…and this is a 
Oklahoma, you can do better than Sally Kern
Category: Kooks • Politics
Posted on: August 7, 2008 8:40 AM, by PZ Myers
I'm afraid the odious Oklahoma legislator, Sally Kern, has opened her mouth again. She has declared herself a "cultural warrior for Judeo-Christian values. I despise the term "Judeo-Christian" — it's so fake, and such a transparent attempt to tie morality to religion. So what are these "Judeo-Christian" values?
"I am not saying everyone has to be Christian; this is not a homogenous nation," Kern said. "What you have to be is someone who believes in a Judeo-Christian ethic, in other words, in knowing there's a right and wrong.
That's it? Knowing that some things are bad to do and others are good is all there is? Pagans, heathens, wiccans, atheists, Muslims, and animists all know that; dogs seem to feel guilt, and we could even argue that jellyfish are able to see the world in these kinds of binary terms. So why pretend Jews and Christians invented it?
Oh…because she has to have an absolutist rational for parochial fundagelical American bigotry.
"Not all lifestyles are equal; not all religions are equal," she said. "Was I saying all people are not equal? Heavens no; we were all created equal."
Kern repeated her opposition to gay marriage and homosexuality, though the lawmaker said she supports people's individual rights.
Pssst, Oklahomans: Vote for Ron Marlett this fall. Anyone but Bughouse Sally, please.
Politics
Comments
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT | August 7, 2008 8:49 AM
Right and wrong? No problem. This is wrong
See, easy.
Posted by: Chris Davis | August 7, 2008 8:50 AM
Damn - chimps know Right from Wrong.
But then that's the headspace we're dealing with here...
CD
Posted by: Berlzebub | August 7, 2008 8:51 AM
So, two people of the same gender having consentual sex is a greater threat than someone walking into a shopping mall strapped with explosives? If that's "Judeo-Christian" ethics, then I'll gladly pass.
Posted by: Daniel | August 7, 2008 8:51 AM
And it's not just goodness and virtue that they claim to have invented.
They also claim birth and death and marriage, just because they've set up rituals around these things. It's all been going on for millions of years before religion, but they think it belongs to them now.
Posted by: Tim | August 7, 2008 8:51 AM
If those fundies succeed in getting intolerance enshrined, they're going to be amazed at how fast it can turn and be aimed at them. It's like watching an idiot with matches and fireworks.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | August 7, 2008 8:55 AM
If those fundies succeed in getting intolerance enshrined, they're going to be amazed at how fast it can turn and be aimed at them
IF???????
Posted by: extatyzoma | August 7, 2008 8:56 AM
her words display everything utterly wrong with a parochial religious view.
what a condescending, patronising, silly fucking witch.
its funny how her words simultaneously eliminate her from getting votes because 1)what she says is indefensible and
2)shows she is quite, quite stupid.
Posted by: James Haight | August 7, 2008 9:01 AM
Oh, fiddlesticks. Not this "Judeo-Christian ethic" bullshit again; we're already getting a lot of that back here in Dutchland politics. Someone needs to tell the people going off about it that to the extent that it is ethical, it is not uniquely Christian; and to the extent that it is Christian, it is fairly fucking reprehensible.
Posted by: rarus.vir | August 7, 2008 9:01 AM
Religious people are always blathering about equality, when what they really mean, unknowingly, is they want commonality. They crave validation for their incomprehensible world view because they can't support it with anything else but other people's beliefs. If enough people believe it, then it must be right.
Judeo Christian ethics; that's two mistakes in three words, Judaism and Christianity are two separate religions, and neither of them know a damn thing about ethics.
Posted by: Wowbagger | August 7, 2008 9:05 AM
Yes, because no ethnic group on the planet other than 2 out of the 3 Abrahamic religions managed to develop any sort of significant moral or ethical framework within their cultures.
And where exactly in the bible do either Moses or Jesus praise democracy?
Fucking idiot.
Posted by: Lynne | August 7, 2008 9:06 AM
OT
On "All Things Considered" on National Public Radio this afternoon there will be a story on Camp Inquiry, the summer camp for agnostic and atheistic children. I expect it--and the feedback, especially--to be interesting.
Posted by: bcwaterboy | August 7, 2008 9:12 AM
Judeo Christian is code for anti-gay and anti-abortion, the two obsessions of morons like Ms Kern. The code language is so silly, but millions believe it. Religion succeeds on the notion that if enough people believe it, it must be true.
Posted by: LisaJ | August 7, 2008 9:14 AM
Only an ignorant christian (or should I say Judeo-Christian) can contradict heself so obtusely and get away with it (with most people, anyway).
Posted by: Jamie | August 7, 2008 9:18 AM
I was talking to a friend of mine (a christian) about raising children and about my views on religion (I'm an athiest) and she said something that floored me. She said that she was raised as a christian so that she would grow up having values and grow up to be a good person. I couldn't believe that someone could be so arrogant to believe that just because they are christian they have morals and anyone else doesn't. The ignorance of some people astounds me.
Posted by: sotonohito | August 7, 2008 9:19 AM
The important thing to remember is when people like this say "morality" they mean "sex".
They don't think its immoral for a company to pay its workers less than a living wage. Back in the era of Jim Crow they didn't think it was immoral for blacks to be brutally oppressed. They don't think its immoral that Bush's war has killed a truly horrifying number of Iraqis.
Morality, the way they use the word, means nothing but obedience to their sexual taboos.
There is, of course, such a thing as absolute morality, and it shows that Ms. Kern and her ilk are immoral.
Posted by: BeamStalk | August 7, 2008 9:19 AM
Ugh, this is why I plan on moving from Oklahoma ASAP. At least the governor here vetoed the stupid "teachers can't mark answers wrong because it may offend a religion" law, or also known as the "how can we sneak in Intelligent Design" law.
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | August 7, 2008 9:20 AM
Is anti-Semitism a Judeo-Christian value?
Posted by: JJR | August 7, 2008 9:21 AM
"because she has to have an absolutist rational for parochial fundagelical American bigotry."
pssst: that's rationale (not "rational").
Otherwise, good post.
Posted by: Todd | August 7, 2008 9:23 AM
Why is it that when I hear people like Sally Kern say "Judeo-Christian values", I always imagine them with a cartoonish thought bubble over their heads that reads, "but the Jews killed baby Jesus."
Posted by: ElJay | August 7, 2008 9:30 AM
Hmmm. She pretty much is a distilation of the majority of Okies to me.
Yes I know there are good folk there too, just not the majority. I lived for 4 years in Tulsa, Blowjob Roberts university was down the road and a cultural highpoint to many: they would actually point it out to me as a place they were proud of.
I left a fishing club i belonged to when the pres declared that Hurricane Katrina was caused by gays and some god's wrath.WTF? He was a degreed biologist who worked for the local wildlife depatment there.Yes they have the potential to do better, we all do as humans, I just think they lack the willpower and even worse, the desire:Too many churches not enough decency.
My son is still stuck there through ties to his wife's family.
Ahh well, hope is good too.
Posted by: Alverant | August 7, 2008 9:39 AM
Would someone mind telling me what judeo-christian values are? I keep hearing about how this country was based on those values but whenever I ask for details or examples or proof I always wind up empty. Democracy doesn't seem to be one of those values. Neither does freedom of speech, press, or religion. Same is true of our opinions on privacy, fair trials, and our system of governmental checks and balances. The only "value" I've been able to find is the permissibility of using violence against those who are different because they are different. It's very common in judeo-christian history and (unfortunately) this country's history.
Posted by: Terrence | August 7, 2008 9:40 AM
Hi!
I want to share something that happend/found out yesterday.
I have a girlfriend which i love more when anything. She should be about 3rd months pregnant now and her father just died in cancer so she took 10 days to herself to go to Italy... That is what she told me. The truth is a bit different.
I found out yesterday that she was in SPAIN (another country) with her, listen to this... HUSBAND!
The woman i love, that says she loves me and am suppose to have a baby with is married. Now i dont know what was true or false, i dont know what to do with my life, i lost everything. How could she keep it secret? Was i that stupid and blind.
I just needed to tell someone and there alot of bright readers here. Im sorry im looking into the wall and dont know what to do with my life.
Posted by: Whateverman | August 7, 2008 9:43 AM
Slightly off-topic:
I've been conversing with an online friend now for 4 years. He lives up in the Great White North, and has much to say about politics and religion and common sense.
He recently declared himself a weak atheist, and almost at the same time, that he wants to get into politics.
I'm pretty sure the discussions and debates he and I have had have been helping him forumlate strategies and solidiy his ideas. I'm not an atheist (cautious deist is more accurate), but I really enjoy talking with him and exchanging ideas.
All of this is to say: as individuals, it's possible to fight the fundies by having an influence over people who will be in a position to lead. For me, this is far better than reading the comments of Senator Kern and gnashing my teeth at the idiocy.
Posted by: John C. Randolph | August 7, 2008 9:44 AM
Just one wee point about the difference between judaism and christianity: Judaism is a monotheistic religion. No "son o'god", no "holy ghost". One god, that's all.
Christianity is entirely incompatible with judaism, despite its plagiarism of the Torah.
-jcr
Posted by: Chi | August 7, 2008 9:44 AM
I hereby declare my intent to fit "Judo-Christian" into conversation as many times as inappropriately possible in the next week.
Posted by: CalGeorge | August 7, 2008 9:46 AM
Democrats in Kansas are also good at gay-bashing.
Via Archy:
A last minute anti-gay campaign helped a Kansas Democrat eke out a victory in yesterday's statehose primary. The concern trolls who have been telling the Democrats that we need to embrace the religious right's "family values" narrative must be happy today.
Governor Sibelius failed to respond to requests to denounce the gay-bashing candidate.
What's the matter with Kansas?
Posted by: Loudon is a Fool | August 7, 2008 9:46 AM
. . . dogs seem to feel guilt . . . .
???
Atheism makes you stoopid.
Posted by: jimmiraybob | August 7, 2008 9:48 AM
If you read the law Code of Hammurabi it becomes obvious that it is firmly grounded in the Judeo-Christian ethic [que chorus of angels] of right and wrong. That it predates the Judeo-Christian religious tradition is truly a miracle.
Posted by: John C. Randolph | August 7, 2008 9:48 AM
I left a fishing club i belonged to when the pres declared that Hurricane Katrina was caused by gays and some god's wrath.
I would have asked him why god didn't destroy New Orleans back around 1900 when it was far more decadent than it is today. Is god a procrastinator?
-jcr
Posted by: Dutch Delight | August 7, 2008 9:49 AM
@Terrence
Did you just mistake pharyngula for a forum on relationship issues?
If you are actually in the situation you describe, good luck trying to get yourself on the road again.
Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | August 7, 2008 9:54 AM
"The foundation of morality should not be made dependent on myth nor tied to any authority lest doubt about the myth or about the legitimacy of the authority imperil the foundation of sound judgment and action."
(Words of Wisdom from Albert Einstein)
Posted by: Ouchimoo | August 7, 2008 10:00 AM
Hmm Tulsa. . that's funny. I have an acquaintance who is a month shy of moving down to Tulsa, OK. The great amusement of that is he went on and on about how MN was too non-progressive. We don't teach evolution in schools, that we are extremely racist and we're probably homophobic as well. And he's EXCITED to move to Tulsa. I'm sorry, did I miss something?
Posted by: Ed Darrell | August 7, 2008 10:00 AM
What?
Kern doesn't practice right and wrong. Well, let's be more specific: Kern practices the wrong, the evil, the falsehoods and dishonesty we hope can be wrung out of politics.
How about basic honesty? Isn't that right? Kern fails on the most basic score.
Does she think that makes her an atheist or something? She doesn't have the natural honor to claim the title of "atheist."
Kern is such a nut in so many ways.
Posted by: Captain Mike | August 7, 2008 10:01 AM
#27: "'. . . dogs seem to feel guilt . . . .'
???
Atheism makes you stoopid."
No it doesn't. Some work has been done that seems to show that dogs have a basic theory of mind, so it's quite possible that they feel guilt as well. Dogs certainly know when they've done something the rest of their pack (i.e. their humans) considers to be against the rules, and even look guilty and ashamed. I know my dogs always did.
Posted by: Dutch Delight | August 7, 2008 10:02 AM
An exemplary rebuttal. Well done.
Posted by: Ouchimoo | August 7, 2008 10:04 AM
Some of those commenters scare me more than the article itself. :(
Posted by: Celandine | August 7, 2008 10:04 AM
I can't vote for Mr. Marlett as I live in a different district, but my representative is Al McAffrey, who is - gasp! - openly gay. Yes, here in Oklahoma. How he and Ms. Kern get along I couldn't say.
Posted by: Elf Eye | August 7, 2008 10:07 AM
Around here, if you do something folks approve of, you may be told that 'that was very Christian of you'. I should have told the lady who said that my adopting my daughter was a 'Christian thing to do' that I am an atheist. It would have been amusing to watch her head explode. Oh, I guess that's not very Christian of me!
Posted by: Blaidd Drwg | August 7, 2008 10:08 AM
OK, here's a somewhat OT question I've been meaning to ask for a while now:
What is the difference between a Deist and a Theist?
Posted by: Jams | August 7, 2008 10:09 AM
Only marginally OT.
More Kansas weirdness: God is punishing Canada
Why do I sense that somebody is about to run afoul of Canada's hate laws?
Posted by: Blaidd Drwg | August 7, 2008 10:11 AM
@ Celandine:
There once was a queer from Kharthoum
Who took a dyke up to his room
They argued all night
Over who had the right
To do what, with what, and to whom
Thank you, I'll be here all week, and remember to tip your waitress.
Posted by: CrypticLife | August 7, 2008 10:15 AM
Loudon@27,
Where do you think the phrase "tail between your legs" came from? Have you ever owned a dog (in particular, German Shephards are good for seeing apparently guilt-ridden behaviors)?
Posted by: brokenSoldier, OM | August 7, 2008 10:15 AM
Posted by: rarus.vir | August 7, 2008 9:01 AM
I think you nailed it right there. They prepetually seek out external valiadtion and support for their specific set of beliefs, and I would add the caveat that those efforts are usually not guided in all means by adherence to truth. It is funny to me that someone that espouses "Judeo-Christian" ethics and morality sees no problem with such wilful intellectual - and sometimes even factual - dishonesty.
Posted by: Andrew | August 7, 2008 10:17 AM
There have been **cough cough** rumors about the lifestyle preferences of her son. Maybe mother has some familial loathing issues? Very Judeo-Christian of her!
Posted by: Janine ID | August 7, 2008 10:18 AM
"I am not saying everyone has to be Christian; this is not a homogenous nation," Kern said. "What you have to be is someone who believes in a Judeo-Christian ethic, in other words, in knowing there's a right and wrong.
So all of those civilizations that did not have contact with christian thought had no idea of right and wrong? Is this a stupidity and short sightedness she was born with or did she will herself to be this stupid?
Posted by: Interrobang | August 7, 2008 10:21 AM
Judaism and Christianity are two separate religions, and neither of them know a damn thing about ethics.
There's actually a well-developed and ancient school of Jewish ethics, some of which, despite its antiquity, is quite secular. The main thing that causes that distinction in Judaism is that Judaism is primarily a religion about how to live, and Christianity is a religion about how to die. The former is (with reason) obviously more concerned about ethics than the latter, since all that matters really in Christianity is following the elaborate rules until you obtain your Get Out of Hell Free Card.
The ironic thing is, the two most similar Abrahamic religions are Christianity and Islam, although if you ever said something like "Islamo-Christian values" to someone like Sally Kern, they'd stroke out from apoplexy. Some easily-amused Okie Pharynguloid ought to try it sometime. (Got a camera phone and a YouTube account?)
Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | August 7, 2008 10:26 AM
Sally Kern, when will you learn
To keep your big mouth shut?
You have the choice to use your voice
To love your neighbor--but--
It seems your fate is spewing hate;
When will you ever learn?
Please, voters, try to say goodbye
To Bigot Sally Kern.
Posted by: Chris Crawford | August 7, 2008 10:27 AM
The term "Judeo-Christian" has no applicability to Western democracy. Judeo-Christian ethics approved of slavery, had nothing whatever to say about democracy, and certainly did not introduce the idea of the dignity of the individual -- that's a Germanic concept. It did not accept the notion of the rule of law nor the idea that the law applies even to the leaders. Western democracy is derived from Germanic and Classical notions, not Judeo-Christian ones.
Posted by: jimmiraybob | August 7, 2008 10:27 AM
oops, I see that Wowbagger @ #10 already covered Hammurabi.
Deism
Theism
Posted by: Tulse | August 7, 2008 10:31 AM
Interrobang:
Yeah, Judaism certainly doesn't involve any elaborate rule-following...
Posted by: Mooser | August 7, 2008 10:32 AM
Ms. Kern, it's very important that you know that the Jews in your Judeo-Christian deny, yes, overtly deny Christs divinity and saving power. In fact, many Jews deny Christ existed, or see Him as a malevolent figure, given the results for the Jews of His teachings.
Where does that leave your Judeo-Christian?
We think your religion (Christianity) is a hoax! Feeling all inter-faith now?
Posted by: Anon | August 7, 2008 10:33 AM
Andrew @44--
She has addressed those rumours; they are a case of mistaken identity.
She is odious enough without lying to embellish.
Posted by: Dahan | August 7, 2008 10:35 AM
"OK, here's a somewhat OT question I've been meaning to ask for a while now:
What is the difference between a Deist and a Theist?"
Might I suggest Webster's (or any other) online dictionary? Why would you take the time to ask someone here to take their time to write up the definitions when they are so readily available in so many places?
Posted by: Steve | August 7, 2008 10:40 AM
Actually, I disagree with you that Sally Kern is such a bad person. I think that this author is simply very ignorant of both Oklahoma and the American South in general. It looks like he comes from a liberal enclave in Minnesota (which is actually pretty conservative overall itself) but a look at recent polling finds that Oklahomans back John McCain over Barack Obama by a more than 2 to 1 margin. I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's likely that most Oklahomans - or at least most Oklahomans in her district - share her views.
And if you don't like it? Well, either stop flapping your jaw or move to Canada or San Francisco!
Posted by: clinteas | August 7, 2008 10:41 AM
//What you have to be is someone who believes in a Judeo-Christian ethic, in other words, in knowing there's a right and wrong.//
I can haz eat head now?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT | August 7, 2008 10:43 AM
Yeah. Great. Since a lot of people may agree with her it makes her being a bigoted woman ok?
Posted by: Mooser | August 7, 2008 10:44 AM
Yeah, Judaism certainly doesn't involve any elaborate rule-following...
I never noticed any. I wonder which is worse in God's eyes? Buying some Southron preacher a fancy house and college, or turning your religion into a machine for supporting an armed religious colony, which steals its land from the rightful owners?
I guess I'll have to ask Him when I get the chance. If I can get an answer back to you folks, I will.
Posted by: Tulse | August 7, 2008 10:44 AM
Which of course makes her views correct, as the majority is never wrong on moral issues. Just look at the South prior to the Civil War!
Posted by: Aaron Baker | August 7, 2008 10:45 AM
The phrase "Judeo-Christian" is bothersome for historical reasons. Judaism and Christianity are in fact very different religions, obviously quite opposed to each other on some key theological issues, and by no means having identical ethical teachings. One difference between Judaism and Christianity that makes Judaism more attractive to me, an unbeliever, is that Christianity is emphatically focused on individual salvation, Judaism much more so on right conduct, regardless of whether it saves one's skin or not. Note that this is an ethical difference, arising out of theological considerations. Since belief in an afterlife, let alone a happy afterlife, is optional for a Jew, he or she may concentrate entirely on doing right in the here and now. Compare the allegedly sublime Sermon on the Mount, where nearly every precept has salvation as its motive: "Judge not, THAT ye be not judged," and so on.
Posted by: Richard Eis | August 7, 2008 10:47 AM
So, she doesn't mind us not being Christian as long as we know we are wrong. Because although she thinks we are all equals, our views are not. Nice...
So, how does that work i wonder, if my lifestyle (not equal to hers) is linked to my biology, which is apparently equal to hers?
Sad cow. Picking on Christians these days is like shooting fish in a barrel with a sniper rifle.
Posted by: Captain Mike | August 7, 2008 10:48 AM
@ #54: She is a bad person Steve. She is a monstrous bigot fueled by hate. The fact that she is surrounded by dingdongs who share her views doesn't make the views themselves any less hateful.
Posted by: Mooser | August 7, 2008 10:50 AM
There's actually a well-developed and ancient school of Jewish ethics, some of which, despite its antiquity, is quite secular
Interrobang
Yes, Interrobang, we see this wonderful ethics at work in Israel and Gaza every day!
Oh Jesus, Interrobang, just let us be people! Don't make what we do even worse by claiming we have some sort of "ethic". It just makes things worse.
Posted by: Alabama Blue Dot | August 7, 2008 10:55 AM
The term "Judeo-Christian" entered the fundie vernacular because it was pointed out so many times that most of what fundamentalist Christians preach was not, in fact Christian but rather Jewish. Creation? Jewish. Unclean women? Jewish. Rules on who you can have sex with? Jewish. So in order to cover themselves, the fundies started to call it Judeo-Christian.
When someone says "Judeo-Christian" what they mean is "my brand of fundamentalist intolerant stupid Christian." You will not find open-minded Christians using that term.
Posted by: Whateverman | August 7, 2008 11:02 AM
Dahan #53: although I agree with you that the web most often contains answers to questions of interest to a community, I only use it as a starting/reference point. When getting involved in a discussion group (or trying to uderstand the topics being discussed), it's almost always necessary to find out how that community defines terms.
As an example, the definitions used in alt.atheism existed several years before dictionaries and encyclopedias began to acknowledge them. I found the community alternately agreeing and disparaging common/dictionary usage, and so I had a difficult time "fitting in".
In other words, I don't think it was unreasonable to ask this group for the aforementioned definitions. Certainly, Wiki is an excellent source these days, though...
Posted by: Janine ID | August 7, 2008 11:05 AM
Posted by: Steve | August 7, 2008 10:40 AM
Actually, I disagree with you that Sally Kern is such a bad person. I think that this author is simply very ignorant of both Oklahoma and the American South in general.
It is a well decumented fact that when a majority of a population believes something, it becomes the TRUTH. One best not question the collective wisdom.
Sorry Steve, that insane person claims that people like me are more dangerous then the September 11 terrorists. It makes her stupid, deluded and bad. It matters not that a slim majority of the people in her area agrees with her, she is wrong.
Oh, nice crack about San Francisco. So nice of you to point out your homophobia. But I have to point out this fact to you, Stevie-boy; the majority of people in San Francisco are heterosexual, just like any other enclave of humanity.
Seems you are just flapping your jaw.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | August 7, 2008 11:06 AM
Yeah. Great. Since a lot of people may agree with her it makes her being a bigoted woman ok?
Steve seems to be one of 'em.
Posted by: Mold | August 7, 2008 11:15 AM
This cow used to teach children. Scary.
She longs for the Bad Old Days when darkies knew their place, intellectuals moved to NYC at 15, and the world didn't constantly point out her stupidity.
Years ago, a rural moron could leave school and work for a living wage in a local factory. Or they could hire out as daylabour. The 'Merican dollar was worth mucho dinero. Working-class Americans could travel to Europe and live like the upper classes. Fat cowsows could snap their fingers at professional waitstaff and get deferential service. The educated soon learned that the rest of the world worked cheaper, faster, besser, and with less attitude.
Hiring Mexes came easy after the local yokels botched the job...for the third time...after strewing the workplace with cigarette butts. The cleanup cost was near double the original job. Mexes show up, on time, and work for the entire shift. Hell, they appreciate the ice water!
Posted by: Sili | August 7, 2008 11:17 AM
I was gonna suggest we add [Islamo] every time "Judeo-Christian" is used, but it get's a bit unwieldy.
So how about just "[Islamo]-Christian"? Or, pace John C. Randolph, "Judeo-[Islamic]". Hmmm - I like it.
Posted by: mothwentbad | August 7, 2008 11:19 AM
Oh, God, someone just dropped the "luvviterleevit" bomb. How appalling. It's like "agree to disagree" plus a middle finger.
How about a trichotomy instead - love it, leave it, or confront it?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT | August 7, 2008 11:29 AM
He's one of something, that's for sure.
Posted by: Qwerty | August 7, 2008 11:39 AM
She probably thinks "gay rights" are special rights! I've come to the conclusion that they are special IF YOU DON'T HAVE THEM! *growl*
Posted by: Atheologian | August 7, 2008 11:40 AM
Judeo-Christian values is just a code word for homobigotry.
Posted by: Barklikeadog | August 7, 2008 11:48 AM
Terrance, I assume you are young and haven't yet had the kind of heartaches some of us have had. What I do know, & I've been in a similar situation, is that you will get over it; eventually. What do you do with your life? Carry On! Alot of people would think of offing themselves and I knew someone who did. All I can say is don't. Think of what will come after and the wisdom you will gain from this. Remeber what doesn't kill you will make you stronger (wiser). It's going to hurt like hell for awhile. Just accept that. Pretty soon you'll stop being hurt and you'll get angry. Direct that into making your life better. Keep going to work or school or what ever you do. If she's such a liar and a cheat why would you want her anyway? Sex is better with someone you trust. There are trustworthy people out there. Eventually you will find her. Best of luck!
Posted by: Natalie | August 7, 2008 11:50 AM
Oh, Steve, you are so stupid.
Have you ever actually been to Minnesota? The whole state? It's not very conservative, particularly compared to the American South. Yes, we currently have a Republican governor - what of it? When one looks at broader trends, Minnesota is far more liberal both socially and economically.
And the Twin Cities, where over half the population resides (that makes us a majority, asshat) is even more liberal than outstate Minnesota. Come up here for Pride some summer (2nd largest free Pride festival in the country) and tell me this is a conservative state. Then again, the sight of so many GLBT people being completely normal would probably make your head explode.
Posted by: Duvenoy | August 7, 2008 11:52 AM
OK can do better than Sally Kern? Hell, the Mustang Ranch can do better than Sally Kern. She's just another bigoted hooker walking the streets of religion, selling herself to service others like herself.
doov
Posted by: qbsmd | August 7, 2008 12:07 PM
Please do. I want to see that argument. I thought jellyfish were purely passive and just had simple sensor->muscle reflexes.
Posted by: Graculus | August 7, 2008 12:10 PM
Dogs certainly know when they've done something the rest of their pack (i.e. their humans) considers to be against the rules, and even look guilty and ashamed.
Is being able to fake guilt evidence that they can feel guilt (in order to fake it)?
Posted by: Cogito | August 7, 2008 12:11 PM
I always thought "Judeo-Christian" was a case of protesting too much. The really whacked out fundies know deep down (or heck, right on the surface) that they want to impose their very narrow religious views through the government, and that Jews, as an organized and vocal minority with a lot of sympathy from mainstream Christians, are the most likely folk to block them. They may also realize that should the fundie dream government ever come to fruition, the climate for Jews would most likely resemble that of Medieval Europe. So to cover their asses and appear acceptable to the wider world, they make a huge show of embracing the Jewish faith and pretending they all share the same values.
Posted by: ice9 | August 7, 2008 12:12 PM
Another purpose--equally disingenuous--for the Judeo/Christian confabulation is the attractiveness of the old testament books of the bible for modern literalists. The new testament is thin on sharp and direct condemnations which can be used to attack people or policies, fuel fear, and pump donations and political power. The new testament is troublesome; it contains lots of confusing parables and openly challenging general admonitions such as "love thy neighbor" or give all your Escalades to the poor or turn the other cheek, that sort of commie propaganda that makes strong, right-thinking Christians into weak-kneed liberals with one-way tickets to San Francisco in their pockets.
The old testament--which is really the Jewish book, the Pentateuch (Tanakh) predating Christ--is full of lovely unequivocal eye-gouging, good old declarations of "right and wrong." The inconvenient ones dealing with multiple wives, slaves, shellfish, and all that can be ignored or negotiated away; the ones that confirm our existing biases and get our hearts racing can be graven into images and used to poke politicians in the butt.
American fundies' use of the five books is insultingly naive and corrupt when compared to the Jewish tradition. Even most conservative jews who observe all the laws rely on careful Talmudic interpretation and commentary. They don't just yank them out and put them on a bumpersticker.
The patent inconsistency of this approach by American and other fundies--ahistorical, sleazy, and corrupt--actually becomes an advantage for the strutting, sweating fundamentalist preacher, shouting at his choir. Point it out and you're an academic, pointy-lenin-bearded elitist intellectual. We'll come for you first, it says right here in Deuteronomy.
That's what Lay Down Sally means when she says Judeo-Christian: We'll take a lot of interpretive risks if we can only have Levitics 18:22. Please? We need it. Without that verse we might have to govern!
ice
Posted by: Barklikeadog | August 7, 2008 12:14 PM
Being from Oklahoma I can honestly say that Kern is anathema here too. She most probably won't survive this next round of elections. There is a big drive to vote her out. I'm not in her district so I have no say, but I'm pretty sure that Marlett will take that district. She isn't representative of the people I associate with. Even the Xians I know & love. She is an embarrassment. A few weeks back she was detained at the capitol building for trying to enter with a gun in her purse. And it wasn't the first time either. To say she is dangerous is an understatment and the electorate knows it. I'll be pretty shocked if they don't take care of this idiot and remove her from office.
Posted by: Hap | August 7, 2008 12:22 PM
#75: I don't think she's looking to service others like herself - she wants to be a dom, and everyone she doesn't like should be her bottom. Good luck with that, Sally.
I think either of my cats would make a better legislator than Sally Kern. I know that they don't do much, other than usual cat things, but I'm pretty sure they have better characters and more intelligence, though I may be biased.
Posted by: Kevin | August 7, 2008 12:32 PM
As a godless liberal living in Oklahoma I can say that Barklikeadog got it right. Unfortunately, Steve is a little bit right as well. Oklahoma does suffer from the "What's the matter with Kansas?" syndrome. We have a lot of single issue voters here. They will vote republican even if it is not in their own economic interests to do so simply because they think that democrats will (pick any one or more of the following): a) take their guns away; b) take god out of the pledge of allegiance; c) make their daughters get abortions; d) make their sons get "gay married"; or e) some other irrational nonsense advocated by the likes of Rush Limbaugh.
Posted by: Nentuaby | August 7, 2008 12:38 PM
A theist is anyone at all who believes in the existence of God, god, or gods. The term "theist" incorporates many (but not all) agnostics, Christians, Jews, Hindus, many (but not all) pagans, etc.
A Deist has the specific belief that god (or God) exists and created the universe (and a Deist is therefore another example of a theist), but does not intervene in its current workings.
Posted by: jp | August 7, 2008 12:49 PM
this thread is hilarious... bigots scoffing at bigots. another epic pot versus kettle battle.
Posted by: Jello | August 7, 2008 12:58 PM
Hmm, that sounds familiar. Ah yes, the old "All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others" argument, disturbing.
Posted by: mothwentbad | August 7, 2008 1:13 PM
JP -
Right, we're not "neutral" enough. So live and let not let live? It's all just "points of view"? Just look the other way and hope for the best?
Posted by: Hap | August 7, 2008 1:19 PM
I thought Sally's kids weren't allowed on the Internet without permission - I guess someone set the password to the family dog's name again.
Someone better get home and reset the password before things really get out of hand. Oh, and you might want to clean the crayon off the monitor.
Posted by: Whateverman | August 7, 2008 1:23 PM
Random stuff:
jp #84: there's very little bigotry in this thread, which happens to be discussing a political leader who willingly displays hers with pride. I'm not sure what you think you're seeing, but as far as I can tell, it isn't close to being accurate or real.
Graculus #77: I'm not sure where you're coming from (with regards to the "dog guilt" notion), so I'll take you seriously:
No, faking guilt at best shows the ability to empathize; and empathy is found even in pathological criminals. The ability to understand what the other is feeling (or wants you to feel) doesn't necessarily mean you feel it youself.
I personally suspect dogs can "feel guilty". But it's also possible we're incorrectly anthropomorphizing some other emotion or instinct; fear (at having upset a superior), manipulation via empathy (for purposes of survival), etc.
In any case, I think this whole idea was raised as a response to Mr. Comfort's assertion that dogs can't feel guilt (with regards to legal Guilt or Innocence). It was a ridiculous things to say, and even if this community's examples aren't dead-on, it's certain there's enough evidence to indicate Mr. Comfort had no idea of what he was talking about.