…and this is a 
Turnabout
Category: Humor
Posted on: November 20, 2008 10:52 PM, by PZ Myers
The Mormons have this arrogant practice of posthumous baptism — one of the motivations for their huge genealogical libraries is to help them go through the old records, find the names of dead people, and 'convert' them to Mormonism. It's silly and pointless, but it can also be insensitive and offensive, such as when they start baptizing Jews killed in the Holocaust.
So here's brilliant reversal: convert dead Mormons to…homosexuality. I love the idea. It really doesn't matter what their sexual orientation in life was, it doesn't even matter if they were raging homophobes…death changes a lot of things, so let's simply declare them to have found joy in same sex relationships in the afterlife.
I hope there is an official roster being maintained somewhere. I'm pretending that Brigham Young is a squealing poofter right now, having a wild party with Joseph Smith, dressed in a dusting of sequins and nothing else. That's an image the elders of LDS need to keep in mind when they're playing their sanctimonious games with the memory of other people's revered dead.
Comments
Posted by: Kobra | November 20, 2008 10:57 PM
I hereby posthumously convert Joseph Stalin to Catholicism.
Posted by: abb3w | November 20, 2008 11:01 PM
As I understand it, the Mormon practice involves baptism by proxy. Finding a few gay and lesbian religious/political activists to perform something equivalent... is left as an exercise for someone less straight than I am.
Posted by: khops | November 20, 2008 11:06 PM
@Kobra
And I hearby declare Hitler to be a Christian. Oh wait...
Posted by: Holbach | November 20, 2008 11:08 PM
Yes, death changes a lot of things but it has no effect on the lessening of religion,as there are so much more of the living dead to perpetuate that insanity
Posted by: You are hopeless | November 20, 2008 11:09 PM
Then Abraham said to him, 'If your brothers do not listen to Moses and the Prophets, they will not be persuaded, even if someone were to rise from the dead.'"
Posted by: CalGeorge | November 20, 2008 11:12 PM
Orson Scott Card isn't dead yet. Dammit! Hurry up and die.
Wikipeida:
Card was attending Mormon worship service in California on June 29 2008 when a letter from President Thomas S. Monson of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints was read out, asking all active members to "do all you can" to support the California Proposition 8 (2008) by "donating of your means and time...to preserve the sacred institution of marriage." In response to that letter, Card began a series of articles as part of his regular column in the Mormon Times "to address, one by one, my compelling secular arguments in favor of giving permanent heterosexual pairings a monopoly on legally recognized status in all societies".
Posted by: mayhempix | November 20, 2008 11:20 PM
Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon are hereby granted full status as Mormons.
Now that that's done...
Ronald Reagan and Richard Nixon are hereby granted full status as homosexuals.
Billy Graham will be so proud.
Posted by: Pyroclasm | November 20, 2008 11:21 PM
Goddamit PZ. Now I can't get that image out of my head.
Thanks a lot.
Posted by: Your Mighty Overload | November 20, 2008 11:24 PM
Ahh, come one guys - Stalin, Reagan, Nixon, you're all thinking too SMALL!
I hereby convert Jesus Christ to ATHEISM, with all the rights and privileges thereby afforded.
Better.
Posted by: Sastra | November 20, 2008 11:26 PM
It's not enough to "convert" them to homosexuality. They must be permanently sealed in marriage, too. Gay marriages. This will cause no end of trouble in their afterlife.
And what can they say? "You're making all this up?" Oh, really. If they point a finger at people inventing stories, where do the rest of them point?
Posted by: Tom Woolf | November 20, 2008 11:27 PM
BRILLIANT!!!! Perverse, diabolical, and BRILLIANT!!!
Posted by: BillCinSD | November 20, 2008 11:28 PM
The LDS Church used to get so many requests each year for Hitler's baptism that they requested their members stop it so that the Jewish people would dislike them less. I know people that have put clauses in their will that they not be baptised into the LDS church after death
Posted by: shonny | November 20, 2008 11:33 PM
Raise you one on that, - Jehova, God, and Allah have herewith shed their shackles, and are henceforth confirmed atheists.
Posted by: JHS | November 20, 2008 11:34 PM
Love. It.
Posted by: kamaka | November 20, 2008 11:37 PM
This whole concept is giving me the spins...tell me I am asleep having one of those bizarre "this seems real" dreams...
Oh, wait, the Mormons thinking they're qualified to legislate marriage definitions...
I must.. wake... up... and go pee
Posted by: Kristinmh | November 20, 2008 11:37 PM
Hey, where are all the Mormon trolls?
Don't be shy! I just took some Nyquil and I don't have long to fight before I fall asleep.
Posted by: andrea | November 20, 2008 11:40 PM
OMG, you really need to put coffee-spew warnings at the beginnings of some of your posts!
Posted by: Nomad | November 20, 2008 11:41 PM
By a strange coincidence I was talking about this very thing a little earlier tonight. I favor the idea of baptising their living members into other religions, by proxy. Hell, surely it's more fair to meddle among the affairs of the living than the dead, it's just cowardly to claim those that aren't around to fight back.
Declaring their dead to be homosexual is good too. And by yet another strange coincidence, I'm about to head off to somewhere where I will most likely be among many of the more festive sexuality (if anyone finds that offensive, I apologize, I'm just trying to inject a little levity into this, I'm sure there are many dreary homosexuals as well, it was just a play on the word gay, really).
If I gave them enough alcohol, I'll bet I could get some to.. er.. "baptise" themselves in the names of others.
I don't have the time to make the joke that's just waiting to be made about how they would anoint one another, I have to go pack now.
Posted by: Kel | November 20, 2008 11:41 PM
We could posthumously make Jesus gay, but honestly how many 33 year old charismatic Jewish virgins were there 2000 years ago? The messiah obviously loved the mangina.
Posted by: Kristinmh | November 20, 2008 11:51 PM
There has to be a ceremony, or else it's no good. I say hold it at your favourite gay bar with drag queens to stand in for the deceased. Preferably all dressed as Cher.
Posted by: Alex | November 20, 2008 11:59 PM
As a gay ex-mormon who participated in baptisms for the dead when I was churchy, I find this especially amusing.
Posted by: Dyan | November 21, 2008 12:09 AM
Better pray for your sin
Better pray for your sin
Cos the Gay Messiah's coming!
Posted by: JakeS | November 21, 2008 12:12 AM
Anything keeping the mormons from baptising people BEFORE they die? If not, we could all be mormons right now and NOT EVEN KNOW IT!
Posted by: DLC | November 21, 2008 12:15 AM
Clearly Brigham Young was a gay liberal atheist.
Posted by: chezjake | November 21, 2008 12:20 AM
Hey! Can we get all the deceased members of the Westboro Baptist Church in on this too?
Posted by: Jimminy Christmas | November 21, 2008 12:21 AM
I find it most sickening when Mormons (or any Christian for that matter) says they will "pray for me". They most often do this immediately after they have lost an argument or feel they're about to get pwned by logic, and it's almost as predictable as the sunrise. They might as well be saying "I'll think about you while I jack off tonight." It's insensitive, offensive, and definitely disgusting.Posted by: Jer | November 21, 2008 12:22 AM
But PZ, you just don't understand. Mormonism is Christ's one *TRUE* church on the face of the earth and all these dead people are just clamoring to be part of the club in the eternal waiting room. It's the mormon's duty to make sure they all have a chance to marry a bunch of wives and rule their own worlds a-la Populous.
Posted by: Kobra | November 21, 2008 12:27 AM
@25: Nothing is sacred.
In related news, Jehovah is now a masochist.
Posted by: Kobra | November 21, 2008 12:30 AM
@26:
Well now that you've said that...
Posted by: eTourist | November 21, 2008 12:32 AM
I don't think we really need a ceremony to convert dead Mormons to homosexuality. A simple notice in Out Magazine should suffice. It could be a regular feature.
Posted by: Notagod | November 21, 2008 12:34 AM
Mormon leader Gordon B. Hinckley died Sunday night at age 97, the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints announced. [January 27, 2008.]
Being a fully qualified atheist, I declare in all honesty:
As he was when born and so he is in death, Gordon B. Hinckley shall forever more be and shall always be an atheist.
Being unqualified to bring to Gordon B Hinckley the special blessing of gay pride, I can only attest to the gayness of his picture here:
http://www.cnn.com/2008/US/01/27/obit.hinckley/index.html
However, as a special gift to President Thomas S. Monson (current mor(m)on (the worship of moroni, moronist would seem appropriate also) prophet), I declare Him to be an atheist, although, lacking good standing at the present time. None the less, President Thomas S. Monson is an atheist as he has no god with him. [Presented here to Thomas S. Monson - pre-posthumously]
Posted by: Jimminy Christmas | November 21, 2008 12:35 AM
Posted by: George Atkinson | November 21, 2008 12:43 AM
#26 They might as well be saying "I'll think about you while I jack off tonight."
Ah, the traditional one-handed prayer. When done in public, prayer, like masturbation, is only for show.
Posted by: PixelFish | November 21, 2008 12:45 AM
I actually have participated in the baptism-by-proxy. It's one of the few things faithful teenage Mormons CAN do in the temple--as you don't go through the full rites of initiation until you are ready to go on a mission (19 for the guys, 21 for the women) or get married.
Here's what happens. You basically get dressed in a white (and very ugly) polyester jumper and when your turn comes, you wade out into the baptismal font, where a missionary (usually) or a member with elder status (anybody who has been a missionary) dunks you about twenty times for and on behalf of So-and-so-who-is-dead. Generally they can rip through the entire contents of a small European village in a few minutes, and you barely have time to breathe between dunkings. Then you go into the next room over, where two guys then confirm you on behalf of all the people you got dunked for.
Of interest: You are only dunked for people of the same gender, as far as I remember. I remember getting dunked for a lot of Mary Elizabeths but no Johns or Toms or Geralds.
Now it seems deeply weird, but then...I never questioned that this was anything but necessary for their redemption in the afterlife.(The Mormons also believe that the baptisms are in parallel to the dead being taught in the spirit world, and that the dead person still has the agency to accept the baptism and teachings.) Apparently God takes his paperwork very seriously--although not so seriously that you can't have your descendants come in and do it for you. If only the Washington DMV worked this way. "Honestly, officer, I was waiting to die so my grandkids could get my license for me."
Posted by: Kyt Dotson | November 21, 2008 12:52 AM
I don't know whether to laugh or cry at that one. I always found the whole posthumous baptism rather disgustingly disrespectful. Of course, the people are dead, but one would expect that their memories deserve something...
The genealogy thing has always intrigued me, but literally inheriting people's reputations after they've died seems extremely cheap.
Turnabout is fair play.
Posted by: Kalirren | November 21, 2008 1:03 AM
#26: You know, I have a suspicion that the "I'll pray for you" schtick might actually be one of the oldest evangelical customs in Christianity. I don't believe it's recorded anywhere in Scripture, but it's certainly extremely old, because no Christian I've talked to (most of whom actually do read the damned book) seems to know where it comes from.
"I'll pray for you" makes a lot more sense when the religious climate is filled with strongly-culturally-affiliated tribal deities and you're trying to push a form of monotheism which you've bastardized out of somewhere else. We atheists think it's a stupid thing to say, but your average polytheist of circa 100 AD would have interpreted that as a very generous gesture. For someone to say, "I'll pray to my god for your well-being" is equivalent to making your concerns into their own.
I suppose this betrays one of their thoughts, that atheism is just another religion, and can be combatted using the same tactics.
Posted by: AH | November 21, 2008 1:13 AM
I'd think of the Mormons while masturbating but honestly: it kills the mood.
Posted by: Jim 1138 | November 21, 2008 1:16 AM
Why not convert LIVE Mormons to homosexuality?
Posted by: Michael Hawkins | November 21, 2008 1:18 AM
It seems as though if this is the Mormons are being "silly and pointless" while also being "insensitive and offensive", that doing the exact same thing to them would likely have to fall into at least one set of those same descriptions.
Posted by: Kobra | November 21, 2008 1:20 AM
@38: With all their wives, chances are that one will be a trap. :P
Posted by: Rick R | November 21, 2008 1:39 AM
Look, it's simple- all you have to do is posthumously molest their inner child. After all, everybody knows child molestation "causes" homosexuality.
Or don't you believe Ted Haggard?
Posted by: Your Mighty Overload | November 21, 2008 1:41 AM
Shonny at 13
I thought about doing those guys too, but I decided against it. I mean, there is, at least, a reasonable chance that some Jesus character actually existed. Not the son of any deity, of course, but I have little problem with his existence. The others are simply fictional, and I don't think you can convert fictional characters. On the other hand, a gay, atheist Batman..... possibilities....
Kel at 19
I suspect you are right, after all, why else would he hang out with 12 guys wearing dresses?
Posted by: Your Mighty Overload | November 21, 2008 1:44 AM
Hey, I just had a thought....
You know Christians are always saying that Darwin converted to Christianity on his deathbed? Well, they may be right - they just didn't mention he had to die first before they did it.....
Swine!
Posted by: llewelly | November 21, 2008 1:47 AM
Many holocaust victims received 'baptisms for the dead' while still alive. They don't actually make sure someone is dead before performing the proxy baptism. After all - it is the still small voice (the Holy Ghost) who tells Mormons who requires a 'baptism for the dead'. Would the Holy Ghost be wrong?Posted by: Autumn | November 21, 2008 1:50 AM
So what do you sprinkle on someone's head to baptize them as gay?
Does the absence of anything being sprinkled on someone's head make them a default atheist?
Posted by: Capital Dan | November 21, 2008 1:54 AM
Dude! What do you think the "Agenda" is all about?
Mormons will be the first to fall. They're weak.
Posted by: Rick R | November 21, 2008 2:01 AM
"Dude! What do you think the "Agenda" is all about?
Mormons will be the first to fall. They're weak."
Seriously. A pina colada, 2 episodes of "Sex and the City", and Cher's Farewell Tour DVD.
And they're like putty in your hands.
Posted by: Craig | November 21, 2008 2:10 AM
Orson Scott Card has a new "Ender" book coming out.
Do not buy it.
Posted by: Josh L | November 21, 2008 2:20 AM
Brigham Young was ALWAYS such a butch leather boy.
I'm glad you freed him from the the multiple wives he never wanted and the lifestyle he found so repulsive.
Posted by: Sanity Jane | November 21, 2008 2:21 AM
I like this talk of conversions and gay marriages by proxy, but why stop there? Why not plural gay marriages?
I vote for glitter.
Posted by: Mariana | November 21, 2008 2:54 AM
Meh... if there is indeed an afterlife, I hope raging homophobes don't get rewarded with all that fun buttsecks after they die.
But I'm all for getting Mormon knickers in a twist, so whatever does the trick.
Posted by: SocraticGadfly | November 21, 2008 3:17 AM
MMM, Brigham Young with 27 husbands instead of wives!
Posted by: pcarini | November 21, 2008 3:17 AM
All you'd have to do is somehow make it a shoddy multi-level marketing scheme. If there's one thing Mormons (the Utah ones, at least) can't resist it's a MLM scam.
As some shyster says an episode of The Simpsons "It's not a pyramid scheme, it's a trapezoid scheme!"
Posted by: Rick R | November 21, 2008 3:30 AM
"All you'd have to do is somehow make it a shoddy multi-level marketing scheme. If there's one thing Mormons (the Utah ones, at least) can't resist it's a MLM scam."
Oh no you DIDN'T just say that!!
I never really knew anything about Mormons until I befriended a 63-year old husband and father of four (and grandfather of 14) who came out of the closet after seeing "Brokeback Mountain". Since then I've gotten the inside scoop on all the weirdness.
And sure enough, he got caught up in a couple of MLM schemes after his divorce (poor guy really had next to nothing after dutifully tithing to his nazi church for 35 years).
There really does seem to be a correlation between swallowing mormon doctrine and believeing in MLM scams.
Somebody should write a book.
Posted by: Rick R | November 21, 2008 3:37 AM
"As some shyster says an episode of The Simpsons "It's not a pyramid scheme, it's a trapezoid scheme!"
I love the Diana Ross cover of "I'm caught in a love dodecahedron".
It never really made the charts.
Posted by: Feynmaniac | November 21, 2008 3:40 AM
I stopped reading the series after Xenocide. It seems like there's some unwritten rule in science fiction that every book in a series has to have half the quality of its predecessor.
Posted by: Ben Edmans | November 21, 2008 3:46 AM
Nice one. Having just been converted to homosexuality by the wit and charm of this website, I hereby announce my campaign to spread this new gospel of True Love.
Join me, pcarini et al. We shall have a well funded campaign (thanks to Hollywood and pop music sales), real youth appeal ("you guys are sooo boring. Let's party") and articulate spokesmen (no eg.s needed). Door to door evangelism is a must.
If homosexuality were a religion, it would win hands down. This seems to be how the Church of Morons thinks the world works. Funny that the early xians were pretty down on any sort of marriage. In Nineteen Eighty-Four, a character has an interesting argument about how sexual othodoxy and repression is related to political conservatism (keep ourselves pure, comrades, and focus on our Great Leader and the Cause).
Anyway, let's get this campaign going. Anyone want to take this idea and run with it?
Posted by: natural cynic | November 21, 2008 3:52 AM
Fairy dust
Posted by: Kel | November 21, 2008 3:53 AM
lol.Ender's Game was sublime, but I fear reading any of his other stuff as to not dilute my opinion of the writer.
Posted by: Gustaf | November 21, 2008 3:54 AM
I've got the impression that LDS members are actually quite aware of the offense their retroactive 'baptising' can cause, and usually take good measures to avoid offending living relatives. I don't remember exactly how, but I had the steps described for me by a believer. As a non-believer, I think the practice is quite harmless.
Something I find more disturbing about Mormons is that they insist that a person is ready for confirmation at age 8. They skip the senseless baptism of infants, but have confirmation much earlier instead. Naturally, a child that age shares most opinions with their parents. Other churches have confirmation around 15, and I'd say even that is too early to have a reasoned opinion about why we are here.
Posted by: Escuerd | November 21, 2008 4:03 AM
"Ender's Game" was the only worthwhile book in the series that I've read, and I now regret buying any at all. I will buy no more of Card's works.
Posted by: Kel | November 21, 2008 4:06 AM
So Speaker For The Dead not worth reading?
Posted by: Peter Kemp (Aussie Lawyer) | November 21, 2008 4:06 AM
You'll need a new limerick PZ to counteract an old one:
Posted by: Sigmund | November 21, 2008 4:58 AM
An atheist missionary at work.
http://sneerreview.blogspot.com/2008/06/god-converts-to-atheism.html
Posted by: Muffin | November 21, 2008 5:24 AM
Good idea! But who will be the bride?
Also, http://www.sinfest.net/archive_page.php?comicID=2131 .
Posted by: Beth Nott | November 21, 2008 5:32 AM
This baptism for the dead thing does actually serve a purpose--for the living, of course. It's an excuse to round up the teenagers and monopolize their time, and lets them see a little bit of the inside of the temple so that hopefully, they'll get horny for their temple passes and funny underwear.
Oh, and during the "millennium" (which starts after the rapture and armageddon, i.e. any minute now), the baptized dead people will come flying back down to earth and help fill in all the genealogy records, so that every person who was ever born all the way back to Adam and Eve will be baptized.
Posted by: Valhar2000 | November 21, 2008 5:38 AM
Why not go the whole hog? Declare that, through divine revelation most glorious, we have indisputable knowledge that all mormons that have ever lived and died are now gay, paired in loving homosexual marriages, blessed by the lord their god, having anal sex every day.
Yeah! How do they like them apples?
Posted by: Sanity Jane | November 21, 2008 5:46 AM
Ol' Brigham before his demise
Bred with females of every size
Now post-humous conversion
Via PZ's subversion
Has replaced them with hunky dead guys.
Posted by: Pikemann Urge | November 21, 2008 5:52 AM
Here's a plan. Convert all Mormons past and present to Islam. Make them all by default Muslims. This is instant and universal coverage with no obligation to them, the converted.
There is no opt-in, but they may opt-out. Opting out involves going to a local mosque and denying that Muhammed was a prophet... to an imam's face.
Seems that Beth, #66 has a good point ("an excuse to round up the teenagers and monopolize their time").
Posted by: Jim Darby | November 21, 2008 6:04 AM
This just reminds me of the best part of being atheist: the humour (brit spelling, I'm in England and speak English!).
I'm not sure there's a specific reason why but you have to admit it, we do have the funniest ideas.
Posted by: Fernando Magyar | November 21, 2008 7:06 AM
Posted by: Rick R
Of course not! a dodecahedron is a PLATONIC solid. Duh.
Posted by: Zetten | November 21, 2008 7:13 AM
The other option to deal with the pro-Prop 8 group is to stop recognising the marriages of straight couples. Refer to them as girlfriend/boyfriend, 'life partners', or other such terms, and refuse to be corrected by their insistence that they're husband & wife.
(This was on some blog I read this morning but I can't remember where)
Posted by: Andrés Diplotti | November 21, 2008 7:14 AM
So, the idea is to make them posthumousexuals?
Posted by: davem | November 21, 2008 7:33 AM
As an amateur genealogist, I must say that the LDS baptisms are the most useful thing to come out of any religion since sliced bread and fishes. Since members are expected to locate their ancestors and baptise them, they provide the records to enable this. You can go to your local LDS church, and access records from all over the world for free. Nothing is asked for, and nothing given. No proseletysing either. It's a wonderful resource, which would cost millions to replace.
So, yes, it's absolutely crazy, but shhhh! Leave it alone. Disrespectful? If it worked, definitely, but meh...
Posted by: Kobra | November 21, 2008 7:43 AM
@70
I suspect that the ones who tend to question religion are the more intelligent and clever people.
See #73. :P
Posted by: Randy | November 21, 2008 8:02 AM
I have no problem with this, since if folks cared to understand what occurs in regards to baptism for the dead, one would know that mormon doctrine states that the baptism is an offering, not a forced commitment for someone else. So you can all offer homosexuality, atheism what ever, and the dead (if one assumes an afterlife, which you don't have to of course) can chose to accept or reject that offering. I agree for PR sake baptizing certain people is not a good idea.
Most baptism are done for FAMILY members, so not for other peoples revered dead. Mormons officially will not baptize certain holocaust victims (although zealots will still do it), unless the request comes from a direct line descendent.
As for declaring dead mormons gay, you all have been beat to that punch by D Michael Quinn, check google books for Same-Sex Dynamics Among Nineteenth-Century Americans By D. Michael Quinn
Posted by: NickG | November 21, 2008 8:23 AM
I have yet to baptize anyone queer, but about a year ago I was flying back from speaking a speaking engagement and I had a stopover in SLC. My connecting flight ended up being 'Air Mormon' with probably at least half of the seats kids who were going out on that missionary gig they do.
I ended up sitting next to two boys who were apparently fresh from their indoctrination... er training and were heading to CA to start their mission. The one next to me starts up a conversation with me that was only 98% transparent. And I really was not in the mood to be subject to some junior-mormon-scout proselytizing. I let him go on with the 'how about those Sacramento kings' crap until he started hinting about religion, by which point I had planned what I'd say:
Me: "Tell you what, I am going to save us both a lot of time."
Mormon kid: "What do you mean?"
Me: "Well, I'm a gay physician who works at a women's health clinic that focuses on lesbian, transgender, and reproductive health care two days a week in San Francisco. I just came back teaching medical students about queer health care. I'm a pacifist socialist, a hard atheist, and my boyfriend works for Planned Parenthood."
Mormon kid: "Ha ha ha."
Me: "No, I'm serious."
Mormon kid: "Really?"
Me: "Really."
The funny part is the kid kind of shrugged his shoulders and was totally chill after that. (I was sort of expecting him to crawl into his buddies lap.) I even lent him my Wired magazine and gave them most of my bag of mini-snickers and trail mix. Apparently even whack nut religious teen-aged boys are pretty easy with the right snacks.
Posted by: heddle | November 21, 2008 8:25 AM
Jimminy Christmas #26,
Insensitive? Offensive? What are you, a primo-wuss? For crying out loud, just ignore it. Don't let your little heart go all a-flutter over it. Odds are you're an American--we are still world leaders in at least one category--the percentage of our citizens who are sissies and get offended so easily.
Oh, and don't worry, I won't be praying for you. Don't give what is holy to a dog, no pearls before swine, etc.
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | November 21, 2008 8:28 AM
Feynmaniac @ #56:
"Children of the Mind" is something of an exception to that rule. Personally, I see those three books (Speaker For the Dead, Xenocide, and Children of the Mind) as one large book, as I read them in sequence. (Not sequins. I'm not a dead Mormon.) Xenocide was fairly dull, but how many books have exciting middles?
I think of the Ender saga as having three components: Battle School (Ender's Game, Ender's Shadow); Speaker (Speaker for the Dead, Xenocide, Children of the Mind); and Shadows of Tom Clancy (all of the rest).
Posted by: Gregory Earl | November 21, 2008 8:30 AM
Heddle, please, don't pray for me either.
Jimminy, just tell them you will think about them rationally and evidence-based in return.
Posted by: Benjamin Geiger | November 21, 2008 8:33 AM
NickG @ #77:
Most of the Mormons I've dealt with (which basically means those that have knocked on my door) have been reasonably respectful, and not overly pushy. Mission or no, they seem to be less inclined to holy-roller-ism.
Posted by: NickG | November 21, 2008 8:40 AM
Heddle: "Insensitive? Offensive? What are you, a primo-wuss?"
No just appropriately offended by the condescension and insult implied by 'praying for' someone.
And given that he probably lives in the US which is a country in which religion often trumps human rights, I think the implied offense is more than simply insulting. A couple of weeks ago, the Mormon church's money paid for propaganda that succeeded in getting a slight majority of the voters in California to decide that my husband and I do not deserve the same rights and privileges of a heterosexual couple. That's not only insulting but threatening, intimidating, and repugnant.
So feel free to abstain from prayer for me and I will make sure that I don't think of you when I am having butsecks, K? Of course that is a win-win for me.
Posted by: Nick Gotts | November 21, 2008 8:43 AM
heddle,
"I'll pray for you" addressed to an atheist in the course of a religious argument is, in most cases, clearly intended to offend: it's a smug declaration of the personal superiority of the prayer over the prayee. If you're too stupid to see that, blame your ludicrous belief-system.
Posted by: Matt Heath | November 21, 2008 8:49 AM
As Dyan @22 alluded to Rufus Wainwright had a much more appropriate idea (Maybe best with earphones if at work)Although, come to think of it, maybe better not with the corpses.
Posted by: Sastra | November 21, 2008 8:51 AM
When people would tell me they'd "pray for me," I used to automatically say "thank you." I was responding to the good will that was presumably behind the words, and not the technical part. But of course, I'd make distinction between someone just expressing good wishes in their own idiom, and someone who knew I was an atheist, and so they were making some kind of a point.
I don't say "thank you" anymore, though. Instead, I reply with "I hope you have a really nice day." For one thing, it doesn't feel so hypocritical, as if I'm endorsing prayer as efficacious. I'm re-translating the meaningless religious ritual into meaningful secular terms, as a better model. I can also, depending on how the offer was expressed, change my tone from one of sincerity to a slightly mocking "one trite cliche deserves another," and express my point right back at them. And, finally, it's a neutral enough response that it's hard for them to take offense. It sounds gracious -- especially if they'd been expecting or hoping that I would make a fuss. And unless they've been very bad indeed I probably would prefer they had a nice day. No skin off my nose. My wishes are no more likely to make anything magic happen than their prayers, but we both believe that the other one exists.
Posted by: heddle | November 21, 2008 8:55 AM
Nick Gotts,
Oooh, you called me stupid, and my beliefs ludicrous--now, just like Jimminy Christmas, I am offended! My self-evident right as an American not to be offended has been violated! Just you wait to we have Canadian-style tribunals! Gosh, now I have the vapors! Woe is me!
Posted by: clinteas | November 21, 2008 8:59 AM
I reckon the idea is extremely cool,and sure to get the mormons all hot under the magic underwear !
This has to be the biggest lie in the history of mankind.
Not only is it not a sacred institution in that collection of bronze age sheepherder stories called the bible,but it has a up to 50% failure rate in todays society,and grossly ignores the reality of attractions happening in the real world.
Posted by: ajarizona | November 21, 2008 9:05 AM
What a fool....Educate yourself before writing!
Mormons don't "convert" anyone by doing baptisms for the dead.
What's behind this practice.
John 3:5 No man can enter heaven without having been baptised. Baptism is an earthly ordinance.
Those who die without baptism are stuck right?
Remedy:
1 Cor. 15:29 Else what shall they do which are baptised for the dead if the dead rise not at all, why are they then baptised for the dead?
Clearly there was an ancient practice of doing baptisms for those who passed on without having been baptised while on earth. It's in everyones New Testament. It did not originate with Mormons. It does not convert them to Mormonism. Nor are these names added to the rolls of the lds church as members.
People can accept or reject this in the afterlife.
If anyone believes it's all hooey then whats the difference.
If people want to pray for my soul, do a dance, spin three times, jump into a pool of jello, for my soul, then so be it.
I may think they are misguided but I would appreciate the effort. It's all harmless.
The jews don't have any special claim to all jews. We're all descendants of Adam and Eve, and therefore, we are all family, or cousins so to speak.
It seems there are alot of peole in this country who 1-don't want to allow Freedom of Religion or 2-Freedom to participate in the democrat process.
Grow up you whiney boobs!
ajarizona
Posted by: Matt Heath | November 21, 2008 9:09 AM
@ajarizona: Thing is, the book your quoting is a load of tiresome, mythical bollocks and making dead Mormons gay is hilarious.
Posted by: clinteas | November 21, 2008 9:10 AM
This has to be a record....88 posts until the first lunatic showed up LOL
Posted by: ennui | November 21, 2008 9:10 AM
@ajarizona---Llaauurraa, is that you?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp, KoT, OM | November 21, 2008 9:13 AM
What a fucking stupid thing to say.
So the Jew can accept or reject this in the afterlife? The Atheist?
The Buddhist?
oh shit! DUCK!
BOOOM!!!
BOOOM!!
Non-sequitur and irony meter all at the same time.
Son of a bitch. It's costly to keep replacing these things with the economy like this.