…and this is a 
Compare and Contrast
Category: Chatter
Posted on: August 21, 2008 11:39 AM, by PZ Myers
I can hardly see how anyone ought to wish Christianity to be true; for if so, the plain language of the text seems to show that the men who do not believe, and this would include my Father, Brother, and almost all my best friends, will be everlastingly punished. And this is a damnable doctrine.
Charles Darwin
The counter to the side is ticking off the number of people who have died since you opened this webpage. The vast majority of those people are entering Hell. Christ commanded his followers to share the Gospel with those who are perishing... who have you shared with today?
The Surretts, an insufferable family of missionaries in Peru
They both seem to be saying the same thing. The difference: Darwin deplores the idea of damnation, the Surretts have made it the reason for their existence. I know which side I favor.
Comments
Posted by: Mustafa Mond, FCD | August 21, 2008 11:43 AM
Opening this weekend at select theatres: Cthulhu
You'll be damned if you don't see it.
Posted by: MarkW | August 21, 2008 11:43 AM
Gotta love that krazy kristian kompassion.
Posted by: Rik. | August 21, 2008 11:43 AM
Nothing new, is it? Christians want to conquer the world by terrifying it with their made-up tales of eternal damnation for the unbelievers.
Doesn't everybody know that by now?
Posted by: Glen Davidson | August 21, 2008 11:45 AM
Piss poor job that god is doing, with the vast majority of "his children" going to hell. Unless, of course, that's what he wants.
I would add one other thing, though. One might not wish evolution to be true, either. It just is. Xianity just isn't (and was designed to make people obey with threats of hell).
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: June | August 21, 2008 11:46 AM
If Christ's followers go to Hell if they don't spread the gospel, that's one more reason NOT to follow Christ!
Posted by: harv | August 21, 2008 11:47 AM
My understanding of the Christian doctine is that those who never had the opportunity to know Jesus will get a free pass. Seems like the most effective strategy would be to remain silent early and often.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | August 21, 2008 11:48 AM
It is the kids I feel sorry for.
Spending time living in Peru should be wonderful experience for them. Learning another language, enjoying another culture, learning the history of the region.
All those would be brilliant things for kids. I somehow think their parents will seek to avoid exposing them to all those. Home school I bet as well.
Posted by: Kampar | August 21, 2008 11:49 AM
I'm liking the way the counter is counting up in tenths of a person. Maybe they know something the rest of us don't.
And of course on the other side of the page ... the ever present call to send in your money.
Posted by: Barklikeadog | August 21, 2008 11:51 AM
I fail to understand how this kind of approach could possibly convince thinking people. The inannity is just too stoopid.
You all have to believe I'm the son of god or else and by the way if you keep it to yourself you're screwed too. So while you're telling everyone what a wonderful guy I am send me all your cash too so my wonderful life can be even better. You don't need the money. Your going to hell anyway right?
Posted by: Alex | August 21, 2008 11:55 AM
I used to have issue that someone like Hitler suffering for eternity would not be justified. That is, until, one really conceives of the scope of eternity. It's truly beyond comprehension. The lesson I took away from that realization is that action must be taken as soon as possible to stop those committing brutal behaviors....stop at any cost. Simply wishing someone's eternal suffering after they have vomited their brutality on others and after they die is simply abdicating responsibility. Of course this is not always possible. So the best actions humanity can take is to prevent such brutality from forming in the first place. The progress of learning is key here.
Posted by: Qwerty | August 21, 2008 11:56 AM
When consumer reporters are on TV, they always say something like, "If it sounds too good to be true, don't buy it."
That's what heaven and eternal life sounds like to me. Too good to be true.
As for eternal damnation, there is nothing like a little fear to get the religious minions to obey and/or behave.
Posted by: Jason Failes | August 21, 2008 11:57 AM
If there was a just God running the universe, the only people in hell would be those who wished to see other people in hell.
There would, however, be an aptitude test to get into the really good parts of heaven.
Posted by: SC | August 21, 2008 11:57 AM
From "Jeff's Testimony" on their site:
Quite the Christian prodigy, that Jeff!
Posted by: MarcusA | August 21, 2008 12:00 PM
It would be a shame if something in your store broke or one of your employees got hurt. Perhaps if you paid homage to my cause and gave me money, your future would be secure.
What's the difference between extortionists and missionaries? Not much.
Posted by: Bob Strijker | August 21, 2008 12:01 PM
I don't think it's fair to include the psycho children in the term "insufferable family".
Posted by: Brownian, OM | August 21, 2008 12:01 PM
Who is this 'God' that everyone is speaking of, and why does his love so resemble its opposite?
Posted by: Alex | August 21, 2008 12:02 PM
"That's what heaven and eternal life sounds like to me. Too good to be true."
I hate to leave an empty reference Qwerty, but Thunderf00t (on UTube) made a great video, part of which really illustrated the horrors of eternal life - from a human perspective in paradise. If you can Google it, I recommend it. If you've never watched thunderF00t, I highly recommend it. After watching the video, I was convinced that the human knee-jerk desire for eternal life is deeply flawed.
Posted by: Jamie | August 21, 2008 12:04 PM
From Debbie's testimoney:
"After my older brother was saved, I also prayed to accept Jesus as my Savior. However, I was very young at the time and only remember being told that this is what I had done. When I was seven years old, I heard a message on having evidence of salvation. I realized there was no evidence, or memory, of my salvation, and I then accepted Christ as my personal Savior."
If I can highlight the very last sentence, have I missed something, or does that make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER?
Posted by: SC | August 21, 2008 12:04 PM
Are you feeling any better today? Did you see a doc?
Posted by: rs | August 21, 2008 12:05 PM
Actually that same text with the same counter is also on ray comfort's blog. seems to be some boilerplate evangelism by fear.
Posted by: Dr. T | August 21, 2008 12:06 PM
This reminds me of a bible verse, Psalms 14:1, which states:
The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, their deeds are vile; there is no one who does good.
How arrogant a claim. Atheists are not only "fools", but NONE of them do any good either? Their deeds are vile and corrupt? To me, the only true "fools" in this world are the ones who read this kind of stuff and actually "believe" in it.
Posted by: Carlie | August 21, 2008 12:06 PM
My understanding of the Christian doctine is that those who never had the opportunity to know Jesus will get a free pass.
Depends on the brand of Christianity. In a lot of them, no. Then they try to really guilt you into "witnessing" by basically saying all of those souls are on your head if you don't tell them about God.
Posted by: a lurker | August 21, 2008 12:07 PM
The other day a young gentleman, a Presbyterian who had just been converted, came to me and he gave me a tract, and he told me he was perfectly happy. Said I, "Do you think a great many people are going to hell?" "Oh, yes." "And you are perfectly happy?" Well, he did not know as he was, quite. "Would not you he happier if they were all going to heaven?" "Oh, yes." "Well, then, you are not perfectly happy?" No, he did not think he was. "When you get to heaven, then you will be perfectly happy?" "Oh, yes." "Now, when we are only going to hell, you are not quite happy; but when we are in hell, and you in heaven, then you will be perfectly happy? You will not be as decent when you get to he an angel as you are now, will you?"
"Well," he said, "that was not exactly it." Said I, "Suppose your mother were in hell, would you be happy in heaven then?" "Well," he says, "I suppose God would know the best place for mother." And I thought to myself, then, if I was a woman, I would like to have five or six boys like that.
It will not do. Heaven is where those are we love, and those who love us. And I wish to go to no world unless I can be accompanied by those who love me here. Talk about the consolations of this infamous doctrine. The consolations of a doctrine that makes a father say, "I can be happy with my daughter in hell;" that makes a mother say, "I can be happy with my generous, brave boy in hell;" that makes a boy say, "I can enjoy the glory of heaven with the woman who bore me, the woman who would have died for me, in eternal agony." And they call that tidings of great joy.
No church has done more to fill the world with gloom than the Presbyterian. Its creed is frightful, hideous, and hellish. The Presbyterian god is the monster of monsters. He is an eternal executioner, jailer and turnkey. He will enjoy forever the shrieks of the lost, -- the wails of the damned. Hell is the festival of the Presbyterian god.
-- How to be Saved by Robert G. Ingersoll
(Text is in the public domain as it was written in the 19th Century.)
Posted by: Alex | August 21, 2008 12:07 PM
"...does that make ABSOLUTELY NO SENSE WHATSOEVER?"
Blind belief is extolled. Skepticism is reviled and considered evil. The reasoning is completely upside down. It makes sense though. It's the only way something so irrational can be made to seem like it's rational.
Posted by: Sleeping at the Console | August 21, 2008 12:08 PM
Even with great evidence for Biblegod, I would find it incredibly difficult to worship him. After all, he does not care to give us any evidence, rather he seems to hide. Then he punish everyone who does not believe for no reason. What a guy!
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | August 21, 2008 12:08 PM
Hah! That's nothing! At the age of 5, my daughter recognized that if she put a tooth under her pillow, a magical fairy would whisk it away while she slept and leave money in its place, and recognized that if she was good a jolly fat man in a red suit would sneak into the house and leave her presents every 25th of December. Of course, no-one ever criticizes her now for growing out of those silly beliefs.
Posted by: Lilly de Lure | August 21, 2008 12:10 PM
Jamie said:
Someone clearly has missed something big (coherent thought for example) - but I don't think it's us!
Posted by: Dr. T | August 21, 2008 12:11 PM
@ #18
I'm afraid that's what they call "faith"
Posted by: kermit | August 21, 2008 12:11 PM
As a kid, raised Southern Baptist, it was clear to me that most folks are the same religion as their families. So the Baptists from Mobile, Alabama were going to Heaven, but the Muslims from Tunisia were going to Hell, even they they must have made the same "decisions" for the same reasons. God seemed infinitely unfair to me. The adults in my church seemed to delight in the material rewards they were piling up in Heaven, and gloating about watching the sinners suffer in Hell. Rather like the same movie over and over, only they didn't expect to ever get tired of it. The preacher's son-in-law bragged about the mansion he was going to get. I wondered why it mattered. Were we going to spend eternity comparing our wealth? Did it get cold at night in Heaven - why couldn't I just sleep under the bushes?
This was about the time I realized we were being punished for the sins of Adam and Eve, committed before they knew the difference between right and wrong.
Posted by: Alex | August 21, 2008 12:11 PM
"Heaven is where those are we love, and those who love us."
...along with the stripper factory and beer volcano. Right? Right?
Posted by: Dunc | August 21, 2008 12:13 PM
Oh, I dunno... As a notorious church sign once put it: "Think life is hell? Try an eternity with Jesus!"
It sounds good, until you realise that eternity is not only long enough to do everything you've ever imagined (up to and including individually counting every single atom in the universe) but that even after doing all that, you've still got eternity left. What are you going to do for eternity? Do you have any idea how bored it's possible to get in that much time? Life is fun because there's more to do than you can possibly fit into the time available. If you have time to do everything, several times over, without making so much as a dent in the time you've got, what's the point?
Eternal life is the second-worst thing I can conceive of to inflict on someone. Eternal suffering is obviously the worst - but I'm not entirely convinced that there's really that much of a difference between the two.
Then of course there's the objection that life requires change, and that change requires the possibility of change for the worse, so eternal bliss is incompatible with life. It's only the possibility of unhappiness that makes happiness possible.
Posted by: debaser | August 21, 2008 12:13 PM
Ahh yes the missionary urge. This is the same kind of thinking that led pious missionaries to baptize the native's children before dashing their brains out against a tree. Soul saved, sealed and delivered up to god.
As Bertrand Russel pointed out, if you were to closely watch a pile of ants coming and going from an anthill, and pick out the ones you don't like and toss them into a fire for their behavior, it really is a compliment to the ants that you care about the machinations of their everyday lives.
The believer thinks the universe was created for them, that the creator cares about them, what they think, their ultimate fate, will intervene in the workings of creation to help them out, and will place reward their good behavior with an eternal vaction of happiness.
As one who doesn't believe, the universe is a morally neutral place, not created by anything, for anything, indifferent to the small span of time that I am lucky to be alive.
I think many people's refusal to accept the cold facts of the universe as we now know it comes from refusing to squarely face the truth about humans and our mortality.
I think it is part of the reason why as Hitchens said, if people beleived as they say, why DOESNT it make them happy, unless everyone else believes it too?
Posted by: Lilly de Lure | August 21, 2008 12:13 PM
Great to see you posting again BTW PZ - I hope you're doing better against the lurgy today!
Posted by: MikeM | August 21, 2008 12:13 PM
Well, PZ, it's because of one simple thing: It's just not logical.
Okay, so God, who is eternal, sat there for an eternity (literally) so He could create everything in six days, just 6,000 years ago, so He could test us to see if we're worthy to sit with him, bored, for an eternity, in a place that sounds a lot like Costa Rica (but without hurricanes). (Not slamming Costa Rica, by the way; I really want to go there.)
He just had to test us. If we failed, and He knew the majority of us would, we'd end up burning in Hell for an eternity.
Would any loving parent test his/her child that way? "Here's some gasoline and a lighter; now don't use them, or you'll burn to death." He knew that the majority would take lighter to gasoline. He's all-wise, all-loving, all-knowing; He knows what has happened, what is happening, and what will happen. He set us up.
Would you, as a living parent, hand your child a gallon of gasoline and a lighter, and then tell your child to not play with the lighter? I doubt it.
That's what the wisest, most eternal, most knowing Being in the Universe, has done: Committed an act with zero logic.
Good job, God. Congratulations, you've done something everyone older than 8 knows you don't do. Which is why religion is for 8 year olds.
Frackin' cracker.
God, the next time you decide to create a universe, just put everyone in Heaven. Problem solved. There'd be zero evil in the world.
Posted by: CV | August 21, 2008 12:13 PM
I was in Peru recently and entered a church with our Peruvian tour guide. He pointed out that many of the paintings in the church were made by Peruvians who had not converted to christianity...sort of slave labor. In their contempt the artists looked for ways to sabotage the paintings. The best example, in the Last Supper, the artist had placed a Guinea Pig on Jesus' plate, which is a traditional meal in Peru. Just a little image for the Pharyngulites, Jesus eating a guinea pig. It was hilarious.
Posted by: Kobra | August 21, 2008 12:16 PM
Bah! If God is all-powerful, why does he need you kooks to spread his message?
Posted by: Alex | August 21, 2008 12:18 PM
"...but that even after doing all that, you've still got eternity left."
Yes Dunc, if eternity is static. But, was scuba diving an option for an activity 200 years ago? Sky diving? How about a vacation on the moon. The point is, the more we learn, the more is revealed that is possible to do. But that's not "heaven", that's life today, that's reality. It appears that our options for activity expand with our understanding of the universe.
Posted by: SiMPel MYnd | August 21, 2008 12:23 PM
It's stuff like this that always makes me cringe when Xtians say that they can claim some sort of moral superiority to atheists because they follow their fairy tale book. Sending someone to hell for eternity because they spent a handful of pitiful years on this hunk of rock in space not genuflecting every 10 minutes to the great and powerful Oz seems a little excessive, don't you think?
Posted by: Qwerty | August 21, 2008 12:24 PM
I watched the video at the Surrett's website. According to their counter: 1,080 people died while watching it. I don't know what a vast majority actually is (70%? 80%? 95%?) but the Surretts think at least 541 went to hell. Nothing like the compassion and loving of a skyfairy!
That said, his mission is to help Christian schools set up curriculum.
His sponsor, Open Door Baptist Missions, has this message on their website:
"We believe in the Holy Scriptures, accepting fully the writing of the Old and New Testaments as the very Word of God, verbally inspired in all parts in its original autographs, our infallible and authoritative rule of faith and practice."
I'll bet there will be no field trips to the Galapagos Islands to study evolution!
Posted by: Lilly de Lure | August 21, 2008 12:24 PM
Kobra said:
More to the point if he's omniscient then why does he pick such laughable clowns as his PR people and then provide them with the most wildly implausible and/or viciously cruel arguments?
Posted by: a lurker | August 21, 2008 12:35 PM
"My understanding of the Christian doctine is that those who never had the opportunity to know Jesus will get a free pass. Seems like the most effective strategy would be to remain silent early and often."
This point is actually brought up by fundamentalist preachers. When I was a kid, the preacher of the church I was at pointed out that not knowing was in no way a way out of Hell. He pointed out that if it was, the best thing to do would be to destroy all the Bibles and not tell anyone. He then ended by pointing out that no one listening to to him could claim an ignorance out even if it did exist.
Posted by: BobC | August 21, 2008 12:40 PM
Anyone who believes in heaven is an idiot. Anyone who believes in hell is an asshole.
Posted by: Doubting Foo | August 21, 2008 12:42 PM
And somehow they can go to Heaven and be happy forever knowing some of their loved ones may be suffering in Hell:
How could I be happy in Heaven?
Posted by: Ron Sullivan | August 21, 2008 12:45 PM
CV in #35:
But (blinkblink) is guinea pig kosher? I kinda don't think so but somebody here must know.
Maybe I'll just go off and google it. (squeak)
Posted by: Brownian, OM | August 21, 2008 12:53 PM
The response I give to those who think atheists cannot be moral or ethical because they don't believe they're accountable to God goes something like, "So, when you tell your kids you love them and tuck them in at night, do you also tell them you're only doing so because you're afraid of Hell?"
Of course, the question becomes moot a few minutes later when, as an atheist, I eat their children.
Posted by: Lilly de Lure | August 21, 2008 12:55 PM
Ron Sullivan said:
Worrying I think I do. Guinea pigs fall into the same category as rabbits in that they do not have cloven hooves but do chew cud (well not exactly cud but night faeces). However if eating night faeces does the bunny in as a food item logically it should do the same for guinea pigs too since the two species are doing exactly the same thing biologically speaking.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guinea_pig#Diet
Posted by: B | August 21, 2008 12:55 PM
harv @ #6
While in college, I had a fairly good friend that was an evangelical. According to him, all people (including all Native Americans before being exposed to xian ideas) were going straight to hell because they obviously did not have the chance to accept Jesus Christ as their savior. This voluntary acceptance of salvation was a central tenet in his xian beliefs.
My evangelical ex-wife claimed that those who didn't have the opportunity to accept Jesus Christ during their life (because they were alive before JC was alive or they lived in North America before the good news arrived) WOULD have the opportunity once they were dead. I envisioned a St Peter joke with these folks getting to choose--heaven or hell. (Not to mention the fact that this situation actually gives them an ADVANTAGE. It just isn't fair that I have to choose now with no evidence whatsoever while these wise guys actually stand at the gates of heaven before making up their mind! What a deal!)
Anyway, it's possible that these were just-so stories to fill in the gaps of their personal theological knowledge or a way to assuage their guilt over an obviously unfair situation. But, I was left wondering why a "perfect" deity would design such a shoddy salvation plan. WTF? A 5yo could have done a better job.
Posted by: Paper Hand | August 21, 2008 12:56 PM
But (blinkblink) is guinea pig kosher?
I don't believe so. Leviticus says:
Guinea pigs neither chew cud nor have a split hoof, so, no, I don't believe they would be kosher.
Posted by: Dale Husband | August 21, 2008 12:57 PM
How hard would it be to organize some anti-missionary efforts to directly counter the kooks out there? To teach freethought instead of blind adherence to religious dogma?
Posted by: Kaddath | August 21, 2008 12:58 PM
It amuses me how smug Christians are when they feel the have the right to go to another country to push their Gerin Oil (to quote Dawkins) just because they *think* the Gerin Oil in those regions is the wrong/bad kind.
I remember when I met a young couple that were so proud because they had just return from Bible College (those Xians just love to coin oxymorons!) and were waiting to be sent to the Philippines as missionaries. I just had to bite my tongue, but I guess that if prayer is "how to do nothing and still think you're helping", Bible College might as well be defined as "how to go to school and pretend you actually deserve a PhD in lie peddling".
Posted by: Matt Penfold | August 21, 2008 12:58 PM
I do know that the large guinea pigs called capybara are considered fish by the Catholic Church.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | August 21, 2008 1:02 PM
You're going to hell, stamp-stamp, no erasies!
Posted by: Greg Peterson | August 21, 2008 1:04 PM
It doesn't matter how shiny your edifice might otherwise be; if it has a dungeon, it is medieval.
Posted by: Beadknitter | August 21, 2008 1:10 PM
Ewwww....! (shudders) That is one creepy web site.
Posted by: Mold | August 21, 2008 1:10 PM
Many years ago I was part of the Fundies. We broke when I could no longer deny the abject ignorance.
Missionaries have been spies (China, Russia, Africa, etc) and losers that have figured out that they can live like princes in another country. When the dollar was solid, a missionary would ask for what seemed a pittance. Sure, they only made 32 or 45k. In the US, that is not a bad wage. Not great, but not bad. In a foreign land, this amount of currency gives them nannies, groundskeepers, drivers, cooks, maids, servants....
An Indian engineer with very impressive credentials once compared vacation costs between a week in NYC and a month in India using the same budget. India provided a much higher degree of personal service and a vastly greater amount of leisure.
So, bilk the US local yokels of cash that makes them feel like they are getting off cheap and then live in a country that allows you middle-class status on working-class wages.
Posted by: Kobra | August 21, 2008 1:12 PM
#40: Oh, that's an easy one!
I have never made but one prayer to God, a very short one: "O Lord make my enemies ridiculous." And God granted it. - Voltaire
Makes sense now, doesn't it?
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | August 21, 2008 1:13 PM
The doctrine of collective guilt is immoral. The notion of punishing a child for the transgressions of a parent is immoral. The notion of punishing an individual for a situation that was outside of his control is immoral.
It's amazing that people would worship such an immoral beast as the christian 'god' and even more amazing that they would consider it the fount of moral guidance. No wonder christians are so morally crippled, if they listen to that nonsense and take it seriously.
Posted by: Ticktockman | August 21, 2008 1:17 PM
Dr. T @21
The correct answer to that quote is, of course, "The wise man says it out loud." ;)
-TTm
Posted by: Steve_C | August 21, 2008 1:19 PM
I was in central Illinois for 4 days for work. I'm cityfolk and could handle most of it... what made me batshit insane though, was that of the 8 FM stations I could get, it seemed like half were Jesus radio, and what they were saying was just mind numbingly stupid... they were even bashing buddha.
Uhg.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | August 21, 2008 1:23 PM
I met a few of those when I was living in Uganda. You could sure tell they were pissed off at seeing other whites there--it ruined the illusion that they were lone saviours of the heathen savages.
I'm not sure they were much worse than the businessmen and ex-pats who ate and slept at the Sheraton but drank in local bars when they wanted a 16-year-old girlfriend they could play Sugar Daddy to, but it was a close contest.
Posted by: thepetey | August 21, 2008 1:32 PM
#6 harv
My understanding of the Christian doctine is that those who never had the opportunity to know Jesus will get a free pass. Seems like the most effective strategy would be to remain silent early and often.
I have know a few evangelizers who think that the more "souls they save" the more they will be rewarded in heaven. They seriously thought their mansion in the sky would be bigger if the converted more people.
Xianity is a death cult. Its just a death cult that forbids suicide - alas.
Posted by: Darwin's Dagger | August 21, 2008 1:34 PM
Darwin's Dagger: Who's More Evil?
Posted by: thepetey | August 21, 2008 1:36 PM
#10 Alex
I used to have issue that someone like Hitler suffering for eternity would not be justified. That is, until, one really conceives of the scope of eternity. It's truly beyond comprehension. The lesson I took away from that realization is that action must be taken as soon as possible to stop those committing brutal behaviors....stop at any cost. Simply wishing someone's eternal suffering after they have vomited their brutality on others and after they die is simply abdicating responsibility. Of course this is not always possible. So the best actions humanity can take is to prevent such brutality from forming in the first place. The progress of learning is key here.
except that there is no hell or eternal damnation
Posted by: Qwerty | August 21, 2008 1:40 PM
Alex # 17: Two of my favorite depictions of hell are the Daffy Duck cartoon "Draftee Daffy" and a The Far Side cartoon.
In "Draftee Daffy" Daffy's SUPER patriotic until "the little man from the draft board" shows up. He tries to evade him and at the end, Daffy climbs aboard a rocket which then propels him into what looks like hell.
For more on "Draftee Daffy": http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Draftee_Daffy
(Also of interesting note: This was a WWII cartoon. One doubts that this could have been made during the Vietnam war with all the draft protests.)
The Far Side cartoon shows a devil in the foreground of a cave with flames all around it while behind him two men are standing at a coffee urn. One says to the other "They thought of everything, even the coffee is cold."
Posted by: Virginia | August 21, 2008 1:41 PM
Why do Christian missionary work in Peru, where most people are Christian already?
(Oh, wait, those are Catholics. They don't count for this crowd.)
In any case, Chuck Darwin sure was right about hell, truly the most pernicious doctine to arise from Christianity. It's what made me leave the Church, a blessing in retrosepct. How could anyone take seriously the idea of a God who would punish with infinite torture the most trivial offenses (missing Mass on Sunday, eating meat on Friday, masturbating, fantasizing about the girl next door).
Posted by: SteveN | August 21, 2008 1:41 PM
Harv wrote in post #6:
"My understanding of the Christian doctine is that those who never had the opportunity to know Jesus will get a free pass. Seems like the most effective strategy would be to remain silent early and often."
This reminds me of a supposedly true story I heard a few years back of a conversation between a missionary and one of his victims that went something like this:
Missionary: "If you do not accept Christ, you will burn forever in in the Fires of Hell"
Victim: "Do people who have never heard of Christ go to hell?"
Missionary: "Of course not. That would be unjust!"
Victim: "Then why did you tell me about him?"
Posted by: anthropicOne | August 21, 2008 1:44 PM
Oh, I finally get it!
The soul has its own eyes and a complete nervous system. You have to have a nervous system to feel those flames lapping up your ass, right? You have to have full cognitive resources to get the full joy of heaven, right?
So if there's joy, there have to be endorphins. Yes!!! 72 virgins!!! Are there afterlife STDs?
Hmmm. I wonder how the spiritual real estate market is doing. Maybe I can find a nice 3 bedroom with a lava view....
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | August 21, 2008 1:47 PM
I can't comprehend eternity. But I can comprehend the calculated age of the universe, and I can comprehend the average human life span, and I can comprehend the Olympics (well, except for synchronized swimming, but thats for another post).
So, let's just say that eternity is at least as long as the age of the universe. That means that the ratio of an average human's lifespan to eternity is approximtely the same as as the length of time an Olympic swimmer takes to compete in a 100 meter race, about a minute, as compared to that swimmers expected lifespan.
Would any rational being attempt to evaluate or judge that swimmer based upon one single 60 second race, and use that as a determination for the other 99.99995% of their existance?
Does this make any sense to anyone, or am I just being euphoric about May-Traynor & Walsh winning the gold again?
Posted by: Tom L | August 21, 2008 1:48 PM
My favorite compare-and-contrast:
"The legitimate powers of government extend to such acts as are injurious to others. But it does me no injury for my neighbour to say there are twenty gods, or no god. It neither picks my pocket nor breaks my leg." -- Thomas Jefferson, 1782
versus:
"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." -- George Herbert Walker Bush, 1987
Which of these two men would YOU trust with the duty to preserve freedom of conscience?
Posted by: Capital Dan | August 21, 2008 1:50 PM
Fuck 'em. I would rather spend an eternity in hell suffering along side my friends who, throughout my life, have shown me that they would do anything to help alleviate my suffering as I would theirs, than spend an eternity in heaven with some deplorable, god-soaked, self-righteous potatohead.
Posted by: oldtree | August 21, 2008 1:57 PM
aa, missionaries. Remember what WC Fields said about missionaries and seasoning. I particularly like the part about the quotes they attribute to someone that was dead at least a hundred years before anyone started taking notes.
Posted by: fireant451 | August 21, 2008 2:01 PM
That counter is ticking me off.
Posted by: MS | August 21, 2008 2:01 PM
Ah, so many things to comment on. It's always been clear to me that many Christians actually relish the thought of unbelievers suffering through all eternity. They have a barely disguised glee when they talk or write about it (look up how many folks lovingly described Stephen J. Gould's arrival in Hell when he died, for example. I still remember one titled "Stephen J. Gould is a creationist now.").
My wife's sister and her husband are missionaries. Their kids were mostly brought up abroad. Comment no. 60, and the comment it references, hit the nail on the head. While I don't doubt my sister- and brother-in-law's sincerity, they are also materially better off in most ways than they were in the US. They have a nicer house, servants to cook, clean house and take care of the garden, paid transportation back and forth to the US every so often and other perks. Didn't someone say of the missionaries to Hawaii that they came to do good and stayed to do well? In fairness I should also that everyone in the family has had malaria and while they are comfortable physically, they don't make a lot of money and when they are back in the States on furlough money is very tight.
To continue my scattershot post: there is absolutely no way to reconcile the notion of eternal damnation with any sense of justice or fairness. Finite sins, even if you buy into the concept of sin, can't justify infinite punishment. And no matter what you think happens to people who never heard the Gospel, there is grotesque injustice to somebody. If the god they worship exists, he's infinitely more evil than all the Hitlers, Stalins, Maos, Pol Pots, Neros, Caligulas and other despots rolled up into one.
And did everybody notice that that so far they only have about 21% of the monthly support they need? (My in-laws took much longer than they expected on their last furlough to raise their support--I refrained from commenting. They also know not to ask us for money.) How important can their mission be to God if he doesn't "convict" people to send them money? Or just poof it into their bank account? Or that matter, just make some sort of unequivocal appearance in the world to everybody, all at once, so he doesn't need people to go aboad and convince them of His existence? If He really cared about people believing in Him, wouldn't that be the simplest solution? Supposedly we're talking about someone who knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows absolutely exactly what it would take to convince anyone and everyone of precisely what he wants them to believe. No need for Hell at all. If Hell exists, it exists because it pleases God for it to exist. Any other explanation is just rationalization.
I'll stop rambling now; this article just pressed SO many of my buttons.
Posted by: thepetey | August 21, 2008 2:02 PM
#69 Tom L
Thomas Jefferson makes me moist.
Posted by: thepetey | August 21, 2008 2:09 PM
#73 MS
If He really cared about people believing in Him, wouldn't that be the simplest solution? Supposedly we're talking about someone who knows everything and can do anything. That means he knows absolutely exactly what it would take to convince anyone and everyone of precisely what he wants them to believe. No need for Hell at all. If Hell exists, it exists because it pleases God for it to exist. Any other explanation is just rationalization.
Wouldn't be easier than to just "create" us all in the womb with an innate knowledge of his existance and the how's and where's of his worship as opposed to letting us muck about and kill each other over puddling differences like whether the pope or the king of england runs the church?
Hell, if a kangaroo can be born with the innate knowledge to drawl to the poach and sea turtles to the sea - if there were a god he could do it.
Posted by: spencer | August 21, 2008 2:09 PM
missing Mass on Sunday, eating meat on Friday, masturbating, fantasizing about the girl next door
Sounds like how I spent many a weekend during junior high.
Posted by: thepetey | August 21, 2008 2:10 PM
Damned typos
Posted by: ice9 | August 21, 2008 2:11 PM
My favorite snip from that treacly tar-pit website:
We believe in the unrevealed but always imminent pretribulational rapture of all believers.
The rapture...my favorite Christian doctrine (never mind that it isn't even biblical; it's a construct of the Revelations morons.) What entertainment: a couple of million nude Jesus Freaks flying up in the air! What a party we'd have!
ice
Posted by: Qwerty | August 21, 2008 2:12 PM
This just in: Hallmark to sell same-sex wedding/commitment cards to go with the coming out cards introduced last year. Who wants to bet the American Family Association (aka American Patrichal Association) will start another boycott? Any takers?
Now, Xians will not be able to shop at Hallmark or watch any Hallmark productions or sponsored shows or they'l be taking that dive into the eternal lake of fire!
Posted by: RobS | August 21, 2008 2:12 PM
A personal view...
To whom is it not obvious that the 'God' of the civilized was 'created' by the 'elite' of the civilized -- in the 'image of man' (what more obvious model?) -- well before this 'God', so promulgated by civilized religion, is supposed to have 'created' (civilized) man 'in His own image'?
Why would the 'elite' of civilization go to the bother of 'creating' (i.e., 'inventing') such a figment?
Is not the answer as obvious?
[Hint: The answer definitely has nothing to do with "saving 'souls' ". The 'everlasting soul' is another invention of civilized religion, in that it is part of the large body of 'supporting paraphernalia' of civilized religion that includes 'Heaven', 'Hell' 'Purgatory', 'Limbo', and perhaps other invented 'places', the (religious) definitions of 'Right' and 'Good' and their complements 'Wrong', 'Bad' and 'Evil', and lots more - including 'sin', 'original sin', 'morals' and later, the 'Doctrine of Confession' [DoC]. The DoC was implemented after it was realized that very few people could live out their lives exactly the way the 'elite' of civilization wanted them to live - i.e., as spelled out in 'morals'. Before the advent of the 'Doctrine of Confession', once a person had 'sinned' (i.e., done something contrary to 'morals') they were to go to 'Hell', and religion would no longer have power over them. Part of the DoC is 'Confession', of course, just about the most perfect invasion of a person's privacy that can be imagined.]
The answer-
To ready and maintain the People of The Masses of civilization (i.e., the non-'elite') for easy extortion.
Further, to aid the promulgation of such folly, the 'elite' of civilization promulgate ignorance, by actively interfering with the People learning how to think for themselves (e.g., the in public schools).
This is why/how civilized religion both flowers in ignorance, and promulgates ignorance.
Civilized religion is the way, evolved over centuries, the 'elite' of civilization have devised to rob a large fraction of the only lives the People of The Masses of civilization will ever have - for the benefit of the 'elite' of civilization.
Of course this is the whole point of civilization itself - civilized 'religion' is just a part of it.
The dangerous aspect of all this is that it 'diverts' the behavior of civilized man from 'what works' in the ecosystem of our planet.
To the extent civilized behavior differs from 'what works' in the ecosystem, it contributes to the demise of civilization.
Civilization has placed itself in a contest with the ecosystem of our planet. All known living things are absolutely dependent upon the ecosystem for their existence. This futile contest will certainly not be lost by the ecosystem. Unless transformed, civilization will surely fail. I wonder if any humans will survive.
The danger is to us (civilized) alone - we have become 'society-cidal'.
Posted by: jj | August 21, 2008 2:14 PM
OT
Go Florida:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26316235/
Posted by: rob | August 21, 2008 2:15 PM
at #42, BobC:
that would make a great t-shirt!