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Radio reminder

Category: Godlessness
Posted on: November 9, 2008 7:37 AM, by PZ Myers

This morning at 9am Central, tune in to Atheists Talk radio for a discussion of atheists in the military — it turns out there are atheists in foxholes.

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Comments

Posted by: Michael | November 9, 2008 7:59 AM

Of course there are atheists in foxholes!!! I am Marine vetran with most of my time in Special Operation Capable units involved in many conflicts, expeditions and operations. No acceptance of the mystical sky fairy with me!

Posted by: barry21 | November 9, 2008 8:28 AM

Michael, thank you for your service.

Posted by: FTFKDad | November 9, 2008 8:49 AM

Yes there are. Colorado Springs has a large army and airforce presence - and the local Free Thinkers group (http://www.freethinkerscs.com/) has plenty of members from both. Come and join us!

Posted by: magetoo | November 9, 2008 9:05 AM

This morning at 9am Central,

...which is 15:00 UTC, before anyone asks. (or see here for a list of time zones and places)

Posted by: C. Van Ark | November 9, 2008 9:06 AM

aparently you can only listen live if you live in Minnesota.

Posted by: SC | November 9, 2008 9:17 AM

aparently you can only listen live if you live in Minnesota.

Just enter a Minnesota zip code. Almost anything beginning with 55: 55331, for example.

Posted by: i are evolved | November 9, 2008 9:19 AM

Alright, Pharyngulans, science away this one: http://www.speroforum.com/site/article.asp?id=16590&t=Marta+the+Possessed%3A+A+sobering+tale+of+exorcism

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM | November 9, 2008 9:25 AM

Why should we trust that?

Posted by: Burning Umbrella | November 9, 2008 9:29 AM

Assee dee dee dee dah!

#10

Posted by: Nick Gotts | November 9, 2008 9:30 AM

i are evolved,
There's nothing there but a fairly ordinary combination of psychopathology and suggestibility. Grow up.

#11

Posted by: I am so wise | November 9, 2008 9:33 AM

Given the massive size of the Warsaw Pact forces, the Chinese military, the armed forces of the SFRY, Albania, and so forth, how could anyone possibly believe that there were no atheists in foxholes?

This is a pretty silly urban legend and its widespread acceptance does not reflect well on those who propagate it.

#12

Posted by: Burning Umbrella | November 9, 2008 9:35 AM

Not to mention that "Atheists in Foxholes" have their own website.

#13

Posted by: SC | November 9, 2008 9:36 AM

Maybe it'll work here.

Be gone, Zebulibertarians!

#14

Posted by: Nick Gotts | November 9, 2008 9:43 AM

I'm tempted to adopt the nym Zebulon - it has a certain ring to it. Hmm, maybe it's Zebulon tempting me to do it!

#15

Posted by: Tony Sidaway | November 9, 2008 9:48 AM

What time is that in South Georgia?

#16

Posted by: SC | November 9, 2008 9:51 AM

Hmm, maybe it's Zebulon tempting me to do it!

Well, he does seem to be a publicity hound.

#17

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM | November 9, 2008 9:54 AM

Well, he does seem to be a publicity hound.

You'd think he would have invited more people to watch.

Seems that hands turning into talons would have been a big hit.

#18

Posted by: 'Tis Himself | November 9, 2008 11:22 AM

Many years ago, when I was in the U.S. Army in beautiful, sunny Southeast Asia, I got into a minor bit of trouble by telling an army chaplain that we didn't need a christian chaplain in the unit, we needed a satanist. My argument was that Jebus is supposed to take care of us, it's the other side we've got to worry about, so we need someone to propitiate Satan. This argument did not go down well with the Southern Baptist chaplain.

#19

Posted by: Todd | November 9, 2008 11:41 AM

I spent 20 years in the Air Force, all as an atheist (now I'm a godless liberal teaching biology at a local community college - maybe I should start a blog...).

For a list of other foxhole atheists check out the Military Assocation of Atheists and Freethinkers at http://www.maaf.info/.

#20

Posted by: SC | November 9, 2008 11:59 AM

That was an interesting interview, especially the discussion of military chaplains and the statement they're asking chaplains to sign. Unfortunately, I didn't catch the whole show.

She mentioned the work of the Military Religious Freedom Foundation several times. I think PZ has linked to it in the past, but I'll post another link:

http://militaryreligiousfreedom.org/

#21

Posted by: Bjorn Watland | November 9, 2008 12:38 PM

The podcast is up. Thanks for listening!

#22

Posted by: Graculus | November 9, 2008 12:43 PM

There are no atheists in foxholes Just re-iterates the undesirability of foxholes, IMO.

#23

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 9, 2008 1:10 PM

#7: Seriously?

He insists on the seriousness of the matter. He points out that in the Old Testament, the word "Satan" appears eighteen times. And in the New Testament, the word "devil" appears thirty-five times and the word "demon" appears twenty-one times.

Man! That is serious!!! That's like...uh...74 times! Hey, how come no demons in the OT?

#24

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 9, 2008 1:14 PM

Ooh! Ooh! I think it's starting to get good:

Beneath the church, Father Fortea opens the chapel where he says daily Mass and then locks it from the inside. The chapel is small and inviting. The exorcist asks for help in bringing a large heavy mattress, covered in green plastic, to the foot of the altar. The window-less rectangular chapel is about twenty-five yards square. At its head is an enormous altar covered by white linen. There are six candles burning before a great cross of the Trinity, which is barely lit by a flickering halogen lamp.

#25

Posted by: SC | November 9, 2008 1:15 PM

I have to admit, though, I quite like "to science away" as a verb.

"There were people who believed in homeopathy until we scienced that nonsense away."

#26

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 9, 2008 1:16 PM

Aaaa. Nope. False alarm.

#27

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 9, 2008 1:20 PM

When the girl hears Father Fortea invoke the name of St. George, she grunts and then turns her eyes up into their sockets, arches her body, and rises completely off the mattress. I can't believe it.

I am so trying that the next time I get...you know...the chance.

#28

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 9, 2008 1:22 PM

#9: ha!

#29

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 9, 2008 1:24 PM

While Father Fortea continues to exhort Zebulon, the girl's hands have been transformed into talons.

Ah. Yeah, OK, second thoughts about the whole trying-it thing.

#30

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 9, 2008 1:43 PM

In this case, as in any other discovery or human story, there are three possible attitudes: someone duped the witnesses to the exorcism, the witnesses are lying, or demons really do exist and take possession of another spirit since human beings are nothing but a combination of body and spirit.

False trichotomy. Everyone involved could easily have been both sincere and deluded. There is little limit on the mind's ability to completely fool itself.

#31

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 9, 2008 1:47 PM

Jeez, the intrepid journalist is returning for more. By the way, Marta the "demoniac," described as "a young, apparently sweet girl" is actually twenty years old.

#32

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 9, 2008 1:51 PM

"Alright, you asked for it," says Fr. Fortea, "I'm going to splash holy water on you."

Oo! Oo! Next the comfy chair!!!

#33

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | November 9, 2008 1:56 PM

Walking towards the tabernacle, they stop before ancient statue of the Virgin Mary. "Kiss the feet that will one day crush your head," orders Fr. Fortea.

#34

Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | November 9, 2008 2:15 PM

While Father Fortea continues to exhort Zebulon, the girl's hands have been transformed into talons.

Someone didn't get their homologies right. Claws are fingernails, not entire hands. Please!

In this case, as in any other discovery or human story, there are three possible attitudes: someone duped the witnesses to the exorcism, the witnesses are lying, or demons really do exist and take possession of another spirit since human beings are nothing but a combination of body and spirit.

False trichotomy. Everyone involved could easily have been both sincere and deluded. There is little limit on the mind's ability to completely fool itself.

It's very similar to Lewis's "Lord, Liar, Lunatic" trilemma, the counterargument to which is the "Liar, Lunatic, Jedi" trilemma: is Luke Skywalker lying when he says he singlehandedly destroyed the Death Star and defeated the Empire, is he a lunatic for really believing it, or is he really a Jedi and the Force is with him?

#35

Posted by: sus | November 9, 2008 9:10 PM

Thank you so much for posting this; it's encouraging to hear I'm not alone. I'm a military spouse, and my partner and I have numerous stories about their forcing religion on us, like the weekly Christian devotionals he receives while deployed, or like them making us meet with a chaplain so I could move back where I'm from while he's deployed (I asked for the most liberal of the 4 chaplains, all Christian of course, and they recommended the Baptist one as being the most liberal). Our how about prayers before meetings and events? Or bosses asking everyone in the office if they're Christian? Or how about praise music on the one and only radio station run by the base? It goes on and on and on.

The woman on the radio mentioned that chaplains are not trained in counseling, but I don't think that's entirely accurate. Yes, they are individually trained in whatever seminary they attend, but they do also go through military training, and I believe some minimal instruction on counseling is part of that. They are officially part of the counseling arm of the military, so you're always advised to seek "your chaplain or family advocacy center."

#36

Posted by: Jerry Billings | November 9, 2008 9:23 PM

Of course there are Atheists in foxholes and I am actually amazed that we still hear the same old BS about it. I was such an Atheist during WW II when I was a combat infantryman on Okinawa. I had a friend in my company (L Co 381st Reg, 96th Division) who sahered my opinion with me so that makes 2 of us. Now I am 82 years old and I think that at this age I have just dug a new foxhole. I prepaid my wife's and my cremation by the Neptune Society, now I intend to hold on as long as I am in fairly good health. My ashes will be disposed of in the veteran's cemetary without the formula recitation by some damned chaplain. Unlike my Christian neighbors, I have no fear of being judged and consequently no fear of death.

#37

Posted by: Mike | November 10, 2008 7:27 AM

I spent just under two years over in Iraq and I was lucky. The Iraqi base I was stationed at only had a small contingent of Coalition troops and did not warrant a full time chaplain. I only had to deal with one when they showed up - rather infrequently. I heard through the grape-vine about some of my friends in other units being pressured to attend some sort of christian service. Blech...

#38

Posted by: kermit | November 10, 2008 10:58 AM

i are evolved - on the military psych ward I worked at, we had Jesus and Satan at the same time. I must say that they were both amiable, and got along well during group therapy.

Another staffer on the ward was an evangelical who thought that if the mean ole' military would just let him pray over the patients, he could cure them. But he never explained why he thought he should cure Jesus. Do you have any thoughts on that, i are evolved? It's not like they could have been delusional or anything, right?

Disclaimers:
I was and still am an atheist, but I never got to visit any foxholes.
I acknowledge the possibility that Poe's Law applies to your post, in which case it applies to mine also.

#39

Posted by: Carl | November 10, 2008 7:14 PM

I received so much grief about my declaration of atheist as my "religious preference" when I was in 1stMARDIV that I actually changed it to "Shaolin". I figured they wouldn't leave me alone until I had some kind of religious beliefs to back my moral compass and those crazy kung-fu grandmasters are pretty cool anyway if you ask me.

That was in 1996. In 2003 I went to Iraq when the war kicked off, with my Shaolin dog tags around my neck once again.

Best part was a Navy Chaplin who was making sure he had to proper materials with him to accommodate all of the units religious needs...

He was so nice when he asked me what Shaolin gear he should tow along, I was overwhelmed with guilt and I just had to let him off the hook.

When I told him I was an atheist he just smiled. As he walked away I asked him "what would he have done for my last right had I been hit before this conversation?"

He quickly replied "I would have asked you to snatch the pebble from my hand of course"

So yes. Plenty of atheists in fox holes. Danger and death are not sufficient force to induce religion. Sorry....