Pharyngula

So McCain has picked Sarah Palin as VP. Supposedly she has some credibility as a good choice for dealing with energy issues, but near as I can tell she’s of the drill-in-marginal-areas school, not someone who’s going to pursue alternative energy sources, and is going to be a favorite of the oil companies — Dick Cheney with a less evil face. Worst of all, from my perspective, she also has a history of pandering to creationist ignorance, promoting the bogus ‘teach the controversy’ nonsense in the absence of any real scientific controversy.

Guess I won’t be voting Republican this year.

Comments

  1. #1 ~Doc~
    August 29, 2008

    What? The most desperate choice in American political history didn’t sway you? The selection of a creationist wingnut who hates polar bears because they get in the way of drilling off the coast of Alaska didn’t nudge you over the edge? A first term Alaskan governor with one year of experience (not counting being the former part-time mayor of a town with a population of 6,000 didn’t make you run down to McCain headquarters and grab a big handful of McCain/Palin ’08 bumper stickers?

    What’s WRONG with you?

    ~Doc~

  2. #2 SES
    August 29, 2008

    Guess I won’t be voting Republican this year.

    Was that ever a serious consideration???

  3. #3 Ben
    August 29, 2008

    Is evolutionist ignorance superior to creationist ignorance? Just wondering. I would believe it all evolved, but I just don’t have that much faith.

  4. #4 Tom P.
    August 29, 2008

    How could you think she isn’t qualified? Two years ago she was the mayor of a town of 7,000 people. Of course she is ready to lead a nation of 350 million. So on the serious side, now how do they go after Obama not being qualified? Does anyone honestly believe that if McCain dies in office that Palin is ready to lead the US?

  5. #5 freelunch
    August 29, 2008

    This is a bit like bringing up a pitcher from Single-A baseball right before the World Series.

  6. #6 delosgatos
    August 29, 2008

    Ben:
    Is evolutionist ignorance superior to creationist ignorance? Just wondering. I would believe it all evolved, but I just don’t have that much faith.

    Science… yer doin it wrong.

  7. #7 Pierre
    August 29, 2008

    Sarah Palin is also anti abortion and anti gay rights. Typical republican, I guess.

  8. #8 Warren
    August 29, 2008

    This has the mark of Rove. By selecting a woman, McCain hopes to rope in all the Hilltards (Shrilltards?) who would be happy to elect Bush to a third term just out of spite, since their Anointed One didn’t get the nod.

    The part that bothers me is that some of them are probably stupid enough to actually do it.

  9. #9 Qwerty
    August 29, 2008

    Don’t you mean Darth Vader in drag! Isn’t she Darth Vader’s sister Ella?

  10. #10 clinteas
    August 29, 2008

    She’s a mother of 5 with a firm stance on abortion,that would seem to fit the profile for a rep VP nicely tho.
    I guess thats McCain’s attempt at appealing to female voters.
    I had never seen or heard of her before,but she looks a little creepy.

  11. #11 Deepa
    August 29, 2008

    I think it was a savvy move on McCain’s part. She might help him appear pro-woman despite his policies.

  12. #12 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    This to me seems like an obvious pander to the cross over Hillary voters. IMHO that group is already demonstrating a lock of rational thought so the choice of a female from a state with little to no voting power and relatively unknown to the lay person comes off as pandering to them. I mean look SHE IS A WOMAN.

    Now just so someone doesn’t get on my case, I’m not saying a woman would automatically mean he was pandering to the Hillaridiots, and that a woman vice presidential candidate wouldn’t be a good choice for him, just that this virtually unknown one does. And if I’m right that should anger woman voters, especially the Hillary cross overs, but you know it won’t.

    Sure she has the energy choice to appeal to some of the Republican base and has her other issues as noted above but how many joe (jane) six packs not from Idaho and Alaska knew who she was before this?

  13. #13 David Roberts
    August 29, 2008

    So lets see if I got this straight. In order to woo the “woman ” voters who felt left behind because of the Obama V Clinton thing, they chose a woman who is as as far from Clinton as possible. “Those girls will vote for ovaries every time” is thieve logic. Just how shallow to they take women for?

  14. #14 Rey Fox
    August 29, 2008

    “Guess I won’t be voting Republican this year.”

    D’oh, so close…

  15. #15 Qwerty
    August 29, 2008

    She’s suppose to be good on foreign affairs because (get this) Alaska is close to Russia and the Russia/Georgia conflict is in the news! At least this was someone’s take on right-wing radio news this morning! *gag* *gag*

  16. #16 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    lock = lack

    KoT

  17. #17 Chiropter
    August 29, 2008

    …Dick Cheney with a less evil face.

    Is she going to shoot someone in the face? I’m a one-issue voter. I’ll vote for any VP candidate who shoots their friends in the face.

  18. #18 freelunch
    August 29, 2008

    She might help him appear pro-woman despite his policies.

    And hers.

  19. #19 SteveC
    August 29, 2008

    Ben: “I would believe it all evolved, but I just don’t have that much faith.”

    This sentence betrays the fact that Ben, deep down, knows that there is something horribly wrong with the entire concept of faith.

  20. #20 Mmm Palin
    August 29, 2008

    She looks hot.

  21. #21 aarrgghh
    August 29, 2008

    something tells me that 60 puma votes is not gonna swing the election …

  22. #22 Tom P.
    August 29, 2008

    I think what we saw from the convention was that those Clinton voters going to McCain were always a myth. They were mad that Hillary didn’t get the nod but when push comes to shove they would rather have the right to choose and protection in the workplace. When the dust settles, Hillary voters wil vote Obama.

  23. #23 Woozle
    August 29, 2008

    Ben The Troll: Yes, an ignorant supporter of science (“evolutionist”) is probably more knowledgeable than an ignorant creationist.

    For one thing, any creationist is automatically one up on any “evolutionist” in the ignorance area, in a big way.

    /me apologizes for feeding the trolls… but it’s been so long since I had fresh troll meat…

  24. #24 Northern Virginia
    August 29, 2008

    “So on the serious side, now how do they go after Obama not being qualified? Does anyone honestly believe that if McCain dies in office that Palin is ready to lead the US?”

    I’m sure McCain’s dying in office is not seen as a problem. Don’t you worry you’re pretty little head. These nice men will take care of everything. You just go to the ladies room and freshen-up – put on some lipstick, and touch up your hair. Just like you’re daddy – we’ll take care of everything.

  25. #25 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Is evolutionist ignorance superior to creationist ignorance? Just wondering. I would believe it all evolved, but I just don’t have that much faith.

    Fatih ur doin it rong

  26. #26 Matt Heath
    August 29, 2008

    ZOMG! Can’t stay here. Must see what Wonkette have to say

  27. #27 Qwerty
    August 29, 2008

    Sara Palin was also a runner-up in the Miss Alaska contest some years ago; so, she is already use to playing second fiddle.

    And Tom P. is right. McCain’s Obama has no experience argument goes out the door with this selection.

    But she is a hockey mom! This should play well with hockey moms in Minnesota!

  28. #28 Dan B.
    August 29, 2008

    Ha, I had just read about this myself, and was coming over here to report back on our new “teach the controversy” VP nomination. There’s no beating you to commenting on any news, is there PZ?

  29. #29 kid bitzer
    August 29, 2008

    #22–
    yup. there never was a large contingent of ‘clintons for mccain’, just a small noise amplified a zillion times by the republican (fox news) echo machine.

    this looks like the last throes of the mccain campaign.

  30. #30 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    I think what we saw from the convention was that those Clinton voters going to McCain were always a myth. They were mad that Hillary didn’t get the nod but when push comes to shove they would rather have the right to choose and protection in the workplace. When the dust settles, Hillary voters wil vote Obama.

    Yes I agree that most will. But I do believe there is a group that will not or will not vote.

    maybe

  31. #31 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    (Repost from “Vice-presidential material…” thread)
    She’s apparently very keen on protecting fetuses (anti-choice), but equally keen on killing actual people (lifetime member of NRA, supporter of capital punishment). Hates gays (“marriage should be between a man and a woman”), anti-environmentalist and prepared to reject science for ideological reasons (uses the codeword “sound science”, “rejects global warming hysteria”, opposes listing the polar bear as endangered, supports drilling for oil in the ANWR).

  32. #32 Matt Heath
    August 29, 2008

    Wonkette actual seems to have crashed under the weight of people rushing to see what they have to say about 2 of their running jokes as running mates

  33. #33 amk
    August 29, 2008

    And there was I thinking the Conservative Movement didn’t like affirmative action.

  34. #34 Qwerty
    August 29, 2008

    In other news Camp Bar, a gay bar in St. Paul, will be open until 4am during the convention. Bars in Minneapolis/St. Paul usually close at 2am.

    This gives all those closeted Republicans another two hours to find the boy-de-juer unless they’re still in the stalls at MSP airport!

  35. #35 Hans
    August 29, 2008

    Not only is this an obvious overture to the Hillary-or-the-deluge crowd, it also defangs Biden in the VP debates. He just won’t be able to attack Palin as hard as he would a male VP candidate, because people would feel sorry for her, and he’d come across as a big ole’ meanyhead.

  36. #36 Matt Penfold
    August 29, 2008

    This Palin person may have a pretty face, although I am not convinced of that. But being attractive is about much more than not looking like that back end of a bus, and her policies put her firmly in the not attractive category.

    Anyway I suspect she only ever got elected in the first place because people mistook her for Micheal Palin, who IS a nice person.

  37. #37 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    I would believe it all evolved, but I just don’t have that much faith. – Ben

    No faith needed Ben – you just have to look at the evidence.

  38. #38 Matt Heath
    August 29, 2008

    #36: Marcus Brigstoke had Michael Palin as 10 on a scale of goodness with Jesus at 9. He pointed out that even Christian have to accept that MP is “a bloody nice bloke”.

  39. #39 caerbannog
    August 29, 2008

    Dan Quayle in drag.

    It’s a hail-mary to get the closeted GOP cross-dressers out to the polls. And given the size of the GOP closet, we are talking about more than just a few voters here…

  40. #40 Carlie
    August 29, 2008

    Wow, they picked a woman. That’s…transparent.
    News flash – women aren’t that stupid.

  41. #41 DB
    August 29, 2008

    I wonder how McCain is going to connect this announcement with him being a POW?

  42. #42 Brian D
    August 29, 2008
  43. #43 No One Of Consequence
    August 29, 2008

    But now the republicans have virtually wrapped up that ever important swings state of Alaska and its 3 whole electoral votes.

    uhhh…errr

  44. #44 The Chemist
    August 29, 2008

    @ Qwerty,

    You seem like a sensible person. Why are you listening to Right-Wing Radio? Listen, this hurting yourself thing- it has to stop. There are plenty of people in the phonebook who can help. Just make the call. The wounds on your brain will heal in time.

    @ Everyone

    I didn’t much care for Obama’s choice, but McCain managed to outdo him by finding someone I agree with less. Way to bridge the gap for the voters Jimbo.

    This voting for the lesser of two evils thing…I don’t know, I think I might just stay home, but I’m seriously thinking about voting Nader.

  45. #45 JStein
    August 29, 2008

    I just love that McCain is trying to secure votes in Alaska. It seems so unbelievably stupid to me.

    Why isn’t he trying to get Virginia?

    Why isn’t he trying to get Florida?

    These are real swing states with real electoral votes.

    If he was putting someone phenomenal onstage against Biden, it’d make some sense to me, but Joe is going to make this woman look like an idiot.

  46. #46 Ghost of Minnesota
    August 29, 2008

    My first reaction to the announcement was, “Who?”

    After doing a bit of research, my next reaction was “Game over. Obama wins.”

  47. #47 Bro. Bartleby
    August 29, 2008

    Let’s see, governing Alaska is about as hard as governing Saudi Arabia.

    The Alaska state constitution claims common heritage rights of ownership of oil and other minerals for the people of the state as a whole.

    Citizen dividend checks are distributed every year in Alaska out of the interest payments to an oil royalties deposit account called the Alaska Permanent Fund (APF) created in 1976 after oil was discovered on the North Slope.

    Alaska relies on oil for about 80 percent of its revenue and has no sales or income tax. Alaska state government is mandated to invest 25% of its oil revenue into the APF while the other 75% of oil royalty revenue is dispersed to other government funds to finance education, infrastructure and social services.

  48. #48 Glen Davidson
    August 29, 2008

    “I don’t think there should be a prohibition against debate if it comes up in class. It doesn’t have to be part of the curriculum.”

    She added that, if elected, she would not push the state Board of Education to add such creation-based alternatives to the state’s required curriculum.

    I really wouldn’t complain about the stance there. Most of what I don’t like about it is the suggestion that there is any prohibition of debate when it comes up in class–not that it shouldn’t also be ended in a timely fashion.

    Mostly, well, she seems a rather safe choice for McCain. I do think Jindal reduced his chances when he signed the Lousisiana dumbing-down bill in his state.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7

  49. #49 hje
    August 29, 2008

    He couldn’t make the obvious and pragmatic choice of Romney, because evangelicals don’t like Mormons. Never did, never will.

    Right now Republicans are fervently praying that hurricane Gustav transforms itself into rainbows, flowers, and magic unicorns before it reprises Katrina. Jindal is back there trying to exorcise the demonic storm.

  50. #50 young european
    August 29, 2008

    So they wanted a woman, and not-too-old, and what other criteria? – and she was the best possible choice?

  51. #51 Dutch Delight
    August 29, 2008

    I actually listened to Al Gore’s speech (besides listening to both the Clintons, Obama, Kucinich and a bit of Kerry), he was going for the most secular speech of all, in my view, then ended it “god bless you”. Pretty funny to watch, I kept expecting him to go for the religious references but he stayed clear of them all where he had ample opportunity.

  52. #52 ppb
    August 29, 2008

    He should have gone with Wilford Brimley.

  53. #53 Qwerty
    August 29, 2008

    I listen to right-wing radio just to hear what the wing-nuts say. Also, it helps with the blood pressure as I usually find myself swearing after a few minutes. Most of the time (especially in the morning) I listen to Stephanie Miller and the Mooks.

    I also listen to Christian radio though I no longer believe in the Christ or that trinity thing or Budda or the skyfairy or whatever! But I would go to a FSM church if there was only one in the immediate vicinity! That’s caused I’ve heard the FSM is always sauced.

    Odd to think that Stephanie Miller who plays on Air American here in Minnesota is the daughter Goldwater’s running mate, William Edward Miller. It’s a small world.

  54. #54 kid bitzer
    August 29, 2008

    they wanted a woman, and not-too-old, and what other criteria?

    short. she had to be shorter than mccain. and she is.

  55. #55 Matt Penfold
    August 29, 2008

    Let’s see, governing Alaska is about as hard as governing Saudi Arabia.

    I think this is a little unfair. I suspect the rulers of Saudi Arabia might have a little more trouble sleeping at night given how they treat their populace.

  56. #56 notthedroids
    August 29, 2008

    I can’t believe that hardcore Republicans are at all happy with this inexplicable choice.

    From my perspective, I’m just waiting to enjoy the comedic debates.

  57. #57 Darth Wader
    August 29, 2008

    I can’t wait to see McCain’s acceptance speech. Obama gave his to a crowd of 80,000 cheering supporters.
    McCain will give his to a crowd of 80 awake supporters.

  58. #58 jj
    August 29, 2008

    Wow, they picked a woman. That’s…transparent.
    News flash – women aren’t that stupid.

    It just confirms Obama’s point that McCain “just doesn’t get it.”

    As if the disenfranchised Hilary supporters are suddenly going to vote for an anti-choice, creotard with almost zero experience just because she’s a woman. McCain’s camp seems to think that was the only criterion that Clinton supporters cared about.

    McCain choice of VP also destroys his argument about Obama’s inexperience. He’s now appointed probably the least experienced person in modern US history to a position that if elected would be a (very old) heart beat away from the presidency.

    This decision will work out well for Obama; it has made his campaign much easier.

  59. #59 young european
    August 29, 2008

    short. she had to be shorter than mccain. and she is.

    ha ha! just like Prince chooses his band :-)

    So is she a good enough player?

  60. #60 Greg
    August 29, 2008

    Glen, I don’t think she’s a safe choice at all for McCain, since his age and health are concerns in this election and everything about her is underwhelming. It was clearly a calculated choice to bring in a young face, start fighting the challenges levied by the democrats that McCain is more of the same, and to bring in the disenfranchised Hillary supporters who refuse to vote for Barack because of what happened in the primaries.

    I don’t see how McCain is going to spin this into a positive thing for his campaign. I agree that it may *seem* like a safe choice, but there is just too much room for the Democrats to knock her (and them) down. At least Barack had a multi-year history of good judgment, despite “absolute” experience. With Biden as his VP, they make a /formidable/ opponent, and I would (being a commie liberal) be more inclined to use the word “laughable” for this combination.

  61. #61 Josh
    August 29, 2008

    If anyone has some spare time, I would like to see the creationism business PZ linked to on her Wikipedia page. It’ll probably be deleted in seconds by the campaign, but it’s worth a shot.

  62. #62 RobertC
    August 29, 2008

    “I think this is a little unfair. I suspect the rulers of Saudi Arabia might have a little more trouble sleeping at night given how they treat their populace.”

    Yeah…and I bet in Saudi Arabia, if you use your office to carry out personal vendettas, you don’t get investigated like she is:

    http://www.ktva.com/ci_10026165

    She’s under investigation in the most corrupt state, largely due to its oil ties, that is run by the party that just sent up Ted Stevens (going to trial for illegal oil dealings) from their Senate primary.

  63. #63 patrickhenry
    August 29, 2008

    Nice lady, but look what I found (and put at my blog): Sarah Palin: Creationist?

  64. #64 Andreas Johansson
    August 29, 2008

    I just love that McCain is trying to secure votes in Alaska. It seems so unbelievably stupid to me.

    Why isn’t he trying to get Virginia?

    Why isn’t he trying to get Florida?

    These are real swing states with real electoral votes.

    Maybe he wants to give the impression he picked his running mate on merits rather than electoral mathematics?

  65. #65 Mrs. Peach
    August 29, 2008

    Hang on about the Hillary crowd. I don’t doubt that she still has some followers, but that whole PUMA crowd is a bunch of republicans trying their best to not only draw away some Hillary voters, but also create a huge rift where there isn’t one. Great for the media! At the same time they have the bonus of making Hillary fans look irrational and shrill. After seeing a video on them, I checked out their puma pac blog. It was so obvious when they talked about Michele Obama’s speech. All the typical republican talking points (liberals, lesbians, Chappaquiddick Ted) besides a reverence for Fox News, Glenn Beck, and Pat Robertson. And it was all started by a housewife who’s only donation, Hillary lover that she is, to John McCain. Just more republican dirty tricks. They learned well from Nixon.

  66. #66 Carlie
    August 29, 2008
  67. #67 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    I think there’s some misunderestimation of Palin here. I get the impression she’s an unscrupulous political panderer rather than an actual creotard or convinced AGW denialist; though if anyone knows different, I’m prepared to be convinced. Certainly a nasty piece of work on social issues, but that will enthuse the Rethuglican base. It’s also a far more imaginative choice than Obama’s.

  68. #68 octopod
    August 29, 2008

    Huh. So, yeah, it looks like they’re trying to rope in Clinton fans who don’t like Obama by…

    …picking a VP candidate who disagrees with her pretty much exactly on every policy point? Come on, this lady’s a member of Feminists for Life, lol.

    It’s official: McCain Just Doesn’t Get It.

    (Also, as someone points out at Shakesville: “She’s also under investigation, like all the other Alaska Republicans.”

  69. #69 norman conquest
    August 29, 2008

    What a bunch of whiney leftist snots. Game over. You lose. Another four years of adult leadership awaits us (eight, almost certainly).

  70. #70 Dee
    August 29, 2008

    Yeah, Obama gave his speech to a crowd of thousands with cheers and tears…but why is that? Because he’s a damn socialist, that’s why. He’s almighty, the “savior” of a world fallen attack to the dreaded Republicans. Give me a break. All I know is that if Obama gets into office, we may as well as move to a communist country, cause that’s where we’re headed. And Heaven forbid we have a woman in office who has more common sense and morality in one eyelash than most of the posters here! Where is America headed if this is the majority of the so-called citizens? I, for one, applaud McCain’s balls in choosing a female VP. If Faux-Bama had had half a brain, he’d have done the same…would have insured his vote. Now all he has is empty promises to throw at the dazed, delusioned masses.

  71. #71 Prof MTH
    August 29, 2008

    McCain is just pandering to the lowest militant sexist base. Lots of female Hillary supporters were already casting their dumbfuck vote for McCain either because Hillary did not win the primaries or chosen as VP under Obama. McCain is betting that some of the slightly less sexist Hillary supporters who would have still voted for Obama may now switch to McCain because he selected a woman and for no other reason. Many political talking assbots suggested that McCain would select a woman if Obama did not.

    This selection weakens McCain. He constantly criticizes Obama as being too inexperienced. He can no longer make that criticism since his VP choice has even less experience. Not that this will stop McCain from actually doing so.

  72. #72 David Roberts
    August 29, 2008

    But you know, if they were serious about this, wouldn’t Ms Rice be a far better choice? That way they could get two shallow factions: people who vote by gender only and people who vote on race only. Does the GOP actually think…. whoa! I’ll stop there.

  73. #73 octopod
    August 29, 2008

    @#69: Your stunning display of logic has overwhelmed and defeated us, William the Bastard.

    Seriously, why do people do this? I really don’t understand.

  74. #74 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    What a bunch of whiney leftist snots. Game over. You lose. Another four years of adult leadership awaits us (eight, almost certainly).

    hilarious.

  75. #75 Davet
    August 29, 2008

    The only thing I know about Sarah Palin is that she has a screechy voice. I can’t believe I have to listen to THAT for the next two months, till this is over.

  76. #76 BlueIndependent
    August 29, 2008

    Well, at the very least, he surprised probably everyone with this pick. I had never heard of her before, but her resume doesn’t impress, whether she’s young or not. I understand why he picked a female VP nominee, but I’m already thinking he’d pull more votes had he gone with Pawlenty.

  77. #77 Dutch Delight
    August 29, 2008

    Doesn’t McCain have the Ron Paul crowd to worry about?

  78. #78 Pete Cockerell
    August 29, 2008

    So in Palin’s 40s, a pretty risky age for any woman to get pregnant, she decided to have her *fifth* child. Or at least neglected to do anything about preventing pregnancy. An test in the 1st trimester would have revealed the presence of Down Syndrome, but she went ahead and had the baby anyway (not a big shock given her anti-choice stance, I guess). By what stretch of the imagination does this episode indicate that she exercises good judgment?

    If by some fluke McCain wins, I can only hope his ticker holds out for the first term.

    And to whoever said Palin’s hot: you need even bigger glasses than she wears.

  79. #79 Qwerty
    August 29, 2008

    “Posted by: norman conquest | August 29, 2008 12:49 PM

    What a bunch of whiney leftist snots. Game over. You lose. Another four years of adult leadership awaits us (eight, almost certainly).”

    Yea, and I am sure your party will also control Congress! Win or lose, McSame has made a pathetic choice, but I am sure you won’t read this as you’ve posted and run.

    Vote for your beauty pagaent VP! See if she wins. Creotard!

  80. #80 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    Dee,
    If you really think Obama is a socialist, your degree of disconnection from reality is dangerous – you could find yourself walking out of a tenth-floor window, thinking you can fly. Get urgent psychiatric help.

  81. #81 phantomreader42
    August 29, 2008

    Ben the brain-dead creationist troll @#3:

    I would believe it all evolved, but I just don’t have that much faith.

    Nick Gotts @ #37:

    No faith needed Ben – you just have to look at the evidence.

    That’s just the problem. His faith is much too pitifully weak to survive a look at the evidence. That’s why he hides in abject terror from reality. It’s a common affliction among creationists, they know the facts don’t back up their myths, so they have to pretend the facts don’t exist. Deep down, they know they don’t have a leg to stand on in the real world, so they wrap themselves up in their delusions as tight as they possibly can.

  82. #82 jj
    August 29, 2008

    Nick Gotts said,

    …get the impression she’s an unscrupulous political panderer rather than an actual creotard or convinced AGW denialist; though if anyone knows different, I’m prepared to be convinced.

    From the article linked to in post #63:

    In the Anchorage Daily News we found this, from 25 October 2006: Curveballs, about a television debate in which Sarah Palin participated: Here are some excerpts, with bold added for emphasis.
    Near the beginning of the article it says:
    Toward the end, moderator Michael Carey said people would be hearing all about the candidates’ views on things like public employee pensions and the pipeline over the next several days, and looked to change things up with a pair of curveball questions about religion:
    Is it OK for religious leaders to endorse candidates, and should public schools teach alternatives to evolution (such as creationism and intelligent design?)
    Here’s Palin’s response to that question:
    “Teach both. You know, don’t be afraid of information.
    “Healthy debate is so important and it’s so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.

    If it quacks like a creotard and thinks like a creotard…it’s a creotard.

  83. #83 The Chemist
    August 29, 2008

    @ JStein

    I just love that McCain is trying to secure votes in Alaska. It seems so unbelievably stupid to me.

    Why isn’t he trying to get Virginia?

    Why isn’t he trying to get Florida?

    These are real swing states with real electoral votes.

    If he was putting someone phenomenal onstage against Biden, it’d make some sense to me, but Joe is going to make this woman look like an idiot.

    Um, hate to point this out, but Biden is from Delaware. Delaware also has a measly three electoral points.

  84. #84 bunnycatch3r
    August 29, 2008

    What would it have taken for you to have voted Republican?

  85. #85 Steve_C
    August 29, 2008

    Dee. I call poe!

  86. #86 KC
    August 29, 2008

    When I read the announcement in my paper this morning, I inwardly groaned. I generally like Palin – she’s way better than the alternatives – but a) she’s going to make a shitty VP (and eventual president, when McCain kicks it) and b) her being on the ticket is going to drag my home state of Alaska through the mud. We’re already getting referred to as some po-dunk, permanently intoxicated wasteland where we subsist on welfare and PDF cheques. And it’s not even been two hours.

  87. #87 varlo
    August 29, 2008

    m I mistaken, or is this not the first time in modern history when the two candidates of a major party came from two such low-population, hence low Electoral College, states?

  88. #88 Dave Eaton
    August 29, 2008

    “Those girls will vote for ovaries every time”

    Maybe not, but I want to wait for data before dismissing this. Her pro-life stance is probably more likely to affect her than being a creationist, and might well chase women away. But many are smarting over perceived chauvinism, and might not sit still for a woman, even one they disagree with, being dissed.

    The only thing I know about Sarah Palin is that she has a screechy voice.

    I think is exactly where Obama supporters need to be careful. Some women felt like there was a lot of misogyny coming from Obama’s people (See the blog TalkLeft for examples). Committed feminists might not vote McCain/Palin , but any whiff of sexism could have them stay home.

    Anybody who expects either side to waltz away with the presidency is kidding themselves, so it makes good sense not to alienate support casually.

  89. #89 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    jj@82,
    I dunno – I’d seen what you link to already, and it seems quite consistent with the pandering hypothesis to me. Indeed, the fact she mentioned being a science teacher’s daughter could be taken as a coded signal to Rethuglicans who happen to be sane on this one issue: “Of course I don’t believe that creationist crap, but come on, we need the creotards on board to keep the libruls out.”

  90. #90 Aaron
    August 29, 2008

    Any takers on a bet that he picked a woman VP to possibly gain some pull among women voters who were otherwise swooned by Obama’s suave ways?

    Pretty smart on his part, although it kind of seems like a gambit.

  91. #91 Rob in Memphis
    August 29, 2008

    Good news! McCain just lost a big portion of the Southern Baptist vote, because even though they agree with her on their pet issues–anti-same-sex marriage, anti-abortion, etc.–if McCain dies in office it’ll put one of those… those women in charge and according to Gawd and Jebus that would be the worst thing ever.

    “I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.”–Timothy 2:11

    This is one instance where instead of decrying decisions made on the basis of religious ignorance and intolerance, I’m all for it. (And having to live down here in Fundagelical Plastic Jesusland, I’m also completely in favor of anything that pisses off the Southern Baptists.)

  92. #92 Brownian, OM
    August 29, 2008

    Teach both. You know, don’t be afraid of information.
    Healthy debate is so important and it’s so valuable in our schools. I am a proponent of teaching both.

    Like almost all republicans, she’s a fucking liar, since she supports abstinence-only sex ed.

    Oh, and Octopod: people like norman conquest and Ben show up to deliver content-free soundbites because that’s what the No Intelligence Allowed party has taught them to pass off as ‘thinking’.

  93. #93 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Um, hate to point this out, but Biden is from Delaware. Delaware also has a measly three electoral points.

    But Biden has HUGE Pennsylvania ties. He’s even referred to sometimes as PENN’s third senator.

    And beyond that Biden is way more well known and has a much longer public track record than Palin so his being a Delewarian (is that even a word?) doesn’t play as much as Palin’s Alaskinianism (/shrug)

  94. #94 Matt Penfold
    August 29, 2008

    Dee,

    You seem to have been absent when where ever you went to school did politics.

    Socialism is not the same thing as communism. Indeed some of the most vehement oponents of communism have been socialist. Did you never study George Orwell (Eric Blair) at school ?

    And the idea that Obama is a socialist is simply laughable, and only someone totally ignorant of politics would think that.

    Why did you bother posting what even you must have known are such idiotic comments ?

  95. #95 Brownian, OM
    August 29, 2008

    All I know is that if Obama gets into office, we may as well as move to a communist country, cause that’s where we’re headed.

    Why bother moving? Conservatives love corporate welfare and corporate handouts–they just don’t admit it.

  96. #96 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Yeah, Obama gave his speech to a crowd of thousands with cheers and tears…but why is that? Because he’s a damn socialist, that’s why. He’s almighty, the “savior” of a world fallen attack to the dreaded Republicans. Give me a break. All I know is that if Obama gets into office, we may as well as move to a communist country, cause that’s where we’re headed. And Heaven forbid we have a woman in office who has more common sense and morality in one eyelash than most of the posters here! Where is America headed if this is the majority of the so-called citizens? I, for one, applaud McCain’s balls in choosing a female VP. If Faux-Bama had had half a brain, he’d have done the same…would have insured his vote. Now all he has is empty promises to throw at the dazed, delusioned masses.

    SQUAWK!

  97. #97 PZ Myers
    August 29, 2008

    You know, if he had picked Neil deGrasse Tyson as his running mate, I would have seriously considered voting Republican this year. So it it possible.

  98. #98 Kurt
    August 29, 2008

    The Southern Baptist vote is already well-experienced with thinking around rational challenges.

    They will simply convince themselves that if McCain kicks it there will be the appropriate white male puppetmasters behind the scenes actually running things.

  99. #99 S.Scott
    August 29, 2008

    @ Rob #91 –

    “I’m also completely in favor of anything that pisses off the Southern Baptists.”

    You just made me Swoooon! :-)

  100. #100 jj
    August 29, 2008

    From Obama’s campaign Spokesman Bill Burton:

    “Today, John McCain put the former mayor of a town of 9,000 with zero foreign policy experience a heartbeat away from the presidency. Governor Palin shares John McCain’s commitment to overturning Roe v. Wade, the agenda of Big Oil and continuing George Bush’s failed economic policies — that’s not the change we need, it’s just more of the same.”

    Aaron #90,

    Pretty smart on his part, although it kind of seems like a gambit.

    Not really, not if the goal was to attract any Clinton supporters. I suspect women voters who support anti-choice as Palin does, would’ve voted for McCain anyway, whether McCain had a female VP or not.

    His choice was transparent and obvious pandering.

  101. #101 Darth Wader
    August 29, 2008

    Well lets see here.
    McCant attacked Obama for being inexperienced, and picks one of the lest experienced politicians

    McCant attacks Obama for being a celebrity, and picks a former beauty pageant contestant

    McCant attacks Obama for making a “bad choice” with Biden and then makes one of the worst VP picks of all time

    McCant; Committed to Failure

  102. #102 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    You know, if he had picked Neil deGrasse Tyson as his running mate, I would have seriously considered voting Republican this year. So it it possible.

    Maybe… I love NDT but that’s a tough call.

  103. #103 Kryth
    August 29, 2008

    WTF?
    He must be sleeping with her. How the hell else could you explain this. Talk about executive’s privilege!

  104. #104 Screechy Monkey
    August 29, 2008

    “The only thing I know about Sarah Palin is that she has a screechy voice”

    You say that like it’s a bad thing.

  105. #105 Dutch Delight
    August 29, 2008

    Given the supreme court at the moment it wouldn’t make sense to vote republican even if he had a resurrected Carl Sagan as running mate.

  106. #106 Epikt
    August 29, 2008

    Dee:

    I, for one, applaud McCain’s balls

    Please confine that behavior to men’s-room stalls at the airport. Though with the republican convention in town, there might be a line.

  107. #107 Matthew
    August 29, 2008

    Watching Palin’s speech in a noisy cafeteria I was able to overhear some phrases like “dangerous… Iran… missiles” and “McCain has fought for America.” Towards the end every other word seemed to be “change”, and the speech ended with the obligatory “god bless America”.

    The entire thing was such a blatant attempt at stirring the emotions (using fear) of the listeners, and focused almost entirely on the presidential candidate’s qualifications, as the VP speeches do, with nothing much that I remember about Palin herself (except that she’s the mother of a troop, which apparently does not mean having way more than five children).

  108. #108 Brownian, OM
    August 29, 2008

    Maybe… I love NDT but that’s a tough call.

    Plus, what if they were both driving somewhere and they got into a serious accident and some of NDT’s brain matter accidentally came into contact with McCain’s anti-brain matter? The universe could be totally annihilated!

  109. #109 Xmoon
    August 29, 2008

    but near as I can tell she’s of the drill-in-marginal-areas school, not someone who’s going to pursue alternative energy sources

    Any energy policy needs to look at near term, medium term and long term in one cohesive picture. Near term includes new oil sources to sustain the existing society. Long term is the heavy development of alternative energy, and it has to be EVERYTHING, including modern fission plant designs. The medium term is figuring out how to best transition.

    The main driver for this to happen is a healthy economy and government incentives for massive R&D. Period. All else is political bullshit. This fantasy that we can kick the economy in the nuts with restrictions, and then magically switch over to green power with the current state of the art is lower than preschool fantasy.

    There is not an either-or situation. Everything must be pursued. Anything else is a false dichotomy caused by debilitating ideology and diseased intellects.

  110. #110 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Plus, what if they were both driving somewhere and they got into a serious accident and some of NDT’s brain matter accidentally came into contact with McCain’s anti-brain matter? The universe could be totally annihilated!

    Thankfully my office door was closed when I read that

  111. #111 jj
    August 29, 2008

    Nick Gotts,

    it seems quite consistent with the pandering hypothesis to me. Indeed, the fact she mentioned being a science teacher’s daughter could be taken as a coded signal to Rethuglicans who happen to be sane on this one issue.

    Doubtful. It not as if the Repub party isn’t littered with creotards and IDiot supporters. The far more likely scenario is that she’s really is one. That she could be, is not at all inconsistent with her position regarding other policies or with the republican leadership and support base.

  112. #112 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    I, for one, applaud McCain’s balls – Dee

    Is this some exotic sexual practice I haven’t heard of? Sounds rather painful for the applaudee, but maybe that’s the point?

  113. #113 raven
    August 29, 2008

    We’ve entered the Twilight Zone. Or the Outer Limits.

    McCain is 72 and had cancer (melanoma) several times. He is rumored to be showing absent mindedness, a common occurrence in older people. He could drop dead any time.

    His VP is far more likely than the usual to end up president.

    The US has a recent tradition of scouring the land looking for the worst possible candidate. And then electing them. As improbable as it seems, McCain and his collection of weirds has a solid shot at the presidency.

    The dems didn’t do much better. They had 8 years to come up with a viable candidate and couldn’t do it.

  114. #114 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Is this some exotic sexual practice I haven’t heard of? Sounds rather painful for the applaudee, but maybe that’s the point?

    It follows the foot tap

  115. #115 peter
    August 29, 2008

    “alternative energy sources” are the alibi of the left/green factions: I admire anyone who’s honest enough to call the emperor’s clothes on that. In Germany, the famous wind generators produced energy at the rate of 17% of installed capacity last year. That’s an economic and environmental disaster. Solar might in the very long term be viable closer to the equator, but certainly not in European latitudes. Meanwhile, we have the left demonising the only plausible environmentally sound alternative, nuclear energy.
    If democracy is about voting for the lesser evil, I might prefer this lady.
    Peter

  116. #116 Tom P.
    August 29, 2008

    We wouldn’t want a socialist running the country or we might get the kind of economic justice they have in Sweden!

  117. #117 ethan
    August 29, 2008

    There is no way in hell that Neil would ever run for office on the Republican ticket.

  118. #118 Grammar RWA
    August 29, 2008

    1. Sarah Palin wants women to die instead of receiving life-saving medical care.
    2. Sarah Palin is trying to play to both sides of the aisle, pro-choice and anti-choice. She’s a flip-flopper.

    http://community.adn.com/node/126122
    “Governor Palin has made it quite clear that she is disappointed that this [partial birth abortion] legislation did not pass under Senator Green’s leadership.”

    http://www.adn.com/legislature/story/356245.html
    “An amendment to include an exception when the mother’s physical health is at risk failed.”

    So she wanted a mother-killing bill to pass.

    http://community.adn.com/bluemarine/node/102328?page=1
    She avoids comment by saying that her hands are tied by Roe v Wade. “I’m going to respect the sensitivity and the privacy aspects of this issue and as governor, I will abide by the laws that have been interpreted by the Supreme Court.”
    She refuses to say what she would do about abortion if she could. “Theoretical, hypothetical questions that have to do with a subject like this, that are being led by a campaign in order to divide, it’s unfortunate. That’s my final comment on it.”

    http://alaskaprochoice.org/
    She hangs out with the Planned Parenthood crowd.

    She plays to both crowds delicately. A true flip-flopper, unmatched in acrobatic skill even by Romney.

  119. #119 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Meanwhile, we have the left demonising the only plausible environmentally sound alternative, nuclear energy.

    That is changing.

  120. #120 Quiet Desperation
    August 29, 2008

    I saw one picture where she looks like Dustin Hoffman as Tootsie.

    So I can vote for [1] folks that want to rape and murder my early retirement or [2] Tootsie & The Melting Man.

    *sigh*

    Seriously, is there a real Galt’s Gulch? Anywhere? Please invite me. Please? I have mad engineering skillz. Please? I know about municipal power and solar systems because I’ve been thinking of doing some panels at my house. PLEASE???

  121. #121 Grammar RWA
    August 29, 2008

    Meanwhile, we have the left demonising the only plausible environmentally sound alternative, nuclear energy.

    Obama is pro-nuclear energy. How did you miss this fact?

  122. #122 Kobra
    August 29, 2008

    So she’s opposed to a woman’s right to a safe medical procedure, she’s a conservative Intelligent Design advocate, she doesn’t support the rights of two people who love each other to get married, etc.

    WHY did he pick HER of all people?

  123. #123 Quiet Desperation
    August 29, 2008

    she’s of the drill-in-marginal-areas school

    So she does anal.

    No, you didn’t just read that. Move along.

  124. #124 Sven DiMilo
    August 29, 2008

    environmentally sound

    …because the long-sought solution to the waste-disposal problem–a BIG problem!–is…?

  125. #125 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    Xmoon@111.
    Tosh. First, there do not appear to be large new sources of oil or gas that are extractable at costs anywhere near existing ones. In particular, those available anywhere in the USA are tiny compared to annual demand. You think the oil companies haven’t been looking? Second, big savings in both monetary costs and greenhouse gas emissions can be made quickly by increasing energy efficiency and reducing demand. Quite a lot of this will happen anyway because of the recent price rises, as it did in the 1970s and early ’80s – the thing is to help it along and lock it in with regulation this time.

  126. #126 Capital Dan
    August 29, 2008

    But… but… She’s hot! And, as someone on Fark said: “Maybe that’s what McCain meant when he was talking about drilling in Alaska.”

    Baaaa-zing!

  127. #127 Chiroptera
    August 29, 2008

    Wow. Xmoon and peter. Did petroleum industry PR flacks Google “Sarah Palin” to check out what came up?

  128. #128 Brian D
    August 29, 2008

    Xmoon, Peter: Obviously, neither of you have looked at the breadth of current permanent energy. They suggest nuclear, forgetting that it’s impossibly expensive even after billions in government subsidies (expensive enough for Warren Buffet to write off plant plans after sinking $13 million into R&D!) and takes ten years before it starts delivering (even before you notice that its fuel is non-renewable and controlled by other foreign interests — so much for energy independence).

    Note that this doesn’t even begin to encroach on the traditional anti-nuclear points of proliferation and waste management. It’s going to be part of the solution, but naively thinking that the US can be like France and generate 80% of its power from nuclear sources (note to self: Find out exactly when the Republicans started wanting to emulate the French), in spite of higher per-capita consumption, is disingenuous to say the least.

  129. #129 Grammar RWA
    August 29, 2008

    Good news! McCain just lost a big portion of the Southern Baptist vote, because even though they agree with her on their pet issues–anti-same-sex marriage, anti-abortion, etc.–if McCain dies in office it’ll put one of those… those women in charge and according to Gawd and Jebus that would be the worst thing ever.

    “I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent.”–Timothy 2:11

    Correction, that’s 1 Timothy 2:12.

    And the 1 in front of Timothy is necessary, it’s the first book of Timothy.

  130. #130 peter
    August 29, 2008

    Rev. BigDumbChimp, Grammar RWA
    “Obama is pro-nuclear energy. How did you miss this fact?” .- pure ignorance, and living in Europe –

  131. #131 tim Rowledge
    August 29, 2008

    So (wrt Bro.Bartleby @ #47) Alaska is a socialist state? Cool. Sounds like a good talking point to me next time some wingnut fires up.

  132. #132 Scott Hatfield, OM
    August 29, 2008

    Guess I won’t be voting Republican this year.

    I am shocked, absolutely shocked.

  133. #133 jj
    August 29, 2008

    Unlike the Biden choice, McCain’s pick presents many opportunities to challenge his VP decision.

    Rep. Rahm Emanuel:

    Is this really who the Republican Party wants to be one heartbeat away from the Presidency? Given Sarah Palin’s lack of experience on every front and on nearly every issue, this Vice Presidential pick doesn’t show judgment: it shows political panic.

    From the non-partisan group Campaign Money Watch:

    In choosing Governor Palin, Senator McCain is clearly trying to shore up his past maverick reformer image – an image that is now in tatters due to the type of campaign he’s run and the big money lobbyists he depends on every day of the week.

    This selection raises plenty of questions,” Donnelly continued. “She bills herself as a reformer, but has been silent on whether she supports public financing of elections in her own state. As governor of an oil-producing state, she’s been a friend to Big Oil. Given John McCain’s extensive fundraising from Big Oil, her selection raises concerns of whether the McCain-Palin ticket will promise the same access for oil companies and their lobbyists that we’ve seen for nearly eight years from the Bush-Cheney administration.

    McCain really doesn’t get it. His choice helps Obama’s campaign.

  134. #134 XMoon
    August 29, 2008

    Tosh. First, there do not appear to be large new sources of oil or gas that are extractable at costs anywhere near existing ones. In particular, those available anywhere in the USA are tiny compared to annual demand.

    That’s part of the whole R&D thing, you know? New sources? The oils shales under Utah and Colorado, if they could be made 50% exploitable, contain three times the reserves of Saudi Arabia.

  135. #135 OrchidGrowinMan
    August 29, 2008

    Qwerty #9:
    Ella Vader is going down….

  136. #136 XMoon
    August 29, 2008

    Chiroptera: Wow. Xmoon and peter. Did petroleum industry PR flacks Google “Sarah Palin” to check out what came up?

    Have I stumbled into an ideological cesspool here?

    One third of what I said was to find new oil sources to meet *immediate needs*. The other two thirds (IOW, the majority of my post) advocated heavy R&D into alternate energy and how to eventually transition to them. Did you miss that or ar you being a deliberate dunce?

  137. #137 Ethan
    August 29, 2008

    Not the first time he’s gone for a Beauty Queen.

    “…McCain’s first wife, Carol, who was a famous beauty and a successful swimwear model when they married in 1965.”

    Disgusting.

  138. #138 Dave
    August 29, 2008

    From NYTimes.com:
    “They’re beyond ecstatic,” said Ralph Reed, the former head of the Christian Coalition. “This is a home run. She is a reformer governor who is solidly pro-life and a person of deep Christian faith. And she is really one of the bright shining new stars in the Republican firmament.”

    Ms. Palin is known to conservatives for choosing not to have an abortion after learning that she was carrying a child with Down syndrome. “It is almost impossible to exaggerate how important that is to the conservative faith community,” Mr. Reed said.

    Who the fuck is Ralph Reed and why should any type of Christian faith community have anything to do with her credentials? Oh I know why. Because that is how all conservative republicans are. Church and state, my friends. Church and fucking state. That should be enough to decide the election, but alas… people are stupid.

    That said here is why I’m going to vote for McCain:
    http://iblogfromwork.blogspot.com

  139. #139 tim Rowledge
    August 29, 2008

    I, for one, applaud McCain’s balls – Dee
    Is this some exotic sexual practice I haven’t heard of? Sounds rather painful for the applaudee, but maybe that’s the point?

    I came across (stop sniggering in the back or I’ll have you whitewashing gravel!) this in a ‘Sin City’ episode a few weeks back whilst channel surfing between Galactica episodes or whatever. Very strange sort of pleasure….

  140. #140 XMoon
    August 29, 2008

    BiranD: OK, so forget about nuclear. Have fun with that. I’d argue the obsolescence of your points, but I suspect it would be a fruitless effort based on some of the other responses I have gotten for the sin of expressing a balanced POV that tries to focus on some sort of big picture. Good luck to you.

  141. #141 Matt Penfold
    August 29, 2008

    That’s part of the whole R&D thing, you know? New sources? The oils shales under Utah and Colorado, if they could be made 50% exploitable, contain three times the reserves of Saudi Arabia.

    So you can guarantee this can you ? If you think it is better to gamble on technology becoming available that may, but then ,may not, allow cheap oil extraction from shale rather than invest in proven technologies that are known to reduce energy consumption then you are more of a fool than I thought you were.

  142. #142 raven
    August 29, 2008

    That’s part of the whole R&D thing, you know? New sources? The oils shales under Utah and Colorado, if they could be made 50% exploitable, contain three times the reserves of Saudi Arabia.

    This is just dumb. It is true that the oil shales contain vast quantities of oil. Just not recoverable economically. Exxon spent a billion bucks on an oil shale plant and it worked OK, just cost more to extract than it could be sold for. There is nothing stopping anyone from exploiting oil shale except the certainty of going broke.

    The earth also contains huge amounts of heat. The outer core is liquid iron. So what, doesn’t help us much either.

    Ditto nuclear fusion.

    Might just as well hope someone invents zero energy extractors aka perpetual motion machines.

    IMO, the major crisis facing civilization is energy, even more so than global warming. Hand waving, wishful thinking, and magical thinking aren’t going to solve it.

  143. #143 karen marie
    August 29, 2008

    i fell out of bed laughing when i heard the announcement that palin is mccain’s vp pick.

    people are actually discussing this as if it were not the most laughable choice and done strictly as a pander to teh 28% deadenders.

    only in the bizarro-world that the united states has become is this even a possibility.\

    it’s the numbskull ticket of mccain and palin! whoo-hoo!

  144. #144 Matt Heath
    August 29, 2008

    She’s a Heath by birth. We suck at running things. One of us was prime minister of the UK for a bit. He sucked. (NB This is silliness; i do not in fact subscribe to this form of nominative determinism.)

    The names of kids should be a campaign issue though: Trig? Track? That’s pure lack of judgment.

  145. #145 RichardPena
    August 29, 2008

    @BrianD: the advancement of fission power plant designs is far beyond what you seen to be talking about. Nuke power *is* a very distinct possibility. No one said anything about 80% like France. You’d do well to research *current* designs, how the waste issue is more political than anything scientific., how many modern designs have very little waste, and *that* waste can be used in a different type of power plant. As for proliferation, isn’t “oh noes teh terrorists” a GOP talking point?

  146. #146 Darth Wader
    August 29, 2008

    X-Moon: “That’s part of the whole R&D thing, you know? New sources? The oils shales under Utah and Colorado, if they could be made 50% exploitable, contain three times the reserves of Saudi Arabia.”

    By the time we can exploit that oil, demand would have already risen beyond the benefits of doing so. This is not even a short term solution.

    Were going to have a rough run regardless of where we put our money. I just think its a better idea to not waste our time money and energy on drilling for more oil.

  147. #147 Chiroptera
    August 29, 2008

    XMoon, #136: One third of what I said was to find new oil sources to meet *immediate needs*.

    Yes, you did. But then when pointed out that there is no oil that will meet short term energy needs you stated: That’s part of the whole R&D thing, you know?

    Yeah. R&D to meet short term needs.

    -

    Have I stumbled into an ideological cesspool here?

    Why? Did you just crawl out of one?

  148. #148 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    “They’re beyond ecstatic,” said Ralph Reed, the former head of the Christian Coalition. “This is a home run. She is a reformer governor who is solidly pro-life and a person of deep Christian faith. And she is really one of the bright shining new stars in the Republican firmament.”

    OH BOY! Man-child Ralph Reed likes her!

    She’s got my vote.

  149. #149 XM
    August 29, 2008

    This is just dumb. It is true that the oil shales contain vast quantities of oil. Just not recoverable economically.

    I don’t get it. I’m talking about the future, about finding new ways of doing things we haven’t been done before. I don’t get a response along the lines of “it didn’t work well before”. OK. I’m sure the first solar panel worked for shit as well. Would you prefer they abandoned the idea?

    There is an amazing about of resistance to the concept of new R&D and finding new ways of doing things here. I thought this was a pro-science oriented blog? I give up. Have fun, kids. I’m going somewhere where there’s a little more optimism for what the human animal can achieve.

  150. #150 peter
    August 29, 2008

    Brian D @128
    do I understand you correctly – “It’s going to be part of the solution”, and you can say that despite the objections you raise? We are not so far apart then. What I find dishonest in the green faction is the way they tout their solutions as being all gain and no pain: with energy as with politics, it’s a question of the lesser evil.

  151. #151 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    In Germany, the famous wind generators produced energy at the rate of 17% of installed capacity last year. – peter

    Peter, if you want to be taken seriously, you need to give the source of that figure (I can’t find it), and also show that it’s relevant. Germany currently gets 6% of its electricity from wind (much less than Denmark at 19%), but plans to increase this to 20% by 2020. No one source is the solution, but the process of building nuclear stations, even ignoring its drawbacks, is simply too slow to make enough difference on a global scale. Here’s what the IPCC Working Group III “Summary for Policymakers” says for the period up to 2030
    http://www.mnp.nl/ipcc/pages_media/FAR4docs/final_pdfs_ar4/SPM.pdf, p.13:

    “Given costs relative to other supply options, nuclear
    power, which accounted for 16% of the electricity supply
    in 2005, can have an 18% share of the total electricity
    supply in 2030 at carbon prices up to 50 US$/tCO2-eq,
    but safety, weapons proliferation and waste remain as
    constraints.”

  152. #152 stogoe
    August 29, 2008

    Isn’t she the governor who used her political power to harass and fire a state trooper?

  153. #153 Grammar RWA
    August 29, 2008

    Isn’t she the governor who used her political power to harass and fire a state trooper?

    Yep.

  154. #154 Orac
    August 29, 2008

    Guess I won’t be voting Republican this year.

    As if there ever were a chance you’d vote Republican this year.

  155. #155 Chiroptera
    August 29, 2008

    XM/XMoon, #149: I’m talking about the future, about finding new ways of doing things we haven’t been done before.

    You’re talking about several things which don’t quite add up to your initial point. Are new petroleum sources an immediate need or a medium/long term need?

    -

    I don’t get it.

    You sure don’t!

    -

    I’m going somewhere where there’s a little more optimism for what the human animal can achieve.

    ‘Bye. Don’t let the door hit you on the ass on your way out.

  156. #156 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Isn’t she the governor who used her political power to harass and fire a state trooper?

    Her ex-brother in law if I am correct.

  157. #157 llewelly
    August 29, 2008

    Palin is a good pick for McCain because most of the press will love using it to accentuate their delusion that McCain is a maverick. They’ll also use it to accentuate their delusion that a significant portion of Hillary supporters might vote for McCain. Palin would be a rotten VP on many respects (‘good on energy issues’ is code for ‘hates solar, wind, and a climate safe for humans’, she’s a creo, etc), but from a strategic standpoint this is one of the smartest things McCain has done.

  158. #158 Jason
    August 29, 2008

    @70
    LOL, have you checked Obama’s voting record. He’s to the right of Richard Nixon (and McCain is just left of 1930′s fascists). America is the most right wing country in the developed world, and also the only one that effectively demonizes the world socialist.
    Even Dennis Kucinich (probably the only one that wouldn’t recoil at the word socialist) is only slightly to the left compared with the political parties of the developed world. But America seems to insist on widening their already unbelievable GINI coefficient, catering to the needs of the unimaginably wealthy (never before in human history has so much wealth been concentrated in so few hands).
    At least the Libertarians, who have provided the Republicans with the whole of their intellectual muscle for the past 50 years, have finally had enough with the Jesus freaks and warmongers, and are beginning to splinter. (I still disagree with the Libertarians, but at least I can respect them)
    America needs a socialist president right now. The only shame is that Obama (as per his voting record) is relatively pro-corporate, and will likely end up being a ‘diet’ republican (same bad policy direction, but at least half the calories).

  159. #159 Matt Penfold
    August 29, 2008

    I don’t get it. I’m talking about the future, about finding new ways of doing things we haven’t been done before. I don’t get a response along the lines of “it didn’t work well before”. OK. I’m sure the first solar panel worked for shit as well. Would you prefer they abandoned the idea?

    Well you claimed extracting oil from shale was a SHORT-TERM solution. What that means it that it is has to work now, and all that is needed is to invest in plant.

    However the technology does not exist at present. Thus it is NOT a short-term solution despite what you claim. It may be worth further investment in research, but anything that requires more research is not a short-term project. It could be that further research does not result in improved processes for extracting oil from shale. It would be very foolish to rely on research producing results within a few months, which is what you seem to be claiming it will.

  160. #160 jimmiraybob
    August 29, 2008
  161. #161 Sili
    August 29, 2008

    Guess I won’t be voting Republican this year.

    Sexist.

  162. #162 Sili
    August 29, 2008

    What would it have taken for you to have voted Republican?bunnycatch3r | August 29, 2008 1:06 PM

    Egnor. In the bar. With an icecream scoop.

  163. #163 llewelly
    August 29, 2008

    I wonder how McCain is going to connect this announcement with him being a POW?

    That’s easy. McCain’s experience as a POW obviously makes up for Palin’s inexperience.

  164. #164 Matt Penfold
    August 29, 2008

    Sexist.

    Assuming you are not employing sarcasm, how is this sexist ?

    PZ seems to have rejected Palin as a suitable VP candidate based on the policies she espouses. That it is not sexist. Had he said he could not vote for a female politician, then that would be sexist.

  165. #165 Chiroptera
    August 29, 2008

    peter, #150: What I find dishonest in the green faction is the way they tout their solutions as being all gain and no pain….

    Well, that’s not being green, that’s being American. Americans insist that the gravy train keep going on forever, and without any changes in life style or work or effort.

  166. #166 Tom P.
    August 29, 2008

    There has been talk about drilling in the Utica shale in upstate NY to get natural gas. Because the drilling method carries a risk of pollution to the underground water supply it is under investigation but it could be a good source of natural gas in the medium-term.

  167. #167 XMoon
    August 29, 2008

    I fully admit I didn’t post things as clearly as I could have and jumbled things. My only real point is that we have to look at the complete picture. We can’t block out big chunks of it for ideological reasons. One side seems to want to stop oil use ASAP while the other doesn’t even want to look into alternatives. Somewhere in the middle lies the solution, but there seems to be so few people considering that.

  168. #168 llewelly
    August 29, 2008

    Orac:

    PZ:

    Guess I won’t be voting Republican this year.

    As if there ever were a chance you’d vote Republican this year.

    I’m sure that if the Republicans had nominated Gore and Kucinich, PZ would have voted Republican.

  169. #169 Ranson
    August 29, 2008

    Of course, if getting to new oil soon is a concern, I’m sure the petroleum companies will just drill the unused offshore leases they already have, rather than waste time trying to get their hands on properties in sensitive and/or coastal areas, right? Right? I mean, that second thing would just be a means to utilize fears about a looming energy crisis to blatantly line their own pockets and get their hands on properties that had been denied them by reasonable regulation. Wouldn’t it? They wouldn’t do that.

  170. #170 Samia
    August 29, 2008

    So Palin’s a crappy pick based on her qualifications and political positions, and she does nothing to tone down the barrel of crazy that is John McCain. I don’t see the need to compare this woman to a drag queen, say she looks like a man, or make comments about how she must be sleeping with her running mate, then follow it up with a rather paternalistic assumption that American woman are in Obama’s pocket. Sheez.

  171. #171 Dave
    August 29, 2008

    “I’m sure that if the Republicans had nominated Gore and Kucinich, PZ would have voted Republican.”

    Sorry could you repeat that? The was a huge “if” in the way of what you wrote.

  172. #172 Paul
    August 29, 2008

    “I’m sure that if the Republicans had nominated Gore and Kucinich, PZ would have voted Republican.”

    No he wouldn’t, because Gore and Kucinich would then be the Bad Guys.

  173. #173 BluesBassist
    August 29, 2008

    From my perspective, there is virtually no difference between the major party candidates; they are all anti-liberty, raving statists. So we might as well have a MILF as the VP. (Not that I could actually vote for the Republican ticket without vomiting.)

  174. #174 Samia
    August 29, 2008

    *women

  175. #175 Badjuggler
    August 29, 2008

    Michael Palin would have been a MUCH more interesting choice.

    Spam spam spam spam…

  176. #176 peter
    August 29, 2008

    Nick Gotts @151
    Nick -
    the figure is from a closely argued article in FAZ (Franfurter Allgemeine Zeitung) a few months ago.
    The article itself doesn’t seem to be available on the net.
    There are references to it here:

    http://21stcenturyschizoidman.blogspot.com/2008/01/wind-power-reduxand-return-to-planned.html
    and here:
    http://factclipper.com/en/node/833/pdf

    which in fact claims that the author gave a figure of 10% return on installed capacity! That’s not correct, and I’m pretty sure he referred to 17%.

    Source Information Publication name: Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung Article (Web): Und was passiert bei Windstille? Writer’s name: Christian BartschDate published: 2008/01/29

  177. #177 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    I don’t see the need to compare this woman to a drag queen, say she looks like a man, or make comments about how she must be sleeping with her running mate, then follow it up with a rather paternalistic assumption that American woman are in Obama’s pocket. Sheez.

    Agree. Her positions and actions and near anonymity is enough.

  178. #178 Ghost of Minnesota
    August 29, 2008

    One side seems to want to stop oil use ASAP while the other doesn’t even want to look into alternatives. Somewhere in the middle lies the solution, but there seems to be so few people considering that.

    There’s something very funny about this statement, but I’m not quite sure exactly how to explain it. It’s like an infinite tunnel of false dichotomies looping back upon itself, collapsing into a black hole of false-dichotominess.

  179. #179 Bryson Brown
    August 29, 2008

    Xmoon: Funny thing about extracting oil from shale– EROEI declines precipitously. It’s way worse than oil sands, which are already a GHG disaster for the planet. I’m guessing you’re some species of global warming denier, so that probably won’t worry you. But the economics of extracting large amounts of shale are worse than converting coal to oil, and (allowing anything reasonable for environmental costs) far worse than wind or solar (which have never benefitted from the subsidies and tax breaks the oil and nuclear industries have enjoyed). Do you really want to keep on pouring more and more capital into producing less and less viable forms of oil and fossil fuels, regardless of environmental impact?

  180. #180 Tabby Lavalamp
    August 29, 2008

    Wow. I didn’t even get 15 posts in and already the misogyny is choking.

    This has the mark of Rove. By selecting a woman, McCain hopes to rope in all the Hilltards (Shrilltards?) who would be happy to elect Bush to a third term just out of spite, since their Anointed One didn’t get the nod.

    The part that bothers me is that some of them are probably stupid enough to actually do it.

    This to me seems like an obvious pander to the cross over Hillary voters. IMHO that group is already demonstrating a lock of rational thought so the choice of a female from a state with little to no voting power and relatively unknown to the lay person comes off as pandering to them. I mean look SHE IS A WOMAN.

    Now just so someone doesn’t get on my case, I’m not saying a woman would automatically mean he was pandering to the Hillaridiots, and that a woman vice presidential candidate wouldn’t be a good choice for him, just that this virtually unknown one does. And if I’m right that should anger woman voters, especially the Hillary cross overs, but you know it won’t.

    Sure she has the energy choice to appeal to some of the Republican base and has her other issues as noted above but how many joe (jane) six packs not from Idaho and Alaska knew who she was before this?

    Because, you know, those irrational women voters couldn’t possibly have any reason to not like Obama as the candidate, so they must be tards and idiots. They definitely couldn’t be bright enough to see through the GOP and loathe Palin’s stance on so many issues.
    One of the things that has soured so many women – and some men too – on not just Obama but the Democrats is crap like this. The fauxgressives who have been belittling women through this entire campaign.
    The sad thing is, I don’t even think it’s being done intentionally for the most part. But come on, think about what you’re saying here. For much of history we’ve had to put up with crap about women being “irrational”, so how the hell do you think saying shit like “a lack of rational thought” is going to go over?
    Are some women angry enough that they’re going to vote for McCain? Unfortunately, yes. But that’s because of the ridiculous two party system that keeps them from giving their vote to a third party candidate. Personally, if I could vote in the US, it would be for Cynthia McKinney. The good thing is, many women and men are going to vote for her. The best thing that could come out of these horrible presidential choices would be an upswing in support for other parties.

    Two last things…
    The irony of referring to Clinton as the “Anointed One” in light of all the treatment of Obama as a messianic figure is just wonderful.
    And “Shrilltards”? Really? Why not just go ahead and tell female voters to shut up and make you a sandwich?

  181. #181 Chiroptera
    August 29, 2008

    Samia, #170: …then follow it up with a rather paternalistic assumption that American woman are in Obama’s pocket.

    I don’t think this is what people are saying.

    -

    I don’t see the need to compare this woman to a drag queen, say she looks like a man, or make comments about how she must be sleeping with her running mate….

    But this I agree with completely!

  182. #182 Sven DiMilo
    August 29, 2008

    You’d do well to research *current* designs, how the waste issue is more political than anything scientific., how many modern designs have very little waste, and *that* waste can be used in a different type of power plant.

    …and then that waste gets used in another power plant, ad infinitum. Yay! perpetual motion solves the energy crisis!
    If you don’t think there are legitimate, extant scientific issues with nuclear waste disposal you’re either a kool-ade-drinking shill for the industry or a fool.
    Some links to your information would help; anybody can assert anything.

  183. #183 Hairy Doctor Professor
    August 29, 2008

    #36: Anyway I suspect she only ever got elected in the first place because people mistook her for Micheal Palin, who IS a nice person.

    The CNN announcement this afternoon was something like “McCain picks Palin for VP” and I have to confess that my very first thought was “Michael Palin?”. Aside from the whole not-a-US-citizen issue, picking someone from Monty Python has either an air of appropriateness to it or an air of desperation (or both). And, yeah, Michael Palin is a nice person. I’d rather him as VP than a lot of legitimate candidates. Cuttlefish: any riffs on “I’m a lumberjack and I’m OK?”

  184. #184 Bryson Brown
    August 29, 2008

    Xmoon: Funny thing about extracting oil from shale– EROEI declines precipitously. It’s way worse than oil sands, which are already a GHG disaster for the planet. I’m guessing you’re some species of global warming denier, so that probably won’t worry you. But the economics of extracting large amounts of shale are worse than converting coal to oil, and (allowing anything reasonable for environmental costs) far worse than wind or solar (which have never benefitted from the subsidies and tax breaks the oil and nuclear industries have enjoyed). Do you really want to keep on pouring more and more capital into producing less and less viable forms of oil and fossil fuels, regardless of environmental impact? Do you really imagine our ‘short run’ needs can be satisfied with pie-in-the-sky developments like oil shales (or even more drilling in coastal areas)? There is enough oil to satisfy our short-term needs already– especially if we get serious about conservation, plug-in hybrids, better insulation, more efficient lighting, public transit etc.

  185. #185 Jim
    August 29, 2008

    The whole thing about finding new oil: even if quite a bit were found recoverable it would not be added to the USA supply but to the world supply (companies will ship it to the place that offers the best price) so oil products would still remain expensive here in the USA.

  186. #186 Qwerty
    August 29, 2008

    From Dave@ #140: “Church and fucking state. That should be enough to decide the election, but alas… people are stupid.” who is going to vote for McCain.

    I take Dave that you are talking about yourself when you say “…people are stupid.”

  187. #187 Sven DiMilo
    August 29, 2008

    Why not just go ahead and tell female voters to shut up and make you a sandwich?

    I am kinda hungry right now. And hey, get me a beer too.
    Thanks in advance, female voters!

  188. #188 Dan L.
    August 29, 2008

    The Chemist @83:

    “Um, hate to point this out, but Biden is from Delaware. Delaware also has a measly three electoral points.”

    Yes, but I have a feeling that voters in PA, NJ, and MD will feel pretty good about voting for a guy from Delaware. This is especially good since MD could easily go against a man perceived by most white voters as black.

    Speaking of which, I was re-reading Freakonomics and came across a pretty troubling paragraph about people in a white v. black election lying to pollsters and skewing the numbers towards the black candidate from the actual results. One example was that of Dinkum v. Giuliani where Dinkum was predicted to win by as much as 15 points (based on polls) and ended up winning by 2 or 3.

    If Obama is 12 points behind what the polls say, then Dems should probably be a little less confident about the outcome here.

  189. #189 robotaholic
    August 29, 2008

    I used to have this blog bookmarked but I guess I’m going to take my “fucktard Hillary” vote elsewhere-

    I no longer want to be associated with illogical and dogmatic posters like you.

    EXIT
    END TRANSMISSION

  190. #190 Grammar RWA
    August 29, 2008

    From Dave@ #140: “Church and fucking state. That should be enough to decide the election, but alas… people are stupid.” who is going to vote for McCain.

    I take Dave that you are talking about yourself when you say “…people are stupid.”

    Now, now. Dave might be a multi-millionaire. In that case, it makes good sense for him to vote for McCain.

    What? He’s middle class?

    Then he’s a sucker.

  191. #191 llewelly
    August 29, 2008

    Warren :

    This has the mark of Rove. By selecting a woman, McCain hopes to rope in all the Hilltards (Shrilltards?) who would be happy to elect Bush to a third term just out of spite, since their Anointed One didn’t get the nod.

    Do you realize that the political group supporting the notion that Hillary supporters ought to vote for McCain was founded in part by former right-wing think-tank members, some of whom said incredibly negative things about Hillary previously? That it was founded in part with right-wing think-tank money? That there is still not a shred of evidence that significant numbers of Hillary supporters are considering voting for McCain? It’s all been a clever manipulation of the press, and you’ve been roped in.

  192. #192 Ouchimoo
    August 29, 2008

    Sure hope your right #29

    But I’ve heard that echo in far more places than just faux noise. I’ve heard it on CNN and NPR as well. . and more. I’d seriously like to think that women are smarter than just voting for a pair of xx’s just because they are a pair of xx’s. Because if they aren’t, it makes me look bad.

  193. #193 Samia
    August 29, 2008

    It’s strange to claim that Palin is anti-woman and then follow it up with common insults aimed at women’s perceived attractiveness and sexual activities.

    Chiroptera, the “assumption” I speak of is that a man can make sexist remarks about female politicians he doesn’t like, but that other women won’t ever be put off enough by his swill to switch candidates. See: the awesome job Ron Paul supporters have done in portraying their candidate as something other than a complete and utter nutjob. A number of women already feel that some of Obama’s supporters have misogynistic tendencies and have been put off by Obama’s entire campaign for that reason. I sincerely hope that everyone keeps their mind on the issues and not these tensions, but it can be difficult with such tripe flying from both sides.

  194. #194 Grammar RWA
    August 29, 2008

    Do you realize that the political group supporting the notion that Hillary supporters ought to vote for McCain was founded in part by former right-wing think-tank members, some of whom said incredibly negative things about Hillary previously? That it was founded in part with right-wing think-tank money? That there is still not a shred of evidence that significant numbers of Hillary supporters are considering voting for McCain? It’s all been a clever manipulation of the press, and you’ve been roped in.

    Correct.

    Details:

    http://pandagon.net/index.php/site/comments/pumas_are_swiftboats_darragh_murphy/

    http://www.rumproast.com/index.php/site/comments/puma_pacs_founder_darragh_murphy_proudly_presents_party_unity_my_ass_redux/

  195. #195 reboho
    August 29, 2008

    In a week or two McCain is going to regret this choice. This is a cynical choice to go “all-in” and once people discover who she is McCain will have to fold. McCain just handed the election to Obama. He is not even going to try.

  196. #196 kmarissa
    August 29, 2008

    From Dave@ #140: “Church and fucking state. That should be enough to decide the election, but alas… people are stupid.” who is going to vote for McCain.

    Hm… Looking at Dave’s linked blog post, I kinda suspect his statement about voting for McCain was a joke. Although, I suppose you never really can tell.

  197. #197 exodite
    August 29, 2008

    I figure its worth mentioning her husband works for BP energy (a good salary, but nothing too important), but definitely shows that continued oil first connection that has plagued the world since Bush and Cheney hijacked the presidency…

  198. #198 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Because, you know, those irrational women voters couldn’t possibly have any reason to not like Obama as the candidate

    Well for one I’m not referring to all Hillary supporters.

    Secondly I’m referring to the ones that claiming to be voting for McCain (real or trumped up) because of how they perceived Hillary to have been treated effectively throwing all of Hillary’s positions in the trash. A truly idiotic action in my opinion.

    But come on, think about what you’re saying here. For much of history we’ve had to put up with crap about women being “irrational”, so how the hell do you think saying shit like “a lack of rational thought” is going to go over?

    Here’s what I said.

    This to me seems like an obvious pander to the cross over Hillary voters. IMHO that group is already demonstrating a lock of rational thought

    The bolded part is important to the message. I was not calling all women or only women irrational. Just the supporters that are throwing away the very ideals of the person they supposedly were supporting and the ideals you’d assume they hold to vote for a candidate who opposes many of those ideals because of some perceived slight. So how it goes over depends if you want to look at what was said first.

    And if I’m right that should anger woman voters, especially the Hillary cross overs, but you know it won’t.

    My point again being the obvious pandering of McCain to women voters by picking a virtually unknown and inexperienced woman for what appear to be mostly because she is a woman. Had he picked a more experienced and better known woman I wouldn’t feel the same. But he didn’t.

    If you want to make that into a misogynistic attack, well that’s your prerogative but that is far from the truth in the matter.

    Are some women angry enough that they’re going to vote for McCain? Unfortunately, yes. But that’s because of the ridiculous two party system that keeps them from giving their vote to a third party candidate

    Great, but that doesn’t change my point.

  199. #199 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Do you realize that the political group supporting the notion that Hillary supporters ought to vote for McCain was founded in part by former right-wing think-tank members, some of whom said incredibly negative things about Hillary previously?

    Which makes it even more ridiculous that any previous Hillary supporter (how small the group may be) would go with it.

  200. #200 Fergy
    August 29, 2008

    (In best Emily Litella voice:)

    What’s all this fuss about McCain’s VP pick being a hooker mom? What’s wrong with making a little extra money on the side? There’s nothing else to do up there, she might as well service a few ice truckers. I mean, she lives in Alaska, for Pete’s… What’s that? Hockey mom? Not hooker mom? Oh, that’s very different… Never mind.

  201. #201 Arnosium Upinarum
    August 29, 2008

    Evidently the GOP is convinced that appearances ARE everything. They look sooo cute together with their adorable cheek-dimples.

  202. #202 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Interesting WaPo article on some Hillary supporters.

    The HillBloggers — stalwart online supporters of Sen. Hillary Clinton — are fired up this morning by the announcement that Sen. John McCain has chosen Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin as his running mate.

    The common refrain: “Obama will regret not choosing Hillary now!”

    Taylor Marsh, a Las Vegas blogger who developed a large following of Clintonites during the primary, wrote this morning that: “This is a move to peel off disaffected HRC voters. I guess McCain thinks they’re stupid and willing to vote for any woman. Rabidly pro life, an NRA member, she’s not exactly a champion of women’s civil rights. We’ll have to see where she stands on health care and equal pay. But one thing this does is keep Hillary Clinton in the forefront throughout the general election. We’ll be hearing the phrase ‘Hillary Clinton voters’ until November.”

  203. #203 craig
    August 29, 2008

    You have to admit it’s pretty funny.

  204. #204 Natalie
    August 29, 2008

    Um, hate to point this out, but Biden is from Delaware. Delaware also has a measly three electoral points.

    The Rev already touched on this a bit, but Biden didn’t get picked because of which state he represents. He got picked because he’s got solid national security/crime/immigration experience. Palin, on the other hand, has practically no political experience in any major policy areas – she’s obviously only on the ticket because of her gender.

  205. #205 Tabby Lavalamp
    August 29, 2008

    I was not calling all women or only women irrational.

    Like I said, I didn’t think it was intentional. But when you look at all the misogyny that has plagued this campaign, choosing words is doubly important.
    It wasn’t misogyny, but a great example of the importance of words is the storm Biden raised when he said of Obama, “I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy.”
    He’s not racist and he didn’t mean it to sound racist, but there are key words in there that send warning signs up. Using “irrational” when talking about women is just as careless as using “articulate” when talking about African-Americans. There is a dark history to those words in this context and in the historic oppression both groups have faced.
    I read your comments and I believe you when you say your not a misogynist, but your choice of words was careless.

  206. #206 bernard quatermass
    August 29, 2008

    “Is evolutionist ignorance superior to creationist ignorance? Just wondering. I would believe it all evolved, but I just don’t have that much faith.”

    Faith is not necessary in re: evolution. It is possible to intellectually understand how evolution works, and that has been convincingly demonstrated over and over by people you choose to ignore.

    If you choose to view “it all” as having been randomly created by Sky Santa, on the other hand … well, Sky Santa is by definition inscrutable. Who can plumb its randomness?

    And that’s the essential difference. You may _choose_ to avoid doing the work to intellectually understand how evolution works. That is your considerable loss.

  207. #207 skyotter
    August 29, 2008

    is there where i admit to being an Alaskan?

    or is this where i remind everyone that McCain finished FOURTH in Alaska’s Republican caucus, after Ron “Unelectable” Paul?

    (hmmm, guess it’s both)

  208. #208 Post-Cana
    August 29, 2008

    Her father was a science teacher? Can we get his opinion on her “teach both” policy?

    I just don’t understand why McCain feels he had to pick a raving religious right VP. Did he really think that the Republican Right would vote for Obama out of spite because McCain didn’t always follow the party line? His first presidential decision wasn’t brave because he picked a woman, it’s cowardly because he picked someone who represents exactly what he doesn’t like about his own party. He squandered his first chance to make real change.

    I know a few independents who were leaning toward McCain because of his superior political gravitas. We’ll see if his irrational, ideological VP pick will make them think twice.

  209. #209 Darth Wader
    August 29, 2008

    Wow for such a bright group you would think they would know the difference between misogyny and chauvinism.

  210. #210 David Marjanovi?, OM
    August 29, 2008

    That way they could get two shallow factions: people who vote by gender only and people who vote on race only.

    There are two shallow factions of people who vote on race only. One of them mostly votes Democratic by default. The other votes Reptilian by default, but would stay at home if Rice had been nominated…

    it’s the first book of Timothy.

    The first letter to Timothy.

    Plus, what if they were both driving somewhere and they got into a serious accident and some of NDT’s brain matter accidentally came into contact with McCain’s anti-brain matter? The universe could be totally annihilated!

    ROTFL! Ayuhn may Gahd blessm Merica.

  211. #211 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    I read your comments and I believe you when you say your not a misogynist, but your choice of words was careless.

    Humm. I don’t subscribe to that theory but ok that’s fine I do understand what you are saying.

    However, I do think that people who claim to support Hillary and the ideals she holds up decide to vote solely because of a perceived slight by the voting process for someone who at least on the surface and in his campaign stances directly opposes some or most of those ideals are irrational.

    I believe that a lack of rational thought is what is occurring there. be they Male or Female. They are acting on emotion more than reason.

  212. #212 jj
    August 29, 2008

    Grammar RWA #194 that second link you posted is pretty interesting: Puma PAC’s founder Darragh Murphy (hearts) John McCain

    So “lifelong Democrat” Darragh Murphy not only confirmed that she gave a sizable donation to John McCain in 2000 (and never gave a penny to her “hero” Al Gore), but she also admitted that she voted for McCain in the primaries as well.

    It doesn’t surprise me. The alleged support for McCain from disinenchanted Hillary supporters seemed grossly exaggerated. It’s good to see that some of the republican posers are being outed.

  213. #213 Dave
    August 29, 2008

    “Hm… Looking at Dave’s linked blog post, I kinda suspect his statement about voting for McCain was a joke. Although, I suppose you never really can tell.”

    This

    It always amazes me how quick people are to respond.

    @Qwerty: It would do you well to actually read things before blindly replying.

  214. #214 Post-Cana
    August 29, 2008

    And I didn’t use the word “irrational” because she’s a woman, I used it because treating evolution and creationism as equal in the teaching of science is antithetical to rational thought. It is an illogical position that brings into question a person’s ability to apply reason and rationality to decision making.

    It is so totally sexist to suggest we stop using a good and proper word like “irrational” when it so aptly applies just because the subject happens to be female.

  215. #215 Grammar RWA
    August 29, 2008

    “Hm… Looking at Dave’s linked blog post, I kinda suspect his statement about voting for McCain was a joke. Although, I suppose you never really can tell.”

    This

    It always amazes me how quick people are to respond.

    Hint: you are not special, Dave. No one cares enough about you to click through and bring traffic to your blog. If you want to say something, say it here.

  216. #216 Paul
    August 29, 2008

    “See: the awesome job Ron Paul supporters have done in portraying their candidate as something other than a complete and utter nutjob.”

    Yep, he’s a nutjob all right:

    Strict Constitutionalist.
    Voted against the Patriot Act and the Iraq War.
    Wants an immediate end to the Iraq War.
    Thinks rattling sabers at Iran and Russia is foolish and dangerous.
    Thinks our present foreign policy is disasterous.
    Believes we should have open trade and dialogue with all countries, if possible.
    Shouldn’t go to war unless attacked and Congress must declare war.
    Wants to get rid of the Patriot Act.
    Thinks the federal government has no business in regards to abortion and gay marriage.
    Ect.

    Yep, Nut Job status confirmed!!

    Paul Ray

  217. #217 Sili
    August 29, 2008

    Matt Penfold | August 29, 2008 2:32 PM,

    I was indeed trying my best deadpan (not very good, is it). But I have no doubt that much legitimate criticism is gonna be swept aside with that reply.

  218. #218 Natalie
    August 29, 2008

    One of the things that has soured so many women – and some men too – on not just Obama but the Democrats is crap like this.

    So apparently women have been cataloguing every single even remotely sexist thing to come out of a Democrats’ mouth over the last year or so… but they’ve been completely ignoring the moutains of sexist crap that has been coming out of the Republican Party for the last two decades? I’m sorry, but that’s just stupid. I’m not trying to give the Democrats a pass for their sexism, but they are not anywhere near as bad as the Republicans in this regard.

    Anyone, male or female, who decides to vote for McCain becase they think the Democrats are more sexist is a fucking moron.

  219. #219 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Yep, Nut Job status confirmed!!

    Oh fucking jesus christ. Who left the door open.

  220. #220 Flex
    August 29, 2008

    One point to consider.

    Behind the closed doors of the republican party, how many people were asked … and refused?

    I wouldn’t be surprised that she was the forth or fifth (or lower) person on their list, but the others were unwilling to jeopardize a future chance at the brass ring of American politics.

    I get the feeling that many potential republican candidates are staying out of this years races.

  221. #221 Chrisq
    August 29, 2008

    The ID stuff is a deal breaker for me, but she also smoked marijuana and didn’t like it. Le Sigh.

  222. #222 Michael
    August 29, 2008

    she’s of the drill-in-marginal-areas school, not someone who’s going to pursue alternative energy sources

    Sarah Palin as VP was a surprise pick to say the least. A huge gamble on McCain’s part. Of course she is for drilling as she is from Alaska, how many jobs you think are in that State? Would that mean she is not going to pursue other energy sources, the answer is “no”. China is the main one who is not pursing alternative energy. Oil independence policies include other energy sources from both parties but they do have some differences on how to get to the objective.

    OPEC which influences market prices said this week it was cutting supply because of falling prices. Of course they want to push it over the 5 dollar mark if not more. So even with a reduction in demand, OPEC will always try to counter with cutting supply. This is why oil independence is key.

    With the approaching Hurricane, prices have been climbing upward. I don’t oppose more limited drilling in addition to what the US has now. Although I don’t like the idea of drilling off shore that much because of the storms. I also favor flex fuel engines which also include electrical cars as well. Perhaps Sarah Palin could help on this issue but still her being an unknown is a huge risk.

  223. #223 Carlie
    August 29, 2008

    Thanks, Tavvy, for explaining it. No, all women who aren’t thrilled with Obama aren’t just sour grapes shrill whiners who wanted Hillary because she has ovaries. He has a less than stellar record dealing with women and women’s issues, from the petty but annoying habit of calling women “sweetie” to the much more troublesome view that women might be able to have abortions, maybe, but only if they get permission from their husbands and pastors first, and it’s still icky and he doesn’t like it. Plus, believe it or not, women have important issues other than those relating directly to women. I know a lot of women who cooled significantly on Obama because of his FISA vote, for instance. It’s getting quite tiresome for Democrats to keep acting as if “women” were a monolithic voting bloc, and to keep taking them for granted by dangling Roe over their heads at every turn. Most Hillary supporters won’t vote for McCain, but Obama hasn’t done a very good job of making them want to do anything else besides stay home or vote third-party, either.

  224. #224 Athe The False
    August 29, 2008

    I’m sorry, but the “Shrilltards” have earned their name not by being women, but by being stupid. They’re screaming that Obama stole the election because of MI and FL even though they agreed to not count the votes from those states over when their primaries were held. Then, after a bunch of screeching and crying from Clinton’s camp, they did manage to get the votes counted — and Obama still won.

    Hell, Obama wasn’t even ON the Michigan ballot!

    So, yes, they deserve the bashing. This isn’t about gender, this is about screaming like an idiot and not shutting up even when you’re wrong, wrong, wrong.

  225. #225 Tabby Lavalamp
    August 29, 2008

    And I didn’t use the word “irrational” because she’s a woman, I used it because treating evolution and creationism as equal in the teaching of science is antithetical to rational thought. It is an illogical position that brings into question a person’s ability to apply reason and rationality to decision making.

    It is so totally sexist to suggest we stop using a good and proper word like “irrational” when it so aptly applies just because the subject happens to be female.

    Obviously it all comes down to context. The context here is that Hillary Clinton and her female supports have been subject to sexist smears for months now. Therefore saying these voters would be irrational to vote for McCain (or against Obama) carries a much different context than saying Palin is irrational for being a creationist. Context does matter.
    And so I can use the word yet again – context. :)

    So speaking of careless use of words, I could have made this more clear.

  226. #226 Hap
    August 29, 2008

    I think the misogynism is in the unfortunate vein of Ann Coulter, though her career’s gone downhill since the Alien vs. Predator movies flopped…

    This move seems to be slightly misogynist in itself, though. Her positions would substantially restrict the lives of women in ways those of men would not be, so it probably isn’t in the best interests of most women. Those who believe in the conservative politics of her position need no other reason to vote for McCain – so choosing Palin as VP must hinge on some other calculation. Palin doesn’t increase McCain’s experience – she has substantially less experience than Obama or Biden, and McCain’s health and age make it more likely she will replace him than normal (so the experience issue may be move relevant than usual). The only conclusion one can make is that the move is designed to appeal to women who would not otherwise have voted and who are unaware enough of her positions to believe that she will help them politically, or won’t hurt them. The move hinges on the existence of a large set of women who want to vote for a woman and don’t care about her politics, which seems to indicate that women would be willing to vote against their interests if the candidate looks like them (this is the Republican Party, though). It seems like nominating Clarence Thomas as a VP and expecting the black vote to roll in.

    It’s possible that some women may be believe the presence of a woman VP may inspire women to reach for things they might not have otherwise, and that the present constraints are worth it to increase future potential, though than seems like a sketchy calculation.

  227. #227 Arnosium Upinarum
    August 29, 2008

    Great. We might end up being a 72-year-old-man’s heartbeat away from having a 1-year experience governor and 2-year-experience part-time mayor of an Alaskan town, population 6000, as a president, commander-in-chief of the most powerful military in the history of the world, conductor of foreign policy affairs, preserver of constitution, the law, the economy and the rights of the people.

    All on account of these idiots being so desperate to win, because as we all know, the McCampaign keeps repeating that they know what’s in the best interest of the country. Some nut at Liberty U calls the choice “Brilliant!” and characterizes her as a “package” that contains everything.

    Two points:

    1. McCain’s judgement for selecting Palin.

    2. Palin’s judgement for accepting.

    Hmmmm….

    If this selection of a Hillary-facsimile for VP doesn’t have “desperation” written all over it, I’ll…I’ll eat a whole case of crackers…sans beer.

  228. #228 Dave
    August 29, 2008

    “Hint: you are not special, Dave. No one cares enough about you to click through and bring traffic to your blog. If you want to say something, say it here.”

    The purpose of the link was to include the picture which added to the effect, but regardless, I don’t care whether people click it or not. Just don’t go replying to peoples’ comments without knowing the info. That is just being ignorant, and acting like the believers that this community (I’d hope) frowns upon.

  229. #229 Rob in Memphis
    August 29, 2008

    @S.Scott #91: Thanks! I aim to please. ;-)

    @ Grammar RWA #129: Thanks very much for the clarification and correction. Normally I have crazy-good copy ‘n’ paste skills, but I’ve been a bit of a fumble-fingers today. ‘Preciate it!

  230. #231 Geral
    August 29, 2008

    Breaking News: Ralph Nader chooses Stephen Colbert for a running mate!

    Nothing surprises me any more…

  231. #232 Arnosium Upinarum
    August 29, 2008

    …the only thing that can save them now is the Rapture.

  232. #233 Tabby Lavalamp
    August 29, 2008

    So apparently women have been cataloguing every single even remotely sexist thing to come out of a Democrats’ mouth over the last year or so… but they’ve been completely ignoring the moutains of sexist crap that has been coming out of the Republican Party for the last two decades? I’m sorry, but that’s just stupid. I’m not trying to give the Democrats a pass for their sexism, but they are not anywhere near as bad as the Republicans in this regard.

    Anyone, male or female, who decides to vote for McCain becase they think the Democrats are more sexist is a fucking moron.

    Yes, anyone who thinks the Democrats are most exist than the Republicans is a fucking moron. I agree with you 100%. But the issue is that the Democrats are sexist at all, and handing them your vote automatically every four years because they’re not the GOP isn’t going to change anything. At some point enough has to be enough and they have to get around to earning people’s votes again.
    It’s not just women either, or should I point out their recent attempts to sway evangelical voters at the expense of secularists?

    I’m sorry, but the “Shrilltards” have earned their name not by being women, but by being stupid. They’re screaming that Obama stole the election because of MI and FL even though they agreed to not count the votes from those states over when their primaries were held. Then, after a bunch of screeching and crying from Clinton’s camp, they did manage to get the votes counted — and Obama still won.

    Hell, Obama wasn’t even ON the Michigan ballot!

    So, yes, they deserve the bashing. This isn’t about gender, this is about screaming like an idiot and not shutting up even when you’re wrong, wrong, wrong.

    It was a huge mistake to agree to not count Michigan and Florida. For many reasons, including pissing off voters in a swing state like Florida.
    However… “Obama wasn’t even ON the Michigan ballot.” Yet he still got delegates from there. It was a compromise that made the whole thing meaningless.

  233. #234 BobC
    August 29, 2008

    Finally the Republicans have a female Vice-President candidate. It’s about time. But why did McCain choose a brain-dead creationist? Apparently the Republicans think they can’t win an election without sucking up to America’s massive idiot population.

  234. #235 Flex
    August 29, 2008

    Hap wrote, “It’s possible that some women may be believe the presence of a woman VP may inspire women to reach for things they might not have otherwise,….”

    Which is exactly what they said when Geraldine Ferrero was on the VP ticket twenty-two years ago. Since this is the first woman on a presidental ticket since then, maybe some anger at the glass ceiling is justified.

    Of course, IMHO, it’s been largely the pandering to the religious by the two parties which have prevented qualified women from being on a presidential ticket. In particular the union of conservative politics and religion. Coupled with the subsequent knee-jerk reaction by the democratic party afraid that any support they might have from church going communities was eroding.

  235. #236 Hap
    August 29, 2008

    #234:

    Apparently the Republicans think they can’t win an election without sucking up to America’s massive idiot population.

    Well,duh! Where else are they going to get votes from? Other than the Supreme Court, that is.

  236. #237 Ichthyic
    August 29, 2008

    But why did McCain choose a brain-dead creationist?

    When Bush (Sr.) selected Quayle as his running mate, the same “brain dead” issue arose.

    Most of us at the time were supporting the “assassination insurance” idea.

    Here, though, I rather think McCain is hardly considering the “next in line” issue, so much as he needed to attract fundie voter base (considering what a public spanking he gave them, and the GoP for relying on them, back in 2000).

    times change…

  237. #238 Ichthyic
    August 29, 2008

    It was a huge mistake to agree to not count Michigan and Florida. For many reasons, including pissing off voters in a swing state like Florida.

    What punitive measures would YOU have suggested to curtail other states from starting a horse race for primary dates?

  238. #239 BlueIndependent
    August 29, 2008

    “Yeah, Obama gave his speech to a crowd of thousands with cheers and tears…but why is that? Because he’s a damn socialist, that’s why. He’s almighty, the “savior” of a world fallen attack to the dreaded Republicans. Give me a break. All I know is that if Obama gets into office, we may as well as move to a communist country, cause that’s where we’re headed.”

    As one of your fellow citizens, I must protest and demand you provide evidence for the charge that Obama is A) a socialist, B) a communist, and C) a socialist and a communist at the same time (hint: they’re not the same thing). I also demand one shred of proof the US is anywhere near socialism or communism. Bands of morons have been making the charge for about 150 years now that anyone not a republican is a socialist, and yet proof has never been given, only suppositions thrown.

    “And Heaven forbid we have a woman in office who has more common sense and morality in one eyelash than most of the posters here! Where is America headed if this is the majority of the so-called citizens? I, for one, applaud McCain’s balls in choosing a female VP. If Faux-Bama had had half a brain, he’d have done the same…would have insured his vote. Now all he has is empty promises to throw at the dazed, delusioned masses.”

    Do you write for a right-wing rag? Are you a freeper? A townhall clone? Please, spare us your self-righteous concern. Just aadmit you think Irving Kristol’s bullshit is just great, and think your fellow citizens are too stupid to butter their bread. It’s so much easier than attempting to hide behind obviously untrue garbage a million idiots before you have already puked. The fact is I can’t wait for you morons to lose, because your fat asses deserve nothing more. I’ll have a happy time negating your vote in 7 weeks.

  239. #240 Ichthyic
    August 29, 2008

    …the only thing that can save them now is the Rapture.

    fingers crossed, but many of us said the same thing shortly before the 2000 election.

    frankly, I’m putting my “faith” in my feet, instead of my vote.

  240. #241 Carlie
    August 29, 2008

    “Shrilltard” is both misogynist and ableist. Two slurs for the price of one!

  241. #242 Dee
    August 29, 2008

    I’ve been itching to get home from work since reading Dee’s post #70. I’ve been a devoted reader here for a couple of years now, and an occasional (very occasional) poster, and I use the moniker ‘Dee’, which happens to be all three of my initials and also happens to be my middle name.

    I am NOT the Dee of post #70. I sure as hell wouldn’t say something that damn dumb. I would have to give up my ‘rocket scientist’ tee-shirts, and I’m not gonna do that.

    I haven’t decided yet how I feel about the Democratic ticket, although I think Biden was a good VP choice. I don’t know anything about Palin; I only just heard about her for the first time today. What I’m reading on this thread certainly doesn’t impress me, but I don’t know enough myself to say. However, there are two things I do know:

    1. I will never patronize a woman by voting for her just because of her ovaries. I have a couple myself and I hate that kind of shit.
    2. It will be a cold day in hell before I vote for a Republican presidential candidate, and I don’t care how incredible the candidate or his/her running mate might be. In my opinion, you vote for the party as well as the individual, and I despise the influence of the religious right on that party. I will never agree to giving those people power; I consider them a bigger threat to my way of life than Bin Laden.

    Oh, and one more thing. I don’t just blow in, make fatuous statements, and then disappear. If I have a beef with someone/something I try to have something specific to say and something factual to back it up with. I may be wrong, but I won’t be stupid.

    Just so that’s clear.

  242. #243 Ichthyic
    August 29, 2008

    Did he really think that the Republican Right would vote for Obama out of spite because McCain didn’t always follow the party line?

    no, I’m sure he thought that they would simply stay home.

  243. #244 Flex
    August 29, 2008

    Realistically, I don’t think the republican party leaders think that McCain has a more than a snowballs chance in hell of winning this election.

    As I think they see it; if he does, Great!

    If not, and I think they are expecting him to lose, they will be able to point to this slate and say to the voters at the next election. “Hey! We’re progressive. We offered a woman as a VP. That you didn’t choose her makes it your fault. And because of you we are going to wait another 20 years before we offer another one. Feel guilty about it yet?”

    Believe it, the republicans are already planning for the 2010 mid-terms and the 2012 presidential elections. I assume there are working groups within the democratic party doing the same.

  244. #245 PZ Myers
    August 29, 2008

    People — all the comments about Palian’s appearance make me cringe. I don’t care what she looks like.

    Why aren’t we critiquing McCain because he looks so squirrely, or Obama because he looks like a fencepost with ears? Neither of the presidential candidates look like they will be winning any beauty contests, yet we aren’t obsessing over that.

  245. #246 Ichthyic
    August 29, 2008

    And because of you we are going to wait another 20 years before we offer another one. Feel guilty about it yet?”

    LOL

    sounds about right.

  246. #247 Ben T
    August 29, 2008

    What’s with all the flippant sexism? Sure, Palin is not convincing me to vote McCain, but it seems left or right you always have people who, when confronted with a female they oppose, start in with the sexual comments or talking about how she looks etc. For example:

    Comment #20 “She looks hot”
    #36 “This Palin person may have a pretty face, although I am not convinced of that.”
    #75 “The only thing I know about Sarah Palin is that she has a screechy voice. I can’t believe I have to listen to THAT for the next two months, till this is over.”
    #78 “And to whoever said Palin’s hot: you need even bigger glasses than she wears.”
    #103 “He must be sleeping with her. How the hell else could you explain this. Talk about executive’s privilege!”
    #120 “I saw one picture where she looks like Dustin Hoffman as Tootsie.”
    #123 “So she does anal.”
    #126 “But… but… She’s hot! And, as someone on Fark said: “Maybe that’s what McCain meant when he was talking about drilling in Alaska.””
    #173 “So we might as well have a MILF as the VP.”

    Its like when people get all locker room talking about Ann Coulter’s Adam’s Apple or whatever. Sure, she’s an awful person and all that, but have a little class. Maybe I’m misreading some of those comments and they are supposed to be ironic or something. Still, it seems any woman that ends up in the spotlight gets to deal with a group of juvenile dudes rating her on a 1-10 scale. Hell, I guess even my mother does it with female musicians and athletes in a more innocent but still “a woman’s sex appeal should always be considered” sort of way.

  247. #248 Chiroptera
    August 29, 2008

    BlueIndependent, #239: C) a socialist and a communist at the same time (hint: they’re not the same thing).

    This is the second or third time I’ve seen this, so I’ll offer a correction:

    Communism is a kind of socialism, so if someone is a communist then they are automatically a communist and a socialist at the same time.

    By the way, anarchism is a type of communism, so an anarchist is also a communist and a socialist.

  248. #249 N.K.
    August 29, 2008

    The Dee of #70 (Not the other Dee) makes me laugh.

    The first bit was pretty much, “Bawww, socialist,” which is funny, given his tax plan is lighter on most people than McCain’s is. (http://alchemytoday.com/obamataxcut/taxsummary.png)

    Next; It’s all about women! Oh dear!

    If Dee wasn’t quite so stupid, she may realize that being a woman doesn’t make you more well-suited or less well-suited to run the country. The Vice President should be selected based on his/her policies and record, not their genitalia.

    The rest I won’t address, since it was mostly whining about how stupid everybody here is.

  249. #250 Paul Meade
    August 29, 2008

    I did not have a chance to go through the 200 some posts but check this out, she’s under investigation for corruption:

    http://thinkprogress.org/2008/08/29/palin-corruption-investigation/

  250. #251 llewelly
    August 29, 2008

    Athe The False :

    I’m sorry, but the “Shrilltards” have earned their name not by being women, but by being stupid.

    And you’ve earned the name of ‘credulous’ because you believe the myth that a significant number of Hillary supporters might vote for McCain.
    It’s like bigfoot. Or like being a ‘maverick’. It drums up a lot of press attention, it makes a lot of people look at McCain. It works because people are entertained by it’s soap-opera like appearance.

  251. #252 Benjamin Franklin
    August 29, 2008

    And she eats moose!

    Well, there goes the vegans for McCain grass roots support.

    Or have the vegans already consumed the grass roots?

  252. #253 S.M. Hall
    August 29, 2008

    Will this go down as new low in American politics? I have to wonder what future historians will think of this.

  253. #254 Quiet Desperation
    August 29, 2008

    Why aren’t we critiquing McCain because he looks so squirrely, or Obama because he looks like a fencepost with ears?

    I’ve been commenting that McCain looks like he is melting for some time now.

    McCain/Tootsie in 2008! :-)

  254. #255 Nibien
    August 29, 2008

    “Like I said, I didn’t think it was intentional. But when you look at all the misogyny that has plagued this campaign, choosing words is doubly important.”

    Do you also see shadows that come after you and attack you?

  255. #256 Dan L.
    August 29, 2008

    Chiroptera@248:

    socialism (1st definition): a theory or system of social organization that advocates the vesting of the ownership and control of the means of production and distribution, of capital, land, etc., in the community as a whole.

    communism (2nd definition; 1st is identical to that of socialism): (often initial capital letter) a system of social organization in which all economic and social activity is controlled by a totalitarian state dominated by a single and self-perpetuating political party.

    anarchy: a theory that regards the absence of all direct or coercive government as a political ideal and that proposes the cooperative and voluntary association of individuals and groups as the principal mode of organized society.

    Unfortunately, common usage of all three has strayed from the dictionary definitions. Still, anarchy is not at all equivalent to communism. In anarchy, neither the government nor “the people” own all goods, all resources, or all means of production. A capitalist anarchic state is not a logical contradiction — a capitalist communist state is (at least in theory. But see: China).

  256. #257 Quiet Desperation
    August 29, 2008

    choosing words is doubly important.

    So is not seeing a bogeyman in every one.

  257. #258 Quiet Desperation
    August 29, 2008

    Will this go down as new low in American politics? I have to wonder what future historians will think of this.

    Don’t worry. This whole time period will be suppressed and covered up. :-)

  258. #259 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    China is the main one who is not pursing alternative energy. – Michael@222
    Not true as it happens:

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/7535839.stm China also has a fast-growing nuclear programme. However, their overall energy use is growing so fast, their greenhouse gas emissions are still rising rapidly.

  259. #260 jfatz
    August 29, 2008

    You’re not seeing the bigger picture, here… There’s finally a good use for the http://www.vpilf.com/ domain!

    I mean, Schuyler Colfax was pretty hot, but still…!

  260. #261 Dee
    August 29, 2008

    N.K. @ #249

    Thanks for the distinction.

    And although I assumed #70 was a woman too, looking back at the post, there’s nothing that really says so. At least not for sure.

  261. #262 dave
    August 29, 2008

    Wow, bold move to reach out to the oft-neglected Eskimo vote.

  262. #263 haelduksf
    August 29, 2008

    To be honest, anyone who switches votes based on a VP is a few cards short of a full deck, in my opinion. What effect is she (or Biden, for that matter) going to have on policy? None, unless the president dies, and really the chances of that are not so high as to make it worth voting on.

  263. #264 JoJo
    August 29, 2008

    Post-Cana #208

    I just don’t understand why McCain feels he had to pick a raving religious right VP. Did he really think that the Republican Right would vote for Obama out of spite because McCain didn’t always follow the party line? His first presidential decision wasn’t brave because he picked a woman, it’s cowardly because he picked someone who represents exactly what he doesn’t like about his own party. He squandered his first chance to make real change.

    McCain has the problem that many of the neocons and religious right don’t like him. He’s afraid they won’t bother to vote so he’s trying hard to give them a reason to do so. When Limbaugh and Dobson spit at him, McCain has to jump through several hoops to stop the alienation. That’s why the moderate Maverick of 2000 turned into McSame. Picking Palin is just one more attempt to win over the neocons and fundamentalists.

  264. #265 BriansAWildDowner
    August 29, 2008

    Does McCain still think people should be fined for saying offensive things on the internet? I don’t know why people are asking him anything other than that.

  265. #266 Darth Wader
    August 29, 2008

    How appropriate McCain made the announcement at the Nutter Center.
    Wouldn’t it be easier if he just threw in the towel?
    It is impressive how with one decision he could undermine every negative thing he has said about Obama?

  266. #267 raven
    August 29, 2008

    FWIW, every woman I’ve run into today is just appalled by the choice of Sarah whatishername. No one knows whether to laugh, cry, scream, or all of the above. Comments about surrealism and the Twilight Zone are common.

    Using the principle that the absolute worst candidate wins, McCain looks like a landslide.

  267. #268 Ghost of Minnesota
    August 29, 2008

    Does McCain still think people should be fined for saying offensive things on the internet?
    Fuck that.

  268. #269 llewelly
    August 29, 2008

    To be honest, anyone who switches votes based on a VP is a few cards short of a full deck, in my opinion.

    But they make for an awfully exciting soap opera! Especially if they are former Hillary supporters who were former right-wing think-tankers who surely number in the tens of millions even though pulling out all the couch cushions still hasn’t turned any up!

  269. #270 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    There is enough oil to satisfy our short-term needs already– especially if we get serious about conservation, plug-in hybrids, better insulation, more efficient lighting, public transit etc. – Bryson Brown

    Sure, but conservation’s not very manly now, is it? The only really tough, go-getting, that’ll-show-the-tree-huggers man-has-always-strived-for choice is putting the whole planet through the crusher to extract the last drop of oil.

  270. #271 SC
    August 29, 2008

    A capitalist anarchic state is not a logical contradiction — a capitalist communist state is (at least in theory. But see: China).

    Ugh. I don’t have time to deal with the level of ignorance exhibited in that comment right now. On anarchism, here’s Peter Kropotkin, anarchist-communist (1910):

    http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/britanniaanarchy.html

    “Anarcho-capitalism” is a grotesque, self-contradictory term. Do not be fooled.

  271. #272 Ted
    August 29, 2008

    Palin creationist friendly, and not “intelligent design” friendly, but “creation science” friendly:

    http://tinyurl.com/6gf5gk

  272. #273 llewelly
    August 29, 2008

    By the way, anarchism is a type of communism, so an anarchist is also a communist and a socialist.

    By the way, fascism is a type of anarchism, so a fascist is also an anarchist and a communist and a socialist.

    By the way, capitalism is a type of fascism, so a capitalist is also a fascist and an anarchist and a communist and a socialist.

    By the way, socialism is a type of capitalism, so a socialist is also a capitalist and a fascist and an anarchist and a communist and a socialist.

    ow ow ow … help help I’m starting to feel dizzy how do i get out?

  273. #274 BobH
    August 29, 2008

    Two years ago, Sarah Palin was the mayor of Wasilla, Alaska, population, what – about 5000? Think about that.

    Just imagine if Barack had chosen a ‘C-list’ person like Palin as his running mate – goofs like O’Reilly and Hannity would have torn him apart! I can’t wait to hear how they drool over McCain’s “great choice”.

  274. I hate to agree with Rev. BigDumbChimp @ #12 but I do. Even a blind chimp can find a banana once in a while. :P

  275. #276 Chiroptera
    August 29, 2008

    haeldusk, #263: To be honest, anyone who switches votes based on a VP is a few cards short of a full deck, in my opinion.

    I don’t think the intent is to switch votes. The idea is to get people who may have doubts about the candidate and may not vote at all to decide that the candidate understands their concerns and vote after all. It may also serve to energize luke-warm supporters into actively campaigning for the candidate.

  276. #277 Nick Gotts
    August 29, 2008

    peter@176,
    First, if you’ll believe a shameless rag like the Franfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, I’ve no doubt you believe Faux News as well. Here’s a quote from the crap you pointed to:
    “These watermelons aim at becoming the tapeworm in the belly of capitalism, taking the best nutrients and passing on the remnants to the host, of thriving and spawning at the cost of the host becoming lethargic and apathetic. These watermelons aren’t interested in raising the standards of living and improving the lot of the common man: they hold up the chimera of future generations and demand their wergeld.”

    By “watermelons” the writer means environmentalists. He regards the scientific evidence of anthropogenic global warming as an evil commie plot to destroy the free market. In a German context, right-wing rhetoric about “parasites” has a faintly sinister ring about it, don’t you think?

    Your second link says:
    “Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, FAZ, a leading German newspaper, argues that politicians move Germany with the help of a “substitute religion called climate-catastrophe” toward a plan-economy with reduced energy security and lower
    competitiveness.”
    Calling climate science “a substitute religion” is a brazen, barefaced, outright lie. If you don’t know that, you should be ashamed of your ignorance and stupidity. If you do, you’re a liar yourself.

    You don’t even address my second point: what is the relevance of this 17% figure? Unless the industry promised much more, which neither you nor your sources even pretend to show, so what? What is being counted on is the expected performance. Of course the wind doesn’t blow all the time, particularly in any one place. No-one says it does, no-one says you rely on 100% wind energy. No energy source is problem-free, and the question of the best mix is a complex one – simplistic sloganising just won’t do.

  277. #278 skyotter
    August 29, 2008

    she’s been on “The McLaughling Group” radar as potential VP for, like, a year. one of the many reasons i love that show

  278. #279 Ghost of Minnesota
    August 29, 2008

    By the way, evolutionism is a type of Naziism, so an evolutionist is also a Nazi and a socialist and an anarchist and a biologist.

  279. #280 skyotter
    August 29, 2008

    McLaughlin, no g. sheesh, it’s Typo Friday or somethin’

  280. #281 zy
    August 29, 2008

    McCain is a crafty strategist, and what he’s done is pick the VP candidate most likely to elicit sexist remarks from Obama supporters. I’m not sure how much he thinks it’ll accomplish but it looks like he’s gearing up to claim a moral victory. Their morals, not mine.

  281. #282 BillCinSD
    August 29, 2008

    She may be OK on energy, she sort of endorses Obama’s plan. As of August 5, 2008 she said:

    “I am pleased to see Senator Obama acknowledge the huge potential Alaska’s natural gas reserves represent in terms of clean energy and sound jobs,” Governor Palin said. “The steps taken by the Alaska State Legislature this past week demonstrate that we are ready, willing and able to supply the energy our nation needs.”

    “We in Alaska feel that crunch and are taking steps to address it right here at home,” Governor Palin said. “This is a tool that must be on the table to buy us time until our long-term energy plans can be put into place. We have already enjoyed the support of Alaska Senator Ted Stevens, and it is gratifying to see Senator Obama get on board.”

  282. #283 tom j lawson
    August 29, 2008

    The heads of millions of white Christian American men just exploded!

    “Damn! Do we vote for the Canaanite or the evil woman? Hmmm, God was pretty clear in Genesis that women can’t be trusted. If I stay home, the bitches might get her in there, so I had better vote that black dude in. At least he’s half-white. She’s all woman, and I can’t stomach that…”

    Those are future comments at the Christian Coalition website. Right now it’s just the Christian ladies that are worried she’s leaving her 6-month-old alone at home so she can be a “professional” woman. So she’s damned by both sexes! Good choice, McCain!

    Nail + Coffin = Fin

  283. #284 Brownian, OM
    August 29, 2008

    It is so totally sexist to suggest we stop using a good and proper word like “irrational” when it so aptly applies just because the subject happens to be female.

    For similar reasons, I have stopped referring to numbers that cannot be represented in the form m/n where m and n ? ? as ‘hysterical numbers’.

  284. #285 Chiroptera
    August 29, 2008

    tom j lawson, #283: At least he’s half-white. She’s all woman….

    Except that one of Obama’s parents is a woman, the other was black, so that makes him a quarter black woman. One of Palin’s parents is a man, so that makes her half white man.

    Oh god! I fear that this is going to make sense to someone….

  285. #286 Joe Six Pack
    August 29, 2008

    but how many joe (jane) six packs not from Idaho and Alaska knew who she was before this?

    I don’t know ya BigDumbChip @12, how many latte drinkin’, arugula eatin’, elite liberals outside of Illinois knew who Obama was?

  286. #287 Ghost of Minnesota
    August 29, 2008

    Except that one of Obama’s parents is a woman, the other was black, so that makes him a quarter black woman. One of Palin’s parents is a man, so that makes her half white man.
    Oh god! I fear that this is going to make sense to someone….

    But wait! Women have two X chromosomes, while men have one X and one Y chromosomes. Which means that all women are 100% woman, while all men are 50% woman.

    I’m not sure how race factors into that calculation.

  287. #288 Fergy
    August 29, 2008

    I’m confused, is that McCain’s VP pick or his third wife?

  288. #289 Patricia
    August 29, 2008

    Poor ol’ grumpy Meatball. You need some chicken soup, ginger ale and a hug. :(

  289. #290 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    I don’t know ya BigDumbChip @12, how many latte drinkin’, arugula eatin’, elite liberals outside of Illinois knew who Obama was?

    Hi Joe! What time you going fishin’ tomorrow?

  290. #291 Ranxerox
    August 29, 2008

    Can some of you please go and rip some strips out of the IDiots on http://scienceblogs.com/afarensis/2006/10/27/intelligent_design_and_the_ala/

    The IDiots are winning

  291. #292 Scott
    August 29, 2008

    Ugh, my dad was raving about how she’s so great, and all the talk radio assholes have been blathering on all day about her. “WOO SHE GON’ MAKE ABORSHUN GO BYE BYE AN KILL THA GAYS”

    Republicans suck. This is obviously pandering to women who were gonna vote for Clinton.

  292. #293 aleph1=c
    August 29, 2008

    Paul @216: I agree with everything you said except “Ect.”

    Rev.BigDumbChimp @12, 16, 25, 30, 74, 93, 96, 102, 110, 114, 119, 148, 156, 177, 198, 199, 202, 211, 219: Did you say you were in your office? Are you getting any work done? I, for one, am not.

    Rev.BigDumbChimp @219: Hey you big meanie! Lay off my little Libertarian friend!

    And to Make PZ @245 happy: Gee, Obama and McCain sure are funny looking, but that MILF (credit BluesBassist @173) is really…oh, I just can’t do it.

    But she pisses me off royally. Too bad for her 5th kid.

    Ben @247: Thanks for your careful note-taking. Now I think I’ll make a sandwich…

  293. #294 Carlie
    August 29, 2008

    It is so totally sexist to suggest we stop using a good and proper word like “irrational” when it so aptly applies just because the subject happens to be female.

    When was the last time you saw any reference to irrational male voters? That’s ok, I’ll wait.

  294. #295 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Rev.BigDumbChimp @12, 16, 25, 30, 74, 93, 96, 102, 110, 114, 119, 148, 156, 177, 198, 199, 202, 211, 219: Did you say you were in your office? Are you getting any work done? I, for one, am not.

    Boring conference calls all day where I am only there to represent my department. So essentially no. No work at all. Now I’m home thinking about opening a beer.

  295. #296 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    When was the last time you saw any reference to irrational male voters? That’s ok, I’ll wait.

    Oh please, if someone is irrational they are irrational. I don’t give a fuck if they are male, female, black, white, straight, gay, vegetarian or a cannibal.

    As I detailed above, if someone decides to go against their values and vote opposite them or abstain from voting just to spite, that is the action of an irrational person.

  296. #297 Carlie
    August 29, 2008

    And yet, the word doesn’t tend to be applied to male voters, just female ones. Specifically, just the female ones who supported Clinton. What Tabby was saying is that it’s a dog whistle to people who think of women as cute and hysterical and not worth listening to, and particularly conjures up that connotation for most people.

  297. #298 llewelly
    August 29, 2008

    But wait! Women have two X chromosomes, while men have one X and one Y chromosomes. Which means that all women are 100% woman, while all men are 50% woman.
    I’m not sure how race factors into that calculation.

    oh noes!!! duh wimminz have invaded our chromozones!!

  298. #299 aleph1=c
    August 29, 2008

    No work at all. Now I’m home thinking about opening a beer.

    Nice! Me too, except at some time I’ll have to go and return some videos.

  299. #300 Dan L.
    August 29, 2008

    “A capitalist anarchic state is not a logical contradiction — a capitalist communist state is (at least in theory. But see: China).
    Ugh. I don’t have time to deal with the level of ignorance exhibited in that comment right now. On anarchism, here’s Peter Kropotkin, anarchist-communist (1910):

    http://dwardmac.pitzer.edu/Anarchist_Archives/kropotkin/britanniaanarchy.html

    “Anarcho-capitalism” is a grotesque, self-contradictory term. Do not be fooled.”

    All right, way to be a condescending prick. I was going to post an errata saying that a “capitalist anarchist state” is a logical contradiction, seeing as you can’t really have an “anarchist state.” However, if you want me to believe that communism implies anarchy, then you’re going to have to produce (A) a set of necessary conditions for communism, (B) a set of sufficient conditions for anarchy, and (P) a set of supporting premises, and finally show that (A) implies (B).

    I have a feeling that the reason you decided that I exhibited “ignorance” is that you and I are working from different definitions of anarchy. Obviously, if you’re talking about a system as defined by a “communo-anarchist” you’re going to be of the opinion that anarchy and communism are very close to the same thing if not the same thing outright. I was using anarchy as a descriptor for a system of “government” without the government. Which does not preclude people pooling resources to support other people in producing products that can then be traded for even more resources.

    Do I think such a system is workable? No. But I don’t think communo-anarchism is workable either.

    Besides that, since when is ignorance something to brush off as hopeless? Presumably you don’t really know anything about me except that I might be a little misinformed on the historical roots of anarchy (in the sense of a political system). If you’re going to call me or any assertions of mine ignorant, why don’t you actually ask me why I think those things or explain why you think the way I do? You know, instead of being a condescending prick.

  300. #301 Carlie
    August 29, 2008

    The whole “Hillary voters switching to McCain” thing seems to me to be a lot like the evangelical “I used to be an atheist until I met God” thing. Sure, there are a few of those people who exist, but their positions were not thought out, or thought out very poorly, and therefore easily changed. Just as most hard-core atheists think that the “atheism” of the likes of Kirk Cameron was entirely not thought out and therefore not a reasoned and understood position, so the hard-core Clinton supporters see the McCain switchers.

  301. #302 TX CHL Instructor
    August 29, 2008

    @226: “she has substantially less experience than Obama or Biden”

    Huh? Unless you are counting BHO’s complete failure in his stint as Chairman of the Chicago Annenberg Challenge (CAC) see: http://www.riehlworldview.com/carnivorous_conservative/2008/08/doc-drop-obama.html, Palin has more executive experience than BHO and Biden combined.

    If only McCain wasn’t a RINO, I could actually get enthusiastic about him. As for the bible-thumping IDiots, both parties are going to pander to the prevailing superstition, so you aren’t going to get away from that unless you vote Libertarian. Frankly, I’m a bit surprised that the folks who hang around here aren’t so one-issue focused that they aren’t all Libertarians just for that reason, but apparently, most of you Dims are so memerized by the Obamassiah that you can’t see the fact that he’s just as much a bible-thumper as McCain — it’s just that the version he thumps is re-written in a black racist vein handed down by one of his mentors. Oh, I forgot, his now ex-pastor was tossed under the bus (but surely that’s ok, anything can be forgiven for a Democrat).

    Here’s an interesting picture of another of BHO’s mentors: http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_LD_Ah5tLKV8/SLcARXd6LcI/AAAAAAAAArA/NKdTuVLj6rI/s1600-h/BillAyersfeatures_ayers1.jpg

    Maybe that’s where his wife got her hatred for America, too.

  302. #303 KayI
    August 29, 2008

    By the way, has anyone commented yet on the fact that the Republican convention may be delayed due to rain – in fact, due to a hurricane. Seems like that Fundi who prayed for rain on Obama needs to work on his aim.

  303. #304 Ghost of Minnesota
    August 29, 2008

    By the way, has anyone commented yet on the fact that the Republican convention may be delayed due to rain – in fact, due to a hurricane. Seems like that Fundi who prayed for rain on Obama needs to work on his aim.

    If a hurricane hits St. Paul, God needs to work on his aim.

  304. #305 CalGeorge
    August 29, 2008

    She enjoys killing defenseless animals with guns, from a helicopter if possible.

    Can’t stand her, so Rove has probably achieved his number one goal: annoying hordes of liberals.

  305. #306 uncle frogy
    August 29, 2008

    Posted by: RichardPena | August 29, 2008 2:08 PM

    @BrianD: the advancement of fission power plant designs is far beyond what you seen to be talking about. Nuke power *is* a very distinct possibility. No one said anything about 80% like France. You’d do well to research *current* designs, how the waste issue is more political than anything scientific., how many modern designs have very little waste, and *that* waste can be used in a different type of power plant. As for proliferation, isn’t “oh noes teh terrorists” a GOP talking point?

    I am sorry if this goes astray some but I disagree that anything has been solved in the waste area nor will it. maybe the waste fuel may be able to be reused that is the most radioactive fraction of the waste stream but in no way the only waste generated. the largest waste segment would be the huge building that remains after the eventual decommissioning and is unavoidable. While it is not all High Level waste you wont be able to turn it into a shopping mall nor use much of it in highway construction like any other used concrete. Include the rest of “low level waste” which must be “sequestered” for longer than any government or society has ever lasted and it begins to sound ridiculously optimistic.

    as far as the republican VP goes, well she might just be as much of a maverick as John Macain is which is to say neither are liberal in any way but that they rub the republican leadership the wrong way often enough and tend to follow their own counsel which I can respect though I seldom agree with.

  306. #307 cyan
    August 29, 2008

    TX CHL instructor @ 302:

    What is the evidence that has made you think that Michelle Obama hates America?

  307. #308 Norman Doering
    August 29, 2008

    Sarah Palin supported Pat Buchanan:
    http://www.hurryupharry.org/2008/08/29/palin-backed-buchanan-in-1999/

    Hat tip to Andrew Sullivan

  308. #309 Steve_C
    August 29, 2008

    What fuckin Planet is TX from? He should go back. Shouldn’t you be at LGF or NRO?

    Fucking lying ass tool.

  309. #310 llewelly
    August 29, 2008

    TX CHL Instructor :

    Frankly, I’m a bit surprised that the folks who hang around here aren’t so one-issue focused that they aren’t all Libertarians just for that reason, but apparently, most of you Dims are so memerized by the Obamassiah that you can’t see the fact that he’s just as much a bible-thumper as McCain — it’s just that the version he thumps is re-written in a black racist vein handed down by one of his mentors.

    Obama’s ‘relationship with god’ has been discussed at length here . Your assertion to the contrary displays your ignorance. As to Obama being a ‘black racist’ – this is always what ignorants say when a black man says he’s faced some difficulties due to his race. It’s bullshit.

  310. #311 Joe Six Pack
    August 29, 2008

    Hi Joe! What time you going fishin’ tomorrow?

    Hey BigDumbChimp, I usually leave the house about 4:00 AM. Fishin’s been pretty good, we’ve had mild weather. Bass been hitting pretty good.

  311. #312 CraigX
    August 29, 2008

    She’ll crush Biden in the swimsuit portion of the debates.

  312. #313 Ichthyic
    August 29, 2008

    McCain is a crafty strategist

    ROFLMAO

    yeah, just ask him how crafty his strategy was of trying to wean the GoP away from the religious right in 2000.

    Well, that is in case it wasn’t obvious since he changed his religion to fit in with the fundies in this election cycle, attempted to rewrite his own legislative history RE gay marriage and abortion, and now meets with the fundies on a regular basis.

    You CAN say he learns his lessons well, but a good strategist?

    completely laughable.

  313. #314 Cheezits
    August 29, 2008

    Picking Palin is just one more attempt to win over the neocons and fundamentalists.

    This was all he could come up with?

  314. #315 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    And yet, the word doesn’t tend to be applied to male voters, just female ones. Specifically, just the female ones who supported Clinton. What Tabby was saying is that it’s a dog whistle to people who think of women as cute and hysterical and not worth listening to, and particularly conjures up that connotation for most people.

    I don’t usually apply it to voters at all. Generally I apply it to people who are being irrational in whatever action it may be.

    I get what both of you are saying but if someone actually is being irrational, I will call them that. It’s a disservice to rational people to pussyfoot around it just because the person acting like a fool happens to be women. We’re treading dangerously close to PC paranoia here.

    I’m not going to call them brilliant for an action I find to be utterly insane.

    The whole “Hillary voters switching to McCain” thing seems to me to be a lot like the evangelical “I used to be an atheist until I met God” thing. Sure, there are a few of those people who exist, but their positions were not thought out, or thought out very poorly, and therefore easily changed. Just as most hard-core atheists think that the “atheism” of the likes of Kirk Cameron was entirely not thought out and therefore not a reasoned and understood position, so the hard-core Clinton supporters see the McCain switchers.

    You just got on my case for calling them Irrational and then this?

    We agree Carlie.

  315. #316 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    Hey BigDumbChimp, I usually leave the house about 4:00 AM. Fishin’s been pretty good, we’ve had mild weather. Bass been hitting pretty good.

    Well hell, I’ll be up at 4 myself heading out to a cypress swamp for some early morning photography. I doubt I’ll catch any bass but maybe a gator or two.

  316. #317 genesgalore
    August 29, 2008

    there is not a woman who supported rodham that would support palin…… do i have this right??.. a forty something women is pregnant with her 5th child and knows it’s a down’s baby and doesn’t opt to try the pregnancy again???…. she might get some republican women to get out and vote that would otherwise have stayed to home. but that’s it….. she’s a plain mean woman.

  317. #318 Longtime Lurker
    August 29, 2008

    I first heard about S.P. in the context of her vendetta against her ex-brother-in-law, and her defense of Ted “Tubes” Stevens. I think the “Great Orange Satan” had an article about it a month or so ago. The timing was exquisite!

    This is an appropriate cudgel to use against Palin:

    “It’s an absolutely brilliant choice,” said Mathew Staver, dean of Liberty University School of Law. “This will absolutely energize McCain’s campaign and energize conservatives.”

    Tie her to Monica Goodling, and the Liberty University “Charlie Foxtrot” of the Justice Department, and she’s toast.

    Upon hearing of this choice of running mate, I immediately got the suspicion that McCain will drop out of the race during the convention, citing health concerns as a reason. If not, maybe he’ll make some weird sort of sexist gaffe while sharing the stage with her:

    http://rawstory.com/news/2008/McCain_temper_boiled_over_in_92_0407.html

  318. #319 Kel
    August 29, 2008

    It was a good pick by McCain trying to go after the female vote, though her creationist leanings should be a real concern. It’s like picking a female Huckabee.

  319. #320 Ethan K
    August 29, 2008

    Dennis: We’re an anarcho-syndicalist commune. We take it in turns to act as sort-of-executive officer for the week–
    Arthur: Yes.
    Dennis: But all the decisions of that officer have to be ratified at a special biweekly meeting–
    Arthur: Yes, I see.
    Dennis: By a simple majority, in the case of purely internal affairs–
    Arthur: [getting bored] Be quiet.
    Dennis: But by a two thirds majority, in the case of more major–
    Arthur: Be quiet! I order you to be quiet!
    Dennis’ Mother: Order, eh? Who does he think he is?
    Arthur: I am your king!
    Dennis’ Mother: Well I didn’t vote for you.
    Arthur: You don’t vote for kings!

    …Oh wait. Wrong Palin. But hey, anarcho-communism!

  320. #321 eddie
    August 29, 2008

    Lets be clear on the hillary crossover thing.
    She got a lot of help in the primaries from people who were only ever gonna support gop in the general election, even to the extent of winning a state with help from diebold.
    The race was only close for this reason.

  321. #322 Carlie
    August 29, 2008

    I’m not saying those people aren’t irrational, I was just agreeing that irrational can be a loaded term specifically when talking about women as a group.

  322. #323 aleph1=c
    August 29, 2008

    I was just watching the local evening news, where they had some NOW spokeswoman gushing about how great it is that there is a woman running for VP. What the hell?? Since Palin has pretty much the opposite views on everything NOW stands for, this spokeswoman should catch hell. The NOW’s official stance from their website:

    What McCain does not understand is that women supported Hillary Clinton not just because she was a woman, but because she was a champion on their issues. They will surely not find Sarah Palin to be an advocate for women.

    Sen. Joe Biden is the VP candidate who appeals to women, with his authorship and championing of landmark domestic violence legislation, support for pay equity, and advocacy for women around the world.

    Finally, as the chair of NOW’s Political Action Committee, I am frequently asked whether NOW supports women candidates just because they are women. This gives me an opportunity to once again answer that question with an emphatic ‘No.’ We recognize the importance of having women’s rights supporters at every level but, like Sarah Palin, not every woman supports women’s rights.

  323. #324 shonny
    August 29, 2008

    Posted by: freelunch | August 29, 2008 11:55 AM

    This is a bit like bringing up a pitcher from Single-A baseball right before the World Series.

    Isn’t that ‘World Series’ just a backyard (US) competition?

  324. #325 Canuck
    August 29, 2008

    Well, I wouldn’t vote for her, from the little I’ve read in the last hour. She seems like a typical extreme right winger, and an ID proponent.

    But politics aside, I’d have to agree with the folks up thread who said she’s hot. At 44 she’s lookin’ good and has considerable sex appeal that is very apparent.

    Last thing. When she was giving her acceptance speech, McCain looked like a lost puppy. She’s got a lot more presence than he does, and she may upstage him during the campaign. He seems old, stiff, and tired looking in comparison. I don’t see how that Rethug ticket has a hope in hell of winning the election. If the US elects them over Obama and Biden, there’s no hope for the country.

  325. #326 clinteas
    August 29, 2008

    All that this VP choice really shows is that it is not about qualification or experience at all,but strictly about effect,and perceived attractiveness to a certain group of voters.

    It boggles the mind to think a governor with 1 year experience,who is for drilling in the arctic(and presumably unfazed by all this global warming talk),for risking womens lifes instead of having abortions,for teaching creationism in schools,could be seriously considered qualified to be a VP with a good chance of actually taking over office of POTUS if McCains Alzheimer’s gets to the point where he would have to be removed quietly.
    I see this spun on CNN as a brilliant move,but I utterly fail to see how.To me McCain has just totally dropped his pants,and discredited his own campaign.

  326. #327 John C. Randolph
    August 29, 2008

    Hillary Clinton and her female supports have been subject to sexist smears for months now.

    Gee, I’d have some sympathy for them then, if it weren’t for the racist smears they were tossing at Obama.

    Get real.

    -jcr

  327. #328 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    I’m not saying those people aren’t irrational, I was just agreeing that irrational can be a loaded term specifically when talking about women as a group.

    yes I understand that. But if it is applicable to a group of people acting irrationally then it is justified. Calling a group of women acting irrationally … irrational, it is not the same thing as calling all women irrational.

  328. #329 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    in addition and to repeat myself…

    Not all of the Hillary cross-overs are female.

  329. #330 JoJo
    August 29, 2008

    Isn’t that ‘World Series’ just a backyard (US) competition?

    That just shows you how iggerant non-Americans can be. The Toronto Blue Jays won back-to-back World Series championships in 1992 and 1993.

  330. #331 Longtime Lurker
    August 29, 2008

    Good Alaskan perspective on Palin:

    http://mudflats.wordpress.com/2008/08/29/what-is-mccain-thinking-one-alaskans-perspective/

    I think Palin’s candidacy is toast, as soon as the word gets out.

  331. #332 John C. Randolph
    August 29, 2008

    I think Palin’s candidacy is toast, as soon as the word gets out.

    You wish.

    The woman’s got an 80% approval rating in Alaska.

    -jcr

  332. #333 YoYou
    August 29, 2008

    This is a political trap set up by John McCain. Say what you will about his judgment, the guy might have made a very calculated move here. If democrats take the bait they’re done for. Any attack on her would undoubtedly cause a sympathetic reaction. She is a mother of a small child and a soon to be deployed soldier. She has baggage (the firing scandal) and McCain should have known that beforehand, so he definitely knew what he was doing. He got her so democrats can take the bait. Don’t fall for it (too late…looks like it’s already happened).

  333. #334 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    That just shows you how iggerant non-Americans can be. The Toronto Blue Jays won back-to-back World Series championships in 1992 and 1993.

    Stupid Dave Winfield

    grumble grumble

  334. #335 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 29, 2008

    The woman’s got an 80% approval rating in Alaska.

    Meaning what exactly in a national election?

  335. #336 Zeno
    August 29, 2008

    Hans back in #35 said the choice of Palin “defangs Biden,” because now he won’t be able to play rough in the veep debate. I don’t think Biden is going to hold back because Palin is a “girl”. She’s playing in the big time now, so Biden will treat her as a grown-up. The punches won’t be pulled, although maybe he’ll be chivalrous enough to put velvet gloves on his fists. And perhaps Palin is a good debater. Who knows?

    And maybe she’ll wear her glasses and tell Biden, “Oh, you wouldn’t hurt a girl with glasses, would you?” But it won’t work.

  336. #337 llewelly
    August 29, 2008

    Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT :

    The woman’s got an 80% approval rating in Alaska.

    Meaning what exactly in a national election?

    Don’t knock 3 electoral votes. McCain needs everything he can get.

  337. #338 Wowbagger
    August 29, 2008

    As a non-American who watched the last debacle with horror, I’m wondering what’s been done to prevent this election being handed to the Republicans courtesy of rigged electronic voting machines and tactics used to keep likely Democratic party voters from getting to the polls in key areas.

    If the public can be convinced that it was a close race (as the patently dishonest media are claiming) that the Republicans won by a tiny margin then they won’t be inclined to do anything about it. Being able to say, ‘we won because women voted for a female VP’ gives them an argument to feed, via the aforementioned biased news sources, to an undiscriminating public who’ll just accept it.

    ‘Oh, yeah – woman VP. That’s why they got the votes. Fair enough. Oh, well; it’s only four more years. Now, to the important stuff – what’s Britney done this time?’

  338. #339 John C. Randolph
    August 29, 2008

    He got her so democrats can take the bait. Don’t fall for it (too late…looks like it’s already happened).

    No kidding. You should see the venom all over the Daily Kos right now.

    I thought Obama was going to win in a landslide, but he’s really surprised me. I wasn’t expecting him to pull a Mondale on himself by beating that “national service” drum, and I sure as hell didn’t expect him to pick a man who’s spent half his life in the senate after pushing that “change we can believe in” line for so many months.

    If Obama wins at all, it looks to me like it’s going to be a squeaker.

    -jcr

  339. #340 Wowbagger
    August 29, 2008

    If Obama wins at all, it looks to me like it’s going to be a squeaker.

    As I said I implied in my earlier post (#338): the Republicans are doing everything they can – with the support of the media – to make it look like it’s going to be a close race. If they win steal what’s perceived to be a close race, few people are going to make a fuss; they didn’t the last two times.

  340. #341 John C. Randolph
    August 29, 2008

    few people are going to make a fuss; they didn’t the last two times.

    I guess you missed the six months of wailing and gnashing of teeth that accompanied each of the elections that GWB won. (Yes, he did win them, and they were very close.)

    -jcr

  341. #342 Ichthyic
    August 29, 2008

    Yes, he did win them

    sez you.

    …but let’s not go there, again.

  342. #343 foxfire
    August 29, 2008

    @ Everyone regarding Kel’s #319 (and other comments):

    It was a good pick by McCain trying to go after the female vote, though her creationist leanings should be a real concern. It’s like picking a female Huckabee.

    It’s not just the female vote. It’s the conservative Republican “base” too. And the Independents who thought the “maverick” was replaced by a robot. Very smart move on McCain’s part. Strategically delivered so the media focus of today (Friday) was on McCain’s pick, not Obama’s speech and the upcoming disaster in the Gulf.

    I need more data (not just the media spin being generated big-time on both sides of the [R=L NOT!] equation) before I decide that she’s just a “female Huckabee”.

    I’m impressed by her willingness to take on corruption regardless of political affiliation, her strength (she ain’t no burka-wearing woman), her skills (e.g., communication, ability to balance work with family, run a local government, defeat an incumbent for the governor’s position and maintain a high approval rating) and the fact she is not a career politician.

    I’m horrified at her lack of understanding about how science works (buying the “teach the controversy in a SCIENCE class as opposed to say, a PHILOSOPHY class that tries to instill an understanding of how science and religion are different).

    I’m respectful of her PERSONAL decision to bear a Downs Syndrome child (my husband’s son and wife were faced with that decision) and I’m very suspicious that she might not want that to be a PERSONAL decision.

    I do NOT agree with her position on Gay Marriage big-time since I think the world would be better off if people tried to make their OWN relationships work, rather than defining how everyone else should live.

    I’m annoyed at the people who use small-town-mayor as a rational reason to disregard the woman. Perhaps such people have NEVER participated in local government. Showing up at school board meetings to stop the creobots is commendable and has nothing to do with how local government actually works. That does NOT mean I think she is ready to lead this nation at the drop of a hat.

    For me, the situation is still very, very, gray. I need more data and need to learn more about her position with respect to State’s Rights.

    Jury is still out from my perspective. So sue me ;-)

    P.S. To the gutless wimps who are thinking about NOT voting. Not having an ideal situation does *not* relieve one of one’s RESPONSIBILITY to make the best rational, educated choice one can make. Particularly where voting is generally NOT an option, from a overall-humanity perspective.

  343. #344 Ichthyic
    August 29, 2008

    I’m impressed by her willingness to take on corruption regardless of political affiliation

    including her own?

    see upthread for linkage.

  344. #345 Wowbagger
    August 29, 2008

    I guess you missed the six months of wailing and gnashing of teeth that accompanied each of the elections that GWB won.

    No, I recall the outcry from a certain small, vocal minority; downplayed by the mainstream media (in the US at least) and conveniently ignored by the majority. By ‘fuss’ I meant react in such a way to make it clear that they would stop at nothing to ensure that it couldn’t ever happen again.

    I read about a lot of dirty tricks in the last two elections – what’s to stop them doing it again? Has anything happened? Like I said, I’m not in the US; I don’t remember hearing anything about any changes being made. What’s being done to ensure the same computer ‘glitches’ don’t occur? Are certain groups of people going to once again find they’ve been taken off the rolls? Are those in key areas going to be able to get to where they need to go to cast their votes?

  345. #346 clinteas
    August 29, 2008

    foxfire,

    //I’m impressed by her willingness to take on corruption regardless of political affiliation//

    the lady is facing charges herself LOL

    //Showing up at school board meetings to stop the creobots is commendable and has nothing to do with how local government actually works.//

    From what I have read so far,she IS a creobot.

  346. #347 Neil Schipper
    August 29, 2008

    (Language warning)

    From the CNN article linked in the original post, Palin said:

    “Hillary left 18 million cracks in the highest, hardest glass ceiling in America.”

    Wouldn’t slits have been a little more mainstream?

    But seriously, isn’t is true that the higher the glass ceiling, the better?

  347. #348 Longtime Lurker
    August 30, 2008

    Uhhh…jcr:

    The woman’s got an 80% approval rating in Alaska.

    Read up some more, her approval rating is now about 67% as more facts emerge about her trooper scandal and her abysmal stint as mayor.

  348. #349 BobC
    August 30, 2008

    Are those in key areas going to be able to get to where they need to go to cast their votes?

    Yes if they can get past the police roadblocks and the snipers.

  349. #350 John C. Randolph
    August 30, 2008

    …but let’s not go there, again.

    Gore and Kerry both lost, get over it. Don’t try blaming Nader, and please spare me the conspiracy theory crap.

    -jcr

  350. #351 llewelly
    August 30, 2008

    What’s being done to ensure the same computer ‘glitches’ don’t occur?

    If you read Schneier’s blog, you would know the sad truth: very little .
    We’re gambling that no one will cheat.

  351. #352 Bubba Sixpack
    August 30, 2008

    She’s also one of those “man-made global warming is a liberal science conspiracy” wackos.

  352. #353 John C. Randolph
    August 30, 2008

    outcry from a certain small, vocal minority; downplayed by the mainstream media

    Downplayed? Are you serious? It was wall-to-wall for weeks as the MSM was trying to find a way to sink GWB.

    Rather completely blew it by trying to be Woodward and Bernstein with incompetent forgeries.

    -jcr

  353. #354 Ichthyic
    August 30, 2008

    Don’t try blaming Nader, and please spare me the conspiracy theory crap.

    I never mentioned Nader, so fuck you on that one.

    as to other, I’m sure you easily dismiss all the voting irregularities, the foibles of Katherine Harris, and all the rest as “conspriacy theory crap”.

    but then, when you spew as much crap as your wont to do, it’s not surprising you start to think everything else is crap, too.

    go back to the old-folks home, John.

  354. #355 Bubba Sixpack
    August 30, 2008

    Well, loony as they are, at least the Repubs don’t spit on their own base like the Dems do.

  355. #356 Patricia
    August 30, 2008

    Good night sweethearts! :)

  356. #357 Wowbagger
    August 30, 2008

    It was wall-to-wall for weeks as the MSM was trying to find a way to sink GWB.

    Are you high? Good grief. I know from your posts on other issues that you have a somewhat skewed perception of reality but this is unbelievable.

  357. #358 John C. Randolph
    August 30, 2008

    Well Icthyic, I see that you’re bound and determined to continue the recent democratic tradition of sulking over GWB’s election. Do you think for a second that it will help Obama win this time?

    go back to the old-folks home, John.

    Heh. Got a couple of decades to go before I’m ready to retire to Bali.

    -jcr

  358. #359 John C. Randolph
    August 30, 2008

    Are you high?

    Goodness, what an effective rebuttal. When did I hear that one last? Oh, yeah… It was when somebody took exception to my desire to end the drug war.

    But since you asked, no: I’m not high. I’ve been stone cold sober for my entire life.

    -jcr

  359. #360 Scott from Oregon
    August 30, 2008

    http://www.salon.com/opinion/greenwald/2008/08/25/blue_dogs/print.html

    At some point, you have to ask, Government by what people FOR WHAT PEOPLE?

    The democrats are knee deep in this and the smell won’t leave for years…

  360. #361 John C. Randolph
    August 30, 2008

    at least the Repubs don’t spit on their own base like the Dems do.

    Many of them have the same contempt for the people that most career politicians do, but they generally don’t let it show. When they decide to vilify poor people, they’ll be very specific (like complaining about “welfare queens”, for example.)

    -jcr

  361. #362 John C. Randolph
    August 30, 2008

    Damn, Scott. That article was depressing. Not in any way surprising, but depressing nevertheless.

    -jcr

  362. #363 John C. Randolph
    August 30, 2008

    anarchism is a type of communism, so an anarchist is also a communist and a socialist.

    I know quite a few anarchists who would take exception that.

    -jcr

  363. #364 Wowbagger
    August 30, 2008

    Goodness, what an effective rebuttal. When did I hear that one last? Oh, yeah… It was when somebody took exception to my desire to end the drug war.

    But since you asked, no: I’m not high. I’ve been stone cold sober for my entire life.

    Good for you, I guess. I think you’ve missed out on some interesting experiences but that’s neither here nor there.

    Anyway, I thought it a fair question, considering you were asserting that the mainstream media in the US isn’t pro-Bush/pro-Republican. I can’t fathom how anyone could come to that conclusion without the benefit of some extensive psychopharmacology.

    Would you say that is true of Fox News?

  364. #365 bric
    August 30, 2008

    Matt Heath #144: this opens up a whole new possibility of Macheath jokes. ‘A highwayman, hero of The Beggar’s Opera, by Gay. A fine, gay, bold-faced ruffian, game to the very last’ – Brewer’s.
    Ted Heath, former UK Prime Minister according to many in a position to know was quite literally a sucker, but preferred not to discuss it.
    AND, was I the only one who thought Cruella de Ville? . . . not waving but drowning . . .

  365. #366 bric
    August 30, 2008

    Wowbagger #364: Yes I have been assured by a gay born-again libertarian Republican that the US media is totally left-wing and universally devoted to destroying God’s Party. Mind you he is a recovering alcoholic and continuing recreational drug user.

  366. #367 Feynmaniac
    August 30, 2008

    Hmmm, the Republicans seem to be so insecure of getting impeached that they look for the most unqualified person for the VP slot.

    Bush the Lesser picked Cheney, the darkest and most evil of the Republican party and that is saying something. Many would consider a Cheney presidency a sign of the apocalypse.

    Bush Sr. picked Quayle. As recent events have shown a complete dumbass as president could only do harm. Luckily, unlike Cheney, Quayle was so powerless during his reign that the worst evil he commited was ruining a spelling bee for a kid.

    Now Mccain is ensuring his doctors will do anything they can, perhaps even donating the body parts of their children, to keep him alive.

  367. #368 Wowbagger
    August 30, 2008

    Yes I have been assured by a gay born-again libertarian Republican that the US media is totally left-wing and universally devoted to destroying God’s Party. Mind you he is a recovering alcoholic and continuing recreational drug user.

    Considering the amount of cognitive dissonance he’s carrying around with him I can’t say I’m surprised.

    The US media could easily destroy the GOP – all they’d have to do is that which they’re supposed to do: tell people the truth. Sadly, almost all media organisations are the unprofitable arms of bigger businesses; presenting the facts is secondary to the parent company’s ability to generate income and act in the best interests of the shareholders and office bearers. As long as it’s advantageous for them to steer the public away from reality (to keep the ad revenue coming in and aid the politicians who can ensure that the CEOs/owners pay less tax) they’ll keep doing it.

  368. #369 Jason
    August 30, 2008

    The media is heavily biased towards the political right. 1) The Democratic Party’s position is not (with a few [unfortunately fewer and fewer] exceptions) the position of the left wing in America
    2) The news almost never reports perspectives of non-Americans (for example, when was the last time the media paraded around 90% of the Iraqi people want the US out immediately)
    3) Regardless of whether or not reporters are liberal (admittedly, a small majority are), the ultimate decisions of what constitutes news, and what gets played on the air is in the hands of conservative multi-billionaire media moguls who own the media outlets.
    4) Sometimes there aren’t two sides to an issue, sometimes one side is simply correct, and other positions are idiotic (Evolution vs Creationism; for the same reasons we dont debate babies coming from the womb vs babies coming from the stork). Moreover, in cases with opinion, there are usually way more than two simple positions, but the news assumes that if it has a right winger debate a far right winger (dem. vs rep.) that the debate has been satisfied.
    5) All major media outlets are privately owned in the U.S. There are no public news sources like BBC (UK) or CBC (Canada). There are no media outlets that answer to the public, only to a private owner in the same fashion as a tyrannical dictatorship (that IS the power structure of a corporation).
    6) American news can barely be described as such. See CNN Headline News to see what I mean. Its closer to MTV / Entertainment Tonight than the plain but totally informative news that other countries recieve. Divided by actual content and substance, U.S. news might be the worst in the free world.
    7) American news allows and makes completely unfounded claims, but treats them as permissable by adding a ‘?’ at the end (ex. Barrak Obama a Muslim?)
    I could go on…

  369. #370 foxfire
    August 30, 2008

    @ Longtime Lurker #331: Thank you for the information! That issue bothers me quite a bit and it’s been spun two diametrically opposed ways. I need to spend some time checking out Mudflats blog (and other sources of info for that state)

    @ Ichthyic #344: You meant Longtime’s # 331 right? His posted before mine and I didn’t have a chance to catch-up before now.

    @ Everyone: I was thinking of what one might write-in in the event that none of the candidates meets one’s criteria of less-than-desirable-but-acceptable. Although “None of the Above” and “Mickey Mouse” get the point across about not-acceptable, these choices are not helpful in communicating what might work.

    Toying with the idea that “Reason, Science, Mutual Respect” might work, I was wondering if anyone has come across some kind of effort to coordinate a meaningful write-in. It would be interesting if the write-in was an obvious link to a website like, (for example) noneoftheabove.com

    Reason I ask is because the situation reminds me of the “old” Arlo Gutherie song, Alice’s Restaurant”:

    You know, if one person, just one person does it they may think he’s really sick and
    they won’t take him. And if two people, two people do it, in harmony,
    they may think they’re both faggots and they won’t take either of them.
    And three people do it, three, can you imagine, three people walking in
    singin a bar of Alice’s Restaurant and walking out. They may think it’s an
    organization. And can you, can you imagine fifty people a day,I said
    fifty people a day walking in singin a bar of Alice’s Restaurant and
    walking out. And friends they may thinks it’s a movement.

  370. #371 Charon
    August 30, 2008

    @51: Are you sure Al Gore ended his speech “God bless you?” I certainly didn’t hear that, and noticed it emphatically given that everyone else had done that. That line is also not in his speech text. (A similar line was in his speech text in 2004, so it’s not like they don’t put those lines in the text.)

    I think you are wrong. And yay Al Gore.

  371. #372 foxfire
    August 30, 2008

    Addendum to # 370:

    Regarding “Alice’s Restaurant”: I just leased the domain name notlistedabove.org for one year. I didn’t purchase any server space, lacking the knowledge and/or talent to set up a website.

    If anybody is interested in using notlistedabove.org, please feel free to speak up, because we do need to connect.

  372. #373 eddie
    August 30, 2008

    Re Icthyic, JCR, Llewelly;

    What’s being done to ensure the same computer ‘glitches’ don’t occur? Are certain groups of people going to once again find they’ve been taken off the rolls?…

    Steal back your vote. http://www.gregpalast.com/steal-back-your-vote-2

    and links therein.

  373. #374 peter
    August 30, 2008

    Nick Gotts @277
    those links were to establish that the article asserting the 17% bit actually existed: I wasn’t associating myself with the content of the pages referring to the article. The quote you give comes from one of the pages, and not the FAZ.
    The FAZ is not my paper in fact, but it’s is virtually the only one which dares to publish the truth in an article like that, which makes it an indispensable antidote to the near left-wing monopoly on news nowadays. Your reaction, and that of the other clacquers round here against anything which doesn’t toe the neo-leftist line speaks volumes, and makes me worried about freedom of speech in the western world.

    I was doing you a favour when I didn’t deal with your point, ” what is the relevance of this 17% figure?”
    I just couldn’t believe anybody could be be technically/economically illiterate and/or environmentally promiscuous. Don’t you understand that capital investment has an environmental cost, quite apart from its burden to society. Something has to give for these unused resources: fewer hospitals, worse medical care, more damage to the environment elsewhere.

    Go and do ‘O’ level economics.

  374. #375 John C. Randolph
    August 30, 2008

    Wowbagger,

    As it happens, Fox News is the odd man out in the American media industry. The three major networks all have a very solid bias in favor of the democrats, and have since at least the Nixon administration. The last time they were against the democrats in any meaningful way would have been when they lined up against Johnson over the Vietnam war.

    I can’t fathom how anyone could come to that conclusion

    I actually live here, and I see it first-hand. You’re in Australia, is it?

    -jcr

  375. #376 Nibien
    August 30, 2008

    Is John C. Randolph just the old user “J” with a different name?

  376. #377 Nick Gotts
    August 30, 2008

    What effect is she (or Biden, for that matter) going to have on policy? None, unless the president dies, and really the chances of that are not so high as to make it worth voting on. – haelduksf

    According to
    http://www.disastercenter.com/cdc/Death%20rates%202005.html the death rate for white US males, 70-74, is around 3.2% per annum. For 75-79 year-olds, its just over 5% per annum. So the chance of a randomly selected white male of 72 dying in the next 4 1/2 years is going to be around 15% (I haven’t done the detailed maths). McCain is from a wealthy background and has a living mother, which would reduce his chances of dying, statistically speaking, but is also a survivor of both cancer and long-term ill-treatment, both of which age you. Add in the chances of him becoming incapacitated enough to force resignation, and I’d guess you’re getting up to around 1/4 or 1/3. Anyone thinking of voting for McCain (ignoring the fact that they must be crazy anyway), should take the very real possibility of getting President Palin into account.

  377. #378 Wowbagger
    August 30, 2008

    I actually live here, and I see it first-hand. You’re in Australia, is it?

    Yes, I’m in Australia – so I will accept that, living in another country, I don’t see everything you see.

    But I read/see a lot of international news, much of which is from the US. I’m aware there’s news coverage in US that isn’t biased towards Bush & co. (we get PBS news here, for example) – but I find it hard to believe, based on what I’ve encountered, that it’s the majority. And I’m far from alone in the world (or the US for that matter) in thinking that.

  378. #379 Nick Gotts
    August 30, 2008

    peter,
    The FAZ is not my paper in fact, but it’s is virtually the only one which dares to publish the truth in an article like that, which makes it an indispensable antidote to the near left-wing monopoly on news nowadays.
    This establishes, for anyone who couldn’t already see it, that you’re completely disconnected from reality. Rupert Murdoch, Conrad Black, Silvio Berlusconi – commies all, eh Peter?

    Your idiocy about the relevance of the 17% figure continues. Since no-one ever expected the wind to blow all the time, this would be taken into account when calculating the return on capital costs. That the FAZ writer would rely on this sort of rubbish just shows how stupid and/or dishonest he is. That you take it seriously, shows the same for you. If it can be shown that windpower advocates or builders have systematically overestimated the amount of electricity generated – which may be so – you’ll have a point. Certainly, the nuclear lobby systematically underestimate construction costs and times (see the much vaunted Oikilouto plant for the latest example), and of course the costs of decommissioning, and the wind lobby, though much weaker, may do something similar. What is certain is that Germany is not going to dismantle all their nuclear power stations by the currently legislated date, because there’s no way they could do without them. The Greens pushed the legislation through when in coalition with the SPD, but lacked the muscle to force the coordinated programme of conservation and renewables that would have been necessary to make it practicable.

  379. #380 clinteas
    August 30, 2008

    Well,
    the FAZ has a long reputation for being on the conservative side of the spectrum,and following the general decline of journalistic quality,they have made no exception for sure,and articles like the one mentioned by NG above would have to be part of the general direction that paper is leaning towards.
    Agree with NG on the wind issue,as to nuclear,again,agreed,no way the germans will be able to switch their plants off at the advertised date,and Im actually not sure whether the legislation hasnt been watered down already to just not build any new ones after a certain cutoff date.

    Left-wing monopoly on media? In Germany? And he lost me there,Peter did…..Watered-down pseudo-journalism maybe,but left-wing? Geez,man,what drugs are you on?

    //What effect is she (or Biden, for that matter) going to have on policy? None, unless the president dies, and really the chances of that are not so high as to make it worth voting on. – haelduksf//

    I would disagree with that.
    This is not so much a problem for the dems now,because Biden could run the show.
    As for mum-of-5 from Alaska,as has been pointed out before,not only does she have no foreign policy or major domestic policy experience,her “values” of killing polar bears for pipelines,teaching the “controversy”,anti-abortion stance and proximity to big oil,makes her unsuitable to be president IMO,and Im far away from the US,its you guys that should be concerned about this.
    Especially since McCain had 2 malignant cancers,is showing signs of frontal lobe disinhibition and Alzheimers,and as NG has pointed out above,is just old.

  380. #381 JoJo
    August 30, 2008

    Palin may have been a decent mayor. She might even be an adequate governor. But president of a major country? That’s much more dubious.

    * Having borders with Canada and Russia do not make Alaska a major crossroads of diplomacy, so I have to doubt her foreign affairs capabilities.

    * Not recognizing the difference between evolution and ID tells me that either she’s ignorant about basic science or her religious values are ideologically driven.

    * Using her office to punish her ex-brother-in-law says that she’s both vindictive and corrupt.

    * Her dismissal of abortion and single-sex marriage rights says that she doesn’t care about anyone other than her political buddies.

    * Her dismissal of environmental issues (global warming, ANWR drilling, polar bears, etc.) is not a good sign for a governor of an ecologically fragile state, let alone president of a country.

    McCain has to pander to the right wing of the Republican Party. He picked a good candidate for that pandering.

  381. #382 scooter
    August 30, 2008

    Did anybody else have problems with their hypocrometer when Obama criticized Bush’s ‘war on science’ then went on to pledge the harnessing of ‘Safe Nuclear Energy’ in the same speech?

    Speaking of Obamametric pressure, the hurricane veered toward Houston last night.

    Seems like the idiots at the Fuck us on the Family Foundation got their plot with God screwed up again. A shitload of Republicans are going to get their yaughts blown ashore or trailers overturned when this thing hits East TX on it’s way to Denver
    A WEEK LATE!!!!

  382. #383 echidna
    August 30, 2008

    Wowbagger,
    You’re perceptions accord with mine – and I speak from experience both US and Aus. When I was in the US, it was necessary to also read the BBC and Aussie papers to get a better handle on events in the US – the journalistic bias (and suppression) of events in the US was extraordinary. Bush made a habit of freezing out journalists who didn’t toe the party line,especially after 2001.

    From Australia, we get information from all over the world. It’s what we are used to, and our media actually seems to do a fair job of reporting stuff. For example, the existence of Guantanimo Bay was a story that broke in Australia – the US journos wouldn’t have touched it with a barge pole otherwise. In the US, the world is the US; somehow the rest of the world is seen to be irrelevant. If Randolph thinks that the Australian view of the US is of a similar (dismal) quality to the US view of other countries then his dismissive attitude toward outsiders’ knowledge of the US is perfectly understandable – but quite unwaranted.

    It seems to me that the US as a whole has no idea just how far to the right it is relative to the rest of the world, or even to itself historically. It’s at the point where the joke about reality having a left-wing bias doesn’t seem quite so funny anymore.

  383. #384 clinteas
    August 30, 2008

    @ 383,echidna,

    you have a point,but let me tell you,I moved to Australia about a week after 9/11,back home in Germany there hadnt been anything else on TV at all for a week or so.When I got to Melbourne and watched the news,the lead story was of a post office in Croydon being robbed,I rubbed my eyes,shook my head,and the next day got Foxtel,to be able to watch the BBC and the german news.Its somewhat different with the rise of blogs and Internet news these days,but Australian news is no better that the american news,maybe even worse.

  384. #385 sailor
    August 30, 2008

    “You know, if he had picked Neil deGrasse Tyson as his running mate, I would have seriously considered voting Republican this year. So it it possible.”

    I agree, but if Neil accepted, one of may favorite heroes would have have tarnished enough to need some serious polishing.

  385. #386 el jefe's buddy
    August 30, 2008

    Dickless Cheney.

    We are all so screwed.

  386. #387 young european
    August 30, 2008

    So Palin was the best they could get?

  387. #388 Goldfish
    August 30, 2008

    He could actually have chosen someone much more convincing and giving him a far greater chance in this election, while still going for the XX chromosome angle: Olympia Snowe.
    Of course, maybe he tried and she turned him down…

  388. #389 scooter
    August 30, 2008

    Randy Stimpson
    Even a blind chimp can find a banana once in a while.

    An infinite number of blind chimps would eventually domesticate the banana, then write the Bible to explain it

  389. #390 clinteas
    August 30, 2008

    //then write the Bible to explain it//

    Or Shakespeare’s collected works

  390. #391 johannes
    August 30, 2008

    The FAZ is a fairly mainstream conservative daily. It has a reputation for being a quality paper. It also has a reputation for being dull. Sometimes it publishes a column written by a frat boy with a crush on Carl Schmitt or Ernst Jünger. Sometimes it features something written by Chomsky or Arhundati Roy – it famously was the first mainstream newspaper to publish the latter’s ramblings on 9/11. And sometimes it features articles that bash environmentalists as stupid hippies, in the late seventies/early eighties new wave style of Julie Burchill or Dietrich Diedrichsen. It does so because it wants to appear ‘young’ (by the standards of C. Montgomery Burns)and edgy, and to present itself as pluralist. Just don’t take those occassional radical articles too serious, they do not represent the mainstream line of the FAZ, leave alone the mainstream of the German media.

  391. #392 jdt
    August 30, 2008

    Longtime Lurker said: Uhhh…jcr:
    The woman’s got an 80% approval rating in Alaska.
    Read up some more, her approval rating is now about 67% as more facts emerge about her trooper scandal and her abysmal stint as mayor.

    The collateral damage from her vendetta will be felt around the state for years. Writing Raven at Alaska Real said it best:

    What she has done with State Troopers – i.e. firing an incredibly competent and great commissioner in Walt Monegan – has directly affected Rural Alaska and Alaska Native people. Monegan, an Alaska Native man himself, was the first one in a long time to really begin addressing the incredibly high rates of abuse, violence and other social problems in Rural (Bush) Alaska. He was getting the ball rolling, but after only a year and a half at the job, Palin abruptly fires him because “she’s going in a new direction.” The direction she went was with a new commissioner who had already been reprimanded for sexual harrassment. Not much hope he’d be tough on the sexual abuse, of which Rural Alaska suffers from the highest rates in the nation of.
    As far as Alaska Native issues go, the only substantive things Palin has done for Alaska Native people and Rural issues is fire people that are actually getting the job done.

  392. #393 Nick Gotts
    August 30, 2008

    johannes@391,
    Embarrasingly I seem to have confused FAZ with Bild! Thanks for the correction. However, my error doesn’t change the fact that the article cited by Peter was absurd, dishonest and sinister in its reference to environmentalists as “parasites”. If this is the sort of stuff FAZ is now willing to print, I have only contempt for it.

  393. #394 clinteas
    August 30, 2008

    NG,

    I do not believe you confused FAZ with Bild,whole different league.Bild is a tabloid with no jounalistic integrity whatsoever,while FAZ has some intellectual credibility left,after a fashion.
    And as you say,what Peter cited was ridiculous.

  394. #395 European
    August 30, 2008

    Dear Myers,

    Good luck. I’m european. From Europe is very difficult to understand that you have a creacionist problem. Perhaps you have a increasing religious integrism. Ok, we have problems to understand your problems with guns and other ancient behaviours.

  395. #396 clinteas
    August 30, 2008

    Dear European,

    learn English and come back,lesser minds than yours did it !
    Can I HAz creationist problemz ?

  396. #397 European
    August 30, 2008

    Yes, perhaps my english is awfull, as my german, french, spanish or italian. Do you know other languages or only one?. You have an american absurd centrism that born from a great inculture.

    The science, evolutionism, is the facts expression. Creationism is the interpretation of an ancient book. This is the great difference: reason vs. religious fundamentalism. Here, in French, we haven’t this absurd problems. Only few people believe in creacionism. Evolution is a reality, a fact, no a theory as you know (is a theory in is scientific meaning: a probed hypothesis).

    And perhaps my english is awfull. I’m sorry, but i haven’t time to study better. I prefer to know more languages rather than only one.

  397. #398 Bisch
    August 30, 2008

    By no means am I saying women are stupid, but along the lines of voting for a woman just because she’s a woman, I wouldn’t discount that idea.

    http://althouse.blogspot.com/2008/08/live-blogging-mccain-vp-announcement.html

    A leftist woman at that.

  398. #399 PZ Myers
    August 30, 2008

    Althouse? A leftist? You’ve got to be joking.

  399. #400 Steve_C
    August 30, 2008

    Hehe. She’s a liberal basher.

  400. #401 bnuckols
    August 30, 2008

    As a pro-life right-winger from Texas, I wouldn’t have been happy with my own Senator Hutchison. I’m extremely happy with Governor Palin. Fresh air from Alaska is on its way to DC.

  401. #402 Bisch
    August 30, 2008

    My mistake if she’s not. I don’t follow her, but what I read briefly today made it seem she was a lefty.

  402. #403 David Marjanovi?, OM
    August 30, 2008

    People — all the comments about Palian’s appearance make me cringe. I don’t care what she looks like.

    But McCain apparently cares what she looks like. This does deserve some closer attention.

    Isn’t that ‘World Series’ just a backyard (US) competition?

    Yes, but it’s named after a newspaper called The New York World.

    There are newspapers called “world” elsewhere in the latter, for example Germany’s Die Welt and France’s Le Monde.

    Yes, he did win them

    sez you.

    …but let’s not go there, again.

    No, no, no. Enough of this “it can’t happen here” attitude. Let’s go there till everyone understands it. Want a few links to the papers on exit poll statistics, too? Or don’t you know what an exit poll is?

    Downplayed? Are you serious? It was wall-to-wall for weeks as the MSM was trying to find a way to sink GWB.

    What have you smoked, and can I get it legally in the Netherlands?

    The US media could easily destroy the GOP – all they’d have to do is that which they’re supposed to do: tell people the truth.

    “If the Republicans will stop telling lies about us, we’ll stop telling the truth about them.”
    – Adlai Stevenson

    Embarrasingly I seem to have confused FAZ with Bild!

    ARG! H!

  403. #404 David Marjanovi?, OM
    August 30, 2008

    Européen, pourquoi est-ce que tu écrives les créationnistes en anglais à la façon espagnole, avec un c de plus ?

  404. #405 CS
    August 30, 2008

    “Dear European,
    learn English and come back,lesser minds than yours did it !
    Can I HAz creationist problemz ?”

    Dear clinteas,
    There is no need to be snarky.
    European expressed him/herself well enough, and certainly better than most American using other languages.

  405. #406 Geral
    August 30, 2008

    She’s like the Harriet Miers of this campaign.

  406. #407 Rey Fox
    August 30, 2008

    “Yes, but it’s named after a newspaper called The New York World.”

    Apocryphal.

  407. #408 SC
    August 30, 2008

    Européen, pourquoi est-ce que tu écrives les créationnistes en anglais à la façon espagnole ou catalane, avec un c de plus ?

    :). I was wondering the same thing.

    If I may ask, why is there a space before the question mark? Is that the French way? How did I never learn/notice that?

  408. #409 Feynmaniac
    August 30, 2008

    clinteas #396,
    “Dear European,

    learn English and come back,lesser minds than yours did it !
    Can I HAz creationist problemz ?”

    Learning another language is difficult enough without having jackasses ridiculing your efforts. I applaud European for his/her effort. It is certainly understandble what he/she is trying to say.

  409. #410 Rey Fox
    August 30, 2008

    “Fresh air from Alaska is on its way to DC.”

    Really? Smells like the same old oil-tainted stuffy air to me.

  410. #411 Feynmaniac
    August 30, 2008

    “Européen, pourquoi est-ce que tu écrives les créationnistes en anglais à la façon espagnole, avec un c de plus ?”

    Se está preparando porque en el futuro todos van a hablar español.

  411. #412 David Marjanovi?, OM
    August 30, 2008

    Apocryphal.

    …Oh. Thanks a lot.

    If I may ask, why is there a space before the question mark? Is that the French way? How did I never learn/notice that?

    It is the French way. This kind of thing somehow doesn’t seem to ever be taught anywhere, perhaps because it isn’t visible in handwriting. Conversely, few French people seem to know that only they, Matt Penfold and clinteas make these spaces; I know a PhD student in paleontology, a very English-heavy science, who didn’t.

    Do you know why Napoleon III is numbered III despite being the 2nd reigning monarch of that name? Because a newspaper was ordered to print “VIVE NAPOLEON !!!” as its headline, misinterpreted that, and printed “VIVE NAPOLEON III” when he was coronated.

    ou catalane

    Boooon, ben… ou portugaise, bien sûr…

  412. #413 SC
    August 30, 2008

    It is the French way. This kind of thing somehow doesn’t seem to ever be taught anywhere, perhaps because it isn’t visible in handwriting. Conversely, few French people seem to know that only they, Matt Penfold and clinteas :) make these spaces; I know a PhD student in paleontology, a very English-heavy science, who didn’t.

    Thanks. Interesting. I’m amazed that I hadn’t picked up on it before coming to Pharyngula. Perhaps I had encountered questions so infrequently that each time I had simply assumed it was a typo. Or perhaps I’m not as perspicacious as… Nah. Definitely the former. :)

    Do you know why Napoleon III is numbered III despite being the 2nd reigning monarch of that name? Because a newspaper was ordered to print “VIVE NAPOLEON !!!” as its headline, misinterpreted that, and printed “VIVE NAPOLEON III” when he was coronated.

    I did not know that. Or might that be apocryphal? ;) Speaking of “III,” I remember hearing back when the film Richard III was being released in the US that there was some fear that people would think it was a sequel. I don’t know if this was just a joke or if there was some real confusion. Wouldn’t surprise me.

    … ou portugaise, bien sûr…

    Damn my ignorance! (In my defense, I was going for a language more likely geographically to have influenced a Frenchman’s spelling.)

  413. #414 cyanaea
    August 30, 2008

    Don’t jump to the conclusion that Palin will be anti-science. After all, she did name her son after a branch of mathematics, didn’t she?

  414. #415 Sili
    August 30, 2008

    I think the “Americans are too stupid to know British monarchs” joke is usually told about George III.

    Hence The Madness of King George on the US market.

    I did not know that about French interpunctuation either. I’m annoyed enough with the &lanquo;reversed guillemets&ranquo;.

  415. #416 peter
    August 30, 2008

    Nick Gotts @393

    ..while we’re on honesty, Nick, it ought to be pointed out that you’ve taken the word “parasite” and the watermelon quote from that web-page, which has nothing to do with FAZ (apart from referring to their article), and used them to blacken FAZ. Frustratingly, I can’t get hold of the original article, but I’m convinced it was very “sachlich”, and certainly didn’t use these quotes. I feel I owe it to FAZ to clarify that.

    On the extension of the operating licences of the existing atomic power stations, the legal situation is that they must be switched off in a few years, despite the fact they could produce cheap power at a very low marginal environmental cost for another decade or more. It will be extremely difficult to change this situation, with the current politcal constellation. People like you are making it worse. Congratulations on what you’ve done for global warming!

  416. #417 Sili
    August 30, 2008

    «Bugger!»

  417. #418 Nick Gotts
    August 30, 2008

    the legal situation is that they must be switched off in a few years, despite the fact they could produce cheap power at a very low marginal environmental cost for another decade or more. It will be extremely difficult to change this situation, with the current politcal constellation. People like you are making it worse. – peter

    What do you mean, people like me? I would certainly advocate continuing to produce power from existing nuclear power stations as long as they are safe, for the very reason you give. And since the current German government has an enormous majority in both houses, it could change the law if it wanted. In some cases, I consider there might even be justification for opening new ones – certainly if the only alternative were coal without CCS. What gave you the right to assume otherwise? I admit I have long preferred renewables and energy conservation – and if “people like me” had been listened to 30 years ago and these had been pushed in anything like the way nuclear power was, we wouldn’t be in this mess. It seems quite clear from the second of your links that the FAZ article was written by a global warming denialist, which is a good reason for treating the 17% figure with scepticism – it’s worth asking where the writer got it from – though as I say, it only makes the point you want if wind power builders or advocates systematically overestimated it.

  418. #419 JoJo
    August 30, 2008

    David Marjanovi?, OM #412

    Do you know why Napoleon III is numbered III despite being the 2nd reigning monarch of that name? Because a newspaper was ordered to print “VIVE NAPOLEON !!!” as its headline, misinterpreted that, and printed “VIVE NAPOLEON III” when he was coronated.

    This is apocryphal.

    Napoleon I was, of course, the original Napoleon Bonaparte (1769-1821), general, First Consul of the French Republic, Emperor of the French and King of Italy, Protector of the Confederation of Rhine, and Mediator of the Helvetic Confederation.

    Napoleon II (1811-1832) was the son of Napoleon I and his second wife, Marie Louise of Austria. From birth he was styled the King of Rome, which his father decreed was the courtesy title of the heir apparent. On June 22, 1815, after his defeat at Waterloo, Napoleon abdicated in favor of his infant son. The French legislature recognized him as Emperor from the moment of his father’s abdication, but the entrance of the Allies into Paris on July 7 brought a rapid end to his fictive rule. Napoleon II, aged 4, was residing in Austria with his mother and was probably never aware at the time that he had been proclaimed Emperor.

    Napoleon III (generally known as Louis Napoleon before he became Emperor) was the son of Louis Bonaparte, the brother of Napoleon I, and Hortense de Beauharnais, Napoleon I’s step-daughter. This made him Napoleon I’s nephew and step-nephew and Napoleon II’s first cousin twice over. I won’t go into how Louis Napoleon became first President of France and later Emperor of the Second Empire, but he went by the style Napoleon III in deference to his cousin, Napoleon II.

    BTW, “coronated” is not a word.

  419. #420 JoJo
    August 30, 2008

    Looking for something completely different, I came across this little tidbit at the New Republic website: Did Palin Really Fight The “Bridge To Nowhere”?

    Would you continue state funding for the proposed Knik Arm and Gravina Island bridges?

    Yes. I would like to see Alaska’s infrastructure projects built sooner rather than later. The window is now–while our congressional delegation is in a strong position to assist.

  420. #421 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT
    August 30, 2008

    The Sunday morning shows should be interesting. I wonder how much they’ll delve into this topic.

  421. #422 peter
    August 30, 2008

    Nick Gotts @418
    I get the impression you’re not unfamiliar with the political situation in Germany: do you think the SPD could go along with an extension? My feeling is, with the “Linke” and the greens yapping at their ankles, they are scarcely in a position to start backtracking. There was a tv programme on nuclear power on Tuesday, followed by a debate between Söder of the CSU and Claudia Roth of the Greens. She, of course, spluttered ..Chernobyl, child leukaemia, Abwärme, nuclear waste, etc., etc. Even I can admit it’s not a black-and-white question: but….energy policy is like so much else: what is the lesser evil?

  422. #423 David Marjanovi?, OM
    August 30, 2008

    «Bugger!»

    …And the French make spaces between the guillemets and the quoted material.

    BTW, the film has one of the best scenes ever: Richard III says “a horse, a horse…” while sitting in a jeep that has crashed into a wall… :-D

    On June 22, 1815, after his defeat at Waterloo, Napoleon abdicated in favor of his infant son. The French legislature recognized him as Emperor from the moment of his father’s abdication, but the entrance of the Allies into Paris on July 7 brought a rapid end to his fictive rule.

    Oh. I offer my retraction.

    BTW, “coronated” is not a word.

    Crowned. Just… simply… crowned. I had “coronation” in my mind. Grmpf.

    Did Palin Really Fight The “Bridge To Nowhere”?

    She voted for it before she was against it…

  423. #424 Jason
    August 30, 2008

    @419 JoJo
    Nice job bringing the facts to the surface amidst the sea of bullshit.

  424. #425 SC
    August 30, 2008

    Nice job bringing the facts to the surface amidst the sea of bullshit.

    So a single offhand comment is a sea of bullshit? Do you have anything of substance to contribute?

  425. #426 SC
    August 30, 2008

    I thought not.

  426. #427 Ichthyic
    August 30, 2008

    As it happens, Fox News is the odd man out in the American media industry. The three major networks all have a very solid bias in favor of the democrats

    Projection is a curable disease, JCR.

  427. #428 SC
    August 30, 2008

    As it happens, Fox News is the odd man out in the American media industry.

    By the way, anyone who hasn’t seen it may be interested in “Buying the War”:

    http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/btw/watch.html

  428. #429 Ichthyic
    August 30, 2008

    selling the war…

    “Nazi leader Hermann Goering, interviewed by Gustave Gilbert during the Easter recess of the Nuremberg trials, 1946 April 18, quoted in Gilbert’s book ‘Nuremberg Diary.’

    Goering: Why, of course, the people don’t want war. Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece.

    Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia, nor in England, nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy, or a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship.

    Gilbert: There is one difference. In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.

    Goering: Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.”

  429. #430 SC
    August 30, 2008

    selling the war…

    Oh, don’t make me link to Manufacturing Consent.

    I haven’t performed an official count, but I suspect my anarchists have overtaken your Avalos in the gratuitous-reference race. :)

  430. #431 JoJo
    August 30, 2008

    All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same in any country.

    You’re either with us or with the terrorists.

  431. #432 echidna
    August 30, 2008

    Clinteas@384,
    No argument that Australia is more insular than Europe, but my main point, which I stand by, is that it is nowhere near as insular as the US. And the internet is a wonderful thing.

  432. #433 David Marjanovi?, OM
    August 30, 2008

    Goering: Voice or no voice

    “Vote or no vote” is the translation you’re looking for. In German, there’s no extra word for “vote”, so we say, literally, “voice” instead.

  433. #434 Ichthyic
    August 30, 2008

    In German, there’s no extra word for “vote”, so we say, literally, “voice” instead.

    since we use voice as an analogy for vote often enough, it works either way.

  434. #435 Wowbagger
    August 30, 2008

    I’d always thought war profiteering was a recent thing, but my theatre company staged a production of Oh! What A Lovely War a few years ago – for those who don’t know, it’s a musical comedy satire of the events of WW1 – and there’s a scene in it where the heads of the armaments industry are portrayed as being out together in a shooting party and discussing how much money they’d lose if the war stopped and how they could ensure it continued.

    I was stunned when I read up on it and found that this was (essentially) true. What I found was even more horrifying is that they were selling to each other – both sides’ industrialists were profiting by giving the enemy the means to kill their own countrymen.

    Monstrous isn’t a strong enough word.

  435. #436 Naked Bunny with a Whip
    August 30, 2008

    When was the last time you saw any reference to irrational male voters?

    *blinks* Pretty much every day, including a few on this very thread. Of course, I don’t spend every waking hour looking for reasons to be offended by people who agree with me. Perhaps that’s how you missed it.

  436. #437 clinteas
    August 30, 2008

    My apologies to European.

    *Note to self: shouldnt post while under the influence,shouldnt post while under the influence,shouldnt…*

  437. #438 Monado
    August 30, 2008

    Ichthyic, Mark Twain said the same thing about how the American people were led to countenance their war of conquest against the people of the Phillipines.

  438. #439 Quiet Desperation
    August 31, 2008

    She enjoys killing defenseless animals with guns, from a helicopter if possible.

    Actually, that sort of hot. ;-) I have to wonder what an islamofumblementalist would make of that.

    Show her hunting polar bears with a knife, two pistols and dressed as Lara Croft, and they’ve got my vote. :D

  439. #440 negentropyeater
    August 31, 2008

    hmmm, an ultra conservative Christian fundie, anti-science, anti women’s choice, with ties with big oil, AGW denier, and no idea of the world outside North America (she just got her passport)…

    What’s the difference with G.W.Bush ? Appart from the sex ?

    And McCain’s decision is a sneak preview of what he’ll do if he’s elected : purely driven by illusory short term benefits.

  440. #441 Nick Gotts
    August 31, 2008

    peter@422,
    Well, you’re undoubtedly more familiar with it than me (if I’m right in thinking you’re German or live in Germany – I live in Scotland and am not a German-speaker), but I’d have thought if a danger of power cuts arises, the SPD would shift position quickly. Even if that is not the case they could quite honestly use the argument that since the law was passed, the dangers of global warming have become much clearer, and use the very point you raise about the lesser evil against the Greens and Linke, if the latter make a big issue of it. Incidentally, I took you for a global warming denialist – hence some name-calling, for which I apologise if, as it seems, I was mistaken.

  441. #442 negentropyeater
    August 31, 2008

    This decision helps to demonstrate how simplistic McCain really is : he’s got a problem with women, and with the youth, so he selects a young woman.

    The fact that he is incompetent on all economic issues (which is the #1 issue of this election) didn’t make him choose an experienced economist, for McCain physical appearance is more important than knowledge and reasoning.

  442. #443 European
    August 31, 2008

    Feynmaniac

    Parce que je suis espagnol. Em portugues se me dá pior, só me me estou iniciando. Mein Deutsch ist noch schlechter als mein Englisch. Y, evidentemente, me expreso mejor en castellano.

    But dear Feynmaniac, my awfull englis is not an argument. Indeed, is the straw man (or so called in spanish “hombre de paja”). Attacks on the language rather than arguments. Curiously, when an english-speaking enters forums in spanish never criticizes the way he speaks. The same is true in german forums (my german is painful and they have never said anything).
    It is at least curious, isn’t it?

    By another side, also I am fan of Feynman, on all its “Feynman Lectures on Physics”. In addition, he had a peculiar life (by its autobiography).

    And to finish: the Spanish time has ended, and in brief english will pass. The following one is the Chinese. It has to do so with the economic predominance and and as it goes the things, he is the following one and in not many years.

  443. #444 SC
    August 31, 2008

    European,

    Did you mean to address your comment to clinteas? (He apologized @ #437, by the way.)

    Curiously, when an english-speaking enters forums in spanish never criticizes the way he speaks.

    Well, plenty of Spaniards laughed at my spoken Spanish. It made me very self-conscious, which made it more difficult to learn the language. Despite the stereotype, I never had that experience in France.

  444. #445 peter
    August 31, 2008

    Nick Gotts @441
    I’m an expat in Germany.
    ..and no, I’m not a denialist, but probably just as bad in your view, I subscribe to the line set out in an article I saw in (er, my mother’s) Daily Mail (I can see your lips curling) in July :

    http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1038141/Greenwash-Why-need-honesty-carbon-targets-green-propaganda.html

    I’ve seen it argued as well that if the west adopted the most extreme measures to reduce their CO2 output, the savings would easily be more than eaten up by increases in population and standard of living in the rest of the world.
    In fact, I’d almost go as far to say that the best we can do is to invest in palliative measures.
    So out with your names again!

  445. #446 European
    August 31, 2008

    Dear SC,

    Thank you for your “spaniard”. I could some things, but I prefer that all people see your behavior.

    On the other hand,iIn Spain is typical to laught of everything but without bad intentions. Another thing is that they use it against you or your arguments. All countries have its one idiosyncrasy.

    Thanks a lot.

  446. #447 SC
    August 31, 2008

    Thank you for your “spaniard”. I could some things, but I prefer that all people see your behavior.

    What are you talking about? “Spaniard” is the English term for a native or inhabitant of Spain, where I lived for some time.

    On the other hand,iIn Spain is typical to laught of everything but without bad intentions.

    Yeah, right. Sell it somewhere else.

    And again, clinteas already apologized for his remark.

  447. #448 sex_target
    August 31, 2008

    Can someone explain to me or link me to an explanation about why Obama is such a bad candidate for a scientifically minded rational thinking person? I’ve looked at his policies and voting record and I see the most liberal person we’ve had in a while, miles away from McCain. This is an honest question. I’ve seen the stuff PZ has posted on his pandering to the religions sect, but beyond that what’s the story?

  448. #449 SC
    August 31, 2008
  449. #450 sex_target
    August 31, 2008

    Thanks SC. I’m checking it out now.

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