh, and the sever has not crashed. Hmmmmm...
Stop quivering in fear like frightened children and get your stupid, god-soaked heads out of your asses and join the real world. You never know, you just might like it.
Posted by: a coward | July 24, 2008 5:18 PM
"Nothing must be held sacred." ...excepting, of course, the tenet that nothing must be held sacred.
Posted by: Nick | July 24, 2008 5:18 PM
Jesus never answered me when I asked for his help when a priest, a "close, family friend", fucked me and my sisters when we were kids. In fact, he did the opposite. One of his "men on earth" branded me a hysterical liar and my parents were dumb enough to believe him. The catholic church concealed his well documented paedophilia for years - it all finally came out in a court case 18 months ago - not just us but dozens of kids, and the church knew it but just kept moving him around from parish to parish. He's now doing time, and I haven't spoken to my family for 10 years. Catholicy? You have a lot to answer for.
Posted by: Rodrigo Neely | July 24, 2008 5:19 PM
I think the page from the God Delusion in there was a particularly nice touch, especially since it asserts your opposition to dogma.
I think many people of faith don't realize that we, secular humanists, don't hold stuff sacred.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 5:19 PM
JoJo, I hesitate to say this but...for an alleged former Captain you aren't very bright. But hey, you were Navy. I remember squid officers like you back in the day. I pity those who had the misfortune to be under your command.
How about some light reading? Try, The Christians as the Romans Saw Them by Wilken. If you are going to be an atheist at least try not to disgrace yourself. Cheers.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 24, 2008 5:20 PM
Is there a weird sect of Catholicism which circumcises the heart? - llewelly
I believe so: the Novices of the Sacred Heart. The name refers to the fact that the order consists only of novices, no full brothers, since circumcising the heart is invariably fatal.
I vote that PZ be awarded both Bill Donahue's ears, and his tail.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 5:21 PM
To all of you saying that critiquing religious ideology and assaulting and tormenting other human beings on the basis of their ethnicity are equal, here's a newsflash: you are insane. Ethnicity is not a choice and does not in itself make any truth claims. People are born into their ethnic identity without having a say in the matter. Religion is an individual's choice, and one which can be critiqued by others on the basis of the truth of falsity of that religion's truth claims. There is no reasonable ground for critiquing someone on the basis of their ethnic identity. Therefore, saying that the act of PZ Myers tossing those items into a garbage can is comparable to an ethnic hate crime is absurd. Get a grip. Think a little.
Posted by: Brian D | July 24, 2008 5:22 PM
LawnBoy:Brian D (#762),
Do you have that GreaseMonkey script (or a know a way for us to get it)?
Thanks
The script I use is available at:
http://userscripts.org/scripts/show/4107
GreaseMonkey is available through FireFox's add-ons.
Hope that helps.
Posted by: Moses | July 24, 2008 5:22 PM
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 24, 2008 2:57 PM
There is something wrong with the above person. Seriously wrong.
Posted by: Rose | July 24, 2008 5:22 PM
Response to #849. Actually, you just said your first prayer and maybe that will be the first step to aid in your salvation. May God have mercy on you, my friend.
Posted by: john tate | July 24, 2008 5:22 PM
I think we should all be grateful to whoever it was who posted the copy of the ECCLESIA DE EUCHARISTIA. Yes, perhaps it is overlong (and one posting would have been enough) but it will surely be a revelation to our erstwhile catholic visitors to see the breathtaking inanity of this document. I'm convinced that the more catholics know about the official doctrines of their faith, the more likely they are to ditch it out of pure embarassment.
Posted by: Pablo | July 24, 2008 5:22 PM
BTW, where are all the schmoes who were claiming he wouldn't have the guts to mess with the Koran?
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
To all of you saying that critiquing religious ideology and assaulting and tormenting other human beings on the basis of their ethnicity are equal, here's a newsflash: you are insane. Ethnicity is not a choice and does not in itself make any truth claims. People are born into their ethnic identity without having a say in the matter. Religion is an individual's choice, and one which can be critiqued by others on the basis of the truth or falsity of that religion's truth claims. There is no reasonable ground for critiquing someone on the basis of their ethnic identity. Therefore, saying that the act of PZ Myers tossing those items into a garbage can is comparable to an ethnic hate crime is absurd. Get a grip. Think a little.
Posted by: Greg Laden | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
I would not be surprised to see the Muslims join the fray.
Yes, I'm sure that this is true. But the biggest concern should be the rage of the Banana People.
Posted by: philiph | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
This Cracker Kerfuffle (a term I heard on the Skeptic's Guide to the Universe) reminded me of an article I heard a while ago. It was about the catholic church in Ireland opposing a stricter drunk driving law because of the chances of priests getting arrested after performing mass.
Apparently, besides the little bit they drink during mass, they also have to finish off any unused, blessed wine. Otherwise, they'd be as 'sinful' as was Webster Cook. Much better that we have drunk priests driving around than desecrate the blood of christ! Here's a link to the article.
http://www.irishtimes.com/newspaper/frontpage/2007/1102/1193444384351.html
Posted by: Logicel | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
Perfect post.
Humans don't lack the will to work towards change--in this case, to keep focused on denying respect for ridiculously primitive religious beliefs, while respecting at the same time the right to profess religious beliefs. Instead, we find it difficult to maintain awareness of the situation we want to change. So that will be the purpose of this post for me, when I get lax in keeping up my fever-pitched ridiculing of religious beliefs, I will re-read this post and be aware of why it is important to ridicule ridiculous beliefs at every possible chance.
Nincompoop in London wrote: Those that eat the host are proclaiming "I am part of the Church and I believe in what it teaches and we are all one in Christ.
Let me translate that for us: Those that eat a tasteless, shitty cracker are proclaiming, "I am part of an criminal organization and I support and encourage its criminal intentions and activities and we are all one in dangerous delusion."
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
Interesting....
____________________________
anthropic, in a way you are right. He has done a disservice to your cause. However, your own prejudice betrays you. Those delusional cretins you bemoan are your fellow atheists. They also share your beliefs. They agree with your bigoted attitudes towards Christians. PZ shows us the true face behind the facade. Behind the mask is a sneer. Once you pierce that thin crust of geniality a scalding lava of hatred pours out. He is just out of the closet. You are no different from him, you just hide it better.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 5:08 PM
_________________________________________
You are in need of some serious therapy. Your delusion that Atheist all think alike is akin to someone thinking all green eyed people think alike. It's absurd. It's been stated about a hundred time before but let me say it again...ATHEISM IS NOT A SET OF BELIEFS.
The only thing Atheists have in common with other Atheists is that we don't believe in deities. That's it. Some Atheists are passive, some are not. Some Atheist are in favor of gun ownership rights, some are anti-gun, some Atheists are are pro-war, some are anti-war, some Atheists are pro-choice, some are anti-abortion, some Atheists are nice, some are not so nice...the list goes on and on and on.
I am no more inclined to be similar to the other Atheist you meet than I am to be similar to the other green eyed women you meet. Your prejudice is just another example of your religion's failure to teach it's flock to be ethical beings.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:23 PM
Fr. J says,
The irony.
Posted by: Randall | July 24, 2008 5:24 PM
Used to be Catholic, Jesus tastes terrible, that's why they hand out the wine to was him down with.
Posted by: liz | July 24, 2008 5:24 PM
i am sure xtian loonies will think twice before linking to this post for propaganda...The post is sublime...it would be wonderful to be a student in your class.
Posted by: kestrien | July 24, 2008 5:25 PM
Sandi, pedophiles are PEDOPHILES. Meaning they like children.
They are not gay.
Posted by: Karl Withakay | July 24, 2008 5:25 PM
I feel like there's no point in posting a comment; as post 6xx in the crowd, it won't likely be noticed much but here goes.
Jesus said (supposedly) "take eat, this is my body." and "take drink, this is my blood.", and this has become a major foundation of many/most Christian religions, that it is in some way literally true.
Jesus also said, "I am the vine, and you are the branches." and yet, there seems to be no belief in our transubstantiation into branches. I fail to see how one can pick and choose which (supposed) words of Christ are literally true, and which are interpreted to be metaphor.
Why, even if you are a true believer in the divinity of Christ, can you not believe that Christ was saying, in essence, "take eat, this is a symbol of my body...take drink, this is a symbol of my blood....Do this as a ritual to remind yourselves of me and the things I have done and will do for you."?
It seems like many Christian faiths paint themselves into unnecessary corners, by firmly anchoring their faith on essentially unimportant precepts, such as the virgin birth, the immaculate conception, and transubstantiation. Perhaps it is because flexibility leads to questions, which lead to thoughts, and those just mess up everything where religion is concerned.
Posted by: Coriolis | July 24, 2008 5:26 PM
What type of "scholarly" debate is there to be had Adam, about religion? You believe in fairies, we don't, end of story. Neither side can convince the other, so that's that.
What can be debated is the actual, physical effects of religions on people, throughout history and now. I don't need to go over all the killings done in the name of religion in the past and to this very day. It's telling that apparently there are plenty of people who're willing to threaten the family of an evil cracker abuser and send him death threats. On the other hand, it is preposterous to even think that an atheist professor is going to do anything other then berate a student who decided to burn a science book or some other science object. For atheists, there are no objects that are as important as people, like sacred objects are for the religious. That's kind of the point.
Posted by: cynickal | July 24, 2008 5:26 PM
They are just paper.
You aren't recycling?!
I'm calling on all liberal, hippy, tree-hugging, elitists to call down the wrath of the Libeal League on to you and your ivory tower academia!!!
Uhm... tommorow, I have to get ready for yoga right now.
Oh wait, tomorrow is Swimming with Otters...
Well, someday! Someday you will feel the full wrath of the Liberal Leage and you'll convert your non-recycling ways!
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 24, 2008 5:26 PM
I felt a great tremor in the Force...
Oh, never mind. It was just a cosmic typo.
o^aPosted by: Kristen from MA | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Bravo sir!
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Sadly, you have become post #875.Posted by: Jeff Knapp | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Well... Looks like st Luke's et. all. have indeed been removed - during the time I wrote my post above.
As I said, they can be removed at any time ... and were!
--JK--
Posted by: La_voix_de_la_raison | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Hm.. this all seems rather childish. I am sure the point of this silliness was relayed somewhere in this hectic mess of sensationalism, but I missed it. I am sure it is something in the vein of "they started it".
Posted by: dina624 | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
I think all catholics and Christians of good will need to pray for this poor man and take this as the sign of the times that it is that it is NOT finished, but the beginning of persecution of all people of faith, but in particular Catholics.
Hitler may have first come for the communists, and finished with the Jews, but in America, in the west,they are starting with anyone who stands against the emerging Culture of Death, and quit frankly....only the Catholic church truly stands against them.
So it begins.
d~
Posted by: Fergy | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Sanctimonious Sandi wrote:
Oh, the sweet, sweet irony...
Posted by: Stuart Potter | July 24, 2008 5:27 PM
Well done PZ!
I'm worried this'll get you in a bit of hot water with the anti-cartoon brigade but I'll be more than happy to contribute to a protection fund! ;p
Posted by: Stephen Wells | July 24, 2008 5:28 PM
They still haven't grasped that what happens on Pharyngula is not connected to the University, have they?
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 5:28 PM
Le-yawn. It's your American right to do this and the Catholic's American right to be outraged. Their American right to believe in God, your American right to think it's all menudo. I've fought for your right to do it and I've fought for our right to be angry about it.
Am I Catholic? Yes sir. Am I angry? Yes Sir. Is it going to shake my faith? No sir. All in all, the gesture was as pointless as a man shitting in his own yard - it might be unsightly to the neighbors but the stink is yours alone to behold.
Cheers, PZ
Posted by: Inky | July 24, 2008 5:29 PM
re: pete rooke #310
3) Young ladies like to wear an item of clothing called a mini-skirt these days. The material is often sheer and by its definition does not even come close to covering the knee roll.(http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miniskirt)
Now if someone chooses to wear such an item it does not in the least bit make rape and sexual abuse permissible despite the fact that the odds increase exponentially. In both the eyes of the secular law and of my religion the assailants are still just as culpable.
Young ladies like to wear an item of clothing ca
Okay. First off, your analogies suck ass. That is probably the reason why no one bothered to respond to them. I wouldn't respond to them, either.
BUT:
Besides the absolutely freakish logical tangent that got you from crackers to mini-skirts (seriously, wtf is your problem?), your underlying assumptions and rationales for your statements are so fundamentally asinine that I'm quite literally amazed.
No, the material is not often sheer. Only in your heavily denied fantasies do women wear Saran Wrap mini-skirts. Apparently, voluminous women, because I sure as hell do not have rolls at my knees.
Rape and sexual abuse is not correlated with any type of clothing. Where are the alter boys wearing mini-skirts? Or even those at prison wearing mini-skirts?
Rape and sexual abuse is tied with violence, domination, and the lack of decency in a person.
I couldn't give a shit what you wear, I wouldn't rape you or sexually abuse you.
I have never befriended nor dated a guy that would do these things, either.
Thank you, you fucking asshole, for blaming the victims of these heinous crimes for apparently provoking attacks from dipshits like you. How dare you. And don't say that you put in that disclaimer that the assailants are culpable--reading in between the lines, it is clear where you truly stand. "What a bad thing for the guy to do, but the girl was asking for it." You miserable twat.
Posted by: Trance Gemini | July 24, 2008 5:29 PM
The God Delusion was a really nice touch. I love it. You're absolutely right. Nothing should be held sacred. Words on a piece paper, crackers, and the such are just not that important. Life is important and Freedom is important. Particularly freedom of speech. People have a right to express themselves without being harassed, receiving death threats, being intimidated by threats to their employment, etc. The more people who assert this right the better. Why? Because it will make it that much harder for threats and intimidations from the religious to work. Well done, PZ.
Posted by: arensb | July 24, 2008 5:29 PM
That's nice.
Of course, you have evidence to back this up, right? Some way of telling that this is reality and not lunacy?
Posted by: Sven DIMilo | July 24, 2008 5:30 PM
*sigh*.
As long as Dr. Myers continues to do a good job teaching his courses, is a good academic citizen with regard to committee work and meetings and such, does some research that involves undergraduates in a meaningful way, and refrains from antagonizing, molesting, or harming individual students, the administration of the University of Minnesota will not care what he does in his spare time with his personal blog, Ineffable Baked Goods, squids, or anything else.
And nor should they. What a waste of time.
Posted by: chancelikely | July 24, 2008 5:31 PM
#883 dina624:
The irony of a Christian using "Culture of Death" disparagingly of another group is surely lost on you, but that doesn't mean it isn't there.
Posted by: DK | July 24, 2008 5:31 PM
I couldn't be more pleased with how you did it, I wouldn't have thought to throw the God Delusion in there--way to keep EVERYBODY honest.
Posted by: Derek Colanduno | July 24, 2008 5:31 PM
I am beginning to believe that the ONE thing that religious belief might have as a benefit is... it obviously CREATES some form of physics breaking time creation effect. I say this because, *I* have never had enough time to come up with some of the ultra insane stuff that I see these folks post, or bitch about. I mean, REALLY, do any of them have the free time to relax or REALLY enjoy life?
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 5:31 PM
Vishnudammit, PZ, I WAS being productive today. Now I'm sucked into this hilarity.
In other news, according to my spell checker, hilarity is a word. Funny that.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 5:32 PM
War Over Nothing!
The logic of the Catholic League is to make the world a worse place than it is.
How does this work?
Someone says something they don't like, they raise a fuss, it causes some of the crazies in their ranks to send death threats.
Lets see Bill Donohue war causality count so far.
1. College Student receiving death threats.
2. College Student possibly getting expelled from school.
3. Professor Gets Death Threats
4. Threatening Professor's job.
5. Woman gets fired from Flowers.com because of crazy hubby sending death threats.
See what your Church does?? People involved in catholicism should be totally ashamed of themselves for representing such an odious set of ideas and hatred. It's ruining lives even as we speak.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 5:33 PM
Rayven, why are you unconcerned with the fact that not all religions are the same? In fact Catholicism is very different from fundamentalist baptist. BUT you insist on acting as if we were all the same. You bring up incidents from a thousand years ago and act as if it is current. Then you object when we point out atheist misbehavior from yesterday. You claim that is just individuals who happen to be atheists. If I claimed that about us you would object. Atheism is a belief and cannot be proven objectively. It has consequences and we have seen them. They are unpleasant. Are you not disturbed by the bigotry expressed here? I am right. It is a bit forthright for some, but you do think that way about us. When I see atheists objecting to the incredibly foul language, insults, bigotry etc. that I see here then you can lecture me on ethics.
We are going in circles folks. It is been proven scientifically right before my eyes that atheists are indeed bigoted and hateful towards religious people. Just read their posts. Myers has created animosity and pain. Some of you like that and therefore prove my point. He is a sick sad little man and so are his worshipers. Pax
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:33 PM
Have I mentioned that PZ does a great service to the society? Because he does, and ever so eloquently. The secularist movement needs more people like him.
Posted by: bgbaysjr | July 24, 2008 5:34 PM
Perfect! Both the essay, and the performance piece. (Nice touch, Comfort's banana...)
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 5:34 PM
Fixed.
Posted by: anthropic | July 24, 2008 5:34 PM
Fr J @ 823
Um....sorry, but you are wrong. I harbor not hatred. I just think you're a complete moron whose arguments simply don't add up. I'm not hiding anything. I grew up in a strictly Catholic household, went to a Catholic elementary school, Catholic high school, and graduated from a major Catholic university. I soaked in the stuff. Theology was forced down our throats.
I simply do not accept ANYTHING as true without evidence. Period. It's as simple as that. I do not believe writing cobbled together thousands of years ago by a bunch of bronze age desert dwellers and filled with hate and contradiction is the word of some deity.
I cannot prove there isn't a God. All I know is that there is zero evidence of one. I'd rather spend my life exploring nature and the universe in a rational manner than accept stories that have no substance as fact.
Posted by: Maitresse | July 24, 2008 5:34 PM
No, it is my job to decide the meaning in my own life. It is my job to decide what I will do with my life.
Religion makes up answers.
I'm sorry to break this to you, but as far as we know, nothing is eternal. Each of us will eventually die, and even this planet will eventually be gone.
Religion was made up by primitive people who could not otherwise explain things like disease, crop failures, or lightning. It was a way to deal with fear of the unknown. Why do you still need that? You are like a child who cannot give up his security blanket.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 5:35 PM
# 868 philiph, Thank you for that link. I found it quite interesting.
I begs the question, if holy wine truly is turned into Jebus blood, why does it still get them drunk? Kind of debunks their whole claim right there, don't it? Duh.
Perhaps all that blood drinking/getting drunk is why they are able to spout what they do. Does anyone realize they are sitting there listening to the ramblings of a bunch of drunk people?
My youngest son came up with this gem of wisdom when he was a wee boy of six and we were studying religious history....
"I think humans invented religion because they took drugs and saw things they could not explain."
or something to that affect, in small-boy-talk. We were discussing our theories of when and why humans first developed religious beliefs.
Posted by: HermitCrab | July 24, 2008 5:35 PM
Well done, PZ.
Posted by: Ticktockman | July 24, 2008 5:35 PM
Response to Rose at 864
Incorrect. I prayed often as a religiously raised child. Even then I found the whole shebang questionable but decided to do my own research, which led inevitably to atheism. Reason works.
-TTm
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 24, 2008 5:36 PM
hmmm - we're approaching 300 comments/hr here, almost 5 each minute.
Is this a local record?
I haven't seen a Guiness Book in several years - do they have a blogistics category? Could this be a world record?
Prof. Myers may have escaped this escapade virtually unscathed, but the Seed servers are surely suffering in his stead.
Inquiring minds need to know - what sins did said servers (or the anonymous techies who slave to tend them in the dark bowels of Castle Seed) commit to deserve this digital torment?
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:36 PM
Fr. J needs a world history course, taught in a real school.
Posted by: Eris | July 24, 2008 5:36 PM
Bravo Dr. Myers!
If I had a "host" I'd join you in tossing it in the trash. As it is, I will settle for eating a hotdog bun.
Cheers!
Posted by: dubiquiabs | July 24, 2008 5:39 PM
@ #620
Why not?
BTW, well done, PZM
Posted by: Jeff Knapp | July 24, 2008 5:39 PM
Oh, btw PZ. Thank You! You handled this perfectly. The symbolism was wonderful. You are a natural storyteller - as all good teachers ultimately are.
Posted by: Skeeve | July 24, 2008 5:39 PM
@145
"Hell laughed indeed.Did God hurt? I'm sure God wouldn't burn in hell, but you have chosen to be. hahahahahaha you are not posting my comment, huh....where's your son tonite?
Posted by: e.citizen | July 24, 2008 2:32 PM "
Only took 145 comments for a threat against PZs son to appear.
Nutless freak.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 5:40 PM
An atheist just replied to me with, "So boo-fucking-hoo, you genocide-supporting prick."
Wow. You atheists are almost as hateful as Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist "Church" which goes around protesting at funerals.
Thank you for helping to strengthen my faith in Catholicism, as atheism clearly results in nothing but a hate-filled existence. I wouldn't want to live like that.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 5:40 PM
dina624 said: I think all catholics and Christians of good will need to pray for this poor man and take this as the sign of the times that it is that it is NOT finished, but the beginning of persecution of all people of faith, but in particular Catholics.
Let me fix that for you.
I think all catholics and Christians of good will need to pray for this poor man and take this as the sign of the times that it is that it is NOT finished, but the beginning of the RIDICULE of all people of faith, AND ALL RELIGIONS.
Ridicule is what you god nuts can expect for the rest of your pathetic lives. I wouldn't call ridicule "persecution", but you can call it anything you like. Just get used to it. Since 9/11/2001 being religious has become as disgraceful as being a racist. Your idiotic beliefs will never be respected again.
By the way, your "praying" is going to get ridiculed. Praying = talking to yourself = a mental illness.
Posted by: dina624 | July 24, 2008 5:41 PM
I think all catholics and Christians of good will need to pray for this poor man and take this as the sign of the times that it is that it is NOT finished, but the beginning of persecution of all people of faith, but in particular Catholics.
Hitler may have first come for the communists, and finished with the Jews, but in America, in the west,they are starting with anyone who stands against the emerging Culture of Death, and quit frankly....only the Catholic church truly stands against them.
So it begins.
d~
Posted by: Mena | July 24, 2008 5:41 PM
Alas, Donahue is still being an attention whore. Whore somewhere else, ok? Somewhere where people are actually getting hurt or are going hungry perhaps?
Posted by: Barron | July 24, 2008 5:41 PM
I just can't get over how the damage to the books really bugs me. Especially a hardcover book (religious, science, politics, fiction whatever). I am shamed by my lack of irreverence.
Won't someone think of the book binders!
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 5:42 PM
other Nicole: "All in all, the gesture was as pointless as a man shitting in his own yard - it might be unsightly to the neighbors but the stink is yours alone to behold."
You've got the part about rights down, but I don't agree with your quote above. It DOES make a difference to people who are on the fence with losing their faith. It does make them sit up and say, "wait, I believed what? Hmm, maybe that is a bit silly." Having been in that situation myself once, such an example would have been helpful in looking at things rationally, rather than being morally torn between tradition and reason.
BTW, if you are Catholic, and I am atheist, does that make me Evil Nicole? And if so, do I have to grow a goatee?
Posted by: X | July 24, 2008 5:42 PM
Haw Haw! - Jack T. Chick
Posted by: JoJo | July 24, 2008 5:42 PM
I guess that makes us even, because for an alleged priest and supposed college graduate you're very stupid yourself. Plus you're a patronizing, pompous prig.
Thanks for proving you're a patronizing, pompous prig.Why don't you do some reading yourself. Geoffrey Parker. The Thirty Years' War. London: Routledge and Kegan Paul, 1984. You might learn about how in the 17th Century your pet religion helped kill about 1/3 of the population of what's now Germany and the Czech Republic.
Whereas you disgrace yourself continually by being a patronizing, pompous prig.Posted by: Bostonian | July 24, 2008 5:42 PM
Well-written and thorough. This blog post should be required reading.
You might want to consider collecting some of these moments in book form, PZ. I hear there's something of a market these days for so-called "New Athiest" literature and a collection of some of your better rants (especially this one) would be excellent in dead-tree form.
I think I have to read this again ...
Posted by: mothwentbad | July 24, 2008 5:42 PM
Oh, man. Citing wikipedia? That's adding insult to injury.
I wonder if the Conservapedia article starts with the 21st century? Or maybe it goes back to the 13th century, but adds on, "Well yeah, but Stalin was the worst ever"?
Posted by: Ambrose | July 24, 2008 5:43 PM
I just spent a day escorting a priest who grew up in the former Soviet Union and now is back there serving the post-Soviet Catholics. He personally knew martyrs for the faith at the hands of the Soviet atheists, people who died in the gulags of the Soviet Union. Your intolerance seems to have much in common with that state atheism. Religion is to be exterminated, beginning with its ideas and symbols.
It is well and good to condemn theocratic societies of the past, no one except the Moslem extremists believe in them today anyway, but I would not want to live in an atheocratic society with men such as yourself in charge. Trampling the host as a mark of contempt is a very short distance from destroying houses of worship (as the Nazis and Communists did, and the Chinese communists still do) and ultimately killing believers, as still occurs in China, Sudan and many other places. If we are only the product of evolution, why not? Survival of the fittest would permit the fit to destroy the weak. Why not impose your lack of belief on others? You have already shown yourself capable of it in principle, by the thorough and absolute contempt you have shown for the opinions and symbols of others.
Enjoy your fifteen minites of fame, professor. When it is over you will return to being nothing, and I presume you take that as a dictum. "Sit transit gloria mundi."
Posted by: Thomas J. Theobald | July 24, 2008 5:43 PM
AHHHHH!!!! My hands!!!! AHHH! You stabbed a rusty nail through my...
Oh wait, never mind, it's a cracker, not my hand. Sorry, false alarm, my bad ).
T
Posted by: Dave UH | July 24, 2008 5:43 PM
I made a short video of your desecration "Trash can" picture PZ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wdxmjl-EjGU
Posted by: Tenure | July 24, 2008 5:43 PM
I'm catholic. I don't have the time to read your long dissertation, but my thought is that I bet you wouldn't have had the cajones to do what you did or have done or are going to do, if you didn't have tenure.
Posted by: TrueSceptic | July 24, 2008 5:44 PM
As always, Pharyngula is a great read.
For anyone interested in more discussion on the absurdities of religion, I'd like to plug http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php
In particular, read the brilliant and amusing series of posts by kcrady at http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/forums/index.php?topic=23.0
Posted by: Randy Stimpson aka Intelligent Designer | July 24, 2008 5:44 PM
PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???
Posted by: Scott P. | July 24, 2008 5:44 PM
"Nobody has to believe it is the body of Christ for the act of consecration is a public act perfomed by a Catholic priest."
It isn't public in the Orthodox church. Or doesn't that count?
Posted by: dina624 | July 24, 2008 5:44 PM
The great desecration?
He calls what he has done 'the great desecration'.
He took a host from a catholic Mass and desecrated it.
>Christ have mercy
But he is a creature of pride. He doesn't know the humble God of the universe who he seeks to desecrate.
This God who would rush to his side in a New York minute if he would but ask.
Certainly this is outrageous...but as far as desecrations committed by this man, I would hardly call it the greatest. His life is filled with desecrations, small and great...this is simply the most public one.
No one becomes as Godless, and amoral as this human being with out first completely and ruthlessly desecrating his own soul beyond recognition of what it first was, the image of God...beautiful and pure.
Now, he stand, with a corpse for a soul...and dares to call what he did to a Holy God who in spite of what HE did is still Holy and incorrupt...and filled with loving longing for this man soul...
No...the great desecration is that this man is doing all he can to throw himself into hell, and that breaks the heart of God.
You poor poor man.
d~
Posted by: Logicel | July 24, 2008 5:45 PM
Mr. J (Mr because I have a father already) is trying real hard to persuade himself that PZ and commenters here hate people who happen to be Catholics, by equating ridicule with hatred. The pathetic jerk baits and switchs so egregiously that it must be a miracle that the fool hasn't collapsed in a tizzy of dizziness yet.
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 5:46 PM
If I may misquote 'The West Wing': "if they're spamming you with papal encyclicals you know you must be doing something right". May FSM bless you PZ, a masterly monograph.
Posted by: Bill | July 24, 2008 5:46 PM
I'll be drinking a beer in honor of your brilliant post tonight, PZ. But, then again, I was going to be drinking a beer tonight anyway.
Posted by: Jenny Z | July 24, 2008 5:46 PM
God have mercy on you, and us all.
If you're so uncaring, why do this? Your lack of respect for other people who do no harm to you us saddening. I'm sorry you have to be so angry.
Posted by: Docwazoo | July 24, 2008 5:46 PM
Thanks for the good work PZ. Now I only wish you would have thrown something Jewish out with the trash as well.
Posted by: Skippy the Skeptic | July 24, 2008 5:47 PM
Nicely done, PZ.
Posted by: SnarkFish | July 24, 2008 5:47 PM
would Jesus forgive PZ Myers?
quit being hypocritical to your faith theists
and to PZ, i applaud you - i would have put a tiny crown of thorns on it. is that evil?
Posted by: Jody | July 24, 2008 5:47 PM
I've been avoiding commenting in these threads because I know what a headache they've been causing you, PZ.
I doubt you'll even be reading this, as it is just one of what will be thousands of posts, I'm sure.
But I do have to say: well written, and well done.
Posted by: jamie | July 24, 2008 5:47 PM
man all this stuff about catholics prosecuting jews is so 'constantines sword' (great book and movie; check it out guys).
somewhere meatloaf is crying while singing 'is nothing sacred anymore'.
Posted by: Calladus | July 24, 2008 5:48 PM
Wow. My irony meter exploded at this point.
I'll tell you what, ya'll come let me know when the Catholics stop going coo-coo for crackers in the comments. Until then, I'll just stick to reading PZ's posts - where the level of insanity tends toward zero.
You know, I used to think that religion made people hateful, inflexible, and crazy. And now... not much different.
Posted by: MicroZealous | July 24, 2008 5:48 PM
re #930. Take heart from this verse:
He spoke unto his believers, unto his believers he spake thusly: Never shalt I give thee up, Never shalt thee be let down. Neither wilt I run around and desert thee. Never shalt I make thee cry, nor unto thee say goodbye, never shalt I tell thee a lie and hurt thee. (Rich. 7:14)
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 5:48 PM
And thank you for helping to strengthen my confidence in atheism, as christianity clearly results in nothing but a hate-filled, irrational, and time-squandering existence. I wouldn't want others to live like that.
Posted by: NovemberRomeo | July 24, 2008 5:49 PM
Is that it? No super plan to construct a Darth Star and destroy planets? Awww...
Very well written and point well made! As usual.
Posted by: Baba | July 24, 2008 5:49 PM
Wow, all you atheists are so simple-mindedly easy to entertain. I'm laughing at your adolescent celebrations because the irony of PZ's sermon is lost on you......
Your Lord and Master even admits to being incapable of coming up with an original desecration idea - he lifted the idea to "stab the host" from an old woodcut. What a revolutionary!!!!!!!
From the few photos I've seen of the Prophet PZ I'm surprised there weren't the remains of a Big Mac, biggie fries and extra large diet coke in the trash can. Wait, maybe that's why he looks the way he does in his photos.
Posted by: Voltaire | July 24, 2008 5:49 PM
PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???
=======
Yes! You get it!
Except, something tells me you don't.
Posted by: Neural T | July 24, 2008 5:49 PM
Best. Pharyngula. Post. Ever.
I'm glad you spent time to put the whole affair into context with the historical rantings and lunacy surrounding the Host.
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 5:50 PM
I forsee a future in which Host Tragedies are once again produced. But this time, they'll be high budget affairs with Mel Gibson directing them.
I wonder who will be cast as PZ?
Posted by: Slaughter | July 24, 2008 5:51 PM
Randy Stimpson said: PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???
That above all! If you can scientifically demonstrate the weaknesses in evolution, by all means do so. PZ has shown the weakness in the wafe-as-body-of-Christ argument.
And by the way, PZ, Styrofoam actually tastes better than the wafers. Then again, maybe Lutheran wafers don't taste as good as Roman Catholic ones. I think I'd desecrate one with some peanut butter and jelly.
Posted by: Jon | July 24, 2008 5:51 PM
...And yet somehow ranting about a wafer is more important, more 'Christian', than feeding the hungry, housing the homeless, and tending to the needy?
The reaction herein to PZ's act is justification of the act itself. Examine your own actions first. Remove the plank from your own eyes before you attend to the speck of dust you see here.
Hypocrites.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 5:51 PM
"PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???"
That's right. Demand evidence. Oh wait, that's what science already DOES!
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 5:52 PM
John Lewandowski (#913), you make a good point about bad language some people use (including myself), but don't forget that your religion has a long bloody history that includes genocide (see PZ's comments at the top of this thread). There's a big difference between an atheist calling a stupid asshole Catholic a "stupid asshole", and murdering people because they're weren't Catholics or because they showed disrespect for a cracker.
In my opinion, if Catholics had any moral values at all, they would throw out their religion because it has a history of atrocities. You should throw out your religion for the same reason Muslims should throw out their religion. What decent person would want to be associated with so much terrorism, including both Catholic and Muslim terrorism.
Posted by: JohnW | July 24, 2008 5:53 PM
Randy @928:
PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???
Yes, of course. Evolution is not sacred. It's merely the best explanation we have for the diversity of life on Earth. Nothing else comes close to matching its explanatory and predictive power.
How do we know? By questioning it.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 5:53 PM
Fixed.
Posted by: Richard Dawkins | July 24, 2008 5:53 PM
Congratulations, PZ, on an eloquent gesture. And thank you for including the pages from The God Delusion. It's only a book.
If I had any doubts about the rightness of what you did, they were dispelled by reading the fatuous, pathetic, ignominious, abjectly stupid protests of Catholics writing in protest. Either they really believe the wafer is Jesus, in which case they are idiots. Or they don't, in which case they are hypocritical hysterics. Either way, they deserve to be insulted. Congratulations on doing so.
Bravo PZ.
Richard
Posted by: Roger | July 24, 2008 5:54 PM
PZ. Just wanted to say that since "crackergate" began, I have been a lurker, just reading and generally enjoying the comments (yes, I have read EVERY SINGLE COMMENT !!). As an Atheist, I was all for your actions, but was a little concerned that you might actually do something that would be denegrating to the "atheist movement" (for want of a better phrase).
I apologize, totally, sincerely and unreservedly. I shouldn't have underestimated your intelligence - what you have done his is absolutely and totally perfect, and illustrates your point with a clarity that, frankly, deserves a far greater audience than even this amazingly popular blog will get. Is there enough comments and emails for "Crackergate - the book" ?
As commenter number 43 said - this is the first time I've applauded a blog entry. Well done, sir. You have given all sane people something to be rejoice in.
Rog
Posted by: Crackerophile | July 24, 2008 5:54 PM
I'm having sex with a cracker RIGHT NOW...
...
...
...
*whew*
Finished
Posted by: Dan Dangerously | July 24, 2008 5:54 PM
/standing ovation
Posted by: Meredith | July 24, 2008 5:54 PM
This is an incredible post you have made here. Thank you.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 5:55 PM
This is not even CLOSE to over. This has barely started. I hope you are prepared for the storm that this will cause.
Posted by: Arno | July 24, 2008 5:55 PM
Absolutely brilliant speech, PZ.
And you were right: the cracker got exactly what it deserved - a crack, a fizzle and a puff of logic, not unlike God in the Babelfish argument.
The speech alone is worth more than the entire cracker.
Well done :)
Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 24, 2008 5:55 PM
Well, PZ, I have to give you a load of credit for having some awful big cojones.
Personally, I'm just going to eat some popcorn and watch the drama unfold.
Posted by: sandi | July 24, 2008 5:56 PM
Kudos to Bill Donahue--go get him, Tiger! Donahue's analogies were great. Would a University stand for it if one of its professors donned a white hood, burned a cross on his front lawn, said "I hate Niggers", and posted that film on the Internet? No. The University would fire him. Would a University stand for it if one of its professors posted a picture of himself wearing a swastika t-shirt with "Jews Suck" emblazoned thereon, ripping a Torah, and placing it in the trash bin with a side of ham? No. The University would fire him. It's time to treat Catholics with the same respect. Fire the bum!!! Myers didn't keep his hatred and bigotry to himself--he posted it on the Internet for all the world to see. That made it the University's business; that made it fair game in terms of firing him. Who wants such an immature bigot teaching our students? I'd be willing to guess that he subtly or not-so-subtly carries over his prejudices into the classroom. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he mocks Catholics and other Christians in his classroom. (Heck, I heard at least 3 public school teachers insult Catholics during classtime when I was a kid.) Or perhaps he gives his Catholic students lower grades when they stand up for their religion? We just don't know. The bottom line is, a puerile, adolescent, hate-filled bigot should not hold a position as a professor at any reputable University. I call on the students to boycott his classes, the teachers to yell for his resignation, and the University to fire him. And to all his dumb-ass groupies on this website, you should recognize that the Catholic Church is the single largest charitable provider in the WORLD. Don't discount the amazing love and kindness the Church shows the world each day simply because a handful of homosexual priests broke their vows. The VAST majority of priests have remained faithful to their vows and have sacrificed their lives to help other people. I'm wasting my breath, though. Closed-minded bigots will never change.
Posted by: Tom Morris | July 24, 2008 5:56 PM
I'll echo Professor Dawkins in giving a "Huzzah!" for blasphemy and desecration.
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 5:58 PM
Myers: Thanks for giving us your take on the Year 1215. Did you know we're now in the year 2008? Maybe you didn't get the memo. If I follow your "logic" correctly, the Catholic Church did a few things you didn't like in the year 1215, so you feel justified today in desecrating Catholic property and intentionally baiting Catholics? Talk about holding a grudge. I think society in general was a little rough in the middle ages--not just the Catholic Church. I think people have gotten much more civilized over the centuries. Most of us have, anyway. You're obviously still a brutish, uncivilized, dumb ass. If we follow your analogy, any non-Christians (including atheists) who committed brutal acts in the year 1215 or otherwise should be punished today--in 2008. Wow, you just set yourself up!
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 6:00 PM
Did you not know that professors deem themselves God, but hey I would like to see and I mean any walk on water. Here is a quote from the Bible 'Jesus Christs own words unless you eat the flesh of the son of man and drink his blood you shall not have life in you, and he that eats my flesh and drinks my blood hath life everlasting and I will raise them up on the last day. The masses left all except the Apostles and when he said won't you leave too? They answered to who shall we go Lord you have the words of eternal life. Now Daniel when the daily sacrifice which is offered up throughout the world from the coming up to the setting of the sun is cancelled, Pray tell who is offering up the Daily sacrifice from the coming up to the setting of the sun? The Catholic Church.
Posted by: Waltherian Succession | July 24, 2008 6:00 PM
Nice work on the not reading things, Sandi at #964. Check out #836, dimbulb.
Posted by: Baba | July 24, 2008 6:01 PM
And a sadly over-rated attempt at bad philosophy.
Posted by: Thethyme | July 24, 2008 6:01 PM
Hahaha Donahue God's needs science to protect him he can be taken down by tetanus
Posted by: Zaphod | July 24, 2008 6:01 PM
sandi, sandi, sandi, you ignorant, hyperventilating sl**, there is no hatred involved because nobody outside your fellow cultists believes there's anything magical about some stupid effing cracker.
Get over it.
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 6:01 PM
I'm trying to figure out whether it's adorable or horrifying that you think there was such a thing as non-Catholic segment of society in the European Dark Ages.Posted by: chancelikely | July 24, 2008 6:02 PM
Baba 967: You're right, it is "a sadly over-rated attempt at bad philosophy". It's pretty good as good philosophy, though.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 6:02 PM
The fake Fr J wrote.....
__________________________________________
Rayven, why are you unconcerned with the fact that not all religions are the same? In fact Catholicism is very different from fundamentalist baptist. BUT you insist on acting as if we were all the same. You bring up incidents from a thousand years ago and act as if it is current. Then you object when we point out atheist misbehavior from yesterday. You claim that is just individuals who happen to be atheists. If I claimed that about us you would object. Atheism is a belief and cannot be proven objectively. It has consequences and we have seen them. They are unpleasant. Are you not disturbed by the bigotry expressed here? I am right. It is a bit forthright for some, but you do think that way about us. When I see atheists objecting to the incredibly foul language, insults, bigotry etc. that I see here then you can lecture me on ethics.
We are going in circles folks. It is been proven scientifically right before my eyes that atheists are indeed bigoted and hateful towards religious people. Just read their posts. Myers has created animosity and pain. Some of you like that and therefore prove my point. He is a sick sad little man and so are his worshipers. Pax
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 5:33 PM
__________________________________________
First of all, please quote where I said those things. I didn't actually say them? Hmmmmmmm
So, even after I made a clear point you still think all Atheists think with one mind? Guess what? We don't. My views to not represent anyone other than ME ME ME ME. Likewise, someone else's views do not represent me, they represent THEM THEM THEM THEM. I know it's terribly hard for you to grasp, since you've been brainwashed to think that all catholics think with one brain, but Atheist do not all think alike. Some of us even hate each other.
You haven't a clue what my feelings are about the various religions beyond what tiny bit I have posted in these threads. I do not feel all religious people are dangerous or abusive, just some of them. I do not feel all religions are created equal, but I do lump Abrahamic religions together because they came form the same place. Then ,I segregate them into the splinters they became. To be honest, it is my opinion that catholicism is one of the most vile of the offspring, but that is just my opinion and I won't debate the issue. You are free to disagree.
To stomp on another absurdity, there was no "Atheist misbehavior" in recent times, as has also been pointed out a hundred times over. There may have been a few evil people who claimed to be Atheists who did awful things down through history, but it wasn't sanctioned by the great tribe of Atheism...because there's not one! What religious organizations have done though,is to sanction evil acts and as a religious body help to perpetrate atrocities. The Catholic church has corenered the market on sanctioning atrocities and helping to carry out genocide. It was not one Catholic who did an evil thing, or one despot who happened to be catholic...it was a religious organization made of of millions of people who, as a unified force, sanctioned and carried out evil. You choose to be part of this organization and are responsible for what it has done/will do. I am not part of any Church of Atheism and therefor what some other Atheist does is not a reflection upon me. We are individuals who don't believe in deities, that's it.
So please stop trying to correlate Atheism with what some evil despot did...Atheism had nothing to do with it and I have no connection what-so-ever to some evil nutjob from the past who happened to have been an Atheist. No more than I have a connection to some evil (or good) person from the past who happened to have green eyes.
Try again to grasp that. C'mon, you can do it.
Posted by: Rick | July 24, 2008 6:02 PM
Throw the rest of the crackers into a duck pond. St. Francis may very likely approve, and betide blessings upon your land.
Posted by: Jon | July 24, 2008 6:03 PM
Oh, and does anyone else find it ironic that the Atheists here actually care what fate the cracker met?
Given that PZ's entire point was that "it's just a cracker, people!!", the disposal of this cracker shouldn't be celebrated any more than the disposal of any other food remains.
If you celebrate this as a triumph, you grant the object power. You acknowledge that it has special status, and that the point of this is to rile the religous, rather than deny them any special status. You become as much of a hypocrite as the Catholics who fail to turn the other cheek.
By all means commend the original (rather excellent) post. Don't however commend the act which is ultimately meaningless and utterly without consequence.
Posted by: Johnny Coelacanth | July 24, 2008 6:03 PM
"Would I post here if I cared what atheists thought of me?"
Then what are you doing here? You desperately care what atheists think of you, or you wouldn't expend so much effort in trying to change the way they think. Your faith is as weak as your arguments.
Posted by: tsg | July 24, 2008 6:03 PM
Am I the only one who sees the irony in a group of people who worship a man who was condemned to death for blasphemy condemning another man for the same thing?
And lest some confuse this statement as comparing PZ Myers to Jesus Christ, I'm not. I'm comparing Catholics to the Roman Empire.
Posted by: Greg Esres | July 24, 2008 6:03 PM
Yes, but the Catholic Church was established by God and therefore should be held to higher standards than the prevailing society. In fact, we should expect perfection. On the other hand, if the Catholic Church was a man-made creation, then it's reasonable to expect that it reflects the society at large.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 6:05 PM
A woodcut from Brussels.
"In 1370 in Brussels, the charge of host desecration, long celebrated in a special fest and depicted in artistic relics in the Church of St. Gudule, led to the extermination of the Jews of the city."
For the sake of a cracker, you Catholics massacred real live people.
Posted by: Draconiz | July 24, 2008 6:05 PM
Dustin,
There are Non-Catholics segments in the middle ages (Cathar and Pagans spring to mind). Problem is they all got slaughtered by the cracker worshipers.
Nuff said
Posted by: JRQ | July 24, 2008 6:05 PM
Words can hardly express how ridiculous the whole situation is.
Why on earth am I supposed to care that catholics are offended by, of all things, host desecration, something that materially affects nobody, while the Catholic Church persists in its opposition to birth control, divorce, abortion, stem cell research, all of which are irrational, deeply immoral, and DO materially affect me?
Keep it up Catholics. You've lost the moral high ground so thoroughly, pretty much any complaint you make lapses immediately into self-parody. You all can earn our respect by cleaning up your act and joining us here in the real world.
Posted by: N.K. | July 24, 2008 6:06 PM
AHAHAHA.
THE FIRST COMMENT IS A, "MAY GOD HAVE MERCY ON YOUR SOUL."
Also, #964 needs to read more than the first few paragraphs. And should also probably note the death threats PZ has been receiving from COWARDLY BIGOTED CATHOLICS in 2008.
I doubt observation and rational has ever been one of Sandi's strengths.
Posted by: La_voix_de_la_raison | July 24, 2008 6:06 PM
@ # 930 dina624,
I believe you should take the title, "the great desecration" to be sarcastic
Posted by: Skippy the Skeptic | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
Nicely done, PZ.
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
#972 Some of us even hate each other.
You seem to pretty much have the hate thing down
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
Did you also know that empty cans make the loudest noise? Clang Clang
Posted by: Gargilius | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
> virtually inedible crackers in my possession.
Have you tried maple sirup? I find that a lot of things that would be otherwise virtually inedible starts tasting reasonably good with maple sirup (that or spicy sauce depending on taste).
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
"Nobody has to believe it is the body of Christ for the act of consecration is a public act perfomed by a Catholic priest."
It isn't public in the Orthodox church. Or doesn't that count?
++++++++++++
Stupid question.
Here's a better one. How did he get that nail through the "cracker' without it fragmenting? The communion hots are very brittle as anyone familiar with them knows.
Looks like a big fake to me.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 6:08 PM
Good job, PZ! I wondered if it would be something as simple as throwing a stale cracker into the trash where it belongs.
I'm guessing some Catholic is going to claim a Eucharistic Miracle. They will rescue it from the trash and it will have been bleeding!!!! Then the blood will be analyzed but, alas, it will have been cow blood from the steak PZ had last night. Catholics will ignore that and claim it was type AB blood. Exactly the type of blood found on the shroud of Turin!!!
Yes, I have been following these threads too closely.
And, Pete Rooke, you are still a very disturbed person. Maybe you've been watching too many Hannibal Lecter movies?
Posted by: SomeGuyFromScotland | July 24, 2008 6:09 PM
You're an inspiration, PZ Myers.
Thank you.
Posted by: DaveR | July 24, 2008 6:09 PM
Bravo sir, bravo!
Posted by: Clayton | July 24, 2008 6:09 PM
Nothing must be held sacred.
So why is your opinion an exception to the rule that nothing is sacred?
That is some crazy, dogmatic hypocrisy you have going there...
Posted by: RipperStinger | July 24, 2008 6:10 PM
Wonder who will get post #1000
Thanks again for the Greasemonkey script!
Posted by: Johnny Coelacanth | July 24, 2008 6:10 PM
"How did he get that nail through the "cracker' without it fragmenting? The communion hots are very brittle"
I'm thinking one drop of water right in the center of Jesus, er the wafer would make it more accommodating of the nail.
Posted by: spurge | July 24, 2008 6:10 PM
TG
The only thing worse than being a troll is being a boring one.
Posted by: Tom Morris | July 24, 2008 6:11 PM
This is what I find amazing: a majority of the justices on the United States Supreme Court subscribe to this crackers theory.
Posted by: Rieux | July 24, 2008 6:11 PM
Just want to add my voice to the maddening throng--nice job, P.Z., even though I too am one of the group here who are irrationally disturbed by the image of pages torn out of books.
I'll get over it.
Posted by: Warren | July 24, 2008 6:11 PM
@ Clayton,
When did he say his opinion was to be held sacred? Dumbass.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:11 PM
BobC, when are you going to throw away your atheism because of what Mao did? Or do you deny that Mao was an atheist, just like the absurd claims that Hitler was a Catholic? Everyone remembers that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews, but everyone seems to forget about his 3 million Polish Catholic victims. Whoops?
In reality, Hitler was "raised Catholic" but rejected the vast majority of the teachings of the faith as he got older. Huh, just like many atheists! Fancy that.
By the way, here's an FYI for those who blame AIDS on the Catholic Church - if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 6:12 PM
Sandi,
You must have a very short attention span. The medieval mentality still exists. So far over this incident alone:
1. A college student getting death threats and possibility of expuslion from school.
2. A professor getting death threats and may get fired from his job. 3. And one of your own catholics got his wife fired from 1800flowers.com
It's over the same things as it was back in the middle ages. You may have not done anything wrong, but your fellow catholics have been doing it in the name of your faith.
Its obvious that it's not burning heretics at the stake or having people drawn and quartered for blasphemy, but those were times when catholicism at it's peak in power over governments and people. Do you want that back today?
Bill Donahue's job description parallels to a moder day grand inquisitor. If you don't believe me, then you haven't even entertained the idea in your head.
Posted by: NoChildsBehindLeft | July 24, 2008 6:12 PM
W00T 3 CHEERS FOR P.Z!
Posted by: Ice Farmer | July 24, 2008 6:12 PM
GREAT POST, PZ!
It has no comedic value what-so-ever. Completely spot on and well written. In a perfect world this would be a great thought and debate generator. I unfortunately know (not on faith) that this won't be the case. I hope you can increase your server capacity geometrically, you're gonna need it!
I'd like to thank all the religionists for coming out in true, hypocritical style (as always). Looking forward to reading more wackaloonery (sort of). Let's hope they remember, according to their books, that GOD is to be the judge.
I will continue to be a loyal reader, evolutionist, free thinker and good writing/blog supporter (especially for Pharyngula).
PZ, you have the support of many. The hate that this may bring you from others will only grow your voice louder and grant you the ability to reach more people.
Best wishes and total support,
Rob from Calgary, Alberta, Canada
P.S. This was a missed opportunity for a positive environmental impact. You should have recycled everything or at least recycled the nail and added the paper, coffee, banana, etc. to your back yard composter. If you don't have one, get one. Great for the garden and environment.
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 6:12 PM
Well PZ, from the looks of this crowd and your actions, your creating a great world for your son to live in- you should be a proud father- quite the role model you are- bravo
Posted by: Andrew | July 24, 2008 6:12 PM
Very easy to use profanity to mock what you do not understand and not consider any other perspective. It just doesn't show you to be a person of good will. Our creator wishes all humanity to be people of good will.
As for your comment "If I wanted to be an evil hypocrite, I'd drape myself in expensive jeweled robes and live in an ornate palace while telling all my followers that poverty is a virtue. ", you should consider another perspective:
http://www.rev-know-it-all.com/2008/2008---01-13.html
Posted by: Pekka Pekuri | July 24, 2008 6:13 PM
1000GET
Posted by: Matlatzinca | July 24, 2008 6:13 PM
Great picture. Can we have a high-res image if we want to make it our desktop?
Now if I only hold out for a few minutes, I might be post #1000...
Posted by: E.V. | July 24, 2008 6:14 PM
Boy is my arm tired from playing WHACK-A-TROLL and GOD-BOP-IT.
Posted by: lolgaggins | July 24, 2008 6:14 PM
How about a Jesus joke to lighten things up?
Q: What's the difference between Jesus and a painting?
A: It only takes one nail to hang a painting.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 6:14 PM
"Here's a better one. How did he get that nail through the "cracker' without it fragmenting? The communion hots are very brittle as anyone familiar with them knows."
From what I remember (long time ago), they're actually somewhat pliable. When I put one in my mouth and bit down with my molars*, it wouldn't shear in two, at least not without being forced by the tongue. I think if you had a decently sharp nail and used a twisting motion, you could get a hole in there. But I suppose YWMV.
I also wish PZ had put the wafer against the coffee grounds so that it would stand out more. I had to look a couple times before I found it.
* I was never taught not to chew it as some other commenters here have attested, if I had been, I think I may have found atheism even sooner.
Posted by: Dutch Vigilante | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
I just like to say here that in the thread "Fresh thread" I hoped he desecrated the god delusion...
Quite predictable, in the end. Too bad it was though, I could use James Randi's 1.000.000 dollars.
Posted by: Clayton | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
Warren,
He said "must". That word is the imperative. The question is: an imperative for who? and why?
How can you have an imperative when you deny a source for imperatives?
Nothing must be held sacred is a creed. It's a religious statement. But he can't have it both ways... Religious screeds against religion are inherently hypocritical...
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
1215 was the year that set up all the massacres and expulsions in the centuries that followed.
And despite the fact that "people have gotten much more civilized over the centuries", Catholics are STILL ACTING CRAZY OVER A CRACKER. YOU are doing it RIGHT NOW.
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
Randy Stimpson, "Even evolution ???"
Of course, and if you are honest, the exceptional and massive level of evidence will persuade you that evolution did, is, and will continue to occur.
-----
In after Dawkins and 1000 get
Posted by: Coffeesh0p | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
Thy will be done!
1Nil.
Posted by: Chemist | July 24, 2008 6:15 PM
Have perused 300+ comments re: this thread and have not seen this suggestion (forgive if it has already been made):
Slugs just LOVE banana peels and coffee grounds in any good organic garden. Prefer these foodstuffs over your ripening tomatoes on the vines above. Not knowing their liking for "crackers", let's do an experiment in the best tradition of Chas. Darwin:
go out tonight and collect several slugs (the slimey kind, not the lead kind) and put em in with the accumulated items in the trash can. See what is left after, say, 24 hours or so. Do they prefer godly flesh, or not? Do they get transfigured? Resurrected?
Who knows, there might be a phD project in here someplace.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 6:16 PM
"By the way, here's an FYI for those who blame AIDS on the Catholic Church - if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy."
Seriously?!?!? I call Poe. I can't tell if it's real...
My brain asploded. I'm getting off this thread and doing some real science. Seriously.
Posted by: Tom L | July 24, 2008 6:16 PM
In other words, PZ's little gesture is utterly empty, meaningless, and ineffectual, right? No harm done to God and/or Jesus, correct? We all agree on this, yes?
So what the hell are all of you Catholics so up in arms over, then?
Posted by: Mike | July 24, 2008 6:16 PM
JRQ 980 actually the Catholic opposition to what you mention in your post is the moral highground.
"opposition to birth control, divorce, abortion, stem cell research, all of which are irrational, deeply immoral, and DO materially affect me?"
Posted by: Justin | July 24, 2008 6:16 PM
I cannot believe you would have the sinful unholiness to desecrate a copy of the majestic writings of Professor Richard Dawkins, may Google watch over him and keep him informed forever.
We're gonna come after you, boy. You don't mess with atheists.
We're gonna swing around there to your house, phoning first to see if you're home or entertaining company. We're gonna walk right up to your door and ring your doorbell. Twice. Maybe three times, if we think that maybe you were out back and didn't hear it the first couple of times. A knocking might be deemed appropriate.
When you answer that door, if you dare, we're going to direct strongly toned words at you. We're going to be stern. We're going to invite you to a debate on the issue.
That's right.
A debate.
We'll go there.
And then afterward if you are not very convincing we will sit around having ice cream and coffee discussing how silly you are and you will not be invited!!!
So watch it, buddy. Watch it.
Posted by: E.V. | July 24, 2008 6:16 PM
Remember: Love the theist, hate the theism!
Posted by: NPD | July 24, 2008 6:17 PM
Well done, PZ! (Just adding my 2 cents to the chorus of cheers)
Hitler may have first come for the communists, and finished with the Jews, but in America, in the west,they are starting with anyone who stands against the emerging Culture of Death, and quit frankly....only the Catholic church truly stands against them.
"First they came for the crackers, and I said nothing since I was not a cracker..." How ironic, since the Catholic Church said nothing against Hitler when he came for the Jews, Communists, trade unionists, gays...
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 6:17 PM
Hey PZ- this is how it works- you push the rock over the ledge and let everyone else deal with the damage. You just sit back and read huh? COWARD-
Posted by: Tatarize | July 24, 2008 6:17 PM
Feel free to tear up a bit of the God Delusion. Just don't mess with the Origin of the Species. The book of Origin is sacred. Hallowed are the Ori.
Posted by: mwb | July 24, 2008 6:17 PM
I think one of the interesting consequences of the hierarchical attribution of culpability for wrongdoing is that it engenders such pointless disputes over the religiosity of a handful of people in the 20th century.
Whether Hitler was a follower of a zombie, Thor, or rather disavowed the supernatural altogether does little to place responsibility for genocide on materialism. Even if the whole exercise wasn't motivated by some weak appeal to the consequence of belief, Hitler himself didn't commit the Holocaust: it was an effort by innumerable inhabitants from multiple nations with different backgrounds, the majority of which were superstitious people.
I suppose it is inconvenient for the mages among us that the very defects of human cognition that permit them to make appeals to popularity when justifying their cantrips, are the same defects that warrant no surprise when it is realized that activities that require a large number of participants are made up of the same sort.
Of course the point of the exercise itself is misguided, because such high-level activities as the eradication of subpopulations of humanity do not follow from materialism, and even if they did, it would not change nature. As if we could stare down an abyss if we wanted to!
The whole enterprise serves to obfuscate societal defects with some inane cosmic scoreboard. As if we shouldn't expect ever-higher death tolls in the presence of orders of magnitude differences in populations when the same barbaric tribalism plays itself out in subsequent generation that have populations orders of magnitude larger--populations that are dependent upon elaborate technologies to even maintain. If some bumbling materialists or bumbling supernaturalists disrupt the precarious infrastructure that enables billions of humans to coexist on this planet with a grand plan for homogeneity, you can expect your scorecard to jump drastically in one direction or other, and with the number of you with imaginary friends outnumbering those without, I would not want to be playing at such games.
However it is the readiness to bestow great powers and authority on the mythical hero and villain that finds us constantly arguing over minutiae to divine the true thoughts of one or two people, who ultimately serve as little more than icons. You shouldn't care if Hitler talked to voices in his head, but rather why we humans are such conformist dipshits eager to be ruled over by kings; imaginary or otherwise.
Posted by: en zeero zeero ate fife fore wun ate zeero tee | July 24, 2008 6:18 PM
I find it hilarious that the religionutters continue to claim that their crazy ideas should be given respect and reverence when they accord any ideas not their own (and those that hold them) with hatred, violence and derision. Yet they claim to be unbiased, unbigoted and caring for all people. Ah the bigotry and malice of the religious fanatic, a wonder to behold for the sheer irrationality of it.
Kudos PZ, I think it's about time that people in America stopped walking on eggshells to preserve the opinions of those that hate anyone that does not subscribe to their own ignominious cult.
I've always found it profoundly disappointing that so many people are unwilling to have the courage and personal integrity to distance themselves from such hateful, violent cults, and instead embrace the much more difficult path of wonder that lies in exploring the vast and innumerable intricacies of the natural world (accessible only by reasoned and intelligent thought, rather than pathetic ancient mythologies).
Incredibly amusing is the fact that most of them fundamentally do not understand anything about ethics, or would immediately distance themselves from inherently unethical organizations such as the Catholic Church and other such cults.
Posted by: Cheezits | July 24, 2008 6:18 PM
Up till now, I think I had the idea in the back of my mind that most Catholics regarded the transubstantiation doctrine as just one of those silly things that the church teaches, that they don't really believe but they go along with it so as not to offend their grandmother. And maybe most of them do feel that way, I don't know. But here we have supposedly adult people claiming with a presumably straight face that they actually believe "as a Catholic" that the wafer really is somehow transformed into the Body of Our Lord by some Mystery that they can only Accept On Faith and therefore it is up to the rest of us to respect that belief. How the heck am I supposed to respect such a ludicrous belief? The best I can hope to do is keep my mouth shut when I am around Catholics on their own turf, and stay out of their churches. (I have no plan to join the teeming throngs of thousands of atheists who are going to descend upon every Mass to desecrate their Holy Objects.) Hopefully that's all they ask.
But if I catch anyone being rude to a Cheez-it there will be hell to pay!
Posted by: anthropic | July 24, 2008 6:18 PM
Rayven Alandria@972,
Very well said.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
Nicole @1015
No, it's real. I went to a very, very conservative Catholic school and that is exactly what I was taught. See, if every one followed the teachings of the catholic church, the world would be a happy place with rainbows and butterflies and unicorns prancing all around.
Posted by: CalGeorge | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
There once was a silly old cracker
That had some Catholic backers
It symbolized flesh
Until PZ got fresh
Now it's munched on by atheist snackers.
Posted by: MRM | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
I have hope in spite of your actions. Us crazy cracker worshipping freaks and others like us are just going to continue outbreeding your ilk. So go ahead and spew your hatred and your desire that we hold nothing sacred. But we will continue to do so. And we will soon outnumber your kind.
Posted by: Skeeve | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
Rayven Alandria!!!! Long time no see! Sorry to see MajorBytes sell atheists.com to the Turkish hackers...but I'm working on something to fill the gap. Look to the old yahoo atheistsdotcom group to get my email addy and send me a line and I'll pass along what I'm up to.
Posted by: H.H. | July 24, 2008 6:20 PM
Not a single outraged Christian has so much as attempted to address the points laid out in PZ's essay, which pretty much makes their outrage impotent. Catholics: you have not been persecuted. You are not the victim of a hate crime. You have had your religion criticized; both verbally and in symbolic action, intelligently and with due consideration, and you have not responded with anything approaching a rational argument.
It's "salt of the Earth" sheep like you that have always been responsible for the greatest ruin. Even if Hitler was secretly an atheist, it was good Christian folk who carried out his orders. I hope you all take your false outrage, bruised vanity, substanceless whining, false piety, and medieval ignorance and seriously grow the fuck up. Learn to think for yourselves instead of feeling so sorry for yourselves. Have the strength to abandon superstition and stop confusing ignorance with knowledge. Ah, wasted words. If you had any salvageable sense you wouldn't be the ignorant masses that you are. The fact that you can't see you are deluded is what makes you so deluded.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 6:20 PM
#972 Some of us even hate each other.
You seem to pretty much have the hate thing down
Posted by: chicago | July 24, 2008 6:07 PM
_________________________________________
Yep, and some of us are quite honest about it. I don't run around claiming to love people and spout passive agressive shit like "I'll pray for you", when in truth I can't stand them.
I am full of hatred towards certain kinds of people. I don't see that as a negative trait. I respect your right to feel that it is a negative trait though. The world won't end if we disagree.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 6:20 PM
Thus spake Fr. J:
Yes, indeed. For a holocaust revisionist like you, I'd recommend Betrayal: German Churches and the Holocaust, by Ericksen and Heschel, and Hitler's Priests, by Kevin Spicer.Posted by: Observer | July 24, 2008 6:20 PM
I enjoy Fr. J's posts simply for the irony of reading a lecture about blasphemy from a man impersonating a priest.
Posted by: Hairhead | July 24, 2008 6:20 PM
BobC, when are you going to throw away your atheism because of what Mao did? Or do you deny that Mao was an atheist, just like the absurd claims that Hitler was a Catholic? Everyone remembers that Hitler murdered 6 million Jews, but everyone seems to forget about his 3 million Polish Catholic victims. Whoops?
To John L. @ 998
You said: In reality, Hitler was "raised Catholic" but rejected the vast majority of the teachings of the faith as he got older.
I say: Which teachings? Hitler professing Catholicism and Christianity to the end of his days.
You said: Huh, just like many atheists! Fancy that.
I say: Actually, many atheists rejected fewer of the teachings of the church than did Hitler; atheist community activists, atheists donating to the poor, atheists protectng the freedom of speech (a lot of times, the speech of religious persons). Fact is, you can't find any atheist who proclaims that his/her atheism allows mass murder and atrocity. You can't.
You said: By the way, here's an FYI for those who blame AIDS on the Catholic Church - if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy.
I say: If we all became Catholic, the thousands of buggering priests would continue to be protected by the hierarchy of the Church, and would spread AIDS to both male and female children.
John, I am the son of a minister, and your tone is hateful, your analogies specious, and your view of human nature far uglier than anything I have found promulgated by atheists.
But don't stop talking, whatever you do! Smarmy, self-righteous, lying religionists such as you do more for atheism than Harris, Dawkins, or Myers.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:21 PM
Yeah, have fun with that, or whatever. However, I doubt any reasonable court in the land would buy your claim that my calling you a 'prick' strengthened your support for a genocidal institution. The strength of your 'faith' is on your own head.
But I wouldn't go gloating about how clean my language is if I were you; after all, you do wash it out with your own blood-stained hands, do you not?
Posted by: Jeff | July 24, 2008 6:22 PM
I used to think stunts like this were cool. Then, I turned 12 and started to grow up. I think this is simply a childish fit and is unbecoming of a professor.
No one can know, with absolute certainty, whether or not God exists. Christians, Catholics, and Muslims take it on faith that he does. Atheists take it on faith that he doesn't exist and yet ridicule the faith of believers.
I agree that some have overreacted, but that is human nature. The death threats, if they have really been made, are uncalled for but then again, so was this stunt.
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 6:22 PM
Holy crap, don't you people work?! I'm sitting at my lab bench just doing my PCR, and look what happens! Over 1000 posts already and I've just noticed the post. Such a responsible grad student like myself has no hope of ever posting in a recognizable position on such an important and highly anticipated thread. Hum, maybe one day :)
Anyways, PZ, I am very impressed with your manner of desecration. I was really hoping you would throw in a copy/ page of the Origin of Species, or the God Delusion like you did. You made the perfect statement. I also found the banana peels quite fitting. You're a good man, and hopefully this will all be over for you soon enough!
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:24 PM
Nicole, do you atheists not value your intelligence? Then think about it.
-The Catholic Church teaches that nobody should ever have sex outside of marriage.
-AIDS became a pandemic because of promiscuous sexual behavior. Infected needles and blood transfusions were secondary causes of HIV infections which came about later on.
-Therefore, if nobody in the world was promiscuous, AIDS would only have claimed a tiny number of lives before finding itself without a human host and disappearing from the world.
Help fight AIDS - convert to Catholicism.
Posted by: Nicole | July 24, 2008 6:24 PM
Evil Nicole( ;)) says "It DOES make a difference to people who are on the fence with losing their faith. It does make them sit up and say, "wait, I believed what? Hmm, maybe that is a bit silly." Having been in that situation myself once, such an example would have been helpful in looking at things rationally, rather than being morally torn between tradition and reason."
I say: Conversely, Mister Meyers might have turned a few people towards Christianity just because they now think all atheists behave so monstrously towards anyone that lacks the same sense of 'there-is-no-god.'
When I showed my atheistic friends (and believe me I have them...living in the SF Bay Area, you can't throw a rock without hitting one) this blog, some said 'awesome,' while others still seemed disgusted by it all.
I mean okay, I get it. PZ believes it's all a crock of shit. Good on him but... why not just dismiss Christianity/Catholicism out of hand and go on about his atheistic day? Who exactly is he trying to convince, here? Is he even trying to convince anyone? If not, what is the purpose of it all other than exercising his right of free speech? For that matter, why is this getting so much press?
To all my fellow Catholics/Christians... I think we should choose our battles wisely. Hitting brick walls have never served to do any more than bloody your knuckles. Actually, that goes for Mister Meyers as well. If you even read this far, as a fellow human being, I advise that you choose your battles wisely.
Ah crud, this turned out to be much longer than I anticipated.
Evil Nicole also says: "BTW, if you are Catholic, and I am atheist, does that make me Evil Nicole? And if so, do I have to grow a goatee?"
I say: Can you sprout a goatee on demand? That'd be pretty wicked (pun intended!)...though you might wanna be careful - your growing of a full-on goatee might constitute a miracle. ;)
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 6:24 PM
The Church does not help AIDS epidemic at all, and abstinence-only does not work. Sexuality is hardwired in everyone.
Look at teen pregnancy rates in abstinence-only public curriculum states.
Look at pedophile priests.
A person who has never masturbated (which is condemned by most religions) is either lying or has psychological or physiological damage. You most likely have committed this sin as well.
Posted by: Longstreet63 | July 24, 2008 6:24 PM
Sandi @964
"If we follow your analogy, any non-Christians (including atheists) who committed brutal acts in the year 1215 or otherwise should be punished today--in 2008"
Sorry, but isn't that actually basic to Christianity? The punishment of everyone living for the sins of someone in the distant, mythological past?
Or, wait, is it the part about the human sacrifice 2000 years ago that secured eternal forgiveness for everyone everywhere for the sins of that original sinner?
But then, if that was the case, I don't see what fuss is being made, since if one believes that, then God has already pre-emptively forgiven everyone for everything, including any host desecration.
But that does complicate the idea of the eternal punishment in fire said to be awaiting almost everyone, despite the eternal forgiveness by human sacrifice for the sins of the originator and any and all others.
And of course, the part where the dead sacrifice came back to life, and will return to kill everyone in vengeance for it, which maybe explains why the sacrifice didn't take.
I'm a bit confused now. Should everyone be held responsible for their own actions or should some people be able to have another person punished to escape such responsibility?
I'm leaning to the first position, myself.
And by the way, if you can find anyone around who committed any crimes in 1215, best drive a stake through their hearts.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 6:25 PM
Hitler was baptised Catholic, took communion, and was confirmed. You believe those three "sacraments" left an indelible mark on his soul. By your own standard, he was a Catholic. Deal with it.Posted by: John Charles | July 24, 2008 6:25 PM
PZ handled this brilliantly, much better than I would have.
Adding the God Delusion was the perfect coda, and really drove home the point.
*applause*
Posted by: Robert | July 24, 2008 6:25 PM
Look, it's easy to prove that PZ Meyers did not, in fact, do this. The (offensive!) logic is as follows:
* PZ showed that he'd ripped out pages out of some books. This is book desecration. You know how else liked to desecrate books? Nazis! Ergo: PZ is a Nazi!
* Nazis forced Jews to wear special identification, as required as a result of the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215. Ergo: Nazis are good Catholics. Ergo: PZ is a good Catholic.
* No good Catholic would desecrate the Host in any way other than the church-approved method of mastication followed by exposure to digestive acids. Ergo: PZ did not actually desecrate the Host!
See? Simple logic. ;)
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 6:25 PM
TG
The only thing worse than being a troll is being a boring one.
++++++++++++
I am doing what the good scientist does - demanding empirical evidence that (in this case PZ's) claim is true, and evaluating what is put forward.
So far, it all looks like a huge fake. At least, that's the indication from the paucity of evidence - a suspicious photo and a YouTube video posted by some guy apparently in Britain who writes that "The cracker will be kept wrapped in a condom until the Catholic Church recognises the legitimacy of the Golden Rule." That's the guy PZ claims he got the "consecrated communion wafer" from. Somebody has no credibility in that pair, you'd agree.
No doubt that is boring to a true disciple willing to accept anything that is said by his authority.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:26 PM
You know you can still be infected with HIV through male to child oral and anal sex, right? Because obviously, converting to Catholicism has done nothing to stop that.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:27 PM
I agree, Tony, sexuality is definitely hard-wired into people. Good thing that the Catholic church isn't anti-sex!
It's just anti-fornication.
Help fight AIDS - convert to Catholicism.
Posted by: warren | July 24, 2008 6:28 PM
@brownian
zing.
Posted by: me | July 24, 2008 6:30 PM
Posted by: Sioux Laris | July 24, 2008 6:30 PM
Dear PZ,
Now, I'm pretty sure you'll never see this post as the thread approaches 1000, and that you'll likely be too busy to answer this question (no problem, if so!), but I was wondering if, as you performed the "desecration" of these unremarkable inanimate objects, what I call "my little angel of childish superstition" fretted impotently from some little corner of your mind about your act?
I don't mean that you had any qualms about this, but rather that a little bit of you actually still, childishly, "hoped to see the magic" - as if, as Richard Dawkins recalls in avoiding stepping on cracks while walking home from school as a child, important things depended solely upon your casual actions.
Just wondering.
Posted by: Dave Child | July 24, 2008 6:30 PM
Bravo, Mr Myers. You have done entirely the right thing. Crackers are evil anyway - cookies are the one true biscuit of salvation! Chocolate chip only, of course - the others are all evil.
Love the adding of The God Delusion to the pile. Thoroughly enjoyed reading it, but it's still, like the Koran (and probably the cracker too) only paper.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:30 PM
Brownian, raping children is against Catholic teaching. I said that the liberal Catholics would have to return to orthodoxy, didn't I?
Help fight AIDS - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism
Posted by: Agersomnia | July 24, 2008 6:31 PM
Well done!
So sad--- I arrived when there were 997 comments, but by the time I finished reading the entry it was faaaar after that. I hoped to get the #1000
This definitely increased web viewers to Pharyngula!
Posted by: JonathanL | July 24, 2008 6:31 PM
Or if everyone practiced safe sex outside of monogamous relationships and were tested regularly, AIDS wouldn't be nearly as big a problem. See my solution works without magic and ignorance.
Posted by: Cherl Hurley | July 24, 2008 6:31 PM
I think this is very sad. I cannot understand why someone who cares so little about a religion would have to take such drastic measures. You must be very hurt and angry but lucky for us Our Lord is all good and mercy. I will pray for your protection as I am sure that the evil one rejoices in you desecrating this eucharist. So may the heavenly angels surround you and yours at this time. Jesus pour your precious blood upon all those involved Amen!
Posted by: Che | July 24, 2008 6:32 PM
Damn PZ, you are a good writer. By the time I got to the end I was giggling with anticipation.
Posted by: Chemist | July 24, 2008 6:32 PM
Now, what was it that the Anti-Christ was supposed to do in his spare time???
This and associated threads should be in the running for some sort of participation award!
Anybody checked for fulminations from the Catholic League site yet?
Posted by: brandon | July 24, 2008 6:32 PM
if everyone in the world followed Catholic teaching on chastity, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to convert to Catholicism, and get all of the liberal Catholics to return to orthodoxy.
Jesus fucking Christ, you're dumb.
Posted by: cq | July 24, 2008 6:32 PM
You could have gotten a consecrated cracker and an unconsecrated cracker and nailed both of them. That would have driven the zealots even more insane. Which one is Jesus and which is just a cracker? If someone "rescued" the crackers from your trash, they would have to consecrate both just to be safe, then do whatever is done with consecrated crackers. But what happens when you try to turn the Body of Christ into the Body of Christ again? Bad things, I'll bet, bad things.
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 6:33 PM
John #965:
Visit Morris in winter and PZ will gladly demonstrate his walking on water mad skillz for you. Be sure to wrap up warm.
Martin
Posted by: Eli | July 24, 2008 6:33 PM
PZ, this is absolutely brilliant and it's so much better than I was hoping. It was classy, intelligent, and sincere. Bravo.
Posted by: Bill | July 24, 2008 6:33 PM
#1056, I honestly can't tell if that's sarcasm or not...
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:34 PM
Yawn. What about Ganeesh? Shiva? Zeus? Thor? Triglav? Unkulunkulu? Anybody know, with absolute certainty, whether or not they exist?
And they take it on faith that Ganeesh, Shiva, Zeus, Thor, Triglav, and Unkulunkulu don't.
Christians and Muslims have persecuted, tortured and murdered thousands of believers in Ganeesh, Shiva, Zeus, Thor, Triglav, and Unkulunkulu.
Boy, us atheists are real assholes in comparison, aren't we?
Posted by: One involved | July 24, 2008 6:34 PM
I don't want his blood poured on me, thats gross.
Posted by: Andy James | July 24, 2008 6:34 PM
Yay! I thought you were going to eat the crackers with peanut butter and a banana to give them some character and flavor which they desperately need, and that it would be all done on the open Quran/Koran/whatever.
Its funny. the religious pay so much attention to the fate of some shitty cracker, and abandon everyone else. Just like their god, they're bark is far far worse than their bite. Little yapping poodles.
My father also reared me to be a skeptic, to have the confidence to investigate the world and learn from my mistakes, and to treat everyone as the human being I would also want in reciprocal.
Atheism is the first step, while empiricism, science, learning provide the paths to true fulfillment in our short evolutionary live.
Posted by: echidna | July 24, 2008 6:34 PM
Ice Farmer @1001,
"You should have recycled everything or at least recycled the nail and added the paper, coffee, banana, etc. to your back yard composter."
I think not. That would have been an invitation to every RC marauder around to invade his back yard to "rescue" the cracker to give it a decent burial.
Posted by: Michael Pack | July 24, 2008 6:35 PM
Absolutely Briliant!! The intelligence in this argument is astounding; awe inspiring!! The Catholics might as well pack up and move along, as they don't have a hope in fairy kingdom, or where ever it is they think they go, to compete with that on a level playing field. Judging by their replies, they've clearly accepted as much as have digressed further still into childish banter, threats and name calling.
PZ, you are my personal hero sir! Encour Encour Encour! BRAVO! BRAVO! *CHEERING*
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 6:35 PM
Posted by: Aleksei | July 24, 2008 6:35 PM
Dear PZ,
As this is the 819th comment, I wonder whether you'll read it, but I hope you will, because I'd really like to hear your response.
I'm a skeptic & an atheist & a big fan of yours. It goes without saying that Cook's actions were overreacted to. He was physically assaulted, he was the subject of widespread public ire, he received death threats, and there's a campaign to get him expelled. All this for what can at worst (at WORST) be described as a mean-spirited prank. I think you, and I, and even the vast majority of Catholics in the world would agree with that. The ones sending you smug prayers and vicious threats represent an extremist minority - every Catholic I've spoken to about it thinks Cook was being an idiot, but none of them condone the torrent of hate he's been handed as a result of his actions.
My question is, in criticizing the overreaction, do we really need to overlook the nastiness of what Cook did? Don't you agree that it's nasty to go into a place where people are performing a ritual and screw with it? Don't you agree that it's wrong to, without provocation, misrepresent yourself and participate, in bad faith (no pun intended), in something that matters to other people, with the sole intention of messing with something they don't want you to mess with? Can we just please agree that, the silliness of the belief aside, it's at best a stupid thing to do, and at worst a pretty mean-hearted thing to do? I'm all for showing no respect to the belief itself (and I know you agree with me there), but I can't see any reason not to respect the people who believe it.
I guess, most importantly, I don't think that their overreaction is any justification whatsoever for repeating, and expanding on, Cook's actions. It's second-grade ethics: Do unto others as you would have done unto you. Maybe that one doesn't ring true if your position is, "I would have others disabuse me of irrational beliefs," but what if you thought of it differently: "I would have others respect my right to privately practice my religion (or lack thereof) the way I see fit, and not go out of their way to interfere with it." Maybe a more apropos basic tenet of human morality would be "Two wrongs don't make a right".
Your post today is 95% wonderful. The history of the Eucharist is something that needed to be told. You make a succession of really excellent points with which I wholeheartedly agree. But that picture! (and, to a somewhat lesser extent, the suggestion in your initial post...) It doesn't ADD anything. You said it all. You managed to be critical of a stupid belief, you were snarky and funny and yet informative, and you made better arguments than anyone on the other side ever has or will. You represented the idiots as the idiots they are, and did so in the best way possible, by simply reprinting their own words. It's a masterwork of skeptical criticism and it's an informative, entertaining read! What does a picture of a crucified wafer add to your argument? What purpose is possibly served, other than showing a stubborn refusal to be dissuaded? Couldn't it be that by going to all this trouble, and facing all this anger and resentment in order to crucify a cracker, that you're actually giving it just as much importance as the Catholics?
Your words make me proud, PZ, but your actions in this case make me sad. We're better than them. We don't need to stoop to childish bullshit to compete with them. We win on the basis of our ideas.
I remain a fan, but I'd really love to know your response to my questions.
Thanks,
Aleksei
Brooklyn, NY
Posted by: spurge | July 24, 2008 6:35 PM
No one cares what you think TG
Not to mention the fact that it does not matter if it is real or not.
Posted by: Bill | July 24, 2008 6:35 PM
#1060, is that like Jesus turducken?
Posted by: IceFarmer | July 24, 2008 6:36 PM
@#962 - Sandi
Sandi, you ignorant s.... wait, that's already been used on this blog.
Anyway, you completely missed the point. PZ is not a bigot. He thinks that religion is stupid and doesn't believe in it. Is this not his constitutional right? What about freedom of speech and expression? The issue with the Eucharist was one of PZ making a point about what happened in Florida. A person is more important than a symbol. The analogies you made are overblown and don't correlate to what's been done. PZ has never taught hate. Just because he disagrees with you doesn't mean he hates you. You should perhaps do your research and figure out exactly what has led PZ to do this before you light the torches and go on a witch hunt. You get the picture, now pull you head out of your ass and start thinking.
BTW, MY LAST POST WAS #1001! SWEET! How long will the thread get?
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 6:36 PM
Lewandowski has the right idea, but isn't really exploiting the broad range of social degeneracies which are cured through Catholicism. I'll help him out:
Help fight heliocentrism - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight literacy - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight liberalism - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight modern medicine - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight free speech - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight heresy - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Help fight the theory of the circulatory system - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism.
Posted by: Jamie | July 24, 2008 6:36 PM
Your final paragraph should be a slap the face of the daft buggers that constitute the Catholic faith. So it's a terrible shame they'll be frothing at the mouth so hard after the first couple and never make it to the end!
"Isaac does not regard every idea as equally deserving, since he clearly considers the atheist idea that the sacraments of his faith are empty foolishness to be an outrage. Rather, what he loves is the idea that everyone else must respect his beliefs, no matter what they are, and that any disagreement is an insult" - HOW VERY VERY CORRECT YOU ARE PROF. MYERS
And as for the paragraph that begins "I think if I were truly evil..." that is the very definition of hitting the nail (rusty, tetanus laced) on the head.
Kindest Regards
Jamie
Posted by: Neural T | July 24, 2008 6:36 PM
Digg this blog post:
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Pharyngula_The_Great_Desecration
Let's get it on the front page.
Posted by: Martha | July 24, 2008 6:37 PM
Nothing must be held sacred.
Including, it would seem, basic common standards of courtesy and human decency.
Posted by: warren | July 24, 2008 6:38 PM
Any angry muslims yet?
Posted by: The Chief Instigator | July 24, 2008 6:38 PM
Good on you, P.Z. The Whore of Rome wants to bring back the Inquisition, but unfortunately for the Vatican, it's not the 15th Century any more. (I got cured of any attraction towards organized religion thanks to seeing Oral Roberts and his charades on all three Tulsa TV stations on Sunday mornings when I was a child.) My non-theism hasn't prevented me from getting married and being a parent and grandparent, as well as being a reponsible member of my community. Keep up the good work. (If I had a "consecrated" wafer, I'd let the neighbor's cat have it.)
Posted by: The Other Dan from Milwaukee | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
[sarcasm]Wow ... there must be a whole set of movies out there with cracker abusing bad-guys that I am missing out on. I'll be sure to check out the "Saltines" rack next time I go to Blockbuster.[/sarcasm]
Posted by: Chemist | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
Will there be video at 11 (or whenever the late evening news comes on in your area)???
Forget YouTube---Donahue has probably already had it banned over there....
Posted by: Elastico | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
If Prof. Myers lost his job over this, it would be as meaningless as everything else in the universe.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
So what? Seriously, what real difference does it make?
That's the whole point. Look at how these people are going out of their fucking minds, with, as you point out, absolutely no concrete proof that PZ actually desecrated anything.
It's a thing of beauty, like a room full of dominoes. You know what's going to happen when you knock the first one over, but it's mesmerizing nonetheless.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
Brandon said: "Jesus fucking Christ, you're dumb."
Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!
You could argue (as some have) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for human beings to wait until marriage to have sex, and then, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to not cheat on their spouses... but that kind of argumentation doesn't speak very highly of the human race. I doubt an atheist - a "humanist" - would say that humans CANNOT control themselves any more than animals can. That would be an anti-humanistic thing to say.
Posted by: Jelle De Loecker | July 24, 2008 6:39 PM
This was an amazing read, thanks!
Posted by: wÒÓ† | July 24, 2008 6:41 PM
Totally Photoshopped.
I eagerly await Dawkins' fatwa.
Posted by: Andy James | July 24, 2008 6:41 PM
Its too late for me.
Now that the religious have shown a desire to subjugate democracy in favor of their totalitarian theocracy, or even to place religion next to science in the classroom, they will forever be ridiculed by me personally and criticized in public and in the harshest manner I can objectively muster.
Religion ought to be chased right out of every town and country with our superior powers of irony and sarcasm, and ridicule.
Posted by: Saint Michael the Archangel | July 24, 2008 6:42 PM
PZ,
How do we know that the host that you just nailed was consecrated? Do you have a verification slip and where did you get it from?
I think that you need an exorcism - your body must be flooded with legions of fallen angels, you are truly an evil bigot who is fallen due to pride.
Vade Retro Satana, Ipse Venena Bibas!!!
Lux,
St. Michael
Posted by: Sauve | July 24, 2008 6:42 PM
My respects PZ.
You are the man!
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:42 PM
Translation:
Abridged version:
Posted by: Liz S | July 24, 2008 6:43 PM
If I follow your "logic" correctly, the Catholic Church did a few things you didn't like in the year 1215, so you feel justified today in desecrating Catholic property and intentionally baiting Catholics? Sandi, #964
First, I think it was the Catholic Church giving that kid in Florida hell for saving a wafer for show-and-tell that Dr. Myers didn't like. I didn't much care for it either. Second, am I to understand that Sandi thinks the Catholic church owns Jesus Christ? Or is it just all communion wafers in the world?
Posted by: Chemist | July 24, 2008 6:43 PM
From Bro. Bill over at the Catholic League:
Thursday July 24, 2008
MYERS DESECRATES THE EUCHARIST
July 24, 2008
University of Minnesota professor Paul Z. Myers made good on his pledge to desecrate the Eucharist today. According to his statement on the subject, "I pierced it [the Host] with a rusty nail (I hope Jesus's tetanus shots are up to date). And then I simply threw it in the trash."
Saying he did not want to "single out just the cracker," Myers also tore pages from the Koran along with a few pages from Richard Dawkins' The God Delusion and nailed them to the Host. He then said, "They are just paper. Nothing must be held sacred. (His emphasis.) Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet."
Catholic League president Bill Donohue responded as follows:
"A formal complaint against Myers has already been made. What he did--in both word and deed--constitutes a bias incident, as defined by the University of Minnesota. The policy says that 'Expressions of disrespectful bias, hate, harassment or hostility against an individual, group or their property because of the individual or group's actual or perceived race, color, creed, religion...can be forms of discrimination. Expressions vary, and can be in the form of language, words, signs, symbols, threats, or actions that could potentially cause alarm, anger, fear, or resentment in others...even when presented as a joke.'
"The University must now take action and apply the appropriate sanction. We are contacting the president, Board of Regents and the Equal Opportunity and Affirmative Action Office at the school, as well as Minnesota's governor and both houses of the state legislature; the Catholic community in Minnesota is also being contacted. Moreover, we are also contacting Muslim groups nationwide.
"It is important for Catholics to know that the University of Minnesota will not tolerate the deliberate destruction of the Eucharist by one of its faculty. Just as African Americans would not tolerate the burning of a cross, and Jews would not tolerate the display of swastikas, Catholics will not tolerate the desecration of the Eucharist."
Contact Myers at myersp@morris.umn.edu
Contact President Robert Bruininks at bruin001@umn.edu
Posted by: Aleksei | July 24, 2008 6:43 PM
@ #1077 (Martha)
Here, here. That's exactly my point.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 6:43 PM
Dustin, it's sad to see that you and your fellow atheists seem to be incapable of questioning the idea that condoms are the only solution to AIDS. Apparently you can question our sacred cows, but not your own.
Posted by: Observer | July 24, 2008 6:43 PM
Aleksei@1070,
Nothing I have read of the Webster Cook incident indicates that he went into the Mass with any bad intent. It looks as if he made a mistake, simply intending to show the cracker to his friend, then things escalated. He may have been ignorant, and he probably responded poorly, but when trivial errors are met with extremist responses, escalation is pretty much what you'd expect. In any case, he returned the host, apologized, and his apology was reportedly accepted by church in question. His continued persecution appears to be at the hand of people who have inserted themselves into the problem for their own selfish reasons.
Posted by: James | July 24, 2008 6:44 PM
I really like the image of the wafer in the trash, along with the Qur'an. To really make a point, though, you should also have had an American flag in the trash can, too. People love to worship at the alter of nationalistic jingoism as much as anything else. It would go along with your statement "Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything." Desecrating a piece of cloth with some specific colors & patterns on it is no different than something like a holy book or religious symbol. They all represent a belief in a imaginary set of ideals that some think should be worshiped and given allegiance to.
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 6:44 PM
There are two flaws.
1) Trying to apply something to everyone DOES NOT WORK (cf Vaccines and recurrence of polio, and people refusing the genital wart vaccine)
2) You further it with "Therefore convert". Conversion is not sufficient, nor is it necessary. As I've mentioned before, the only partner that cheated on me was the devout Christian, never an atheist.
Posted by: MM | July 24, 2008 6:45 PM
Hey PZ- this is how it works- you push the rock over the ledge and let everyone else deal with the damage. You just sit back and read huh? COWARD-
The only damage to date is one woman who was fired from her job with 1-800-flowers. She was fired because her husband used her work email account to send PZ an unambiguous death threat.That's the husband's fault, not PZ's.
Posted by: CJO | July 24, 2008 6:45 PM
I think this is very sad. I cannot understand why someone who cares so little about a religion would have to take such drastic measures.
Dude. He put some stuff in the garbage.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:46 PM
Says the man who calls himself Saint Michael the Archangel.
Posted by: Matthew | July 24, 2008 6:46 PM
Christ said, "I would that you were for me or against me; the lukewarm I will spew from my mouth." It seems you are in a better position than many Catholics. However, when you are converted and rue your sin, no one will hail you or listen to you. You'll suddenly be far from the lime light. However, for now you will be feted by the children of this world like a celebrity. And, yes, though you are blind to the spiritual, the demons are cheering you and your blind followers on. But beware, you may be at the edge of the ditch.
Posted by: jorge | July 24, 2008 6:46 PM
Dios tenga piedad de ti.
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 24, 2008 6:47 PM
"Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!"
Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone shared everything they owned, communism would work flawlessly. This is undeniably true!
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 6:47 PM
He did no such thing: he never went near a Catholic mass. He received a few communion wafers in the mail and threw them in the garbage with the other trash.Posted by: Zaphod | July 24, 2008 6:47 PM
John Lewandowski said:
> You could argue (as some have) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for
> human beings to wait until marriage to have sex, and
> then, it is IMPOSSIBLE for them to not cheat on their
> spouses... but that kind of argumentation doesn't speak
> very highly of the human race.
According to your mythology, your god couldn't even keep itself from schtooping a hot, young engaged chick. Why would you expect humans to do any better?
Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 24, 2008 6:47 PM
Man, anyone want to write some software that determines the CPH (i.e. comments per hour)?
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 6:47 PM
What are you talking about? I'm on your side man!Help stop the due process of law - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism!
Help stop the spread of governments which do not defer to the divine authority of the Pope - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism!
Help stop fornication - convert to (orthodox) Catholicism!
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 6:48 PM
The soldiers of the Wehrmacht and the SS were not atheists.
Hitler had Catholic troops and Protestant troops.
And racism and nationalism were indeed an important part of Nazi doctrine. Hitler, and many other Christian Germans, were convinced that Poles were an inferior race, regardless of their religion.
I would bet a cracker that when he wanted to crush Polish Catholics, he sent in his Protestant troops.
That's a pretty despicable defense of lies and false testimony.
But you know what? We can fix it:
If everyone in the world followed sane medical teaching on using condoms, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to use condoms.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 6:48 PM
You just got finished admitting that you have no proof that he actually did anything, yet you still feel secure making this pronouncement.
Gotta love free demonstrations.
Posted by: Saint Michael the Archangel | July 24, 2008 6:48 PM
//Says the man who calls himself Saint Michael the Archangel.//
Pride is always evident before the fall. This man, just a mere mortal who doesn't have his head on straight will one day meet this God who he so disrespectfully tortured and made fun of and he will have to answer not only for his horrible act of cowardice, he will have to answer for the millions of Christians who he offended.
Yes.. I say PZ Myers is an evil man.
Posted by: Hoax | July 24, 2008 6:49 PM
I doubt that was a consecrated Eucharist. You can buy the wafers in bulk online unconsecrated. What a hoax.
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 6:49 PM
No one cares what you think TG
Not to mention the fact that it does not matter if it is real or not.
++++++++++++
Sure it matters. PZ claims he pierced a consecrated host with a rusty nail and then threw it in the trash. Yet, there is almost no evidence of this and what evidence he presents is highly suspicious.
For example, look at the photo carefully. There is lot of leaching of liquid from th coffee grounds into the paper, yet there appears to be none from th coffee grounds on "the cracker'. How come? Also, look at the shadow the nail casts. Why does it stop exactly at the edge of "the cracker"? Real of Photoshopped?
Of course, I guess it doesn't matter if you take your authority's word for it, unquestioned. For those of us who are real scientists, that is anathema.
Posted by: El Herring | July 24, 2008 6:49 PM
Let's examine this "Hitler was an atheist" rumour a bit more.
There is plenty of evidence that, far from him being atheist, he actually thought he was divine:
and more:
and yet more:
Read it all here: http://www.nizkor.org/hweb/people/h/hitler-adolf/oss-papers/text/oss-profile-01.html
All indicators to the effect that Hitler had a serious case of divinity pychosis. This has been well documented. I'm sick to death of hearing about Hitler's supposed "atheism". For Christ's sake people, do some research.
Posted by: Aleksei | July 24, 2008 6:50 PM
@ #1095 (Observer)
You're right. I said it was at best stupid, at worst mean-spirited. Maybe it was only stupid. With PZ, though, there's no question. It's both.
I didn't know Cook had returned the cracker and apologized. I think that's wonderful news, and I think PZ should do the same. It won't hurt his argument one iota to do that, and it would be a small step toward us regaining the high ground in this controversy.
Posted by: Brian | July 24, 2008 6:50 PM
Peace be with you
Posted by: brandon | July 24, 2008 6:51 PM
Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!
Ryan White and a generation of hemophiliacs would tend to take umbrage upon your assertions.
So would all of those who practice "chastity outside of the marriage" -- whatever that means. Do you practice chastity at the bus stop, too? Chastity when playing chess? Chastity at the mall? -- who have themselves been infected by previously infected partners, who may or may not be practicing "chastity outside the marriage" themselves.
Your argument is not an argument, it's infantile wish fulfillment.
Cheers, asshole.
Posted by: Andy James | July 24, 2008 6:51 PM
By the way, ALL of my pals who were Catholics when we were children are now Atheists: rabid, sarcastic, fun loving, irreverent, empathetic, atheists.
In other words good people who you can count on in a tough spot because they identify with you as a fellow human, not as a merit badge for post-death fantasy garbage.
Posted by: marc buhler | July 24, 2008 6:51 PM
Just to add my suppport for you, PZ - well done.
Excellent post - I hope there is still room for my comment!
(signed) marc
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:52 PM
You know the legions of studies that show abstinence-only education makes kids more likely to get pregnant outside of marriage and contract STIs? That's what we call questioning.
I mean, if even your priests can't remain celebate, how do you expect children to?
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 6:52 PM
Yeah, getting caught up in a witch hunt will do that to you. Use the stuff between your ears next time, before you listen to the incitements of a religious nutter.Posted by: en zeero zeero ate fife fore wun ate zeero tee | July 24, 2008 6:53 PM
MRM/#1029: I guess you haven't ever seen Idiocracy, since you seem to think that "outbreeding" rationalists is some sort of extreme virtue to be inordinately proud of. Of course, I wouldn't expect a religious nutter-zealot to understand why breeding for ignorance, hatred, bigotry and indoctrination into the aforementioned three is not something to be proud of.
Posted by: Amanda Marcotte | July 24, 2008 6:54 PM
I love the people praying for you. They hate you, but want anyone and everyone else to be the real source of their hatred---their asshole god who wants to burn you in hell, imaginary Arabs who will terrorist-ize you, whatever. They hope to magic some surrogates in there to hurt you.
Posted by: E.S.Cragg | July 24, 2008 6:54 PM
P.Z. Congrats, well said.
Fr. J - You have repeatedly informed us that we have somehow failed, because we have failed to change your mind. The self-centered ego-centrism you show with that judgment is quite telling.
You believe a tautology. There is nothing we could possibly say or do to break you of your self-referencing circle of 'Truth', years of brainwashing and strategic redefinitions have been intentionally placed on you to hobble your rational mind into accepting a fairy-tale as true.
No my friend, instead you've done nothing but serve as an illustration. Your words indict your own rationality and capacity for reading comprehension. You're not hear to learn or discuss, you're hear because your Truth compels you to sit here and preach it's madness, and we're simply being amused by the psychosis on parade.
Thanks for the laughs.
Posted by: Carlie | July 24, 2008 6:54 PM
You could argue (as some have) that it is IMPOSSIBLE for human beings to wait until marriage to have sex,
Actually, I would argue that there is no need to, presuming the people involved used the proper precautions to minimize disease transfer. In fact, I would argue that this would lead to stronger marriages, as I have seen many, many a bad marriage made solely upon the foundation of "Omygod I'm 20 years old and haven't had sex yet and I can't until I'm married and I can't wait any longer". Those all tend to fall apart by the time the couple hit age 35 or so.
Why did this end up about sex again? It started off about a cracker. Jeez, religious people have a sex fixation. It's like that's all they can think about.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 24, 2008 6:54 PM
Weird. Is this TG also a 911 truther?
There's nothing remarkable about getting a communion wafer and tossing it in the trash.
Posted by: Jesus - Son of G-d | July 24, 2008 6:54 PM
Darnit, all this has been going on way too long now. I forgive everybody involved. Now please people, y'all go home now, there's nothing new to see here. And I gotta gangbang to go to with 12 of my male companions. Tally Ho!
Posted by: mandrellian | July 24, 2008 6:55 PM
You DARE to desecrate The God Delusion? The holy scipture of the atheist humanist secularist religion? Why don't you wipe your butt with On The Origin Of Species or Sagan's Demon Haunted World or Hawking's Brief History? You have offended my deeply-held atheist beliefs by throwing out a piece of paper with words I like printed on it!!!
I CALL HEATHEN FATWA ON PZ MYERS!!!
(*removes tongue from cheek - ow, that was in there pretty deep)
http://generalsystemsvehicle.blogspot.com/2008/07/crackergate-saga-continues-pz-nails-it.html
Onya PZ.
Posted by: Robert | July 24, 2008 6:56 PM
#1098 - don't forget the damage done to Webster Cook in Florida, who got the whole ball rolling.
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 24, 2008 6:56 PM
I love how the Catholics are trying to rationalize this: "But..but...but...I NO IT WUZNT RLY A CONSECRATED EUCHARIST!!!!" And they wonder why we call religion lunacy.
Posted by: Denis Castaing | July 24, 2008 6:56 PM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnum_opus
PZ, It's always a pleasure to read http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/
MAGNUM OPUS All Hail!
I've saved an archive of 214 pages. Something to read again
on a lazy afternoon.
Atheist & Proud
DenisC
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 6:56 PM
I don't give a shit what the fuck you called him, moron. The prideful part is that you fancy yourself an archangel.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 24, 2008 6:57 PM
"yet there appears to be none from th coffee grounds on "the cracker'. How come?"
The cracker isn't as flimsy and absorbant as the paper. It also only has a couple tiny pieces of coffee on it.
"Also, look at the shadow the nail casts. Why does it stop exactly at the edge of "the cracker"? "
How you can see all this on a 40Kb jpeg is beyond me.
"Of course, I guess it doesn't matter if you take your authority's word for it, unquestioned. For those of us who are real scientists, that is anathema."
You're right, we're not being scientific enough. Quick, somebody get a grant so we can study that photograph properly.
Wanker.
Posted by: me | July 24, 2008 6:57 PM
Y'all chickenshit.
Nobody's offended the _real_ scary religion.
Scient*logy. They gots lawyers.
Is it true if you paint a picture of Elron on the cracker first, it comes out different?
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 6:57 PM
Anyone want to be an alterboy for a 'special' service??
Posted by: jgirvine | July 24, 2008 6:58 PM
Good work, good message for people to take away, I sincerely hope they do.
Posted by: Metro | July 24, 2008 6:58 PM
I must say, PZ, that was a nicely done piece of work. By dismissing it as unimportant you acheived far more than if you'd immolated it, crapped on it, or performed some equally spectacular act.
Though I do hope it doesn't put you on the wrong side of U of M policies.
@John Lewandowski
My family were Catholics from at least 1899. My great-uncle and my great-great-grandfather were both bastards, born out of wedlock.
Do you say my grandfolks were lousy specimens of the human race? Is that what I'm supposed to take from your statement?
Your call for universal chastity until marriage, and complete faith within it, are as effective as Canute's injunction to the sea.
You can live in that fantasy world as long as you like, but the real one is happening every day. In Jakarta, in Delhi, in Port-Au-Prince, and in North America.
Failing chastity, the best option is universal condom use. But unlike you, I don't expect it to happen in my lifetime. Especially because the Catholic Church is so determined to breed more poor people, subjugate women, and spread preventible diseases.
Imagine just for one pitiable moment what would happen if the Pope stood up and said "Please! Use common sense, and a condom!" What good he could do with that simple statement.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 6:58 PM
Neural T
I've digged this post. I hope others do as well!
Posted by: Steve_C | July 24, 2008 6:58 PM
TG it doesn't matter because there's no difference between an unconsecrated host and a blessed one because... NOTHING HAPPENS WHEN ONE IS BLESSED.
Unless of course mumbling words and waving hands while talking to an imaginary ghost actually does something to the chemical make up of the host.
But then of course we get the agruments the the host IS the same, but different and only the imaginary ghost knows the difference.
Posted by: Neural T | July 24, 2008 6:59 PM
And, yes, though you are blind to the spiritual, the demons are cheering you and your blind followers on.
Another example that religion is brainwashing.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 6:59 PM
#1018 Thanks for that laugh, it was good.
_____________________________________
Rayven Alandria@972,
Very well said.
Posted by: anthropic
__________________________
Thanks, I won't hold my breath waiting for him to grasp it though.
Rayven
_________________
Rayven Alandria!!!! Long time no see! Sorry to see MajorBytes sell atheists.com to the Turkish hackers...but I'm working on something to fill the gap. Look to the old yahoo atheistsdotcom group to get my email addy and send me a line and I'll pass along what I'm up to.
Posted by: Skeeve | July 24, 2008 6:19 PM
__________________________________
Hey there Skeeve! I just bookmarked your blog. I'll get in touch. I would post my email addy here, but somehow I think that would not be wise.
I think we need to make this crackerjack brigade into a book. I can't keep up with the posts anymore, everytime I click refresh there are a hundred more. I think I have missed many gaps in the conversation. It would be an entertaining book, I'd buy it. Go for it PZ, make it into a book.
It would also be a wonderful study for a psychology class. Watching people's minds in action during conversation, and especially heated ones, could be a good tool for a professor to use.
Rayven
Posted by: TG | July 24, 2008 6:59 PM
So far, it all looks like a huge fake.
Posted by: TG
So what? Seriously, what real difference does it make?
++++++++++++
Oh, it makes all the difference regarding PZ's credibility and sense of respect for the truth. Both essential character traits of a reputable and trustworthy scientist.
Posted by: Kel | July 24, 2008 6:59 PM
And on the 7th day, God said "why so serious?"*
Nice explanation for it all. I'm still coming to grips with the idea that Catholics actually believe the cracker turns into the body of Christ. It's symbolic, not literal. It's even more absurd than believing in the talking snake, and that story is obviously allegorical. In the end, it's just another excuse for Catholics to get outrage and demand conformity from an otherwise increasingly apathetic world. It's influence is dying, using sensationalist stories like this to stay relevant is not going to help.
*may be attributed to The Joker
Posted by: Daniel W | July 24, 2008 7:00 PM
Speaking as an individual who is assisting Cook and Collard down here at UCF-
bravo.
Interestingly enough, the etymology of the word AMEN directly translates to "So Be It". Much like the word tetletsi (which is the final word of Christ-kabob) means "It is finished", but it is more so when discussing debt. So, yes, this does mean a Jew, being killed, used a banking term.
Surprise ?
Anyhow, congrats furthermore on this- good luck with the Catholic League. You, of course, have the support of all of us working down here.
Posted by: TomK | July 24, 2008 7:00 PM
Great Post. Hilarious.
By the way, probably unintentionally, this rises to the level of visionary religious art. I want to buy a print and donate the money to victims of religious violence.
Posted by: MM | July 24, 2008 7:00 PM
#1084 Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!
Since we still can't be sure how the AIDS virus entered the human population, your assertion is hardly "undeniably true." Sex is ONE way that AIDS is transmitted, but it's hardly the only way, and there's no reason to assume that it's the way the first human became infected.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 7:00 PM
Rob said: "There are two flaws.
1) Trying to apply something to everyone DOES NOT WORK (cf Vaccines and recurrence of polio, and people refusing the genital wart vaccine)"
Was that an intentional Freudian slip/double entendre or what? Trying to "apply" something to everyone does not work? Well, thanks for telling me that trying to convince everyone to apply condoms to themselves isn't going to work.
Rob also said: "2) You further it with "Therefore convert". Conversion is not sufficient, nor is it necessary. As I've mentioned before, the only partner that cheated on me was the devout Christian, never an atheist."
"Devout", you say? I don't recall; which branch of Christianity allows adultery?
Also, you are correct that conversion is not actually necessary! It is perfectly possibly for non-Catholics to only sleep with their spouses.
Owlmirror said: *Snip Hitler stuff*
Murdering people is against Catholic teaching.
Owlmirror also said: "That's a pretty despicable defense of lies and false testimony."
Is that how "reason" and "humanism" work? If you arbitrarily declare me to be a despicable liar, that makes it true, regardless of your lack of evidence or an argument? And you say I'm crazy for thinking that a cracker can be declared to be Jesus?
Owlmirrow went on to say: "If everyone in the world followed sane medical teaching on using condoms, AIDS would not exist. So if you want to put an end to AIDS, just convince everyone in the world to use condoms."
Well, except that your friend Rob already informed us that "Trying to apply something to everyone DOES NOT WORK". Plus there's the fact that condoms fail every once in awhile. That sucks, doesn't it? But, if you want to play Russian Roulette with people's lives in order to hold up your sacred cow called a condom, that's your business.
Hmm... hey, Professor Myers! You should have thrown a condom in the garbage, too! Apparently they're an object of worship for many of your acolytes!
Posted by: Erwin Blonk | July 24, 2008 7:01 PM
"Kudos to Bill Donahue"
What he does understand is that if you want a religion to be powerful and influential, you need to be aggressive and need to defend and conquer.
Strangely, no catholic I ever met, placed prime interest in a large, powerful, influential and mighty catholic movement, more than satisfied with practicing the religion. Equally interesting, I never met agressive atheists, muslims or what have you (barring the occasional slightly pushy Jehova's Witness but even they weren't that bad).
I guess I must be a very lucky man. Or my experience actually mirror reality, a reality in which 99% of the people are happy to live their lives as they are. The other 1% meet on the internet. Mea culpa (which is just a latin phrase to me, while others may attach a more elaborate meaning to it).
Posted by: Arnaud | July 24, 2008 7:01 PM
Well done PZ! A freedom you cannot make use of is no freedom at all.
Posted by: maureen | July 24, 2008 7:01 PM
Gotcha "Fr J"
A real priest would know how to spell altar!
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 7:01 PM
Weird. Is this TG also a 911 truther?
No, apparently he's a real™ scientist. Must be a pain in the ass for him to commute to work; always questioning whether the next slab of concrete actually exists or whether he's been drugged to believe so and in fact is about to fall off of a very large cliff. To take the existence of the sidewalk on his own authority from the last time he trod it would be anathema.
Posted by: Angie | July 24, 2008 7:01 PM
I wish Catholics had become this outraged over the child abuse perpetrated by their beloved clergy.
Sad when baked goods rate more highly than children. And they call us evil.
Posted by: mandrellian | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
Onya PZ :)
http://generalsystemsvehicle.blogspot.com/2008/07/crackergate-saga-continues-pz-nails-it.html
.m.
Posted by: Kevin | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
All right, let's start making our bets. In three days, will the trash can lid be rolled away to reveal an empty tomb?
Crazy Christians.
Posted by: Angie | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
I wish Catholics had become this outraged over the child abuse perpetrated by their beloved clergy.
Sad when baked goods rate more highly than children. And they call us evil.
Posted by: SweetKevin | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
To post #1084:
If everybody practiced safe sex and got regular check-ups, it is unlikely anybody would have AIDS. Just because your argument may be true doesn't mean you have proven a point.
Furthermore, I'm sure you've heard Billy Joel's "Only the Good Die Young." In short, it's about how if try to avoid all risk in life, you're not really 'living'. Hence, only the 'good' (people who try to strictly follow all the rules) 'die young' (aren't living life to it's fullest potential).
Funnily enough, because of it's relevancy, the songs story focuses on a girl who is going to become a nun and Billy Joel is telling her she's throwing her life away. Great song.
"They say there's a heaven for those who will wait. Some say it's better, but I say it ain't. I'd rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the saints. Sinners are much more fun. Only the good die young."
Posted by: biggeo | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
the Great Desecration is a powerful essay;I was moved to tears by the end of it.I have renewed hope for humanity's bright future beyond superstition and hate.
Posted by: Dan | July 24, 2008 7:02 PM
This was just amazing, a masterpiece of beautiful writing. The end result and picture to me was anti-climatic, but it's time to move on. In PZ's honor, tonight I shall have some crackers, wine and cheese.
Posted by: PM | July 24, 2008 7:03 PM
I may have missed it above, but I was hoping you would have subjected the wafers to scientific analysis to see if they had undergone transubstantiation. If they can bring in a team for the Shroud of Turin, why not for the wafers?
When I was a Christian, I belonged to a liberal Episcopal church that would use homemade bread and decent wine. Really! What a concept. Real bread, not something which is horrible styrofoam. Dare I say it -- it is not even bread. And the bread bringers generally would make them the morning of the service, and you could break off a nice warm chewy chunk.
If you're going to have a ritual, at least do it with style, no?
Posted by: IceFarmer | July 24, 2008 7:03 PM
@#1134
Good call! PZ should have had a copy of Battlefield Earth in there or something. Perhaps a picture of Tom Cruise or a characature or Xenu.
Posted by: Pat | July 24, 2008 7:03 PM
#1144 "By the way, probably unintentionally, this rises to the level of visionary religious art. I want to buy a print and donate the money to victims of religious violence."
LOL, send it to this church I guess.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/scotland/tayside_and_central/7521925.stm
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 7:03 PM
Donohue wrote:
Good thing you included the "God Delusion," a symbol of your own beliefs, PZ. It might save your ass. What you did isn't a lone attack on Catholicism, but on holding anything sacred in an abstract sense.
Posted by: NoLaughingMatter | July 24, 2008 7:04 PM
"and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus."
Posted by: Rose | July 24, 2008 5:09 PM
Wow, calling Jesus a fruit...isn't that worse than what PZ did.
Posted by: JoJo | July 24, 2008 7:04 PM
Amazing read - and an excellent demonstration that nothing is sacred.
*applaud*
Posted by: The Country Shrink | July 24, 2008 7:04 PM
Just wondering what this whole thing has to do with science. It seems a whole lot more like Paul is being a demagogue for his own personal attention.
thecountryshrink.com
Posted by: Bobo | July 24, 2008 7:05 PM
#699
Some people have far too much time on their hands. Get out of the basement and get some fresh air.
Posted by: onclepsycho | July 24, 2008 7:05 PM
Hey, remember when PZ was expelled from Expelled? Already history, by now. What a year, professor!
How's the book going, by the way? Time to publish, you'll be on the lists forever!
Congratulations again, and thank you for this wonderful blog.
Posted by: Geral | July 24, 2008 7:05 PM
Posting in a legendary thread.
Posted by: roger | July 24, 2008 7:05 PM
"Be cheerful! Jesus will take care of everything. Let us pay no attention to people who do not know what they are talking about. Let us trust in Jesus and our heavenly Mother and everything will work out well." padre pio
Posted by: Fledermaus | July 24, 2008 7:06 PM
It is evil--archetypally evil--to desecrate the Eucharist. It's the sort of stuff archetypal bad guys in the movies do.
That would be the most BORING.MOVIE.EVAH. Um, well done PZ. As a former Gopher I will even forgive you for the 3rd rate university crack.
Posted by: CanuckRob | July 24, 2008 7:07 PM
Well said PZ. Thoughtful, accurate, uplifting and disparaging all at the same time. The last paragraph was perfect.
Posted by: jcmacc | July 24, 2008 7:07 PM
#1084:
"If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!"
Err...just to deny your truth : tell that to the unlucky individuals that contracted HIV via blood transfusion for the only "sin" of being in an accident or requiring transfusions in surgery.
I'd also add i.v. drug abuse as another source of the infection that doesn't have anything to do with being sexually chaste or not.
But, please carry on......
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 7:07 PM
TG:
I don't think you're a real scientist. In fact, I'm pretty sure that you're lying about it. No real scientist would pretend to be a real scientist, so you must be a liar.
Posted by: me | July 24, 2008 7:08 PM
A reputable scientist documents his experiments so others can repeat and verify them. I encourage you and everyone to test these results.Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 7:09 PM
"Apparently they're an object of worship for many of your acolytes!"
Posted by: John Lewandowski
John Lewandowski, a believer in magical crackers thinks atheists worship condoms! HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHA!!! Too Funny!
Talk about a warped sense of reality! HAHAHAHAHA!!
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 7:09 PM
I wish. Alas, if Donohue has his way PZ may have a fight on his hands.
Did you talk with the University president before going ahead with this, PZ?
Posted by: Becca | July 24, 2008 7:10 PM
Well done, PZ. One more reason why you're one of my heroes.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 7:11 PM
@1173 - I don't think PZ was doing an experiment on the stale cracker. He was just throwing out some trash.
Posted by: Lanfranc | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
Like a few others, I'd also be interested in which particular "Catholic nation" is is that is supposed to have "[slaughtered] its non-Christian citizenry" 70 years ago. Perhaps Dr Myers could expand on this issue a bit more?
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
Serious question: Why do so many of you assume that we Catholics were NOT outraged by the sexual abuse scandal?
The sexual abuse of children is extremely evil. The Catholic Church must continue to work to put an end to these atrocities committed by supposed men of God, and do whatever it can to help the victims.
Of course, for you guys, the only way that the Church can possibly atone is for every single bishop and priest to be thrown in jail and for the Vatican to be burned to the ground.
In fact, I bet that just reading that last sentence turned a number of you on sexually.
Posted by: delosgatos | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
Tyler @1103 - perfect retort!
Posted by: Dustin | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
Wait... the Virgin Mother shoots fruit of of her what, now?
Posted by: ChrisKG | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
P Zus Christ!?!?
How could the holy symbol of Ray Comfort be left to rot in a pile of garbage with an enriched iron (obviously intelligently designed) cracker? The mistreatment of the banana will definitely spark the ire of the Way of The Master Ministries ©®tm. Since we all know the cracker was simply a red herring to the real desecration, the peeled and discarded proof of God! The banana! Where are the monkey minions to defend this sacrilege? I will "prey" on you...err...I mean I will pray for you...
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 7:12 PM
Thank you PZ! Very well done.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 24, 2008 7:13 PM
I just woke up and logged on. What'd I miss?
Oh crap. Fine, I'll start from the start and join you all in a few hours.
Posted by: Ticktockman | July 24, 2008 7:14 PM
I know this won't be the last word in the thread -- far from it! -- but I have to say, as I'm on my way out, this has been a really great desecration. Thanks, ya'll.
-TTm
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 7:15 PM
TonyT said: "John Lewandowski, a believer in magical crackers thinks atheists worship condoms! HAHAAHAHAHAHAHAAHAHAAHAHA!!! Too Funny!"
Thanks, I thought it was funny, too.
Posted by: Rienk | July 24, 2008 7:15 PM
Pasta Desecration Spurs Outrage
MORRIS, MN -- A University of Central Florida alumni, upset religious groups hold Pastafarian services on public campuses, has opened an Italian restaurant serving mainly spaghetti, a nutritious meal so sacred to Pastafarians they call it the Holiness of His Noodly Appendage. According to Adam Susan of the Flying Spaghetti Monsterism Defamation League the actions of the UCF alumni should be seen as a hate crime. "To open a restaurant selling the Holy Body of our Creator to infidels equals kidnapping and extortion," he replied by e-mail. "It shows a lack of respect for our Holiest of all religions."
Spurring even more outrage, Paul Zachary Myers, a professor at the University of Minnesota Morris, has released pictures of him, an atheist, trashing a bowl of the Flying Spaghetti Monster's Noodly Appendages. Myers announced his intention earlier on his blog, sparking a flood of e-mails, including death threats, from both outraged and concerned Pastafarians. Myers does not see the blasphemy in his actions. He claims "it's just a macaroni-damned serving of noodles!"
Posted by: palmira | July 24, 2008 7:16 PM
In the 1298 alleged desecration of an host all the jewish population of Röttingen was burned at the stake. Severe persecutions followed in Franconia, Bavaria and Austria. A German nobleman by the name of Rindfleisch (he was called the Judenschlächter) gathered a small army and began to slaughter Jews from city to city. In about six months he burned and massacred an estimated 100,000 Jews in 140 communities including Wurzburg, Ratisbon, Nuremberg, Augsburg, Heilbronn and Rottingen.
There's this book, «» is quite good explaining the catholic reactions we are all witnessing:
«the host desecration myth grew out of Christian insecurities surrounding the elaboration of the Christian doctrine of transubstantiation, whereby the body and blood of Christ is truly, physically present in the guise of the consecrated sacramental bread and wine.»
These insecurities also explained the persecution by the Catholic Church of atomism and all attempts to explain things like «color», «smell» or flavour that belonged to the theological domain, that pertained to the «miracle» of the eucharist
Posted by: Libraryguy | July 24, 2008 7:16 PM
At#107: Um.. that should be "me damn it..." Also do acolytes of PZ get to wear squid-themed outfits?
Posted by: Totus Tuus | July 24, 2008 7:17 PM
+JMJ+ +AMDG+
I am very saddened to hear of Dr. Myers' desecration of the Body of Christ. I forgive Dr. Myers and the people who stole the Body of Christ for him for what they have done, and I will pray that God have mercy on their souls.
I offered to send Dr. Myers a self-addressed stamped envelope that he could use to send me the consecrated hosts, and I would have placed them in my college's tabernacle, but I guess my e-mail reached him too late.
As a college student who hopes to someday serve God and His Church as a priest, the Eucharist holds a very dear place in my heart, and I will pray that all of you will someday share the great gift we are given in the Eucharist.
Posted by: Neural Transmissions | July 24, 2008 7:17 PM
The person that you should really feel sorry for is Bruininks. Think of the head ache that he has to put up with now.
Posted by: Nerdcore Steve | July 24, 2008 7:18 PM
Well done sir
Posted by: God | July 24, 2008 7:18 PM
John Lewandowski, she'd be alive if it wern't for you.
Posted by: Arnaud | July 24, 2008 7:19 PM
Lanfranc @ 1178, could it be the one whose soldiers sported a belt buckle engraved with "Gott Mitt Uns"?
Posted by: me | July 24, 2008 7:19 PM
TG seems to believe he was. If he doesn't trust PZ, then he should test it himself.Posted by: Katie | July 24, 2008 7:20 PM
So if this so called "cracker" isn't important then why are all you non catholics so hell bent on desecrating the Eucharist if it's just a "cracker"?
You know what's funny.. even the demonic witch craft anti priest's know how powerful this "cracker" is.
Maybe you should do your research about laws in some states about religious persecution!
[I'll have my church pray for all of your souls that one day you will realize that it isn't just a "cracker".]
"Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
Luke 23:34
Posted by: John Kusters | July 24, 2008 7:21 PM
Cherl Hurley @ #1056
Jesus pour your precious blood upon all those involved Amen!
Ew, gross! It's like something out of a horror flick! Sorry, I'm not into blood-play.
Posted by: palmira | July 24, 2008 7:22 PM
Missing a link in comment # 1188
Gentile Tales: The Narrative Assault on Late Medieval Jews
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 7:22 PM
John RE: post #1179
Actions speak louder than words, Catholics may have expressed outrage verbally, but these pedophiles were not removed from the church. They were sent to a different churches to continue on spreading the word of God.
Even if some may have been removed from the church, they should have been sent to PRISON. IT IS AGAINST THE LAW TO MOLEST AND RAPE CHILDREN. In case your church is unaware of that.
Posted by: CGK | July 24, 2008 7:22 PM
It is quite a shame that really, all anyone against the Catholic church has to talk about is the fact that they are against it. It doesn't really make for any exciting discussions.
I would also agree that the fact that these things are making news is proof that people are bored.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 7:23 PM
me@1195 Maybe TG will run off and try to figure out how to run some tests. It'll keep him occupied for awhile. Although, he'll probably have to finish high school first.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 7:23 PM
I doubt that was a consecrated Eucharist. You can buy the wafers in bulk online unconsecrated. What a hoax.
Posted by: Hoax | July 24, 2008 6:49 PM
___________________
Please refer to post #577
Posted by: delosgatos | July 24, 2008 7:24 PM
Good thing you included the "God Delusion," a symbol of your own beliefs, PZ. It might save your ass. What you did isn't a lone attack on Catholicism, but on holding anything sacred in an abstract sense.
I'm not sure any ass needed saving here, but this is a good point - it clearly demonstrated PZ wasn't engaging in hate speech, just expressing his opinion on revering objects.
Posted by: Sherry | July 24, 2008 7:25 PM
I've been tossing Gideon Bibles in the trash for a long time now. Even taught my kids to do the same. It brings me a tiny bit of satisfaction to rid one hotel room, for a small amount of time, of superstition.
Posted by: Matt | July 24, 2008 7:25 PM
Thank you for being so brave. I would not have done this, but I'm glad someone is willing to. I'm glad someone is willing to stand up to ridiculousness and say "No, that's just stupid."
My hopes for your continued success :)
Posted by: Evolving Squid | July 24, 2008 7:26 PM
Have you ever considered what a true fatass the cracker-jesus must be? Consider the mass of a single cracker... I don't have one, but there's probably not a lot to it, so let's say 0.1 g.
Now, there are about a billion Catholics in the world, but let's say only about 1/3 actually practice regularly and have communion 20 out of 52 weeks of the year.
That's about 6.7 billion little cracker-jesi each year. 670 megagrams... 670 tonnes of Jesus. Last year. Over the last 50 years, an eyeball estimate says that Catholics have chewed up and shat out well over 20000 tonnes of Jewish messiah.
Kinda puts it all in perspective.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 7:27 PM
Because you're still Catholic.
Posted by: Lanfranc | July 24, 2008 7:27 PM
Arnaud #1194: I'd say that for a country to be considered Catholic, a significant majority of its citizens ought to actually be Catholics. This has not been the case for for Germany since the Reformation.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 7:28 PM
He was another fraud.Posted by: mothwentbad | July 24, 2008 7:28 PM
Stimpson -
"Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???"
It's not SACRED so much as it is tautological. You should read about it sometime.
Posted by: chuckgoecke | July 24, 2008 7:28 PM
I'll just add my 2 cents. Great post PZ. You are my hero!
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 7:29 PM
John Lewandowski wrote:
So, tell us what you did to express that outrage? I didn't see much of it.
Posted by: El Herring | July 24, 2008 7:30 PM
Regardless of anything else, this is the bottom line:
Any organisation that protects child molesters within its ranks as a matter of documented policy deserves absolutely no respect regardless of anyone's faith, and should be brought crashing down and destroyed by any means possible, and the perpetrators and protectors of these crimes should be brought to justice with all the weight of international law.
End of argument.
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 7:31 PM
RE: post #1213
Well put El Herring.
Posted by: Martin Richer | July 24, 2008 7:32 PM
Did I get the first post? Awwww, dammit.
You GO, son.
I was a bad boy in 3rd grade, got tossed from public school, parents stuck me in a Catholic school, downtown Detroit, early 1960s. On my third day with the nuns, one of them cracked me across the knuckles with a metal edged wooden ruler, broke on knuckle and one finger. My crime? I was writing with my left hand, the only way I'd been taught and the only way I knew how. Parents took me out, tried to have her charged (pop was a Detroit cop), but were blocked by the Diocese. Lovely organization, that Catholic Church.
I had hoped for an avenging Hero, and now, 40 years later, here he be!
MAKE SURE YOU TAKE OUT THAT TRASH WITHIN 3 DAYS.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 7:32 PM
Dinkim @ #1207 and the Great Denier John Lewandowski
Exactly! Because you all do absolutely nothing about the number of priests that are hiding out in Rome. You just bow your heads in the sand and pray. You ignore all of the gross injustice that has been perpetrated on the victims and call them "liars out for money." Anybody that does try to raise a cry about it gets shouted down. I met the man who started the support group for people abused by priests. He certainly does not have the support of the majority of catholics.
Posted by: dave | July 24, 2008 7:32 PM
Wow- up to 1179 posts. With many repeats. 1179 Atheist /
1 billion Catholics not even counting Christians and other religions. Man, you guys have a lot of campaigning to do if you want PZ to publish a book. And a book about what? you losers and your posts. Ha,ha,ha,ha! better start a kitty folks, he's going to need money for heat this winter. Think about it- no matter who gets involved, this country is a whore for the almighty dollar. Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance he'll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God than those who don't. How is he going to keep his classes filled? The college is going to pay this guy to teach a handful of students. Even if he doesn't get canned for this, he'll be gone by next summer- Pure economics folks- and who will laugh then? I know one person- ME
Posted by: The Country Shrink | July 24, 2008 7:32 PM
Ah yes... These comments illustrate my points very nicely.
Some Psychological Aspects of Atheism--Part II
Posted by: goddidn't | July 24, 2008 7:32 PM
"Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???"
Evolution is questioned all the time and yet the evidence continues to support the theory.
Posted by: waldteufel | July 24, 2008 7:33 PM
Lanfranc #1178 -- Germany. A Christian (and heavily Catholic} nation that spawned the NAZI party and fed upon centuries of Christian anti-Semitic fervor to commit the Holocaust.
By 1939, after annexing the Sudetenland and Austria, Germany was about 45% Catholic.
Don't forget the German army belt buckles: "Gott mit Uns".
Posted by: llewelly | July 24, 2008 7:33 PM
John Lewandowski , #1179:
I think most people here know that average Catholics were as outraged as anyone. That is not the problem. The problem is that the pope, (2 popes, in fact), many archbishops and hundreds of other powerful Catholic authorities worked for decades to keep secret the sexual abuse committed by priests and other Catholic authority figures. Your leaders protected child-rapists for decades - and they continue to do so. That is why people are angry.
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 7:34 PM
Wow, the public school system has really gone down the tubes! I've read these comments and my overwhelming impression is that you "Myers Groupies" simply can't think logically. Your arguments are like: "All dogs are canines. A pug is a dog. Therefore, a pug is a vegetable." You folks just don't know how to determine the validity or invalidity of premises and discern logical or illogical conclusions. If your moronic thinking is representative of society's at large, then I'm scared; one simply can't reason with a blockhead. I think we've really got to revamp the entire public school system. You people are so blinded by your own bigotry against Catholics that you can't even recognize that you're bigots. I feel like I'm arguing with turnips (uh, talking turnips, that is). Oh, well. I'm hoping the president of Myers' college will see the light and kick his adolescent intolerant ass out the door. Woo hoo!!!!
Posted by: CR | July 24, 2008 7:34 PM
RE: post 1207
Would you leave the country if the president molested somebody?
Judging an entire organization based on its bad apples is incredibly poor. The Catholics have the unique ability to produce saints, which many seem to have forgotten. Were Mother Theresa, Padre Pio, and Cardinal Neumann all just confused cracker worshippers?
Say whatever you like, the outstnding contributions of these individuals to humanity stand for themselves.
Posted by: Steve P | July 24, 2008 7:34 PM
"It seems a whole lot more like Paul is being a demagogue for his own personal attention. "
And immediately after this statement you post a URL to your blog.
Fucking tool.
Posted by: Jim | July 24, 2008 7:34 PM
Very nicely done. Thank you, PZ.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 7:35 PM
The priest-on-child scandals should be a pretty big red flag to show that chastity is not a reasonable thing to expect from anyone.
Abstinence-only is an obsolete idea and is not something that you can reasonably expect large groups of people to obey. It's an ideological dead-end and people are dying because of it's perpetuation.
People like YOU John Lewandowski, contribute to the idea that sex before marriage is a sin, people are dying because of it! Do you rather they wear a condom or get HIV? If you expect them to be abstinent then you have blood on your hands.
Reality: Many Catholics fornicate and commit adultery like many non-catholics do.
Posted by: DoctorE | July 24, 2008 7:36 PM
Sweet, so fargin sweet :)
Thanks!
Posted by: SDG | July 24, 2008 7:36 PM
Norman Doering @#1212:
Shows what you know.
It just so happens that for years and years before the scandal hit the public media in a big way, conservative Catholic groups had been tirelessly trying to bring the matter to light. Publications like The Wanderer and other traditionalist Catholic outlets were going after negligent bishops and other contributing problems.
Posted by: Michael X | July 24, 2008 7:36 PM
Sandi, as someone who is obviously well educated, would be so kind as to give examples for your claims instead of simply asserting them? It helps my slow thinking process.
Posted by: Bubba Sixpack | July 24, 2008 7:37 PM
These religious-right loons almost make fundie muslim loons look normal. I didn't realize before how many muslim-like Christian wackos there were in the U.S.
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | July 24, 2008 7:37 PM
"I won't mince words. Myers is an evil man. And as evil men, particularly evil intellectuals, tend to be, he is also a mad man as are most of his acolytes and followers."
Can I be an acolyte?
"Please show me the flaw in my argument. If everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage, we wouldn't have AIDS. This is undeniably true!"
Here's the flaw: You live, wish, and hope in an imperfect world, and no amount of wishing and hoping will make it perfect. When you attain perfection you will be able to demand it of others. Until then, understand the world is not perfect, and you are powerless to change that.
Posted by: Murky | July 24, 2008 7:38 PM
Nice going PZ
I think the whole cracker thing is a bit silly, but it should be considered a matter of free speech and that you shouldn't get fired for it. I do wonder what the more liberal Catholics think of it. Wasn't JFK a Catholic?
Posted by: CalGeorge | July 24, 2008 7:38 PM
The motto of the Catholic religion should be:
Have cracker, will con.
Some con artist priest waves his hands over a mass-produced cracker and it suddenly becomes special.
Never ceases to amaze me that people continue to fall for that kind of crap.
Posted by: Angie | July 24, 2008 7:39 PM
"In fact, I bet that just reading that last sentence turned a number of you on sexually." - John Lewandowski.
What an odd thing to say. However, I find people often ascribe thoughts to others that occur naturally to themsleves. They're usually wrong, but it's a good indicator of who they are and what they're about.
Posted by: Andrew | July 24, 2008 7:39 PM
Again, you're just an asshole. It's a shame that people on either side of the "argument" are overreacting over someone like you, it's counterproductive.
Posted by: Elvee Kaye | July 24, 2008 7:39 PM
Dude, don't you know those things come back to life?? Seriously, at the End of the Age, there will be a great Zombie Cracker Invasion, when all the offended crackers rise up in vengeance on their teeny little legs and demand the brains of their tormentors!
XD
Okay, not really, but it makes for an interesting mental image, no? I am glad you threw in a banana. I consider it a slam against Ray Comfort, the evangelist who believes the banana to be evidence of God's existence because it is so perfectly designed for humans to eat. Take THAT, Intelligent Design!
Posted by: Lanfranc | July 24, 2008 7:39 PM
Waldteufel 1220: I'm curious: Have you, or others here, ever heard of the 1937 papal encyclical Mit brennender Sorge?
Wiki link, for your convenience.
Posted by: Julie | July 24, 2008 7:40 PM
How dare you do that to Jesus? I cannot believe you can do that and get away with it. It is not some cracker. I truly pray for your soul and your conversion because Satan is in you right now.
Posted by: raresilk | July 24, 2008 7:41 PM
love it, elegant.
When you were merely "holding the host hostage," it was so clear and self-evident to the Christians that it was the pure and transubstantiated body of Christ, in person. And you were hurting it, or at least potentially hurting it, and stood to be punished in the hottest circles of hell. They insisted on this as an article of faith, and were terribly offended when you said "it's just a cracker."
But then, when you actually "killed the host," by sticking an iron nail through it, and the host didn't bleed, or cry out, or show any signs of being a god's body, and when no heavenly punishment came down upon you for doing so, the Christians took all of that back. THEY, in fact, utterly adopted YOUR previous position that "it's just a cracker," and started challenging you to prove that "the host was consecrated" -- pretending that YOU were the one who were seeking to prove that the body of THEIR god existed in it.
This high level of logical fallacy and inconsistency should disgust anybody with a functioning brain cell, Christian or non-Christian. This is a classic example of the reason why religion simply does not make sense.
People who are religious either should stop being religious, or should stop pretending that it makes sense. There is no rational argument for it. They simply should admit "I have carved out a certain area of my life where I choose superstition and medieval beliefs over everything that reason tells me, and I'm going to do that no matter what my senses or my mind demonstrates to me, because it makes me feel good." Then maybe we could all stop arguing. Some people would give up their religious beliefs once they recognized that fact. Others would not because many people like to do or believe irrational things. But it would be better than the religious people constantly trying to act like they make sense.
Posted by: Maria | July 24, 2008 7:41 PM
Please join me in praying for this Professor and his family and all those posting here who do not believe, do not adore, and do not love God. These people esp. this Professor need our prayers. They do not know realize what they are doing!!
I especially recommend praying the rosary for this Professor's conversion.
****************************************************
My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love you. I ask forgiveness for those who do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.
Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore you profoundly. I offer you the most precious body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which he is offended. Through the infinite merits of his most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners.
O my Jesus, I offer all my personal sacrifices, pains and suffers, and penances up for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Posted by: DoctorE | July 24, 2008 7:41 PM
Pure genius, i worship you :)
Posted by: goddidn't | July 24, 2008 7:41 PM
Katie said-[I'll have my church pray for all of your souls that one day you will realize that it isn't just a "cracker".]
Save your doing nothing for someone else. We do not need to have non-action directed toward us.
And, Katie, have you been hanging out with "Anti-Priests"? I'm an Anti-Priest in that I do not accept the B.S. spewing from their mouths and I am not feeling the power of the Cracker.
You trivialize the word Persecution
Posted by: me | July 24, 2008 7:42 PM
Wow, the
public school systemCatholic Church has really gone down the tubes! I've read these comments and my overwhelming impression is that you"Myers Groupies""Catholics" simply can't think logically. Your arguments are like:"All dogs are canines. A pug is a dog. Therefore, a pug is a vegetable.""A cracker is a living corpse, yet it isn't."Posted by: James | July 24, 2008 7:42 PM
Catholics are not the only ones who believe in sex before marriage. It is also promoted and practiced by Jews, Islamics, and members of the Eastern Orthodox church (who believe in celibate clerics as well).
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 7:43 PM
RE: Sandi post#1222 , and other Christians who have come here to rant and rave.
I find it ironic that we are not on a Catholic site giving catholics lectures about why Atheism is the right choice.... Yet, Christians seem to show up here left and right yelling what bigots atheists are. Apparently Sandi has been taking Scientology notes.. Attack, never defend.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 7:43 PM
And yet Catholics committed murder. Lots of murder.
Catholic officials in Africa have lied and claimed that condoms do not work to prevent AIDS. They have also claimed that condoms were deliberately infected with the virus.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7014335.stm
Were you simply unaware of this? Do you agree that the above claims by the Archbishop of Mozambique are indeed despicable lies, or do you defend them?
Vows of chastity fail far more frequently. Or do you oh-so-conveniently forget all of the child-rapers in your Church?
Not to mention the Popes, cardinals, archbishops, and priests with children and mistresses, historically.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 7:44 PM
#1223
What is this, Civ V?
No shit. It's kind of by definition, you know?
Is that a serious attempt at an analogy, especially post-Clinton? Don't remember that getting hushed up, and that was fully consensual.
Posted by: Erwin Blonk | July 24, 2008 7:44 PM
#1217
So it is about who has the most power?
Posted by: Totus Tuus | July 24, 2008 7:44 PM
+JMJ+ +AMDG+
Maria,
I will join you in praying the Rosary tonight for Dr Myers, his family, and the commenters on this blog. I suggest the Sorrowful Mysteries be prayed tonight.
Posted by: daniel | July 24, 2008 7:44 PM
# 1217 that is exactly what is going to happen
Posted by: echidna | July 24, 2008 7:45 PM
John@1179:
Here is why I think Catholics are not outraged. World Youth Day organiser Bishop Anthony Fisher made it quite clear that child abuse is a non-issue for the Catholic Church, shortly before the arrival of the Pope.
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2008/07/16/2305856.htm
It was a comment that revealed how totally crass and insensitive the Church hierarchy is. Ordinary members of the Church need to realize that by remaining part of the church, they are condoning this behaviour.
Would a just God insist that salvation depends on supporting an organization that protects child abusers? The same abuse of authority that leads to child abuse by church leaders is also used to keep their support base, on threat of eternal punishment otherwise.
Don't you understand that the church lost a lot of support in Europe because after world war II, it became obvious that the church that supported Hitler could not be considered an instrument of God. The power of the RC church more or less vanished overnight.
As evidence, consider the current birthrate of Spain and Italy.
Posted by: Nibien | July 24, 2008 7:45 PM
Every time I read one of the religious' posts I feel warm and fuzzy inside just by knowing how intellectually superior I am to them.
Yay.
Posted by: Amanda | July 24, 2008 7:46 PM
You are truly an EVIL man and I pray for your soul. Harming the holy Eucharist and Jesus' body is the most terrible thing one can do and you did it. I pray for your conversion.
Posted by: goddidn't | July 24, 2008 7:46 PM
Sandi said -"I'm hoping the president of Myers' college will see the light and kick his adolescent intolerant ass out the door. Woo hoo!!!!"
Woo hoo!!!!? Sounds like something an adolescent might type.
Posted by: akshelby | July 24, 2008 7:46 PM
James @ 1244
I also believe in sex before marriage. I have a lot of monogamous before marriage sex. Fornication is a wonderful, enjoyable thing! You should try it sometime. You'd be a lot less uptight.
Posted by: Arnaud | July 24, 2008 7:46 PM
Cathy, trust me, the world would definitely NOT be perfect either if everyone practiced chastity outside of marriage! Far from it...
Lanfranc, you'll have to excuse me, some time ago I gave up trying to distinguish between all the different flavours of loons...
Posted by: DingoDave | July 24, 2008 7:47 PM
TG asked:
"Here's a better one. How did he get that nail through the "cracker' without it fragmenting? The communion hots (sic) are very brittle as anyone familiar with them knows."
Stale ones aren't. Or have you never encountered a stale cracker during the course of what must have been your very sheltered life? Now that I think about it, I've got half a box of stale crackers sitting in my kitchen pantry as we speak. Damn, I knew there was something that I forgot to throw out in the trash this week. Thanks for reminding me. You goddists really are an unimaginative lot, aren't you?
(Hat tip to Patricia, for introducing me to the term 'goddist' by the way.)
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 7:47 PM
Erwin- yes it is- obviously you are still going to school. Watch and learn grasshopper, watch and learn. There is no room in the world for idealist
Posted by: E.S.Cragg | July 24, 2008 7:48 PM
#1196 - Katie - "So if this so called "cracker" isn't important then why are all you non Catholics so hell bent on desecrating the Eucharist if it's just a "cracker"?"
Morbid curiosity at the train-wreck that is your (Catholic) response to this completely pointless and irrelevant act.
Think of it as philosophical rubbernecking.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 7:48 PM
I don't. I know catholics who were outraged enough to leave the church. I don't know about other Atheists in these blogs, but what bothers me are the catholic who came here and minimized what the scandal. I expected to see one of them say something along the lines of " The victims shouldn't have been selfish and damaged the church the way they did". I have actually seen a few Catholics say such evil things.
Since I suspect you are Jack from yesterday, I ask the same question...."What do you think is an appropriate punishment for a pedophile?" He vanished after I asked that question, maybe you will too. I hope.
No, just the guilty ones.
Here's a mindfuck for ya....If the things you were thinking and writing of brought up the visual of sexual acts in your mind, guess who is the one who had a sexual reaction because of these words?
BAM
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 7:48 PM
Well, gotta give the catholic church some credit.
It took them about 400 years for apologizing for Galileo and now it took them less than a century to apologize for the Pedophile-priests. Keep up the good work! My grandchildren may actually hear some apologies from the Pope about AIDS in Africa in their lifetime.
Posted by: Steven Mooney | July 24, 2008 7:49 PM
Good job, PZ. Hooray for desecration!
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 7:49 PM
Oh, that was totally photoshopped. You wouldn't dare desecrate The God Delusion.
Posted by: gwrak | July 24, 2008 7:49 PM
Thank you, PZ, that was beautiful.
Posted by: Psycho Atheist | July 24, 2008 7:50 PM
For all of the posters that are assuming the atrocities 70 years ago mentioned by PZ are in reference to the Germans, you might want to check out the widespread extermination of Jews and Gypsies by Croatia (a Catholic country) between 1941 and 1945).
Posted by: Inquisitor | July 24, 2008 7:50 PM
You deserve to die for this. You are lucky that Catholicism, unlike Islam, is not a violent religion. Nonetheless, watch your back.
Posted by: Steve P. | July 24, 2008 7:51 PM
Oh no! Another Steve P! Damn my generic name to hades!
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | July 24, 2008 7:51 PM
"Reality: Many Catholics fornicate and commit adultery like many non-catholics do.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 7:35 PM "
Totally true! and according to the Guttmacher Institute's surveys http://www.guttmacher.org/pubs/journals/3422602.html
27% of women who get abortions are Catholic.
Additionally, 71% of women who have had an abortion identify themselves as religious (27% Catholic, 43% Protestant, 8% other religion). Only 22% of abortions were for women who have NO religion.
So what's up with all those religious people?
Posted by: toothy | July 24, 2008 7:51 PM
Wow, Pz
Your douchocity factor just topped the charts!
Posted by: Kevin DeGraaf | July 24, 2008 7:52 PM
Amanda (#1253),
You must be a special kind of idiot, utterly disconnected from reality, to think that harming a cracker is "the most terrible thing one can do".
How would you compare PZ's cracker abuse with, say, the rape of a child? If you think the Eucharist desecration is worse, please kill yourself as soon as possible.
Posted by: Matt | July 24, 2008 7:52 PM
@#1217:
Most religious people don't know about this "scandal." The ones that do aren't too likely to be interested in science, as they believe that bread is somehow transmogrified into flesh by some old dude. The few that do won't make a huge difference in attendance.
How many people have written to the university to ask he be fired? I'm willing to bet well more than a thousand. Somehow, your forces don't seem so numerous.
Posted by: Michael X | July 24, 2008 7:52 PM
Oh Inquisitor,
You are my favorite type or psychopath. The impotent kind.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 7:52 PM
Holy Ghu's Gonads. That was beautiful.
Posted by: El Herring | July 24, 2008 7:53 PM
Amanda #1253: Your post demonstrates the exact reason why PZ did what he did. "The most terrible thing one can do"? Really? Compared to all the horrendous crimes the Catholic church has committed over the centuries, and is still committing now? And which you obviously condone since by your words you must be a member of this disgusting organisation?
Get a grip. IT'S A CRACKER.
Posted by: Michael X | July 24, 2008 7:54 PM
Yes, Toothy, way to take the high ground and show him up.
Posted by: Evolving Squid | July 24, 2008 7:54 PM
Maria: My God, I believe, I adore, I hope and I love you. I ask forgiveness for those who do not adore, do not hope, and do not love you.
St. Peter: God, you're wanted on line 2,389,666,284
God: Yes?
Maria: Most Holy Trinity, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, I adore you profoundly. I offer you the most precious body, blood, soul, and divinity of Our Lord Jesus Christ, present in all the tabernacles of the world, in reparation for the outrages, sacrileges and indifference with which he is offended. Through the infinite merits of his most Sacred Heart and the Immaculate Heart of Mary, I beg of you the conversion of poor sinners.
God: blah blah. sum up please.
Maria: O my Jesus, I offer all my personal sacrifices, pains and suffers, and penances up for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
God: Thanks Maria. Two points. One, who the fuck are you to ask that I change my plan? I *SENT* Myers to torque you up. I *MADE* him desecrate that stupid cracker. When my son made that "this is my body" speech it was ALLEGORY. In any case, why would I change my plan for you or anyone else. I'm God, it's my plan, and it's sinfully arrogant of you to think that I'm going to change it just *because* Second, about the "Immaculate Heart of Mary"... She wasn't that immaculate after I paid a visit, if you catch my meaning luv.
Posted by: ChrisKG | July 24, 2008 7:54 PM
Um, is this seriously another idiot sending a death threat???
"#1266 You deserve to die for this. You are lucky that Catholicism, unlike Islam, is not a violent religion. Nonetheless, watch your back.
Posted by: Inquisitor | July 24, 2008 7:50 PM"
Un-fucking real?!?!?!
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 7:55 PM
Geese, I now wish I had more sex before marriage! It was only my catholic upbringing that stopped me from doing that. Too bad I saw the light a little too late. Thanks alot, you crazy christian assholes.
I think it's pretty irresponsible to not have sex before marriage. It should be important to know if you and your partner will be compatible in that respect as well as every other facet of a relationship. I hope that the pressure to remain a virgin until marriage stops soon, because that creates an incredible fear of sex in young people and for me, really contributed to my extreme naivety as a young adult, and was definitely responsible for getting me into a couple of tragic situations. Crazy catholics - think about what your beliefs and pressures are doing to your childrens' psyches. Seriously think about it.
Posted by: TimeForABeer | July 24, 2008 7:55 PM
PZ, you deserve an honorary yellow jersey! bravo!
Posted by: DingoDave | July 24, 2008 7:56 PM
TG asked:
"Here's a better one. How did he get that nail through the "cracker' without it fragmenting? The communion hots (sic) are very brittle as anyone familiar with them knows."
Oh, another alternative is to pre-drill a hole through a fresh one with a power drill, and then simply insert the nail through the hole. Then again, it could have been a miracle. : )
There, I hope that sets your mind at ease about the 'mysterious insertion'.
Posted by: MartinDH | July 24, 2008 7:56 PM
Lewandowski spewed:
Really? Does "Neca eos omnes. Deus suos agnoset" ring any bells?
Martin
Posted by: KM | July 24, 2008 7:57 PM
*sigh* I can no longer tell real Xian blather from satire. Maria? Sandi? I hope the majority of it's satirical but, as someone just pointed out, we wish and hope in an imperfect world.
PZ: I was uncertain how you were going to make the "desecration" of a frackin' cracker into a sophisticated and powerful statement without imbuing that cracker with the special meaning you want to deny it. You've exceeded my expectations. Good show!
Posted by: Neil Bakker | July 24, 2008 7:58 PM
"...because he thought it was good sport, because some men are not looking for anything logical, like money, they can't be bought, bullied, reasoned, or negotiated with; some men just want to watch the world burn."
You should recognize that from the movie you recently saw...
God save you.
Posted by: Erwin Blonk | July 24, 2008 7:58 PM
#1258
Dave, I am forever in school, even as my children just are starting to go there. The question was rhethorical, I mistakenly thought that, in the context of the comments, that would be obvious.
There is still an idealist in me, battling it out with a pragmatist. If there is place for that doesn't matter. I'm just a man, no more no less.
Posted by: CJO | July 24, 2008 7:58 PM
Maria,
I will join you in praying the Rosary tonight for Dr Myers, his family, and the commenters on this blog. I suggest the Sorrowful Mysteries be prayed tonight.
Freeeeeeeee Biiiiirrrrrrrd!!!
Posted by: Pim van Riezen | July 24, 2008 7:58 PM
Following this Saga of the Cracker has been an enlightening experience. In discussions about this issue I've spoken to atheists that dismissed it as unnecessary provocation, something that could never lead to any constructive dialogue about the absurdity of religion and the place it has in society. They missed the point. This is not a debate, it never was anything but a demonstration, the lifting of a veil to expose the horrible ways in which we, as humans, are capable of losing our gifts of self reflection and perspective, to replace them with the shortcuts of self delusion and magical thinking. That we're capable of threatening a child while at the same time reflecting on ourselves as good and moral.
Religion has no monopoly on this effect, nor on murder in its name. Tribalism, ideology and personality cults are phenomenons that share the same elements of delusion and magical thinking. The biggest difference, though, is that we, as a species, have at least grown to the point where we mostly recognize the importance of rationality on these matters, even if we needed Nazi Germany to teach us that, and we're not yet always capable of preventing the bloodshed. Religion, however, is the beach head of this struggle. It is a safe haven for magical thinking.
When we demand respect for irrationality, we are hindering our ability to improve, as a species, to a point where we can end all injustice and strife. As a social principle, it leads to exactly the moral relativism that gets lots of Christians so upset -- abhorrent moral codes are suddenly to be accepted if they are claimed to be religious. This is why, as many posters here have observed, the people demanding respect for religion have either not taken their position to its logical conclusion, or they are dishonest about what they are really asking for, which is that they demand respect for their religion.
Growing up in the Netherlands, I realize now that I did not appreciate fully how far reaching the spells people keep themselves under can be. I've grown up in a religious environment and never really had to deal with prejudice or marginalization when I decided the whole racket just sounded like a fairy tale to me. Western Christians to me were just well-meaning and nice people with a harmless delusion and a quaint amount of hipocrisy that was fine by me since none of it really affected me. It's easy in a secular liberal society to be a tea-and-cookies atheist.
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | July 24, 2008 7:59 PM
Hey You Magic Cracker believers--
Don't worry about it, PZ's soul has been saved...
Maria's on it!
O my Jesus, I offer all my personal sacrifices, pains and suffers, and penances up for love of you, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for sins committed against the Sacred Heart of Jesus and the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
Posted by: Maria | July 24, 2008 7:41 PM
Case closed, show is over! Buh-Bye!
[snark]
Posted by: Baratos | July 24, 2008 7:59 PM
PZ, the internet needs more people like you. Most trolls make people angry by making up alot of lies and claiming to believe it all.
But you? You make people angry by telling them the TRUTH. I am not sure if that makes you a master troll or some kind of anti-troll.
Posted by: Evolving Squid | July 24, 2008 8:00 PM
I was hoping for a rosewood toothpick through the cracker - very appropriate for the undead... but a nail is just as good.
Posted by: AgnoAtheist | July 24, 2008 8:01 PM
The Country Shrink (1218)
Some Psychological Aspects of Authortarianism
1. Diminuation of the other
"Little Paul", I believed that til I was 12, 3rd or 4th or 12 rate professor
2. Diminuation of self
Snatching away security blanket, ripping head off bunny, "I am so sad", "Forgive PZ, forgive me"
3. Punishment without perspective
Death threats, threats to family, desire to incarcerate and excommunicate
4. Hyper concern with decorum while unable to acknowledge any arguments or engage
5. Bleecking our long posts from authority figures without comment
6. Excessive concern for legalities or rule breaking, and
7. Inability to articulate core beliefs.
By the way-- Thanks PZ, not bad for a 3rd rate professor :)
Posted by: Michael X | July 24, 2008 8:01 PM
Mr. Bakker,
If you think this was some unprovoked stunt, you have been paying zero attention.
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | July 24, 2008 8:01 PM
So, since Maria's got it all under control between PZ and God, the anti-PZ here are now officially persecuting an innocent man!
Posted by: Caveat | July 24, 2008 8:02 PM
What would Jesus do? Laugh his ass off and buy you a beer, no doubt. He was a bit of a rebel too, according to the tales they tell.
I'm relieved. I actually expected to see them floating in a steaming bowl of spicy chili and being eaten with a fork.
Posted by: FO | July 24, 2008 8:03 PM
Apparently someone's still living in the Dark Ages. Well, fuck you, fuck your cracker, and fuck your pedophile religion. Even Jack Chick has it right about your beloved Jeebus Cracker:http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp
"Holy Papa" my ass!
Posted by: Nic Nicholson | July 24, 2008 8:03 PM
Golf clap! Dogma makes me catatonic.
Posted by: Kel | July 24, 2008 8:03 PM
The problem with using chastity to combat AIDS is that sex is a natural drive for our species. Yes a condom breaks a small percentage of the time, but chastity gets broken a lot of the time. Chastity fails because having sex is natural.
Posted by: Jeremy | July 24, 2008 8:04 PM
Bravo, PZ. I especially like the inclusion of "The God Delusion". It was a pleasant surprise.
Posted by: George | July 24, 2008 8:04 PM
PZ, my tests confirm that the cracker remains unchanged during mass. It stays a cracker, nothing more.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 24, 2008 8:05 PM
Please show me the flaw in my argument. John Lewandowski
You already know it: the church has failed in 2000 years to enforce "chastity" and hence eliminate sexually transmitted diseases. You've had your chance. You've failed, and exacted an immense cost in human misery while doing so. Get out of the way and let those who actually care about human suffering, and are trying to reduce it, get on with their work.
Posted by: Voice 0'Reason | July 24, 2008 8:05 PM
Yes, I fondly remember all those classic Bond villains who cackled dementedly while mutilating baked goods. They just don't make 'em like that anymore!Not to be confused with necessary gratuitous evil.
(Save me a seat at the table in Hell, P.Z. I'll be the one assaulting Girl Scout cookies and stomping on pita chips.)
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 8:05 PM
Murky @ # 1232
Yes, JFK was Catholic & from the information I have found, Kennedy wore his faith lightly. His sister Eunice once said he was "casual about religious rituals and observances," and "a little less convinced about some things than the rest of us."
That would appear to include transubstantiation.
Posted by: TGrinnalds | July 24, 2008 8:06 PM
Thank you for the courage to attack the ridiculous. That it requires courage rather than just a sense of humor says all to much about the mental age of humanity. Just think how many Christians take the eucharist, actually believing the wafer is the body of Christ and the wine is his blood, and yet have a total mental disconnect from the conclusion that they are practicing cannibalism like the most primitive bone-in-the- nose New Guinean of centuries past.
Posted by: Grammar RWA | July 24, 2008 8:06 PM
I'll admit it. My cock is throbbing hard at the thought of priests in fuzzy handcuffs. But Lewandowski, of course they'll have a safe word! ("Allahu Akbar!")
Posted by: melior | July 24, 2008 8:06 PM
A fine essay, and a noble gesture for truth.
Bah, I lost track of the author in these many-thousands comments threads, but props to whoever said:
"I will reason for you."
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 8:06 PM
Dear Christians. Forgive him.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 8:07 PM
Hardly comparable. Would I leave a political party if it systematically aided and abetted child-rapists amongst its membership? Absolutely! In a heartbeat. Wouldn't think twice about it.
We're not "judging everyone based on a few bad apples". We are judging the institution of the Roman Catholic Church based on its current and past institutional behaviour (relocating rapists), and its institutional policy of non-cooperation with law enforcement investing child-rape as revealed by its current well-documented behaviour and leaked policy documents which have not been repudiated by them.
Mother Teresa was a product of Vatican marketing. The vast bulk of the money she received, some of it stolen, was used to build convents for her own self-aggrandisement, and not to help the poor. Padre Pio was a fraud who produced his own stigmata using acid. Pope John XXIII knew this, but John Paul II saw him as a marketing opportunity for the Church in Italy. John Henry Newman is a peculiar choice, usually a shibboleth for members of Opus Dei. Are you a member?
Only if you believe the legends created by the Vatican and sympathetic media. If you dig a little deeper, unfortunately, they both turn out to be frauds.Posted by: Hessenroots | July 24, 2008 8:07 PM
@ Pete Rooke #221
I gave my version of the counter to your analogies from your post (#310) on # 548. No counter approach or did you stop trolling?
Sufficient or are you working on new ones to 'baffle' us with?
Posted by: jeff | July 24, 2008 8:07 PM
/me cheers!
thank you PZ, for saying what needs to be said, and for not backing down.
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | July 24, 2008 8:08 PM
"Chastity fails because having sex is natural.
Posted by: Kel | July 24, 2008 8:03 PM "
psssst! not if you're doing it right
[had to say it before someone else did]
;-P
Posted by: black wolf | July 24, 2008 8:08 PM
John Lewandowski,
are you aware of the crimen sollicitationis?
For unaware readers, this church law specifies that among other misconduct, sexual abuse of church members is to be treated with utmost secrecy. The Pope has confirmed the prime importance of this law. John, I think we all believe that many Catholics are outraged at the acts of sexul perversion - but what are you going to do when church-internal law states that any revealing of such an act by any church member leads to automatic excommunication? This law means that transferring pedophiles to another parish in secrecy supercedes the need for making any public statement even implying that such a crime has even taken place.
How about not being a member of an organization that systematically and institutionally covers up crimes of its members before considering to informing the public of these crimes?
Several high-ranking Church officials have resigned over this issue - not because of the abuse but because they were caught by secular law enforcement when trying to cover up the abuse cases by withholding and destroying evidence.
The crimen sollicitationis has been in place for more than the last four decades and still is. It was issued in response to allegations of sexual abuse, and the Church has been aware of this problem for over 250 years.
Posted by: TGrinnalds | July 24, 2008 8:08 PM
Thank you for the courage to attack the ridiculous. That it requires courage rather than just a sense of humor says all to much about the mental age of humanity. Just think how many Christians take the eucharist, actually believing the wafer is the body of Christ and the wine is his blood, and yet have a total mental disconnect from the conclusion that they are practicing cannibalism like the most primitive bone-in-the- nose New Guinean of centuries past.
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 8:08 PM
I'm attempting to convert, can someone post me a link to a Christian blog?
Posted by: BadMA | July 24, 2008 8:09 PM
It would be helpful if some of the Catholic commenters actually read PZ's post. How can you disagree with a position if you don't even know what it is? (That would lead to learning something, and we all know how dangerous knowledge is.)
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 8:09 PM
Correction to my #1306: s/investing/investigating/
Posted by: Alexander | July 24, 2008 8:10 PM
Excellent post, especially that last paragraph.
May I simply say I hope no crazy actually tries anything on you or your loved ones over a cracker?
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 24, 2008 8:10 PM
@ #1266
We need a new word for people who post here just to make the side they're presumably taking look bad. I propose "COINTELPOE's".
Posted by: Synaptix | July 24, 2008 8:12 PM
Can desecrating a cracker get me excommunicated? That would be hella dope.
Posted by: delosgatos | July 24, 2008 8:13 PM
Why do so many of you assume that we Catholics were NOT outraged by the sexual abuse scandal?
Posted by: John Lewandowski
I don't doubt that you were. But you persist in nonsensical assertions that being catholic, or christian, or deist, or religious in some form makes persons somehow "morally better".
Practicing some religion doesn't make one "more moral". Actions speak louder than words or rituals.
And how did you speak out in outrage, John Lewandowski? Did you write a stern letter to the bishop demanding that the church stop covering up for pedophiles and turn them over to the police? Did you start withholding your tithes? Did you raise the issue over dinner with your church fellows?
Actions speak louder than words. What actions did you take, in your outrage? Was it more action, more time spent, than you've spent posting here?
Posted by: Jim1138 | July 24, 2008 8:13 PM
Obviously, the Great Cracker Desecration is Donahue's gift from Jesus. It allows him to distract Catholics from the Church's atrocities such as
Concordat between Hitler and Cardinal Pacelli (Pope Pious XII)
The Inquisition
Magdalene Asylums
Why do Catholics continue to support their murderous institutions?
Posted by: Dexter Fox | July 24, 2008 8:13 PM
If you look closely, you can see an image of the Virgin Mary in the banana peel spots.
Posted by: Eve | July 24, 2008 8:14 PM
^ Oh, for fuck's sake, "Saint" Michael, get over yourself:
He disrespectfully tortured and made fun of a CRACKER.
No one and no thing alive was harmed in the course of this experiment. The only evil thing that has emerged is your insistence on valuing an inanimate object, a piece of hardened flour and water, over living, breathing human beings.
The only evil people to show their faces in all this are theists like you who insist on valuing a cracker over living, breathing human beings.
Quite frankly, if your god exists and he would send someone to horrible, awful, unimaginable torture for all eternity for no other reason than lack of respect for a cracker, then he's a disgusting piece of filth who does not deserve any respect in the first place.
Heck, even when I was a xian (well, more a deist, really), I thought this catholic belief re: "holy" crackers at best laughable and at worst, despicable in its, dare I repeat myself yet again, evil valuing of crackers over living, breathing human beings.
Posted by: DingoDave | July 24, 2008 8:14 PM
Ref. #1260 Posted by Rayven Alandria:
"I don't know about other Atheists in these blogs, but what bothers me are the catholic[s] who came here and minimized what the scandal. I expected to see one of them say something along the lines of " The victims shouldn't have been selfish and damaged the church the way they did". I have actually seen a few Catholics say such evil things."
Behold the words of our esteemed Bishop Anthony Fisher;
Sex abuse victims 'cranky', says Bishop
Jano Gibson
July 16, 2008
The co-ordinator of [Catholic] World Youth Day, Bishop Anthony Fisher, today responded to a question about Cardinal George Pell's handling of a sexual abuse case by saying people are "dwelling crankily ... on old wounds".
His comments came after ABC's Lateline last night reported on Anthony Foster, whose daughters were raped by Melbourne priest Kevin O'Donnell when they were in primary school.
Asked about the broadcast, Bishop Fisher told this morning's World Youth Day press conference: "The cardinal and I were otherwise occupied last night enjoying the youth festival so we didn't see the Lateline story...All I've seen is the reports in the newspapers today...Happily, I think most of Australia was enjoying [and] delighting in the beauty and goodness of these young people and the hope for us doing these sorts of things better in the future, as we saw last night, rather than dwelling crankily, as a few people are doing, on old wounds."
- FairfaxDigital
http://www.watoday.com.au/national/sex-abuse-victims-cranky-says-bishop-20080716-3fs9.html
Nuff said?
Posted by: wÒÓ† | July 24, 2008 8:14 PM
It's my understanding that in the pornographic film "Ass Clowns," Jesus descends from the cross to have sex with the Virgin Mary.
Just thought I'd throw that out there.
Posted by: Cloud121 | July 24, 2008 8:15 PM
It's so strange when people come on here and get upset, and then they accuse non-religious individuals of being intolerant.
I don't know but aren't these some of the social rules that we live by?
You have a right to your superstition of choice.
You have a right to keep it to yourself.
You also have a right to come out and tell people about your superstition.
But you don't have a right to prohibit people from criticizing and mocking your beliefs.
The same goes with wearing checkered pants.
Posted by: Norman Doering | July 24, 2008 8:15 PM
SDG wrote:
Wow! I had no idea you sucked that bad at holding your church accountable.
Posted by: E.V. | July 24, 2008 8:15 PM
According to John L.'s blog, he gets a chub on for Michelle Malkin. Ahh, this explains all. He's a NeoCon.
Posted by: Catholics, stop being so hysterical! | July 24, 2008 8:16 PM
I've been following this cracker affair for a while now, and I'd like to express my support for you, Mr. Myers. This last post was excellent! And to those of you who disagree: it's just a frakkin' cracker!
Posted by: enigma | July 24, 2008 8:17 PM
Well done PZ, I love your addition of The God Delusion and the banana peel. Now all we need is a rube goldberg cracker desecration device.
Posted by: mikeg | July 24, 2008 8:18 PM
well, that's all well and good but could you please compost? thanks
Posted by: Mau de Katt | July 24, 2008 8:19 PM
What, no ripped pages from the Bible? Why did you let Fundagelical Christians off the hook? They regard the Bible as nearly as sacred as Catholics regard the magic cracker. (Or at least they take desecration of it as ill as Catholics do their cookie.)
I'm a little disappointed at your lack of scientific thoroughness here, PZ....
(heh)
Posted by: E.V. | July 24, 2008 8:19 PM
Someone above pointed out:
Fr. J: misspelled ALTAR
HE'S A LYING FAKE.
that is all
Posted by: Michael X | July 24, 2008 8:19 PM
HOLY SHIT! Did Woot just SAY something?!?!?!
Posted by: Ella Rache | July 24, 2008 8:19 PM
Wow. It's been quite some time since I've seen someone as inept at making analogy as this Pete Rooke character. And then he gets all pious, assuming he's made some big mentally challenging construct that has left the rational thinkers speechless. It's been so long... I'd say not since Ray Comfort. OK, So... not that long, after all. And COMfort was just as smug before the idiocy of his analogies were laid bare by... let's call it... the entire Internet.
The fatal flaw with Pete's little puzzles is that he imbues each of his analogies with his own dogma and 'true believer' moralism. He just can't think outside of his God-dominated box. He even goes so far as to include a 'sacred book' in a discussion whose primary gist is 'nothing is sacred'. Sorry, dear, no one's 'refuting' your analogies because they're more akin to the babbling of a 10 year old than a rational-thinking adult. ALl of your little fantasies involve personal harm to an individual, not perceived harm to a religious relic.
It's a whole lot of begging the question wrapped in false dilemmas. With a chorus of strawmen singing special pleadings. Pete... you are NOT the great debater you think you are. You're not even average.
As for this being a hoax... seriously... how hard do you think it would be for Myers to get his hands on a consecrated wafer?
At any rate, well done, P.Z. I very much liked the 'dusting of hands and that's that' finality of this.
Posted by: El Herring | July 24, 2008 8:19 PM
Honestly, how many times do we have to spell it out?
Please see my post #1213 for the answer to that one.
No, better idea. To save you the trouble of scrolling back up, I'll repeat it word for word, and continue until it sinks in:
Any organisation that protects child molesters within its ranks as a matter of documented policy deserves absolutely no respect regardless of anyone's faith, and should be brought crashing down and destroyed by any means possible, and the perpetrators and protectors of these crimes should be brought to justice with all the weight of international law.
I'm off to bed (1PM in the UK). Anyone who wants to quote me on that, be my guest. The point really does need to be hammered home to these morons.
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | July 24, 2008 8:20 PM
Dear Christians. Forgive him.
Posted by: HolyRusk | July 24, 2008 8:06 PM
-----------------------------------------------
Geez, Holyrusk, didn't you do your homework? Maria's already on it. She prayed for him publically (hmmm... like the Pharisees perhaps?) and of course God listens to you guys, so..... PZ is already forgiven.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 8:20 PM
According to John L.'s blog, he gets a chub on for Michelle Malkin.
Aw, come on. That's just gross and utterly uncalled-for.
Couldn't read that far in...far in...ewww, nasty.
Posted by: Miguel | July 24, 2008 8:21 PM
Good work, PZ!
Loved your rant about the evil of the catholic church. Keep up the good work!
Posted by: melior | July 24, 2008 8:21 PM
I have devised an ingenious experiment designed to acquire evidence once and for all, for or against the null hypothesis in a test of the miracle of transubstantiation.
If a prayed-upon cracker does not remain fully wheat-based, than when gently sauteed and upon addition of flour to the drippings it shall be possible to produce a delicious gravy from it.
To wit: Gravy -- Jeebus. No gravy -- no Jeebus.
I request no compensation for this breakthrough, only that any researchers conducting further experimentation in this area provide appropriate citation to my supporting work.
Posted by: BMurray | July 24, 2008 8:21 PM
I'm disappointed that an American flag was not in your bin with the other inert symbols.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 8:21 PM
Sandi @ #1222 says
Fine Sandi, enlighten us turnips. How exactly do you dermine the validity of the consecration of a wafer resulting in its transubstantiation? How do you arrive at that logical conclusion that the wafer then transforms into the physical flesh of Jesus, or is it the essence of Jesus?
Posted by: Jeff | July 24, 2008 8:22 PM
I don't really anything to add to all the words of support for PZ. But I just had to be part of the epic 1300+ post comment thread.
Posted by: Mom | July 24, 2008 8:22 PM
Wow. So back in 1977, when we were rehearsing a community sing in the catholic church and we broke into the crackers for snacks... that was like a bad thing? Was it just as bad, worse, or no big thing when we did that 20 years later at a wedding in a United Methodist church? If I get borned again at a Baptist church does that erase my sins? of crackery? Or does that make me a cracker?
Or if I convert to catholic (catholosism? catholism? cathololicsy?... whatever)if I convert, can I confess and wipe it away? Or am I just covered for life? I'm so confused. And all this talking about crackers has gotten me hungry... anyone got a wafer?
Posted by: Andy | July 24, 2008 8:23 PM
He did it. I didn't think he ever would. PZ Myers. . .has jumped the shark.
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 24, 2008 8:23 PM
Yikeies!
What a load of hate these Christians practice. OK, not all of these Christians are practicing hate. Some have made it a profession, apparently (William A. Donohue reference, and possibly Father J).
I forget if it was this thread or a previous cracker thread, but someone mentioned that the laws of the U.S. are based on the ten commandments (though the way most Christians follow them, you'd think they're only suggestions). Here's a thought, looking at the list of ten, I find only four of them that relate to anything in current law. That's only 40 percent of the list.
Second, looking again at that list of ten, I notice that the four that U.S. law seem related to are universal - they are in the laws of all nations, past and present, theistic and non-theistic. OK, sometimes one of those four is left out. By my analysis, and referencing precedent, I have to believe that the ten commandments only peripherally influenced the U.S. laws at best.
Following the Roman Catholic method of listing the ten commandments, these are the four that made it into U.S. law: 5 (don't kill people), 6 (no screwing around - though I think this is a civil matter, not criminal), 7 (don't steal - though some Biblical scholars debate which things are prohibited from being stolen and generally don't think this means all forms of stealing (and most likely is meant to reference kidnapping ...)), and 8 (don't lie about your neighbor). The rest are not part of U.S. law. And there is a lot of U.S. law not based on any part of the ten commandments (like trial by jury, right to free speech, and no religious test for holding office, among many others).
No, the U.S. was not founded on the ten commandments. Not even close.
And damnit! It's just a friggen cracker!
JBS
Posted by: Kewois | July 24, 2008 8:24 PM
Do you dare to do the same with a piece of cloth called "the USA flag" and another "piece of paper" the American Constitution???
Kewois
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 8:25 PM
about comment 1330:
As for myself, I'm writing about Catholics on this posting because the posting deals directly with the Catholic church.
I actually view all forms of nonsense equally and I'm sure other Atheists on this site share this view as well.
Posted by: Bearinslc | July 24, 2008 8:25 PM
I've always thought if funny when you "desecrate" a religious persons "god" why they always got in such an uproar.
If they really believed in god, if they really knew the truth, if they really believed. They would be contented that they are a saved people and not worry about all the "heathens"
You would think that they understood that god would take care of themselves and not worry about this "over dramatic" unbealiver.
One would think.... but I do think. I think that none of them have enough faith and courage and understanding and knowledge of their religion.
The more they threaten you, them more they are afraid your right.
Of course as an unbeliever you have a full knowledge (as I do) that's it's crap and have no worries that "god" will strike you down.
and if he did.... well what a little prick, I don't want to believe in your god anyway.
Posted by: Michael X | July 24, 2008 8:26 PM
You're kidding right Kewois? You can't be that dull.
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 8:27 PM
My question to the Christians amoung us:
If the Eucharist really is the body of Christ and Catholics know the difference between unblessed and blessed wafers.. Why are they yelling hoax? They should see it is obviously Jesus lying in the trash can.
Posted by: Stephen Hand | July 24, 2008 8:28 PM
Talk about Hate crimes! Is this the sort of professor the University of Minnesota prizes? All your sad lies about Catholics and Jews are found in Jone's new magnum opus.
http://www.culturewars.com/Reviews/JRSAd.pdf
I feel bad for one who has so much hate he can't distinguish popes and an Adolph Hitler.
But the Bosheviks, you are quiet about them:
http://stephenhand.blogspot.com/2008/02/holocaust-and-holodomor-origins-of-anti.html
Posted by: Christopher | July 24, 2008 8:29 PM
"To accept everything is an exercise, to understand everything is a strain. The poet only desires exaltation and expansion, a world to stretch himself in. The poet only asks to get his head into the heavens. It is the logician who seeks to get the heavens into his head. And it is his head that splits."
-G.K Chesterton
Posted by: fatherdaddy | July 24, 2008 8:29 PM
All Hail Evil! Could someone please pass the crackers?
Posted by: Brian | July 24, 2008 8:29 PM
I just asked Mister Shea to address the charges that you raise. In the meantime, I must say it again: shame on your desecration!
Posted by: melior | July 24, 2008 8:29 PM
Truly this a time of miracles.
Posted by: BMurray | July 24, 2008 8:29 PM
Re: 1349
Catholics practically invented plausible deniability.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 8:30 PM
What is this, playground double dare? Nah nah nah, nah nah. I dare you to eat this black thing or you are a chicken.
Posted by: dude | July 24, 2008 8:30 PM
and in an extension of logic, Myers thinks painting swastikas on synagogues is okay.
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | July 24, 2008 8:31 PM
"I'm attempting to convert, can someone post me a link to a Christian blog?
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 8:08 PM "
You bet!
http://www.landoverbaptist.org/2008/july/dobson.html
or, for some real fun: http://www.godhatesfags.com/
Posted by: Sac | July 24, 2008 8:32 PM
Just one more voice in the fray - PZ, you rock.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 8:33 PM
I suppose Bosheviks might be Russian skeptics.
"So, Yuri, what do you think of transubstantiation?"
"Well, Ivan, I say 'bosh!' to that!"
Posted by: Bart | July 24, 2008 8:33 PM
Finally, the resolution! Been waiting for that, you know! Hiya, godless lurker here! Hope you're careful though, Yankland doesn't seem quite as forgiving as Norfolk (UK) when it comes to holy shit (ok, pun intended I guess).
Posted by: rebelest | July 24, 2008 8:33 PM
PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ! PZ!
Posted by: Michael X | July 24, 2008 8:33 PM
Your logic, dude, speaks for itself.
Posted by: Trolleyfish | July 24, 2008 8:33 PM
Bravo, PZ. Bravo.
I must admit, I was worried (a bit) that you were going to do something truly outrageous with the cracker. But I think you ended this very tactfully. Plus, the tie-in with the historical persecution of Jews by the Catholic church and its miscreants was relevant and nicely done.
Funny how the Church hasn't evolved much in the last 7 centuries.
Congratulations, you classy Catholics. You've been pwn3d.
Posted by: Ella Rache | July 24, 2008 8:33 PM
That's really succinct, El Herring. I'll join the chorus. :)
Any organisation that protects child molesters within its ranks as a matter of documented policy deserves absolutely no respect regardless of anyone's faith, and should be brought crashing down and destroyed by any means possible, and the perpetrators and protectors of these crimes should be brought to justice with all the weight of international law.
Posted by: AngoAtheist | July 24, 2008 8:34 PM
Please, will a Catholic defender please explain since Jesus could not have been speaking metaphorically about eating his body and drinking his blood, why are there not one billion Catholics walking around with eye patches?
"If your right eye affend thee, pluck it out."
Posted by: melior | July 24, 2008 8:34 PM
#1357:
Dude, I'm sure however you want to decorate your room is OK with him.
Posted by: Elijah | July 24, 2008 8:34 PM
Jennie,
Catholics do not claim to able to tell whether a host is consecrated or not. I suspect that some are 'yelling hoax' because they just really wish it were and aren't sure what to do in the face of such aggressive disrespect.
Posted by: maggie | July 24, 2008 8:34 PM
May God Almighty have mercy on your soul. I will keep you in my prayers for your return to God for your judgement
and all you other people who join him in this descecration, may God have mercy on you.
Posted by: Inky | July 24, 2008 8:35 PM
Kewois #1345:
Yes, I've no doubt PZ would not care whether he throws out a piece of cloth or not. It's a freaking symbol. This supposedly sacred cloth was probably made in China.
And for the American Constitution, I've no doubt that he wouldn't hesitate throwing out a PRINTED COPY of the Constitution. The *original* Constitution is a historical document and should be preserved as such.
If there was an *original* Bible, or, for example, historical artifacts such as the Dead Sea Scrolls, I would think the academician in PZ would recognize the value, regardless of what's printed on it.
Idiot.
Posted by: Julie Stahlhut | July 24, 2008 8:35 PM
This is a question about which I'm genuinely curious (never thought of it until a friend brought it up a few years back:)
How can a theist of any stripe believe that it's possible to hurt God? That makes absolutely no sense.
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 8:36 PM
RE: Cathy in Seattle post# 1358
Wonderful! Thank you!!
I'm going to go convert theists to atheism immediately. I feel do onto others, as they do on to you right?!
Posted by: Michael X | July 24, 2008 8:36 PM
Thank you maggie. I'm sure she'll treat us all very kindly.
Posted by: God | July 24, 2008 8:37 PM
It's really not that big of a deal to Me. Although all of the fuss and bother and screaming is amusing.
Posted by: Another Primate | July 24, 2008 8:37 PM
P.Z.. That was great.. The last paragraph was beautiful!!!! Cheers my friend and thanks for fighting the good fight...
Posted by: mezzobuff | July 24, 2008 8:38 PM
Right on PZ! Thanks for some important history I wasn't aware of. Wondering how high this thread will go.... then lets back to the important things like Batman-gate.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 8:39 PM
what a weak attempt. thanks for giving me further reason to convert to Catholicism.
and by the way, nice job with the photoshop. you get your kid to do that? pathetic. but what would you expect from a professor that's teaching at what is essentially a community college.
Posted by: Laughin_Guy | July 24, 2008 8:39 PM
Just seen on Craigs list:
Position wanted
50 something former associate professor of Biology seeks position. References unnecessary, unattainable.
*laughing*
Posted by: monique | July 24, 2008 8:39 PM
Long time lurker, first time poster. A thought provoking blog entry and many thanks for it. Wish I could think of something illuminating to add to the thread but alas..
I went to a catholic grade school (nun-free) but since I wasn't baptized, I was unable to take part in the ceremonies that prepared the rest of the kids for communion. I just sat in the pew during mass and everyone else got up for their wafers. I didn't really feel left out of something special though. I just flipped through the hymnal and daydreamed, probably.
I don't recall ever being told the wafer was actual body. I always thought the wine and wafer were substitutions for the real things, not magically whispered over in a back room to become the real things. Never occurred to me that people might react as if someone was actually taking a bite out of Jesus instead of swallowing what had to be a pretty bland appetizer before lunch, and not very filling at that.
I just wasn't cut out to be catholic.
Posted by: Thomas A. | July 24, 2008 8:39 PM
PZ couldn't do anything to the US Constitution that would be any worse than what the current administration has already done to it.
Posted by: Cathy in Seattle | July 24, 2008 8:40 PM
"and another "piece of paper" the American Constitution???
Kewois"
Sorry - too late, Bush and Cheney have already used that document for toilet papaer.
Posted by: mandydax | July 24, 2008 8:41 PM
"Drink more Ovaltine." D:
It was a very well made point, though I'm afraid that for most wackaloons, it will be for naught and they're going to continue the hatemail.
*Standing ovation* Bravo, Professor Myers!
Posted by: maggie | July 24, 2008 8:41 PM
May God Almighty have mercy on your soul. I will keep you in my prayers for your return to God for your judgement
and all you other people who join him in this descecration, may God have mercy on you.
Posted by: Fun Lovin' Atheist | July 24, 2008 8:41 PM
In amongst all this christ-hatin', I think we atheists DO need to acknowledge one good thing the Christians have done for us all.
They made sex dirty.
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 8:41 PM
RE: Elijah post #1368
Oh, Elijah, I wish it were true. Contrary to your statement, there have been many Catholics that have posted on related blogs stating that the Eucharist IS the body of Christ, and they know it is. They have been challenged to a test repeatedly in which a blessed wafer is mixed with unblessed wafers and they choose the body of christ out of the pile.
Every time a scenario like that has been offered to them to prove their ability, they state blasphemy.
I've seen it atleast twice while watching this circus unfold.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 8:41 PM
Just seen on Craigs list:
Position wanted
50 something former associate professor of Biology seeks position. References unnecessary, unattainable.
*laughing*
now that is funny...........................
Posted by: Michael X | July 24, 2008 8:42 PM
Right Elijah. Such terrible disrespect for people to lose their collective minds and send threats to a young man who wished to show a cracker to a friend. I suppose if I were wondering what to do in the face of such disrespect, I would act in solidarity with the young man. I might even go through with what the violent mob so badly wished to suppress by claims of future violence.
But I suppose we all have our own paths to follow.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 8:42 PM
I believe that earns you a latæ sententiæ (automatic) excommunication reserved to the Apostolic See (only forgivable by the Pope himself).But you don't have to go that far. All you have to do is doubt certain elements of Dogma to get a latæ sententiæ excommunication. You don't ever even have to say anything, even thinking that, for example, (IIRC: it's been a while since I read Canon Law) the Virgin Mary might not, in fact, have been a virgin or might not, herself, have been conceived without Original Sin or might not, in fact, have risen bodily into Heaven (the Assumption) gets the automatic wheat-zombie cannibal-porn banhammer.
Most Catholics don't know how whacky their own religion is.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 8:42 PM
Laughin_Guy, oh go suck on a lemon. PZ is not going anywhere. In fact, all this traffic you helped him earn only goes to promote him.
Posted by: black wolf | July 24, 2008 8:44 PM
#1222 "Myers Groupies" simply can't think logically. " and "You folks just don't know how to determine the validity or invalidity of premises and discern logical or illogical conclusions."
Yeah, all of us have tried to get backstage on PZs concerts, have faught over getting PZs autographs and tried to get in bed with him. You caught us. You, who gets wet when you see an old man in a dress.
Our logic is also deeply flawed, much more than the logic of concluding that dead people enter crackers because an old book says so. Less logical than assaulting people for taking such crackers from their intended place. Less logical than threatening people who do that with death, their livelihood, their place of education and their academic future. Less logical than equating damaging a cracker with murdering millions of Jews or ridiculing Jewish victims of that mass murder. You caught us on that too.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 8:44 PM
And stop sockpuppeting as Ed.
Posted by: The Ems | July 24, 2008 8:44 PM
Am I the only one that got the Monty Python spanish inquisition skit reference?
Posted by: Danny | July 24, 2008 8:45 PM
Good idea. I haven't desecrated my consecrated wafer, it's just there at my desk. Maybe someday I can think of an elaborate plot to dispose of it. :)
Posted by: Lamuella | July 24, 2008 8:46 PM
"PZ said: Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything.
Even evolution ???"
Especially evolution.
Scientists question evolution every day. They wouldn't be scientists if they didn't.
The interesting thing about scientists is that if you came along with a piece of actual and verifiable evidence that a central part of their theory was incorrect, they would be delighted.
Posted by: Buffy | July 24, 2008 8:46 PM
"As a Christian it is an insult for anyone to call my beliefs stupid shit. I have respected every religion and every idea for years."
Considering what many Christians say about LGBT people, atheists, people of other religions, etc. (never mind what they do to them) they have no room to whine when somebody says anything about their beliefs. They sh*t all over *people* and have the nerve to whine because their *beliefs* are being maligned. Get real.
Posted by: IngoB | July 24, 2008 8:47 PM
Interesting that a nail was used for this. Whether this was a conscious play on the crucifixion or not, it goes to show that Christian imagery lingers in the mind long after Christian faith has been denied.
Prof. Myers' act is a kind of madness, but not in the sense of outright irrationality: atheism may be wrong, but it can be intellectually defended - thus also the "it's just a cracker" line is false, but certainly defensible. It's rather the kind of madness that appears in ripping the drawing of a three-year-old from his parent's fridge, and tearing it to shreds because it's "just not art" according to some sophisticated aesthetic standard. The madness lies in the destruction of what another person finds personally and emotionally meaningful, and indeed beautiful, not in the "objective" judgment that the drawing is so ugly it needs destroying.
It is, according to Catholic teaching, quite possible that Prof. Myers is not culpable before God of the grave sin that he appears to have committed. The relevant technical term is "invincible ignorance": Basically, he is then not in a state where he could still truly comprehend what he has done, even though he is clearly still able to parrot the relevant information.
However, Prof. Myers is culpable before man of entirely unnecessary and essentially unprovoked insult to those of his fellow citizens who happen to be believing Catholics. One does not need to be a believer to find Prof. Myers' deed uncivilized and disruptive - as a matter of fact, even so if this host in the end turns out to not have been consecrated. Given the highly public nature of the act, and given that Prof. Myers works at a public institution with a code of conduct, it will be interesting to see whether his employer will let him plead ignorance as readily as God...
Personally, I hope that Prof. Myers indeed acts in the mistaken belief of being a modern Socrates using shock tactics to free the ignorant from their delusions. While that is delusional itself (objectively so, since the response of the believers is quite the opposite, and that was entirely predictable), it would merely be the sin of pride turning his presumably considerable intelligence into stupidity. It would be worse in one way if he was just playing to his crowd of atheist admirers, worse in another if he was desecrating a host because he actually believed it to be Christ.
Perhaps the greatest damage Prof. Myers' has done is not to mock and violate Christ personally. God is infinitely just but merciful, and so no more than his sincere repentance at any time during his future life will be needed to ultimately erase this event out of history for him and God. Rather, it is in provoking vicious Catholic reactions where much damage is being done. Anger can be virtuous if governed by prudence, but it is so easy to turn outrage into hate. Christians need not be doormats for atheistic Rumpelstilzchens, rather they should seek justice "wise as serpents but gentle as doves".
If you made it this far, you also may be interested in Prof. Scruton's essay on how a rational person may come to consider religion - just to raise a bit of awareness that religion can be sought out of rational motives.
Posted by: Stephanurus | July 24, 2008 8:47 PM
Would Bill Donohue, a Catholic priest, the Pope, or any ordinary Catholic be able to distinguish a consecrated cracker from an unconsecrated one? Is there a test that can be done or an incantation that make the distinction? If not, then what PZ has in his trash can of real value is a compostable banana peel, some paper, and some pressed wheat.
Stephanurus
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 8:47 PM
Damn, here I spent the day dissertating, and then having dinner with a friend I haven't seen in quite some time. And I missed out on all the, well, nothing.
Wow, the trash got taken out, with crackers and pages....and no people died as a result. How shocking.
-----
(value of human life) > (value of cracker)
Too bad the "culture of life" folks don't quite get that.
-----
and to all the "we'll pray for you" fuckwits: just keep talking to yourself. That way at least something is listening.
Posted by: Emmet Caulfield | July 24, 2008 8:47 PM
And may the King of the Leprechauns have mercy on your ftang. I will keep you in my worthless musings for your return to the King of the Leprechauns and all your coreligionists who join you in this flapdoodle, may the King of the Leprechauns have mercy on you.
Posted by: Inky | July 24, 2008 8:49 PM
Julie (#1371):
Yeah, it'd rather odd, no? The guy can make the universe and colossal squid but can't defend a helpless cracker?
Frankly, I think the reason why these people are so vehement is because they have doubts, and it brings great fear. Many people have fear of the unknown. The Bible conveniently tells you all the answers to those existential questions so that you don't need bother thinking for yourself. It's best not to think about it.
The problem is, if everyone was really honest with themselves, they'd admit that they have doubts, or have had doubts. I don't know if that makes them feel guilty, and they try to compensate or rectify that by being overly protective of what they almost don't believe if they actually stopped to think about it.
Kind of like the guys with small weewees that bluster and bellow with big trucks and big guns and denounce homosexuals and equal rights for women because of their own inadequacies.
Posted by: Mrs. Kerr | July 24, 2008 8:50 PM
I applaud your chutzpah! Would that rationality were as contagious as superstition obviously is.
Posted by: melior | July 24, 2008 8:50 PM
#1388:
That makes me recall a great Chaz Braman comic.
Posted by: Helen. | July 24, 2008 8:50 PM
Who wants to bet that the lunatic who threatened your kid is also very much anti-abortion and likes to rail about 'the sanctity of life' in other venues?
Still, this blend of enthusiastic sanctimony and frothing, lunatic, bilious hatred - the kind that periodically erupts into bombings and pogroms - is very much in the spirit of Catholicism, historically. Keep it up, fellas and ladies - you're just proving our point! And our point is, you're delusional, dangerous and if your precious Jesus ever came back, he would surely vomit on your shoes in disgust. threatening to kil someone over a bloody wafer. You sad bastards. Go feed the poor or help someone. You know, do what Jesus said to do and turn the other cheek. FORGIVE HIM. I don't recall the part of the gospels where he lamed on and on about smiting the first person who looks at your favourite biscuit wrong.
Posted by: sfw | July 24, 2008 8:51 PM
-- The J man said: Atheists do not believe life is sacred.
I'm an atheist. I believe life is sacred.
-- They don't believe in goodness, truth,
I believe in goodness and truth... Lucky he didn't say 'beauty' there.
-- or beauty.
Oh crap! I sure don't believe in that... Oh, that's right. I do! Phew!
-- Those things are meaningless to them. For them there is no meaning. Human beings have no intrinsic worth, so in a way you encourage death threats by your own philosophy.
Umm... You do realise that when you say stuff like this - Stuff that is as untrue as 'the sky is green' when we're standing outside on a clear day - you just kind of emphasise our point that the self-delusion needed and caused by religion is, in itself, dangerous.
There are many atheists here. Truth-lovers, beauty-seekers and crusaders for life.
Telling us we have three legs would get the same reaction.
It's. Just. NOT. True.
Posted by: Anne Nonymous | July 24, 2008 8:51 PM
Yeah, also, the kerning in the type on that page from The God Delusion totally doesn't match my copy. I bet PZ just typed it up on his computer and didn't desecrate a real copy of The God Delusion at all!
For fuck's sake, who cares if it's genuine or not? That's miles away from the point of this exercise.
Posted by: KM | July 24, 2008 8:52 PM
IngoB wrote:
"Interesting that a nail was used for this. Whether this was a conscious play on the crucifixion or not, it goes to show that Christian imagery lingers in the mind long after Christian faith has been denied."
Please re-read PZ's original post. He explains why he used a nail.
Posted by: Jesus, called Christ | July 24, 2008 8:52 PM
Uh, God heard you the first time. And it doesn't matter, because he doesn't care either way.
And will you people get it through your thick, still-living skulls that
I, JESUS!
Or even matzo.DO!
NOT!
TURN!
INTO!
WINE!
OR!
CRACKERS!
Really, it's like talking to a wall...
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 8:53 PM
God is love. Therefore, Hell.
Posted by: Stephen Hand | July 24, 2008 8:53 PM
Just released: The Jewish Revolutionary Spirit: And Its Impact on World History (Hardcover) by Culture Wars Editor, E. Michael Jones
A huge work, over a thousand pages of documentation
@ Amazon too:
...answers all Meyers propaganda
http://www.amazon.com/Jewish-Revolutionary-Spirit-Impact-History/dp/0929891074
Posted by: Phentari | July 24, 2008 8:54 PM
Fr. J @757:
"Would I post here if I cared what atheists thought of me?"
Yes. In fact, if you didn't care what atheists thought of you, you wouldn't post here. You certainly wouldn't spend as much time here as you seem to. Most priests I know have better things to do with their time.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 8:55 PM
Well, PZ
There are certainly many fine pickings for this month's special Cracker Commemorative Order of the Molly. Are you taking nominations?
ChristOCrackers - They're not just for breakfast anymore!
...
..
.
Posted by: Adrienne | July 24, 2008 8:55 PM
E. Michael Jones of "Culture Wars" fame is not only an anti-Semite but an AIDS denialist too.
Posted by: Phentari | July 24, 2008 8:57 PM
"Those things are meaningless to them. For them there is no meaning. Human beings have no intrinsic worth, so in a way you encourage death threats by your own philosophy."
Is it just me, or does that sound AWFULLY like the folks who say "If she didn't want to be raped, she shouldn't have been dressed that way?"
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 8:57 PM
E. Michael Jones of "Culture Wars" fame is not only an anti-Semite but an AIDS denialist too.
Who needs scientific theories of viruses when you've got God to kill those you hate?
Posted by: Neural T | July 24, 2008 8:57 PM
The J man said: Atheists do not believe life is sacred.
"Sacred" is a religious term. I don't believe life is sacred. I believe that murder is extremely, extremely, extremely wrong, but not because life is "sacred."
If you believe that life is sacred, then you should probably be a pacifist: no murder, no capital punishment, no killing in defense, no killing in war.
Posted by: DingoDave | July 24, 2008 8:58 PM
#1056I:
-"I think this is very sad. I cannot understand why someone who cares so little about a religion would have to take such drastic measures."
Professor Myers DOES care about religion you dolt.
He cares about the fact that it has the ability to turn otherwise rational individuals into something akin to baying hounds.
-"You must be very hurt and angry but lucky for us Our Lord is all good and mercy."
Would that be the same god who supposedly threatens to commit Professor Myers, and all the rest of us non-believers to an eternty of unspeakable suffering, for the 'crime' of skewering a cracker???
Lord have mercy on the cracker! My only hope for it, is that it didn't suffer too much during it's impalement.
Sheesh. The sheer stupidity of you religious apologists beggars my imagination.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 8:59 PM
shorter Fr J: life is sacred, but crackers are more sacred than life.
And somehow, we, who hold humans to be of greater value than crackers, are anti-life.
go figure.
Posted by: amphiox | July 24, 2008 9:00 PM
Oh, Fr.J, thou sanctimonius, simpering, simpleton. Tremble, ye fool, wail and gnash thy teeth. Pray thee to thine little god, but he cannot help thee. Thy internet soul is forfeit, for thou has violated GODWIN'S LAW.
Verily ye shall know the flames of internet hell. Beg for absolution, sinner, but ye shall receiveth none. For ye hath done the unseemingling in the eyes of the Host.
Ye hath violated GODWIN'S LAW.
There can be no forgiveness. Weep in darkness, pinged forevermore.
And consider these three words:
"Gott Mitt Uns"
Posted by: God | July 24, 2008 9:00 PM
I know. It's so funny. You get humans when they're young; you tell them, with a deeply solemn voice, and a straight face, the silliest thing imaginable; you keep telling them the silly thing day in and day out, year after year — and when they get a little older, they will scream with outrage if someone acts as though the silly thing isn't true. Sometimes someone comes along with a slightly different silly thing, and there's a schism. So now there are two groups with different sets of silly things, so they start screaming at each other. And sometimes they go beyond just screaming, and they start hitting each other over their silly things.
Now that's comedy!
Posted by: Dave C | July 24, 2008 9:01 PM
Oh, great! Now this already cumbersome thread is going to become knee-deep in vampire party-crashers!
Posted by: melior | July 24, 2008 9:02 PM
Many generations ago, there were so many different believers in various messiahs that one has to wonder how come Christianity and Islam and Hinduism were selected for successful propagation over their many competitors.
One only has to read about the hundreds of years of them brutally massacring each other and their rational bystanders to realize the answer is obvious:
They were the most bloodthirsty.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 24, 2008 9:02 PM
IngoB@1396,
You, like Roger Scruton, are a pompous ass. If he is your idea of a rational person, I am saddened, but not surprised.
Posted by: firemancarl | July 24, 2008 9:03 PM
So, Jesus was a Jew, lived as a Jew, and died as a Jew. And the catholics have gone batshit crazy over a cracker that represents a Jew. Oh the irony!
Posted by: Mrs. Kerr | July 24, 2008 9:03 PM
"You deserve to die for this. You are lucky that Catholicism, unlike Islam, is not a violent religion. Nonetheless, watch your back."
"" Posted by: Inquisitor | July 24, 2008 7:50 PM ""
See? NOBODY expects the Spanish Inquisition!!!
Catholicism isn't a violent religion? Since when? Sheesh, read a history book!
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 9:03 PM
"You must be very hurt and angry but lucky for us Our Lord is all good and mercy."
All good and mercy: Hell. Eternal torture for offending the good and merciful, a being who orders murder and genocide.
Wow, if you thing a being like that is good and mercy, stay the fuck away from me.
Posted by: Michael Glenn | July 24, 2008 9:04 PM
IngoB (#1396) wrote: "God is infinitely just but merciful, and so no more than [Myers'] sincere repentance at any time during his future life will be needed to ultimately erase this event out of history for him and God."
Surely that applies to PZ's desecration of the Qur'an!
No?
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 9:05 PM
Jesus pour your precious blood upon all those involved Amen!
What is it with you death fetishists?
Posted by: SC | July 24, 2008 9:05 PM
melior @ #1304,
I said that!
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2008/07/priorities_1.php#comment-1003849
Thanks! Since my search turns up no other hits, I'm happy to claim all of the credit (I'm big on credit), but in lieu of that I'd be perfectly satisfied with one of the spare copies of TGD.
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 24, 2008 9:05 PM
"It's rather the kind of madness that appears in ripping the drawing of a three-year-old from his parent's fridge, and tearing it to shreds because it's "just not art" according to some sophisticated aesthetic standard. The madness lies in the destruction of what another person finds personally and emotionally meaningful, and indeed beautiful, not in the "objective" judgment that the drawing is so ugly it needs destroying."
So basically, the Catholics in this case are akin to emotional fragile children. What an astonishing admission!
Posted by: Pikemann Urge | July 24, 2008 9:06 PM
All books are sacred to me. I even get pissed off when I see people writing in them! Still, whatever pops your lock.
Posted by: TonyT | July 24, 2008 9:06 PM
Inquisitor probably hasn't seen "Passion of the Christ" Either.
Probably the most violent film of all time, and they loved it!
Posted by: JD | July 24, 2008 9:06 PM
He did. Simply click on the photo to see the image at full resolution (3008x2000px; 390KB).
Posted by: Ryan B | July 24, 2008 9:06 PM
(Ingo B) #1396: The difference is thatntearing up a 3-year-old's drawing does no social good and arguably social harm: if everyone had to produce great art on their first try or else be mocked and thus discouraged from being imaginative, we'd probably have worse art and a worse life. Not to mention that a 3-year-old can't be expected to be mature in such situations. I guess what you're saying is that the faithful have the same maturity level as a 3-year-old? Because as I see it, religious belief (not per se, but the way that it is frequently practiced by Christians in America as well as Muslims in the Middle East) does harm to society and the practicioners are not 3-year-old children, even if they are at that level maturity-wise.
Posted by: Vlad Tepes | July 24, 2008 9:07 PM
Vhat's you're problem vith that, you bigot?
Everyone knows that the blood is the life. It even says so in the Bible.
Is it my fault if I vant just a leetle more life?
And besides, it is all good. I am a Christian, after all. And I do not drink... vine.
Posted by: black wolf | July 24, 2008 9:07 PM
Judging an entire organization based on its bad apples is incredibly poor. The Catholics have the unique ability to produce saints, which many seem to have forgotten. Were Mother Theresa, Padre Pio, and Cardinal Neumann all just confused cracker worshippers?
Say whatever you like, the outstnding contributions of these individuals to humanity stand for themselves.
We're judging the Church not on its reliable produce of pedophiles, that can happen when nobody's looking. When that Church has had an official system of not looking and covering up the actions of bad apples by mixing them into a basket elsewhere to contaminate other apples, and apologizes and recompensates only after a customer complains without making any effort to consequentially weed out the bad apples and making sure their practices don't encourage more bad apples to enter clean baskets, that's where we become a tad bit judgmental.
How is producing saints evidence of being a helpful organization? Anyone can declare any number of people saints based on his own standards. Rational people become suspicious when a group declares that miracles are evidence of sainthood, and declares miracles on its own terms, without allowing external independant testing. Miracles are a primitive superstition based on having no explanation for anecdotal events and untested claims. Sainthood is a superstition based on a superstition.
Yes they were confused cracker worshippers. You know the old saying about the broken clocks. You might research how much money Teresa racked in, and how little of that was actually spent on alleviating poverty and helping the sick. She preferred to use the money to finance a worldwide organization equipped luxuriously to improve indoctrination efforts. She also had a perverse fascination with suffering, going so far that she believed suffering was better than being healed quickly or dying painless and in a clean environment.
Posted by: Cafeeine | July 24, 2008 9:08 PM
You know I just had a weird notion, although I doubt I'm the first one to have it.
Would a priest lament the loss of his favorite digital Bible after a hard drive crash as much as his dead tree version being destroyed?
Would the various theists be offended if I send electronic copies of their respective holy books to the Rubbish Bin? To address a previous concern, the books can be in any and all languages (Aramaic, Greek, Arabic, English, Latin, Pig Latin, etc.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:08 PM
the photo is a fake. your "fearless" leader is a coward.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 9:09 PM
Re: the Qur'an and The God Delusion....RECYCLE THE FUCKING PAPER PRODUCTS!!!!!!
C'mon now.
Posted by: GOD | July 24, 2008 9:09 PM
Will someone pass the bong?
Posted by: Chris | July 24, 2008 9:11 PM
Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
May the God of Love have mercy on you.
Posted by: Stephen hand | July 24, 2008 9:12 PM
The poor fellow wrote, and I quote:
"I know. It's so funny. You get humans when they're young; you tell them, with a deeply solemn voice, and a straight face, the silliest thing imaginable; you keep telling them the silly thing day in and day out, year after year -- and when they get a little older, they will scream with outrage if someone acts as though the silly thing isn't true."
yeah, like everything that is -- came from nothing at all
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 9:12 PM
And you are a screeching lunatic and sockpuppet.
Posted by: Daniel-138 | July 24, 2008 9:12 PM
{{blockquote}}what a weak attempt. thanks for giving me further reason to convert to Catholicism.
and by the way, nice job with the photoshop. you get your kid to do that? pathetic. but what would you expect from a professor that's teaching at what is essentially a community college.{{/blockquote}}
You may need new glasses, some new reasoning skills, and a new brain for good measure.
Posted by: Elijah | July 24, 2008 9:12 PM
Julie,
Catholics do not believe that God is harmed by the desecration.
Jennie,
Okay, I should be more precise. There may be some Catholics that do claim to able to tell the difference between consecrated and unconsecrated hosts (and that claim can be tested in the manner that you describe), but such a claim isn't one that most Catholics would make, nor is such an ability required for Myers's insults to hit home. The host need not be consecrated for his act to be deeply offensive, since he has claimed that it is.
Posted by: Daniel-138 | July 24, 2008 9:13 PM
[blockquote]what a weak attempt. thanks for giving me further reason to convert to Catholicism.
and by the way, nice job with the photoshop. you get your kid to do that? pathetic. but what would you expect from a professor that's teaching at what is essentially a community college.[/blockquote]
You may need new glasses, some new reasoning skills, and a new brain for good measure.
Posted by: Owlmirror | July 24, 2008 9:13 PM
Then you have no reason to be here, or to be angry. So run along, now. Shoo!
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 9:14 PM
ChristOCrackers - It's all a perfect body needs for perfection.
...
..
.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 9:14 PM
So, Chris, the god of mercy is the one that required the murder of an innocent human being for your evil, right?
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 9:14 PM
You haven't bothered to read the posts have you? I can't recall all the post numbers in which we've addressed your type of remark, but here's one of mine...go read post #577
Before you post again, at least read some of the comments. Any bullshit you're going to spout has already been spouted and subsequently shredded.
Posted by: Doug S. | July 24, 2008 9:15 PM
If you REALLY want to see people upset, try desecrating a symbol of [insert popular sports team here]. You think Muslims and Catholics have short tempers? Try football hooligans.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 9:15 PM
Sadly, they do not carry brains small enough to fit in his thick skull.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:16 PM
the photo is a fake.
Then you have no reason to be here, or to be angry. So run along, now. Shoo!
who's angry? not me. the "professor" is nothing but talk. but the sheep seem to follow his every word.
Posted by: scorebert | July 24, 2008 9:16 PM
Ever notice how post September 11, the first thing an offended Christian says is, "Why don't you pick on my crazy brother, Islam? He'll kick your ass."
You know what I mean?
Posted by: Bob Smith | July 24, 2008 9:16 PM
#1404
You seem to have left out a key word -- 'objective' -- that proceeded those three -- either on purpose or I guess you missed the entire point of the J man's post? Again, the keyword is 'objective' as applied to goodness, truth and beauty. With that word restored, I think J-man is correct - do not atheists deny objectivity in these matters, but only claim subjectivity for them?
Posted by: melior | July 24, 2008 9:17 PM
Please allow me to formally submit my vote for SC for this month's Order of The Molly for this one.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:18 PM
come on PZ, is this the best you can come up with? a photoshop picture. LMAO!
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 9:18 PM
nothing but talk? about what?
he threw away some crackers he received in the mail.
Is there some bigger thing he's supposed to do, something more than throw unwanted and worthless objects in the trash?
Posted by: decrepitoldfool | July 24, 2008 9:18 PM
OK, seriously John, We assume you're not outraged because you arent't acting like you are outraged. Here's what the Catholic church can do to "continue to work to blah-blah":
1. Immediately turn over all records and start cooperating with the police 100%
2. Stop hiding behind the confessional as a means of not cooperating.
3. Stop making excuses.
4. Parishioners stop donating money to the church until it takes steps 1, 2, and 3. Would you give money to a drug addict? Let them sell some "priceless" paintings and sculptures.
I call nonsense on "working toward" and such. If a priest, a nun, a bishop or a parishioner knows a priest who exploited a vulnerable person sexually, he picks up the telephone and calls the cops. Now. And testifies in court to put the bugger in PRISON.
This is not a new problem. The church has had centuries to solve it.
Posted by: nfk | July 24, 2008 9:19 PM
"I think society in general was a little rough in the middle ages--not just the Catholic Church. I think people have gotten much more civilized over the centuries. Most of us have, anyway. You're obviously still a brutish, uncivilized, dumb ass." -Sandi
Ha ha. That's great. You go from saying how people, in general, have grown up and become more civilized (presumably you include yourself in that category) and then you proceed to call him a dumb ass?
Wouldn't the civilized thing be to respectfully disagree while explaining what you believe and why without resorting to name calling?
Perhaps you need to take your own words a little more to heart before posting.
Posted by: Samantha | July 24, 2008 9:19 PM
I find you spiteful and arrogant.
Posted by: CanadianChick | July 24, 2008 9:20 PM
beautifully written, PZ - just beautiful.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 9:20 PM
decrepitoldfool,
until Cardinal Law is in prison and not his comfy parish in Rome, we'll know the RCC isn't serious about the sex abuse cover-up.
Ain't gonna happen, either.
Posted by: spurge | July 24, 2008 9:21 PM
Samantha posted
"I find you spiteful and arrogant."
Who?
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 9:21 PM
Oh Sandi's back again, yay! Man, you're a frigging idiot, Sandi.
But you know, I really do feel sorry for you. You just have no idea how much you're missing out on in life.
Posted by: «bønez_brigade» | July 24, 2008 9:22 PM
Huzzah, I love the rusty nail. It's interesting, though, that Christ's body doesn't bleed when pierced...
Looking forward to a deluge of desecrations, I am.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 24, 2008 9:23 PM
I'm in U're church peeing in U're holy water.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:23 PM
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Posted by: Bobby Bambino | July 24, 2008 9:24 PM
John Lewandowski! Nice to see you again. Too bad it has to be under these sad circumstances. Come back to Jill's blog. We need you bro. God love you old friend.
Posted by: Ian Tuffs | July 24, 2008 9:25 PM
I belong to AA (australian atheist)! All praise to you PZ and your fellow sceptics.
Posted by: Stephen Hand | July 24, 2008 9:25 PM
It's amazing how Meyers knows these desecrations reported in history did not (could not!) take place ---and then he desecrates himself...to prove his point!?!?
Is that the kind of logic they teach at UM?
Posted by: gsenski | July 24, 2008 9:26 PM
Well done PZ. As for those pages from The God Delusion, I defer to post #954.
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 9:26 PM
a pointless, evil act...
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 24, 2008 9:26 PM
I'm puzzled. Where are all the fatwa-enviers from earlier threads, who dared PZ to desecrate a Qu'ran, and sneered that he would not dare? Why have they not been back to recant their proven falsehoods?
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 9:26 PM
The good professor says: "Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity's knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality."
Which really demonstrates his confusion. Remember, on the good professor's understanding, we don't have a purpose, so why is the good professor assigning us the job of "advancing humanity's knowledge"? Because he's a fool who can't think clearly. A sad little confused man who is too scared to believe what he says he believes. Nothing is sacred, dear professor, even your little bromides. Not even your life. Nothing about you and your precious theories. Nothing is sacred.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:27 PM
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Posted by: bob smith | July 24, 2008 9:27 PM
#1404
I as referring to j-man's post #700 - his first mention of goodness, truth and beauty, where he tied it into 'objective'.
Subjective truth is hte same as no truth; ironically it was Pilate who asked Jesus (Who is Truth), 'What is truth?' and he authorized the nails being placed into Jesus - His crucifixion. You are admitting to standing alongside Pilate, a name that has become despised and cursed throughout history.
You say you believe life is sacred - do you believe in abortion, one wonders?
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 9:27 PM
CR for the win! If a priest blessed your dough-filled head CR, would it become the body and blood of Christ?
Posted by: Kevin | July 24, 2008 9:27 PM
@IngoB #1396
Predictably, you missed the whole point. For one thing, your analogy is false. It is not as if he destroyed a three year old's drawing... it's as if he destroyed a photocopy of *some* drawing that other people said *represented* the three year olds drawing. The distinction is hardly semantic.
And for another, the whole point of this is not the act itself, but YOUR ridiculous reactions to it. The act itself doesn't mean squat. This entire exercise only serves to demonstrate, time and again, that no matter how hard you try, you are bound by irrational laws set down by crazy ass people hundreds of years ago.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 9:27 PM
Doug S @ #1450
I have a game ball autographed by the entire roster of Team Arsenal.
Convert, or the stitches go the the bitches, and the leather flies like a feather!
Posted by: Roger | July 24, 2008 9:28 PM
Bravo PZ! We live in a world populated by idiots...
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 9:28 PM
John Lewdanowski/whatever other names you're using, did you ever answer my question? If you did, I cannot find it. Please, tell me which post it's in or answer it now.
If you forgot the question, or just don't want to answer it, here it is again.
What do you think is the proper punishment for a pedophile?
Posted by: KM | July 24, 2008 9:29 PM
BobSmith (and others):
Atheists lack a belief in god(s). That's it.
Any position on the objectivity of value (including but not limited to aesthetic and ethical values) is up to the individual atheist. Atheism is a constraint on the kind of explanations atheists can give for things like the objectivity of value -- i.e., they cannot involve god(s) -- nothing more.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:30 PM
[quote]A sad little confused man who is too scared to believe what he says he believes.[/quote]
exactly. the "professor" is a coward. I've said it all along.
Posted by: Dr. J | July 24, 2008 9:31 PM
Can this shit go away and we can get back to some real interesting content on this site and not a bunch of crap about a cracker?
YAWN!
Posted by: Neural T | July 24, 2008 9:31 PM
Great. Here's comes the vandalism. And we're the juvenile ones.
Posted by: deang | July 24, 2008 9:32 PM
I do feel that you should have trashed more religious texts than just the Koran in that wastebasket, if only because hundreds of thousands of Muslims have been slaughtered in recent years by the US military, with no end in sight. It wouldn't have been as bad if you had also included pages from the Bible and the Torah. Somehow, including a page from The God Delusion doesn't offset insulting a group of people who are the current targets of mass slaughter. Plus, it seems kinda like you're giving in a bit to the rabidly anti-Muslim Christians who've been harassing you. I say all of this as an atheist who despises all Abrahamic religions but is still moved by the reality of present persecutions.
Posted by: brokenSoldier, OM | July 24, 2008 9:33 PM
Posted by: decrepitoldfool | July 24, 2008 9:18 PMExactly. The point is that it would require very little actual "work" for the Catholic Church to remedy such a situation, because they have a level of control over their organization that many other organizations do not enjoy. They have a leader that is purported to be infallible on moral issues, and as such can make unilateral decisions determining how the organization that answers to him would handle such a transgression.
The only "work" that the Pope would have to do to handle this situation would be to enact a papal bull stating that any priest found to be molesting children will be stripped of their status, removed from their position, and excommunicated from the Church. If such a decree were issued, then you would have a situation in which the Church has "worked" sufficiently to solve the problem.
Posted by: Ignignockt | July 24, 2008 9:33 PM
Dave @ 1472
a pointless, evil act...
I agree completely. Threatening the lives of real human beings over superstition is pretty depraved.
Posted by: dcb | July 24, 2008 9:33 PM
Bravo PZ! Great post, stirring and eloquent.
I'm sorry your email is being rendered useless by the haters, things will cool down with some time. Been reading your blog for a few years now, keep up the good work!
Posted by: spurge | July 24, 2008 9:34 PM
deang, Do you even know why PZ decided to throw in a Koran?
Posted by: observer | July 24, 2008 9:34 PM
I have no idea whether the photo is faked. I don't really care. I'm just enjoying the theater. But for the purposes of PZ's stunt it's practically irrelevant. Part of the point is there's no way to tell whether the cracker is consecrated.
Assuming for the sake of argument that the photo is a fake, how does that bespeak cowardice? It's the same shit-storm coming down on him, fake or not, isn't it? If faking it risks the same consequences as doing it for real, what is the difference in the level of courage required?
In a sense, fake host desecration is the only kind possible, since fake hosts are the only kind that actually exist. However, since fake desecration reaps the same whirlwind, so to speak, what exactly would be PZ's motivation?
Posted by: Chupacabras | July 24, 2008 9:35 PM
One would think a defe... depre... A god issue would be national news. I mean thunder, plague or something. It is only an opportunity to whine for this clan of clowns.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 9:35 PM
Am I the only one who finds it funny that Ed can't even spam the right way? I'm now convinced that Ed can't be older than 13.
Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist | July 24, 2008 9:35 PM
OMG! Then it's really true?
God Is Bread?
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:36 PM
Gee, trashing Catholics and desecrating what they consider to be holy was such fun! What shall we do next? I know, let's wear white hoods, burn crosses on our front lawns, and yell "I hate Niggers!" to every black person we see. Better yet, let's wear swastika tee-shirts emblazoned with the words, "The holocaust was a fake!" Boy, do I love being an intolerant hate-filled bigot. And it's great to have Professor Myers and you folks as my compadres in arms. The world would be a much better place if people like us ruled it, right? Morons. I wonder what Myers will do when his sorry bigoted ass gets canned? The KKK is always looking for a few good men.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 24, 2008 9:37 PM
Thomas@1474,
Your understanding of Myers' understanding is deficient. He understands, as do most regular commenters here, that we must and do choose our own purposes, individually and collectively; we must decide between us by free and rational debate what is right, because there are no tablets of stone. Your kind of attack, the claim that atheists must live meaningless, purposeless lives, simply has no purchase on us, because we know from our own lives that it is quite untrue. So, Thomas, who are you trying to convince?
Posted by: Cafeeine | July 24, 2008 9:37 PM
You know I just had a weird notion, although I doubt I'm the first one to have it.
Would a priest lament the loss of his favorite digital Bible after a hard drive crash as much as his dead tree version being destroyed?
Would the various theists be offended if I send electronic copies of their respective holy books to the Rubbish Bin? To address a previous concern, the books can be in any and all languages (Aramaic, Greek, Arabic, English, Latin, Pig Latin, etc.)
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 24, 2008 9:38 PM
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:36 PM
blah blah blah blah blah
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 9:39 PM
Sandi, what do you propose PZ does with junk mail? That's all this is, crap that was sent to him.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 9:40 PM
Sandi, you go suck on a lemon too. Just like Ed and his morphs. Unless you are Ed.
Posted by: spurge | July 24, 2008 9:40 PM
It is still just a cracker Sandi.
I love all the evil crap you idiots seem to think is equivalent to throwing away a cracker.
I love the fact that you completely ignore what started this whole thing.
Posted by: KM | July 24, 2008 9:40 PM
Shorter Sandi:
"I'm agressively stupid and don't know what I'm talking about!"
(Sorry, MAJeff for stealing your schtick. You can have it back now.)
Posted by: Felipe Campelo | July 24, 2008 9:41 PM
OMFG! How *could* you throw that banana away with such abandon! Have you no respect for the feelings of the bananists??? ;P
Cheers, PZ! Greatest post ever!
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:41 PM
Gee, killing muslims and desecrating what they consider to be holy was such fun! What shall we do next? I know, let's burn witches on our front lawns, and yell "I hate witches!" to every witch we see. Better yet, let's wear swastika tee-shirts emblazoned with the words, "The holocaust was a fake!" Boy, do I love being an intolerant hate-filled Catholic. And it's great to have the Pope and many folks as my compadres in arms. The world is a much better place because people like us rule it, right? Morons.
Posted by: Sastra | July 24, 2008 9:41 PM
Bob Smith #1454 wrote:
Since goodness and beauty are evaluations -- reactions by a subject or observer -- it makes no sense to talk of them as being totally 'objective.' But that doesn't mean they're necessarily totally arbitrary. There is also the category of "intersubjective" -- shared in common by all subjects.
Could God be "objectively good" or "objectively beautiful" and yet fill every reasonable human person (including yourself) with horror and disgust? If so, then the "objective" label doesn't add any value to those concepts. Instead, the word becomes meaningless. If not, then you -- like us humanists -- are forced to appeal to the rock of intersubjective standards grounded in humanity itself.
Something cannot be "beautiful," and yet every person know it, understand it, and consider it ugly. The standard we measure things against -- even when it comes to God -- has to be internal. It's the same whether God exists or not.
"Truth" is different, I think, in that something could be true, and yet all humans could believe it to be false. The external standard we measure our beliefs against is reality -- and it never cares what we think.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:42 PM
Paul Zachary Myers is awesome.
Sincerely,
David Duke
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:44 PM
Hey Myers: Thanks for ranting about the Catholic Church in the Year 1215. Did you know we're now in the year 2008? Maybe you didn't get the memo. I've heard of long grudges, but this is ridiculous. Maybe you're compensating for your shortcomings in other areas. Tee-hee.
Posted by: Debra | July 24, 2008 9:44 PM
I am saddened and sickened by your blatant disrespect for others beliefs as well as your mistreatment of Christ in the most holy Sacrament of the Altar especially on Thursday the day devoted to the Eucharist. You will remain in my prayers for a long time. May God have mercy on your soul. I should not want to be you at the moment of your death.
Pax et Bonum,
Debra
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 9:45 PM
Nick, I'm afraid you're confused. The good professor said, as I quoted, that we have a job to do, but there's no one and nothing to assign us that job. Ergo, we don't have a job. There are tablets of stone, of course, and we are free to believe them, just as we're free to believe anything else, and we're free to decide by rational debate or by force or however that it is we come to believe what we believe. I'm not saying you don't believe your life has meaning or purpose. I'm saying that whatever meaning or purpose you believe it has is entirely a creation of your own, and, to use your phrase, has no purchase on the rest of us. The dear professor may think his life worthwhile, even sacred, but that isn't binding on anyone else.
Posted by: GOD | July 24, 2008 9:46 PM
Did Debra just say boner in latin?
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 9:46 PM
Debra, try reading. He did this on WEDNESDAY. It wasn't revealed until Thursday (after the trash had been taken away)
Posted by: AgnoAtheist | July 24, 2008 9:47 PM
Bob Smith (1454)
Objective (truth, beauty, love) vs. the subjective of such is a false dichotomy. This argument is constructed by theists to denigrate those who do not believe in His Royal Proclaimations.
You might want to try catching up with the 21st century. Goodness, love, beauty are all evolutionary constructs. They are not denigrated by being such nor are they some ideal of perfection.
Posted by: Ignignockt | July 24, 2008 9:47 PM
Sandi and Ed really think that treating a wafer as mundane = membership in a murderous organization? I thought we've always been assured religion was supposed to be morally enlightening.
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:47 PM
TO #1504: don't put my name on your lousy posts. If you don't have an original thought, keep silent. "It is far better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 24, 2008 9:48 PM
Gee Sandi (#1495) - only a True Christian could unabashedly use the N-Word. Good job on that.
JBS
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:48 PM
he said it "question everything".....that photo is an obvious fake.
Posted by: ChrisKG | July 24, 2008 9:50 PM
Ed,
Are you 4 years old? Shouldn't mommy put you to bed now?
Posted by: The Western Confucian | July 24, 2008 9:50 PM
I teach English at one of Asia's premier science and technology universities, working with its graduate school of life science. There are many Christians in the department, both among the faculty and students.
And even among the non-Christians and atheists, such a juvenile act would never be considered. In Confucian societies, the title "professor" presupposes a certain level of maturity.
Also, the professors and students here in South Korea tend to stay in their labs until midnight or after everyday of the week, studying protein interactions and such things that might someday lead to cures for cancers and other diseaseas.
You've got too much time on your hands, sir, and are covering up the fact that you're not a very good scientist.
Posted by: JoJo | July 24, 2008 9:50 PM
Sandi #1514
Now the irony meter has to go back to the shop for recalibration.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:51 PM
perhaps Paul Zachary Myers is reading his "atheist creed"....oh wait, nothing is sacred.......or is it......
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 9:51 PM
deang , I understand your point. I assume he just used what was laying around the house at the time though. This whole jebus cracker BS was not on his list of priorities. The catholics sent him copies of the Koran, so he happened to have that, and of course, he happened to have The God Delusion.
I'm sure there's someone out there who might be willing to find a large collection of religious items and desecrate them, but most of us don't care enough to bother.
I have thrown Korans and Bibles in the trash. Not because I felt any anger or wanted to desecrate them...but because I was moving and wanted to lower our weight. (we're military, we have weight limits). To me they are nothing but books and not wanting to facilitate the spread of those religions, I threw them in the garbage. To me, they are garbage and were put where they belong.
Something happened once that was very odd . My mother took one of the Korans my ex-fiance gave me (He is Muslim). I wondered where that one had disappeared to. Well, Last year she told me she had it and had been reading it for the last few years. I asked her why. (She's a Southern Baptist nutjob fundie). She answered that she wanted to see just how evil and vile Muslims really were. She has become quite hate-filled towards Muslims. (Her church also encourages this). I asked her if she replaced the god of the bible with Allah or another name would she perhaps look at the bible the same way she looks at the Koran, as a book full of vile, evil things. (I'm not even sure if she realizes Allah and god are the same make believe entity)
She got mad at me and refused to discuss it further.
Posted by: spurge | July 24, 2008 9:52 PM
The Western Confucian
A question for you.
Is a cracker more important than a person?
Posted by: SC | July 24, 2008 9:52 PM
You're very kind, melior. :)
Probably this Meyer fellow everyone keeps talking about. He gets up to all kinds of things.
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 24, 2008 9:53 PM
#1497 by Cafeeine
OMG - you don't know how many times my digital copy of the bible (I think it has 10 different translations) has been desecra... deleted from my hard drive! I'm a true sinner and there is no hope for me now! Don't anyone bother even praying for my soul as I obviously have none.
JBS
Posted by: Ryan B | July 24, 2008 9:53 PM
Am I the only one that finds it hilarious that Ed took 4 minutes to go from 3 lines of X's to several more...Ed: learn how to use cut and paste. It's really a waste of effort to type that many X's. Not that I really want you to become more efficient at spamming, but it is pretty funny. Btw...you Christians are the ones who believe that the only way to get meaning in life is for someone else to tell you that is is meaningful and what that meaning is. You are the ones open to life not having meaning if there is no god telling you what it means. I feel sorry for you guys...
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:54 PM
Of course I DID achieve orgasm through the creative use of a crucifix.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 24, 2008 9:54 PM
Thomas@1509,
You really are remarkably stupid, or else dishonest. I think the latter more likely because of your patently insincere labelling of Myers as "the good professor". Myers final paragraph outlines what he would like people to adopt as their goals and purposes. He is trying to persuade people to adopt particular values. It's part of the free debate I mentioned in my last post.
The dear professor may think his life worthwhile, even sacred, but that isn't binding on anyone else.
Do you know, Thomas, that sounds remarkably like a threat. But cleverly done - not too explicit.
Posted by: Sastra | July 24, 2008 9:55 PM
observer #1491 wrote:
This has been puzzling me too. Why this insistance by some of the believers here that the episode must have been "faked" out of fear?
I don't know, but my guess is that they're trying to imply that PZ (like all people, including all atheists) really knows -- or suspects -- there's a God, and therefore he can't quite bring himself to bring down God's wrath by desecrating an actual consecrated wafer. He has to fake it. The fantasy is that this will be found out, and it will become another atheist-in-a-foxhole type anecdote which will be gleefully passed around, confirming their faith and winning over converts.
I fear some of them are caught up a bit too far in their own propaganda.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:55 PM
Paul Zachary Myers is further proof that evolution is a farce.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 9:55 PM
PZ wrote: And if I wanted to be so evil that I would commit a devastating crime against the whole of the human race, twisting the minds of children into ignorance and hatred, I would be promoting the indoctrination of religion in children's upbringing, and fomenting hatred against anyone who dared speak out in defiance.
This child abuse is why, in my opinion, all religious people are extremely immoral, no matter how moderate they think they are.
I can't imagine any crime worse than lying to children, which is what all religious indoctrination is. There's no excuse for it. Parents and priests do it anyway, because they know that without brainwashing of young gullible children, their idiotic religion would be extinct in less than a century. This child abuse is what all religions have in common. It's the reason why children virtually always have the exact same religion as their ancestors, going back several centuries. The stupidity and insanity is passed on to each new generation. Some way must be found to stop it, even though the problem seems hopeless.
I suggest relentless ridicule of people who make a living from the money making scam called religion. I'm talking about the priests and the preachers. Every priest and every preacher makes a living from lying to children (when they aren't busy raping them). They're all assholes, and they all deserve nothing but contempt.
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:55 PM
Gee Sandi (#1495) - only a True Christian could unabashedly use the N-Word. Good job on that.
Hey JBS #1495: To quote the great Professor Myers, "Nothing is sacred." Can't have your cake and eat it too, pal.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 9:56 PM
That's right, wrap yourself back up in that security blanket. Here's a pacifier for you, Dear.
*sticks something warm and squishy in Ed's mouth*
Posted by: Debi | July 24, 2008 9:56 PM
Thank you. Your blatant disrespect and ignorance have encouraged me to increase the humble practice of my faith. Thanks to you I am now a daily communicant and intend fully to pray the Rosary and remember you at Mass.
Debi
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:57 PM
Me @ #1514: "It is far better to remain silent and be thought a fool, than to open your mouth and remove all doubt."
Aren't I ironic?
Posted by: Adrienne | July 24, 2008 9:57 PM
Why do people keep on claiming the picture was photoshopped? I mean, there's nothing in the photo that is physically impossible to arrange in that fashion. Do they think it the picture was altered because the host isn't bleeding or something? Someone else claimed that the host wafer would have broken up when the nail was driven through it, but they do get considerably softer and spongier when stale (I grew up Catholic and pocketed a few wafers in my pre-adolescent days just out of curiosity).
Posted by: spurge | July 24, 2008 9:57 PM
I for one have had enough of the sock puppet troll fest.
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 9:57 PM
Yeah, importing trees with a dangerous virus, what was he thinking?
Posted by: DingoDave | July 24, 2008 9:58 PM
Ref. #1421 - "Many generations ago, there were so many different believers in various messiahs that one has to wonder how come Christianity and Islam and Hinduism were selected for successful propagation over their many competitors."
The answer is simple;
-"Every major religion today is a winner in the Darwinian struggle waged among cultures, and none ever flourished by tolerating its rivals." - [ Edward O. Wilson; 'Consilience: The Unity of Knowledge' ]
Posted by: James | July 24, 2008 9:58 PM
Good job, PZ. It is truly amazing that people in the 21st century actually believe that a stupid cracker is the flesh of an invisible man in the sky, and that you could actually harm this supposed omnipotent being by harming this cracker. There truly is no hope for mankind if we persist in such idiocy. Come on people, IT'S A GODDAMNED CRACKER!!!
Posted by: Cheezits | July 24, 2008 9:58 PM
What shall we do next? I know, let's wear white hoods, burn crosses on our front lawns, and yell "I hate Niggers!" to every black person we see.
And *this* is a perfect example of why I think some of the crap the Catholic church teaches is not just harmless stupidity. It is virulent, soul-killing, mind-rotting stupidity that deserves to be ridiculed. You actually think threatening a wafer is the same as threatening or insulting a human being.
Posted by: IngoB | July 24, 2008 9:58 PM
Re Tyler DiPietro @ #1429 and Ryan B @ #1433:
It was hardly the point of my analogy that some Catholics have the maturity of three-year-olds concerning their religion. But naturally that is true. Just as one can find a good many atheists that act childishly about their convictions, or conservatives that display immature conservatism, etc. None of which in any way or form excuses Prof. Myers'. What he claims to have done is - insofar as it is a highly publicized act - a gratuitous disturbance of the social order and of the emotional peace of a good many people, which has no redeeming features. In particular it will not contribute significantly to "making Catholics see the light of atheism", if one considers that to be a good. You need not believe in God in the least to see that.
Re Michael Glenn @ #1426:
Concerning the relevance of the supposed Qur'an desecration to God, from my perspective that is still an intended insult to the God of Abraham - it's just that the means chosen are to me not as significant per se (a Muslim would of course see that differently). But even if Prof. Myers' tried to piss off some neo-pagans by desecrating some symbol of Zeus, my basic point remains: nothing good will come of this even by atheist reckoning (well, perhaps some entertainment), but plenty of bad, so why on earth do it?
Posted by: Boosterz | July 24, 2008 9:59 PM
I wonder if any of the morons trolling this thread have realized yet that the most likely reason why none of them have been banned yet is because PZ wants their idiocy to be on full display. Stupid people are so predictable.
Posted by: Adrian | July 24, 2008 9:59 PM
May the Lord God have mercy on your soul - God help you!
Posted by: llewelly | July 24, 2008 9:59 PM
To those arguing about whether not the photo is faked: There is in fact no demonstrable difference between real desecration and fake desecration. If PZ turned up tomorrow with a video of him photoshopping up the photo, the Catholic league and its hordes of Jesus-flesh fetishists would still be ranting, raving, praying, making death threats and downloading low quality spam bots. This is true precisely because the consecration ceremony is without material effect, and the belief that it transforms a wafer into the Jesus-flesh requires that one accept the demonstrably fake as real. It is an inescapable consequence of a religion which has made thousands of outlandish claims about the world, and entirely failed to show evidence for any of them.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 9:59 PM
NOTHING IS SACRED....EXCEPT FOR MY "ATHEIST" CREED AND MY WHITE HOOD.
SINCERELY,
PAUL ZACHARY MYERS
Posted by: Adrienne | July 24, 2008 9:59 PM
Oh wow, at least one Catholic blogger is calling for August to be "Pray for PZ's Conversion" month. Some of the faithful are gonig to go to daily Mass, observe fasts and abstinence, and say lots of extra rosaries just so PZ can see the light and become Catholic. I think I'll celebrate my August with debauchery. Maybe I'll help to keep PZ an atheist that way.
Posted by: OctoberMermaid | July 24, 2008 9:59 PM
"Thank you. Your blatant disrespect and ignorance have encouraged me to increase the humble practice of my faith. Thanks to you I am now a daily communicant and intend fully to pray the Rosary and remember you at Mass.
Debi"
So you're now accomplishing even more nothing than the respectable amount of nothing you were previously achieving.
Awesome.
Posted by: Joseph | July 24, 2008 9:59 PM
Here's what I just sent to the University President.
I just wanted to send a quick note in support of Dr. Myers. The demonstration that not everyone shares the same sensibilities, while certainly jarring to some, is a lesson in free speech that is sorely needed in these Politically Correct times.
I strongly urge you to ignore those who are calling for his censure by the University (or worse), and stand squarely behind his freedom of expression and ideas. Just because ideas are based in religion, does not mean they should be immune from the light of examination and, sometimes, ridicule.
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 10:00 PM
Me at #1464: "Oh Sandi's back again, yay! Man, you're a frigging idiot, Sandi.
But you know, I really do feel sorry for you. You just have no idea how much you're missing out on in life."
Aren't I so right?
Posted by: bob smith | July 24, 2008 10:00 PM
#1482
In point of fact you cannot 'believe in' or claim to have objectivity without there being a Creator, a God. You yourself say it is relative whether or not atheists are objective - objectivity's existence is relative to the individual atheist is what you say (which makes it subjective, then, by definition).
Look at the stars in the night sky in a one-meter by one-meter square area. Each one is relative to another. None can claim to be the 'center' of the square meter of sky, but from each star's point of view, that star is the center.
Look at each country's 2-dimensional worldmap -- each country places itself at the center of their worldmap. And since we know the earth is a globe, none are actually the 'center' but each claims to be.
An outside observer is needed to objectively state which star is in the center, or which (or no) country is objectively in the center. An outside, non-partial, 'observer' or arbitrator is needed for there to exist objectivity.
So it is a contradiction for an atheist to say they believe in objectivity of truth, or goodness, or beauty.
That is what the j-man as getting at in his #700 post.
So you can either be an atheist or objective regards to truth, goodness, or beauty; but not both.
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 24, 2008 10:01 PM
#1504 Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:41 PM
You do realize that we atheists, liberal or otherwise, almost universally protest and decry the war on Iraq. However, your holy brother in office has prosecuted this war. Granted he isn't a Catholic - but it seems the irrational hatred by Christians of "others" isn't so constrained as to be solely the province of one denomination.
So, who exactly is hating on Islam, again?
JBS
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 10:02 PM
Nick, yes, he's trying to get people to buy his made-up values, rather than the goods the other guy is selling. But why don't we laugh at both?
I'm certainly not threatening the good professor. Why would I want to hurt him? Others might, but that's between them, from my point of view, and I'll happily stay on the sidelines.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 10:02 PM
ndi | July 24, 2008 9:36 PMI'll ignore the racist slurs since someone's already clocked you for that.
The KKK would not accept PZ. They are incredibly religious. Atheist are not allowed.
You are too particularly bright Sandi.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 10:03 PM
Let's repeat this one more time:
To all of you saying that critiquing religious ideology and assaulting and tormenting other human beings on the basis of their ethnicity are equal, here's a newsflash: you are insane. Ethnicity is not a choice and does not in itself make any truth claims. People are born into their ethnic identity without having a say in the matter. Religion is an individual's choice, and one which can be critiqued by others on the basis of the truth or falsity of that religion's truth claims. There is no reasonable ground for critiquing someone on the basis of their ethnic identity. Therefore, saying that the act of PZ Myers tossing those items into a garbage can is comparable to an ethnic hate crime is absurd. Get a grip. Think a little.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 10:04 PM
Observer, I'd suggest that the accusations of fakery are coming from those who truly want to believe that the true Eucharist, if desecrated, really would leak blood and ichor, scream, or do any of the miraculous things that it was described as doing when the Jews were accused of desecrating them. The cognitive dissonance produced by the idea that PZ simply and nonchalantly pierced it with a nail and tossed it in the trash without thunder and lightning and veils being ripped asunder is too much. If that's bogus, then what other doctrines are similarly so? Thus, the cracker must not be a Eucharist.
A second motivation for these otherwise baseless accusations is evinced when these Desecration Denialists (witness the birth of a conspiracy meme!) call PZ a coward. PZ is only a coward if he were deep down inside afraid of the wrath of Yahweh and substituted the consecrated host with an unconsecrated one in a version of Pascal's Wager. It's convenient to think of atheists and those of other religions as consciously aware of the truth of Jesus and in denial because they prefer hedonism, divorce, worshiping false idols, or whatever--by blaming the 'victims' of unbelief, God and his eternal torment no longer violate the universal aspect of justice. It's a trick to get around the question of the fate of the Noble Savage. If the Savage is actually not 'savage' or naively innocent but a willful apostate instead, then he must not be a Savage.
To us, the question of whether or not the cracker is consecrated is moot; the act of desecration and the response it provoked is salient. Hell, as you put it, we don't even belief consecrated ones exist in any meaningful way. But to them the cracker can't possibly be consecrated. Jesus just can't be tossed into the trash without a peep like the relics of any other of the gods whom they know to be fake.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 10:04 PM
I've just shit myself. I'll be back in a minute...
Ed
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 10:04 PM
I'll ignore the racist slurs since someone's already clocked you for that.
The KKK would not accept PZ. They are incredibly religious. Atheists are not allowed.
You aren't too particularly bright Sandi.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 10:04 PM
THANK YOU, THANK YOU PAUL ZACHARY MYERS FOR RESCUING ME FROM THE CLUTCHES OF STUPID ATHEISTIC IDEOLOGY. I'LL NEVER HAVE TO BUY INTO YOUR CRAP EVER AGAIN OR THAT RIDICULOUS ATHEIST CREED!
Posted by: Ignignockt | July 24, 2008 10:05 PM
IngoB,
I, for one, think occasional "gratuitous disturbance of the social order and of the emotional peace of a good many people" is a good and necessary thing, especially if said people have forgotten that the worth of one of their own is infinitely greater than a carbohydrate wafer. Why this is even controversial is beyond me.
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 10:06 PM
My post at #1549 is in response to Sandi's post at #1534, just to put some perspective on what may otherwise appear as a very self absorbed post. You people post too fast... they were supposed to appear in succession, not with 20 other posts in between, haha!
Posted by: Hitek | July 24, 2008 10:06 PM
Very well done, Mr. Myers.
The simplicity of the deed is most befitting of these useless items. Your closing paragraph is definitely a keeper, and words to live by.
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 24, 2008 10:06 PM
#1508 Posted by: Debra | July 24, 2008 9:44 PM
Well, Debra, I can tell you for a fact, and without reservation, that not only would I not want to be you at your death, I wouldn't want to be you at any time.
JBS
Posted by: Julián Rodriguez Orihuela | July 24, 2008 10:07 PM
Your last words were really something to print and frame in walls.
Posted by: Ray | July 24, 2008 10:07 PM
How pathetic that we live in an age with no rules, few, if any, moral boundaries, and outright hatred and disdain for the sacred and holy. Sadly, this freight train of debauchery is typically lead by our so-called intellectuals, egg-heads like Myers who proclaim themselves God and pretend to be the all-knowing lords of the universe.
I've got news for you Myers (and your mindless followers). One day, every knee will bend and every tongue will proclaim the greatness of our Lord Jesus. Sadly, for you and your followers, you'll at the same time be on your knees begging for forgiveness before His thrown of judgment.
May God have mercy on you all.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 10:07 PM
ATHEISM IS FOR KIDS.
SINCERELY,
PAUL ZACHARY MYERS
Posted by: Sastra | July 24, 2008 10:07 PM
bob smith #1550 wrote:
Only if everyone agrees that this observer is the standard.
You have the same problem.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 10:08 PM
Did you miss me? Ok, back to my ranting....oh oh....I feel a full bowl coming on...oh no.......damn it....I've shit myself again....
Hey, I'll be right back for some more PZ hating....
Posted by: flounder | July 24, 2008 10:09 PM
"Hey Myers: Thanks for ranting about the Catholic Church in the Year 1215. Did you know we're now in the year 2008? Maybe you didn't get the memo. I've heard of long grudges, but this is ridiculous. Maybe you're compensating for your shortcomings in other areas. Tee-hee."
I've heard that some people are still sore at Jews for something that happened 1960 years ago or so. Somebody got crucified. That is a long grudge.
Posted by: observer | July 24, 2008 10:09 PM
Ignignockt@1559
And it's a simple carb at that. Or do they sell whole wheat versions?
Posted by: Joe | July 24, 2008 10:09 PM
I am a Catholic and ask that even though you do not believe as we do that you look at the act itself. I would not take something you hold dear or care very much about and desecrate it. As a decent human being this is tacky and tasteless. No one is perfect and I will not judge anyone it is not my position to do so I will say that I am disappointed in the act and it saddens me to see this done but if you are correct nothing will happen and if you are wrong I cannot judge but he will judge.
God Bless
Joe
Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 10:09 PM
"You actually think threatening a wafer is the same as threatening or insulting a human being." #1540. Cheezits: Are you really that thick or are you just pulling my leg? Last time I checked, I was a human being. Catholics are human beings. By intentionally desecrating what I consider to be holy (i.e., the Eucharist) and by intentionally insulting and baiting Catholics, you insult me as a person. Therefore, my analogy to Blacks and Jews is perfectly on point. I don't consider the Holy Eucharist to be just a "wafer," I consider Christ to be present in it. Sorry, but I'm not going to lie down like a doormat and let you get away with insulting me and all that I consider to be sacred. Moron.
Posted by: Amanda | July 24, 2008 10:10 PM
PZ, I came across your blog during this cracker controversy, and well...I...I think I love you.
Posted by: Phentari | July 24, 2008 10:10 PM
Here's an interesting question:
Has a single supposed Catholic...in any of the multitudinous cracker threads...simply said "I forgive you?"
Sure, lots of them say, "May God have mercy on your soul!"...usually with an unspoken gleeful undertone of, "Boy, are YOU gonna get it when Dad gets home!"...but has any of them actually done the Christian thing and forgiven Prof. Myers?
Posted by: Debra | July 24, 2008 10:10 PM
Dear John nor would I wish to be you either. I am sure my husband is happy you are not I. Peace to you also. I am wonderfully content with my faith and my life. I hope you can say the same.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 10:10 PM
Ed, stop acting your age. It is embarrassing. At least *try* to look like a grownup.
Posted by: monique | July 24, 2008 10:11 PM
Thanks for the Russell's Teapot link, whoever that was. Never read this comic before. It's a hoot!
http://russellsteapot.com/comics/2007/host-desecration.html
Posted by: Anon | July 24, 2008 10:11 PM
Paul & Mary Myers
300 College Ave
Morris, MN 56267
Oldest Son Alaric Myers, graduated from St. Cloud University 9/07
Middle Son Connlann Myers
Daughter Skatje Myers Attending UMM
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 10:12 PM
Actually, let me revise that:
To all of you saying that critiquing religious ideology and assaulting and tormenting other human beings on the basis of their race are equal, here's a newsflash: you are insane. Racial identity is not a choice and does not in itself make any truth claims. People are born into their racial identity without having a say in the matter. Religion is an individual's choice, and one which can be critiqued by others on the basis of the truth or falsity of that religion's truth claims. There is no reasonable ground for critiquing someone on the basis of their racial identity. Therefore, saying that the act of PZ Myers tossing those items into a garbage can is comparable to a racial hate crime is absurd. Get a grip. Think a little.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 10:12 PM
Ok, I'm Back again.
I HATE EVERYONE THAT DOESN"T LOVE GOS LIKE I LOVE GOD WHO LOVES ME LIKE I...I.....oh SHIT....I just shit myself again....God DAMMIT!!!
I'll be right back..
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 10:12 PM
Hey, Bobby Bambino. Good to see you're doing well.
Unfortunately, these "humanists" don't seem to have very much faith in the human race. They continue to tell me that human beings are not capable of only having sex with their spouse; they're telling me that human beings essentially have no choice but to have sex with multiple partners. They're telling me that free will is an illusion. I guess that means that Professor Myers didn't actually do anything courageous or intelligent; since free will doesn't exist, the professor had no choice in doing what he did.
I fail to see how it's a "humanist" point of view to argue that a human is incapable of exerting any sort of control over his or her actions. We Catholics, on the other hand, believe that people are responsible for their actions. Whether those actions are the rape of children, the murder of the unborn, the desecration of the Eucharist, or other serious sins, the blame lies with the person who committed such acts - not with his "genes".
You humanists blaming your genes for your bad actions... you might as well be using the old "the devil made me do it" defense.
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 10:13 PM
Sandi, when you say something as ridiculous as 'I consider christ to be present in it (the wafer)' you lose all rights to call anyone else a moron. You're the definition of a moron, moron.
Posted by: JDH | July 24, 2008 10:13 PM
Regarding liberal education and thought, of which I am a strong advocate, how can you be so naive to exclude spirituality when 85% of the world believes in some form of higher power? Discounting the spiritual nature of humanity is an awfully narrow-minded world view. It was Aristotle who said "It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it" What troubles me is not that is being excluded; what troubles me it the voraciousness of the attack against it.
The Catholic Church has been persecuted for over 2000 years. The Catholic Church will always be persecuted - it's an occupational hazard. Regardless of your intentions and biases, we will pray for all of you.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 10:13 PM
It was the warm squishy thing I placed in Ed's mouth. (I filled it will a laxative.) Or maybe it's just his shit-fer-brains making it's debut.
Posted by: scorebert | July 24, 2008 10:13 PM
Objectivity, relativity.
Complexity is measured on an absolute scale just like temperature (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kolmogorov_complexity). There is math in beauty, particularly symmetry. Symmetry of body is difficult for DNA to accomplish and shows that the specimen is healthy and desirable.
A decade ago, there was an article in Scientific American about game theory: simulated population with various heritable strategies such as tit-for-tat (revenge), altruism, and other strategies. The results were surprising. So we can say that there is no Optimus Prime that dictated all that has arisen from evolution, but to say that what has risen is relative is wrong. Just like the temperature scale, you are saying Celsius, when reality is saying Kelvin. There is objective beauty, complexity, value, and morality. But, as you'd see in chaos theory, there is no one true path handed down on a mountain.
That Ecclesiastes quote that "there is nothing new under the sun" is wrong, since the permutations of possibilities aren't linear. We come from chaos, and always there is something new that was never seen before.
Posted by: JonathanL | July 24, 2008 10:13 PM
What has become obvious is that some of you NEED to believe that an athiest can not become a happy, healthy, productive and upstanding person on their own. That would be a direct assault on your beliefs and so you reject the notion completely. Because if it were true then people wouldn't need to believe in all your nonsense and where would that leave you? Having spent so long with shackles on you telling you how to live and who to be? So, there is no point arguing with you because you can not face the reality.
Posted by: Phentari | July 24, 2008 10:14 PM
"Verily, I say unto you, should an atheist strike you on the left cheek, yellest thou loudly at him and raise your voice unto the heavens. For his firing shalt thou loudly cry out; yea, verily, also shalt thou threaten his life. Callest thou all those who do not agree with you morons; mock and ridicule them."
The Gospel according to Sandi.
Posted by: ednamode | July 24, 2008 10:14 PM
Bravo, PZ! I'm not sure I could have resisted eating the cracker--I'm a carb addict.
Posted by: black wolf | July 24, 2008 10:15 PM
dear Catholics,
thanks for confirming in this thread that of those posting here most of you are
- vile
- immoral
- unconscionable
- closet anti-Semite
- authoritarian
- ignorant
- childish
- bed-wetting
- pedophilia-ignoring
- threatening
- death obsessed
- xenophobic
and much more.
Posted by: Drew | July 24, 2008 10:16 PM
Utter foolishness and infantilism on both sides here. This sort of crap is evidence of the variant effects that account for the erosion of a respectable liberal culture.
Sadly juvenile from an otherwise smart scientist.
This does not absolve Donahue and his ilk who speak for a specific grouping of Catholics not representative of all. It is all stunts of self-aggrandizement and whining that only divert attention from either doing good theology or good science.
Moreover, this nonsense is an affront to the respectability of the academic community. It is embarrassing that anyone of letters would engage in such juvenile whining in order to promote their pet project which has neither to do with reasoned behavior, nor responsible liberal citizenship.
Dr. Myers and Mr. Donague appear to be very suitable bedfellows indeed.
Posted by: Ray | July 24, 2008 10:16 PM
Hey Keith....look up Federal anti-discrimination policy. PZ Myers tossing the Holy Eucharist into a garbage can is absolutely comparable to an ethnic hate crime; even more so since it is blasphemy and disrespect toward OUR LORD AND SAVIOR (yes, He is your Lord and Savior whether or not you choose to believe). His actions were not only juvenile, but vile and representative of the worst hatred and disdain that humans can display toward one another. Clearly, Myers is a sad, small-minded, hate monger on par with the worst hate-mongers of the world; ie. KKK, Nazis, etc. There is no distinction.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 10:16 PM
Wow, Anon.
Post #1577 is the most vulgar display of cowardice I've ever seen.
Posted by: DavidH | July 24, 2008 10:16 PM
Just want to give a big old HELL YEAH PZ! before this thread gets shut down.
Posted by: Rilke's Granddaughter | July 24, 2008 10:16 PM
Bob Smith @1550
All theists, without exception, are non-objective with regard to truth, goodness, and beauty. You really need to think these things through more clearly.
Posted by: Ed | July 24, 2008 10:17 PM
WHO KEEPS POSTING IN MY NAME?? YOU ARE MAKING ME LOOK LIKE AN IDIOT!!! STOP IT OR I'M GOING TO TELL MOM!!!
Posted by: pkiwi | July 24, 2008 10:17 PM
Amazed to keep refreshing on the thread to see how fast it grows. Now Ed has gone CAPS-TROLL insane and apparently its the atheists that are mindless. And #1564 which god or imaginary friend did you want to have mercy?
And as for the 'faked' eucharist - how exactly could you tell? Bleeding crackers makes think..
"
Do you get wafers with it?
'Course you don't get bleedin' wafers with it, its a 'bleedin albatross
"
Posted by: Commander Bill | July 24, 2008 10:18 PM
Another Communique is due soon
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R2YpoiFddXs
Posted by: Debra | July 24, 2008 10:18 PM
Dear Black Wolf I have called no one names nor attempted to insult others. How interesting that you can garnish so much from so little. Either way as I have said I am sure myself and other Catholics fully intend to offer reparation to our Lord for this offense.
Pax et Bonum,
Debra
Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 24, 2008 10:18 PM
#1577
I disagree with PZ. However, I don't really give a crap how much you agree or disagree with him. The information you posted was over the top, abusive, and just general asshattery.
PZ speaks for himself. Drawing his wife and family into this situation is beneath contempt.
Shame on you. You have no place in civilized society.
Posted by: DistendedPendulusFrenulum | July 24, 2008 10:18 PM
Western Confucian, if you are going to teach English, you should learn the difference between everyday and every day.
Posted by: Rilke's Granddaughter | July 24, 2008 10:19 PM
Ray @1590 - like most rabid theists, you are wrong. Had you actually READ the federal anti-discrimination policy, you would know that what Dr. Meyers did was not discrimination.
Where are the intelligent or at least semi-intelligent theists on this thread?
Posted by: tomcruise | July 24, 2008 10:19 PM
what? no blood? no lightning bolt?
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 10:20 PM
Ray, I notice you pick two religious groups. Bravo.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 10:20 PM
John Lewandowski (#1580) wrote: We Catholics, on the other hand, believe that people are responsible for their actions.
Did you think atheists don't believe that people are responsible for their actions?
Posted by: Cheezits | July 24, 2008 10:20 PM
In particular it will not contribute significantly to "making Catholics see the light of atheism", if one considers that to be a good.
Who cares about seeing the light of atheism? Just showing the world what an *unbelievably* (in every sense of the word), not to mention evilly, stupid doctrine the Catholic church espouses is good enough for me. You don't have to be an atheist to recognize stupidity. Or idolatry for that matter.
Now, any Catholics who are capable of seeing the stupidity for what it is have probably already left the church. Or maybe this little flap will be the deciding factor for some.
Posted by: mr_subjunctive | July 24, 2008 10:20 PM
This is in fact the most over the top thing I have ever seen on the internet, or anywhere else. It's an honor to witness it.
P.Z., I do hope that you're taking appropriate measures to keep yourself and your family safe.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 10:21 PM
Keith, the desecration of the Eucharist is not a racial hate crime; it's a religious hate crime. But it is definitely a hate crime, by definition. From the Random House Unabridged Dictionary:
hate crime
-noun
a crime, usually violent, motivated by prejudice or intolerance toward a member of a gender, racial, religious, or social group.
What's the crime? Vandalism. Destruction of private property. Accessory to theft.
Posted by: Sastra | July 24, 2008 10:21 PM
Sandi #1571 wrote:
I don't agree. The 'desecration' of the eucharist wafer was a direct response to the truth of an assertion: the cracker should be treated as if it were a sacred person, because that is what the Catholics believe, and this should be respected. The issue came down to whether or not it is reasonable to either conclude, believe, or act as if a statement of fact is true, when, to an impartial observer, it is clearly false. Should we pander?
So it's not like attacking someone's race or person. It's like attacking pseudoscience.
Posted by: Jesse | July 24, 2008 10:22 PM
Sandi: Maybe your problem is that you think a piece of paper is more valuable than have a decent, respectful society. Where here have people been respectful to PZ's beliefs?
What if I had the belief that it was an atrocity for you not to send me $100? Would that in any way sway you to send me the money, even if I got really offended?
Of course not.
Y'all need to start acting like adults living in the 21st century and give up the juvenile and medieval barbarism.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 24, 2008 10:22 PM
I can't believe no-one's said this yet:
Garbage in, garbage out!
Sandi, you're a moron - on so many levels that I need a spreadsheet to keep track of all of them. You say things like: Did you know we're now in the year 2008?
If that's the case, why are you still obsessed with events that took place around 32CE? You say we're living in the past?
And the KKK? It's a proud Christian organisation. No atheists allowed. They just read a different bible from you, and hate most of the same people you're taught to hate.
Being 'black' or 'a jew' is a race not a religion (Judaism, however, is a religion and one can convert to it; that is a separate issue) and not something that is based on an idea. Religion is based on ideas, and is therefore open to criticism.
You give it away in your words: what I consider to be sacred - what you consider to be sacred. We don't consider it to be sacred. Your right to choose how to perceive something cannot trump our right to choose how to perceive that same thing.
We're ridiculing your beliefs - you don't want that to happen? Simple - stop holding beliefs people can consider ridiculous.
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 24, 2008 10:22 PM
#1531 Posted by: Sandi | July 24, 2008 9:55 PM
Funny, I'm not even sure which Sandi this may be...
And funny too, because that may actually be a good point...
I'll have to think about it. Still, even if nothing is sacred, there are a lot of things that are good ideas and worth pursuing, such as avoiding using certain words as relative to certain portions of the population, not killing other people, and not filling heads full of mush with lies and false faiths.
I never claimed "Nothing is Sacred", BTW, nor am I an automatic follower of all PZ says.
JBS
Posted by: Torquemada | July 24, 2008 10:22 PM
Oh diddums! You poor persecuted Catholics. You like to go around spouting your intolerances under the guise of "conscience of faith." Yet, when someone plays with one of your little symbolic god-crackers, you start crying and sh***ing your colons with rage. Awwwww! Bigots are so cute when they demand unilateral respect.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 10:22 PM
@Drew #1589
Read over all the related posts by PZ on the matter. I think you have completely missed the point.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 24, 2008 10:23 PM
Again, witness the NEED to believe that we all somehow know the Truth yet are in denial.
Ray, I'll pay you five bucks to be a subject in a research study.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 10:24 PM
BobC: "Did you think atheists don't believe that people are responsible for their actions?"
I didn't think you believed that, but you have told me so. Numerous humanists on this very blog have informed that they think it is impossible for human beings to avoid having sex with multiple partners. In other words, they disbelieve in free will.
Posted by: commissarjs | July 24, 2008 10:24 PM
Nice one Sandi! I mean it's not like you believe that people who don't share your religious beliefs deserve to be tortured for all eternity. That would be mean and wrong. It's a good thing your idea of compassion isn't "You have the opportunity to agree with me and not be tortured."
Clearly it's the theists who hold the moral high ground. Thank you devotees of the one true roman and apostolic church hold strong against a rising tide of intolerance.
Posted by: articulett | July 24, 2008 10:24 PM
Rock on PZ.
I love irony. Self-important theist hate-mail makes me giggle.
If it was some other religion arguing for their silly magical practice to be respected, they'd be able to see how crazy they sound-- but when it's their own "woo"-- they are blind to the spinning they do to keep it alive. (Try it, Catholics, --plug in "magical Mormon undergarments" for "the Eucharist and see for yourself. Or plug in L. Ron hubbard instead of Bill Donohue or the Pope) See? Joyous.
Religions make people who need to spin and spin because they believe that "believing" in the right unbelievable story will make them live happily ever after. It's a crazy little mind virus-- I'm sure glad I was cured.
Praise be to PZ for vaccinated others against this virus and attempting to toss a life raft of critical thinking to the infected.
Let's walk into the 21st century together folks... come on... you can do it... it really IS just a cracker. We know you want us to understand your analogies... but try to understand ours. We really truly believe that it's time to put a rest to superstitions past so we can move forward with the kinds of truths that are the same for everybody no matter what they believe. We don't mind if you don't feel comfortable joining us just yet-- but we are offering a hand-- and we WILL continue to laugh at you, (because you are hysterical.)
Thanks for providing entertainment to this former Catholic girl-- --current proud atheist
Posted by: conscientious objector | July 24, 2008 10:25 PM
I don't agree with posting Mr. Myers address and family names either. But in his own words "Nothing is to be held sacred".
Posted by: semi | July 24, 2008 10:25 PM
A little history for all you religious idiots complaining about PZ's "blasphemy."
From Wikipedia:
"The last U.S. conviction for blasphemy--at least that of any significance--was of atheist activist Charles Lee Smith. In 1928 he rented a storefront in Little Rock, Arkansas, and gave out free atheist literature there. The sign in the window read: "Evolution Is True. The Bible's a Lie. God's a Ghost." For this he was charged with violating the city ordinance against blasphemy. Because he was an atheist and therefore couldn't swear the court's religious oath to tell the truth, he wasn't permitted to testify in his own defense. The judge then dismissed the original charge, replacing it with one of distributing obscene, slanderous, or scurrilous literature. Smith was convicted, fined $25, and served most of a twenty-six-day jail sentence. His high-profile fast while behind bars drew national media attention. Upon his release he immediately resumed his atheist activities, was again charged with blasphemy, and this time the charge held. In his trial he was again denied the right to testify and was sentenced to ninety days in jail and a fine of $100. Released on $1,000 bail, Smith appealed the verdict. The case then dragged on for several years until it was finally dismissed.
The US Supreme Court in Joseph Burstyn, Inc v. Wilson, 343 U.S. 495 (1952) held that the New York State blasphemy law was an unconstitutional prior restraint on freedom of speech. The court stated that "It is not the business of government in our nation to suppress real or imagined attacks upon a particular religious doctrine, whether they appear in publications, speeches or motion pictures."
Posted by: Rob Williams | July 24, 2008 10:25 PM
May you be struck down by lighting!
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 10:26 PM
Anon, you might want to do a little research on terroristic threats etc....it's pretty easy to see your intent and it will hold up in a court of law.
You demonstrate nicely why rational people think many religious people are evil. The possibility of putting children at risk seems to give you great pleasure. You're such a good christian. Your brethren must be proud.
Posted by: conscientious objector | July 24, 2008 10:27 PM
I don't agree with posting Mr. Myers address and family names either. But in his own words "Nothing is to be held sacred".
Posted by: Gary | July 24, 2008 10:27 PM
Anon #1577: I hope your implied threat is not typical of those of your faith - whatever that may be. I suppose not using your name gives you some forgiveness from your "saviour"?
Posted by: Debra | July 24, 2008 10:27 PM
Act of Reparation to the Most Blessed Sacrament
With that most profound respect
which divine Faith inspires,
O my God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
true God and true man,
I adore Thee,
and with my whole heart I love Thee,
hidden in the most august Sacrament of the Altar,
in reparation of all the irreverences,
profanations, and sacrileges, that I,
to my shame, may have until now committed,
as also for all those
that have been committed against Thee,
or that may be ever committed for the time to come.
I offer to Thee,
therefore, O my God,
my humble adoration, not indeed,
such as Thou art worthy of,
nor such as I owe Thee,
but such, at least,
as I am capable of offerings;
and I wish that I could love Thee
with the most perfect love
of which rational creatures are capable.
In the meantime,
I desire to adore Thee now and always,
not only for those Catholics
who do not adore or love Thee,
but also so supply the defect,
and for the conversion of all heretics,
schismatics, lebertines,
atheists, blasphemers,
sorcerers, Mahomedans,
Jews, and idolaters.
Ah! yes, my Jesus,
mayest Thou be known,
adored, and loved by all
and may thanks be continually given to Thee
in the most holy and august Sacrament!
Posted by: Drew | July 24, 2008 10:28 PM
@gdlchmst #1612
I indeed have read over as much of this junk as I could swallow.
It's infantile and stupid. The comments I have also read on this thread are likewise. It is a caricature of puerility and nothing more. None of this is "civilized".
I got the point, and my reading of the situation is not favorable to either the ignorant atheists who continue to stroke the ego of their atheist heroes or the religious folk who are feeling bad about themselves due to this stupid self-aggrandizing act by someone who should be finding his business in other matters. All of it is stupid and not indicative of building an effective liberal democracy. I use that term because Myers apparently likens himself as a liberal. None of this crap is indicative of that position in the world.
Posted by: Adrienne | July 24, 2008 10:28 PM
Wow, at least one poster on a message board says that PZ "crucified Jesus anew" and that he even committed Deicide. PZ killed God?! No way!
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 10:28 PM
articulett, have you come up with the ought that comes from is? If not, then why does it bother you that others are comfortable with their superstitions, just as you are with your new ones?
Posted by: Debra | July 24, 2008 10:28 PM
Act of Reparation to the Most Blessed Sacrament
With that most profound respect
which divine Faith inspires,
O my God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
true God and true man,
I adore Thee,
and with my whole heart I love Thee,
hidden in the most august Sacrament of the Altar,
in reparation of all the irreverences,
profanations, and sacrileges, that I,
to my shame, may have until now committed,
as also for all those
that have been committed against Thee,
or that may be ever committed for the time to come.
I offer to Thee,
therefore, O my God,
my humble adoration, not indeed,
such as Thou art worthy of,
nor such as I owe Thee,
but such, at least,
as I am capable of offerings;
and I wish that I could love Thee
with the most perfect love
of which rational creatures are capable.
In the meantime,
I desire to adore Thee now and always,
not only for those Catholics
who do not adore or love Thee,
but also so supply the defect,
and for the conversion of all heretics,
schismatics, lebertines,
atheists, blasphemers,
sorcerers, Mahomedans,
Jews, and idolaters.
Ah! yes, my Jesus,
mayest Thou be known,
adored, and loved by all
and may thanks be continually given to Thee
in the most holy and august Sacrament!
Posted by: observer | July 24, 2008 10:28 PM
Ray@1590,
I'm no lawyer, so if you care to post relevant links to correct me, please do...but I'm very doubtful that anti-discrimination laws apply in this case, and I think you're just making crap up. Again, I could be wrong. If I am, please show me the laws.
I am absolutely sure there are no valid blasphemy laws in the USA. The implication that PZ could be prosecuted for blasphemy is just nuts.
It is not a crime in the USA to insult somebody's religion. Under most circumstances it's just rude. Under some circumstances it can be a moral obligation. If, on the off chance that it is, in fact, illegal to insult somebody's religion, then doing so would definitely be a moral obligation.
Posted by: black wolf | July 24, 2008 10:28 PM
Great!
let's show everyone reading this thread how peaceful, tolerant non-threatening and morally superior Catholics really are, and how much they're being persecuted, by publishing the Myers' address, their places of education and their contact data after their lives have been threatened. Oh dang, a good Catholic's already done so.
Cowards. Jesus would punch you in the face.
You better stock up on band-aids to take with you in your coffin, because you're going to need them. And he's not using gloves either.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 10:28 PM
Cheezits wrote: Now, any Catholics who are capable of seeing the stupidity for what it is have probably already left the church. Or maybe this little flap will be the deciding factor for some.
I think you're right. For every dozen batshit crazy Catholics visiting this blog, there might another Catholic who has what it takes to realize the Catholic beliefs are bullshit, especially after watching the overreaction of the Catholic terrorists to cracker abuse.
Posted by: bob smith | July 24, 2008 10:29 PM
So what if Catholics believe it is Jesus? If they believe that, then let them believe it, and leave them alone. Why attack them? Why bother them? Why provoke them? The poster about the white hoods and burning of crosses is on the mark -- this professor is demonstrating hate and bigotry of a group of people, just like the KKK. The KKK persecuted and killed Catholics as well as African-Americans (and also Jews and others too). This man is acting the same in his display of hatred towards others.
Most of those who claim support of his actions only launch into ad hominem attacks on posters who are against this act of hate - they claim to be of superior intellect but do not use their superior reason to explain why this act is different than the KKK's throwing a brick through a window of a black man's home with a note attached telling him to 'move away or else'? Or Nazis vandalizing Jewish shops to intimidate the Jews?
I see it as an offensive act that shows hate of a group of people just because you despise their beliefs. Just like the KKK or Nazis.
It is offensive. It is hate on display.
I see nothing but hate here.
(Here's an idea: why not go to Istanbul and enter the Muslim mosque, insisting on keeping you shoes on, since you find their requirement that shoes be removed due to it being sacred ground, to be nonsense. What the heck, right?)
Just leave people you don't like alone, will ya?
(and you have no standing in the UCF issue - any court could tell you that -- it is, in a word, none of your business about what happened at UCF.
Your argument can be paraphrased like this: I saw on the news that in another state a white man got removed from an NAACP meeting for yelling at the Blacks and making a spectacle of himself, so in support of that white guy, I am going to do the same thing over here.)
I repeat, just leave people you don't like alone, will ya?
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 10:32 PM
Cheezits said: "Now, any Catholics who are capable of seeing the stupidity for what it is have probably already left the church. Or maybe this little flap will be the deciding factor for some."
A bunch of hateful atheists bragging about their master sticking a nail through the Eucharist will cause Catholics to abandon their faith? How's that?
The Eucharist has been abused by people for nearly 2,000 years. That doesn't mean we like it or intend to put up with it any time soon, but you shouldn't think that this kind of pointless bigotry toward Catholics is something new.
Posted by: Current Military | July 24, 2008 10:33 PM
Does the Oxford World Classic Qu'ran count as the real thing?
I personally would not have f'ed with the Qu'ran after seeing the violence unleashed by mere Muhammed cartoons. And I also would not want my fellow Soldiers f'ing with it if I were stationed in Iraq or Afghanistan unless of course the Bible were right up there beside the Qu'ran on the target range.
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 10:33 PM
Gladly bob, gladly. When they stop sending unsolicited crap, and stop trying to force their views being law, they can be left alone.
Posted by: IngoB | July 24, 2008 10:33 PM
The argument that there's no difference between a real and fake desecration because one cannot detect whether a host has been consecrated is false.
While atheists and Catholic doctrine agree entirely that only the eyes of faith can see the body of Christ in a consecrated host, this does not mean that a consecration is undetectable by "objective" means. One can find out with high degree of confidence whether a priest has valid Catholic orders, and by direct observation, whether he is using the correct form and matter for the sacrament. Given these conditions, "ex opere operato" one knows that the host has been consecrated as far as Catholics are concerned. Hence it can then also be desecrated as far as Catholics are concerned. This knowledge is objective to the Catholic by faith about the sacrament, and objective to the atheist via prior knowledge about Catholic faith.
It's irrelevant whether Catholic faith is delusional or not, the difference consecration makes to Catholics is certainly real and detectable - and determines whether a desecration is "fake".
Posted by: protocol | July 24, 2008 10:33 PM
to all the morons hung up on "nothing should be held sacred": PZ was referring to ideas. No idea should be beyond criticism. Jesus f...ing christ, how old are you guys that these elementary things need to be explained? I mean seriously I normally try extra hard to be polite, even when confronted with utter imbecility. But you guys have collectively crossed a line today.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 10:34 PM
More mental masturbation from a deranged death cult.
Posted by: Ron in Houston | July 24, 2008 10:36 PM
PZ
If you've read my comments you know by now that I disagree with how you've handled this situation.
However, you're a biology professor and generally deal with other scientists, university folks, and students who generally fairly well put together individuals.
I deal with crazy folks day in and day out. #1577 really gives me pause.
My philosophy of life is "don't stir up the crazy folks." You can't deal with them on the same level as rational individuals.
Seriously PZ, #1577 is probably the most scary post that I've seen. People get pissed off and threaten to "beat your brains in." Most of those are just blowhards.
#1577 is what I'd classify as a "real" threat.
Be careful, you've really stirred up a whole bunch of crap.
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 10:36 PM
protocol, what's the difference? I mean, there's this idea that says people shouldn't harm the good professor for his little performance. Is that idea sacred? If it isn't--if in fact someone concludes it isn't true--then that means something, right?
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 10:36 PM
BobC, the unbelievable hatred that appears in your posts suggests to me that atheism is worse than the most twisted perversion of Christianity. Heck, you're even more hateful than Fred Phelps and his Westboro Baptist "Church".
Posted by: JoeyD | July 24, 2008 10:37 PM
Knowledge and wisdom are nothing without love. They cannot be separated; one cannot be in fullness without the other. Knowledge and "wisdom" without love are mere useless statements and quotes. Academia and all its lectures, discourses and books cannot even begin to equal true knowledge and wisdom. The fact is, science cannot explain existance. Physics, mathematics, biology and chemistry can talk ABOUT existance, what it's made of, and how the molecules move, but they effectively and wisely cannot explain the origin nor the reason nor the depths of existance.
Posted by: Cheezits | July 24, 2008 10:37 PM
Sorry, but I'm not going to lie down like a doormat and let you get away with insulting me and all that I consider to be sacred.
But you're still going to insult me, right? :-D
And I'm going to keep reminding you that what you believe is fucking STUPID and constitutes IDOLATRY. And I bet you know it too. It doesn't matter how hard you believe it - a communion wafer is not, in fact, anything but a wafer. Consider it sacred all you want, but don't expect respect. You can't help that your church fed you this nonsense when you were too young to defend yourself, but now you have no excuse. You choose to be offended by something insignificant.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 24, 2008 10:38 PM
John Lewandonski, #1606, wrote:
Er, wrong. Vandalism? Can you explain to me what is supposed to happen to the cracker? Isn't intended to be destroyed? I'm fairly sure that's not vandalism, since - apart from anything it does not affect the value of the object which is intended for destruction anyway.
Ditto destruction of 'private property' and accessory to theft. If you actually read through the post you'll find that the cracker he used was one obtained by a catholic who kept it and sent it to him.
So it was freely given - both to PZ and the person who sent it to him. No theft; not 'private property'.
Many ex-catholics have reported doing exactly that to crackers over the years. If you're going to charge PZ for what he did then I suspect you're going to have to do exactly the same to many thousands of people.
Good luck with that.
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 24, 2008 10:39 PM
#1582 Posted by: JDH | July 24, 2008 10:13 PM
And the Jewish people have been persecuted for a few thousand years longer, if you read and believe their documentation... So what's your point?
Some of my ancestors were nearly wiped out by the invasion of Christians on multiple occasions and forced into slavery or some other horror because we were pagans. Generally, I don't waste time with that.
You really need to get over yourselves... since for several hundred of those 2000 years, Christianity (the Catholic, or Universal, variety) was the default government of most of the western world - you can't claim to be in-charge and persecuted at the same time. Well, technically, you can, but you'd be incorrect in said statements.
JBS
Posted by: AgnoAtheist | July 24, 2008 10:39 PM
Sandi (1371)
"(you)...insult me as a person."
It is your ideas that are being ridiculed. If others are not allowed to criticize and laught at your ideas then you are not allowed to criticize of laugh at any other religion's ideas including jihadism or satanism. Get it?
That you personalize these criticisms is not our responsibility. You keep making a comparison between racism and your freely chosen set of ideas. The comparison, as has been pointed out, is baseless.
Posted by: Ignignockt | July 24, 2008 10:39 PM
Bob,
How is the assault, harassment, and death threats towards the UCF student no one's business? Who issued the death threats again? Explain again how mocking the idea of transubstantiation = throwing bricks through windows. Do you really need someone to explain why a human life is of greater value than a wafer, and why this situation and those responsible should have been "left alone"?
Posted by: Ella Rache | July 24, 2008 10:39 PM
All those who've refuted Bob Smith's ramblings, bravo. You've met the nail and the hammer. ANd JohnathanL sums it up best saying, "What has become obvious is that some of you NEED to believe that an athiest can not become a happy, healthy, productive and upstanding person on their own. That would be a direct assault on your beliefs and so you reject the notion completely."
The only thing I'd add is that, when a 'truth' is passed down via edict (such as being written in the bible), it is completely subjective. It is the subjective 'truth' of the book (or, you would say, your god) that says gays are an abomination or that uncovered nakedness is a sin. Claiming that your god is being objective for you... that's all kinds of weak, man...
Posted by: John Lightfield | July 24, 2008 10:40 PM
My mother is Lutheran, so slightly different beliefs about what the cracker "is" than Catholics, but either way she is allergic to gluten, so she cannot take the cracker at communion... seems inconvenient for someone not to be able to partake in one of the two sacraments.
the good news is she cannot desecrate the flying spaghetti monster either
Posted by: FranW | July 24, 2008 10:40 PM
my new mantra:
WWPZMD?
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 10:41 PM
Igni, I need an explanation of why a human life is of greater value than a wafer. I mean, I need a fully satisfactory one, that doesn't derive an ought from an is. Don't go giving us more of your made up moralizing--I can get that from the Catholics.
Posted by: dinkum | July 24, 2008 10:42 PM
Okay, then please enlighten us.
Is the wafer in the picture consecrated?
Posted by: decrepitoldfool | July 24, 2008 10:42 PM
Amanda, I'm going to quote a Christian writer named CS Lewis, so this will be in words you understand. It's from memory but I assure you the gist is correct:
Think about that for a moment. Assuming for the moment that the biblical narrative were true, Jesus said of people who pierced his physical (both in accident and in virtue) body; "Father forgive them, they know not what they do." But of anyone who would harm a child, he said; "Woe anyone who would cause one of these little ones to go astray. It would be better for them if a millstone were tied around their neck and they were cast into the sea." He said; "Let the little ones come to me, for of such as these are the kingdom of heaven."
Now I'm trying to imagine Jesus showing up and hearing you say that injuring a ceremonially blessed cracker is worse than stealing, worse than rape, worse than covering up rape in the name of God, worse than, well, anything. You think we should be impressed with your religious whining?
Posted by: black wolf | July 24, 2008 10:42 PM
bob smith,
PZ didn't touch a single person. He did not go on Catholic blogs to attack them, threaten their lives, publish their addresses after his friends had threatened their lives, demand they burn American flags and crosses etcetera.
That is what your friends in faith did here.
If you think publishing your opinion on a blog and demonstrating what you think of primitive superstition equates exterminating an entire people, your conscience is practically non-existent. As many others have here, you are the one demonstrating why PZ did that. He brought your immoral, death-obsessed, ethically ignorant mindset to light. We now know that it is people like you who the world needs to fear, and that apparently Christianity is no better in its hatred of freedom and intellect, and its love for submission, totalitarianism and oppression than Islam, National Socialism and Communism. Thank you.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 10:42 PM
You don't even know what you're trying to talk about. Free will? Free from what? Your genes? Your genome doesn't predetermine everything you're going to think and do. No one with any cursory knowledge of modern genetics would argue that.
As for the sex part, here's a newsflash: most normal young human beings like to fuck, a lot. It's what keeps us growing as a species and it is one of those things that we do have a strong predisposition for. Read some legitimate academic studies on sex education and condom usage versus abstinence only programs. Those studies send a fairly clear message: pretending really hard that young people can stop fucking each other doesn't make it so, so it's best to try and make sure they do it safely and in such a manner that prevents unwanted pregnancies.
As for the multiple partners bit, I have no idea what you're referring to. Monogamy works just fine for me. Open relationships tend to complicate things on my end, but I suppose they could work for others. Not my call.
Most of the atheists I know believe profoundly in developing personal responsibility. We don't say "God did it" or "the Devil did it" or "I was possessed." We live right here, right now, and we accept that we are very much responsible for our lives and our actions, not supernatural mumbo jumbo.
As for sin, there's no such thing. There's evil and immorality, to be sure, but the concept of sin is once built around a superfluous supernatural struggle for acceptance and forgiveness from your particular Invisible Alpha Male in the Sky. We don't buy it. We believe in natural laws and natural law enforcement, coming straight from other Homo sapiens.
Posted by: Cheezits | July 24, 2008 10:43 PM
A bunch of hateful atheists bragging about their master sticking a nail through the Eucharist will cause Catholics to abandon their faith? How's that?
More likely, seeing the insane responses from their fellow Catholics is what will scare them off.
Posted by: Catherine | July 24, 2008 10:43 PM
Hey fucktard John Lewandowski- What about the actual fathers that abuse their children. I was sexually abused by my CATHOLIC father for the first 14 years of my life and do you know what the judge said on his sentencing day (23 years ago)? He said: (and I paraphrase here) "I can't believe you are a man of God and served in the military and were caught (yes he said CAUGHT) doing this." I do not for a moment assign blame to the catholic church for his abuse but I do know that humans are just animals. We are prone to the instincts of survival and we are not a perfect specimen.
As an aside: my father was abused by his priest, the local candy store owner (a man who also was catholic) and his aunt (whose family, including my grandparents, were strict catholics). Go figure that out.
Posted by: Jeremy | July 24, 2008 10:43 PM
"I am saddened and sickened by your blatant disrespect for others beliefs as well as your mistreatment of Christ in the most holy Sacrament of the Altar especially on Thursday the day devoted to the Eucharist. You will remain in my prayers for a long time. May God have mercy on your soul. I should not want to be you at the moment of your death." - Debra.
But if God does have mercy on his soul, will the moment of his death be fine?
Posted by: RDS77 | July 24, 2008 10:44 PM
@1631:
He didn't destroy anyone's property, he didn't physically assault anybody, he didn't threaten anybody's safety or well-being--he posted a picture on the internet. Now who needs to leave who alone?
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 10:44 PM
black wolf, please, share some ethical enlightenment with us.
Posted by: CrrL | July 24, 2008 10:44 PM
Best post... full stop.
Posted by: Debra | July 24, 2008 10:46 PM
I pray also for whoever contributed our Lord to this horror and I pray for the professors safety both in this life and the next.
Posted by: bob smith | July 24, 2008 10:46 PM
#1639 is on the mark with this relativism and atheism thing. If everything is relative, then if #1577 decides that, in his individual view of morality, doing harm to the professor is what his 'creed' calls for, then you others must support him and his right to act like this.
That is the logic you are espousing by defending this professor's actions.
And that is the problem with relative morality -it justifies one's doing harm to another. Who are you to say that he cannot do harm to another, if that is what he believes, if that is his 'religion'?
Posted by: Janus | July 24, 2008 10:46 PM
Amazing how many (deliberately?) misunderstood the "Nothing is sacred." statement.
That nothing is sacred doesn't mean that nothing is important, or that nothing is meaningful, or that nothing is deserving of respect. It means that no belief should be protected from a critical mind. And if a belief is unable to defend itself against criticism, it shouldn't be protected from the ridicule it deserves.
Calling a belief "sacred" just happens to be the most popular way of protecting it from questions and potential ridicule.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 10:47 PM
Since this thread is infested with Catholics, I would like to explain one of the reasons I threw out your insane religion 41 years ago.
An interesting thing about Catholics is they must believe what the pope tells them to believe. Thinking for yourself is a mortal sin (penalty for thinking = eternal torture in hell). When I was growing up we never ate meat on Fridays. Since the penalty for eating meat on that day was torture, eating it was out of the question. Unfortunately my mother (a wonderful person) was not too good at cooking fish. So one day a week, for my entire youth, I went without meat and fish. Then the pope said "Starting today, go ahead and eat all the meat you want on Friday. You won't go to hell for it." My reaction was 'what the fuck!' Why did I have to spend my entire youth going without eating meat on Friday? It wasn't long after that, after getting tired of my asshole pastor demanding more money every Sunday, that I finally figured out Catholics are insane gullible morons, and suckers to give their hard earned money to shithead priests. I stopped going to church and eventually I figured out the 'magic sky fairy hiding in the clouds' idea was nothing more than an idiotic invention.
Posted by: SC | July 24, 2008 10:47 PM
a gratuitous disturbance of the social order
Be still my anarchist heart.
Posted by: Tabby Lavalamp | July 24, 2008 10:47 PM
FrereJacquesbaudet, not only were the Nazis not real Christians, I bet they weren't real Scotsmen either. The bastards.
"He doesn't know the humble God of the universe who he seeks to desecrate.
Posted by: dina624"
Exactly! And if anyone knows how to be humble (or loving, or merciful), it's a deity who created an entire species whose sole purpose is to bow, scrape and worship or face eternal torture.
In fact, God reminds me of an old friend of mine, perhaps the greatest parent I've ever known. He had four children, two boys and two girls. Like any good parent, he loved his sons and sometimes even his daughters (when he noticed they existed, at which times he would remind them to remember their place and obey their brothers). He loved them so much, he demanded they praise him several times a day.
One day, his younger son decided to stop praising him. He told the boy he'd better start praising again, or he would be hit in the face with a hammer for 24 hours straight. The son refused, but the next day the father, being the epitome of love and mercy, gave him another chance. This went on for a month, but the boy still refused.
So the father started hitting him in the face repeatedly with the hammer for 24 hours. It pained him to do so, he didn't want to punish his son like this, but the boy wilfully refused to obey. He got numerous chances to change his errant ways yet would not.
So for 24 hours, this loving, merciful, and humble man beat his son's face with a hammer in the most loving, merciful, and humble way I've ever seen. My friend said the punishment would have been longer, possibly even forever, but he is only human after all. Not as gloriously omnipotent as God.
The poor man though. After all that hammering, he couldn't even move his arm the next day! He's decided that next time one of his children disobey, he's going to set fire to them.
I know I'm an adult and already have two parents of my own, but I want to see if this loving, merciful, and humble man can adopt me and be my father too. And no, not just because he's going to start hitting people who refuse to be his children in the face with hammers!
Posted by: Ollie | July 24, 2008 10:48 PM
Damn, P. Zed, this has been enlightening. I honestly didn't know that the Catholics were so seriously fucked in the head. I'll never pass another of their fugly churches without cringing at the thought of the intentional brain damage being inflicted inside.
Muslims, sure, we all know about them, and the Jebus-humping evangelicals too... but the willful (WILLFUL!) ignorance displayed here by the Catholics is vertigo-inducing. What century is this?!?
Hey, Catholics! Being decent human beings: You're doing it wrong.
Posted by: ignobilty | July 24, 2008 10:49 PM
It's just a cracker. You mean Jeebus was from North Carolina too? Cool.
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 10:49 PM
keith, you believe in made up laws coming from other people, as opposed to a story about those laws coming from other people. Why do you think that's a profound difference?
Posted by: Visky | July 24, 2008 10:50 PM
You are wonderful!! Did you have more than one cracker? If so, you should do a series with different demises for each...without going to any expense, of course. ;)
I will so have to watch this blog now!!
Posted by: Patricia | July 24, 2008 10:50 PM
Good night sweethearts. #954 made me all squidgy, now I'm out for a shower & sangria. ;)
Posted by: protocol | July 24, 2008 10:51 PM
protocol, what's the difference? I mean, there's this idea that says people shouldn't harm the good professor for his little performance. Is that idea sacred? If it isn't--if in fact someone concludes it isn't true--then that means something, right?
do these ideas make truth claims? o.k. if you are not convinced by that, let us have a rational discussion about the "idea" or "principle" of not harming or threatening harm to anybody who happens to symbolically offend you. you non-vegetarian catholics offend me every day by eating meat (say i am jain, and religiously so). should i threaten the first catholic i see eating meat with violence? should i stalk them by email? should i threaten every catholic that laughs at, for instance, hindu beliefs (and trust me i have actually talked to enough Christians who openly mock polytheism, but somehow do not recognize their monumental hypocrisy)? hell the official catholic church discourages practices of other religions it sees as heretical and condemns those practices (the idea, i guess is to show "light" to the poor heathens and polytheists). notice no one here advocated actually physically threatening catholics for their beliefs. so by your logic all atheists should also openly threaten all catholics who have posted against pz here. indeed, we should actively seek all of them out and send them threatening emails because they threatened pz.
Posted by: bob smith | July 24, 2008 10:51 PM
#1658, he offended and upset and hurt many people by doing what he did. Just like yelling 'nigger' at a black person is offensive. No property is taken in that situation either. What Jesse Jackson said off-mike the other day about Barrack Obama was offensive (he used the n-word).
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 24, 2008 10:51 PM
For Thomas at #1659 - and the various sockpuppets he's using - try reading the post and the various comments here:
http://www.daylightatheism.org/2006/02/an-atheists-creed.html
Posted by: eigenvector | July 24, 2008 10:52 PM
Well done PZ! Well done indeed!!!!!
Posted by: Ignignockt | July 24, 2008 10:52 PM
Thomas,
A human life > wafer for a whole slew of reasons. The most utilitarian of which is simply that altruism = enlightened self-interest.
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 10:53 PM
Janus, I'm inviting you to defend a proposition that others on the thread might ridicule: No one should harm the good professor because of his little stunt. Defend away! But, again, please don't derive an ought from an is. And to the extent you rely on little moralistic sayings, recognize that some of us know that those are entirely conventional--they're no different from the religious beliefs other people have, and worthy of no more respect.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 10:53 PM
Catherine said: "Hey fucktard John Lewandowski"
Hey polite lady Catherine.
Catherine said: "What about the actual fathers that abuse their children."
What about them? They are just as rotten as the priests who do it.
Catherine said: "As an aside: my father was abused by his priest, the local candy store owner (a man who also was catholic) and his aunt (whose family, including my grandparents, were strict catholics). Go figure that out."
That's terrible. I will be certain to pray to God that such atrocities no longer take place.
So, anyway... did Catholic teaching tell them to rape children? I don't remember reading that in the Catechism.
Posted by: Kes | July 24, 2008 10:54 PM
Thank you Dr Meyers. Thank you for proving that you don't need religion to be a complete prat. That being a douche is acceptable if you're certain that you're right. That it's perfectly right to be an idiot if you feel the other side is stupid. Thank you for ensuring that rational thought will never be brought into the equation. In short, thank you for being a fundamentalist moron.
Posted by: articulett | July 24, 2008 10:55 PM
Nobody is against anyone believing whatever crazy crap they want. People have been believing crazy crap for eons. Some of them are even schizophrenic or have other reasons for believing it. Some believe it because they were promised "happily ever after" for believing it. Some believe it because they are afraid they will be punished forever if they don't believe it. You theists must quit pretending that people are trying to get you to stop believing... just because they laugh at you. You laugh at Scientology, right? Aren't you atheistic towards Xenu? Are you trying to convert Scientologists? Our reaction to your nuttery is the same. Get over yourselves. It isn't the Scientologists being the wackaloons here.
Beliefs like fetishes ought to be kept private if you don't want people giggling at them. Just saying-- you don't get to demand what we are supposed to "believe in" or demand our respect. Yes, it's true, we do think you are deluded and we do think we are smarter than you. But you think you are saved for believing a silly story-- so we are equal.
Yes, I know you've been indoctrinated to "believe" that atheism is another "faith"-- it isn't. It's a lack of faith. It is the same as your lack of belief in Scientology or Astrology or fairies. Really. No more. No less.
Your brainwashing has lead you to believe it is something to fear or despise-- that's how faith works... like a chain letter-- pass it on and you get rewarded; bad things happen to those who don't. But try and use what brain cells your faith hasn't damaged to understand that atheism is just exactly like your non belief in Voo Doo. That's it. It's a nothing. If you don't believe in voo doo dolls you don't worry about whether you might be desecrating one. See?
Really pretend it's Mormons posting hear all upset because of desecration of the magical undergarments. See how ridiculous you sound-- how nasty, superstitious,threatening, dishonest, and goofy you sound. That's how you sound to us. I don't need to try to understand you because I WAS Catholic--I had the brainwashing... I'm sure I may have been the same bigots against atheists you were before I learned to reason--I understood that all faiths need to make believers fear the nonfaithful--because it's the biggest threat of all to keeping their delusion alive.
If you theists are lucky, you may have the blinders fall of your eyes too. There is no more evidence for your magical beliefs than there is for all the other crazy things you don't believe in. And you are only more moral in your delusional minds. It doesn't translate to reality.
If not, blame a brain seeped in faith.
But if you really have faith-- quite trying to spin your delusion here... the bible tells you to pray in the closet, remember? And I think your magic guy can fight his own cracker battles and smite PZ without your threats if he feels like it. Since you imagine all atheists are going to your Christian hell (which is no problem since you all are going to Muslim hell)-- why don't you be nice to us here since your faith tells you we will be suffering for all eternity. You know-- show that compassion you imagine you have. It really should exist somewhere other than in your head.
Posted by: Neoteny | July 24, 2008 10:55 PM
My two cents: I approve.
Posted by: Sam | July 24, 2008 10:55 PM
Thanks for the history lesson, PZ. It amazes me to think that this whole Eucharist thing started back with the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 and involved so much ugly hatred. I know I had never heard of them before.
At first I really wondered why you were getting involved with the Florida student incident, but I didn't realize how very serious the situation had become in the US. The troll comments are very revealing as well as the threats the student and you received.
This whole cracker business should be a wake-up call to those both in and outside of the US. The situation could get worse if we ignore it, and it could spread outside the boundaries of the US. Rather than arguing with trolls maybe we should be discussing what we could be doing to prevent violence from happening over religion. I don't want to see history repeat itself.
Posted by: JohnB | July 24, 2008 10:56 PM
Beautifully written PZ, and brilliantly executed. (Bad pun, sorry).
Posted by: Scumop | July 24, 2008 10:57 PM
Nicely put. I've been aware of the cracker concept for a long time, never thought it would get exposed like this. Or especially that the catholics would be exposed as catho-islamists. I'm waiting for an embassy burning at this point.
What a sad cult.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 10:58 PM
Keyword, you vile and disgusting piece of shit is, noTHING.
Trying to endanger children's lives is not the same as upsetting people by dissing their religious beliefs. I know that to you they are the same, because you practice idolatry and worship crackers and wine and feel as though they are more important that living people.
(BTW, funny how that "blood of Christ" still gets priests drunk and the church opposes stricter drunk driving laws because they fear priests getting nailed for driving drunk. You'd think jebus would de-alchololize himself if he could. I wonder why he doesn't...could it because he's not real?)
Your reaction to Anon's post is exactly why I hold catholics in such low regard. Many of you care nothing about others, and especially nothing about children. You behave as though you're morally superior and yet you do unspeakable harm and evil.
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 10:59 PM
wowbagger, "self evident" is a cop out. I mean, nothing's sacred, but some things are really fucking stupid. So, please, don't go asserting that the made up moral premises you want to live your life by are somehow self-evident. That's a way of avoiding the question.
Igni, I suppose that someone might adopt the view for all sorts of reasons, but what would you say to someone who declined? That they'd really be better off if they believed that the principle is true, or at least acted as if they did? Wouldn't some people say that about religion?
protocol, that's no a defense. You're saying that you think it'd be bad for Catholics if they declined to believe in the proposition under debate. But that's not a reason to believe that the proposition is true, is it?
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 10:59 PM
BobC, you do realize that the prohibition on eating meat on Fridays is actually still in place, don't you? It's just that in the United States, that Friday sacrifice can be replaced with another form of sacrifice aside from not eating meat.
It's the sacrifice that's important, and not eating meat one day a week is a form of sacrifice. The meat in and of itself has nothing to do with anything. It's too bad you were never able to understand that.
Posted by: commissarjs | July 24, 2008 11:00 PM
JoeyD @ 1641
Right on JoeyD! Science cannot explain how the universe came to be. As all civilized people know the universe was created when the warm air of Muspelheim mixed with the cold air of Niflheim to create a cosmic cow and Ymir. To believe anything else would just be stupid!
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 11:02 PM
John at #1687: it's too bad that you were never able to understand that a ritualistic Friday sacrifice is not, indeed, important. It means nothing!
I feel bad for you as well. You really are missing out on alot in life. Have fun depriving yourself.
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 11:02 PM
Rayven, are you arguing with yourself? "Trying to endanger children's lives is not the same as upsetting people by dissing their religious beliefs. I know that to you they are the same..." Well, if to this person they are the same, that's the end of the story isn't it? I mean, unless you think your made up morals are true and his are false. You don't really think that though, do you?
Posted by: Rob Linford | July 24, 2008 11:03 PM
Well done.
Posted by: Funkstronaut | July 24, 2008 11:03 PM
Christianity is a dangerous life-style choice. Today, we examine a particularly bizarre extention of this cult, called "Catholicism."
The typical lair of the Catholic is decorated like a charnel house, complete with multiple idols of a half-naked dead man, hanging on a cross of wood. Many inculde potraits of a long-haired white man with a flaming heart bursting out of his chest. This speaks volumes about their obsession with death, and torture... something their Church has been commited to, throughout it's history.
Though their men folk are almost always authoritarian, over-bearing predators, with a perchant to prey on children (in ways psychological, and carnal), their women folk tend to be timid, stubborn, and intensely stupid cows, who have neither the power, nor will, to oppose the atrocities of their men folk.
The most mystical and mysterious of the Christian Cults... Catholics are much more likely to scrape, and throw themselves prostrate before corpses that they consider to be Saints. It's true! This death cult actually keeps corpses of their dead, to flaunt in front of their fawning followers! It is a culf rife with magic practice, including exorcisms, magic spells (called "Novena"), and communion with unearthly spirits.
This is only some of what I believe of Catholics... so now you must respect my views as truth. Any attempt to discredit my words will be met with sticking my fingers in my ears, closing my eyes, and yelling "blah blah blah blah!" as loud as I can.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 24, 2008 11:04 PM
It's very sad that these so-called followers of Christ need atheists to remind them that their own alleged lord's opinions on what sort of action to take in situations like is quite plain:
Forgive PZ, think about your own sins, and pray.
I don't see 'go to a blog, splutter, spew hate and make death threats' anywhere in there. No wonder the other sects think so little of the papists.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 11:04 PM
Bob you, and others, have repeatedly said that all priests are pedophiles. If you truly believe that then act on it. When you see a priest immediately attack and kill him. He is a pedophile right? You would be protecting children. Don't you want to save the children? So either act on it or shut up. You are either lying and don't believe it or you are a coward and will let children suffer because you won't kill the evil priests. You have justified killing them, so let's see you put your money where your mouth is.
The fact is that you are using the children. You are abusing them again. You take their pain and suffering to use for your cause. You are raping those children all over again for your sick pleasure. You don't care about child abuse one bit, it's just a throw away line for you. They are meaningless to you.
For freethinkers you all seem to think and say the same thing. You claim that when an atheist does something bad it is as an individual and that we can't blame atheism. If I say that when a Christian does something bad it is as an individual and you cannot blame the religion under any circumstances will you buy it? The fact is that many atheists have killed for their atheism (and yes that includes guys like Stalin and Hitler both of whom were atheists). Don't bother to deny it, we aren't buy it. Atheism kills.
One poster here not only called me a pedophile but referred to me continually as "it." By doing so he was objectifying me. That makes it easier to kill ones victim. Sociopaths do that. They deny the humanity of their victims. There are some very dangerous people posting here that truly believe nothing is sacred. You atheists admit it. They reject the humanity of those who disagree with them. Atheism is inherently violent. You doubt me? Then read this eyewitness account of atheist Christopher Hitchens at a meeting in New York:
"At the end of the event as he staggered, sweating and red faced, out of the room, he [Hitchens] advanced on Father Rutler in a threatening and physical manner, screaming that this beloved pastor and brilliant scholar whom he had never met was `a child molester and a lazy layabout who never did a day's work in his life'. His behavior was so frightening that a bodyguard put himself between Hitchens and Father Rutler to protect him. Several of the event organizers then escorted Hitchens to the men's room and when he emerged he continued his psychotic rant, repeating the same calumnious and baseless screed as before."
Atheism at its best.
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 11:04 PM
Lisa has it almost right: It means nothing. Except I'm guessing she doesn't really think that. I mean, having fun in life means nothing too, and yet she thinks it's important.
Posted by: Josh K | July 24, 2008 11:05 PM
Great post! That last, beautiful paragraph in particular.
Posted by: Breakfast | July 24, 2008 11:05 PM
Dear PZ,
I set the large version of the picture to be my desktop background. However, it was too gross. Anyway, thank you.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | July 24, 2008 11:06 PM
What I find amusing is all the catholics still posting here. PZ has obtained about 1700 posts in this thread in about 8 hours. Probably not a record, except maybe for Seed and ScientBlogs, but still very significant. This is ammo he can use with the University administration if they ever bother to discuss the issue with him.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 11:06 PM
John Lewandowski wrote:
Mr. Lewandowski, 'hate' is a very strong word. I don't think I hate anyone.
However some people are so bloody stupid, so gullible, and so obviously insane, I don't think I would want to have anything to do with them.
All religious people have something wrong with them, otherwise they wouldn't be religious. But fortunately some religious people, including Catholics, are not totally insane. They would probably give a shit if somebody didn't want to eat a cracker. They probably go to church only once or twice a year.
Unfortunately a large percent of religious people are so completely out of their minds, they're dangerous. They're so insane that they would violently attack a person who didn't want to eat a magic cracker. They would try to get that person, if he was a student, expelled from his university.
If a religious wacko was a world-class stupid asshole priest like Fr. J, he would try to get the person put in jail for not eating the magic cracker.
These kind of people deserve to be ridiculed for the rest of their pathetic lives. They are no better than Muslim terrorists and they deserve to be treated like terrorists.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 11:06 PM
Sam said: "Thanks for the history lesson, PZ. It amazes me to think that this whole Eucharist thing started back with the Fourth Lateran Council of 1215 and involved so much ugly hatred. I know I had never heard of them before."
Professor Myers is entitled to his own religious beliefs, but not his own facts. The belief in the Eucharist existed hundreds of years before 1215:
"And he was carried in his own hands. But, brethren, how is it possible for a man to do this? Who can understand it? Who is it that is carried in his own hands? A man can be carried in the hands of another; but no one can be carried in his own hands. How this should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it was meant of Christ. For Christ was carried in His own hands, when, referring to His own Body, He said: `This is My Body.' For He carried that Body in His hands."
-St. Augustine, 4th century
Posted by: galapagos | July 24, 2008 11:08 PM
AHAHAHHAHA
A.
GOD.
DAMN.
CRACKER.
!!!!
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 11:08 PM
John, you do realize that the point of fish on Friday isn't sacrifice, right? A corrupt pope made that edict after getting bribed by fishermen.
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 11:10 PM
Fr. J: so you admit that child molestation and rape by priests is a real problem? Then why the fuck aren't YOU doing anything about it?! Why are you not sickened and appalled by it as we are? Your last post really shows what a sick and dangerous fuck you are. Catholicism at its best, my friend.
Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist | July 24, 2008 11:11 PM
@Bob Smith #1631:
This is the internetz, not a church, not somebody's home, not actually a public place. It's virtual (in a teleological way).PZ threw the cracker away in his own house. He published his thoughts on his blog.
No one is obligated to come here and read what he did. If you hadn't come here of your own free will, you would not have been offended. Now get thee hence and say 3 Hail Marys.
Sandi, the Haldol is in the medicine cabinet. Go take some and then say a rosary.
Ed, ok Senator McCain, we're on to you. Glad to see that you've learned to get online. Now get the hell off!
Posted by: Phentari | July 24, 2008 11:11 PM
It's really sort of depressing how many "good Christians" are willing to wink knowingly at #1577's actions. Bob, I'm looking in your direction here.
"Bluster, splutter, well, of COURSE I don't condone posting information that could possibly put innocents in danger...but, gee, he had it coming, and he kind of asked for it, and, and, and..."
I see no difference between these folks and the "moralists" who insist that they don't condone rape, but, gee, if that little Jezebel hadn't been dressed like a tramp and had been at home where she belonged, it never would have happened...
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | July 24, 2008 11:12 PM
Hey Sandi!
Why don't you get your codswalloped brain out of attack mode and answer the questions I asked in post #1340.
Let me repeat them for you-
How exactly do you determine the validity of the consecration of a wafer resulting in its transubstantiation? How do you arrive at that logical conclusion that the wafer then transforms into the physical flesh of Jesus, or is it the essence of Jesus?
I smell a hypocritical turnip, and its name is Sandi.
.
ChristOCrackers - Without 'em, you don't stand a Holy Ghost of a chance!
...
..
.
Posted by: Debra | July 24, 2008 11:13 PM
Fuck you god I hate you.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 11:13 PM
LisaJ said: "I feel bad for you as well. You really are missing out on alot in life. Have fun depriving yourself."
Lisa, self-denial teaches a person humility and temperance. Perhaps if more humanists developed these abilities, they would find it possible to not have sex with multiple partners.
You don't need to be religious to value humility and self-control.
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 11:13 PM
"Lisa has it almost right: It means nothing. Except I'm guessing she doesn't really think that. I mean, having fun in life means nothing too, and yet she thinks it's important."
What?!?
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 11:13 PM
It's the sacrifice that's important, and not eating meat one day a week is a form of sacrifice. The meat in and of itself has nothing to do with anything. It's too bad you were never able to understand that.
Posted by: John Lewandowski
The only thing I needed to understand was I wanted to eat meat but I couldn't eat meat because your asshole shit-for-brains pope said I couldn't eat meat.
By the way, us atheists can eat anything we want, and we don't have to sacrifice anything.
You gullible morons let your idiotic religion run your lives. You're slaves and you don't even know it.
Posted by: Joel | July 24, 2008 11:14 PM
You threw in the garbage something you believe to be a cracker, while garnering all the attention you could milk out of it, solely for the purpose of showing a billion people - who never did you any harm - how much you hate them. Congratu-fucking-lations.
Posted by: pablito | July 24, 2008 11:15 PM
@GOD, 1439
--whoo--
eep. dood. big hit. all yours. man. whoah. good stuff. thanks for that.
----phooooooo -----
Wow. Jah love. 'S funny stuff, innit?
Posted by: Alan | July 24, 2008 11:16 PM
"You deserve to die for this. You are lucky that Catholicism, unlike Islam, is not a violent religion. Nonetheless, watch your back.
Posted by: Inquisitor"
LOL!! Professor Myers, I believe you have succeeded in proving what you set out to demonstrate.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 11:16 PM
Lisa, child abuse is a problem among all races, classes, religions, and yes atheists. It is a human problem. If priests were the ONLY abusers you would be right. But the vast majority of children are abused by relatives, teachers, and others. Percentage wise the number of priests is below the national average.
BUT if you really want to know the problem, and this is not politically correct, the problem is homosexuality. Now the homosexuals will go nuts, but even they privately know it is true. They get you to concentrate on a few priests and to ignore the real culprits. That is sick and dangerous. It is even more dangerous that you are so easily manipulated. Now if you think I am being hateful and bigoted...think of the children. If you care about them then concentrate on the real threat. You should be brave enough to go against political correctness if that means dealing with the real problem, right?
Posted by: RDS77 | July 24, 2008 11:17 PM
"#1658, he offended and upset and hurt many people by doing what he did. Just like yelling 'nigger' at a black person is offensive. No property is taken in that situation either. What Jesse Jackson said off-mike the other day about Barrack Obama was offensive (he used the n-word)."
Yes, those are both highly offensive, but neither one is comparable to any of the scenarios you described earlier (which involve acts of physical destruction and the literal invasion of personal space), nor is posting a picture on a personal blog, no matter how offensive it may be to some people. No one is twisting anyone's arm to visit this site, and as has been said countless times before, there is no such thing as the right to not be offended.
Posted by: sinanju | July 24, 2008 11:17 PM
Um, excuse me.
Does Prof. Myers ever find time to conduct scientific research, publish in Biology and lecture to students of the subject in between torturing crackers and posting bizarre, anti-catholic blog entries?
And does the University of Minnesota have an Islamic Students Association? They might not be so harmless as the christers.
Posted by: Pvblivs | July 24, 2008 11:17 PM
Fr J:
A bit of reality. Hitler was a christian, not an atheist. It is, of course, inappropriate to tar all christians with the brush of Hitler. But you are either lying or grievously misinformed.
Posted by: scorebert | July 24, 2008 11:18 PM
@Fr J, #1694
Hitchens was a Marxist pundit before he was an atheist pundit. Marxism is unscientific in that its propositions are not falsifiable per Karl Popper nor are its hypotheses divisible, Marxism is meant to be indivisible and unfalsifiable. Hitchens came from a non-scientific background and now he's the show atheist on Fox News or what have you, but that doesn't mean that rank and file atheists subscribe to his style.
That said, he is good at ripping into people, now and then.
Posted by: John Lewandowski | July 24, 2008 11:18 PM
BobC, for some reason, not eating meat one day a week doesn't COMPLETELY RUIN MY LIFE. Wow. Talk about a Holy Cow.
And you're being hateful again!
Rob said: "John, you do realize that the point of fish on Friday isn't sacrifice, right? A corrupt pope made that edict after getting bribed by fishermen."
Was that before or after the Easter Bunny ate Santa Claus' Gingerbread Men, resulting in the Salem Easter Egg hunt?
Posted by: paradoctor | July 24, 2008 11:18 PM
What I could see of the Quran page was in English. If it's an English translation of the Quran, then by Islamic standards it's not a Quran at all, and indeed belongs in the trash. (Which of course puts in doubt any non-poetic meaning of the Quran, but that's another issue.)
PZ, despite yourself you are a religious thinker. You wish to debunk images, like Abraham smashing idols, or a Zen master burning a Buddha statue, or Russian Iconoclasts breaking ikons, or Puritans making a bonfire of the vanities.
Such purist zeal is refreshing, within limits. If you tell this sort of joke once then you're a wit, but if you tell it twice then you're a half-wit. And alas, those in most need of the jest are the least likely to get it.
Skewering (literally!) atheism along with Catholicism and Islam was a nice touch. It shows circumspection and irony. You say; doubt all, even me. Well, yes.
Posted by: GSmith | July 24, 2008 11:18 PM
You FUCKING BASTARD!!!! You will pay for desecrating a the God Delusion!! Richard Dawkins will drive nails through your eyes and rip your ears off and pull your teeth out for all eternity for this!!! And I'll be laughing the whole time!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 11:18 PM
No Fr. J, the problem is organized religion. It is sick and dangerous, as the so-called religious posters, yourself included, have demonstrated time and time again.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 11:19 PM
Before I even read the posts to come calling me names for pointing out the problem of homosexuality let me just say:
Nothing Is Sacred........right?
Posted by: DingoDave | July 24, 2008 11:19 PM
Posted by IngoB #1541: -"It was hardly the point of my analogy that some Catholics have the maturity of three-year-olds concerning their religion. But naturally that is true. Just as one can find a good many atheists that act childishly about their convictions, or conservatives that display immature conservatism, etc. None of which in any way or form excuses Prof. Myers'. What he claims to have done is - insofar as it is a highly publicized act - a gratuitous disturbance of the social order and of the emotional peace of a good many people..."
A gratuitous disturbance of the social order? A disturbance of the emotional peace of a good many people? WTF???
You can have 'social order' and 'emotional peace' in a PRISON mate, but that doesn't neccessarily mean that the rest of us would like to live in one.
Every time I look at this page, it seems that one more piece of idiocy has been added to it.
"May the Lord have mercy on the cracker, and may God forgive you, because I won't!" (mumble fuck, mumble fuck)
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 11:19 PM
Lisa, just what I said. You tell yourself that what you believe is true, but your beliefs have the same foundation as the beliefs of those you disagree with. "Having fun" isn't any different from anything else people believe is important. And none of its important, except to you.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 11:20 PM
I don't know why we have to keep repeating this but here goes AGAIN....
For those who think we Atheists are ever so mean for picking on religious folk by doing this, please take a moment to look around and notice where you are.
This is not a Catholic website. We did not invade their space and force them to watch PZ desecrate a cracker.
This is PZ's PERSONAL blog. It is frequented by mostly ATHEISTS. This is PZ's space. the catholocs invaded and WANTED to get offended.
They feel violated because they WANT to feel violated. They are here by choice. They came here for the purpose of getting offended. They need to take responsibility for that choice.
We did not walk into their *home* and start picking on them, they came to ours and chose to get angry about what a group of Atheists were doing to a cracker in a personal blog.
That is the problem with religious thinking. You feel people are forced to respect your silly beliefs even within their own personal space. That is what is abusive. Someone desecrating cracker and sharing the experience with friends in his own personal blog is not abusive.
Posted by: Lysa | July 24, 2008 11:20 PM
Intrusting. PZ desecrated The Frackin Cracker... and yet the world has NOT in fact come to an immediate and spectacular end! What could this MEAN, I wonder? Maybe that the whole Body of the Host is a LOAD OF CRAP?
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 11:21 PM
Because the major laws we have in this country today, while not being anywhere near perfect (nor should they ever be expected to be), have evolved through centuries of intellectual trial and error and progress. Most of them are on the books because they currently make some sort of good sense, but are subject to change once better understanding comes along. This is very much unlike the Bible, which claims to have had all of the answers a little under two thousand years ago. Freethinking people have consistently shown this not to be the case and that the Bible is very wrong on very many fronts. You may want to start researching beyond your little holy book, it's outdated.
I prefer law which is human made and gradually self-correcting over untouchable sacred nonsense any day.
Posted by: galapagos | July 24, 2008 11:22 PM
IM WITH #1721.
F*CK YOU MYERS. YOU THINK YOUR SO TOUGH, DESECRATING "THE GOD DELUSION"... IF YOU HAD TOUCHED "BREAKING THE SPELL", EVERYONE WOULD BE RAISING HELL RIGHT NOW. EVERYONE IS ALWAYS PICKING ON DAWKINS. I BET YOU WOULDNT MESS WITH A COPY OF "GOD IS NOT GREAT", COWARD.
Posted by: Sastra | July 24, 2008 11:23 PM
bob smith #1662 wrote:
You can only persuade people to change a moral point of view by appealing to a common standard which they already share. You don't get an 'ought' from an 'is' -- you get it from an 'if/then.' If you wish to be moral (good, fair, kind, just, happy), then you ought to do X.
Even religious morality relies on this. IF you wish to be moral (or happy), THEN you ought to obey God. It works the same way.
The problem is, that there is nothing more subjective than religious belief. Gods go everywhere, in all directions. What a person chooses to have "faith" in -- and how he interprets what he believes God wants -- is largely the result of arbitrary accident of culture, upbringing, and matters of taste. And, unlike secular morality, it can't be firmly anchored in common ground and demonstration.
Who are you to say that the Muslims suicide bombers are wrong about God, when they know themselves that God doesn't want them to listen to you? The easiest way to justify causing harm to another is through religion, because human accountability is allowed to hide behind God's commands. What appears true on the surface can be 'false' to the believer initiated into secret revelations held only by the other believers like them, and given by a God whose demands cannot be questioned.
I think you have it backwards, then. Secular morality can more easily find common ground, because we all share this world, and a common human nature. Ethics which are relative to God can throw off the world, and we don't share a common religion.
Once morality gets into arguing over what God wants -- instead of what leads to fairness and happiness here on earth -- then all bets are off. It is easier to persuade someone that they're wrong about a fact in the world than it is to persuade them that you know God, and they don't.
Posted by: commissarjs | July 24, 2008 11:24 PM
Fr. J @ 1694
Hitler was a catholic. He went through confirmation. He even claimed to be a catholic on numerous occasions.
"I am now as before a Catholic and will always remain so."
Hitler donated money to the catholic church up to April of 1945. I guess that when he used the word god in all those speaches he was referring to a different god or something. Or perhaps he wasn't a true Scotsman.
Posted by: Fr.J | July 24, 2008 11:24 PM
Hey God you make me sooo wet. God, why don't you stroll over here and place that wooden stake in my hot quim? You can eat crackers in my bed anytime you big immortal being you. God I am sooooo fucking hot for you, like a choir boy in heat spread eagle on a pew. Waiting patiently for you smoldering love bone... Fr.J
Nothing sacred, right?
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 24, 2008 11:25 PM
Fr. J - disingenuous turd:
You do seem to have trouble with reading comprehension, but I'm feeling indulgent (and you don't even have to pay me for it, unlike your church leaders).
Atheism = not believing in god/s.
That's it. The whole thing, summed up. Nothing else. No moral code, no rulebook, no instructions on how to behave, no guidance - nothing. Atheists may construct their own equivalents, but that's up to them. Nothing to do with their non-belief in god.
I'll re-use an analogy you conveniently ignored before - you're looking at a bald man and telling him his non-hair is parted on the left and not the right.
That an atheist can be an asshole has absolutely no reflection whatsoever on atheism.
Your religion, on the other hand, claims moral superiority because of a special relationship with god. Oh, of course there's the convenient excuse of free will or human failings or the corrupting influence of original sin or whatever tapdance routine your professional obfuscators have come up with to try and conceal the facts that people who believe are no more moral than those who don't.
Apart from anything else, your religion teaches you that it's okay to do bad things, seriously bad things, as long as you ask god for forgiveness. Rape, kill, steal - that's fine; you've got a get-out-of-jail-free card. Doesn't matter about the victims of the crime; you're back in with god because you said 'pretty please with sugar on top.'
Are you familiar with the levels of religiosity in the US prison population? Perhaps you should check those out - they say a great deal about the relative moral values of theists vs. atheists.
As for the priests repeatedly raping children and being protected by the church hierarchy: if the god you speak of it truly kind and loving then he would not have let one child be molested. That it happened many, many times, with the blessing of the church, is enough reason to believe that if your god exists he is monster.
Posted by: Cheezits | July 24, 2008 11:25 PM
Was that before or after the Easter Bunny ate Santa Claus' Gingerbread Men, resulting in the Salem Easter Egg hunt?
I'm just dying to see that movie. :-D
Posted by: Thomas | July 24, 2008 11:25 PM
Keith, I think you are entirely confused. You think there's such a thing as a "perfect" law, but it isn't clear what kind of standard there would be for that. You think that "better understanding" is possible, but of what? Moral "truths"?
Are you sure the bible claims what you say it claims? I think that's a contested claim, to say the least. Certainly Catholics don't believe that. You don't understand the beliefs you want to make fun of, and you don't understand your own beliefs.
Posted by: Matt Braynard | July 24, 2008 11:25 PM
You don't have a problem with religion, you have a problem with Freedom and what people choose to do with it. Individuals are free to exercise religion as they see fit, particularly when it doesn't impose anything on you.
It is true that the Church does engage in public policy issues as an organization of individual citizens collected under the banner of shared belief, petitioning the government for certain laws, etc., which *might* impose on your life somehow.
But rather than engaging in debate or protest against the public policy issues that may affect you, you instead steal property from the Church and desecrate it.
While you could more reasonable object to the Church being involved in a public policy process, you instead target for ridicule and desecration the Eucharist which is stolen and are, in effect, assaulting the individually chosen beliefs of fellow humans for no other reason than to express your own hatred for their self-determination and for free expression.
We could also assume that you are smart enough to know that this is not a way to open people eyes to the mistaken ways of their beliefs. I guess you lacked the sophistry and semi-intellectual capabilities of Dawkins.
But you aren't smart enough to realize that this was a great way for you to get yourself killed by our less tolerant brothers, the Muslim Fundamentalists (see Pim Fortuyn) - but at least we Catholics will pray for you.
Posted by: N.K. | July 24, 2008 11:26 PM
Hey, God just got killed.
Why hasn't society collapsed yet?
Unless God isn't REALLY A CRACKER?
Also, come on guys, push this to 2000.
Posted by: Kasei | July 24, 2008 11:26 PM
I don't know what all the fuss is about. The cracker is God, OK, I buy that. As a loyal member of The Church of the Flying Spaghetti Monster I consume my lord's body on a weekly basis. I think the question we need to all ask ourselves is this : Marinara or Alfredo sauce?
Posted by: Dave | July 24, 2008 11:30 PM
This sad excuse for a professor is a good example of someone educated far beyond his intelligence. He to make up for his mediocrity by attempting to gain attention by shocking people.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 11:30 PM
Ah #1732 I guess homosexuality is sacred to you. Truth hurts eh?
Apparently not every post by Fr. J is from the real Fr. J. I am afraid I don't have time to go back over 1700 posts to see which ones are really mine.
Hitler was raised Catholic, renounced his faith, and embraced atheism. That makes him one of you. Read on:
All of these are quotes from Adolf Hitler:
Night of 11th-12th July, 1941:
National Socialism and religion cannot exist together.... The heaviest blow that ever struck humanity was the coming of Christianity. Bolshevism is Christianity's illegitimate child. Both are inventions of the Jew. The deliberate lie in the matter of religion was introduced into the world by Christianity.... Let it not be said that Christianity brought man the life of the soul, for that evolution was in the natural order of things. (p 6 & 7)
10th October, 1941, midday:
Christianity is a rebellion against natural law, a protest against nature. Taken to its logical extreme, Christianity would mean the systematic cultivation of the human failure. (p 43)
14th October, 1941, midday:
The best thing is to let Christianity die a natural death.... When understanding of the universe has become widespread... Christian doctrine will be convicted of absurdity.... Christianity has reached the peak of absurdity.... And that's why someday its structure will collapse.... ...the only way to get rid of Christianity is to allow it to die little by little.... Christianity the liar.... We'll see to it that the Churches cannot spread abroad teachings in conflict with the interests of the State. (p 49-52)
19th October, 1941, night:
The reason why the ancient world was so pure, light and serene was that it knew nothing of the two great scourges: the pox and Christianity.
21st October, 1941, midday:
Originally, Christianity was merely an incarnation of Bolshevism, the destroyer.... The decisive falsification of Jesus' doctrine was the work of St.Paul. He gave himself to this work... for the purposes of personal exploitation.... Didn't the world see, carried on right into the Middle Ages, the same old system of martyrs, tortures, faggots? Of old, it was in the name of Christianity. Today, it's in the name of Bolshevism. Yesterday the instigator was Saul: the instigator today, Mardochai. Saul was changed into St.Paul, and Mardochai into Karl Marx. By exterminating this pest, we shall do humanity a service of which our soldiers can have no idea. (p 63-65)
13th December, 1941, midnight:
Christianity is an invention of sick brains: one could imagine nothing more senseless, nor any more indecent way of turning the idea of the Godhead into a mockery.... .... When all is said, we have no reason to wish that the Italians and Spaniards should free themselves from the drug of Christianity. Let's be the only people who are immunised against the disease. (p 118 & 119)
14th December, 1941, midday:
Kerrl, with noblest of intentions, wanted to attempt a synthesis between National Socialism and Christianity. I don't believe the thing's possible, and I see the obstacle in Christianity itself.... Pure Christianity-- the Christianity of the catacombs-- is concerned with translating Christian doctrine into facts. It leads quite simply to the annihilation of mankind. It is merely whole-hearted Bolshevism, under a tinsel of metaphysics. (p 119 & 120)
9th April, 1942, dinner:
There is something very unhealthy about Christianity (p 339)
27th February, 1942, midday:
It would always be disagreeable for me to go down to posterity as a man who made concessions in this field. I realize that man, in his imperfection, can commit innumerable errors-- but to devote myself deliberately to errors, that is something I cannot do. I shall never come personally to terms with the Christian lie. Our epoch Uin the next 200 yearse will certainly see the end of the disease of Christianity.... My regret will have been that I couldn't... behold ." (p 278)
He sounds EXACTLY like you people.
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 11:31 PM
Dude (Fr.J), I was one of those children, so I don't need any instruction from an idiot like you on how to correctly 'think of the children'. I am off to bed, because I have a real job to go to in the morning, where even a day full of mouse dissections and PCR will contribute more to humanity than you ever will (in your current state of delusion anyway).
As for your spiel on homosexuality. Real original. You're disgusting. Can't you see how your religion has bred hate into your thought process? Seriously, take a good objective read over your posts here. It should be very enlightening.
I won't be responding to any more of your posts here. Anything else you may have to say to me will be the same old crap anyways, so just look back at my previous posts for a fitting response.
Posted by: Dave C | July 24, 2008 11:31 PM
I'm not much of a confrontational fellow, so I would never pull a stunt like this, but I've got to say that the responses from the reactionary quarter of Catholic America have been...illuminating. If he were alive today, I think Jerry Rubin would be impressed at your ability to "highlight the contradictions," PZ.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 11:31 PM
I looked it up. Catholics were required to abstain from meat on Fridays. They changed the rule in 1966. Then, finally, the asshole pope allowed me to eat meat on Friday.
I went to Catholic school from kindergarten thru 8th grade. Except for one year all my teachers were nuns. I know every Catholic belief, every Catholic ritual, every Catholic rule. I look back on it all now, and I have to say the Catholic religion is the most idiotic invention in history. Every single one of their beliefs is pure bullshit. The idea that one old man, who wears a dress and a funny hat, has the final word on what every Catholic must believe, is way beyond insane. There is nobody more gullible than the Catholics. They're all suckers. The priests and other Catholic leaders who make a living off the suckers are all assholes.
Posted by: Keith B | July 24, 2008 11:32 PM
Reread Thomas, I didn't say anything about laws being perfect. As for where law should go knocking when it wants knowledge to base itself off of, I say that academic science and non-religious philosophy is a wonderful place to start.
Posted by: Phentari | July 24, 2008 11:32 PM
It's interesting to see that Fr.J is the sort of person who believes that as soon as the imprimatur of "sacred" is removed, the appropriate response is to wallow in emotional crapulence.
Curiously, Father, I know quite a number of atheists who don't do that. Why is that, do you suppose? Also, why is it that I only ever hear "Without God, there are no morals" from supposedly good and pious folks?
Posted by: bob smith | July 24, 2008 11:33 PM
#1704, it is all over the news (on internet news sites) - the news said he desecrated it and had a link that led to this blog.
I think you are missing the point (or being a hypocrite?) The professor WANTS this to be public -- he claimed to do this in defense of the UCF student who interrupted a Catholic Mass and took a Host. He is on some 'holy' crusade to show how Catholics are stupid, or something like that, and how anybody therefore has the right to interrupt their doings because they are stupid people worthy of being hated.
Why? I can only fathom from what he said and did, because he hates them. No other reason comes through. He despises their beliefs, and hence despises them, and so he offends them by attacking what they hold dear. And in a very public manner. He is publicly flaunting his hatred of Catholics. (Some of his students, if he has students, are most likely practicing Catholics and he no doubt has offended them greatly.)
Why he chose to take a stand on this is beyond me. Why anyone would reveal themselves and go public with so much hate, is beyond me.
"Look at me world, and look at how much I hate Catholics!!"
Posted by: melior | July 24, 2008 11:33 PM
Sure Jesus tastes great, but why isn't he more filling?
For more uproarious amusement, see the way the holy Catholic Church's official apologists wrestled each other to a stalemate in a massive battle of mental masturbational skills:
Catholic Encyclopedia - The Real Presence of Christ in the EucharistIt only lost some of its funny when they killed everyone who laughed.
Posted by: Bonzo | July 24, 2008 11:33 PM
WHAT!!! You desecrated a banana??? Damn you! You monster!
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 11:34 PM
Fr. J - those were from those forged Hitler diaries. Nice try.
Posted by: John | July 24, 2008 11:34 PM
And PZ's minions rejoiced. *Yay!*
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | July 24, 2008 11:35 PM
I see Fr. J is still being a fuckwit and a wackaloon. Homosexuality does not equal pedofilia, and to say so if bald faced lie. Get a grip on reality, and do some real research in the psychology journals. For a supposedly intelligent you come across a doddering senile fool.
My problem with the church and the pedophile priests is the cover-up. Any other group is appalled by such crimes and tries to punish the perpetrators. Not the catholic church, which makes it an immoral organization. Sir, you claim to belong to an immoral organization. Time for you to either work at making it more moral, or getting out of it. Be a man, and make a decision and live with consequences.
Posted by: Phentari | July 24, 2008 11:35 PM
Actually, Fr.J, I believe Hitler would wholeheartedly agree with your views on homosexuality and its evils.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 24, 2008 11:35 PM
To Matt and all the other Catholic cowards with fatwa envy who wave imaginary evil muslims about while claiming Catholics are so much better:
Here's the current tally of messages in my email from outraged religious people.
Catholic hate mail: approximately 12,000.
Muslim hate mail: approximately, umm, precisely...0.
Guess which one worries me more?
You don't get to claim the moral high ground. My experience so far is that there is a subset of Catholicism that is truly vile and hateful, and will readily threaten evil acts against people who find their crackers foolish.
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 11:36 PM
Lisa, all abuse is wrong. But to hate an entire class of people because of the actions of a few? If someone said all Muslims were terrorists would you accept that? I was once robbed by a black man, so should I hate all black males? It makes sense to blame the person who hurt you, but not to hate all of us as a group.
Posted by: Cheezits | July 24, 2008 11:36 PM
Once morality gets into arguing over what God wants -- instead of what leads to fairness and happiness here on earth -- then all bets are off. It is easier to persuade someone that they're wrong about a fact in the world than it is to persuade them that you know God, and they don't.
Sastra, have I ever mentioned that you're my idol? :-D
People who use the phrase "relative morality" when speaking of secular morality reveal a poor understanding of how humans determine what is right or wrong. In a humanistic system of morality, harming other people is never justified on the basis of "that's just his religion". If you want to know if something is wrong, just ask yourself how you would like it if someone did it to you.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 24, 2008 11:36 PM
So, in other words, you do think trying to put children's lives in danger is equal to my (or PZ's ) dissing of your religion? I'm very thankful that most of the human race disagrees with you.
I would like to see a few decent and sane Catholics come here and tear you evil whackjobs a new one. I have known Catholics who would not do such an evil thing as to place children in danger, so I know they exist. I suspect they are not here because the only ones who know or care about this issue are Donahooey and his cult. I can't wait until IP's are traced and we find out which one of you is the great hooey himself.
Posted by: Shane | July 24, 2008 11:36 PM
"Professor Myers is entitled to his own religious beliefs, but not his own facts. The belief in the Eucharist existed hundreds of years before 1215."
Who cares when they made this nonsense up. It isn't true--the little piece of bread is not Jesus. Really, it's not. I grew up (nominally) Catholic and the only thing that really scares me about this whole thing is that there are actually (alleged) adults who believe this nonsense. This is stuff that at I could see through at the age of 9. This whole thing is ridiculous. Magic god-damned wafers and flying leprechauns. Sigh. This is really why the human race is doomed.
Jesus is dead. It's been 2000 years. Get over it. This isn't healthy.
Posted by: Kerlyssa | July 24, 2008 11:37 PM
#1748
First off... # 1748? Will the saga of the cracker and the koran NEVER END?
Secondly, of course he desecrated a banana. Bananas are an atheist's worst nightmare, after all.
Posted by: Beth | July 24, 2008 11:38 PM
This is such an awesome post. I've loved all the drama this week. My favorite bits are the catholics who come in who so obviously DO NOT GET IT and just keep driving your point home again and again.
Posted by: Phentari | July 24, 2008 11:38 PM
"Lisa, all abuse is wrong. But to hate an entire class of people because of the actions of a few?"
You've made your hatred for atheists pretty plain, and you certainly make no bones about talking about atheists as one homogeneous mass. What did you call them? "You people?" I used to hear that one down in Louisiana, but it wasn't directed at atheists.
Posted by: Jeremy | July 24, 2008 11:38 PM
I love how the religious nuts like to say "He's your Savior and Lord too whether you believe it or not!" while they simultaneously say we can't insult their religion. Hello? Irony anyone? Telling me your God is my God too is insulting to me. So take your fairy tale somewhere else.
Posted by: Jennie | July 24, 2008 11:39 PM
Well I've missed quite a bit!!!
Kisses to you too Ed!!!!
Here! Have some hugs with those kisses!!!
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!
Posted by: Odonata | July 24, 2008 11:40 PM
This post isn't about hating people; this is about criticizing beliefs. We need to be able to express our opinions even if others disagree.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 24, 2008 11:40 PM
Matt Braynard wrote:
Matt, you're wrong. You might not be affected but that's not to say that others won't be. Numerous deconversion stories say that mocking, irreverence and the refusal to acknowledge a chosen belief system as 'special' is exactly what prompted people to free themselves from religion.
If you read everything from the start you'd realise that PZ was inspired to do what he did because some people in a church tried to force someone to adhere to their interpretation of a belief system.
Posted by: Matt | July 24, 2008 11:41 PM
Professor Myers committed a completely ignorant and closed-minded, hateful act. Does it really matter if he believes that this is the Body of Christ? It is complete and total arrogance that he insists that he, a zealous man to the point of irrational ideology, has seen clearly what 92% of humanity cannot comprehend.
I love Professor Myers and will never wish harm to come to him or his children. I am not even convinced that he should lose his job over this. If I could meet him and simply talk, that would be enough for me - no need to spew forth the kind of anger and hatred that Jesus Who Catholics believe the Eucharist is died against.
He offended my most deeply held beliefs, something I forgive him for. I do not believe his beef is with me, though. He did not simply offend me. If I am right, He desecrated the most sacred thing in the universe. What gives Myers the right to declare nothing sacred?
What Myers did in his own self-centered ignorance is between him and God, or at least his conscience. But he should acknowledge that many of his fellow humans are horrified that he can desecrate something seen as sacred by so many people.
-Matt, Harvard 2011
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 11:42 PM
You just don't get what people have been saying over and over again, have you? The problem isn't the abuse (although that is a problem, no matter who does it). The problem is the coverup. That's not the actions of a few, that's actions of many.
Posted by: Fr.J | July 24, 2008 11:42 PM
This is the real Fr.J. In fact, I like to make stuff up about Hilter, so you can really just skip that part, but everything else I've said is true. Did I mention I was abused as an adult? I'll be right there daddy..did I just write to? Hmm. Anyway, you atheists are all wrong because I have a book that says so. It was writena a long time ago by Noah and Moses and Jesus and Abraham and Earl and Daryl and his other brother Daryl and a few other really neat people. In my church we spike the wine with Viagra for a fun sunday afternoon picnic. The premium tither ladies really enjoy the show I tell you. Anyway, back to my point. Jesus is in the cracker and it really, really true. There was a study in Liberia last year by a doctor who said it was true and even Fox news reported it so it must be true. Besides, if you don't believe it my loving God will burn you forever. I'm told that's a very long time. Gotta run, Project runway is on.
Blessed be the God of love and may he send all of you to the firey pit of Hell.
Love,
Fr.J
Posted by: Fr. J | July 24, 2008 11:42 PM
#1751 will you admit that priesthood also does not equal pedophilia? Will everyone else here agree to that?
Rob, no they are from his Table Talk.
PZ, how nice of you to drop by. Have you read the hate mail aimed at me on your blog? I am catching up to you fast. No one can hate like an atheist. I doubt you are worried one bit. You will sleep soundly.
Good night. Pax
Posted by: Bryan | July 24, 2008 11:42 PM
Fr. J,
All of your intense pondering, ranting and reaching for signs of weakness and moral depravity of your rational enemies doesn't give your argument any more weight. Your doctrine is not true. God is imaginary. It is the product of poorly evolved men who sought power in life as all humans do. There is no perfect way to live.
I think you should actually read PZ's post and try not to hate him while you do it. Your insecurity and hatred has put you in a bubble of your own "self-satisfied ignorance". I understand that forcing yourself to believe has probably been your life's work. You are, presumably, in the business of keeping yourself gratified by what you tell yourself must be true. What if it doesn't have to be true? Is it not possible that your wrong?
It is possible that I'm wrong. I'll believe your doctrine for ANY reason; so long as I actually believe it. However, I'm not going to force myself to believe it. Is that what I must do? In order to believe as you do must I force it upon myself by surrendering even my faculties of reason. How would I then defend my beliefs, even to myself?
I'm sure you believe. But your beliefs are indefensible.
Posted by: oaksterdam | July 24, 2008 11:42 PM
Funkstronaut #1692
diggin' the style. rawk on!
oh and i found the bong god was looking for earlier. turned out i was holding it. my bad.
Posted by: Greg Laden | July 24, 2008 11:42 PM
Number 1700:
"And he was carried in his own hands. But, brethren, how is it possible for a man to do this? Who can understand it? Who is it that is carried in his own hands? A man can be carried in the hands of another; but no one can be carried in his own hands. How this should be understood literally of David, we cannot discover; but we can discover how it was meant of Christ. For Christ was carried in His own hands, when, referring to His own Body, He said: `This is My Body.' For He carried that Body in His hands."
I thought that was about masturbation.
Posted by: articulett | July 24, 2008 11:42 PM
Hey faithers... there is no such thing as divine crackers, divine truths, heaven, hell, invisible forms of consciousness including ghosts, souls thetans, incubi, demons, hobgoblins, angels, or aliens from another dimension. You guys are all on the same ground when you claim to know something about these mystical immeasurable truths... the same ground as those preaching the myths of yesteryear. When something is real, the evidence accumulates. The evidence that is accumulating regarding faith is that humans are very vulnerable to magical thinking and will die and kill for crazy things because somebody made them believe it was a magical message from a divine source.
Yes, science doesn't know everything. But faith has never revealed anything measurably true or useful. Science has an error correcting mechanism-- faith does not.
If crackers had god in them, then we should be able to test it and the evidence should accumulate... you know, like it's done for DNA. Religion shouldn't be so afraid of scrutiny--if it were true, that is... and had nothing to hide.
Remember, Airplanes fly whether you believe in them or not. And the internet exists and evolves without a planner. Medicine advances as does technology and our understanding of the universe. These things are brought to you by science. What in the hell has religion given us except various groups of people all certain that they are saved and more moral than everyone else because of what they BELIEVE. Sadly, they all believe different things.
You are on a site for rational thinking.... try showing some of that respect you demand for your idiocy-- or go to a place where you can slap each other on the back while telling yourself how moral and great you are while spinning prejudice against those who tell the truth-- the real one-- not the magical divine one that you have to "believe in" for it to be true.
Ugh... I know all theists are not as vapid and hateful as the ones posting here... but damn I'm glad I never inflicted the idiocy on my kid as it was inflicted up me. And I am proud of PZ for helping to skewer the idiocy of it all.
Posted by: Rilke's Granddaughter | July 24, 2008 11:42 PM
John Lewandowski @1614. I'm afraid you've just told a lie. Please prove that you're not lying by specifically citing all these atheists who tell you that " they think it is impossible for human beings to avoid having sex with multiple partners. In other words, they disbelieve in free will."
You will be unable to support your irrational claim.
Bearing false witness carries with it the penalty of eternal damnation, I'm afraid.
Posted by: scorebert | July 24, 2008 11:43 PM
thanks @Rob, #1749
I was worried that having misplaced the definitive link on those quotes that I'd never find it again. Looks like googling for the text doesn't help since infidels.org doesn't know better (you'd think they would.)
I better Fr J thinks that Abraham Lincoln was a Christian. Lesson is that the theist liars are always willing to make up false history after the fact. Witness the fake deathbed confession of Darwin to being a theist, or the apocryphal story of Spinoza and the mud puddle. Liars will do as liars will lie.
Posted by: Janus | July 24, 2008 11:43 PM
Thomas,
I'm not sure why you would ask me to "defend" a moral belief. Moral beliefs are preferences. They're subjective. They can only be argued about with someone who shares (some of) the same moral premises. For example, if we both hold the belief that self-aware life has value, and a few other common moral premises, it's fairly easy to reach the conclusion that PZ shouldn't be murdered. If you don't share this moral premise with me, there's no debate to be had, and I can do nothing except take action against you.
It's not that moral premises are unfairly protected from criticism, it's that "criticizing moral premises" is a meaningless phrase, exactly like "criticizing one's taste in ice cream".
That said, moral beliefs which aren't premises can be criticized on objective ground in two cases.
First, if two moral beliefs held by the same individual contradict each other. For example, some people claim to believe that people should be free to do everything that doesn't harm or impinge on the freedom of other people; but they also believe that people shouldn't be free to take drugs, or to kill themselves, or other such things. A logical contradiction is an objective fact, and can be attacked as such.
Second, if a moral belief is based on a belief about reality that is false. For example, Muslims believe that the creator of the universe wants them to kill apostates, therefore they should kill apostates. A claim about reality is an objective claim, and can be attacked as such.
And that is what's different between purely subjective beliefs and religious beliefs. Religions are composed of faith-based (and therefore, almost certainly false) beliefs about reality, and of moral beliefs based on these beliefs about reality. Therefore all religious beliefs can be criticized.
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 11:43 PM
Thomas, the difference is (and we've all raised this sentiment over and over and over and over again), that if someone interfered my ability to have fun on say a Friday evening I would not write to their boss to demand that they lose their job, threaten their life or safety of their family, or condemn that person to burn in a fire dungeon for all eternity.
This would really never happen though because, as a grad student I have no time for fun. So your entire argument to me falls flat. I find it creepy how you thought that you even knew something about me personally in the first place.
Anyways, once again, goodnight.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 24, 2008 11:43 PM
Get your head on straight, no one here said they hate all catholics, no one here abused you or any other catholic for being catholic. We ridicule you because we don't respect you, as an individual. And that is because respect has to be earned, and you have earned nothing but contempt from us.
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 24, 2008 11:43 PM
#1749 Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 11:34 PM
I was just going to ask Fr. J if he had the correct Hitler Diary, because there was a fake (or possibly several), but you've taken care of that - thanks, Rob.
JBS
Posted by: donna | July 24, 2008 11:44 PM
And God smiled. ;^)
PZ, you have invoked all the trickster gods today -- bravo.
Posted by: BobC | July 24, 2008 11:44 PM
Just in case anyone missed it on another thread, Fr. J came out in favor of putting the student who didn't want to eat the cracker in jail. He said he himself would try to do that if he ever caught anyone not eating his magic cracker. He would demand that the police put the person in jail. Of course any policeman would laugh at the shithead Fr. J if he tried that.
I'm sure everyone here agrees that the priest Fr. J is an asshole, but I thought I would share this information anyway.
Catholic hate mail: approximately 12,000.
Muslim hate mail: approximately, umm, precisely...0.
That doesn't surprise me. Muslims in America keep a low profile. The only terrorists living in America are Catholics.
Posted by: BG | July 24, 2008 11:46 PM
I agree with #1682 and perhaps it should start with MORE public cracker destruction. PZ shouldn't have to bear the brunt of the nutjob fury. If youtube suddently explodes with cracker desecrations the Catholic Justice League will be forced to 1) ignore 2) recant or 3) prosecute every "hate crime".
If they want this to be fought in a public forum with real consequences then so be it. We should take the fight to them.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 24, 2008 11:47 PM
I did not claim that the rite of communion did not exist before 1215. I said the 4th Lateran Council codified the doctrine that only an ordained priest could carry out the ritual.
Fr. J, I've found you to be quite good at hating. And at being very stupid. Your whining is inappropriate.
Posted by: postsimian | July 24, 2008 11:47 PM
PZ just won the month of July.
Posted by: Rob | July 24, 2008 11:48 PM
Fr. J - you mean those talks that have no independent verification and have never had similar ideas expressed in any other communication, public or private? Those talks?
Posted by: Tom Friedman | July 24, 2008 11:49 PM
The next six months will tell us whether the cracker is just a cracker.
Posted by: Phentari | July 24, 2008 11:49 PM
Meh. I'm going back to the octopus thread.
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 24, 2008 11:51 PM
Whoa... This comment thread must be an epic thread if it's got Woot posting.
Of course, this now means that I can nominate Woot for a Molly. Freakin' awesome!
Posted by: bybelknap, FCD | July 24, 2008 11:52 PM
Sandi you stupid, ignorant fuckwit. Black people come by their blackness naturally. PZ has no interest in making fun of people for characteristics over which they have no control. Demented assholes who have a choice over whether or not to believe a bunch of superstitious bullshit deserve whatever ridicule they get for believing in superstitious bullshit.
Obviously you are incapable of making such a distinction, and you deserve to be mocked for your monumental demented fuckwittery.
I firmly believe in your right to believe in whatever you want, and to proclaim it as loudly as you like, just as I have the right to tell you that your beliefs are demented, stupid, bullshitty superstition.
Your belief that calling black people "niggers." is the same as calling your beliefs moronic is well... as stupid as your belief that a cracker IS the body of a dead guy.
So, you've made your case. It has been found wanting, repeating it doesn't make it any better. You are a dumbfuck. It is time for you to shut up now. You stupid fuck.
Posted by: melior | July 24, 2008 11:52 PM
But you're not, it's just a cracker. So you can understand now why we're all laughing at you.
Posted by: LisaJ | July 24, 2008 11:52 PM
Phentari at #1760: thanks for responding so I don't have to. I totally concur.
Posted by: Dave C | July 24, 2008 11:53 PM
Matt said:
How charitable of you.
Posted by: Paul | July 24, 2008 11:53 PM
recipe #138: Our Lord and Sushi
Top cracker with a small portion of aerosol cheeze wiz. Slice pimento olive in two and place one half on top of the cheese layer. Drape a thin anchovie over the top. Add one drop of tobasco to simulate the pain and suffering of His sacrifice and to give the hors d'oevre a spicy kick. Some crackers can be darkened with a drop of wine (i.e. human blood) to give the appearance of white meat and dark meat. Goes well with lamb and fish. Instantly cures and blindness, lameness and leprocy. Does not cure sciatica, tendonitis or excema. God knows why...
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 24, 2008 11:54 PM
For the real Fr. J (aka Disingenuous Turd):
Why do you keep confusing race/ethnicity with beliefs/ideology? You do realise they are different, don't you? For someone who claims to have such a high IQ and hold many degrees, you seem a bit thick if you can't understand that one is a choice and the other isn't. That's kind of important when you're talking bigotry.
Or do you remember the process where you got to choose to be a straight, white male (because, obviously, you would'nt have chosen to be gay, female or black/jewish - since you've displayed your loathing of those kind of people over and over again) before you were born?
Posted by: anthropic | July 24, 2008 11:54 PM
Rarely have I seen a more delusional and hypocritical twit than "Fr." J.
Hitler, you paralyzed prat, was never excommunicated. Please tell me why that is. There was only one Nazi leader who was because and that's because he married a protestant woman. A case of the enmey of my enemy, eh? The truth is the Nazis were coddled by the church, and don't try to deny it.
And in recent history, the entire world saw the church protect pedophiles so they could ply their craft over and over again. We won't even touch the crusades, the inquisition, the orgies popes had and the millions that were tortured and executed.
We (I'll take the liberty to speak for all the nice folks here on Pharyngula) deal with evidence here. We don't accept the ramblings of an ancient book as anything other than a second-rate story told by people who did not understand the universe around them and who wanted a base for controlling the population.
So just go away. You are a complete loony tune and do not belong in a discussion with rational people. Go practice your medieval crafts on the sheep that listen. You are hopeless.
Posted by: commissarjs | July 24, 2008 11:55 PM
Fr.J @ 1714
So homosexuals are the real problem? It has nothing to do with someone being in a position of authority sworn to celibacy and with access to children and cloaked in the internal secrecy of the church.
When I was a teenager a young seminary student was assigned to my parish for a summer. He was gay. Very very gay. Flamboyantly gay. He was also one of the most cheerful and positive people I ever met despite the fact for years equal amounts of guilt and pity had been heaped on him by his family and parish priest for him being gay. He had been advised to enter the seminary and devote his life to god as atonement for being attracted to men. Evenn being as young as I was I knew it was wrong that he couldn't live the life he wanted without being forced from the church he loved. That was one of the many reasons I left the church.
As a side note he gave me a copy of The Life of Pope John Paul II published by Marvel Comics. Before that I had no idea that comics could be used to tell a story more complex than an adolescent power fetish involving a buttkicking directed towards criminals. So not only did meeting him help me leave the church it also started a lifelong interest in comics. Viva la Spider Jerusalem!
Posted by: JT | July 24, 2008 11:55 PM
Awesome! Good job, PZ!
Posted by: anthropic | July 24, 2008 11:56 PM
sorry for my typos guys. I got excited :-)
Posted by: aarrgghh | July 24, 2008 11:57 PM
... reminds me of something williams s. burroughs once said:
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 24, 2008 11:59 PM
Bybelknap, hey! Long time no see? It's hard to tell with the insane number of posts lately.
Have you been busy or just avoiding the cracker insanity?
I've been trying to spend less time on here myself but it's just too hard. It's more like crack than crackers...
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 25, 2008 12:00 AM
Emmet Caulfield @ # 1033: Thanks for the suggestions.
The best such book I've found in several years of casual digging is Michael Phayer's The Catholic Church and the Holocaust, 1930 to 1965 - highly recommended, though not for those with high blood pressure problems.
Susan Zuccoti's Under His Very Windows: The Vatican and the Holocaust in Italy also fills in a number of important details (including how low-level Catholics risked their lives trying to stop what their Holy Father unhesitatingly condoned).
Would it be gratuitous to point out that the current occupant of the Throne of St. Peter is the only pontiff known to have fired upon British and American troops? Oh well: that's how the cracker crumbles.
Posted by: articulett | July 25, 2008 12:00 AM
Thomas says: [I]"Second, if a moral belief is based on a belief about reality that is false. For example, Muslims believe that the creator of the universe wants them to kill apostates, therefore they should kill apostates. A claim about reality is an objective claim, and can be attacked as such." [/I]
First, Thomas, you don't know what the "creator" of the universe is telling Muslims.... he's invisible and undetectable and indistinguishable from a voice in the head-- right?
And by your own reasoning above, the claim that consecrated crackers have Jesus in them or are different than regular crackers can be attacked because it clearly conflicts with objective reality.
Yes, we know morals are subjective... everyone thinks they know what god wants... unfortunately they don't agree with each other. That's why we live in a secular world--so your wacky beliefs aren't inflicted on me. I don't need to believe in magic crackers and I don't need to believe that god wants me to die for him... and I don't need to believe that psychiatrists are evil and that my problems are due to body thetans.... I don't need to "respect" or defer to any of it. It's all wackadoodle to me. Keep it in the closet please.
Posted by: black wolf | July 25, 2008 12:00 AM
Fr. J, those quotes are from 'Table Talk', by the anti-Catholic Bormann. There were no recordings whatsoever of these conversations except for what Bormann wrote on hearsay, edited and most importantly, never provided any originals. Hitler's alleged thoughts in TT are unique compared to all of his recorded speeches and writings. They contradict every thing Hitler ever said on any other occasion. They never denounce Jesus or his personal Christianity; in fact Hitler allegedly speaks admiringly of Jesus in TT.
So, do you choose to believe a very questionable source of uncorroborated and contradictory hearsay, or do you believe Hitler's evidential own words? Both can't be true.
Posted by: AgnoAtheist | July 25, 2008 12:01 AM
Fr. J, there must be someone who needs excommunicating. Go! Go! Go!
Posted by: teh07h3r0n3 | July 25, 2008 12:03 AM
fantastic! apparently, mr. donahue is not familiar with the finer points of law -- anything that would offend him gets a cry of "discrimination!"
but, because pz did not single out catholics, applying his "desecration" with a broad brush stroke to all things unsacred, there is no way a discrimination charge will stick.
genius!
it's about time these thin-skinned christians learned to live with offense like the rest of us,,, that's life.
cheers
Posted by: Fr.J | July 25, 2008 12:03 AM
Wowbagger,
As the "real Fr.J", I am offended by not being offended (or properly addressed) by your post. It is me you should be addressing, not some "Disingenuous Turd" who doesn't know a cracker from his ass. The "other" Fr.J is a fake. Anyway, my IQ is in the high 60's, it seems to follow my age, but in reverse...
Posted by: teh07h3r0n3 | July 25, 2008 12:04 AM
fantastic! apparently, mr. donahue is not familiar with the finer points of law -- anything that would offend him gets a cry of "discrimination!"
but, because pz did not single out catholics, applying his "desecration" with a broad brush stroke to all things unsacred, there is no way a discrimination charge will stick.
genius!
it's about time these thin-skinned christians learned to live with offense like the rest of us,,, that's life.
cheers
Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 12:04 AM
#1715, i think it was the professor who wanted this to be a public spectacle. He did it with the intent to offend. Why? Because some kid disturbed a Catholic ritual - a Mass - and took a Host to piss off the Catholics at that Mass. So the professor went on a 'holy' crusade to also desecrate a Host to show his support of the offending student who caused a scene at the Mass.
This I believe is his stated motive and he did it on purpose and wants it public -- he is purposely poking Catholics in the eye, deliberately provoking them, by purposely showing his hate for them.
He could have just left them alone and minded his own business, but no, he felt this action had to be taken against those hated, idiotic Catholics.
It is he who instigated this - it is he who showed hate and wanted to show hate of Catholics on a world stage.
Ask him why he did it, please, if you are unclear.
Posted by: Scott C | July 25, 2008 12:04 AM
BRAVO!
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 12:05 AM
That's not science, dumbass. That's you being mocked and pilloried because you've repeated every moronic talking point like it's a fact and have refused to acknowledge your ineptitude.
There are no Hindu Gods, we are both atheists to the Hindu Religion.
We are both atheists to the Muslim religion.
We are both atheists to Chinese Ancestor Worship.
We are both atheists to Mormonism.
We are both atheists to a great many religions current and extinct.
The only difference is that you are Atheist -1 where I am Atheist 0. You just have to hold onto one religion, in which you're heavily indoctrinated like any cultist, that's just as phony as the rest. The archaeological record shows your religion to be nothing but a heavily cobbled-up version of Judaism originating from the Essenic Jews.
But you'll never go there because you're afraid. You're a gutless coward who can't face his death and non-existence.
And because of that, you end up in a bizarre nihilistic religion that makes you and its fellow practitioners miserable. Even as you kid yourself that you're happy.
Face it, dude, Paul was the L. Ron Hubbard of his day. Christianity the Scientology. And you've got nothing.
Live your damn life. It's the only one you'll get.
Posted by: Mark Macaspac | July 25, 2008 12:05 AM
I have a message for you from heaven, "You Will See HELL when you go there" - Padre Pio. I really pity you for what you have done. I hope you are in the Philippines because I ASSURE YOU it will be a living hell for you. During the concert of the BEATLES here, almost everyone attended the said concert and after the concert, they could not believe the great crowd before them so one of them shouted "We are even more famous than Jesus Christ!" Everyone started throwing things at them. Anything that the people could pick up. If you were here you will regret it. Please repent! I KNOW WHY YOU DID THAT BECAUSE NO ONE LOVES YOU. NO ONE CARES FOR YOU AND EVERYONE IGNORES YOU YOU DID GET THE ATTENTION BUT THE PEOPLE HATED YOU MORE. AND THAT INCLUDES ALL OF YOU AGREEING TO WHAT HE DID.
"ADOREMUS IN AETERNUM SANCTISSIMUM SACRAMENTUM!"
Hail o Adorable Face of Jesus present in the most Blessed Sacrament more resplendent than the sun. Hail thou noble seal of the divinity thou mirror of divine perfections with all the powers of my soul I turn to thee of Jesus and humble pray thee to imprint upon our hearts all the Features of thy divine countenance"
email me and react anonymous_anon2001@yahoo.com
Posted by: anthropic | July 25, 2008 12:09 AM
PZ,
After reading all this crud from these delusional cretins throughout the day, I'm forced to admit I was wrong in #793. Clearly you have had much more first-hand exposure than I have to these idiots. When I'm wrong I'm the first to admit it.
Perhaps this is one hornets nest that needed to be whacked :-)
Posted by: swangeese | July 25, 2008 12:09 AM
Well done Professor Myers!!
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 12:09 AM
bob smith:
Since your attempt to guess PZ's mind here was such a spectacular fail, why not go read his post and the previous ones now where he explains very clearly why?
Posted by: black wolf | July 25, 2008 12:09 AM
John,
"Professor Myers is entitled to his own religious beliefs, but not his own facts. The belief in the Eucharist existed hundreds of years before 1215:..."
Strawman! PZ did not say the belief didn't exist prior to that date, he said it was codified in 1215, and he is correct. Either you have a problem with basic reading comprehension, or you are deliberately obfuscating the issue in order to falsely make PZ appear ignorant.
Posted by: Annie M | July 25, 2008 12:10 AM
Dear PZ
I have been watching (read lurking) all of this unfold, and have felt it a great roller coaster of emotions.
I have read things I would NEVER expect to come out of Christians mouths. Accordingly, some of the atheist tribe haven't exactly been ambassadors of their beliefs as well.
There have been times where I have been cheering for you and times where I have been confused by your actions. Overwhelmingly there have been the times where I have feared for you and your family's safety.
It has been a very thought-provoking time, especially when the darker side of the power of the internet is exposed...
I am glad that the desecration was "tasteful" and that you included the God Delusion as well a point hugely worth making, and I am so glad you did. Mr Dawkins would heartily approve no doubt.
Take care of yourself and your family PZ, hopefully things will settle down somewhat, and we can look forward to many more postings about "sciency", squidey, eight appendaged thingies .
Thank you for forcing a lot of your 'lurkers' way out of the comfort zone. That's why I love your blog.
I remain your gentle reader!
Posted by: David Davidson | July 25, 2008 12:11 AM
Looks like the shitstorm over the last two weeks was just warm-up. Kudos, Professor Myers. I won't pray for you, but I will hope you can weather what's coming.
Posted by: Jobar | July 25, 2008 12:12 AM
You... you SHOVED A RUSTY NAIL THROUGH A CRACKER?!
Man, the Georgia State Patrol is gonna BURN YER ASS!
(Really, that was awesome, PZ. Simply awesome!)
Posted by: commissarjs | July 25, 2008 12:14 AM
I for one am horrified that the entirety of the Philippines hates PZ, me, my fellow posters here, and the Beatles. So are crazed religious zealots still crucifying themselves in the philippines during easter week? Or has a wave of sanity washed over the country?
Posted by: nozzle 2 | July 25, 2008 12:14 AM
Christians are domesticated terrorists. I wouldn't be worried if I was you. They got tamed after Britain broke up with the Pope. Before that they were hardcore, now they're all cuddly.
Posted by: Kel | July 25, 2008 12:14 AM
Matthew
5:38 Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
Note those are the words of the J-man himself.
Posted by: Cerebelle | July 25, 2008 12:14 AM
PZ, this post is wonderful. The eloquence of the prelude you wrote before the "big" reveal was a joy to read, and including "The God Delusion" was a nice touch. I linked your post on my blog.
You have support all over the net! Keep on truckin', PZ!
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 12:15 AM
Mark Macaspac (or is it Anon?), PZ is not in the Philippines, so you and your Jesus can go suck on a lemon. Last I heard, people in the Philippines use catholicism to forget about the corrupt government. You religion is little more than opium.
Posted by: Eva, Ravingatheists.com Mod. | July 25, 2008 12:15 AM
BEST.
POST.
EVER.
EVER.
EVER.
Posted by: Arnosium Upinarum | July 25, 2008 12:15 AM
SUPERB.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 12:16 AM
Bob Smith - get your facts straight.
At a church service, Webster Cook (a Catholic, btw) tried to take the host with him rather than consume it. He did not do it to 'make a scene' or 'piss of catholics'; he was going to show to a friend who was curious.
Was that wrong? Yes, but only by the standards of the church. If it had stayed within the church none of this would have happened. They could have spoken to him about it and dealt with it themselves.
But they didn't. The catholics tried to make a big deal out of it; the 'faithful' responded by making threats of violence, legal action and expulsion.
PZ heard about it and responded.
Feel free to criticise what PZ did, but make sure you have the whole story first.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 25, 2008 12:16 AM
And the hits keep coming...
"During the concert of the BEATLES here, almost everyone attended the said concert and after the concert, they could not believe the great crowd before them so one of them shouted "We are even more famous than Jesus Christ!" Everyone started throwing things at them."
I'm sorry, but if you have enough of a hate boner for the friggin' BEATLES that you fabricate a story like that, then you're just a failure as a human being. Give me John, Paul, George, and Ringo over Jesus, Moses, and Mohammed any day of the week.
Posted by: KM | July 25, 2008 12:16 AM
Bob Smith @ 1550:
Sure. All that holds if you maintain a very simplistic view of both atheism and objectivity. There are much more nuanced understandings of both that are compatible with one another. The kind of "relativity" I suggest is not one that threatens the notion of an objective atheist evaluative scheme. Please see Amartya Sen's paper, "Positional Objectivity", for more. There are, of course, some problems with his arguments but it will give you a good starting place for understanding a more nuanced conception of objectivity that can handle your challenges without invoking the supernatural.
Posted by: Elijah | July 25, 2008 12:16 AM
As he says, Dr. Myers did not assert that the rite of communion began in 1215. His second paragraph does seem to imply, though, that the actual presence of Christ in the sacrament was invented at that time in order to provide something with which to stir up mobs against Jews. That is false. The real presence is taught in the New Testament, or, if one finds the New Testament ambiguous, it's also taught by Ignatius of Antioch in the early second century, long before the Catholic Church had any temporal power (Christians, including Ignatius himself were being put to death for their beliefs, so those beliefs would hardly be advantageous in a worldly sense).
Furthermore, would it make any sense for the Church to invent something for the purpose of inflaming mobs against the Jews and then forbid Christians from mistreating them? That is what the Church did. Christians, on pain of excommunication, were forbidden to forcibly convert Jews, 'seize, imprison, wound, torture, mutilate, kill or inflict violence on them', or 'disturb them in any way during the celebration of their festivals'. The pope who issued the statement was also adamant that the lies about Jews killing children and other such nonsense cease immediately, so much so that he decreed that a Christian witness should not even be accepted against a Jew.
By now, I would hope that anyone who doubts the truth of the above would be demanding evidence, a thing I've seen precious little of on this thread so far. Anyone who's interested will have to copy and paste though, because I don't know how to do links.
http://www.papalencyclicals.net/Greg10/g10jprot.htm
Posted by: multipath | July 25, 2008 12:17 AM
I don't know how the atheists who disagree with PZ can read all these religious posts and not think that these people need a serious slap in the intellectual face.
Posted by: nozzle 2 | July 25, 2008 12:18 AM
@Kel, #1820
Not to interpret your history, but isn't the whole turn the other cheek about code duello. As in, back then there would be a cheek smacking to call someone out to a duel, and for your cult, the response would be to ignore the challenge? Or am I wrong here and the conventional interpretation of that passage as a generality the correct one?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | July 25, 2008 12:18 AM
Fr. J appears to be caught in some type of time warp. Based on his comments, I would guess late fifties to early sixties. Anything that happened after that, including his last post and responses to it, just doesn't seem to register.
Sandi has a similar problem. She just can't seem to update her ideas with reality. Any atheist can be moral, and most I know start with the Golden Rule. This is backed up by game theory, so there is a semi-scientific basis for using it. This allows real limits to be drawn on politeness and true criminal behavior. Using the Golden Rule, religion just becomes one philosophy amongst many with no special powers. Asking me to respect your cracker like you do is asking for special powers. If you applied this to the orthodox jew down the street, you would be required to keep a kosher household as otherwise it might offend them.
My apologies for my earlier spelling and grammar errors. Time for bed.
Posted by: articulett | July 25, 2008 12:18 AM
It will be a glorious day when the theists are hiding in the closet fearing mockery--and rationalists are free to speak their mind without fear of the irrational who threaten to bash in brains because someone doesn't respect their holy wafer.
Thanks for moving us one step closer to that day, PZ.
I consider the bluster to be dying squeals of the "faith in faith" paradigm.
Posted by: Cheezits | July 25, 2008 12:20 AM
So what if Catholics believe it is Jesus?
It ISN'T Jesus. Claiming that it is offends the former Christian in me - they are worshipping a friggin' piece of *bread* and making life miserable for some guy just because he didn't worship it the way he was supposed to. I can understand someone worshipping Jesus; I think it's wrong to worship a person, but at least I can respect that. A wafer is nothing to kill or die for.
Posted by: DingoDave | July 25, 2008 12:20 AM
IngoB wrote @ #1541:
"What he [Professor Myers] claims to have done is - insofar as it is a highly publicized act - a gratuitous disturbance of the social order and of the emotional peace of a good many people..."
Both you and your 'social order' are welcome to go shaft yourselves. (Patricia, do you still have that pineapple?)
You sound just like every other petty, theocratic despot who has ever sought to subjugate his fellow citizens under his own iron fist.
Read this verse from the Koran, and see if you can spot the difference between it, and what you claim to believe about your own religion.
I offer it to you in three different translations, so that I can't be accused of bias.
Koran: The Dinner Table. 5:33
-Y: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His Messenger, and strive with might and main for mischief through the land is: execution, or crucifixion, or the cutting off of hands and feet from opposite sides, or exile from the land: that is their disgrace in this world, and a heavy punishment is theirs in the Hereafter"
-P: "The only reward of those who make war upon Allah and His messenger and strive after corruption in the land will be that they will be killed or crucified, or have their hands and feet on alternate sides cut off, or will be expelled out of the land. Such will be their degradation in the world, and in the Hereafter theirs will be an awful doom"
-S: "The punishment of those who wage war against Allah and His messenger and strive to make mischief in the land is only this, that they should be murdered or crucified or their hands and their feet should be cut off on opposite sides or they should be imprisoned; this shall be as a disgrace for them in this world, and in the hereafter they shall have a grievous chastisement"
'Social order' was very important to Mohammed, wasn't it?
'Social order' was also very important to the Catholic church, wasn't it?
Inquisition anyone?
Posted by: Odonata | July 25, 2008 12:20 AM
The Overton window definitely moved with this post! Doing the unthinkable and criticizing the Eucharist has clearly made a number of people uncomfortable - major cognitive dissonance. The fact that we can openly discuss and critically think about the effects of irrational attachment to symbols here is very positive. Thanks, PZ.
Posted by: Bubba Sixpack | July 25, 2008 12:21 AM
I bet Mr. Donohue pictures his own face gracing the cracker you nailed, PZ.
Posted by: TG | July 25, 2008 12:22 AM
"Weird. Is this TG also a 911 truther?
There's nothing remarkable about getting a communion wafer and tossing it in the trash." - PZ Myers
There is nothing remarkable about making an insufficiently documented claim and expecting others to believe it based on the claimer's presumed authority. It happens all the time in non-science circles. You have presented no concrete, objective evidence that you did what you said you did. That's how hoaxes and magic acts work.
At any rate, you do seem to be in something of a pickle. For, if you were to produce concrete evidence that you did pierce a consecrated host with a rusty nail and throw it in the trash, eventually you probably will be fired. Wouldn't count on the Catholic League giving up or U Minn regents and admin countenancing any suggestion that they approve of your actions. You basically have left them no choice.
On the other hand, if you happen to produce evidence that you did not do what you claimed and it was all a fraud, then your credibility as a servant of truth, which every good scientist is, will be destroyed by your own hand. That has serious, far-reaching professional consequences as well.
It seems to me that in either scenario, what you said you did to merely "a cracker" you, in fact, have done to yourself.
A helluva a price to pay for a stupid stunt, but that's exactly how it works with these kinds of things in the grown up world. Or didn't you know?
Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist | July 25, 2008 12:24 AM
*to the background sounds of "All Along the Watchtower"*
Whew, this has been a wild ride. Apparently the Catholics have headed for bed whereas the godless are still about. Me, I'm done in too. (Articulett, if you're still up, will you join me? I especially loved post 1680.) By the time I hit the post button, will God grant me #2000?
Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 12:25 AM
#1831, you are not living by the Golden Rule when you do something that shows so much hate. The Golden Rule is based on love of neighbor, not hate of neighbor. What this guy did is in no way an application of the Golden Rule. It is nothing but hate being purposely put on display.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 25, 2008 12:25 AM
TG: Do you expect to get a video feed of everything that happened to the cracker from Sunday mass to Wednesday trash? With no breaks or edits? It's not going to happen. So you're just wanking.
Posted by: Joe | July 25, 2008 12:26 AM
To be clear, your response to the Litany of examples of hatred you claim on behalf of Catholicism is to...
Ridicule, disparage, insult, and in the end take the most sacred element of someone else's faith and make a complete mockery of it and publicly desecrate it?
If this is somehow a claim of reason and moral high ground, you have failed miserably, whether your reader and audience is Catholic or atheist, if the reader is being intellectually honest.
All I see is an attention-seeking, cold-hearted, reactionary who is to be pitied. And, yes, despite the fact that I expect you to laugh at the suggestion, I will, in fact, pray for you.
Posted by: Barry Trask | July 25, 2008 12:26 AM
My goodness, goodness gracious....
I have been assured by Christians of every sort, every which way, coming and going, rightsideup and upsidedown, that nobody REALLY believes the Eucharist to be the ACTUAL body of Christ. Everybody tells me that no matter what the catechism says, Catholics aren't stupid or superstitious enough to believe any such thing.
I will bookmark this discussion...next time someone tells me that, he can come here and argue with the Trolls In Christ about the proper doctrine...
Barry
Posted by: Neural T | July 25, 2008 12:26 AM
Eucharist + Koran + God Delusion + coffee + banana = CRAZY DELICIOUS!
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 25, 2008 12:27 AM
Fake Fr. J,
It's obvious you didn't read my post about Atheists not having an Atheist club and how I, (or any Atheist), is no more linked to any other Atheists as I, (or any green eyed person), is linked to any other green eyed person. This included despots from days long gone.
I have the feeling you aren't reading anything other than you're own drivel.
It doesn't matter whether Hitler was an Atheist. Let's pretend he was. So what? Since Atheists are all individuals with no code of Atheist Ethics, no club, no philosophy, what the fucking hell would Hitler have to do with me or any other Atheist?
Nothing what-so-ever.
The church on the other hand, is an entity you have agreed to follow and you abide by it's laws, rules, and customs. Which means when they do evil things, you are partially responsible.
If I were to join a cult of green-eyed, brown-headed *whatevers* and they had a policy of abusing and killing people, I would be responsible for my participation and support of those horrors.
Will you ever be able to grasp this? it is so incredibly simple but you stubbornly refuse to think rationally.
You scare me, seriously. Luckily I am a pro-gun advocate, so I would not panic if you showed up on my doorstep.
Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist | July 25, 2008 12:27 AM
Cunt! You don't deserve to exist if you can't even grant an internetz request! Impotent tosser.
Posted by: BobC | July 25, 2008 12:27 AM
A hundred years from now some biologist will have a blog just like this one, with a Random Quote just like PZ has. For sure this will be one of the famous random quotes:
Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity's knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind. -- PZ Myers July 24, 2008
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 25, 2008 12:27 AM
Poor, delusional TG.
(You might want to look up "tenure", btw.)
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 12:28 AM
Elijah, #1828, wrote:
No, Elijah, I'm sure no-one's ever found the New Testament ambiguous. Otherwise there'd be just one church and not some ridiculous number of christian sects with their own interpretations.
Why do I keep hearing the number 38 000?
Oh, and I've prepared a kilt, bagpipe, sporran, and haggis for you if you're the sort who might choose to climb Ben Nevis at Hogmanay....
Posted by: Kel | July 25, 2008 12:29 AM
That could very well be correct, but I feel the previous line about the "eye for an eye" puts it into perspective, and it seems like not reacting to provocation sounds the best interpretation. It says similar in Luke as well "But I tell you who hear me: Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you, bless those who curse you, pray for those who mistreat you. If someone strikes you on one cheek, turn to him the other also." (6:27-29)Silent prayer seems to be the answer to What Would Jesus Do? Dropping down to a game of revenge is pretty much the antithesis of the Jesus message.
Though I'm just a heathen so what would I know? :P
Posted by: black wolf | July 25, 2008 12:29 AM
bob smith,
"Why? Because some kid disturbed a Catholic ritual - a Mass - and took a Host to piss off the Catholics at that Mass. So the professor went on a 'holy' crusade to also desecrate a Host to show his support of the offending student who caused a scene at the Mass."
You have been here for a while, and all accounts of what happened at that church are freely available. In assuming you have read those accounts, I am calling you a liar now.
The Catholic student who didn't do what they expected him to do in not immediately consuming the wafer was physically assaulted and threatened, then decided to take the wafer with him, because the attacks on his person pissed him off, not the other way around as you deceptively try to assert. Then he was further threatened, and the people whose sheep you are tried and are still trying to get him expelled from his university. The student didn't cause a scene, he merely didn't strictly follow the ritual. He was attacked before anyone even attempted to explain why his behavior was wrong.
So tell us, where exactly did Jesus tell people that lying was ok? If he didn't, where did you get that idea from? If this thread is any indication, it seems to be common Catholic practice.
Posted by: Andy D | July 25, 2008 12:30 AM
Digg digg digg! (as if this needs more publicity... oh wait, it does!)
http://digg.com/educational/Atheist_Professor_Makes_Good_on_Promise_to_Desecrate_Host
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 25, 2008 12:30 AM
melior @ # 1747, quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia: According to the best founded opinions not only the substance of Christ's Body, but by His own wise arrangement, its corporeal quantity, i.e. its full size, with its complete organization of integral members and limbs, is present within the diminutive limits of the Host and in each portion thereof.
Ah, now I get it! Jesus is Ray Palmer, who becomes the size- and weight-changing superhero The Atom in DC Comics!
Oh, how much longer until the Justice League movie comes out?
Posted by: Bible Belt Atheist (aka..Gary) | July 25, 2008 12:30 AM
Bravo Mr.Myers!
Though Nabisco might be after you next.....
Posted by: MB | July 25, 2008 12:31 AM
This thread isn't closed yet?
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 12:34 AM
What a dick.
If people want to believe their crackers are divine, and their belief isn't harming anybody, then who gives a fuck?
(Oh yeah, bigoted PZ and his band of irrational, uncritical, fascist, atheistic thought-police do.)
Posted by: TG | July 25, 2008 12:34 AM
"TG: Do you expect to get a video feed of everything that happened to the cracker from Sunday mass to Wednesday trash? With no breaks or edits? It's not going to happen. So you're just wanking."
As I wrote above, it doesn't matter much now. PZ sealed his fate when he posted his picture today.
But, a well-documented chain-of-custody might be something in the way of evidence. The protocol for that is well established among real scientists, who by the way never link to a YouTube video to say "I got my materials here." LMAO.
Posted by: Neural T | July 25, 2008 12:37 AM
Don't start a new Digg. There's already one with 36 Diggs. Vote on that one. If we can get it up to 150 we can probably make the front page.
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Pharyngula_The_Great_Desecration
Posted by: spinetingler | July 25, 2008 12:37 AM
PZ FTW!
Posted by: TG | July 25, 2008 12:37 AM
"Poor, delusional TG.
(You might want to look up "tenure", btw.)"
You might want to look up Dismissal for Cause".
Posted by: RyGuy | July 25, 2008 12:38 AM
Luke 23:34
Posted by: anthropic | July 25, 2008 12:38 AM
TG: Logician wannabe :-)
You're not "LMAO". I am.
Posted by: Foster Foskin | July 25, 2008 12:38 AM
Thank you Professor Myers for exposing the hypocrites for what they are. How anyone can believe the bullshit these religious bigots spew is beyond belief...unfortunately they do believe it. And unfortunately they continue to spread their blight on humanity.
It IS just a cracker. Not even a very tasty one either. As an ex-catholic I can tell you the wine is often better. No wonder so many priests are alcoholics! Then they get drunk and molest kids. Nice religion chaps! The leader of their church wears dresses and calls himself Father. Ya gotta wonder! There are so many inconsistencies it's hard to know where to start.
Keep it up Professor!
Posted by: Odonata | July 25, 2008 12:38 AM
From Wikipedia -
"In psychology, cognitive dissonance is an uncomfortable feeling or stress caused by holding two contradictory ideas simultaneously. The theory of cognitive dissonance proposes that people have a fundamental cognitive drive to reduce this dissonance by modifying an existing belief, or rejecting one of the contradictory ideas."
"Often one of the ideas is a fundamental element of ego, like "I am a good person" or "I made the right decision." This can result in rationalization when a person is presented with evidence of a bad choice, or in other cases. Prevention of cognitive dissonance may also contribute to confirmation bias or denial of discomforting evidence. If not corrected, this can lead to further bad choices for the sake of consistency, rather than learning from mistakes."
Does this look familiar with what we are seeing in some of the comments?
Posted by: Andrew | July 25, 2008 12:38 AM
Religion: The root of MOST evil.....fuck the fucking cracker!
Posted by: commissarjs | July 25, 2008 12:39 AM
CW 1855
Everyone who believed that yesterday is still able to believe that today. Just like people who believe that cows are sacred animals is freely able to believe that regardless of the amount of beef you eat. Or that Santa Clause brings you toys every Christmas despite what the mean kid told you in 2nd grade.
Posted by: Kel | July 25, 2008 12:40 AM
If you actually recall the start of this saga, it came about because that belief led to a student being assaulted by members of the church and death threats from catholics world wide...Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 12:40 AM
Barry Trask, #1842
It does seem that it's a very small proportion of believers who are making a fuss out of this.
As I've asked before, if it's such a monstrous attack on catholic beliefs, why hasn't the pope stepped up to reassure the faithful in their time of need? No-one's managed to give a proper answer.
We really are dealing with some bonafide Scary Loons for Jesus™ here.
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 25, 2008 12:40 AM
Actually.... NO. The only person who thinks PZ is in any sort of pickle is you as seen by your incessant, pointless, paranoid ranting and squawking.
Really, man. I feel pretty fucking sorry for you.
If this isn't enough proof for you, well, I'm sorry asshole, but you're gonna lose some sleep apparently.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 25, 2008 12:42 AM
TG: So basically you're saying that you don't believe he really did it, but you think he should be fired anyway.
Wanker.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 12:42 AM
Good to see that there are saner and more rational folks out there, whether they're religious or not, who can find common ground and call PZ out for what he really is: a senseless bigot.
PZ. You fail.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 25, 2008 12:43 AM
melior @ # 1747, quoting the Catholic Encyclopedia: According to the best founded opinions not only the substance of Christ's Body, but by His own wise arrangement, its corporeal quantity, i.e. its full size, with its complete organization of integral members and limbs, is present within the diminutive limits of the Host and in each portion thereof.
Ah, now I get it! Jesus is Ray Palmer, who becomes the size- and weight-changing superhero The Atom in DC Comics!
Oh, how much longer until the Justice League movie comes out?
Posted by: Duke | July 25, 2008 12:43 AM
Way to go, PZ! This is a rare post for me to your site, but I read it all the time.
I applaud your excellent writing, your propensity for challenging some of the most harmful, mindless inanity that surrounds us, and respect you tremendously for it.
Please keep it up.
Posted by: Jennie | July 25, 2008 12:43 AM
I love the term wanker!!! I wish it would catch on here in the U.S. Kudos Rey Fox!
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 12:44 AM
Is it really that spectacular?
But their beliefs are harming people, millions of people.
You flatter us, we don't really have that kind of power. The statement would be better applied to the catholics.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 25, 2008 12:44 AM
"But, a well-documented chain-of-custody might be something in the way of evidence. The protocol for that is well established among real scientists, who by the way never link to a YouTube video to say "I got my materials here." LMAO."
Quick, PZ, show some receipts. And video of you with the cracker in a test tube, holding it up to the light and squinting at it. In your best lab coat. The Real Scientists are watching.
Posted by: Steven Mading | July 25, 2008 12:45 AM
The decision to also include The God Delusion among the desecrated words was brilliant. Because Richard Dawkins is not going to be a whiny "respect my work or die" putz about it, so it will make a nice contrast to compare against. "I descrated both, but look how only one causes an irrational outrage - consider what that means."
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 25, 2008 12:46 AM
#1837 Posted by: TG | July 25, 2008 12:22 AM
While that might be a perfectly valid criticism, this was not a scientific endevour (at least as far as I know). So the research documentation effort would be overkill. However, since the host is a just a bit of bread, it really didn't require extreme efforts to accomplish, and really doesn't need extreme evidence. But that won't satisfy you. Tough. PZ did what he said he would and presented reasonable evidence to that effect.
Now, whether it was truly an officially consecrated host or not, we might not ever be confident of. Certainly the chain of evidence would never hold up in a court of law. I'm going to give the donor the benefit of doubt on this.
I've be party to a number of conversations with former and current Catholics who have smuggled a host out. Their claim does not seem unreasonable, nor do they have any reason to make a false claim regarding this. It seems a number of Catholics don't know this is a mortal sin.
Anyway, given the level of the claim, the evidence is sufficient for provisional acceptance and I'm not going to worry about it beyond tonight.
JBS
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 25, 2008 12:47 AM
So, you didn't read the post, huh?
And you call us "uncritical." You've got some nerve little fella.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 25, 2008 12:47 AM
Oops - sorry for the double post.
Time to go say some Hail PZs...
Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 12:47 AM
#1833, you say "and making life miserable for some guy just because he didn't worship it the way he was supposed to".
This is not accurate. The kid in Florida purposely went to a Catholic Mass to rant against the Catholics, and to take a Host, to piss off the Catholics. He didn't go to their Mass to "worship" - he went to espouse hate, and to provoke.
So the analogy of a white guy who hates blacks going into an NAACP meeting and ranting against blacks, and then being told to leave, fits the situation here.
The kid, and now this professor, are ATTACKING the Catholics -- they are interfering with them. The Catholics were minding their own business and doing their thing and this kid started causing a ruckus and took a Host. And this professor, in support of the kid, did this.
Those are the facts. The kid and this professor have gone on the attack against something they disagree with, and hate. They are the ones who are sticking fingers in the eyes of Catholics.
If the professor simply wrote in this blog and elsewhere about how Catholics are wrong, stupid, idiots, etc. then that would be one thing.
But to go on the attack and procure something Catholics deem as sacred and then purposely declare to the world that he is going to 'abuse' it and also declare he is going to show pictures of his abusing it to the world -- that is hate. That is aggressive hate. That is not the Golden Rule.
Again, these are the facts of this case, and they are indisputable. The professor is aggressively attacking Catholics by willfully, purposefully, publicly desecrating something he knows they hold as sacred.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 12:48 AM
TG,
Did PZ use any university resources to do this? Are there any UM logos anywhere? Did he do this during class? Is he making viewing the picture a compulsory aspect of passing any of the courses he teaches?
You're an idiot. UM are going to do no more to him than what Oxford did to Dawkins after he published The God Delusion and toured the world insulting far more believers than a tiny minority of one sect of one religion.
Why do i say tiny minority? Because if it affected the majority of catholics then the pope would have stood up to reassure the faithful in their time of need. He hasn't; ergo: no big deal for catholics with half a brain.
Posted by: James O'Connor | July 25, 2008 12:48 AM
Long live free thought.
Thank You Dr. Myers.
Posted by: TG | July 25, 2008 12:49 AM
"The only person who thinks PZ is in any sort of pickle is you as seen by your incessant, pointless, paranoid ranting and squawking."
We shall see what happens. Minnesota ranks 13th among the 50 states in Catholic population by pure numbers and percentage-wise is 21.5%. That's a heck of a lot potential angry voters and taxpayers, not to mention lost enrollment at PZ's home campus.
Posted by: akshelby | July 25, 2008 12:50 AM
Sandy at #816 said, "Thanks for giving us your take on the Year 1215. Did you know we're now in the year 2008?"
Perhaps you should apply that bit of logic to your beliefs in a magical cracker? It was semi-okay to believe in magic in 1215. It's 2008 and we know a heck of a lot more about the inner workings of the universe.
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 25, 2008 12:50 AM
#1839 Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 12:25 AM
Well, Bob, if you saw a deaf person about to walk off a cliff, would you stand there and watch, or bodily drag them away from it? We're trying to drag you away from that cliff, but you can't hear us yelling about it, so we've resorted to sometime you will notice.
JBS
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | July 25, 2008 12:51 AM
bob smith @ # 1880: The kid in Florida purposely went to a Catholic Mass to rant against the Catholics, and to take a Host, to piss off the Catholics.
Hey bob, you're as fact-challenged as your uncle Joseph.
Posted by: Kel | July 25, 2008 12:53 AM
ATTN: Bob Smith
It's a cracker. Get over it.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 12:53 AM
I'll be willing to bet that absolutely nothing happens to PZ.
Posted by: Dave | July 25, 2008 12:53 AM
The little worker bees are busy aren't they?
Posted by: Jams | July 25, 2008 12:53 AM
Great post. But because I'm an ass... a question.
"Nothing must be held sacred." - PZ Myers
What about truth?
Posted by: josh.e.m. | July 25, 2008 12:53 AM
It seems respect for anyone or anything is a hard thing to come by nowadays, from the religous, AND the anti-religous. So you don't believe, okay whatever, do you really have to pull a stunt like this? Seems like a petty cry for attention... easy to understand though, since shock value is quite the rage these days. Still, as a Catholic convert I would just like to say that I respect anyone with a different opinion, I would just ask the same respect for something that we hold sacred.
Posted by: TG | July 25, 2008 12:54 AM
"TG,
Did PZ use any university resources to do this? Are there any UM logos anywhere? Did he do this during class? Is he making viewing the picture a compulsory aspect of passing any of the courses he teaches?
You're an idiot. UM are going to do no more to him than what Oxford did to Dawkins after he published The God Delusion and toured the world insulting far more believers than a tiny minority of one sect of one religion.
Why do i say tiny minority? Because if it affected the majority of catholics then the pope would have stood up to reassure the faithful in their time of need. He hasn't; ergo: no big deal for catholics with half a brain. "
Obviously, you don't know how these things work. Wait and see what PZ has brought down on himself. Your juvenile arguments mean nothing in the world of real adults playing for keeps. Nor will his, probably, at the end of the day.
Posted by: Malcolm | July 25, 2008 12:55 AM
Christophe Thill #776,
Actually, before the war, in order to join the SS, who were originally Hitler's bodyguard, you had to prove that you were a catholic in good standing in the church. You also had to be blond and over 6 feet tall.
Posted by: Dahan | July 25, 2008 12:55 AM
838,
"No one is forcing you to believe in God, to believe in the Eucharist."
But they're doing their best. Are you unaware of how much atheists are hated and kept out of positions of influence by your church?
Kinda like saying "Sure, no one is forcing you to be heterosexual, but if you don't act like it, you won't ever make a living and your life will be in danger."
You are a complete, fucking idiot. No, there is no gun put to my head to believe in god. At least there hasn't been yet. But it's happened plenty in the past. Atheists who do the same? No, not really. Although there have been some horrible, terrible atheistic sociopaths, very few of them killed in the name of atheism, the belief that there is no god. How many have been killed because of a belief in a specific god? You do the body count.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 12:55 AM
"If you actually recall the start of this saga, it came about because that belief led to a student being assaulted by members of the church and death threats from catholics world wide..."
Stupid. Since when does a tiny fraction of people who identify themselves as catholics equate to the whole fucking religion? There are assholes in every group, genius. Does that mean we should act like PZ, lazily blame the whole religion, and become pompous bigots?
Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 12:55 AM
And if he thinks by 'desecrating' equally Catholicism, Islam, and Atheism, he is safe from being accused of attacking Catholics in a hateful, disrespectful, discriminatory manner, his prior posts where he announced his intentions, and where he announced he added the Koran and others because Catholics said he wouldn't dare do it to the Koran, convict him of discriminating against Catholics, as does his diatribe at the head of this blog which addresses Catholics and their Eucharist. Note that Muslims and the atheists are not discussed by him in the introduction of this blog - only the Catholics and their Eucharist are addressed.
His intentions are clear -- he is specifically attacking and mocking only Catholics, for their beliefs concerning the Host.
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 12:57 AM
Back in the days of Usenet, we had good bunk-house lawyers.
You, OTOH, are an idiot. You've jumped to conclusions and invented crimes that don't exist.
Posted by: Big City | July 25, 2008 1:00 AM
Guys, can you please stop saying that the kid was assaulted by the people in church?
According to every report I've heard, some lady grabbed his wrist and tried to pry his hand open. That's not really assault unless you're a little kid or something. It's stupid, it's a dick move, but it's not like he was beaten up. He was accosted, more than assaulted. I'm not trying to pick a fight or anything, it just makes us seem like we're trying to blow it out of proportion and take as much advantage as possible. That's the kind of thing that they would do.
Also, for the Christians: How many different ways can you say "I have faith and so should you!"? Goddammit, people, do you seriously think that we don't believe in gods just to piss you off? If it's so true, why the hell can't you give us a good reason to believe it? And why the hell are there other religions? What special insight do you have? (Please don't say it's the warm fuzzies you get in your heart when you see Jesus nailed to the cross.)
Posted by: Kel | July 25, 2008 1:00 AM
Since when did I say that people who act like assholes are the "whole fucking religion"? The comment was that the belief doesn't hurt anyone, yet the whole incident started because someone was physically assaulted and had their life threatened over that belief. Where does that say that every catholic is an arsehole? Just inferring meaning to maintain your indignity. Pathetic.Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 1:00 AM
Yeah, so? Are you saying that your beliefs concerning the cracker are above criticism? Where do you get off welding this kind of privilege?
Posted by: jimmiraybob | July 25, 2008 1:00 AM
...sick world of secular humanists.
Nice of him to give a special shout out to the ilk and minions.
Posted by: craig | July 25, 2008 1:02 AM
"His intentions are clear -- he is specifically attacking and mocking only Catholics, for their beliefs concerning the Host. "
Why do you people ignore all the posts where he's mocked the beliefs of Muslims - of Mormons, of Jehovah's Witnesses, of UFO fanatics, of Astrologers... etc?
You are not that special, but you act like the beliefs of Catholics are the only ones ever criticized here.
Posted by: DingoDave | July 25, 2008 1:03 AM
"The Golden Rule is based on love of neighbor, not hate of neighbor. What this guy did is in no way an application of the Golden Rule. It is nothing but hate being purposely put on display." - Posted by: bob smith
Would that be 'Normal Bob Smith'?
If you really want to see some serious 'blaspheming', then click on the links below.
(DISCLAIMER - Neither PZ Myers, nor the University of Minnessota, nor DingoDave deem themselves to be in any way responsible for any adverse reactions whatsoever which Christian fanatics might experience after clicking on any of the following links)
Click and Enjoy. : D
http://www.jesusdressup.com/
http://www.muhammaddressup.com/
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/flash_jesus/flash_jesus.htm
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/revenge/
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 1:03 AM
"And you call us "uncritical." You've got some nerve little fella."
Shut the fuck up. Yes, you're uncritical. Congrats for letting an irrational bigot like PZ do your thinking for you.
Now run along and blindly repeat the mantra as you've been trained: "It's just a cracker." "It's just a cracker."
Nevermind all those humans who value different things for different reasons, be they religious or just plain sentimental.
May the pseudo-skeptical grandstanding continue...
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 1:05 AM
Bob Smith
...he is specifically
attacking andmockingonlyCatholics, for a rabid minority of their cult members wanting special privilege for their beliefs concerning the Host above the beliefs of others.Fixed it for ya.
TG - if it's such a big attack on all Catholics, where's the Pope reassuring the faithful?
Posted by: Joe | July 25, 2008 1:06 AM
#1833: that is just not an honest assessment. Nobody is forced to go to a Catholic church and worship the Eucharist. The person in question attended Mass at a Catholic Church voluntarily and then did something sacreligious in nature, which evoked a reaction from someone present - proper or improper - to protect the host. I understand you find it all silly, but it doesn't matter. It's not as if someone brought it to him and demanded that he worship it.
And this is why the post above which is so lauded by you like-minded folks is so unfortunate, and you are so hate-filled towards the Catholic Church and/or beliefs that you cannot see it for what it is. There is no point in it other than to harm the emotions of others. Oh, I suppose there is the purpose of reveling en masse in the joyous hatred you all share, but that is infantile at the same time that enlightenment and superb intelligence is claimed. It is not only irony in action, it is so clearly evident to most, and yet completely missed by the cheering section who can see nothing else but some inane vindication. And vindication how? No Catholic who believes in the Real Presence claims that the Host will bleed if stabbed with a nail. So, the reality is nothing has been proved or disproved, other than the bigotry and intolerance of a great number of people.
One post admonished the lack of Christian forgiveness on the comments. Forgiveness is not an easy thing. But, it is a valid point. Forgiveness can be difficult to give, particularly when high emotions are involved, but will it be accepted? Acceptance of forgiveness may be even more difficult, because it requires the person to acknowledge that an act was performed for which forgiveness is required. I will forgive any and all for their actions and comments here that demonstrated sacrelige, hate and/or bigotry. It rings hollow if it is not accepted. I leave that to the receiver of that forgiveness.
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 1:09 AM
That's pure projection. As a previous commenter said, when you godlusters proclaim the evils of nonbelief it's "witnessing" or "evangelizing". When PZ spreads the light of commonsense you call it "hate".
Just think of him as Spreading the Good News of Reason to save you from the horrors of Eternal Mockery.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 1:09 AM
Wow- up to 1179 posts. With many repeats. 2000 Atheist /
1 billion Catholics not even counting Christians and other religions. Man, you guys have a lot of campaigning to do if you want PZ to publish a book. And a book about what? you losers and your posts. Ha,ha,ha,ha! better start a kitty folks, he's going to need money for heat this winter. Think about it- no matter who gets involved, this country is a whore for the almighty dollar. Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance he'll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God than those who don't. How is he going to keep his classes filled? The college is going to pay this guy to teach a handful of students. Even if he doesn't get canned for this, he'll be gone by next summer- Pure economics folks-
Posted by: Axolotl | July 25, 2008 1:09 AM
The banana was a nice touch! Though Roy Comfort will probably interpret that as a dig at him (intended or not), and he'll be pissed off at you too!!
Your legendary status with the infidels in now assured. Stay safe my friend ...
Axolotl
Posted by: Yvette | July 25, 2008 1:09 AM
If you REALLY wanted to piss them off, you should have fed the cracker to some poor hungry child. They would call you a communist and Satanist and lock you up.
I'm disappointed!
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 25, 2008 1:09 AM
THE DARK AGES WERE ONCE SOMEONE'S TODAY. YOUR TODAY WILL BE SOMEONE ELSE'S DARK AGES.
Posted by: Chris | July 25, 2008 1:09 AM
Thanks for a great, eloquent post. PZ- you're my hero!
Posted by: Geoff | July 25, 2008 1:10 AM
We all have our cusses to bear.
Posted by: Zeke | July 25, 2008 1:10 AM
If you could somehow fuse Poe's law and Godwin's law, you might have the perfect method to describe this thread.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 1:11 AM
Repeating "irrational bigot" isn't exactly helping your case. Exactly where was PZ irrational? And do you understand what "bigot" means?
Irony alert...
And it is just a cracker, albeit one that you people think is the summoned flesh of christ, which you then proceed to devour.
You've just missed the entire point of the exercise. Actually *read* the posts, and get a clue.
Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 1:11 AM
#1886 he was mad that student monies were going to religion, and he wasn't even Catholic, from what I read. He took a Host (he shouldn't have gone up for Communion if he wasn't Catholic) and did not consume it but brought it back to the pew and was accosted by concerned Catholics. If this is not the gist of what happened, then what are the facts?
(btw, Catholics know and it is a fact that practicing satanists often try to obtain a Host to abuse Jesus in their satanic rituals. And the fact that devil worshipers attack only the Catholic Mass and the Host has led to conversions of non-Catholics, since even satan knows the Host is Jesus.
But to my point - Catholics, when seeing someone take a Host and not consume it, suspect satanism might be involved, or at least atheism, so of course they get defensive and protective of it since to them it is very sacred.
If someone walks up to you and your mother on your porch and spits in your mother's face [I assume you hold your mother, or held her if she is passed away, in respect], how do you react? No doubt the same as the Catholics at the Mass reacted toward that kid who took the Host - they were angry and offended that he would come into their Mass and take a Host. It does not matter that you do not hold the Host in respect, they, the Catholics do, and they were in their element, their Mass, doing their rituals and the kid should not even be there if he doesn't believe in any of it. He provoked.)
Posted by: Zaphod | July 25, 2008 1:12 AM
CW said:
> Shut the fuck up. Yes, you're uncritical. Congrats for
> letting an irrational bigot like PZ do your thinking for
> you.
You know what, CW? The initial posting on the earlier cracker incident might have been ever so slightly offensive and over the top, but **everything** that has happened since can and should be laid squarely at the doors of the asshats who overreacted to Professor Myers' ever so slightly offensive initial post.
Posted by: DingoDave | July 25, 2008 1:13 AM
#1392 - "Am I the only one that got the Monty Python spanish inquisition skit reference?"
No. I had a chuckle over it as well. It'll probably be lost on most Catholics though.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 1:14 AM
"Since when did I say that people who act like assholes are the "whole fucking religion"? The comment was that the belief doesn't hurt anyone, yet the whole incident started because someone was physically assaulted and had their life threatened over that belief. Where does that say that every catholic is an arsehole? Just inferring meaning to maintain your indignity. Pathetic."
So someone's hand being grabbed by a senior citizen is now "physical assault". Great logic there.
But that's not the point anyway. What follows from the fact that a small fraction of catholics got mad at a kid for stealing a cracker? That we should act like bigots and assclowns to the whole entire religion and follow PZ's example? Again, great logic there.
Learn to distinguish between lunatics and the actual groups they claim to represent. Every group has them, religious or not. (With PZ taking the cake for atheism.) It doesn't follow that we should bash an entire group of sincere people who don't do us any harm based on the actions of a small subset of jerks within the group. Stop being stupid.
Posted by: King of Ferrets | July 25, 2008 1:14 AM
Hurry up with the comments people; we need to hit 2k before PZ closes the thread!
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 1:14 AM
Wow- up to 2000 posts. With many repeats. 1900 Atheist /
1 billion Catholics not even counting Christians and other religions. Man, you guys have a lot of campaigning to do if you want PZ to publish a book. And a book about what? you losers and your posts. Ha,ha,ha,ha! better start a kitty folks, he's going to need money for heat this winter. Think about it- no matter who gets involved, this country is a whore for the almighty dollar. Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance he'll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God than those who don't. How is he going to keep his classes filled? The college is going to pay this guy to teach a handful of students. Even if he doesn't get canned for this, he'll be gone by next summer- Pure economics folks-
look at the the busy little worker bees, while the queen sleeps
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 1:15 AM
He's lying again.
Just over 4% for Catholic Priests, right around 2.5% for the general population.
He also lies about charities. Non-Secular charities do far more work for the poor and "last resort" people. Religious charities tend to be more focused on members of their faith.
Actually, he pretty much lies about everything.
Posted by: pkiwi | July 25, 2008 1:15 AM
That catholic encyclopedia (reference way back up the post!!!) was hilarious thanks. I never realized quite what crazy thinking went on what seemed to be a fairly lame ritual of the cracker (well if you overlooked the whole mumbo-jumbo of playing with a taboo of cannibalisation to show what powerful magick da catholic is). So this is lots of little entire Jesus's being consumed not just a little bit of flesh. And here was I worried about Jesus weight loss - but no omnipotence extends to being present at every Eucharist and every piece of it. Wow. You can fit that much bullsh*t into a cracker? A cracked? A cracker????
Posted by: llewelly | July 25, 2008 1:16 AM
PZ, you were a fool to not close this thread before going to bed. Before you wake up it may well exceed 3000 posts - and that's not even counting the sane, reasoned comments.
Posted by: AndrewG | July 25, 2008 1:16 AM
Sweet mother of Jesus, if my calculations are correct this thread is averaging nearly 3 posts per minute for 11 hours non stop, or 1 post every 20 seconds!
Posted by: Jeremy | July 25, 2008 1:17 AM
I'm still waiting for a beef-eating Catholic to explain to me how THEY'RE not being a hateful bigot for desecrating the Sacred Hindu Cow.
Posted by: jc# | July 25, 2008 1:17 AM
You made my day Dr. Myers; thank you.
Posted by: Zaphod | July 25, 2008 1:17 AM
dave said:
> ...Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance
> he'll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God
> than those who don't. How is he going to keep his classes
> filled?...
Yo, dave, except for the Jesuits (none of whom are posting on this thread) your co-religionists aren't really known for a love of science and, by and large, wouldn't qualify to study with Professor Myers in any case. There may be many reasons not to expel you, that you will be missed in Professor Myers' classes is not among them.
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 1:17 AM
Bed-time for me. Arguing with Catholic Trolls and other wackaloons that should be institutionalized is not productive.
Posted by: commissarjs | July 25, 2008 1:18 AM
(btw, Catholics know and it is a fact that practicing satanists often try to obtain a Host to abuse Jesus in their satanic rituals. And the fact that devil worshipers attack only the Catholic Mass and the Host has led to conversions of non-Catholics, since even satan knows the Host is Jesus.
BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA
Sir, please stop. There are people sleeping in the building in which I live. My loud guffaws are going to wake them.
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 25, 2008 1:19 AM
Do yourself a favor and try not to be such a noisy little drama queen. You'll save a lot of energy by throwing fewer tantrums.
Anyway, because I see a belief in the supernatural, I am somehow now letting PZ do my thinking for me? Is that what you're saying?
You really are quite rock-stupid, and you shouldn't throw around words like "uncritical" or "bigot" when you have no fucking clue what they mean.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 1:20 AM
Zaphod- watch and learn grasshopper, watch and learn.
Posted by: CatholicsArePedophiles | July 25, 2008 1:20 AM
Very well done Dr.Myers, I was hoping you would do something like that. I also thought it was in good taste that "The god Delusion" was in there also because of the people who say that atheist worship Richard Dawkins. Although..if I had to chose a religion..that one does sound pretty cool=)
Posted by: KevinB | July 25, 2008 1:20 AM
BRAVO!
This whole indecent, which I am certain isn't over, has made me nothing but happy. And this ending to the part one (it was so good) leaves be wanting part two... I just got back from checking out the Catholic Leagues posts about this. I didn't see if PZ ever stated that his job was actually safe.
Good luck and such.
Posted by: Kel | July 25, 2008 1:21 AM
Wow, that was really terrible. Getting bumped off by something so meek must be insulting.
Posted by: Jeremy | July 25, 2008 1:23 AM
It's become apparent to me that fairy-tale-worshiping psychopaths don't know the definition of irony. That, or they don't bother to read anyone's posts but their own. That would definitely explain why they keep repeating the same empty bullshit despite being trounced...
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 1:23 AM
Joe, #1905:
The point is if the people at the church had reacted the what Webster Cook did in the same well-thought-out, rational way you have posted here today then we wouldn't be here writing about it.
But they didn't. It was if he'd crucified Jesus all over again - and many posters here have confirmed that, in their opinions at least, what he did is just as bad.
One thing has been proved: there are catholics whose attitudes are sickening by the standards of any honest, decent human being. We've been told that his not eating a wafer is as bad as (if not worse than) as kidnapping, rape and murder.
I don't see any of the atheists on this blog advocating torture or murder or beatings; no-one here has advertised Bill Donohue's home address - I can't say the same for the so-called adherents of the religion of the 'Prince of Peace'.
That is sickening, inhuman insanity, and it deserves to be broadcast to the world.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 1:24 AM
His job is long gone folks-
he won't make it to this time next summer
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 25, 2008 1:24 AM
It seems no one has the time to read the bazillion posts and most don't realize Dawkins has already posted his appproval. He thought the addition of his book was amusing. His comment is buried way up there someplace.
Posted by: -R | July 25, 2008 1:25 AM
Has anyone been disemvoweled yet (O___________O)?
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 1:25 AM
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 25, 2008 1:25 AM
Ooops... Gads this thread is killing me.
That should read: "Anyway, because I see a belief in the supernatural as a silly waste of time, I am somehow now letting PZ do my thinking for me?"
There. That should help with your ridiculous strawman, CW.
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 1:25 AM
#1905:
OK, now that you've made a complete ass of yourself by revealing you haven't even read this post by PZ you are so offended by, try clicking the link in it.
Go ahead, we'll still be here laughing at you when you get back.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 1:25 AM
Congrats to the "rational" chap above who assumed I must be catholic merely because I'm calling PZ out for being a bigot.
I know it's just a cracker. It's just a cow. It's just a rabbit's foot. It's just a paper with green ink on it with a portrait of a president and the number '100'. But if other people value these material objects, whether for religious reasons or not, then let them alone for fuck's sake. They're not harming you. A kid's hand was grabbed by an old lady and he was harassed by Bill fuckin Donahue. If it pisses you off, then take it up with the particular people within the group. Don't be a bigot and bash the whole goddamned religion, furthering the stereotype of atheists as knuckle-dragging assholes, and thereby marginalizing yourselves even more.
Stop being so uncritical and cheering for PZ without hesitation. Think for yourself.
Posted by: matthew | July 25, 2008 1:25 AM
Thank you PZ. We are surrounded by irrational and frightened people. I am so thankful that my wife and I are not ones who live by the fear that causes a belief in silly gods. We also don't believe in ghosts and santa clause. Imagine that! Religion is such a cancer. We wish we could live long enough to see it's demise. Alas, stupidity shall reign long after we are gone. Again, I say thank you.
Posted by: Hairhead | July 25, 2008 1:25 AM
Bob, once again you are sliding by the FACTS that after this offending person (sure, he did something which offended the beliefs of some of those in the church) left, he was threatened with physical harm, to the point of death, by you lovely religious people, and now those same people are trying to get him expelled. Wonderful examples of Christian love and tolerance. Not to mention proportionality. It is the Host, an inviolable manifestation of the Holy Spirit, an omnipotent and invulnerable being. No harm was done anyone. Jesus Christ himself was critical of Pharisees such as yourself, who made a great to-do of being devout and following ritual, while allowing actual physical pain and horrible injustice to exist all around them.
Disrespect is not hate. Repeat that to yourself. PZ does not hate Catholics. He thinks some of their beliefs are silly, and mocks them. That isn't hate.
Hate would be if he were to say that All Catholics Must Die; or All Catholics Must Be Kept from Public Office (things which Catholics and other Christians have said about atheists, and which is a basic fact in America today). Hate would be if he were to advocate burning down churches and cathedrals, particularly if Catholics were inside. He has done none of these things.
Hate is a big, powerful emotion; and it comes with lies, threats of violence, and a lack of self-awareness evidenced in hypocrisy in action, all of which you have shown in your posts.
You aren't a good Catholic, nor a good Christian, nor a good person. And I speak as someone who was brought up in the Church and knows the Bible backwards and forwards, and who has seen other variations of Christianity at work, helping the poor and destitute.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 1:27 AM
Congrats to the "rational" chap above who assumed I must be catholic merely because I'm calling PZ out for being a bigot.
I know it's just a cracker. It's just a cow. It's just a rabbit's foot. It's just a paper with green ink on it with a portrait of a president and the number '100'. But if other people value these material objects, whether for religious reasons or not, then let them alone for fuck's sake. They're not harming you. A kid's hand was grabbed by an old lady and he was harassed by Bill fuckin Donahue. If it pisses you off, then take it up with the particular people within the group. Don't be a bigot and bash the whole goddamned religion, furthering the stereotype of atheists as knuckle-dragging assholes, and thereby marginalizing yourselves even more.
Stop being so uncritical and cheering for PZ without hesitation. Think for yourself.
Posted by: Mary Maria Whitford | July 25, 2008 1:29 AM
I must admit it's nice to see Mr. Mayers stop persecuting Christians for a change and go after Catholics. It doesn't matter whether the idols you bow down to are of Mary and saints or of Darwin and monkeys, you're all still turning your back on Jesus and putting a big smile on Satan's face.
One thing the Catholics have right is that it isn't a cracker. IT'S A DEATH COOKIE! (See the following link - http://www.chick.com/reading/tracts/0074/0074_01.asp - to read a fair and balanced scholarly look into this subject.) I firmly believe that the Bible (the TRUE King James 1611 Bible) is the literal Word of God, and the Lord Jesus was literally talking about a metaphor! "This do in REMEMBRANCE of me!" He never said we are to be cannibals feasting on His sweet and glorious flesh or engorging ourselves on His juicy blood! NO!
Atheists are no better. If God wanted us to use "reason", "logic", or "science", He would have told us in the Bible instead of telling us exactly what to do and think! It takes more free will and brings more freedom to obey unquestioningly than to do whatever you want just because it feels good and doesn't hurt anyone else.
I will be praying for all of you.
McCain/Huckabee '08
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 25, 2008 1:31 AM
#1915 Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 1:11 AM
We obviously have different sources. The one I read said he was raised Catholic. BTW, I have, as a non-believer, accepted the bread and wine at Mass. Surely that's as bad as anything PZ did. Of course, I don't have it on video tape, so I have no proof.
This wasn't a Catholic ceremony, so I'm not sure just how blasphemous my act was.
Sounds like hearsay to me. Not very convincing at any rate. How is a bunch of others of questionable sanity believing in the power of your host supposed to impress me?
Just as atheists and Secular Humanists violently attack those that ... no wait, that doesn't happen. Surely proves your version of Christianity isn't harmless.
I don't have a clue. It sounds like Jesus recommended placing your face up for spit reception, though. Also, attacking, physically, a person is miles different from telling them their faith is insane.
But it's not the same, there are places where accepting a host and not immediately chowing on it is normal. Perhaps not for Catholics, but then, apparently, some Catholics don't hold the sacrament in the same extreme as you, either, or there wouldn't be so many tales of keeping the host as a souvenir.
That doesn't justify manhandling and death threats. And by your statement, fully half of the practicing Catholics should not attend Mass.
JBS
Posted by: Sandi | July 25, 2008 1:31 AM
"His intentions are clear -- he is specifically attacking and mocking only Catholics, for their beliefs concerning the Host."
Even if he was so fucking what?
Your religion preaches that I'm so horrible I deserve to be tortured forever you hypocrite.
Posted by: TG | July 25, 2008 1:31 AM
"TG - if it's such a big attack on all Catholics, where's the Pope reassuring the faithful?"
You really want me to go into it all?
The LORD himself prophesied that he would be handed over to evil men, as he was in Jerusalem. Before that happened, he gave himself at the last supper in the first Eucharist. "This is my body". "This is my blood". So that all who fed upon him would have life to the fullest.
If PZ desecrated the LORD's Eucharistic body, the LORD knew of it happening even back then, at the last supper, at the sacrifice on Calvary. He knew that PZ and people like him would do such things with his Eucharistic body before he established the Eucharist and gave himself to death.
So mad with love for humanity the LORD was, that these offenses against him did not deter him from offering life to all of the Father's children would would partake of it.
PZ is just the latest click on the desecration odometer, as you howling, self-absorbed madmen are. Well, not even that really. The hatred for the God of Love is as alive at this instant as it was when he was crucified.
Unnoticed by you atheistic experts on Catholicism is the very real irony that PZ and his co-conspirator, if all is as PZ says, have reenacted the acts of Caiaphas and Judas, just as surely as the sacrifice of Calvary is reenacted at the sacrifice of the Mass when the host is consecrated.
In my opinion, you guys are incredibly ignorant. Just monsters filled with hate towards a man who never did anything but love, purely, and towards his brothers and sisters, children of God. This makes you completely irrelevant in the grand scheme of things, even with publicity stunts and fawning words of praise for them.
Posted by: Erwin Blonk | July 25, 2008 1:32 AM
Let me recap 90% of the comments: we are right, they are wrong.
Posted by: Zaphod | July 25, 2008 1:32 AM
CW said:
> ...furthering the stereotype of atheists as knuckle-
> dragging assholes, and thereby marginalizing yourselves
> even more.
If atheists were knuckle dragging assholes, the god-pounders would be able to point to some flagrant example of it. For example, oh, I don't know, maybe posting Donohue's home address and the schools his children attend on a public message board...
Posted by: articulett | July 25, 2008 1:32 AM
I aspire to be like PZ... I don't let him do my thinking for me... but he is great at teaching people to think.
Religions teach the opposite of critical thought-- they teach the inane lie that you can know things through faith.
I hope CW isn't in a position where anyone is looking to him to do their thinking for them... he seems poorly equipped for the job and deeply in need of some deprogramming.
Thanks, PZ, for inoculating future generations against such stupidity recalcitrant, self-righteous stupidity. Faith destroys brains. Don't let you kiddies grow up to be CW or any of the other crackaloons here!
Posted by: AgnoAtheist | July 25, 2008 1:34 AM
To all those who revel in The Fantasy of Getting PZ Fired -
I think he would prefer to stay where he is but really, can't any of you see that being pressured out of his job would push his financial possibilities into the stratosphere? You simply can't buy that kind of publicity.
And to those who like to throw around the word 'bigot'. A person's skin color, ethnicity, gender, sexual orientation are not open for ridicule or criticism because they are inate. Your religious beliefs are open to mockery and criticism because if your beliefs can't be criticized then you cannot criticize anyone elses (non)beliefs either including PZ's, jihadist's or satanist's. Or do you have rights that others do not? Your very posts betray the stupidity.
Posted by: Jesse | July 25, 2008 1:35 AM
I disagree with #1923. I'm glad the thread is still open. We need to see this - see what Catholics are really like. After this, none of us will have to put up with the hypocritical, soft-spoken Catholic asshole who points at everyone else as crazy fundamentalists.
The last time we saw this hysteria was when a teddy bear was named Muhammed. And everyone watching knows it.
It's time to pick a side. Either respect human life more than your delusions about magical crackers or get ready to move to Iran where that sort of medieval stupidity is welcome.
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 1:35 AM
Ooooh, Catholic vs. Protestant slapfight for the adoration of the God of Love! No hair pulling, please.
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 25, 2008 1:35 AM
So, what you're saying is that in order to think for ourselves, we should disagree with PZ?
Like you.
What happens if we actually agree with you? Does that mean you are thinking for us?
Of course, it could be that we are all perfectly capable of thinking for ourselves, and you're just a bitter little bitch whimpering because no one's paying attention to your inane whining.
Posted by: MB | July 25, 2008 1:36 AM
Hey, I see my favorite Muslim apologist, Nullifidian, is back!
Posted by: Danny | July 25, 2008 1:37 AM
Phenomenal. Trying to use another word of praise that hasn't been used.
PZ that was a fitting end with a really profound message we should all hear.
Thank you.
Posted by: Charlie Matthis | July 25, 2008 1:37 AM
Nothing is sacred.
Beautiful provocation of thought in breath-taking simplicity.
I love The God Delusion. Seeing it in the trash along with the garbage was the pinnacle moment and the 'coup de grace' in this whole social exercise. The honest, benevolent death blow to the tired specter of religion. For those who think science to be a religion with adherents who hold its tenants sacred, do you now understand the stark contrast?
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 1:37 AM
Bob Smith,
Webster Cook was a Catholic. If you'd actually read before commenting you'd know that.
CW, how has PZ 'bashed the whole religion'? Only a tiny, frenzied minority of catholics give a crap about what's happened. If it was an assault on the majority of catholics I suspect the pope would have spoken out by now to reassure the faithful.
It's like saying that when someone criticises the Discovery Institute they're attacking the whole of Christianity - it just ain't so.
Posted by: AndrewG | July 25, 2008 1:38 AM
Catholic League president Bill Donohue is now trying to mobilize Moslems against PZ:
"Moreover, we are also contacting Muslim groups nationwide."
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1465
Posted by: Kel | July 25, 2008 1:39 AM
This isn't hate towards God, it's hatred towards crackers that people worship as God ;)
Honestly, hearing that people actually take a literal interpretation of transubstantiation is the most insane piece of information I've gotten out of this saga. Yes there are Catholic hypocrites who ware issuing violence. That's to be expected. Yes there is a severe case of fatwa envy from a religion that's fallen from importance faster than the speed of gravity. But above it all, I just can't get over the fact that some people actually believe they are eating the body of Christ rather than just taking the ritual as a symbolic throwback to the last supper.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 1:39 AM
Non sequitur and a bad use of sarcasm.
For fuck's sake. You are just talking by yourself. Repeating the same BS doesn't make it any less so.
What's with you and your fatuous ego? As if you are the only one in the world capable of an independent thought. Such hubris.
Posted by: Joe | July 25, 2008 1:39 AM
#1936: I was not there. But don't make this all about the person who tried to stop him. I can agree that there may have been a better way of handling things, but it seems to me that you are all too willing to remove all culpability from someone who should not have gone to communion in the first place, and even if innocently done (not the case) should have been cognizant or willing to understand the sensibilities of the situation.
As it was, having gone to Mass all my life, the typical reception of the Eucharist is now done in the hand. You place the Eucharist in your mouth and walk to the side, then back down a side aisle in a typical church. This is not ample time to formulate a thought-out reaction to someone walking away fumbling the Eucharist around in their hand. I can easily foresee and understand a quick attempt at getting the person's attention. Since none of us were there and there is some debate, it seems reasonable to think that the grabbing was in no way an assault, and if the person was guilty of anything, it was an act of overzealousness and distraction, and it could be embarrassing to this kid, though by his own actions it was in part self-afflicted.
Upon some calmness settling in, though, he then placed the Eucharist in his mouth and purposely pulled it back out, and then went crazy and held it hostage and started wanting to sue people. Come on... even you defenders have to admit that this is every bit as insane as you claim us believers to be.
In the end, despite the fact that there may well have been an overreaction, it does not support your favorite professor's actions. It just doesn't. His act is, at best, a toddler-like tit-for-tat with no purpose other than to annoy and insult. At second worst, it is a purposeful act of hatred and bigotry. At first worst, in the unthinkable event (in your eyes) that you are actually wrong, and - imagine this - the Eucharist is exactly what we say it is, then he has performed and you have openly supported an act of outright evil on the Real Presence of Christ. I know, I know... crazy stuff. But you cannot disprove it, and as such I personally would just leave it alone. But I guess some people just can't do that.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 1:40 AM
Wow- up to 2000 posts. With many repeats. 1900 Atheist /
1 billion Catholics not even counting Christians and other religions. Man, you guys have a lot of campaigning to do if you want PZ to publish a book. And a book about what? you losers and your posts. Ha,ha,ha,ha! better start a kitty folks, he's going to need money for heat this winter. Think about it- no matter who gets involved, this country is a whore for the almighty dollar. Once the college starts seeing a drop in attendance he'll be gone. Besides there are more who believe in God than those who don't. How is he going to keep his classes filled? The college is going to pay this guy to teach a handful of students. Even if he doesn't get canned for this, he'll be gone by next summer- Pure economics folks-
look at the the busy little worker bees, while the queen sleeps
where will they all be when he's looking for work?
Posted by: Christophe Thill | July 25, 2008 1:40 AM
Mary Maria Whitford said:
"If God wanted us to use "reason", "logic", or "science", He would have told us in the Bible instead of telling us exactly what to do and think!"
That can only be irony, right?
Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 1:40 AM
#1945 - i have not expressed hate in my posts - apparently you have not read them. And your definition of hate is your definition, but what pz is doing is hateful. he despises Catholics - how do you know how far he would go to get rid of them?
I guess my facts about the kid are correct -- you basically agree he went to that Mass to provoke. And so he went there looking for trouble, and he found it.
Basically you agree he went into a groups' place of worship with the intent to disturb their worship. What right does he have to do this? Of course folks are looking at this kid as being fanatical, based on his fanatical actions. I'm sure other's did not agree with monies going to religious groups, but they didn't storm the Bastille like this kid did. They probably wrote letters protesting it. They did not figuratively 'spit in religious folks faces' to protest.
What this kid did - interrupting a worship service, was self-centered, selfish, and in fact dangerous int hat a riot could have ensued.
That is why the kid is being censored - he showed lack of judgement. He has not been expelled, but will most likely lose his Senate seat. Yes, he was involved in student govt. All the more reason to act with moderation and not attack religious groups in such a manner.
Yes, people threatened him to give back the Host. Remember, he purposely took the Host to infuriate the Catholics, and guess what, it worked! He held it hostage, when 1) he didn't have to take it in the first place, and 2) he could have given it up as soon as he saw how upsetting his actions were to the Catholics.
He started it, he provoked, and now the consequences of his actions are coming home - he will most likely lose his Senate seat.
And this professor has likewise gone on the offensive and provoked, in defense of that kid's provocative actions.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 25, 2008 1:43 AM
I'm confused by the "Satanists go to Mass to steal jebus crackers" crap.
I don't know much about Satanism, but the few I've known and asked questions of all told me they don't actually believe in Satan...it's symbolic. I was told they don't do all that voodoo-ish mumbo-jumbo Christians think they do.
Do we know any Satanists who will come here and confirm or deny the godbot's claims that they go to mass to steal jebus crackers?
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 1:44 AM
TG has finally revealed his true colours - and his love of huffing furniture polish.
Posted by: Tabby Lavalamp | July 25, 2008 1:45 AM
"I know it's just a cracker. It's just a cow. It's just a rabbit's foot. It's just a paper with green ink on it with a portrait of a president and the number '100'. But if other people value these material objects, whether for religious reasons or not, then let them alone for fuck's sake. They're not harming you.
Posted by: CW"
How are they not harming me? Are they not harming me by taking away my freedom of reproductive choice, or are they not harming me by wanting to take away my right to marry another woman? I'm Canadian, so I currently have those rights despite their most ardent and very vocal objections, and as long as they want to strip me of those rights I will just as vocally point out the ridiculousness of their religion and rites. Rights vs. rites. Seems fair to me.
But that's just me. There's also the millions of people worldwide being harmed by their insistence, along with other sects and religions, that condom use be left out of the fight against AIDS and HIV.
This religion, like most other major religions, is causing very real, very serious harm in today's world. So excuse me for not respecting their frackin' cracker.
Posted by: TonyT | July 25, 2008 1:46 AM
That's right Capital Dan!!
I don't know about any types of moral precepts that fellow atheist bark at each other, threatening each other with eternal damnation if we don't follow them. No moral authority figure that we bow down to and kiss the ring of. No one to tell us how to treat women and dictate if we use birth control. All those ideas come from the moral zeitgeist and our own common sense.
Unlike the obedient pawns of the Pope and other religious figures. Calm, submissive and obedient, which rationality is shunned and though virtuous.
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 1:46 AM
dave: (multiple annoying times)
There are more Muslims than Catholics. Allahu Akbar, loser.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 1:46 AM
To any drone who uncritically chants, "it's just a cracker." Are you REALLY that fucking oblivious?
People assign value to material objects sometimes. Sometimes, material objects play functional or symbolic roles in people's lives (e.g. money, your loved one's gravestone, collectibles, rabbit's feet).
This object means something to a lot of people, even though (granted) it's *just* another object to you. It doesn't follow that we should be bigots and bash an entire goddamned religion, most of whose adherents have not harmed you in any way.
Wake up. Stop being a dick. Stop believing things just because PZ says-so.
"Nothing must be sacred"
Bull. Shit. That's arrogant dogma. It's an assertion without argument. (No, putting it in bold font does not count as an argument, PZ.) Truth is sacred. My kids are sacred. The ring John's wife gave him when she died of cancer, that's sacred. Fuck PZ for being a simplistic, narrow-minded assclown, thoroughly out of touch and uncaring. A lot of you people claim to be skeptical, yet you let a bigot do you thinking for you. You fail.
Posted by: Sleestak | July 25, 2008 1:47 AM
Things that are crackers: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3202/2663312162_c4cbdc4c98_o.jpg
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 25, 2008 1:48 AM
"he despises Catholics - how do you know how far he would go to get rid of them?"
Personally, as far as this space alone goes, I'm hoping for a mass banhammering by tomorrow. The nuts have served their purpose showing that they are, in fact, nuts. But we can't have them breaking shit around here forever, it's already grown tiresome IMO.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 1:48 AM
This a lesson you should all learn from- you are going to see first hand how the world really works, I know you have all been protected till now, being in school and all, but watch and see your idealistic world crumble. You see... you can't just say anything you want. Just like you yell fire in a movie theater or bomb in an airplane. You're "free speech" only goes so far. So my assignment is that you all print this and tuck it under your pillow. By this time next year pull it out and read it.
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 1:49 AM
CW, please for the benefit of the thread, look up "sacred" and it connotations in everyday speech.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 1:49 AM
I think all the godbots are just cranky because their religion is losing its power and cannot get PZ lynched, jailed, or even fired. The glass is almost half full.
Posted by: ZZZZZZ | July 25, 2008 1:49 AM
Typical Internet flame, albeit in a bit more flowery language than on the pedestrian message boards.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 1:51 AM
There are more Muslims than Catholics. Allahu Akbar, loser.
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 1:46 AM
In Minnesota?? ha
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 1:51 AM
Joe, #1965 wrote:
Er, Joe - your 'believers' have likened this to rape, kidnapping and murder and have threatened violence of a similar level to people for doing it.
Do you honestly consider this kid's stupid stunt - whatever his motivations were - to be every bit as insane as wanting to physically harm or kill a person?
If you do, Joe, then you're exactly the sort of person who PZ's actions are intended to reveal.
No doubt you consider atheists bereft of morals.
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 1:52 AM
dave,
I don not consider you an authority of free speech. Nor do I have reason to think you skillful at divination or familiar with the concept of tenure.
Posted by: Lee Picton | July 25, 2008 1:54 AM
I have long been acutely aware of how crazed and looney the Christian fundamentalists are - you know, the ones who declare that the pope is the antichrist, who "didn't come from no monkeys," the ones who blindly follow neocon gurus and think Rush Limpdick is just swell. But seriously, until I began following this thread, I had no idea how crazed and delusional so many catholickers were. Makes me glad to be an atheist and more than ever grateful for my new hero Pz Myers, and his stand against general looneydom. In my book you can be the 5th horseman of the atheist apocopalypse. And oh, yes, before I turn in, did I make it to 2000?
Posted by: Bill Anderson | July 25, 2008 1:54 AM
PZ, from your retelling of the dark side of the eucharist history, I would sum up your sentiment such that considering the many innocent lives that have been claimed in the name of eucharist desecration, the only morally and ethically decent thing to do with eucharist is to publically desecrate them, to demonstrate that eucharist history deserves revulsion, and not respect. And I see your point. More people should get behind this eucharist challenge movement. It may not affect the RCC much, but they may have to lighten up on their attitude concerning the eucharist until this whole episode is forgotten. So many catholics have posted comments here asking that you respect their beliefs, and you have refused. And now, your response should be sufficient to silence them all. If only they could understand. But that will never happen, will it?
Posted by: KenG | July 25, 2008 1:54 AM
Just wait for the fatwah.....it will probably a while until some irate Imam who wants to pick a fight with the US starts the storm ala the 'Danish cartoons'. Maybe send the photo to Iran to speed things up!!
Too much fun, so little time! Take care.
Posted by: Anon | July 25, 2008 1:55 AM
Check your Wiki dip-shit. I'm going to make sure that it's up to date every day for the next month. After that, nobody will remember who you are, assuming that you are still around.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/PZ_Myers#Eucharist_controversy
Posted by: TG | July 25, 2008 1:55 AM
"TG has finally revealed his true colours - and his love of huffing furniture polish."
Hmmmm. Was it the PhD educated biologist and full professor you caught on to first or the Catholic side of me?
You? Your credentials are what? Internet poster? HAR!
Posted by: iamnotanoctopus | July 25, 2008 1:56 AM
PZ, please oh please keep this thread open FOREVER. The lulz go on and on.
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 25, 2008 1:57 AM
CW,
There is a difference between important, sentimental and sacred.
A wedding band, tombstone, children, etc. are important and/or sentimental. So is a cracker, but in this case, some people worship the cracker, holding it sacred. Mind you, this is a violation of the prohibition against idolatry, but Catholics aren't been so good at that anyway.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 1:57 AM
All the college needs is "one" post written on company time and he represents the college. And I'm sure they will find it.
Ha,ha,ha
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 1:58 AM
That's right Anon. You show them who has the moral high ground.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 1:58 AM
KenG,
Considering that translating the Koran into English is, IIRC, itself blasphemy according to Islam, I can't imagine they're going to do anything at all.
Posted by: nozzle 2 | July 25, 2008 1:58 AM
My cult's penis is bigger than your cult's penis...
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 25, 2008 1:58 AM
So, in other words, all you're saying is "boo!"
Dave? Maybe it would help if you looked up what does and does not constitute protected speech.
Then, print it out, and, along with a fistful of sand, shove it squarely up your backside. Your threats really are quite freakin' comical.
Posted by: Cerebelle | July 25, 2008 1:58 AM
What is up with people not reading the post? Jeez, a lot of you folks are so paranoid . . .
How many times can we say it: criticizing a point of view doesn't mean it's a call to ban the point of view.
So all of you guys claiming that PZ wants to get rid of you ("he despises Catholics - how do you know how far he would go to get rid of them? -- #1968), get over yourselves. He has a legitimate point of view that you don't have to agree with, so politely disagree and get on with your lives. If you want to consider the Eucharist to be sacred, then do it--but don't expect everyone to walk on eggshells around you.
Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist | July 25, 2008 1:59 AM
If God exists, He will make me the 2000th poster.
Posted by: Roy Sablosky | July 25, 2008 1:59 AM
I love you, P.Z.!
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 1:59 AM
"How are they not harming me? Are they not harming me by taking away my freedom of reproductive choice, or are they not harming me by wanting to take away my right to marry another woman? I'm Canadian, so I currently have those rights despite their most ardent and very vocal objections, and as long as they want to strip me of those rights I will just as vocally point out the ridiculousness of their religion and rites. Rights vs. rites. Seems fair to me.
But that's just me. There's also the millions of people worldwide being harmed by their insistence, along with other sects and religions, that condom use be left out of the fight against AIDS and HIV.
This religion, like most other major religions, is causing very real, very serious harm in today's world. So excuse me for not respecting their frackin' cracker."
Hogwash. There are gay catholics and pro-choice catholics. You strike me as another oblivious, one-dimensional pseudo-skeptic who's only rubbed shoulders with the lunatics of one particular religion, and you never bother to think beyond the impression they gave you. So therefore the WHOLE religion is a danger to you. Right. Poor you. You can't go out at night because evil catholic vampires with chainsaws will hunt you down and inquire into your sex life. Yeah, it's really that dangerous.
Nobody's asking you to respect a cracker. There's a difference between tolerating something and respecting it; the former can be practiced without the latter. You're being asked to wise up and realize that people assign value to different things for different reasons. It's what humans do, genius. You're being asked to think for yourself instead of praising the irrational bigot that is PZ Myers.
Posted by: BobC | July 25, 2008 1:59 AM
Professor Myers, I was saddened to hear of your plans to harm our Lord Jesus Christ. It obviously isn't the first time and it won't be the last. I know you do not believe, but what if it truly is Jesus that you are attempting to hurt? You are in my prayers.
Sounds like a nice reasonable person, except for the unfortunate fact he's batshit crazy.
I used to be a Catholic but I don't think I was ever that brainwashed.
Apparently PZ received thousands of emails like this. The Catholic religion really is a disease. There's something seriously wrong with these people. They seem to be permanently trapped in an idiotic fantasy world with no hope of escape.
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 2:00 AM
No dave, that simply isn't how it works. But keep hoping. Maybe you should say a prayer? That always gets results.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 2:00 AM
#1983
dave,
I don not consider you an authority of free speech. Nor do I have reason to think you skillful at divination or familiar with the concept of tenure.
Tenure? tenure...it doesn't mean squat, Watch and learn
Posted by: Rrr | July 25, 2008 2:01 AM
Brilliantly executed, PZ. Your actions and attitude give me warm fuzzy feelings of happiness inside, especially the lack of giving this more importance than what it's worth. At the risk of sounding creepy: My admiration for you just keeps growing. You're definitely an inspiration and a role model.
"PZ,you should eat your bananas before they turn brown."
Before they turn completely brown? Probably. Before they turn speckled? Nah, the only thing that happens is that they get sweeter. If it turns very brown but hasn't gone bad yet it's going to be extremely sweet. Great in banana cakes as you can use less sugar, if any. :-D
Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 2:02 AM
#1961 I read it when it first happened -- i couldn't remember if he was Catholic or not - he was with someone who might not have been Catholic, I guess. His actions are not that of a properly catechized Catholic - the Host is not supposed to be a part of some show and tell. If he believes it is Christ and he held Christ hostage, that is bad. If he doesn't believe it is Jesus, then he is not in fact 'Catholic'. It is not enough to be baptized a Catholic, one must hold to the beliefs to remain in the Body of Christ. Not believing in transubstantiation is tantamount to not being Catholic.
Anyway, if he is Catholic, I stand corrected. But his actions in holding a Host hostage are beyond rational. And very provocative. And this professor showing such disrespect to Catholics is very hurtful to see. And for what?
Posted by: Siddharth | July 25, 2008 2:02 AM
Speak for yourself. I study science and engineering at one of asia's premier technology universities. There are many religious people among the faculty and students but there are also many students who applaud the rationality and logic with which Prof Myers has displayed in promoting critical thinking and disman.
Please remember that one of the jobs of a professor is teaching the scientific method and critical thinking. If more professors here were like prof myers, my university can only be a better place.
Posted by: brokenSoldier, OM | July 25, 2008 2:02 AM
Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 1:40 AMSomeone is getting their tactics in argumentation straight from the Bill O'Reilly handbook...
Asserting proven falsehoods and adding the caveat that we all know them to be true, despite multiple examples of disagreement and refutation, will get you nothing more than ridicule and derision - all of it quite deserved.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 2:02 AM
No dave, that simply isn't how it works. But keep hoping. Maybe you should say a prayer? That always gets results.
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 2:00 AM
Oh..Idealist, that's exactly how it works
Posted by: AndrewG | July 25, 2008 2:04 AM
Wow, to think that an internet blog can rattle the foundations of the almighty Roman Catholic Church. All it takes is a punch in the soft underbelly of the dragon.
Bill Donohue, give it up, the entire rotten structure of your organization is starting to crumble. Reason is your number one enemy.
Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist | July 25, 2008 2:04 AM
BobC,
You did it, ya fuckin' nut-job! Hooray for you!
Posted by: Zaphod | July 25, 2008 2:06 AM
dave, get over yourself and your batshit crazy co-cultists. You can't do shit to Professor Myers, and, even if, somehow, you did, all it would prove is that you haven't really changed at all since the bloodthirsty, murdering savages you were in the 1200s.
RTFA.
Posted by: Rayven Alandria | July 25, 2008 2:06 AM
I am going to head off to bed.
If I can pull myself away from the CRACK-ergate, that is. The morbid stupidity flowing from the catholics has kept me reading for hours on end. I must pull away.
I go to bed trying to convince myself that not all catholics are as immoral and batshit crazy as the ones who have posted here. What's sad is, the ones who are not batshit crazy will be considered *fake* catholics by these nuttards. I fear there may be more nuttards than the non-crazy ones.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 2:06 AM
TG,
Exactly how does being either a PhD or a Catholic preclude you from being a huffer of furniture polish?
You write things like 'Jesus knew what PZ was going to do 2000 years before he did it' and you're going to get doubts cast upon your mental state - artificially induced or otherwise.
Posted by: Biopunk | July 25, 2008 2:06 AM
Guess not Cheerful...
Posted by: Electric Monk | July 25, 2008 2:06 AM
I'm just wondering whether there's going to be a mass movement of Catholics who refuse to eat beef - Cows are sacred to hinus after all. If it's good for the goose...
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 2:06 AM
CW, what is THE CHURCH's official stance on homosexuality? What about abortion? Are you so foolish as to assume that you are a part of a religion that doesn't have a central authority that is decreed infallible? What some few individuals, or even a great majority believe makes not a wit of difference in terms of what catholics are dictated to as truth.
What their holy book proclaims, and what their central figures decree is what "the church" believes. Period. And don't get pissy with me about it. I didn't make such asinine rules.
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 25, 2008 2:07 AM
CW,
There are gay catholics and pro-choice catholics. You strike me as another oblivious, one-dimensional pseudo-skeptic who's only rubbed shoulders with the lunatics of one particular religion, and you never bother to think beyond the impression they gave you.
So... the pope and the Catholic church leadership are lunatics?
I see we can agree on something.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 2:07 AM
So, in other words, all you're saying is "boo!"
Dave? Maybe it would help if you looked up what does and does not constitute protected speech.
Then, print it out, and, along with a fistful of sand, shove it squarely up your backside. Your threats really are quite freakin' comical.
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 25, 2008 1:58 AM
No Actually I'm laughing at you're inexperience of how this world works. It's not my threat...it just is what it is.
Posted by: Devin | July 25, 2008 2:07 AM
Haha really, why does anyone care what a minor professor and an unheard-of university says about religion? You guys are pathetic... and your unscientific garbage that you coat with a scientific effervesence is truly ridiculous.
Realize that what you say, your 'nothing is sacred' view, doesn't matter at all. You, and everyone else here, including me, is a nobody. The fact that you can be rude, disrespectful, and incoherent only shows that you are, in fact, a moron. It doesn't convince anyone, but then it's obvious that's not what you guys want. You just want to be able to demean a large group of people, because it makes you feel powerful and smart. I hope you can deal with the power-issues that make you do this, because until then, you will continue to look like an ass to everyone except yourself.
Get a LIFE.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:07 AM
Why should I tolerate insipid stupidity?
Again with the fatuous egocentricity: if someone doesn't agree with you, they aren't thinking for themselves. And stop repeating the "irrational bigot" schtick. It's annoying.
Posted by: Charlie Foxtrot | July 25, 2008 2:07 AM
@Dave
Just a hypothetical question - say that PZ is still happily enjoying his tenure and blogging steadfastly this time next year...
... will that crush you? Destroy your self-delusion in a wrathful, vengeful, trigger-happy invisible father-figure that somehow can also express infinite love, especially for you?
Could you please come back next year and describe it to us? In detail?
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 2:10 AM
Idealist? No dave, it's actually written down... It's how universities work.
You're kinda scary in an impotent and creepy sorta way...
Posted by: AgnoAtheist | July 25, 2008 2:10 AM
Bob Smith (2004)
"But his actions in holding a Host hostage are beyond irrational."
And with that I am off to bed. Nite all.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 25, 2008 2:10 AM
Company time?
He represents the college?
dave obviously hasn't a fucking clue what a university is.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 2:11 AM
"A wedding band, tombstone, children, etc. are important and/or sentimental. So is a cracker, but in this case, some people worship the cracker, holding it sacred. Mind you, this is a violation of the prohibition against idolatry, but Catholics aren't been so good at that anyway."
If PZ stumbled up to your wive's grave site (say), threw his garbage on it, and posted it online for all to see because, after all, it's "just a piece of earth" and "nothing must be sacred" I hesitate to believe that you'd calmly nod in approval and walk away.
Stop invoking meaningless semantics to justify something most rational and sane people (=people distinct from the tiny circle of atheist fanatics on this blog) would decidedly categorize as bigotry. You're INSANE.
Come back when you're ready to wake up and acknowledge the obvious anthropological fact that not everything is "just a" material object, and that humans place value on things for different reasons.
Posted by: antaresrrichard | July 25, 2008 2:11 AM
"M-m-mengeance ith mine; I m-mill mepay," saith a toothless, mumbling Lord in whose word his supposed believers seem to place little or no faith.
Bravo to you PZ!
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 2:12 AM
AndrewG said:
Man, I hope someone leaks the text of that entreaty.
"Dear Honored Mullah and esteemed Prophet of Allah, may He bless your camels,
It's been a while since I've written, but I just wanted to say sorry about that whole Muhammed Teddy Bear thing. And the Muhammed cartoon thing. And those 2nd, 3rd, and 6th Crusades...
Anyway, just wanted to ask a quick favor, all my friends are declaring Holy Jihad on the unbeliever PZ Myers, and we wanted to invite you along. Hope to see you there!
Love,
your pal Bill Donoghue
PS, you know we were just kidding with all that mean stuff we said about nuking you all after 911."
Posted by: Joe | July 25, 2008 2:13 AM
"Er, Joe - your 'believers' have likened this to rape, kidnapping and murder and have threatened violence of a similar level to people for doing it. "
Please. Do you see Catholics rioting? Do you see buildings burning? Has one person been physically harmed over the incident? You have found some quote by someone on the internet in an emotional state and ascribed it to all Catholics. Atheists absolutely hate it when they are broad-brushed in some categorical way, and all I have seen on this board is an absolute broad-brushing of any Christian - Catholic or otherwise. That is truly hypocritical. For the record, any threats of physical harm are NOT appropriate, and utterly wrong. Emotional overreaction and stupid statements are unfortunately human. Christians are sinners as well as everyone else, and fall well short of where we need to be on the scale of kindness and goodness much of the time. Guilty as charged. Threats are not to be defended. That said, your overgeneralization of the universal application of how "Christians" react is absurd.
"Do you honestly consider this kid's stupid stunt - whatever his motivations were - to be every bit as insane as wanting to physically harm or kill a person?"
No. And I'm quite certain that if you had honest discussions with 99.999% of Christians in venues other than anonymous bulletin boards, you would find that the zeal for bloodshed is quite lacking in the general Christian and Catholic communities. I've made it my whole life and have managed to refrain from killing the heretics around me.
"If you do, Joe, then you're exactly the sort of person who PZ's actions are intended to reveal."
This is a red herring. His actions weren't intendEr, Joe - your 'believers' have likened this to rape, kidnapping and murder and have threatened violence of a similar level to people for doing it.
Do you honestly consider this kid's stupid stunt - whatever his motivations were - to be every bit as insane as wanting to physically harm or kill a person?
If you do, Joe, then you're exactly the sort of person who PZ's actions are intended to reveal.
No, you're wrong. This was and is intended to simply be a mockery of what Catholics believe, using the excuse of protest based on some kid who is whining about physical abuse from some lady who grabbed his arm. I mean, really...
"No doubt you consider atheists bereft of morals."
You see, now I never said that, did I? You have put words in my mouth. The actions of the atheists in these responses who are so quick to call any Christian an "ass" and eschew any sense of civility could easily lead me to believe this, but I happen to know enough atheists, and in fact are friends with some atheists, have an Uncle whom I love and is an atheist, and therefore do not believe all are bereft of morals. Now, I disagree with their views, and I believe that sense of morality has its origin in God. But I believe we are all made in God's image, and even if an atheist refuses to acknowledge or accept it, God's goodness can be very evident in an atheist. Thus, all people - atheists or not - should be treated with dignity and respect, even in disagreement. That is far different, however, than condoning despicable actions intended to harm. Desecrating the Eucharist cannot be condoned in any way by a Catholic, and it is insulting and is not using the dignity with which the person was bestowed.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:13 AM
Yeah dave, because you are the only one who wasn't born yesterday. Oh great wise one, tell us young'ns how the world really works.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 2:14 AM
Bob Smith wrote:
Well, we agree on something there, Bob. That anyone would consider that a cracker can be held hostage is indeed irrational.
Because he'd like to inform/remind the world that, despite it being 2008, people can still not only hold relics of an outdated bronze-age superstition sacred, but hold these objects in greater esteem than human life and well-being.
Posted by: BobC | July 25, 2008 2:14 AM
BobC, You did it, ya fuckin' nut-job! Hooray for you! Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist
Yeah, I noticed I scored the 2,000th comment. I was surprised because I didn't realize there were that many comments already.
Posted by: Leo Scott | July 25, 2008 2:15 AM
PZ, you're a thief. Holy communion is for the faithful, to be consumed immediately.
If you ever develop a conscience, the sin you committed requires papal absolution... or you can take your chances with God.
Further, if you actually knew anything about Catholic theology, you'd realize that the theologians agree all you'd find are the physical nature of bread. (What are called "accidents", as opposed to the essence, which is what is changed.)
How shallow your life must be, needing to destroy others faiths for your own pleasure. Realize as well, you are preaching a religion: Sceince-exclusive rationalism.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 2:16 AM
@Dave
Just a hypothetical question - say that PZ is still happily enjoying his tenure and blogging steadfastly this time next year...
... will that crush you? Destroy your self-delusion in a wrathful, vengeful, trigger-happy invisible father-figure that somehow can also express infinite love, especially for you?
Could you please come back next year and describe it to us? In detail?
I don't even have to worry about it, but if it does, I will surely be here and I'll admit my error. As long as when PZ is gone you all come back and do the same. Heck- You will be just fine Charlie, you come back. Oh...young lads of the world, how disappointed and crushed you will all be to learn the way things work.
Posted by: Kel | July 25, 2008 2:17 AM
Did anyone else laugh at the irony of this comment?Posted by: mwb | July 25, 2008 2:17 AM
"I am not even convinced that he should lose his job over this."
How generous, you complete tool.
Posted by: I am me | July 25, 2008 2:18 AM
Why are some of the idiots on here insisting on using improper analogies to the cracker.
Take CW's here, about dumping garbage on your wife's grave because "it's just earth".
NO IT ISN'T "JUST EARTH". There's a SIGNIFICANT DIFFERENCE between a grave and a cracker. If you can't see that, you're either stupid or ignorant.
The difference:
My wife's grave demonstrably has the body of my wife buried under the earth. It is demonstrably more than "just earth".
The cracker, by *any system of measurement available to humans, religious or otherwise" can not be demonstrated to be anything other than a cracker.
This is where all of these analogies have fallen down. Everything anyone has compared the cracker desecration to, such as stealing hair from a corpse, burning a book made of the skin and flesh of a loved one (eww) or dumping garbage on a grave... they are all demonstrably more than they are (it's more than "just hair", it's more than "just a book", it's more than "just some earth"). The Cracker is *nothing* more than "just a cracker".
Just accept that. Your belief makes no difference to what something actually is.
Posted by: Karla | July 25, 2008 2:18 AM
The Blessed Mother once showed the children at Fatima in Portugal when she was appearing there that souls were falling into hell like snowflakes. I often wondered, wow, are there that many evil people in the world? I guess now I know... May God have mercy on your souls. Many of us are praying for all of you (even though you may laugh at this).
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:19 AM
You do a flawless parody of yourself, dave.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 2:19 AM
PZ is an uncaring bastard and an irrational bigot. Plain and simple. If you approve of what he did, regardless of your religious beliefs or lack thereof, there is something fundamentally wrong with you.
Posted by: Karla | July 25, 2008 2:19 AM
The Blessed Mother once showed the children at Fatima in Portugal when she was appearing there that souls were falling into hell like snowflakes. I often wondered, wow, are there that many evil people in the world? I guess now I know... May God have mercy on your souls. Many of us are praying for all of you (even though you may laugh at this).
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 2:19 AM
It's not semantics CW. Sacred doesn't mean what you think it means. You're simply abusing english to express you're outrage. Value judgements remain intact despite PZ nailing a cracker. And the basis of which we give things value does not hold in favor of the importance your church has placed on a cracker. Mumbled over or not. The whole issue here is that because of your unevidenced religious beliefs, you have placed undue value upon a cracker.
In short, you suffer from a delusion.
Posted by: nozzle 2 | July 25, 2008 2:20 AM
Karla,
I will reason for you. You will be in my reasonings (even though you may smile at this.)
Posted by: freelancer | July 25, 2008 2:21 AM
@ Devin #2018 (Jesus Coffee Grounds, I've never seen it reach that high on this site)
Devin is obviously the "apathetic/Youtube random commenter-troll"
He isn't worthy of being responding to, that is other than mockery.
Shorter Devin, as he types feverishly with anger in his parent's basement in the ultimate gesture of projection:
"Oh, Yeah, well Catholics are stupid, but you're just trying to get FAMOUS. Ergo, you suck!"
Fuck off, troll. Go find a Star Wars vs. Harry Potter board to flame.
Peace,
Nick
Posted by: Amy | July 25, 2008 2:21 AM
Phew. Now you can start blogging about science again.
Posted by: Zaphod | July 25, 2008 2:21 AM
One thing that is critical to remember is PZ's discussion of whole towns wiped out, dozens (perhaps hundreds) killed because of a rumor they might have "desecrated" (whatever that means) a "Host" (whatever that means).
The modern day Catholics posting on this thread are most upset that they can't do stuff like that any more.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:22 AM
Oh fuck off.
Posted by: NonWonderDog | July 25, 2008 2:23 AM
Wow, some sick fuck keeps trying to post PZ Myers' home address and lots of info about his kids on his Wikipedia page.
In the last two minutes, though, it looks like the page has been deleted, the info purged from the archives, the sick fuck banned, and the page reinstated without his home address. Those Wiki folks work fast.
Posted by: Neural T | July 25, 2008 2:24 AM
Something tells me that this saga is really just beginning...
Posted by: Gordon S | July 25, 2008 2:24 AM
It's all fun and games until the cracker sprouts limbs and desecrates your mayonnaise.
Posted by: kristen | July 25, 2008 2:24 AM
I was hoping that PZ would include a copy of the Origin of Species or something similar. I'm happy to see The God Delusion so abused; this sent exactly the right message.
I consider myself an atheist of limited social sophistication who is sometimes rude and apologetic, and sometimes rude and unapologetic. In this case, I'm not sure how to be. I regret that some people seem to be genuinely hurt by what PZ has done. I regret even more that their delusions have made them so fragile that pitching a host in the garbage causes such despair. If the unfortunate fate of this cracker affects them so deeply, I cannot imagine the agony that poverty, disease, genocide and torture must inflict.
Posted by: AndyD | July 25, 2008 2:24 AM
woops, digg this one instead:
http://digg.com/general_sciences/Pharyngula_The_Great_Desecration#
Just need a few more for it to become popular and hit front page.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 2:25 AM
#2028 No Actually I'm laughing at you're inexperience of how this world works. It's not my threat...it just is what it is.
Yeah dave, because you are the only one who wasn't born yesterday. Oh great wise one, tell us young'ns how the world really works.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:13 AM
watch and see! and how many years have you been on this earth? Twenty? twenty-five? what's that? only 5-10 more than when you where 15yrs. You see, I once also believed in the old college rebellious "the way we want the world to be" but as you are all going to see, it's all about what the college can bring in (cash). I'm not bitter, I've just become a realist. PZ- you have spent too much time in the academics, the real world doesn't have these tolerances.
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 2:26 AM
CW at #2038:
Ding, ding! False witness, maybe you should go for all 10?
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:26 AM
You are like a whiny little child. Keep repeating the same schtick, that'll make it come true. Serious, how is PZ uncaring? irrational? a bigot?
Posted by: Screechy Monkey | July 25, 2008 2:27 AM
Guys, I forget -- which godbotting troll was it who was spamming earlier threads with his taunts that PZ would never actually do it because deep down he really believes and was afraid of the consequences? And have we heard from said douchebag recently?
Posted by: Sandi | July 25, 2008 2:27 AM
Is there any rule against all of us changing our posting name to Sandi?
Posted by: black wolf | July 25, 2008 2:28 AM
For those who think this was an isolated incident, something very similar happened in Germany in January 2007. The story: A man, Thomas R., lapsed Protestant, pockets the Eucharist at the mass. He entered the church in curiosity at the ritual taking place, and gets in the line to see what it's about. He's handed the wafer, bites off a bit, finds it tasteless and pockets the rest to examine later, as he said. On the way back, two women who had been watching block his path and demand to know where he put the wafer. He explains that he pocketed it, and they respond by lecturing him that it was a sin and that God will punish him for it. He responds that his God certainly would not do so. The women get physical and try to search his pockets for the wafer. Someone makes the deacon aware of what's going on. The deacon, a tall and allegedly physically strong man, joins the women and allegedly takes hold of the man's arm. He tries to shake the holding and searching hands off, and more faithful join in. The deacon takes the man into a police armlock and with combined effort wrestle him to the ground, where they allegedly search and empty most of his pockets, painfully holding him down. To escape, the man claims to have eaten the wafer and they let him go. He reports to the nearest police station and then goes to a hospital where he's diagnosed with bruises, abrasions and a swelling of his ankle (assertedly someone stepped on it in the 'fight').
The punchline: the public prosecution department (as required) files a lawsuit against Thomas R. for theft and disturbing the free practice of religion, punishable with up to three years in prison. The deacon regrets his physical action, but asserts that he'd let himself be killed to protect the Host.
http://tinyurl.com/5v2kjt
All charges against both parties have been dropped because of contradictory allegations and no evidential (theft) or considerable (injury) damage.
Interestingly, Catholic media reporting the incident second-hand largely omitted the part of the original report where it speaks of the armlock and the wrestling to the floor. They call Thomas R. a thief outrightly, assuming he acted on malice, intent on committing a theft (without evidence). They also imply that he got a false diagnosis at the hospital (without evidence), by cleverly twisting the grammar of the original report to imply he demanded a specific diagnosis.
Comments on the Catholic site which misrepresented the incident (kath.net): - the desecrator should have been knocked down with a heavy candlestick to the head
- they should have kneed him you-know-where
- they used to beat the living daylights out of thieves like this one
- he's probably a Satanist
- try something like that in a mosque or a synagogue...
- dismissing the case is due to the liberal conspiration in the prosecution (Freemasons I tellz ya!)
Really, the novelty value of discovering more and more liars for Jesus is wearing off. The same deception, the same lies, the same passive-aggressive mindset, the same desire that violence be committed by others, the same fatwa envy, the same false equivocations.
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 2:28 AM
Yes, dave, we get that this is your opinion. But as only time will tell, your repeated claims only make you tiresome.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 2:29 AM
"they are all demonstrably more than they are (it's more than "just hair", it's more than "just a book", it's more than "just some earth")."
Boy would you make a good catholic.
You've missed the point, dipshit. These things are valuable *to you*. But what does the man who burns his dead care about your wife's grave site?
You've got your shit. Catholics have theirs. Grow up and show some fucking tolerance. It's a religion; it's bound to have assholes. But that doesn't mean we should go out and bash the whole thing. Come back when you're ready to stop blindly cheering on bigotry.
Posted by: Rrr | July 25, 2008 2:29 AM
No no no, it doesn't work that way because the grave is not his property. A more fitting analogy would be if PZ had been given a microgram or picogram of your wife's ashes (keep in mind how many communion wafers go through the churches, even just on an annual basis), and he then would have chucked it into the trash because "nothing's sacred".
You're aware of that even earth you walk on in a park is the result of pretty fascinating lives of critters, plants, trees, geological processes etc? I don't see why people need fictional miracles and magic when everything in our lives is truly awe-inspiring. We even live on a small ball of dirt swishing through space at great speed, orbiting a big ball of plasma. Even the fact that _you_ exist took a great deal of circumstance. Life itself is amazing and impressive, never forget that. Just because you're too used to your life and world doesn't mean it isn't infinitely more fantastic than what you give it credit for.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 2:30 AM
Joe,
I wrote what I wrote because you said what PZ did to be 'as insane' as the reactions of Catholics to what he did.
Describing what PZ did as 'insane' is ridiculous. What he did can be argued to be rude, insulting, offensive, nasty, mean - cruel, even - but it's far from 'insane'. He has caused actual physical harm to no-one; he has caused upset to a very small minority of one sect of Christianity.
I say 'very small minority' because the majority of the catholics in the world are ignoring him - it's only a frenzied few who are jumping up and down about it. And it's the reaction of those extremist few that PZ's actions were intended to highlight. More than one catholic has posted on his site to say just that.
I suspect one of his goals was to get catholics to prove they're capable of extremism - and he's done just that.
Posted by: Ed | July 25, 2008 2:30 AM
Or Ed?
Posted by: Ed | July 25, 2008 2:30 AM
HAHAHA DISREGARD THAT, I SUCK COCKS
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 25, 2008 2:30 AM
#2039 Posted by: Karla | July 25, 2008 2:19 AM
Just to put this in perspective, when once-upon-a-time I did consider myself religious, my belief system was that all Catholics were going to Hell. I believed this because of the prohibitions against idolatry, and worshiping three gods-in-one rather than the one true God, "I AM."
Are you absolutely sure your version of Faith is correct? Because, for a time, I was. But I'd never presume to tell God what to do and ask Him to forgive you - that was up to Him.
But if you think you have power over your god and can bend him to your will, you just keep on asking him to have mercy on our souls, despite his clear description of the fates we have already secured. It will have just as much effect as any other prayer (even those asking we be damned to Hell). It will even have exactly as much effect as doing nothing at all, as far as our souls are concerned. I think most of us will admit to not having souls to be concerned for.
JBS
Posted by: bob smith | July 25, 2008 2:31 AM
"But his actions in holding a Host hostage are beyond rational" - by this I mean he acted unreasonably when asked to return the Host, and as such does not deserve to be a Senator.
And on the theme of the professor's attempt to mock only Catholics and not really hit at Muslims or atheists, he began this blog with 'it is finished', the last words of Christ as he hung nailed to the cross. He nailed the Host in mockery, and wrote, 'it is finished' in total total mockery of Catholics, and the last words of Jesus.
Actually, I think this professor is just a sick, sick man, filled with nothing but hate. No, he does not live by the golden rule.
Posted by: Zaphod | July 25, 2008 2:32 AM
An insight into the Catholic mind (such as it is) that explains many of the god-bopping b.s. on this thread:
"From the most foul well of indifferentism flows that absurd and erroneous opinion, or rather delirium, of liberty of conscience."
-- Gregory XVI, Encyclical, "Mirari Vos" (1832)
Posted by: articulett | July 25, 2008 2:34 AM
Don't you believers see-- you are just as riotously funny and out of place as if Scientologists were claiming religious discrimination because of "Anonymous" or Mormons were exclaiming because PZ decided to desecrate their magic underwear. You are embarrassing your beliefs in the same way. Your idle threats and off topic blathering is on par with exactly the kind of stuff they would say.
Trust your magic man to fight his own battles--why the threats and vague implication of "bad things happening"... eh? Don't you trust your benevolent wise man to fight his own battles? And the bible does tell you to pray in the closet. If you don't want us mocking you, keep your beliefs as private as you keep your fetishes... and allow us to disrespect your nuttery as you allow yourself to disrespect Scientology or Mormonism.
Free speech is not just for those who agree with you.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 2:34 AM
"Serious, how is PZ uncaring? irrational? a bigot?"
Stop crying and see above.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:35 AM
You haven't become a realist, you just don't have a very good understanding of how tenures work. You need a solid reason for dismissal, then you need unanimous board approval. The board is made up of almost exclusively PZ's colleagues in the University, other faculty. You see how no one is worried that he lose his job?
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 2:36 AM
CW, the only assholes being mocked are the ones who believe a cracker is sacred and are threatening others over its "sacredness".
If you're not one of those assholes, why are you defending them?
Posted by: Tabby Lavalamp | July 25, 2008 2:36 AM
"Hogwash. There are gay catholics and pro-choice catholics. You strike me as another oblivious, one-dimensional pseudo-skeptic who's only rubbed shoulders with the lunatics of one particular religion, and you never bother to think beyond the impression they gave you. So therefore the WHOLE religion is a danger to you. Right. Poor you. You can't go out at night because evil catholic vampires with chainsaws will hunt you down and inquire into your sex life. Yeah, it's really that dangerous.
Posted by: CW"
Kudos for the mockery and sarcasm. There's a small problem though...
I am someone you insultingly said (despite my never insulting you) "who's only rubbed shoulders with the lunatics of one particular religion". If by "lunatics" you mean "the people in charge" and "the official stance of the Catholic church", then you may be right.
For someone who isn't Catholic (see? I read your comments) you are trying very hard to paint the Vatican and the Catholic leadership as the lunatic fringe of the religion. Yes, there are people within the religion who disagree with certain tenets, but they're not the ones with the power in the organization. They're not the ones grabbing newspaper headlines. How many of them did we hear from when California legalized same-sex marriage? They're definitely not the ones exerting influence in such things as the fight against AIDS worldwide.
But you can't actually think things through before you speak because you're too busy keeping your imaginary moral high horse intact. The fact that you have to diminish the influence Catholic leadership in the Catholic church to help you show what a true individual you are is really quite pathetic.
Posted by: I am me | July 25, 2008 2:38 AM
Posted by: delosgatos | July 25, 2008 2:39 AM
The deeply disturbed Ray wrote:
look up Federal anti-discrimination policy. PZ Myers tossing the Holy Eucharist into a garbage can is absolutely comparable to an ethnic hate crime; even more so since it is blasphemy and disrespect toward OUR LORD AND SAVIOR
looking up... yer doin it wrong...
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 2:39 AM
"A more fitting analogy would be if PZ had been given a microgram or picogram of your wife's ashes"
And then threw garbage on it and posted it on the net? That's supposed to be more appropriate? The point is the same, einstein.
People value things. Deal with it.
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 25, 2008 2:39 AM
Devin, it is Catholics who are throwing a fit over a magic cracker, and not even a tasty one. Not even a townhouse cracker, or one with some tasty beer cheese, but a flat little magic wafer of a tiny bit of starch.
You see, it isn't science at stake here, but basic rational thought.
It is not rational to throw a fit over a cracker.
We are making fun of this lack of rational capacity. So sorry you and your medieval superstitions are so easily bruised.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 2:39 AM
Maybe PZ's got another job lined up anyhow - isn't the Simonyi job opening up soon?
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 2:40 AM
Oh...young lads of the world, how disappointed and crushed you will all be to learn the way things work.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:19 AM
You do a flawless parody of yourself, dave.
If anyone is the parody it's all of you. So full of life, so full of ideals in college, looking to change the world-just like the sixties hey? guess what -Old PZ is giving you a life lesson that you aren't going to learn in college. Unfortunately, it will be at the expense of himself. Rather the unfortunate part is that this knucklehead did it when he has a family to take care of, I want you to all watch how a man lets his ego get ahead of his responsibilities to his wife and child.
Posted by: Liz | July 25, 2008 2:41 AM
Hey, maybe next you can go find the kid who beat you up in the third grade and dookie on his laptop or something.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:41 AM
CW, we've buried your lame analogies thousands of comments ago. You were better off repeating yourself.
Posted by: I am me | July 25, 2008 2:42 AM
Hah. I messed up the blockquoting there, huh? It's still readable though.
Posted by: Rrr | July 25, 2008 2:43 AM
In that case, yes, any outrage *would* be rather silly. Because it's just earth. Nothing more.
I'd be pretty outraged. Littering isn't good. ;-)
Assuming by "garbage" you mean non-compost items, i.e. standard unrecycled household trash.
Posted by: Anon | July 25, 2008 2:43 AM
Yep, this is just beginning.
Keeping with the theme that "nothing is sacred"
Paul & Mary Myers
300 College Ave
Morris, MN 56267
Oldest Son Alaric Myers, graduated from St. Cloud 9/07
Middle Son Connlann Myers
Daughter Skatje Myers Attending UMM
Data gleaned from public tax records and his own vanity web page.
http://homepage.mac.com/myers/
Posted by: MB | July 25, 2008 2:44 AM
Michael X @2021, lol - yes Dave is creepy, but much more unintentionally funny than scary - and a world class fucking moron who doesn't have a clue how the world or universities work!
I've known shitbags like him in the "real world" for more than 30 years, and they're just that - creepy shitbags!
Posted by: Anonn | July 25, 2008 2:45 AM
Yep, this is just beginning.
Keeping with the theme that "nothing is sacred"
Paul & Mary Myers
300 College Ave
Morris, MN 56267
Oldest Son Alaric Myers, graduated from St. Cloud 9/07
Middle Son Connlann Myers
Daughter Skatje Myers Attending UMM
Data gleaned from public tax records and his own vanity web page.
http://homepage.mac.com/myers/
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 25, 2008 2:45 AM
Something tells me dave is a bit bitter about college, perhaps he flunked out back in the day. It would explain his persistent failure to write legibly.
Posted by: sandi | July 25, 2008 2:46 AM
CW, time to take the meds... go with the nice men in the white coats
Posted by: Charlie Foxtrot | July 25, 2008 2:46 AM
@dave
Mate - you must be one cantankerous old fart to be calling me 'lad'.
I'm very happy that the world is rapidly changing from the one that made you so cynical, and my kids are seeing a civilisation much less rooted in ancient mystical beliefs. They will be able to enjoy the universe without a veneer of magic and dogma blurring all the good bits.
Not that I do think that PZ's job is at any risk, but if it was, I assure you that there are enough young-un's who value a good educator - even if he lives in another country from us - to drown out any number of you decomposing dogmatics.
Posted by: kristen | July 25, 2008 2:46 AM
I'm hesitant to poke my nose into this, but I can't get to sleep (I'm working this summer at a Starbucks and I downed too much of the leftover frap before closing tonight).
To answer CW: I don't think that you can call PZ a bigot. being religious is like being a Democrat, or being a Libertarian, or being *shudder* a New Age pinhead - you have chosen to believe in a bunch of ideas. It isn't like being black, or being Canadian, or being short... which are things that you cannot choose.
It is very dangerous when a bunch of ideas can be set aside as special and "sacred" and off-limits to criticism. Dogmatic belief is what PZ is attacking here. Unfortunately, attacking dogma often causes offense. If it didn't, well, then it wouldn't be dogma.
You have every right to be offended. Just as religious (and political) dogma offends so many of us here. But don't try to call it "bigoted." It really isn't.
Posted by: Odonata | July 25, 2008 2:47 AM
This whole post isn't about hating people or certain groups of people. It is about criticizing their beliefs. People should be able to express their opinions and not be threatened with violence. Something is wrong in the culture when we see people having such attachment to symbols that they threaten violence when people call their beliefs into question.
Posted by: MB | July 25, 2008 2:48 AM
Anon, you fucking shitbag, shouldn't you be posting personal information at the Catholic League or Catholic.com where your psycho friends are more likely to lurk and act on the info?
Nazi fuck.
Posted by: Anonn | July 25, 2008 2:49 AM
Jesus, that Skatje is one ugly bitch!
Posted by: Zaphod | July 25, 2008 2:50 AM
So, "Anon's" point is that his "peaceful", "loving" cult is filled with psychotic, bloodthirsty criminal assholes, which is the only reason he could possibly think people should fear being known.
Thanks, but we already knew Catholics were that way.
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 25, 2008 2:51 AM
CW,
If PZ stumbled up to your wive's grave site (say), threw his garbage on it, and posted it online for all to see because, after all, it's "just a piece of earth" and "nothing must be sacred" I hesitate to believe that you'd calmly nod in approval and walk away.
I'd be annoyed, but I wouldn't go nutty over it. Sacred vs important and sentimental. Besides, if my wife were dead, she'd be decomposing, not freaking out over a bit of garbage.
Come back when you're ready to wake up and acknowledge the obvious anthropological fact that not everything is "just a" material object, and that humans place value on things for different reasons.
Its just a cracker. You consider it sacred, and fix magic and superstitious significance to it. We say that it shouldn't be sacred (and if you bothered reading your holy babble, you would notice that you shouldn't consider an item worthy of idolatry). Its just a cracker. If you can't deal, call the waaaahmbulance.
Oh, and you don't control this blog, so don't act like a kid and try to control its content.
Posted by: Rrr | July 25, 2008 2:51 AM
"People value things. Deal with it. "
Yes, they do. My point was that the value they attach to that cracker, or such an extremely tiny percentage of the hypothetical ashes, is extremely disproportionate.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 2:51 AM
The first time he has a catholic in his class and disputes a grade this is all going to come up and bite him and the college in the ass. Heck, the college is already talking to the attorney's. ....Where is the line of free speech and bigotry, what if he sues? what if future students sue? they WILL find the one post that was written "on duty" and he's gone.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 2:51 AM
kristen @ #2087 wins the thread for having the patience to deal with CW.
Posted by: Sandi's anus | July 25, 2008 2:52 AM
"Unfortunately, it will be at the expense of himself. Rather the unfortunate part is that this knucklehead did it when he has a family to take care of, I want you to all watch how a man lets his ego get ahead of his responsibilities to his wife and child."
Let's say for arguments sake PZ lost his job. You really think he'd be hard up for cash? LOL. He could just put out a book and it would FLY off the shelves.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 2:54 AM
Anon,
Nothing may be sacred, but some things are illegal.
Still, considering the very high proportion of Christians in US prisons, at least you can take some comfort in knowing that the guy who forces a broom handle in your ass while you take him in the mouth will probably be a brother-in-faith.
Posted by: Kel | July 25, 2008 2:55 AM
Wow, posting someone's personal details. It's not sacred, that's an invasion of privacy.
Posted by: kristen | July 25, 2008 2:55 AM
@2095, gdlchmst:
LOLZ. I just got here. Now that I'm reading over some of CW's other posts, I am beginning to realize I shouldn't have bothered. Thank you, though, I'm not sure I *want* this thread!
Maybe with some plum sauce and a side of suspicious-looking wafers... it could be good...
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 25, 2008 2:56 AM
#2076 Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 2:40 AM
Sometimes a person has to take a stand. Even if it is a small minority of Catholics sending death threats, molesting children, or other horrible things, these people need to be shown for what they are, publicly. If the Church tolerates these members and their actions (like William Donohue and his pogrom to harass, well, everyone) then the Church needs that light shone on it, too.
What PZ Myers did here shouldn't have any heroic value - in fact it shouldn't be necessary. But it is necessary. That's what is sad about this whole affair.
JBS
Posted by: Charlie Foxtrot | July 25, 2008 2:56 AM
Dear Anonn:
Yeah - we knew that. What's ya point?
Posted by: Cerebelle | July 25, 2008 2:57 AM
Let's stick to the post, guys.
Information about where PZ lives or how his daughter looks have nothing to do with the subject at hand. It's immature and childish.
Posted by: Rrr | July 25, 2008 2:57 AM
"He could just put out a book and it would FLY off the shelves."
Indeed, he has a talent for writing.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 2:58 AM
Funny how the PZ fanatics here will stultify logic itself to defend bigotry in much the same way catholics do.
You people are so unwilling to question your pet rockstar "science blogger" that you're forced to deny what's logically intuitive to almost anybody outside your blog cult, namely the following normative fact: humans place value, to varying degrees, on material objects and we should not go around trashing those objects because we find them empty of value.
You're reduced to the absurd response that, somehow, just somehow if you really think about it hard enough, the belief that a cracker is divine has harmed your day-to-day life. That all catholics are responsible for the sins of a subset of assholes within their religion. That all catholics MUST believe such-and-such and that therefore the entire religion is to be intolerantly bashed to oblivion.
This is beyond sloppy reasoning. It is decidedly INSANE people. Stop playing follow the leader and think for yourselves. What happened to speaking out against bigotry in whatever form, whether practiced by an atheist or a theist?
Face it, PZ screwed up on this one. Ignore the spectacle, think clearly, and focus on what's happened here: an act of bigotry.
Posted by: Rrr | July 25, 2008 3:00 AM
"Yeah - we knew that. What's ya point?"
Hidden threat, I'd assume. "WE KNOW WHERE YOUR MAILBOX LIVES! WE CAN CUT IT, CUT IT GOOOD! *swishes stiletto knife around*"
Posted by: Anonn | July 25, 2008 3:01 AM
It's not my cult shit bag. My point is that if as PZ says, "nothing is sacred" then NOTHING is sacred. If there are no limits, then there are NO limits. This stupid shit head launched nukes and now you want to claim some imagined high ground and complain about tactics? Please.
Paul & Mary Myers
300 College Ave
Morris, MN 56267
Oldest Son Alaric Myers, graduated from St. Cloud 9/07
Middle Son Connlann Myers
Daughter Skatje Myers Attending UMM
Data gleaned from public tax records and his own vanity web page.
http://homepage.mac.com/myers/
Posted by: M.G. | July 25, 2008 3:02 AM
Bravo PZ! Hooray for rationality!
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 3:02 AM
Dave, why have you, with all your years of experience in the 'real world', still not managed to work out what an apostrophe is for?
Here's a hint: plural of attorney is attorneys. If the real world hasn't provided you with that much knowledge perhaps you should go back to college - or have you never been? That would explain the hostility and anti-intellectualism.
Care to cite your source for your claim that that's what UM is doing?
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 25, 2008 3:04 AM
At this point in time, it is entirely safe to say that CW is officially tl;dr.
Posted by: Tabby Lavalamp | July 25, 2008 3:05 AM
CW, you win. I gave thinking for myself a try, and came to the inescapable conclusion that you are a complete and utter tool.
Posted by: I am me | July 25, 2008 3:07 AM
CW...
Your ability to completely and utterly miss the point is almost superhuman.
You're like the bizarro-superman of the debating world.
Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 3:07 AM
# 2100
please read earlier post-there is no room in the world for idealist
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 25, 2008 3:08 AM
Bob Smith,
Actually, I think this professor is just a sick, sick man, filled with nothing but hate. No, he does not live by the golden rule.
Ah yes, The Golden Rule...
He who has the gold (and the FABULOUS red Prada shoes) makes the rules.
At least according to the Catholic Church.
I tell you what. My favorite crackers are whole wheat Ritz. I hereby declare, with all the powers invested in me by me, that all whole wheat Ritz crackers are my body. rAmen.
Go desecrate some me.
See if I care.
Posted by: Cracker Jack | July 25, 2008 3:10 AM
The Big Bang theory that the universe originated in an extremely dense and hot space and expanded was developed by a Belgian priest.
It's interesting to note that those people, the first scientists, were all monks, they were all clerics!
People today aren't even aware of this fact!
Here are some examples of scientists who were Catholic clergy:
1. Mendel, a monk, first established the laws of heredity, which gave the final blow to the theory of natural selection.
2. Copernicus, a priest, expounded the Copernican system.
3. Steensen, a Bishop, was the father of geology.
4. Regiomontanus, a Bishop and Papal astronomer; was the father of modern astronomy.
5. Theodoric, a Bishop, discovered anesthesia in the 13th century.
6. Kircher, a priest, made the first definite statement of the germ theory of disease.
7. Cassiodorus, a priest, invented the watch.
8. Picard, a priest, was the first to measure accurately a degree of the meridian.
The conflict between evolutionary science and creationism in the United States comes from the Protestant tradition, not the Catholic one, he said.
American Catholicism is in a Protestant culture," he said. "We borrow a lot of our attitudes, along with a lot of our hymns, and not always the best of either.
Unfortunate, but true.
List of Catholic Scientists
Algue, a priest, invented the barocyclonometer, to detect approach of cyclones.
Ampere was founder of the science of electrodynamics, and investigator of the laws of electro-magnetism.
Becquerel, Antoine Cesar, was the founder of electro-chemistry.
Becquerel, Antoine Henri, was the discoverer of radio-activity.
Binet, mathematician and astronomer, set forth the principle, "Binet's Theorem."
Braille invented the Braille system for the blind.
Buffon wrote the first work on natural history.
Carrell, Nobel prize winner in medicine and physiology, is renowned for his work in surgical technique.
Caesalpinus, a Papal physician, was the first to construct a system of botany.
Cassiodorus, a priest, invented the watch.
Columbo discovered the pulmonary circulation of the blood.
Copernicus, a priest, expounded the Copernican system.
Coulomb established the fundamental laws of static electricity.
De Chauliac, a Papal physician, was the father of modern surgery and hospitals.
De Vico, a priest, discovered six comets. Descartes founded analytical geometry.
Dumas invented a method of ascertaining vapor densities.
Endlicher, botanist and historian, established a new system of classifying plants.
Eustachius, for whom the Eustachian tube was named, was one of the founders of modern anatomy.
Fabricius discovered the valvular system of the veins.
Fallopius, for whom the Fallopian tube was named, was an eminent physiologist.
Fizeau was the first to determine experimentally the velocity of light.
Foucault invented the first practical electric arc lamp; he refuted the corpuscular theory of light; he invented the gyroscope.
Fraunhofer was initiator of spectrum analysis; he established laws of diffraction.
Fresnel contributed more to the science of optics than any other man.
Galilei, a great astronomer, is the father of experimental science.
Galvani, one of the pioneers of electricity, was also an anatomist and physiologist.
Gioja, father of scientific navigation, invented the mariner's compass.
Gramme invented the Gramme dynamo.
Guttenberg invented printing.
Herzog discovered a cure for infantile paralysis.
Holland invented the first practical sub marine.
Kircher, a priest, made the first definite statement of the germ theory of disease.
Laennec invented the stethoscope.
Lancist, a Papal physician, was the father of clinical medicine.
Latreille was pioneer in entomology.
Lavoisier is called Father of Modern Chemistry.
Leverrier discovered the planet Neptune.
Lully is said to have been the first to employ chemical symbols.
Malpighi, a Papal physician, was a botanist, and the father of comparative physiology.
Marconi's place in radio is unsurpassed. Mariotte discovered Mariotte's law of gases.
Mendel, a monk, first established the laws of heredity, which gave the final blow to the theory of natural selection.
Morgagni, founder of modern pathology; made important studies in aneurisms.
Muller was the greatest biologist of the 19th century, founder of modern physiology.
Pashcal demonstrated practically that a column of air has weight.
Pasteur, called the "Father of Bacteriology," and inventor of bio-therapeutics, was the leading scientist of the 19th century.
Picard, a priest, was the first to measure accurately a degree of the meridian.
Regiomontanus, a Bishop and Papal astronomer; was the father of modern astronomy.
Scheiner, a priest, invented the pantograph, and made a telescope that permitted the first systematic investigation of sun spots.
Secchi invented the meteorograph. Steensen, a Bishop, was the father of geology.
Theodoric, a Bishop, discovered anesthesia in the 13th century.
Torricelli invented the barometer.
Vesalius was the founder of modern anatomical science.
Volta invented the first; complete galvanic battery; the "volt" is named after him.
Other scientists: Agricola, Albertus Magnus, Bacon, Bartholomeus, Bayma, Beccaria, Behalm, Bernard, Biondo, Biot, Bolzano, Borrus, Boscovitch, Bosio, Bourgeois, Branly, Caldani, Cambou, Camel, Cardan, Carnoy, Cassini, Cauchy, Cavaliere, Caxton, Champollion, Chevreul, Clavius, De Rossi, Divisch, Dulong, Dwight, Eckhel, Epee, Fabre, Fabri, Faye, Ferrari, Gassendi, Gay-Lussac, Gordon, Grimaldi, Hauy, Heis, Helmont, Hengler, Heude, Hilgard, Jussieu, Kelly, Lamarck, Laplace, Linacre, Malus, Mersenne, Monge, Muller, Murphy, Murray, Nelston, Nieuwland, Nobili, Nollet, Ortelius, Ozaman, Pelouze, Piazzi, Pitra, Plumier, Pouget, Provancher, Regnault, Riccioli, Sahagun, Santorini, Schwann, Schwarz, Secchi, Semmelweis, Spallanzani, Takamine, Tieffentaller, Toscanelli, Tulasne, Valentine, Vernier, Vieta, Da Vinci, Waldseemuller, Wincklemann, Windle, and a host of others, too many to mention.
CRACKERS RULE!
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 3:11 AM
"But don't try to call it "bigoted." It really isn't."
I'm sorry you're incapable of recognizing common bigotry. Do continue abusing language and twisting logic to justify your stubbornness. It's entertaining to watch pseudo-skeptics such as yourself reveal how credulous you actually are when playing the apologist for PZ.
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 25, 2008 3:11 AM
You are amoral. Just because someone states that nothing is sacred, it doesn't mean nothing is wrong. But you appear to believe that nothing is wrong, hence you are amoral.
You do know that PZ has the IP you used to post each and every one of these. Yes the information is available on public databases, but it's still wrong to post it - especially details about his children, grown or otherwise.
But if you don't get that, and don't really understand the point about what "Nothing is sacred" means - then you might as well be one of the idiots that accosted Webster Cook and sent him death threats, and all the death threats sent to PZ Myers.
I'm sorry to have encountered someone like you, even virtually. You make me sad for humanity.
JBS
Posted by: Rrr | July 25, 2008 3:12 AM
Go desecrate some me.
With delicious cheese. And maybe a slice of grape.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 3:13 AM
Anon does have a point. And if PZ put those details up on the net then he's probably not too bothered about people seeing them.
It doesn't mean he's not a turd, though.
Posted by: fabrulana | July 25, 2008 3:14 AM
Thank god... or maybe not.
Posted by: Anonn | July 25, 2008 3:15 AM
"Nothing may be sacred, but some things are illegal. "
Then I'll look forward to sharing a cell with PZ as he was the one to post his children's info with pictures. When one is preparing to launch an attack against 800 Million people, it's wise to review one's exposure. PZ has fucked his own family.
http://homepage.mac.com/myers/
Posted by: Charlie Foxtrot | July 25, 2008 3:15 AM
(Might just clarify I was responding to posts 2081 and 2083)
So, Anon - your balls dropped yet? Still posting from the cubby-house in the basement?
Posted by: kristen (+too much frap) | July 25, 2008 3:15 AM
@CW #2104 (yes, ladies and gentlemen, I'm a martyr):
First of all, PZ is far from my pet rockstar science blogger. Sometimes what he says and does frustrates me, because I am often inclined to be gentle with and diplomatic towards religious people... this is just my approach and I really think it has everything to do with personality. That being said, I think that what PZ does here is important and helps the free-thinking cause.
Second of all, I don't think the host harms my day-to-day life at all. In fact, I used to eat them all the time when I was a practicing Roman Catholic. But, then, in grade 7, a priest told me and my classmates in mass that we shouldn't be accepting communion if we didn't believe in the Resurrection. This was the first time I was actually called upon to think about it (how ironic that a priest called on me to do it)... and after thinking about it seriously, I stopped going to mass. At first I did it out of respect for the faith... if I didn't believe it, then I shouldn't be standing in church pretending to... but then later I decided that it was also about intellectual integrity. I had to act in a way that reflected not what I BELIEVED... but what I THOUGHT.
Anyway, the point is, that many of my close family and friends worship a cracker does not harm me (though it confuses me). What does harm me is when the same kind of dogmatic thought that compels them to worship a cracker compels them to political action, or social action, that I think is harmful to a just and free society. It harms me when these people refuse to be argued with because their ideas are sacred and beyond reason.
The religion shouldn't be bashed into oblivion. It should be reasoned and ARGUED into oblivion. That can't happen if we aren't allowed to criticize it.
Posted by: Alex | July 25, 2008 3:16 AM
inbeforethreadislocked
Poor cracker. D:
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 25, 2008 3:16 AM
#2112 Posted by: dave | July 25, 2008 3:07 AM
Which is precisely why it needs one, or several. You've heard of several of them, I'm sure. We have holidays named for them.
JBS
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 3:16 AM
Easy ppl,Im sure PZ will know what to do with Anon's IP address.
I hear the mentally ill dont do well in US prisons.
Posted by: TonyT | July 25, 2008 3:19 AM
Wowbagger,
I really do enjoy your postings!
Posted by: Erwin Blonk | July 25, 2008 3:21 AM
#2114
"It's interesting to note that those people, the first scientists, were all monks, they were all clerics!"
For a long time it was very hard to do any scientific study outside catholicism because education was largely organised by the catholic church. Those were the practical circumstances.
Also, clerics would be the people that had food and shelter provided for them, so they had time (and means) for such studies.
This is just a description of circumstances and in no way a negative or positive comment on the catholic church. It is just how it was.
Posted by: Rrr | July 25, 2008 3:22 AM
Poor cracker. D:
Feh. Several tons of real food (produce) gets thrown away on a daily basis. Now that's sad.
Posted by: Trin | July 25, 2008 3:23 AM
If you look real close you can kind of see Jesus' face on that banana peel. He doesn't look happy.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 3:23 AM
Anon, PZ's address really isn't sacred, neither is his life. But it is socially injurious to kill him. That, and it makes you a murdering scum, you fatwa-envying sociopath.
Posted by: Cracker Joe | July 25, 2008 3:25 AM
Reminder:
I gotta buy myself one of those fancy t-shirts with "Jesus is a cunt".
Posted by: Cerebelle | July 25, 2008 3:25 AM
Anonn wins the prize for not being able to read properly. Bravo!
Posted by: Anon | July 25, 2008 3:26 AM
"You do know that PZ has the IP you used to post each and every one of these. "
Yes, I do. Here, you can have it too.
70.7.120.67 Sprint Cellular
If I were you, I would call sprint first thing in the morning and demand to know who was using this IP Adress at 12:23 AM Mountain Standard Time. That should be easy.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 3:26 AM
If he's upset the whole of catholicism, why hasn't the pope said anything?
Maybe because the only people upset by this are a whackjob minority who have been begging for an excuse to prove how vile they are.
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 25, 2008 3:30 AM
CW, Insane? We aren't the ones who hear voices and fear for the well being of a cracker.
A cracker, and not even a very nutritive one.
The point here is that you and your ilk threatened a young man who was curious about one of those magic crackers.
PZ brought the rational world's attention to this, and following closely behind, the completely nutters irrational world who believes that Jesus can be injured via voodoo on a cracker. Some omnipotence there. Perhaps omnimpotence.
The nutters rapidly began attacking him, and the nuttiest threatened him (as anon does above). Anon, you know your IP address is being logged, so you aren't exactly anonymous. Dave, pray all you want. It never accomplished anything before, so enjoy your waste of time.
But as Jeremy pointed out, you are a bigot for eating cattle. How can you do that when cows are sacred to Hindus. I bet you have even played some football. Handling a dead pig is a capital crime in Judaism and Islam.
Posted by: gdlchmst | July 25, 2008 3:31 AM
kristen @ #2122, again, well said. Even though I tend to be on the other end of the personality spectrum.
Posted by: joe cracker | July 25, 2008 3:32 AM
Anon reminds me of those "fine" German catholics, the Nazis.
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 25, 2008 3:33 AM
#2133
I'll leave that to PZ if he feels like chasing the lead. I just wanted to see your reaction. It is an interesting one.
JBS
Posted by: Yetti | July 25, 2008 3:34 AM
Kiss your job goodbye, moron. And you are a moron given elsewhere you've posted pictures of your wife, kids, and HOME. The Muslims will find you. Try not to act surprised if and when they do.
Posted by: Dancaban | July 25, 2008 3:36 AM
Looks like you've dug the one of the all time great internet elephant traps and the lemmimgs are pouring themselves in oblivious to the spectacle they are creating.
Congratulations!!!
Posted by: Snark | July 25, 2008 3:38 AM
The nazis and the christians again... Today it's 75 years, since the "Gesetz zur Verhütung erbkranken Nachwuchses" was proclaimed. Thats what's normally meant with "Eugenics in the third reich". It was the basis for the sterilisation of about 400.000 people, mostly with disabilities, like e.g. deafness, in the name of the "Volksgesundheit".
Well. The christian churches protested. But interestingly, they didn't protest against the inhumanity etc. Nope. They protested, because NOW the sterilized people could have sex without regard for the consequences! The german bishops stated: „Die Vertreter des Episkopats machten [...] darauf aufmerksam, daß mit der Durchführung des Gesetzes für die private und öffentliche Sittlichkeit große Gefahren sich ergeben; denn die sterilisierten Männer und Frauen können sich nun ihrem Geschlechtsleben hemmungslos überlassen, da ja aus dem Verkehr keine Nachkommen entstehen. Von Seiten der Regierung wurden hier Schutzmaßnahmen [!] zugesagt."
Well, there's a lot of disgusting details more. Whats perfectly clear, is that the common canard of "christians opressed/opposed to Nazis" is absolutely wrong.
For those of you, who can read german, have a look at:
http://hpd.de/node/5092
and
http://hpd.de/node/5093
Posted by: kristen | July 25, 2008 3:39 AM
#2139 "The Muslims will find you"
ROTFL. Muslims: Yetti's boogymen.
THEY'RE UNDER YOUR BED, YETTI! RUN FOR YOUR SWEET LIFE!
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 3:39 AM
TonyT, #2126
Thanks - but you want to be careful CW doesn't assault you for being a 'mindless, bigoted Wowbagger drone' - since, according to him, the only way one can voice one's opinion is if one disagrees with something.
But that's it for me for the moment. Night all!
Posted by: Gordon S | July 25, 2008 3:39 AM
Wow, posting personal address and family associations with the implicit purpose of encouraging violent retaliation.
Nice, Catholics.
Nice.
Posted by: joe cracker | July 25, 2008 3:41 AM
Yetti, given all the threats/hate spewed by all the Catholic lunatics, I'd be more concerned about them.
They just proved that they are no better than those lunatic cartoon-hating Muslims.
Posted by: CW | July 25, 2008 3:41 AM
"I gave thinking for myself a try, and came to the inescapable conclusion that you are a complete and utter tool."
Apparently "thinking for yourself" means leaving common principles of toleration aside and rushing to uncritically accept whatever PZ says or does; in other words, not thinking for yourself at all.
Right, I'm an "utter tool" and a "bizarro-superman" (whatever exactly that means) for standing up for human decency and refusing to support bigotry in whatever form, be it atheism or theism. I'm an "utter tool" for resisting the propaganda burped up by a dogmatic, irrational, bigoted fuckwit (PZ) and thinking independently. Right.
Continue following your leader. And goodnight.
Posted by: Tyler DiPietro | July 25, 2008 3:41 AM
Heh, heh, yeah PZ, it's gonna be the MOOOOSLIMS who fuck you and your whole family up, not us! We're not raving psychopaths who will commit heinous violence in the name of a flavorless culinary item! I'm not just projecting my fantasies onto others!
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 25, 2008 3:43 AM
Watch out everyone! Any second now, doves, angels and butterflies will burst forth from the trash can! Keep watching the image above to see it happen!
----
Yetti, maybe you missed the part where PZ pointed out that no muslims had threatened him or sent him hate mail...
You clinic bombing, doctor shooting, pedophile protecting Catholics are the real danger.
Posted by: Jon Isacson | July 25, 2008 3:43 AM
I wish I could buy you a beer PZ. I will drink a tost to this tonight.
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 3:43 AM
Indeed Anon, we should all emulate the moral superiority you've shown.
Posted by: Jennie | July 25, 2008 3:43 AM
Anon: Save yourself the effort and call 1800flowers to send death threats..
Posted by: TheVirginian | July 25, 2008 3:44 AM
If anyone is interested, here is what the Fourth Lateran Council said on one subject:
"A difference of dress distinguishes Jews or Saracens from Christians in some provinces, but in others a certain confusion has developed so that they are indistinguishable. Whence it sometimes happens that by mistake Christians join with Jewish or Saracen women, and Jews or Saracens with christian women." This was why Jews and Muslims were ordered to wear distinctive apparel.
It says a lot about Christian mores in the Middle Ages that so many people were having sex with anonymous partners, whose religion they did not know. Considering that most communities were fairly small in those days, it would be difficult not to know people's backgrounds. So there must have been a lot of travelers getting it on with the locals, and people from the countryside mingling with city folk, all fornicating merrily away with strangers.
Posted by: TheVirginian | July 25, 2008 3:45 AM
If anyone is interested, here is what the Fourth Lateran Council said on one subject:
"A difference of dress distinguishes Jews or Saracens from Christians in some provinces, but in others a certain confusion has developed so that they are indistinguishable. Whence it sometimes happens that by mistake Christians join with Jewish or Saracen women, and Jews or Saracens with christian women." This was why Jews and Muslims were ordered to wear distinctive apparel.
It says a lot about Christian mores in the Middle Ages that so many people were having sex with anonymous partners, whose religion they did not know. Considering that most communities were fairly small in those days, it would be difficult not to know people's backgrounds. So there must have been a lot of travelers getting it on with the locals, and people from the countryside mingling with city folk, all fornicating merrily away with strangers.
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 3:50 AM
Am i the only one here,is it because Im an ex-catholic(til the age of 8 or so anyway),am I naive?
I just cannot believe that what we are seeing and hearing in the comments is the best that catholics can do? Please tell me its the fault of the Internet,the relative anonymity and protection it gives people?
Dont tell me 95% of all catholics are mentally ill or suffer from severe cognitive dissonance,from utter lack of moral integrity,a total inability to compute any concept outside their belief system,a profound lack of intelligence,and a tendency towards violence ,uncontrolled rage,hate and murder?
It is certainly looking that way.
Posted by: Robster, FCD | July 25, 2008 3:52 AM
CW,
I'm an "utter tool" for resisting the propaganda burped up by a dogmatic, irrational, bigoted fuckwit (PZ) and thinking independently. Right.
Ummm, no, you are an "utter tool" for not resisting the propaganda burped up by a dogmatic, irrational, bigoted fuckwit (Donahue) or fuckwits (the Catholic church).
G'night, tool.
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 3:55 AM
CW, when will you confront the fact that people value things for a reason, and many of those reasons are false? You are not a muslim and thus the Koran hold no importance for you. The same delusion is made by you. You have conveniently ignored every post pointing to this fact and instead have simply repeated your own bile filled claims.
Posted by: kristen | July 25, 2008 3:58 AM
@2154:
no, clinteas, as an ex-Catholic, and someone who still has close contact with the faith, I'd say that these psychopaths are not representative of the Catholics I know.
Most Catholics I know (though I have no way of knowing if THESE people are representative of the faith in general) wouldn't care if PZ messed up one of their crackers. They'd probably be puzzled why he'd bother, and amazed that we're all up so late talking about it... but they wouldn't care. That's because the Catholics I know are progressive in the sense that they look at the Bible and the rituals symbolically. They vote pro-choice and (Canadian) liberal. If pressed on the matter, though, they'd probably admit they aren't the "best" Catholics. So really, maybe I don't know Catholics at all.
Posted by: Susan | July 25, 2008 3:58 AM
Good job, PZ. The "unconcerned contempt" they deserve, indeed. As someone who survived a Catholic childhood relatively unscathed and jumped to the atheist ship as soon as I had any agency, I can unequivocally say that the crazy the Catholics (and other religious nuts) have demonstrated over this incident is exactly the kind of wackaloonery that helped me see the light. I am very hopeful many, many young folks are raptly watching this scene unfold and similarly having their own epiphanies. Cracker-love is so self-evidently moronic, and the over-reaction completely illustrative of the hypocritical "faithful." Brotherly love, IRL.
Posted by: DGS | July 25, 2008 4:02 AM
Let me see if I have this right.
You do something for the sole purpose of pissing off Catholics and then act amazed at your success. You do something gratuitously evil in our eyes and then have the hubris to try to claim victimhood. Then you juxtapose that with an admission that you are in fact a third rate intellect.
Wow. What else is there to say, really?
Posted by: John B. Sandlin | July 25, 2008 4:05 AM
#2159 Posted by: DGS | July 25, 2008 4:02 AM
How about "Last one out, turn off the lights."
JBS
Posted by: Raiko | July 25, 2008 4:06 AM
The God delusion + Koran + cracker! That was awesome and cunning. Nobody can blame you now for just doing evil to religious symbols and the best part is, that atheists don't care about symbols to begin with. I would love to hear the reaction of Richard Dawkins. I can imagine him being quite amused by this.
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 4:06 AM
DGS,
yawn,blahblahblah,yawn.
//What else is there to say, really?//
Nothing,go home.I pray for you.
Posted by: Raiko | July 25, 2008 4:07 AM
The God delusion + Koran + cracker! That was awesome and cunning. Nobody can blame you now for just doing evil to religious symbols and the best part is, that atheists don't care about symbols to begin with. I would love to hear the reaction of Richard Dawkins. I can imagine him being quite amused by this.
Posted by: BobC | July 25, 2008 4:09 AM
I've been thinking the same thing. I bet there might be hundreds of young Catholics who are watching the idiocy of the Catholic extremists, and wondering why they are wasting their lives believing in a medieval death cult.
Posted by: Tabby Lavalamp | July 25, 2008 4:09 AM
[quote]"I gave thinking for myself a try, and came to the inescapable conclusion that you are a complete and utter tool."
Apparently "thinking for yourself" means leaving common principles of toleration aside and rushing to uncritically accept whatever PZ says or does; in other words, not thinking for yourself at all.
Right, I'm an "utter tool" and a "bizarro-superman" (whatever exactly that means) for standing up for human decency and refusing to support bigotry in whatever form, be it atheism or theism. I'm an "utter tool" for resisting the propaganda burped up by a dogmatic, irrational, bigoted fuckwit (PZ) and thinking independently. Right.
Continue following your leader. And goodnight.
Posted by: CW[/quote]
No, you're an utter tool because you've been doing nothing but acting like an utter tool who's done nothing but respond with personal attacks against people who didn't personally attack you in the first place. My first response to you didn't contain a single insult, but the same can't be said when you replied by calling me a "pseudo-skeptic" amongst other things. I disagreed with you, and your reaction was to go after me personally.
That's why you're an utter tool.
You tried to paint the anti-gay, anti-choice elements of the Catholic church as a lunatic fringe, and when it's pointed out that it's the official stance of the church espoused by the leadership, particularly the pope, you completely ignore it and continue portraying the anti-gay, anti-choice sentiment as being held by the minority.
That's why you're an utter tool.
You can't seem to accept that anyone who agrees with Prof. Myers came to that agreement through their own volition, and the only possible result of thinking for oneself is to disagree with him, agree with you, and label him a bigot.
That's why you're an egotistical utter tool.
Let me assure you that as a pro-choice, pro-GLBT rights, pro-sex education, pro-safe and consensual sex liberal atheist feminist, I've had issues with Catholicism well before I ever heard of PZ Myers. I've had no respect for a religion that has no respect for me for a long, long time.
So yes, I know this is hard for your obviously engorged ego to take, but it's quite possible for people to think for themselves and completely disagree with you and to agree with Prof. Myers to whatever degree they do. Being nice and respectful to religion hasn't worked, things are only getting worse. It's time to stand up and point out the ridiculousness of their beliefs.
Finally, you attacked me before I responded in kind, so is that the human decency you're standing up for?
That's why you're a hypocrite in addition to being a complete and utter tool.
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 4:10 AM
Amazing. You're wrong before you even finished you're first thought. Read up. This is a reaction to the violent threats made by your coreligionists.
Posted by: Jennie | July 25, 2008 4:10 AM
RE: DGS post #2159
"Let me see if I have this right.
You do something for the sole purpose of pissing off Catholics"
UGH!! pay attention!! You have it wrong! He didn't do it just to piss the Catholics off, this all began in the defense of a student name Webster Cook.
Are Catholics illiterate?!
Posted by: Tabby Lavalamp | July 25, 2008 4:12 AM
Damn it, my point would be more effective if I could get the hang around block quoting around here. :D
Posted by: Anonn=Sociopath? | July 25, 2008 4:13 AM
Anonn: If you learned that you guided a murderer to his family, how could you live with the guilt? How could you live with their blood on your conscience? Don't you have even a shred of humanity left?
Posted by: Jennie | July 25, 2008 4:13 AM
RE: Michael X post #2166
Damn you're fast ;)
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 4:13 AM
@ 2165:
//Let me assure you that as a pro-choice, pro-GLBT rights, pro-sex education, pro-safe and consensual sex liberal atheist feminist, I've had issues with Catholicism well before I ever heard of PZ Myers//
No way !!!
You sound like great fun,are you on facebook ? LOL
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 4:14 AM
Oy, I've committed the your/you're crime. It is apparently time to retire. If only our catholic commenters held to such standards...
Posted by: Stewy | July 25, 2008 4:15 AM
I hope the universe kills you slowly for the desecration of our LORD Dawkins' greatest work.
Actually maybe I'll come and stab you with a rusty nail heathen! Dawkins hater! GRRR...
Posted by: Cerebelle | July 25, 2008 4:15 AM
Okay--DGS also wins the prize for inability to read properly! Double bravo!
Posted by: Tucker | July 25, 2008 4:19 AM
I'm such a psychic. That was epic.
Posted by: Michael X | July 25, 2008 4:20 AM
Too much practice. I'm not sure if this is a good thing...
Posted by: paxtecum | July 25, 2008 4:20 AM
To those who believe, no explanation is necessary.
To those who don't believe, no explanation is sufficient.
Faith is a sacred personal gift- not earned nor merited; need not be forced nor to be proven. Likewise for those without faith or take faith as being unnecessary.
By their fruits, they shall be known. Peace to all.
Posted by: Mark Pentecost | July 25, 2008 4:21 AM
"Nothing must be held sacred. Question everything. God is not great, Jesus is not your lord, you are not disciples of any charismatic prophet. You are all human beings who must make your way through your life by thinking and learning, and you have the job of advancing humanity's knowledge by winnowing out the errors of past generations and finding deeper understanding of reality. You will not find wisdom in rituals and sacraments and dogma, which build only self-satisfied ignorance, but you can find truth by looking at your world with fresh eyes and a questioning mind."
THAT is fantastic! If only more people thought that way.
Posted by: Monad | July 25, 2008 4:21 AM
Just have to post in this epic thread - well done PZ you have my full support.
To the people saying "Nothing is sacred" means it's OK to post someone's personal details or blow stuff up, do learn to read properly and to understand the finer nuances of language. "Nothing is sacred" does not equal "do anything you want because nothing matters". Typical xtian straw man re atheism (as well as being cowardly and malicious).
Posted by: Jennie | July 25, 2008 4:22 AM
I have fruits?! mmmmmmm
Posted by: J_w23 | July 25, 2008 4:22 AM
Okay, it's just a cracker, and PZ just nailed it... :P
Posted by: Supernatur(less) | July 25, 2008 4:23 AM
Great post P.Z.
No beliefs are sacred indeed. We should question everything we think and do. It's the only way to keep moving forward with our lives. While we try to live our lives and do the right things according to our unique situations and circumstances, we find that no person or book contains the answers we need. Yet, most people seek truth in antiquated books and dogma.
Sadly, X% of all knowledge and truth will stay beyond our grasp, especially when we cling tightly to silly beliefs without question. However, I keep moving forward by feeling my way through the darkness* as the rest of (religious) humanity huddles by their tiny fires of faith. I might not have the comfort of inanity to warm me, but the answers I find with my own hands are worth it.
P.Z. when will you write some books?
Posted by: Chris Balambao | July 25, 2008 4:23 AM
Well this was the highlight of my day. Thanks PZ. I will pray for your immortal soul, I just hope the Flying Spaghetti Monster hears it :P
Posted by: TonyT | July 25, 2008 4:24 AM
For a third rate intellect, he's sure getting a lot of attention, including yours DGS.
I look at the flat fact that his blog is very successful for what it was set out to do. Right now I see that there are 2164 comments on this posting alone in less than 24 hours. That's exceptional! It's a Bloggers dream to get as much attention as he does. Kudos for PZ, he's earned it!
So really, saying he's third rate is just name calling, isn't it?
Are Catholics even suppose to call people names? What about "turn the other cheek"? I think that was one of the lines that Jesus said.
If you really believed in Jesus, wouldn't you be following in his footsteps?
Posted by: DUG853 | July 25, 2008 4:30 AM
Congrats, however, I was personally hoping for some video of the 'actual' (so-called) "desecration"..... LOL-?
Posted by: Cerebelle | July 25, 2008 4:33 AM
"To the people saying "Nothing is sacred" means it's OK to post someone's personal details or blow stuff up, do learn to read properly and to understand the finer nuances of language. "Nothing is sacred" does not equal "do anything you want because nothing matters". Typical xtian straw man re atheism (as well as being cowardly and malicious)."
Quoting this because it deserves to be repeated.
Posted by: DingoDave | July 25, 2008 4:39 AM
Posted by: CW #1918
"So someone's hand being grabbed by a senior citizen is now "physical assault". Great logic there."
It would be classed as such in my country, and I would imagine that charges could legitimately be laid against her in a court of law. Especially considering the fact that she refused to unhand him (pardon the pun) after repeated requests to do so.
And how do you know that the assailant was a senior citizen?
Posted by: andrew | July 25, 2008 4:41 AM
Well said, PZ.
Posted by: gods cousin betty | July 25, 2008 4:41 AM
Most religious people don't understand peace and leaving people alone - everyone has their opinions, so be it, let them be.
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 4:42 AM
He was grabbed by a nun DD,I guess that would seem to imply a senior citizen LOL
Posted by: Rrr | July 25, 2008 4:46 AM
"If you really believed in Jesus, wouldn't you be following in his footsteps?"
That reminds me of this E2 node:
from http://everything2.com/e2node/Beware%2520of%2520finding%2520a%2520Jesus%2520entirely%2520congenial%2520to%2520you
Posted by: DingoDave | July 25, 2008 4:48 AM
Richard Dawkins wrote in comment #954:
"Congratulations, PZ, on an eloquent gesture. And thank you for including the pages from The God Delusion. It's only a book.
If I had any doubts about the rightness of what you did, they were dispelled by reading the fatuous, pathetic, ignominious, abjectly stupid protests of Catholics writing in protest. Either they really believe the wafer is Jesus, in which case they are idiots. Or they don't, in which case they are hypocritical hysterics. Either way, they deserve to be insulted. Congratulations on doing so.
Bravo PZ.
Richard"
Posted by: Richard Dawkins | July 24, 2008 5:53 PM
Posted by: IngoB | July 25, 2008 4:48 AM
Re Kevin @ #1478:
You are really missing the whole point of my analogy, which assigned little importance to its precise mapping (actually: art critic -> Prof. Myers, parents -> Catholics, three-year-old -> Christ, drawing -> consecrated host). The point was to set up a situation where acting on an "objective" judgment about something is clearly morally wrong, since other people and their attachment to the matter were being ignored. You do not merely live in a world of facts, but also in a world of people.
Re Ignignockt @ #1559:
You counter my argument by claiming that Prof. Myers' deed has the redeeming feature of making Catholics aware of their failures. But even if we accept that Catholics value a wafer higher than a person (which is nonsense), Prof. Myers' deed will certainly not change that for the better. It really has no educational value whatsoever - people do not learn from you if you spit in their faces. That's elementary psychology of which Prof. Myers as an educator is hopefully aware.
Re dinkum @ #1651:
As is obvious from what I wrote, whether the the host was consecrated or not can be objectively determined by knowing its history, not its present state. Give me the history, and I will give you your answer.
Re DingoDave @ #1724:
Fair enough, that was over the top. Certainly the social orders in Western Europe and the USA won't get disturbed by this, even if Prof. Myers gets a lot more publicity than I think likely. Most people simply won't give a damn. My other point remains though, this was still pointlessly offensive to a good many people. It will do nothing but harm.
Re DingoDave @ #1834:
I'm somewhat curious why you think I should defend those verses from the Qur'an. The original expansion of Islam destroyed the Christian regions in North Africa and occupied our Orthodox brethren, not atheists. Furthermore, Charles "The Hammer" Martel and Don Juan de Austria of Lepanto, who saved you from being a Muslim now, were both Catholics, not atheists. We are still waiting for some major atheist defense of Western culture, unless you are counting the Gulags as such?
That you cannot imagine any intermediate social arrangement between (religious) tyranny and total laissez faire is sad, but I guess characteristic. Nevertheless, the most basic considerations of respect and empathy, as are quite common in secular humanism, should be sufficient to see Prof. Myers' deed as anti-social.
Posted by: Jim1138 | July 25, 2008 4:49 AM
Steinn Sigurðsson feeds Host to DUCKS! Are they now Consecrated Quackers? (C) CanuckRob
Posted by: Jim1138 | July 25, 2008 4:57 AM
IngoB: Can't you test a wafer to see if it's consecrated by stabbing it or something to see if it bleeds? Maybe they hold a static charge? If you peed on one, would you get a shock?
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 5:00 AM
IngoB @ 2193 :
//Furthermore, Charles "The Hammer" Martel and Don Juan de Austria of Lepanto, who saved you from being a Muslim now//
Hold it right there !
Is that your way of admitting that man is really born atheist and then subsequently indoctrinated to adopt the religious belief that is prevalent in the society he is brought up in?
That there is no such thing as the one true god,that which god you believe in just depends on where you are born?
That if Don Juan had had a bad day in the saddle,you would now be fervently believing in Allah as the one true god,and think of all the heathen christians as unbelievers who need to be exterminated?
Oh,that was only an oopsie,lil slip of the tongue there?Didnt mean it to sound like that?
Yeah,didnt think so.....
Posted by: black wolf | July 25, 2008 5:07 AM
IngoB,
the people you mention as defenders of Western culture defended Christian Europe from people who believed in different nonsense than they did. Their descendants are the ones brave fighters for enlightenment wrestled Europe from, rediscovering the writings of pre-Christian philosophy and democratic concepts of policy. That what you call Western culture came into existence because people shook off Christian oppression and dogma, a freedom Christian powermongers fought tooth and nail. Otherwise we'd still be living in walled city states, defending our freedom against the mercenaries and fanaticized faithful lead by their lord bishops.
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 5:08 AM
I read Clarissa's short rant with awe.
She has become what makes her little wasteful existence bearable,a hateful bigot.
Posted by: black wolf | July 25, 2008 5:14 AM
wow, 3000 posts and going. this is... I don't know what to call it.
Posted by: black wolf | July 25, 2008 5:15 AM
ummm, what? 2200 I meant to say. I'm a tad bit tired. ;)
Posted by: Sven | July 25, 2008 5:24 AM
Nice one, PZ. I was hoping you'd pick The God Delusion as a third target.
Posted by: DiscoveredJoys | July 25, 2008 5:30 AM
Surely you can't kidnap a god who is omni-present, anymore that you can cause any more harm by nailing a consecrated host (aka cracker) rather than a piece of wood ?
How can you confine an omni-present god any more thoroughly to a specific object by using a magic incantation?
It seems to me that the godstruck are caught up in a pagan view of the world, artfully tricked out with Christian Chrome.
Posted by: melior | July 25, 2008 5:34 AM
Ingob said:
I find it fascinating that this holier-than-thou Christian's rationalization for blaming PZ for receiving death threats is identical to the one used by Muslims excusing the rape of a woman who was not wearing a burka: "But but but she provoked their uncontrollable feelings!"
Posted by: Dafmeister | July 25, 2008 5:45 AM
I really hope Dawkins knows about the fate of his book - I suspect he'll be laughing clear through the weekend.
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 5:47 AM
Dafmeister,
see @ No 954
Posted by: Philip1978 | July 25, 2008 5:58 AM
Bravo Professor Myers, that was both an informative post but also very funny.
I find it funny that despite all of the prayers directed at keeping this cracker intact, Yahweh (the god formerly known as Elorhim!) did NOT intervene AGAIN to save his son - what a bastard!
Or was it just a cracker and God does not exist...oh the torment on what to decide on! :)
Posted by: Dr Horrible | July 25, 2008 5:58 AM
Lasties!
FOR THE LOVE OF DOG PLEASE LET THIS BE LASTIES!!!
:P
Posted by: Mick | July 25, 2008 6:03 AM
I'm shocked - shocked, I tell you - that you do not compost your banana peels and coffee grounds. Have you no decency?
Posted by: John Morales | July 25, 2008 6:04 AM
I had faith that PZ was a man of his word. :)
Posted by: DingoDave | July 25, 2008 6:09 AM
This whole debacle, and all the Catholic whining and hand wringing, reminds me of these:
http://www.saynotocrack.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/04/stealin-my-bucket-seal.jpg
http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a9/shaun263/03-miss-mah-bucket.jpg
http://icanhascheezburger.files.wordpress.com/2007/12/funny-pictures-shark-bucket.jpg
LOL
Posted by: Lanfranc | July 25, 2008 6:13 AM
Snark #2141: "Humanistische Pressedienst"? Really? Well, I'm sure we can count on them to present a neutral and unbiased account of events.
Since this is allegedly "Science Blogs", maybe we should consider basing our opinions on some actual sound research instead? A few recommendations:
Besier: Die Kirchen und das Dritte Reich. Spaltungen und Abwehrkämpfe 1934-1937 (2001)
Besier u.a.: Der Heilige Stuhl und Hitler-Deutschland. Die Faszination des Totalitären (2004)
Lindemann: "Typisch jüdisch". Die Stellung der Ev.-luth. Landeskirche Hannover zu Antijudaismus, Judenfeindschaft und Antisemitismus 1919-1949 (1998)
Dierker: Himmlers Glaubenskrieger: Der Sicherheitsdienst der SS und seine Religionspolitik, 1933-1941 (2002)
Posted by: Andrew (the sensible one) | July 25, 2008 6:33 AM
Great post PZ. I applaud you for turning this situation into a lesson - not that it was likely you would not.
So many people are trying to come up with analogies to say why this lesson was hateful. Well some pills are bitter to swallow. Grow up and suck it down.
I have not so much an analogy, but a parallel. When American soldiers are dying on the battlefront, are they dying for a piece of cloth with stars and stripes on it, or are they dying for the ideal of freedom? Let us not be distracted by the (in)justness of the war.
Which is it? The physical flag, or what lies behind the object? If I burn an American flag and say "Death to America" I am making my intent known that I am not attacking the flag, but coming for your nation. However, if I just burn a flag and say this is a piece of cloth that means nothing to me then where is the threat? In a meta sense, I am just using a symbol to make a symbolic statement (maybe against the foreign manufacture of flags, or against some policy that I find abhorrent). It is the context that counts.
And the context of this fracas is that a person is more important than a mass produced object that happens to be used symbolically.
So here is the question that Catholics can respond to that will indicate how human they are: Is the livelihood (and life) of a person less important than a piece of cloth? Or infinitely more?
A simple question.
Posted by: Nom | July 25, 2008 6:34 AM
What a moron. What next, pulling wings off of flies? Torturing puppies? Most sane people don't go through life trying to offend others. But hey, whatever gets your pathetic little ego off, go for it.
Just understand that people will think you a scumbag. But then again, I'm guessing most people have thought that way about you for a long time.
Posted by: Michelle | July 25, 2008 6:42 AM
Well nom, you freaks think he's a scumbag, we think he's a wise man. So suck it up.
This whole thing had a great lesson, a great moral. I admire PZ for it. If only the whole world was like that it would be great.
Posted by: travc | July 25, 2008 6:45 AM
Should have left out the nail and thrown everything in a compost pile. Everything except perhaps the coffee is prime worm food!
Hell, really go a bit 'sciencey': Add a webcam and do a time-lapse. I'm curious how long cracker takes to break down relative to the paper and banana peel.
Posted by: Vaal | July 25, 2008 6:45 AM
PZ, any news on Melanie Kroll. I have signed a petition for her to get her job back. She can't help having an ass for a husband.
Interesting that the Catholic church are/were so anti-semitic. After all, wasn't Jesus a jew?
In fact, I once said to a Christian, "Well Jesus was a Jew as well". He replied indignantly "No he wasn't, he was a Christian!"
I was rendered speechless :)
For once, I was speechless.
Talking about mental illness, this comment by Cardinal Ivan Dias demonstrates religious lunacy even today, never mind before the enlightenment ..
"This "spiritual warfare" had continued since the fall of Adam, raging "aided and abetted by well-known secret sects, Satanic groups and New Age movements" that revealed the "many ugly heads of the hideous anti-God monster".
Amazing. Paranoia, primitive superstition and self delusion all in one sentence. Willful ignorance is indeed a dangerous thing.
Posted by: zdk | July 25, 2008 6:50 AM
Thank you, PZ.
The final paragraph in your post made me smile until my cheeks hurt.
The world is a better place for having you in it.
Posted by: AuntieMeme | July 25, 2008 6:50 AM
I was struck this morning as I listened to the latest Point of Inquiry podcast, on which you have yourself been a featured guest in the last month or so, how different is your approach to skepticism and debunkery from the guest this week, Joe Nickell.
One of the world's leading paranormal investigators, Nickell self identifies as a "humanistic skeptic", which he defines as being open-minded to the humanity of the person behind the belief system, if not the belief system itself. A sort of "Hate the superstition, love the superstitious," mindset, if you will. Although he admits in the interview that he wasn't always as tolerant of paranormal beliefs as he is now, he came to the realization that when it comes to skepticism, when dealing with believers there is something to be said for the "softly, softly" approach. I couldn't agree more.
People who are firm believers in the paranormal - from gods to lake monsters and everything in between - are not likely to reconsider their views when you insult them, or treat them as inferior beings because you find their beliefs inferior. Those persons wavering on the fence between faith and skepticism will take one look at the angry atheist camp, and hot foot it back to the fellowship of the pancake breakfast at the local church. Everyone outside those two camps is the choir, mate, and you really don't need to preach to us. Your actions, while entertaining, did nothing to advance the cause, and only served to upset the very people we, as atheists, should be reaching out to.
I'm a long-time reader of your blog, PZ, though this is the first time I've felt moved to comment. This was badly done, sir. Very badly done.
Posted by: nondescript | July 25, 2008 7:01 AM
After the 2000+ posts you've gotten already, there's not much to add.
Bravo!
Posted by: Evolving Squid | July 25, 2008 7:01 AM
@1440, Chris said:
Agnus Dei, qui tolis peccata mundi, miserere nobis.
Caesar si viveret, ad remum dareris
Posted by: maureen | July 25, 2008 7:03 AM
1898, dear, what you describe as happening to Webster Cook IS assault - no puncture wounds or firearms or lasting physical harm are required to qualify.
1947 - how can the King James Bible be the "literal word of god?" It was put together by a series of committees and consists of translations of translations plus translations of copies. Yes, there's fine language and a good deal of scholarship in it but, if there's room in your head for a single fact, the reason the work was done was political.
Adam Nicolson has a book on the process, called God's Secretaries - still available on amazon.co.uk and I can't be arsed to find out where else - well worth a look.
Those who originally wrote down what we now call the bible probably spoke a variety of languages or dialects. Jesus, if he existed as a single indivdual, almost certainly spoke Aramaic so how come he's giving out his message in seventeenth century scholarly English? (And from what we know of his background and who he was writing to, Paul's first choice for conveying a message in writing would have been Greek.)
I may well be speaking also for many here but if you want to convince ME of anything you first have to demonstrate that you've some idea what you're talking about.
Now can I get on with the birthday present I'm trying to make for a great-niece in New Zealand?
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 7:11 AM
@ 2219,Auntie :
//Everyone outside those two camps is the choir, mate, and you really don't need to preach to us. Your actions, while entertaining, did nothing to advance the cause, and only served to upset the very people we, as atheists, should be reaching out to.//
Speak for yourself,mate !
To elaborate a little despite my urge to blahblah you,about 10000 comments back I was inclined to agree with you in parts,although I wouldnt use the word preach to describe what PZ did when he commented on what had happened to Mr Cook,but that aside.
I didnt think that it was wise to incense and upset all the deluded christians by doing stuff to their holy cracker,because like you I didnt think it would achieve anything other than further alienate them and maybe drive the moderates away,but the sheer amount of bigotry,lack of familiarity with their own holy book,hate,illiteracy,lunacy,intellectual dishonesty and sheer stupidity that the representatives of catholicism have shown here in the last 2 weeks has convinced me that indeed riducule,sarcasm and provocation aimed at debunking the religionists ridiculous superstitions is the only way to go forward.
And I think PZ has done it in a particularly stylish and balanced way in the end.
So yeah,fuck you.
Posted by: articulett | July 25, 2008 7:12 AM
Wrong, Auntiememe,-- PZ speaks out so young people can stumble upon it and see just how crazed people can get about their beliefs. Many young people need seeds exactly like this planted by intelligent adults to reject the superstitions their parents have inflicted upon them. Your opinion as to how this has not furthered critical thinking is just that--an opinion. Many, many nonbelievers started the journey towards critical thinking and away from the inanity of faith by exactly such mockery. I suspect that PZ has reached as many or more people than Joe Nickell.
My teen son and his friends are appalled at the insanity religion can lead to. He had thought we'd come a lot further than this. I'm glad to have him read this and inoculate himself against the faith meme further. It makes people very ugly indeed while imagining faults in others that are way more obvious in them. PZ works for him-- Joe Nickell doesn't. I like Joe Nickell, but PZ speaks for a scientific computer literate younger crowd and across many nations. They have different goals. YOu probably ought to work on yourself before tsk-tsking others. Joe Nickell should have taught you that there is no such thing as a psychic so your inane phrase about PZ doing "nothing to advance the cause" makes you a hypocrite. What is this cause and how do you know whose mind have been broadened? How arrogant for you to presume to know what others have learned.
To quote the self-important: "This was badly done, (mam) Very badly done". Your scolding may make you feel superior, but from my end it makes you look like someone I wouldn't take advice from.
Posted by: RN Lee | July 25, 2008 7:12 AM
I would respond, but I chuckled when I saw the picture and was struck blind.
Posted by: Jesurgislac | July 25, 2008 7:16 AM
Wow. All these people willing to kill PZ Myers, and his son, in defense of their God.
Reminds me of What I Like About Christianity.
Face it, folks, if Jesus hadn't wanted to be pierced with a rusty nail and thrown into the garbage, do you think that he couldn't ask His Father, and who would even now send more than twelve legions of angels to collect PZ's garbage, and that banana peel would even today be sitting at the right hand of God?
Posted by: Brigit | July 25, 2008 7:23 AM
Bravo PZ, well done! I came to Pharyngula as a lapsed Catholic and came out an atheist. mmmm crackers.
Posted by: Kate | July 25, 2008 7:32 AM
Well, it certainly didn't take long for the false catholics to come screaming out of their dark corners, did it?
Nice to see they don't even know their own faith's teachings well enough to understand that PZ has done nothing to them.
Nice to see their egos are so large, so unwieldy, that they can not see past themselves and their petty, earthly desires and frail human emotions long enough to see that they insult their own god on a daily basis by not believing in a word he's supposedly had written in their very own holy book.
It's very heartening to see that their faith is so weak, so frail and so tenuous that they will abandon the central teachings of their holy book in order to give in to their more base desires.
It's fantastic to read their hate-filled, "damn you to hell" comments, knowing how much their own god hates it when lowly little creations of his attempt to usurp his right to judge his creation.
The best part, though, the very best part of all of this: That they demonstrated in public how little they really know about their own religion and now they have to contend with the fact that the proof of their heresy, their blasphemy and their poor faith is written in a public forum, for all to see.
Posted by: Dunc | July 25, 2008 7:32 AM
Wow - I really thought that I was already completely inured to radioactive levels of religiously-inspired stupidity. It seems I was wrong... This thread is unbelievable.
If there is a God, why did he make all his followers so damn stupid?
Posted by: me | July 25, 2008 7:35 AM
Transubstantiation?
They're crackers!
I pray for your milkshake.
Posted by: Debra | July 25, 2008 7:36 AM
Act of Reparation to the Most Blessed Sacrament
With that most profound respect
which divine Faith inspires,
O my God and Saviour Jesus Christ,
true God and true man,
I adore Thee,
and with my whole heart I love Thee,
hidden in the most august Sacrament of the Altar,
in reparation of all the irreverences,
profanations, and sacrileges, that I,
to my shame, may have until now committed,
as also for all those
that have been committed against Thee,
or that may be ever committed for the time to come.
I offer to Thee,
therefore, O my God,
my humble adoration, not indeed,
such as Thou art worthy of,
nor such as I owe Thee,
but such, at least,
as I am capable of offerings;
and I wish that I could love Thee
with the most perfect love
of which rational creatures are capable.
In the meantime,
I desire to adore Thee now and always,
not only for those Catholics
who do not adore or love Thee,
but also so supply the defect,
and for the conversion of all heretics,
schismatics, lebertines,
atheists, blasphemers,
sorcerers, idolaters.
Ah! yes, my Jesus,
mayest Thou be known,
adored, and loved by all
and may thanks be continually given to Thee
in the most holy and august Sacrament!
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 7:37 AM
//The best part, though, the very best part of all of this: That they demonstrated in public how little they really know about their own religion and now they have to contend with the fact that the proof of their heresy, their blasphemy and their poor faith is written in a public forum, for all to see.//
And that Kate,is indeed the best part !
The Pope himself would distance himself from those wackos.....
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 25, 2008 7:39 AM
I pray for your milkshake.
Does it bring all the boys to the yard?
Posted by: alex | July 25, 2008 7:41 AM
sorry, but if you feel the need to say something like this, it's clear you've not read any more about this than what Angry Bill Donohue has had to say about it. do you actually know why PZ did this? it seems not. moreover, it seems that you, like so many others, are the one jumping in to vent abuse, having gobbled up the Catholic spin like particularly tasty wafers.
Posted by: roger b. | July 25, 2008 7:42 AM
Hell does exist, and predicted miracles too.
http://www.loveandmercy.org/loveandmercy/fatima.htm
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 7:44 AM
MAJeff,allow me....
@ 2235 roger b
blah blah blah blah blah
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 25, 2008 7:44 AM
Hell does exist, and predicted miracles too.
N-D-E!
N-D-E!
Posted by: Maugrim | July 25, 2008 7:45 AM
Let me just add my congratulations (to go eternally unread amidst the horde of comments) for a beautifully written and satisfying post. PZ, you have balls of steel.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 25, 2008 7:45 AM
I love the "hell does exist" coupled with "love and mercy."
Posted by: Julie K | July 25, 2008 7:47 AM
Bravo PZ! That was very well done. The insane replies from the cracker worshippers show that such a post was needed in order to shine some light on the dark recesses of their religion. I personally had no idea that some Catholics were this disassociated from reality and had so much repressed violence. They seem to long for the good old days when they could kill at will. So I guess I should also say 'bravo' to them for letting me see what their religion is really like.
Posted by: Edward Lau | July 25, 2008 7:47 AM
Catholic morality: Deep down I really really want to murder a stranger and shit over his dead body but for the giant security camera in the sky watching. Therefore I am morally superior!
Posted by: Mikel | July 25, 2008 7:47 AM
Very inspiring.
On my way out of religion I tried out the Catholic church to see if they had anything my native Church of the Nazarene was just missing....
I tried my darndest to believe the whole cracker=Christ thing, but the total absurdity was just too much for my mind to accept.
The Catholics that are so pissed off about this 'cracker desicration' also need to remember that they did not less to members of other faiths. For example, from the online Catholic Encyclopedia (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/02656a.htm):
They celebrate this man by calling him a saint. I smell a double standard.
Posted by: MarkA | July 25, 2008 7:48 AM
Cowardly heretic!! I noticed that there was no *spaghetti* in that trash can. Clearly, Dr. Myers knows and fears the awesome powers of the Flying Spaghetti Monster! He is wise to avoid offending His Holy Noodliness! All bow before Him!
Posted by: Dinah Peat | July 25, 2008 7:49 AM
You are free to consider the Host a mere piece of cracker. However, it feels to me that you were motivated by hate and a desire for vengeance to steal something sacred to many people. That you had no business doing, any more than I have the right to come into your home and steal something. And though you are an atheist, I'll bet you would be pretty pissed off if someone went into a synagogue and stole a Torah. No matter that it has undoubtedly already been done at some time and place.
But you talk about Catholic crimes against Jews. What are Jews other than a people united by religion? Isn't that also a false unity? Or is it your lousy history that unites you? Either way, you are just as guilty of hatred as the Catholics who have historically persecuted Jews, no matter that the crime was of a lesser degree than many of those perpetrated by Catholics.
Posted by: ChrisKG | July 25, 2008 7:49 AM
Anon said, "Yes, I do. Here, you can have it too. 70.7.120.67 Sprint Cellular"
That's in Los Angeles, so it's narrowed down a little. Well, at least to a few million.
Maybe PZ should post your information? Would you like you pathetic coward?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | July 25, 2008 7:49 AM
Four hundred posts while I caught up on my sleep. Most of the catholic posts follow the same irrationality. Somewhere in the logic is an unstated assumption that your beliefs cannot be questioned. You may not be able to question those beliefs within your faith, as it is an authoritarian belief. Anybody else can question your beliefs as they are not under the authority of the church hierarchy, and in questioning your beliefs they are not bigots or impolite. What PZ did was in direct response to the maltreatment of Webster Cook, and Bill Donohue of the Catholic League for being a hard ass about the incident. Crackergate was PZ responding to BD in a hard manner, he was following the Golden Rule--by BD's standards. The Catholics who are venting against PZ should be flooding the Catholic League with the same venom for going overboard, and making a mountain out of an anthill.
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 7:49 AM
Ironically, fool, you are the one that is wrong. 1215 is accepted as the historical beginning of the Eucharist.
But then, so far, most of the Catholics have been wrong about the start date. Not all, but most.
OTOH, you've all been wrong that it's part of the Bible as originally written. It's not. IT was added in, along with the junk about the trinity and a whole bunch of other changes, by the Catholics while they were in competition with other religious sects.
Didn't you ever get it? There is no Trinity in Judaism. There was never a trinity in Judaism.
In fact, the old testament evidence you use for the trinity is in the female voice in the old texts and points to the original POLYTHESITIC Judaism that was practiced before the 7th Century BC.
Get it now?
Your religion is phony. All the way phony. You think it's passed down without changes.
Son, if you saw the original human-sacrificing, polytheistic religion from which Catholicism evolved, YOU WOULDN'T recognize it. You wouldn't believe it. You'd refuse. Just as you people refuse to believe that we might have evolved out of a common ancestor with BATS long before our ancestors we became apes.
And yet, being completely ignorant to the totally changed religion, you demand respect for your traditions.
You want respect? Start with the human sacrifice again! You'll get some damn respect. But a cracker?
Dude, crackers are weak and they don't fight back...
Posted by: DingoDave | July 25, 2008 7:51 AM
Posted by Debra #2231:
"for the conversion of all heretics,
schismatics, lebertines,
atheists, blasphemers,
sorcerers, idolaters."
Don't you think it's a bit hypocritical for a self confessed cracker worshipper to be praying for the salvation of sorcerers and IDOLATERS?
You must have had the manditory Catholic irony-bypass operation. Did it hurt much?
Posted by: Anthony | July 25, 2008 7:53 AM
This idle talk about removing posts and comments made by the faithful is heinous. If I make speak in the collective, 'we' the faithless should try to be better than that - censorship is an attribute of the fundies. We aspire, or I would hope that we do, greater virtues. Aside from that, ridicule away.
Posted by: Ed | July 25, 2008 7:58 AM
quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack
quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack quack
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 8:01 AM
Anthony,
//If I make speak in the collective, 'we' the faithless should try to be better than that - censorship is an attribute of the fundies//
WTF?
No censorship in the 2 years Ive been here mate,project much?
We the faithless? We the Aussie Rules is a silly sport believers? We the need to pee if we drink beer people? Yeah we should be better than that !
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 25, 2008 8:02 AM
Ed: That kind of comment is considered spam around here. It's just empty noise intended to annoy. Spammers don't even get a dungeon entry -- they are just quietly disposed of and banned.
This is your only warning.
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 8:03 AM
Anthony,
//If I make speak in the collective, 'we' the faithless should try to be better than that - censorship is an attribute of the fundies//
WTF?
No censorship in the 2 years Ive been here mate,project much?
We the faithless? We the Aussie Rules is a silly sport believers? We the need to pee if we drink beer people? Yeah we should be better than that !
Posted by: John Morales | July 25, 2008 8:03 AM
@2249: Whatcha talkin' 'bout, Anthony?
We like seeing those comments in all their naked glory!
Posted by: Debra | July 25, 2008 8:06 AM
Thank you dear "Professor" for reminding me of the truth of the Third Secret of Fatima and also for reinforcing my decision to homeschool and to send my sons to a decent Catholic college.
From the Third Secret of Fatima:
"The vision of Fatima concerns above all the war waged by atheist systems against the Church and Christians, and it describes the immense suffering endured by the witnesses to the faith in the last century of the second millennium. It is an interminable Way of the Cross led by the Popes of the twentieth century."
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 8:07 AM
I used to have a large part of my practice in the Gospel Music Industry. I gave it up almost all of it because they made me sick. Nowhere, in all my years of private practice, did I see such systemic dishonesty, greed and hypocrisy.
It really came down to that once the "I'm doin' it for the Lord" crap came out, everything had to be in writing with positive engagement letters serving as our contract because, sooner or later, they were going to give me the shiv. If they wouldn't sign, too bad, so sad, find a different putz.
Even then, I had more unpaid fees from this segment (about one-third of my business) than I did with the rest of my practice combined. I still have a small number of tax clients through a local business manager. In the last two years I've had over a $1,000 in write-offs from them.
A far greater amount than from my secular, or non JESUS!!!!, crowd.
Posted by: DingoDave | July 25, 2008 8:08 AM
Hey Ed, you left out a couple of quacks.
You need to proof-read your posts more carefully in the future.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 25, 2008 8:09 AM
I know it's been fun, but I think everybody has said everything they need to say already. I will be closing this thread at 9am Central time, and I won't be opening a new thread for further ranting.
I don't mind the discussion, it's just that it's getting excessive, and since a certain kind of bizarre Catholic inanity is already on full display, I think it's good enough to simply freeze it as a testimonial. Nothing will be deleted, not even the stuff by that vile coward who likes to anonymously post information about my family.
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 8:10 AM
Debra,
congrats on being a child abuser.
But maybe it was like this:
http://www.artofeurope.com/larkin/lar2.htm
Posted by: Ed | July 25, 2008 8:11 AM
Ed: That kind of comment is considered spam around here. It's just empty noise intended to annoy. Spammers don't even get a dungeon entry -- they are just quietly disposed of and banned.
This is your only warning.
ROFLMAO!
IS THAT A THREAT "DOC"? ARE YOU THREATENING ME "DOC"?
COME ON, ZACH. DO IT. BAN ME.
Posted by: TX CHL Instructor | July 25, 2008 8:12 AM
It's not really the Qur'an if it's not in the sacred language, Arabic. PZ, you need to go after the Real Thing if you really want to piss off the members of the most dangerous superstition on the planet.
Posted by: The Steinmaster | July 25, 2008 8:13 AM
This stuff is hilarious!
It reads a lot like the anti Catholic bashing you can read on sites by David Duke, Phelps, and the KKK.
The similarity is striking.
In fact, I think some of the same posters are commenting! LOL!
Posted by: Ed | July 25, 2008 8:14 AM
THAT'S RIGHT ZACH, SILENCE ALL WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU! COWARD!
Posted by: jon | July 25, 2008 8:16 AM
Ecce Saltine!
Posted by: Debra | July 25, 2008 8:18 AM
Dear clinteas I have never abused a child nor an animal in my life. Personally although I disagree with many here and the Professor I wish no one any harm. God bless you all and keep you.
Praying for you,
Debra
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 8:19 AM
Ed,
its early in the day,not too late to see your Psychiatrist,try and get in please.
Posted by: Ed | July 25, 2008 8:19 AM
COME ON ZACH. I'M WAITING..............................
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 8:20 AM
Your uninformed and ignorant beliefs about the law doesn't make your comeback hold water. You can't fired a tenured professor "for cause" for the things he does on his time.
Honestly, get a fucking clue. He's not an "at will" employee. He's tenured. About the only way to get rid of him is if he deliberately goes out of his way to not do his job.
Seriously, what the hell is wrong with you modern bunk-house lawyers? In the days of the Usenet, bunk-house lawyers were so much smarter and had such a better handle on the law and its application...
Posted by: Paul Birchenough | July 25, 2008 8:20 AM
I support Dr. Myer's demonstration.
I also enjoyed the pictures of gumbies.
Posted by: Debra | July 25, 2008 8:20 AM
Dear clinteas I have never abused a child nor an animal in my life. Personally although I disagree with many here and the Professor I wish no one any harm. God bless you all and keep you.
Praying for you,
Debra
Posted by: Ed | July 25, 2008 8:22 AM
PERHAPS ZACH CAN SCORE HIMSELF A GOOD LAY.
Posted by: Pat | July 25, 2008 8:23 AM
As a young skeptical altar-boy-by-familial-fiat I used to scarf down a handful of hosts and wash them down with a quaff or two of the Sangria o' Jesus prior to mass. Sort of a Big MacJesus Happy Meal to set the mood for the grueling pomposity to come.
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 8:23 AM
Debra,
I pray for you too,and your children over the age of 18,and your mother.
Posted by: MB | July 25, 2008 8:23 AM
Hmm... If it´s just a cracker, why did You pierce it with a nail before throwing off? I don´t get it, sorry...
Simply throwing off would far more demonstrate that you really do not care about its relegious meaning.
Posted by: Ed | July 25, 2008 8:25 AM
IF IT LOOKS LIKES A DUCK, IT MUST BE A DUCK.
QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK.
Posted by: dinkum | July 25, 2008 8:26 AM
And that is precisely my point. I don't know its history. You don't know its history. Likely, there aren't a dozen people who know its history. And yet, look at what's happening anyway.
Actual "desecration," regardless of whomever you personally believe has the sole right of definition, is utterly and completely irrelevant. These people are going mentally ballistic over the mere idea of anyone disagreeing with their personal beliefs.
Posted by: Bob Russell | July 25, 2008 8:27 AM
PZ - how dare you descrecrate a nail like this...one of the most useful inventions of humankind wasted on one of the most useless inventions of mankind....(and in this case I do mean man)
Posted by: Eljay | July 25, 2008 8:28 AM
So, now we have a sample of maybe 10k posts on crackergate, are we going to have an ANTI-MOLLY award based on who posted the most consistently irrational and stupid comment/s?
Posted by: jagannath | July 25, 2008 8:29 AM
All hail to my god, to my collar
My god who is also your god is a loving god. He is god of all and he is an exploding collar.
He is a collar which all of us wear. He is a collar with a timer and a link to some random collar.
The loving god will explode when the timer runs out and you never know when it happens but he is loving god as when it explodes it most likely allows someone close to you to join you in the death.
Some timers never run out as my god is merciful god, he lets you live forever as long as the other collar never explodes or you associate yourself with a sinner whose collar will explode before its time but the explosion is only due his love of the sinner.
The joined collars will become one in the death and thus my god is the only true god, he does not separate you by your beliefs or color nor force you to worship him.
My god is an exploding collar and it is good that he is also your god.
All are equal under his guidance and eternal life is given to those who follow his teachings which is to wear the collar without doubt. You never need to join his church as we all are his children and joined by the collars.
Love the children of the collar, love the collar.
Posted by: Ed | July 25, 2008 8:31 AM
Hmm... If it´s just a cracker, why did You pierce it with a nail before throwing off? I don´t get it, sorry...
Simply throwing off would far more demonstrate that you really do not care about its relegious meaning.
WELL GOLLY, SOMEONE FIGURED THIS OUT?
OF COURSE HE DOESN'T THINK IT'S JUST A CRACKER. HE'S A HYPOCRITE. BUT HIS SHEEP STILL FOLLOW HIM NONETHELESS.
THE DUMB LEADING THE DUMB.
Posted by: DingoDave | July 25, 2008 8:31 AM
Posted by Ed: "THAT'S RIGHT ZACH, SILENCE ALL WHO DISAGREE WITH YOU! COWARD!"
If you had anything constructive to say, then I don't think you'd be threatened with being banned.
Have you got anything constructive to say? If so, then say it. If not, then bugger off and stop your juvenile posturing.
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 8:32 AM
Ahh... You're a bigoted, attention whore "cause troll" like Larry Farfarman.
Posted by: dinkum | July 25, 2008 8:35 AM
Ow. That's gotta hurt.
Posted by: Ed | July 25, 2008 8:37 AM
STILL HERE COWARD.....................................
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 8:38 AM
Actually, none of that happened. IT was added to the bible hundreds of years later. It is no longer considered authentic by archaeologists and historians who've gotten beyond centuries of "bible-centered" interpretations of the evidence.
In other words, once they looked at the facts as facts, and put them together properly, they discovered that most of the Old and New Testaments were bullshit.
That you haven't got the message is your problem. That you waste your life on lies is your problem.
Posted by: No One of Consequence | July 25, 2008 8:38 AM
When the comment count goes over 2000, what's the point in commenting any more? No one is going to read what you wrote anyway; well no one of consequence.
Posted by: clinteas | July 25, 2008 8:38 AM
Jesus Christ : Look at this dad,that PZ guy is mocking us again !
Almighty God: Oh fuck no,not that guy again !! Send some of our brightest minds to his blog to defend us and prove once and for all that I am the one true Lord God straight away !
Jesus Christ : Will get on to it now dad !
Ed://IF IT LOOKS LIKES A DUCK, IT MUST BE A DUCK.
QUACK, QUACK, QUACK, QUACK.//
Almighty God: Jesus !!! WTF?? Who's this guy Ed? Did I say pluck some dude from an asylum to defend us??
Jesus Christ: *cringe* But dad,he was the brightest they had !
Almighty God: *Initialize self-destruct sequence*
Posted by: Dianne | July 25, 2008 8:38 AM
Catholics might as well admit that they don't believe that the host is the literal body of Christ. How do I know that they don't? Because people with celiac disease can get a special wheat free host. If they really believed in literal transsubstantiation, it wouldn't matter what the object started out being because it would change into human flesh once blessed (or maybe once consumed--I'm not too clear on that point.) So why not admit that it's just a cracker with high symbolic value?
Posted by: Robin Levett | July 25, 2008 8:39 AM
@Bill Dauphin (#287):
Any differences are purely accidental...
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 8:40 AM
Morning all. I can't believe this is still going. But I'm gonna get another post in before the end.
Congratulations, PZ; it's worked - and probably better than anticipated, since I had no idea papists were as reactionary as the protestants. No doubt one or two mothers will be checking the basement to see their good little catholic boy isn't masturbating to mocked-up Virgin Mary porn again, and find instead that he's managed to choke on his own tongue from the all the impotent raging and frothing-at-the-mouth.
I just love how they think all their co-religionists are as retarded as they are. Here's a hint, guys - if the Pope can't be bothered mentioning it, it probably isn't worth shrieking about.
Then again, he's probably as embarrassed by US catholics as all the rest of the world's christians are by the fundies. Seriously, if it wasn't for the increasing Latino population I doubt he'd even remember they were there.
Posted by: Ben | July 25, 2008 8:42 AM
True enough. Any comparison to Larry Fafarman is probably enough to give even the most steadfast of disposition a sudden bout of unameliorable rage. That guy is so rage inducing.Posted by: Damian | July 25, 2008 8:42 AM
bob smith #1550 [and any other believers that have made, or currently believe, this ridiculous "argument":
Nonsense. To even begin to defend this you would have to first show show that all attempts to ground objective morality on a nontheistic basis fail. As this has not happened, you are nowhere near showing that nontheistic morality is necessarily subjective. In other words, you are simply asserting that it is so.
This is one example:The Case for Objective Morality [Francois Tremblay]:
And here's the thing: there are so many problems with a theistic morality that I simply could not list them here. But most theists -- who sometimes delight in telling atheists that they either cannot be moral without God, or that there can be no objective morality without God -- often don't have the first idea about what it takes to ground ethics and morality in sound principles.
These are just some of the problems with attempting to ground ethics on a theistic basis:
The Euthyphro dilemma
"Is what is moral commanded by God because it is moral, or is it moral because it is commanded by God?"
- "The first horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is moral is commanded by God because it is moral) implies that morality is independent of God and, indeed, that God is bound by morality just as his creatures are. God then becomes little more than a passer-on of moral knowledge."
- "The second horn of the dilemma (i.e. that which is moral is moral because it is commanded by God, known as divine command theory) runs into three main problems:
- First, it implies that what is good is arbitrary, based merely upon God's whim; if God had created the world to include the values that rape, murder, and torture were virtues, while mercy and charity were vices, then they would have been.
- Secondly, it implies that calling God good makes no non-tautological sense (or, at best, that one is simply saying that God is consistent and not hypocritical).
- Thirdly, it involves a form of reasoning that G.E. Moore classified as a naturalistic fallacy; to explain the claim that murder is wrong (or the prescription that one should not commit murder), in terms of what God has or hasn't said is to argue from what Moore classified as a putative fact about the world to what Moore classified as a value (see is-ought problem)."
However you attempt to squirm of out this dilemma, you are always going to run in to the same problem. It doesn't matter whether you claim that it is a command, or part of God's character, or anything else that you can think of.
And there are more problems, as well. How does one objectively [and it would have to be so] decide, not just between the competing accounts of different religions, but also the same religion? The very act of deciding to either become, or to remain a Catholic [who interpret scripture differently from other Christians], introduces subjectivity in to the equation. You are essentially deciding which account of morality [as well as other teachings] suit you, personally. This is not objectivity -- at least in totality.
Also, how do you decide what to do about the thousands of modern moral dilemma's that are not even mentioned in the bible [child custody, for example]? There is no scriptural basis for deciding who should have custody of children after a divorce. So, I'm afraid, many of your own moral choices will necessarily have to be informed by the secular, and often nontheistic, world.
To conclude, it is my own opinion that we are all in the same boat in terms of ethics and morality, and that theists, by virtue of being able to hand over all of their ethical impulses to God -- a God, by the way, whose moral nature is decidedly incoherent, in the first place -- become lazy, and often don't even think about ethical questions at all. If you honestly believe that deferring to another -- even the creator of the universe -- is the best way to develop a compassionate and consistent moral character, I beg to differ.
Posted by: NelC | July 25, 2008 8:47 AM
The truth cannot be silenced: bananas are best when they're brown!
Posted by: Keith B | July 25, 2008 8:51 AM
Is the Catholic Inquisition over yet?
Posted by: enkla z | July 25, 2008 8:51 AM
Geee...., PZ,
you've received a lot of comment notes and one understands if you don't feel like reading them all (i sure haven't), but i think #1975 expresses what a lot of us feel.
"Nothing must be held sacred".....hm.....how about a person's home, house? Or a loved one's gravestone, a gift you received from a beloved relative just before he/she died?
I think any atheist can relate to those examples.
A gravestone is after all "just a frackin' piece of mineral", isn't it?
An important book given to someone by grandma is just a frackin' fibre, isn't it?
Of course certain items are sacred to you. The same goes for all people.
/ simple z
Posted by: LisaJ | July 25, 2008 8:53 AM
I can't believe this is still going on at full force! Well, maybe we all managed to get through to a few of them.... but I doubt it. We sure can't say we didn't try though.
Congrats PZ on a well thought out and very fitting display of why the core beliefs of religion are just so stupid. I know I always try to ask questions about everything, and hopefully you have inspired at least a few to start doing that for themselves. Bravo!
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | July 25, 2008 8:55 AM
So, now we have a sample of maybe 10k posts on crackergate, are we going to have an ANTI-MOLLY award based on who posted the most consistently irrational and stupid comment/s?
Are we calling it the KENNY?
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 8:55 AM
This CW is an irony factory of the first water. Virtually every post is full of his hate, bile and demonstrated compartmentalization he needs to avoid the effects of cognitive dissonance. What an amazing piece of work.
Sometimes I wish I'd have gone the clinical psychology route. How a mind, so obviously screwed up, can still function, at any level at all, is amazing.
Posted by: Alejandro | July 25, 2008 8:58 AM
Shame on you, PZ Myers! How dare you desecrate "The god delusion" Richard Dawkins' acolytes will hunt you down!
I dare you to desecrate "The Origin of the Species", just so you can see how evil those evil-utionists can be.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 25, 2008 8:58 AM
Nope. Nothing is sacred. "Sacred" is an ooga-booga word used by the religious to wall of something from criticism. Some things are important and of value to us, but nothing is literally divine, nothing is sacrosanct. Like I said, question everything.
My home is of value to me, but to claim that it is sacred to me is simply ridiculous. If I were to put it on the market, for instance, people would actually argue with me about the dollar value of the place, and some people would outright reject my home. Especially with the housing market as it is now. So what's sacred about that?
Posted by: Kelly | July 25, 2008 8:59 AM
Oh no. Baby Jesus is crying.
Thanks a lot, PZ. Now I have to go feed him from my atheist's teat in order to quiet his infant rage.
Posted by: BaldApe | July 25, 2008 9:02 AM
So PZ, do you, like, get paid by the number of comments or something?
Posted by: jimmiraybob | July 25, 2008 9:03 AM
Wow. The blog's still here. I was worried it would have sunk last night under the weight of so many comments. Must be built on bedrock. Good job PZ - always best to build on a solid foundation.
Posted by: Moses | July 25, 2008 9:06 AM
In some weird way, I like Larry Farfarman. Sure, his opinions are pure nutter. Yes, he's more annoying than a leg-humping dog.
But he's so earnest in a crazy-old-man way. If he didn't have the Internet, he'd be sitting on his porch yelling at kids for getting on his lawn or because their hair is too long or something.
Of course, I also like stinky cheese. And eating pickled onions by the jar. And I make a dish that's basically blanched garlic cloves and jalapenos marinated in olive oil and finished off with just a bit of balsamic vinegar... When I eat it, my skin and breath smells like garlic for days.
Time is running out. Got to get ready for client meetings.
Have fun everyone.
Posted by: Andrew (the sensible one) | July 25, 2008 9:07 AM
Ed@2281: For the slow amongst us (yes that is you), PZ did that because that was a piece of 13'th century (and later) propaganda on a wood carving about the blood libel. The one that resulted in 100's of thousands of dead Jews. Ya know. That bit of Christian lovin'...
Posted by: TG | July 25, 2008 9:10 AM
"Actually, none of that happened. IT was added to the bible hundreds of years later. It is no longer considered authentic by archaeologists and historians who've gotten beyond centuries of "bible-centered" interpretations of the evidence.
In other words, once they looked at the facts as facts, and put them together properly, they discovered that most of the Old and New Testaments were bullshit.
That you haven't got the message is your problem. That you waste your life on lies is your problem. "
Actually, wasting time here casting pearls before swine is my problem. I'll be watching the developments in the news from now on.
Real desecration or hoax, PZ had brought the political thunder and lightning down upon his own head. Best for you to worry about his problems from now on. S'long.
Posted by: DingoDave | July 25, 2008 9:10 AM
"The Golden Rule is based on love of neighbor, not hate of neighbor. What this guy did is in no way an application of the Golden Rule. It is nothing but hate being purposely put on display." - Posted by: bob smith
Would that be 'Normal Bob Smith'?
If you want to see some serious 'blaspheming', then check out the links below.
(DISCLAIMER - Neither PZ Myers, nor the University of Minnessota, nor DingoDave deem themselves to be in any way responsible for any adverse reactions which Christian fanatics might experience after clicking on any of the following links)
Click and Enjoy. : D
http://www.jesusdressup.com/
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/flash_jesus/flash_jesus.htm
http://www.normalbobsmith.com/revenge/
Posted by: MK | July 25, 2008 9:11 AM
""I'm afraid sometimes
you'll play lonely games too,
games you can't win
because you'll play against you""
"Fallacies do not cease to be fallacies because they become fashions."
GK Chesterton
"Some day you will be old enough to start reading fairy tales again."
CS Lewis
"If there were no God, there would be no atheists." GK Chesterton
What amazes me, is that you have put so much effort into something that you don't even believes exists.
I myself, do not believe in unicorns. But it would never occur to me to stab one with a rusty nail nor risk my reputation trying to debunk their existence. Me thinks thou dost protest too much.
Amanda Marcotte, nice to see you're consitent.
Bobby Bambino, John Lewandowski...carry on.
God Bless you Mr. Myers. Truly, you are a man with far too much time on your hands. Perhaps you should look into pinochle.
Posted by: Brandon | July 25, 2008 9:12 AM
I'll throw in my two cents before the post is closed.
I think the reaction by some of the extreme Catholics was way out of line, and some criminal. I think any philosophy can be abused and we've seen evidence on that from both sides.
I further think it is sad, and interesting, that so many people are hellbent to convince me to something I already know--there's virtually no way to scientifically prove religion or my faith. There's been those stories about bleeding hosts or medical miracles, but for the sake of discussion and for finding common ground, let's ignore them.
Faith is believing in things unseen. Stupid and simpleminded as it may be to many on this blog, I like that I have the faith to believe that there is more to this life than what meets the eye.
Why am I not yelling about what the Professor did? I believe there could be more going on than what meets the eye. Do I know what that is? Will I ever? No, probably not. While I believe that the wafer was God, God also exists outside of that, or all of the hosts in the world. My tradition says that God was killed by folks hellbent to bring him down.
If my faith believes that my God-in-the-flesh, made human for once and for all, was killed, it can handle some professor stabbing a host with a nail. I don't like it; I'm not elated that he did it, but my faith won't crumble.
Will God send down lightning bolts? I'm not holding my breath. Will God take out vengeance on the Professor? I don't see anything happening anytime soon. I believe that God's mercy is infinite; otherwise, I have no chance in hell of making it to my eternal goal. Do I hope to meet the Professor someday in the afterlife? I really hope so. Do I agree with folks thinking that he should meet his afterlife sooner rather than later, of course not.
Catholics are hypocrites. There's no other way to be Catholic. Our faith teaches us to aspire to be Christ, which we believe is perfect. There's no way to live perfectly. Without a doubt, some do it better than others. Some do their honest-to-God best, and it is damn close. Others do things completely off the grid and not in pursuit of Christian perfection- like sending death threats. Nail me on the No True Scotsman fallacy, if you wish, but fallacy or not, that's reality. There's no such thing as a perfect driver. Some try to drive perfectly in line with the law. Others seem to have a death wish. Doesn't mean we should try toward perfection.
It seems to be a bad thing around here to give people the benefit of the doubt. Great. I don't subscribe to that thought though.
My faith is intact and I can't scientifically prove it. Despite my science background, I'm okay with that. Science is meant to prove the things that can be proved with evidence. Theology discusses the things that are outside the bounds of evidence--sure, there may be some physical evidence here or there, but the evidence will never, on its own, prove the point.
Most here are obviously excellent on natural philosophy and logic grounded in the scientific process--which is very much needed and great. I think there's more going on in life than what can be discussed using those disciplines.
Wish you all well.
Posted by: Andrew (the sensible one) | July 25, 2008 9:13 AM
Enkla Z@2296: PZ is referring to ideas. I understand you have been drawn like a moth to the light to make a post without understanding or reading those big words at the beginning of the post, but please take the time to understand the issue beforehand.
Posted by: Brandon | July 25, 2008 9:17 AM
As an aside, I have read the Fourth Lateran Council. Yes, the Church have failed at times in the corporate pursuit of perfection.
A possibly interesting aside, the Fourth Lateran Council also codified the modern "engagement" before the wedding. The original intent is to give plenty of time before the actual wedding ceremony to allow any with knowledge of why a couple should not be wed (i.e. the guy has another wife in the next village over) to present their knowledge.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | July 25, 2008 9:19 AM
Things are going downhill fast when people start using their ridiculous miracle stories in defense for their beliefs. I mean, the "miracles" of Fatima, are you serious? Thats the kid who predicted WWII after it started right? Wow.
Posted by: Wayne | July 25, 2008 9:23 AM
That you didn't include "Silent Spring" or perhaps "Earth in the Balance" or maybe a dvd of "An Inconvenient Truth" shows your cowardice...
Posted by: Hal in Howell MI (not far from Hell, MI) | July 25, 2008 9:24 AM
After reading the threats and irrational rantings of the many apologists (read: attack dogs) for the Catholic Church, it would be wise if some "medication" were added to the weekly handout of wine and cookies. As so many others on this blog have pointed out, these people are deluded, hypocritical and likely dangerous. If the poor street people I've seen walking around talking to themselves could use the Internet, these posts represent what they would be saying. Sorry, I didn't mean to insult the street people, as even they seem to have a moral center and rationality absent in our Catholic God-botherers. I sometimes wish there was a Hell (other than a town in southeast Michigan.)
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 25, 2008 9:24 AM
I myself, do not believe in unicorns. But it would never occur to me to stab one with a rusty nail nor risk my reputation trying to debunk their existence. - MK
You miss the point quite brilliantly. There is no Church of the Divine Unicorn trying to enforce respect for its ludicrous superstitions. Chesterton would have been right if he had substituted "religions" for "God".
Me thinks thou dost protest too much. - MK
Whenever I come across this kind of cod-Shakespearian guff, I know I'm dealing with an idiot. You might at least try to get it right, however: "methinks" is one word.
Posted by: Brandon | July 25, 2008 9:25 AM
Dutch@2313: The events at Fatima occurred in 1917 from May to October.
I agree that you can't use it as defense of belief (a Catholic saying this), but you can't say "Thats the kid who predicted WWII after it started right? Wow."
Posted by: Dervin | July 25, 2008 9:27 AM
I wasn't going to make any major investments of of time, money, or effort in treating these dabs of unpleasantness as they deserve
Ok, that's a lie, you've gotten a few good web posts out of this, more hits than you ever did on your life, you've knowingly opened yourself up to threats, and for what? To claim the title of internet tough guy? That nothing bad will happen to you if insult a bunch of people who never really did anything to you? Performance artists have been tweaking the noses of the religious for at least 30 years.
One of the strengths of Western Secular Society has always been it's ability to differentiate legitimate discussion and attention whores.
Posted by: waldteufel | July 25, 2008 9:28 AM
Thanks again, P.Z.
This thread does a great job of showing the insanity and vileness of religion in general.
Sacred cows make the best hamburger!
Posted by: Michelle | July 25, 2008 9:30 AM
There's a difference between sanctity and value/importance. Sanctity is to imagine that there's a big guy/girl/spirit up there that wants you to venerate him/her/it. Value/importance is simply that it's important to you, through love or care or simply your moral values. For instance, life is important.
A great example is Abraham. Remember? God, the sacred man, told Abraham "go kill your kid for me." and Abraham went to do it. God aborted the process but Abraham still wanted to do it without blinking. So in this light, the Bible states that God comes before everyone or everything you love or care for.
There's also the instance where the Bible says you have to kill everyone that disses god or prays to other gods and tries to drag you into it, EVEN YOUR FAMILY. That's in Deuteronomy.
Someone with right values, that is that LIFE is more important than CULTS, would never do that. But the bible PRAISES such things, and thus a Christian that is a true christian HAS to follow the law written in his book... To put the sacred Lord and the word of the sacred book before everything you value dearly, such as your kids.
Nothing is sacred, and with that in mind you won't (unless you're batshit insane) stone your wife/husband and kids or some stranger on the street that has a different religion. But value life, value goodness, value truth. I'm an atheist and as an atheist I have morals.
Posted by: Wayne | July 25, 2008 9:31 AM
Oh yes, much more dangerous to criticize Catholicism than Islam, just ask Salmon Rushdie, or Theo Van Gogh if he were around to ask...
Posted by: Hal | July 25, 2008 9:34 AM
Frankly if the fckwits promulgating these death god dogmas don't come to their senses soon we've all had it. Never mind the black death, AIDS, gigantic meteors, ice ages, global warming etc. The biggest threat to humankind is the execrable stupidity that is forced into the minds of our children by the sickness that is state sponsored religion.
Posted by: Martin de Boer | July 25, 2008 9:36 AM
Wat strikes me when reading Donohue's reaction to this blog post (great one, by the way, PZ) is his quote for the university policy. Donohue quotes:
Notice the "..." causing the word religion (just before the "...") to attract the attention. But also, by using the "..." he conviently leaves out something very crucial. For comparison, here's the complete sentence:
The sneeky bastard. He deliberately left out gender, martial status and sexual orientation. Just to name a few subjects the church discriminates on all the time!! I bet he did that on purpose.
Was I the only one to notice this?
Keep up the good work, PZ!
Posted by: Lanfranc | July 25, 2008 9:36 AM
Moses #2248: "Ironically, fool, you are the one that is wrong. 1215 is accepted as the historical beginning of the Eucharist."
If that's correct, then I can't help but wonder how St. Justin could write in 150 that "...the food which has been made into the Eucharist by the Eucharistic prayer set down by Him, and by the change of which our blood and flesh is nourished, is both the flesh and the blood of that incarnated Jesus."
Or how the Apostolic Constitutions of the late 4th century could mention this: "Let the bishop give the oblation, saying, The body of Christ; and let him that receiveth say, Amen. And let the deacon take the cup; and when he gives it, say, The blood of Christ, the cup of life; and let him that drinketh say, Amen."
Or how Catholic theologians could have complicated debates on the exact nature of the transubstantiation in the late 11th century.
Posted by: IngoB | July 25, 2008 9:37 AM
Re Jim1138 @ #2196:
No, Jim, there's (as far as I know) no "natural" way of testing whether a particular host is consecrated without considering its history. While God may of course decide to zap you if you peed on one, that would be a "super-natural" singular event at His pleasure, not a "natural" experiment repeatable at your (dis)pleasure.
Re clinteas @ #2197:
Naturally what you end up believing in religious matters is strongly influenced, sometimes determined, by your upbringing, and on a larger scale by the social and historical forces shaping your society. That however implies strictly nothing about the truth value of those beliefs. If someone indoctrinated you to believe that the area of a circle is pi*r^2, then even though you may have no idea how to prove this belief, you would still be correct. Furthermore, there is really no doubt that humans are by nature pragmatic religion-ists, who tend to believe in something or the other without necessarily being dedicated to it beyond its social functions. Both fervent faith and atheism are cultivated stances deviating from the average one observes throughout most of human history and places. But statistics once more cannot identify truth here.
Re black wolf @ #2199:
Repetition of enlightenment propaganda about medieval times doesn't make it true. For example, the recovery of Greek philosophy was certainly well on the way when St Thomas Aquinas pioneered the use of Aristotle in theology in the 13th century. Here is a bit of a counterweight to the usual claims (probably a bit one-sided as well, but so is the story you've been taught to believe...).
Re melior @ #2205:
I was not making excused for anyone, certainly not for Christians making death threats. I was simply worrying that Christians may be tempted to evil, endangering their souls as much as Prof. Myers' well-being. They won't get off the hook (with God or for that matter human law) just because Prof. Myers did evil first, if they act imprudently.
Re dinkum @ #2277:
No, people are going ballistic because Prof. Myers demonstrates publicly in both word and deed that he doesn't give a shit about their emotions and has nothing but contempt for some of their most cherished beliefs.
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 9:38 AM
MK wrote:
Funny, that sounds to me like the sort of thing that christians say Jesus would have heard from the church leaders of his time.
'You want to what? Tell stories? Consort with lepers and prostitutes? Heal the sick? Preach forgiveness? Oh Jesus, son of Joseph - you have too much time on your hands.'
One of the lessons any decent thinking person could take from the stories about Jesus it's that it's good to have someone around to piss off the religious establishment, as they're likely to be corrupt, parasitic, and do absolutely nothing good for anyone.
Posted by: Elliott James | July 25, 2008 9:38 AM
What no pizza? You're going to offend the followers of the Invisible Pink Unicorn - oh wait you've done that already.
Truly inspiring.
Adding Richard Dawkins book was a nice touch.
No gods, no masters!
Posted by: bybelknap, FCD | July 25, 2008 9:40 AM
I nominate the dipshit "Ed" for the Anti-Molly. It's a true fucktard delux.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | July 25, 2008 9:40 AM
Brandon:
http://skeptoid.com/episodes/4110
Or listen:
http://skeptoid.com/audio/skeptoid-4110.mp3
I might not be perfectly accurate in my derision, I'll take that chance.
Posted by: Elliott James | July 25, 2008 9:42 AM
What no pizza? You're going to offend the followers of the Invisible Pink Unicorn - oh wait you've done that already.
Truly inspiring.
Adding Richard Dawkins book was a nice touch.
No gods, no masters!
Posted by: Ambrose | July 25, 2008 9:43 AM
The amount of historical illiteracy by so-called rational people is incredible. Here are theee books by Jews which set the record straight on the Catholic Church, and in particular Pius XII, and the neo-pagan Hitler - one of whose goals was the extermination of Christianity when he no longer needed German Catholic fodder for his army.
Rabbi David Dalin, The Myth of Hitlers Pope
Pinchas Lapide, Three Popes and the Jews
Rabbi Israel Zolla, Why I became a Catholic
Also,
Ronald Rychlak, Righteous Gentiles
But of course, none of the enlightenned ones will read these, since facts might cloud their pontificating.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 25, 2008 9:45 AM
I agree that you can't use it [Fatima] as defense of belief (a Catholic saying this), but you can't say "Thats the kid who predicted WWII after it started right? Wow." - Brandon
Well, yes, you can. Much has been made of the "second secret" including a prophecy of WW2, but this "secret" was not revealed until August 1941.
Posted by: Scott C | July 25, 2008 9:45 AM
I love all the cries for religious tolerance. Maybe PZ's religion is a religion which involves the desecration other religions? Where is your tolerance now?
Posted by: Gingerbaker | July 25, 2008 9:45 AM
It was worth the wait. :)
Well done, PZ. You have written an exceptional piece here, hopefully the start of a new enlightenment.
Thing of beauty.
Posted by: Dahan | July 25, 2008 9:46 AM
MK at 2309,
"What amazes me, is that you have put so much effort into something that you don't even believes exists.
I myself, do not believe in unicorns. But it would never occur to me to stab one with a rusty nail nor risk my reputation trying to debunk their existence. Me thinks thou dost protest too much."
Well, I bet you would complain if your society was run by a bunch of people who believed in unicorns. If you would be unelectable to public office if you admitted you didn't believe in them. If your tax dollars were used to prop up the Unicornians. If you were told constantly that you would suffer for all eternity if you didn't follow the way of the Unicorn. If wars were fought over which color the Unicorns were. If foreign and domestic policies such as who you could marry and who could get good health care were made by referencing the Big Book of Unicorns. Etc. Etc.
I'm pretty friggin sure you would care. You might even get mad about it. And when someone else was willing to publicly stand up and say "This is not a Unicorn horn, it's just a cracker!" You might even cheer him on.
Posted by: MissPrism | July 25, 2008 9:48 AM
If the thread's closing soon, I'll jump in while I can to thank PZ for this post. It's a beautiful bit of writing.
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 25, 2008 9:49 AM
I hope that perhaps in old age PZ Myers will look back on this incident with regret. Ultimately though he will have some explaining do..
Here is another analogy for you to consider (see previous comment #310):
I am a KKK leader. I burn gigantic crosses into the wilderness surrounding various suburbs. These crosses happen to appear behind a larger predominately black community. A history of the town is compiled and various aerial shots are taken at great expense. These are then placed in a time capsule. After burial I gleefully proclaim what I have done. No physical harm or damage has been caused and the documents in the time capsule are correctly historical. Nevertheless, the people of the community have been violated and abused. It is a hate crime. This is perfectly comparable to what PZ Myers has engaged in.
Posted by: articulett | July 25, 2008 9:51 AM
DECLARATION
I hereby declare that from this day forth, July 24th will be known as "Anti-Superstition" day. On that day, rationalists will gather and desecrate religious objects that once held sway over them or other symbolisms of dogma. Sacred cows will be consumed in picnic style fashion along with pilfered blessed crackers. We will also walk under ladders, break mirrors, step on cracks, make fun of our horoscopes, and do all the set fear in trusting minds. Some of us might even put a mock hex on "true believers" and insert pins in voodoo dolls representing them.
This celebration will be recognized as a time when we kiss irrationality good bye and usher in a new age of reason where competent people are in charge rather than those claiming expertise "divine" matters.
Save the nuttiest e-mail for the occasion, PZ--it can add to the festivities, no doubt. (Maybe we can even (gasp) "desecrate" them.)
Posted by: Michelle | July 25, 2008 9:51 AM
I agree with MissPrism. It was a great piece of text. Thanks for it, PZ. It got stained by fanatism but in the end, I guess the truth hurt them.
Posted by: jimroberts | July 25, 2008 9:52 AM
How different life is in Europe!
I would have composted the coffee, fed the banana skin and the unappetizing biscuit to my guinea pigs and put the books with the old newspapers and advertising material as recycleable paper.
Posted by: Gene | July 25, 2008 9:52 AM
PZ:
I'm not sure if your Koran desecration "counts." I vaguely recall that the more radical muslims consider a Koran a Koran only if it's written in the original Arabic. "Desecrating" an English translation may be no more efficacious than "desecrating" an unconsecrated cracker.
But again, I might be wrong.
Posted by: Dan | July 25, 2008 9:52 AM
I hate to rain on some people's parade here, but when was the last time a human being physically assaulted a foodstuff & then imagined that this somehow proved the insanity of OTHER people? To my mind this entire incident is a perfect illustration of the peculiar mania that is militant atheism: you see, when we idjit catholicks address our Lord, at least we're under the impression that Someone's listening; meanwhile the author (& seemingly most of the audience) of this supposed "science blog" appear to enjoy spending a large chunk of their time shaking their fists & screaming at a Non-existent Entity. While I'm sure that one could describe this sort of pursuit in several equally-appropriate ways, "rational" or "logical" are certainly not the first ones that come to my mind. As one of those stupid, anti-Semitic, racist, troglodytic, meat-eating, etc. members of the Roman church, let me just say that I couldn't care less whether or not Mr. Myers suffers professionally because of this (for all I know, Mr. Myers might be a very fine professor). Actually the only thing I'd like to see result from this very sad & pointless act would be the abolishment of the rather unfortunate modern practice of distributing Holy Communion in the hand. Peace out, bros; keep yelling at God, I'm sure someday He's going to answer you!
"There is No Cracker-God, & PZ is His Prophet!"
Posted by: Andrew (the sensible one) | July 25, 2008 9:53 AM
Wayne @2321: I find your type despicable. You obviously understand that someone killing another person for a belief is wrong, yet you seem to have Fatwa Envy in that you actually want a Jihad to come down on PZ's arse because... Well just because.
Pathetic creature.
BTW: Islamic Jihadists=0 death threats. Internal terrorists (Catholics in this case) > 100 death threats. Time to consider your sums.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | July 25, 2008 9:54 AM
Ambrose,
All your obfuscations cannot hide or palliate the Vatican's extensive links with fascism, notably its Concordats with Mussolini and Hitler. Your church was and is a stronghold of authoritarianism, misogyny, child-abuse and corruption.
Posted by: Pete Rooke | July 25, 2008 9:56 AM
As a Catholic I am reminded of the words of an old Negro spiritual: "We shall overcome, we shall overcome.."
MLK: "Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere."
Posted by: Dahan | July 25, 2008 9:56 AM
Wayne at 2321,
Yeah, no christian would kill someone for being an atheist or anything now days...
http://vassleer.newsvine.com/_news/2007/01/03/504714-murdered-for-being-an-atheist
Posted by: Pat | July 25, 2008 9:58 AM
OK Myers, I've had it. Release the hostages or tonight its retribution time. That's right, fail to act and I'm going to Carmine's tonight and having a HUGE plate of calamari. Don't test me, I'm crazy and I'll do it!
Seriously though, the stunt is stupid and you're a jackass. But it's been a lot of fun to watch Christians and atheists go ape shit at each other, so thanks for the entertainment at any rate I guess. (and of course to all you other good people as well).
PS to anon dude posting the kids names and Myers address.... He's a jackass but you are truly a worthless loser
Posted by: Sauceress | July 25, 2008 9:58 AM
Kudos PZ :)
I love that all these outraged wailing Cathaholics go against their own dogma, which says that only their god may pass judgment.
Read your own HoLeY BOOk sheeple!
Posted by: Wowbagger | July 25, 2008 9:59 AM
Pete Rooke! Glad you could take the time out from your busy jerking-off-while-watching-snuff-films to post yet another analogy that, once again, misses the point completely.
WHOOOOOSHHHH!!!!
Get back into your gimp suit you sick misogynistic fuck.
Posted by: articulett | July 25, 2008 10:01 AM
No,Pete, it's more akin to desecrating Mormon magical underwear.
Theists suck at analogies. Faith can make you stupid. It's true.
Hint: Read before posting... make sure you don't sound like the stupid folks that posted before you. Read what PZ actually wrote... take off the theist lenses. I promise you wont perish eternally if you bite from the tree of knowledge.
Posted by: Andrew (the sensible one) | July 25, 2008 10:02 AM
articulett @ #2338: We should be doing that every day..,
Just sayin' :-)
Posted by: EmilyQ | July 25, 2008 10:03 AM
Thanks for making my job harder.
I'm just a biology professor. I want people to see the universe in all its wonder as I see it. I just want people to understand the predictive power of Darwinian Evolution and the Modern Synthesis. I understand that this is hard and threatening to many people. They are more likely to listen to me if I don't declare myself the Authority on All Things Rational and piss on their religious symbols.
Have you lost your mind?
What, exactly, are you trying to prove here?
Posted by: Chris Bell | July 25, 2008 10:05 AM
First!!!!
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 25, 2008 10:05 AM
Man, to all the people who claim that I've invested a lot of time and effort in desecrating a cracker: it took a minute. It would have been quicker if I hadn't had to take a half dozen pictures of my garbage can. As for blogging it all, I blog like I breathe, with little effort. The few posts I've written on this subject took maybe 20 minutes each to put together, less for the ones where I just redirect you to a new thread, more for this last one. The biggest time sink by far has been dealing with the obnoxious clot of email in my inbox. It's strange to see what a skewed perspective some of you get of my life -- you see it only through the lens of this blog, and you think your time spent railing against me or praying to Jebus is somehow an investment on my part.
What effort I put into it was not in response to the reality of your silly deity, but in response to the reality of your dangerous delusions. Those are real, all right, and they need to be belittled and weakened. But don't confuse the fact that I find you and your church petty, foolish, twisted, and hateful to be a testimonial to the existence of your petty, foolish, twisted, hateful god.
Now I'm afraid I'm going to have to close this thread. Its purpose has been well served: the fanatical Catholics and their crazy beliefs have been fully exposed. Over 2300 comments on this subject in 20 hours is quite enough.