…and this is a 
The Wall Street Journal editorial pages are a very silly place
Category: Kooks
Posted on: November 21, 2008 10:03 AM, by PZ Myers
The United States has some serious problems: an ugly war, a shaky economy, a bad government (on the way out, at last). It's been a rough eight years. So of course it must be someone's fault, and Daniel Henninger has a simple explanation: blame the atheists. Especially blame the atheist's successful war on Christmas. He says, "A nation whose people can't say 'Merry Christmas' is a nation capable of ruining its own economy." You see, we've all lost the important values of "responsibility, restraint, and remorse" that Christianity inculcates.
It has been my view that the steady secularizing and insistent effort at dereligioning America has been dangerous. That danger flashed red in the fall into subprime personal behavior by borrowers and bankers, who after all are just people. Northerners and atheists who vilify Southern evangelicals are throwing out nurturers of useful virtue with the bathwater of obnoxious political opinions.
The point for a healthy society of commerce and politics is not that religion saves, but that it keeps most of the players inside the chalk lines. We are erasing the chalk lines.
Feel free: Banish Merry Christmas. Get ready for Mad Max.
Wait, what? The country has been run for the last eight years by a gang of amoral atheists? Bankers are atheists? All those people who borrowed money unwisely are atheists? Christians don't default on loans, don't exploit lax banking rules, don't start wars, don't torture?
I would like to visit Mr Henninger's alternate dimension.
Here on my planet, of course, this country has been run by the evangelical wing of the Republican party, the vast majority of the population are Christians, it's almost impossible to get elected to positions of any power without being a professing theist, and the religious right has been deeply tangled in political decisions, while atheists do little more than write books. Nobody has banned "Merry Christmas" — militant atheists like Dawkins (and Myers) happily put up Christmas trees every December, although of course we do regard it as an entirely secular holiday.
I'm not at all concerned about people who say "Merry Christmas", and don't really think whether you say the magic mantra or not has much of an effect on the economy. I'm much more worried that the editorial staff at the Wall Street Journal, who all seem to be delusional loons, might be influencing the management of our economy.
Maybe Mr Henninger needs to read Kathleen Parker, who at least has noticed that the Republican party has become the god-walloping know-nothing party, and that maybe that has something to do with the state of the nation.
Politics
Comments
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | November 21, 2008 10:11 AM
Ha! Do you think it's going to help your cause to enlist the name of that cold-blooded killer?Posted by: Sabazinus | November 21, 2008 10:16 AM
I discovered this article last night. Made me laugh quite a bit as I don't think I've seen something quite so amusing all week.
Posted by: clinteas | November 21, 2008 10:16 AM
Im not sure where this guy has been hiding for the last 8 years,but his detachment from the reality of american politics is rather amazing......
Posted by: Lago | November 21, 2008 10:20 AM
Why does this pop into mind when I listen to this guy?
"For example, given the premise, "all fish live underwater" and "all mackerel are fish", my wife will conclude, not that "all mackerel live underwater", but that "if she buys kippers it will not rain", or that "trout live in trees", or even that "I do not love her any more." This she calls "using her intuition". I call it "crap", and it gets me very *irritated* because it is not logical."
Posted by: Steve | November 21, 2008 10:21 AM
The tree is pagan, so you and Dawkins are good.
This guy has obviously never been to a school where they teach journalism, logic, or argument. Basically, he's whining that atheists took Christmas away, and that caused the economic meltdown. It'd be laughable if it weren't so damn sad.
Posted by: Holbach | November 21, 2008 10:22 AM
The insane religionists ascribe to atheists a power that their imaginary god is incapable of. Why doesn't their god come down and beat the crap out of us and show who's boss? This is beyond the stage of absurdity and in the realm of abject insanity.
Posted by: Diagoras | November 21, 2008 10:26 AM
Well - they are the slingers of bronze-age myths. It should come as no surprise that informing themselves with such modern implements at the internet or the vast array of printed words, television, paying attention to reality - plays little role in their decision-making process.
So - God hating gay and lesbians = hurricanes; God hating inclusive holiday greetings MUST = economic collapse. How did I miss that?
Posted by: Richard Harris | November 21, 2008 10:26 AM
Reg @ # 1, re. the late Jesse Kilgore: "He was pretty much an atheist, with no belief in the existence of God (in any form) or an afterlife or even in the concept of right or wrong," the relative wrote. "I remember him telling me that he thought that murder wasn't wrong per se, but he would never do it because of the social consequences - that was all there was - just social consequences.
It sounds like this guy was really screwed up. I wonder if it was all the years of religious indoctrination that contributed to that?
Posted by: Bjørn Østman | November 21, 2008 10:27 AM
I am continually amazed at how some conservatives seem able to plainly state things the exact opposite way that they actually are. Hopefully that tactic will be abandoned as useless in the next couple of years.
Posted by: Sastra | November 21, 2008 10:27 AM
American culture has turned faith and the power of positive thinking into magical virtues which can conquer all. "If you have faith, anything is possible." Being really, really certain and making a commitment to never doubt or second guess yourself ("you can't blink" -- Palin) leads to all sorts of excesses. Obviously. To blame the current economic crisis on critical reasoning and epistemic caution is a hoot.
Same with equating atheism with hedonism. They're the ones complaining that atheism is too sad and depressing and insufficiently flattering to be true. Theists are the ones insisting that you need to "listen to your heart" and "follow your instincts" to derive conclusions about what the facts are.
I think atheists and humanists should come up with a new slogan for the busses:
"CHRISTMAS -- It's Not Just For Christians, It's for EVERYBODY! Merry Christmas for all!"
Let them then snarl that this is "ruining Christmas." Who's the Grinch now? Ho, ho, ho.
Posted by: Lago | November 21, 2008 10:28 AM
"Ha! Do you think it's going to help your cause to enlist the name of that cold-blooded killer? "
Oh effin' my!
Now I get it! You're told that this is the only life you may have, so kill yourself and make it even shorter? Why do I doubt that this was the kids only problem in life? Maybe they should see if Ozzy or Judas Priest has a new album out too?
Posted by: Hawk Of May | November 21, 2008 10:28 AM
I stopped my WSJ subscription when they published the editorial by John Yoo (He worked for the Office of Legal 2001-2003 and helped write the torture memos).
Posted by: SC | November 21, 2008 10:34 AM
Could anything be more expressive of market fundamentalism, or a clearer demonstration of how akin it is to existing religions?
Posted by: Dunc | November 21, 2008 10:34 AM
Shorter WSJ: It was nothing to do with us, honest! Look - lemurs!
Posted by: Steverino | November 21, 2008 10:34 AM
"It has been my view that the steady secularizing and insistent effort at dereligioning America has been dangerous."
What about "deZuesing" or "deFlatEarthing"...or "deMoonCheesing"???
So, a continued belief in myths is needed to keep American moral???
Posted by: afterthought | November 21, 2008 10:34 AM
The WSJ editorial page has been stupid for a long time, but I suspect we are starting to see the influence of Rupert.
I think it is best to start getting even the straight business news elsewhere post-Murdoch since the slide into stupid might be frog-boil (legend?) slow, but would be as sure as death and taxes.
Posted by: Ouchimoo | November 21, 2008 10:36 AM
Uh, really? What did you expect to come out from that newspaper? After all, it is owned by the same guy who owns Fox "News".
Posted by: Janine ID AKA The Lone Drinker | November 21, 2008 10:42 AM
I just loved this little bit of left over Civil War resentment. Those Southern evangelicals have such a fine record of supporting human rights.
Posted by: raven | November 21, 2008 10:43 AM
Well the War on Halloween was disappointing as usual.
The War on the War on Xmas is actually going slightly better. But really, only a few retrograde morons are prosecuting it this year. Most people are too busy enjoying the holidays to care or watching the USA go down for the third time on its way to drowning.
It is amazing how the Theothuglicans can wreck the country and then blame it on the fairies, real fairies (gays), elves, or atheists. Their favorite is becoming Obama. Never mind that he won't be president for 2 months, it is somehow all his fault.
The GOP earned its place as irrelevant incompetents by these sort of outright lies and general stupidity.
Posted by: CJ | November 21, 2008 10:44 AM
Well it needed to be said. It's been obvious to me for years - the reason the wall of the US economy is showing cracks is all those damn people refusing to wish everyone a proper Merry Christmas. My Henninger is a beacon of clear thought for this troubled time.
(Anyone else read it and find it hard to see anything but "DAMN THOSE JEWY JEWS!!!!!!!11")
Posted by: Dark Matter | November 21, 2008 10:45 AM
Rupert Murdoch buying the WSJ provided the catalyst I needed for deleting my MySpace page. I suppose I should be grateful, but articles like this make me depressed. Fortunately, I was taught to ignore the bleating of delusional, obsolete twats with no actual vision of reality.
Anyway, if you want economic news The Financial Times is much better. And it's British, so they actually talk about the American economy in realistic terms. It's great.
Posted by: Sastra | November 21, 2008 10:46 AM
"I remember him telling me that he thought that murder wasn't wrong per se, but he would never do it because of the social consequences - that was all there was - just social consequences."
I'm going to guess that there may have been some miscommunication here. The atheist may have been trying to say that murder was wrong because it had social consequences: it harmed other people. The Christian then translated this into thinking murder is wrong because if you get caught, then you have the social consequence that you go to prison. Frankly, I don't see how that second line of thinking is any different than believing murder is only wrong because God will catch you and send you to hell, and you can be sure of that. If you ignore the 'social consequences' to others, all you're doing is holding back psychopaths with more or less effectiveness.
By the way, the article on the reaction to the AHA slogans on the busses was reprinted in my local paper this morning, and there was a part which made me laugh out loud, a quote from an American Family Assoc spokesperson.
Why oh my, yes. That's why all the Christians agree on what the Bible really means and says. And it's why ALL the religions agree on what God means and says, too. I mean, it's certainly not like we are each "choosing for ourselves" what religion is true. Oh no. If you want to find consensus and happy harmony among people, bring up religion. And if you don't want a crazy world, be sure people believe that the supernatural is real and true, and demons and angels walk among us doing magic.
Nitwits. How can they miss all this?
Posted by: llewelly | November 21, 2008 10:51 AM
We should all be proud. We, atheists, have the power to destroy both Christmas and Capitalism.
I'm headed down to the bar. I'm going to tell they must give me free drinks or Atheists Will Destroy Easter.
Posted by: NoAstronomer | November 21, 2008 10:53 AM
Pretty much every thing the scaremongers said about Newscorp taking over the WSJ has come to pass.
Posted by: Dianne | November 21, 2008 10:58 AM
frog-boil (legend?) slow
Legend. A frog in gradually heating water will attempt to hop out when it gets too hot.
Posted by: Jakob | November 21, 2008 11:01 AM
Such a sublime load of bull! I wonder if that insipid little fool in any way can point to something that'd support his view, and also how he'd then explain away the fact that among the ten least corrupt nations in the world you find the Nordic countries, New Zealand, the Netherlands and other oh-so-godfearing places.
Posted by: Moses | November 21, 2008 11:02 AM
For the record, Utah has one of the highest bankruptcy rates in the US and routinely has more bankruptcies per-capita than any other state. It's also one of the reddest states in the US. It's also, if include Mormonism, one of the most "Christian" states in the US.
And that's in good times or bad.
Posted by: TSC | November 21, 2008 11:02 AM
CC debt is the reason for the season. Nothing reminds you of disenfranchisement quite like xmas shopping. Jesus wouldn't have it any other way...
Posted by: druidbros | November 21, 2008 11:06 AM
Its covered in the POSTgraduate classes.
Posted by: Mike O'Risal | November 21, 2008 11:06 AM
Hmmmm... blaming a minority for the economic and political collapse of a country. Berlin, 1933, anybody?
That this comes out at just about the same time as the report concluding that the US has peaked in terms of global hegemony and has begun a decades-long decline in which its singular role as a superpower is being replaced by a multipolar situation with India, China, Russia and Brazil achieving ascendancy... that should give us pause. There are going to be a number of religious nuts, like Henninger, looking for infidels to sacrifice to their angry Father Christmas.
Posted by: Steverino | November 21, 2008 11:10 AM
Ok...I'm signing up people for the War on Good Friday. It's a low-overhead thing...but there will be plenty of coffee and doughnuts.
Posted by: negentropyeater | November 21, 2008 11:11 AM
It's most probably the other way round : America's abnormal religiosity for a developped nation has a lot to do with this mega-crisis.
Whaaat ? Americans believed in miracles ? They believed that false prosperity could be built on easy credit and economic freedom ? They believed that one could go to war and avoid the necessary sacrifices, and yet enjoy the largest boom in real estate ? They believed one could legalize and completely deregulate gambling on stocks, bonds and all kinds of financial instruments (what are CDSs if not that) without any risk ? They believed buying large pickup cars and other gas guzling SUVs could continue forever and the big 3 American manufacturers would never have to adapt ?
The net result of this fantastic 25 year shopping spree is that the debt to GDP ratio (private and public) has more than doubled at an unbearable level of more than 350% of GDP (the only time this level was reached was in 1929!), and on another hand, the household savings rate has decreased from its long term stable 9% level to now -2 %.
The U.S. is the country in the developed world with the lowest savings rate. Canada and Japan are trying to keep pace. Germany and France have social programs which allow for a comfortable savings rate of 10 to 12%. The US may come in last in savings, but no other country in the world can spend like them.
Well, I'm afraid it's now time to stop believing in miracles, no prayers will help, it's a hard dose of rationalism that's needed, not until American households get back to a personal savings rate to pre-bubble times of 9% will they have an econmy that starts functioning properly again.
Posted by: raven | November 21, 2008 11:11 AM
The GOP is disliked by most Americans. Henninger is part of their problem, not the solution. As the book they supposedly revere says, "As you sow, so shall you reap." They are still stuck in a hole, digging it deeper.
Posted by: Cardinal_Shrew | November 21, 2008 11:13 AM
Just out of curiosity, does anyone here have a problem with christmas or anyone wishing them a merry christmas? I don't. Well, there is all the stress and money and all those reasons it is a pain but I certainly don't mind giving or receiving gifts or the decorations. Where is this war on Christmas they speak of. I would think we would be involved if there was one.
Posted by: Jeff Eyges | November 21, 2008 11:15 AM
The most frightening thing about that article is the bevy of comments beneath it commending him on a job well done.
Posted by: Tim | November 21, 2008 11:16 AM
The Rethuglicans certainly don't act like they expect a judgement day, at best, they'll cruelly toy with the fundies and they won't respect them in the morning, or even use lubricant.
Posted by: Larry | November 21, 2008 11:16 AM
Read the WSJ for the financial information. Read the WSJ editorials for their hilarity. I think the finance page editors and writers are from planet Earth. The editorial page writers and editors are from planet Okoboingo located on the fifth planet from Tau Ceti.
Its the only explanation.
Posted by: Alex | November 21, 2008 11:21 AM
It becomes more apparent to me that perhaps religionists fear the ability of atheists to live comfortable, happy, productive lives without needing to rely on a deity. Furthermore, there frustration mounts when competing with non-theist ideas. Ideas such as Evolution, geology, science in general, acceptance that homosexuality is natural, etc.. When discussion focuses on any of such topics, they are unable (typically) to compete because the atheist will rely on empirical data, evidence, logic and reason. All the religionists have is bluster and rhetoric. I can imagine how frustrating it must be to defend ancient myths and supernatural beings that never show up when they're needed the most.
Posted by: Michelle | November 21, 2008 11:21 AM
And here I thought that a secular holiday based on buying stuff would actually help the economy.
I guess that good christians spend more than bad evil atheists who accumulate wealth or something? Cuz Jesus said poor's cool? I have a hard time following that douche's logic really.
Posted by: woody | November 21, 2008 11:23 AM
Every year for the last 10 or so, I have donned my store-bought Santa suit and made myself available to spread "Christmas Cheer" (for a very reasonable price: $75/appearance). I'm a "true-beard," who cultivates a long, white NATURAL beard year-round...
In the course of playing this role (which is quite fun, for a variety of reasons, not least of which is beguiling pretty women to sit on my lap), I have found it necessary to utter the "Merry Christmas" line repeatedly.
I don't mind. It's part of the part I play. Pay's pretty good, too..."Hohoho, Merrrrrry CHRISTMAS, one and all."
Out of Santa mufti, I bestow on folks my favorite holiday greeting: "JOLLY HOLIDAYS!!!"
Posted by: Tim H | November 21, 2008 11:25 AM
The Great Atheist Conspiracy will be victorious. Henninger and his ilk (once again those pesky ilk rear their ilky heads) have fallen for our deception operation. While the faithheads continue to obsess over the stale War on Christmas, our plans are near fruition. They will be caught utterly unprepared for our surprise attack. The REAL blow will fall on Feb. 12, 2009, when, in commemoration of the 200th anniversery of Charles Darwin's birth, we launch The War On Lincoln's Birthday! Those superstitious twits don't stand a chance.
Posted by: woody | November 21, 2008 11:26 AM
It becomes more apparent to me that perhaps religionists fear the ability of atheists to live comfortable, happy, productive lives without needing to rely on a deity.
what they are is terrified that they'll awaken one morning to the truth that they've wasted so much time, effort, energy, and money on something that is less tangible than a fart in a hurricane...
Posted by: Glen Davidson | November 21, 2008 11:27 AM
It's all context, so it's indeed possible that a decline in religion could be associated with societal decline--and vice versa.
Perhaps, though, Henninger should pay attention simply to what virtue is, which is generally understood as not being the denial of reality and lying through your teeth. The fact that a large portion of religionists in this country do both is far from virtuous or helpful in making people face up to the facts.
This country needs virtue, and ignoring the lack of important virtues in too many religious Americans is not the way to get it.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/2kxyc7
Posted by: SharonH | November 21, 2008 11:28 AM
At least he admits that religion doesn't have to be true. It's just really useful for getting people to do what you want them to.
As for Christmas, I find it really annoying but I mostly just ignore it. It's annoying in a secular way, not a religious one.
Posted by: Michael | November 21, 2008 11:28 AM
I blame Daniel Henninger for causing the current financial crisis. If he hadn't created that straw man, none of us would be in this situation.
Thanks a lot, Henninger's straw man! I hope you get knocked over!!!!
Posted by: The skepTick | November 21, 2008 11:28 AM
Henninger should consider that one of the reasons for our current economic woes might in fact be that we've lived with an administration who, for the past eight years, has been celebrating Christmas every day! They've pretty much gotten everything they've wanted, even with two years of democrats running the House.
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | November 21, 2008 11:29 AM
I'd love to reply to that editorial with the following, simply put:
Dear Mr. Henninger,
Merry Christmas, you ignorant, foolish, credulous, self-righteous, blathering turd of an excuse for a human being. Merry Christmas, Merry Christmas, Merry bloody fucking Christmas.
See? I can say Marry Christmas and you'd still be an asshole and I'd still be right."
Posted by: Diagoras | November 21, 2008 11:31 AM
@druidbros
Well. Darn.
I got a JD instead of a degree in Espousing-casual-contempt-for-everyone-else-in-the-universe-except-the-people-who-believe-exactly-the-same-nonsense-I-do.
Posted by: Prof MTH | November 21, 2008 11:31 AM
AC/DC has a new album out.
Really, why do newspapers, not just the WSJ print such crappy Op-Eds! Do they not understand the concept of quality control?
But hey, they are a gold-mine of logical fallacies that help me in teaching informal fallacies.
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | November 21, 2008 11:32 AM
And now to add to Poe's law and Godwin's law we can add "Henninger's law".
Henninger's law: All the ills and evils in society boil down to the fact that Atheists are trying to kill Christmas.
Bask in the glory, Mr. Henninger, for your stupidity is now forever immortalized on the inter-webs.
Posted by: Jello | November 21, 2008 11:32 AM
@1
I feel sympathy for that poor kid. As someone who also had to go through the painful process of realizing that the supposed truth you were taught as a child were in fact impossible to be true and I was raised in a fairly mainstream manner compared with this kid. This is an example of what dogmatic instruction does to the human mind. It leaves you utterly incapable of dealing with inner conflict in a rational and measured manner. When you spend your entire life operating under the premise of the two option approach and discover that the option you consider the right option is not possibly correct then the wrong option becomes the inevitable choice. Once he discovered that God did not exist he made the only decision his upbringing allowed him to make, that life is meaningless. Sadly, modern psychology has more then enough documentation of what happens to a person when they no longer believes their life has any purpose.
Posted by: Steverino | November 21, 2008 11:36 AM
"Yeah, well...was it over when the Germans bombed Pearl Habor???"
Posted by: afterthought | November 21, 2008 11:40 AM
I like this:
I also like someone else's suggestion to read "The Financial Times".
Posted by: pikeamus | November 21, 2008 11:41 AM
Did anybody read the article linked at the bottom of the suicide story? http://www.wnd.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=43734
Its long but if you want to read some completely retarded apologetics (and anti-atheist scare mongering) it's almost guaranteed to put you in a bad mood.
Posted by: Thoracantha | November 21, 2008 11:44 AM
So unregulated securities trading, a housing bubble, and rampant deficient spending on all levels of the economy, all of which were promoted by the Christian Republican and the very Christian Bush Whitehouse had nothing to do with the current meltdown. But if I say, "Happy Holidays" instead of "Merry Chirstmas" I send the entire economy down the crapper.
I never realized I had that much power. If I state that the Easter bunny and not the cross is the official symbol of
Easter, does the moon blow up or something?
Posted by: Nick Gotts | November 21, 2008 11:46 AM
Well I do hate Christmas! The ghastly kitsch and tat in the shops, in the streets and on houses, the puerile carols and Christmas pop songs blasted at you from every direction, the religidiots on every bloody TV channel telling us not to forget its "real meaning", the sentimental garbage re-shown on said TV channels for the umpteenth time, the consumerist orgy! BAH! HUMBUG!!!
Posted by: Christie | November 21, 2008 11:48 AM
I don't know a single person who is an atheist and doesn't wish everyone they know a merry christmas. Where do they get this stuff? If anything it's other religions against those words - you know, the other ones with holidays at that time of year.
Although, I kinda like the super-villain stature. Did you know we're all-powerful? Wait... isn't that supposed to be someone else's job?
Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | November 21, 2008 11:50 AM
Financial instability
On this year's global scale
Can't possibly be understood
In every last detail
By educated modern types
From Harvard Business School
With economic data points
And science as their tool.
The modern world's a scary place
With bankruptcies and such;
The thoughtful man suggests it needs
A bronze-age mystic's touch.
The Wall Street Journal's Henninger
Just makes me want to laugh:
Let's fix the economic mess--
Just sacrifice a calf!
The atheist--a bogeyman
And whipping-boy du jour,
The one who dares to say that work,
Not prayer, must be the cure--
The atheist must take the blame
So take them by the throat,
Lay all our sins upon their heads
Then sacrifice that goat!
Slightly more rant at:
http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2008/11/atheist-as-scapegoat.html
Posted by: Geoff | November 21, 2008 11:51 AM
We're ripping this story up over at the Raytractors too.
http://raytractors.blogspot.com/2008/11/wsj-editorial-war-on-christmas-caused.html
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | November 21, 2008 11:51 AM
Goodness I hope not... that would kill all those poor Quakers...
Posted by: Becky WS | November 21, 2008 11:52 AM
#1 #22 and #51: Jesse Kilgore
I find it especially telling and tragic that he felt it necessary to hide the book under his mattress, and his father quotes a friend's email after his death:
"He had not talked ... about it because he was afraid of how you might react. ... and that he knew most of your defenses of Christianity because he himself used them often"
Sound more like this young person was deeply afraid of the effect on their family that giving up their faith would cause. I don't think it can be blamed on Dawkins or the book, but rather on the intolerance of religious people towards those who choose to leave the faith. Dawkin's book is very positive about life not negative.
Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | November 21, 2008 11:55 AM
@ Nick Gotts
A-HA!!! So this is all your fault then... I might have known...
Posted by: amphiox | November 21, 2008 11:57 AM
#52: With regards to our hypothetical alternate universe where the Germans bomb Pearl Harbor, said bombing, (occurring after the invasion and conquest of the continental US, the retreat of the US government to Hawaii, the Nazi capture of San Francisco, and subsequent launching of the Kreigsmarine Pacific Carrier Fleet) would indeed, very likely, have been the end of the war.
Posted by: aaron | November 21, 2008 11:58 AM
This is awesome!
Atheists are the new Jews!!
Think about it! We already comprise of almost all the top scientists, now this guy seems to think we're going to own all the money.
Pretty soon we're gonna own Hollywood as well!!
(Passion of the Dawkins anyone?)
Posted by: Paul Burnett | November 21, 2008 11:58 AM
Only slightly off topic: Keeping in mind that all children are born innocent atheists, some poor schmuck has decided that the atheists are responsible for his son's suicide, after the kid read 'The God Delusion.' Poor kid - realized his dad had lied to him, his church had lied to him, his belief system was a lie - but certainly it's not their fault - must be the atheists. See http://worldnetdaily.com/index.php?fa=PAGE.view&pageId=81459 (And then the cowardly website doesn't allow comments to their hate-filled lies.)
Posted by: Becky WS | November 21, 2008 11:59 AM
#54 Pikeamus,
I only managed to get down to the bit where he says:
"Somehow, atheism - just like homosexuality, which used to be considered shameful and something to hide - is now becoming hip, sophisticated, even a badge of honor"
Posted by: Dunc | November 21, 2008 12:03 PM
No, they just understand the real purpose of op-eds: to promote views that make the owners and shareholders happy. Op-ed writers are the court astrologers of our era.
Posted by: Loren Petrich | November 21, 2008 12:04 PM
That editorial is absolute bullshit. He presents no evidence that fundie religion is successful as a "nurturer of useful virtue"; the Bible Belt is not exactly luxuriously rich and financially solvent.
And he whines that one is not allowed to say "Merry Christmas" -- what a big baby, calling himself a victim. Which right-wingers never tire of whining about, people calling themselves victims.
He whines about a Mad Max society, but that is what will result if many right-wingers get what they seem to want. They never tire of whining about government, which makes them seem like anarchists. And anarchy tends to produce a Mad Max society.
As to a secular name for Christmas, I suggest the old Germanic name: Yule. Evergreen trees are a symbol of this season because they keep their leaves and don't appear to die during the winter. So let's celebrate the Yule season and our Yule trees.
Posted by: Alex | November 21, 2008 12:05 PM
Bravo Cuttlefish.
Posted by: RamblinDude | November 21, 2008 12:06 PM
The state of the economy, of course, has nothing to do with it. In good times and bad, all that is relevant is that we bow and scrape before Jesus. (Gotta keep the working class in line--always. Right, Murdoch?)
Posted by: Evolving Squid | November 21, 2008 12:07 PM
>>Why doesn't their god come down and beat the crap out
>>of us and show who's boss?
Because He works in mysterious ways. That's part of the mystery. Remember, God created atheists... because, after all, God needs to fill up Hell. It's easier to create atheists and use them as cosmic land fill than it is to just make Hell go away. Omnipotence is funny that way.
Posted by: Alex | November 21, 2008 12:09 PM
"No, they just understand the real purpose of op-eds: to promote views that make the owners and shareholders happy."
So you mean pandering. Funny how the simplest answers can be the most persuasive.
Posted by: Alex | November 21, 2008 12:12 PM
"They never tire of whining about government...
Only because our government is not their theocracy.
Posted by: Drew | November 21, 2008 12:19 PM
@ Celtic_Evolution
YES!!! I'm all for that. Someone needs to get started on the wiki page immediately.
Posted by: Xavier | November 21, 2008 12:19 PM
I am beginning to see why it is that there is a concatenation between the religious and the right.
Free-market capitalism works because it is the lowest common denominator, the Steady State. Everything has a price and everyone works to maximise their personal self interest so any new philosophy (such as Marxism), whilst potentially a greater good in the long term, has an immediate cost that makes it unable to get a foothold. Everything has a price, including human life, so slavery, prostitution, assassination for hire and numerous other abominations are all sanctioned.
Obviously we never let the society get that far, but put in place social rules of behaviour through education and direct state intervention from the police. Now, the religionists claim to believe that these rules are somehow sacrosanct and policed by a higher power. Thus they are able to push the idea of the free-market, the police state and the expansionist/warrior agenga in the sure knowledge that (their little subset of) people will be saved from the ultimate abominations.
The more liberal-minded people are actually trying to keep these rules themselves in order to 'do gods work' (and be a little more inclusive about who gets to be saved) whilst the atheists see that we have a personal responsibility; some sort of rules MUST be enforced by ourselves on us all.
It is the belief in an absolutist, external imposition of fixed morals that allows the religious to trend towards the "Every man for himself" political stance in the expectation that it will never be allowed to go to far. Since there is no sky fairy stopping the slide, horrors like the Prosperity Gospel, killings in the "Pro-Life" name, the socially ingrained brutalisation of young minds (and bodies) within church schools and the endemic fraud amongst the televangelists and megachurches are rife.
There is, in fact a force that stops these hucksters from going too far: the more extreme their mendacity, the more people begin to side with rule-demanding, excess-curtailing liberals (who are also following their path out of self-interest, a self-interest that says we must stop ourselves from committing these atrocities and ruining our own lives, because no-one else will.)
Unfortunately, to get a majority on the side of self-limitation only happens when the religionists have pushed things far towards the side of depravity, because
most of that majority still believe that the sky fairy is still there and wouldn't let things go seriously wrong. They can't really believe that the disgustingly wealthy, depraved bigots and liars who are at the forefront of the rush towards barbarism, could do so by invoking the name of the sky fairy without being punished from on high.
On a happier note, another of the many-fold benefits of the world-wide economic collapse (along with the gelding of the USA expansionist hegemony and the environmental boon of removing most of the disposable income form mindless middle-class consumers) is that people's minds will be focussed more on the material and will be less willing to believe in the ultimate Good which so clearly does not exist. The return of the more socially-minded elements of US politics to power should allow the slide into turpitude to be reversed quite some way before the religionists switch back to thinking that their god has fixed everything afterall and they can go back to business as usual.
Posted by: woody | November 21, 2008 12:20 PM
@ #1: I a m sure the kid's suicide had nothing whatever to do with the fact that he'd just spent a couple of fun-filled months slaughtering innocents and blowing up kids and dogs in Iraq for no ascertainable purpose...
Posted by: Sastra | November 21, 2008 12:21 PM
Cardinal Shrew #34 wrote:
I don't either, but apparently atheists could be divided into roughly 3 groups:
1.) Christmas is a religious holiday which is really about celebrating the birth of Jesus. Therefore, they will not celebrate it themselves, and they resent the implication in the universal "Merry Christmas "that everyone does. They either celebrate Solstice, Human Light, Festivus, or nothing.
2.) Christmas is a mish-mash of pagan, Christian, and other traditions, the true meaning of which lies in the universal humanist values of love, fellowship, peace, and charity. So there's no conflict with an atheist celebrating Christmas as a secular holiday. Jesus is not the Reason for the Season. Merry Christmas!
3.) Christmas sucks for reasons which have nothing to do with whether it's religion-based or not. No 'happy holidays' either.
The group which is (most) uniform in disliking "Merry Christmas" are non-Christian religions. To them, the fact that part of the holiday is associated with another religion and "Christ" is part of the word 'Christmas' is very, very important. They celebrate other holidays, and find it anywhere from maybe just a tad disconcerting to downright insulting to be greeted with another religion's terms.
Actually, saying "happy holidays" in recognition of all religions is far less subversive to the RR agenda than secularizing Christmas. It keeps the Christ in Christmas. Turning it into the equivalent of "happy holidays' takes the Christ out of it.
Posted by: Moggie | November 21, 2008 12:22 PM
#57:
Of course. "Happy holidays" is a commercial greeting, primarily by retailers, who believe that being inclusive (and reminding people to spend for New Year, not just Christmas) is better for their bottom line. So, apparently the economy is being destroyed by... capitalism. Well, we knew that.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | November 21, 2008 12:25 PM
Celtic_Evolution@62,
Mea culpa! Mea maxima culpa!
BTW, anyone remember "Blackadder back and forth"? Victorian Ebenezer Blackadder goes from being a paragon of Christmas cheer and generosity (i.e. a sucker - exploited by all), to being as selfish and nasty as all his ancestors, after being shown two possible futures. In one, following from him being nice in the present, his descendant ends up a slave to Baldrick; if he's nasty in the present, however, said descendant becomes ruler of the universe. A touching moral tale!
Posted by: Jeeves | November 21, 2008 12:25 PM
Yeah, I wish I could write that Kathleen Parker is the bee's knees. But a quick perusal of her Townhall.com page shows she is really just another neoconservative with a modicum of heart and brains.
Posted by: genesgalore | November 21, 2008 12:29 PM
Mary, Kiss my ass.
Posted by: JHS | November 21, 2008 12:30 PM
Right on, Daniel. Based on that logic, I'm sure he'd agree that global warming is clearly a result of the decline in international piracy as well.
Gasp! That would make him...a closet Pastafarian!
What's supremely ironic to me is that these right-wing nutballs like him, O'Reilly, et al, are the ones "militating," inventing this "war on christmas" and thereby inserting all this hateful rhetoric into an otherwise peace-and-luv kinda holiday, whether you celebrate christmas, hannukah, solstice, or just the coming new year. I can only imagine that when they say "Merry Christmas" or whatever, it's with a scowl, spittle-flying. And they alone - not any atheist I know - have created that.
This all gets back to the idea that because someone, anyone, simply *exists* who doesn't believe the exact same thing you do, doesn't speak the same way you do, doesn't sleep with gender you do, etc etc, it's somehow a "militant attack" on you. It's insecurity, inadequacy, whatever you want to call it. Someone out there doesn't celebrate Christmas? Threat detected! Someone out there doesn't celebrate anything? Epic threat detected!
Posted by: IST | November 21, 2008 12:30 PM
@Pikeamus #54
I just took the time to read that steaming pile of horseshit... well phrased.