…and this is a 
Possummomma has gone silent
Category: Godlessness • Weblogs
Posted on: October 12, 2008 8:40 AM, by PZ Myers
Many of us were fans of Possummomma and her blog, Atheist in a Mini-van. She was a passionate writer, struggling to make ends meet with her family, coping with lupus, and also having to deal with a lot of anti-atheist-bigotry in her community and online. Well, they finally got to her: she's gone offline and has put her blog under password protection, all because of some extreme harassment and accusations from, believe it or not, Christian fans of a dopey reality TV show. It's a long, sordid, complicated, ugly story which I'm not going to repeat here, sinc The Calladus Blog has covered it thoroughly. The short and simple summary:
Venomous Christians, threats, and stalkers. Enough was enough. Possummomma has been libeled and attacked online, and stalked in real life. This isn't good for her family, or for herself. Stress aggravates the symptoms of SLE, and who needs that? This is one more drama, and P-momma just doesn't have the energy to deal with it. She's offline now, and the rabid Gosselin cult can high-five the fundamentalist preachers with a hearty, "Well Done!"
Possummomma's co-blogger also supports the explanation. I have to sympathize — trying to fight the insanity of religion that afflicts our culture can wear one out, especially when there are bigger personal issues of family and health to deal with — but let's all hope an opportunity to catch her breath and get a rest will be sufficient to restore an excellent writer to her role as a public advocate.
Comments
Posted by: moo | October 12, 2008 8:51 AM
Sad, but understandable I suppose. Here in Canada I can so casually express my lack-of-belief that I wonder if I'm fully grasping the magnitude of anti-atheist sentiments in the USA. Is it really that different? Apparently so ...
Posted by: steve8282 | October 12, 2008 8:51 AM
christian love strikes again.
Posted by: Kel | October 12, 2008 8:58 AM
It's quite disgusting, it's amazing what deplorable acts people can do in the name of an all-loving deity. I guess all we can do is await the apologists to come and justify this act, then have the moderates turn up to try some damage control. It'll all spiral out in a tedium of predictability, with none leaving here any the wiser.
It's not a good idea to throw the baby out with the bathwater, but there's no point drowning trying to save a baby that just doesn't want to get out of the tub.
Posted by: alex | October 12, 2008 9:00 AM
it's awful to hear that. i didn't read possummomma, but i can imagine how bad it would be forcefully silenced. much sympathy to her.
Posted by: MaryM | October 12, 2008 9:20 AM
Oh my. Well, I hate to say it, but it is surprising that more atheists haven't been harrassed into silence. Almost every other story I come across has some fundie gnashing their teeth and vomiting threats from their anus of love.
FSMDude (youtube eucharist desecrations) had a lot of personal details posted online last week in the hopes that some other wingnut will do something unpleasant with it and now this. Well all I can say is FUCK THEM!!! It makes me more and more militant as each day goes by.
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=9rNzM2HsUjk
Posted by: vjack | October 12, 2008 9:35 AM
And if she ever decides to come back, even sporadically, I know many of us would be honored to have her guest post on our blogs anytime she feels like it. I certainly would.
Posted by: BobC | October 12, 2008 9:44 AM
Venomous Christians, threats, and stalkers.
I'm not surprised. A long time ago I noticed Christians are assholes.
Posted by: SEF | October 12, 2008 10:05 AM
Ah, another example of that true-christian love of which they're so proud (which is itself a true-christian irony).
Posted by: Ranson | October 12, 2008 10:20 AM
This really saddens me. I always greatly enjoyed PM's writing, and she was a great example of how "regular people" can be godless, not just librul intellectual elitists. Present company included, of course ;)
Posted by: Brendan S | October 12, 2008 10:27 AM
Way to turn the other cheek, Christian assholes.
When I was in college and discovering my unbelief, people kept asking me how I could dislike Christianity. But, anyone who can do this to someone...
Posted by: Doozer | October 12, 2008 10:33 AM
Christianist hooligans went after another woman, eh? I'm shocked...How many of these cowards would stalk a healthy male capable of turning and flattening their noses? Very broad-brush, I know, but, yes, I think it's pretty typical.
Posted by: Enshoku | October 12, 2008 10:55 AM
Wow, just wow. I wondered why she had just vanished out of the blue, and I had a feeling something had tipped her hand. She honestly had put up with far more christian sleaze than most of the people here (PZ doesn't count, he has hate proof armor made out of crackers and ammonite shells), so I guess its no surprise that she would go offline after her children were indirectly threatened, and a couple decided to engage in cyber-stalking at her expense. Still wondering whether or not to take her off my blog list, my darned optimism is telling me not to...
Posted by: Rob the Lurker FCD BMWCCA | October 12, 2008 11:07 AM
This is sad. I've enjoyed p-momma's blog and am sorry to see it taken away, but I'm even sadder about this little "victory" for the agents of intolerance. Those gutless sheeple will feel empowered and step up their efforts to go after anyone who doesn't agree with them.
Posted by: earlgreyrooibos | October 12, 2008 11:11 AM
Enshoku--
I'm still keeping her in my RSS reader for now . . . I know it doesn't look good, but I just can't give up hope!
Posted by: Coffeesh0p | October 12, 2008 11:13 AM
I've just read the Christians' take on this (it's linked to from The Calladus blog post PZ mentions) and I am just completely blown away. The acts they're accusing her of just go to show what twisted, sick minds they have and despite hearing about things like this time and time again I am once again flabbergasted. I reached the end, expecting to see comments blasting the author for her flagrant craziness, and what do I see? A great big old pat on the back for her 'hard work' and 'research'.
Posted by: earlgreyrooibos | October 12, 2008 11:14 AM
Enshoku--
I'm still keeping her in my RSS reader for now . . . I know it doesn't look good, but I just can't give up hope!
Posted by: Coffeesh0p | October 12, 2008 11:17 AM
I've just read the Christians' take on this (it's linked to from The Calladus blog post PZ mentions) and I am just completely blown away. The acts they're accusing her of just go to show what twisted, sick minds they have and despite hearing about things like this time and time again I am once again flabbergasted. I reached the end, expecting to see comments blasting the author for her flagrant craziness, and what do I see? A great big old pat on the back for her 'hard work' and 'research'.
Posted by: Reynold | October 12, 2008 11:20 AM
With what Coffeeshop just posted, it's going to be harder for the average xian to say something like "well, that's not a real Christian that did that...
Bloody hell, the more this kind of thing happens, the more hypocritical they look when they criticize the taliban.
My sympathies to Possummomma and her family. Whether she blogs again or not, I hope she pulls through this.
Posted by: LordJiro | October 12, 2008 11:21 AM
And yet they'll still claim that the big mean atheists are always trying to oppress and silence Christians. This just makes me sick.
Posted by: Sili | October 12, 2008 11:23 AM
I was listening to Private Passions on Radio3 earlier. They had an MP on (:checks: Nick Clegg). After a lovely piece of Bach he casually mentions that he doesn't have any faith, himself.
Guess what? My computer didn't explode at this horrendous display of militant atheism!
Posted by: RideThePig | October 12, 2008 11:37 AM
@MaryM
I wonder how the fucker got FSMdude's personal info. Just another lovely example of 'christian' love I suppose. Someday, if there's justice, this sort of religiously motivated stupidity will die out.
And it's a good thing I wasn't drinking anything because 'anus of love' woulda cost me a new keyboard. :)
Posted by: Savage | October 12, 2008 11:40 AM
If the fundies were so sure we are going to burn in Hell, why try to silence us? If I were them I would revel in the thought of seeing us with Lucifer. The reason for their acts is simply because they also don't believe in all this religious crap, but maybe, just maybe, we could smuggle with their minds for them to admit it, so: "Off with their heads!"
Posted by: raven | October 12, 2008 11:42 AM
Been through the threat cycle myself. Cyber death threats are a felony. If you turn hard evidence over the local police and FBI cybercrimes division and push them hard they will investigate credible threats.
The FBI eventually caught one group and charged them with felonies. It still had an effect. I no longer have much of an internet presence and everything is anonymous to the max.
I also learned what absolute cowards the internet stalkers and threateners are. When confronted with law enforcement and courts, they turn into puddles of jello.
Posted by: Savage | October 12, 2008 11:44 AM
If the fundies were so sure we are going to burn in Hell, why try to silence us? If I were them I would revel in the thought of seeing us with Lucifer. The reason for their acts is simply because they also don't believe in all this religious crap, but maybe, just maybe, we could smuggle with their minds for them to admit it, so: "Off with their heads!"
Posted by: Alan B | October 12, 2008 11:44 AM
May I add my sympathies to Possummomma and her family. Not being aware of the atheist blog scene in the USA this is totally new to me.
There are people who call themselves Christians but do not DO Christianity. I do not recognise the Christianity I know about in what is being reported here. Where is love, joy, peace, gentleness, mercy, compassion, self control? If they are absent it is not Christianity, whatever people might call themselves.
But that is no comfort to those who suffer and need compassion and support ...
Posted by: Allt | October 12, 2008 11:57 AM
Poor Possummomma, and my sympathies to her and her family.
This is a shame, really. These people are crazy, and more people should be aware of what happened here.
I didn't read Possummomma, but if it comes back I'm going to.
Posted by: Will K. | October 12, 2008 12:01 PM
If the fundies were so sure we are going to burn in Hell, why try to silence us? If I were them I would revel in the thought of seeing us with Lucifer.
It doesn't make a whole lot of sense, does it? I mean, think about it: if we're right, we're ultimately telling the religious they're wasting their time. If the religious are right, they're telling us we're going to burn in a sulfuric lake and be tortured by demons for eternity. But somehow they're the ones who are offended ...
Posted by: Randomfactor | October 12, 2008 12:04 PM
Shit.
I've met her a few times, and I can state without contradiction that she's a better Christian than most of the people in this theism-rotten town.
Posted by: Kobra | October 12, 2008 12:05 PM
That's bullshit! I bet those xtian morons are stroking each other over this news, but when you put it into perspective ("Hey, we just picked on a lupus-afflicted mother because she doesn't believe our loony religion!"), this is atrocious.
Posted by: Dave | October 12, 2008 12:06 PM
As a peace-loving hippie-freak it pains me to say that I am occasionally moved to thoughts of pre-emptive violence, making me as bad, or worse, than the wingnuts I so revile.
:(
Tie that in with the recent ridiculous comments that have been made at republican party campaign stops and quite frankly I think it's the open-minded, rational, "intellectual elite" that have much, much more to fear.
It's repulsive and embarassing.
Posted by: Theo Bromine | October 12, 2008 12:10 PM
quoth savage: If the fundies were so sure we are going to burn in Hell, why try to silence us?
The thing is, Satan wants to attack the True Christians (TM), and has enlisted the godless mobs as his minions. The poor Christians are just trying to protect their loved ones from the attacks on their faith from those people and things that have been enlisted as Tools of the Devil (TM).
Posted by: Randomfactor | October 12, 2008 12:16 PM
Although I can only guess at how Possummomma stands on the issue of same-sex marriage, I can assure you that you'd mightily piss off the local fundies who've been pulling the same crap on her in Bakersfield by donating to *THIS* cause:
https://secure.ga4.org/01/equalityforall
(And whatever you do, don't sign up any fundies for the mailing list, 'kay?)
Posted by: John Morgan | October 12, 2008 12:19 PM
Like Dave #30 I get enraged to the point of wanting to apply physical violence. And suddenly the benifience of the FSM (blessings be upon him) hits me between the eyes - I'm thinking, and perhaps moving towards behaving, just like these people we despise for doing it.
So they're being human after all. It's just that scientists, atheists, pastafarians, whatever, tend to think through their decisions before carrying out any course of action.
Posted by: TSC | October 12, 2008 12:24 PM
Why can't theotards let their invisible protector do the dirty work? Sounds like Aryan Nations to me. Tards with purpose!
Posted by: Tim Fuller | October 12, 2008 12:25 PM
I used to volunteer as a liberal foil on a rightwing AM drive-time talkshow (WJNT 1180am Kim Wade) here in Jackson, MS. I started coming in on Wednesdays when the local religious expert (aka The Holy Man) did his rapport with the fundie crowd. On one of my early appearances I made the comment that Jesus might have been gay, what with a dozen dudes wandering around in the desert! Talk about lighting up the phones!!
We did a couple more weeks of "The Heathen vrs. The Holy Man" before I tired of it. I continued to do liberal political discourse for a time after that with Kim Wade. For what it's worth, I quit doing it because I felt like my unpaid appearances were probably raising their ratings more than it was worth. You could say I decided to quit doing Fox News before a lot of others decided it wasn't worth it either.
My wife was always nervous and glad I gave up the gig. It never bothered me, but it got kind of creepy when I realized that people were recognizing me (not necessarily reacting in a negative way mind you..) just from the sound of my voice. I reserve the right to return to radio, but will do so only when control of the microphone isn't in the hands of the gestapo and what passes for good debate skill isn't defined by the decibel level of the participant.
One last thing. BREAKING NEWS HERE THAT YOU JUST CAN'T MISS. Granda put in jail through actions of homeowner association upset with his grass.
I bet the prison industrial complex feels immune from the fiscal calamity that is coming to pass. But in the final analysis, folks who have many other bills to pay are going to get tired of paying to keep Grampa in jail for not cutting his grass and their friends and neigbors for smoking it.
Enjoy.
http://digg.com/people/Florida_man_in_jail_because_he_can_t_afford_to_sod_his_lawn
Posted by: Jadehawk | October 12, 2008 12:38 PM
this sucks... i haven't read much of her blog, but I remember it being mentioned before that her kids were threatened. and I can't believe those Christians are congratulations themselves to this! (well ok, I can, but it's still way beyond the pale)
Posted by: Heather | October 12, 2008 12:42 PM
Possummomma- if you are reading this, I would like you to know that you and your family are in my thoughts. It is so sad that you've had to go through this. I hope that knowing that there are those of us out here that support you will give you some strength and make your health issues more manageable.
Posted by: Mena | October 12, 2008 12:44 PM
I too followed the link to the offending blog and found this comment hilarious. It's from one of the ace pseudosleuths, named "betruthful":
Something just wasn't sitting right. I'm a little bit psychic, but I never use it.
That coupled with being obsessed with a reality show sure make these people seem [wink] "normal"!
Posted by: Russell Miller | October 12, 2008 12:58 PM
I'm actually a little more surprised I haven't gotten more stupid people attacking me for my blog - but I think it kind of has to do with tone. I guess there's only so much self-righteousness that you can use in the face of blistering invective. :-)
Posted by: Notagod | October 12, 2008 1:19 PM
Alan B@25,
Right down to your comment expressing denial, the events are in every way exactly christianity. It is the christian way. They are not being hypocrites they are being christians, the plan is in their bibel for any who care to read and understand what the mode of operation is.
Posted by: Jadehawk | October 12, 2008 1:27 PM
oh wow. I just read the crazies' blogpost about this. conspiracy theorists, the lot of them...
Posted by: RN Lee | October 12, 2008 1:28 PM
Personally, my take - after trying to read that eighteen-billion-word explanation and giving up because I have no real reason to care that deeply - is that *all* of these people are best friends with the Drama Llama.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead | October 12, 2008 1:29 PM
If you pin these alleged Xians down as to why the persecute atheists, the words usually come from either the old testament or Paul. They never seem to quote the words of Jebus. I think they should be called on this. If they like to quote the old testament, call them Jews, and if they like to quote Paul, call them Paulians. If they want the term Xian to apply them, they need to quote the proper source.
Posted by: K | October 12, 2008 1:51 PM
This is SO 4th grade schoolyard!
I mean, GROW UP! What we actually have here is a uninteresting blog by a sickly housewife who indecently happens to be an Atheist. Yawn. Oh no wait! Now we have DRAMA! He said that she said that he said that SHE said...oh who CARES! Hey, I can understand that the drama aggravates her sickness. Fine, but this feeding the drama llama after the fact, I mean, HELLO! She closed up shop. It's over. It's done. Nothing to see here, people. Move along.
Posted by: Patricia | October 12, 2008 2:02 PM
This is not proper true christian behavior. Attacking this poor woman and her family is wrong. She should be shunned. Her children should be prayed for, and her husband needs a good talking to by the church fathers for his failure as pater familias. If he then doesn't beat some sense into his wife, he gets shunned as well. But the children still need to be prayed for, in hopes that they will turn to gawd. That is what my old death cult does.
I still laugh my ass off every time I meet one of them and they cross the street or leave the store to avoid me!
This story just adds one more grievance for me to hold against the godly. Despicable bastards!
Posted by: H.H. | October 12, 2008 2:11 PM
Online stalking and harassment is a crime. I hope Possummomma is looking into pressing charges.
Posted by: llewelly | October 12, 2008 2:26 PM
From the post on Calladus:
Once again, internet illiteracy plays a significant (although not decisive) role in yet another internet tragedy. When will the computer industry admit the idea that 'users shouldn't need to know anything' is a dangerous delusion?
Posted by: Michele | October 12, 2008 2:58 PM
Thanks for letting us know what happened. I too will miss reading Possummomma. I myself didn't renounce my religious upbringing until after I had raised my children so they got significant indoctination into during their childhoods. However,I am now helping someone else raise their children so I have a second chance to influence a new generation. These particular kids have taught me that children are actually natrual atheists and much more adept at questioning things that don't make sense than many adults. I will miss Possummamma's insights but I am glad she is doing what she needs to.
Posted by: Kagehi | October 12, 2008 3:00 PM
Patricia.. Try learning some history. There has never **been** one single instance in the history of Christianity in which burning your neighbor, either because you didn't like something about them, or you wanted their property, etc., wasn't the #1 path for Christians to "spread the faith". It is certainly not in **any** way contradicted by the OT, and there are parts of the NT that condone this kind of idiot BS too. At best, all you do have is some claim that, "Well, Jesus wouldn't have done that!", but... for fracking sakes, if you really bloody believe that, then why don't you throw out all the useless damn crap in the Bible that does condone or demand this stuff, and call yourselves Jesuits, or something (though I am sure there are nuts claiming that too, who are just as insane), not Christians. Because, so long as you tie both of you feet to the same stupid anchor, and in the process "support", how ever unintentionally, the 85%+ of Christians that **do** pull this crap, even if only in very narrow cases, and the much smaller number that do it ***all the time***, you are not doing yourself, or your claims that its not "Christian" for them to do this, any favors, the anchor will drag "all of you" down with it.
Its real simple. If you are not like these people, stop claiming that your, right now apparently tiny, minority of halfway rational people, who don't support either the level of insanity seen here, or all the quack, irrational, stupid "traditional" bullshit that actually harms, instead of helping, and would "never" pull this BS, are the "real thing (TM)" and everyone else isn't. They say the same damn thing, and the fact is that 95% of everything in the Bible, including some of the more insane rantings in parts of the NT, all suggest they are closer to the mark, with respect to the cultish stupidity it teaches, than you are. Its the number one reason why we all reject(ed) it as, if not more, forcefully than most of the rest of the religions floating around the world. There is, absurdly, no way to justify claiming to believe in the Bible, and also believe that it is some sort of story/rule book, intended to help people become nice, friendly, helpful, love filled, "good" people. If it does, its because humanity made them so, not some book that waffles between irrational sociopathy and the tamer scenes from Woodstock.
Posted by: Jadehawk | October 12, 2008 3:17 PM
Kagehi, your sarcasm-meter is broken. Note the "That is what my old death cult does". it was a parody of Creepy Christians
Posted by: Kagehi | October 12, 2008 3:18 PM
You know.. I can't help but think that some "real Christians", would have, presuming the whole Fishes and Loaves thing had any truth to it, would have been the guy sitting on the end of the beach, shaking their head at the whining of all the other hungry people, based solely on the presumption that Jesus would "find a way" to feed everyone, while really just wanting to not have to do anything about the problem, yet willing to pat themselves on the back for being "right" about it. Too busy being "not like those people", to figure out that, "those people", aren't going to stop being assholes *unless* it no longer profits them to act that way. And how is taking passing swipes at people who point out that Christian is often synonymous with lying idiot, then doing not much more than chastising the loonies for not being "nice enough", making it unprofitable for them to continue to be lying idiots?
Posted by: Kagehi | October 12, 2008 3:22 PM
So apparently is the comment system. lol But its so damn hard to tell now, and I.. well, frankly, don't have time to remember every single person that ever posted irony, sarcasm, etc. on here. lol Maybe we need like.. some system where PZ makes the names of "known" posters a different color, depending on if they are one of our own, or one of the cranks? lol
Posted by: watercat | October 12, 2008 3:28 PM
Guess we lost, huh.
Posted by: strangest brew | October 12, 2008 3:46 PM
It appears that xian intolerance is reaching epidemic proportions.
The only reason seems to be that they feel under threat of extinction as a cult and are fighting for the survival of their cult deity...so much for not worshipping graven images...what exactly do they think they are doing.
It is the sane with the general condemnation of things magical...like Harry Potter or the Golden Compass books...they condemn the magic but accept as central to their faith the transubstantiation of wine and crackers into jebus.
Or that whispering to an invisible friend actually is a sane and wondrous trick...
Or gabbering inane nonsense words in tongues is a gift...maybe they should try talking 'parceltongue'...might be more rewarding...
Totally double standards...and their standard of intolerance hatred and bile is above and beyond being faithful...it is insane simple like so...
totally barking and infantile the lot of 'em...
Posted by: ThinkingApe | October 12, 2008 3:53 PM
The character Dionisio said, in Louis de'Berniere's book The Trouble Offspring of Cardinal Guzman, "Tolerance only ever prospers where people have grown weary of bogus certainties".
Posted by: ThinkingApe | October 12, 2008 3:58 PM
That's "Troublesome", not "Trouble".
Posted by: AJ Milne | October 12, 2008 4:00 PM
Ah, you'll know they are Christians by their love...
Well, I hereby resolve to spend a little more time mocking said superstition, anyway. Seems only right.
Posted by: Scott M | October 12, 2008 4:17 PM
"Reason is not automatic. It cannot conquer those who deny it"
Posted by: robhoofd | October 12, 2008 4:41 PM
Those cowardly, pathetic, clueless little terrorists. And all the time, while carrying out their scare tactics, while stalking, making threats, and preaching fire and brimstone, they still try to pretend to be the little boy crying in the playground because the big mean atheists took his marbles.
Hooray for another silenced voice of reason, courtesy of Jesus Fucking Christ.
Posted by: Carlie | October 12, 2008 4:59 PM
I think in a lot of ways this one is even worse than the normal "Shut down the atheists" attacks. Those are at least overt, and clear about their hatred. This is more of the insidious hidden type. The attacks weren't about her atheism per se, but a bizarre case of mistaken identity and conspiracy theory, all aided and abetted by the underlying idea that oh, she's an atheist, so of course we can't trust her, of course she's more likely to be a bad person. It's similar to saying you're tolerant to people's faces but just happening not to hire the person with the more ethnic name, even though their resume is better. That makes it easier for those people to claim that there's nothing wrong with them, because they're not bigoted like the rabid overt types.
Posted by: Mena | October 12, 2008 5:23 PM
Carlie, you may appreciate this. The hill folk are real but the video makes pretty much the same (sarcastic, in their case) comment that you made:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JFSSvtaaF-c
Posted by: Ian | October 12, 2008 5:29 PM
Thanks for not giving up, PZ.
Posted by: Heather | October 12, 2008 5:39 PM
This whole harassment issue has got me wondering. What can we as individuals do to support atheist bloggers or other "out" atheists who experience harassment? Every time harassment works to silence an atheist (or any other minority member), society is weakened. It would be nice to support them so the "last straw" doesn't happen. Does anyone have any ideas?
Posted by: Ichthyic | October 12, 2008 5:45 PM
K at #44 does an interesting concern troll spin.
I thought concern trolls were supposed to actually feign concern?
I mean it's obvious that's the category of his post by definition (a bit of concern trolling), but I can't recall seeing a more callous bit of "concern" trolling recently.
Is there a better way to label it?
unconcern troll?
Posted by: Ichthyic | October 12, 2008 5:53 PM
another "unconcern troll" at #42 has the audacity to post that, while at the same time, posting this bit of trivial pursuit on their own blog:
http://vee-ecks.livejournal.com/155869.html
because, of course everyone really cares who screws who in Hollywood.
*rolleyes*
I swear, why are these unconcern trolls even bothering to post in this thread?
Were they actually personally involved in what happened to P-mama and now feel guilty?
or are they just moronic 12 year olds who glommed on to this story from somewhere else?
Posted by: surfnet | October 12, 2008 6:42 PM
I swear, why are these unconcern trolls even bothering to post in this thread?
I notice they were both drive-by comments. To dismiss the topic out of hand as boring, trite or "drama" is to allow them to comment without investing in it and without having to defend it.
In other words, they are cowards.
Posted by: Azkyroth | October 12, 2008 6:47 PM
It's funny, isn't it, how this is about the only thing the "moderate" Christians ever say or do when these sorts of stories pop up?
Posted by: Zel | October 12, 2008 6:54 PM
PZ- Thanks for posting this.
P-Momma, what can I say....I read her blog and enjoyed the the thoughtful posts she had on life with a family, making due, and trying to cope in an xtian controlled world. I wish these people actually looked at themselves first, for the hatred and lies that they attribute to her and other non theists. I and my family are sending good thoughts your way P-mamma. I hope you do come back to the blogging world, for me and the rest of the sane world to enjoy.
Zel
Posted by: Bronze Dog | October 12, 2008 7:25 PM
I was worried something like this happened when I noticed the protective layer. And people wonder why I equate "Christianity" with moral relativism, censorship, and barbarism.
Posted by: Alan B | October 12, 2008 8:06 PM
Re: Notagod #40, Azkyroth #67 and my #25
"With what Coffeeshop just posted, it's going to be harder for the average xian to say something like "well, that's not a real Christian that did that...
It's funny, isn't it, how this is about the only thing the "moderate" Christians ever say or do when these sorts of stories pop up?"
Perhaps it just shows I am naive but what do you expect me to do or to say?
The actions of these people appear to be illegal (I am not a lawyer) and definitely immoral. As I said before, I do not recognize it as being the Christianity that Jesus taught. I do not support or condone in any way shape or form what has been said or done.
I guess I live about 3000 to 5000 miles away, in the Midlands of the UK. I am not able to visit with the family (even assuming I would be welcome). Coming from a different culture I would probably not have the right words to help anyway. Certainly, I do not recognise the near hatred expressed by some on both sides.
I have expressed my genuine concern. If you don't like it that's fine. If you think I should do more then give me a hint. I am not a passing, unconcerned troll (although to be fair no one has suggested that of me - for that, many thanks). I could perfectly well have said, "Why bother?" and "passed by on the other side" and ignored the post because I had a pretty good idea of the reaction I and others would receive.
But I still feel for Possummomma and her family.
Posted by: Kel | October 12, 2008 8:13 PM
Isn't that the "no true scotsman" fallacy in a nutshell? You have your own criteria for what being a Christian constitutes, and those who break it are not truly Christian.Just curious, which of the 38,000 sects are true churches of Christ?
Posted by: Kel | October 12, 2008 8:16 PM
I was walking across a bridge one day, and i saw a man standing on the edge, about to jump off. So I ran over and said "stop! don't do it!" "Why shouldn't I?" he said. I said, "Well, there's so much to live for!" He said, "Like what?" I said, "Well...are you religious or atheist?" He said, "Religious." I said, "Me too! Are you christian or buddhist?" He said, "Christian." I said, "Me too! Are you catholic or protestant?" He said, "Protestant." I said, "Me too! Are you episcopalian or baptist?" He said, "Baptist!" I said, "Wow! Me too! Are you baptist church of god or baptist church of the lord?" He said, "Baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you original baptist church of god, or are you reformed baptist church of god?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god!" I said, "Me too! Are you reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1879, or reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915?" He said, "Reformed baptist church of god, reformation of 1915!" I said, "Die, heretic scum", and pushed him off. - Emo Phillips
Posted by: Martin | October 12, 2008 8:24 PM
Possummomma has been a really good friend, lending a lot of support to me in my recent (and ongoing) legal action against a creationist who libeled me. Over at the Atheist Experience I've started up an open "messages for Possummomma" thread, here.
Posted by: Dave | October 12, 2008 8:56 PM
Perhaps. At the same time it's pretty important to recognize that moderate Christians, whatever their stripe, disown the type of behavior that shut down Pmomma's blog.
I disagree with the bulk of Christianity, but I also don't take kindly to people calling my parents some of the things Christians are called out-of-hand: they may be misguided (IMO) on some issues, but they're good people, I love them, and people that talk shit about them, even in generalities, deserve my umbrage.
Posted by: Kel | October 12, 2008 9:13 PM
Isn't that half the problem though? The moderates facilitate this kind of extremist behaviour by their abolition of responsibility. Maybe it stems out of the unthinkable alterative - "If they can be so committed to a course of action that is built on belief, then how am I any different?", and from there it may become necessary to disown them as not really Christian because if they take that responsibility of action the entire worldview comes crashing down.Posted by: progressive homeschooler | October 12, 2008 9:15 PM
Coffeeshop, it's my understanding that comments on the xtian blog are moderated. All those agreeing with them get through, while posts supporting P-Momma are not approved.
I'll miss her blog and wish her and her family well. I also hold out hope that she'll eventually return to the blogosphere.
Posted by: Aerik | October 12, 2008 10:22 PM
Thank you! Thank you, thank you, THANK YOU for passing this story on. Whether or not it's a result of when I sent you the link via twitter or not, still, thanks.
Posted by: Anton Mates | October 12, 2008 11:45 PM
How are they abdicating responsibility by arguing that this behaviour isn't actually Christian? Alan, for instance, gave his definition of Christianity and argued that these assholes don't live up to it. Which is, so far as I can see, correct. Presumably they do live up to their own definition of Christianity, but what can liberal Christians do about that? Sue for copyright infringement?
As long as liberal Christians make strong arguments against the religious right--which plenty of them do, like Slacktivist and John Spong and Jimmy Carter--then I think that they're shouldering just as much responsibility as any of us. And it's entirely reasonable for them to argue that liberal Christian behavior is more in line with Jesus' teachings than fundie behavior. I don't think a strict follower of Jesus would behave in a way consistent with any modern subculture, but I do think the liberal Christians generally get a little closer. And if some other Christians recognize that and shift their own positions accordingly, hey, great.
Sure, Christians can't make as strong an argument against fundie nuttery as we can, and far too many don't try. But some still make pretty good arguments, and they deserve encouragement IMO.
Posted by: Kel | October 13, 2008 12:02 AM
Firstly, that's the point of the No True Scotsman fallacy, they define what they think Christianity is and anyone who doesn't live up to it isn't really Christian. What this does is negates the value of their condemnation, they fail to recognise that there are people who in the name of their religion and while being members of that religion do deplorable things. Saying they aren't really part of the religion is trying to deflect what they believe from cricisism, they are in effect protecting their own beliefs from criticism by trying distance that bad acts can happen in the name of belief.I'm all for moderates standing up to the extremists, what I'm condemning is the shirking of responsibility of religion in this case by the use of the "not a real Christian" argument. Can you see the difference? I'm against the moderates who pass off the extremists in the same manner as the extremists criticise the moderates. In each case, there is a heap of namecalling on not being a true Christian, which involves each group setting their own definitions on what Christianity entails. Which is where the anecdote on post #72 comes in.
Agreed.
Posted by: Anton Mates | October 13, 2008 1:40 AM
But it's only a fallacy when they change the definition of the label mid-argument. E.g., they start out using "Scotsman" to mean "guy from Scotland" and end up using it to mean "guy from Scotland who also holds some set of values I find characteristic of Scots."
If a believer consistently defines "Christian" to mean "one who follows the precepts of Christ," then there's no fallacy. By that definition, there are people who call themselves Christian but simply don't actually act that way.
Not if they make it quite clear that the people they're criticizing do identify as Christians, as Alan did.
In that case, the liberal Christians' whole point is that those people are doing horrible things in the name of Christianity but aren't actually behaving in a Christian manner.
And there's nothing wrong with that...if they have good reason to think that their own beliefs wouldn't logically result in the extremists' bad behavior. Because their beliefs, and those of the extremists, are not the same.By analogy, I call myself an atheist, and I wouldn't hesitate too much before calling myself a Darwinist. Does that make me responsible for the Chinese government's actions in the name of "Marxist atheism," or assorted rich bastards' actions in the name of "social Darwinism?" No. The unpleasant things they do/did do not follow from atheism or Darwinism as I define it. I'm not avoiding responsibility if I point that out.
How else can they stand up to the extremists? The extremists claim to be justified by Christian principles. As Christians, the moderates obviously have to start by arguing that that claim is false.
What's wrong with that? If the moderates champion a definition like "doing what Jesus told us to do," and the extremists champion a definition like "believing that the Bible is literally true in every detail" or "believing that everything the Pope says ex cathedra is absolute truth," terrific. Those are clearly different definitions, and the rest of us can observe that the latter definitions lead to much nastier behavior.
I don't really see that anecdote illustrating a restrictive definition of Christianity--faux-Emo's happy to call both Catholics and Protestants Christian, for example. It's just that he only has loyalty to his own particular kind of Christianity.
Posted by: Kel | October 13, 2008 2:00 AM
No, there is a preconceived definition for what a Christian is. Basically followers are defining their religion by their own values, rather than using the societal definitions. Which is fine, but you can't just take your own standards and apply them to society as a whole. It doesnt work that way. There's nothing wrong with an individual doing that, but again, they are interacting in an external environment where there are preconceived definition. Terms are not subjective, I can understand what they are doing and why, I just disagree with it.Say some drunk dickheads go around and commit assaults. Now someone comes out against alcohol because of it. Now as someone who isn't violent or aggressive when intoxicated, would it be okay for me to say that they aren't real drunks because I could imagine how having that toxicant in my system would lead to violence? This is basically what the no true christian argument is doing here. It's distancing themselves from the negative effects of certain individuals where there is a motivating factor, and it's really hard to deny that christianity was a factor in the above attacks just as alcohol was a factor in the hypotheticals. They can argue the merits of Christianity to the extremists, instead of distancing themselves from the extremists to a non religious