…and this is a 
I pray that angels come down from heaven and heal these polls
Category: Pointless polls
Posted on: October 6, 2008 1:08 AM, by PZ Myers
Isn't technology wonderful? It allows the woo-woos to spread their nonsense so much more rapidly, and to look slick and shiny and modern while they do it. Take a look at this report and polls on a site called AOL Health — AOL Quackery is more like it — which describes a survey that says 16% of Americans claim to have experienced a "miraculous healing", as if that somehow increases the credibility of the experience. It does not. All it means is that the gullible have been primed with an explanation that they will regurgitate when queried.
Do they think this through? No. They even cite that "Pentecostals and African-American Protestants were far more likely than other groups, such as mainline Protestants or Catholics or Jews, to say they have either witnessed or experienced a miraculous healing firsthand." If reporting were equivalent to actual intervention by a deity, wouldn't that mean god favors Pentecostals and Protestants with darker skin color?
A silly article must be accompanied by silly polls. This one has two!
Do you believe in miraculous healing?
Of course: 79%
Absolutely not: 12%
I'm not sure: 9%
Have you experienced a miracle?
I believe so: 73%
Not that I know of: 19%
I don't believe in miracles: 8%
Those numbers sure look wacky. Do you think they will have magically, miraculously changed for me by the morning?
Comments
Posted by: Starcraft Lover | October 6, 2008 1:35 AM
You must feel quite powerful, with your poll-smashing horde of angry citizens!
Posted by: Prof. Bleen | October 6, 2008 1:37 AM
AOL: That's all you need to know. This one'll be tough: six thousand votes already for the first question.
Posted by: Owlmirror | October 6, 2008 1:37 AM
[*soft, modulated, angelic voice*]
I am an angel, and I am here to heal...
[*screeching record noise*]
[*not-so-soft voice*]
...Wait, you're an atheist? Never mind.
Posted by: Pony | October 6, 2008 1:39 AM
Come on now, I believe in miracles.
...
(Where you from? You sexy thang...)[/hotchocolate]
Posted by: James B. Webb | October 6, 2008 1:51 AM
You know there's a problem with this country when we have this many people with these kinds of beliefs; did you know that Sarah Palin is amongst those who feel this is true? http://brainrageblog.blogspot.com/2008/09/sarah-palins-demon-haunted-churches.html
Posted by: fly44d | October 6, 2008 1:52 AM
This is going to be hard, the AOL loonies are numerous. Thousands believe. I got my three votes in.
Posted by: fly44d | October 6, 2008 1:52 AM
This is going to be hard, the AOL loonies are numerous. Thousands believe. I got my three votes in.
Posted by: sara | October 6, 2008 1:52 AM
Aussie New Wavers believe in angels:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D6zBjYIyz-0
Posted by: Gregory Kusnick | October 6, 2008 1:55 AM
I predict that by morning they will have been replaced by a different, equally silly poll.
fly44d: So would that be six votes total?
Posted by: cactusren | October 6, 2008 1:56 AM
Did my part, though I wish there had been an option for "I've fixed my health problems through a strict diet (or surgery, or medicine), without divine intervention."
Posted by: BMS | October 6, 2008 1:57 AM
Mu-ha-ha-haaaa!
I was vote #666 for "I don't believe in miracles."
Posted by: aleph | October 6, 2008 1:58 AM
Didn't you just say that postmodernism is not that bad, and imply by recommendation that apples are no more real than God, and that science is a mere verbal convention with no correspondence to reality? How come you now want angels to heal a poll about miraculous healing? Doesn't postmodernism teach us that miraculous healing is just as valid and legitimate as real healing? Why do you try to impose the hegemony of science, if at the same time you think science is just a subjective way of thinking, without anything to do with the truth?
Posted by: mikeg | October 6, 2008 1:58 AM
fuck! i hit the wrong choice on the 1st one... sunday night, too much grog
Posted by: Hank Fox | October 6, 2008 2:02 AM
I'm a little leery about that top poll. Notice that before you click in, "Absolutely Not" is in the bottom position. But when the results appear, it's in the middle position.
I hope what's happening is that the graphing program arranges them by size of response.
Re: #1: I don't think of myself, or us, as "poll smashing." I think of us as citizen responders. If you post a public poll and people give their honest answers, then the answer is whatever it is, whether you like it or not. Obviously many of these polls pander to Christians, but if they get an answer they don't like, it's not the fault of the people answering.
Posted by: Wowbagger | October 6, 2008 2:17 AM
It's a pity the 'angels' don't seem to have a cure for cluelessness. It's also sad for all the doctors and other dedicated medical professionals to have what is most likely the result of their expertise and hard work ignored in favour of magic and ooga-booga.
Posted by: clinteas | October 6, 2008 2:18 AM
Hm,
the woo is strong in this one.
Still 70 % pro miracle healing.
Posted by: Wowbagger | October 6, 2008 2:23 AM
If these stats are true then why is the US health system in such trouble? Surely these people, if they genuinely believe in this garbage, would stay at home and pray rather than see a doctor or go to a hospital.
Or do they believe that the 'angel' only heals them after conventional medicine is used? Teh stupid! It burns!
Posted by: Gregory Kusnick | October 6, 2008 2:38 AM
Right. It's not a miracle until a doctor says so.
Posted by: llewelly | October 6, 2008 2:38 AM
Delete the aol cookies and vote again. Repeat as needed.Posted by: «bønez_brigade» | October 6, 2008 2:41 AM
Voted for reality.
Current state of polls:
Do you believe in miraculous healing?
Of course 73%
Absolutely not 19%
I'm not sure 8%
Total Votes: 6,808
Have you experienced a miracle?
I believe so 68%
Not that I know of 17%
I don't believe in miracles 15%
Total Votes: 6,812
Posted by: llewelly | October 6, 2008 2:43 AM
We raise awareness about the stupidity and distortion of online polls by demonstrating their inherent weaknesses.Posted by: Jim Harrison | October 6, 2008 2:45 AM
When used in the usual polemical fashion, the word postmodernism doesn't have much meaning over and beyond what could be conveyed by calling somebody Mr. Poopy Pants. Scientists get very unhappy when they realize that nonscientists haven't bothered to learn any science, but many of them don't feel any obligation to look outside their own encampment at the wider world, even at what lies just beyond the tent flap. What gets slimed under the rubric of postmodernism actually includes all sorts of valuable things, including the really remarkable flowering of the history, sociology, and philosophy of science that has taken place over the last half century. No doubt plenty of nonsense gets published in these fields, but then plenty of crap gets published by empirical scientists too.
I had a conversation once with a rather distinguished mathematician who was just on the verge of retirement. He allowed that he had one regret. His interests had been too narrow, he told me. With his career at an end, he realized that there was more to life than real analysis. There was also mathematical physics.
Posted by: Ruben | October 6, 2008 2:48 AM
Come me hearties, these polls ain't half done yet! The navy of enlightenment has a paltry 20% to go for it!
Posted by: David | October 6, 2008 2:49 AM
Think of this as my thanks to PZ for this wonderful blog.
Enjoy everyone :)
Posted by: Kobra | October 6, 2008 2:50 AM
Is no one safe from PZ Myers's insane poll-crashing?
Nope.
Posted by: Cowcakes | October 6, 2008 2:53 AM
Morons. They haven't even blocked multiple voting. Back to Vote, refresh page. Vote, refresh page......
Posted by: llewelly | October 6, 2008 2:53 AM
No. There was only about 6000 votes when PZ posted. Even in the graveyard hours of a Monday morning, Pharyngula will deliver at least 400 votes an hour. By 6am CST that'll be over 2000 votes. Then west coasters will start coming online, we'll see closer to 1000 votes an hour, I suspect. Smashed by lunch time, I'm guessing.Posted by: Jennifer | October 6, 2008 3:00 AM
Have you experienced a miracle?
I believe so: 73%
The really amusing thing to me about this, is, having been raised Catholic (not any more, thanks very much), that miracles are supposed to be rare. One in a century, maybe. If 73% of the people who have merely answered the poll (not everyone out there, but just the tiny amount of Earth's population that own a computer and answered the poll) believe they've experienced a miracle, by the standards of most churches, they haven't. Instead--again by the standards of their own churches--they've experienced supernatural phenomena created by the Devil to lead them astray.
For those who believe that crap, anyway.
Posted by: Masks of Eris | October 6, 2008 3:00 AM
What? We're supposed to be minions, ilk and angels?I'm adding those to my CV if the list gets any longer...
Posted by: Azkyroth | October 6, 2008 3:01 AM
Actually, the majority of criticism of "postmodernism," in my experience, centers around the appropriation of the label for a school of epistemology baseda round the application of the core postulate of moral relativism to matters of empirical fact.
Posted by: David | October 6, 2008 3:06 AM
400 votes/hour? Not on my watch :)
By my calculations, it's about 27,000 an hour.
But I'll stop. We've already won.
Posted by: David | October 6, 2008 3:18 AM
If anyone feels like completely crashing the poll worse than I've done, enjoy:
http://pastebin.com/m345fad6d
Posted by: Pimientita | October 6, 2008 3:19 AM
The power of pharyngulization is, well, a little frightening. I voted about 10 minutes ago and went to finish making my tea and refreshed and the vote count went up about 4,000 votes and the percentages reversed. Amazing...
Posted by: Jaban | October 6, 2008 3:23 AM
I don't know how much this affects the results, but... I may have accidentally voted more than once.
Posted by: «bønez_brigade» | October 6, 2008 3:27 AM
goddamn; currently:
Do you believe in miraculous healing?
Absolutely not 67% 11,083
Of course 30% 5,041
I'm not sure 3% 542
Total Votes: 16,666
Have you experienced a miracle?
I don't believe in miracles 63% 10,006
I believe so 29% 4,669
Not that I know of 8% 1,191
Total Votes: 15,866
Posted by: clinteas | October 6, 2008 3:27 AM
LOL
Pharyngulated.
67% against
Posted by: Mike W | October 6, 2008 3:28 AM
I love poll smashing!!
i know its pointless, but i always imagine some religious people seeing the results and being shocked
Posted by: fly44D | October 6, 2008 3:32 AM
@#9 Gregory.... no, my finger twitched on the submit button and I posted twice.
BUT! (@ #27 llewelly ) I have come back and see that things are much improved. llewelly, I should not have despaired over the large number of wo-believers to be overcome. They are being overrun by the hoard of which I am just a minion. I also discovered (@#19) how easy it is to delete the aol cookies and vote again... so yes, I have contributed at a dozen more votes. Are you sure cookies don't have to be deleted Cowcakes?
Posted by: aleph | October 6, 2008 3:33 AM
> What gets slimed under the rubric of postmodernism actually includes all sorts of valuable things, including the really remarkable flowering of the history, sociology, and philosophy of science that has taken place over the last half century.
What people call postmodern history or sociology of science is almost invariably dictated by hateful and fictitious epistemology written by people who are completely illiterate in scientific matters and who don't even set about with an intention of being fair. After all, fairness is just a myth of the Enlightenment, isn't this what postmodernism teaches us? "Truth doesn't matter, just say what you need to say": postmodernism is to academia what machiavellianism is to politics.
As for the philosophy of science, it is almost invariably opposed to postmodernism (and when it isn't, it's astonishingly puerile and absurd).
People who aren't familiar with pomo might wonder why we hate it so much. Well, it's because it's that painful to read it ;-)
Posted by: Tristan | October 6, 2008 3:37 AM
Dayum, David. Nice work!
Posted by: Anders | October 6, 2008 3:49 AM
Always nice to join the De"vote"ies in a pollsmashing
Posted by: Geoffrey | October 6, 2008 3:55 AM
Dave, should've expanded the script to do both polls at once
Posted by: The Chimp's Raging Id | October 6, 2008 3:56 AM
The hordes of Pharyngula have done it again:
Do you believe in miraculous healing?
Absolutely not 77%
Of course 21%
I'm not sure 2%
(Total Votes: 23,766)
Have you experienced a miracle?
I don't believe in miracles 75%
I believe so 20%
Not that I know of 5%
(Total Votes: 23,592)
Mission accomplished.
Posted by: Jim Harrison | October 6, 2008 3:57 AM
Aleph sounds like Gollum: "Postmodernism we hates it!" It's evil, it's machiavellian, it's a hateful and fictitious epistemology. Actually, I kind of like the notion of a fictitious epistemology. Imagine trying to devise a fictional epistemology on purpose. Might be fun. It would certainly be difficult to judge by the inability of science fiction writers to invent credible fictional philosophies for their characters.
Anyhow, there aren't a huge number of people of any description who call themselves postmodernists. The term itself goes back to Lyotard in whose writings it had some meaning. Otherwise, it is a word pinned on people the speaker does not like and made to mean " Even the term "Poststructuralism" is preferable if you've gotta have some way of lumping together thinkers that emerged after 1960 or so. It is true that a lot of people have raised questions about enlightenment values--better they should take 'em on faith?--but they haven't done so in one fashion and, anyhow, putative postmodernists have no monopoly on such critiques. Or do you count Theodore Adorno or Kierkegaard or Nietzsche or any number of Marxists as postmodernist too?
By the way, I don't know if fairness is a myth of the Enlightenment, but I reckon it's fair to say that the Enlightenment is something of a myth, not because there weren't all sorts of interesting ideas proposed during the 18th Century or because nothing significant happened in that era but because just exactly what counts as Enlightenment is pretty hard to define. The Scottish Enlightenment, for example, was a very different phenomenon than the French Enlightenment. The funny thing is, what get identified as Enlightenment values or views are often pretty obviously more akin to 19th Century and early 20th Century positivism than anything you'd find in Voltaire or Adam Smith or Rousseau or Edward Gibbon.
Posted by: David | October 6, 2008 4:00 AM
Not that it's needed now, but here's one for the second poll:
http://pastebin.com/m3589720b
Posted by: Azkyroth | October 6, 2008 4:01 AM
Jim Harrison: Any response to my reply?
Posted by: bad Jim | October 6, 2008 4:08 AM
Thank you, David. The rest of us mere minions continue to think ourselves useful notwithstanding your skullduggery.
Posted by: clinteas | October 6, 2008 4:13 AM
David,
the fun bit is crashing a stupid poll by the sheer numbers of Pharyngulites participating,and then having a giggle about it in the comments while we reverse the numbers.
We kinda realize that there are scripts out there to achieve the same,but,and the others may correct me if im wrong,we think its rather stupid,and certainly not fun.
Posted by: Dana | October 6, 2008 4:15 AM
God is real. There are miracles. I hope you will all get a 2nd chance to accept God and the truth that surrounds him. I hope he doesn't judge you by your thoughts expressed about this topic. I will pray for each of you who have left negative postings. Shame on you. Take a good long look at your own body. YOU are a walking miracle!!
Posted by: Rey Fox | October 6, 2008 4:15 AM
Yeah, 73%...sort of takes the "miraculous" out of "miracle". Of course, these people only "believe" they've seen one, so this of course could be yet another case of belief in belief.
Posted by: clinteas | October 6, 2008 4:20 AM
Dana,
//Take a good long look at your own body. YOU are a walking miracle!! //
hmmm so your body is a miracle too? Will you show me???? Pleeeeeze !
Posted by: Scott Rhoades | October 6, 2008 4:23 AM
4:22 am EST 10-6-08
Do you believe in miraculous healing?
Absolutely not 85%
Of course 14%
I'm not sure 1%
Total Votes: 37,126
Have you experienced a miracle?
I don't believe in miracles 84%
I believe so 13%
Not that I know of 3%
Total Votes: 36,044
Posted by: Dana | October 6, 2008 4:27 AM
Hi Clinteas...
//I will show you one small portion of my body called the "fist".//I'll show you one large portion of your body called a swollen lip.//At this point you may be praying for your first miracle. Actually, I'm only teasing but I hope it doesn't take a traumatic experience in your life to direct you to believe in God and miracles. So many people wait until they are faced with some type of trauma or tragedy before they will lower their pride and turn to God!!
Posted by: clinteas | October 6, 2008 4:34 AM
//I will show you one small portion of my body called the "fist".I'll show you one large portion of your body called a swollen lip//
Kinky,hm?? Thats ok with me hun,got a safeword? Let me guess,is it "Transsubstantiation" ?
//So many people wait until they are faced with some type of trauma or tragedy before they will lower their pride and turn to God!!//
So what you are saying is that it is a normal human reaction to turn to belief in higher powers if faced with desperation,fear,trauma and tragedy? I couldnt argee more with you !
But just think it through for a moment Dana,what does that say about your God?
Posted by: Grammar RWA | October 6, 2008 4:39 AM
I will physically assault you if you do not believe in my war god, Yahweh Sabaoth. Ha ha, only serious. Jesus loves you!
Posted by: Stewart Paterson | October 6, 2008 4:39 AM
Minion #654789 reported for duty
Posted by: jo | October 6, 2008 4:41 AM
I'm proud that I'm one of these angles =P
Posted by: Pollerizer | October 6, 2008 4:42 AM
It seems someone else has a much faster script.
Perhaps one which uses simultaneous persistent connections and does not wait for the server's reply after submitting the form, giving it the capacity to submit several hundred votes per second if the creator so desired.
Trust godless liberals to know things about science and technology!
Posted by: Philip1978 | October 6, 2008 4:47 AM
Ermm Dana, just to save you some time, you don't have to pray for me.
For further information please consult this link - warning, contents contains the unforgivable sin!
http://teafueledmadness.blogspot.com/2008/07/please-do-not-pray-for-me.html
Voted on Poll, take that AOL!
:)
Posted by: Nick Gotts | October 6, 2008 4:48 AM
Take a good long look at your own body. YOU are a walking miracle!! - Dana
I suggest you address that stupid, condescending remark to those suffering from brittle bone disease, Duchenne muscular dystrophy, retinitis pigmentosa, cystic fibrosis, Huntingdon's disease, microcephalism, haemophilia, sickle cell anaemia, or any one of hundreds of other painful and/or disabling inherited disorders. Incidentally, to say "I will pray for you" to an atheist is extremely insulting - but you probably knew that.
Posted by: Grammar RWA | October 6, 2008 4:53 AM
Someone go over to http://news.google.com/ and scroll down to Sci/Tech. Tell me, am I the only one seeing a horoscope there?
Posted by: tripwire | October 6, 2008 4:56 AM
@Dana: I especially need a lot of prayer. Could you fit in 2 hours of fanatical, devout praying for me? I wouldn't want to waste your time of course, but I'm such a stubborn, evil, devil-worshipping heathen, that I truly need someone to pray for me for lengthy amounts of time.
For that matter, could you get your entire church community to pray for me for 2 hours?
Thanks!
Posted by: Grammar RWA | October 6, 2008 4:56 AM
Come on, Nick. We all know that only sinners get cystic fibrosis.
Posted by: clinteas | October 6, 2008 4:58 AM
Nick G,
could you shut up with your reality BS mate,Im trying to get myself a date here for dogs sake !
Posted by: Kel | October 6, 2008 5:00 AM
FalsePosted by: Dana | October 6, 2008 5:02 AM
clinteas....
What does that say about my God??? My God is always there for you. But, he will not force you to serve him. He is there for you when you decide to accept him. That says a lot about my God. He is also your God even though you choose not to claim him. He actually did make you and the world you live in which declares him to be your God, however, he will not force you to believe in him or serve him. I'm not a religious fanatic but I saw this topic and it captured my attention because so many people deny God after all he has done for everyone of us.
Posted by: Yahweh, Lord of Hosts | October 6, 2008 5:04 AM
See, when I hold a flamethrower to your head and say "serve me or die," that's just good old coercion. Not force.
Posted by: MH | October 6, 2008 5:07 AM
Mike #37 wrote "I love poll smashing!! i know its pointless, but i always imagine some religious people seeing the results and being shocked"
I don't think it is pointless. The credulous are very suggestible, they are prone to appeals to authority, and they don't think critically. Although an internet poll is not going to influence the people of the reality based community, it may influence the sheeple of the fantasy based community.
Posted by: aleph | October 6, 2008 5:09 AM
@ Jim Harrison
1. Not all postmodernists call themselves that way, but there's no point in objecting to applying this concept to all of them just because they think it doesn't apply. They might be wrong, might they not?
2. Yes, devising a fictitious epistemology might be fun if a. it is actually funny, and b. you do it in a responsible fashion. But when you promote the postmodern (mis)understanding of science, which is basically a cargo cult, in the public sphere, the results are disastrous. Bruno Latour has already recognized this, and he has attempted to apologize:
Is it enough to say that we did not really mean what we meant?
For more information about what this 'fun' really means in practice:
Religious Fundamentalisms, Modernist and Postmodernist
Postmodernism and Pseudoscience
Finally, you remind me that there have been people who satisfied my definition of postmodernism in previous centuries. Yes, this is correct. As a matter of fact, the oldest known postmodernists were the famous Sophists of Ancient Greece. Nietzsche, too, became akin to a postmodernist once his syphilis entered the third stage, and he started having will-to-power delusions of grandeur. Adorno, too, was just as epistemophobic as later postmodernists (he was also screemingly ignorant when it came to science and jazz - on which he also published a couple of stupid articles).
Finally, you insist the Enlightenment is hard to define. Yes, obviously, like all other movements, currents, and historic periods. However, this does not an argument for scepticism make.
As for Positivism, I consider it the most intelligent, humane, and beneficent philosophy that has ever existed. Just because a bunch of epistemophobic cowards can't live up to it doesn't make it any less admirable.
Posted by: Grammar RWA | October 6, 2008 5:09 AM
Kel, that blockquote bonanza makes for a delightful piece of free verse.
Posted by: Wowbagger | October 6, 2008 5:13 AM
Dana, #66:
Prove it. Or, at the very least, explain to us how you would tell if your god wasn't there - because I'd love to know what the difference is.
Posted by: clinteas | October 6, 2008 5:15 AM
Dana,
Just to clarify,
I assume you refer to your brand of the judeo-christian god in your post? Or which god are we talking about here? You sound anglo-american,so I assume you are not talking about Allah here,or any other god,since if you were born in Tehran or Islamabad,thats the god you would be worshipping or thanking for your perfect body.
//He is also your God even though you choose not to claim him. He actually did make you and the world you live in//
My god is a guy called Luca Toni.He didnt make the world,but he scores lots of goals.I was made by a catholic girl who didnt know contraception and a guitar player,to make a stand against my grandmas oppressive catholicism.So yeah,you might say god was involved.
Posted by: Pimientita | October 6, 2008 5:16 AM
Yea, I've heard that line before. Buy me a drink and maybe we can go over the finer points of our miraculous bodies...
Seriously tho, yes our bodies are amazing. But they are far from perfect and without modern medicine, I would not be here today. My mother would have died in childbirth (I and both of my siblings were born through cesarean sections). Even if she didn't I would have died from having dermoid tumors in my ovaries at 21. The "miracle" of my life can be attributed to untold generations of ancestral organisms who managed to survive and (more recently) the science and medicine that humans discovered and utilized for our benefit.
Have you thanked your doctor lately? How about the university that trained him/her? Have you donated any money to help fund the scientific research that might save your life one day?
Or do you just pray? Fucking useless. My born again aunt and her husband and friends prayed day in and day out for me while I was immobilized for a month waiting for my insurance company to approve the surgery I needed to remove the 3 dermoid tumors I had which cut off most of the circulation to my lower body. Guess what...they only got bigger. It was the surgery which helped. Not the prayers.
My nephew would be dead without modern medicine (born 2+ months premature at 2.1 pounds).
Both of my parents would be long dead without modern medicine (dad had a cyst on his brain and my mom has diabetes...ooooh and they're both atheists).
So, yes, our bodies are "miracles," but of natural selection. And many of us are still around due to the "miracle" of modern medicine. The majority of my immediate family would not have existed 100 years ago no matter how many prayers were said. I thank the scientists and doctors who have made my life and the lives of those I love possible. I give my time and money to further scientific progress and help people in need. Exclaiming that my body is a miracle and lifting my hands up to an imaginary sky fairy does nothing. Keep doing it if you want to, but don't pretend that you are a better person if you do so.
Posted by: Dana | October 6, 2008 5:18 AM
Wowbagger, #71:
I know my God is always here for me. I have never known the experience of him not being here for me so I can't really reply to your question. I can't answer how I would feel if he weren't here because I have never known the experience. I can tell you that I received a miraculous healing when I was sixteen months old. My mother has a remarkable testimony that she shares with others. I have no choice but to believe in miracles because I truly had the experience in my own life as a child. My family members witnessed, my doctors witnessed it, and the entire hospital staff attending me witnessed it. You can't argue with facts.
Posted by: MH | October 6, 2008 5:20 AM
Godbot #66 wrote "My God is always there for you. But, he will not force you to serve him. He is there for you when you decide to accept him. That says a lot about my God."
And 'he' will torture unbelievers for eternity. What does that say about your god? Sounds more like a Mafia protection racket. You don't have to worship/pay, but if you don't, say goodbye to your kneecaps.
What does it say about you that you would worship such a character?
And if you had been raised in another culture (Hindu, for instance), wouldn't you be just as adamant that Ganesha existed?
Posted by: KiwiInOz | October 6, 2008 5:21 AM
Just added my vote to the 50-odd-thousand saying no to miracles.
Posted by: Yahweh, Lord of Hosts | October 6, 2008 5:22 AM
Sorry, it wasn't me. Must have been Baal. I was trying to kill you, actually.
"Happy is the one who takes your babies and smashes them against the rocks!" -- Psalm 137:9
So saith the Lord.
Posted by: MH | October 6, 2008 5:24 AM
#74 = perfect example of brainwashing.
Posted by: Kel | October 6, 2008 5:30 AM
What the hell happened there?!? So if God is all you've experienced, how is that distinguishable from God not being there? Wouldn't your God, simply be, reality?Posted by: Dana | October 6, 2008 5:30 AM
Clinteas....
I should have you converted by now. You want to see my body yet you worship Luca Toni...not a good mix. LOL. You're funny. And your mother knew not a contraceptive nor the guitar player, however he must have been good looking. You owe her a big one for not knowing a contraceptive. You're here and you're alive and well. Actually, I serve Jesus, the one and only forever living God who made the universe and all within and without. I am American born and raised, actually in Arkansas. But, I am not a hillbilly. I am college educated and life educated as well. College does not teach religion, however, life does. However, you must have an accepting mind to be able to know and trust God. You must also have experiences that support your belief and I have had many.
Posted by: Yahweh, Lord of Hosts | October 6, 2008 5:30 AM
Yeah buddy, what of it?
You don't like it, you can try your luck with another of the Sons of El.
Posted by: Yahweh, Lord of Hosts | October 6, 2008 5:36 AM
Well said, my child.
They listen carefully, but do not understand, watch closely, but learn nothing. I have hardened the hearts of these people. I plug their ears and shut their eyes. That way, they will not see with their eyes, nor hear with their ears, nor understand with their hearts and turn to me for healing.
Posted by: clinteas | October 6, 2008 5:38 AM
Dana,
my email is terminate111 at the hot place(no,not that one) in case you want to say hi.
//You want to see my body yet you worship Luca Toni.//
How can I worship your body if I havent seen it yet?
//Actually, I serve Jesus, the one and only forever living God who made the universe and all within and without//
Says who?
//I am American born and raised, actually in Arkansas//
Why am I not surprised?
//You must also have experiences that support your belief and I have had many.//
NDE's? Say it aint so,Kenny !!!
Posted by: Dana | October 6, 2008 5:39 AM
Kel, I have already said my God is real. He is Reality. College education (and Tom Cruize) are misleading so many minds. QUESTION: Am I the only Christian on here this morning?
Posted by: Wowbagger | October 6, 2008 5:40 AM
Dana wrote:
Why do you think your god healed you when he lets so many other children die? Are your parents are the most devout and faithful people in the world? Would you say you had more people (or more faithful people) praying for you than pray for the children who do die?
What did you do to deserve what so many millions of others did not get?
If your god did exist he could, at best, be described as capricious; at worst, a heartless, manipulative monster. If your god did exist I would no more worship him than I would a great white shark who, for some reason, chose not to eat a random surfer.
Posted by: Dana | October 6, 2008 5:41 AM
Clinteas...
My mom always taught me to never make the first move...LOL. However, you can yahoo me at iscdana1 and we can continue our discussion. You've been a hoot.
Posted by: Pimientita | October 6, 2008 5:43 AM
Like what?
Posted by: Kel | October 6, 2008 5:46 AM
And I already said he isn't. Unless you have some evidence, I'm sticking with the null hypothesis. http://www.fstdt.com/fundies/comments.aspx?q=32303Posted by: clinteas | October 6, 2008 5:47 AM
*Loves Pharyngula*
Posted by: Dana | October 6, 2008 5:48 AM
Wowbagger...
You are asking me to explain things that I can only explain to God believing people because people like you only bash me when I reply. I would also like to ask you something. Who do you believe made your eyes to see, your ears to hear, your nose to smell, your tongue to taste, your heart to pump your blood, your kidneys to filter, your brain to think, your nerves to send messages, and everything else within you to work so perfectly and in order?
I cannot address the reason God does not heal some people. I can only imagine that he has a reason for them on the other side if they are a believer in Jesus. If they do not believe and refuse to believe, he has no obligation to heal them. He said if you will ask in "my name" I will save the sick. His name is Jesus. You must be a believer to receive these things from God. If you are a believer and God chooses to let you die, I can only imagine he has plans for you in heaven. If you do not believe in God and heaven, what hope for the afterlife do you have? I can't imagine not believing. That would be a total torture.
Posted by: Yahweh, Lord of Hosts | October 6, 2008 5:48 AM
I am who am.
Also, I am war. Like I said, Sabaoth.
Life is competition, pain, and then death.
Desire is suffering.