…and this is a 
“Our tribal custom”
Category: Evil • Religion
Posted on: August 31, 2008 10:52 AM, by PZ Myers
Whenever you hear someone defend an action with the excuse that “it is our custom,” “it is traditional,” “we've always done it that way,” “it is written so in our sacred texts,” or variants thereof, slap ’em down and spit in their eye. Those are not excuses for anything but the perpetuation of bad old dogma rather than taking the useful step of actually thinking about causes and consequences — it's the common fallacious shortcut that allows ancient evils to thrive. Case in point in Pakistan:
Balochistan Senator Sardar Israrullah Zehri stunned the upper house on Friday when he defended the recent incident of burying alive three teenage girls and two women in his province, saying it was part of "our tribal custom." Senator Bibi Yasmin Shah of the PML-Q raised the issue citing a newspaper report that the girls, three of them aged between 16 and 18 years, had been buried alive a month ago for wishing to marry of their own will. The barbaric incident took place in a remote village of Jafarabad district and a PPP minister and some other influential people were reported to have been involved. The report accused the provincial government of trying to hush up the issue. Ms Shah said that the hapless girls and the women were first shot in the name of honour and then buried while they were alive. She also said that no criminal had been arrested so far.
Hmmm. We have a difficult choice here, and someone is going to be offended no matter which way we go. Shall we offend half the population of the planet by saying we should we support torturing independent-minded teenage girls to death, or should we piss off a gang of pig-ignorant misogynistic Muslim tribesman by pointing out that their customs are barbaric and savage and oppressive?
Wait, hey, that isn't a difficult choice at all! It doesn't matter that someone might be offended, what's important is that we support equal opportunity and autonomy for all individuals and recognize that gender should not be a factor that affects the standing of citizens. And if that means traditional dogmas must be disparaged, I'm all the more for it.
(via Twisty)
Politics
Comments
Posted by: Kobra | August 31, 2008 11:06 AM
He buried them alive? Tsk tsk.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | August 31, 2008 11:06 AM
It's a fucked-up world, no doubt about it, and it's going to take more than Obama to even start making things right. Wish I knew what.
Posted by: Donovan | August 31, 2008 11:09 AM
"shot in the name of honor"?
I remember when honor involved DEFENDING the helpless and preventing cruelty. One of us, Mr. Zehri or me, is seriously f^$%ed up in the head! Okay, maybe both of us are, but I'm not THAT f^$%ed in the head!
Posted by: hje | August 31, 2008 11:12 AM
Some of these despicable practices pre-date Islam, but regardless ... to defend such practices in the 21st century boggles the mind.
We have a lot to worry about in Pakistan, not the least of which is that Al-Qaeda is being sheltered by tribal leaders in NW Pakistan, the leadership of the country is in flux, and terrorists have been able to attack and kill leaders with impunity. While Bush and McSame continue to focus on Iraq (for the next millennium if necessary), Afghanistan slips back into the control of the Taleban, and Pakistan edges slowly closer to a nuclear armed state run by Islamic radicals.
Posted by: negentropyeater | August 31, 2008 11:16 AM
Probably will take a virgin to get another son of God...
Posted by: Jacques | August 31, 2008 11:26 AM
Hey PZ, I thought you never went after the Islamists! Maybe someone should inform Bill Bennet, lunatic catholic windbag, of this article.
Posted by: Jason | August 31, 2008 11:27 AM
"You say that it is your custom to burn widows. Very well. We also have a custom: when men burn a woman alive, we tie a rope around their necks and we hang them. Build your funeral pyre; beside it, my carpenters will build a gallows. You may follow your custom. And then we will follow ours." - General Sir Charles James Napier (in relation to Sati)
Seems an appropriate quote.
Posted by: Andrés Diplotti | August 31, 2008 11:29 AM
#5 oh, please, no. The last thing we need in this state of affairs is a messianic movement.
Posted by: Sleeping at the Console | August 31, 2008 11:29 AM
These traditions are so barbaric that it's hard to imagine that there are still such savages and primitive "cultures" in the world. We broke free from the Dark Age, why can't they? We don't do torture anymore, and the death penalty is abandoned. It's possible to advance.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | August 31, 2008 11:31 AM
Do you mean Bill Donohue ?
I hope no one does tell him. He might get ideas and wonder how he can argue Catholics not being allowed to kill their disrespectful children is a form of anti-Catholic bigotry.
Posted by: thethyme | August 31, 2008 11:33 AM
Buried Alive... Buried Alive... under what ancient delusion was this a custom?
Whose cares if people are offended lives are on the line. Your tribal customs be damned!
Just remember to ask yourself what would The Doctor do?
Posted by: raven | August 31, 2008 11:34 AM
The Hindus used to burn widows alive on funeral pyres, settee. And claimed it was their custom, truly.
The British told them it was their custom to hang men who burned women alive. They also said, the next clown that torches a widow would swing from a rope. That ended settee.
At some point, one just has to say, "your custom is totally fucked up." Our custom is to charge killers with murder, try and convict them, and send them to prison.
Posted by: hje | August 31, 2008 11:36 AM
"... it's going to take more than Obama to even start making things right. Wish I knew what."
Ripley: I say we take off and nuke the entire site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure. Hudson: Fuckin' A...
I'm not suggesting this is really the solution--but it does briefly come to mind.
Posted by: Jason | August 31, 2008 11:37 AM
@#12 Great minds think alike :-)
Posted by: negentropyeater | August 31, 2008 11:38 AM
#8,
why ? This time, if he walks on water, transforms loafs of bread, and resucitates after dying, he'll really have to be the son of God. I'm quite sure he'd convert anybody, Muslims, Budhists and even Agnostics and Atheists.
Posted by: Capital Dan | August 31, 2008 11:50 AM
I read this yesterday, and damn near puked. I wish religion would just go away. It serves no purpose other than to destroy societies, cultures, and people. Humanity simply can not advance into the 21st Century with this anchor around our necks.
We don't need the fucking ghosts.
Posted by: Stephen | August 31, 2008 11:53 AM
What annoys me as much people saying "we do it that way because we've always done it that way" is people saying "we've done it that way for ages, so we need a change".
Both are substitutes for actually using ones brain.
Of course this case raises the appeal to tradition to a dreadful level of horror.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | August 31, 2008 12:04 PM
Paraphrasing Robert Anton Wilson, somnetimes I think it's a waste of time to try to change people; maybe our time would be better spent working to get the hell off the Planet of the Apes to start over someplace else.
Then I think about my daughter again.
Posted by: Zachary B. | August 31, 2008 12:06 PM
Is it morally right to wish death upon these people that did this? Because I do. Thoughts anyone?
Posted by: Stephen | August 31, 2008 12:09 PM
You don't live in the USA, do you?
Given the centuries it took "the west" to get from the Dark Ages to where it is now, I suggest that it would be unreasonable to expect the whole of the rest of the world to make the transition in a few decades. After all, the "civilisation" they experienced for much of the colonial period was in most cases probably not what you or I would care to subscribe to as a modern civilisation.
Was indeed civilisation in Europe or the USA just a few decades ago what you or I would care to subscribe to as a modern civilisation? To pick a random example: until the late 1940's Britain was still imprisoning women for the "crime" of being raped. What about how the USA was treating blacks in 1960? Be thankful for where we are and don't take it for granted.
Not of course that this in way means that we should refrain from condemning barbarity when we come across it.
Posted by: Norman Doering | August 31, 2008 12:12 PM
PZ said:
I don't think that would be very effective. Perhaps it would be better to suggest that they read "The Lottery" by Shirley Jackson?
Never mind. That's worse than "The Lottery" so they wouldn't get it. In that case I suggest fire bombing the whole tribe. The world would be better off if they just stopped existing.
Of course, condemn the pig-ignorant misogynistic Muslim tribesman all you want because they're probably never going to read this -- they probably can't read English and they probably don't have internet access. They don't have have a Bill Donohue of the Muslim league with hordes of brainwashed emailers threatening us for saying that... Well, not yet.
Those pig-ignorant misogynistic Muslim tribesman have never had the world looking at them the way we are now looking at them now and they don't actually realize it's happening -- they can't even comprehend what it means to have the world watching. They really have been living that way without anyone caring for untold generations. We turned our eyes to our own problems and ignored them as we did most of the world because the pig-ignorant misogynistic Muslim tribesman never threatened anyone until Osama bin Laden decided to hide among people like them.
I'm sure they feel the same murderous, offended rage knowing we let our women dress as they want and marry who they want.
What do you think we could to do to effect change in a peaceful way? Perhaps there is no peaceful option? If not, how far do you want to go to effect change?
Why can't we recruit those tribal women in the "war on terrorism" - meaning, the hunt for Osama bin Laden and his other operatives? Is there a way the women of these tribal areas can be reached? A secret network of cell phones given to the women of Pakistan? If they don't want change - then change will never happen.
Posted by: I am so wise | August 31, 2008 12:20 PM
"I suggest that it would be unreasonable to expect the whole of the rest of the world"
Not really. People and cultures can change with remarkable speed. Look at Germany. 60 years ago, they were massacring Jews and others by the millions. Today, there the most well behaved of all Europeans, narry a soccer riot from them.
In 1990, we mocked the Soviets for having travel papers, secret courts, and prison camps and today?
War Before Civilization has a good discussion the plastic nature of human nature and actions.
Posted by: Andrew T. | August 31, 2008 12:21 PM
Did anyone notice that Tim Pawlenty endorsed intelligent design on Meet the Press this morning?? Let's make sure this isn't forgotten!
Posted by: Danio | August 31, 2008 12:21 PM
You're fucking-A, Sven. My kids are not yet old enough to know the extent to which such atrocities are carried out in the world, but the day that they become aware is not far off. My concern is not so much for the inevitable explanations I'll have to make about why some people shoot their daughters and bury them alive, but for the explanation that a considerable number of people fully endorse this practice, and that an even greater number may feel a bit queasy about it, but wouldn't dream of interfering with the rights of the shooters and buriers.
The degree of tolerance that most are willing to extend to these monsters is simply mind-boggling.
Posted by: Matt Platte | August 31, 2008 12:26 PM
Those who casually toss the phrase "pig-ignorant" either haven't spent much time with swine or don't recognize it's inherently satiric.
Posted by: The Chemist | August 31, 2008 12:32 PM
This has nothing to do with even the most radical and strictest interpretations of Islam. It's a tribal custom, Islam explicitly forbids the burying alive of women and daughters as well as forced marriage. Gods and ghosts have nothing to do with it, though we can presume some level of rationalization on that end.
That is the single dumbest statement to appear in these comments. That's just what we need, the struggle of women to attain equality to be equated with global geopolitics.
Look, here's the be all and end all of the situation as far as "the West" is concerned in relation to this. "The West" is not very popular right now and has gone through the trouble of ensuring that level of discontent by propping up dictators, starting a meaningless war, and otherwise interfering in the affairs of the region.
Do you think that for one second, people there actually give a shit what you think? The answer is no. They don't, you're moralizing against a highly dubious backdrop. All this does is make it harder for feminists and rationalists over there to seem like anything more than ideological "agents of the West". You want to help? Don't. They don't need you, they have their own backgrounds and their cultures have their own ways of effecting change. Don't entangle the issue by tossing military might into the it.
Posted by: eddie | August 31, 2008 12:49 PM
Just remember. Those who support the present war in Afghanistan see the tribes as allies.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | August 31, 2008 1:02 PM
These areas tend to be pretty remote so I am not sure to what extend there would be mobile phone coverage. There is also the problem of re-charging the phones as electricity grids are not always present, and it would not be so easy to charge a phone from a generator (limited sockets etc). Using wind or solar chargers might be to visible.
Posted by: razib | August 31, 2008 1:07 PM
this practice has nothing to do with the true islam! this is culture, not religion.
Posted by: Captain C | August 31, 2008 1:09 PM
If people keep using "it's our custom" or "tradition" to defend barbarism, eventually, someone's going to get wise and point out that it's Western "custom" and "tradition" to conquer the sh*t out of everyone else and take all of their stuff, and that therefore they shouldn't do anything about it, lest they offend us, or be culturally imperialistic, or something.
Posted by: negentropyeater | August 31, 2008 1:24 PM
Let's just make a big fucking crater out of the middle east, Iran, pakistan and Afghanistan.
Like this, we'll kill Osama bin Laden, get rid of Islamic fundamentalism, and it'll be easier to extract petrol.
And don't tell me there aren't many Americans who'd approve this message.
Posted by: truth machine, OM | August 31, 2008 1:30 PM
What annoys me as much people saying "we do it that way because we've always done it that way" is people saying "we've done it that way for ages, so we need a change".
Both are substitutes for actually using ones brain.
If you actually were using your brain, you would realize that your latter is a caricature -- no one actually says that -- whereas the former is real. Such false equivalencies are a hallmark of intellectual dishonesty, a refusal to use your brain when doing so might upset your pet beliefs.
Posted by: Ghost of Minnesota | August 31, 2008 1:30 PM
http://www.stophonourkillings.com
Visit the above link. Bookmark it. Support these people. They're doing good work.
Posted by: Sleeping at the Console | August 31, 2008 1:30 PM
But it doesn't have to take as long as it did us, either. And we too have much work to do here as well.
No of course not. And I think that Europe have some sort of responsibility to help them out today.
I would not want to go back to those days. Even if we had made considerable advancements up until a few decades ago, we have achieved even more since then. But to be honest, I'm not happy with the way we are now, either.
We still have many problems with racial discrimination, gender inequality, social injustices, poverty even in the rich world, narrow views on marriage, ignorance, etc. We're far from where I want us to be.
Wherever we may come across it, here or there.
.
Posted by: Stephen | August 31, 2008 1:30 PM
Razib:
So just tell us this:
a) which authority (person or organisation) defines what is "the true islam"?
b) what percentage of the nominally muslim world accepts this authority?
Posted by: truth machine, OM | August 31, 2008 1:41 PM
In that case I suggest fire bombing the whole tribe. The world would be better off if they just stopped existing.
Yeah, let's kill off the women and children along with the men so the whole problem goes away.
Or perhaps we should firebomb all the morons on the planet, including Norm.
A secret network of cell phones given to the women of Pakistan?
How about a secret network of cell phones given to the members of Pakistan's upper house?
Idiot.
Posted by: Stephen | August 31, 2008 1:46 PM
"No one actually says that????" I will charitably assume that you've just got up and not yet had any coffee. Or something. Let's just say that if you had to buy me a meal for every time I've heard that from marketing managers, line managers, PR people, politicians etc, then your bank account would suffer serious damage.
Posted by: truth machine, OM | August 31, 2008 1:46 PM
Is it morally right to wish death upon these people that did this? Because I do. Thoughts anyone?
If you acted on that wish, would it be morally right for their survivors to wish death upon you?
What exactly does wishing death upon someone else get you? And it's clearly all about you.
Posted by: truth machine, OM | August 31, 2008 1:49 PM
"No one actually says that????"
Indeed, no one actually says that.
I will charitably assume that you've just got up and not yet had any coffee. Or something. Let's just say that if you had to buy me a meal for every time I've heard that from marketing managers, line managers, PR people, politicians etc, then your bank account would suffer serious damage.
Let's just say that you're an idiot who can't comprehend what is being said to you.
Posted by: Interrobang | August 31, 2008 1:50 PM
The British told them it was their custom to hang men who burned women alive. They also said, the next clown that torches a widow would swing from a rope. That ended settee.
You wish. Haven't read much about rural India lately, have you? The Indian government is still trying to enforce the ban, and ban the associated practice of women committing suicide by other means when their families and home villages shun them and turn them out. They then have nowhere to go and often wind up either committing suicide or begging in faraway cities while waiting to die.
In other words, the prevailing patriarchy made sure that what replaced sati was no better.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | August 31, 2008 1:52 PM
Religion is merely part of culture.
Posted by: Art | August 31, 2008 1:57 PM
What gets me is not the act in and of itself.
It is not uncommon for women to be shot and buried. What gets me is that the vast majority of these tragic events are done behind high fences, under the cover of night, by a small group and these individuals who are sworn to secrecy and who work hard as denying that the event ever took place. These people live in shame of the part they played and in fear of being caught and brought to justice.
What bothers me is that this was done openly with the approval of the powers that be and to the acclaim of religious leaders. The men who did the deed do not feel shame and they do not fear prosecution. Indeed, they likely feel pride and have received some acclaim for their willingness to perform this brutal act.
It is not so much that what they did was wrong on all possible levels. It is that this wrong is seen as right, just and a benefit to the society and its members. It is not just shameful and wrong. It is perversely held up as right.
Posted by: Norman Doering | August 31, 2008 1:58 PM
Matt Penfold wrote:
You're right. They don't have the infrastructure to support a normal cell-phone operation. In order to empower the women of the region you'd still need that communications grid with us plugged into it. Not only would you need the towers for mobile phone coverage (easily subject to sabotage if not hidden and protected) you'd need to be able to keep supplying them with batteries and/or have solar arrays that recharge them because of the lack of a good power grid.
It would cost, yes, but consider what we've already spent on this war for such meager results and also what it would mean to get the women of the region on our side. They might be an incredible information source that could tell us where bin Laden and the others are.
They're the people who should have the biggest gripe and the biggest desire for the western change. They might be the easiest to recruit into a a spy network for that reason (not that they'd be the only ones you'd recruit).
I could start listing the things you'd need and add up the cost and I think it would still be cheaper than many military operations we're already doing... And not just the technology but local language speakers already on your side to do some consciousness raising of the women and it could be done in Pakistan because it's not a military operation, but a police and spy operation.
Alas, I'm not with the NSA or CIA so this is just some crazy idea I'm throwing out there and hoping it might percolate upwards to the right people for them to judge it's merits.
Posted by: Capital Dan | August 31, 2008 2:00 PM
Bullshit. When it comes to all religions, there is no such thing as a "true" anything. If you can't grasp that, you are part of the problem.
Just say that this is not your Islam, and pretend that your conscience is clean.
Posted by: JStein | August 31, 2008 2:01 PM
This is really a tragedy, and while I agree with you, PZ, that it's a good idea to take some action on this, I do think it's important to remind you that this is a tragedy, not just an opportunity to make a point. Your post seemed to ignore any sentimental attachment to these young women and use the event simply as a point.
For those who would defend this as saying that this is part of religion and not a part of culture, it does say in the Koran that if a woman disobeys her parents, she is to be stoned to death. In fact, it says this in the Bible too. So that's pretty obviously crap.
That said, "true Islam" is only what it's practitioners make it. If religious people are destroying every religion, using it to do evil things, then perhaps it's not an issue of the people (who are capable of doing alot of good), but an issue of a religious system that doesn't call for accountability for the stoning of young girls.
Posted by: Alan Chapman | August 31, 2008 2:05 PM
Argumentum ad Antiquitam incorrectly asserts that something is more likely to be correct because it is old or because "it has always been done that way."
Posted by: Daniel | August 31, 2008 2:09 PM
It doesn't matter that someone might be offended, what's important is that we support equal opportunity and autonomy for all individuals and recognize that gender should not be a factor that affects the standing of citizens.
Hmm. Aren't equality and autonomy cultural values, just as oppression is?
Yes.
And I'm enough of a cultural imperialist to want to impose those values anywhere they aren't found.
Posted by: Neural T | August 31, 2008 2:13 PM
We should support a modified version of Grover Norquist's famous quote: "I don't want to abolish religion. I simply want to reduce it to the size where I can drag it into the bathroom and drown it in the bathtub."
Posted by: foxfire | August 31, 2008 2:19 PM
I can think of something far more effective than "pointing out" - see Raven's # 12 (beat me to it)
Posted by: Katharine | August 31, 2008 2:23 PM
razib -
It's kind of sad when you, who are a very good blogger on ScienceBlogs, resort to a No True Scotsman argument.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | August 31, 2008 2:25 PM
Is it morally right to wish death upon these people that did this? Because I do. Thoughts anyone?
Morality: je nai pas besoin de ce hypothese.
If you simply recognize that there is no such thing as "morality" or "right" and "wrong" then suddenly everyone's* become a lot easier to make sense of.
(*human, animal, etc.)
Posted by: scooter | August 31, 2008 2:27 PM
This story reminds me of two million deaths in Latin America over 40 years associated with the price of bananas and coffee.
Well, except for the difference in numbers, but you're right about ignorant fuckwad murdering barbarians and their silly customs.
-post over
Shop as usual
Posted by: natural cynic | August 31, 2008 2:30 PM
First of all, I think that "pig ignorant" is the proper Muslim-related level of insult to the Baluchi culture in this instance.
One should also note that Baluchistan covers part of Iran and the Baluchis are "friends" of the CIA which has been trying to foment rebellion and independence from Iran. The enemy of my enemy is...
On a milder note, Mike the Mad Biologist links to a Driftglass piece about something much nearer home in the attitudes of those being screwed the most by the neocons while they are focused on political trivialities. That's part of our culture.
Posted by: Bill the Cat | August 31, 2008 2:42 PM
Why not help in some practically way, as in teaching women and girls how to murder a man in his sleep? If they would start killing off the men who get uppity, there'd be fewer and fewer arrogant men.
In such societies, women cannot march in the streets. But they all have access to kitchens, knives, and whetstones.
Posted by: Norman Doering | August 31, 2008 2:56 PM
Bill the Cat wrote:
Because for one woman to do that would only result in her following death, it would be a kind of "suicide bombing" knowing what will happen when you do. That's why you need to empower them with a communications network first (as in #43).
Posted by: T_U_T | August 31, 2008 3:00 PM
If you simply recognize that there is no such thing as "morality" or "right" and "wrong" then suddenly everyone's* become a lot easier to make sense of.
I sincerely hope you are just kidding.
Posted by: scooter | August 31, 2008 3:03 PM
Danio #24
The degree of tolerance that most are willing to extend to these monsters is simply mind-boggling.
Right, but I assume you are an American, and are paying taxes, and hopefully Gustav will blow out the fire that just erupted when my hypocrometer exploded.
I suggest reading up on the works of Jennifer Harbury as a starting point.
There's a big difference between getting belly shot and buried, which is a relatively easy way to go, and having every bone in your body broken, then reset purposefully crooked, you genitals removed by twisting, or breasts in the same fashion, having gases injected into your body, being drowned unconscious every day, and burned with a blow torch for over two years with doctors on hand to prevent your death.
Those were your tax dollars at work if you're over thirty, and coffee still went up in price, despite our tolerance.
One might suggest those days are behind us, but how about this report from Bag-dad I lifted for a torture mix?
http://acksisofevil.org/audio/torture.mp3
I'll take the gut shot and buried alive option over US practices any day.
Danio I love you to death, and enjoy reading you regularly, but please understand, there's not a whole lot we can do about Pakistani lunatics, so perhaps we should focus our energy inward, even though the twisted image from a warped made in USA mirror reflects a somewhat hideous image.
Posted by: T_U_T | August 31, 2008 3:25 PM
I love this one
some americans horribly tortured some people, so all americans have to shut up forever and can not complain about anything other people do no matter how evil
Posted by: T_U_T | August 31, 2008 3:28 PM
I love this one
some americans horribly tortured some people, so all americans have to shut up forever and can not complain about anything other people do no matter how evil
Posted by: scooter | August 31, 2008 3:31 PM
Stephen and Truth Machine
At my own peril I have to side with Stephen on the dabate. People will change shit that is working just fine simply to make a name for themselves.
Not only is history rife with misguided do-gooders or self promoters crashing a system, but the field of engineering is constantly threatened by such improvements
Not a week goes by that I do not have to clean up mechanical systems that have been upgraded into the new digital wonderland.
Sometimes a simple on off switch, and a potentiometer is sufficient, as opposed to fully programmable digital front end display systems.
And so on down the line.
Posted by: Jacob Basson | August 31, 2008 3:43 PM
at least it's evidence for evolution...these people seem like a transitional species, somewhere between apes and humans.
Posted by: scooter | August 31, 2008 4:01 PM
T_U_T
some americans horribly tortured some people, so all americans have to shut up forever and can not complain about anything other people do no matter how evil
Your point is well taken, and a pertinent criticism.
However it's not just some americans tortured and murdered some people . The subject was tolerance of barbaric practices, how could that be?
In that context 300 million taxpaying US citizens not only tolerate, but finance practices far more barbaric than described in PZ's post. So it's a lot of Americans tolerating alot of other Americans torturing and murdering a SHITLOAD of human beings.
I used the example of Guatemala where we financed the extermination of many Mayan cultures and language groups, and even with the Sudan in mind, I would challenge anyone to come up with a body count from Islamotards since 900 BC that would rival the victims of US nationalism, which is a very recent tumor.
so all americans have to shut up forever
I never said Danio should shut up, I simply remind people on this list that they need to take a good long hard look in the mirror, then post their outrage in context.
This is consistent with the message I've been preaching since Newbie.
Nationalism is stoopider and more dangerous than religion.
And religion is astonishingly stoopid.
Posted by: The Chemist | August 31, 2008 4:06 PM
Hegemonic Imperialism WIN!
To say this has nothing to do with Islam is not a NTS argument. It fundamentally has nothing to do with Islam. As in: There is no Islamic rationale behind it. It's a tribal custom, pure and simple.
It's just that everyone on these comments has no experience with the region. The absolute only thing you people understand is Pakistan=Muslims. While it is true that most Pakistanis are Muslim, that's all people here know. It would be like someone who knows nothing about America except that it has high rates of drug crime trying to explain a phenomenon based on no other knowledge or context.
This is evident from the discussion people are having about cell phones. I know people who live in the tribal regions of Pakistan. It depends on the tribal region, but many of these places do have internet access and cellphones and whatnot already. Meanwhile, in case it wasn't obvious from the article from a Pakistani newspaper, Pakistani lawmakers are trying to do something about it.
To sum: Most of you have no fucking clue what you're talking about, because you have no context, you understand nothing else but the idea that religion is bad. Most of you wouldn't be able to tell me what language these people speak without looking it up. You don't know the region's history, or its ethnic makeup, but you'll stand there and refute the idea that Islam has nothing to do with this. When Dawkins says that religion is not the cause of all evil, I get the feeling he's the only person that take that seriously.
You think that because you can find Pakistan on a map you know a hell of a lot more than the average ignoramus who can't string together more than too syllables, you are wrong.
You know what though, I'll agree with you, Islam is exactly what caused this to happen. Fine. Now based on that fundamentally wrong assertion, let's see if any course of action will arise that will bring an end to this behavior. Go ahead, run with your foolish little assumption, but when you fuck things up beyond all recognition, don't expect me to forgive you for the damage you do.
Oh, what's that? You aren't going to do anything? You're just going to sit here on the comments section of someone's blog and spout puerile moral declarations? That's a relief. You won't do any damage after all.
Posted by: T_U_T | August 31, 2008 4:16 PM
How many americans really do tolerate torture perpetrated by their own country, opposed to being just ignorant about it, or being unable to stop it ?
I would guess, that no one on this blog is actually tolerant to atrocities perpetrated by US of america, so, please, take your old tired tu quoque gambit and go troll somewhere else
Posted by: Alan Chapnman | August 31, 2008 4:37 PM
T_U_T #64: A great many Americans support using torture because they see it effectively used by Jack Bauer on 24 to save the day.
Posted by: Norman Doering | August 31, 2008 4:38 PM
The Chemist wrote:
That was me. And you're right, I have no fucking clue what I'm talking about as far cell-phones in the tribal regions and I have no context for understanding how this "tradition" could be, but I do think I understand more than the idea that religion is bad.
I also think this repression of women is bad no matter what context. What I don't understand is why the woman themselves aren't fighting it more aggressively.
So?
That was not me. Don't lump us all together into one ignorant mass -- we each have different levels of ignorance -- as do you.
I never blamed Islam - I don't know. I may not know what cell-phone and internet accessibility there is in Pakistan, but I do think I know that if you can get in there and start talking to the women, raising consciousness, and net-working them they might be fine allies and spies. Shouldn't they have less loyalty to the system that oppresses them than the men?
I'm just tossing ideas out here - I'm not claiming to know anything so I can't fuck it up until someone who should know better uses my idea. If you've got reason to criticize my idea other than to note that I don't know about cell-phone accessibility then do so.
Until then you've just missed the point.
Posted by: Adnan Y. | August 31, 2008 4:39 PM
Horrible enough that the practice takes place, for someone in the Senate to defend it? I nearly threw up.
However (and I hate statements that begin with 'however'), the notion of burials such as these as being a tribal custom are, quite rightly mentioned in the article, questionable. As is the link to Islam, being inferred (at least to me, so I could be misinterpreting, in which case I apologise) by a couple of comments here.
Traditions, customs et al are always going to be devised as a means of retaining certain social/political strengths. All it takes is someone to commit a horrific act - whether suttee, burying someone alive, or stoning - claim a context in which it can be allowed, and then after enough time it gets taken as a long-standing tradition, never mind how illogic or horrific it may be. Calling something "a tradition" in response to criticism of certain behaviours is a way of curtailing any further discussion, especially if the adherent stands to lose out. Living in Pakistan, I can't count the number of times my friends and I have had arguments with South Asian American/English equivalents of Israeli Settlers (in terms of sheer fanatical/romanticism mindsets) as to why honour killings aren't something to "take pride in, and something the West is trying to take away from us" (yes, really). At some point, the words "a tradition" have been used.
Religions are pretty much the most obvious examples. Whether it's circumcision - male and female - or sacrificing of animals (which really has no use, and needs to be banned, quite frankly), there'll always be a tradition that's been carried on for so long, that it becomes "part" of the religion. That being said, though, I do have to say that as much as Islam is flawed ( and I'm not talking in the Mark "I'm a bigot" Steyn or Christopher "Here's another cash cow" Hitchens senses of the word), it's not the culprit here. Horrible abuses have taken place in its name, no question there, but what you have here is patriarchal power being not only used to a horrible end, but also the justification of such under the flag of tradition.
Posted by: Chiroptera | August 31, 2008 4:40 PM
The Chemist, #26: This has nothing to do with even the most radical and strictest interpretations of Islam. It's a tribal custom, Islam explicitly forbids the burying alive of women and daughters as well as forced marriage.
I have always maintained that the "true" tenets of a religion are what the adherents of that religion actually say and do. If in the next couple of days important Islamic teachers and leaders will condemn these acts as un-Islamic, pointing out that these people are acting against the clear tenets of Islam, ask Muslims worldwide to do what they can to alleviate the plight of the women in this area, and ask non-Muslims not to judge Islam by what these particular people are doing.
Me, I suspect that most Islamic teachers and leaders aren't going to care all that much about these tribal customs, and that Islamis practice is, overall, at least complicit in horrendous acts of misogyny. I hope I'm wrong, though.
Posted by: Adnan Y. | August 31, 2008 4:56 PM
Norman, aggressive and pro-active measures must be undertaken that provide stable physical support to women, and guaranteed access to education, legal services, jobs, that propel them towards rightful egalitarian standing. The laws must be changed so that women regarded as equal, and not subject to whims of "ordinances." There's no disagreement there.
What I do have to disagree with is the notion of recruiting women as "allies and spies." Setting aside the obvious dangers to not only the women, but their friends and loved ones, discovery of them being spies would lead to further hostilities and distrust towards any ngos that work in sustainable developement, in particular with gender issues. Another point is that as mentioned earlier in the comments thread, America's not exactly well-loved here in Pakistan. This precedes the whole post September 11th headache, and goes back to the Afghan/Soviet/US scuffle of the 80s. Much like the US ditching the South Vietnamese soldiers to the North, the Americans pretty much ditched Afghanis and Pakistanis to the devices of proto-Taliban and Pakistani ISI types for a number of years. And keep in mind that although the marginally less psychotic Awami League has managed to gain the NWFP/FATA areas in terms of votes, you still have residual hatred for the US in that sense. Osama may be scum to most Pakistanis, to fanatics and victims of American/British missiles he's a hero. Consider what female "allies and spies" would be up against, even if America and Western nations could insure that these women and their loved ones could be taken somewhere safe (outside Asia) at a moment's notice.
I'm just sayin'.
Posted by: Adnan Y. | August 31, 2008 5:06 PM
Chiroptera (#68): I recall reading a story in a book about Islam my parents had bought for me as a kid. The story talked about how a man had buried his young daughter alive (one that loved him) out of shame of having no sons. When Muhammad had found out about this, the story went on to say that he cried out of sadness for this, as he felt that she was to have been loved more than a son, and he condemned the man strongly and refused to think of him as a Muslim.
A couple more examples:
a) Muhammad's first wife Khadija - who was a couple of decades older than him or so - was an independent merchant who had hired him as a salesman. When she saw how successful he was, she proposed to him.
b) One of the things I had to read about as a kid was how Mo was being laughed at for having no living sons. He then claimed that god/allah had said that "verily, your enemies are cut off from the root".
I'm not saying that Islam is perfect, I'm just citing a couple of examples of how it's not all "women are bad, mmmkay."
Posted by: Norman Doering | August 31, 2008 5:12 PM
Adnan Y. wrote:
Point taken, but that's true for all people who become spies. There is no spy who doesn't take that risk. And if women already take such a risk just to assert their desire to marry whom they want then being a spy would add only a little more to the risks the rebel women already take. The point is that this isn't just a bad/immoral practice the Taliban are engaging in, it's a military weakness that might bring them down if we can properly exploit it. There should be a larger pool of women willing to take that risk than you'd find in a more egalitarian system.
Of course, I guess America sucks at keeping promises and if that's true we shouldn't be as easily trusted -- our mistake.
Posted by: Chiroptera | August 31, 2008 5:24 PM
Adnan Y, #60:
I lived three years in a country that was even split between Christians and Muslims. The Muslims I knew were pretty decent folks, not much different than the Christians I knew. There were Muslims were terribly backward (the euphemism we used was "traditional") viewpoints, and some with very progressive viewpoints.
At the same time, I knew a Seventh Day Adventist who loved pork. Just because I know some Seventh Day Adventists who eat pork or shellfish or drink alcohol, I'm not going to claim that Seventh Day Adventists doctrine allows the consumption of these items. Doctrine can only be determined, in my opinion, by the actual practices of the adherents.
Just as I have little patience with the retards at worldnetdaily who cherry pick the Qur'an for verses to claim how Islam stands against the values of Western liberal democracy, so I don't have much patience with people who quote the Qur'an or the Hadith or traditional stories to claim that Islam is somehow more progressive than that attitudes of majority of its adherents.
Most Muslims live in "traditional" cultures where women tend to have low status. As such, most Muslims, including many of the ones who immigrate to the West, hold very "traditional" views of women, and use their Islamic beliefs to justify this. So it is fair to say that overall women have a lower status in Islam.
It may be that eventually the more progressive ideals of the Western Enlightenment will percolate into the nations where Islam is predominate (like, for example modern Turkey), or that Islamic women, seeing the possibilities in the examples of Western women, will be successful in their demands in being treated and viewed as equals, much like Western Christianity was, by and large, forced to accept many of the tenets of Western liberal democracy. Maybe someday it will be part of the practice of actual living Muslims to treat women as equals. If and when it comes, then, looking at the practice of actual Muslims, I will conclude that equality of women has become Muslim doctrine.
Overall, I agree that it is too simplistic to say that "this is un-Christian" or "that is un-Islamic". But I am of the opinion that how the greater part of the adherents of a belief system believe, talk, and act is what actually defines the belief system under consideration.
Posted by: John C. Randolph | August 31, 2008 5:30 PM
#7 Jason,
For one more example of the Brits showing cultural insensitivity, they took the lead in fighting the slave trade in the 1800s, over the objections of just about everybody else.
Hell, the Saudis still practice it rather blatantly, even though they nominally outlawed it in 1960. There have been a handful of cases of Saudi nationals keeping slaves in the United States over the last couple of decades.
-jcr