No hard feelings, people, I lived there for a while…but Hoosiers sure can pick 'em. I was there when Dan Quayle was the hero of the hour, and I had no idea they could sink even lower. Here he is, though: Congressman Mark Souder, who claims that the highlight of his year was appearing in Expelled. Seriously, and with fervor.
I personally believe that there is no issue more important to our society than intelligent design. I believe that if there wasn't a purpose in designing you — regardless of who you view the designer as being — then, from my perspective, you can't be fallen from that design. If you can't be fallen from that design, there's no point to evangelism.
Well, there you go. The economy is a mess, we're in a war, and the most important thing in the world to an Indiana congressman is proselytizing for Jesus in a crappy Intelligent Design creationism movie.
Now, how that occurred — whether you believe in the young earth theory, gradual evolution, or whatever — is disputed. Those become religious. But whether there was a fundamental designer who developed a complex DNA molecular structure is critical. Since I view that as the most important thing in the world, yes, being in a movie that advanced that cause was the personal highlight of the year.
Hey, I was in that movie, too! I still haven't seen it, though. Maybe Souder's performance would turn me into a born-again Christian if I saw it.
Nah…I predict that he was a corn-poney dope in the movie, just like he is in the interview.
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I did see Expelled, but the good congressman will be disappointed to learn that I have absolutely no recollection at all of his appearance. It must have been a high point of the movie.
Does anybody know how many wingnuts sit in our Congress? Perhaps the way to get better governhment is to start by identifying the brain-dead.
Lee,
They already self-identify. Just look for the little (R) next to their name.
He's one of the idiots who "judged" congressionally that Sternberg had been persecuted, too. I'd guess that's what he was in the film for, though I don't remember his name from my casual viewing of the movie.
Pathetic, is about all I can say.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
He must have some very low expectations for his high point; alternatively, perhaps his mother was eaten by a shark or something.
"Or whatever." Hmmm....
We could only wish they were brain-dead in reality: then they would sit there, and do absolutely nothing. They wouldn't vote, they wouldn't speak to the press, they would literally lie there and do nothing all day.
Doing nothing is superior to doing something terribly wrong...
...which is what these fundie-zealots are actually doing.
I agree: they've shut their minds down, with regards to reality-based thinking (science).
But, they've replaced that with fantasy-based thinking--and that's much, much worse.
However, identifying these idiots? That may or may not be a good thing. The US is full of like-minded idiots who see nothing wrong with the "good" senator's comments...
My family has a lake cottage in Souder's district and I am sorry to report that his recent Democratic opponent wasn't measurably better, judging from television ads: mostly anti-choice, just as religious and more conservative than you crap. That part of Indiana has an abundance of beautiful lakes and willfully ignorant people. It's an odd mix, though: I've talked with locals who listen to Rush Limbaugh regularly, yet actively campaign to support wildlife preservation efforts.
This is how the creationists can win. They are NUTS and nuts don't quit.
Economic meltdown, run away climate change, Middle East asploding. meh.
What matters is that we where made for a purpose. The selfish, arbitrary purpose of an "unnamed" Creator. But not that well, because we failed to live up to that purpose, and He got pissed off and started punishing us for his shitty design fail. But it's OK because after a few thousand years of leaving us in this fallen state He suddenly changed his mind sent (and killed in the nasty way possible) an upgrade patch to save us. THAT'S what really matters most.
AIDS and malaria in Africa? Russia flexing imperial muscles under an authoritarian-minded leader? Americans spend more for worse healthcare than any other Westerners? Forget it! What matters is intelligent design.
I am sorry to spam (does a second post with the same link count as spam?) but if this online vote carries any significance then
I think it should be pharyngulated, post haste. It requires 174 more votes to get to the next round.
The idea is as follows
Link
http://www.change.org/ideas/view/create_nationally_required_science_sta…
I think I want this quote (attributed thusly) on my wall.
-- Mr. O. W. A. Giveaway
I wish I was in it. My labmate is in the protest scene at the cre[a]ti[o]n museum for like 10 whole seconds. i was so jealous.
It took me two sittings to get through Expelled, it is so damn painful to watch. If any of you guys have Netflix you can stream it directly to your computer. I'm hoping they don't get any royalties off the streams.
His appearance proves one thing: That ID is more of a political movement as the IDiots have not done any science.
So in his view all those things must be true or else there is no point to evangelism. But working backwards, if there is no point to evangelism, then we don't have to be fallen from a design, and therefore there doesn't have to be a design, and therefore there doesn't have to be a designer and therefore there doesn't have to be a purpose. Well, that solves it for me.
I just went and visited Chicago, where it's always pick-on-Indiana day (and rightly so!).
The idea that not being the plaything of an all-powerful sky-god somehow entails nihilism is baffling, but so common it doesn't faze me anymore. But this:
has me scratching my head. You can't be "fallen" (i.e., can't be tainted with Original Sin) if we weren't farted into existence by this sky daddy? And this would be a bad thing?! I mean, FSMdamn, that's a twisted morality.
"I'm hoping they don't get any royalties off the streams."
There's always torrenting, and then remuxing the file you get with that subtitle stream that points out all the lies and contradictions and outright crazy.
http://www.bogosity.tv/forum/index.php?topic=27.msg216#msg216
This twit's remarks remind me again about Lori Lipman Brown's comment in the radio interview a couple of weeks ago (find it here under "Radio Reminder"!) about how the Secular Coalition's having trouble finding sponsorship for this in Congress:
I'd like to see people get behind this effort, even if it's "merely" symbolic.
By my happy monkey I think this is the funniest thing I've read all day. Seriously.
Here's another problem with Intelligent Design theory: creationist crackpots like Souder thinks the idea implies personal creation, but ID does not suggest whole organisms was designed. In other words, while I would attest that ID could work as a scientific hypothesis, creationists cling on to it, misunderstand it, and promote it to imply creationism.
Disclaimer: I am not a cdesign proponetsist. Just sayin'...
(And if people are really interested, I wrote a little post about what I think of ID.)
um.... isn't that the point?
Mark @ 10: When the first commenter mentioned it, he said it needed 110 votes. When I went to look at it and vote, it said it needed 151 votes. Now you're saying it needs 174 votes. WTF?
In this great metropolis *snicker* of St. Louis, MO the term "hoosier" is used as a synonym for "redneck" or "hick". Now I know why.
(Not that St. Louisans have the right to point fingers. Ugh)
It's not often that there's news about Indiana that doesn't make me ashamed to live here.
For christianity to make sense doesn't the Adam and Eve stoy have to be literally true? Original sin comes form them and jesus dies for our sins, so doesn't this wishy washy ID not go against christianity?
Expelled is seriouly a great film though, if you watch a pirated version with the lie-correcting subtitles.
I can't wait until Illinois annexes Northwest Indiana so I can be done with the rest of this backwards state. I'll take corrupt politicians over god-botherers any day.
Hey PZ, how do you spell M*O*R*A*N?
"Hey, I was in that movie, too! I still haven't seen it, though." - don't worry, i'm sure you were better than that Dawkins creep.
PZ, you should watch it. The digital effects they used were awesome, you should see the forked tongue and horns they edited on to you and Mr. Dawkins.
Seriously though, I watched it to "angry up the blood", which it did, but it also made me nauseous so I turned it off about 30 mins into it.
I personally believe that there is no issue more important than bacon slathered in a honey/brown sugar glaze. Whether you believe in sweet, delicious bacon, other glazed pork products or are a filthy abaconist, no one can deny that there is simply nothing more pressing on your time and resources. So, yes; xmas breakfast was the highlight of my year.
As in TV's Erin Moran from Happy Days and Joanie Loves Chachi?
@ Bjørn Østman -
Am I correct in reading you as pointing out that ID - and evolution, too - is not about the origins of the individual, but of populations, species, "kinds"? If so, I emphatically agree.
Creationism of the anti-evolution sort does not say that "I am a creature of God".
It says that a long time ago, long before your or my birth, before our distant ancestors' births, there was a divine action of some kind that resulted in vertebrates having special eyes, or "kinds" "suddenly appearing".
One other point I'd make is that if the human body was specially designed, it was designed to be very much like the bodies of chimps and other apes. And if that is supposed to be significant, doesn't that say that we ought to follow the intentions of our designer and act like apes?
Like This?
It's a rating thing - top 3 (I guess) move on, and it's #4. So if it gets x more votes, it becomes #3, thus moving on. So the number depends on how much the other top 3 are voted for.
#21 "In other words, while I would attest that ID could work as a scientific hypothesis, creationists cling on to it, misunderstand it, and promote it to imply creationism."
Its useless as a scientific hypothesis. Its untestable and you can make no predictions with it.
With an all powerful being creating and designing you have to throw out scientific theory. If a supreme being can make any rules it wants for whatever reason it wants than nothing is predictable.
"Giraffes eat the leaves at the tops of trees because their necks are long"
Guess Souder is out of luck then. Intelligent design creationism is just flat out wrong. Therefore he can toss his bible and sleep in on Sundays.
Actually he is even more wrong than that. Evolution is a scientific theory and has nothing to do with religion. The majority of xians worldwide know this and more or less don't worry about it.
As PZ pointed out, this guy is even more cuckoo than that. The USA has huge problems with a broken economy, pointless war, and looming energy crisis among others. Wingnut discredited pseudoscientific theories aren't even on the list. Polls show that this culture war stuff really isn't that interesting to most Americans. Only 10 or 20% total, from both sides, really care that much. When you have a life to lead, kids to raise, and a living to make, it ranks somewhere down below what is on TV that night.
Him and Michelle Bachmann. About time for him to call the next president unamerican (again) and demand an investigation.
Randy @31,
Here, here! I think we can all agree to put aside our petty differences and come together in support of bacon. Sweet, sweet, treifalicious bacon. Mmmmm... *drool*
At least we voted for Obama??
You know, my parents came from Connecticut and California. Why we moved to Indiana I'll never know. (Although low housing costs may have helped.)
I personally believe that there is no issue more important to our society than MAGIC. I believe that if there wasn't a purpose in MAGICALLY CREATING you -- regardless of who you view the MAGIC FAIRY as being -- then, from my perspective, you can't be fallen from that MAGIC. If you can't be fallen from that MAGIC, there's no point to evangelism.
Quit picking on Souder - he's not so bad.
I have to deal with Dan Burton.
*****
Just FYI, you did manage to push a button when dissing Quayle - as a congresscritter and a Senator, he was pretty pro-science - always in favor of increasing NASA and NSF budgets. He just was a lousy extemporaneous speaker - I sympathize. I can't go through a lecture unless I rehearse a couple of times.
Oh, and the "potatoe" thingie? Contrary to Murphy Brown scripts, that was the spelling the teachers told the kids to use.
fusilier, in beautiful downtown Southport
Jmaes 2:24
Hey PZ, how do you spell M*O*R*A*N?
You mean this guy?
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=wl_Lacg5m3g&feature=related
That was, of course, supposed to be "James 2:24," and I did use the preview button.
Really.
fusilier
James 2:24
I can whole heartedly get behind this movement.
I live just outside of Souder's district and got treated to his ads all the time during the election. Boy, he sure had a bone to pick with us liberals and our ABORTIONS.
Of course he had a problem with abortion. The fundies don't want any possible way for you to excape your sins.
Egad. The congressman is from northern Indiana; the library harpy is from central Indiana. I'm in southern Indiana. If teh stoopid gets too close, I can always run for the border to ... Kentucky. [groan]
Maybe I could go back to my home state of ... Louisiana. [groan]
Perhaps I'll build a fortress of my books.
Um, wtf does this even mean? And Prof. Dawkins is a creep how, exactly?
CortxVortx, you ignorant slut! Don't you know the fundies like to burn books?
fusilier,
You know what? I really don't like Dan "my fellow astronauts" Quayle. A moron with terrible speech writers in my book. But I'll grant you that about science funding -- he was good on that by my recollection, too. And yeah, the "potatoe" thing is unfair.
BTW, good choice of Bible passage. I wish more Christians held that sentiment and not the toxic stuff of, say, Galatians 2:16. 'Cause I'm okay with that kind of belief. I think it's wrong, sure, but I can get along with it and appreciate the sentiment.
"...there's no point to evangelism."
Bingo!
"I personally believe that there is no issue more important to our society than intelligent design. I believe that if there wasn't a purpose in designing you -- regardless of who you view the designer as being"
Agreed,the designer has a pupose for me, To fuck with all the religious retards,and point out what a bunch of narrow minded, arrogant, bigots they all are.
"...there's no point to evangelism."
Agreed.
what a dumb fuck.
luckily, as souder is pussy footing round the word 'god' (at least in those 2 quotes)and talking gibberish its likey that many creationists will have no idea what hes actually talking because they are simply to numb.
whoops, thats 'too numb'
I live in Fort Wayne, the epicenter of Souderism. Everybody I know claims to have voted against this know-nothing, yet he keeps winning. Devine intervention, perhaps?
The interview is question appeared in our local paper, where my wife works. It was so painful I couldn't even get through it.
Interestly, Souder was first elected about seven terms ago on a promise to serve only two. Isn't there a commandment about false witness?
Christie, here's a not-too-unfair translation:
"If there's no Divine Plan, then no one's a sinner, which would mean my holier-than-thou posture is a sham, which is a proposition I will not entertain for even a second, therefore ID is true. QED."
As a DePauw student and native of Indiana, I would like to disown Dan Quayle. And Mark Souder, for that matter.
Well, from what I gather it seems Indiana is getting somewhat less wingnutty with time. After all, the Hoosiers did help us send Sarah Palin back home. Let's give them a little credit for that at least.
I have to admit, when he tries to suggest that it could be God but we have to at least believe
I imagine him thinking that maybe we're just this side of the Galaxy's version of the Vorta.
Vanessa@58,
As a member of Homo sapiens, I would like to disown Dan Quayle. And Mark Souder, for that matter!
I live in Indiana, home of this tool. Not only that, I'm from Kentucky, home of the freakin creation "museum". I'd just like to apologize on behalf of my misdirected, ignorant neighbors. We're working on it.
Scott @57,
That... actually makes sense in a twisted sort of way. Mystery solved.
I would like to point out that the most facepalm-inducing point Souder made was when he said this:
"The documentary about intelligent design - also called creationism - hosted by Ben Stein . . ."
The man didn't even get the memo about the party line about what the propaganda film he appeared in--the highlight of his year!--was even about.
The entire Republican contingent from Indiana (Souder, Buyer, Burton, and Pence) is competing for the Dumb, Dumber, and Dumbest Prize. Can one state get the trifecta?
How do you spell "MORAN" ? Would that be Colonel Sebastian Moran, the second most dangerous man in London, according to Sherlock Holmes? The plot thickens!
He may have ignored the memo, in fact.
He's a politician sucking up to constituencies, not a paid liar for the CSC/DI. There are a whole lot of people calling themselves "creationists," many of whom probably have doubts about the orthodoxy of ID, and not a lot of people hanging onto the dog of ID--especially after Dover.
No, he's doing the DI and their CSC no favors by identifying ID as creationism, but he is helping himself out by doing so, I'll wager. Whether he's doing it stupidly or intelligently, I cannot say. What is virtually certain is that politicians who know where the votes are will continue to equate the two, no matter how many lies the DI "fellows" relate to the contrary.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
...regardless of who you view the designer as being...
The identity of the designer does in fact matter a great deal. As Professor Dawkins pointed out in The Extended Phenotype, who or what an adaptation benefits has crucial importance in explaining it. Even in religious terms, it would make a great deal of difference had Lucifer designed man rather than God.
I shot my 'War on Christmas' photo (Christ of the Guns) in Indiana, years ago when I was a grad student. Why go on an anthropological expedition to New Guinea when Indiana is so much closer?
@ Peter
I'm like the anti-Peter. I'm from Indiana, but I live in Kentucky. We should totally be best friends forever.
"If you can't be fallen from that design, there's no point to evangelism."
Well, we agree on one thing.
"I believe that if there wasn't a purpose in designing you -- regardless of who you view the designer as being -- then, from my perspective, you can't be fallen from that design. If you can't be fallen from that design, there's no point to evangelism."
What kind of brain chemistry does one need to have for this paragraph to make any sense at all?
"What matters is that we where made for a purpose. The selfish, arbitrary purpose of an "unnamed" Creator. But not that well, because we failed to live up to that purpose, and He got pissed off and started punishing us for his shitty design fail. But it's OK because after a few thousand years of leaving us in this fallen state He suddenly changed his mind sent (and killed in the nasty way possible) an upgrade patch to save us. THAT'S what really matters most."
I think we should start putting monuments with this text on it next to all the Ten Commandments ones.
Having grown up and am currently living in Indiana, I also apologize for some of the backwards morons here. We voted for Obama though, does that count for anything?
I'm going back to being in the closet atheism wise - it's just easier.
Vanessa wrote:
Me too. I'm also from Indiana, (went to Valparaiso University), and I'm still here.
Levi in NY wrote:
Indiana is still pretty wingnutty as far as I can tell. We've even got Amish colonies. Things had to get pretty bad for the state to stop voting Republican. They're going to be hard for Obama to hold onto. And if they vote democratic, it won't be a good Democrat if they have a choice.
"...it would make a great deal of difference had Lucifer designed man rather than God." - Fellow, #68
I think even Lucifer would not have been so malignant as to put the sewage disposal system so close to the playground. (Much less design the appendix, the recurrent laryngeal nerve, and other Incompetent Design features - see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_poor_design.)
I've always taken the position on Intelligent Design that I'd believe in it if I could see any.
@Howard Hershey #65: Not to mention three Blue Dogs in the House, plus Evan Bayh's ineffectiveness.
@Vanessa #58: Go Tigers! Also, I disown the entire Indiana state government and national legislators.
Considering how important the legislature is, does it really make sense for us to only vote for people from our state anymore? To me, it's far more important to have Dennis Kucinich fighting the good fight than Andre Carson or Brad Ellsworth, but all I can do as a Kucitizen is try to send him ten dollars every now and then.
@ #48 for MORAN please see #34, #42 and #66 two of whom got it right and a third who found it elementary.
as for Dawkins being a creep please see http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcasm
and for some religious single syllable education, see http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4qqoL8Vscmc
@ #48 for MORAN please see #34, #42 and #66 two of whom got it right and a third who found it elementary.
as for Dawkins being a creep please see http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/sarcasm
and for some religious single syllable education, see http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=4qqoL8Vscmc
Apologies to rational Hoosiers for piling on, but the Indiana Supreme Court recently ruled that it's legal to provide the very popular "In God We Trust" license plates at no extra charge while charging an extra $15 for other specialty plates.
This isn't ignorance of the establishment clause; it's a purposeful attack.
I thought every day was pick on Indiana day?
I'm sure this has already been said in the comments (or maybe not, I don't know), but I love how he basically says "There's GOT to be an impossible, supernatural standard that we can't possibly hope to meet, otherwise we aren't all degenerate failures! And if we aren't all degenerate failures then.. then maybe I'm just a bad person. ...Er! I mean, um... um.. if we aren't all degenerate failures than it's harder to rope people into religion!"
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument_from_poor_design
This link should be without sin.
Re: #49
Oh, shit, hadn't thought of that. I'll have to fight my way through to a blue state!
(I once heard Indiana described as "the northern-most Southern state.")
Dude was absolutely right. There is no point to evangelism.
Mark Souder:
Wow, ur kuntry is teh fukt up!
I think he might have fallen on his head.
Well, he's half right.
Just returned home from my semi-annual trip to the video store. A new feature there is "we recommend" signs with "if you liked this one, you might like ..." suggestions.
"Expelled" was one of the ones honored with a "we recommend" card. The other suggested titles included "Inherit the Wind," "Passion of the Christ" and a Michael Moore film (can't remember which). Weird.
Dude was absolutely right. There is no point to evangelism.
Well that's the problem. He wants there to be a point to it. Hence, the nuttery.
Ha ha! Souder's my state representative! My family and I have been adamantly against him for a long long time but haven't been able to vote him out of office. This is just one reason why we absolutely can't STAND the guy.
We're not ALL nutjobs.
The congressman nailed it on the head, there simply is no point to evangelism.
I really hate living in this goddamn state sometimes. At least I wasn't born in Indiana. *sigh* I need to move. Seattle, maybe. Or San Francisco.
Wow, more bad news from my native state, huh?
Indiana's still full of a lot of wingnuttery, but we are slowly getting better. At least I'd like to believe that.
Good science standards...voting for Obama/Biden instead of McCain/Palin...we're getting there.
Really, there are some rational Hoosiers out there. We're working on the rest of the state.
Kurt Vonnegut, a great man, was from Indiana. That helps balance it out a bit. Of course, he died in New York, which tells you something.
So it goes.
Yeah, it seems that Vonnegut was always ashamed of his native state.
I was reading "A Man Without A Country" and other writings of his, and he always seemed ashamed of Indiana, which I can't particularly blame him for, also being from the state.
Of course, he also frowned upon the idea of being proud of any state or any country. He did imply that one shouldn't be proud of an arbitrary geographic boundary. At least he mentions Indianapolis in "Slapstick".
(By the way...for all you pedantic enthusiasts: I use quotations marks because I don't know code.)
Seriously, you know the pedantic sporting is getting ugly when you have to issue a pre-emptive warning about it. Sometimes I wish that people would simply shut up about it. It's important to me, too, but it's not that important. Wow, sometimes people do make small mistakes in grammar or syntax or punctuation when typing something over the Internet. Someone have a heart attack about it!
These uber-pedantics are just one more type of concern troll to me.
I have lived in Indiana a total of 29 years, slightly more than half my life and more than half of my adult life. There are a very few islands of (comparatively) secular sanity and respect for learning, for fact, for Enlightenment values, and for the scientific method -- parts of Indianapolis and the university towns of West Lafayette and Bloomington. The rest of Indiana -- especially the largely rural counties and the small towns like the one I live in -- is pretty consistent in its dominant attitudes and anti-intellectualism.
I wish I could say I see any favorable evolution of the Zeitgeist here in the Hoosier State, but I don't.
Honey on bacon? This abomination is unknown in Her Majesties Realm. Is the Designer known?
Why is it that there seems to be a type of person that proposes this sort of idea, yet is virtually unable to articulate it properly? Reading through the Congressmans words was like jabbing a fork in my leg. How do these people rise to positions of power and importance?
Sadly, by being cleverer and more motivated than those they trick into voting them in. I shudder to think of what the truly stupid among them believe.
Über-pedants tend to target pseudo-pedants, not such as you :)
Relax.
Quotation marks are fine for quoting, but there's not much to HTML tags - bold and italics can greatly improve your presentation.
John Morales, thanks for the pointers! I have used some code before on a different website, but sometimes there are small differences and I'm not really much of a technical person to begin with, so...sometimes I need a briefing to catch up.
It would be nice if P.Z. had a list of commonly used code and phrases for Pharyngula beginners. I still have no idea what "happy monkey" means. Yes, I know I should know these things. Drats, one has to learn some time.
Teleprompter, welcome. Most of us lurked for a while before posting to get a feel for the place. I was familiar with BBS code, but HTML tags took a little learning, but are similar to to BBS in structure. It's not that hard to learn blockquote, i, s, b, u, a, and a few others for nice formating. Happy Monkey is a recent occurrence. Use the archives to look earlier in the month (it's in the thread title), somewhere around the middle. This site is like science, the surface changes constantly, but the core remains intact.
I live in his district. Grew up with him as rep for most of my life (that is sad). My parents couldn't stand him and they are registered Republicans. Sadly, the Democrats (or any other party for that matter) can't seem to find any candidate to seriously run against him. Souder originally ran on the platform that he would only stay rep for two terms. What a sleazy hypocrite.
There are people in the area who are trying to be voices of reason. I'm part of a group who has a public access show and blog discussing reason, religion, separation of church and state, science, etc... Just click on my name to check out our blog and online show. I hope no one minds me doing a small plug for our website here.
Souder's a liar!! His canned reply to everything is "it's the most important issue". He replied to a letter I wrote him regarding supporting Frank's marijuana legislation a few months ago and he said then that the war on drugs (particularly poor defenseless old ladies with glaucoma and a joint) is the most important issue.
I'm ashamed to say I was born and raised a Hoosier, and my mom wonders why I didn't move back after grad school.