…and this is a 
Who the heck is Greg Moore and why does he keep threatening me?
Category: Kooks
Posted on: July 22, 2008 3:30 PM, by PZ Myers
Here's another one for the files. This guy has sent me several menacing messages — nothing new there — but now he has announced that he's coming to visit me. I've put the header for one of Mr Moore's creepy threats below the fold, for the record. His specific email address is not included, so we don't have a repeat of the last episode.
Nice people, these Catholics. If Mr Moore shows up at my door, the only people who will be meeting him are the local police.
From: *******@gmail.com
Subject: The Visit
Date: July 22, 2008 1:21:00 PM CDT
To: myersp@morris.umn.edu
Delivered-To: pzmyers@gmail.com
Received: by 10.100.126.5 with SMTP id y5cs516034anc; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:21:17 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.65.137.5 with SMTP id p5mr6857914qbn.79.1216750876311; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:21:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from mtain-m.tc.umn.edu (mtain-m.tc.umn.edu [134.84.119.105]) by mx.google.com with ESMTP id k27si8594403qba.10.2008.07.22.11.21.14; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:21:16 -0700 (PDT)
Received: from yw-out-1718.google.com (yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.155]) by mtain-m.tc.umn.edu (UMN smtpd) with ESMTP for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 13:21:13 -0500 (CDT)
Received: by yw-out-1718.google.com with SMTP id 6so817400ywa.86 for ; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:21:01 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.142.229.5 with SMTP id b5mr1967219wfh.50.1216750860626; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
Received: by 10.143.36.9 with HTTP; Tue, 22 Jul 2008 11:21:00 -0700 (PDT)
Return-Path: <*******@gmail.com>
Return-Path: <*******@gmail.com>
Received-Spf: neutral (google.com: 134.84.119.105 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of *******@gmail.com) client-ip=134.84.119.105;
Authentication-Results: mx.google.com; spf=neutral (google.com: 134.84.119.105 is neither permitted nor denied by domain of *******@gmail.com) smtp.mail=*******@gmail.com; dkim=pass (test mode) header.i=@gmail.com
X-Umn-Remote-Mta: [N] yw-out-1718.google.com [74.125.46.155] #+IX+NR+CP+OF (A,-)
X-Umn-Report-As-Spam:
Dkim-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha256; c=relaxed/relaxed; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=domainkey-signature:received:received:message-id:date:from:to :subject:mime-version:content-type; bh=IFJaYvGoqS+lWLF8aMpHE7m5KgGQQy5/bhL7IxGG0S4=; b=i6VOPvLG5tYKRduO3vrtBFDcrxflodpzisATWx1rKlQd04Oe3YFRDoXZkF36qfl2Yu 1i7RJcWtqkUnREc3Ui86XnXLeijiQ/yw8P9sDlYRNnfZWZgS/MFbn3HQNPE95FOS8P/J 3VUXIea/Gek3CV/1R4e6Hoa/BF+1PL2OoyD1c=
Domainkey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; d=gmail.com; s=gamma; h=message-id:date:from:to:subject:mime-version:content-type; b=GqhSua8Jux2WwyIbiOujLQfe02emvgdgqbuhUWsocjaMb3gK9pwrcyKHaqtdB/sByH SOCBJPq8/wrac4UR7wQ/B24ps1ZaeFMbj3KtNgXh+n9hy7JVZ/Qj7N9JIDgem6uGeFOO gHljPoI2l1/kV/ZgXiRh2Q/2CXAiBNhwjJVuM=
Message-Id:
Comments
Love thy neighbor and turn the opther cheek, indeed.
Posted by: brokenSoldier, OM | July 22, 2008 3:34 PM
Well, we can be pretty sure it's not THIS Greg Moore:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greg_Moore_(race_car_driver)
Posted by: Vic | July 22, 2008 3:35 PM
Greg Moore, assuming it is his real name, is a common name, with probably more than several hundreds of people.
Posted by: Kim | July 22, 2008 3:38 PM
PZ,
If the message contains actual threats, forward the message to abuse@gmail.com - you may get the joker's email address pulled.
At first look, the headers look legit. It was a gmail account to a gmail account, so all the IPs are internal (10.x.x.x)
Posted by: Yossarian | July 22, 2008 3:40 PM
Murderous nutjobs like this are why I will not be encouraging my children to accept religion or small arms into their lives.
Posted by: Keith B | July 22, 2008 3:42 PM
Sorta related (holy food): Allah performs food miracles for Muslims, too.
Unsurprisingly, he doesn't put his visage on toast or meat, since good Muslims don't do that kind of thing. He writes graffiti:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/7520149.stm
Glen D
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 22, 2008 3:43 PM
Well, maybe the small arms by themselves, but definitely not in combination with most religious ideology out there.
Posted by: Keith B | July 22, 2008 3:43 PM
I should have looked closer. It was delivered to your umn.edu account first. Still, the other IPs listed are consistent with Google's gmail servers.
Posted by: Yossarian | July 22, 2008 3:43 PM
Well, since Christianity teaches Peace and Love, he's obviously coming to bring you a nice present. A delicious cake, perhaps, or some lovely mums.
Posted by: AdamK | July 22, 2008 3:43 PM
This is a serious question:
What is the point of this?
You have stated before, some sort of evidence trail, but that could be accomplished by just printing it out and tossing it in a safe and/or forwarding to someone off campus.
Why bother posting it here?
Posted by: BG | July 22, 2008 3:47 PM
Strange, Google doesn't add the client ip of the person using their webmail?
Posted by: Dutch Delight | July 22, 2008 3:47 PM
PZ, I understand not wanting to publish the email address, but what about the message itself? I'm curious as to what the guy actually wrote.
Posted by: Taz | July 22, 2008 3:47 PM
Yes, do forward the email to abuse@gmail.com. It'll probably also help to get the process started if you need a police investigation.
Posted by: Itzac | July 22, 2008 3:47 PM
Hey PZ, time to get this over with:
1. open the koran,
2. insert cracker,
3. slam koran shut.
A twofer.
Posted by: Chris Hall | July 22, 2008 3:48 PM
Send it to the FBI cybercrimes division. These are federal cases and there are a number of federal statutes being broken, felonies.
And hold off doing anything with the crackers. You've made your point, catholic terrorists=moslem terrorists. You have attracted some seriously mentally disturbed individuals and you don't want this.
I have a friend who evaluates incoming to a secure psychiatric lockup. Usually brought in by the police and often turned in by their families and friends who are scared. Some of these troll posters sound just like the poor bastards he has to deal with.
Posted by: raven | July 22, 2008 3:52 PM
Keith,
With all the religious nut jobs out there, I'm definitely glad I accepted small arms into my life. ;-)
(I'm embarrassed to admit it wasn't until my 30s that I fired a pistol of larger caliber than .22 LR, and I didn't own a rifle above that caliber, nor a shotgun above 20 ga. until my 30s either.)
Posted by: JJR | July 22, 2008 3:52 PM
Yes, I am in the same boat as Taz: If you intended to print the content of the letter, it is not coming through, for me at least, at this end of the intertubes.
Posted by: Jason Failes | July 22, 2008 3:53 PM
While we are in complete disagreement on the main issue, I am sorry you are having these kind of kooks sending threats. Violence is no way to solve a problem.
Posted by: john | July 22, 2008 3:53 PM
People who issue threats shouldn't be able to hide, and I can think of no more public place wrt this issue than Pharyngula, BG.
Posted by: Mike Haubrich, FCD | July 22, 2008 3:56 PM
weep.. you wont post the lunatics rant?
Donahue should know who the creeps are that he thinks he is leading.
Posted by: techskeptic | July 22, 2008 3:57 PM
Posted by: llewelly | July 22, 2008 3:58 PM
YOU BETTER WATCH OUT!
They're sending out spies,
You better not think,
I'm telling you why!
Crazy Cultists are coming to town!
They hate you in the morning,
They hate you in the night,
They hate & hate in Jesus's name,
If you don't treat that cracker right.
So,
You better watch out!
They're seething with spite,
You better not talk,
Or rebut their lies!
Crazy Cultists are coming to town!
Crazy Cultists are coming to town!
.
Posted by: Jaycubed | July 22, 2008 3:58 PM
I'm embarrassed that you consider that embarrassing. What the hell is wrong with you?
Posted by: Brownian, OM | July 22, 2008 4:00 PM
I, too, am curious about the actual content of the message, but PZ did say he was posting the header. He didn't say anything about the body of the e-mail.
BTW, I now have a picture representing my idea for Christ in a cube (a wafer in a Lucite block). It's posted along with a transcript from last Thursday's Catholic Answers Live, in which PZ is denounced as an "atheist fundamentalist." That's not my favorite quote, though. My favorite is "He is behaving like the people who treat other people's religions with scorn." Get a clue, folks. It's genuine scorn. No play-acting at all.
Posted by: Zeno | July 22, 2008 4:01 PM
(Un?)fortunately Google's gmail product goes to some length to keep the original sender as anonymous as said sender wishes to be and sanitizes it's added information of things like the original sender's connecting IP address, etc.
In short - all that can really be determined is that yep, there's a high confidence this came from Google. For further action you'd have to hand it off to some authority (be it Google themselves or law enforcement). Sorry.
Posted by: Fez | July 22, 2008 4:03 PM
Call the cops. I'm serious, Professor. Even threatening stuff like that is against the law. Plus, these people are crazy (stalkers, not necessarily Catholics). He might actually come and do something, and then I have no more Pharyngula to read.
Posted by: Geoffrey Korol | July 22, 2008 4:05 PM
Zeno @24,
That is excellent.
Is there any way we can duplicate the look of Han-Solo-encased-in-carbonite for PZ's cracker?
The messiah should be quite well preserved, assuming he survives the freezing process....
Posted by: Jason Failes | July 22, 2008 4:06 PM
I didn't post the contents because there are multiple emails -- for the last few days he has been sending vague "I know where you live" style messages, and now has announced that he's on the way. He's a menacing lunatic.
As for why I post these -- I'm not going to respond with violence, but I do have a soapbox, and I'm not afraid to use it. It's sending a message to these people that they are not anonymous.
Posted by: PZ Myers | July 22, 2008 4:06 PM
Sorry, folks- all the available evidence shows that "accepting small arms into your life" is like sending an engraved invatation to the Grim Reaper to come and get someone close to you, and he'll take you, at a pinch.
I have found that the ideas which a person "accepting small arms into your life" espouses are very much religious ideas, from the ancient cult of firearms worship, as promolgated through the megamedia-church.
But as far as making you safer, by any available evidence, nope.
Of course, if you wish to base your conclusion, and bet your life (and those around you) on myths, legends and self interested lies, no one can stop you. They haven't outlawed religion yet.
Posted by: Mooser | July 22, 2008 4:09 PM
Wasn't there a commenter here with the name Greg Moore?
I know it's a common name, but it just seems really familiar for some reason.
Posted by: Capital Dan | July 22, 2008 4:11 PM
Here's one:
Top Hand Cowboy Church
15123 N Hwy 6
Valley Mills TX 76689
254-723-4092
http://www.tophandcowboychurch.com
Description: Pastor: Greg Moore Mail: P O Box 428 Valley Mills, TX 76689 gmoore@txwi.net
i realize the email address is not gmail.
Here is another possibility
http://www.foundationalfamilyresources.org/
this is one of the reasons these idiots shouldn't be doing crap like that. At least one of these other delusional Greg Moore's is totally innocent of threatening PZ. But its too easy to find fanatical Greg Moores. I can imagine less tolerant or internet savvy people than me firing off nastygrams to these guys.
why Donahue remains so morally weak that he doesnt respond properly to these sort of actions by these idiots continues to amaze me.
Why the catholic church, who apparently Donahue doesn't actually represent, despite anything he says doesn't chastise him for this nonsense speaks more of the church than anyting PZ ever said.
Posted by: techskeptic | July 22, 2008 4:12 PM
This is why I won't use my name at my own blog. I don't discuss religion the way PZ does, but I do criticize creationists. Most of those people are harmless, but it only takes one maniac to ruin your day -- or your life -- and they've got a lot more than one maniac in that camp.
I doubt that Ben Stein has received death threats from biologists, yet he claims that science kills. Reality to Ben: it's anti-science you gotta watch out for!
Posted by: PatrickHenry | July 22, 2008 4:12 PM
PZ, you and Donahue deserve each other. But you don't deserve this Moore.
Posted by: James Goetz | July 22, 2008 4:13 PM
Posted by: Dustin | July 22, 2008 4:13 PM
It sounds like you've already contacted the local police, which is a good thing. If you haven't already, it would be worth contacting da Feds (I'm not a US American, so I don't know how that works). It is a federal offence, isn't it? Or is that only if he's explicit?
Anyway, I'm glad you're not just shrugging this stuff off. Kwazy kwacker kooks.
Posted by: zaardvark | July 22, 2008 4:14 PM
Zeno wrote "BTW, I now have a picture representing my idea for Christ in a cube (a wafer in a Lucite block)."
Wow, that's the equivalent of Han Solo frozen in Carbonite! Cool!
Also, can I add my name to the chorus of "PZ, call the FBI".
Posted by: MH | July 22, 2008 4:15 PM
Is that all the info? I checked the headers on the type of mail I usually get from gmail and one looks like this:
Received: from ?192.168.1.3? ( [76.99.204.242])
by mx.google.com with ESMTPS id h17sm4718723wxd.13.2008.07.18.10.16.35
(version=SSLv3 cipher=RC4-MD5);
Fri, 18 Jul 2008 10:16:38 -0700 (PDT)
This one is the original sent-from address, with the "reported" IP being different than the actual IP - essentially behind a home LAN. It's the IP address in brackets (76.xxx) that's useful for looking up the IP address. You can even look up the general geographic location:
http://www.ip2location.com/demo.aspx
Posted by: Greg | July 22, 2008 4:16 PM
Yeah, I guess I should have clarified: they'll learn how to shoot with what I have, but they won't be getting weapons of their own until they're out of my house.
Anyways, back on topic: PZ, do you own any second amendment means of protecting yourself and your family? I don't want you going out like Theo van Gogh did four years ago.
Posted by: Keith B | July 22, 2008 4:17 PM
Update: another thing to check is the original email, *before* it was forwarded from the university mail server to gmail. Some of the important headers may have been replaced, or dropped, or something. The IP address of the original sender should be in there. If "134.84.119.105" is the original sender and not the machine that forwarded it to gmail, then that means this guy lives around Minneapolis. http://www.ip2location.com/134.84.119.105 I strongly believe that this is the machine that forwarded the message. I'd love to see the real original.
Posted by: Greg | July 22, 2008 4:21 PM
Invite him to Qcumbers. See if he has the balls to confront a whole restaurant full of atheists.
Posted by: Ghost of Minnesota | July 22, 2008 4:21 PM
PZ, you should turn all threatening email over to the police now. Don't wait to be acosted by a nutcase.
Be safe.
Posted by: RarusVir | July 22, 2008 4:21 PM
Paul,
I work for Google, and I know that you can (and should) complain about terms of service violations when threats are issued. Google isn't obliged to publish the guy's IP to you, but we can warn him off, suspend or delete his account, and in extreme cases, pass his details on to law enforcement.
Of course, he'll likely just create a new account under a different name, but at least the warning will have been issued.
Please be careful - loonies are dangerous, especially religious ones.
Regards,
A fellow atheist Paul.
Posted by: Paul Hands | July 22, 2008 4:22 PM
I agree, it's time for the police. These are probably all empty threats, but you gotta show them you mean business and you won't tolerate such things.
Posted by: Michelle | July 22, 2008 4:23 PM
JJR wrote "(I'm embarrassed to admit it wasn't until my 30s that I fired a pistol of larger caliber than .22 LR, and I didn't own a rifle above that caliber, nor a shotgun above 20 ga. until my 30s either.)"
Well, if you haven't fired an ICBM you should still be embarrassed. Wimp. /sarcasm
(Dear American gun lovers, please realise that to people outside the U.S (and war zones), your gun-o-philia comes across as, quite frankly, insane. Thanks)
Posted by: MH | July 22, 2008 4:24 PM
What Would Jesus Do?
Seek pre-emptive vengeance, no doubt.
Posted by: MP | July 22, 2008 4:26 PM
Haha, I despise Libertarian politics. I'm just a very realistic liberal moderate. I'm all about utilizing law enforcement for protection first, but sometimes those guys just can't respond as quickly as a registered 12 gauge can.
P.S. - No, none of my money goes to the NRA.
Posted by: Keith B | July 22, 2008 4:30 PM
237
"This one is the original sent-from address, with the "reported" IP being different than the actual IP - essentially behind a home LAN. It's the IP address in brackets (76.xxx) that's useful for looking up the IP address. You can even look up the general geographic location"
FYI - Not always the case, if the sender is using a proxy, then the header would be invalid. Also these are the numbers coming from the ISP, so although they'd give you a general geographic location, they wouldn't be too close. Take for instance, I'm in Santa Cruz, but if you do an rDNS lookup my IP will be coming out of San Jose, it's close, but not that close.
I'm a big fan of
http://www.zoneedit.com/lookup.html?ipaddress=&server=&reverse=Look+it+up
for geographic and domain lookups
It does look like sender info is missing
Posted by: jj | July 22, 2008 4:31 PM
I have to echo the sentiments of many other people in your comments. Do call the police and provide them copies of the emails. Whether or not Mr. Moore keeps his word or not, you'd much rather be safe than sorry. And I would hate to see anything terrible happen to you.
Its amazing how Donohue and his kind have essentially continued to encourage this pathetic behaviour. Of course, its totally okay to threaten someone's personal wellbeing over a stupid cracker and a book. Not only does this prove how insane they are, but also how inhumane. Even moreso since you know that the Catholic League has people reading this and haven't even added any sort of note to any of their articles saying they discourage this sort of behaviour. That's the very least they could do, but then again, I'm sure they're probably enjoying what's happening to you.
Posted by: Felicia | July 22, 2008 4:32 PM
Unfortunately, Google is one of the only webmail providers that doesn't put the actual originating IP address in their messages, nor do they provide much of a mechanism for reporting abuse.
Posted by: Despittreler | July 22, 2008 4:33 PM
@Greg ... that is an IP @ umn.edu (PZ's uni). I'm guessing his mail is forwarded to or from his gmail account, from or to his uni account.
Unless... the call is coming from inside the house!! :O
Posted by: zaardvark | July 22, 2008 4:33 PM
@Despittreler: are you sure? I sent myself mail, from my ISP addy, to my gmail addy, and my IP went through. Maybe we're not seeing the sender's IP because this message has been forwarded at some point, between PZ's gmail/uni accounts.
Posted by: zaardvark | July 22, 2008 4:35 PM
But he is still anonymous. No one here knows which Greg Moore it is.
Post the full headers including his email address if you want him to be non-anonymous.
I know PZ was not happy about the last two he posted with email addresses, but frankly I am glad some idiot sending death threats paid some price for them even if his family had to suffer as well, which I was not happy about, but that was his fault, not ours.
I wish the second email, the guy from Steve's Teas had suffered some consequence as well.
There are (or should be) consequences for these actions the idiots are taking.
I said it before and I'll say it again, if PZ isn't forwarding these to the proper authorities he is just enabling them to keep up this kind of behavior.
Posted by: BG | July 22, 2008 4:35 PM
There's some background noise about guns coming up here, so I thought I'd throw my cents in:
I don't own any guns, nor would I really consider it, but I have lived with people who owned guns. Outright gun nuts, actually. And you know what?
They're not insane.
All the ones I know are good people and they have a variety of reasons for keeping guns. None of those reasons are delusional or paranoid.
The stats on gun ownership and gun control are also very iffy... so before you start condemning people you consider to be insane, perhaps you should read up on it. Maybe even meet a few?
Now VERY RELIGIOUS PEOPLE... they're insane. I've met quite a few. I can say that I would rather live with a gun nut than a religious nut.
Posted by: Craigp | July 22, 2008 4:36 PM
I have to agree with Keith B in #46. Law enforcement can't possibly prevent all crime (even if that were their intended role). Guns are evil, but a necessary evil, and one I'm willing to fight to defend if need be.
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | July 22, 2008 4:38 PM
nevermind me, Despittreler, I had that backwards >_
(now im spamming)
Posted by: zaardvark | July 22, 2008 4:39 PM
jj, I know it's not terribly accurate - but even a ballpark would be helpful. Are we 100 miles away or 1000 miles away? It makes a difference. That IP I posted was probably sent from Delaware but its location gets reported as NJ. Close enough. ;)
By the way, here's a "Greg Moore" in Minneapolis. http://www.twelve.tv/about_company_history.aspx
He's probably in his 60s based on his hire date.
Posted by: Greg | July 22, 2008 4:39 PM
Keith B, Your "clarification" is almost more disturbing than JJR's "embarrassment". Wars do not make one great ...and guns do not make one safe.
Posted by: Karen James | July 22, 2008 4:40 PM
#29 wrote:
Sorry, folks- all the available evidence shows that "accepting small arms into your life" is like sending an engraved invatation to the Grim Reaper to come and get someone close to you, and he'll take you, at a pinch.
There is no such credible evidence.
In any case, tell that to my great aunt (were she still alive). When she was elderly and lived alone, a young thug cut her phone line and broke into her home. (This was long before cell phones.) She retreated to her bedroom and figured she's let the guy take what he wanted. The criminal had other ideas, and started to break into her bedroom. My aunt fetched her pistol and shot through the door, which scared the guy away. Her firearm probably saved her life.
As for me, I live alone, I'm not depressed, suicidal, or otherwise mentally unstable. The only way someone would be introduced to the "Grim Reaper" from my guns would be if they attempted to kill me or cause serious bodily harm.
Mooser, I gather from your inaccurate, fear-mongering, and paranoid post, that you have "issues." I agree you shouldn't own a weapon. Suffice to say as long as people like you exist, I plan to remain well armed.
Posted by: BluesBassist | July 22, 2008 4:41 PM
"I have to agree with Keith B in #46. Law enforcement can't possibly prevent all crime (even if that were their intended role). Guns are evil, but a necessary evil, and one I'm willing to fight to defend if need be"
What about in countries where guns are not allowed? Who would you be defending yourself against if they no one had them? I think the 'protection' argument is nothing but bunk, but I do understand the use of guns for hunting, although the badass buck hunters use bow...
Posted by: jj | July 22, 2008 4:43 PM
Google's not doing anything special to hide the sender's client IP - AFAIK all web mail works this way. When you compose a mail using a web interface, it isn't transmitted to the server using the SMTP protocol that's usually used for sending mail. Instead it's transmitted by HTTP, just like the contents of any other web form. Then it's the HTTP server's job to turn the contents of the web form into an email and send it on by SMTP. So technically the mail originates from the HTTP server (10.143.36.9 in this case). Since this keeps the user's location private and most users would consider that a good thing, there's no incentive to put any extra information into the SMTP headers.
Posted by: Selcaby | July 22, 2008 4:44 PM
Anecdotes, even those concerning family members, do not constitute data. Why even bring them up?
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 22, 2008 4:44 PM
@zaardvark, yes I mentioned as much in my follow-up. Good eyes though.
@Despittreler, It seems that at least some messages from my fellow gmail-users have the client IP in the message. I think you're wrong on this one.
I hope PZ doesn't have his forwarding system set up to trash the originals; if this header sample is complete there's definitely some dropped information.
Posted by: Greg | July 22, 2008 4:45 PM
Donohue's Catholic League website says that Webster Cook (the UCF student who first stole the cracker or wafer or Eucharist) is being impeached from his position as a member of the student senate. I guess Donohue will get his pound of flesh even if it means picking on some kid who is still in school.
Posted by: Qwerty | July 22, 2008 4:47 PM
Selcaby, some early, more naive webmail systems operated this way. However, the user's IP address is most definitely known as the source of the request that transmits the mail data. Pretty much all webmail now includes this IP address as the source. The only exception might be if using an anonymizing proxy, Tor, or some other method of address obfuscation.
Posted by: Greg | July 22, 2008 4:49 PM
So much for, "Christian love."
What a fucker.
Also, forward it to abuse@gmail.com.
Posted by: N.K. | July 22, 2008 4:50 PM
MH at #44. Yes, in the UK we read gun-o-phile comments and pity the US for its gun culture. Over here, no citizen has a gun, and nobody feels any the worse for it. In fact we quite like it :-)
Posted by: Tom | July 22, 2008 4:50 PM
@60
Partially correct, the web mail server would be the originating IP address, as that's where the message is coming from, but actually some Services will mask this with the IP of the message composer. Google does not do this, but it does happen on certain systems, usually for ease of traceability within an enterprise.
Posted by: jj | July 22, 2008 4:50 PM
Oh Science, here we go...
I wasn't advocating war. You might notice that if you reread. I am advocating a type of currently legal home security in the United States reserved strictly for dire, last resort scenarios. As a student of International Security, I read every day about armed conflicts. I learn about interstate wars, intrastate wars, genocide, politicide, democide, child soldiers, terrorism, etc. I don't think one person protecting their family is at all comparable to war. Having a weapon in your home certainly CAN make you and your family safe. You just have to know how to use the weapon properly, store it properly and ensure that it's used ONLY in self-defense and as a last resort.
Posted by: Keith B | July 22, 2008 4:52 PM
Nice people, these Catholics.
That would be stereotyping.
Posted by: Randy Stimpson aka Intelligent Designer | July 22, 2008 4:53 PM
The easiest way to avoid having to react to nasty death threats and such would seem to me to be.. living in Scandinavia. *
Since I do, I feel a strong incentive to launch my own webpage (I don't buy into the whole blog thing) and see if I can't collect threats from as many religions as possible! (Gotta catch 'em all!)
More to the point:
1) It would be interesting if PZ could note if he has contacted "the authorities", since so many threads are filled with wishes or advice for him to do so.
2) It would also be interesting to read more of the crazy cracker fan-mail.
3) I would think that publishing this one nutters email is going to deter few, if they mainly come in from a catholic newsletter, and don't even bother reading this blog. Especially so, if the number of mails continue in the thousands.
4) If some symbolic action is to be taken wafer-wise, is it not better to let it happen very soon (thus letting this thing spike in one go)?
* Note: I'm sure we have nuts too. Just less of them. Hot tempers are chilled by cool climates.
Posted by: Xeno | July 22, 2008 4:53 PM
#61 wrote:
Anecdotes, even those concerning family members, do not constitute data. Why even bring them up?
I bring it up to illustrate the point that any such "data," should it exist, is irrelevant. That's the point of individual rights.
My particular security needs and situation are very personal, and so it's not valid to assume it's not in my best interest to own a gun because of an (alleged) statistical correlation over a large population.
Posted by: BluesBassist | July 22, 2008 4:55 PM
OK, so either I or despettreler is wrong - probably me. It's a long long time since I used webmail other than google.
Anyway, I meant to say you should expect to see different headers on a webmail than on a mail sent using a dedicated mail client.
Posted by: selcaby | July 22, 2008 4:57 PM
@72
FYI - My google mail does send my IP info, but I use POP3/SMTP protocols, not HTTP.
Posted by: jj | July 22, 2008 4:59 PM
You know, I would like to be a stalker, but I am just too damn lazy, and who the hell wants to sit in bushes all day any ways?
I do not know about you, but I get rashes..
Posted by: Lago | July 22, 2008 4:59 PM
Data is not quite as useful when it comes to a particular life.
Throwing it out is just as nonsensical as throwing it in.
Posted by: gwgangung | July 22, 2008 5:00 PM
Jerk!
(Greg Moore that is.)
Posted by: MCP | July 22, 2008 5:00 PM
Interesting. I checked more of my messages from fellow gmail users. Some have IPs, some don't - and I know which people use the webmail and which do not. The insertion of IPs is not consistent.
Posted by: Greg | July 22, 2008 5:04 PM
I thought about saying so myself, but thought that he almost certainly has done so. Doesn't this imply as much?
I suspect that Myers is doing all that a responsible person would. Remember, he has more than himself to consider in this affair, having to be careful for his family.
I suspect one should worry more about those who don't send emails, in fact.
On the whole, there probably is no great threat. Yet religious violence has happened before (and recently), so I hope the local police are quite efficient in this matter.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Glen Davidson | July 22, 2008 5:06 PM
"What about in countries where guns are not allowed? Who would you be defending yourself against if they no one had them? I think the 'protection' argument is nothing but bunk"
Lets. Japan where an indiviual is not allowed to own sporting equipment such as baseball bats and those who practice martial arts with swords must register them the same as a US firearm. England where it is quickly becoming illegal to carry screwdrives, awls, sharp pointy sticks, etc. due to the stabbing violence (BBC report).
So what do we have here? People will kill people. Criminals will use whatever they can. Preventing the honest population from leveling the playing field, thats criminal. I guess you have to ask yourself "Do I want to be a victim?". Rely on the police when you can, but can they be in your house between the time it takes to go from your front door to your bedroom?
Posted by: Randy | July 22, 2008 5:07 PM
why don't we ever get to read these "death threats"??? never saw an actual "death threat" against webster cook, either.
just curious.
Posted by: puzzled | July 22, 2008 5:09 PM
jj:
The problem with your argument is this: you (intentionally?) confuse "guns are illegal" with "nobody has a gun".
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | July 22, 2008 5:09 PM
I don't know, PZ. It seems to me that public acknowledgement of these dangerous people is just encouraging them. I think they may be getting their jollies, even when you don't post the content and/or the email address.
When you get these, send them to law enforcement. They'll soon figure out that you get a lot of threats. I hope you don't say anything one way or another to us, but I hope your house is staked out right now. These are loonies; they'll do what they think their sky daddy wants them to do.
I hope this will be your last post on this subject. All the other emails, make hard-copies for yourself, and forward all pertinent information to the FBI and local authorities. And stop acknowledging them.
I'm not completely certain at this point what purpose publicly acknowledging these emails serves.
Posted by: MikeM | July 22, 2008 5:09 PM
PZ - I would forward it on to abuse@gmail.com, as well as the police, as well as even a local news station (possibly one of the ones that have already interviewed you regarding Crackergate). Sure couldn't hurt.
As for the headers, they're unfortunately useless to anyone here because it's gmail-to-gmail. This means that any SMTP messages stayed within Google's walls, until it was forwarded to your UMN account. Had he sent the messages from a home e-mail client rather than a web-based one, we might have had something to go on, but otherwise it's a mystery.
In any case, abuse@google.com should have the necessary IP information for that particular username, and therefore would be able to tell you more info. Or more likely, they'd send it to the police, as it may be a violation of privacy laws or their own terms of service to reveal one user's info to another.
Posted by: jtradke | July 22, 2008 5:10 PM
"Sorry, folks- all the available evidence shows that "accepting small arms into your life" is like sending an engraved invatation to the Grim Reaper to come and get someone close to you, and he'll take you, at a pinch."
Au contraire, the numbers show the opposite. Though it's no big difference anyway. But if you're targeted as a victim, it's a whole other game in numbers.
"I have found that the ideas which a person "accepting small arms into your life" espouses are very much religious ideas"
I am an atheist, and I like guns. Nothing religious about self-defense.
Posted by: Rudd-O | July 22, 2008 5:13 PM
This Greg Moore is described as "Right Wing"
http://illegalcurve.blogspot.com/2008/07/rangers-sign-greg-moore.html
OK - I apologise. I just HAD to!
JC
Posted by: JackC | July 22, 2008 5:13 PM
[quote]Nice people, these Catholics.
That would be stereotyping.[/quote]
Stereotyping means ascribing actions or beliefs to a person based upon unrelated commonalities, ie. all black people like watermelon. That's bigotry and stereotyping.
When the commonality IS a belief however, there is no stereotyping involved. Catholics believe in a giant, magical sky fairy. They believe that birth control is evil. They believe that the bible is a holy document revealed by a giant, magical sky fairy. They believe they must ingest a transformed cracker that IS blood and flesh.
All of these beliefs are ludicrous on their face, and to point that out ISN'T stereotyping. The same is true of Wiccans, Muslims, Buddhists, Shintoists, Animists, etc...
You may say, "but not ALL Catholics believe all of that!" Well, in that case, they're bad Catholics, and we're really not talking about them at all.
Posted by: AgnosticTheocrat | July 22, 2008 5:15 PM
I suggest folk please do not start looking up Greg Moore's in any location that you were led to by these headers - there is no personally identifiable location in the plain text of the mail headers.
There may be something encoded in the DomainKey that could identify the sender's IP, but that's something for Google to take up.
Below is an analysis of this header, starting with the bottommost Received: [note: I'm operating on the assumption that none of the mail handlers identified in the Received chain have been p0wned/are under the control of Greg Moore; this is probably a safe assumption. Also keep in mind that RFC1918 addresses are *not routable on the general Internet* unless something has gone horribly awry.]
10.143.36.9 with HTTP - This is an internal-to-google (see RFC1918) system that received a message via HTTP (ie. a browser).
10.142.229.5 - still inside the Googleplex
yw-out-1718.google.com - this is the first system that can be identified as existing in the "outside" world. And it's owned by Google (do a DNS lookup and you'll get back a list of A records, all located in the same 74.125.46.x block)
from yw-out-1718.google.com by mtain-m.tc.umn.edu - note the source machine (yw-out...) matches the host in the previous line. They match, so there's a good chance this is a legitimate handoff. The receiver was identified as a umn.edu system, so unless our Mr. Moore has access to the email gateways at umd.edu there is a verifiable chain of evidence that this email was not forged and did indeed originate within Google.
from mtain-m.tc.umn.edu by mx.google.com - this is like the above, but in reverse. Note the original delivery address of myersp at morris.xxxx; at this point PZ has his mail forwarded back to his google address (and/or also passed along into UMNs systems). Now mtain-m.tc.umd.edu has turned the message around and handed it off to mx.google.com, which means
10.65.137.5 - we're back in the Googleplex now (RFC1918, remember?)
10.100.126.5 - the final server to accept the mail into PZ's gmail mailbox, whereupon he opens a web browser, logs in, and is met with the deranged rantings of an anonymous lunatic.
No identifiable source. Again, please do everyone a favor and don't pick some random Greg Moore out of a google search because there's a geographic correlation - it's meaningless.
Sorry to r