…and this is a 
Four-way stops must be outlawed in Minnesota
Category: Local • Weirdness
Posted on: October 5, 2008 3:09 PM, by PZ Myers
They just don't work. Maybe you've heard of "Minnesota nice", this strange passive-aggressive attitude around here that compels everyone to compete at being the most polite and deferential…and it completely defeats the function of the 4-way stop at an intersection. The rule is simple—whoever first comes to a complete stop gets to be the first to proceed through the intersection—but real Minnesotans can't grasp it. It's nice to let someone go through first, so you'll sometimes run into these situations where two cars are parked at the crossroads, with each driver waving for the other to go ahead, and they just sit there. Then they'll both edge forward, stop abruptly as they notice the other fellow trying to advance, and the gesticulating commences again.
I just made a trip to the grocery store when I came upon two cars stopped, one to the left and the other to the right, their drivers flapping their arms madly and not going anywhere. My arrival seems to have made the situation worse, because they added me to their pattern of waving. Come on, I'm last at the intersection, I'm supposed to be last to proceed! It's easy!
Anyway, I'm from Washington. I gave them 15 or 20 seconds, then said screw it, and went ahead.
Comments
Posted by: Mike the Englishman | October 5, 2008 3:25 PM
Ha! Minnesota nice has nothing on the passive-aggressive stuff that the English come up with. We invented that shit.
Posted by: Robert | October 5, 2008 3:28 PM
Ever heard of roundabouts? They work just fine.
Posted by: Matt7895 | October 5, 2008 3:29 PM
You betcha.
Posted by: mr-zero | October 5, 2008 3:32 PM
We have the same problem near me where there is a mini round about, basically a circle of paint in the middle of a cross roads. I must admit I'm usually first to go.
Z
Posted by: Sili | October 5, 2008 3:35 PM
Damn. I find it annoying enough on foot!
I'd be driven mad if I had to do it in car. (Actually I'd most likely be driven dead considering how bad I am at just riding a bike.)
Posted by: Jadehawk | October 5, 2008 3:35 PM
oh yeah, I just got stuck in that situation yesterday. unfortunately I was on a bicycle (which throws in an extra layer of confusion), so I didn't dare go first with 3 SUV's standing there
Posted by: Midnight Rambler | October 5, 2008 3:35 PM
Ah, so you're one of those evil Washington elitist insiders? I woulda figgered.
Posted by: BMS | October 5, 2008 3:36 PM
And then, once someone finally does manage to get through the intersection, remaining drivers can't seem to grasp the "yield to the right" concept.
Posted by: woozy | October 5, 2008 3:37 PM
Ooh, god I hate that! The only accident I ever had on a bicycle was when I was merging from a narrow side into a busy, and *fast* moving thouroughfare on the *left*hand side of traffic. A concerned car (thousands of pounds and capable of speeds up to 45 mph on surface streets) was trying to be *nice* and kept slowing down to let me and my bicycle (200 pounds, 195 of it human flesh, capible of going 20 mph with great effort and extreme discomfort-- I've never been in particularly good shape) in. I slowed down to indicate I really didn't want to cut in front and have a massive car on my bumber going a speed I can't maintain and have no right to impede. The car slowed down further to be *nice*. I slowed down further and toppled to the ground and bruised my hip and elbow and ankle. "Oh, are you alright?" said the motorist all concerned and doe-eyed.
Posted by: Russell Miller | October 5, 2008 3:39 PM
Hee. In California it's the other way around - half the time they don't even bother slowing down.
I'd say you likely have the better end of the deal there. At least if they're stopped they won't get in an accident.
Posted by: Brownian, OM | October 5, 2008 3:39 PM
Canadian readers are going to scoff at PZ and Mike the Englishman, that is, if it's not going to bother anyone.
My Tassie roommate realised she'd been Edmontonianised when she stood too close to the curb on a four-lane road and passing drivers, anticipating that she was going to illegally jaywalk, stopped to let her do so. Of course, she had no intention of crossing but did so anyway out of guilt because she'd made them stop. Once she'd crossed and they'd passed, she crossed back across the street and continued on her way.
Now, that's passive-aggressive.
We're morons with the four-way stops, too.
Posted by: Joanna | October 5, 2008 3:40 PM
We have the same problem where my parents live. What sucks though is that the 4-way stop doesn't work because the people are being too polite, it's because they don't understand how the damn thing works!
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | October 5, 2008 3:40 PM
Cue John Prine:
Last night I saw an accident
on the corner of Third and Green
two cars collided and I got excited
just being part of that scene
It was Mrs. Tom Walker and her beautiful daughter
Pamela, was driving the car
they got hit by a man in a lite blue sedan
who had obviously been to a bar.
It was a four way stop dilemma
we all arrived the same time
I yielded to the man to the right of me
and he yielded it right back to mine
well, the yield went around and around and around
till Pamela finally tried
just then the man in the light blue sedan
hit Pamela's passenger side.
Posted by: MH | October 5, 2008 3:41 PM
I've never heard of a four-way-stop before, but they can't be worse than the Magic Roundabout.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | October 5, 2008 3:41 PM
Aaaaaand all together on the:
Chorus:
They don't know how lucky they are
they could have run into that tree
got struck by a bolt of lightning
and raped by a minority.
Posted by: BMS | October 5, 2008 3:42 PM
I challenge the assertion that roundabouts work.
You know what Vegas drivers do?
They either (1) drive straight through the roundabout (lots o' 4x4s in Vegas) or (2) the drivers who are supposed to yield (those entering), and the drivers exiting will do so from the inside lane, not bothering to move over to the outside lane, and certainly not bothering to signal.
Oh, and (3) they drive as fast as their tires will allow around the r-a-b. In Vegas, the posted speed limit is not even a suggestion, it's a hint.
Posted by: SC | October 5, 2008 3:45 PM
Heh. Brought to mind the collision scene from L.A. Story:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=va3A69zF1Zw&feature=related
We don't have that problem here in Boston.
Posted by: El Herring | October 5, 2008 3:45 PM
Sounds daft to me. this is how it's done.
Posted by: The chemist | October 5, 2008 3:46 PM
@Robert,
Regarding roundabouts, are you kidding?
Ever been to Qatar? They barely have traffic lights because of the infernal things! I suppose they'd be okay in moderation but we Americans, instant-gratificationists that we are, would overdo it and use it as a device to end stopping your car for a light ever.
Besides, it would hinder all of those high speed police chases I enjoy watching.
Posted by: Mike the Englishman | October 5, 2008 3:46 PM
@11:
You win the passive-aggressive award.You know, if what you really want is to hurt us and feel good about it, that's fine.
I said, it's fine.
It's. Fine.
Posted by: Johnny Vector | October 5, 2008 3:47 PM
We have a different "too-nice" problem in the mid-Atlantic states, or whatever it's called from DC to Boston (fivethirtyeight.com calls them the "Acela" states; maybe I'll start using that).
Anyway. It happens whenever a lane is closed for construction, and the traffic is dense enough that it has become a "slow merge" (maybe 5 mph). The right thing to do is to alternate at the merge, but some people feel bad about waiting until the last moment to move over, so they merge well before the end of the lane, sometimes by forcibly squeezing in. Which just lets everyone else in that lane move forward.
The result is the disappearing lane becomes the fastest lane on the road, and the adjacent one slows to a near stop. Just stay in the lane and merge at the end, people!
Note that this does not apply when the flow is low enough to allow a high-speed merge. Nor does it apply in the midwest, where everyone moves into the left lane when warned that the right lane is closed 4 miles ahead, even if the left lane is slow. And if more than two assholes start passing everyone in the empty lane, a truck will move over to block them. I'm fine with that, too.
Posted by: Tony Sidaway | October 5, 2008 3:47 PM
You should try one of these. For smaller intersections, a "mini" version can be used with just a small round depression or traffic bollard in the center.
The rule is that you yield to traffic coming from the left (or right if using the UK system where we drive on the left hand side of the road) so traffic that has entered the roundabout always has priority over traffic that has not. For reasonable traffic volumes these are very efficient and remarkably reliable.
Posted by: Tony Sidaway | October 5, 2008 3:50 PM
And for anybody who thinks they don't work, please look at the UK crash statistics. I think you'll be impressed, given the degree of road congestion on our tiny island.
Posted by: BMS | October 5, 2008 3:54 PM
Tony Sidaway @ #23, see me @ #16.
There're 2 prerequisites.
(1) People have to know what the rules are.
(2) People have to give enough of a shit to follow the rules.
They don't, generally.
Posted by: SC | October 5, 2008 3:55 PM
Actually, this happens to me on almost a daily basis. Must be a woman thing. Of course, the difference is that I am generally planning to illegally jaywalk, and this makes doing so slightly more dangerous since the drivers coming from the opposite direction might not be paying attention. But then I feel like I have to run across - carefully - so the people who've stopped for me don't get hit from behind. It's all very complicated...
Posted by: pixelfish | October 5, 2008 3:56 PM
It was good that my cousin's wife warned me about the New England habit (strong in Rhode Island and Massachusetts at least) of being overly polite at the 4 way stops. This politeness apparently lead to New England drivers thinking they can make left turns when the light turns green, because they are so used to people politely waving them through. So I'd always proceed very slowly off a green light because so many drivers took that "courtesy left" for granted.
(I'm going to have to disagree with the above commenter who said they don't have that problem in Boston. Because they certainly do. My nerves were fraying at all the close encounters until it was explained to me. Here I was legally proceeding along, and somebody would make a turn right in front of me, obviously expecting that I would go with some unknown courtesy known to the locals and not by the letter of the law.)
Posted by: robbrown | October 5, 2008 3:57 PM
The problem is, the rules are ambiguous. They say, the person who gets there first goes first, but if both cars get there at the same time, yield to the right. But how do you define "at the same time"? There is a significant period where it is ambiguous.
Anyone who has done multithreaded programming and has to avoid race conditions knows that there is a fundamental flaw here. I'm neither particularly aggressive nor passive at 4 way stops, but here and there I've gotten into a "go ahead...ok i'll go...ok you are going, go ahead....ok fine I'll go...oops, go ahead" situation that seems to go on forever. I imagine it would be most likely to occur if the person driving the other car was my identical twin, because he would be likely to be using the exact same algorithm as me, which is what causes the problem.
Posted by: BMS | October 5, 2008 4:00 PM
pixelfish -
Ha ha ha ha!
I saw that in Connecticut all the time! Freaked me out at first, but eventually I figured it out.
Posted by: Steve Ulven | October 5, 2008 4:00 PM
#2, Roundabouts are cool when people know how to use them, but I live in the Twin Cities and there are a lot of people who can't grasp them making them rather dangerous. I agree with the 4-way stops, though. They were awful when I lived in North Dakota and they just as awful here. And it bothers me to no end that people often time it so they stop the same exact time as you do. It's gotten to the point that I'll stop 20 feet from the sign just to avoid the confusion of who stopped first and dealing with the waving.
Posted by: Ian H Spedding FCD | October 5, 2008 4:01 PM
As Brit here in Fargo, the newly-opened roundabout makes me feel quite homesick. I fantasize about sneaking out there one night and planting a Union Jack in the middle.
I have got used to these strange four-way stops finally, though. In the UK it's simpler because at any four-way junction (intersection) one of the roads is always marked out as the "minor" road by white lines painted across the lane. Traffic on the minor road always has to give way to traffic on the major road so there is no confusion. It's the same a traffic lights. You are not allowed to cross a red light under any circumstances. There's no question of being allowed to turn right across a red if the road is clear.
That said, my (Minnesotan) wife points out that part of the problem now is that so many drivers are approaching these intersections while chatting on cellphones that they simply don't notice who got there first.
Posted by: Tony Popple | October 5, 2008 4:02 PM
This isn't just a problem in the more laid-back rural areas. You can sometimes see examples of that around Minneapolis. People try to be polite and end up disrupting the flow of traffic.
My pet-peeve occurs when you try to merge into traffic and people decided to break to let you in. They are only trying to be polite, but it can be annoying. You will trying to merge in behind a car and suddenly disappears into your blind-spot.
I personally like roundabouts, but midwesterns haven't figured them out yet. If you encounter a roundabout in Minnesota, you should approach with caution. People may come from the wrong direction. At the very least, they tend to ignore the yield signs.
Posted by: Newfie | October 5, 2008 4:02 PM
We don't have traffic lights here yet, but we do have the colours picked out. Seriously though, people do not understand "right of way".. it's the rules of the road for a reason. Even driving on a street with no stop signs or traffic light here, you have to be careful of the driver in front of you, as they are likely to slam on the brakes to let a person through a side street stop sign proceed before them. They mostly do not understand the difference in the words "yield" and "merge" also. I'd hope that my surgeon passed his exams and retained his knowledge more than 95 percent of the public do with their driver's exam.
Posted by: mercator | October 5, 2008 4:08 PM
We're just silly with 4-way stops around here, and all the nice canucks suffer from the same malady. It gets worse when I arrive because everybody expects a guy on a bike to just run it.
Note, the behavior changes when it's icy - then nobody stops.
Posted by: MRW | October 5, 2008 4:09 PM
"Ever heard of roundabouts? They work just fine."
Well.. in Indiana, where there's a similar passive-aggressive niceness, nobody knows what the heck a roundabout is for or how to use it, and you end up with people stopping for the "yield" sign.
Of course, it could be worse... a roundabout a few blocks from my place in Mass has stop signs, stop lights at the inlets and at two separate places in the middle, crosswalks cutting through it.... more near-misses and honking there than at any other intersection I've seen.
Posted by: SC | October 5, 2008 4:12 PM
I thought people did that everywhere! Haven't driven much outside New England - had no idea it was a regional thing. You'll also often notice (or be among) up to five cars that have pulled into the middle of an intersection during a green light knowing they're not going to be able to turn left before the light changes but that the perpendicular drivers will wait for them, which they do. But I haven't noticed an excess of politeness at 4-way stopsigns here like is described for other places.
Posted by: Shane Killian | October 5, 2008 4:13 PM
I don't know what city planners in this country have against roundabouts. In a new 4-lane highway they're building near where I live, where it crosses one road, instead of making normal exits, they're going to make people on the road merge on the highway, cross two lanes, do a U-turn, cross two more lanes, and then merge off just to stay on the road they were on. The worst part is, it's right near a school and the school buses will have to go through these machinations as well.
At the meeting, I asked the planners why not just make it a roundabout (you would avoid the expense of both a stop light and an overpass with not much difference in paving), and they all acted like I was crazy...even though every Joe Citizen I talked to thought it was a great idea. Neighboring counties are starting to build roundabouts, and they're working great!
Posted by: Tony P | October 5, 2008 4:13 PM
We have 4-way stops around here and we refer to that condition as a Polish Standoff. Don't know the origin of it but it fits.
Then of course I love this one. If I'm walking about I'll be at an intersection with both traffic and pedestrian signals. If my signal is the orange hand I wait. Cars stop, I wave them through. I note this more in MA than RI.
Posted by: JenM | October 5, 2008 4:13 PM
At least they stop.
Around here people seem to think that if you stop behind someone at a stop sign, that counts as a stop. So one car will go through and so will the guy behind him.
Posted by: Pixelfish | October 5, 2008 4:14 PM
MRW: Do you live near Worcestor? I've heard about a legendary roundabout there... Anyway, near my place in Watertown, we had a five way stop-light with two more roads merging onto the five that actually met. My friends all called it The Fuck, and I got so used to calling it that, that when my very Mormon non-swearing parents showed up for a visit, I forgot and told my boyfriend to drive through The Fuck....and man, that was a deafening silence.
Posted by: Gordon S | October 5, 2008 4:14 PM
This happens to me sometimes, too.
I refuse to go first. I just sit there and blankly stare until they move.
Same if I'm jaywalking. Sometimes people stop in the middle of the road to let you pass, and I have to be mean just to make sure they don't do it again.
Posted by: CanadianChick | October 5, 2008 4:18 PM
we don't have that problem in this part of Canada - but we Vancouverites think that drivers from Alberta and the Maritimes are just whacked.
Posted by: tacitus | October 5, 2008 4:21 PM
Roundabouts are cool, but they've long stopped working for busier intersections in the UK, which is why many of them have traffic lights as well... a double whammy, of sorts.
One of the cruelest places I've seen a roundabout is right outside the Hertz car rental lot at Heathrow airport. Not the first thing an American wants to see behind the wheel of a car when they've just stepped off an overnight flight. I've actually seen someone almost drive over it because they just couldn't figure out what to do.
Posted by: Bride of Shrek OM | October 5, 2008 4:21 PM
There's one of those down the road from where I live and its known locally as "the shitful intersection". Trouble is in Australia you find a societal mix of passive-aggresive ( courtesy of our Brit heritage) and just plain agressive so frankly you take you life into your own hands using it. I personally love it- its a real microcosm of society going on down there and wacthing the antics can be truly hilarious. There's a PhD in Sociology in it for someone who is willing to park themselves down there with a deckchair and an esky and spend a few weeks watching.
Posted by: Calladus | October 5, 2008 4:23 PM
I used to live on Kadena Air Base in Okinawa. Off base, there is no such thing as a 4-way stop. Stop signs are always on the secondary road, and the primary road does not stop. If the traffic is too heavy on the primary for cross traffic, then eventually a stop light is installed. In some cases overpasses are installed.
But there are 4-way stops everywhere on the air base, and the local civilians often don't know what to do about it. I saw one driver stuck at the stop, looking at all the stop signs with a clear "WTF?" expression. I waved him on.
Now, learning to drive on the wrong side of the road is interesting. The gas, brake and clutch pedals are all in the correct places. The stick shift is moved to the opposite side but the shift pattern is the same. But for some weird reason, the turn signal indicator is swapped in position with the windshield wiper.
You could always tell a new person in Okinawa, when they would signal a turn, their windshield wipers would come on.
Posted by: Pedro | October 5, 2008 4:23 PM
You have to experience the Philippines for driving if you don't like 'nice' drivers. In Cebu City (pop 1 million) there are a total of about 4 traffic lights. The lane markers are considered suggestions and intersections are there to determine who is the most macho driver. The traffic cops are on foot so you don't see a lot of high speed chases.
Posted by: Glen Davidson | October 5, 2008 4:26 PM
You're from western Washington.
They're just as bad in eastern Washington as in Minnesota, the two places I've lived the longest. I'm so sick of the fucking idiots who wait until you stop, and then they'll go. Why do they think the first person to stop is the first to go? It's so they'll be at least partly through by the time you've stopped, expediting traffic.
Some of these appalling idiots hate you when you go because they're still wondering what to do, too.
Then again, if the cops weren't so lazy, politically-motivated, and eager to catch a worthy prize (rather than some slow doofus), they'd enforce more than the speeding law. Then people might signal, learn how to drive, and become more than meandering road morons.
Colorado has far better drivers than does eastern Washington.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: Richard Harris | October 5, 2008 4:27 PM
In English cities, half the drivers think that there is one rule for all situations. This could be summed up as, 'might is right'.
In the Dorset/Somerset/Wiltshire countryside where I ride my bike, most drivers are actually very considerate, especially after the GB cyclists brought all those golds back from the Olympics.
Unfortunately, the might-is-right brigade make occasional forays into the countryside. One idiot in a large van came out of a drive at high speed, without looking, into a lane in our village, right in front of me, a couple of days ago. I had my grandson in the car too. I was too shocked to honk at him.
I think that the driviers' test should include an intelligence test & an attitude test.
Posted by: J Myers | October 5, 2008 4:27 PM
This went on for that long? Pathetic.
Yeah, great idea: let's take all the people who can't manage to traverse an intersection form a stand-still, and instead, force them to navigate merging and crossing traffic among several concentric lanes of perpetually circling morons.
El Herring, that's pretty typical of India from I've seen. No lanes, no traffic control devices... just go when you can. It's even more fun in the more rural areas, where you're sharing the road with ox carts, camels, elephants, and the occasional stray herd of livestock.
pixelfish, that's a rather charitable description of the early left turn... having lived in CT for a few years, I've never once seen anyone waved on in that situation, but I've seen dozens of such lefts made to avoid having to wait for oncoming traffic to clear (sometimes in front of as few as 1 or 2 cars). Seen a few lefts on red as well, presumably for the same reason. Some people are just that important, you see.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | October 5, 2008 4:29 PM
I did 2 years driving in the Boston area--including a daily one-way commute of 45 minutes on 128 followed by a tour of beautiful Lynn--and although Mass drivers have many many problems, excessive politeness is not among them. (I lived on the Watertown/Belmont border and I know exactly what you mean by The Fuck. Another classic spot is the weirdness around the Old Powderhouse in Somerville. Man, I got wicked lost in Somerville more than once.)
Posted by: gramomster | October 5, 2008 4:30 PM
Shane @ 36
We have those here... we call them Michigan lefts. Almost all of the larger roads are thing onto which you cannot turn left, but must turn right, cross the lanes, u-turn, cross the lanes, and turn right. To continue moving forward. Crazy.
The one thing I have noticed since moving here, however, is that the back-ups to get onto an on-ramp onto one of the actual freeways (expressways) don't happen like they did in Seattle, because you don't have the left turn lane onto the on-ramps. So, the Michigan lefts seems to help the potential traffic back-ups in that way. But still... stoopid. I lived here for almost a year before I consistently went the right way on the major eastern through-way. Do I go right and continue in my direction of travel? Do I take the u-turn? Where the hell is the stupid Meijer?! Fuck!
We most definitely do not have super-politeness where bicyclists are concerned. It got bad enough this summer with bikes getting hit that it made the front page.
Posted by: Corydoras | October 5, 2008 4:31 PM
Roundabouts are the solution.
Posted by: scooter | October 5, 2008 4:32 PM
OT driving experience
Driving to work yesterday I noticed a Shaden Fraude Hurricane Ike Carrumba upside.
No steeples.
I pass at least 40 churches on the way to work, every one of them was de-steepled. They had undergone steeplectomies.
god took all his steeples back
_________________________________________
Hockeymom and scooter take phone calls: http://acksisofevil.org/audio/inner195.mp3
Posted by: Evolving Squid | October 5, 2008 4:33 PM
Where I live a "4-way stop" is really a 4-way-hit-horn-and-gas-simultaneously-while-extending-middle-finger-out-drivers-side-window.
The rule here is that the first person to come to a complete stop gets to go, and if there is doubt, the person on the right gets to go.
Posted by: student_b | October 5, 2008 4:41 PM
Well, we have lots and lots of roundabouts in Switzerland and they mostly work perfectly well (only sometimes the police crash in to them when they're new and not well known 0_0).
Also they're always used to put some piece of art inside, which makes the streets often look a bit better.
I especially like this one with a fountain inside.
But seriously, roundabouts are the solution and very easy to traverse, since you only have two rules. Anything coming from the left has right of way and if you're inside the roundabout you have right of way.
How that should be hard to understand eludes me. ;)
Posted by: JRQ | October 5, 2008 4:42 PM
When I lived in ND, the thing that drove me nuts was what people did when there was a 2-way stop or yield:
If a person had a stop sign, they glanced briefly to either side of the intersection and then roll through as though it was a yield. If they had a yield sign, they'd blow through the intersection without even looking. But if they didn't have a sign at all -- in other words, if they unambiguously had the right of way -- they'd stop.
Posted by: Azdak | October 5, 2008 4:42 PM
As another Canadian, I can confirm the phenomenon described by Brownian in #11. If I'm jaywalking, it's because I don't want people to stop for me -- I'm quick enough to find an opening on my own. If I wanted to stop traffic, I'd find a crosswalk. And show more leg.
The courtesy thing can quickly disappear, here, though, I've noticed. I still see a lot of "merge police" who seem to thrive on the righteous indignation generated by a perception of people "trying to get ahead of them" and consequently take perverse pleasure in preventing anyone from getting into their lane. Of course, what these morons fail to realize is that they screw everyone (themselves included) by bringing the whole process to a grinding halt.
A related phenomenon is when people here cruise along slowly in the passing lane on a highway, and refuse to give it up for anyone. That's illegal in many places, but here, some folks seem to think it's an inalienable right.
Posted by: SC | October 5, 2008 4:45 PM
I don't think it stems from either politeness or a sense of entitlement. It's simply the norm - pretty much everyone does it and permits others to - and may have emerged because at lights where there's no left turn arrow people would often be waiting eons just to turn.
Posted by: PixelFish | October 5, 2008 4:46 PM
Sven: Maybe I should revise that from "excessive politeness" to "inconsistent politeness completely out of character with normal driving habits". Because you are right that at other times, the Massachusetts driver is not inclined towards politeness.
Posted by: Jadehawk | October 5, 2008 4:48 PM
bah, compared to Californians, even Western Washingtoners are insanely polite. a friend discovered on a business trip to LA that driving like a Seattleite is a sure-fire way to cause an accident, because they don't know what polite and passive driving means.
My personal experience in California lasted long enough to explain the mystery of why no one ever uses their turn indicators there:you need to catch the other drivers by surprise in order to switch into their lane, and using the indicator gives them enough warning time to speed up and block you from entering their lane.
Posted by: greg laden | October 5, 2008 4:50 PM
I am trained in Boston. I give the Minnesotans two seconds then I take matters into my own hands.
Posted by: Trevor | October 5, 2008 4:50 PM
I dunno PZ. I've lived in Seattle now for about 4 months, and I've gotta say - these are the most idiotic drivers I've seen.
They insist on driving 10 mph below the speed limit in the left lane on I-5.
And four way stops? They're about as confused as anyone, here.
Oh, and don't forget that ANY (and I mean any) blinking, flashing, or shiny object will cause them to slow to a near stop, even on a major highway. It's amazing. Upstate new york was a totally different world... everyone was always in a race to get where they were going. It could be a pain in the ass sometimes, but I spent a lot less time driving, and my blood pressure was a lot lower.
Posted by: Tony Sidaway | October 5, 2008 4:53 PM
BMS | October 5, 2008 3:54 PM #24
Yes, it's a cultural thing.
Obviously the problem PZ Myers describes is cultural--Minnesotans do care a lot but here it's a problem. This is because the one to go last gets more prestige but the rules have been rigged so that the first to stop is the first to go.
The roundabout system provides rigid rules that are easy to negotiate and they'll reward Minnesotans by enabling them to roll to a stop at a time that maximizes their self esteem but gives them a clear idea of when they are expected to enter the intersection.
Posted by: Novemberromeo | October 5, 2008 4:56 PM
In the UK we solved it with roundabouts - but then we had to go overboard and design the Magic Roundabout -
http://www.bbc.co.uk/wiltshire/content/images/2007/10/22/msn_magic_roundabout_470x350.jpg
Posted by: Jadehawk | October 5, 2008 4:57 PM
and coming from Germany and California, the disturbing habit of people in Washington and North Dakota to actually drive at or below the speedlimit always sets of paranoia (the only reason not to break the speedlimit is the presence of a cop)
Posted by: Bee | October 5, 2008 4:57 PM
CanadianChick, it's only like that in Alberta because the influx of Maritimers and Newfoundlanders has forced it upon them.
(We aim to civilize the creationism outta that province, one way or another, if it takes the last livin' kissable codfish to do it.)
Posted by: pcarini | October 5, 2008 5:02 PM
I do the same. If I'm the last one at a four-way I'll give the others three seconds before I go through. Funny thing is that one person taking decisive action seems to snap the others out of their stupor.
My state is full of stupid, indecisive drivers who, even when they know where they're going drive there as hesitantly as possible. It makes me batty but at least they aren't actively trying to kill people, like Idaho drivers.
Funny that no matter how bad drivers from one's own region are, one can always say that drivers from a neighboring region are worse.
Posted by: keith twombley | October 5, 2008 5:02 PM
The thing that ticks me off the most is this.
You know what is really nice, when driving? Like truly, honestly, actually nice?
Following the rules.
Following the rules means you will behave in a predictable and sane manner. That means I won't have to worry about my safety or my deductible.
So, truly, the nice thing to do at a four-way stop is to GO WHEN IT'S YOUR TURN.
Posted by: Jeanette | October 5, 2008 5:02 PM
I lived in Tokyo between 1969-1971 (Army brat), and they had a similar phenomenon there. Only a rude person would go first, so there was a kind of competition any time two drivers were stopped, where each driver in turn would bow to the other one, back and forth before one of them finally broke down and proceeded. Being "rude" Americans, my parents would only participate in this ritual exchange of bowing for a few rounds before giving in.
Posted by: Rey Fox | October 5, 2008 5:02 PM
I lived in the outskirts of NW Las Vegas for a short time, where the development is by far outpacing the infrastructure. If you think regular 4-way stops are fun, try 4-way stops on roads with five lanes apiece.
Posted by: Thomas Langham | October 5, 2008 5:07 PM
I never understood why Americans have never adopted the roundabout. It would solve the four-way problem straight away
Posted by: keith twombley | October 5, 2008 5:07 PM
One more thing to note is that, in this situation, the best possible thing to do is to wait until it is actually your turn.
Just take your hands off the wheel, sit there, and stare straight forward.
Just wait to see how nice someone really is when the police show up and you've been T-boned by a soccer mom driving an SUV and you didn't really have the right of way.
"Waving? I wasn't waving. I had the right of way, doncha know!"
Nope. Screw that. I wait them out.
Posted by: Rey Fox | October 5, 2008 5:08 PM
I live in Boise and haven't personally encountered drivers trying to kill me. The main driving quirk that annoys me is the incredibly slow turn, usually seen with SUVs. Perhaps they're worried that they'll topple over if they turn faster than 5 MPH, or else they're worried that the suspension won't be able to handle that little curb ramp into a parking lot. I sit there cursing them, knowing that I'm the one who has the low-clearance Honda Civic and therefore actually run a risk of scraping the bottom in deep enough dips.
Posted by: bigjohn756 | October 5, 2008 5:10 PM
Y'all haven't seen anything until you have ridden in Korea. Drive? I wouldn't drive there on a bet. There are special rules there which, I suspect, one must learn from childhood. For example, forming six lanes at a three lane intersection and then turning left from the far right line. I was in that car and we made it! So did the other three cars behind us. Some people in the leftmost lanes turned left, too. Lots of horn blowing and screeching tires as everyone, for the most part, ignored the policeman directing traffic.
Posted by: Azdak | October 5, 2008 5:16 PM
@CanadianChick #41: Come to Victoria. It happens in this area all the time.
Posted by: Jesse, Dallas | October 5, 2008 5:18 PM
This is sooooo true. When I loved from Minnesota to Dallas, all that changed. Here you've got about .5 seconds to go (if that).
Posted by: pcarini | October 5, 2008 5:18 PM
Rey @ #72: I absolutely hate that! Particularly when traffic is coming up the street that you find you're stuck in the middle of.
About the ID drivers, it seems they're allright inside of Idaho, and just turn horrible when they cross the border into Utah. The only time I've _ever_ seen someone drive into opposing traffic on a four lane road (complete w/ separate left-turn lane) was an ID driver around BYU campus. Who knows if it wasn't the BYU making them dumb, though... CA drivers seem to want to drive 10 MPH under the limit in the passing lane here also, so maybe my state has a bad effect on everybody.
We'll adopt roundabouts, accents, parliamentary democracy, Tesco, and cricket long before we finally adopt the metric system, dammitall. And to think, when I went to elementary school one of my teachers was warning that we had better learn metric...Posted by: Jadehawk | October 5, 2008 5:23 PM
Seattle has roundabouts in the more residential parts. taxi cabs usually shoot straight across those, usually in the opposite direction they're supposed to (especially on left turns). I one nearly had a head-on collision with one.
Posted by: JSB | October 5, 2008 5:30 PM
Trevor - since you've only been in Seattle a few months you have not yet experienced the "best" of Seattle traffic. Wait until it snows. People will be abandoning their cars on the streets, and including on the lanes of I-5. Even the bus drivers do this. A mere quarter inch of snow in Seattle causes traffic mayhem. You can probably drive in the stuff, but most Seattle residents cannot handle it. Heck, most of them have trouble with rain, and we get plenty of that. Good luck with your blood pressure.
Posted by: Lady Fu | October 5, 2008 5:32 PM
Similar things happen in Wisconsin... except I usually wave people through not to be nice, but because they're already rolling through the intersection and it usually isn't certain they're actually going to follow rules of right-away.
Posted by: Lady Fu | October 5, 2008 5:33 PM
right-away? Yes, my brain is toast. Make that right-of-way. *smacks self
Posted by: Zombie | October 5, 2008 5:34 PM
15-20 seconds? Been a while since you moved, eh? Now if you wait at a stop sign for more than about 15-20 milliseconds longer than you should you lose your turn. Unless you are on the East Side and drive a BMW, then traffic laws don't apply and you just blow through it without stopping at all.
After driving in the UK I'd have to say I much prefer the roundabout to the four-way fail.
Posted by: Azdak | October 5, 2008 5:34 PM
They've started putting in roundabouts here, too, but they've apparently learned from the rest of you: they put flower beds in the middle of them. It might not stop a Hummer, but I suspect your average Kia Sorento is not up to a showdown with a bed of tulips.
Posted by: Diego | October 5, 2008 5:36 PM
It's a similar situation here in the South. Courtesy is taken to the painful extreme, and I am as guilty as the next guy because I am just as steeped in the Southern politeness thing. It's fairly widespread down here as long as you don't go down to Miami. Down there traffic is a vicious third world free for all, and they're all armed.
P.S. My grad advisor was an aggressive California-born driver who frequently complained about southern drivers. He also couldn't handle the formality and it drove him nuts trying to get his students to call him by his first name.
Posted by: SC | October 5, 2008 5:36 PM
By the way, you all might be ahead on dangerous politeness, but we still "win" in the stupidity category:
http://www.cnn.com/2006/AUTOS/05/26/gmac_test_rankings/index.html
Posted by: Jadehawk |