Pharyngula

One reassuring bit of news about Obama…

…he uses a Mac laptop. We have something in common!

One curious fact at that link:

Clinton sent a grand total of 2 emails while in the White House – which was two more than Bush.

These people live in a strange and different world than mine.

Comments

  1. #1 Cyde Weys
    November 11, 2008

    It’s remarkably hard to believe that GWB never sent any emails. My parents are older than him and emails are essential part of both their personal and professional lives. How has politics managed to hold out against email when everything else has embraced it? Is politics not the game with the biggest stakes?

  2. #2 TheNaturalist
    November 11, 2008

    I used to work inside the federal government. We had a saying:

    “If you put something in writing, it lives forever. If you put it in an email, everybody has it.”

  3. #3 I am so wise
    November 11, 2008

    Didn’t traitor turned Republican nominee for a VA senate seat Ollie North get busted using email?

  4. #4 Paul Burnett
    November 11, 2008

    Bush’s “laptop” is neither a Mac nor a PC. It’s red, and the only thing he’s learned to do with it is he can erase the screen by holding it upside down and shaking it.

  5. #5 'Tis Himself
    November 11, 2008

    Some people are not technologically inclined. My boss has to be shown how to use the “Out of Office” feature in Outlook every time he takes a day off.

  6. #6 Jaknelaps
    November 11, 2008

    A little off topic, but I don’t know where else to ask this:

    Does anyone know anything about the book “Evolution and/or Creation: an Islamic Perspective” by T.O. Shanavas? The author is coming to the University of Wisconsin on Thursday Nov. 13th and I would like to be able to grill him with at least one penetrating question.

  7. #7 Jeremy
    November 11, 2008

    Sounds like Sarah Palin would still have been an improvement in at least one area :P

  8. #8 Hilary
    November 11, 2008

    Executives don’t create content they are presented with ideas, they ask questions, the request analyses and make decisions. The president is this on steroids, decision makers are typically readers and talkers (we know which camp Bush stuck to) the amount of time a president would take naming and saving files is time better spent thinking or decompressing, it’s that tight. If a president emails, it is to their secretary who reformat/fixes/archives the document then sends it on. Y’all are fairly smart folks, does this really surprise you?

  9. #9 Sven DiMilo
    November 11, 2008

    yeah, but Obama’s got h4xx0r 5killzz

  10. #10 Dan
    November 11, 2008

    Aside from the aforementioned problem of e-mail leaking too easily, I imagine the president doesn’t send e-mail for the same reason he doesn’t carry a wallet: why would he need to? There’s always someone on hand to take care of the petty details.

  11. #11 Carlie
    November 11, 2008

    But GW was savvy enough to declare all White House email correspondence off-limits to freedom of information, and to “accidentally” have thousands of those emails destroyed. Something was going on there, even if it wasn’t directly from the account of HaImPrez(at)yahoo.

  12. #12 Ryan Cunningham
    November 11, 2008

    I’m sure there’s some snarky comment to be made here about cults… but I’m a huge Obama supporter and I’m writing this on a MacBook Pro. ;)

  13. #13 Joel
    November 11, 2008

    Anything of value should not be written in electronic mail, or stored on a networked computer. Only a moron President would consider using any networked systems.

    Sophisticated hackers infiltrated the computer systems of both Barack Obama and John McCain during the US presidential campaign and stole a “serious amount of files” in what appears to have been an intelligence-gathering operation by Russia or China, it has emerged.

    http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/world/us_and_americas/us_elections/article5105027.ece

    US officials say Chinese hackers have raided White House email archives multiple times, according to a report.

    The Financial Times reports some people it describes as “US government cyber experts” suspect the raids were sponsored by the Chinese regime.

    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/11/07/white_house_email_china/

  14. #14 B.T. Murtagh
    November 11, 2008

    Why do you find that reassuring? Would you become nervous if he were using a non-Apple computer? I find it reassuring that he has a decent understanding of technology, but why does his brand choice affect your anxiety level? If he were a Linux user, would you be more or less nervous? Inquiring minds want to know!

  15. #15 Nero Null
    November 11, 2008

    Eh well, nobody’s perfect ;)

  16. #16 H.H.
    November 11, 2008

    The mob doesn’t use email either, and probably for the same reasons.

  17. #17 BobC
    November 11, 2008

    I’m not surprised Obama uses Apple computers. I bet he also uses Google software. I noticed one of his advisors is the CEO of Google, Eric Schmidt.

  18. #18 Annie
    November 11, 2008

    I think that’s what a whole tribe of White House minions would be for. Can’t say that I would send emails in a presidential capacity…. you would so have to trust who you were sending it to, and even then oy, the security risks.

    That being said, last year we voted out a Prime Minister that wouldn’t have known a laptop if it bit him on the arse – funny, he was good mates with Dubbya.

    Speaks volumes though doesn’t it. Two emails, versus no emails, versus prolly can’t prise him of the laptop. Times they are a changing.

  19. #19 JasonB
    November 11, 2008

    The president, the cabinet members and most other high ranking officials completely abstain from any email. It is discoverable material, so it is completely avoided – and it has been that way since email started being used. Aides use email, but neither the Secretary of Defense, State, P or VP will.

    Obama will not be using a Mac anytime soon. He will go the way of paper.

  20. #20 Eshto
    November 11, 2008

    I hate macs. And… I’m a digital artist. Yeah that’s right. I like my PC better for making art.

    I’m not ashamed.

    Maybe if your goddamn mac mouse could right click it would be worth getting!

  21. #21 Sven DiMilo
    November 11, 2008

    How the hell is he going to play Minesweeper on paper?

  22. #22 Paul Burnett
    November 11, 2008

    Does anyone know anything about the book “Evolution and/or Creation: an Islamic Perspective” by T.O. Shanavas?” – Jaknelaps, #6

    Good collection of reviews and criticism on Amazon at http://www.amazon.com/Evolution-Creation-Perspective-T-O-Shanavas/dp/1413465803

    It looks like his highest bogosity index statement is that the first humans, Adam and Eve, were twins born to a non-human primate mother. You should be able to get some mileage out of that one.

  23. #23 Steve Jobs
    November 11, 2008

    Maybe if your goddamn mac mouse could right click it would be worth getting!

    If you were not a fucking idiot, you’d right click the mouse.

    http://www.apple.com/mightymouse/design.html

  24. #24 SteveC
    November 11, 2008

    A Mac? What kind of poor excuse for a socialist would use such a capitalist pig-dog machine? He better be running linux on that thing, or I’m going to feel ripped off.

    (kidding, of course.)

  25. #25 John Morales
    November 11, 2008

    Well, nice to see PZ is religious about something. ;)

    Seriously, there’s stuff-all difference between boxes or OSs these days if all one does is use apps.

    As for email, were I in such a position I would not email anything which I considered had the least chance of being used against me or my party, now or in the indefinite future, but that would not stop me from using it.

  26. #26 spgreenlaw
    November 11, 2008

    SteveC,

    A Mac? What kind of poor excuse for a socialist would use such a capitalist pig-dog machine? He better be running linux on that thing, or I’m going to feel ripped off.

    I’m about as left wing as one can get, and I have a major crush on Apple. I know it’s wrong, but it feels so right.

  27. #27 Andrew
    November 11, 2008

    I think the real question is: what were the two e-mails clinton sent?

  28. #28 Ubi Dubium
    November 11, 2008

    How the hell is he going to play Minesweeper on paper?

    Sheesh – you play minesweeper on your i-phone!

  29. #29 Your Mighty Overload
    November 11, 2008

    Well, that makes sense – John McCain did look like an older version of the “PC” guy.

    If only they’d have done adverts, heck, whole debates like that….

  30. #30 Eleanor
    November 11, 2008

    I actually remember reading that Bush was a huge fan of e-mail, an “early adopter” if you will, but had to give it up because of the laws surrounding presidential correspondence, as well as the security risk. I’m sure he’s looking forward to being able to correspond electronically with his family & friends once he leaves office, though.

  31. #31 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    November 11, 2008

    WAY way way way OT sorry.

    Halfway through the Lee Atwater story on PBS frontline.

    So far it is fantastic.

    I suggest everyone who has any curiosity about the republican party over the last 20 years watch it.

  32. #32 Nibien
    November 11, 2008

    Ugh, I loathe macs.

  33. #33 Casey S
    November 11, 2008

    My feelings on Macintosh computers can best be summed up by this page http://www.thebestpageintheuniverse.net/c.cgi?u=macs_cant

    But ipods and iphones are awesome.

  34. #34 george.wiman
    November 11, 2008

    Obama used to do a regular podcast when was a state senator. He’d explain what he was working on, and why, and who was involved, and just generally talk about life in the Illinois senate. No idea if they are still available.

  35. #35 Dave
    November 11, 2008

    “he uses a Mac laptop”

    Well, nobody’s perfect.

  36. #36 AdamEB
    November 11, 2008

    You’ll all missing the point here. He has PacMan getting ready to eat the apple on the back of his mac.
    So not only is he a mac user but probably an old school geek.

  37. #37 E.V.
    November 11, 2008

    hate macs. And… I’m a digital artist.

    And your main concern is inability to right click? Duuuude, use a Wacom tablet if you’re a real digital artist.

    PC’s BLOW! You users deserve VISTA!

  38. #38 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    November 11, 2008

    ugh nothing more boring than a Mac vs. PC dork off.

    I’m in IT and a photographer and it bores me.

  39. #39 Joel
    November 11, 2008

    The best comment in the article.

    Sun, 11/09/2008 – 21:35 — 9to5Mac Noob (not verified)
    With that many pols of both parties using Macs and iPhones, I have to believe Apple is the devil’s tool…

  40. #40 Rose
    November 11, 2008

    You’ll all missing the point here. He has PacMan getting ready to eat the apple on the back of his mac.

    Perhaps, but maybe you’ve missed the point?

    Mon, 11/10/2008 – 06:27 — 9to5Mac Noob (not verified)
    I found the black Pac-Man eating the white Apple a bit disturbing..

  41. #41 LisaJ
    November 11, 2008

    Yay for MACs! 0 and 2 emails sent by Georgie and Bill… I cannot believe that. That just can’t be true.

  42. #42 wazza
    November 11, 2008

    Why would everything the president sends have to be secure? Do we really care if Russia or China find out that the President wants Bill Ayers to bring him some Chicago-style pizza?

  43. #43 Mark UK
    November 11, 2008

    Bad news about Obama though…

    http://redinktexas.blogspot.com/

    “Senator Obama may have been molested by a friend of his father’s over a long period. Larry Sinclair insists that Obama picked him up and engaged in drug use and homosexual acts. Senator Obama admits to drug abuse when he was younger although he insists he has not used drugs in years. While there is no smoking gun evidence, it would appear to me that there is a growing body of circumstantial evidence that Senator Obama is not of sound mind and may be wracked with depression and guilt and conflicting sexual identity.”

    We also find out that Obama is a nazi on this website. Just so you know…

  44. #44 Mark
    November 11, 2008

    MAC fanboy circle jerk! But of course, I use MAC. I actually go out of my way to not talk about it though.

  45. #45 Craig
    November 11, 2008

    Yes, B.T., I would be nervous if Obama was one of the Microsoft sheep flock. I now love PZ and Obama even more!

  46. #46 epsilon
    November 11, 2008

    IMO, macs blow. I run Linux on my boxes.

  47. #47 Cujo359
    November 11, 2008

    As Hilary alluded, Presidents have people who write e-mail for them, just like they have people to make phone calls for them. That Bush and Clinton didn’t write e-mails doesn’t surprise me all that much. I bet they didn’t spend a lot of time leafing through the Yellow Pages, either. It will be interesting to see if Obama, who has grown up around computers, makes more use of them in the WH.

    I’d be a lot more impressed if Obama used Linux, to tell the truth …

  48. #48 becca
    November 11, 2008

    Dear Horst,
    We heard the great news about Ulrike, congrats Opa!
    -Barack

    Anyone who thinks he couldn’t possibly have any *non-confidential* communications has a very odd view of the world.

  49. #49 steveb
    November 11, 2008

    Since someone asked.. I’d be nervous if he were a linux user. It’d be be clear evidence that he suffered suffered from technological OCD and he felt the need to spend inordinate time on his computer. ;-P

    It’s not surprising he’s a Mac user. The University of Chicago is an incredibly Mac friendly school overall. The UC Comp Sci department was run by Don Crabb.. who penned way too many Macintosh books, and who wrote a Computer column for the Sun Times.

    U of C was one of the First 10 educational sites authorized as an Apple Retailer.

    I run an IT shop at UC. We see more Macs and less Windows every week.

  50. #50 JPS, FCD
    November 11, 2008

    Sven @ 21,

    I hear W prefers sudoku, and he’s going to try his first “Moderate” puzzle any day now.

  51. #51 stevenb
    November 11, 2008

    P.S. to some other commenters.. a “MAC” is a Media Access Control string. It’s a unique alpha-numeric code assigned to every network card [port]. They are usually assigned in blocks to manufacturers/vendors so you can look at a MAC that starts with 0017 you know it’s a Macintosh.

    A “Mac” is a Macintosh computer.

    Sorry, I couldn’t help myself.. It’s an IT thing. :P

  52. #52 Bad Albert
    November 11, 2008

    Didn’t traitor turned Republican nominee for a VA senate seat Ollie North get busted using email?

    I think his problems happened in the days prior to email becaming popular. Ollie made the mistake of using the MSDOS ‘Delete’ command to erase incriminating files on a floppy disk. He didn’t realize ‘Delete’ only erases the reference to the file in the FAT table. The data is still there until it gets overwritten by new data.

  53. #53 Brian X
    November 11, 2008

    I’ve heard that Dubya was actually an avid emailer before being president, but gave it up for legal reasons.

    Good to hear Obama is a Mac man though. So was Al Gore — he was, I’ve heard, one of the first PowerBook users. Dallied with PCs for a while, but then became part of Apple’s board and went back to the Macs.

    A Linux fan in the White House would be even cooler though…

  54. #54 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    I like my PC better for making art.

    So, you work in monochrome, I presume?

    I can’t imagine trying to do any other kind of artwork on a system that lacks pervasive color management.

    -jcr

  55. #55 hebE
    November 12, 2008

    who needs email when you’ve got fiat?

  56. #56 Lurkbot
    November 12, 2008

    Funny this should come up. I’ve spent the last couple of years following the Mac/PC wars and obsessing about good destroying evil (AKA Microsoft) because in that one small microcosm it seemed possible, while the world in general went to hell.

    Since last week, when it suddenly seems that good can triumph over evil in the real world, I’ve lost 95% of my interest in that. Still: “Go, Apple!” “Die, Microsoft, die!”

  57. #57 Marc
    November 12, 2008

    A Linux fan in the White House would be even cooler though…

    Presidents are supposed to be running a country. Not reading Ubuntu forums and messing with xorg.conf trying to fix their wide-screen monitor resolution.
    :P

  58. #58 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    Lurkbot,

    Apple’s not going to destroy Microsoft, and they’re not trying to. Apple focuses on their customers, not on their competition.

    What will bring Microsoft down, are the same things that toppled IBM from their former dominant position: complacency, and management incompetence. I just hope that if Microsoft’s decline picks up speed during the next four years, that an Obama administration won’t be offering them a bailout.

    -jcr

  59. #59 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    Presidents are supposed to be running a country.

    No, they’re not. They’re supposed to run one of three coequal branches of the federal government. The idea that they’re supposed to run the country has been a major enabling factor in presidential power-grabbing almost since the beginning of our republic.

    -jcr

  60. #60 Aquaria
    November 12, 2008

    I hate macs. And… I’m a digital artist. Yeah that’s right. I like my PC better for making art.
    I’m not ashamed.
    Maybe if your goddamn mac mouse could right click it would be worth getting!

    Uh… Duuuuude! First of all, the Might Mouse has right click.

    –AND–

    You can use 3rd party USB meeses with your Mac. I’ve had a variety of Macs over the past 10 years, and I’ve never even unboxed the ones that came with the Macs. I just plug in my Logitech USB Trackman, and I’m good to go. And if it dies, I buy another, plug it in. Total plug and play, not plug and pray.

    Seems more likely that it’s not the mouse that’s the problem. Someone wants to hate on something, just to hate on it.

    Contrarians are everywhere.

    Windows and Linux boxes are okay, and I don’t have a problem using them if I must. They do the job, most of the time (Linux far more than Windows, admittedly). I just happen to prefer Mac when I’m noodling at home.

  61. #61 CSN
    November 12, 2008

    “Meet the new boss
    Same as the old boss”

    Pretty well declares my feelings on the superiority of Mac vs PC.

    Mac is like emo. “Revolution” packaged and sold. Don’t kid yourself, use what does what you need it to.

  62. #62 Wayne Robinson
    November 12, 2008

    Jaknelaps (comment #6)
    Another reference to T.O. Shanavas “Evolution and Creation; an Islamic Perspective” is;
    http://www.quraninstitute.org/bb/viewtopic.phpp=721&sid=3b40cb401c73e0307bc88ad1eb7e4288
    The reviewer thinks his main problems are that he doesn’t quite understand evolution and his knowledge doesn’t quite seem to be up to date. Besides that, he does seem to accept evolution as being true, so that should be encouraged. The reviewers on Amazon.com who gave him a high rating don’t seem to be obviously barking mad.

  63. #63 John Morales
    November 12, 2008

    JCR @54,

    I like my PC better for making art.
    So, you work in monochrome, I presume?
    I can’t imagine trying to do any other kind of artwork on a system that lacks pervasive color management.

    Clearly, you’re either a snob or you lack imagination.

    First, color artwork has been done via computers for decades – long before Apple came along, or “pervasive color management”, whatever that is.
    Second, the art comes from the artist, not from the tool the artist employs.

    You’re like someone I know who keeps buying ever higher-megapixel cameras, only to print the photos on A4 paper. ‘Tis a pointless exercise in vanity (he thinks they look better).

  64. #64 gypsytag
    November 12, 2008

    It’s probably good that Obama doesn’t use linux.
    that would mean that he was too into the minutia to see the big picture, doesn’t like visual displays, talks in a cryptic manner and rarely baths.
    :-)

    just trying to liven this thing up.

  65. #65 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    John,

    Clearly, you’re either a snob or you lack imagination.

    Clearly, you’re an amateur.

    “pervasive color management”, whatever that is.

    Read and learn:

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Color_management

    Apple’s implementation is called ColorSync. Microsoft’s implementation is non-existent.

    -jcr

  66. #66 John Morales
    November 12, 2008

    JCR @65, that link does not have use term “pervasive color management” anywhere – your link does not explain what it is.

    Microsoft’s implementation is non-existent.

    Well, if you mean Microsoft doesn’t use the Apple system, I suppose so. But if you mean it doesn’t have color management, that page contradicts your claim.

    What it says is that “color management in Windows is handled at the OS level through an ICC V4-compatible color management standard and API known as Windows Color System”, and that “Apple’s Mac OS X and the classic Mac OS have long had a color management module, ColorSync.”

    In short, both systems have color management.

    Oh yeah, you’ve still not said what the “pervasive” version of this means. I take it you mean it’s implemented at the OS level, rather than at the application level. Care to explain how exactly this makes any difference to a user?

  67. #67 John C. Welch
    November 12, 2008

    First, color artwork has been done via computers for decades – long before Apple came along, or “pervasive color management”, whatever that is.
    Second, the art comes from the artist, not from the tool the artist employs.

    Color management is what ensures the color you see on YOUR screen when you create the art stays the same on OTHER people’s screens or, if they print it, through that process.

    unless you don’t think color consistency matters.

    Then again, you’re the first artist on a computer i’ve EVER heard of who didn’t know about color management.

  68. #68 Johnb300m
    November 12, 2008

    I’m an avid Mac user and Macbook Pro convert from this past July. I’m loving every minute of it. The threat of Vista made me switch.

    I have to point this out though, without PC, there would just be pockets of Linux and other tiny scrappy OSs. Apple would be the only big gun around, and with no threat of MS around, they might just fall asleep and become as cumbersome and sleazy as MS.

    In essence, in this case, the competition is good.

  69. #69 John Morales
    November 12, 2008

    John Welch @67, I know what color management is – you should know I know, too, if only from the fact I just referred to a page that explains it.
    So, are you disputing that color artwork has been done on computers for decades?
    Are you disputing that the term “pervasive color management” is, let us say, uncommon?
    Are you disputing that the commenter who claimed to be an artist and preferred to use a PC, in fact is an artist and does prefer to use a PC?

    Because, if you’re not, then what exactly about my comment are you trying to rebut?

  70. #70 JStein
    November 12, 2008

    I can’t trust a President that doesn’t use the internet. This is the greatest communication tool in the world, use the dam thing.

  71. #71 Irene Delse
    November 12, 2008

    Not only a MacBook user, but a bona fide geek, too:
    http://www.tor.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=blog&id=8269

  72. #72 Erwin
    November 12, 2008

    @ #43
    Made my day. Don’t you love how elections bring out the inner unintended stand-up comedians in so many otherwise dull misanthropes? :D
    Here’s to election.twitter.com never to be turned off. If you feel sad and lonely, read it for a while and you won’t be sad (because you find that there are people dumber than you) or lonely (because you are glad you are not in the company of the election.twittering idiots)

  73. #73 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    Mr. Morales,

    I apologize for assuming that you were fluent in English. It seems that my use of the word “pervasive” confused you.

    ColorSync is a system-wide color management service on Mac OS X, which ensures that any application that renders graphics or prints does so with color management by default. Color management thus pervades Mac OS X.

    By building it into the operating system, color is consistent across all applications on the Mac, instead of the situation on Windows, where it is only available as an add-on to certain specific applications.

    -jcr

  74. #74 wine? no.beer
    November 12, 2008

    NERDS!!!

  75. #75 Marc
    November 12, 2008

    No, they’re not. They’re supposed to run one of three coequal branches of the federal government.

    My mistake!

    @Wayne: That link doesn’t work.

  76. #76 Azkyroth
    November 12, 2008

    Color management is what ensures the color you see on YOUR screen when you create the art stays the same on OTHER people’s screens or, if they print it, through that process.

    unless you don’t think color consistency matters.

    You know, I’ve been using various computers for years, and on a properly adjusted monitor, I’ve never noticed a significant difference.

    This frankly seems like roughly the pettiest thing to obsess over imaginable.

  77. #77 John Morales
    November 12, 2008

    JCR @73, it’s funny to watch someone arrogate expertise, then fumble it. Heh.

    From your link: “color management in Windows is handled at the OS level through an ICC V4-compatible color management standard and API known as Windows Color System”.

  78. #78 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    My mistake!

    Not your fault. Propaganda promoting the idea of the president running the country (or even calling him the “leader of the free world”) has been pushed on us for generations.

    -jcr

  79. #79 Quiet_Desperation
    November 12, 2008

    I’m typing this on a hardy old Powerbook G4 right now.

    Like a couple others, I’d like a further exploration of what looks like the black Pac Man eating the white Apple.

  80. #80 Quiet_Desperation
    November 12, 2008

    Propaganda promoting the idea of the president running the country (or even calling him the “leader of the free world”) has been pushed on us for generations.

    I used to laugh at it even as a kid. I always pictured some guy running frantically around a giant room turning knobs and pulling levers and pushing buttons.

    Behold, the POTUS!

    http://i37.tinypic.com/2hwnpk6.jpg

  81. #81 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    John,

    it’s funny to watch someone arrogate expertise, then fumble it.

    Not as funny as watching someone fail to understand what he’s reading.

    I take it you don’t write code, so I’ll try to describe this briefly. The Windows Color system is available to windows apps, if the developer bothers to use it. Most apps on Windows don’t do anything about color management at all, so they render their drawing without applying the adjustments for the display or hard copy device that they should.

    Contrast this with Colorsync, where all rendering is done through a color profile, unless you specifically choose to render in the device colorspace. A Mac app doesn’t need to do anything to get correct color. That’s the benefit of the pervasive nature of Colorsync.

    In a nutshell, color management on Mac: on by default. Color management on Windows: available, but mostly ignored.

    -jcr

  82. #82 John Morales
    November 12, 2008

    Azkyroth,

    You know, I’ve been using various computers for years, and on a properly adjusted monitor, I’ve never noticed a significant difference.

    Indeed. Anyone who says they can distinguish a 1-bit difference in 32-bit RGB color space is bullshitting.
    There are reasons to use it in graphics (e.g. accumulation), but, as I said above, it’s like the guy who imagines a difference between a 5 and an 8-Mpixel camera photo printed on A4 on the same printer using the same computer.

  83. #83 John Morales
    November 12, 2008

    JCR

    I take it you don’t write code

    Not any more, no.

    Most apps on Windows don’t do anything about color management at all

    That wasn’t your original contention, and there are apps that do.

    A Mac app doesn’t need to do anything to get correct color.

    So what, from the user’s POV?

    Remember, you originally said you couldn’t “imagine trying to do any other kind of artwork on a system that lacks pervasive color management”, but now you apparently can: “Color management on Windows: available, but mostly ignored.”

    And with that, I leave this, as I fear we’ve hijacked the thread.

  84. #84 Jason A.
    November 12, 2008

    PC user, and Vista at that. Vista is the bomb. How many people who complain about ‘Vistas problems’ have actually used the OS? And I mean for more than 10 minutes and said ‘I don’t like it cause it’s new and I’m not used to it!’ I’ve put it through more paces than any kind of normal user would, and have never seen any of these problem. Programs not designed for Vista? No problem. Old school hardware like a 5 year old scanner or 6 or 7 year old memory card reader? Those work too. ‘But the DRM won’t let you do anything!’ Please, I’ve downloaded *lots* of music, movies and software and have never had to do any special steps to use any of it. Yes, even ‘creative’ programs work great – Adobe Premier, Cakewalk Sonar 7 Producer and Project 5. In fact, I’ve never had Vista not be able to do something I asked it to.
    I would think the people on this site know hype and propaganda when they see it. Their commercials with the PC and Mac guys are just such obvious propaganda that I almost feel insulted that they expect me to believe it. ‘Mac guy’ (who is also young and hip) will go on and on about ‘Vistas problems’ but never actually say what those ‘problems’ are. Someone here said it well with ‘prepackaged revolution’. Well, I try not to let their PR department ruin my opinion of their product, maybe I just need to try one.

    I do have a dual boot with Ubuntu installed because I thought I’d give it a shot after hearing people rave about Linux. I found it inferior to Vista and only boot it up once every 3 or 4 months. It was handy while I was taking programming class at school, if I wasn’t near an internet connection. Otherwise PuTTY in windows was easier and worked just as well. I just didn’t find anything I personally wanted to do in Linux – after spending time configuring – that I couldn’t just do in Vista with a simple plug and play.

  85. #85 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    So what, from the user’s POV?

    So, it means that Windows is poor choice if correct color matters, since most Windows apps won’t have it.

    -jcr

  86. #86 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    Vista is the bomb.

    I’ve heard that. How many times a day is it crashing on you? ;-)

    -jcr

  87. #87 Nibien
    November 12, 2008

    JCR @73, it’s funny to watch someone arrogate expertise, then fumble it. Heh.

    From your link: “color management in Windows is handled at the OS level through an ICC V4-compatible color management standard and API known as Windows Color System”.

    Ah, you’ll learn, like the rest of us, just to Killfire JCR.

  88. #88 The Chemist
    November 12, 2008

    My major gripe with Macs is that they haven’t prodded the fuck out of Microsoft into making a better OS. That said, my next computer’s brand will be a function of whatever software I happen to be using most often in about two years, either as a grad student or at my next job.

  89. #89 Azkyroth
    November 12, 2008

    Presidents are supposed to be running a country.

    No, they’re not. They’re supposed to run one of three coequal branches of the federal government. The idea that they’re supposed to run the country has been a major enabling factor in presidential power-grabbing almost since the beginning of our republic.

    The President and the executive branch under him being charged with faithfully executing the laws and discharging the various commitments made by the government, it is not unreasonable to characterize the job of the president as “running” (in the sense of operating) the “country” considered as a single cohesive entity.

  90. #90 scooter
    November 12, 2008

    The new Macs win the PC vs Mac war because they run Windows, so they are both

  91. #91 Sili
    November 12, 2008

    Harrumph!

    That’s not change we can believe in.

    Next thing you know, he’ll be a dancing silhouette.

  92. #92 Fletch
    November 12, 2008

    As an IT professional, I always viewed the mac’s vs pc’s like aol is to the internet? I’ve managed wintel, linux, unix and mac x-servers. I find apple/mac stuff a bit cartoonish. As aol is/was for the less technical or savvy, in my experience, mac’s are as well. They are easier to use for the technically challenged. Which I guess is good for the masses. I use linux personally. Not that any of you care.

  93. #93 Gabe
    November 12, 2008

    No wonder the DMCA passed under Clinton.

  94. #94 Stephen Wells
    November 12, 2008

    @Jason A: are we supposed to be impressed by your ability to cut-and-paste Microsoft press releases?

  95. #95 Meng Bomin
    November 12, 2008

    I don’t really care if someone uses a Mac, but it’s really annoying when they start espousing Apple Marketingspeak as if it were a substitute for actual knowledge.

  96. #96 MarkW
    November 12, 2008

    OS wars:
    Linux is for people who want to know how their computer works.
    BSD is for people who want to know why their computer doesn’t work.
    OS X is for people who don’t want to know how their computer works.
    Windows is for people who don’t want to know why their computer doesn’t work.

  97. #97 B.T. Murtagh
    November 12, 2008

    As someone who has long-term experience with all three major flavors in various incarnations, my take is this:

    At one time Macs were much better for graphics-intensive applications, but it’s been a long time since that was the case (even longer than it’s been since Mac mice lacked a right button).

    At one time Linux required inordinate amounts of expertise to run, but it’s been a long time since that was the case (or necessarily the case – some distributions prioritize other qualities than ease of use).

    At one time Windows crashed all the time, but it’s been a long time since that was the case (although they did make an attempt to bring back that old time religion with Vista – it isn’t the UI that makes Vista suck, it’s the interoperability issues).

    It really is like a religious war, in that the dogma never changes to match the observable reality.

  98. #98 Fernando Magyar
    November 12, 2008

    Posted by: Jason A.

    PC user, and Vista at that. Vista is the bomb. How many people who complain about ‘Vistas problems’ have actually used the OS?

    Well, I work for a software company and we are gold MS developers. Part of my job involves training and implementing our software on customer’s networks using various flavors of the Vista OS.

    Let’s just say that I beg to differ…

  99. #99 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM
    November 12, 2008

    ugh yawny yawn yawn YAAAAAAAAAAAAWN

    A Mac app doesn’t need to do anything to get correct color.

    If you are wanting correct color you should be calibrating your monitor

    MAC or PC.

    I do every week to guarantee my Photos are the correct color on the monitor, the web and my prints.

  100. #100 MarkW
    November 12, 2008

    For what it’s worth, my previous comment was a joke, and I agree with B.T. Murtagh.

  101. #101 John C. Welch
    November 12, 2008

    John Welch @67, I know what color management is – you should know I know, too, if only from the fact I just referred to a page that explains it.

    There are an infinite number of things I can link to that I have no real knowledge about. I know this is a weird concept but “knowing the link” != “knowing the information/subject”.

    So, are you disputing that color artwork has been done on computers for decades?

    Hardly, nor did I ever say I had. However, prior to color managment, and really, ColorSync, since it took Windows a bit to get a system level, albeit opt-in color management setup, it was a crapshoot that the color you saw on your monitor would look the same on paper or someone else’s monitor. Heck, you’d be lucky to get a consistent error between printers without color management.

    Are you disputing that the term “pervasive color management” is, let us say, uncommon?

    The term is immaterial, but nice try at a minor distraction. JCR’s point about opt-in color management is valid. It’s the reason why Apple changed ColorSync from an Opt-in to an opt-out method some releases back, (10.4 IIRC)

    Are you disputing that the commenter who claimed to be an artist and preferred to use a PC, in fact is an artist and does prefer to use a PC?

    I’m beginning to seriously wonder if you read my comment, or if you just saw “doesn’t hate Macs” and that part of your macro kicked in.

    Because, if you’re not, then what exactly about my comment are you trying to rebut?

    The part where, prior to my comment, you were doing a good job of not only not knowing what color management is, but dismissing its importance. If you’re going to use words that show you as not knowing what something is, don’t be surprised when people take those words at face value. Not our job to read your mind.

  102. #102 Culmastadm
    November 12, 2008

    A Mac? awwwww, fuck!

  103. #103 Icelander
    November 12, 2008

    I never thought I’d see the day there was a religious flamewar on Pharyngula…

  104. #104 Icelander
    November 12, 2008

    @Jstein #70 I can’t trust a President that doesn’t use the internet. This is the greatest communication tool in the world, use the dam thing.

    I’m a little sad that Barack Obama has stopped updating his Twitter feed. I think it would be a great way for a President to be more connected with the American public.

  105. #105 Stephen Wells
    November 12, 2008

    @104: maybe we can have the President followed throughout the day by a small flying camera drone?

  106. #106 Steve Caldwell
    November 12, 2008

    (1) Regarding Dubya’s non-use of email, I’m sure that it’s because he’s on MySpace, Facebook, and uses IM, text messaging, etc to connect with his friends. There are some folks who rarely use email (e.g. my teen son and college student daughter).

    Maybe it’s time to “friend” Dubya on Facebook and MySpace?

    :^)

    (2) Regarding the pros and cons of the various operating systems, there really isn’t that much difference between them. All of them (Mac OS X, Windows, Linux) can do web surfing, email, and basic office work (using OpenOffice or Microsoft Office).

    (3) Windows has more games available for it (a plus for my teen son).

    (4) Mac OS X is easier to maintain for the casual user (a plus for my college student daughter).

    (5) Linux is less demanding in terms of hardware required (a plus for me with my old laptop running Ubuntu Linux and for friends whom I’ve set up older computers for them running Ubuntu Linux and OpenOffice).

    Our family has a Windows PC for gaming and other computer uses (web, email, office apps, tax preparation).

    We have a Mac OS X machine for multimedia and other computer uses (web, email, office apps)

    My son has a “recycled” Pentium III running Ubuntu Linux that he uses for homework and looking up cheat codes for games (Linux major strength is it allows you to effectively use older computers with insufficient RAM, HD, and CPU power to run Windows).

  107. #107 Tony
    November 12, 2008

    Ugh, nothing more annoying than reading a PC/Mac/Linux flame war. Well, reading comments on YouTube is pretty bad, too.

    Anyway, my problem with Vista is that you need like 2 GB of RAM just to run it. I had to disable most of Vista’s “features” for my grandma because she only had 512 MB on her new Dell. The UI looks like Windows 2000 now.

    2 cents.

  108. #108 David Wiener
    November 12, 2008

    Mac? Really, if he does not use Linux then he is just a tool of his corporate masters. If I had known of his non-use of Linux I would have voted for that other guy (what was his name? McPalin, or something like that…) because that other guy was not beholden to *any* corporate computer companies.

    Hmph (…goes off to compile a new Kernel)

  109. #109 Hampus
    November 12, 2008

    Ugh Mac? Only positive thing one can say about them is that they no longer make their own hardware. Twits know absolutely fuckall about properly utelizing intel. Worst. OS. Ever.

  110. #110 yoshi
    November 12, 2008

    The reason neither Clinton nor Bush send e-mails during their presidencies is because they are required to be part of the public archives. Its called plausible deniability. Its not because they don’t know how to use a computer. It will be interesting to see how Obama deals with this.

    Otherwise Bush was an avid user of e-mail prior to the white house.

    Now returning you to your pointless drivel about operating systems – I mean really people – you are older than 13 right?

  111. #111 Interrobang
    November 12, 2008

    Obviously Bush doesn’t use e-mail because he doesn’t know how to type. Hell, from the way he behaves, he has to sound out the keyboard before he can even start trying to hunt and peck.

    I prefer PCs to Macs for the simple reason that if something goes wrong with my computer, I’d rather fix it myself than pay someone to fix it for me, and the modular nature of PC hardware makes that relatively easy. I loathe mucking around with hardware, but I’ve got the technical know-how to do my own repairs, and I’ve got better things to spend my money on than paying some fuckhead with a fancy set of screwdrivers to utterly fail to listen to me about what the problem is, pretend to fix something, and then bill me for it. I haven’t met an honest computer repairman (and they are all men, locally) here yet.

    Case in point, I used to have this Toshiba laptop. I put it in the shop to have the hard drive changed out, because I don’t do laptop hardware and they’re the only local supplier of Toshiba parts. Took ‘em ten weeks to get around to doing the repair, and they still charged me full price. Yeah, I’d fuckin’ use something completely integrated like a Mac…if you put a gun to my head…

  112. #112 Steve_C
    November 12, 2008

    Hampus loves himself some Vista. hehehe.
    Oh wait, he probably thinks that Linux rules. Phhhht.

    You mac haters come up with the funniest reasons to NOT use one.
    Most of them pretty damn laughable.

    I’ve been using macs for 20 years, I’ve never had a reason NOT to use one.

  113. #113 Quiet_Desperation
    November 12, 2008

    BSD is for people who want to know why their computer doesn’t work. OS X is for people who don’t want to know how their computer works.

    Or… OSX is for people like me, who know how computers work, have built them from scratch, but now are older and have lives and don’t want to dick around with configuration files. and kernal compiling and all the other stuff that give others orgasms for some reason.

    And OSX basically *is* BSD with a GUI.

  114. #114 o_0
    November 12, 2008

    by Steve_C’s logic then this holds true too “some people have used the bible as the truth for 2000 years, these people never had a reason NOT to use it as the truth”

    …wuht?

    Apple is a cult, it is how it is, get over it.

    Now what worries me is that we elected a president is have been easily subverted by the childish marketing campaign of Apple which really only boils down to “if you want to be cool like the rest of us special people, you would use a mac!”

    Everything that the mac commercial tells is such utter brainless lies. On that fact alone it repulses me, and not whether or not if the system they are selling is better or worse.

  115. #115 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    I’ve been using macs for 20 years, I’ve never had a reason NOT to use one.

    I have, but it was quite a few years back. I was a Mac developer from 1984 to 1989, then I switched to NeXTSTEP, and stayed with it right through the Apple/NeXT merger as it morphed into OS X. I left the Mac for a better system, and then that better system became the new Mac.

    -jcr

  116. #116 Dahan
    November 12, 2008

    Well I’ve got a Powerbook and a PC tower. I’m a centrist after all I guess.

  117. #117 Maureen Lycaon
    November 12, 2008

    I’m interrupting this OS war to reply to #34: yes, Obama’s old podcasts are still available.

  118. #118 Naked Bunny with a Whip
    November 12, 2008

    Meh, I prefer Linux for its configurability, but I’ve got limited patience for getting around some of its weaknesses, so I use it for my server apps, day-to-day web browsing/email/etc, and software development. I use a Macbook for the things that Linux still kinda sucks at, like multimedia. I keep around a Windows XP laptop for those niche apps that just aren’t available on other platforms and for testing. (People do still use Internet Explorer, after all.) No sense in getting all zealot-y about it.

  119. #119 uncle frogy
    November 12, 2008

    I have not read all the comments (yet?) on this thread but I do have some thoughts to share.
    back in the old days of the 60′s I was stationed in Germany (US Army) and watched one of the highered kitchen police get a phone call from his supervisor he was an Italian peasant and did not pickup the phone but leaned over it and kind of shouted in to it was a very strange thing to see. To day I think that one of the ubiquitous tools of this age is the computer and I know a few people who still are not very comfortable using it.
    They do not “need” to learn to use it but if you have to do anything today you will be involved with computers one way or another. It is just like the phone isn’t it?
    It does not really mater much to me what kind either.
    It does surprise me the Clinton does not use one? He seems like a natural to me.

  120. #120 freakuency13
    November 12, 2008
  121. #121 stevenb
    November 12, 2008

    OK, I’ll let myself get sucked in one more time. What better way to spend your lunch than in an OS War?

    I’ve been in IT for about 12 years. I’ve run a couple University IT shops which means I deal with a very wide variety of software and hardware. We still support DOS and at least one Apple ][e because they're attached to custom equipment. I'm a Mac user primarily though I own (and support) Windows. I also have administrative experience with Netware, Linux, and FreeBSD.

    In general, we never advocate that someone move to another OS unless they want to. A Windows user on a Mac is just as inefficient as a Mac User on Windows. The same is conversely true of people on their preferred systems. We've gone so far as to set up Windows Terminal Services so Mac users can run Windows-only administrative applications.

    For the most part, OS wars are fought by people who have never spent any real amount of time with the platform they hate. It's really fascinating. Personally I find the Windows zealots the least informed and most zealous, generally because PCs are so pervasive that most Mac users have been forced to use Windows at some point.
    It's interesting that the wars persist given the amount of IP theft that has been going on for years. Apple steals ideas from Microsoft, Microsoft steals from Apple, Linux steals from Apple, but more the visual design from what I've seen. I chalk up the continuing fighting to the persistent ignorance.

    Things the other side doesn't know about OS X
    -It's FreeBSD mixed with NextStep. Even the kernel is an amalgam of FreeBSD and Mach. Apple even hired the guy who steered the FreeBSD project. I loved FreeBSD before OS X was available so OS X was the dream OS when it was released.
    -OS X's display interface is PDF. The screen rending is in PDF. What you see on the monitor is what you get on your Postscript printer output. This also allows cool integrated features, like the ability to create, view, and edit PDFs without Adobe Acrobat from any application.
    -OS X runs Windows very fast natively or via Virtualization. I run Windows XP on my Macintosh while OS X is running via a program called Fusion.. I use it to administer Active Directory. Apple natively supports booting into a real Windows environment with a software called Bootcamp (bundled with OS X 10.5). Not only does this open up Macs to all those Windows only business apps, but it lets you play all those windows games.
    - OS X is BSD so it also allows you to compile a lot of open source [bsd, unix, linux] software. You can do the same on Windows with CygWin [Linux libraries for Windows] but you can compile real OS X native software from source. In fact, a lot of Linux apps have Mac versions compiled already. Apple ships a very robust development environment with every Macintosh (an optional install on the OS DVD)
    - OS X is BSD so it’s an excellent development platform for your own software (and Apple’s own development environment is very nice.. the evolution of OpenStep). We do our custom web development in PHP, Perl, and MySQL on OS X. It’s our preferred platform because we basically get Active Directory user authentication in our web apps ‘for free’.. and we don’t need to maintain a user directory ourselves (we leverage campus AD). All this and we get to use popular development environments which run natively.
    - Apple still develops their own hardware. They use more commodity components from Intel, and now Nvidia, but there is technical design sharing between Intel and Apple. There is a reason why Apple gets preferential treatment from Intel (Apple got 3GHz quad-core chips months ahead of other vendors).. Intel gets R&D back from Apple, though it’s not at a level where it would affect something like CPU logic. By all accounts, the smaller CPU package that Intel now offers for Laptops was designed at the request of Apple for the MacBook Air.
    Tangential point: Apple’s quality control is much worse than in the old days when they had More of a hand in their hardware development. However, this is probably mostly due to the rapid increase in Apple Marketshare [production volume]. In the old days, Macs almost never broke.. and they’d run forever.
    - Macs integrate fully with Windows machines and networks. We use AD, we can share files between platforms with SMB, we can read each others files.. Conversely, Windows integrates fully with OS X infrastructure. I can build a robust infrastructure with OS X servers and Windows clients.
    - All the people who whine about the Apple supplied mouse are usually the same people who don’t use the crappy mouse that shipped with their Dell. ;-P

    And for you Mac ‘tards ;-) .. Vista is pretty stable with SP1. Vista and Linux are also perfectly viable from a GUI perspective though I find that the entry-level for them is higher than for Windows (there’s been research on this point). Basically that means a first-time computer user generally picks up OS X quicker than they would pick up Windows or Linux. Experienced Computer users generally have no advantage on their preferred platform compared to experienced users on another platform.
    Myself, I’ve been resisting Vista because I find the initial period of familiarity to be needlessly difficult. I’m perfectly happy with XP.
    Vista does not crash all the time (unless you install a Video card that is too power hungry for your Power supply :-) If anything, the only stability issues now are driver related. There is a lot of legacy hardware this is poorly [or not] supported. Vista’s 3rd party video drivers are much better these days but XP is still, often, faster when playing video games. This has been steadily changing though.
    P.S. OS X 10.5 is not nearly as stable as it should be. Apple tends to change a LOT of stuff ‘under the hood’ between OS releases. Consumers don’t realize how much work they put into a ‘point release’ like 10.4 to 10.5. The whole Vista Crashing argument is pretty silly when 10.5 was released with Beta quality issues. We had Active Directory problems up until 10.5.5 (a couple minor ones still persist).

    If I could impart anything.. it’s “use whatever you are comfortable with.. that’s the best operating system on the market”

    sorry.. way too much posting.

  122. #122 Longtime Lurker
    November 12, 2008

    On Monday night, I convinced an old veteran that he now needed to support Obama. He started razzing me a little about not voting for McCain, but I convinced him that Obama was a smart guy, and that he had to excel for the same reason that Jack Johnson and Joe Louis had to knock their opponents out- a lot of white establishment types would be hoping for, and in some cases, working towards his failure.

    I also laid out the case (after the fact, of course) that the McCain of 2008 was not the McCain of 2000 (even though evidence seems to indicate that he was, but was under more scrutiny from the press). Hell, I cheered McCain after he gave a speech about the Kennedy/McCain Immigration Bill, which he said he wouldn’t support while campaigning this year.

    Of course, this conversation was fueled by a lot of beer at a local gin mill- once again, the public house plays its central role in American political life, and now I have a standing invite to drink at the V.F.W. hall.

  123. #123 Metro
    November 12, 2008

    Bush sent many, many e-mails. It’s just that Karl Rove “accidentally deleted” them all.

  124. #124 Canuck
    November 12, 2008

    @111

    I prefer PCs to Macs for the simple reason that if something goes wrong with my computer, I’d rather fix it myself than pay someone to fix it for me, and the modular nature of PC hardware makes that relatively easy. I loathe mucking around with hardware, but I’ve got the technical know-how to do my own repairs

    Good, so you can fix your own hardware.

    Case in point, I used to have this Toshiba laptop. I put it in the shop to have the hard drive changed out, because I don’t do laptop hardware.

    Wait, but you can’t do hardware?!? So which is it? Sounds like you really can’t do hardware.

    I’ve been using Mac PowerBooks for more than a decade and I’ve had no problem replacing the odd thing that went bad in the laptops. Upgrading hard drives has been easy. Adding memory not difficult. Replaced a PMU board once, though that disassembly took most of an hour. A modem card once. Heck, on my previous Aluminum G4 PowerBook I unsoldered a digital temperature sensor (a Ti device) from a ribbon cable under the trackpad because it was defective and sending bogus overtemp messages to the system causing spontaneous sleeps. It took about 40 minutes. That’s more like what working on hardware is. Sounds like you can plug things in, and only in a big box. I also don’t trust service techs, so I make sure that they don’t have their fingers inside my computer.

    Computers aren’t that different in terms of the hardware these days, but OS X is very nice, thanks. And if you need to do some heavy lifting, you’ve got all that crunchy UNIX goodness underneath (it’s BSD under the hood). Two worlds in one. Grandma doesn’t need to know what grep, awk and sed are, or how to write scripts in Perl, Python, PHP, Ruby, or AppleScript, but those things are present, out of the box. If you’ve got tasks to automate, the tool set that Apple gives you is up to almost any task imaginable. I’ve not looked at Vista for more than 5 minutes, but I don’t think I’d be persuaded to switch. Where I work the converts are going the other way at a rapid rate.

    Oh, and on the colour management issue, it really does matter that you match things between devices, and that you have a device profile that makes sure it happens. I’ve got a lot of friends who are professional graphic artists, and they do care, very much. They do work for government and corporations who INSIST that their colours come out right when printed. They have corporate colours and they just have to match. The clients don’t pay if they aren’t right. And when the first laptops came out and the colour gamut of the screens sucked, they set colours on the skin and such by the RGB channel numbers in Photoshop, because the passive matrix LCDs weren’t up to faithful rendering. And they knew what their output devices were going to do. So, yeah, it does matter.

  125. #125 Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM
    November 12, 2008

    Why the hell do I keep clicking on this thread?

    WHY?!?!?

    Now where’s that hammer….

  126. #126 Steve_C
    November 12, 2008

    Nice try o_0.

    I have used a PC before. The experience was painful. I like the OS to not be in my way when I try to get something done.

    Also. Mac isn’t a world view or a philospohy. It’s a tool. A very well designed, stable, essential tool for what I do and it hasn’t let me down.

    Mac users aren’t a cult. It’s a fan club. User satisfaction does that apparently.

    Would love to compare the switcher articles… how many OMG Windows is so much better than OS X have you read in the past 5 years? Not counting Dvorak. ;)

  127. #127 marilove
    November 12, 2008

    My dad is Bush’s age or near it … he is just as addicted to his computer and the internet as I am, his 27 year old daughter.

    ‘Course, he’s the one that bought our first computer, a 386, and got us hooked on BBS. Aaah, those were the days…

    Yay for having a geeky dad!

  128. #128 Natalie
    November 12, 2008

    I would think the people on this site know hype and propaganda when they see it.

    Leaving aside the stupid argument about which OS is better, attitudes like what I quoted piss me off. I can’t count how many people have assumed that I got my Mac because of the commercials. Um, no. My dad is a visual artist and used a Mac when I was growing up. I’ve been using one my entire computing life. I’m comfortable on a Mac, and I have no real need to switch to Windows. Plus I have a built in excuse for why I can never take work home with me.

    I’m sure there are people who bought MacBooks because they think they’re cool. (Especially the Air, which is clearly tailor made for idiots with too much money.) But most people use the computer they use because it’s what they are accustomed to, or because someone they trust convinced them that OS a, b, or c was a better choice.

  129. #129 o_0
    November 12, 2008

    Natalie you brought up one of most self evident aspect about macs being cult-like; Indoctrination. Almost all low to mid level graphic artists ‘prefer’ to use macs. In the very high-end graphic sector, the typical macs just don’t cut it as a development tool.

    Why do so many ‘graphic artists’ type prefer macs so much? Is there really an empirical reason? I truly doubt it. Neither OSes are really ‘easier’ to use, its completely based on one’s perception, experience, and technical knowledge. If you are taught that one is better, you tend to think it is better. If you use one more than the other, than that one used more often is ‘easier’ to use. If you have more technical knowledge on how one system work over another, you will be able to more with the one you know more about.

    majority of the ‘graphic artist’ type are indoctrinated into being a mac user. Public school have been getting free apple computers for countless years, so since we were young we all most likely to have used macs in the classroom. On college/vocational level of education, most teachers/professors of the graphic field are mac users. So their student are also indoctrinated to the field as mac users. Generation after generation this have gone on.

    The fact is those favorite apps that graphic artists such as photoshop, illustrator, maya, 3ds max are all originally PC or custom OS(ie sgi) only apps. Today these programs are ported to mac compiled verisons, but all the UI and functions are the same on both OSes, so how can one be ‘better’ than the other when its the same?

  130. #130 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    -OS X’s display interface is PDF.

    Not exactly.

    Quartz 2Ds drawing primitives use the postscript marking model as PDF does (define a path, fill, stroke, clip to it, etc.), and anything drawn can also be rendered as a PDF, but there’s more there than Adobe offers in PDF.

    The screen rending is in PDF

    OpenGL, actually.

    -jcr

  131. #131 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    The fact is those favorite apps that graphic artists such as photoshop, illustrator, maya, 3ds max are all originally PC or custom OS(ie sgi) only apps

    Wrong on the first two. Photoshop and Illustrator both started out on the Mac.

    -jcr

  132. #132 John Morales
    November 12, 2008

    @101: Interesting snipe you use to excuse your attempt at patronising me – you really thought you needed to use your own crude definition because I’d failed to understand the Wikipedia definition? Yeah, right.
    You didn’t dispute my first, second or third points (you know, the only ones made in my comment to which you objected), leaving

    then what exactly about my comment are you trying to rebut?
    The part where, prior to my comment, you were doing a good job of not only not knowing what color management is, but dismissing its importance.

    Could it be you’ve drawn hasty and invalid inferences from my little digs at JCR (the neologism “pervasive color management”*, and that color management is provably not necessary to art creation)?

    Look, if you would patronise, at least have a basis for doing so – all you’ve done is shown you misunderstood portions of a post intended for someone else, and that you make implausible excuses when called on it.

    * Not strictly a neologism – Google shows two other occurrences outside this thread.

  133. #133 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    color management is provably not necessary to art creation

    Neither is competence or professionalism of any kind. My point was that Windows is a lousy tool for the job, not that it couldn’t be used at all.

    -jcr

  134. #134 Longtime Lurker
    November 12, 2008

    Re freakuency13@120

    Obama collects Conan comics? Too funny, Robert E. Howard would’ve shit himself at the prospect of a black president!

  135. #135 David Harmon
    November 12, 2008

    The one time I volunteered for Obama’s local campaign office, I noted with glee that they were using Ubuntu Linux on their computers.

  136. #136 Natalie
    November 12, 2008

    o_0, you seem to be somewhat of a nutcase, but what the hell: try again. My father graduated from college in 1984. No indoctrination could happen because they were no computers in his K-12 school at all. I don’t think there were many computers for the average student to use at his university at the time, either.

    Neither OSes are really ‘easier’ to use, its completely based on one’s perception, experience, and technical knowledge.

    So since, as I said, I’ve used both OSs quite a bit, how was I indoctrinated? Be creative!

  137. #137 Canuck
    November 12, 2008

    Nothing like a good platform cl*&%$#f%@k.

    I was also not indoctrinated. I did my first programming on an IBM mainframe, in Fortran. Still have a deck of punch cards in my office. Most of you wouldn’t have ever seen a punch card, outside of a museum. Next it was a PDP-11 we had in grad school, on which we did some signal processing calculations. Then an HP 98000B workstation at my first job. Then DEC Vax minis. Then PCs with DOS. Then Windows. But in 1994 I switched to Mac because I had a contract with Nortel, which was a 30,000+ strong Mac shop at the time. I’ve never had even the slightest inclination to go back.

    I don’t need a simple OS because I don’t understand computers. I want a computer that doesn’t get in the way. On that score the Mac has been very good. There is one other benefit of Macs that nobody here has mentioned. When you upgrade the OS on a PC, it generally brings the hardware to its knees. Look at the recent Vista fiasco. But whenever I have bought a new Mac, it has been faster with every OS update for about the next 4 years after the purchase of the hardware. That’s a big deal.

    I have a 15 year old Mac still running here. It has a long history of use I won’t bother to outline, but it’s still useful with the Wacom tablet and Photoshop. There’s another one that’s 14 that the kids use to play the VCR through – we don’t have TV by choice. And all of this hardware has gone without fixes. Find me a 15 year old PC that’s working.

    Someone up thread said that old Mac hardware was solid on the quality front. It’s no exaggeration. The stuff just keeps on going. I have Math and French language learning software that works on these old machines that the kids use and it’s still going fine. Same with Mavis Beacon teaches typing. We have newer computers for other things too, but this old stuff is still used and just keeps on going.

    In my computing past, I think that the switch to the Mac was the one event that would rate tops on my list. I LIKE to use these computers, which is more than I can say for the tools I used before. I had a hard drive failure yesterday, but even that was no big deal. With a clone of my system I was up and running in minutes, and am now transplanted to a new drive, all of which was painless and took but a couple of hours. And it all looks the same as it did before the failure.

    Oh, and it was an IBM drive.

  138. #138 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    Find me a 15 year old PC that’s working.

    Not sure I could find a functioning 15 year-old PC, but back in the early and mid 1980s, you could buy PCs from HP or DEC that were still built to last. Then, Dell and Gateway had their race to the bottom, and squeezed all of the profit margin out of the PC market.

    I LIKE to use these computers, which is more than I can say for the tools I used before.

    I liked the Tandem and HP minicomputers I used back in the day. They were primitive in many ways, but I still have some fond memories of very high reliability.

    -jcr

  139. #139 Steve_C
    November 12, 2008

    What exactly is the “high end sector” graphic design you are referring to?

    Anyone ever notice how type looks pretty shitty on a PC?
    Do I even need to go further than that?

    You may have noticed that quite a lot of scientists use Macs.
    It has nothing to do with high school indoctrination.

    I guess UI and user experience is just a crock of shit, right o_O?

  140. #140 David Harmon
    November 12, 2008

    I’m using 10+ year old PCs, but I’m starting to run into hardware upgrade limits — notably, one of them has a AGP 2X slot, which is not compatible with modern AGP cards (usually 4X/8X).

  141. #141 John Morales
    November 12, 2008

    JCR

    My point was that Windows is a lousy tool for the job [color art], not that it couldn’t be used at all.

    No, your point really is that you’re a snob and think MS/Windows is inferior to Apple, and I base this on the content of all your posts on this thread.

    My point was actually made @25: “there’s stuff-all difference between boxes or OSs these days if all one does is use apps”.

  142. #142 bezoar
    November 12, 2008

    I knew there was something special about Barack other than for all that he has to offer. I use a Mac too and I like to think of Bush’s Government as A Dell; Flashy on the surface, cheap, and doesn’t work well at all because it’s inherent system is shit. Obama uses a Mac; Well constructed, ahead of it’s time, little if any trouble and a family of like thinkers that’s a joy to be part of.

  143. #143 John Morales
    November 12, 2008

    Canuck,

    Most of you wouldn’t have ever seen a punch card, outside of a museum.

    So true, and it brings back memories. Back in the day (1978 I think) I was a punch operator at Flinders Uni, digitising and then entering tidal data onto punched cards for processing. The key punch was a rather neat machine, having a nice hydraulic-feeling action to the cylindrical keys and being (in a sense) somewhat programmable with a drum card.
    Yeah, it was a relic, but still in use at the Earth Sciences Lab at that time (which at least had an old vector display terminal whose wow-factor was high).

  144. #144 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    No, your point really is that you’re a snob

    Trapped by his own unsupportable contentions, Morales tries the hail Mary play of trying to put words in my mouth!

    and think MS/Windows is inferior to Apple,

    It is. Go cope.

    -jcr

  145. #145 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    Anyone ever notice how type looks pretty shitty on a PC?

    Not just type. If you use a CAD package like AutoCad on a PC, even their line rendering looks like shit, with jaggies and moiré patterns.

    Not only that, there’s a far higher tolerance for crappy UI design, because people take their cues from MS and clutter up their windows with a button for everything the app can do.

    But aside from the generally poor quality, the thing that really makes Windows horrendous is its unsecurability. That doesn’t just impact windows users, it also affects anyone on the internet as traffic gets crowded with packets from zombie PCs trying to re-infect each other.

    -jcr

  146. #146 Kel
    November 12, 2008

    If my PC weren’t my gaming box, I’d switch to a mac (and run Linux on the thing). I’ve kind of roped myself into using Windows by being a PC gamer.

  147. #147 o_0
    November 12, 2008

    Kel you statement don’t even make any sense. Modern Macs uses PC hardware. so if you are going run linux on a mac box, then might as well run it off a PC box with better choices of hardware at a cheaper price.

    My issue with apple is they sell you on this superiority bs and then charge you an arm and a leg for the ‘membership’.

    If the mac fans’ arguments against pc are real ones such as: “I’m used it” “I like the style of organization in the OS” “I like the packaging” then I wouldn’t debate that.

    However to say macs are superior in any way against pc in any technical way is just plain illogical. OSes that don’t get in the way? PC have access to more powerful hardware and they are cheaper due to mass production for years. By default they are stronger machines when you spend the same amount of money on a machine, regardless of the OS running it. Notice Apple computers have all switched to PC hardware now, Apple hardware just couldn’t keep up anymore.

    Only time a mac runs better in a benchmark against a PC is when Steve Jobs use the highest juiced up hardware Mac (that you couldn’t even purchase at the time) against a low grade PC. Talk about stacking the deck. -.-

    regarding the comments about things/types look smoother on macs. This is true, but because mac OS anti-alias everything you see on the screen. While this is nice as a user, but as a developer this is a detriment. Why? First the feature itself uses up part of your resource, so to start you system is already a step behind in computation ability for apps you are actually working in. Second, the smoothing feature is liking having beer goggles on. You create some graphics and think it looks great on your system while the other 92% of your target audience WILL NOT see the same result as you did on their screens. If you only care about the 8% of the computing community then that’s fine. As a developer for a mass audience that is a failure.

    Natalie – “My dad is a visual artist and used a Mac when I was growing up. I’ve been using one my entire computing life.”

    you said it, not me. But thanks for the Ad hominem.

  148. #148 John Morales
    November 12, 2008

    JCR @144, that’s a gross example of empty bluster.

    I call you out: care to name just one of these alleged unsupportable contentions?

  149. #149 John C. Randolph
    November 12, 2008

    I call you out: care to name just one of these alleged unsupportable contentions?

    Just one?

    Well, in #25, you claim that there’s no difference between the platforms if all one does is run apps. Your claim is patently false: one platform suffers from a plague of malware, the other does not. The occurrence of frequent crashes and performance degradation over time on one platform and not the other is certainly a difference that affects users.

    In #63, you falsely claim that I am a snob. Recognizing the obvious superiority of one product over another is not snobbery[1].

    Then in #141, you flatly reject my statement as to what my point was ( that windows is a lousy tool) and insist that my point is something entirely unrelated to what I said (that I’m a snob). This is perhaps the clumsiest example I’ve seen in years of an attempt to put words in my mouth.

    -jcr

    [1] Snobbery is the belief that one group of people is inferior to another, and I’ve made no such claim. Anyone using windows today could at any moment get fed up with it and move to a better system. I make no claim that any kind of defect on their part prevents them from doing so. For my part, I have moved to better computer platforms several times over my career (DOS to Mac, Mac to NeXT, NeXT to Mac OS X). I am quite willing to do so again whenever I see something better than the Mac.

  150. #150 John C. Randolph
    November 13, 2008

    Only time a mac runs better in a benchmark against a PC is when Steve Jobs use the highest juiced up hardware Mac (that you couldn’t even purchase at the time) against a low grade PC.

    Guess again. Every one of those demos that I’ve seen, and that you can find on YouTube, used the fastest PC hardware available at the time.

    -jcr

  151. #151 Jeanette Garcia
    November 13, 2008

    Creaky, senior citizen here, addicted to my 24″ screen Intel iMac with Leopard and my iBook. I use a Kensington Optical Orbit mouse for the old bum wrist. I would like to have a dedicated PC for playing my favorite games, The whole Myst series. Did someone mention computers?

  152. #152 Rickr0ll
    November 13, 2008

    Hey jeanette can you please tell me how to beat riven! Please please please!!

  153. #153 KeithM
    November 13, 2008

    Apple’s not going to destroy Microsoft, and they’re not trying to. Apple focuses on their customers, not on their competition.

    *cough* *cough* I’m sorry, but where the hell have you been for the last quarter century?

    Apple’s famous Superbowl commercial from 1984 was, in Jobs’ own words, a shot at IBM. And their latest advertising for the last while has been nothing but taking shots at Microsoft with the rare “Oh, our OS can do this and Vista sucks”.

  154. #154 John Morales
    November 13, 2008

    JCR @149, you claim to have stated three unsupportable claims.

    1. “Well, in #25, you claim that there’s no difference between the platforms if all one does is run apps.”
    Actually, what I wrote was “stuff-all difference between boxes or OSs these days if all one does is use apps” – my intended meaning being that the capabilities of the hardware/OS people can buy are more than sufficient to comfortably run most applications, certainly those the vast majority of people run. The rest of your comment is way outside of that intended meaning, and is not my claim (though I’d argue your claims if I cared enough, which I dont)
    I agree it was poorly phrased. I don’t agree that it’s unsupportable.
    2. “In #63, you falsely claim that I am a snob. Recognizing the obvious superiority of one product over another is not snobbery”.
    What I wrote was (in context)”I can’t imagine trying to do any other kind of artwork on a system that lacks pervasive color management.
    Clearly, you’re either a snob or you lack imagination.”
    Again, I don’t consider it unsupportable, indeed I think your posts support that claim.
    3. “in #141, you flatly reject my statement as to what my point was ( that windows is a lousy tool) and insist that my point is something entirely unrelated to what I said (that I’m a snob).”
    Your point was initially that you couldn’t imagine trying to do any other kind of artwork on a system that lacks pervasive color management, which you made under the mistaken assumption that Windows lacked OS level color management. It did, however, subsequently morph to dissing Windows.
    What I wrote was “No, your point really is that you’re a snob and think MS/Windows is inferior to Apple”. I don’t see that you’re arguing that second clause, so obviously you intend for the first to be unsupportable claim; this is the same claim as (2) above, except that that time I actually made it.

    So, regarding snob: “Snobbery is the belief that one group of people is inferior to another”; well, it’s not the definition I’d use, otherwise racism would be snobbery.
    I prefer the OED* definition for the sense in which I meant it: a person with an exaggerated respect for social position, who looks down on those with lower rank; a person who despises people considered inferor in (usually specified) attainments or tastes.
    So, it’s not an unsupportable contention.

    * sourced from my copy, (New Shorter Oxford, Third Edition 1993).

  155. #155 Kim
    November 13, 2008

    Well, I’m a devoted Linux geek myself, but Macs are ok too :D

  156. #156 RedGreenInBlue
    November 13, 2008

    stevenb,

    Thanks for the very sensible and detailed post. And although I’m not an IT admin or developer, I was thinking the same thing about MACs and Macs :-)

    Since my wife and I moved over to the Dark (well, Glass and Aluminium) Side, both sets of parents have ditched their PCs too, at the age of 60-odd, and are now well into Aperture, AirTunes and FileMaker Pro, which says something about the learning curve for Mac OS X.

    Having said that, we still run Windows on the MacBook so we can use MS Access, which I actually rather like (though I’ve never found Visual Basic very intuitive). And as for my wife’s uncle, well he’s now a hardcore Linux man, so we all look up to him!

  157. #157 negentropyeater
    November 13, 2008

    http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/11/12/politics/p123314S67.DTL

    Transition officials call it Obama 2.0 — an ambitious effort to transform the president-elect’s vast Web operation and database of supporters into a modern new tool to accomplish his goals in the White House. If it works, the new president could have an unprecedented ability to appeal for help from millions of Americans who already favor his ideas, bypassing the news media to pressure Congress.

  158. #158 bezoar
    November 13, 2008

    All this to and fro about Mac’s vs PC’s. So silly. I’m an admitted Mac Snob. I’m also an Obama snob. When you have the best it’s hard to be humble.
    I equated the Bush and Obama presidential style to Dell vs Mac. Here’s one for you. PC users, when you need to install an app how many steps does it take and how many times do you have to add drivers etc. Installing an app on a Mac is a click and it’s done. Nothing alien need be added to make it work and no blue screen of death.
    One more snobbish thing to mention. Why do you think Dell offers such great tech support? Because they NEED to. The last time I contacted Apple tech support was during sytem 7 days. I’ll bet Dell (et al) users can’t say they had such success with their machines. Let’s see, Mac’s, Atheism and Obama as President. It doesn’t get any better than that! Mac Snobs unite!

  159. #159 o_0
    November 13, 2008

    Like I said, Mac fans are so similar to the religious. Most of the arguments used against PC can be easily reversed on to Macs. Also I don’t know who started bringing up specific brands of PC, as if this was about some brand war. (I guess it makes sense for Mac users since they preference is solely based on Branding and nothing empirical).

    I tend to build my own system with oem parts, I’ve used PCs, Macs, SGI, AVID, UNIX/Linux systems for all different sorts of work and project. So I can care less about the ‘brand’ of a system I’m using. I just want the best tool for the job. General that is more of a hardware issues rather than an OS issue. PCs have better hardware, more powerful hardware, at cheaper prices and you don’t have to become a religious nut.

    PC hardware > Mac hardware
    Windows !> Mac OS && Windows !< Mac OS

  160. #160 Nicholas
    November 13, 2008

    I’d hate to break up the Mac-vs-PC war with an honest question, but with XP starting to fade into obsolescence and Vista looming as the only viable replacement I’m desperately looking to get away from Windows. However, in my experience there is no other viable alternative out there. Since there are so many self-proclaimed experts here, can someone tell me if Mac or Unix can actually:

    1) Play games? This covers about 70% of my personal computer usage, and I game less than every other computer user I know (other than my parents). Everything from old 8-bit DOS games to, well, I guess Space Empires 5 is the newest game I play. Since gaming is the primary use of my computer(s), and by that I mean at least 5 of them so I can have LAN parties without everyone carting equipment over, anything I switch to is really going to need to be fully compatible with current and older games. Is *nix or a Mac viable here, or am I stuck with a PC? And running the games in a virtual Windows installation or dual booting doesn’t really help, as that doesn’t get me away from needing to own a Windows license and dealing with Windows in general.

    2) Use powerful hardware? I work as a wedding photographer and process thousands of very large RAW files each week, which covers about 70% of my professional usage. I’m looking at building a machine right now with four quad core processors (16 cores total) for just under $2000. Most Macs I’ve looked at don’t offer anything nearly that powerful and even the slower ones (no faster than my current $600 PC) seem to run $1200+. Am I just looking in the wrong places? Or is a PC the only option. I’m quite happy with Photoshop’s performance and color management under 64-bit WinXP; I’m just concerned with the move to Vista.

    3) Offer affordable gaming computers? Right now I can buy four PCs for less than $2500 total that will run all of my multiplayer games perfectly well. Most Macs I’ve seen seem to be much more expensive than that, and I don’t know if they’re even powerful enough to run the games I want to play.

    Can all the Mac enthusiasts here convince me that switching to Mac is the right choice for me?

  161. #161 o_0
    November 13, 2008

    Nicholas have you tried out Vista yet? I personally haven’t tried it out extensively on a personal usage basis. The system I use are typically running XP pro x86 or x64. I have a system running Vista for QA purposes. (along with Macs of course).

    It’s been a long time since Vista’s initial release, by now most software and hardware producers have caught up with mods and patches. I think it will be fine to use Vista without too much problems nowadays. A few gamer friends of mine actually reports games running more smoothly under the Vista OS compared to their old XP setup. Like I said I haven’t tested this myself so I can’t tell you from experience.

    As far as your other questions goes, I’m sure you already know the answer. From power and price stand point, you can’t come close to the deal you are getting from a PC vs a Mac. Apple only just started to offer dual Xeon CPU systems, you can’t even get a 4 CPU mac.

    Here a quick price check on apple.com:
    7,748.00 Total.

    Two 3.2GHz Quad-Core Intel Xeon
    4GB (4x1GB)
    Mac Pro RAID Card (They charge $800 just for a RAID controller)
    300GB 15,000-rpm SAS
    300GB 15,000-rpm SAS
    ATI Radeon HD 2600 XT 256MB (This is not even a professional workstation card -.-)
    One 16x SuperDrive
    Apple Cinema HD Display (23″ flat panel) (They charge you $899 for monitor with 16ms refresh rate, 700:1 Contrast Ratio, this a 4-5 year old technology. All of dell’s cheapo monitors in this size range are between 2-5ms refresh rate, even their 30″ are at 8ms. Mac monitors are truly overpriced jokes)

    Apple Mighty Mouse
    Apple Keyboard + User’s Guide

  162. #162 Jeanette Garcia
    November 13, 2008

    Rickroll,

    I ended up using the cheat sheet for Riven.

  163. #163 Marc
    November 13, 2008

    I tend to build my own system with oem parts, I’ve used PCs, Macs, SGI, AVID, UNIX/Linux systems for all different sorts of work and project. So I can care less about the ‘brand’ of a system I’m using. I just want the best tool for the job. General that is more of a hardware issues rather than an OS issue. PCs have better hardware, more powerful hardware, at cheaper prices and you don’t have to become a religious nut.

    I used to put together my own machines too. I used Windows at home for over 12 years and Linux for almost 5. I switched to Mac over 4 years ago. There has been significantly less stress and fiddling.

    If I count the hours I typically spend fiddling with my Windows and Linux machine(s) during the period I have been using a Mac, I could have got a part time job on the weekends and earned enough money to get another Mac.

    And I’m just talking about time lost during normal operation, crashes, anti-virus, fixing config rubbish, broken features between releases.

    The value of a system cannot be measured in terms of power and money alone. For a lot of people who simply have no interest in messing with computers, the convenience and very high chance of never getting problems with a Mac is more than worth the asking price.

  164. #164 o_0
    November 14, 2008

    btw have you ever been to an apple store and not see a long line at the “genius” bar?

    this happened to my macbook as well
    http://www.lullabot.com/blog/attack_fifty_foot_macbook_battery

    and there is this site.
    http://www.appledefects.com

  165. #165 Thomas
    November 14, 2008

    I’m very disappointed you’re using a mac. I got to play with one recently and I couldn’t believe how shoddy it was – and the OS is just FreeBSD with a tacky paint job.

    It goes to show nobody’s perfect.

  166. #166 Marc
    November 14, 2008

    I like how people always blame Apple for the batteries. They are Sony batteries and the problem occurred with every manufacturer who uses their batteries. And it appears to be a long term problem. How do you test for that quickly?

    There are defects with everything. Assembling your own computer is not going to to save you from that.

    Laptop Statistics http://www.appledefects.com/?p=146

    More recent Consumer Report report: http://blogs.computerworld.com/apple_reliability_more_better_than_worse

    Apple is on par if not better than everyone else in the industry. The difference is, there is actually a damn decent chance of a Mac “Just Work[ing]“. This is why we use computers. To get stuff done. Not so that we can run defrag and virus scan, assemble one from parts or to configure xorg.conf.

  167. #167 Bertok
    November 14, 2008

    Hey Nicholas,

    “Can all the Mac enthusiasts here convince me that switching to Mac is the right choice for me?”

    No, we can’t. Why should we? Convince yourself. Your post is the perfect example of how one should shop for a computer. Always ask yourself “What do I want to do, where do I want to do it and how much can I spend.” I agree with o_o that you already know the answer to your questions.

    I personally think that the Mac desktop systems are way too pricey for most purposes, but they are beautiful machines. I can’t justify buying one since the Macbook Pro does everything I need very nicely (music/scientific programming).

    When I read these PC vs. Mac flame wars I always feel the same-like I need to take a shower and a nap. Why the hell can’t people just let other people use what they want? Why all the bitching and moaning? Don’t like Mac’s? Fine, don’t fucking use one. Think Vista sucks? Great, don’t run it on your box. Problem solved.

    Also, great post from stevenb. Nice to read something so well reasoned and even handed. Thanks for that Steven! Hopefully we don’t see another OS flame-battle for a long time. Booooooooriiiiiiiiiig.

  168. #168 Nicholas
    November 14, 2008

    “Nicholas have you tried out Vista yet?”
    Thanks for the rundown and confirmation that a Mac won’t work for me. I haven’t worked with Vista yet, but my understanding is that older 8-bit games run much less smoothly than on XP. Honestly, I’ve always prefered Win2000; I only moved up to XP because 2000 was getting a bit old and was no longer supported.

    Even if Vista works great I’d still like to stop giving money to Microsoft anyway. Sometimes companies do things that just leave you open mouthed at their rationality and/or ethics, like Sony and their rootkit, and in those situations I often make the decision to simply stop buying products from those companies; period. Microsoft has finally gotten to that point for me. I really really want to move to another platform, and I have to admit a little annoyance with the lack of competition in the field… :(

    “No, we can’t. Why should we? Convince yourself. Your post is the perfect example of how one should shop for a computer. Always ask yourself “What do I want to do, where do I want to do it and how much can I spend.” I agree with o_o that you already know the answer to your questions.”

    I had an inclination what the answer was, but I honestly hoped I was wrong. Which is why I asked.

  169. #169 o_0
    November 14, 2008

    Nicholas which 8-bit games are you trying to keep running on modern machines? There are tons of emulator for sort relic gaming systems from back in the days out on the web for years. You should look into it maybe. The emulators are programmed to be run on modern machines while playing rom files of older games. There probably are emulators out for 64bit based system already, if not probably soon there will be.

  170. #170 Nicholas
    November 14, 2008

    o_o, Thanks for the suggestion, but I wasn’t referring to console games; I have quite a few emulators that I know work very well :). There are still a lot of really good old DOS games that I like to play on occasion. Games like Fragile Allegiance and Dungeon Keeper don’t play well with newer Windows OSes unfortunately.

  171. #171 mayhempix
    November 14, 2008

    Of course he uses MAc… he’s intellegent.

  172. #172 John Morales
    November 14, 2008

    Nicholas, I replayed Dungeon Keeper (the original) recently, and remembered how brilliant it was – the combination of the concept and the wit of the atmosphere and the soundtrack I think have not yet been surpassed. The mechanics of game-play, unfortunately, were somewhat below-par.

  173. #173 mayhempix
    November 14, 2008

    Posted by: o_0 | November 12, 2008 2:27 PM
    Almost all low to mid level graphic artists ‘prefer’ to use macs. In the very high-end graphic sector, the typical macs just don’t cut it as a development tool.

    Complete ignorance and BS. Every great award winning graphic and motion graphic artist I know works on a Mac… and we are talking the highest grade in print, movies and commercials. Those who feel the need to to spread such silliness are either immature or posers… and probably both.

  174. #174 John Morales
    November 14, 2008

    mayhempix, you have perhaps heard of Gilles Tran? From his web site:

    I’m currently using a Dell Inspiron 8200 1.7 Gz laptop running Windows XP with 1Gb of RAM.
    I started using POV in 1993 on a 386 with 4 MB running MS-DOS 5. Those were the days?

    It’s the artist, not the tool.

  175. #175 mayhempix
    November 14, 2008

    @JM

    While I completely agree that it is the artist, not the tool, the fact still remains that most graphic artists work on Mac platforms. Sorry, but that’s just the way it is.

    And while Tran obviously knows how to produce realisitically rendered images, no one in the real art world would consider him an important artist. He is a great illustrator at best.

  176. #176 mayhempix
    November 14, 2008

    Posted by: mayhempix | November 14, 2008 5:44 PM
    Of course he uses MAc… he’s intellegent.

    LOL! Where’s my “intelligent” spellchecker when I need it?

  177. #177 John Morales
    November 14, 2008

    And while Tran obviously knows how to produce realisitically rendered images, no one in the real art world would consider him an important artist.

    Snob.

    By the way, from his page: “I live and work in Paris, France, and I am doing computer graphics as a hobby. My day job doesn’t involve graphics at all.”
    So, he’s not a real artist – not worthy.

    And you missed the point entirely – one can produce top-quality graphics (you seem to get hung up on the term “art”) on a lowly PC platform, and are arguing platform merit based on user preference rather than on platform merit.

  178. #178 mayhempix
    November 14, 2008

    @JM

    ” you seem to get hung up on the term “art”

    You seem to not understand what differentiates real art from pretty picture makers. You can call me a “snob” all you want, but it doesn’t change what real art is. Everyone thinks they are experts at child rearing and art… nothing could be further from the truth. It is always revealing when someone who is ignorant about art calls someone else a snob. Stop digging before you can’t climb back out. You really don’t want to engage me in a discussion about art because you will lose.

    FTR is PZ a “snob” because he knows IDers understand nothing about the real science of evolution?

    And as you admitted Tran is a hobbyist and not a pro. The vast majority of pros work on Macs… get used to it.

    Enough said.

  179. #179 Bertok
    November 14, 2008

    Die, stupid thread! DIE!

  180. #180 John Morales
    November 14, 2008

    mayhempix:

    And as you admitted Tran is a hobbyist and not a pro. The vast majority of pros work on Macs… get used to it.

    Fine. The vast majority of PC users work on Windows… get used to it.

    Enough said.

    Translation: I’ve been caught out in my argumentum ad populum/argumentum ad verecundiam to sustain my snobbery that somehow, Apple is superior to Windows.

  181. #181 mayhempix
    November 14, 2008

    @JR
    Too funny… I’ll let your completely non-sensical response speak for itself.
    Good luck climbing out that hole.

    @Bertok
    This is “Night of the Living PC Zombies”.
    Can’t kill them, but you sure can bait them…

    ;^ )

  182. #182 mayhempix
    November 14, 2008

    Posted by: mayhempix | November 14, 2008 9:54 PM
    @JR

    Make that @JM.
    Someone shot JR in the 80′s.

  183. #183 John Morales
    November 14, 2008

    mayhempix, Who’s JR?

  184. #184 Canuck
    November 15, 2008

    @ Nicholas at 160

    The gaming thing I can’t comment on. I use a Mac, but I have no interest in computer games, so someone else will have to advise you on this. But for your photography “processing” work, if there are repeated, routine tasks that you do all the time for work, the Mac can liberate you in a big way. The Mac’s native scripting language, AppleScript, can be pressed to service to accomplish the work for you while you go play games on your old XP machine. Other scripting systems are also present on the Mac, out of the box. So if you want to automate common work tasks, the Mac will pay you back in a big way.

  185. #185 Dahan
    November 15, 2008

    Mac, PC, etc. well, nothing will ever beat my first computer, a Commodore 64. Yes, an 8 bit computer with 64 KB of RAM. Oh my, what a processing force it was!
    BTW, my Mom’s first computer was Univac. OK, she actually didn’t work on it, but she did work for that department. Kinda cool, I think.

  186. #186 mayhempix
    November 15, 2008

    @JM

    JR Ewing was a vile wealthy character in the TV series “Dallas” played by Larry Hagman. Although I never watched the series (too much of a snob I guess), the attempt on his life in the last episode of a season permeated the media with the question “Who shot JR?”. I never heard who it was. Why I carry around in my brain such unnecessary facts like this I don’t know, however it can come in handy as I usually win in trivia games.

    As far as our exchange about artists and Macs, I would like to point out that my original comment was at another person who clearly was disseminating false info as fact. You challenged me and I responded in kind. My earlier comment about Obama’s use of a Mac as a sign of intelligence was purely in jest and meant to provoke PC worshipers who never miss a moment to attack Mac users. For most users, either platform is more than sufficient for daily needs.

    That said what say we call a truce.

  187. #187 LC
    November 15, 2008

    Um, in defense of Clinton – besides the fact that email tends to live forever – he got into office in 1992. Email was still pretty rare outside of academia & major corps that, all too often, had a choice between PROFS (you don’t want to know) and whatever the junk was that ran on the VAX. The internet was still largely academic. NetScape didn’t exist.

    And he’s both a leading edge boomer and a lifelong politician so he probably didn’t have much contact with anything related to IT.

  188. #188 John Morales
    November 15, 2008

    mayhempix, I think I owe you a surrender, not a truce.

    Upon reviewing our exchange, I feel I’ve imputed to you opinions you clearly haven’t expressed (and you probably don’t hold).
    My excuse is that I was jaundiced by the earlier exchange with JCR, and saw your first comment as a continuation of his claims whilst I was in a combative mood. Which is a pretty piss-poor excuse, but there you go.

    Therefore, I offer you an apology, and retract my unfounded claim that you’re a snob.

    For most users, either platform is more than sufficient for daily needs.

    That was precisely what I tried to say in my original comment, and I wish I’d put it as clearly as you just have.

  189. #189 John Morales
    November 15, 2008

    mayhempix: The original comment @25, that is, not the original one addressed to you.

  190. #190 mayhempix
    November 15, 2008

    @JM

    Thanks for the sincere and greatly appreciated response.

    But I must reject your surrender and insist upon a truce. Anyone who deals with jcr deserves a medal for patience and logic in the line of dense naive libertarian shrapnel. But please don’t hold it against Apple because he uses a Mac. It’s not their fault.

    Respect to you and yours.

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