Pharyngula

My Viking blood boils with wrath!

It’s too bad my Viking blood does not confer upon me the ability to read Norse, because the Norwegian media is lighting up with the tale of a school that is denying evolution in the enlightened land of Scandinavia. I’ve found one account in English, and at least it looks like the creationists have been slammed silly with a widespread negative outcry. I guess I’m not the only one with a little Viking ferocity left in me.

The one thing I got from the article is that apparently the crazy creationism proponent tried to argue that there is good evidence that humans and dinosaurs coexisted. Has Answers in Genesis been showing old Flintstones episodes on Norwegian TV or something?

Comments

  1. #1 James F
    March 23, 2009
  2. #2 tsig
    March 23, 2009

    Lying for Jesus knows no boundaries.

  3. #3 Newfie
    March 23, 2009
  4. #4 Evangelatheist
    March 23, 2009

    google translation of norwegian page here

  5. #5 Newfie
    March 23, 2009

    Oh, and that article is written in Norwegian, not Norse. ;)

  6. #6 Keevan
    March 23, 2009

    Well, that is reasonably impressive. Creationist rhetoric is actually so stupid sounding, that having been run through a crude translator — resulting in bizarre grammar and the occasional foreign word — does not seem to detract from it.

  7. #7 Evangelatheist
    March 23, 2009

    clarification: last link was to school’s page.

    this is link to translated article

  8. #8 AestheticsBear
    March 23, 2009

    Even Scandinavia isn’t immune to this particular bread of Stupidosis.

    I’m quite confident however, that the Norwegians will deal with Christianity like they have in the past: Gut them and hang their entrails in trees.

    Or at least make snide remarks about them in a national media and move their children to other schools.

  9. #9 G.D.
    March 23, 2009

    The heartwarming thing is that this one reached the headlines of one of the biggest national newspapers, and in the online edition they opened up for comments by the general public: Several hundred comments by now, and they’re unanimously slamming creationism. I haven’t found a single comment supporting the deluded teacher in question. Would the situation have been the same in the U.S., I wonder?

  10. #10 G.D.
    March 23, 2009

    Btw, a correction: In fact, the school itself doesn’t support teaching creationism – it was a single teacher who put some crazy stuff up at the school’s webpage.

  11. #11 Keanus
    March 23, 2009

    Every group has a few loons, if for no other reason than entertainment, even the stolid Norwegians.

  12. #12 JD
    March 23, 2009

    Thor guided evolution and then applied subsequent NOMA. And the Scandinavians can’t prove that he didn’t!

  13. #13 Michelle
    March 23, 2009

    If you ask me, Ask and Embla are way more badass than Adam and Eve.
    …that’s the creationist story they were teaching, right? Ask and Embla?

  14. #14 Bride of Shrek OM
    March 23, 2009

    I kind of like the image of PZ going all Viking berserker on some cresationist idiot. Warms my heart, that thought does.

    He’ll have to work on the roaring though. From the “Kwoooookkkkk” cry I can tell he just doesn’t have the required level of viciousness in it yet.

  15. #15 Mane
    March 23, 2009

    …And thus the mighty warrior PZ did cross the seas to the far reaches of the Earth, and did slay the beast of Creationism with his might Octi-axe, forged in the uncaring depths of natural selection and mutation…
    -From chapter MMIX of the Saga of Life

  16. #16 Invigilator
    March 23, 2009

    @ 11. It wasn’t Thor, it was Loki — how do you think we turned out like this?

  17. #17 Josh
    March 23, 2009

    …tried to argue that there is good evidence that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    Oh wait…they were serious?

  18. #18 Haakon
    March 23, 2009

    (More or less correct translation) The headline for the Dagbladet article: No one can prove Big Bang, it’s utter fantasy. Teacher lashed out against Darwin and evolution on school’s webpage. A teacher in a children’s/youth school (like elementary/junior high)of Arendal (in the Norwegian Bible Belt) got attention after publishing an article at the school’s homepage, where he dismisses the standard theories about the development of the earth and the species. “No one can prove Big Bang, but it’s a fantasy or a theory the scientists has because they observe that the matter moves out of a center” writes the teacher and says further: “In the new RLE-Curriculum (Religion, Humanism and Ethics) Cappelen Damm (publishers) released a textbook called We in the World 4. Here five pages are reserved Darwin’s Evolutionary Theory and one page is reserved for Christmas with only 12 lines. Here’s an example how much room there’s for evolution in our textbooks. Even though evolutionism is highly resilient, scientists are currently refuting it.”

    Removed the article:
    The were published on the webpage of Moltemyr school before christmas.
    The School Officials chose to remove it from their pages this afternoon when several media, forskning.no among these reported on the article.

    The headmaster Egil Mjåvatn affirms that the article in no way reflects the views of the School. (The rest is the Headmaster saying that they of course didn’t know about the article etc.)

  19. #19 John Phillips, FCD
    March 23, 2009

    Yep, much of the teachers material sounds like it came straight from AiG. But the immediate response and smackdown was sweet.

    P.S. Let sycophancy abound :), for another thing I have in common with you PZ is that I am 1/8th. Norwegian through one of my maternal great grandmothers. But, unfortunately, what little Norwegian I once knew is long gone.

  20. #20 James F
    March 23, 2009

    Just one more: viking kittens.

  21. #21 Martin
    March 23, 2009

    Before there’s too big of an outcry, let’s just make it perfectly clear that this is one teacher, and the fact that it’s such a huge deal is a good thing. This simply doesn’t happen in Norway, and if it does it’s practically a scandal.

    I’m ashamed to admit that certain kinds of new age woo-woo have grown in Norway (if not anywhere near to the size that some people think), but Christianity is very much disappearing from the public eye, and the Christianity that there is is very much a moderate thing (perhaps the one advantage of our State Church).

    I can assure you that a lot of parents would remove their kids from that class if it was proven that he continued this farce, though more likely he would simply be fired.

  22. #22 Newfie
    March 23, 2009

    The School Officials chose to remove it from their pages this afternoon when several media, forskning.no among these reported on the article.

    non gentiles?

  23. #23 Haakon
    March 23, 2009

    The Norwegian Bible belt has its strong points in Arendal and Kristiansand and I’m not surprised of this teacher’s views as the Freechurch movement has been strong in the South of Norway. While the State Church’s worldview had to evolve with the State (or 15-20 years behind) the Free Churches can be (almost) as backward and bigoted as they like and are frequently anti-evolutionary. Most of Norway’s still apatheist/agnostic and very liberal christian…

  24. #24 JD
    March 23, 2009

    @16. Loki could only do the first million years. Baldr had to do the rest with help from Thor and one of these: http://www.hammersource.com/Brass_Hammers.html

  25. #25 Haakon
    March 23, 2009

    @Newfie forskning.no is a science blog and a damn good one. Forskning=Reseach in Norwegian. ;)

  26. #26 John Phillips, FCD
    March 23, 2009

    James F. Sweet, for some reason I haven’t played much Led Zep recently and I had forgotten that one :).

  27. #27 Haakon
    March 23, 2009

    After reading the forskning.no article it seems that the Moltemyr school still has a page called “Forbidden Archaeology” on their webpage which cites “proof” that man and dinosaur coexisted. It’s partially in English:
    http://moltemyr.skole.no/?artID=951

  28. #28 Wowbagger, OM
    March 23, 2009

    I’m guessing that they translated The Flintstones into Norwegian at some point, and this teacher assclown thought it was a documentary – just like when they brought it to Australia just in time to be shown to a young, impressionable boy named Ken Ham.

  29. #29 Deepsix
    March 23, 2009

    Uh oh. Don’t bring forth the wrath of PZ’s Viking blood, or this could happen:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_1nzEFMjkI4

    Now we dance!

  30. #30 Bjørn Østman
    March 23, 2009

    It’s the old “evolution is just a theory” canard again.

    He also says

    ?dersom Darwins lære skulle være riktig, ville det dannes nye dyrearter og planter, men det går andre veien; det blir færre arter.?

    “If Darwin’s teaching was correct there would be new species of animals and plants forming, but the trend is in the opposite direction; the species are becoming fewer.”

    The point here that the Norwegian scientists should make is that this guy doesn’t understand the difference between model/theory and fact, and does not know the first thing about evolutionary theory.

  31. #31 Mark Wisborg
    March 23, 2009

    Oh dear me. The creationists are at it again, eh? The funny thing is that they never stop using the same old tired arguments, even after having been intellectually gutted decades ago. It’s too bad really, because people have even written in to creationist websites asking them to remove certain content after having been scrutinized and found false, and they still keep it up! Because they don’t care about teaching science.

    As AronRa said, “they don’t want to do science, they want to UN-do science”. Thankfully they’ve failed in many respects, however. Odin be praised!

  32. #32 ExitB
    March 23, 2009

    “Min Viking blodet koker med vrede!
    Kategori: kreasjonisme
    Posted on: March 23, 2009 9:09, av PZ Myers ”

    Gotta love Google language tools!

  33. #33 Haakon
    March 23, 2009

    @ExitB: Not bad but it’s fucked up gramatically.
    Either “Mitt vikingblod koker med vrede”(or rather “koker i vrede”) or “Vikingblodet mitt koker med vrede”.
    Min is masculine while blood is neutrum so mitt is correct instead.

  34. #34 G.D.
    March 23, 2009

    … but it doesn’t quite get the adjective conjugation, ExitB. The idiomatic phrasing would be:

    “Mitt vikingblod koker med vrede”
    Kategori: Kreasjonisme
    Postet: 23. Mars, 2009 9:09 av PZ Myers”

    or less poetically (but more colloquial)

    “Vikingblodet mitt koker med vrede”

    (which is, come to think of it, a rather strange sentence in Norwegian – I am a little unsure whether “med” (with) would be the right preposition.) It’s surprisingly close, though.

  35. #35 godfrey
    March 23, 2009

    hmmm…gots to check my Norski content. It’s about equal to my Amerind content, I think. Yeah, I’m a mutt! It pleases me to see that in some places the xtian gets the smackdown. Let logic prevail!

    BUT, the bare-sarkers were pretty much quashed centuries ago…let’s leave that insanity to the Islamic peoples.

  36. #36 Kris
    March 24, 2009

    Hark, I hear the Valkyries swooping down to induct PZ into Vallhala.
    May the rise of Mjolnir come crashing down on creationist lies. —>http://twitter.com/thorsonofodin

  37. #37 Blind Squirrel FCD
    March 24, 2009

    Haakon @27: That website links to a couple of others, one of which is a legit dino site. the other is one of the most blatant Liars for Jesus site I have seen. They are passing off a bunch of homemade clay dinos as paleo artifacts, proving that people coexisted with dinosaurs.

    BS

  38. #38 Haakon
    March 24, 2009

    Blind Squirrel FCD @37: Yeah and the Norwegian part of the site were even more blatant. Either the school is not aware of that part of the site, or more likely they support the views of the teacher but can’t support it in public because of official policy.

  39. #39 Roger M
    March 24, 2009

    Hah, I knew PZs attitude was in the blood!
    On an interesting note: Norway has it’s state church, US doesn’t. Yet Norway is very secular.
    Here in the US, the xians have their de facto state church.
    No problems being an atheist in Norway. Here in the US, atheist are pretty much considered the worst of the worst, way below crooks and junkies.
    Anyway, the creationists are few and far between there. Can hardly say the same here in USA.

  40. #40 chancelikely
    March 24, 2009

    I think the two are connected, Roger M: putting a church in the hands of a state government will either get you a theocracy with a Ministry for the Protection of Virtue and Prevention of Vice, or a more or less sane government with a silly, unnecessary (but stately) church. (Repeal the first amendment and Oklahoma would have the former, Minnesota the latter.)

  41. #41 Martin
    March 24, 2009

    I think the fact that we do have a state church is one of the reasons why Christianity is so “mild” here. For example, when they tried to keep women from becoming priests/bishops, the state forced it through and today three of the eleven bishops are women. Not that I support the state church in this day and age, I just recognize the possible positive effect it had on the moderation of Christianity in Norway.

  42. #42 Matt
    March 24, 2009

    @Roger M #39
    That makes sense.
    In the US religion has became entrepreneurial, and as a result it’s become sensationalised, factionalised and partisan as the entrepreneurs attempt to boost congegration numbers and revenue.
    On the other hand, in countries like Norway the state support of religion means there’s no incentive to get all controversial just for the sake of it.

  43. #43 Quotidian Torture
    March 24, 2009

    As the joke goes:

    “Your God got nailed to a cross. My God has a hammer.”

  44. #44 geru
    March 24, 2009

    Yup, even Skandinavia isn’t free of these pests. Here in Finland we have at least one known Creationist as a university professor, in the department of pedagogics. He recently wrote a book which promoted bringing Creationism to school classes, the book won the 2008 annual Humbug Award of the Finnish Skeptic’s Association. :)

    Funnily enough, his name is Tapio Puolimatka, so his surname roughly translates to “halfway”, which I think describes the quality of his scientific reasoning pretty well. :P

  45. #45 Liberal Atheist
    March 24, 2009

    There are idiots everywhere. I just never thought we would give them any influence over anything. Because they shouldn’t be allowed to have it.

  46. #46 Shamar
    March 24, 2009

    Here’s a poll to crash…..

    http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10103521/

  47. #47 ExitB
    March 24, 2009

    “@ExitB: Not bad but it’s fucked up gramatically.”

    Grampa Lars didn’t survive to teach me any Norwegian so I’m happy to go with “not bad” and “fucked up” and credit Google.

  48. #48 blf
    March 24, 2009

    Bride of Shrek @ 14:

    I kind of like the image of PZ going all Viking berserker on some [creationist] idiot. Warms my heart, that thought does.

    I am very very glad I had just put down the coffee cup before I read that one. Otherwise, not only would the keyboard, monitor, and cabinet have been coffee-dashed, I’d be looking for a new nose.

  49. #49 Clemens
    March 24, 2009

    I recommend you read “The last Kingdom” by Bernard Cornwell. It’s about the Viking invasion of 9th century Britain. It’s quite a brutal book but it’s really funny how the Vikings react to Christianity.

    Btw: From what I know, Norway has always been the more religious of the Scandinavian countries. However, there was a time when self-proclaimed Satanists set churches on fire there. I suppose they weren’t really into satan but just pissed of by the status quo. Who knows.

  50. #50 Kobra
    March 24, 2009

    Did somebody say viking? Because I swear I heard somebody say viking.

  51. #51 maureen
    March 24, 2009

    Fear not! Another Viking reporting for duty – am descended from this Ljoltufs guy

    Áleifr/Óleifr Ljótulfs sonr reisti kross þ[e]nna eptir [Ul]f, son sinn.

    (“Áleifr/Óleifr, Ljótulfrs son raised this cross in memory of Ulfr, his son.”)

    – this inscription in runes is on the grave marker dated c 937 CE and still in place.

    My credentials good enough?

  52. #52 Chris Davis
    March 24, 2009

    I’m afraid Viking blood will confer nothing on anyone nowadays apart from a slight facility with assembling flat-pack furniture.

  53. #53 maureen
    March 24, 2009

    Not with me it doesn’t, Chris!

    I do knit, though.

  54. #54 A Real Viking
    March 24, 2009

    You call yourself a viking? Hardly! A real viking have balls! He has balls to dive in to the argument he is presented with and stick to the case without having to ridicule it like you do in this blog right here. Instead grow the balls to actualy present some evidence that supports your (obvious) point of view. (but then again evolutionists rarely ever does)

    Ok so you obviously have taken your time to go through answers in genesis and their ministry web page, still you are willingly ignorant of the evidence that doesn’t support evolution but instead contradicts it. The most basic laws of nature doesn’t allow for macro evolution at all. Does it really matter? Obviously not to the high priests of evolution. You chose to ignore the laws of nature, and YOU call your self a scientist? A professor even? AIG however doesn’t ignore any of the evidence present, nor do they sink to the level that they have to resort to ridiculing their opponent like evolutionist do ever so often with creationists. Well, they do ridicule evolution, but never the person or scientist presenting it.

    Im not one of these wannabe vikings that let themselves be brainwashed in to believe a scientific myth like evolution. “Everyone believes in evolution. Im scared to be different from them.”

    You call Scandinavia the cuntrys of “enlightenment” and what not. Dumbest thing ive ever heard! Its the last bastion of atheism and superstitious science, that’s why you call it “enlightened”. Its not enlightened at all, they haven’t been presented with any alternate interpretations and views of the evidence material. In the public school they have NO choice what so ever, they are lead to believe that evolution is a fact when its not even based on real science. Its a BELIEF system and NOTHING more! A religion. And every kid that ever goes to school up her gets this scientific catastrophe shoved down their throats from the age of 6! Its terrible, that’s what it is. Were still in the medieval of science here. This schoolteacher that posted the article this blog refers to is a person that makes me proud! Hes got balls! He got the guts to stand up for what he knows, even tho it means being ridiculed by a commie paper like “Dagbladet” and other media.

    Excuse my english, im a real “creationist” viking from Norway.

  55. #55 Haakon
    March 24, 2009

    As should be obvious by the above poster, we have our loonys and reality deniers up here as well. Calling Dagbladet a commie paper just tells me where he’s coming from. Well we have two alternatives: Either he’s from the Nazi-Pagan lunatic fringe or from the ultra-right christian Israel lobby. Either way not one I would put any stock in.

  56. #56 John Phillips, FCD
    March 24, 2009

    Wow, a right wing Norwegian creotard on this very blog, whatever next, well apart from embarrassment at sharing Norwegian ancestry with you. Oh well, sadly, IDiocy is apparently universal. As to the tactics of the creotards from AiG and the like, all you have proven is that either you obviously know nothing about how they wage their war on secularity and science education or you are lying. Shall I toss a coin to see which it is likely to be. Nah, why bother, I’ll just go with the most likely, i.e. you are just another liar for jeebus.

  57. #57 Didac
    March 24, 2009

    Problemet er at vitenskapen har ikke noe redskap som kan måle tid unntatt C14 datering“.

    The actual problem is when you talk about dating techniques and you think that C14 is the only technique available for absolute datation.

  58. #58 clinteas
    March 24, 2009

    Retarded creationoid troll @ 54 babbled:

    The most basic laws of nature doesn’t allow for macro evolution at all

    2nd law of thermodynamics,right? Right?

    Mwahahahahahahahahahaha

  59. #59 John Phillips, FCD
    March 24, 2009

    But Didac, other dating techniques is either the work of Satan or god fucking about with us to make it look billions of years old.

    You know, I killed some brain cells just writing that :(

  60. #60 Liberal Atheist
    March 24, 2009

    #54 is a nice parody.

  61. #61 Kel
    March 24, 2009

    still you are willingly ignorant of the evidence that doesn’t support evolution but instead contradicts it

    yes, answers in genesis is right and the millions of scientists who work in biology are wrong…

  62. #62 slang
    March 24, 2009

    You call yourself a viking? Hardly! A real viking have balls! He has balls to dive in to the argument he is presented with and stick to the case without having to ridicule it like you do in this blog right here.

    So he has balls… too bad he does his thinking with them.

  63. #63 Didac
    March 24, 2009

    “Brain cells”? John(#59), do you really believe in cell theory? Are you not aware that cell theory was promoted by Schwann and Schleiden in order to reduce living beings to “a bunch of cells”? No reliable evidence (i.e. Bible) supports cell theory. Microscopy is for satanists!

  64. #64 Dennis
    March 24, 2009

    I’m an American living in Norway and this lovely little country is a bastion of sanity and secular values. (Thank “god”)…this website was simply the result of one teacher updating the schools site which has now been removed. Don’t worry, we are all doing great here! : )

  65. #65 John Phillips, FCD
    March 24, 2009

    Didac, touché :)

  66. #66 Twin-Skies
    March 24, 2009

    @A Real Viking

    You sir, insult me. You realize that this means we shall settle this dishonor you have dealt in traditional Viking fashion – death by single combat.

    Hand me my rubber chicken!

  67. #67 'Tis Himself
    March 24, 2009

    You call yourself a viking? Hardly! A real viking have balls!

    Are there no women vikings?

  68. #68 Geoff
    March 24, 2009

    Note to the Real Viking at 54, when ramming your helmet onto your head, the horns go on the OUTSIDE.

    Btw, whoever the ‘teacher’ was in the original post, he or she really doesn’t know how science works at all and has less than a layman’s knowledge about radiometric dating techniques. Are we sure it’s supposed to be a science teacher rather than the generalist kindergarten variety.

  69. #69 scooter
    March 24, 2009

    How many times do I have to explain to you retarded right wing Viking fucktard dumbasses:

    The reason for this:
    My Viking blood boils with wrath!

    That would be nitrogen.

    Yall were great at sailing, but diving not so good. I’m sorry for your blood boiling and head splode, but even sorrier that your bubble-brained vikings got absorbed and now eat crackers and hate you.

    This is what separates the amateur divers from the modern attire, with the regulators and the tight clinging latex.

    Those red headed women are sexy.

  70. #70 PeterKarim
    March 24, 2009

    Read the article (Danish and Norweigian are very similar in writing)

    Every country has its fundementalists, here in Denmark it is Indre Mission (“Inner Mission”).

    No reason to dispair though I was watching a news anchor in a debate about ethics and euthenasia the other day. The thing is the guys he was in debate with were a moral philosopher and a neuroscientist. I cannot think of many countries where a religous nutcase would not be invited to such a debate.

    So I am not overly worried about ex-viking countries taking a turn to the religous right.

  71. #71 þórður
    March 24, 2009

    I seem to recall we Icelanders were, in some studies, the most supportive of the facts of evolutionary theory. Even here, though, some have started to question it on the grounds that it isn´t “grand” enough. Surely a prelude to this kind of nonsense.

  72. #72 Spiro Keat
    March 24, 2009

    Hey, what’s the fuss?

    There are crazy people everywhere, why not Norway?

  73. #73 Malcolm
    March 24, 2009

    Mark Wisborg @31

    Oh dear me. The creationists are at it again, eh? The funny thing is that they never stop using the same old tired arguments, even after having been intellectually gutted decades ago. It’s too bad really, because people have even written in to creationist websites asking them to remove certain content after having been scrutinized and found false, and they still keep it up! Because they don’t care about teaching science.

    I think that part of the problem is that when making theological arguments, since nothing has any basis in reality, no position is any more valid than any other. As a result no theological argument, no matter how many times its been shreded, is ever truely disproven.
    Creationist seem to think that science works the same way. As a result they keep bringing up the same crap, because to them they are equally valid opinions. They really do believe that they get to have their own facts.

  74. #74 puseaus
    March 24, 2009

    The Norwegians can (they should!) also watch this on national TV. Richard Dawkin‘s series on Charles Darwin. Not sure if the Oklahomans will be able to see it.

  75. #75 10channel
    March 24, 2009

    The public acceptance of Evolution in Norway is above 60%.

    @Spiro Keat #62
    Well, there are fewer of them in Norway, so I would suppose that a few crazy people is a bigger deal there.

  76. #76 10channel
    March 24, 2009

    “I think that part of the problem is that when making theological arguments, since nothing has any basis in reality, no position is any more valid than any other. As a result no theological argument, no matter how many times its been shreded, is ever truely disproven.”

    Perhaps it is in their emotion or something. Is human origins emotional to some people? But most religious people are not interested in making theological arguments: most just prefer the more sensational-emotional type. They do not argue; instead, they assume.

  77. #77 JosephU
    March 24, 2009

    The article says:
    … creationism proponent tried to argue that there is good evidence that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.

    Q. What “good evidence” is there “that humans and dinosaurs coexisted”?

    A. There is evidence for human and dinosaur coexistence from:
    i.) Historic writing and
    ii.) Science, such as radiocarbon dating,

    i.e.

    i.) The “Good Book” (the Bible) gives historic evidence that dinosaurs were created and lived along with people.

    Job 40 (NIV)
    15 “Look at the behemoth,
    which I made along with you
    and which feeds on grass like an ox.
    . . .
    17 His tail sways like a cedar;

    Job 41 (NIV)

    1 “Can you pull in the leviathan with a fishhook
    or tie down his tongue with a rope?
    2 Can you put a cord through his nose
    or pierce his jaw with a hook?
    . . .
    8 If you lay a hand on him,
    you will remember the struggle and never do it again!
    9 Any hope of subduing him is false;
    the mere sight of him is overpowering

    Quoted from:
    http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Job40:15-24,Job41;&version=31

    ii.) Science, such as radiocarbon dating, provides evidence that “humans and dinosaurs coexisted”

    e.g.

    On behalf of his co-authors, Dr. Josef Holzschuh and Dr. Jean de Pontcharra,
    research chemist Hugh Miller then presented the results of several years of research in the C-14 dating of dinosaur bones. The discovery of collagen in a Tyrannosaurus-rex dinosaur femur bone was recently reported in the journal Science. When Triceratops and Hadrosaur femur bones in excellent condition were discovered by the Glendive (MT) Dinosaur & Fossil Museum, Miller asked and received permission to saw them in half and collect samples for C-14 testing of any bone collagen that might be extracted. Indeed both bones contained collagen and conventional dates of 30,890 ± 380 radiocarbon years (RC) for the Triceratops and 23,170 ±170 RC years for the Hadrosaur were obtained using the Accelerated Mass Spectrometer (AMS). Total organic carbon and/or dinosaur bone bio-apatite was then extracted and pretreated to remove potential contaminants and concordant radiocarbon dates were obtained, all of which were similar to radiocarbon dates for megafauna.

    Although the radiocarbon dates are not absolute dates,
    the fact that dinosaur bones consistently possess the same radiocarbon ages as other megafauna such as mastodons known to have been contemporary with man flatly contradicts the evolutionary time scale according to which dinosaurs became extinct 65 million years ago.

    (partial quote from an e-mail report from http://www.kolbecenter.org regarding a February 23 presentation in Rome, where Catholic scientists, philosophers, and historians gathered at the National Research Council for a symposium entitled,
    ?The Theory of Evolution: A Critical Analysis.? )

    . . . It may be a surprise to some people,
    but no surprise to Bible believers
    . . .
    Cutting-Edge science
    agrees with the creation account
    recorded in the Bible.

  78. #78 Prometevsberg
    March 24, 2009

    In other news from Norway, so far sadly unreported internationally ,a survey shows norwegian youth to be deeply unreligious As the traditionally Conservative newspaper Aftenposten report
    http://www.aftenposten.no/nyheter/iriks/article2993401.ece “Absurd to think there is something more up there”:
    800 youths between 14 og 16 years old from from different parts of the country answered queries on their religious wiews:
    * 44 procent says religion is absolutely unimportant or unimportant
    * 28 procent says religion is neither important nor unimportant
    * 28 procent says religion is important or very important

    To the question whether they believed in god, 40% said no, 30 % yes,and 20% ansewered the belived in a “spirit or life force”

    The Surveywas part of the REDCo ? Religion in Education. A Contribution to Dialogue or a factor of Conflict in transforming societies of European countries project
    http://www.redco.uni-hamburg.de/web/3480/3481/index.htm

    The norwegian results are in line with the results from the EU contries, according to the researcher, especially comparable with french youth.(and we all know what a godless bunch they are)

  79. #79 Fernando Magyar
    March 24, 2009

    Scooter @ 69,

    The reason for this:
    My Viking blood boils with wrath!

    That would be nitrogen.

    Shallow water Viking wuss, try the bends after a 500ft deep dive on a breathing mix of 87% He and 13% O2, no N2 needed…I know cuz I’ve done it.

  80. #80 Vic
    March 24, 2009

    …the crazy creationism proponent tried to argue that there is good evidence that humans and dinosaurs coexisted.

    How come they always say there’s evidence, but they never say what it is?

  81. #81 Audun
    March 24, 2009

    I am surprised at the quality of the Dagbladet article. They include a heated reaction from a member of the Norwegian sceptical society, and even include a small wikipedia excerpt explaining the difference between the word “theory” in everyday language and in scientific terminology. They also have a fact box about the ID movement which cites the Kitzmiller v. Dover trial, judging creationism as unconstitutional.

  82. #82 John Phillips, FCD
    March 24, 2009

    JosephU and I presume you have a link to a peer reviewed paper rather than a presentation of the dating of bones from a creationist museum to a creationist symposium. Science doesn’t work on hearsay evidence.

  83. #83 Wackee
    March 24, 2009

    I thought I’ve heard every single creationist argument, but the dinosaur collagen being 23,170/30,890 C14-years old, quoted by #77, that is new to me. Is there a refutation of this ‘fact’ out yet?

  84. #84 Louis
    March 24, 2009

    Creationists infest Norway too?

    Faen!*

    Louis

    *I hope I spellderised that correctingly.

  85. #85 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    March 24, 2009

    Wackee, it seems that the natural radioactivity in the earth and/or cosmic sources releases sufficient neutrons so that nitrogen 14 and carbon 13 can undergo neutron activation to keep up a very low level of carbon 14 in any organic material. So coal beds look like they are 60,000 years old by carbon 14 dating, but using other dating methods give more appropriate ages.

  86. #86 Geoff
    March 24, 2009

    Fernando at #79, that sounds like a lot of oxygen for 500 feet. Much sympathy re the bend.

  87. #87 Josh
    March 24, 2009

    On behalf of his co-authors, Dr. Josef Holzschuh and Dr. Jean de Pontcharra, research chemist Hugh Miller then presented the results of several years of research in the C-14 dating of dinosaur bones. The discovery of collagen in a Tyrannosaurus-rex dinosaur femur bone was recently reported in the journal Science. When Triceratops and Hadrosaur femur bones in excellent condition were discovered by the Glendive (MT) Dinosaur & Fossil Museum, Miller asked and received permission to saw them in half and collect samples for C-14 testing of any bone collagen that might be extracted. Indeed both bones contained collagen and conventional dates of 30,890 ± 380 radiocarbon years (RC) for the Triceratops and 23,170 ±170 RC years for the Hadrosaur were obtained using the Accelerated Mass Spectrometer (AMS). Total organic carbon and/or dinosaur bone bio-apatite was then extracted and pretreated to remove potential contaminants and concordant radiocarbon dates were obtained, all of which were similar to radiocarbon dates for megafauna.

    And where exactly was this published?

    *waits expectently*

  88. #88 csrster
    March 24, 2009

    Peter: I’ll see your Indre Mission and raise you a Faderhuset.

  89. #89 co
    March 24, 2009

    Ah, yes, the good old “paper” (http://users.rcn.com/robert.bennett/BennettrevRB122708v2.doc) about dating the Tyrannosaur bones with C14.
    Know what the conclusion of other researchers is? That Bennett and Miller didn’t even date the bone — they mostly dated the shellac covering the bone, placed there to safely transport the bones from the dig site.

    P.S. (and partially off-topic) http://ncseweb.org/news/2009/03/antievolution-bill-dead-new-mexico-004691

  90. #90 raven
    March 24, 2009

    I thought I’ve heard every single creationist argument, but the dinosaur collagen being 23,170/30,890 C14-years old, quoted by #77, that is new to me. Is there a refutation of this ‘fact’ out yet?

    30,000 year old collagen is 5 times older than the 6,000 year old universe. At least according to the creotionists. Morons can’t even keep their mythology straight.

  91. #91 Glen Davidson
    March 24, 2009

    Yes, it’s Waterloo for evolution, now that enlightened Scandinavia has taken notice of the brave new world of anti-evolutionism.

    It’s Dembski’s wet dream.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

  92. #92 navelfluff
    March 24, 2009

    @#89
    I had not heard of this Bennet and Miller report before, but basic knowledge of the c-14 dating method tells me this must be bunk. Only with a very good context can C-14 date as far back as 60.000 years, and under most real-life conditions I have experienced (I’m an Archaeologist) the actual limit is more like 20-30k years. Such small samples (as a fossile collagen sample necessarily must be) would easily be contaminated by normal handling of the stone from which the sample is extracted.

  93. #93 David Marjanovi?, OM
    March 24, 2009

    A. There is evidence for human and dinosaur coexistence from:
    i.) Historic writing

    Show us. Put up or shut up.

    i.) The “Good Book” (the Bible) gives historic evidence that dinosaurs were created and lived along with people.

    The Book of Job is not historic writing. It’s literature.

    And besides, behemoth means “hippo”*, and leviathan means “crocodile”.

    * The “tail” that’s stiff and rising like a cedar isn’t what you think it is. Do I need to explain what the “stones” are, too?

    ——————————

    But, actually, if I take your claim literally, you’re actually right. Humans and dinosaurs coexist. Birds are dinosaurs — just like how bats are mammals.

  94. #94 Patricia, OM
    March 24, 2009

    Clemens @49 – Thank you for recommending that book. I’m very interested in what the vikings thought about christianity. There is some information written on the subject in History of Pagan Europe by Prudence Jones & Nigel Pennick. Pretty much conversion by brutality.

  95. #95 Tor A H
    March 24, 2009

    #93 – David Marjanovi?
    [blockquote]But, actually, if I take your claim literally, you’re actually right. Humans and dinosaurs coexist. Birds are dinosaurs — just like how bats are mammals.[/blockquote]

    If birds are dinosaurs, then humans are fish.

  96. #96 Tor A H
    March 24, 2009

    Damnit! Wrong symbol. lol

  97. #97 tes
    March 24, 2009

    Re: “Vikingblodet mitt koker med vrede”
    As a one time professional translator… well, I would probably be less than satisfied with this one.
    Vrede, although quite correct as a translation of wrath, seems far too bookish in a context like this.
    More like what a monk would feel.
    A berserker, on the other hand, would at the very least have his blood boiling with RAGE.
    So may I suggest “raseri” instead?
    Or, if you prefer actual real colloquial norwegian, something in the direction of the old classic norwegian film line: “FAEN!!!” (extreme close-up, followed by slow panorama of desolate rainy forest at dusk…).

  98. #98 Rúnar
    March 24, 2009

    The biggest newspaper in Norway, “Verdens Gang”, has an article on the frontpage of its online editiion, where PZ Meyers is mentioned as part of the media attention that has been sparked by this.
    So far I haven’t come across any newspapers or such that supports the teacher, and several politicians have spoken up against him. It also appears that the teacher has apologized.

  99. #99 Felix
    March 24, 2009

    Rúnar #98,
    I’d give something to see a prominent creationist publically apologize for spreading dumbth. Preferably bowing and in tears like the Japanes politicians often do. But that requires a sense of honor, and that’s the first thing creotard children learn not to develop.

  100. #100 eddie
    March 24, 2009

    1/8 viking? A recent study found that half of britain is at least that much viking.

    Also, it’s important to remember, in the context of the viking invasion of britain, that the vikings were vilified for sacking the monasteries. All the rape and pillage was already done by the monks.

    PS – Paranoid schitzophrenic, who fatally stabbed a cop, stopped taking his meds as he “preferred olive oil and prayer”!

    OT, sorry, but I just heard on the news. This is what the creotards achieve.

  101. #101 David Marjanovi?, OM
    March 24, 2009

    If birds are dinosaurs, then humans are fish.

    Or rather, “fish” becomes a useless synonym of, say, “vertebrate”.

  102. #102 Josh
    March 24, 2009

    If birds are dinosaurs, then humans are fish.

    Phylogenetically, essentially, yes depending on how you see the word fish (see what David wrote in 101).

  103. #103 Marcus Ranum
    March 24, 2009

    The Book of Job is not historic writing. It’s literature.

    It’s not “literature” it’s “marketing bullshit” or “propaganda” – or just plain “tall tales”; there’s real literature in the world that cries every time someone tries to be polite and calls the bible poetry or literature. Don’t be an apologist for mediocrity. The proportion of good writing in the bible is about comparable to a Tom Clancy novel – a few sentences here and there but that’s about it.

  104. #104 windy
    March 24, 2009

    So may I suggest “raseri” instead?

    How about “sinne”? (I found several instances of “Jeg koker av sinne”)

    A direct translation of “someone’s blood boils with wrath” is probably bound to be clumsy, I don’t think there’s an exact idiom in Norwegian to match.

  105. #105 Insightful Ape
    March 24, 2009

    Josh, and David are both right. But you are way over the head of stupid trolls.

  106. #106 Owlmirror
    March 25, 2009

    The Book of Job is not historic writing. It’s literature.

    It’s not “literature” it’s “marketing bullshit” or “propaganda” – or just plain “tall tales”; there’s real literature in the world that cries every time someone tries to be polite and calls the bible poetry or literature. Don’t be an apologist for mediocrity. The proportion of good writing in the bible is about comparable to a Tom Clancy novel – a few sentences here and there but that’s about it.

    Have you read “Job”? The basic premise is that God is a dick. I’m not sure how that fits with “marketing bullshit” or “propaganda”.

    Even religious people a long time ago had problems with reconciling God’s alleged knowledge, power, and benevolence with the crap they had to put up with in life. So Job pretty much tosses “benevolence” onto the midden of poor Job’s life.

    Of course, the text was edited and redacted more than a little, and it ends with God bellowing and boasting, a humiliating kowtow by Job, and a happy ending forced on, so perhaps that is the “marketing bullshit” or “propaganda”.

  107. #107 tes
    March 25, 2009

    Re: How about “sinne”?
    I don’t know…
    My inner pictures conjured up by “Jeg koker av sinne”, go more in the direction of someone who has been frustrated for so long they have trouble keeping it under control anymore…
    Sinne is a milder and more general term, “anger”.
    “Jeg koker av raseri” feels – to me, at least – more appropriate as a reaction to some spesific provocation, but I guess few norwegians I know would use the phrase in any actual situation. Most would settle for the above-mentioned “FAEN!!!” instead. But you never know.
    Both phrases could, of course, occur in a session with your shrink/diary etc.
    “Jeg koker av vrede” is bookish enough to sound pretentious, and would probably only be used ironically.

  108. #108 tes
    March 25, 2009

    Re: How about “sinne”?
    I don’t know…
    My inner pictures conjured up by “Jeg koker av sinne”, go more in the direction of someone who has been frustrated for so long they have trouble keeping it under control anymore…
    Sinne is a milder and more general term, “anger”.
    “Jeg koker av raseri” feels – to me, at least – more appropriate as a reaction to some spesific provocation, but I guess few norwegians I know would use the phrase in any actual situation. Most would settle for the above-mentioned “FAEN!!!” instead. But you never know.
    Both phrases could, of course, occur in a session with your shrink/diary etc.
    “Jeg koker av vrede” is bookish enough to sound pretentious, and would probably only be used ironically.

  109. #109 Nick Greco
    March 26, 2009

    Im not sure exactly how I navigated to this site, kinda like Leif Erickson. He did’nt know what he was doing either,
    yet the term “Greenland” proved a cunning ploy that enticed boatloads of his kinsmen to a block of ice.

    Anyhow,

    These postings have proved to be more entertaining than the viscious debates I have with mainstream evangelicals on youtube. Now being that I am an Orthodox Christian, you can imagine just how un-Christian those arguments become (much to the satisfaction of you enlightened aetheists). I never said I was perfect, just faithful. Now my point is this;

    are any of you aware that, three weeks ago in a meeting with the college of Cardinals, His Holiness Pope Benedictus
    decreed that evolution will be taught in Catholic schools?
    Encyclicals that have been in the making since Pope John Paul II dileneating the union of science and faith are currently being distributed to clergy and laity alike. Prior to this desicion, both P. John Paul and his predecessor have held meetings with leading Paleoanthropologists, anthropologists, geneticists and scientists of various backrounds from Italian and foreign universities and have come to believe that the genesis story is no longer a viable source for human creation and will threaten the future of Christianity itself. Catholic hierarchy has always maintained that God reveals himself through “divine revelation” and the unwritten sacred tradition of the church. And so shall it be with science and nature.

    Food for thought.

    Post Scriptum:

    The ancient Romans, later defenders of the Great Catholic faith, whipped butt on your cousins, the Normans and other germanic tribes. And it is thanks to mother Church that you
    “vikings” have adopted European culture.

    I’ve heard the trees still grow tall in norway, and the forests thick. You can return back from whence you came if you like, but if you insist on living in heated homes and driving on paved roads, I suggest you drop the fictitious term and an imaginary past.

    Viva il Papa!

  110. #110 David Marjanovi?, OM
    March 26, 2009

    Job, literature: what Owlmirror said.

    “Jeg koker av vrede” is bookish enough to sound pretentious, and would probably only be used ironically.

    That’s exactly what’s intended.

  111. #111 karin
    April 22, 2009

    Unfortunately, you and many others who post here appear to be lacking in kindness and tolerance. Generally in Norway people tend to be gracious to others who do not share the same opinions or beliefs. And, no matter what is posted here or elsewhere, we each still can choose to believe as we see fit and then live our lives according to the tenets of our beliefs. My Viking blood is tempered by my faith, and for that I am grateful!
    Med vennlig hilsen,
    Karin

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