Pharyngula

Responsibility: it’s a good idea

The US 6th Circut Court has just handed down a big decision: victims of abuse can sue the Vatican, and the Catholic church can be held liable for other claims against them as well. Ouch. Bleed ‘em dry, I say.

Comments

  1. #1 Your Mighty Overload
    November 25, 2008

    I just saw this too PZ, great stuff. Unfortunately, it appears they can only sue individuals, and apparently not the church itself.

  2. #2 Josh West
    November 25, 2008

    Sue the bastards back to the stone age where they belong!

    Also: Get rid of the talking iphone ad! It is loud and annoying!

  3. #3 Jeanette
    November 25, 2008

    Yayyy!!!!!

    Pedophiles, and all sexual abusers, need to be held accountable. But yeah, I’m with #1 (our mighty overload???:-) ), it’s too bad those who covered up the crimes can’t be held accountable, too.

  4. #4 Jason A.
    November 25, 2008

    The original talking ads were the straw that broke the camels back and sent me to Firefox + the Adblock addon.

    My adblock was disabled because I recently changed versions of firefox, and I saw that talking iphone ad on here earlier. Rearm adblock and no more ad.

    I highly recommend it to anyone sick of stupid ads.

  5. #5 breadmaker
    November 25, 2008

    wait before someone else gets to saying it first…
    what’s so bad about “Pedophiles, and all sexual abusers,” in an evolutionary world view… or are those things we “should” “rationally” object to by “faith”

  6. #6 Ricky
    November 25, 2008

    I don’t know why no one has yet linked to this:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k

  7. #7 NickG
    November 25, 2008

    “Jeffrey S. Lena, the attorney for the Holy See, said he was not ‘presently inclined’ to ask the U.S. Supreme Court to review the decision.”

    Dude, you better do it now. Scalia is 72 and kinda hefty across the waistline. And if he kicks the bucket, Thomas won’t know how to vote. You could be even more hosed if you give it a few years.

  8. #8 xebecs
    November 25, 2008

    What? There *is* no “evolutionary world view”. What is breadmaker talking about? Do we have a new troll?

  9. #9 Jeanette
    November 25, 2008

    @breakmaker, #5: Um… what, idiot? We don’t need “faith” to object to pedophilia. “Faith” is what “pervos” use to justify rape and pedophilia. The “evolutionists” among us can figure out that it’s wrong, and no idiot-ass religion can convince us otherwise.

  10. #10 Chris Sanford
    November 25, 2008

    What about the evidence for the Bible?? What about the kings who were named by name 200 years before they came to power (Isaiah 45). Psalms 22 says they have pierced My hands and My feet. This was 800 years before crucifixion was even practiced and 1100 years before Christ came to earth. The mathematical odds for Jesus to fulfill 7 prophesies (keep in mind He fulfilled hundreds) would be the same odds as you covering the entire earth in 4inchX4inch white tiles, with a gold star hidden underneath only one tile, and you walking up on the very first try and finding it. Oh and by the way you are blindfolded. Now you may say impossible, can you imagine what the odds would be for Him to fulfill hundreds of prophesies which He has done!!! 1/4 of the Bible is prophetic and of all the prophesies that have to do with past events all have come true, not one of them has failed. God’s Word has a 100% track record how can one disbelieve with this kind of evidence??

  11. #11 Sastra
    November 25, 2008

    The topic of the Thanksgiving sermon has been changed from “Gratitude: Appreciating His Grace” to “Forgiveness: A Christian Duty.”

  12. #12 Jeanette
    November 25, 2008

    Yeah, they went back and re-wrote that after the fact, Dumbo.

    At least go watch “The God Who Wasn’t There” before commenting on here, ignorant-ass.

  13. #13 Bjørn Østman
    November 25, 2008

    Makes me wish I was a Catholic atheist, and not simply a Protestant one.

    Perhaps I could convert and then sue?

  14. #14 Sven DiMilo
    November 25, 2008

    Mr. Sanford:
    a) I think you posted this on the wrong thread.
    b) In re:

    The mathematical odds for Jesus to fulfill 7 prophesies (keep in mind He fulfilled hundreds) would be the same odds as you covering the entire earth in 4inchX4inch white tiles, with a gold star hidden underneath only one tile, and you walking up on the very first try and finding it.

    WTF?
    (Hey, do you know a guy named Pete Rooke?)

  15. #15 SC
    November 25, 2008

    The topic of the Thanksgiving sermon has been changed from “Gratitude: Appreciating His Grace” to “Forgiveness: A Christian Duty.”

    …to “Hegemony: Who the Fuck Do We Think We Are?”

  16. #16 Jeanette
    November 25, 2008

    My above comment is directed at ignorant-ass @#10, btw.

  17. #17 Cuttlefish, OM
    November 25, 2008

    They say that “where there’s life, there’s hope”
    But I won’t hold my breath
    To see somebody sue the Pope
    And fine his ass to death

  18. #18 spurge
    November 25, 2008

    He is posting the same crap on multiple threads.

  19. #19 Dave
    November 25, 2008

    Can RICO be used against the Catholic church?

  20. #20 Sastra
    November 25, 2008

    Chris Sanford #10 wrote:

    Now you may say impossible, can you imagine what the odds would be for Him to fulfill hundreds of prophesies which He has done!!!

    Before you put this forward as evidence to others, you should research what Biblical scholars have said about the prophesies. They don’t stand up to scrutiny.

    “The gospel writers composed imaginative fiction using a method of getting at the past that involved the creative reinterpretation of ancient texts read as oracular … Any part of the Hebrew scriptures was subject to being reinterpreted for reference to Jesus.”

    That is from Randall Helms’ book, Gospel Fictions. It’s a very good book, and would give you some background on how to approach the Bible more objectively, so that you can examine the alleged prophesies as carefully and thoroughly as they deserve to be examined.

    In the spirit of the rest of this post, then, I am thankful someone once recommended it to me, and I pass the suggestion on to you, so that you may be thankful, too.

  21. #21 Your Mighty Overload
    November 25, 2008

    Breadmaker at 5

    I can’t really blame the church for getting confused about whether paedophilia is right or wrong – after all God apparently has no problems with either incest (Lot’s daughters) nor paedophilia. Wasn’t it God who gave Joshua and his men all the young girls of Jericho? What did God think they’d do with those girls – play tea-party??

    Ask yourself this question – “would I like someone to rape me, or my daughters?” If the answer is no (and I sincerely hope it is) then you now know where Atheists get their morality.

  22. #22 Holbach
    November 25, 2008

    Bleed that vatican papist and all his ill gotten property, and all his slime priest scum dry, and then let’s see if his imaginary god will come to the rescue. Blatant reality trumps imaginary bullshit any day.

  23. #23 'Tis Himself
    November 25, 2008

    God’s Word has a 100% track record how can one disbelieve with this kind of evidence??

    2Chr4:2 says that ? = 3. That kind of evidence makes it easy to disbelieve the rest of the Bible.

  24. #24 Sastra
    November 25, 2008

    I wrote:

    In the spirit of the rest of this post, then, I am thankful someone once recommended it to me, and I pass the suggestion on to you, so that you may be thankful, too.

    Ahem. Scratch that, I got threads mixed up. Change to:

    In the spirit of the rest of this post, then I hand over the responsibility of reading this book to you — along with the responsibility of not posting the exact same off-topic comment on multiple threads.

  25. #25 Kel
    November 25, 2008

    wait before someone else gets to saying it first…
    what’s so bad about “Pedophiles, and all sexual abusers,” in an evolutionary world view…

    DO you mean why is paedophilia and sexual abuse not permitted in an evolutionary world view? Because social order and the concept of consent underpin our interactions with others. The fact that we’ve evolved doesn’t change the social resistance to harming the innocent, it just means that we’ve evolved.

  26. #26 castletonsnob
    November 25, 2008

    Chris Sanford blathered:

    God’s Word has a 100% track record how can one disbelieve with this kind of evidence??

    Umm…because it’s nonsense?

  27. #27 Holbach
    November 25, 2008

    Chris Sanford @ 10
    You sound like a deranged moron with your insane shit book as a backup to your insanity. Your imaginary god does not exist except in your deluded skull. Your shit god is as useless to you as is your shit brain is to this world. Come on, bring your shit god down here to kick the crap out of us and prove that it exists. I prophesise that you are mad and should be locked up in a mental institution with your god so that you can babble to each other in tongues and puke forth more insanities to keep us in stitches. Do you think you are dealing with insane crud like yourself and others whose god has driven them into insanity and don’t know they are insane? We are laughing at you and heaping ridicule on you and your ghost god. What are you going to do about it? Your shit god exists as long as you do; if you don’t believe me cut off your head and see if you can still think about this shit god of yours. I’ve given you enough reason to bring it down and beat the crap out of me. I bet you can’t do it, moron.

  28. #28 Your Mighty Overload
    November 25, 2008

    ChrisSanford at 10

    The oldest biblical texts which exist are the dead sea scrolls – which are dated to only 150 – 70BC. No work from 800 – 1100 BC exists, so we really don’t know whether those “prophesies” were written before or after the fact.

    We do know, based upon linguistic and textual analysis, that large tracts of the bible were copied from each other, while other were obviously written long after their alleged time of writing.

    Finally, of course, the printing press was not invented until 1439, meaning copies before this (nearly three-quarters the time since Jesus lived) were inherently unreliable. Likewise, all the grammar you see in the modern bible were later additions, all of which together strongly suggests that what you read in your bible is only a remnant of what was written.

  29. #29 Jeanette
    November 25, 2008

    @Sastra @24: Oh, you are so right! Chris Sanford is just pasting the same crap on every thread. Even my own post on that last thread is better than his.

    Let’s not even bother laughing at this troll. LAME.

  30. #30 Jeanette
    November 25, 2008

    Oh, or maybe “spurge” noticed it first. Hi, spurge! Who are you?

    <3, ~Jeanette

  31. #31 spurge
    November 25, 2008

    Hi!

    Mostly a long time lurker.

    I post rarely.

  32. #32 Yvette
    November 25, 2008

    They couldn’t already? It’s about freaking time.

  33. #33 Holbach
    November 25, 2008

    Poor insane creep Chris Sanford can’t get his god to come down and beat the crap out of us. Hey moron, why can’t you do this? Come on, we’ll wait here for your shit god. How come it can’t be done and never will be done? Why don’t you cut your head off and see if your god can put it back on? If this can be done then I’ll take back all the crap I said about you. How about it? Bring it down!

  34. #34 MikeG
    November 25, 2008

    Jeane,
    Spurge may be an “unknown” but I will vouch for him/her.

    S/he’s been on a deep sea research vessel. That has to count for something.

  35. #35 Lago
    November 25, 2008

    “Also: Get rid of the talking iphone ad! It is loud and annoying!”

    ditto

    ditto

    ditto

    ditto

    ditto

  36. #36 spurge
    November 25, 2008

    LAB BOY!

    Anything interesting come out of your work from the cruse yet?

  37. #37 John Morales
    November 25, 2008

    What ad?

  38. #38 Tulse
    November 25, 2008

    The mathematical odds for Jesus to fulfill 7 prophesies (keep in mind He fulfilled hundreds) would be the same odds as you covering the entire earth in 4inchX4inch white tiles, with a gold star hidden underneath only one tile, and you walking up on the very first try and finding it.

    F – did not show your work.

  39. #39 Nerd of Redhead
    November 25, 2008

    I gotta admire the stoopid where somebody like Chris Sanford goes straight to the bible while skipping over the minor problem of proving his imaginary god exists. After all, no god, no holy book.

  40. #40 chgo_liz
    November 25, 2008

    @ #22:

    Bleed that vatican papist and all his ill gotten property, and all his slime priest scum dry

    From your mouth to god’s ears…oh, wait…

  41. #41 MikeG
    November 25, 2008

    Well, we have lots of bacterial and fungal colonies that I have been trying to get isolated, but the problem with the deep is that it’s cold. So the cultures have to be grown at 4*C (refrigerator temp). That takes a little while ;-).

    I still haven’t had time to add some of the pictures that I took on the cruise to the blog, but I will try to get them up. I guess the sunrise pix could be put up without too much editorializing, but they’re not too edifying.

    The deep sea has some really weird stuff in it. Especially for a microbiologist formerly specializing in subtropical coastal stuff.

  42. #42 pharynguphobe
    November 25, 2008

    “Rail, rail against religion so I can make that god really NOT TRUE!!!!”

    As opposed to being comfortably certain that said god does not exist, and shutting one’s gob about it because of said confidence.

    But with the way you choose, ad nauseaum ad infinitum, you just look insecure and sound really, really pitiful and whiny.

  43. #43 Robert
    November 25, 2008

    Re: #10 – Chris Sanford, the point you overlooked was that the people who wrote the New Testament (and Jesus and the Disciples themselves) knew the Old Testament prophecies. In order to convince people that Jesus was the Messiah, they would have gone out of the way to fake the results. Evidence for that is that there numerous other “messiah-wannabes” who were caught faking the prophesied results.

    Ditto for the named kings. Guess what? Jewish kings took a new name on coronation. Guess where they would look for inspiration?

    You can’t use Biblical prophecy, which was known by the early Christians, as proof of Jesus’ divinity. The simpler explanation is that the books were cooked to make sure they matched the prophecies.

  44. #44 spurge
    November 25, 2008

    Very cool Mike. I hope you can find the time to post the pics and write about your work.

    It must be really hard to culture stuff you know nothing about?

    I hope your cruise pics are better than your space shuttle shot ;)

  45. #45 Eetto
    November 25, 2008

    This means nothing since regardless of what a US court tells them the Vatican will not pay out. Then you have to choose between withdrawing egg on face or parachuting special forces into Rome. It basically comes down to that.

  46. #46 Brian Macker
    November 25, 2008

    OT: Weird Squid. What is it?

  47. #47 Your Mighty Overload
    November 25, 2008

    pharynguphobe at 42

    Try to separate claims of the existence of God and the very real harm caused by the church for a second. Suing the church is a way of eroding the power of a corrupt organization with the set aim of world domination.

    This has nothing to do with the existence or otherwise of any God / Gods / witchs / hobgoblins / pixies / faeries or trolls.

    Actually, we know the last ones exist, sadly.

    When the religious in society stop trying to enforce their beliefs on other people (faith based laws, church schools, etc) then us secularists will have no need to push back.

  48. #48 MikeG
    November 25, 2008

    Hey, I tried with the SS pic. ;-)

    I hope the cruise pix are better too, but I’ll post there rather than here. This thread ain’t the place.

    Culturing stuff we know nothing about is a crap shoot. But if it isn’t in culture, it’s impossible to know what it’s doing, or capable of doing. I’ll add something over the weekend.

    (Inadvertent thread hijack over, I gotta crash.)

  49. #49 spurge
    November 25, 2008

    It is getting late.

    I hope the OT posts will be forgiven.

  50. #50 castletonsnob
    November 25, 2008

    Anyone have any idea what pharynguphobe is talking about? I’ve misplaced my nutter to English dictionary.

  51. #51 Steve_C
    November 25, 2008

    Uh Brian. Go to PZ’s post. Weird Creatures Lurk In The Depths.

    It’ll answer your question.

  52. #52 Shaun
    November 25, 2008

    F – did not show your work.

    Congradulations Tulse, now I have to clean up the mess from the juice that came out my nose after reading that.

    (I was drinking juice at the time, I don’t have some sort of magical juice-making nose.)

  53. #54 Jeff Satterley
    November 25, 2008

    Another good decision by the courts:

    Florida courts overturns a law disallowing gay couples from adopting children. See the story here

  54. #55 Graeme Elliott
    November 26, 2008

    Re. That waffle printed at 10

    I know you shouldn’t feed or engage trolls, but one instant bit of disproof:

    Cruxifiction took place either using rope or heavy iron nails placed just below the wrists. Nails in the hands would have ripped out (under the victims weight) rendering the torture aspect worthless. So that’s one prophesy struck down. Next?

    (I apologise for spelling errors. It’s very late here!)

  55. #56 JamesR
    November 26, 2008

    Don’t give Sanford the time. His response appears elsewhere verbatim and when he re responds it is exactly the dame. PZ block him.

    Maybe we could get relief from these vatican thugs if they were declared terrorists. And seize their world wide assets.

  56. #57 Capital Dan
    November 26, 2008

    Chris Sanford: Using the Bible to prove the Bible, one word at a time.

    Please put the crazy back in the box.

  57. #58 Katkinkate
    November 26, 2008

    Posted by: breadmaker @ 5 “wait before someone else gets to saying it first… what’s so bad about “Pedophiles, and all sexual abusers,” in an evolutionary world view… or are those things we “should” “rationally” object to by “faith”.”

    They are destructive of the peace and prosperity of the greater society. They destroy the trust, self-confidence and mental (and sometimes physical) health of the victims, disabling them, often for the rest of their lives, thus reducing their potential contributions to and participation in society. These actions also teach at least some of the next generation to continue the damaging behaviour. You can’t expect to live in a peaceful, safe, prosperous society when a substantial proportion of the population do not feel at peace, safe or content with their circumstances.

  58. #59 Kendo
    November 26, 2008

    pharynguphobe #42

    “Rail, rail against religion so I can make that god really NOT TRUE!!!!”

    As opposed to being comfortably certain that said god does not exist, and shutting one’s gob about it because of said confidence.

    First of all, your ironic pseudo-quoting of some imagined atheist reveals an assumption that your particular brand of magical thinking is somehow common to all people. Now while I would go so far as to say that all minds can be deluded, we can hope to limit the comfortable certainty that so often can be the result of delusion; and not just your specific form of delusion, by the way.

    Secondly, as to “shutting one’s gob about it”, I could perhaps make a case that continuous, non-violent, stridently vocal protest is the most successful method so far, of bringing some degree of justice to those of us who use the delusion of others to perpetrate evil; this is to comment on the story that illustrates the title of this thread. I find it hard to believe that those Catholic Priests who commit criminal acts amongst their flock, are taken in by the mind-polluting garbage with which they terrorize impressionable children. Otherwise, I would be calling for their treatment as dangerously deluded patients instead of celebrating their treatment as criminals.

  59. #60 Teleprompter
    November 26, 2008

    @ pharynguphobe #42

    “‘Rail, rail against religion so I can make that god really NOT TRUE!!!!’

    As opposed to being comfortably certain that said god does not exist, and shutting one’s gob about it because of said confidence.

    But with the way you choose, ad nauseaum ad infinitum, you just look insecure and sound really, really pitiful and whiny.”

    Railing? It’s a nice thing to grip or hold onto when you’re walking down the stairs. It helps prevent me from tripping and then falling flat on my face. Maybe you could use one when you post to prevent that from happening to you?

    If I am comfortably certain that a god does not exist, why does it naturally follow that I should shut my mouth about it? Do people who are comfortably certain that a god DOES exist shut their mouth about it? Absolutely not — they try to impose their beliefs on the rest of us. Until those efforts are relinquished, we are going to continue to push back. Personally, I am too tired of the interference in people’s personal lives and in American government and the negative stereotyping of non-Christians and non-theists not to open my mouth.

    Also, theists who panic about billboards that say “Imagine There is No God” and ads on buses that say “Be Good for Goodness’s Sake” strike me as phenomenally insecure. If these people are so certain about their faith, why is a bus ad or a billboard creating hysteria? Riddle me that, Batman.

    Additionally, people who carelessly throw around Latin phrases instead of just saying what they mean are more of the ones who sound “insecure” to me. I’m saying what I mean in plain English – I don’t need to sound pretentious to say what I believe in reasonable terms.

    Lastly, “pitiful and whiny” is more appropriate to describe someone who expends the effort to complain about other people’s opinions in a condescending manner without actually thinking about what’s being said, such as yourself.

  60. #61 BobC
    November 26, 2008

    Catholic priests like to sexually abuse children, but there is a solution.

  61. #62 Kalirren
    November 26, 2008

    Nice. I’m glad to see a step in this direction. I was afraid it was going to happen everywhere else but here in the defunct US of A.

    Incidentally, has anyone here been keeping tabs on the Canadian Human Rights Committee’s investigation of the hate speech complaint against the Catholic priest who railed against gay marriage rights? I’ve been trying to find news of it since June when it first broke, but haven’t really succeeded.

  62. #63 Azkyroth
    November 26, 2008

    They are destructive of the peace and prosperity of the greater society. They destroy the trust, self-confidence and mental (and sometimes physical) health of the victims, disabling them, often for the rest of their lives, thus reducing their potential contributions to and participation in society. These actions also teach at least some of the next generation to continue the damaging behaviour. You can’t expect to live in a peaceful, safe, prosperous society when a substantial proportion of the population do not feel at peace, safe or content with their circumstances.

    Additionally, even if a given act of adult-child sex cannot be shown to have such negative effects, the evidence that adult-child sex tends to is overwhelming, justifying a blanket ban.

  63. #64 spooky
    November 26, 2008

    So … if the victims can only prosecute the individuals involved can we get a class action from the perpetrators suing the catholic church for doing nothing about them?

    That would be nice. Money from the church goes through the perp and to the victims.

  64. #65 CosmicTeapot
    November 26, 2008

    Chris Sans Brain at 10

    The Bible is prophetic pathetic.

    There, fixed.

  65. #66 clinteas
    November 26, 2008

    Hey scooter man,

    where have you been hiding lately?
    Nice clip BTW….

    I cant see the Vatican accepting that some court in the USA has jurisdiction over it,but its a nice thought….
    Its like the chick who left her mobile at a Mackers,some dude posted her nude pics on it on the net,and theyre now suing McD…

  66. #67 Anton Mates
    November 26, 2008

    I know you shouldn’t feed or engage trolls, but one instant bit of disproof:

    Even instanter–it’s a mistranslation, and the New Testament doesn’t claim it is a prophecy.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/They_have_pierced_my_hands_and_my_feet

  67. #68 Mrs Tilton
    November 26, 2008

    Gibbering Jesus Fan @10,

    covering the entire earth in 4inchX4inch white tiles, with a gold star hidden underneath only one tile, and you walking up on the very first try and finding it. Oh and by the way you are blindfolded

    If the entire earth is covered by them tiles, Chris, how does my being blindfolded make that feat any more impressive? Oh, that’s right; it doesn’t. But it blew your poor wee mind when you heard some ignorant preacher say it, so you thought it would blow ours as well. Sorry, but this is what I believe the young people call an “epic fail”.

    (Bonus question for the maths wonks in the audience: can one tesselate a sphere using square tiles?)

  68. #69 rpenner
    November 26, 2008

    It’s a little hard to read, but the circuit court upheld the partial dismissal of claims against the Vatican, leaving some fo the claims. So, both courts agreed that the Vatican wasn’t 100% fireproof in this case.

    http://www.ca6.uscourts.gov/opinions.pdf/08a0417p-06.pdf

    Orignial case: 3:04-cv-00338-JGH

  69. #70 Tilsim
    November 26, 2008

    From the article

    The ruling is seen as a breakthrough by those allegedly abused by priests. Investigators and grand juries have found several instances where the church failed to report alleged abusers and covered up alleged misdeeds to protect them.

    Almost sounds as if the journalist is scared to be sued herself.

  70. #71 Jonas E
    November 26, 2008

    The big question is: Does the Vatican have to abide by a ruling in a US court? I am quite sure the answer is no.

  71. #72 Cath the Canberra Cook
    November 26, 2008

    Mrs Tilton asks: Bonus question for the maths wonks in the audience: can one tesselate a sphere using square tiles?

    My days as a maths wonk are decades behind me, but no.

    However, if you were to take a limit of the size of the mismatch, as the size of the tile goes to zero and the size of the sphere to infinity, then my intuition is almost certainly yes :)

  72. #73 Rudi
    November 26, 2008

    “I find it hard to believe that those Catholic Priests who commit criminal acts amongst their flock, are taken in by the mind-polluting garbage with which they terrorize impressionable children. Otherwise, I would be calling for their treatment as dangerously deluded patients instead of celebrating their treatment as criminals.”

    The priests in question don’t believe one scrap of the drivel they spout. Unless they genuinely accept that everlasting torment in the fires of Hell is a price worth paying for a few minutes of child violation. (Though I suppose, when you consider the depravity required to commit such an act, it is not utterly implausible that they’d think like this.)

  73. #74 Emmet Caulfield
    November 26, 2008

    Bonus question for the maths wonks in the audience: can one tesselate a sphere using square tiles?

    No, but one can titillate a square using spheres on the scale of his/her sphincter.

  74. #75 BaldySlaphead
    November 26, 2008

    @10: “not one of them has failed”

    Ezekiel 29:15 refers to how Egypt shall never be an important kingdom in the aftermath of the Egyptian’s 40 year expulsion from the lands in Ezekiel 29 (which has already been conclusively proved to be cack by dint of not, er… happening.)

    29:15 It shall be the basest of the kingdoms; neither shall it exalt itself any more above the nations: for I will diminish them, that they shall no more rule over the nations.

    Rather unfortunately for ol ‘Zeke, this is very far from the truth. Under the Fatimids, a Shi’i Muslim sect, Egypt became the centre of an enormous great empire that very much ruled over other nations, including Sicily, Palestine, Syria, North Africa and more.

    What have you to say to that, Captain Wrong of Wrongland?

  75. #76 Iain Walker
    November 26, 2008

    Robert (#43):

    You can’t use Biblical prophecy, which was known by the early Christians, as proof of Jesus’ divinity. The simpler explanation is that the books were cooked to make sure they matched the prophecies.

    Furthermore, Jesus himself is portrayed as going out of his way to “fulfil” certain prophecies – i.e., he is shown to know about them, and to ensure that his actions conform to them – which of course renders said prophecies useless in terms of evidence. So if the gospel writers were happy to show their hero engaged in the conscious manipulation of Old Testament prophecies for his own ends, it’s hardly a stretch to conclude that they would have no misgivings about doing the same in their writings.

  76. #77 breadmaker
    November 26, 2008

    #8 xebecs
    no… i have an unusually high tolerance for middle school humor… i like you guys… my comment was morea lond the lines of double reverse sarcasm

    #58 kateinakate
    i would prefer “stability” over that entire paragraph…
    peace and such things are too subjective and internal

    #21 Your mighty overload
    restraining ones comments to the context of the post… does the Roman Catholic Church even know that the bible is still around… it has been my impression that they don’t use it… so yes it is very reasonable that they would be confused

  77. #78 xebecs
    November 26, 2008

    What have you to say to that, Captain Wrong of Wrongland?

    Sadly, “Captain Wrong of Wrongland”, though a notably humorous title, is by no means uniquely descriptive. Using mathematical regression analysis and readily available scientific facts (but oddly, not a single scrap of “Biblical evidence”), I have determined that there are no fewer than 325,119,999 human beings alive today who have attained the title. The specific CWoW in question is merely one among that myriad.

  78. #79 xebecs
    November 26, 2008

    breadmaker: Glad to hear it. The double reverse successfully faked me out. And sorry I didn’t recognize your name, but I only have time to skim these days, and I don’t always notice the names.

  79. #80 SteveM
    November 26, 2008

    Isn’t posting the very same comment in multiple threads a dungeonnable offense? I say Chris Sanford has very quickly earned himself a nice little cell.

  80. #81 Stephen Oberski
    November 26, 2008

    @71

    The big question is: Does the Vatican have to abide by a ruling in a US court? I am quite sure the answer is no.

    But surely they would render unto Caesar … ?

    And more to the point, they have lots of US assets, at least US$4 billion in the LA area alone (according to LA Times articles on the catholic child rape cases in that area). Many of these assets are in the form of real-estate (and not just churches, we are talking office buildings etc.) so they can’t be moved off shore that easily.

  81. #82 pharynguphat
    November 26, 2008

    re: Overload @ 47

    You miss the point of my post.

    Entirely.

    Not an atypical response of the heavy-breathing Pharynguphilic Sycophantic Horde.

    And as for a direct response to what you then said. . .you sir, need to take anti-paranoid medications. “World domination?”

    “Millions of people hate what they think is the Catholic Church. In the end, less than a thousand hate the Church for what it really is.”

    GK Chesterton, I think.

  82. #83 breadmaker
    November 26, 2008

    xebecs
    thanks,
    1. i have a drier sense of humor than the guy who hosted the expelled movie.
    2. but niether am i an athiest, its jsut that i don’t follow after things i can’t experience
    3. and i like environment where people give eachother a very hard time.

  83. #84 Infophile
    November 26, 2008

    Pharyngufat @ 82

    That would have been a more effective rebuttal if you’d said just what the point of your post in fact was. As it is, it’s meaningless. Anyone can use a defense like whenever people counter their points, even if they’re making valid arguments.

    In short, if people are missing your point, clarify your point. Don’t just say they’re missing the point and expect that to be a winning argument.

  84. #85 Nerd of Redhead
    November 26, 2008

    I get Pharyngufat. He doesn’t like us, but can’t stay away like a good little boy. Every now and then he thinks of something he thinks is witty and posts it. Most of us go WTF. Just another pointless troll.

  85. #86 castletonsnob
    November 26, 2008

    So, pharynguphobe (#42) is calling him/herself pharynguphat (#82)now?

    I’m thinking multiple personality disorder–it would explain the incoherence and chronic Catholicism.

  86. #87 Teleprompter
    November 26, 2008

    @ pharynguphat #82

    Thanks for not responding to my reply. ;D

  87. #88 Your Mighty Overload
    November 26, 2008

    Pharyngufat @ 82

    If I missed your point, well guess who’s fault that is? How about trying to write in a clear, concise manner?

    As for the “world domination” comment, do you deny that the Catholic Church is actively trying to recruit as many followers as possible, and does it not logically conclude that their final aim must be to convert everyone to their “teachings”. Sounds pretty much like aiming for world domination to me.

  88. #89 Malcolm
    November 26, 2008

    I got the impression that the Pharyngufat/phobe/fool troll’s point was that the mean atheists should shut up and stop making it think about its ridiculous beliefs.
    Just another troll begging to be plonked.

  89. #90 John Morales
    November 27, 2008

    The Vatican is going green: “Vatican unveils ambitious solar energy plans”. (my bold)

    But they’re still the poor:

    The 1.2 million euro ($2.37 million) system, devised and donated by German companies SolarWorld and SMA Solar Technology, will allow the city-state to cut its carbon dioxide emissions by about 225 tonnes and save the equivalent of 80 tonnes of oil each year.
    […]Cardinal Giovanni Lajolo, the governor of Vatican City, said the Vatican was thinking of a much more ambitious project at a huge tract of land it owns north of Rome which is used as a transmission centre for Vatican Radio.
    “We are thinking of a solar energy system on 300 hectares at the site,” he said.

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