Pharyngula

Things we’re apparently tired of

LisaJ here: A new survey shows that 48% of the American public is suffering from a frightening new illness, termed ‘Obama fatigue’. Apparently a lot of people’s Obama receptors have reached saturation, and we’re all hoping that a week long Hawaiian vacation will relieve this little issue. Now even I have noticed that Barack gets a lot more airtime than his opponent Johnnie, but how could you wish him away? He’s just so damn charismatic, with his little rock star style. So the question here is, even if you support Obama (or at least prefer him to your other choice), are you suffering from Obama fatigue? My two cents is that I’m at least glad for him that Oprah’s intensely public campaign on his behalf was largely axed.

Another rock star the public is apparently tired of is Bono. This AIDS fundraising group is asking our beloved Bono to retire from public life for his apparent philanthropic ineptness. Are you tired of this guy too?

I’ll tell you what I myself am really am tired of hearing about from the media. The fact that there’s lotsa smog in Beijing. I mean, come on, we’ve been hearing about this smog problem for months leading up to the Olympics, and now that the games have started – just watch out! The smog alert is on full force. I just got home from the movies, turned on the CBC to watch some mass Olympic bike race, the first bit of Olympic coverage I’ve seen so far, and I swear I’ve heard the words ‘smog’ and ‘athletes breathing’ 15 times in the first 23 seconds. OK, I understand that there really is a lot of smog in Beijing and that the many athletes assembled there right now may incur some respiratory tightness (but how much though really? I’m watching them ride their bikes right now and they all look pretty comfy and no one’s fallen off their bike gasping for air), but I get it already! I know the air looks foggy, I know the American (sorry about the Australian thing) athletes got off their airplane wearing masks, I know people are concerned… but it’s just getting ridiculous. I’m more than half expecting a colour coded smog alert warning to pop up on my TV screen, akin to the terror alerts commonly seen on US news stations. Is anyone feeling me here?

Comments

  1. #1 Cyan
    August 9, 2008

    The post is not signed…

  2. #2 LisaJ
    August 9, 2008

    Just fixed it :)

  3. #3 Prof. Bleen
    August 9, 2008

    Those pictures are highly reminiscent of Los Angeles in the 1960s. US athletes who trained in LA shouldn’t have much of a problem.

  4. #4 Kobra
    August 9, 2008

    LisaJ: The media is largely inept.

  5. #5 zer0
    August 9, 2008

    I just don’t watch television. Solves a lot of problems.

  6. #6 inkadu
    August 9, 2008

    Fucking media. They saturate us with images of Obama and meaningless banter about meaningless ads and then they run a story about how people are sick of hearing about Obama.

    As for the Olympics, I don’t understand why anyone thought holding them in China would be a good idea. Oh, wait, I’m sure China arranged the best collection of bribes for the crooked Olympics committee.

  7. #7 clinteas
    August 9, 2008

    I was tired of Bono and his pseudo-do-goodedness 20 years ago.
    What Bono does is not very different to prayer,it feels good but doesnt achieve much.

    And oh yeah,dont get me started on the Olympics,over the years I have totally come off that,I really used to watch religiously every single event from gymnastics to rowing,but the whole politics of it,let alone the Doping,have cured me from that.

    About the media? Well,this is a two-sided sword.I dont think there is good training in classic journalism,if you want,anymore,and people do sloppy research on their stories and make stuff up out of nothing,on the other hand there is a public that lusts after juicy sensationalistic stories a la E News,and doesnt have the attention span to listen to a well researched news story.

  8. #8 LisaJ
    August 9, 2008

    Very true. The state of media coverage these days, and what the public demands the media dishes out, is very sad and superficial.

  9. #9 Mystyk
    August 9, 2008

    This is why the media spends so much time on it…

  10. #10 DaveX
    August 9, 2008

    I’m sick of the Olympics in general. It always sounds like such a terrific waste of resources– I wish people could get this excited about something more practical!

  11. #11 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of people driving slow in the fast lane… and people talking on their cell phones in line anywhere… and people not responding when you say hello… and those god damn kids on my lawn

    get the hell off my lawn

  12. #12 CalGeorge
    August 9, 2008

    National Geographic:
    “A World Health Organization (WHO) report estimates that diseases triggered by indoor and outdoor air pollution kill 656,000 Chinese citizens each year, and polluted drinking water kills another 95,600.”

    http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2007/07/070709-china-pollution.html

    A lot of Chinese are dead because of air pollution.

    Maybe they could talk about that in the media.

  13. #13 mona
    August 9, 2008

    Know what I’m sick of? this “x fatigue” media meme, as a formula for a story. First, Amurrka had “Iraq fatigue”–meaning, not that we wanted the war over, but that we didn’t want to hear about it any more–we just can’t spend enough time thinking about it to pressure our public officials to end the occupation. Then NPR was going on about “green fatigue”–drat, global climate change is still an issue, and the corporatists are reluctant as ever to do anything about it…but the public is tired of their newfangled non-yellow light bulbs and would rather sit around and myspace, or something. I couldn’t even listen to the story, the catchphrase was irritating enough.

  14. #14 nervouswreck
    August 9, 2008

    I have to say that as an atheist, I feel a little alone having such a politically conservative view. I have yet to really hear what Obama’s real ideas are. It’s just the same old mumbo jumbo that all politicians spew. (This is in NO WAY an endorsement for McCain.)

    Maybe my “selfish genes” don’t like the idea of government telling me where the income I earn should be distributed. I do donate to charity. I am very specific of where I donate. I don’t want it going to administrative costs. I don’t mind it going to bare minimum administrative costs. That’s why I don’t donate to religious charities.

    I just wish the values of the conservative party could be ripped away from the idiocy of the religous right in the US and get back to the core values of a LIMITED federal government. Leave the “moral laws” to the locals, so they can be islands of hate rather than this continent of hate that I live in now.
    If rotweilers can be cloned, can’t Thomas Jefferson?????

  15. #15 LisaJ
    August 9, 2008

    CalGeorge. Yes, you would think they’d take this opportunity of having worldwide attention on the subject to talk about what the real problem of this pollution is. Nope, just the precious foreign athletes and visitors.

  16. #16 Rey Fox
    August 9, 2008

    I already know that I’m voting for Obama, so I only really tune in every now and then to make sure he hasn’t made some colossal campaign-destroying fuckup*. I don’t have much sympathy for people who whine about “Oh, I’m so tired of hearing about this”, or “Oh I’m so tired of hearing about that”. I say, “Turn off your TV, then you won’t have that problem.”

    * I check electoral-vote.com entirely too much. Seems that Obama’s lead has dropped from over a hundred to about fifty. Is it because of that stupid fatigue thing? Come on, America. Don’t fuck this up.

  17. #17 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    “I have to say that as an atheist, I feel a little alone having such a politically conservative view. I have yet to really hear what Obama’s real ideas are. It’s just the same old mumbo jumbo that all politicians spew”.

    You aren’t alone. There are lots of athiest who also take the very rational and sane view that granting power to government is not such a great idea.

    Around these parts, though, you’ll collect a few names you’d rather not have your sweetheart call you.

    The more I rub noses with this crowd, the more deserving of GW Bush this crowd appears to be.

    You would think they’d stop handing out dry corn cobs if their corn holes are sore…

    Barack Obama became a Christian as an adult. I don’t know about anyone else, but this suggests one of two things. He’s either not very bright, or he’s very crafty.

    I think he has set himself political course from the very get go, coming out of school and looking to “get involved” to pad his resume.

    I think he took up the Christian facade to fool the Christians.

    I think he takes up any notion that his handlers tell him to take.

    Look at the inside crowd he gathers around him. Old government, all. Some of these old Democrat insiders seem to have been unearthed from their graves for another go around.

    The only thing new to this tired old charade is the skin tone, and that seems to be working in his favor so far.

    Trying to wake up the beleivers is like, well, trying to wake up a “believer”.

  18. #18 faux mulder
    August 9, 2008

    Obama? i’m a little Obama’d out, and i’m not even an american, so it’s very likely the average u. s. citizen is as well. Hope he wins, regardless.

    Bono? you’re kidding, right? ever heard him sing? it’s like watching “elaine” on seinfeld dance…but of course, she’s trying to be awful. Maybe people are beginning to pick up on this, at last.

    Smog? beats me, the ioc is filled with fascists, refuse to watch, have for years. besides, the doping, the fixed judges, the pro/amateur malarky…why would anyone give a damn?

  19. #19 mona
    August 9, 2008

    Maybe my “selfish genes” don’t like the idea of government telling me where the income I earn should be distributed.

    my selfish genes don’t like seeing copies of themselves suffering, forced to live without housing, with poor education, unable to earn enough money to provide for themselves, and without access to medical care, when there’s ample resources that could solve the problem, with a little action. :D

    We tried voluntary taxation under the articles of confederation. It didn’t work out so well, and that was before safety nets.

  20. #20 Mrs. Peach
    August 9, 2008

    Don’t forget Clinton fatigue, another one the media invented then convinced people that’s what they were suffering from. Yeah, I don’t watch TV anymore, either. So stupid.

  21. #21 speedwell
    August 9, 2008

    I finally figured out what was niggling at me… sorry, that might get mistaken for a racist word by illiterates… what was bothering me (though I wasn’t really bothered about it) about Barack Obama’s first name. I was making a brandy drink, and I looked at the bottle in my hand… Barackpalinka, Hungarian apricot brandy. Apricot Obama. Giggles ensue. Barackpalinka will do that to you anyway, of course, given enough of it, but now it’s impossible to think of Obama without thinking of an apricot, and it’s impossible to think of him at all seriously.

    While we’re on the subject of names, I also noticed the other candidate’s name means “Son of Cain.” That can’t be right. What the hell’s up with that?

    No, I haven’t been drunk in about fifteen years. Why do you ask?

  22. #22 Amplexus
    August 9, 2008

    Selfish genes are not genes for selfishness.]

    Oh and there is more than enough supplies, food, and people wanting to be doctors. Yet these supplies don’t always get to those who need it
    Having things privately run helps some things but naturally tends to concentrate wealth in higher echelons.

  23. #23 pcarini
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of people driving slow in the fast lane…

    I’m tired of people calling it the fast lane, it’s the passing lane. If more people were aware of its proper name there would be fewer morons driving slowly in it. Aside from the mass of people who are just oblivious on the freeway anyway *shakes fist*. “Fast” is subjective, passing other cars, not so much.

    I’m tired of ordering a meal at Wendy’s and being asked whether I want a medium or large drink to go with it. It’s as if the small option has disappeared entirely.

    I’m tired of my local news station spending ten minutes pimping some reality show on their network, followed by “World in a Minute”.

    I’m tired of CNN news anchors calling their audience “folks”. And the fact that there is no longer any news on Headline Hews.. and that Glen Beck is still on television and hasn’t been slingshot into the sun along with his dominatrix mistress, Nancy Grace.

  24. #24 nervouswreck
    August 9, 2008

    Mona,
    “my selfish genes don’t like seeing copies of themselves suffering…”

    I agree, 100%. I don’t either. That’s why I try to make sure the money that I donate to charity is distributed to the causes where it does the most good. The US government is already a huge waste of tax money in beauracracy (sp?). Let’s not make it worse. I really think we agree on this. We may just see through different eyes.

    Amplexus (and Mona),
    That was just a play on words (“my selfish genes”), but you are right. The resources are there, unfortunately they just get misdirected. The US government is not, today, the way to do it efficiently.

  25. #25 rrt
    August 9, 2008

    FWIW, the mask-wearing athletes were Americans.

  26. #26 Wookster
    August 9, 2008

    “Now even I have noticed that Barack gets a lot more airtime than his opponent Johnnie”

    That’s because his opponent is tired, too. He’s taking a nap (he’s kinda old…)

  27. #27 Rayven Alandria
    August 9, 2008

    I rarely watch TV so I am not feeling the overload. I am always jacked in to the internet but I can control what I see, at least to some degree.

    I hate politics, it’s always a case of who do I hate less for me. IMO they are all dishonest slimes.

  28. #28 Wookster
    August 9, 2008

    Scott From Oregon @ #17: “You aren’t alone. There are lots of athiest who also take the very rational and sane view that granting power to government is not such a great idea.”

    So you’re going to vote for a republican? From what I hear they used to be about small government, but I’m too young (mid-twenties) to remember that time. In recent memory republicans have only brought us such wonderful government-expanding programs like the Patriot Act and NCLB. Now republicans in my state want to give the power to restrict marriage that the court just wrested from the government’s hands right back to them….but democrats are the ones giving power to the government?

  29. #29 commissarjs
    August 9, 2008

    I have news-weariness in general. I’m so incredibly sick of ignorant talking heads pimping their poorly formulated ideas that it makes me want to cut myself. I’m tired of the news networks pimping variations of the same 12 stories day after day after blargh.

    Besides this is 2008. Why in the hell do we need 24 hour news networks anymore? I can go to the websites of any of the major news networks and pick what articles I want to read. Edwards Affair… don’t care… snake in weatherman’s pants… don’t want to know anymore… Obama is an arrogant muslim fag… woops linked to Fox News somehow… Russia and Georgia go to war… Hmmmm this might be important.

  30. #30 nervouswreck
    August 9, 2008

    Scott from Oregon,
    Please don’t use my posts as a way to support some agenda that does not belong here. I hope that you are earnest, but you statments leave me wondering…..

  31. #31 nervouswreck
    August 9, 2008

    Rev.Chimp:
    “I’m tired of people driving slow in the fast lane… ”

    YES! It’s the PASSING lane. End of argument.

    And someone, besides me, tell my brother-in-law.

  32. #32 John C. Randolph
    August 9, 2008

    From what I hear they used to be about small government, but I’m too young (mid-twenties) to remember that time.

    The Republican party has evolved quite a bit over its history. Basically, they started out as Whigs, whose main purpose was to promote northern financial interests through expanding federal power and imposing high tariffs on imported goods. This culminated in the secession of the southern states, and the bloodiest war in the history of this country.

    Then, they became the occupation party, during which time the Democrats were basically split between a political wing and a terrorist wing, like the IRA would be many years later. The terrorists were called the Ku Klux Klan, and they primarily aimed their attacks at blacks, who would nearly all vote Republican unless they were scared away from the polls.

    Around the turn of the 20th century, the Republicans latched onto the concept of “progressivism”, which involved spending a lot of tax money on things like building state universities. The Democrats took up the call of “states’ rights” to resist the tax increases and expansion of federal power.

    The Republicans started to think of themselves as advocates of smaller government during the great depression, when FDR was busily expanding his power over all aspects of the economy.

    In practice, during the latter half of the 20th century, the parties became just about interchangeable. Despite their rhetoric, both democrats and republicans have taken us into wars without bothering to declare them, they’ve colluded to keep third parties out of the electoral process, they’ve imprisoned people for non-crimes like smoking pot or protesting their policies, and they’ve both steadily expanded the size and scope of the federal government.

    -jcr

  33. #33 nervouswreck
    August 9, 2008

    Wookster.
    I’m in my mid-30′s and I feel like we’re in the same boat.

    Scott from Oregon, I really did not mean to throw you out by any means. I love you, man.

    We all are here for the same reason. That the delusion of a “higher power” is a figment of imagination.

  34. #34 Rey Fox
    August 9, 2008

    I’d be interested in seeing the data regarding air pollution in Beijing in 2008 vs. Los Angeles in 1984 (or perhaps Mexico City in 1968).

  35. #35 John C. Randolph
    August 9, 2008

    We all are here for the same reason. That the delusion of a “higher power” is a figment of imagination.

    Sadly, an awful lot of people crave being told what to do, whether it’s by some imaginary cosmic dictator, or their government. The parallels are striking and disturbing.

    -jcr

  36. #36 nervouswreck
    August 9, 2008

    JCR. It’s only sad when we can’t help others realize their potential. It doesn’t have to be a higher calling, it can be the natural calling. The one we all feel.

  37. #37 Noam Zur
    August 9, 2008

    As I don’t live in the US (there are probably quite a number of Europeans besides me on this blog, as well as people from other continents and North American countries like Canada) I don’t suffer at all from Obama fatigue – more Obama apathy. As for Bono – I never could stand the bastard, so every single time I do see him it’s twice too many already

  38. #38 antaresrichard
    August 9, 2008

    It’s Commie air! I mean, “Purity of Essence” an’ all!

  39. #39 speedwell
    August 9, 2008

    “It’s Commie air! I mean, “Purity of Essence” an’ all!”

    What, the “odor of sanctity” translated to Governmentist fundamentalism?

  40. #40 maxi
    August 9, 2008

    Posted by: rrt | August 9, 2008 1:54 AM

    FWIW, the mask-wearing athletes were Americans.

    I was about to say exactly the same thing! It was your cycling team that arrived with the masks on, everyone else just got on with it. There was lots of chat about the air quality in the days leading up to the Olympics in the British press, but the subject has largely been dropped now. But then we like to display proper sportsmanship about these things.

    What am I tired of? The media banging on about the credit crunch. Ye gads I know everyone is poor, I know that house prices are dropping, I know that America is in a bad place right now but does it need to take the leading headline in every bulletin? Pft.

  41. #41 Scrabcake
    August 9, 2008

    The Aussies aren’t up themselves far enough to get off the plane with masks. Wake up, America, and smell the developing world.
    (And maybe realize that we ought to be setting an example, but that’s really too much to ask, I’m sure).

  42. #42 eddie
    August 9, 2008

    “… son of cain …” – from speedwell #21

    Brilliant! On the no-news-is-bad-news principle, the constant repetition of Obama will at least help voters who go to the polls undecided.

    On the smog issue; I think the ~600,000 is a lot less serious than some of the other reasons not to support the lympics. Check out;

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sex-selective_abortion_and_infanticide

    as one example.

  43. #43 Alan Kellogg
    August 9, 2008

    On Barack Obama I think Robert Heinlein said it best. As near as I can remember it, “There is nothing more ordinary than a 90 day wonder on the 91st day.”

  44. #44 Briar
    August 9, 2008

    I’m sick and tired of the way China is being knocked all the time. The whole point of the Olympic Games is to set nationalism aside and celebrate human athletic excellence and the aspiring spirit of the species as a whole. Do we do that? No, we go on picking out flaws in China – flaws often dwarfed by our own, but which we (with our superior Judeo-Christian values system – stone John Edwards! But lets not impeach amiable Mr Bush, nor shall we be allowed to criticise Israel for its ethnic cleansing) pretend are earth-shattering. I can tell you, if I invited someone into my house and they spent their entire visit criticising every crack and make-do repair they could find, along with my dusting and decor, they’d be out of the front door in a flash, never to return.

  45. #45 BMcP
    August 9, 2008

    Obama is not my candidate, however nor do I suffer from “Obama fatigue”. It is probable that I don’t have that issue because I virtually never use the television or newspapers for news and information. Instead I receive virtually all my news through various news sites and blogs sent to my RSS feed I have as a plug-in on my Firefox browser. Because of this, I can just pick and choose what news articles or blog entries dealing with politics that interest me. If I don’t want to read about what Obama had for breakfast, I can just skip it.

    As for China, the air pollution is abominable, but for me that is the least of my issues with the nation, with that repressive totalitarian regime it has and all.

  46. #46 John C. Randolph
    August 9, 2008

    I’m sick and tired of the way China is being knocked all the time.

    It’s unfortunate how people tend to conflate China with the thugs that rule it. The Chinese are in the process of abandoning the regime that killed 77 million of their countrymen during the “cultural revolution”, and it’s a tricky thing to do.

    What I’m hoping for is for is the collapse of the communists in China with as little bloodshed as possible. They’ve had anti-Japanese riots in the last few years. I wonder what’s going to happen when they realize that Mao killed more Chinese than Tojo.

    -jcr

  47. #47 John C. Randolph
    August 9, 2008

    I was pretty sure that Obama’s only possible way to lose would be if he tossed the consolation prize to Hillary and made her the VP candidate, but lately he’s been getting cocky, and he could just blow it on his own.

    That “national service” drum he’s beating might very well lose him the election, when people take a moment to think about whether they really feel like being subject to conscription at all, whether or not their term of indenture is served in the military.

    -jcr

  48. #48 Claudia
    August 9, 2008

    I’d love to hear some of your (everyone) thoughts on the protests surrounding the Beijing Olympics. And also, the war that’s raging in Ossetia…

  49. #50 Richard Harris
    August 9, 2008

    I don’t like the China-bashing. I have no connections with China or the Chinese, & I’ve never been there. I’m a neutral observer. There are some aspects of what I see that appear vastly superior to what goes on in the West.

    On UK tv there was recently a series called (something like) ‘China School’, that had an in-depth look at the educational system there, as manifest in 3 schools in one town. The cultural differences were apparent, particuarly the degree of co-operation at all levels. This seemed reasonable, given China’s communitarian culture & society. On the radio lasst weekend, a BBC Chinese-speaking reporter took a day-long journey by train, & recorded his experiences. I would think it was much more pleasant, even in ‘hard class’, than any train journey in the UK, where yobbish behaviour, or the fear of it, would spoil the experience.

    The point to keep in mind is that ethical systems are, to some extent, relative. For instance, property rights, based upon legal ownership & transfer, give a different distribution compared to property rights based upon equitable deistribution recognizing people’s needs. Similarly, ethical systems based upon rights promoting extensive individual freedoms are different to systems that favour society at the expense of individual freedom.

    One system is not any more right than the other, except perhaps when judged by history, should one society have demonstrably prospered better than the other. And our Western freedoms may yet destroy human civilization, through calamities caused by global warming, for instance. Or maybe not. And our freedom is somewhat illusory, because much of our motivation is sub-conscious, & marketers, politicians, & religious leaders have learned how to manipulate this for their benefit.

    I am sure that a lot of people in China have enjoyable, fulfilling lives. Without doubt, the recent government policies have brought more people out of poverty more quickly than has occurred anywhere else in human history. Before anyone says that this is contributing to global warming & pollution, it should be remembered that the Chinese per capita energy usage is about 10% of the US consumption.

    The only grounds for criticism that we have are based upon our conceits or ignorance.

  50. #51 Azkyroth
    August 9, 2008

    Are we tired of the media telling us what we’re tired of yet?

  51. #52 Tim Fuller
    August 9, 2008

    I have the personalized Mississippi license plate OBAMA08. It just replaced my IMPEACH plate from last year.

    I am not tired of Obama. I am tired of the biased MSM and their insistence that there is a horse race going on. That meme is only being spread in case they think it’s close enough to try and steal the election. It won’t be.

    I am tired of Republicans acting like the Stazi. I am tired of ignorance being heralded as the new intellectualism. I am tired of religious nutjobs attempting to reign supreme over our civil society.

    Why would I get tired of seeing a handsome face on a young fellow who is articulate and poised?

    I think the number one thing that Americans are ‘tired’ of is being lied to by authority figures when it’s common knowledge that is what is happening.

    Anybody else tired of waiting for justice to be served against the war criminals in the White House?

    Enjoy.

    Enjoy.

  52. #53 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of people calling it the fast lane, it’s the passing lane.

    OH YEAH… Well …well.

    I’m tired of people telling me I can’t call the fast lane… the fast lane.

    So there.

  53. #54 Liberal Atheist
    August 9, 2008

    Please vote for him anyway. This is far more important than whether or not people are tired of Obama being in the media all the time. It’s bigger than that. 4 more years of neoconservativism, irresponsible fiscal and foreign policies would be a disaster. Please at least try to learn from electing bad presidents.

    I’m not tired of Obama. However I am desperately tired, to the point of depression, of the guy who currently calls himself ‘president’.

  54. #55 Carlie
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of having to choose the lesser of two evils in the general election rather than a candidate I truly care about and support.

  55. #56 JoJo
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of libertarians parading their anti-government prejudices. As I told Scott from Oregon before, and he never coherently answered, it’s only people with good (or at least adequate) government who complain about governments. The people in the libertarian paradise of Somalia would love to have a functional government.

  56. #57 Jacques
    August 9, 2008

    I would bet that the smog problem in Beijing is no worse than what was found in Europe or major NA cities during the 50s, 60s and 70s. This is pure and simply racism and jealousy.

    Bono is the most overblown rock star in the world. And U2 is crap and haven’t done anything of note since about 1980.

    And yes, Americans are complete farking idiots if the MSM is anything to go by.

  57. #58 MAJeff, OM
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of anyone with the last name Lohan.

  58. #59 Teresa
    August 9, 2008

    Well, look at it this way, at least you get to view the public irony of conservative fundsmentalists all over the Internet raising a hue-and-cry over how terrible air pollution is!

    At least, when non-white people who dont share our economice philosophy do it. :-)

  59. #60 Doc
    August 9, 2008

    @ #54:
    Why is it automatically assumed the Democrat will be the “better” president?

    I don’t particularly like either choice, but I AM tired of being told Obama is “better” in very large part simply and entirely because he’s not white, not old and not Republican.

  60. #61 Mystyk
    August 9, 2008

    Carlie @ #55: “I’m tired of having to choose the lesser of two evils in the general election rather than a candidate I truly care about and support.

    I’d rather choose the lesser of two evils every time than get stuck with the greater of the same two. I can sit on my ass complaining about being “tired” or I can continually press for something better … not perfect, just better.

  61. #62 Liberal Atheist
    August 9, 2008

    @ #60

    I never said he would be better because he’s black or not old. I’m also not talking about this or that party.

    I am talking about neoconservative fantasies and irresponsible fiscal and foreign policies.

  62. #63 Mold
    August 9, 2008

    Bushie told the Chinese to not torture prisoners, to have a more equitable economy, to have transparency in government, to stop doping their ‘amateur’ athletes, and to lead the world consensus.

    Methinks China is tired of being told what to do. Especially by a legacy student. China is an adult. Pretending that whitey whites have all the answers is juvenile.

  63. #64 Carlie
    August 9, 2008

    I can sit on my ass complaining about being “tired” or I can continually press for something better … not perfect, just better.

    But the question is, how do you have any leverage to press for something better when you continually support the lesser? Sure, I’ll vote for Obama, holding my nose the whole time, in order to help not get stuck with McCain, but it sure doesn’t send a message to Obama that he’s not good enough. The opposite, really.
    And complaining about being tired is the subject of this post – that doesn’t mean I’m not doing other things IRL to try and make the party better.

  64. #65 Doc
    August 9, 2008

    @ #62

    I’ve been voting long enough to see the same sh*t out of both parties. Reagan was full of it, Clinton was full of it and kept a nice stock of extra besides. I watched ‘em both campaign, and I watched ‘em leave virtually all of their campaign promises behind. Why is is assumed “this” Democrat will be any different?

    I’ve seen the Democrats be just as “fiscally irresponsible” as the Republicans. I know I don’t like Dem-flavored Socialism any more than I like ‘Pub-flavored Neoconservatism.

    Again, why is the Democrat automatically assumed to be the better candidate?

  65. #66 MAJeff, OM
    August 9, 2008

    Again, why is the Democrat automatically assumed to be the better candidate?

    It’s not an automatic assumption. Instead, it’s the fact that, as a party, the Democrats offer policy positions closer to our own preferences than do Republicans. It’s not really that hard to understand.

  66. #67 LisaJ
    August 9, 2008

    Maxi @ #40. Sorry for the apparent blunder, I just remember seeing a clip talking about Australians wearing masks. I also don’t watch a whole lot of TV and definitely don’t tune in to all of the Olympics coverage, so I likely missed this same coverage about the Americans doing it first.

    I’m Canadian too, by the way, so America’s not my country. But just to clear things up, I wasn’t trying to bash the Australians for wearing masks. It doesn’t bother me that anyone is doing that, just that the media is so all over it and making a big deal of it.

  67. #68 LisaJ
    August 9, 2008

    Oh, and I apologize too if I heard wrong and masks and Australia was never really said in a sentence together. It could be the case that they were talking about the American team and I wasn’t paying close enough attention.

  68. #69 Carlie
    August 9, 2008

    Again, why is the Democrat automatically assumed to be the better candidate?

    Just because a person doesn’t detail all of the years of accumulation of the reasons that made them choose a particular position every time they mention it doesn’t mean that their decision is an automatic assumption.

  69. #70 Julian
    August 9, 2008

    nervouswreck & Scott from Oregon: *Rolls eyes*

    You’re both nimrods. And Scott? Go peddle your “closet Muslim” crap at Little Green Footballs where it won’t be recognized as the stealth character assassination it is. Why would a bunch of atheists care about what fictional belief system he adheres to anyway? Here’s a tip; all politicians are atheists, and they’re all faking it to get elected.

    As for you Nervouswreck, you have to pay taxes because everyone else does. Your roads are paid for (in part) by taxes from Maine and every other state in the Union. Your drinking water is safe and clean because of taxes paid by people on the other side of your county and the other side of your country. I get that you don’t like the idea of other people benefiting from your money, but you’ve benefited your whole life from the money of other people and its only fair that you contribute your share. All the services you don’t even notice cost money, and taxes are the fairest way to pay for them.

    Doc: When have the dems ever been socialists? Seriously, point out a time when they have pushed policies only supported by European socialist parties. The choice in the U.S. isn’t between the Left and the Right; it’s between the Right and the Reactionary.

  70. #71 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 9, 2008

    Well It’s only 9:20 am here and I’m already sick of hearing about John Edward’s affair.

  71. #72 Yocco
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of hearing about the smog as well. Why fly half way around the world to report on smog when you can just go to Los Angeles or at least a dozen other American cities. I never hear about the pollution during the New York City Marathon, so why should this be different.

  72. #73 JoJo
    August 9, 2008

    …John Edward’s affair.

    In Europe a senior male politician is expected to have a mistress. It’s only in the U.S., where sex is nasty and evil (and should be saved for someone you love), that a senator having an affair is considered news.

  73. #74 Terry Small
    August 9, 2008

    “I think that all good, right thinking people in this country are sick and tired of being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being told that all good, right thinking people in this country are fed up with being sick and tired. I’m certainly not, and I’m sick and tired of being told that I am.”

    But on topic, I had serious disillusion with Obama the moment he supported FISA and ever since, as he moves more to the right and alienates the population that got him the nomination. Sigh.

  74. #75 BaldApe
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of people calling it the fast lane, it’s the passing lane.

    It was the passing lane in those days of your when there was an extra lane not needed for bumper-to-bumper traffic. On a four lane road, with more cars than will fit in two lanes, it just doesn’t make sense to regard one lane as dedicated to passing. That said, I agree that if you are not going any faster than the people in the right lane, you ought to be in the right lane.

    Besides, if people in the right lane are going 55, and I’m in the left lane going 65, I’m passing, right?

  75. #76 Jams
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of people who still live in the 20th century. People, the communist/capitalist over-arching global dichotomy thing is dead and gone. It just doesn’t matter anymore. Most countries have hybrid economies, and have moved on to new problems. I’m tired of people who say left and right. Left and right doesn’t make sense without a dominant ideological polarization. I’m sorry, but the world just doesn’t have one at the moment.

    You can add me to the list of those who are sick and tired of hearing China slammed. And I’m sick and tired of hearing about the Dali Lama. Fuck the Dali Lama.

    If Bono hasn’t always been a douche, he certainly has since U2 sued Negativeland for satirizing them.

    Obama is a “former” member of a racially motivated hate group. “Tired” isn’t really the word I’d use.

  76. #77 Wookster
    August 9, 2008

    JoJo @ #56: “I’m tired of libertarians parading their anti-government prejudices.”

    I’m tired of the hypocrisy of Libertarians claiming to want to curb government powers while supporting constitutional bans on same-sex marriage and abortion.

  77. #78 Wookster
    August 9, 2008

    @ #65: “Again, why is the Democrat automatically assumed to be the better candidate?”

    Peoples’ Evidence 1: Bush, George W.
    Peoples’ Evidence 2: Cheney, Dick

  78. #79 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 9, 2008

    If Bono hasn’t always been a douche, he certainly has since U2 sued Negativeland for satirizing them.

    Bono has always been a douche. I’m tired of Bono’s sunglasses.

  79. #80 Joel
    August 9, 2008

    He’s just so damn charismatic, with his little rock star style.

    Yeah, the rock star President. Why not just elect Kid Rock?

  80. #81 Karey
    August 9, 2008

    Living in Los Angeles, I personally got tired as hell of a week of news coverage all about magazines falling off shelves. One mildly big earthquake, sure it was fun, but is the knocked-over vase in someone’s house really that newsworthy?

  81. #82 Caveat
    August 9, 2008

    Bono has become a bit of a caricature but that’s what happens when your head swells and you don’t get a new hat.

    I’m far from tired of Barry yet, but I’m a Canuck, so who cares? I could watch the guy sell the latest kitchen gadget on late-night TV and be sorry when it ended.

    What am I tired of, mediawise? Aside from inaccuracy, failure to fact-check, unwitting self-parody, arrogance, unwillingness to use the platform for education of the public and formerly credible sources’ current resemblance to ‘those’ papers you see at the checkout in grocery stores?

    I’m tired of seeing animal killers like the H$U$, Peta and others quoted as if they are experts on animal husbandry.

    I’m tired of reading that people such as myself who are challenging unconstitutional laws through the courts at great personal expense are ‘animal rights activists’.

    I’m tired of reading that shapes of dogs are breeds and that completely unrelated mongrel dogs from widely spaced geographical areas exhibit like characteristics – most of them preternatural.

    Hell, I’m just sick of the general dumbing down of our society.

    Woof.

  82. #83 skapacabra
    August 9, 2008

    Oh, are we tired of Bono now? I must have missed that memo. I thought the new thing the public was tired of was being told who we’re supposed to be tired of.

  83. #84 BigCity
    August 9, 2008

    I’m not sick of Obama. It’s not his fault that the 24-hour news channels drive everything into the ground.

    I am sick of Bono, though, which saddens me. I mean, we really do need to do something about AIDS in Africa, but next time, maybe someone a little less pretentious could take up the reins.

  84. #85 Pierce R. Butler
    August 9, 2008

    Why don’t they ever report on “pompous, shallow, herd-mentality, selectively-blind, give-lying-twits-a-bad-name, corporate-tool airhead jackass fatigue”?

  85. #86 dwarf zebu
    August 9, 2008

    No time to read everyone right now (gotta go to work) but I’m more weary of looking at McCain’s ugly mug. Seeing him makes me shudder, partly because of what he stands for, but also because he just gives me the creeps in general.

    I have never paid as much attention to an election as I am doing now. I’m sick of it on one hand and can’t look away on the other. It’s like a train wreck.

  86. #87 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    “I’m tired of libertarians parading their anti-government prejudices. As I told Scott from Oregon before, and he never coherently answered, it’s only people with good (or at least adequate) government who complain about governments. The people in the libertarian paradise of Somalia would love to have a functional government”.

    Ummmm, I never coherently answered? I now know I am talking to a life-long government guy with a 30,000 dollar HOBBY… So let me answer again. Every country I’ve ever been to (and being the son of an Air Force Pilot turned Pan Am pilot means I’ve been to quite a few), has a population that complains about its government. Even the Somalians complain. Your statement is silly and absurd…

    The US is coming up on 10 trillion in debt. It incarcerates young men and women in wheelchairs for choosing pot over highly addictive opiates for their pain med. (The gross irony of John McCain, his wife, an addict, at his side, proclaiming pot to be a gateway drug for addiction is too delicious not to notice!)it takes money from the American populace and returns Katrina service for their troubles. It takes small farms from family farmers by taxing them out, and then pays large farm corps not to farm.

    It takes money from average folks and sends it off to both Israel and the rest of the Arab states in the form of “aid”, and the money goes into the form of bombs.

    It keeps a huge military presence in places that have no need for them.

    It inflicts mass pain and suffering through subterfuge and foreign political manipulation and overt occupation.

    It is not open and honest.

    It has trampled the privacy of its citizens (starting with the tactics of the IRS and including FISA and now the mortgage bailout bill, of all things…)

    It selects its chosen ones with the complicity of a broken media…

    And I am just getting started.

  87. #88 Chris Crawford
    August 9, 2008

    Is the problem a matter of the press overdoing its output or you overdoing your consumption?

    To put it another way, if you asked the average American right now, “Do you think that it’s smoggy in Beijing?” how many Americans would answer “I don’t know.”?

    If you asked 100 Americans who the likely Democratic nominee is, how many will answer correctly?

    Somebody once wrote that people get the government they deserve. Similarly, I think people get the kind of press they deserve.

  88. #89 maxi
    August 9, 2008

    LisaJ @67

    So sorry! I did not realise you were north of the border. Apologies for calling you American ;)

  89. #90 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of the hypocrisy of Libertarians claiming to want to curb government powers while supporting constitutional bans on same-sex marriage and abortion.

    “You’re both nimrods. And Scott? Go peddle your “closet Muslim” crap at Little Green Footballs where it won’t be recognized as the stealth character assassination it is. Why would a bunch of atheists care about what fictional belief system he adheres to anyway? Here’s a tip; all politicians are atheists, and they’re all faking it to get elected.”

    What closet Muslim crap? I just point out the obvious, and wonder why all the fawning adulation for a guy obviously prepared to lie to progress in his career. That’s nothing new. We’ve seen it from Nixon, both Bush’s, Clinton, heck, even Kennedy hid his ailing back and lust for big boobs for awhile.

    Why pretend Obama is anything new or special? Because he’s half black? Talk about an odd racial motivation. The guy is nothing more than a calculating politician prepared to feed the hungry masses whatever it is that he thinks will get them to scream at his mass rallies. If “faith” works in the south, heck, go with “faith”.

    A man who lies to get the job will lie to you once he has the job.

    “As for you Nervouswreck, you have to pay taxes because everyone else does. Your roads are paid for (in part) by taxes from Maine and every other state in the Union. Your drinking water is safe and clean because of taxes paid by people on the other side of your county and the other side of your country. I get that you don’t like the idea of other people benefiting from your money, but you’ve benefited your whole life from the money of other people and its only fair that you contribute your share. All the services you don’t even notice cost money, and taxes are the fairest way to pay for them.”

    Ummm, most of the roads are paid for with income generated from a “usage fee”, namely a gas tax.

    Most of what is funneled off in the form of “income tax” is used to support unnecessary govenmental activities like a war in Iraq, military bases in Okinawa and Yukoska, redundant nuclear missile systems, fuel for huge warships that cruise foreign waters to intimidate other people.

    Some of it goes into subsidies for corporations.

    Some into church coffers to proselytize to homeless drunks.

    Hey, you’r even paying millions so that G W Bush can go watch Kobe play basketball!

  90. #91 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    “I’m tired of the hypocrisy of Libertarians claiming to want to curb government powers while supporting constitutional bans on same-sex marriage and abortion”.

    Ummm, I’ve never seen such support or hypocrisy. The Libertarian view would be that govenment has no business being in the marriage business at all.

    In othe words, if you want to marry whomever, it is your right. The government should not be involved at all.

  91. #92 ThirtyFiveUp
    August 9, 2008

    JoJo #56

    What that wise cephalapod said.

  92. #93 Kseniya
    August 9, 2008

    We have fatigue fatigue.

    I’m a sporty girl. I’d rather play than watch, though. It’s healthy. Obsessing about your favorite team, however, is not. IMO. Admiring people doing things at a high level – be it science, art, comedy, athletics – is fine. Obsessing about the home team, however, is not. IMO.

    How about a Fight AIDS Olympics, or a Fight Hunger Olympics, or a World Peace Olympics?

    I freely admit to being stupidly idealistic. It’s in my blood…

  93. #94 LisaJ
    August 9, 2008

    Kseniya (@ #93). The sad part about it is that you (and the rest of us) have to feel that your Olympic improvements are stupidly idealistic. They shouldn’t be. Those are the things we should be celebrating in this world.

    Maxi @ #89. No problem. It was tough to deal with emotionally at first, but I’ve gotten over it now :)

  94. #95 negentropyeater
    August 9, 2008

    The one thing I’m probably most tired about, are AGW deniers. That tops my list of most tiring people.

    And there seems to be a particularly large concentration of them in the USA.
    Afterall, it’s the country that produces the most greenhouse gas, both in total, and per capita, and the only country that has not even signaled its intention of ratifying it.

    And now they’re still saying that drilling a bit more oil is the right thing to do.

    Very, but very tiring. Actually I don’t know how to express how I’m tired about them.

  95. #96 allen
    August 9, 2008

    Bono? over him since 1992. specifically, since the U2 concert in Atlanta that year. opening? Big Audio Dynamite and Public Enemy. pretty diverse crowd, wouldn’t you imagine? but Bono took the opportunity, when introducing Pride, to lecture the assembled about MLK. i remember thinking, “ah, yes, of course, were i in Dublin, i’d lecture you about The Troubles.”

    twit.

  96. #97 negentropyeater
    August 9, 2008

    Sorry read #95:

    and the only country that has not even signaled its intention of ratifying the Kyoto protocol.

    (I am really tired of them I said)

  97. #98 BMcP
    August 9, 2008

    Wookster @77 Siad: I’m tired of the hypocrisy of Libertarians claiming to want to curb government powers while supporting constitutional bans on same-sex marriage and abortion

    I have never met a Libertarian that opposed same-sex marriage and abortion. O.o Small government Paleoconservatives, sure, but Libertarians??

  98. #99 Ace of Sevens
    August 9, 2008

    @ Scott #90
    Framing the abortion debate as being abotu personal freedom is assuming the consequent.

  99. #100 Chris Crawford
    August 9, 2008

    #95 The one thing I’m probably most tired about, are AGW deniers. That tops my list of most tiring people.

    Me too. I have tried really hard to get through to them, discussing the matter with great courtesy and detailed science, but they simply refuse to address the issue with any intellectual integrity.

  100. #101 LisaJ
    August 9, 2008

    #95 and #100. Those people really annoy me too. We can partly blame the good ole media again in this situation, for their propensity to present the issue as a controversy worthy of much debate.

  101. #102 Wookster
    August 9, 2008

    @ #91: “Ummm, I’ve never seen such support or hypocrisy. The Libertarian view would be that govenment has no business being in the marriage business at all.”

    Well, they DID choose the author the Defense of Marriage Act (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Defense_of_Marriage_Act) to be their presidential candidate.

    For the anti-choice Libertarian perspective, check out (or don’t, if you don’t want to overload your brain with crazy) Libertarians for Life (http://www.l4l.org/) or look up Jeffrey Diket who ran in the libertarian primary in 2004.

    Hell, look up anything Ron Paul said while associated with the Libertarian party.

  102. #103 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    I am tired of people arguing that “taxes” are good because they benefit everybody.

    Remember anthrax? Remember how anthrax was touted as Saddam’s new wonder drug? Anthrax that came to you straight from the US Army? Anthrax that contained “bentonite” (which it turns out, it didn’t) that meant it most likely came from Saddam?

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/01/anthrax/index.html

    Taxes pay for lots of evil things.

    The mind boggles.

  103. #104 negentropyeater
    August 9, 2008

    Chris #100

    but they simply refuse to address the issue with any intellectual integrity.

    What for do you need intellectual integrity when you have faith in the Christian God. It trumps everything, we can all wait, caus’ if it ends up really being true, they can all pray and he’ll take care of it. And if he doesn’t, well that’s his prerogative isn’t it, he decides, it’s his baby, if he judges not enough people were praying, it’ll be their fault, all those non believers. And anyway, he’ll send Jesus again and save the true believers. That’s already foretold in the Bible anyway.

  104. #105 JoJo
    August 9, 2008

    Ummmm, I never coherently answered?

    That’s what I said. I made a statement and you said the same crap you’re saying below. It’s not my fault you don’t give a coherent answer.

    I now know I am talking to a life-long government guy with a 30,000 dollar HOBBY…

    This is a coherent answer? This is an ad hominem from a libertarian evangelist given because I don’t accept your arguments. It’s no different than if a communist called me bourgeois or a bircher called me a commie.

    Every country I’ve ever been to (and being the son of an Air Force Pilot turned Pan Am pilot means I’ve been to quite a few), has a population that complains about its government. Even the Somalians complain.

    Having been in the military myself, I’ve been in fair number of countries including Somalia. And I know for a fact that what the Somalians complain about is a lack of government.

    Your statement is silly and absurd…

    What you mean is “you’re not a libertarian, so you’re silly and absurd…so there, nyah!”

  105. #106 pcarini
    August 9, 2008

    BaldApe @ 75:

    Besides, if people in the right lane are going 55, and I’m in the left lane going 65, I’m passing, right?

    Sure thing, just remember that it’s illegal in most states to not yield when a driver wants to go faster than you and you’re in the furthest left lane, even when they’re breaking speeding laws. It’s dangerous, misguided, and stupid to try to “enforce” the speed limit by driving it in the furthest left lane while ignoring the line of cars backing up behind you.** If people are zipping past you on the right while screaming and making obscene gestures, it isn’t because they’re assholes, but because you’re an idiot.

    With that I’ll humbly submit my hypothesis:
    There are two types of drivers on the freeway, idiots and assholes. Any driver who thinks the others are of one type is him/herself of the other.

    Not quite as catchy as George Carlin’s “maniacs and morons”, but I think it could gain some traction.

    **not you you, Bald Ape, you were advocating sanity

  106. #107 Bezoar
    August 9, 2008

    Not only is Bono annoying but U2 sux. Never understood why they ever got such acclaim.

  107. #108 LisaJ
    August 9, 2008

    Bezoar @ 107. Me neither.

  108. #109 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    “I now know I am talking to a life-long government guy with a 30,000 dollar HOBBY…
    This is a coherent answer? This is an ad hominem from a libertarian evangelist given because I don’t accept your arguments”.

    It wasn’t an “attack”, just an observation. For those who argue that “taxes” are for helping the poor and building roads and libraries, I note that a “public servant” on the federal payroll can afford to own and race 30,000 dollar boats. Meanwhile, my neighbors around here who struggle to pay their taxes to the feds, can afford a dog as a hobby.

    A small dog.

    “Having been in the military myself, I’ve been in fair number of countries including Somalia. And I know for a fact that what the Somalians complain about is a lack of government”. You mean they complain about the government they don’t have. They complain about the government that is broken by its ineffectiveness and tribal mentality… It’s a rather odd semantical debate not really worth having. Your original assertion, that American government must be fine because we are not Somalia, is also an odd argument.

    And speaking of Somalia… Ever add up just how much in US tax dollars went into Somalia? Ever tally up just how much good in the long run this investment accrued?

    Giving the US government all of this money to play war games in poor countries has a pretty dismal track record, on the whole, and I think the US population should question the reasoning behind continuing to give the US government the money in the first place.

    They can’t screw up the yard if they don’t have the toys…

    That’s not a libertarian view. That’s just common sense.

  109. #110 deang
    August 9, 2008

    It’s odd that the claims that the public is “tired” or “fatigued” about someone are always focused on public figures trying to do good works, like Bono and Obama, or on issues of good works, like “compassion fatigue”. Why are there never heavily publicized claims that Americans are “Newt Gingrich-fatigued” or “Rush Limbaugh-fatigued” or “war fatigued”? The surveys could surely be worded to get figures showing that Americans are fatigued by those sorts of harmful people and issues, too, and yet you never see that. Just like you never see the surveys showing that Americans are in favor of universal health care, even though such findings have existed for years. Why is that, I wonder?

  110. #111 aratina
    August 9, 2008

    I’ve had Bush fatigue for just about eight years now, but how in the world can anyone have Obama fatigue? No one is being forced to read, listen to, or watch the news stories on Obama. I find the media’s inability to critically reflect on itself astounding. What they really mean is that they can’t figure out a fresh perspective on Obama and are just rehashing the same tabloid trash and worn-out talking points on him over and over and over.

  111. #112 JoJo
    August 9, 2008

    It wasn’t an “attack”, just an observation. For those who argue that “taxes” are for helping the poor and building roads and libraries, I note that a “public servant” on the federal payroll can afford to own and race 30,000 dollar boats. Meanwhile, my neighbors around here who struggle to pay their taxes to the feds, can afford a dog as a hobby.

    I got it now. Because I didn’t take a vow of poverty when I joined the military, I’m to be despised. But you’re just whining because a government employee shouldn’t, in your opinion, be able to buy a sail boat. There’s the minor points that you have no idea as to what my family’s finances are (hint: My wife has been gainfully employed for years but never by the government) or even when I bought the boat (hint: I retired from the Navy 15 years ago and immediately got a job paying considerably more than what I made in the Navy).

    But let’s consider what I did in the Navy. At one point, I was the captain of a nuclear powered fast attack submarine. When I took command I literally signed for over a billion dollars worth of equipment. I had 125 highly trained technicians and supervisors working for me. I was personally responsible for the safe operation and maintenance of a nuclear power plant. I won’t mention a few other bits like having control of expensive ordnance, etc. A civilian given that type of responsibility would have made at least $150K per year (and that was in the late 1980s). I assure you that I was paid nowhere near $150,000 per annum. You and your fellow taxpayers got a real deal by having a naval officer as a submarine captain instead of privatizing the job.

    You mean they complain about the government they don’t have. They complain about the government that is broken by its ineffectiveness and tribal mentality… It’s a rather odd semantical debate not really worth having.

    Translation: Oops, it’s true that the Somalis would like a real, functioning government and complain that they don’t have one, but I can’t make that admission. So I’ll pretend it’s just an “odd semantical debate” and back away.

    That’s not a libertarian view. That’s just common sense.

    You’re right. Something can’t be a libertarian view and common sense. The two are incompatible.

  112. #113 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    JOJO-

    You don’t have to justify your career choices to me. My Uncle was career Navy, my closest cousin is career Navy (a psychiatrist, no less) with two tours in Iraq. Pops was 14 years Air Force…

    Which means I see (or hear) first hand where the money goes.

    If you want to justify taking money from poor folks and spending it on cruising around the Pacific in submarines, I’ll let you have at it.

    Me? I have trouble identifying the why for’s for bases like Yukosuka and their financial drain on regular Americans.

    It seems the last reasonable American military foray was back in ’45, and yet we act as if we (meaning the US government) is the glue holding the world together.

    I’ll ask again, was the money taken from poor local folks and spent on Somalia worth it? What about Vietnam? Did we get our money’s worth?

    How about Iraq? Is Joe on the corner better off because he was taxed to kill Muslims in Fallujah?

    The Navy is now setting up a blockade to keep Iran from getting benzene and such.

    Iran. A little country with some big mouth politicians…

    Do you approve of taking money from the local grocery clerk and spending it on fuel and man-power to blockade Iran?

    Do tell!

  113. #114 JoJo
    August 9, 2008

    Scott, you don’t like the military and what it does. You especially don’t like some of the missions assigned to the military by the civilian leadership. That’s a whole different argument than “how dare you as a government employee have the gall and the wherewithal to buy a sailboat.”

  114. #115 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    I’ll say it again, your sailboat is just a symbol. I am not accusing you of any wrong-doing. You most likely served your country respectably and well, and as a result, had a nice time of things.

    Fine.

    But for those people who argue that paying tax to the federal government is a “good” and progressive and humane thing, I merely point out what they do with your money.

    You aren’t getting government, you are getting geo-political manipulation, which has resulted in the cruel deaths of millions.

    If you paid that income to a local government, you would be getting libraries and schools and things which the average liberal progressive covets for their society.

  115. #116 JoJo
    August 9, 2008

    You aren’t getting government, you are getting geo-political manipulation, which has resulted in the cruel deaths of millions. If you paid that income to a local government, you would be getting libraries and schools and things which the average liberal progressive covets for their society.

    If you don’t like what the military does, then send different people to Washington. In this country, as in all Western countries, the military does what the civilian leadership tells it to. This is a good thing. Militaries are generally poor at running countries.

    I am not going to argue whether having a military is a better or worse thing than having other governmental services. That debate becomes too emotional too quickly. Besides, my bias is obvious.

    Nice talking to you, Scott. We’ll have to do it again sometime.

  116. #117 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    “If you don’t like what the military does, then send different people to Washington”.

    Yes.

    AND, remove the incentive to meddle by removing the funds used for that meddling, namely, taxes paid to Washington.

    Pay them instead, to your local firehouse and school and health clinic…

  117. #118 Wookster
    August 9, 2008

    “How about Iraq? Is Joe on the corner better off because he was taxed to kill Muslims in Fallujah?”

    No, no one is better off by the money collected from our taxes being spent in Iraq (well, except the executives of Halliburton, etc.). That, however, is not a valid argument against taxation, but an argument against the way that money is spent. Would Joe on the corner be better off if he was taxed to pay for schools, health care, etc.? DAMN RIGHT HE WOULD BE! Unnecessary spending is not the same thing as unnecessary taxation. Go take a look at the education budget in any state. To start with, look at California, which is facing a 10% cut in it’s education budget this year. 900 employees were handed pink slips this year in San Diego alone. Should we be spending billions in Iraq? Of course not. Are there legitimate uses for that money? Of course.

  118. #119 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    “That, however, is not a valid argument against taxation, but an argument against the way that money is spent”.

    If I lived on a checkerboard I would agree with you. But since I have been thrown out of Wonderland…

    I never made the “no tax” argument. I made the argument that the federal government takes too much of the tax, and has too much power over where it goes (and also spends it in wanton ways).

    If they were limited in how much revenue they could collect, they would be limited in how much they could errantly spend. That’s my argument.

    One whopper of a mistake on the federal level, ends up costing the local communities as you suggest.

    Since trying to get a good guy in the White House hasn’t worked all that well, there is an old approach, which could do the trick.

    Get rid of the IRS and federal income taxes. Completely.

    Let the federal government run on tariffs and very little else.

    Turn to your state governments and ask them to provide the services you would like. If they need more cash, well, you now have a population unburdened by the federal income tax. They will be far more amenable to paying higher local taxes that go directly to where they are required for local services.

    If there is corruption in the local system, well, at least locals have a chance to remedy the situation themselves.

    As it is now, if 49% of the country objects to where Washington ships their cash, its tough titty for four miserable (or eight) years.

  119. #120 gex
    August 9, 2008

    We as a nation have strategically decided to offshore a lot of our manufacturing to China, in part because they don’t have the environmental regulations we have. It’s pretty f-ing obnoxious of us to complain about the pollution we helped deliberately cause.

  120. #121 gex
    August 9, 2008

    “Maybe my “selfish genes” don’t like the idea of government telling me where the income I earn should be distributed. I do donate to charity. I am very specific of where I donate. I don’t want it going to administrative costs.”

    Because while you deserve to earn and keep as much as you want, the people who do the important social work that you support should be compensated as little as possible.

  121. #122 truth machine, OM
    August 9, 2008

    Is anyone feeling me here?

    I’m feeling your stupid. Honestly, I’ve never seen so moronic a post here.

  122. #123 truth machine, OM
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of having to choose the lesser of two evils in the general election rather than a candidate I truly care about and support.

    I’m tired of morons who refer to the better of two choices as “the lesser of two evils”. A reminder for these cretins: it was the worse of two choices who won the election in 2000 and 2004.

  123. #124 ike
    August 9, 2008

    I have two words for ya Brett Favre.

  124. #125 Spencer Kent
    August 9, 2008

    Someone at (RED) responded to this on the original site:

    “This petition is full of misstatements about (RED) that the simplest Google search would uncover. (RED) has raised more than $109 million for the Global Fund in just two years – ALL of this money goes to AIDS programs in Africa, with NO overhead (or advertising money) taken out.
    This money is funding AIDS programs in Ghana, Lesotho, Rwanda and Swaziland that have already helped put more than 80,000 people on lifesaving antiretroviral treatment and helped provide 369,000 pregnant women with counseling and services to reduce the risk of mother-to-child-transmission of HIV…
    First, I want to state that the $100M figure you mention and the basic premise of your argument about the allocation of corporate marketing dollars are wrong.
    (RED) has not spent any money on advertising. (RED) gets the corporations to spend a portion of their EXISTING marketing budgets on promoting (RED) products. In response to the notion of why companies don’t just donate their marketing budgets, the simple fact is that corporations are not in the business of donating marketing budgets. They are in the business of creating products, marketing them and delivering value for their shareholders. (RED) intersects that process and convinces them to channel some of this power to raise funds to buy AIDS medicine for people who otherwise couldn’t afford them. If these companies weren’t advertising (RED) products, they’d be advertising regular products that don’t generate money for the emergency of AIDS in Africa AND they definitely would not be donating those budgets.
    The only part of a corporation that is the business of ‘donating’ is generally the corporate foundation. We purposefully do not go through the foundations for this partnership. We engage the business sectors because our goal is to create a sustainable flow of dollars to the fund, not a one-time handout. This goes back to basics of “WHY” (RED) was formed. (RED) was designed to create a SUSTAINABLE flow of private sector dollars to the Global Fund (www.theglobalfund.org). The Global Fund was created in 2002 and designed to be a public/private partnership i.e. to get money from governments and business. However, it is first four years it had raised $50B from government and just $5M from business (by approaching corporate foundations for support). We needed a new way to engage business in helping to address one of the worst healthcare crisis of our times. So, (RED) was created – with the basic concept of engaging business in a way that made good business sense and creating this sustainable flow of dollars for the Global Fund.
    As for the money raised, over $60 million has been raised through the sale of (PRODUCT) RED goods and over $40 million was raised through the (RED) Sotheby’s auction. 260 million media impressions were also garnered through the publicity around the (RED) Auction and the fact that it was raising money to buy drugs that cost 40 cents per day for people who can’t afford that amount to stay alive. We are in the business of raising money and awareness and it seems to make sense to do both at the same time when we can. The auction would not have been possible if the (RED) brand did not exist. It was because of the brand awareness and the excitement around it in the marketplace that many of these artists were willing to participate and one of the reasons why there was so much support to produce an event of that magnitude. All of these things work hand in hand and help build momentum that will raise even more money over time. And, as (RED) grows and matures, you will see our model continue to do more new things that surprise and, at the end of the day, raises the most money possible for the Global Fund to help finance AIDS programs in Africa.
    At the end of the day, (RED) is just one way for people to get involved. It does not replace charity, volunteerism, government participation and other avenues to help. It is all of these things working together that will help address the greatest social issues of our time – not each thing working separately and in isolation.”

    It’s more than a little dishonest of Aaron to not update his spiel to say that he’s been corrected – (RED) hasn’t spent any money of advertising, it’s partners who advertise their products anyway that have spent a normal share of their ad spends proportionally on (RED) computers/skateboards/shoes, etc.

  125. #126 Scott from Oregon
    August 9, 2008

    Some young buck put together this rather simple but smartly explained video about taxes and the military…

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=byebxE9k4vo

    Be careful, he says the word “f$cked in it I think twice…

  126. #127 LisaJ
    August 9, 2008

    Truth Machine @ #122.

    Well that wasn’t very nice. I’m obviously new to this blogging thing, so give me a break. Thanks.

  127. #128 Wowbagger
    August 9, 2008

    LisaJ,

    I doubt you’ll get a break from truth machine. He’s not exactly known for his restraint – but don’t take it personally; he’s like that with everyone. Most of the ‘big name’ regulars have incurred his wrath on more than one occasion.

  128. #129 Alan Kellogg
    August 9, 2008

    LisaJ, #127

    Tact and Truth Machine had a messy divorce some years ago.

  129. #130 LisaJ
    August 9, 2008

    Hmmm, so it seems. Good to know. Thanks guys.

  130. #131 Wowbagger
    August 9, 2008

    Alan Kellogg,

    I think it’s probably more accurate to say that TM beat tact to death a shovel and buried it in a shallow grave down by a creek somewhere.

  131. #132 Wowbagger
    August 9, 2008

    With. To death with a shovel.

    Crap. He’s going to come after me now.

  132. #133 Carlie
    August 9, 2008

    I’m tired of morons who refer to the better of two choices as “the lesser of two evils”. A reminder for these cretins: it was the worse of two choices who won the election in 2000 and 2004.

    No fucking kidding, but there’s still a huge difference between “halfway decent when compared to shit” and “good”.

  133. #134 negentropyeater
    August 9, 2008

    Could it be, simply, that the USA is just, too big ?

    Compare USA and the European Union : not the same type of organization.

    In Europe there is clear resistance from the people to go all the way to a centralized government, with for example a joint army and other things the USA “enjoys”.

    As a European, I’ve always been a social democrat. But I must say, in the case of the USA, I think a certain number of the arguments of the Libertarians I have found actually interesting.

    Could it be that what the fundamental problem of the USA is, is that it is too big ?

  134. #135 Sondra
    August 9, 2008

    I’m surprised at some of the comments here about politics; you still don’t know what Obama stands for, voting for the lesser of two evils, all politicians are the same and Obama fatigue.

    For people with scientific minds this is all very illogical. The primaries went on for 18 months. The Republicans had many debates and the Democratic candidates had 21 of them. Add to that the last few months when we have had just 2 candidates and that is about a year of opportunity to find out what they all are saying.

    How can you not know? How can you look at all the data and not come to the conclusion about which candidate is more representative of your own views?

    Perhaps what you really mean is that you are tired of the specious coverage that MSM is dishing out.? When the focus is on lapel pins, whose preacher is more obnoxious and the other silly things that get air time and print space, it’s time to find alternative sources for real political information.

    Most of you are saying you are young. To me that means you have never really experienced media that wasn’t dominated by corporations that are determined to keep you uninformed, but entertained. There are lots of other good sources and well informed intelligent people who know how important this next election is.

    Do go out and try to find them. You are too smart to let them lead you around like sheeple.

  135. #136 Carlie
    August 10, 2008

    Sondra, being tired is not the same as apathy. And not knowing what Obama stands for doesn’t mean not having done the research; it means that he’s contradicted himself and he’s made declarative statements that are in opposition to his own party platform. “Lesser of two evils” also does not mean lumping the two candidates together, it means that one is entirely unacceptable, but the other doesn’t share all of my political views either. I personally am quite uncomfortable with a Democratic candidate who says that abortion is an option only after a woman consults with her husband and clergyman about it, for instance. Please don’t lecture everyone on not knowing what they’re talking about when you have no idea yourself what people do and don’t know.

  136. #137 faux mulder
    August 10, 2008

    seeing a lot of misconceptions about china in these responses…

    first, yes, the air is terrible, but not nearly as terrible as it’s going to get, and don’t be so quick to point fingers, coal will be what saves the u. s. economy, at what cost? hate to be cassandra, but coal fired plants are the way of the future for the states, get used to it, and get a mask.

    secondly, all this drivel about the communists. puhleeze, you think mao was bad? what choice was there, chiang kai-shek? thought that support for that dipshit had died out with time magazine and claire booth luce. tony soprano would be a better choice than chiang.

  137. #138 Wookster
    August 10, 2008

    “If they were limited in how much revenue they could collect, they would be limited in how much they could errantly spend.”

    Yes, but they would also be limited they could PROPERLY spend, which is a BAD thing, given the state of health care and education in this country. How many billions have we spent in Iraq? Do you have any idea what that amount of money would do to fix the education system in this country? How about the $1 billion the federal government has spent on abstinence only sex ed? That would go a long way as well. The problem is not HOW MUCH the government spends, but ON WHAT.

  138. #139 Scott from Oregon
    August 10, 2008

    Wookster- “Yes, but they would also be limited they could PROPERLY spend, which is a BAD thing, given the state of health care and education in this country”.

    You either haven’t read a word I wrote, or you’re just dumb.

    I have no polite words…

  139. #140 deang
    August 10, 2008

    “it was the worse of two choices who won the election in 2000 and 2004″

    Do people really still not know that Bush definitely stole the 2000 election and almost certainly also stole the 2004 election?

  140. #141 Wookster
    August 10, 2008

    “You either haven’t read a word I wrote, or you’re just dumb.”

    There’s a difference between not having read a word you wrote, and not agreeing with a word you wrote. But please, continue arguing by calling those who disagree with you names. That’s definitely the most intelligent way to make a point…

  141. #142 Scott from Oregon
    August 10, 2008

    “There’s a difference between not having read a word you wrote, and not agreeing with a word you wrote”

    I gave you a perfectly reasonable method for improving health and education. You didn’t disagree with it, you just failed to address it or perhaps comprehend it.

    What you said–

    “Yes, but they would also be limited they could PROPERLY spend, which is a BAD thing, given the state of health care and education in this country. How many billions have we spent in Iraq? Do you have any idea what that amount of money would do to fix the education system in this country?”

    I’ll say it again. IF you remove the right to tax from the federal government, and allow the states to implement their own systems for health care and education (something they try to do while limited due to the amount of tax flowing into the federal coffers) you will remove the possibility of the federal government pissing away your taxes on overseas military adventures and ill-concieved military spending in general.

    You will limit the federal government being able to just run off to war at the whim of a Commander in Chief.

    You will defund the military’s troubling interventions such as the amassing of a naval blockade of Iran (an act of war), which is occuring right now while you cry about where your tax dollars are not going.

    Why do you want to keep giving the corn cobs to the people who reem you for profit?

    Dumb is a good word to describe someone who keeps doing that

  142. #143 Wookster
    August 10, 2008

    “allow the states to implement their own systems for health care and education ”

    Now THERE’S a good idea. Especially given the actions of school boards in places like Florida, Texas, Kansa, etc. You seem to assume that state governments are somehow inherently more capable of wisely using tax dollars. Why not simply limit the areas that the federal government is allowed to spend our tax dollars on to education, health care, etc. A difficult task to accomplish, but not nearly as impossible as what you are suggesting.

    “You will limit the federal government being able to just run off to war at the whim of a Commander in Chief.”

    This already exists. Read article 1, section 8 of the constitution sometime. What we need is a congress that will stand up the executive branch rather than allowing the president to run roughshod over the constitution.

  143. #144 Scott from Oregon
    August 10, 2008

    “Now THERE’S a good idea. Especially given the actions of school boards in places like Florida, Texas, Kansa, etc. You seem to assume that state governments are somehow inherently more capable of wisely using tax dollars”.

    How each state malfunctions is not my problem, it becomes the problem of the citizens of that state. Where do you get the idea that the federal government can or has done better?

    Your argument is– give it all to one entity because smaller entities might screw up. But you are the first to admit the larger entity ALREADY has screwed up.

    States that screw up only effect (for the argument, 1/50th of the Nation, instead of the whole nation.

    You prefer screw ups to affect everybody and that’s just dumb.

  144. #145 Wookster
    August 11, 2008

    “You prefer screw ups to affect everybody and that’s just dumb.”

    How do you know what I prefer? If it were up to me government’s sole purpose would be to provide basic services to its people like education and health care, and otherwise get the hell out of the way. I was merely pointing out that the more you regionalize your government, the more likely it is that a group of crazy bastards takes over part of it and oppresses those who disagree with them. “…a wise and frugal government, which shall restrain men from injuring one another…”

  145. #146 gaypaganunitarianagnostic
    August 11, 2008

    Oh, don’t worry about bad terrible awful Barak Obogyman. The Repubs will steal this election too. Won’t that make you happy?

  146. #147 sjburnt
    August 11, 2008

    nervouswreck; You are not alone. There are Republicans and Libertarians and others out here who are not superstitious.

    However, wookster does make a powerful argument at #78…!

    It would seem fitting to have a rational argument without party politics on a site like this. Hopefully, we can all develop a thick enough skin to let the politics slide and deal with the more important issues.

    I would rather deal with a rabid liberal than a rabid religious nut. At least the conversation can have an empirically based conclusion.

  147. #148 angel
    August 11, 2008

    bono hasn”t done any hands on work for aids in africa.he takes vacations in france every year but take family on life changing experience for his family. or another car or add on to his hotel more floors for his friends big party he is only a fat indulgent king of self gratifications.he only nobs with money and won”t talk to people in coach to sundance. he has money now for medicne for aids how dare he let those people die in the mean time like oprah they”re dieing now . all high indulgence.aids is only to keep then in sight next album. other wise people would forget old rockers who refuse to die.

  148. #149 truth machine, OM
    August 14, 2008

    No fucking kidding, but there’s still a huge difference between “halfway decent when compared to shit” and “good”.

    Compared to Obama, Carlie, you are a pile of mixed shit and vomit. You think that Obama is only “halfway decent” and isn’t “good” because you’re a fucking ignoramus and a self-absorbed ass.

  149. #150 truth machine, OM
    August 14, 2008

    I personally am quite uncomfortable with a Democratic candidate who says that abortion is an option only after a woman consults with her husband and clergyman about it, for instance.

    Obama never said any such thing, you lying ignorant ass. He has a 100% reproductive rights rating from NARAL — gee, why would that be?

  150. #151 truth machine, OM
    August 14, 2008

    “Lesser of two evils” also does not mean lumping the two candidates together, it means that one is entirely unacceptable, but the other doesn’t share all of my political views either.

    Well, isn’t that incredibly fucking stupid. No one shares all your political views, but that doesn’t make them all evil, nor does it make you evil (there are other reasons for that) that you don’t share all of their views.

  151. #152 truth machine, OM
    August 14, 2008

    Here is Obama on reproductive rights, including his statement that the lying sack of shit who says she has “done the research” so dishonestly mispresented:

    http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/elections/statements/obama.html