…and this is a 
A dystopian vision
Category: Politics
Posted on: September 30, 2008 2:43 PM, by PZ Myers
Another interesting blog that has been around for some time is Charles Stross's — you ought to check it out, and the comments are often informative too. One in particular was brought to my attention — it's a comment made in response to another fellow, Dan, who is something of an American triumphalist, seeing us spiraling upward, ever upward, into glory and a bold Star Trekian future of wealth and prosperity and technology. Maclaren wrote an antidote, which I include below. I don't agree with it entirely — we aren't quite as bad off as it says right now, although I can see his word-portrait as a picture of America 5 years from now, easily, and I don't see anyone trying very hard to put the brakes on our descent into madness.
Sometimes Stross's blog is very depressing, too.
Dan's post appears to have leaked through from an alternate universe where life in the United States of Amnesia is a wonderful paradise. However, I happen to live inside that madhouse, and I can assure you that, no, we are not winning in Iraq, Americans are not doing well financially (unless you're talking about the top 1% of the economic pyramid in America), and virtually everything in America has drastically degenerated to the point of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, or pretty nearly.
Just to hit a few high points: some 30% of Americans currently graduate college with only the most rudimentary reading and writing skills and elementary math skills, as compared to about 15% who graduate high school with similar skills deficits in Europe. Meanwhile, a recent study predicts that most elementary schools in California will fail to meet basic proficiency requirements by 2014. This means skills like reciting the ABCs or the multiplication table. Unless you've read those stats, it's impossible to believe Harlan Ellison's recent rant wasn't some sort of demented satire, when he described the Emperor's New Clothes to uncomprehending UCLA students who had nary a ghost of a clue what the reference meant. It sounds like something out The Onion. But it's true. This is the level to which America has sunk.
More than half of all U.S. hospitals are now technically insolvent. Increasingly, even Americans who do have health insurance can't get access to basic health care. America boasts the second highest newborn death rate in the developed world, and the highest child malnutrtion rate and child poverty rate in the developed world. America currently lags ridiculously far in infrastructure and technology, with our broadband speeds and adoption rates far behind those of Europe and Asia. Around half of Americans, most in rural areas, as still stuck on 56K dialup. Meanwhile, Japan just announced a nationwide rollout of 1 Gbps fiber-to-the-home for $54. In America, consumers find themselves forced to pay typical $80 to $100 per month for 3 Mbps ADSL or cable internet, though apparently the recent rollout of DOCSIS3 cable modems has now allowed 150 Mbps service in some American test markets at a cost of $150 per month.
America's physical infrastructure is falling apart, with bridges collapsing, water mains crumbling, sewage lines disintegrating, and U.S. highways becoming unnavigable due to potholes and sinkholes.
The bill of rights has effectively been erased in America. Innocent citizens are now routinely beaten, tased, handcuffed and pepper-sprayed for crazy reasons, like trying to cash a legitimate check at the bank, or refusing to show I.D. to a police officer without being suspected of committing a crime. If an American actually takes it upon hi/rself to "cause trouble," (say, by engaging in a peaceful demonstration for worker rights)...why, then the savage fury of police retaliation becomes indescribable. The gloves come off at that point. People get beaten to a pulp, tear-gassed, brutalized with truncheons en masse.
American police now routinely tase grade school children. Adults get brutalized by police as matter of standard operating procedure, tortured with tasers long after they've been handcuffed and pepper-sprayed and rendered helpless; tasing and pepper-sprayed is now routinely used by American police as torture to seal the deal after handcuffing and arrest, a reminder that you don't try to stand up against the State. It's so common now that no one even comments on it. Americans now accept this kind of routine police savagery against people who are already handcuffed and defenseless and in many cases have committed no crime, just the way that Soviet citizens came to accept without comment KGB head-bashing against innocent bystanders suspected of having made a subservive remark against the State.
Meanwhile, American funding for basic scientific research continues to plummet. Tent cities are sprouting up across America. Out-of-control culture war threatens to erupt into full-scale civil violence...even as a record 258 lavish parties by financial lobbyists have been thrown for senators and congressmen voting for the bailout this yeat. And CEOs of failed banks get $20 million golden parachutes for 17 days' work.
No doubt in the happy shiny alternate universe Dan occupies, cheerful American zip around on jet packs while popping food pills and enjoying their flying cars. Out here in the real world, the U.S. mint has suspended sale of gold coins "due to exccessive demand," America is falling apart, and it looks like a Mad Max-style civil war isn't far off.
Don't get too smug over in Europe, though. Hypo Real Estate mortgage bank in Germany is close to bankruptcy, and the Bradford & Bingley bank in England, that country's biggest mortgage lender, has now been nationalized due to uncontrollable mortgage losses. Barclay's bank is currently leveraged at a ratio of 50:1 and if it goes, its outstanding derivative liabilities are equal to the entire GDP of Great Britain. Meanwhile, the German state banking system teeters on the edge of insolvency and may have to be bailed out by the German government. Then, of course, we get the financial collapse rippling outward across asia with the Little Tigers, Japan, and finally the really big dominos fall, the state owned banks in China. If that happens, it's Raquel Welch in a fur bikini and One Million Years B.C. redux.
You can argue with some of the details, and it's bleaker than might be warranted right now, but there are no roadblocks preventing this future from coming to pass…frighteningly soon.
Politics
Comments
Posted by: Patrick Quigley | September 30, 2008 2:53 PM
Of course things are going downhill now, but that's just because the ruling party has been occupied with much more important things like preventing gays from marrying the people they love. Once that problem is remedied they'll move on to those minor issues.
Posted by: SC | September 30, 2008 2:55 PM
Tonight's episode of the PBS show P.O.V., "Critical Condition," chronicles the lives of four people in the US who don't have health insurance.
Posted by: Mane | September 30, 2008 2:58 PM
Bleak yes, but Americans need to wake up and stop pretending this isn't happening.
Posted by: Richard Harris | September 30, 2008 2:58 PM
Yes. And which country is going to fill the vacuum? China?
A China that hasn't, unlike the West, gradually evolved a democracy! But that may not be so bad. The world could probably do with a more communitarian social organization. The free market & global warming do seem to go together.
Posted by: Missus Gumby | September 30, 2008 2:59 PM
Meanwhile, back in the real world, the reality for the vast majority is nowhere near as bad as painted above. But I do agree the roads in the US are in an atrocious condition, at least compared to where I live (the UK). And to be honest, the roads in the UK are not all that wonderful either.
Missus Gumby
Posted by: mikespeir | September 30, 2008 3:05 PM
Frankly, I see Dan and MaClaren as "over-the-top." No, this isn't a paradise or anything close to it. I doubt any human society ever will be. Right now it looks like things are getting worse. But they've done that before--and then gotten better again. I don't know they will yet again, but I wouldn't bet against it.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | September 30, 2008 3:06 PM
Most, but not all of it, is seriously exaggerated.
What's scary is that little is being done, or is seriously intended, to address the serious problems (by either party, in fact) existing and getting worse.
Oddly, the US has always struggled along with some really very well educated people, and a whole lot of very badly educated people, and done fairly well at it (though we know the problems it causes, like recurring attempts to teach creationism, and an inherent high mismatch between the knowledgeable and the rest). So while that's a chronic problem, it's not a new worry.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: alchemist | September 30, 2008 3:08 PM
Have you seen Idiocracy yet? It's a social satire (by the same Director as Office Space) on a world that breeds the stupid faster than the smart. Acting intelligent is considered rude, and the best movie in America is two hours of farting. Oh, I see someone already mentioned Will Farrell...
Posted by: Cliff Hendroval | September 30, 2008 3:15 PM
I don't know, P.Z. - I'm 50 years old, and ever since I can remember I've been living with people telling me that doom is just around the corner. Nuclear war, nuclear winter, overpopulation-driven famine, exotic diseases, air pollution, water pollution, societal breakdown, economic ruin - I've heard it all.
I'm not arguing for complacency. There are many problems that must be dealt with, particularly in regard to investing in education and infrastructure. But claiming we're this close to a holy war because a few Christianist wackos want to take over South Carolina is stretching credibility beyond recognition.
Posted by: magetoo | September 30, 2008 3:21 PM
Seems a little out of place to mention broadband speeds in the middle of that list of death and destruction.
Then again, that means I get to make a point on the relative merits of New Zealand versus Sweden.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | September 30, 2008 3:28 PM
Richard Harris@4,
Unfortunately what you now have in China is, roughly speaking, one-party-state capitalism; and a rapidly rising output of greenhouse gases, principally from coal-fired power-stations, of which they are building one a week. There are certainly some officials aware of the seriousness of this and other environmental problems, but they can do little against the drive of the corrupt party elite and the middle classes to get rich. They are facing more immediate environmental problems than global warming, in the form of air and water pollution, soil erosion, and a dearth of good agricultural land. We've seen in the last few years that China is prone to outbreaks of disease (SARS, bird flu), and contamination of food and other products. As global warming intensifies, they will be in dire straits because of the melting of high-altitude glaciers and snow fields, which modulate the flow of the Yangtze and other rivers.
What will happen to China's economic boom if there's a serious slump in the USA and Europe I'm not sure - it depends whether they yet have sufficient domestic demand to cope with a big fall in exports. I suspect not. If I'm right, they would then find it hard to import all the oil and food they need.
So, one way and another, not likely to succeed the USA as "number one", nor to curb their own greenhouse gas emissions without a lot of technical help, and pressure, from outside.
Posted by: moother | September 30, 2008 3:28 PM
"just the way that Soviet citizens came to accept without comment KGB head-bashing against innocent bystanders"
all this sounds like what holland is becomming.
of course, the impudent will deny it but if the netherlands, the age old bastion of emancipation, is also going the same way as the US of A then the world has plenty to be worried about.
Posted by: York | September 30, 2008 3:36 PM
@Richard Harris #4:
"A China that hasn't, unlike the West, gradually evolved a democracy! But that may not be so bad. The world could probably do with a more communitarian social organization. The free market & global warming do seem to go together."
Right. Exactly what we need, a dictatorship. Enlightened leaders take the heavy burden of thinking for yourself off your shoulders and solve all your problems. Like global warming, as the chinese so admirably demonstrate.
Ah, wait, they don't. They pollute like there's no tomorrow. But at least they promote a communitarian lifestyle, so that's allright, I guess.
Posted by: SC | September 30, 2008 3:36 PM
That doesn't work.
Posted by: Joe Schmoe | September 30, 2008 3:37 PM
I did like how he mentioned (though not until the end) how things are bad everywhere, not just in the United States. Do I think that soon we'll all have to square off with Blaster in the Thuderdome? Of course not (though that would be so awesome!).
People need to get their heads out of the sand and realize that the times, they are a-changin'. I mean, it's not like the world was such a peachy place in the past. I say, be proud of the opportunity to take part in a unique period in history. If things get really bad, I can just become a Blade Runner. Problem solved.
Posted by: Jadehawk | September 30, 2008 3:41 PM
Cliff Hendoval, your list includes things that were perfectly valid concerns; some, like the nuclear destruction, were exaggerated for population control (the same way we have the if X happens, the terrorists win" now); overpopulation-driven famines are the root from which most conflicts in Africa have erupted; air and water pollution have become less threatening only because of smart (yes, once every blue moon that happens) government action; the same for acid rain and the ozone hole.
this is another such crisis. it needs to be taken very seriously without freaking the population out to the point of mental paralysis,but it needs to be dealt with, and smartly, or we're all screwed.
Posted by: Russell | September 30, 2008 3:47 PM
Looks like a scene from Atlas Shrugged, doesnt it. Hopefully there is a John Galt out there somewhere.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | September 30, 2008 3:47 PM
Cliff Hendroval@9,
Actually you do look to me to be arguing for complacency. I'm 54, and I haven't died yet. Should I conclude that I'm immortal?
More seriously, we have had at least three narrow escapes from nuclear war (the Cuban missile crisis, and two in 1983); and at least one from imminent environmental catastrophe (destruction of the ozone layer - and just be glad they didn't happen to use bromofluorocarbons instead of chlorofluorocarbons in fridges). Most experts consider that "dangerous climate change" begins at 2 degrees C above preindustrial levels, and that even if we take the most stringent measures feasible, we are likely to exceed that. Currently, greenhouse gas emissions are still increasing, fast. You might not have noticed, but there were food-price riots in a number of large cities this year, and world grain stocks are lower than for decades. And I'm sure you've noticed a certain amount of brouhaha in the financial sector recently, as well as yo-yoing commodity prices.
I recdently had reason to reread the 1972 study "Limits to Growth", often quoted as predicting imminent disaster and having been proved wrong. On the whole, it holds up surprisingly well, given the crudity of the model and some of the assumptions; it predicts serious problems starting around now, if serious action to reduce resource use and pollution was not taken. It wasn't.
Posted by: Mariana | September 30, 2008 3:48 PM
Ever since I joined the anti-theism comm on LJ, started reading this blog and others, getting all these news about the crazy things that are happening in the US and Europe, I've been having this impression that this is like a "serpent's egg" era. Maybe I'm just impressionable?
And from a distance things always look scarier - I'm sure the idea people abroad get of my city (Rio) is much worse than the day-to-day reality of living here.
But it does look to me that the religious groups are getting more power and things are getting very, very dangerous - the recent news from the US, Holland and the UK are especially scary.
So, I don't know, am I being panicky or is this really a "be afraid, be very afraid" situation? Or somewhere in the middle? Idk, idk...
Posted by: Greg | September 30, 2008 3:49 PM
Another good expose of what it's like for Americans is the episode of 30 Days called "Minimum Wage." Morgan Spurlock and his fiance attempt to live for 30 days with minimum wage jobs. You can stream it on-demand from hulu.com. The episode deals with the issue of poverty, but more than that, they have no insurance and each have a medical problem during their 30 days that bankrupts them.
Posted by: Rey Fox | September 30, 2008 3:55 PM
"Seems a little out of place to mention broadband speeds in the middle of that list of death and destruction."
I thought that was a little odd, too. I may just be a simple hyperchicken from a backwoods galaxy, but I have 1.5 Mbps cable internet, and I think it's pretty fast. It's not exactly a quality of life issue to be able to get porn instantly.
"Do I think that soon we'll all have to square off with Blaster in the Thuderdome? Of course not (though that would be so awesome!)."
Not as awesome as Raquel Welch in a fur bikini. I think this guy may be undercutting his point a bit with that allusion.
Perhaps I'm ignoring the gravity of the situation, but I don't really want to be the guy who can rattle off a hundred talking points on how bad everything is in America right now, complete with links, either. Does this make me a bad person?
Posted by: frog | September 30, 2008 3:56 PM
If we look at the apocalyptic list, it becomes obvious to me that what we are seeing is not something new, but a shift in the victims. Police brutality, crappy education, failing infrastructure, repressive political tactics - all these things have been well known through out US history.
What has changed? Before, the victims were brown and black. What Stross is perfectly well describing is any minority community throughout US history. But now everyone is panicing because we have equality. Now, the same crappy traditional treatment of the majority of Americans is almost universal! Everyone below the 80% income gets crappy schools, deteriorating roads, police abuse. Everyone is being spied on, not just minority community leaders.
American 2008: We're all Black now.
Posted by: frog | September 30, 2008 4:01 PM
NG: More seriously, we have had at least three narrow escapes from nuclear war (the Cuban missile crisis, and two in 1983)
You're forgetting the close call in '96, when Yeltsin mistook a Norwegian rocket test as a nuclear attack and was within 1 minute of launching a counter-strike against the West.
Man, have we been lucky.
Posted by: David D.G. | September 30, 2008 4:01 PM
Raquel Welch in a fur bikini? With all the rest of that apocalyptic potential, it's nice to know there's an upside.
;^D
~David D.G.
Posted by: Lord Zero | September 30, 2008 4:01 PM
Mmm, seems fearsome, but anyway im not "the sky
is falling" type. Every age had his own problems, and
people had to solve them for themselves.
Ill do my best as scientist, cant do much more anyway.
Posted by: Jerome | September 30, 2008 4:02 PM
Cover your eyes children, it's another clever biologist seeking legitimacy.
It's depressing to see such a living cliché, but the boomers are providing platoons for our recreation.
Let's see, guy with above average memory reaches adolescence and realizes that his brain can't see all the patterns. Daddy . . .dissonance. . .hurting,. . .must. . .resolve. Rumpelstiltskin spins his pain into overdeveloped sarcasm and satire of all things immeasurable. Clever.
But wait, there's more. The ignorant beast won't yield. Voltaire, I call upon you - enlightenment powers activate. What?! Midlife? No! Creativity behind me (see Kurt Vonnegut). I AM important. People have always said so. Quickly, more hyperbole. Pay attention, my thoughts are important! Fade. Shriek. Fade. Out.
PZ. Really? This is going to be it? You're really going to go this entire journey and do it this way? I am genuinely, genuinely sad to hear it.
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 30, 2008 4:05 PM
Does this make me a bad person?
hardly.
It means, like most of us, you would rather not incapacitate yourself with some of the horrors of modern reality.
Frankly, I'm quite sure that the author of that list tends not to consciously consider each and every point during an average day, either.
I can't imagine anyone being able to deal with that for very long.
There are reasons we utilize psychological defense mechanisms, and they aren't always bad.
sometimes, denial simply works to enable us to function. Without being able to function productively, how would one actually be able to apply oneself to actually assisting in the repair of many of these problems?
being in a catatonic state of fear when faced with such a laundry list of things to be dealt with isn't exactly productive.
Posted by: frog | September 30, 2008 4:06 PM
Jerome: Talk about a cliche!
Boring and pointless.
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 30, 2008 4:10 PM
it's another clever biologist seeking legitimacy.
I see...
so this is peculiar to biologists?
share with us your observations of all the biologists who employ such strategies to deal with their "mid-life crises", eh?
or are you projecting?
Posted by: E.V. | September 30, 2008 4:10 PM
Jerome:
Can you be more obscure? Was there a point to your
clevercolloquial but incoherent post?(I'm betting this is an alias for one of or regular trolls)
Posted by: E.V. | September 30, 2008 4:13 PM
Guess The Troll Game
Can you readers guess Jerome's true identity from the list of banished trolls?
Posted by: E.V. | September 30, 2008 4:18 PM
I'll give you a few hints: rambling, smug, likes to call PZ by his given name...
Posted by: Nick Gotts | September 30, 2008 4:18 PM
frog@23,
I hadn't heard about that one! Incidentally, seems to have been January 25, 1995. Of course, there may be any number we haven't heard about.
Posted by: DrFish | September 30, 2008 4:23 PM
That is depressing, and I only have comments on one aspect. Having grown up in a suburban "Utopia", my hometown was once on 60 Minutes as the most racist town in America for having a "special" police unit that turned away African-American drivers, I grew up with a very good impression of the police, which I only came in contact with when I needed help (car accident) or when I was in the wrong (youthful indiscretion with fireworks...in September). Since moving to the big city, however, I have become more cautious, as I see that the job of the beat cop seems to be as much about manufacturing small-scale arrests as keeping the general peace (has any search ever really been random?). The tazer is a wonderful thing in that it is non-lethal and can subdue people who would have a real chance at inflicting harm on officers. Unfortunately, it seems to me that tazers are too often used to simply subdue in such a way that reinforces police authority over everyone in any situation, as opposed to a single unpredictable and out-of-control subject. Like the television for parents of small children, tazers have become a convenient go-to solution for police who are uninterested or perhaps untrained in the arts of conversation, persuasion, and critical thinking that make truly effective officers stand out as pillars of the community.
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 30, 2008 4:23 PM
Can you readers guess Jerome's true identity from the list of banished trolls?
oooh, that's a toughie, given that this one might actually not be on the banned list yet.
hmm.
It would have to be somebody fairly recent, as most of the older trolls would have lost interest by now...
moderately psychologically impaired, but has read at least a few things...
reference to "boomers" suggest someone from that era, so I'm guessing at least 45 years old, probably older...
says: "genuinely sad to hear it", meaning of course the exact opposite (schadenfreude)...
If I only get one guess, from the dungeon, I'm gonna go with..
Planet Killer.
the post is too nutty for Joe Blow, has no reference to NDE's, so it ain't Kenny, and isn't nutty ENOUGH for it to be one of Mabus'.
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | September 30, 2008 4:33 PM
More than a little bit of hyperbole on both sides of that discussion. From my perspective, the reality lies somewhere in the middle, as is more often the case then not.
However, definitely a good debate, and food for thought. In a worst case scenario, things could potentially be as bad as Maclaren proposes. But I'll continue to hold out hope for improvement, and do my part to ensure it where I can.
Naive? Perhaps... but I'd rather be a naive part of the solution than a miserable do-nothing complainer.
Posted by: E.V. | September 30, 2008 4:34 PM
Ichthyic:
No, this one is definitely a repeat offender. & he loves him some PZ. *mmmmm mmmmm* He's just lookin' for PZ's affirmation.
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | September 30, 2008 4:36 PM
Hmmm... that smacks an awful lot of a false dichotomy... it was not intended as such. I'm not trying to imply that either of the posters falls into either description. I probably could have worded that better. Apologies.
Posted by: Richard Harris | September 30, 2008 4:38 PM
York @ # 13, I wasn't proposing a dictatorship, but maybe some degree of dictatorship is unavoidable?
Our western democracies are based upon ethics that privilege the individual over society to what I think has become an unhealthy extent.
We do have a dictatorship of sorts anyway, as far as I'm concerned. It's run by marketers to make money for business, not to meet human needs & aspirations. Of course, it appears to be to meet human needs, but they've been corrupted. It goes back to Edward Bernays (nephew of Freud).
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | September 30, 2008 4:40 PM
@ E.V.
Hmmm... Some Dude perhaps?
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 30, 2008 4:40 PM
No, this one is definitely a repeat offender. & he loves him some PZ. *mmmmm mmmmm* He's just lookin' for PZ's affirmation.
ah.
speaking of denial, I had effectively employed that regarding this poster until you brought that up.
damn you!
:P
since I missed. I'm not going to mention the name.
Posted by: Greg R. | September 30, 2008 4:42 PM
Kind of reminds me of this:
http://www.thedailyshow.com/video/index.jhtml?videoId=185196&title=President-Bush%27s-Legacy
Posted by: Jerome | September 30, 2008 4:45 PM
Hey, neat. The devotees came rushing out to help defend the fortress. Are you guys all in your dungeons and dragons outfits? Are the nicknames ironic or descriptive?
Sorry, frog(?), I wasn't able to gather from the surrounding posts that making a point was the point. It all seems like a perpetual digression from the initial catechism. In the future I'll try to avoid something or other.
Posted by: Alan Chapman | September 30, 2008 4:47 PM
People get the government they deserve. It's plainly obvious that the current state of affairs in government perfectly reflects the inclinations of those who support it.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | September 30, 2008 4:49 PM
Jerome -> killfile. I suggest making this general. This troll has nothing to say, and no amusement value.
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | September 30, 2008 4:49 PM
Dammit... I just slipped on Jerome's verbal diarrhea.
"Ohh... it's everywhere... it's in my raccoon wound"...
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 30, 2008 4:49 PM
In the future I'll try to avoid something or other.
just to be on the safe side, best you not speak.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | September 30, 2008 4:51 PM
People get the government they deserve. - Alan Chapman
What a mind-bogglingly stupid remark. Oh, I see, it's from a "libertarian".
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 30, 2008 4:53 PM
"Ohh... it's everywhere... it's in my raccoon wound"...
peter, is that you?
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | September 30, 2008 4:57 PM
hehehhehehhhehehhehheheheh
Posted by: JStein | September 30, 2008 4:59 PM
Ummm... this seems a little cynical to me.
Is the country headed in the wrong direction? Absolutely.
Are we exercising a retarded foreign policy and principle-free economic and domestic policy? Pretty much.
I think the notion that the country is falling apart, though, is a bit too apocalyptic for me.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | September 30, 2008 5:01 PM
So Idiocracy is a documentary about the type of North America Jerome and his vapid cronies have ushered in? We already live there.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | September 30, 2008 5:06 PM
Richard Harris,
The problem underlying over-emphasis on the individual at the expense of society isn't democracy, but capitalism. You can see that plainly from the burblings of the "libertarians" who comment here: they worship capitalism, but oppose democracy: they think no government or other collective entity has any right to tax them or limit their activities, as long as these do not involve direct violence or fraud. So if they want to use more than their share of resources, or emit more than their share of the total pollution the environment can stand, it's "immoral" to try and stop them. Democracy in itself won't solve our problems, but dictatorship will pretty much guarantee they can't be solved: any dictator relies on an elite whose activities are free from scrutiny and control other than by the dictator themselves; and those in it will generally be the most selfish, brutal and short-termist in the society - because it is these attributes which are selected for. Dictatorships also systematically suffer from the problem that no-one will tell the dictator uncomfortable truths; the dictator becomes more and more disconnected from reality, and also increasingly paranoid, as they sense they are being lied to.
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 30, 2008 5:07 PM
hehehhehehhhehehhehheheheh
Peter: Mr. Weed, distinguished members of the board, may I present this year's hottest toy...Mr. Zucchini Head. He's got stupid cool hip-hop style with his little hat and his Doc Martens.
Mr. Weed: Thank you, Peter, that's enough.
Peter: Wait, wait, wait. This is the best part! He dances!
Man 1: I've seen enough.
Man 2: Inappropriate.
Man 3: I haven't had sex in four years.
Mr. Weed: Gentlemen, I apologize for wasting your time. Peter is an adequate assembly-line worker but you'll be happy to know our company does not pay him to think. [Laughing]
Peter: [Nervous laughter]
Mr. Weed: I'll take this. No calls.
Posted by: Ichthyic | September 30, 2008 5:08 PM
So Idiocracy is a documentary
yes.
yes it is.
Posted by: JJR | September 30, 2008 5:09 PM
"If you want a vision of the future, imagine a boot stamping on a human face, forever."
--George Orwell.
Peter MacLaren (if that's who the reply commentator is--and the writing styles are at least similar if not) is pretty awesome. He has written lots of good books on critical pedagogy a la Paulo Freire, etc.
The old doomsayers weren't wrong--we were always skating on the edge of nuclear destruction, and beat the odds. In fact, we still are. Russia's early warning system continues to degrade, and with the actions in Georgia of late, and the "missile defense shield" issue in Poland, things could get more intense than they already are.
Go back and pick up an encyclopedia set from the late 1970s and look up the article on petroleum and look for discussions of Hubbert's peak and their projections for the future past 2000 and then look around you. I did. Disturbs the hell out of me.
Posted by: E.V. | September 30, 2008 5:12 PM
More Clues: Alternatively pompous and abusive, he loves to belittle and then play the innocent. Childish.... prone to be disingenuous... thinks he's the smartest person in any room....
Posted by: Darth Wader | September 30, 2008 5:12 PM
History is always waxing and waning between enlightenments and dark ages, but its usually two steps forward and one step back.
Posted by: Jadehawk | September 30, 2008 5:17 PM
I just re-read the reply, and it occurs to me that the broadband rant is more related to technology development of something that CAME from America. it's just an excellent example of America falling behind in the thing it used be one of best at: technology and innovation.
Posted by: Alan Chapman | September 30, 2008 5:18 PM
#48 Nick, I'm not a libertarian, and if you want to talk about stupid remarks then start with your childish outburst the other day; this coming from somebody who can't grasp even basic economic fundamentals. You seem like a bitter underachiever with the maturity of a twelve year-old who has an axe to grind with the world. Maybe you should go watch TV or something so the grown-ups can talk.
Posted by: Lance | September 30, 2008 5:24 PM
Sounds like some one needs to spend a little time in any number of foreign cities; Addis Ababa, Cairo, Istanbul, Jakarta. I love visiting these places but the contrast with any city in the US is glaring and sobering.
Even places like Amsterdam, Paris, Naples and Vienna, which are fantastic cites, can wear on you if you are used to New York or Chicago.
A little travelling sharpens one's appreciation for the good ol' USA, especially a trip to Africa or Latin America.
Doubtless some nit-wit will proclaim me an "ugly American" or a "triumphalist", but the truth is we are privileged to live in the USA. There are literally millions of people that would do almost anything to be US citizens. I personally know many people who have literally spent years and given everything to get here, sometimes at great physical risk.
I don't share Dan's utopian vision of the USA but I wouldn't bet that America will likely fulfill the dystopian vision of MacLaren anytime soon either.
Mostly sounded like whining to me. Of course that is his right and perhaps the national past time behind baseball.
Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist | September 30, 2008 5:25 PM
I followed most of his links, and I must say that if they are any indication then the blogoshpere is imploding, not the real world. This is the sort of "research" I remember college freshmen and high schoolers doing. "Duh, I found it in the internetz, so it must be true."
Granted, that definitely reflects a certain scary level of stupidity, but just because some people "believe" or "think" everything is going down the crapper shouldn't give us reason to think they somehow possess knowledge that we don't.
Anyway we have four more years until 2012 when the Mayan calender (supposedly) projects the end of the world. Or so I am told . . . by somebody who read it on the internetz.
In the words of that great mind, Alfred E. Neuman: "What me worry?"
Posted by: bernard quatermass | September 30, 2008 5:27 PM
"Are you guys all in your dungeons and dragons outfits?"
Oooo, zinnggg. I am slain.
Please point me in the direction of that peerless blog, Jerome's Happy Web 2.0 FantasyLand of Perpetual But Confusing and Poorly-Written Snark, so that I too may learn and become a Better Person™
Posted by: E.V. | September 30, 2008 5:28 PM
Nick:
I think the statement was intended as ironic. I feel the Republicans deserve McCain and Palin just as they deserve George Bush (both, actually). As for the toxic fallout from these misguided tools, I'm sure the people who vote against them don't deserve the collateral damage these politicians cause, but nothing in life is fair.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | September 30, 2008 5:28 PM
Alan,
You're not a "libertarian"? You just happen to make all the same ludicrous claims as them, and have the same propensity to ignore evidence and argument?
Posted by: Nix | September 30, 2008 5:28 PM
Charlie? Depressing?
Charlie's not depressing. Charlie's *accurate*.
(If you want depressing, you need to read his short story A Colder War, which shows, more than anything else, why soc.history.what-if should be disbanded as a danger to the morale of the human race.)
(Warning: contains horrors customarily shown as squidlike.)
(Actually, read it even if you don't want depressing. It's brilliant. And classified SECRET INDIGO MARCH SNIPE.)
Posted by: Quiet Desperation | September 30, 2008 5:31 PM
America has drastically degenerated to the point of Mad Max Beyond Thunderdome, or pretty nearly.
That's as far as I got. Didn't seem worthwhile to read any further.
Actually, I wish it was like that because I have an annoying neighbor I'd like to square off with in Thunderdome. She's 82 and uses a walker. I'm pretty sure I could take her.
Hopefully there is a John Galt out there somewhere.
I've looked for the real Galt's Gulch for a long time. It either isn't there, or I don't measure up despite my engineering kung-fu being utterly awesome to the point of demigodhood.
Posted by: Patricia | September 30, 2008 5:32 PM
Would a slutty remark help?
Posted by: raven | September 30, 2008 5:33 PM
All civilizations fall eventually. It is guaranteed that the US civilization will also fall.
This isn't hard to understand. In my lifetime the British and Soviet empires both went down.
Toynbee found that 18 of 22 previous civilizations rotted from within. As to when we screw things up enough, who knows? I was hoping it would hang together for my lifetime but am less optimistic.
Bush really did some serious damage, squandering our worldwide good will and reputation, our freedoms, and our treasury for nothing much to show for it. And yet Zombie McBush and his brain dead, crazy mom VP are running close to Obama.
It almost looks like a death wish or something. Whatever.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | September 30, 2008 5:34 PM
E.V.,
I see no indication Alan Chapman's remark was intended as ironical. It fits well with what I've seen of his politics before.
Posted by: The Cheerful Nihilist | September 30, 2008 5:38 PM
EV -
Trolling for . . .Eric Atkinson?
Patricia, slutty remarks are more often than not helpful.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | September 30, 2008 5:38 PM
E.V.,
Take a look at Chapman's contributions to "The McCain Record on the Environment".
Posted by: DiscoveredJoys | September 30, 2008 5:41 PM
The Government get the people they deserve. Much better fit with reality.
Also, good policies are inextricably mixed up with the bad policies, and randomly divided between any parties capable of winning power.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | September 30, 2008 5:42 PM
The Cheerful Nihilist@71,
Seconded!
Posted by: Patricia | September 30, 2008 5:45 PM
Nick with a childish outburst...*pfft* There went the ginger ale!
Posted by: Alan Chapman | September 30, 2008 5:46 PM
#53 The problem underlying over-emphasis on the individual at the expense of society isn't democracy, but capitalism.
No, Nick. Society is an abstraction. You have to talk about costs imposed on individuals because only individuals exist. Resorting to ambiguous collectives is sophistry. The use of "we" "the people" "society" simply diverts attention away from the fact that you're really talking about yourself.
So if they want to use more than their share of resources, or emit more than their share of the total pollution the environment can stand, it's "immoral" to try and stop them.
No, Nick. This is a strawman, and again reveals your complete ignorance of economics.
It's hilarious the way you and others rampage daily against the free-market while taking advantage of every benefit it has to offer like the computer, software, and infrastructure which was designed, built, and made affordable by selfish, greedy individuals pursuing their own interests. Somehow the irony is lost on you.
Posted by: Jadehawk | September 30, 2008 5:46 PM
"Amsterdam, Paris, Naples and Vienna"
I'll take 3 of those over any U.S. city (well, with the exception of Minneapolis potentially; but only if i can get healthcare from somewhere), and I can't say anything about Naples since I've never been there. I find life a lot less precarious in France, Austria or the Netherlands than my life here in the U.S.
And of course life in the U.S. is of the privileged kind, it just also happens to be of the unsustainable kind. collapse of current western lifestyle is inevitable; i'm merely hoping for a soft landing. (also, I agree with Raven in #69)
Posted by: bernard quatermass | September 30, 2008 5:50 PM
"A little travelling sharpens one's appreciation for the good ol' USA, especially a trip to Africa or Latin America."
I don't know. I was in Oaxaca City almost exactly a year ago, and I had little desire to return to the States. Perhaps that would have changed had I spent more time there.
Posted by: Jadehawk | September 30, 2008 5:52 PM
Alan, stop rambling. most of the things we enjoy are the results of a regulated marketplace, (combined with shameless robbery of the southern hemisphere, but that's a separate topic); as opposed to a free-market economy where power accumulates strictly within top tiers of corporations, and a planned economy where the power is concentrated within the government. balance the two properly, and we get a stable economy that doesn't devour its children. the failure to balance government regulation and corporate power properly is what we have now.
Posted by: MKandefer | September 30, 2008 5:53 PM
I wish people out to make a point would actually follow academic standards, especially when arguing against the failure of our instructional facilities. For example:
"American police now routinely tase grade school children."
If this is "routine" then there should be multiple sources, not one that doesn't even mention that this is standard policy. The article does claim that we'll see more of this, but it is mere speculation.
I do think that the actions of some police officers when it comes to resorting to non-lethal weaponry are problems, but I do not think it is rampant throughout the