Pharyngula

The headline says it all

This is a tragedy, amplifed by the idiocy in the subhead:

Brazil girl, alleged rape victim, aborts twins
The procedure on the 9-year-old girl draws complaints from Catholic church

You don’t really need to say more than that.

Comments

  1. #1 Phil Studge
    March 5, 2009

    The archbishop of that diocese wants to excommunicate all those who helped the girl, including the doctors who decided the twin pregnancy would put the girl in grave danger.

    The Church would be doing them a favor by kicking them out!

  2. #2 DaveL
    March 5, 2009

    Alleged rape victim? She’s nine years old! Are they suggesting she could have consented or are they suggesting parthenogenesis is a possibility?

  3. #3 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    March 5, 2009

    Fatima Maia, director of the public university hospital where the abortion was performed, said the 15-week-old pregnancy posed a serious risk to the 80-pound girl.
    “She is very small. Her uterus doesn’t have the ability to hold one, let alone two children,” Maia told the Jornal do Brasil newspaper.
    But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in northeastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a cesarean section.

    Sadistic fucks.

  4. #4 Richard Hart
    March 5, 2009

    Whoa! Rationality raises its demon head in Brazil? Wonderful!

  5. #5 Alex Deam
    March 5, 2009

    “It’s the law of God: Do not kill. We consider this murder,” Miranda said in comments reported by O Globo.

    And if the omnipotent being is real, he can punish this girl himself if he so wants. Or do you think Gid is incapable of punishing people? I wonder why…

  6. #6 MH
    March 5, 2009

    Is it even possible for a nine-year old to give birth to twins?

  7. #7 Kris
    March 5, 2009

    Wow… The last time I was this appalled at the catholic church was when parishioners in Florida beat up a vagrant for stealing communion wafers and then the “heroes” were praised by the clergy.

  8. #8 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “”She is very small. Her uterus doesn’t have the ability to hold one, let alone two children,” Maia told the Jornal do Brasil newspaper.

    But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in northeastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a cesarean section.

    This is a terrifying level of misogyny. He’s outright admitting that, to the church, the life of a nine-year-old girl is utterly unimportant and should be sacrificed in favor of a rapist’s seed.

    I don’t understand how any woman could be a part of this psychotic religion.

  9. #9 Dennis
    March 5, 2009

    Oh man… that’s so messed up and sad on SO many levels- to where I’m not sure what to say on that. The post does indeed sum it up.

  10. #10 Mokele
    March 5, 2009

    I second DaveL – that she was raped is incontrovertible fact.

  11. #11 Patricia the Vulgar, OM
    March 5, 2009

    Nice, more catholic child molesting.

  12. #12 SaraJ
    March 5, 2009

    This kind of story just fills me with blind rage.

  13. #13 MH
    March 5, 2009

    But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in northeastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a cesarean section.

    Punishing the girl for being the victim of rape, just like Muslim Theocrats do.

    Fuck religion.

  14. #14 Matt
    March 5, 2009

    Incomprehensible.

    How do these people sleep or show their face in public?

  15. #15 dead yeti
    March 5, 2009

    everything about this story is making me so angry

  16. #16 KI
    March 5, 2009

    OK I have to go now, I’m going to spend the rest of the day planting seeds for the garden. This is too much to take, and I need to get my mind off the reactionary impulses I’m having.

  17. #17 ProtoK
    March 5, 2009

    MSNBC has to use the term ‘alleged’ because someone has been charged with a crime and he is, presumably even in Brazil, innocent until proven guilty.

  18. #18 Josh
    March 5, 2009

    Shit, people. Wake up.

    Obviously the bitch was asking for it. I bet she was, you know, wearing a shirt. And probably pants! She is personally responsible for the agony of Christ.

  19. #19 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “someone has been charged with a crime and he is, presumably even in Brazil, innocent until proven guilty.”

    Obviously, however, when the victim is 9 years old and pregnant – both things making is abundantly clear that he is guilty beyond a doubt – allegedly just sounds viciously heartless.

  20. #20 Elwood Herring
    March 5, 2009

    Words fail me.

  21. #21 Ernesto García
    March 5, 2009

    Form the article:

    Abortion is illegal in Brazil, but judges can make exceptions if the mother’s life is in danger or the fetus has no chance of survival.

    That’s the exact situation in Argentina as well, but we are are working to change that:

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29512829/

  22. #22 Knockgoats
    March 5, 2009

    I was going to include this disgusting news item as an OT if you hadn’t mentioned it, PZ. Can anyone think of anything in the world that has, over the centuries, been more consistently evil than the Roman Catholic hierarchy?

  23. #23 Skanks
    March 5, 2009

    Reading this story has made me so angry, every time I think I can put up with the Catholic Church I read something like this.

  24. #24 SC, OM
    March 5, 2009

    No, no, no!

    Atheists can’t judge them because we can’t ground our prescriptive moral propositions. Christians, in contrast, have a completely solid and adequate justification of theirs, so theirs must be the moral position.

    Eric explains it all very clearly here:

    http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/02/radio_reminder_49.php#comment-1442273

    I mean, sheesh. Do you people know nothing about deontic logic?

  25. #25 Knockgoats
    March 5, 2009

    MSNBC has to use the term ‘alleged’ because someone has been charged with a crime and he is, presumably even in Brazil, innocent until proven guilty. ProtoK

    Nonsense. That she is a rape victim is absolutely clear – to suppose that a nine-year-old can validly consent to sex is ludicrous. That does not imply that the accused is guilty – just that some man is.

  26. #26 The Backpacker
    March 5, 2009

    All I can say is wtf. I am going to have to remeber this next time someone tells me that I have to respect their beliefs.

    If global warming does not finish us off the catholics will for sure.

  27. #27 Anders
    March 5, 2009

    Yes rage.. and utter sadness… and hopelessness…and grief… and a feeling that no matter what, this shit is going to reign supreme among these people and there children, and there and so on, over decades to come with no sulution in sight… Rage? No, resignation maybe, sadness, for sure. These men are evil to the boone, they benifit so much and have so little regard for peoples happiness and joy in life, as do of course the bible, in which they teach children and adults to belive in.

    bit drunk bit Swedish, bit sad

  28. #28 BennyBlanco
    March 5, 2009

    I disagree about the use of the word alleged. They use it to say she’s an alleged rape victim – this is wrong. She’s nine years old and clearly a rape victim.

    They could use the word alleged about the suspected rapist, and that would be fine. But there can’t be a question that the girl is a rape victim

  29. #29 6StringTheory
    March 5, 2009

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/7926694.stm

    Same story with a few more details…

  30. #30 zer0
    March 5, 2009

    I was about to say the same thing Benny. How does a 9 year old come to be pregnant with twins, and the distinction between whether it being rape or not is what’s in question?

  31. #31 blf
    March 5, 2009

    The BBC’s report contains some more appalling details:

    Police believe that the girl at the centre of the case had been sexually abused by her step-father since she was six years old.

    ?

    The fact that she was pregnant with twins was only discovered after she was taken to hospital in Pernambuco complaining of stomach pains.

    ?

    He is also suspected of abusing the girl’s physically handicapped older sister who is now 14.

    ?

    The Archbishop of Olinda and Recife, Jose Cardoso Sobrinho, told Brazil’s TV Globo that the law of God was above any human law.

  32. #32 Brownian
    March 5, 2009

    Will you guys stop posting this kind of extremist shit as if it’s representative of religious people in general?

    Most Catholics would never act like these assholes; they’re happy to stop at simply supporting these assholes and protecting them from criticism.

  33. #33 Knockgoats
    March 5, 2009

    SC, OM,

    Oh of course – you’re quite right. What was I thinking? How unphilosophical of me, letting mere revulsion at inhuman cruelty influence my judgement, when it’s obvious that, since she’s female, the final cause of this girl is her function as a baby-making machine.

  34. #34 JustaTech
    March 5, 2009

    And there’s that wooden spoon impulse again. Get that child a visa(to anywhere civilized) and major therapy, stat!

    Bastards. No, self-righteous dicks, with all possible gender/sexual connotations. Life in jail for the rapist, and a lifetime of nightmares for those damn priests!

  35. #35 AnthonyK
    March 5, 2009

    It’s probably even more morally disgusting than it seems. The church, presumably, only protested after the abortion had happened. That way, they get the smug satisfaction of keeping up their anti-abortion stance, while in no way preventing an all-too necessary operation.
    PS, all you hard-core PZ fans might like to check out my comment on the “Atheists now rule most of the world” thread, but sssssh! keep it between ourselves ‘K?

  36. #36 Matt
    March 5, 2009

    Even if she did survive the pregnancy, what the hell does the church think will happen after that? I mean, even if she’s still breathing, having children to care for from the time you’re nine rules out the possibility of a decent life.

    I suppose, though, that if the point of life IS suffering, then this all makes sense in Catholic-world. Yeah, I know, it sounds confusing. Here, I’ll let Mother Teresa explain it:

    Suffering has to come because if you look at the cross, he has got his head bending down?he wants to kiss you?and he has both hands open wide?he wants to embrace you. He has his heart opened wide to receive you. Then when you feel miserable inside, look at the cross and you will know what is happening. Suffering, pain, sorrow, humiliation, feelings of loneliness, are nothing but the kiss of Jesus, a sign that you have come so close that he can kiss you. Do you understand, brothers, sisters, or whoever you may be? Suffering, pain, humiliation?this is the kiss of Jesus. At times you come so close to Jesus on the cross that he can kiss you. I once told this to a lady who was suffering very much. She answered, ‘Tell Jesus not to kiss me?to stop kissing me.’ That suffering has to come that came in the life of Our Lady, that came in the life of Jesus?it has to come in our life also. Only never put on a long face. Suffering is gift from God. It is between you and Jesus alone inside?.

    So, if the little girl doesn’t bring two more people into the world at her own expense, we’ll be short by two or even three potential sufferers. And that’s bad. See? It makes perfect sense.

  37. #37 Scott
    March 5, 2009

    Subhead, hell. The main headline is pretty damn enraging.

    “Alleged rape victim” at nine years old. Somebody get me my Staff of Wounding.

  38. #38 Pablo
    March 5, 2009

    I disagree. If the father is a 10 year old, it would not be considered rape (neither is able to consent).

  39. #39 Jim B
    March 5, 2009

    Knockgoats #22 said:

    “Can anyone think of anything in the world that has, over the centuries, been more consistently evil than the Roman Catholic hierarchy?”

    This is a hysterical statement.

    There are many more intensely evil things (Edi Amin, Hitler, Soviet leadership), but few institutions (evil or not) have the staying power of the Catholic church.

  40. #40 blf
    March 5, 2009

    Anthony, the news stories are strongly indicating dog’s official holey rapists did try to stop the abortion before it was carried out. For instance, from the BBC’s report, ?The Catholic Church tried to intervene to prevent the abortion going ahead but the procedure was carried out on Wednesday.?

    The one bit of good-sounding news is at the end of that report, ?While the action of the Church in opposing an abortion for a young rape victim is not unprecedented, it has attracted criticism from women’s rights groups in Brazil.?

  41. #41 Anders
    March 5, 2009

    @39, your examples run for last century.. and they are not even close to the pain that religion causes every day.. moron.

  42. #42 Sarniaskeptic
    March 5, 2009

    Holy Fuck! This is my opportunity – I really want to be taken off the Catholic register. Can I add my name to the list of people who helped her with the abortion? I really want to be ex-communicated!

  43. #43 Andyo
    March 5, 2009

    Ernesto García #20

    That’s very interesting what they’re doing in Argentina. I had read a bit about formal apostasy because the catholics were counting the baptized heads kept in their books as statistics, but I only read it about Spain (or was it Germany?). I guess it’s a global thing. I wonder if I should do that as a Peruvian born? I never thought it worth my time, but if there was a campaign over there I would surely sign in. Unfortunately I don’t live there anymore.

  44. #44 Menyambal
    March 5, 2009

    Sad, sick and twisted. The poor girl.

    This makes me wish there was a god, so he could smite a few asses. Any bets on the religion of the rapist?

    Do the defense-of-marriage people not listen to themselves? What is the damn point of a man working hard to raise a few children, if the church makes it possible to instead have a sick hobby and a thousand children?

    Something blasphemous about God and the Virgin Mary.

  45. #45 Mike in Ontario, NY
    March 5, 2009

    Brownian,
    Don’t like the blog? Don’t read it anymore.
    ALL religion leads to exactly this type of extremism. Just because all religious people aren’t that extreme will never change the fact that following scripture (any scripture) to it’s logical, literal end will always end in evil.
    And a big, mighty FU to the Pope, the RCC, and anyone who won’t come out of the dark ages.

  46. #46 Ross Miles
    March 5, 2009

    The stepfather has been accused and is currently in jail.
    In addition:
    ? Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in northeastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a Caesarean section. ?It?s the law of God: Do not kill,? he said in comments reported by the newspaper O Globo?
    http://www.nytimes.com/2009/03/05/world/americas/05briefs-9YEAROLDSABO_BRF.html?ref=world
    Therefore, laying blame on a mere church seems misdirected, when one can move one step up to the head guy, who without a doubt, authorized rape, so the law could be obeyed. Not sure where this lawyer was for ethics class in law school.

  47. #47 Cary
    March 5, 2009

    To any Catholics reading this:

    This is your church. This is the evil that you support. Raping boys and attempting to force young rape victims to carry their rape-children to term no matter the cost to the victim’s health. These unfortunately are not isolated incidents.

    There’s no exception, this isn’t a “different” Catholic church than the one you visit on Sunday. It is one and the same.

    I’m just glad sensible people won here.

  48. #48 Spyderkl
    March 5, 2009

    SC, OM #24: I’d think that was funnier if I wasn’t so pissed about a pregnant 9-year-old being an “alleged rape victim”.

    Any religion that would not only not protect a rapist, but condemn somebody trying to help a victim deserves to be mocked mercilessly. Sorry – if you’re a rape apologist, you don’t get any respect anymore.

  49. #49 Anders
    March 5, 2009

    MiO: Hear hear!

  50. #50 NoAstronomer
    March 5, 2009

    Not much to add to the disgust already voiced except to point out that apparently even in Brazil the catholic church needs lawyers.

    Why is that?

  51. #51 Tangent
    March 5, 2009

    Fatima Maia, director of the public university hospital where the abortion was performed, said the 15-week-old pregnancy posed a serious risk to the 80-pound girl. “She is very small. Her uterus doesn’t have the ability to hold one, let alone two children,” Maia told the Jornal do Brasil newspaper. But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in northeastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a cesarean section.

    Ridiculous, though I suppose as per catholic thinking, it probably would have been in her best interest to die due to complications and go to heaven right?

  52. #52 Ouchimoo
    March 5, 2009

    holy fuck. *not a fucking pun* Just utter disbelief. I read over 30 comments before I was finally able to close my gaped mouth.

  53. #53 Matt
    March 5, 2009

    Brownian,
    Don’t like the blog? Don’t read it anymore.

    I think you’ve misunderstood the tone of his text.
    The second line makes it fairly clear that he is joking.

  54. #54 Josh
    March 5, 2009

    Those of you pissing about Brownian’s comment might want to read it a little closer.

  55. #55 JamesR
    March 5, 2009

    The Bishop Excommunicates the mother and the medics who did this.
    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/29531755/

    I didn’t read ANY comment the bichop made about the slimy fuck who did this to the young girl. I guess he’s still in protect the perpetrator mode. Afterall if he criticizes the man who did this then he would have to criticize his own priests for commiting such acts on children. Proof yet again. “Religion Poisons Everything.

  56. #56 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    March 5, 2009

    Hey Fuck you Brownian.
    How dare you criticize us for criticizing catholics for being critical of a critical situa…

    wait where was I

  57. #57 AnthonyK
    March 5, 2009

    Ok, blf, but I’m not sure if that makes it better or worse. About a year ago there was a similarly horrible story from err..Nicaragua, where the new government has banned, and crimalised abortion. The case was of a poor mother of 3 young children who had an ectopic pregnancy. Going to hospital to have this treated, she found that the staff refused to treat her because they believed they could be prosecuted for “aborting” a pregnancy.
    The woman died, in agony, a few days later.
    God eh? What a man. Men eh? What men.

  58. #58 spurge
    March 5, 2009

    Would they excommunicate the rapist if he had used a condom?

  59. #59 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 5, 2009

    Brownian, OM, goes for humor on occasion. Knowing him I knew he had his tongue well in his cheek.

  60. #60 ProtoK
    March 5, 2009

    Endor wrote, Obviously, however, when the victim is 9 years old and pregnant – both things making is abundantly clear that he is guilty beyond a doubt –

    It’s abundantly clear that the girl has been raped but not by whom. That’s the frigging point. (Her stepfather is identified in the lede, so they have to say ‘alleged.’

  61. #61 blf
    March 5, 2009

    Those of you pissing about Brownian’s comment might want to read it a little closer.

    Indeed. And also reflect on the fact Brownian has an OM. That doesn’t he can’t/won’t say something stupid, but he’s not known for it, and didn’t this time. Do read it, again. Closely.

  62. #62 J
    March 5, 2009

    *Will you guys stop posting this kind of extremist shit as if it’s representative of religious people in general?

    Most Catholics would never act like these assholes; they’re happy to stop at simply supporting these assholes and protecting them from criticism.*

    No. Fail. Weak. All religion is evil.

  63. #63 blueelm
    March 5, 2009

    This makes me absolutely sick. I wanted to say something smarter than that, but I’m afraid I might puke on my keyboard.

  64. #64 spurge
    March 5, 2009

    No ProtoK they most certainly do not.

    She was not allegedly raped.

    The step father allegedly did it.

    Big fucking difference.

  65. #65 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “It’s abundantly clear that the girl has been raped but not by whom. That’s the frigging point.”

    Which was my “frigging” point as well. She’s not an ALLEGED victim. She. was. raped.

    I mean “he” as in the rapist, not “he” as in the accused. Thank goodness at least two other commenters said it more clearly.

  66. #66 Mike in Ontario, NY
    March 5, 2009

    With sincere apologies to Brownian, my rage clouded my ability to detect any irony at the moment. I know you’re a staid, longtime pharyngulite and I shoulda known better. Grrrrrr! I’m gonna go melt the bishops from my chessboard in the woodstove when I get home.

  67. #67 ProtoK
    March 5, 2009

    Knocks Goats wrote, Nonsense. That she is a rape victim is absolutely clear – to suppose that a nine-year-old can validly consent to sex is ludicrous. That does not imply that the accused is guilty – just that some man is.

    You idiot, the stepfather is named as the alleged rapist in the article. The editor who wrote the headline (and the reporter who wrote the piece) HAD to say ‘alleged.’

  68. #68 Daniel Korostyshevsky
    March 5, 2009

    How much more ridiculous does the church have to appear in order for people to stop following their nonsense! The church should excommunicate them! Then maybe rationality will prevail more often.

  69. #69 Knockgoats
    March 5, 2009

    “Can anyone think of anything in the world that has, over the centuries, been more consistently evil than the Roman Catholic hierarchy?”

    This is a hysterical statement.
    – Jim B.

    Problems reading, Jim? It wasn’t a statement, but a question, and I note that you couldn’t come up with any suggestions. Many religious institutions, states, universities, professional bodies, royal and aristocratic families, even commercial companies go back centuries.

    By the way, who’s “Edi Amin”?

  70. #70 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “The editor who wrote the headline (and the reporter who wrote the piece) HAD to say ‘alleged.’”

    okay, maybe third time’s a charm.

    Saying she was “allegedly” raped is demonstrably false.
    She. was. raped.
    The stepfather allegedly did it.

  71. #71 ProtoK
    March 5, 2009

    Endor: Jesus Christ you are stupid!

  72. #72 The Rev
    March 5, 2009

    Many have probably already said this, and I’m sure I just missed the news headline on the major outlets, but when exactly is the Catholic Church going to excommunicate the rapist? I’m sure they’ve already put the paperwork together and got the ball rolling…

  73. #73 AnthonyK
    March 5, 2009

    Surely there was outrage in Brazil? Surely? Anyone know the news media reaction there?

  74. #74 SLW13
    March 5, 2009

    I’ve been listening to the live stream of the Prop 8 oral arguments from the Cal Supreme Court this morning. Between Ken Starr’s fathead arguments and this story, my brain is broken.

  75. #75 trumpeter
    March 5, 2009

    I sadly assume that poor child continues to sustain abuse. She was not excommunicated and therefore is still under the watchful care of the Catholic church. What horrible guilt will they inflict on this innocent? I can only imagine. Shocking doesn’t suffice. Horrific comes closer to the mark.

  76. #76 Danio
    March 5, 2009

    The fact that anyone’s reaction to a nine year old girl pregnant with twins by her habitually molesting (and I’m going out on a limb here and predict that he’s a devout Catholic) stepfather could possibly be anything other than untempered rage, shock, sorrow, and compassion is unconscionable. This is going to haunt me for a while.

  77. #77 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    March 5, 2009

    Endor: Jesus Christ you are stupid!

    No I don’t think so.

    The girl is pregnant. She is 9 years old. She was raped. No two was around it. Not allegedly raped, raped.

    The step father allegedly raped her.

    Referring to her as allegedly raped is wrong.

  78. #78 blueelm
    March 5, 2009

    The editor who wrote the headline (and the reporter who wrote the piece) HAD to say ‘alleged.’

    That is not how it works. She is not an alleged victim, he is an alleged criminal. The reporter is doing it wrong.

    How does this sound: Steve J, alleged mugging victim, is recovering from the injuries sustained from the attack.

    If your house is broken and things are stolen you are not an alleged victim of theft. If you are robbed you are not an alleged robbery victim. The person arrested is an alleged theft.

    THERE IS A HUGE DIFFERENCE?

  79. #79 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “Endor: Jesus Christ you are stupid!”

    Poor baby. It’s easier to fling around insults than admit you just didn’t think it through.

  80. #80 Pablo
    March 5, 2009

    Saying she was “allegedly” raped is demonstrably false.
    She. was. raped.

    And I say it again, not necessarily. If the father is a 10 year old, it would not be rape (he would no more be a rapist than she would).

  81. #81 blueelm
    March 5, 2009

    * theif. I’m sorry. The stupid is infectious. My grammar needs to be quarantined.

  82. #82 blf
    March 5, 2009

    What the heading should have said is Raped nine year aborts twins, stepfather suspected of being the rapist. Get it now, Proto? The rape of the girl is an obvious fact. That the stepfather did it is to be proven; the stepfather is the suspect, that is, the alleged rapist.

  83. #83 Bill Dauphin
    March 5, 2009

    ProtoK:

    …the stepfather is named as the alleged rapist in the article. The editor who wrote the headline (and the reporter who wrote the piece) HAD to say ‘alleged.’

    No. The editor/reporter HAD to say “alleged rapist,” but not “alleged rape victim.” There’s nothing “alleged” about her victimhood, as several posters have (somewhat overpatiently, IMHO) already made clear. The specific wording of the headline implicitly suggests the possibility that a pregnant 9-year-old might not have been raped; that is not only stupid, it’s an additional violence perpetrated on this already-brutalized child.

  84. #84 www.10ch.org
    March 5, 2009

    This is what the Catholic church represents. It is perhaps time to inform all Catholics of this, who may not be aware of such things. For example, I am sure that there are many Catholics in Spain, New England (of the United States), Italy, and so on, and in those places, there are many “casual Catholics” who do not take Catholicism seriously. Perhaps they would stop being casual Catholics if they knew that Catholicism is actually serious business.

  85. #85 Brownian
    March 5, 2009

    I understand everybody’s frustration, but I urge all Catholics to remember that the money they slip in the collection plate on Sundays only goes to buy yarn for the Little Ol’ Church Ladies Knitting Bee, and in no way supports these archdioceses.

    They’ve still got plenty of money from the last time they raped South America.

  86. #86 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “And I say it again, not necessarily. If the father is a 10 year old, it would not be rape (he would no more be a rapist than she would).”

    Not necessarily. You seem to be assuming that a 10 year old boy couldn’t be a rapist. There have been rapists and sexual predators who are children. Ever read The Gift of Fear.

  87. #87 Menyambal
    March 5, 2009

    Hey! I just realized why the Catholic Church is so upset about this. Think about it, guys . . .

    Twins . . .

    Sons of a pedophile rapist . . .

    Carried by a child . . .

    From their mother’s womb untimely ripped . . .

    Taken away to be raised by nuns and priests . . .

    .

    .

    .

    The Antichrist and the Last Pope!

  88. #88 SC, OM
    March 5, 2009

    SC, OM #24: I’d think that was funnier if I wasn’t so pissed about a pregnant 9-year-old being an “alleged rape victim”.

    Yes, it was dark humor, and not so much intended for “our” amusement, but rather aimed at the Erics of the world who smugly believe their dangerously immoral delusionary perspective to be a superior morality.

  89. #89 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “who are children”

    Yeah, I meant “who were children” at the time they committed the crime.

  90. #90 Michelle
    March 5, 2009

    …I just can’t say anything to this. There’s no words coming to my mouth beyond “WHAT THE FUCK”.

    I can’t even go ahead and make up redundant arguments about why they are so wrong. This is beyond my rational human mind.

  91. #91 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    March 5, 2009

    And I say it again, not necessarily. If the father is a 10 year old, it would not be rape (he would no more be a rapist than she would).

    Oh really. Not 10 years old but 12.

    So yes, a 10 year old can be a rapist just like a 10 year old can be a murderer.

    Now again, I’m saying this not knowing what the Brazilian law has to say about it.

  92. #92 Wouter J
    March 5, 2009

    Reminds me of the story of Lot for some mysterious reason.

  93. #93 Sastra
    March 5, 2009

    They are making no distinction between fetuses and infants who are already born. Right there, is the problem — the discontinuous mind.

    Imagine if the 9 year old girl had given birth to twins, and the doctors had decided to strangle the infants as they lay sleeping in their cribs. They would be sentenced to death because the mother does not want them, and they were the outcome of a rape. Clearly, one could make an argument that, in a culture that is stable, this is morally wrong — they can and should be placed in another home. Otherwise, the babies are to all intents and purposes being ‘punished.’

    That’s how the Catholics are framing the issue. They are that simple, and that naive. In the fantasy world inside their heads, a 15 week old fetus is a miniature little person, complete with thoughts and feelings — they only hope to one day be in a family where they can learn to love Jesus. A c-section on a 9 year old girl is a minor operation, and the pregnancy itself a minor inconvenience. They can mentally substitute the situation above, as equivalent to the one that actually was.

    How can they do that? Welcome to Catholic Fantasy World, where God has told you all this as Truth, and is testing you to see if you trust Him.

    Religious beliefs can be toxic.

  94. #94 Zar
    March 5, 2009

    Wait, the fundies are using the “thou shalt not kill” excuse? But wouldn’t forcing the kid to bring the fetuses to term kill her?

    Ow my brain!

    Goddamn. That poor kid. Oh my goodness that poor girl.

    Does this bishop have an email address? What a shit.

  95. #95 Anders
    March 5, 2009

    Disclaimer. I’m writing in anger and discust: Just saying: I’m lucky that I’m not a 9 year old litttle girl that was raped, got pregnant, had to endure surgery for the sake of my 9 year old life.. and wait for it … have the loving christian church to stand by me.

    Psychologist as I am, working with children as I do every day, ask me what religion does for young people. FUCK THEM, because they know damn well what they do. We are flooded with theese wonderful, smart, funny, kreative and fine youths. Why are they sad, filled with anxiety, feeling “dirty”. Well.. your a smart bunch. The frustration of beeing told that “we’re going to send her/him to bible school” is killing me. I’m not optimistic, even though I’m a Swede living in Norway….

  96. #96 blf
    March 5, 2009

    Pablo, perhaps true, except the suspect is clearly an adult, not ten years old. Even if the suspect wasn’t known, most people would still assert she was obviously raped (in, at the minimum, being unable to give informed consent)?which is an assertion to be corrected as appropriate if the suspect is later found and is ten years old. Pedantically, you may be correct, but it doesn’t seem to apply in this case, and rarely applies in most other cases.

  97. #97 Carlie
    March 5, 2009

    I’m glad others have spoken up about this.
    She isn’t an alleged rape victim. She is a rape victim. The media seem to have a terrible time using the word “rape” even in cases where it is clear – AOL the other day referred to a “toddler sex case” involving a 2 year old. No, that would be a toddler RAPE case. Sheesh. Use the right words. It’s dancing around them like this that contribute to victim-shaming and to giving rapists a slap on the wrist rather than actual punishment.

  98. #98 Erp
    March 5, 2009

    After a similar case in Nicaragua in 2003 the church managed to get the law forbidding abortion amended so as to ban allowing exceptions even for the mother’s life.

    They will probably try the same in Brazil.

  99. #99 The Rev
    March 5, 2009

    FYI: Baseline male fertility is not achieved until about 13 years of age typically. Full fertility is not achieved until 16 or older.

    Again, these are generalizations. Just sayin’. The odds of a 9 year old getting impregnated by a 10 year old are very, very, very low.

  100. #100 Qwerty
    March 5, 2009

    Newspapers and the media in general have to say “alleged” because of libel laws. If you accuse someone of doing something and they prove you were wrong; then, a court may find the media outlet libel for damages.

  101. #101 blueelm
    March 5, 2009

    “And I say it again, not necessarily. If the father is a 10 year old, it would not be rape (he would no more be a rapist than she would).”

    Just because other child would simply not be able to stand trial as a criminal, does not change the consent or no consent question. You are implying that if the the father was another child then it was consensual? The other child would not likely not stand trial, but that would actually depend on the circumstance. There are such things as violent young children.

  102. #102 Jeffery Keown
    March 5, 2009

    I know we’re supposed to be heartless, unfeeling, godless heathen automatons, but I just want to cry at this utter failure of a religion and a culture that lets this sort of thing go on. I’m serious… I may actually cry.

  103. #103 Dianne
    March 5, 2009

    From the BBC article:

    The excommunication applies to the child’s mother and the doctors involved in the procedure.

    It will not, apparently, include the man who raped her. Any other questions about why so many of us consider religion immoral?

  104. #104 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    March 5, 2009

    Newspapers and the media in general have to say “alleged” because of libel laws. If you accuse someone of doing something and they prove you were wrong; then, a court may find the media outlet libel for damages.

    I think you are missing the point.

    The fact that a 9 year old is pregnant means she was raped. A 9 year old can not give consent.

    So there is no way for her to be pregnant via intercourse (lets not even get into artificial means that’s just being picky) and it not be rape. Calling her an alleged rape victim is incorrect. She is a rape victim.

    Now the step father is 100% an alleged rapist until proven guilty.

    Ok I’m just repeating myself an others.

  105. #105 Joe The Cracker
    March 5, 2009

    Indeed, those who helped the little girl would be better off outside this criminal organization – the Roman Catholic Church.

  106. #106 CJO
    March 5, 2009

    Newspapers and the media in general have to say “alleged” because of libel laws.

    They have to say, of a suspect, that he or she is “an alleged criminal.” They do not have to say, of a victim, when a crime has, by definition, been committed, that he or she is “an alleged victim.”

    Why are people having trouble with this glaringly obvious distinction?

  107. #107 Robert
    March 5, 2009

    The right word to use is “alleged” – the matter is still before the courts.

    Children as young as 9 can be sexually active, by choice even. If the father is her step-father, it could still be consensual – this would still be statutory rape, but a very different category of abuse from straight child sex abuse.

    Until the courts actually rule, the only responsible act is to describe the girl as being allegedly raped. This is as important as describing the girl’s step-father as the alleged rapist – after all, if you state definitively that there was a crime, then there has to be a criminal.

    All that aside – and yes, I believe that the girl was raped by her step-father – the priest is still an idiot who is putting the health and safety of an abused girl below the moral preachings of a discredited and intolerant faith.

  108. #108 blf
    March 5, 2009

    Excommunication is a reward for Doing The Right Thing?. So it’s no surprise the alleged rapist apparently isn’t being ?threatened? whilst the doctors and mother are.

  109. #109 Nanahuatzin
    March 5, 2009

    We had similar cases in Mexico.

    rencently a 13 years old girl who work as a maid en the town of Galeana, Nuevo León, in Mexico, was raped.

    In some parts of mexico, there still the custom of send young girls from poor rural towns to the cities to work as maids. Since this is not legal, they have little protection.) She was raped by the boy friend of the woman who took her to the city. She was afraid so decided to return to her town.

    The mexican law states that rape victims have to be inform that they have right to use the emergency anticonception. And since 1939, rape women have right to ask for abortion up to 6 months.

    But nor authorities, nor the Dr who atend her told her of her family. So she forced to give birth. The raper is still free.

    Another case similar courred in 1997, when another 13 girl, Paulina, was denied of her right to abortion by the authorities, following the advice of the “prolife” group of Mexico.

    In this case, the parents knew she had right to abortion, but the authorities refused to comply, instead they offered the services of a catholic priest.

    Almost 10 years later. While laws has been make to prevent this, the authorities have not been punished..

    Today abotion is legal in Mexico city… where by the way, all the lawmakers has been “excomulgados” by the Catholic church… but in the states of the north, there are the more conservative states.

    http://www.womensenews.org/article.cfm/dyn/aid/839/context/archive

  110. #110 Carlie
    March 5, 2009

    Oh, and Pablo, you fucking idiot. Let’s say the rapist was a ten year old. Ok, legally he didn’t commit rape. But she still had a rape committed against her. If he had killed her, even though he couldn’t be tried for murder, she would still be a murder victim. The legal standing of the perpetrator doesn’t affect the crime itself at all. I do not understand why you’re trying so hard to be a rape apologist.

  111. #111 Paulino
    March 5, 2009

    You guys have no idea the extent of the catholic church influence in this and other public matters here in Brazil. Just so you get an idea, there are crosses hanging from the walls of both parliament houses, the supreme court, and quite a few at the presidential palace. Our capital, Brasilia, was built in the late 50′s at an amazing cost, and it included a catholic cathedral…

  112. #112 Joe The Cracker
    March 5, 2009

    Hey blf … that’s a GREAT line!

    “Excommunication is a reward for Doing The Right Thing”.

  113. #113 Nanahuatzin
    March 5, 2009

    ops sorry… it is not 6 months., but 3 months…

  114. #114 Kobra
    March 5, 2009

    I wonder what the Catholic League has to say about this. *rolls eyes*

  115. #115 CJO
    March 5, 2009

    Children as young as 9 can be sexually active, by choice even. If the father is her step-father, it could still be consensual – this would still be statutory rape, but a very different category of abuse from straight child sex abuse.

    You seem to be deeply confused about the definition of “consensual.” The very crime you refer to, statutory rape, is a function of the law’s recognition that children below a certain age cannot be considered to have legally consented to sex, no matter what they may have said or done.

  116. #116 Spiro Keat
    March 5, 2009

    We have this disgusting, horrific story and you guys are bitching about “allegedly raped”

    Fuck’s Sake!

  117. #117 llewelly
    March 5, 2009

    ProtoK | March 5, 2009 2:29 PM:

    MSNBC has to use the term ‘alleged’ because someone has been charged with a crime and he is, presumably even in Brazil, innocent until proven guilty.

    That rule is for applying the word to the perpetrator. Facing up to the fact that a pregnant nine-year-old was raped does not equal assuming any particular individual was guilty. Applying ‘alleged’ to the victim is stupidity.

  118. #118 marty
    March 5, 2009

    Punishment has been swiftly dealt to this sinful family and their evil medical staff:

    “Brazil Church Excommunicates Mom, Doctors After Raped 9-Year-Old Has Abortion”

    http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,505183,00.html

  119. #119 Pablo
    March 5, 2009

    FYI: Baseline male fertility is not achieved until about 13 years of age typically. Full fertility is not achieved until 16 or older.

    Yeah, but what is baseline female fertility? Certainly not 9, either. I thought this same thing, that 10 years old is pretty young for male sexual maturity, but then again, we are talking about a 9 year old girl, so things can happen.

    If it were a 10 year old (not suggesting it was), then he was as much raped as she was.

  120. #120 Jonathan Rothwell
    March 5, 2009

    I love this bit:

    It’s the law of God: Do not kill.

    Just like god didn’t kill the people of Jericho, Sodom, Gomorrah, and the entire earth before the Flood?oh, whoops…

  121. #121 Jason
    March 5, 2009

    I sent this to my local archbishop:

    I was just reading about the excommunication of the family and doctors in Brazil trying to treat the 9 year old rape victim who had become pregnant far too young to healthily carry a child (twins, no less).

    While no longer a practicing Catholic, I do not wish to be in any way affiliated with your madness. I was wondering if there were any way I might go about being excommunicated as well, as my way of showing support for the poor family the catholic church chooses to mindlessly torment. I am an atheist, and will cheerfully blaspheme to any extent necessary if that will aid in securing your assistanc ein this matter. Regards, Jason

  122. #122 Ragutis
    March 5, 2009

    Sick fucks.

    It’s probably been close to 15 years since I considered myself anything resembling “Catholic”, and I’m still absolutely disgusted that I ever had ties to an evil, deranged, inhuman organization like that. This is your Church, Catholics. This is what you support by your membership and tithing. This is what you condone by your attendance and participation. I don’t care what a nice or funny guy your pastor is, how much charity work your parish youth group does. Each time you cross that threshold, dip your fingers into the stoup, and make the sign of the cross, you are reaffirming your devotion to this vile machine of oppression and abuse. If you have a shred of humanity or any real concept of morality, leave that abomination or stand up and fucking change it!

  123. #123 AnthonyK
    March 5, 2009

    This does make me want to go out and punch, or at least yell at, the next anti-abortion campaigner I see.
    Will this get wipespread publicity in the US?

  124. #124 steve
    March 5, 2009

    Muhammad married Aisha when she was 6 years old and the “marriage” was consummated (euphemism for pedophilia) when she was 9 years old.

    Who says Herr Ratzinger is toning down the ecumenicalism ?

  125. #125 Anders
    March 5, 2009

    Ragutis: + 1

  126. #126 The Rev
    March 5, 2009

    Ragutis wins the thread IMHO!

  127. #127 Hipstermama
    March 5, 2009

    As someone who has grown up Catholic, who suffered a major mental illness b/c of said teachings, I have finally realized the problem was not with me not fitting in but rather the illogical notions they spoon feed you in church.
    Reading this story, thnx PZ, has only strengthened my resolve that religion was not good for my own mental health and is not for anyone else as well. This poor girl will continue to live and think that she did something wrong! It is so sad, and she is just another victim of the church!

  128. #128 Kel
    March 5, 2009

    Sickening beyond words. So many people have their priorities wrong, but this is what happens when one focuses on a particular sin (in this case abortion) instead of trying to improve human behaviour overall.

  129. #129 Vronvron
    March 5, 2009

    Jason @121

    What a good idea. I have been reading through the comments and thinking that expressing our outrage on this blog is not going to change anything. Expressing outrage to the ruling members of the RCC church may also not change anything, but I am going to try. First I am going to send a an email to a friend who is also a canon lawyer and ask him WTF. The RCC cannot be allowed to weasel out of this the way they did with Williamson.

  130. #130 JimNorth
    March 5, 2009

    Since my Portugese is non-existant, I found the address for the archbishop of the archdiocese of Olinda and Recife. I haven’t found the lawyer’s address yet.

    ARCEBISPO METROPOLITANO
    DOM JOSÉ CARDOSO SOBRINHO, O.CARM.
    Residência:
    Av. Rui Barbosa, 409 – Graças
    CEP.: 52011-040 Recife – PE – Brasil
    Tel.: (81) 3231-6348 / 3222-6536 Fax: (81) 3421-3158
    E-mail: aor@hotlink.com.br

  131. #131 tony
    March 5, 2009

    For once FoxNews is quoteworthy:

    Their headline is correct: “Brazil Church Excommunicates Mom, Doctors After Raped 9-Year-Old Has Abortion”

    they also mention another case – in many ways worse, because the poor child is going to be forced to be a mother.

    A similar case in southern Brazil surfaced Thursday. Authorities in Rio Grande do Sul state told the O Globo newspaper that an 11-year-old girl allegedly raped by her stepfather is seven months pregnant.

    The 51-year-old stepfather has been in jail since January while the girl is in a hospital for high risk pregnancies and apparently will not have an abortion.

    When you live in a theocratic society, this is what you can expect.

  132. #132 blf
    March 5, 2009

    Marty, that’s the faux news site. I’ll believe the mother and doctors been rewarded when a real and reliable site reports it, such as The Grauniad or Reuters or the BBC or quite a few others. But not faux.

    And in any case, after the very probably wrong headline (what is it with this crime and shite headlines?!), faux says ?A Roman Catholic archbishop says the abortion of twins carried by a 9-year-old girl who allegedly was raped by her stepfather means excommunication for the girl’s mother and her doctors.? That seems to fit with the reliable sites: They’ve been ?threatened? with a reward but have not actually being rewarded (yet).

  133. #133 astrosmash
    March 5, 2009

    Pretty much shores up the idea that “moderates” tacitly give cover to these nut-thugs. If peoople gave up religion alltogether…no where to run…nowhere to hide. These f#@$ks would be in jail.

  134. #134 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “If it were a 10 year old (not suggesting it was), then he was as much raped as she was.”

    You’re still assuming that a 10 year old boy couldn’t be a rapist. This is not true. DeBecker gives several examples of child rapists in The Gift of Fear

    ________

    “Until the courts actually rule, the only responsible act is to describe the girl as being allegedly raped.”

    Are you saying that statutory rape is different? It’s still a crime. it’s still rape, regardless of whatever fucked up belief would lead anyone to believe a nine year old might consent to sex (as if a nine year old has the mental capacity and maturity to consent to sex, ffs).

    Statutory rape is still rape. She would still be not be an “alleged” victim.

  135. #135 Marc Abian
    March 5, 2009

    I actually would use alledged. I can clearly see it was rape (except in the case of consensual underage sex), but if they don’t use the word alledged people will get confused and think it was proven that the step-father was the rapist. People are even getting confused about this on Pharyngula, so it’s likely some would in Brazil too.

  136. #136 Bobber
    March 5, 2009

    Another disturbing aspect of this situation is that those who oppose the abortion will claim they are doing so not only because Their Man In A Fancy Dress tells them so, but because they are compassionate – that is, they care about defending the lives of innocent children – conveniently forgetting the 9-year old girl whose life they would be willing to risk for the sake of a pair of yet-to-be-developed human beings. And they’ll say that, in this case, without the barest hint of irony.

  137. #137 Greg
    March 5, 2009

    Hopefuly the silver lining in this cloud will be the reaction of the Brazilian people. Brazil is a deeply religious country and such foot-shooting by the church, whilst not exactly welcome, may only serve to hasten their demise.

    In regard to Brownian´s comment, some folks need to learn the difference between sarcasm and irony. This was not irony, this was more of a brassy or a bronzy….
    Ah! but what was that?

  138. #138 Raynfala
    March 5, 2009

    Nanahuatzin Author Profile Page | March 5, 2009 3:45 PM

    We had similar cases in Mexico.
    rencently a 13 years old girl who work as a maid en the town of Galeana, Nuevo León, in Mexico, was raped.

    Don’t you mean “…was allegedly raped”?

    *ducks*

  139. #139 Kemist
    March 5, 2009

    A c-section on a 9 year old girl is a minor operation, and the pregnancy itself a minor inconvenience.

    I have a rule of thumb when discussing abortion with forced-birth proponents:

    When someone refers to pregnancy and its associated risks (even in a normal, healthy adult mother) in humans as a “minor inconvenience”, I definitely know I’m speaking to an ignorant, and generally an irretrievable idiot.

  140. #140 Rob
    March 5, 2009

    So… they excommunicated or plan to do it to the mother, doctors, etc… I’m just curious… Are they excommunicating the fucked up sicko father? Or is that the type of followers the church keeps?

  141. #141 Drosera
    March 5, 2009

    Those bishops, archdeacons or whatever title these evil parasites have been adorned with, are worse than the rapist. Of course the latter will not be excommunicated, unlike the doctors who saved the poor girl?s live. The swine who raped the girl will just have to say three hail Maries after confession and everything will be fine. He is after all probably a good Catholic, as he has amply demonstrated.

  142. #142 Danio
    March 5, 2009

    We have this disgusting, horrific story and you guys are bitching about “allegedly raped”

    I can see how this would seem needlessly pedantic, but for me it exemplifies the astounding and widespread lack of compassion for this child. The circumspect, ass-covering tone of the coverage here is indistinguishable from that which might befit a case involving a 35 year old prostitute. I find this deeply repugnant.

    How many times have we heard religious apologists claim that religion is too important to abandon because it provides comfort and succor to those in need? Where is the comfort for this child? She has been betrayed not only by her family and by her body, but by the system that is supposedly validated by its potential to give support. No comfort here, only condemnation. It’s heartbreaking.

    Oh, and Robert (@107)? You’re a fuckwit.

  143. #143 JakeSchmitz
    March 5, 2009

    I wish I could fly to Brazil, give the little girl a hug, give her mom a hug, and then hug each person – doctors, nurses, others – who helped limit her suffering.

  144. #144 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “but if they don’t use the word alledged people will get confused and think it was proven that the step-father was the rapist. ”

    To avoid confusion, perhaps they could just phrase like something like: a nine-year-old was raped, allegedly by her step father.

    That way, those who are less-than-perceptive could be assured that no one’s being blamed prematurely while simultaneously not dealing in rape-apologist language.

  145. #145 Josh
    March 5, 2009

    And they’ll say that, in this case, without the barest hint of irony.

    Of course they will. Irony is kind of difficult. Most commonly, you actually have to do a bit of thinking to distinguish it from rain on your wedding day.

    And, as we see get demonstrated on this blog day after day, thinking makes the baby Jesus cry.

  146. #146 Brownian
    March 5, 2009

    It’s probably been close to 15 years since I considered myself anything resembling “Catholic”, and I’m still absolutely disgusted that I ever had ties to an evil, deranged, inhuman organization like that. This is your Church, Catholics. This is what you support by your membership and tithing. This is what you condone by your attendance and participation. I don’t care what a nice or funny guy your pastor is, how much charity work your parish youth group does. Each time you cross that threshold, dip your fingers into the stoup, and make the sign of the cross, you are reaffirming your devotion to this vile machine of oppression and abuse. If you have a shred of humanity or any real concept of morality, leave that abomination or stand up and fucking change it!

    This is exactly what I was trying to say with satire. If I ever have the pleasure of meeting you in person, my fellow formerly Catholic Lithuanian atheist, I’ll consider it an honour to buy you a, well, a ragutis!

  147. #147 prettyinpink
    March 5, 2009

    Repulsive.

  148. #148 Eamon Knight
    March 5, 2009

    In the context of the situation itself, I can’t believe how many people are obsessing over what is probably just a bit of incompetent work by an anonymous headline editor. They know they have to say “alleged” somewhere, they only have so much space to work with — it’s inevitable that the results often don’t say exactly what they should. By all means, bitch about it a little — but concentrate on the real villains of the piece.

  149. #149 Happy Kiwi
    March 5, 2009

    Imagine if Catholics got as outraged about this disgusting travesty as they did about PZ defiling a cracker. But hey! Everyone has priorities.

  150. #150 Roger Scott
    March 5, 2009

    “It’s the law of God: Do not kill. We consider this murder,” Miranda said in comments reported by O Globo.
    Murder was apparently OK when Bruno was burned, by the very same Catholic Church. And his crime was nothing more than a thought crime.
    It is wonderful that we humans have an institution like the Catholic Church which can direct us in the way of Eternal Truth.

  151. #151 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “The circumspect, ass-covering tone of the coverage here is indistinguishable from that which might befit a case involving a 35 year old prostitute. I find this deeply repugnant.”

    As do I. Of course, the rape of a 35-year-old prostitute would be erased or “justifed” by her “choice” of lifestyle. She would still have been raped, but newspapers (and most people, including the police, I fear) would never call it that. And, as usual, no one would go to jail for it. Few people see less justice for the wrongs against them than sex workers.

  152. #152 woody
    March 5, 2009

    Robert @ 107

    another fella said it earlier: yeah, yer a fuckwit

    sincerely…

  153. #153 Endor
    March 5, 2009

    “They know they have to say “alleged” somewhere, they only have so much space to work with — it’s inevitable that the results often don’t say exactly what they should.”

    Actually, as Shakesville routinely points out, newspapers almost *never* call rape what it is and routinely use “sex” or “alleged rape” instead. This effectively minimizes or erases the crime and the criminal and puts the focus on the victim, either by conflating rape with sex (as in the “toddle sex” crap someone mentioned up thread), or putting alleged in the blatantly wrong place.

    “By all means, bitch about it a little — but concentrate on the real villains of the piece.”

    Agreed. The point is the article isn’t doing that by pretending the rape is “alleged”.

  154. #154 NewEnglandBob
    March 5, 2009

    I have to temper my extreme rage at the catholic church, otherwise I might be tempted to call for burning them all down around Rio.

  155. #155 HugoRune
    March 5, 2009

    Still no mention of this on the Catholic League website. Is this because the Catholic League is more concerned with the protection of crackers than 9 year old rape victims.

  156. #156 Brownian
    March 5, 2009

    Hey, why all the Robert bashing for #107? He explained the law and the reasoning for it, as far as he sees it (and what do I know? I’m no lawyer–unlike 90% of them I was able to find gainful employment with my political science education.)

    He was pretty clear in stating that he in no way endorses either the step-father’s or the archdiocese’s actions.

  157. #157 Jeanette
    March 5, 2009

    This is so disgusting I could puke.

    I can see how the headline might refer to an “alleged” rapist, until a suspect had faced trial, but there’s no question that the victim is a rape victim.

    Yes, children can be sexually active… experimenting with other children (as most of us probably did), and teens may become sexually active with adults, but when a child as young as nine has become pregnant by her stepfather, that’s a rape.

    And she shouldn’t have to face any consequences whatsoever for someone else’s perversion. She shouldn’t have had to go through the rape, the pregnancy, or the abortion. Nobody who helped her should have to suffer in any way, either.

    I’m just ranting about the obvious, because there’s nothing else I can do. But I’d like to know the identity of the stepfather, if he’s found guilty or if he’s not found guilty but admits or is found to have had “consensual sex” with the child. I think the whole world should know his identity, if it was an adult who impregnated her.

  158. #158 Greg
    March 5, 2009

    Woody @ 152

    Not only that he is also legally wrong in most jurisdictions. A nine year old cannot give consent to sex therefore any sex with a nine year old is rape. The “alleged” tag should only be applied to the suspected rapist until such time as he´s found guilty.
    Apologies if this was mentioned before but I´ve had a few beers.

    End of pedantry (or whatever or whatever interweb symbology is used to describe such).

  159. #159 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    @robert 107:

    If the father is her step-father, it could still be consensual

    NO. IT. CAN’T. this is why, and you even mention it in the next fucking line, there is the idea of statutory rape to begin with.

    people CAN be too young to give informed consent, period.

    don’t be so fucking obtuse.

  160. #160 Dahan
    March 5, 2009

    My cousin’s comment on this article?

    “This might actually make sense because her body can’t handle it, not because of they horrible crime that caused it.”

    Sometimes I think I must be adopted. I dont seem to think like the rest of my family.

  161. #161 Happy Trollop
    March 5, 2009

    Wow. Plus or minus 160 comments so far and no Catlicks have come ’round yet to defend their jebus.

    How strange.

    Maybe if the stepfather had raped a magical cracker… but let’s not go there.

  162. #162 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    Imagine if Catholics got as outraged about this disgusting travesty as they did about PZ defiling a cracker. But hey! Everyone has priorities.

    excellent point.

  163. #163 Marc Abian
    March 5, 2009

    #144

    That would indeed be ideal. If they didn’t think of something like that, that’s understandable. If they purposely worded it like that to try to extenuate the crime like some seem to be suggesting then I think everyone on this blog would share the outrage, so the argument over the word between ourselves here is probably unnecessary.

  164. #164 Kristine
    March 5, 2009

    Fatima Maia, director of the public university hospital where the abortion was performed, said the 15-week-old pregnancy posed a serious risk to the 80-pound girl.

    “She is very small. Her uterus doesn’t have the ability to hold one, let alone two children,” Maia told the Jornal do Brasil newspaper.

    But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda and Recife in northeastern Brazil, said the girl should have carried the twins to term and had a cesarean section.

    These right-to-lifers make me sick!

  165. #165 bluescat48
    March 5, 2009

    It appears that the girl & the 2 fetuses all dying is better that just the 2 fetuses dying and the girl living.

    Total nonsense. The churches stand makes about as much sense as 2 + 2 = 3

  166. #166 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    I am an atheist, and will cheerfully blaspheme to any extent necessary if that will aid in securing your assistanc ein this matter. Regards, Jason

    LOL

    right on, Jason!

    continuing the crackergate theme, might i suggest stealing some communion wafers and nailing them to the door of you local church representative’s office? Put a copy of “The God Delusion” at the foot of the same door, personally inscribed with “fuck you and the church you rode in on!”

    I’m sure others will have some fun and creative ideas for fomenting your excommunication.

  167. #167 Pedantic Ass
    March 5, 2009

    If two underage people have sex with each other (without outside coercion), then have they raped each other? Are they both rapists?

    If not, then…
    It is pretty clear that although that is not the case here, until the facts are settled ‘alleged’ is technically the correct term. Two kids could have sex with each other (without outside coercion) and neither be raped.

  168. #168 michel
    March 5, 2009

    for all those so sure she was raped…

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers

    yes, as young as 8 (and maybe even 5). and almost all raped. but not all.

  169. #169 Brownian
    March 5, 2009

    for all those so sure she was raped…

    Most of those claiming she was definitely raped are arguing from the position that no child of that age is capable of giving consent, and therefore any sex between a capable adult and such a child is rape by definition.

  170. #170 NoFear
    March 5, 2009

    What got me is the fact that this girl being a rape victim was not enough for the courts to authorize an abortion, they only authorized it because of the physical danger to the girl. If she were not bearing twins, there is a strong likelihood that the abortion would not have been authorized by the courts. That thought disgusts me even more.

    Oh, and the rapist should serve the rest of his natural life in prison, no parole, but he’ll probably just get a couple of years, or maybe become the founder of a huge new religion like another raper of 9 year olds that I can think of.

  171. #171 Menyambal
    March 5, 2009

    Damnation! Can we quit arguing about “alleged”, and start arguing about “aborts” now? Please? The headline makes it sound like the poor, unfortunate girl either had a miscarriage or performed the abortion herself.

    It is a poorly written headline, okay? The words are not what’s important. Meanings shift, hey? When some nut is driving his car wildly through traffic, with a hundred cops in hot pursuit and a zillion people watching on TV, he is still called a “suspect”. Words mean different things to different people, and arguing about the precise placement and meaning of words is a right churchly trick. I’ve sat through many a sermon that was less pedantic about parsing a bible verse. Get over that.

    A child was raped. Who and how doesn’t change the fact that she was raped. Not allegedly. Raped. Some adult, somewhere, betrayed her trust. If she was happily boinking with another nine-year-old, somebody’s parents screwed up in letting it happen before she was of age. She was raped.

    The rapist is allegedly her step-father.

    The church is allegedly on her side.

    The priests are allegedly men of God.

    God allegedly exists.

    Not if this can happen.

    Not if this can happen.

  172. #172 Pedantic Ass
    March 5, 2009

    Brownian says, “between a capable adult and such a child is rape by definition”

    Yes, but is it an established fact that the sex was between an adult and child? Could it have been between two children of the same age? If the fact, that an adult and child were involved, has not been established by a legal body, then alleged is still technically correct.

    It looks pretty obvious that is not the case here, but “pretty obvious” has been wrong before. Journalism uses the word “alleged” to avoid exactly those situations.

  173. #173 'Tis Himself
    March 5, 2009

    The headline is badly written. So what? The important fact is that the Catholic Church thinks that abortion to save the life of a rape victim is an excommunicable offense.

  174. #174 Cuttlefish, OM
    March 5, 2009

    Make certain that your bets are hedged
    And always use the word “alleged”–
    It shows your head is firmly wedged
    Where sun will never shine.
    That word aside, we can’t escape
    The facts: this case is clearly rape
    Made even worse because of Pap-
    al reasoning divine.

  175. #175 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    Journalism uses the word “alleged” to avoid exactly those situations.

    I wish that were the case, that journalists actually thought carefully about what they write before they write it.

    However, it’s been my experience working with reporters that this is not the case.

    It’s much more likely that it was pounded into the poor schmuck’s head who wrote this that any legal case that had not been concluded must include the word “alleged” simply for liability reasons.

    Which would explain why the poor choice of word syntax. If whoever had in fact worded it so the alleged was next to the perpetrator instead of the victim, this entire pedantic debate never would have occurred.

    I’m also sure a lot of what maintains it (the pedantic debate) is just deflective behavior, based on the fact that few of us want to realize the actual horror of that situation, or imagine it could be one of our own kids involved.

    Might I suggest a more entertaining deflective pastime to be giving Jason more ideas about how to excommunicate himself from the church?

  176. #176 michel
    March 5, 2009

    Most of those claiming she was definitely raped are arguing from the position that no child of that age is capable of giving consent, and therefore any sex between a capable adult and such a child is rape by definition.

    that’s perfectly obvious, thank you. and if it was an adult, it’s rape. but just go through the list on the wikipedia page… some sound like 2 kids fooling around and having no idea.

    having said that, it’s not hard to tell that in this case, the girl was probably raped by her stepfather. but ‘probably’, makes the girl an ‘alleged rape victim’.

  177. #177 Strangebrew
    March 5, 2009

    More then time this Catholic fuckerloonacy was kicked well into a fucking tar pit with the rest of the gallant extinct losers of the evolution tango!

    Moronic fucking sub-slime…are an embarrassment to the Universe.

    They can take the rest of the other jeebus frigging fucktards with them..they will nor be missed by civilisation.

  178. #178 ctenotrish
    March 5, 2009

    Off topic, looking for some help:

    A while back, someone (I think it was here on Pharyngula) referenced a primate population where an inversion (I think) or some other chromosome rearrangement was impacting reproductive success. I am having no luck tracking down the original lit. Does this ring a bell for anyone?? If so, can you please email me the reference info to my username @ gmail? I’d appreciate it very much. Cheers, ctenotrish

    PS – Sorry to put this here, but I needed an active comment section. This CLEARLY applies. That poor child.

  179. #179 Jess T
    March 5, 2009

    I felt physically ill when I read that. Why aren’t more people outraged?

  180. #180 Pedantic Ass
    March 5, 2009

    Ichthyic wins, I concede. The journalists were just covering their asses.

    The headline should have read, (if they weren’t cowardly bastards)
    “Alleged Brazil girl, alleged rape victim, allegedly aborts alleged twins.
    The alleged procedure on the alleged 9-year-old girl allegedly draws alleged complaints from allegedly Catholic church”

  181. #181 Jaycubed
    March 5, 2009

    “FYI: Baseline male fertility is not achieved until about 13 years of age typically. Full fertility is not achieved until 16 or older.
    Again, these are generalizations. Just sayin’. The odds of a 9 year old getting impregnated by a 10 year old are very, very, very low.”

    Posted by: The Rev

    It is also rare for 9yo. girls to be “fully fertile”. The odds of a 9yo. girl getting pregnant at all is also “very, very, very low”. But it obviously can & does happen.

    Especially when they are subjected to being repeatedly raped.

    PS. I bet that if buggered choir boys (& priests) got pregnant, the RC church would have a somewhat different view on abortion.

  182. #182 michel
    March 5, 2009

    #180 pedantic ass, i think you’re forgetting that ichthyic has some personal experience to back it up.

  183. #183 Paulino
    March 5, 2009

    This grotesquery is going from bad to worse: the church’s lawyer will seek legal action against the girl’s mother for homicide…

    I’ve only found this news in portuguese:
    http://g1.globo.com/Noticias/Brasil/0,,MUL1027750-5598,00-ADVOGADO+DE+IGREJA+VAI+DENUNCIAR+MAE+DE+MENINA+GRAVIDA+AO+MP.html

  184. #184 Jim B
    March 5, 2009

    Knockgoats #69:

    “Problems reading, Jim? It wasn’t a statement, but a question,”

    Knockgoats, try this out:

    Does anybody know of a more pernicious child molester than Knockgoats?

    Do you really think that is a question and not a statement?

    ” and I note that you couldn’t come up with any suggestions. ”

    I had a qualified answer and I provided three examples. I also noted a weakness in your original question.

    Knockgoats said: “By the way, who’s ‘Edi Amin’?”

    You must be younger than 40 if you don’t know who he is. Google can answer it better than I can.

  185. #185 Menyambal
    March 5, 2009

    Excommunication was all they got? Shouldn’t the Pope give them a slap on the wrist? You know, something that actually hurts.

    Damnation was what they got? A group of doctors, doing their very best, got condemned to eternal hellfire? That’s gotta hurt.

    My cat is playing with a mouse. I’m going to go rescue the little critter, and get myself excommunicated. I’ll be damned if I go where the Pope is going.

  186. #186 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    The headline should have read, (if they weren’t cowardly bastards)
    “Alleged Brazil girl, alleged rape victim, allegedly aborts alleged twins.
    The alleged procedure on the alleged 9-year-old girl allegedly draws alleged complaints from allegedly Catholic church”

    damn straight.

    :p

  187. #187 Brownian
    March 5, 2009

    Pedantic Ass, that’s why I’m not coming down hard on anyone on either side of the allegedly/not-allegedly debate.

    Whether or not she was raped, consented to the sex, or regularly organises free love orgies for the townsfolk, the fact that a bunch of fucking ostensibly virgin men deem themselves more fit to determine the course of her life and the lives of any children she might have now or in the future than she is based on the scam they’ve got going in which God whispers the Truth™ into their ears alone (and that can’t be, because God talks to you, not Catholic bishops, right Heddle?) is the real bloody crime, here.

  188. #188 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    some more ideas for Jason:

    Tell your local Bishop you think the sun revolves around the earth!

    no, wait… I think that’s already been done.

    Tell them you have persistent thoughts of raping young children…

    um, no, that’s been done too, and will likely garner you an offer to enter the priesthood.

    damn, this is tougher than I thought.
    :P

  189. #189 Pedantic Ass
    March 5, 2009

    I don’t disagree with Brownian (#187).

    The fact is that I don’t think any reasonable person here would disagree that:
    1. The girl was raped.
    2. The abortion was justified.
    3. The world is full of asshats. *

    Since these positions are reasonable, there’s no real reason to debate them. The use of the word “alleged”, however, is a real travesty, and that is why I put on my “Pedantic Ass” hat today.

    * P.S. Whenever I hear the word “asshat” I can’t help but visualize the Pope. Something about the fancy hat, I suppose.

  190. #190 michel
    March 5, 2009

    # 187

    100% true. in that respect, i like pedantic ass’ ‘allegedly catholic church’. it seems more like a satanic church.

  191. #191 BlueIndependent
    March 5, 2009

    Wow, a bunch of Catholic idiots advocates aiding and abetting a felony crime against a woman by blaming the victim and demanding she succumb to the presence of two unborn fetuses.

    How simply novel and totalitarian of them.

  192. #192 Sven DiMilo
    March 5, 2009

    Jim B, Google spit out this guy.

  193. #193 Erp
    March 5, 2009

    Do not read if you don’t want to get more upset.

    http://www.xanga.com/TheTheologiansCafe/694403556/pregnant-at-nine/

    The comments include ones like

    “I’m a Christian, so I believe that God formed every life. He made these twins and molded them, and placed them with the mother they have because it’s His will. We may not understand it, but to kill the children isn’t right in my eyes. Yes, the girl risks medical problems because she is so young if she decides to keep the children, and yes, I know she’s already been through enough, but I believe God took this terrible situation and turned it into a blessing. Even if she does suffer injury, God’s going to use it as blessing.”

    Though most of the comments don’t agree to this extreme and quite a few were in favor of abortion in this particular case.

  194. #194 Siveambrai
    March 5, 2009

    This story horrifys me. As a child I pariticpated in anti-abortion events along with other members of my family. Although I have grown up and moved away from religion it saddens me that members of my family support this type action by their church still.

    Although they may deny it here in the US. As another poster pointed out all that money goes to one place and IS used to support individuals such as this.

    FYI: I think the Edi Amin that someone mentioned earlier is actually Idi Amin (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idi_Amin)

  195. #195 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    Tis Himself: The fact of the matter is that the outright misogyny that drives the anti-choice movement, including the woman-hating bishop is the same sort of outright misogyny and woman-hating that would drive any person to become such a rape apologist that it would be questioned that this little girl was raped.

    It’s absolutely fucking revolting that this is even an issue and anyone who purports to be outraged and offended at the Catholic Church for being misogynistic assholes ought to share the same sort of outrage for those misogynistic assholes who are apparently so indoctrinated in our rape-culture that they would think to question whether or not a 9 year old girl was raped.

    The badly written headline reminds us that while (in some states and in some counties) we might not find the same sort of opposition to what was clearly the right and necessary decision, the hatred of women that is required for this story to happen is here as well.

  196. #196 Brownian
    March 5, 2009

    Jason, why not simply tell them you love your fellow human beings as yourself.

    If that isn’t the most un-Christian sentiment (as is apparently by its paucity among those that describe themselves as such), I don’t know what is.

  197. #197 'Tis Himself
    March 5, 2009

    As long as the stepfather rapist confesses his sins and does penance, the church will consider him to be a member in good standing.

  198. #198 Pete
    March 5, 2009

    @Brownian:
    “Hey, why all the Robert bashing for #107?”

    Because of the well-documented “sacred value violation” response:
    1) Outrage is expressed at the source of violation
    2) Outrage is expressed at people who do not themselves express outrage, or whose expression is deemed insufficient
    3) Cleansing behaviors are carried out

    It’s #2 that is most interesting – it explains the tendency which I’m sure we’re all doing, of scanning comments for something additional to get upset about, with hair-trigger responses that prevent sarcasm detection, etc.

    The cleansing behaviors are pursuing excommunication, writing a letter to the editor, etc.

    ps. yes, I am outraged.

  199. #199 Wowbagger
    March 5, 2009

    Fucking monsters all of them. Why there aren’t more riots and demonstrations outside churches I will never understand.

    Just on the quandary about ‘alleged’ – IANAL, but I was wondering if rape is a legal term or not. If it’s a legal term then might it have something to do with it only able to be (legally) considered ‘rape’ once the accused has been found guilty?

    I mean, if a person kills another person, it isn’t considered ‘murder’ unless that person’s found guilty of ‘murder’.

    Yes, it’s obvious that, under every other meaning of the word the girl was raped. No question. But for it to be officially the crime of rape would mean that guilt has to be established. And until that time the newspapers can’t not use ‘alleged’.

    Again, IANAL; I’ll be happy to be corrected.

  200. #200 monson
    March 5, 2009

    I wonder what Isis thinks?

  201. #201 MikeM
    March 5, 2009

    To: Catholics on the Fence.

    I quit in 1983, after a multimedia presentation on Leviticus. I haven’t looked back. One of the best decisions I’ve made about my life.

    You’re living your life around superstition, and as the Catholics themselves how now confirmed, a sick superstition.

    Get out now. Leave the fog.

    By the way, I should add that I don’t think for a second one of our many protestant mega-churches would disagree with the stance the Catholics have taken here.

    Think it over, fence-sitting Protestants. This differs little from what your local minister would tell you. They’d say, “We don’t know what God had in this girl’s plans! We shouldn’t interfere!”. I’ve heard ‘em say this.

    They’re sick too.

  202. #202 Kemist
    March 5, 2009

    You know, I’ve not gone to church in years, I openly declare myself an atheist, but I’ve never gone through the bother of having myself officially taken off the church’s rolls, since it’s always seemed much more trouble than it was worth (you have to write to your friggin bishop and go through a meeting with these people, which I frankly don’t really want).

    But this, and what they’ve done to populations in the third world in general, is sorely tempting me to take the time to do it.

  203. #203 Jazmin
    March 5, 2009

    Ragutis @ #122 Right on!

    I just finished having that arguement with my very catholic mom. She is a kind, loving, and incredibly generous person (and not stupid) but she is completely deluded when it comes to god and her church.

    Ragutis, you were very eloquent. Unfortunatley, this story has made me so angry that I was practically incoherent when I brought it up to Mom.

    Thanks for giving me the words.

  204. #204 Brownian
    March 5, 2009

    @Pete,

    I hadn’t heard of “sacred value violation” before, although I’ve definitely witnessed and participated in it.

    Thanks; now I’ve got some reading to do.

  205. #205 Kathryn in California
    March 5, 2009

    Kemist @ 137
    I have a rule of thumb when discussing abortion with forced-birth proponents:

    When someone refers to pregnancy and its associated risks (even in a normal, healthy adult mother) in humans as a “minor inconvenience”, I definitely know I’m speaking to an ignorant, and generally an irretrievable idiot

    My rule of thumb when in the same situation is to ask one or more of these questions.
    1. What’s the background maternal rate of death from childbirth?
    2. What’s the cure for eclampsia?
    3. What’s the background maternal rate of death from ectopic pregnancies?
    4. When did women first survive c-sections?

    If they emphatically give wrong answers, then I figure they might be of the same type as lying-for-Jesus creationists.

  206. #206 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    Wowbagger:

    When’s the last time you read “alleged murder victim.”

    A person is not a murderer until convicted – true. (Although that opens up some interesting philosophy questions) However the victim of the crime OF COURSE IS A MURDER VICTIM HOW ELSE WOULD THE COURT SYSTEM BE ABLE TO INDICT SOMEONE? You need a crime.

    The reason why we can say “alleged” with respect to a rape victim is that we’re culturally conditioned to consider consent from the reasonable man’s perspective, as opposed to a reasonable woman. Which allows all sorts of sneakiness to happen.

  207. #207 Wowbagger
    March 5, 2009

    I wonder if anyone’s mentioned to those who think she should have kept the twins because it’s an offence to God to have aborted them that, if God didn’t want the twins to die, why did he let the girl’s stepfather rape her in the first place?

  208. #208 monson
    March 5, 2009

    @203 how do you define stupid?

  209. #209 Francis
    March 5, 2009

    Ok, this nonsense needs to stop. First, IAAL. Second, the “two kids fooling around” (more commonly known as Jack and Jill) laws do not apply to anyone as young as nine. Not even close. Third, the inability of the perpetrator to have the necessary mental state to commit the crime of rape (because he’s either too young or mentally incapacitated) does not change the nature of the crime from the victim’s point of view.

    So,

    A. she was raped.

    B. In the US, it is possible that the rapist could never be tried as an adult in ordinary criminal court for the crime, because (i) he’s too young — in which case he would go through juvenile court proceedings; or (ii) he’s insane/retarded — in which case he would go through involuntary commitment proceedings.

    C. To reiterate, for those who seem to need these points made repeatedly, the fact that there may be no person who can be prosecuted for the crime does NOT NOT NOT mean that no crime was committed.

    She Is At An Age Where, Everywhere In the US, She CANNOT Consent to Sex As A Matter Of Law; She Was Raped.

  210. #210 Pedantic Ass
    March 5, 2009

    #206. Ask and you shall receive (via google news)

    “alleged murder victim”

    http://www.thisisscunthorpe.co.uk/news/Murder-accused-just-little-kick/article-702986-detail/article.html

    If you search google proper, not the news, you will get many more…

  211. #211 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    Thanks Francis.

    Although I can’t help but worry that someone’s going to pipe up with a “but it happened in Brazil, maybe that’s different . . .”

    feh.

  212. #212 AnthonyK
    March 5, 2009

    I believe God took this terrible situation and turned it into a blessing.

    Is this what they really think? That god was just about to turn it into a blessing, and would have done so but for the murderous interference of the doctors and parents?
    Is that what is going on here – god’s mysterious ways being thwarted?
    No, no, I still don’t understand.
    Any of it.

  213. #213 stephanie
    March 5, 2009

    you don’t get excommunicated for repeatedly raping a 6-9 year old, but you do when you get/give said girl an abortion that saves her life. nice.

  214. #214 CalGeorge
    March 5, 2009

    “It’s the law of God: Do not kill. We consider this murder.”

    Misogynistic, controlling asshole.

    The world will be a better place when assholes like this are no longer deemed “authorities” and people wake up to the fact that the Catholic Church is nothing more than a club and haven for woman-haters.

    Well past time for the whole idiotic sham to end.

  215. #215 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    @210:
    I can’t help but think that the gray area in the McKenna case is a little different than the gray area in this one.

    but thanks, I wasn’t considering self-defense defenses.

    Of course, McKenna’s death STILL needs to be ruled a homicide BEFORE defendants A and B are able to be CONVICTED, and so, if it is ruled a murder, they can remove the “alleged” from murder victim but keep it attached to the perps.

  216. #216 Kate
    March 5, 2009

    Dear Rape/Pedophilia Apologists:

    Why don’t the lot of you go outside and play hide-and-go-fuck-yourself for a few hours? Those of us who are more concerned with the actual world would like to discuss this thread without you lot shitting it up.

    Thanks ever so much.

  217. #217 Wowbagger
    March 5, 2009

    Hypatia’s Girl wrote:

    However the victim of the crime OF COURSE IS A MURDER VICTIM HOW ELSE WOULD THE COURT SYSTEM BE ABLE TO INDICT SOMEONE? You need a crime.

    Well, while someone might be charged with murder, that isn’t necessarily what they’re found guilty of – hence the existence of crimes like manslaughter or causing accidental death and so forth.

    But I’m not in any way defending the terms or how they reflect values in society, I’m just throwing in some thoughts on why they’re used – which seems to be the result of the legal system influencing the media. Were they to change the way such words are used I would not complain.

    And yes, the girl was raped. No ifs, buts or maybes.

  218. #218 Brownian
    March 5, 2009
    I believe God took this terrible situation and turned it into a blessing.

    Is this what they really think?

    Maybe. I don’t know. Dollars to doughnuts if some group started shoving Catholics around the world in ovens they’d abandon the “God works in mysterious ways” line in a fucking heartbeat.

  219. #219 waldteufel
    March 5, 2009

    Another example of the evil, sick, twisted moral cadavers that are all manner of christian cults.

  220. #220 Henry the 9th
    March 5, 2009

    #218 “shoving Catholics around the world in ovens”

    Hot cross buns?

  221. #221 L.Minnik
    March 5, 2009

    For those who are outraged and would like to do something about child rape in the US: an activist organization

    http://www.protect.org/

  222. #222 omnipasje
    March 5, 2009

    I guess it’s clear that the 10 commendments don’t say
    “Thou shall not sexually abuse thou (steph) children”.

    so of course the church is not going to do anything against the rapest.

    This whole thing fills me with disgust.

  223. #223 Menyambal
    March 5, 2009

    God’s plan? God’s ineffable plan? God’s effing plan?

    Maybe God’s plan was to get one of the doctors excommunicated without anybody learning anything more about the noodle incident. Maybe God’s plan was to direct more attention to child rape. Maybe God’s plan was to make the Pope look like a raving asshat.

    Whenever there is a flood around here, some goober says that God wants him to rebuild. Somehow it never gets mentioned that maybe God wants him to move out of the floodplain.

    Great moniker, Hypatia’s Girl, and good writing, too.

  224. #224 CalGeorge
    March 5, 2009

    From February:

    JEDDAH, Saudi Arabia, Feb 11, 2009 (UPI via COMTEX) — A Saudi judge sentenced an unmarried woman who maintained she was gang-raped to 100 lashes and a year in jail for adultery, a Saudi newspaper reported.

    The Saudi Gazette said the 23-year-old woman “confessed” to having “forced intercourse” with a man who offered her a ride, along with four of his friends, in Jeddah, the Daily Mail reported Wednesday.

    Authorities accused the woman of trying to obtain an abortion at the King Fahd Hospital for Armed Forces after learning she was pregnant as a result of the sexual attack.
    A district court judge in Jeddah found the single woman guilty of adultery and ordered that she be flogged after the child is born, the Gazette said.

    http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/raped-saudi-woman-gets-jail/story.aspx?guid={9056329A-9AF1-4A4D-BAE2-74A4EC0D9CB8}&dist=msr_4

    That’ll teach her! The world is full of a lot of sick fucks.

  225. #225 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    Wowbagger:
    I’m still inclined to argue that legalistic nomenclature doesn’t determine the status of the victim, but I’m ornery and obstinate and not looking forward to grading a pile of ethics papers on abortion (this was supposed to be my nice distraction) where a bunch of kids are going to confuse ethical consideration with legal consideration. . .

    But your point is taken. :)

    And with regard to this story in general, really what do you expect from a religion that would lie to people in Africa about the relationship between condoms and HIV transmission. WTF motivates these people?

  226. #226 Knockgoats
    March 5, 2009

    I had a qualified answer and I provided three examples. I also noted a weakness in your original question. – Jim B.

    So you do now admit it was a question – and since it was specifically about being “consistently evil over the centuries”, none of your examples were relevant. Do you have any relevant ones? My guess is no, or you’d have brought them out by now.

    Knockgoats said: “By the way, who’s ‘Edi Amin’?”

    You must be younger than 40 if you don’t know who he is.
    – Jim B.

    Oh, I do know about the late Ugandan tyrant and mass murderer Idi Amin, but as Sven DiMilo notes, Edi Amin appears to be a businessman operating some marine concern in Indonesia. I’d be careful about libelling him any further, if I were you. Actually, I see from Google there’s another Edi Amin – a hip-hop artist. Maybe you consider hip-hop really wicked, Jim? Incidentally, the loathsome Idi was nevertheless responsible for far less suffering and unnecessary death than the Catholic hierarchy has caused since his deposition in 1979, through their misogyny, homophobia, and brazen lies about condoms letting the AIDS virus through.

  227. #227 Wowbagger
    March 5, 2009

    What we need to do is start a rumour that, before he raped her, the stepfather desecrated a cracker. Maybe then the Catholics will react the way the rest of the world has to this atrocity.

    Putting it into that context illustrates, perfectly, just how repulsive their beliefs are.

  228. #228 michel
    March 5, 2009

    When’s the last time you read “alleged murder victim.”

    just yesterday, actually. somebody died, seemingly of natural causes, but they suspected poisoning. happens all the time. so your ‘culturally conditioned’ argument about alleged rape victims doesn’t cut it for me.

    She Is At An Age Where, Everywhere In the US, She CANNOT Consent to Sex As A Matter Of Law; She Was Raped.

    brazil is not the u.s.

    there might be similar laws in brazil, but your appeal to authority comes across as misplaced.

  229. #229 Brownian
    March 5, 2009

    Hey, where the fuck are all the Catholic apologists, anyways?

    C’mon, there were hundreds of ‘em all eager to share their thoughts during Crackergate; seems odd that they all just happened to choose today to shut off the computer and run away to feed the poor and shelter the homeless.

  230. #230 Pat
    March 5, 2009

    Francis #209: “She Is At An Age Where, Everywhere In the US, She CANNOT Consent to Sex As A Matter Of Law; She Was Raped.”

    This didn’t take place in the US, though.

    Very likely, she was raped by her step father. He’s still the “alleged rapist” because he hasn’t been convicted yet.
    In most jurisdictions, a 9 year old girl getting pregnant by a 10 year old boy would still be considered rape, but not everywhere. A 10 year old *could* be a rapist, but then you have to start talking about intent – if it’s a 9 and a 10 year old just “fooling around” then yes, that’s rape in the US, but might not be elsewhere.
    I don’t know the laws in Brazil, but if a 9 year old having sex with a 10 year old is not illegal in that jurisdiction, and if the only evidence is that she’s pregnant, she’s still an “alleged” rape victim, as awful as that sounds given the circumstances.

    I’m not trying to defend anyone but the author here – the step father is a sick fuck if all of this is true, as are the priests in any case – but “alleged rape victim” may be technically correct.

  231. #231 Catholic apologist
    March 5, 2009

    Brownian,

    As we all know, doctors are educated, and thus must have eaten an extra big piece of the fruit of knowledge. Since they have an extra dash of original sin, then it is excommunication for them.

    The step-dad, however, is part of our ignorant target audience. If we can’t convince them that by being a catholic they get a “get out of jail free” card via a little confession, then we’re doomed as a business.

    Umm, I mean as a pyramid scheme.

    Dammit, I mean religion.

  232. #232 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    Wow, it took longer than I thought for the apologists to show up with “it didn’t happen in the US so therefore it’s ok that we assume that since she got knocked-up it was probably by her choice, and anyway what was she wearing?”

    Frankly, legalistic apologia notwithstanding, it is absolutely astounding that anyone would argue with the thought that a 9 year old is not capable of consenting to sex. I don’t care if the laws in the appropriate jurisdiction said that it was fine to fuck a 3 year old, it’s still rape.

  233. #233 michel
    March 5, 2009

    # 230 pat

    exactly. but be careful… some (kate #216) will claim you’re a rape apologist, keeping people who are concerned with reality from discussing in this thread.

  234. #234 michel
    March 5, 2009

    “it didn’t happen in the US so therefore it’s ok that we assume that since she got knocked-up it was probably by her choice, and anyway what was she wearing?”

    your words. your misreading.

  235. #235 Allen N
    March 5, 2009

    Fucking Christ on a Stick…this thread is stretching out because of a dispute about rape/non-rape and the word “alleged”.

    Focus people – the real issue is the stand of the Catholic Church on the abortion of twins carried by a 9 year old girl. NFW is she going to carry these to term and give birth. Oh – that’s right – she is nothing more than a life support system for a uterus and there’s always a C-section. If, as Wowbagger suggested, a cracker were involved, then the mackerel snappers would be outraged. As Brownian points out, the silence from the bible punchers is deafening.

  236. #236 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    michel -seeing as you’ve contributed exactly 2 comments, both of which arguing that it isn’t rape, I’m curious as to what you’d like to discuss about the “reality” (perhaps as opposed to some sort of legal fiction, like you know that saying someone is innocent until proven guilty before the law doesn’t mean that person didn’t commit the act until they were convicted, or if they’re wrongly convicted that somehow they acquire the guilt, the legal term doesn’t make it so, so perhaps legal fictions aren’t necessarily the appropriate version of reality).

    So, go – what would you like to contribute to this thread?

  237. #237 Brownian
    March 5, 2009

    If we can’t convince them that by being a catholic they get a “get out of jail free” card via a little confession, then we’re doomed as a business.

    Umm, I mean as a pyramid scheme.

    Dammit, I mean religion.

    Nice try, but honesty like that will expose you as an impostor every time.

  238. #238 Wolfhound
    March 5, 2009

    Where’s that dumbfuck Pete Rooke? I figured he’d be here to make excuses for his odious faith. But maybe he’s actually smart enough to know this is one he can’t defend.

    Nah.

  239. #239 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    Please michel – tell us all how arguing about whether or not she was raped, which is what the “alleged” argues, is not saying that she probably “wanted it.”?

    On second thought, you’re a rape apologist troll and probably not up to such considerations.

  240. #240 Slaughter
    March 5, 2009

    “MSNBC has to use the term ‘alleged’ because someone has been charged with a crime and he is, presumably even in Brazil, innocent until proven guilty. ProtoK”

    “Nonsense. That she is a rape victim is absolutely clear – to suppose that a nine-year-old can validly consent to sex is ludicrous. That does not imply that the accused is guilty – just that some man is. Knockgoats”

    I agree with Knockgoats on the consent issue, but they misuse the word. You need to attribute it. But that’s a minor point in a story that gives us one more reason to detest the Catholic Church. Hey, where’s Bill Donohue in all of this?

  241. #241 nfpendleton
    March 5, 2009

    F*ck the catholic church.

  242. #242 michel
    March 5, 2009

    # 236

    scroll up. you’ll see more than ‘exactly 2 comments’. and in one i say that it’s probably rape. so don’t try to pin that “you’re arguing it isn’t rape” on me.

  243. #243 Pat
    March 5, 2009

    @Hypatia’s Girl #232

    If you’re referring to me saying that it is possible that “alleged” is appropriately used (at least in a legal and/or avoiding libel sense), how exactly is that being a rape apologist?

    Very likely, she was raped. This is a horrific incident, and if the step father was the rapist, I hope they slice his balls off with a rusty spoon.

    That said, if two nine year olds, or a nine and a ten year old, are fooling around and neither is forcing anything on the other, that isn’t considered rape everywhere. I don’t know the laws in Brazil, but laws in the US to this effect have been used to punish children and teenagers experimenting with people their own age, placing them on “sex offender” lists for life.

    No 9 year old can consent with any adult, but it is possible (however unlikely) that she became pregnant through some willing act with someone her own age. I’m not saying that it’s likely, simply possible. A court can try her step father, and if he is guilty of this heinous act, I hope he is punished to the full extent of Brazilian law.

  244. #244 Jazmin
    March 5, 2009

    reply to monson @ 208:

    I agree my mom is stupid when it comes to god and the church. I guess I prefer to call it delusional out of respect for her in all other things. She just completely shuts down any argument that does not agree with hers regarding the god issue. In her defense, she completely agreed that it was necessary and right for the girl to have the abortion. Our argument was about her continuing financial support of the church even when it does or says things that she feels are wrong.

    At seventy years old, I don’t think she’s going to change much. I regret not trying to make more of an effort to educate her in the past but I will continue to do my best now. Unfortunately, I live in the same house with her because she is taking care of me during medical problems. We used to just have the annual “diplomatic holiday dinners” and it was easier then. Now I just bring it up only once a week or so. She usually responds by throwing holy water at me (no shit) and I give her my best Wicked Witch of the West impression.

    It’s not all fun and games here in Delaware, though we do try.

  245. #245 Dianne
    March 5, 2009

    They’d say, “We don’t know what God had in this girl’s plans! We shouldn’t interfere!”. I’ve heard ‘em say this.

    But, in that case, how do we know that God’s plan for this girl didn’t involve her having an abortion? We shouldn’t interfere with it then, right?

    (The problem of how people can interfere with the plans of an omniscient and omnipotent GOd anyway is left as an exercise for the reader.)

  246. #246 Mick
    March 5, 2009

    I wonder how these sadists can possibly call themselves “pro life” when they so nakedly advocate destroying the life of a nine year old girl – probably incapable of keeping the twins alive in her tiny body so they’d get the chop as well. Chew on that Rome.
    More love and fuzziness from the people who brought you the Spanish Inquisition.

  247. #247 Knockgoats
    March 5, 2009

    Wolfhound,
    Yes indeed. Pete Rooke, Piltdown Man, Eric – we somehow haven’t heard from any of our favourite Catholics on this issue. Of course, it might just happen that none of them is around, but you have to wonder. Come on, have any of you three the decency to say the church hierarchy is just wrong here? Any practising Catholic going to speak up and say the same? Or tell us why you think the hierarchy is right? (Or maybe you should explain that to the girl and her mother.)

  248. #248 PK
    March 5, 2009

    @Knockgoats #247

    I’m a practicing Catholic, and I’ll say that what the church hierarchy did was wrong, here.

    (Then again, I attend a fairly pro-choice Catholic church, despite how oxymoronic that sounds)

  249. #249 michel
    March 5, 2009

    # 239

    easy now. read pat @ #243. that’s exactly what i’m claiming. if you think that’s a rape apologist, then there’s nothing i can do to change your mind about what i am.

  250. #250 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    Yes indeed. Pete Rooke, Piltdown Man, Eric – we somehow haven’t heard from any of our favourite Catholics on this issue. Of course, it might just happen that none of them is around, but you have to wonder. Come on, have any of you three the decency to say the church hierarchy is just wrong here? Any practising Catholic going to speak up and say the same? Or tell us why you think the hierarchy is right? (Or maybe you should explain that to the girl and her mother.)

    Something tells me if they do show, it will be conclusive proof of their pervasive idiocy.

    I mean, if you saw a crowd, wielding pitchforks and torches, that were looking for Frankenstein…

    would you walk right up and say, “Yeah, that’s me, whaddya want?”

  251. #251 Sven DiMIlo
    March 5, 2009

    I’d claim that my name was pronounced “Frankensteen” and hustle out of there.

  252. #252 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    Pat -
    From the reports the alleged rapist is her stepfather, there hasn’t been any reports of another young boy connected with her (which is slightly more sensationalistic and so I would assume would be totally played up).
    Not being a physiologist, I would be interested to know the average age of sexual maturity in boys. 9 is young for girls to have gone through (started) puberty.

    And – do you honestly, truly, for really really real think that she WASN’T raped? Why shouldn’t we believe her?

    We’re too quick to assume that there’s some “reasonable” explanation, perhaps she’s mistaken? The “alleged” with regard to her being raped implies that we shouldn’t believe her. There is a tendency in the media to downplay rape, recast it as sex or a mistake, or to rely on the passive voice, (i.e. she was raped, as opposed to someone raped her) which reinforces the view that women are responsible for sex and the consequences of sex, almost as though there wasn’t another person involved.

    Defending the “allegedly” defends the view that perhaps that 9 year old girl was mistaken about whether or not she consented to sex with her stepfather. That’s unacceptable.

  253. #253 AnthonyK
    March 5, 2009

    It does seem rather odd to be arguing over the exact meaning of the word “rape” and the word “alleged”.
    Smacks to me almost of the same kind of nitpicking that enables the church to lose the sin in the definition of the hurt it has done to God – or not.

  254. #254 Bobber
    March 5, 2009

    I highly doubt we’ll see any of the usual Defenders of God taking a stand on this one.

    It’s easy to denounce abortion in the abstract. But when a concrete case like this is brought forward, most in the anti-abortion crowd quietly go home. Does it surprise anyone that reality is something that makes them uncomfortable? Isn’t that a major basis for religious belief in the first place?

  255. #255 Kate
    March 5, 2009

    So anyway….

    A nine year old child, who would undoubtedly be injured by carrying a twin pregnancy to term, has her pregnancy aborted in order to not only save her life but also to protect her from the obvious psychological trauma of being forced to carry her rapist’s fetus to term.

    The Catholic Church would rather have that nine year old child (Please, keep this in mind. We’re talking about a CHILD here. A THIRD GRADER.) suffer possible permanent physical harm and possibly death (According to her doctor, a trained medical professional.) in order to bring her rapist’s fetus to term.

    This is misogyny and child abuse rolled up into one disgusting slimy package.

    I can not understand how any Catholic parent could possibly remain Catholic after this. Hell, I don’t understand how anyone could possibly support this horrible, indecent, immoral act of the Catholic Church.

    I distinctly remember, when attending church as a kid with a friend after sleeping over on a Saturday night, a sermon about how each and every Catholic should always remember to protect those who can not protect themselves and to love and protect those who are hurt, afraid, lonely or vulnerable, as Christ himself did.

    It seems to me that I do a better job of that than any church-going theist, and I’ve been a filthy heathen unbeliever since birth.

  256. #256 FlameDuck
    March 5, 2009

    At the risk of reitterating what has already been said:

    FACT: She is 9 years old.
    FACT: She is pregnant with twins.
    FACT: The age of consent in Brazil is 18.

    How was she not raped? Ignoring virgin birth, how can a person, below the age of consent, become pregnant without having been raped? She tripped, fell, landed on a dick. 700 times? I mean come on.

  257. #257 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    I’d claim that my name was pronounced “Frankensteen” and hustle out of there.

    Frau Blucher!

  258. #258 Somnolent Aphid
    March 5, 2009

    Jesus slipped me the tongue once.

  259. #259 Sven DiMIlo
    March 5, 2009
  260. #260 TheOutsider
    March 5, 2009

    Hypatia’s Girl, Kate, et al, will you knock off this “rape apologist” bullshit? Nobody on this thread is a rape apologist. This whole argument started when, as early as the second comment, somebody called MSNBC on the liability-dodging asshattery of their headline wording. The bet-hedging about what has so far been proved in a legal system I’m sure none of us are experts on proceeded from there, and in case it needs to be clarified, nobody is arguing that the girl could possibly have consented to sex with her stepfather.

    The commenters above invoking the possibility of “consent” or at least “non-rape” are clearly speaking to the hypothetical and unlikely scenario that this reproductively semi-mature (enough to conceive, anyway) nine-year-old could have become pregnant through uncoerced sexual activity with somebody very close to her own age; it’s a thought experiment to provide some possible reasons, for the sake of argument, for some copy editor’s use of “alleged” in that context. Is it called for or warranted given the larger context? I don’t think so, but it’s the internet, so what do you expect?

    So: nobody is making the least apology for the bastard who, more likely than any other explanation, raped this tiny child. We’re all outraged. Recognize who your allies are.

  261. #261 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    Kate -

    See, if we started helping the poor and disenfranchised and generally downtrodden, then their lives would be better and they wouldn’t have to cling to a belief that there is a better life after they die, and if they say the magic words and eat the magic crackers then they’ll get into the magic land, and where would the church get it’s money? from the wealthy?

    Now if we keep people poor and powerless (there is a correlation between women’s education, number of children and the economic and social stability in a given area, wouldn’t it be nice if I could find the damn link) our magic picture stories will at least give ‘em something to look forward to, and that’s worth the price of admission.

  262. #262 bastion of sass
    March 5, 2009

    As someone who was raised a Catholic, and AFAIK, is still on the church roles, I know what I’d say if I were the girl’s mother or doctors, and I was threatened with excommunication:

    “Ooooh, I’m so-o-o-o scared. This will effect my life exactly how?”

    OK. Yeah, if the Catholic Church publicized my excommunication, my mom and my Catholic friends might be a little saddened and concerned about my going to hell. But I suspect that they already are.

    I hope that the girl’s mother and doctor’s have as little to worry about WRT the consequences of excommunication as I do.

    I mean, really. Excommunication. BFD.

  263. #263 SC, OM
    March 5, 2009

    If you’re referring to me saying that it is possible that “alleged” is appropriately used (at least in a legal and/or avoiding libel sense)

    I can’t believe I’m throwing in here, but I don’t see how it could be in the “avoiding libel” sense. Don’t you actually have to name someone to libel him or her? The only suspect against whom an allegation has been made is the stepfather, who is clearly an adult, in which case it’s rape. They haven’t named any children, so in the minute possibility that it turned out to have been a boy her age, they could just say, “Oh, something different than we had thought.” I can’t imagine how it would be possible for the boy’s family in that case to bring a libel suit against the news outlet simply for having earlier said that the girl was raped, but I could be wrong.

  264. #264 E.V.
    March 5, 2009

    It’s too bad the Earth doesn’t have a reset button. Wipe everything out and start fresh and hope for the best since there’s a few billion years left before Sol goes supernova.

  265. #265 michel
    March 5, 2009

    # 252

    hopefully you’ve read my post at #249 where i say that pat’s post exactly reflects my position.

    The “alleged” with regard to her being raped implies that we shouldn’t believe her.

    well, legally you shouldn’t believe anyone until there’s proof. the alleged only means we need more investigation to make a ‘probably’ a ‘certainly’. no doubt there will be some dna results soon.

    there are many stories of people that have their lives ruined because they’re falsely accused of child abuse. here in holland we recently had a story where a father of a really religious family found out he didn’t believe in god anymore. he told his wife and she got really mad. she wanted him out of her life and told the police he had abused the children for many years. his life was ruined before the police found out it was all a lie.

    in no way am i claiming that the stepfather is actually the victim, but right now, the stepfather is a suspect of rape. and from what i gather, he will soon officially be the rapist.

    Defending the “allegedly” defends the view that perhaps that 9 year old girl was mistaken about whether or not she consented to sex with her stepfather.

    nope. sex with her stepfather would mean rape. no discussion about that. if she consented, the he should not do it. it’s as simple as that.

  266. #266 Menyambal
    March 5, 2009

    Damn the semantics, okay? The only people to be reviled about the vileness of rape are the Pope and his pals. They find it less awful than an abortion to save the life of a raped child.

    I’m going to ask a dumb question that may have some relevance, and some dumbosity. It is unusual for a 9-year-old to be fertile. Is it possible that prolonged sexual abuse from the sick-fuck step-father contributed to early onset? If so, is that in any way evidence of anything?

    Pardon my ignorance.

  267. #267 Hypatia's Girl
    March 5, 2009

    You are completely correct SC.
    No one was arguing that the media is inappropriate in attaching “alleged” to the charges against the stepfather.
    what was being argued is the bent towards finding ways to negate the fact that barring something incredibly unlikely, someone raped a 9 year old.

    bastion of sass -
    I imagine that if I believed that god was literally and forever turning his back on me forever, as did the rest of my community, that it would be a little upsetting.

  268. #268 michel
    March 5, 2009

    # 260 theoutsider

    exactly, thanks.

  269. #269 C. M. Baxter
    March 5, 2009

    #264

    According to the Bible, Sky Daddy already tried that and it didn’t work then either.

  270. #270 CalGeorge
    March 5, 2009

    No doubt the Catholic Church was ecstatic about this (Wikipedia):

    List of youngest birth mothers

    Age 5

    * 1939: Lina Medina of Paurange, Peru gave birth to a 2.7 kg son (5.9 lb), Gerardo, by caesarean section on Mother’s Day, May 14, 1939 in Lima at the age of 5 years, 7 months and 21 days. Her parents, who assumed their daughter had a tumour, took her to a hospital, where she was determined to be seven months pregnant. Although Medina’s father was arrested on suspicion of rape, he was later released due to lack of evidence, and the identity of who impregnated Medina was never uncovered.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_youngest_birth_mothers

  271. #271 Kevin
    March 5, 2009

    In Catholicism the age where one may know sin and therefore be responsible is seven. If the assaults on the girl started when she was six then she was an innocent rape victim for a year. After that, the little slut got what’s coming to her. I have the Pope’s authority on this and he’s infallible.

  272. #272 Kate
    March 5, 2009

    @ Hypatia’s Girl

    I agree, and I’d almost find it funny enough to laugh at if it wasn’t for this sick feeling that came over me when I started reading PZ’s post.

    How can any thinking and feeling human being, no matter how blinkered by fairy tales and blood magic they might be, possibly advocate for the likely death of a young victim of rape?

  273. #273 SC, OM
    March 5, 2009

    No one was arguing that the media is inappropriate in attaching “alleged” to the charges against the stepfather.
    what was being argued is the bent towards finding ways to negate the fact that barring something incredibly unlikely, someone raped a 9 year old.

    Uh, dude – I know, and I think I’m agreeing with you on this. I’m suggesting that the libel reason for using “alleged” doesn’t seem to hold in terms of “alleged rape victim.” So if it’s a CYA word, what legal action are they trying to protect themselves against? I don’t see it.

  274. #274 bastion of sass
    March 5, 2009

    At #267 Hypatia’s Girl wrote:

    I imagine that if I believed that god was literally and forever turning his back on me forever, as did the rest of my community, that it would be a little upsetting.

    Nod. I understand that possibility exists. There was a time in my life that even the suggestion that I might be excommunicated would have caused me great distress.

    But I’ve come to see the Church’s teachings as nonsense. I truly hope that the mother and doctors also see it as nonsense, or eventually will come to see it as nonsense as the result of the Church’s contemptible stance in this case.

    If the mother or doctors suffer in any way from the Church’s threat of excommunication, then that’s yet another layer of offense committed by the Church.

  275. #275 Mariana
    March 5, 2009

    I’m Brazilian. Just got home and went through some news sites to get the details. I didn’t read all the comments, but here are the answers to some questions I saw here, in case anyone’s interested:

    Yes, there is outrage from women’s rights groups, child protection groups, the Minister of Health, the Minister of the Environment (who is also one of the main leaders of the Green Party). Even theologians, for whatever that’s worth.

    No, there is no chance of the catholics putting any kind of effective pressure on for change in abortion laws. Those laws have recently been changed to make it *easier* for rape victims and women with high-risk pregnancies to have abortions. All they need is a doctor’s assessment.

    And no, it didn’t have to be both, “just” being a rape victim would have been enough.

    And the little girl and her mother were well assisted by doctors, therapists and social workers. She’s been relocated to the state capital and is being assisted by the government’s child protection services.

    Unfortunately the catholic fucktards still have political pull here, but we are making progress, as are other South American countries.

  276. #276 Anton Mates
    March 5, 2009

    Saying she was “allegedly” raped is demonstrably false.
    She. was. raped.

    Well, technically, she might have broken into a sperm bank with a turkey baster. I mean, she is female, and females are sinful and crazy, as we know.

    We shouldn’t make unkind assumptions like “rape.” That would be uncivil, and without civility, where would we be?

  277. #277 KAte
    March 5, 2009

    Thank you for the update, Mariana.

    I’m glad that little girl is getting the care she needs.

  278. #278 Twin-Skies
    March 5, 2009

    @Mariana

    Glad to hear that little girl’s doing well.

    It saddens me (okay, maybe the word I’m looking for is royally pisses me off) to realize that the South Americas – being former Spanish/Portugese colonies like my own country – seem to be making better headway when it comes to women’s reproductive rights.

    Church doesn’t need freethinkers to call them out on their retardation and hypocrisy – they’re doing a good job revealing it on their own.

  279. #279 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    thinking more about Jason, I realized just how difficult it really IS to get yourself excommunicated these days…

    so, if you’re really of a mind to STOP supporting the complete insanity that is the CC, here are some great instructions relating to how to get yourself excommunicated:

    http://www.angelfire.com/realm/shades/demons/biblic/howtogetexcommunicated.htm

    -You must ACT. Mere thought is not enough. You should be able to cite memberships in freethought and humanist groups. You should be able to cite actions you have taken, such as, letters written, demonstrations attended, meetings attended, magazine subscriptions, etc. As well as negative actions, like not attending church, not giving them any money, time or thought for years.

    -You must be PERSISTENT. This must take place over a long period of time. If at first you don’t succeed… Cite long commitment, and keep trying and keep writing.

    -You must be CONTUMACIOUS. As in: I am firm, you are contumacious, he is pigheaded. Do not waver or indicate any hesitation. It is not necessary to be impolite, but do not be unclear in your condemnation of Catholicism in order to avoid offense.

    -You must be AWARE that this involves excommunication. For them, ignorance of canon law is an excuse. State in your letter that you are aware of this, that you know what the consequences are and that this is what you wish to happen.

    -You have to BE A ROMAN CATHOLIC. Obviously.

    those of use who aren’t catholic at least can give moral support, though.
    ;)

  280. #280 Sarah
    March 5, 2009

    It may only be alleged that the stepfather is the one who raped her, but if we assume there was penetration/intercourse (very likely since she’s pregnant) it’s undeniable that she was raped and therefore she is a rape victim, not an alleged rape victim. Idiocy in main headline as well as subheadline.

  281. #281 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    Jesus slipped me the tongue once.

    Jesus was my co-pilot.

    …Then the plane crashed and I had to eat him to stay alive.

  282. #282 Hipstermama
    March 5, 2009

    Thanks for the update Mariana, it is nice to know that others are thinking instead of just following.

  283. #283 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    March 5, 2009

    Jesus was my co-pilot.
    …Then the plane crashed and I had to eat him to stay alive.

    Jesus is my co-pilot and we’re cruisin’ for pussy.

  284. #284 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    … btw, getting yourself excommunicated is not just and exercise in satisfying extremism.

    So long as you have EVER been a member, or if you were ever baptized by the CC, they count you as a member.

    you actually DO have to be excommunicated (and have the proof in writing) before they will remove you from the roster of “Member of the CC”.

    so, why wait? Follow the list I provided above and get yourself OFF of their “support list”.

    consider it a small gesture of hope for the future, where someday we will no longer hear of this obtuse and heinously destructive organization meddling in the affairs of loving, rational people everywhere.

  285. #285 Ragutis
    March 5, 2009

    Posted by: Brownian Author Profile Page | March 5, 2009 4:23 PM

    This is exactly what I was trying to say with satire.

    I quite liked your snark @ #32 and #85.

    If I ever have the pleasure of meeting you in person, my fellow formerly Catholic Lithuanian atheist, I’ll consider it an honour to buy you a, well, a ragutis!

    I’d be happy to accept, and happier still to reciprocate if I’m ever up in Edmonton. I don’t know if there’s any more of us on here, but if so, let’s invite them as well. And Sven, just for Trolis!!! Pozemyje!!! :)

    (Actually, I didn’t even know about the brand before I chose the nom-de-web. Now I sometimes feel like some hick going by the nick “Bud Wiser”. :p And I can’t even find it down here! Utenos, ?vyturys, Kalnapilis, a couple others, yup, but no Ragutis brews.)

    Thanks also, Jazmin and others that liked or identified with my words.

    OK, back to our regularly scheduled disgust, outrage and arguing over the use of “alleged”.

    Still no Petey? No Pilty?

  286. #286 Jim B
    March 5, 2009

    Knockgoats –

    Indeed, I misspelled Idi Amin’s name. That doesn’t negate the logic of my comment. The Catholic church has a long history and a very wide reach. If you integrate all malfeasance committed by the Church (however you want to measure it) it will be hard to top. My comment was that there have been other people and institutions that have been more intensely and consistently evil, even if the area under the curve of the past 2000 years is smaller.

    “So you do now admit it was a question”

    Don’t live in a black and white world. Yes, grammatically it was a question, but it was making a statement. Let me give another example that you aren’t so emotionally invested in:

    “Have you ever seen a movie worse than Ishtar?”

    It is a question. It is also making a statement.

    In looking at your other comments, I see that you are more interested in being snarky and smug than in having a real dialog.

  287. #287 Mariana
    March 5, 2009

    You’re welcome. I’m sure there’ll be a few good opinion pieces published in major newspapers in the next few days, too.

    @Twin-Skies:

    Where are you from?

    Well, yes, some progress has been made, but I’m afraid it still might be a while before abortions are completely legalized. But having grown up during the military dictatorship, I can see what a long way we’ve come already in terms of individual freedoms, so…I remain optimistic.

  288. #288 Lilith
    March 5, 2009

    And what’s to bet that the Church is more than happy to grant absolution to the step-father, who ‘allegedly’ was also abusing the child’s 14 year old intellectually disabled sister for years, as well. Reports I read claim he had been raping the 9-year-old since she was six.

  289. #289 Twin-Skies
    March 5, 2009

    @Mariana

    Philippines.

    Like Brazil, we’ve also come out of a relatively recent military regime, only to have a lot of the old politicos rise back into power.

    What’s worse is that they activley coddle the agenda of the Catholic church to retain their foothold, hence explaining the conservative policies in place.

  290. #290 SC, OM
    March 5, 2009

    That doesn’t negate the logic of my comment.

    No, the stupidity of your comment did that.

    The Catholic church has a long history and a very wide reach. If you integrate all malfeasance committed by the Church (however you want to measure it) it will be hard to top.

    The evidence of which was surely the basis of his question. And yet you tried to dismiss it as “hysterical.”

    My comment was that there have been other people and institutions that have been more intensely and [?] consistently evil, even if the area under the curve of the past 2000 years is smaller.

    I believe you’re misunderstanding what he meant by “consistently,” which seemed fairly evident to others of us.

  291. #291 donna
    March 5, 2009

    So many tragedies — a nine year old even being fertile. Environmental estrogens?? An asshole who would rape a nine year old? Is he in jail, please? That the Catholic church has a public voice on this at all, and that it is against a child not being forced to have children. Just sad, sad, sad all around.

    Our world is so messed up, on so many levels.

  292. #292 PMaL 666
    March 5, 2009

    As a Erisian Antipope (I normally post here in one of my alter-egos under the style of Maledict the DCLXVIth) I would happily and freely dispense an “excommunication” to Jason and anyone else on this thread desirous of one – though of course this wouldn’t actually effect anything in respect of the Catlicks. They incidentally hold that baptism is indelible, so that after being excommunicated you’re still regarded a Christain* and a Catlick, but regarded as anathema.

    However, the community of excommunicants is a bit of a rogue’s gallery: along with King Henry VIII and Elizabeth I of England, you also have Martin Luther, Napoleon, Juan Péron, Fidel Castro, and the schismatic Abp Marcel Lefebvre whose followers, including the vile piece of work known as Bp Richard Williamson, were recommunicated last year after 20 years of being personæ non grata.

    As for ideas to promote one’s excommunication: well, heresy, blasphemy, and desecration (à la Crackergate) are usually fairly good starts. Of course, the procuring of an abortion is also one of the actions that is viewed as automatically deserving of excommunication. I’d guess that writing to the local Catlick authorities isn’t likely to work, as they may see it as an opportunity to preach back at you in hope of reconciliation.

    I would also like anyone who even thinks of defending the usage of the word “alleged” to:
    1: read post by Francis @ #209
    2: read post by Flameduck @ #256
    3: STFU, the point’s already been done to death already and is getting in the way of the main story here.

    Finally, I would like to proclaim my utter disgust and contempt at the inhumanity and lack of basic compassion and morality so evident in the words and actions of the so-called “religious authorities” mentioned in the story. To quote the Hitch: “religion poisons everything”.

    Regards, Philip

    * this was an accidental typo (thanks for the cooties Rev. DBC), but looking at the inadvertent last five letters of the word I obtained, I couldn’t think of a reason to correct it.

  293. #293 Pierce R. Butler
    March 5, 2009

    Brownian @ # 218: Dollars to doughnuts if some group started shoving Catholics around the world in ovens they’d abandon the “God works in mysterious ways” line in a fucking heartbeat.

    Uh, it’s already been done. Depending on the source, a certain group shoved from 1.5 to 3 million Polish Catholics in ovens, 1939-1945. Not only did the Vatican continue the “mysterious ways” schtick, it actively colluded/colludes in the cover-up.

  294. #294 Chad
    March 5, 2009

    Side Note: The age of sexual consent in Vatican City is 12 years old.

  295. #295 SC, OM
    March 5, 2009
  296. #296 Blue Girl
    March 5, 2009

    Jesus. Fucking. Christ. I think I’m going to be sick. Where was their “god” when the sick fuck was raping that little girl?

    Fuck religion. All of ‘em. And all the weak-minded dupes who buy into superstition.

  297. #297 Monimonika
    March 5, 2009

    I just visited the link to the TheologiansCafe discussion in comment # 193.

    I only went through about 5 pages of comments, and I saw many say that they (reluctantly) agree that abortion is the best option in this case. But then you know what I saw next? A few of the same people who had at first said they agree with having an abortion then learned that the girl was 4 months pregnant, and CHANGED THEIR MINDS.

    Quote: “She is already four months along…a few more weeks would probably not make much difference at this point. It would give the babies a chance though.”

    Sick fucks.

  298. #298 SC, OM
    March 5, 2009

    Where’s Ken Suffering-Is-Necessary “Why bother to heal when there is no sickness, why help the poor and sick and disabled when they do not exist, and why face difficulties with courage when there are no such difficulties?” Miller, anyway?

    http://rationallyspeaking.blogspot.com/2009/02/ken-miller-responds-to-massimo-and-vice.html

  299. #299 Mariana
    March 5, 2009

    @donna

    Yes, he is in jail.

    @Twin-Skies

    Oh, duh, of course. Sorry, I am braindead after eight hours of work and then coming home to this insanity.

    I don’t know much about your history, but you guys have definitely had a tougher time politically in recent years. I guess you need at least a sense of lasting stability before you can successfully push for social progress.

    And yeah, all the religious disputes tend to be an impediment for exactly that kind of stability.

    Oh the other hand, *a lot* went on, and all very recent, so there’s every reason to keep your hopes up.

  300. #300 Happy Kiwi
    March 5, 2009

    If I can imagine any bright spot from this cess pit, it is that the Catholic Church is yet again demonstrating its insensitivity and irrelevance. Many right-thinking people must be sickened by this. One can only hope it is another nail in the CC’s whited sepulchre.

  301. #301 Ichthyic
    March 5, 2009

    Not only did the Vatican continue the “mysterious ways” schtick, it actively colluded/colludes in the cover-up.

    pardon the lame pun but…

    Denial: not just a river in Egypt.

  302. #302 Phrogge
    March 5, 2009

    Even worse, if possible: I googled for further info, and found some articles headlined “9 year old Brazilian girl pregnant with twins is forced to have an abortion.” “FORCED,” for-effing-sooth!!

    And one commenter on the site says “Did she, or her parents or guardian, ask for a second opinion? Maybe they could have been delivered by C-section. Maybe they could have waited a bit to determine if she was really stresses that much. It’s a shame to kill two little babies-to-be.”

    Three would be better?? Catholic or fundie, the mind(less)-set appears the same. Rational minds boggle.

  303. #303 Monado
    March 5, 2009

    Some girls mature awfully young. There’s been a bit of a rush of girls getting their period at eight or nine. The youngest mother gave birth by Caesarian section at age five, in 1939 . As I doubt that any of her classmates were virile, it was a big clue that she had been molested by an adult. The next youngest was an eight-year-old who had been raped by her cousins.

  304. #304 plum grenville
    March 5, 2009

    It seems to me that the Archbishop should have excommunicated the girl too, assuming she wasn’t forced to have the abortion. Doesn’t the Catholic Church consider 7 the age of responsibility for committing sins? Or would that have been TOO outrageous even for them?

    On the “alleged” thing – yes, it’s used mindlessly, even when the facts are perfectly clear. Newspapers will say it even when their own reporter saw the event. There are situations in which the facts are so clear that it is annoyingly obtuse and a disservice to readers to imply otherwise. The fear of a libel suit is often completely unrealistic.

    I’m not saying that it’s perfectly clear here that the stepfather is the rapist, since we haven’t been told what the evidence against him is. Statistically, it’s extremely likely that he did it, but I could visualize a situation in which the girl is pressured by the real rapist or perhaps a family member who wants to protect the real rapist into accusing someone else.

  305. #305 Monado
    March 5, 2009

    You’re right, this is sloppy use of language by people who are trying to do the right thing: and so we have alleged robberies, alleged assaults, and alleged rapes.

    And if you’d like to check out Wikipedia’s list of youngest mothers, can I put in a plea for everyone to get their girls to karate classes starting about age five? Or eight? Or as young as the girls will stand for? Thank you.

    “Fight like a buzz-saw, then outrun the bastards.”

  306. #306 'Tis Himself
    March 5, 2009

    Pierce R. Butler

    The oven stuffing wasn’t done because they were Catholics, it was done because they were Polish untermensch.

  307. #307 Monado in Toronto
    March 5, 2009

    Sarniaskeptic, just write them a letter denying the Holy Spirit. Or desecrate a cracker. Tell them they can keep their woman-hating church and their secret directives excommunicating everyone who admits that their priests raped children.

    It’s interesting that the RC church thinks it has standing to make any comments at all. What part of “Butt out!” don’t they understand.

    I stayed at work too late and I need to go to bed so I can get up and go back to work tomorrow, and this is not the note of cheerful raillery that I want to go to bed on.

  308. #308 Bing McGhandi
    March 5, 2009

    Jesus. Did Archbishop Raymond Burke get transferred to Brazil?

    HJ

  309. #309 Monado
    March 5, 2009

    Just the fact that her mother apparently had to go to court to get permission to get the girl an abortion would add to the stress of being raped & pregnant. And then she’ll have the fucking church telling her she’s evil for getting rid of the pregnancy.

    I really wish there were some way to give the rapist and the priests and their lawyers the same amount of physical and mental suffering. Automagically. If there were a god… that’s the kind of thing that would happen.

  310. #310 Silvia
    March 5, 2009

    I am Brazilian and I just would like to clear some things:

    Firstly the age of consent in Brazil is 14 and not 18, as is stated in coment #256, but that doesn’t change the situation.

    Secondly, the headlines about the alleged rape is an American thing and the journalist certainly wouldn’t need to be concerned about libel. The rapist is Brazilian and poor, he wouldn’t accuse anyone of libel, he wouldn’t even know about that. The most important newspaper in Rio de Janeiro had the following headline (my translation)
    9 year old girl raped by her stepfather has an abortion
    And the next line:
    Catholic Church threatens to sue the mother of the victim for pregnancy interruption, even if it was legal

    Thirdly Abortion is legal in Brazil in cases of rape (until the 20th week of pregnancy) and when the life of the mother is endangered by the pregnancy. Recently it has been accepted that abortion can be made in cases when the fetus won’t ever be able to live outside the mother’s body (mainly anencephalia cases). So the Catholic church doesn’t have any chance of winning in any Court. The girl was raped and her life was in danger – both situations make it legal

    Fourthly Brazilian is a deep religious country, but not in the sense some here are meaning it. Most people in Brazil are believers in belief and they don’t trust atheists, but that doesn’t mean they give a s*** to what RCC tells them to do. Reading Livejournal I am surprised to see how many people really goes to churches on Sundays. In Brazil, most people I know who say they are catholic only go to church on weddings and christenings and perhaps on Christmas or Easter, actually not even that. The women use contraceptive methods like IUD and the pill, a lot of them have sex before marriage, people divorce and remarry, even if all those things are forbidden by the church. Most of them don’t even know exactly what the RCC considers to be sin or not. But they are religious in the sense that they light candles for saints, make promises, pray a dozen of Hail Marys for achieving their goals. A large of the population also make a big mixture of Catholic and African Myths. You can see in every big town stores that sell images of saints and all the paraphernalia to worship African deities. the stores sell both those things and the people that buy them are the same. The African Deities are called either by their original name or by the name of Catholic saints. Ogum becomes St George, Iemanjá becomes several different versions of Our Lady and the same happens to Oxum. Oh, and the same occurs to many other “orixás” (the deities of Candomblé – the most common African religion in Brazil).

    All this just to say the power of the RCC over the Brazilian people is much smaller than you might think, just looking at the stats on the number of Catholics. The RCC is always trying to have influence on law, but it has failed a lot. Some laws they fought against, but nonetheless were approved: divorce, embryo stem cell research, government sponsored abortion in cases of rape. Also the government distributes IUDs, pills and condoms, makes advertisements on the use of condom to prevent AIDs and many other things like that. RCC complains and whines, but the government goes on. Actually I should say governments because several governments of different parties have done that.

  311. #311 Silvia
    March 5, 2009

    I am Brazilian and I just would like to clear some things:

    Firstly the age of consent in Brazil is 14 and not 18, as is stated in comment #256, but that doesn’t change the situation.

    Secondly, the headlines about the alleged rape is an American thing and the journalist certainly wouldn’t need to be concerned about libel. The rapist is Brazilian and poor, he wouldn’t accuse anyone of libel, he wouldn’t even know about that. The most important newspaper in Rio de Janeiro had the following headline (my translation)
    Raped by stepfather 9 year old girl has an abortion
    And the next line:
    Catholic Church threatens to sue the mother of the victim for pregnancy interruption, even if it was legal

    Thirdly Abortion is legal in Brazil in cases of rape (until the 20th week of pregnancy) and when the life of the mother is endangered by the pregnancy. Recently it has been accepted that abortion can be made in cases when the fetus won’t ever be able to live outside the mother’s body (mainly anencephalia cases). So the Catholic church doesn’t have any chance of winning in any Court. The girl was raped and her life was in danger – both situations make it legal

    Fourthly Brazilian is a deep religious country, but not in the sense some here are meaning it. Most people in Brazil are believers in belief and they don’t trust atheists, but that doesn’t mean they give a s*** to what RCC tells them to do. Reading Livejournal I am surprised to see how many people really goes to churches on Sundays. In Brazil, most people I know who say they are catholic only go to church on weddings and christenings and perhaps on Christmas or Easter, actually not even that. The women use contraceptive methods like IUD and the pill, a lot of them have sex before marriage, people divorce and remarry, even if all those things are forbidden by the church. Most of them don’t even know exactly what the RCC considers to be sin or not. But they are religious in the sense that they light candles for saints, make promises, pray a dozen of Hail Marys for achieving their goals. A large of the population also make a big mixture of Catholic and African Myths. You can see in every big town stores that sell images of saints and all the paraphernalia to worship African deities. the stores sell both those things and the people that buy them are the same. The African Deities are called either by their original name or by the name of Catholic saints. Ogum becomes St George, Iemanjá becomes several different versions of Our Lady and the same happens to Oxum. Oh, and the same occurs to many other “orixás” (the deities of Candomblé – the most common African religion in Brazil).

    All this just to say the power of the RCC over the Brazilian people is much smaller than you might think, just looking at the stats on the number of Catholics. The RCC is always trying to have influence on law, but it has failed a lot. Here are examples of some laws it fought against, but nonetheless were approved: divorce, embryo stem cell research, government sponsored abortion in cases of rape. Also the government distributes IUDs, pills and condoms, makes advertisements on the use of condom to prevent AIDs and many other things like that. RCC complains and whines, but the government goes on. Actually I should say governments because several governments of different parties have done that.

  312. #312 Monado
    March 5, 2009

    Jason, you’re in luck! March 8 is International Women’s Day, so there should be a parade celebrating it somewhere near you. Check with local unions if women’s groups are hard to find. Use them to locate the women’s groups and march with a pro-choice group with a big sign that says “Fuck the Catholic Church!” or “Thank God for abortion!” or “Keep your Dogma off our bodies”. Get someone to take a picture of you holding your sign and wearing a coathanger around your neck. Send it to the Church along with your letter.

    Or “What did Jesus say about abortion? NOTHING.”

    Otherwise you’ll probably have to wait til Labor day unless there are some clinic defenses you can join in or some “Tax the Church!” rallies.

    Good luck!

  313. #313 Silvia
    March 5, 2009

    Sorry for the double post. I thought I had canceled the first.

    I just wanted to add the the stepfather confessed his crime. Confession isn’t really a proof, but in this case I don’t think there is much ground for doubting he was the one who raped her.

  314. #314 Katkinkate
    March 5, 2009

    Posted by: Jason @ 121 “I sent this to my local archbishop:…. I do not wish to be in any way affiliated with your madness. I was wondering if there were any way I might go about being excommunicated as well, as my way of showing support for the poor family the catholic church chooses to mindlessly torment. I am an atheist, and will cheerfully blaspheme to any extent necessary if that will aid in securing your assistanc ein this matter. Regards, Jason”

    :() You have got to let us know if you get a reply!

  315. #315 chgo_liz
    March 5, 2009

    Chad @ #294:

    Side Note: The age of sexual consent in Vatican City is 12 years old.

    Is that for boys, too? /snark

    The fact that the stepfather isn’t being threatened with excommunication is the piece de resistance for me. How evil and immoral do you have to be to punish crime victims and the people who come to their aid (good Samaritans, in fact) but not the criminal?

    The Catholic church is so pro-rape and pro-death for children that it would rather have 3 dead under the age of 10 (2 fetuses and the rape victim) than just the two fetuses…that’s old hat. “Punishing” the medical workers for saving a child’s life…yep, that’s normal too. Those crimes are all in a day’s work for the Catholic church. But no censure, no comment about the (alleged) criminal who (allegedly) raped and (allegedly) put his 9-year-old stepdaughter in imminent danger of death really ticks me off.

    I’m amazed that anything about the Catholic church could faze me anymore, but I guess I’m getting soft in my old age.

  316. #316 Slaughter
    March 5, 2009

    Silvia

    No apology necessary. Your post was very enlightening.

  317. #317 gma
    March 5, 2009

    To be consistent with its long tradition as the world’s largest pedophilia institution, the roman catholic church has a moral obligation to defend the step-father who we – immoral god-less people – naively would call a rapist or pedophile.

    However, since the roman catholic church does not like to publicly acknowledge their tradition of institutionalized pedophilia, they conveniently prefer to let this 9-year old girl get killed by her own pregnancy than to abort the twins and are making this the moral issue of the day.

    Many of you believe that this is the worst you have seen.

    It is not. The same roman catholic church is doing things millions of times worse!

    That roman catholic church claims that condoms are immoral because they kill babies. I can picture a baby accidentally putting a plastic grocery bag over its head and suffocating but, for the life of me, I cannot see how a baby would do the same with a condom. Can you?

    Many people in Africa will not use condoms because the roman catholic church tells them that they will go to hell when they do use them. Conveniently the bush administration colluded with the roman catholic church to ensure that supply of condoms to Africa remains limited.

    Because of unprotected sex (human nature cannot be stopped by bishops), HIV has become an epidemic of epic proportions.

    Now get this:

    Every year, 1.6 million people die in Africa of AIDS. That is equivalent to 1.5 “nine-elevens” every day year after year.

    Simply immoral.

    Another proof that religion poisons everything.

  318. #318 Pierce R. Butler
    March 5, 2009

    ‘Tis Himself @ # 306: The oven stuffing wasn’t done because they were Catholics, it was done because they were Polish untermensch[en].

    Generally true, but it bears noting that (a) priests, monks, nuns, etc, were sought out with special attention as community leaders and therefore potential nuclei of resistance; (b) the Vatican refused to speak out against the massacre of “their own people” (even printing an obituary for Bishop Wetmanski in their own paper which neglected to mention he died in Auschwitz); and (c) Pope Pius XII apparently felt it was more important that Hitler was fervently anti-Bolshevik, so that the sacrifice of 1-3 million pawns was preferable to stopping the Godless Commies.

    Mysterious ways, yeah.

  319. #319 Pierce R. Butler
    March 5, 2009

    (ahem) … Pius XII apparently felt … that the sacrifice of 1-3 million pawns was an acceptable trade for stopping the Godless Commies. …

  320. #320 Joel Klinepeter
    March 6, 2009

    Wow, reading what the church thought a raped 9 year old should go through made me want to vomit…

  321. #321 Janine, Insulting Sinner
    March 6, 2009

    Here’s hoping the young girl is able to have a half way normal life. And I hope she never forgets nor forgive the love and concern the RCC has shown her.

    I cannot figure out which I find more contemptible, the rapist step-father or the RCC.

  322. #322 mothwentbad
    March 6, 2009

    Jesus fucking Christ. Millstones. Get them. The sea is hungry.

  323. #323 Raul the Catholic Priest
    March 6, 2009

    We, the Catholic clergy, only diddle, and doddle, with little boys so this kind of stuff won’t happen. Since God doesn’t strike us down, we take that as his tacit approval of our boy love. That rapist was dumb and should have raped a little boy.

  324. #324 deedee
    March 6, 2009

    And they say atheism is an absurd idea?????

  325. #325 Twin-Skies
    March 6, 2009

    Hmm, another Brazilian’s clarifying on what may happen to the perp (http://www.newsvine.com/_news/2009/03/04/2505563-brazil-girl-alleged-incest-victim-aborts-twins):

    Except for the “big boys” in the Roman Catholic hierarchy, everyone here is feeling very, very sorry for the little girl. It seems she has been consistently molested since the age of 6, and her elder sister, 14 years old and mentally retarded, was also the target of their 23 year old stepfather’s lust. The neighbours tried to kill him when they found out — he has been transferred to another town.

    It gets better…

    He is already imprisoned, and hopefully will remain that way. Brazil has a terrible track-record for convicting “white-collar crimes” (if you’re rich and you steal from the poor, you’re probably going to get off with it), but rapist are treated very severely. Men who rape children are usually killed by their fellow-prisoners.

    Schadenfreude.

  326. #326 Alan Kellogg
    March 6, 2009

    This is posted to a long thread. So long I really don’t have the time to read it all. Keep that in mind as you read what follows.

    1. Nine year olds can and do agree to sex all the time. The great majority of the time with other nine year olds. They can and do agree to sex because they don’t understand the consequences, and are incapable of understanding the consequences. That is one of the consequences of innocence, being able to engage in behaviors because you can’t understand why they are wrong.

    2. The abuse started when she was six. Abuse carried out by her stepfather. All else aside, her stepfather engaged in abusing his authority. Even if sex had not been involved it would still be abuse. Even if she had agreed to the sex, it would still be abuse. What makes his actions abusive is the difference in ages, size, and his position of authority over her.

    3. The events in question occurred in a culture where sex between young children and adults is actively discouraged. Even when the child agrees to it, you don’t do it. It is up to you, the grown-up, to behave in a manner that benefits the child. Sex with a small child harms that child.

    4. Grown women of 80 pounds weight have successfully borne children. A successful pregnancy is not just a matter of weight.

    In short; her step father used his position of authority to have sex with the girl. That is rape by coercion. In addition, she was too young emotionally and physically to bear children safely. The crime here was a betrayal of trust, all else followed from that betrayal.

  327. #327 mwa mwa
    March 6, 2009

    PZ Myers: ‘You don’t really need to say more than that.’

    327 comments later…

  328. #328 Tilia
    March 6, 2009

    the little girl was even excommunicated. Not that this really matters, but maybe it does for her. As far as I understood it, that was a decision of the Church in Brazil. Maybe it helps to complain about it in Rome.

    It was quite difficult to find an email-address, but maybe the one of the Pontifical Council for the Family: pcfI@family.va

    could be right.

  329. #329 Knockgoats
    March 6, 2009

    In looking at your other comments, I see that you are more interested in being snarky and smug than in having a real dialog. – Jim B.

    Only when dealing with idiots, such as you. Yes of course my question had an implicit presupposition – that the Roman Catholic hierarchy (note that I specified the hierarchy) has been consistently evil over the course of centuries. You have not challenged that (nor has anyone else), so I take it you agree. If you don’t, we can argue about it. My question, however, was a genuine one: can anyone think of anything that has a worse centuries-long record? As I noted in a later comment, there are many social formations that have lasted centuries; but I couldn’t think of one that has been more consistently evil over such a span of time than the Catholic hierarchy. You have not suggested any, nor has anyone else.

  330. #330 DJav
    March 6, 2009

    The Brazilian doctors who helped that poor little kid have been excommunicated by the Brazilian Roman Catholic Church, according to my local newspaper.

    http://www.criticadigital.com/index.php?secc=nota&nid=19839

  331. #331 Twin-Skies
    March 6, 2009

    @DJav

    The Roman Catholic Church: Shooting ourselves in the foot, one toe at a time.

    Out of curiosity, how will this affect their standing normal everyday in Brazilian society?

  332. #332 AKobold
    March 6, 2009

    @ Endor #8:

    I don’t understand how any person could be a part of this psychotic religion.

  333. #333 Lycosid
    March 6, 2009

    OMFG It’s OK as long as she marries him.

  334. #334 AKobold
    March 6, 2009

    I just saw this on the local news yesterday. I was wondering how long it would take to show up here.
    And it was not long at all – kudos PZ!

  335. #335 Anonymous Coward
    March 6, 2009

    This story is so depressing. And this isn’t even Islam, this is the familiar Catholic Church… I guess when they beatified Mother Teresa they did mean it after all. 2009… wasn’t 2000 supposed to be the Year of the Future? Oh the poor girl… Sorry if I’m decohering, but I simply can’t line my thoughts up straight.

  336. #336 fcaccin
    March 6, 2009

    But Marcio Miranda, a lawyer for the Archdiocese of Olinda…

    You might be amused by the fact that “marcio” is the Italian word for “rotten”.

  337. #337 Gilian
    March 6, 2009

    *My question, however, was a genuine one: can anyone think of anything that has a worse centuries-long record*

    Alcohol and Drugs ? :)

    I.e Religion & Substance abuse, humanity’s built in self destruct mechanism.

  338. #338 Mike K
    March 6, 2009

    Anyone know if there is a way to help this poor girl?
    A paypal site where one can donate, that sort of thing?

  339. #339 Silvia
    March 6, 2009

    http://oglobo.globo.com/pais/cidades/mat/2009/03/05/medicos-adiam-alta-de-menina-de-9-anos-submetida-aborto-754704911.asp

    Just updating the news, not only the doctors, but also the mother of the girl were excommunicated. the girl wasn’t (she said she wanted the children). The Minister of Health – José Gomes Temporão – stated that the RCC’s decision was “radical and inadequate” and added:

    “É uma questão que está na lei, a menina foi violentada. Tá na lei e está resolvido, o resto é opinião da Igreja. Essa posição não tem respaldo algum. Eu fiquei impactado. Levar a gravidez adiante traria risco à vida dela.”

    My translation:
    “It is legal matter, the girl was violated. It is on the law and it is a done deal, the rest is the Church’s opinion. That position doesn’t have any legal support. It had quite an impact on me. Going on with the pregnancy would put the girl’s life at risk.”

    Dr. Fátima Maia, the responsible doctor said (it is on the printed newspaper, not the online version of it):

    “Sou católica, mas dirijo uma entidade que está habilitada a fazer o aborto legal. Teria feito novamente. Se não fosse assim, essa criança poderia no mínimo ficar estéril, ou até morrer.”

    My translation:

    “I am Catholic, but I’m director of an entity that is capacitated to make legal abortion. I would have done it again. If it weren’t done, this child could become sterile, at the minimum, or even die.”

    The Minister of Environment reaction (he is not a religious person and certainly not a Catholic):
    “Como cidadão eu fiquei revoltado com essa posição da Igreja. Exatamente nessa hora que as pessoas precisam de conforto a Igreja vem criminalizar a vítima. É uma coisa medieval”

    “As a citizen, I was outraged with this position of the Church. Exactly at this moment, when people need comfort, The Church comes and criminalizes the victim. It’s a medieval thing.”

    The newspaper’s reaction (O GLOBO’s) – Just FYI, this journal usually is much respectful of RCC’s opinion and treats it with much more deference than any other religious spokespeople in Brazil.

    “Na questão do aborto na menina de 9 anos engravidada pelo padastro, o entendimento da reação violenta da Igreja fica ainda mais difícil diante das circunstâncias.”

    My translation:
    “On the matter of the abortion made on the 9 year old impregnated by her stepfather girl, it is still more difficult to understand the violent reaction of the Church, in face of circumstances.”

    Just so that you can see the reactions here in Brazil. On the “opinion of the readers” part of the newspaper, there are five messages, all of them against the Archbishop.

  340. #340 silvia
    March 6, 2009

    Oh, aftermy post I noticed that there is an op-ed article named “Faith and Intolerance”. It is by a Catholic woman, a journalist and she says (my translation – forgive my English)

    “Believing or not the life begins since conception is an inner private matter and each one’s belief is not to be debated at large.”
    “In the case at Pernambuco [that's the Brazilian state where it happened], what isa case of public interest is the Catholic church’s atittude of punishing, at the legal and religious levels, those who acted supported by law, common sense and medical reccomendations. The absurd, the coward, the unacceptable is the idea of using faith to punish those who try to allow that a nine-year-old child gather the remains of her broken childhood.”

    As I said yesterday the power of RCC in Brazil is much smaller than people might think, just looking at religious stats. People are members of the Catholic Church because they are batized and make the main rituals, but they feel quite comfortable to say their inner beliefs are different from the precepts or RCC.

  341. #341 Livia
    March 6, 2009

    I´m brazilian and I´m ashamed to live in the a country where a arschbishop did that.

    I was born a catholic (against my will) and I became an atheist 3 years ago. I´ve never been so right in my life.

  342. #342 'Tis Himself
    March 6, 2009

    Silva,

    Thank you for the information and translations. Don’t apologize for your English, it’s very good.

  343. #343 Endor
    March 6, 2009

    “will you knock off this “rape apologist” bullshit? Nobody on this thread is a rape apologist.”

    Actually, repeatedly making up hypothetical situations in which this *wouldn’t* be rape, or all the reasons we shouldn’t be calling it rape, exactly, because of [insert hypothetical situation here], etc. is rape-apologetics. Which a number of commenters did. They might not like being called out for engaging in rape-apologetics, but that’s exactly what they did.

    ___

    “I don’t understand how any person could be a part of this psychotic religion.”

    Agreed. I typed “women” specifically because religion seems to be a much shittier deal for women.

  344. #344 Dave
    March 6, 2009

    It seems to me that the Archbishop should have excommunicated the girl too, assuming she wasn’t forced to have the abortion. Doesn’t the Catholic Church consider 7 the age of responsibility for committing sins? Or would that have been TOO outrageous even for them?

    Well, as Silvia pointed out, the mother appears to have made the decision in this case. However, I dont think the Church really cares about the girl. This isnt about these fetuses, its about sending a message to doctors: “You do an abortion, you will get excommunicated.” As well as to other parents. This is intimidation, pure and simple. If the Church really cared about the “killing” of these fetuses, they would also excommunicate at least all murderers, but I dont see them doing that. Hell, given that the girls life was at risk, this isnt even necessarily a case of murder, but simply a “killing” possibly justified, so they should excommunicate all killers, including police and soldiers who have killed in the line of duty. But no, they single out this poor child and the people surrounding her. That makes it not a moral stance, but an attempt to achieve a political goal via intimidation.

  345. #345 Kate
    March 6, 2009

    You know, the comment I made in re: Rape Apologetics was really very general, directed at no one in particular and did not mention which commenters I felt were engaging in apologetics….

    I did notice, however, that some people thought those comments were directed at them, despite no indication of such a thing.

    Now, you could say that they were lumping me in with those who did specify who and what they were referring to, but I am of the mind that those who replied to my comment with “BUT I’M NOT! WAHHHHHH!” are actually dishonest, disgusting cretins who were acting as rape apologists, knew that they were engaging in apologetics re: child rape and are trying to somehow justify their disgusting, hateful, misogynist views but don’t actually have the fortitude or conviction to state their position in plain English.

    In other words: You fucking weak-willed weasels. You can’t have it both ways, you fucking freaks. Your arguments sound like the bullshit you hear in the first few therapy sessions with convicted paedophiles. If you are arguing that this child “might not be a victim of rape” I hope you look back on this thread when you have daughters who reach the age of nine so you can wallow in the same sense of disgust I feel when I read your words.

  346. #346 Pierce R. Butler
    March 6, 2009

    Knockgoats @ # 329: … can anyone think of anything that has a worse centuries-long record?

    The only candidate which comes to mind would require that we consider “the military” (of certain nations or empires, or in general) as a continuous institution.

    (OMG – Pierce R. Butler doesn’t support the troops!!!1!)

  347. #347 DammPam
    March 6, 2009

    Damm them for doing so wrong so evil by this little girl in the year 2009 . Thankyou to those who protect her now .

    Ponderings of a nearly nine year old girl .
    Just before sleep time tonight conversation with daughter .
    I love you mummy , love you too baby .. Is tommorrow no school day ? Yes its Saturday . Yeah its Millies birthday party day . Yumm birthday cake and Millie is just going to love her snuggle present .. Whats it like mummy to be nine ? Will she be different ? Will she still have her snuggle bear and her nite light , will she still wear floaties in the pool , wow Millies a big 9 . Nine years old , how many days is that ?
    .. I can’t wait its only a year from being double figures a big ten .. Will Millie still have her trainer wheels on her bike ? Not fair I hate being eight , wish I could be nine , just like Millie ..its a whole year older than eight , joke mummy .. Why was 6 so sad ? Because 7 ate 9 hahahaha…. Go to sleep time baby , nine will come quickly I say with tears flowing .. Love you baby .. sleep tight . Love you mummy . Love you snuggle bear . Love you mummy ..

  348. #348 Jeff Eyges
    March 6, 2009

    @Chad #294: Side Note: The age of sexual consent in Vatican City is 12 years old.

    Only for boys!

  349. #349 Marvol
    March 6, 2009

    Not sure if this has been mentioned (no time to read thru hundreds of posts) but…

    I thought it was rather SAD (as opposed to uplifting) to see that this has drawn criticism “from women’s rights groups”.

    WTF?

    I would, if this happened in any civilised country, expect outrage from EVERYBODY. Not just those people of one gender who also happen to be a member of one certain activist movement. Male catholics especially should be out on the streets marching and protesting, to show that they want to have NOTHING to do with these nutcases of the archdiocese.

    If really ONLY women’s rights groups are in an upheaval, that makes me think Brazil is a sorry country indeed.

  350. #350 Cyberdraco
    March 6, 2009

    This re-affirms my contentment with being born in America and further enrages my disgust with religion,backwards countries, and humans with no sense of worldly morals.

    The step father should be hung,shot,and cremated; the church and its members supporting excommunication need a good slap in the face.

  351. #351 Drosera
    March 6, 2009

    Livia @ #341:

    I´m brazilian and I´m ashamed to live in the a country where a arschbishop did that.

    You made an amusing little typo here (should have been ?archbishop?). ?Arsch? is German for ?ass?. Yes, an arschbishop is exactly what he is.

  352. #352 B.T. Murtagh
    March 6, 2009

    Posted by: Sarniaskeptic | March 5, 2009 2:56 PM

    Holy Fuck! This is my opportunity – I really want to be taken off the Catholic register. Can I add my name to the list of people who helped her with the abortion? I really want to be ex-communicated!

    Tsk, tsk, you didn’t pay attention in Religious Education class did you? You can excommunicate yourself simply by not going to Mass. If you don’t attend at minimum Easter and Christmas Mass in any given year you’re automatically off the rolls that the RCC doesn’t keep.

  353. #353 uppity cracka
    March 6, 2009

    Why aren’t there any fundies posting a vehement defense of the church in this matter? where’s the outrage at all the outrage?!!

  354. #354 Janine, Insulting Sinner
    March 6, 2009

    I tried to get the Rookie to comment on this. He gave the lame no true christian cope out.

  355. #355 Phyllis
    March 6, 2009

    My favorite part is that there’s no way the “alleged-rapist” stepfather will ever be excommunicated. He wouldn’t even be excommunicated if he’d raped her and then killed her. He wouldn’t have been excommunicated if he’d raped her, kept her locked up in the basement until she gave birth, and then killed her children and then her. And, of course, he probably wouldn’t have been excommunicated if he’d raped her and then butchered her up in a home abortion, whether she “survived” it or not.

    But, had the girl not been 9, she too would have been excommunicated, in addition to everyone who helped to ensure her safety, health, and sanity.

    But then Mary was probably raped at 14, too. They have a habit of this, if you will.

  356. #356 GardenVarietyCrapologist
    March 6, 2009

    @Kate, #345:
    If you are arguing that this child “might not be a victim of rape” I hope you look back on this thread when you have daughters who reach the age of nine so you can wallow in the same sense of disgust I feel when I read your words.
    The distinction between rape and other forms of sexual misuse is not really uncommon. In the part of the world where I live, for some act to be rape, it usually must include violence, or the threat of such (*). If I do nothing more than adopt the definition of the criminal code of my country, I somehow automatically become a rape apologist by your standard. Now you might say, because English is the language of discourse, that some foreign criminal code does not matter. I would object to that: I very well have to use the English language idiomatically, but I do not have to use the specific term “statutory rape” because that one is not idiomatically used everywhere either.

    The term “informed consent” is a red herring in this matter. Rape depends on the will of the victim, not on the way he or she developed that will.

    *: The definition necessitates, roughly translated “the use of force/violence, the threat of violence, or the exploitation of a situation in which the victim must endure the actions of the perpetrator defenseless”.

  357. #357 shonny
    March 6, 2009

    Posted by: Pedantic Ass | March 5, 2009 4:56 PM #172

    Just my impression, or much more Ass than pedantic?

  358. #358 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    March 6, 2009

    In the part of the world where I live, for some act to be rape, it usually must include violence, or the threat of such (*).

    Using your definition above a child that is unable to give consent is enduring the actions of the perpetrator defensless.

    Or do you think that a child can give consent?

  359. #359 Italo M. R. Guedes
    March 6, 2009

    As a Brazilian agnostic and science blogger, I´d like to make two comments: I have no doubt the majority of Brazilian people were astonished and completely disagree with the opinion of the stupid catholic priest, even practicing catholics like my own wife; and that no word of excommunication towards the raper, who was the child’s own stepfather, was said. I don’t think there is any rational way to defend such a cruel and stupid institution as the Catholic Church.

  360. #360 Endor
    March 6, 2009

    “The distinction between rape and other forms of sexual misuse is not really uncommon. ”

    I’m not speaking for Kate, however in my own experience each and every time a discussion of rape begins on feminist blogs, there are always – without fail – a sudden uptick in male commenters who squabble about why x isn’t rape, or why y is to confusing, all in an effort (apparently) to see just how much they can get away with before they’re considered a rapist. it’s deeply disturbing.

    here, it was disturbing to see several people entertaining hypotheticals about how THIS situation might not be rape, for the obvious reasons.

    These are both forms of rape-apology. Which is not to suggest that in every instance the guy (and it’s always guys, in my experience) are setting out to come off as creepy. It’s likely just the result of having the privilege to not live with the specter of rape. Regardless, it’s still rape-apology and it needs to be pointed out so that it ceases to cloud the issue.

    Because clouding the issue is exactly what rape-apology does. It effectively derailed the discussion about the ACTUAL wrongdoers.

    “If I do nothing more than adopt the definition of the criminal code of my country, I somehow automatically become a rape apologist by your standard.”

    Actually, no, *you* wouldn’t be a rape-apologist, but the criminal code isn’t free of it. Criminal codes vis a vis rape are almost always (if not universally) flawed. In no small part because they fail to take into consideration all the instances in which violence plays no part at all. Refusing to acknowledge that could conceivably be rape-apologetics.

  361. #361 shonny
    March 6, 2009

    CornFlakes #326
    1. Nine year olds can and do agree to sex all the time. The great majority of the time with other nine year olds. They can and do agree to sex because they don’t understand the consequences, and are incapable of understanding the consequences. That is one of the consequences of innocence, being able to engage in behaviors because you can’t understand why they are wrong.

    Hmpf. Gegen die Dummheit . . . , and the rest doesn’t improve matters, Herr Dunderkopf Maisflocken!

  362. #362 AKobold
    March 6, 2009

    It actually got worse.
    After the archbishop excommunicated all the medical team that performed the abortion, a news reporter asked the archbishop if the stepfather (the rapist) would be excommunicated also – He replied that ‘his crime is not so severe to receive excommunication’!
    What the fuck!

  363. #363 the wholly none
    March 6, 2009

    I think that I am going to write to the bishop here and ask, “Suppose this had happened in Mississippi, what would your response be?” Maybe I will include a copy of my RCC baptismal certificate. Maybe I will get an answer, but don’t hold your breath.

  364. #364 Kate
    March 6, 2009

    @ Endor:

    You might as well be speaking for me, since you’ve made my point in a far less enraged manner than I can at this time. Thank you.

    @Crapologist:

    Wow. More apologetics. Yes, that’ll convince me you’re not an apologist for a child-raping, scum-sucking freak. Yessiree! I’m convinced! (That was sarcasm, btw.)

    Perhaps, Crapologist, you might like to take a few minutes to explain to me how Hitler wasn’t really a murderer, since there was no actual German law against exterminating whole populations of people at the time and it was an activity that was actually *encouraged* by the state. Care to give it a whirl?

  365. #365 GardenVarietyCrapologist
    March 6, 2009

    “In the part of the world where I live, for some act to be rape, it usually must include violence, or the threat of such (*).”
    Using your definition above a child that is unable to give consent is enduring the actions of the perpetrator defensless.

    I do not see how that follows. I am not a psychologist and can not say for sure that a child can/could defend itself against sexual abuse either (i.e. I can neither confirm nor reject your claim). All I can say is, that the law here distinguishes between rape and sexual child abuse (which can even include intercourse). So my claim is that people who distinguish between these two criminal acts use the word rape idiomatically (or at least with ample precedent) and thus should not be automatically called rape apologists.

    For reference, 3 sections from the local criminal code here, so you have the chance to discern the actual difference between rape and sexual child abuse yourself:
    http://bundesrecht.juris.de/stgb/__176.html (sexual child abuse)
    http://bundesrecht.juris.de/stgb/__176a.html (grave sexual child abuse, contains intercourse)
    http://bundesrecht.juris.de/stgb/__177.html (rape)

  366. #366 GardenVarietyCrapologist
    March 6, 2009

    “If I do nothing more than adopt the definition of the criminal code of my country, I somehow automatically become a rape apologist by your standard.”
    Actually, no, *you* wouldn’t be a rape-apologist, but the criminal code isn’t free of it. Criminal codes vis a vis rape are almost always (if not universally) flawed.

    Yes very true. Back when our criminal code was conceived rape was not even called “rape”. That has obviously been changed.

  367. #367 GardenVarietyCrapologist
    March 6, 2009

    Perhaps, Crapologist, you might like to take a few minutes to explain to me how Hitler wasn’t really a murderer, since there was no actual German law against exterminating whole populations of people at the time and it was an activity that was actually *encouraged* by the state.
    This can not really be explained since the assumption made, that there was no law against murder is wrong. One aspect of that assumption however is true, which I will gladly explain to you: Hitler changed the definition of murder so that the former requirement of “with deliberation” was removed and replaced by “lowly motives”. And the murderous acts of the SS against jews for example were explained to not be “lowly motivated”. Some details about this here:
    http://www.humboldt-forum-recht.de/druckansicht/druckansicht.php?artikelid=79
    I just googled that, I am not an legal practitioner.

    Of course every legal practitioner could see through this transparent measure. They did not speak out against this for other reasons.

    But what does this have to do with the distinction between rape and sexual child abuse?

    One further point, since I am now labeled a rape apologist too:
    Since the legal distinction between rape and sexual child abuse exists, I can choose to be a “rape apologist” or to be an apologist of “sexual child abuse”, but I can not ever be neither of these alternatives, according to your logic.

    Since, when I deny the legal classification of rape, I am a “rape apologist”. But when I affirm the legal classification of rape, I have to, out of logical necessity, deny the legal classification of “sexual child abuse”. So then I am an apologist of the latter.

  368. #368 Kate
    March 6, 2009

    Crapologist, I’m not going to bother wasting any more time discussing this with you. You’re probably one of the following:

    1) A philosophy student

    2) So fucking blinkered you can’t brush your teeth without stabbing yourself in the eye.

    If it’s #2, there’s hope for you. If it’s #1, I’m afraid you’re doomed to a lifetime of people telling you what a fucking twit you are.

  369. #369 dean
    March 6, 2009

    GardenVarietyCrapologist – there are some other possibilities for your description:

    immensely stupid
    morally empty
    congenital liar

    I suspect the intersection of these is the correct one.

  370. #370 Alan Kellogg
    March 6, 2009

    Shonny, #361

    You do have a talent for miscomprehension. Children are not adults, they do not think like adults. Expecting mature behavior out of the immature is like expecting a cat to stay out of the fish just because you said to.

    But what should I expect from a person who would defend the actions of a pedophile? (There oughta be an emoticon for what I’m doing here. :) )

  371. #371 nails
    March 7, 2009

    I think the fact that people are saying that she is ‘an alleged victim of incest’ instead of that she was RAPED and that her step father is the alleged rapist speaks volumes about the way that people talk about rape in america.

    If people think that this is fair or right they should check out the curvature for at least a month, the way the media treats rape and domestic violence is SICKENING.

    http://thecurvature.com/

    all the rape stories that no one wants to report, or brushes off as ‘sex’ are in there. they are excellent at pointing out how language is used to give the impression that women should not be believed when they decide to report rape. It becomes a fucking nightmare for women, I mean after reading through all the comments in this thread… imagine being a grown woman who said she was raped, what kind of treatment others would give you in general. if this level of distrust over stating clearly that rape occurred in someone who is a third grader… does anyone really wonder why so few rapes get reported? its because of shit like this. It lets rapists rack of victims and not face the consequences. Courts overturn rape cases based on how ugly the victim is or what they were wearing at the time of attack… everyone making a bunch of claims should go and actually READ about how things work in the us and other countries in regards to sexual assault to see what a joke it is for anyone who is actually a victim of this. The vast majority of the time the victim has no oppertunity for justice at all. For the most part people do not want to believe things are as bad as they are, and its certainly easy to ignore it as an issue when it isnt likely to happen to you personally (assuming most of the posters here are men). But believe me, it is that bad and you should all go educate yourselves. The national organization of men against sexism also has excellent resources aimed at men to help them understand rape and how to avoid sexually victimizing others.

    http://nomas.org/

    There are so many myths surrounding rape and sexual assault, I think its a good idea for skeptics to debunk this sort of stuff instead of perpetuating it.

  372. #372 JosephU
    March 7, 2009

    Two unborn twins were killed.

    The Catholic Church is not placing any blame on the 9 year-old mother.

    The Catholic Church “announced the excommunication of a doctor who performed an abortion on a nine year old girl, as well as the family members who made the decision to carry out the procedure.”
    See: Archbishop Announces Excommunication of Doctor and Family Members for Abortion on Nine-Year-Old Girl
    http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/mar/09030601.html

    Q. How does this line up with Christian teachings in regard to life and death and choice? What does the Bible say?

    A. Deuteronomy 30:19 (NIV)

    This day
    I call heaven and earth as witnesses against you that
    I have set before you life and death,
    blessings and curses.
    Now choose life,
    so that you and your children may live
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Deuteronomy30:19;&version=31

    Wise, Biblical advise is:
    “choose life,
    so that you and your children may live”

  373. #373 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    March 7, 2009

    JosephU.

    Thanks for stopping by and letting us know that you condone what happened to this girl.

    Appreciate it.

  374. #374 Wowbagger
    March 7, 2009

    Two unborn twins were killed.

    Just like your god kills millions of fetuses at the same stage of development every year? Humans cannot begin to match the monstrous sky-fairy for butchery.

  375. #375 Twin-Skies
    March 7, 2009

    @JosephU

    They did choose, and let a 9-year old child live. And if I remember correctly, the only reason they didn’t excommunicate the kid was because she was considered too young.

    And yet she’s old enough for them to try to bear children? Crazy fuckers.

  376. #376 On the behalf of Phil Students
    March 7, 2009

    Re: 368
    Umm, Kate, why the phil student hate? Plenty of philosophy students would have said that the legal terms have no standing on the ethical wrongness of downplaying rape in the media.

    Sure, it’s not exactly the quick route to a rewarding career, but better a poor Philosophy major than a well-paid but blinkered theotard. Philosophy majors can get jobs at McDonalds; there’s no compensating for being the kind of human waste that would not see the wrong in this monstrous act.

  377. #377 Bullwinkle Muse
    March 7, 2009

    I recently did a post about a similar, older story I happened across involving a comatose woman who’d been raped while hospitalized. Her parents (devout Catholics convinced they were speaking on behalf of their daughter) opted to carry the pregnancy to term. This, in spite of the health risks to the woman – never mind myriad other affronts to reason.

    Mind-numbing.

  378. #378 Jeff Dubin
    March 7, 2009

    Funny how nowhere in the 10 Commandments, supposedly the key moral concepts God passed down to humanity, is “Thou Shalt Not Rape.”

  379. #379 dean
    March 7, 2009

    JosephU – thanks for teaching me one thing: no matter how disgusted I become with some people, you and those like you will always remind me that that there are others who are even worse. I can’t begin to describe what an evil person you are.

  380. #380 Snowbird
    March 7, 2009

    @Joseph

    Like most people that quote the Bible, you seem to have a sever problem with comprehension. The quote you refer to isn’t about abortion, you moron. It refers to the choice of the Israelites to chose the god of Abraham, and his laws. Laws, which as it happens, doesn’t actually forbid abortion. Read the laws of Moses if you don’t believe me.

    While were at it, why don’t you quote the part where Cozbi and Zimiri were murdered because Cozbi was a Midianite. Or how about the part where God directed Moses to execute a man who was gathering firewood on the Sabbath — you don’t shop on a Sunday do you? Not that should matter because the Sabbath is actually Friday evening to Saturday evening, so you should be put to death if you work late on a Friday or shop on a Saturday, right? I mean you have to uphold the laws of the Bible, eh?

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