Pharyngula

ERV has just posted the Oklahoma GOP platform, and she’s right — any random amble through any piece of it will have you laughing at the audacity of wingnuttia. ERV singled out a piece endorsing the teaching of creationism in the classroom, but this is my favorite, just because they are two goals sitting right next to each other, and the Rethuglicans didn’t even notice the contradiction.

4. While the objective study of
philosophy and religion can be
beneficial, public schools should not
be endorsing any specific religion or
philosophy. We believe that students
and teachers should enjoy the right of
free exercise of religion.

5. We support posting the Ten
Commandments and our Nation’s
motto, “In God We Trust,” in all
public schools in recognition of our
religious heritage. U.S. citizens. We support teaching the
intent of our founding fathers, the
original founding documents, and the
difference between a democracy and a
republic.

So the public schools shouldn’t endorse any specific religion or philosophy, but they should be be posting the ten commandments? What, do they imagine that everyone, even atheists, recognizes the authority of Moses’ wacky religious proscriptions?

Comments

  1. #1 Glen Davidson
    April 27, 2009

    You have to remember how they think.

    They should not be endorsing any specific religion–meaning, a specific sect of Xianity.

    The true religion is not a “specific religion” to their minds, it’s just The One True Religion.

    Hence, to their minds, it’s consistent.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

  2. #2 Red John
    April 27, 2009

    I think Glen’s right. It’s most likely related to that “Christianity isn’t a religion, it’s a relationship with god” horseshit they sometimes try to pull.

  3. #3 Dennis
    April 27, 2009

    Wow… they could have at least made it #4 and #6, too soon.

    It’s like it’s some sort of education test to see if anyone can see the logic-fail… but that’s being optimistic.

  4. #4 Geds
    April 27, 2009

    Frighteningly enough, I do agree with part of point five. I think we should teach the original intent of the Founding Fathers and the founding documents. That way we’ll be able to teach school children that the Founding Fathers well understood the danger of unaccountable monarchy, unregulated anarchy, and state religion.

    Oh, wait. They mean something different when they talk about the original intent of the Founding Fathers, don’t they?

  5. #5 Dennis
    April 27, 2009

    I prefer “E Pluribus Unum” over “in god we trust.”

  6. #6 Randomfactor
    April 27, 2009

    “Christianity isn’t a religion, it’s a relationship with god”

    I have a personal relationship with god, but I’m just using him for sex…

  7. #7 Mark Wisborg
    April 27, 2009

    Yup, #4, they meant something different. Hehe, it’s amusing how we sometimes call each other by numbers instead of names. It reminds me of SPECTRE in the old Bond films, particularly Thunderball.

    Anyways, anybody know in which section they said they wanted to teach creationism?

  8. #8 daveau
    April 27, 2009

    How many things can you find wrong with goal 5?

    Although it was never official, “E Pluribus Unum” was a much better motto.

  9. #9 Pablo
    April 27, 2009

    Which version of the 10 Commandments do they want posted?

    I know that the typical protestant versions that I see are not the same as those I learned in Catholic Grade School (that are in the Catholic Catechism).

    Rumor is that there is a Jewish version, too, but I am not familiar with it or how commonplace it is.

    I just want to know, whose version of the 10 Commandments do they think should be posted, and, after chosing that version, how can they say with a straight face that they are not preferring one religion over another?

    And how can the Catholic Church sit back and allow it to go on? In fact, I have seen cases where the Catholic Church is supporting 10 Commandment displays, despite the fact that the 10 commandments to be posted do not agree with the church teaching!!!!

    Remember: the first amendment protects religions from each other as it does from non-believers (probably more, even)

  10. #10 Red John
    April 27, 2009

    “I have a personal relationship with god, but I’m just using him for sex…”

    Wait a minute, god is having sex with you too? Dammit, I knew something was up.

  11. #11 Benjamin Geiger
    April 27, 2009

    Randomfactor @ #6:

    I’ve always heard it as “Jesus loves me, but I still make him use a rubber.”

  12. #12 Phaedrus
    April 27, 2009

    do they imagine that everyone, even atheists, recognizes the authority of Moses’ wacky religious proscriptions?

    Yes, from my conversations, they do. File this with, “it doesn’t hurt for everyone to say a little prayer”.

  13. #13 Ouchimoo
    April 27, 2009

    nice. I’m still failing to grasp how one friend moved to OK because “the school system is better” in regards to his kid learning evolution.

    Can I have a set of blinders too, please?

  14. #14 ELR
    April 27, 2009

    Glen Davidson said what I was about to post.

  15. #15 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    Wait a minute, god is having sex with you too? Dammit, I knew something was up.

    God is having sex with a lot of people.

    Just look how fucked everyone is.

  16. #16 Seokso
    April 27, 2009

    11. We oppose public schools
    questioning children regarding private
    family choices and lifestyles.

    The Oklahoma GOP is concerned about protecting private lifestyles? Why do I have the feeling that their privacy concern would not be extended to cover same-sex couples and their children? Or atheist families for that matter?

  17. #17 Randomfactor
    April 27, 2009

    Hehe, it’s amusing how we sometimes call each other by numbers instead of names.

    I am not a number, I am a free man!

  18. #18 Red John
    April 27, 2009

    “God is having sex with a lot of people.

    Just look how fucked everyone is.”

    /thread

  19. #19 The Science Pundit
    April 27, 2009

    The very first commandment on that list of 10 explicitly endorses one particular version of divinity. There’s no honest way around it.

  20. #20 Les Lane
    April 27, 2009

    I presume that by juxtaposing these two goals they were emphasizing consistency.

  21. #21 raven
    April 27, 2009

    UPDATE – WHO may raise pandemic threat level over swine flu

    OT but relevant. We are seeing evolution in action right now. Everyone has seen the news about the new virus. It is a weird one, a recombinant of avian, swine, and human influenza.

    As someone at the CDC said, “Any predictions about future courses of flu epidemics usually go down in flames.”

    Whether this goes pandemic or dies out in the summer like most flu outbreaks is unknown. But it isn’t going away in days or weeks.

    The evolution reality deniers are about the get a lesson in evolution whether they like it or not. In a worse case scenario, many of them are going to get sick from a newly evolved virus.

  22. #22 Strangebrew
    April 27, 2009

    9#

    Rumor is that there is a Jewish version, too, but I am not familiar with it or how commonplace it is.

    The Jew was given 613 commandments (mitzvot), according to the Talmud, which contain 248 positive commands and 365 negative ones. The positive mitzvot equal the number of parts of the body; the negative mitzvot correspond to the number of days in the solar year.

  23. #23 Robert
    April 27, 2009

    All of you are so hopelessly foolish!

    Here’s an analogy that might help you understand how these guidelines are not contradictory. Imagine you have a public school that states students may paint, sculpt, dance, or produce art in any manner they wish. Now, if that same public school hangs a painting by Rothko, are they explicitly condoning only abstract expressionist painting? Hardly! They are showcasing an important piece of art history.

    It’s the same idea as allowing the practice of any religion while also paying homage to our religious foundations.

  24. #24 Marcus Ranum
    April 27, 2009

    Moses’ morals leave something to be desired.

  25. #25 Pablo
    April 27, 2009

    Strangebrew – fine, but do they have a Ten Commandments?

  26. #26 Randomfactor
    April 27, 2009

    The Jew was given 613 commandments (mitzvot), according to the Talmud, which contain 248 positive commands and 365 negative ones. The positive mitzvot equal the number of parts of the body; the negative mitzvot correspond to the number of days in the solar year.

    Jewish women have but two, I’m told. Keeping a kosher home and raising the children Jewish, IIRC.

  27. #27 Jay H
    April 27, 2009

    Pfft. God did the whole “3 day rule” thing with me before he even called back. He yammered on about being dead tired or something.

  28. #28 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    Here’s an analogy that might help you understand how these guidelines are not contradictory. Imagine you have a public school that states students may paint, sculpt, dance, or produce art in any manner they wish. Now, if that same public school hangs a painting by Rothko, are they explicitly condoning only abstract expressionist painting? Hardly! They are showcasing an important piece of art history.

    It’s the same idea as allowing the practice of any religion while also paying homage to our religious foundations.

    Rooke is that you?

    argument by shitty analogy

  29. #29 Strangebrew
    April 27, 2009

    25#

    Although Exodus 34 contains ten imperative statements, the passages in Exodus 20 and Deuteronomy 5 contain fourteen or fifteen. However, the Bible assigns the count of ten to both lists.

    Not only is the bible contradictory in content but seriously deficient in the numeracy stakes methinks!

  30. #30 Pablo
    April 27, 2009

    Robert seems to have missed the actual contradiction. The contradiction is not with the “students should be allowed to practice whatever religion they want,” it is this part

    public schools should not be endorsing any specific religion or philosophy.

    So how is displaying a painting by Rothko not endorsing him as an artist?

  31. #31 Robert
    April 27, 2009

    To Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Yes, I should follow your style and argue-by-calling-arguments-you-can’t-argue-against-sh*tty.

  32. #32 daveau
    April 27, 2009

    Raven-

    That’s not evolution, that’s God’s punisment for allowing gay marriage. (or whatever the transgression-of-the-week is.)

  33. #33 chuko
    April 27, 2009

    Excuse my wingnut ignorance here, but what’s the deal with the “difference between a democracy and a republic”? I mean, I know the difference, but why are they so excited about it?

  34. #34 Strangebrew
    April 27, 2009

    22# & 29#

    Links…

    22#…http://ohr.edu/yhiy/article.php/973#613

    19#…http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ten_Commandments

    Posted before divulging the source of the wisdom!

  35. #35 Playstations
    April 27, 2009

    Great ;)

  36. #36 Robert
    April 27, 2009

    My dear, simple-minded Pablo,

    Just beacause you display something doesn’t mean you endorse it; you recognize it as important and worthy of contemplation and reflection. Many museums showcase photos of Stalin, who I presume they do not endorse. Many schools have copies of Mein Kampf in their libraries, but I don’t presume they endorse Hitler.

  37. #37 Brownian, OM
    April 27, 2009

    What, do they imagine that everyone, even atheists, recognizes the authority of Moses’ wacky religious proscriptions?

    Remember, everyone believes in God (and specifically in Jesus Christ, our Lord and Saviour Peace Be Upon Him), but atheists are simply denying him because we’re either mad at him or want to do drugs and have sex with chickens (or something like that). I don’t know how they reconcile the existence of Hindus or Buddhists, though I suspect most conservative Christians don’t really care as they prefer that Heaven not be full of brown people and Asians anyway.

    There’s a reason they like to sing “Jesus Loves the Little Children” as one has to have the mentality of a 5-year-old (i.e. be completely self-centered, devoid of empathy, and unable to conceive of a mind that thinks differently than one’s own) to believe in most modern forms of Christianity.

  38. #38 Gilian
    April 27, 2009

    This reminds me of a Mel Brook’s film scene:

    Mozes descends the mountain whilst carrying three stone tablets with god’s words on them and speaks to his people, raising his arms with the 3 tablets in them.

    *These are the 15 *
    (he drops one tablet and it drops to the ground and shatters) *10 commandments of God!*

  39. #39 Glen Davidson
    April 27, 2009

    Now, if that same public school hangs a painting by Rothko, are they explicitly condoning only abstract expressionist painting?

    And you know why?

    It’s because abstract expressionists aren’t exclusive, and don’t claim to have All Truth.

    But if it were dictated that Rothko paintings were to be hung upon all school walls, that would be, in a weird way, establishment of Rothko paintings. That’s not unconstitutional, though, while establishment of Xianity or other religion is.

    That’s why it’s such a shitty analogy. Because you’re just bringing up a random choice of “Rothko” that an art lover might make, while the GOP platform in that state is in favor of the government making the choice for all schools, in favor of the Xian religion.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

  40. #40 Randomfactor
    April 27, 2009

    public schools should not be endorsing any specific religion or philosophy.

    And if they post the Ten Commandments, they can show non-endorsement by posting similarly-sized-and-prominent codes from any other religion which requests such display. Like the Pastafarian “I’d really rather you didn’ts.”

  41. #41 Gruesome Janine
    April 27, 2009

    Robert, you are given no respect because you popped in here spouting out baseless and insulting questions. You have said nothing since that point that shows you are capable of a rational discussion.

    The Chimp’s post is an in joke. (Like my monikers, most which were given to me by trolls like you.) Rooke (An other Roman Catholic) had a thing about over the top and disturbing analogies. The one that you used is not in his league but it is equally as baseless as you concern about PZ’s classroom.

  42. #42 Blake Stacey
    April 27, 2009

    Hmmm. Just about every Founding Father of note was deist, agnostic or nonconformist. In order to instil the proper spirit of admiration for the men who risked their lives to establish this great country, how about mandatory readings of the Jefferson Bible and Ethan Allen’s Reason: The Only Oracle of Man?

  43. #43 AJ Milne
    April 27, 2009

    I have a personal relationship with god, but I’m just using him for sex…

    This presents such a conundrum, tho’…

    I mean, whose name do you shout when you’re actually fucking God?

  44. #44 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    All of us are fools? Even the men?

    Oh dear, Robert. Sweet baby jesus sez you’re going to hell for saying that.

  45. #45 ckk
    April 27, 2009

    I am ashamed to have to live in Oklahoma, with these whackadoodles getting elected and re-elected.

    I certainly don’t vote for them! (and yes I DO vote for their opponents whenever I get a chance)

  46. #46 Lark Newport
    April 27, 2009

    “Truth is just truth.
    You can’t have opinions about truth.”
    –P.D.Q. Bach

  47. #47 raven
    April 27, 2009

    Raven-

    That’s not evolution, that’s God’s punisment for allowing gay marriage. (or whatever the transgression-of-the-week is.)

    That is right for some people. The flu outbreak has all the hallmarks of a deity smiting.

    1. Lousy aim. It started in Mexico and has already spread to Europe, Canada, and New Zealand.

    2. Punishment of random innocents. The vast majority of patients are neither gay, atheists, or Democrats. Some are children.

    There is an alternative theory already circulating the wackosphere. The usual. It is a man made virus designed to kill billions by the Illuminati collaborating with the catholics, Jews, Reptiloid aliens, Knights Templar, Al Qaeda, lepruchauns, elves, commies, and Bigfoot.

  48. #48 Seokso
    April 27, 2009

    Robert:

    Now, if that same public school hangs a painting by Rothko, are they explicitly condoning only abstract expressionist painting? Hardly! They are showcasing an important piece of art history.

    First, museums don’t only show a single artist. The GOP and the Christian right are more limited in their aims. Second, by showing an artist, they do endorse that artist. They may not be endorsing that artist over another, but they are actively promoting that work as art over what they do not consider art. Your later analogy of Mein Kampf is even worse because no self-respecting institution would display that work without commentary. To do otherwise could very well be taken as endorsement.

    It’s the same idea as allowing the practice of any religion while also paying homage to our religious foundations.

    Bull. This has been repeatedly debunked. The US does not have religious foundations, no matter how much you wish it to be so.

  49. #49 Stanton
    April 27, 2009

    ?The Lord Jehovah has given unto you these fifteen…? (crash) ?Oy…Ten! Ten Commandments! For all to obey!?

  50. #50 Alverant
    April 27, 2009

    #5’s “the difference between a democracy and a republic” seems to be a partisan swipe along the lines of “we’re real Americans and they’re not”.

  51. #51 catgirl
    April 27, 2009

    public schools should not be endorsing any specific religion or philosophy

    I think you guys all misunderstand this. They want to make sure the school doesn’t endorse any non-Christian religion. They don’t want their kids to learn about Judaism, Islam, or Hinduism. They probably also intend this to include things like atheism, homosexuality, and feminism which they claim are religions or at least a specific philosophy. It has never occurred to them that if the schools don’t endorse a specific religion, that includes their own religion.

  52. #52 Brownian, OM
    April 27, 2009

    My dear borderline-retarded Robert wrote:

    It’s the same idea as allowing the practice of any religion while also paying homage to our religious foundations.

    Which are deist, if not outright agnostic or atheist.

    If the claim is that presenting one religion and not all others isn’t an endorsement because that religion represents some US foundational religion, then Christianity is the wrong one to present.

    Glad you mentioned libraries. Visit one sometime.

  53. #53 Gruesome Rob
    April 27, 2009

    Israel renames swine flu. Somebody please tell me that’s a Poe.

  54. #54 Tom Morris
    April 27, 2009

    Holy moley: the Oklahoma GOP think that we should teach objectively about religion and philosophy. Here’s hoping the Oklahoman branch of Citizens for Science, the Democrats and whatever progressives/liberals/rationalists etc. are in OK use this as an opportunity to push for a comprehensive comparative religion and critical thinking/philosophy curriculum.

    A philosophy, critical thinking and comparative religion curriculum would be the perfect counterpart to a scientific education. Too many people go to school and don’t enjoy science. Now, science, maths and so on does teach critical thinking. But for the kids who don’t enjoy science and maths, they need to learn that critical thinking isn’t just for the lab, and that you need to be as sceptical in every-day life: of politicians, religious leaders, moral crusaders, media talking heads, people you meet in business, advertising and marketing.

    In my experience, suggesting that schools should include critical thinking, philosophy or comparative religion tends to get even the most liberal religionists foaming at the mouth with bad excuses. Some of the excuses I’ve heard:

    “But kids won’t understand philosophy and stuff: it’s too complex”. So make it age-appropriate, and tie the complexity of the ideas presented match the level of complexity and difficulty in their other classes – and, well, if the kids aren’t smart enough to understand basic ideas of philosophy and critical thinking, then they aren’t ready to be taught religious ideas and philosophies either.

    “It’s not useful to their everyday life” – teaching kids to think critically about philosophical, religious, political and ethical questions so that they can make much more rational and critically informed decisions – that, to me, ranks up their with washing one’s hands after using the toilet, having safe sex, changing the oil in one’s car and basic food preparation and cooking. Thinking in a philosophically rigourous and sensible manner is as essential to life today as knowing how to cook an egg. Critical thinking is mental martial arts: fi you are lucky, you’ll be surrounded by sceptical, ethical people who wouldn’t try and scam you or indoctrinate you into some weird cult – but if there are, you can protect yourself.

    “That’s got an atheist, sceptical bias”. Only as much as reality itself.

    “We can’t find enough teachers.” Oh, I’m sure you can. There’s plenty of us unemployed philosophers laying around, not to mention law school people who decided not to be lawyers, there’s science teachers, maths teachers, historians – plenty of people who could teach kids who to think.

    “It’s culturally elitist. It’s imposing the big city values onto the kids of dumb hicks.” Absolutely. Being dumb is not just some kind of alternative cultural choice, like preferring rock to jazz or vice versa. It’s not like picking a sports team: oh, I’m going to support the Dumbies vs. the Smarties. No. Being stupid and uninformed has some real disadvantages. Being not stupid and informed has some disadvantages too, but you certainly save money by not buying lottery tickets.

    And that, ladies and gents, is what we should do: fight for proper logical and critical thinking courses to be introduced in all schools for all kids. To repurpose a Bush meme: “No Child Left Intellectually Defenceless”. I’m glad that the Oklahoma GOP support this important social goal. And as for the Ten Commandments: they shouldn’t just be posted on the wall, they should be the first lesson in the ethics module of the new philosophy, critical thinking and comparative religion course.

  55. #55 Chiroptera
    April 27, 2009

    Robert, #36: Just beacause you display something doesn’t mean you endorse it; you recognize it as important and worthy of contemplation and reflection. Many museums showcase photos of Stalin, who I presume they do not endorse. Many schools have copies of Mein Kampf in their libraries, but I don’t presume they endorse Hitler.

    Good point. And I would have no problem with a display of the Ten Commandments as part of an overall exhibit that explains Christianity in its proper historical and cultural context. But every time anyone tries to do that, it’s the religious nuts who squawk about how it offends them.

    Strange people you are.

  56. #56 daveau
    April 27, 2009

    Gruesome Rob- That makes no sense. Shouldn’t Jews and Muslims be avoiding anything with the word “swine” in it? I don’t know how they tell you not to eat pork if they can’t use the word “pork.” Is it like charades?

  57. #57 Bill Dauphin
    April 27, 2009

    Quoted by Raven (@21):

    UPDATE – WHO may raise pandemic threat level over swine flu

    Is it terribly, terribly wrong that I reacted to this headline by imagining an Abbot and Costello riff? ;^)

    Robert (@23):

    if that same public school hangs a painting by Rothko, are they explicitly condoning only abstract expressionist painting? Hardly! They are showcasing an important piece of art history.

    Well, AFAIK there’s been no widespread cultural claim that any Rothko painting represents an essential, indisputable moral code for all humankind. Nor is there any tradition in our culture that hanging a single piece of art represents a claim of unassailable moral superiority on behalf of the artist or his/her school of painting.

    In other words, your comparison is specious on its face: The Ten Commandments is not just an “interesting piece of … history”; it represents a specfically religious moral prescription for living. By design, no citizen of the United States is compelled to accept it, nor to be subjected to its dictates by a state authority. Such compulsion is implicit in its display in a public school or other government building1; no such compulsory moral prescription is implied by the display of any single work of art (including, BTW, even art that has a religious theme).

    1 If you can construct a situation in which the display of the Ten Commandments really would be strictly historical, we can talk… but given how pervasively judeo-christian mythology is threaded through our cultural traditions (note that this is not the same as saying we’re a “Christian nation”), I think that task will prove nearly impossible.

  58. #58 Satan
    April 27, 2009

    Many museums showcase photos of Stalin, who I presume they do not endorse.

    And if some group supported hanging large, positive portraits of Stalin on the walls of all schools — which is the actual equivalent to the GOP “goal” — would that not count as “endorsement”?

    Many schools have copies of Mein Kampf in their libraries, but I don’t presume they endorse Hitler.

    And if some group supported posting some key passage from that particular book — which is the actual equivalent to the GOP “goal” — would that not count as “endorsement”?

    By the way, I love how your examples involve the worst thugs of the recent past as analogies of God. Do I detect just a wee bit of strongly suppressed theomachia?

  59. #59 Chiroptera
    April 27, 2009

    daveau, #5: How many things can you find wrong with goal 5?

    The one that popped out at me almost immediately is the inane belief that “republic” and “democracy” are somehow mutually exclusive categories.

    But that may be due to my mood today. There is so much badness in #5 that on any other day, maybe something else would have popped out.

  60. #60 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Yawn, wake me when Robert says something intelligent. Robert, you will be there when the words “I’m sorry for being a twit, I’ll shut up now” come out of your mouth.

  61. #61 Bill Dauphin
    April 27, 2009

    Seosko (@48):

    First, museums don’t only show a single artist.

    Actually, some do, and even some good ones (i.e., if you’re ever in St. Petersburg, FL, check out the Dali Museum).

    In this case, I think there was a bit of method in Robert’s madness in choosing Rothko: Growing up in Houston, I was constantly hearing about events at the Rothko Chapel, a “sacred space open to all, established to advance human rights, interfaith understanding, and justice.” Nevertheless, even given the existence of said institution, hanging a Rothko painting anywhere else would not constitute an establishment of religion.

  62. #62 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    To Rev. BigDumbChimp

    Yes, I should follow your style and argue-by-calling-arguments-you-can’t-argue-against-sh*tty.

    Was that an “I know you are but what am I?”

    I re-submit my call for someone to give you a pacifier or blankey.

    No need to argue against that shitty analogy.

  63. #63 Lynna
    April 27, 2009

    I actually liked Robert’s description of his current routine of wife beating. Real humor. Well done. As for the rest…meh.

  64. #64 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Silly Nerd, Robert only has to answer to gawd, and since he’s condemned himself to hell twice today already (!) he’s probably off praying somewhere.

  65. #65 eddie
    April 27, 2009

    OT but breaking news:
    Mexico City has mag 5.8 quake!
    Heir to british throne meets pope, converts to catholicism!

  66. #66 sugar
    April 27, 2009

    “the difference between a democracy and a republic”

    50: seems to be a partisan swipe along the lines of “we’re real Americans and they’re not”.

    I agree Alverant. Although it could also be the simple mind of the repugnikkkan, unencumbered by history or the ability to recognize current events. For example such basic facts as America is a democratic republic, or easily identified debates, such as those in the Federalist Papers which are repeated today.

  67. #67 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Are you drunk eddie?

  68. #68 SC, OM
    April 27, 2009

    UPDATE – WHO may raise pandemic threat level over swine flu

    Is it terribly, terribly wrong that I reacted to this headline by imagining an Abbot and Costello riff? ;^)

    I don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re totally off base.

  69. #69 Brownian, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Actually, some do, and even some good ones (i.e., if you’re ever in St. Petersburg, FL, check out the Dali Museum).

    Beautiful. Tiny, but beautiful.

    I just tried to parse this again:

    Many schools have copies of Mein Kampf in their libraries, but I don’t presume they endorse Hitler.

    So, is Robert completely missing a lobe, or is he just an asshole? (One of those Big Questions™ only religion can answer, I’m sure.) Is he unaware that libraries usually carry many different books? What would he say about a library that only carried Mein Kampf?

    I repeat my exhortation that he visit a library sometime, and not just to look for books to ban, as is the tendency of his ilk.

  70. #70 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Where did that come from?

  71. #71 AJ Milne
    April 27, 2009

    You’re totally off base.

    WHO’s off base?

  72. #72 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    I don’t know what you’re talking about. You’re totally off base.

    oh no

  73. #73 Chiroptera
    April 27, 2009

    eddie, #65: Heir to british throne meets pope, converts to catholicism!

    Omigod! I tried googling news for Charles’ conversion to catholicism, and found lots of hits from the conspiracy nuts claiming that Charles is really a secret Muslim convert!

  74. #74 God
    April 27, 2009

    Do I detect just a wee bit of strongly suppressed theomachia?

    If I lived on Earth, people would throw rocks at My windows.

  75. #75 Gruesome Rob
    April 27, 2009

    WHO’s off base?

    Exactly

  76. #76 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Come on Chimpy, you know what’s on second base…

  77. #77 SC, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Actually, some do, and even some good ones (i.e., if you’re ever in St. Petersburg, FL, check out the Dali Museum).

    And for one that’s more about a fun experience:

    http://www.salvador-dali.org/museus/figueres/en_index.html

    (There are numerous great small museums dedicated to individual artists: Chagall, van Gogh, Miro, Picasso,…)

  78. #78 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    God – Just what are you doing goofing off? You’re supposed to be having sex with some of the commenters here, and throwing Robert into the lake of fire.

  79. #79 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    Exactly

    Virginity (Maginot line).

    That crushed me. Well that and the fursuits.

  80. #80 havoc
    April 27, 2009

    Wow… there are many treasures to be found in there.

    We support the constitutional right in Oklahoma for parents, even without a college degree and/or teacher?s certificate to home-school their children.

    Translation… we need people to raise kids who will actually buy into our bullshit.

    We encourage the teaching of art, music,foreign languages, sports/physical fitness, and the option of using the Bible as history

  81. #81 Bill Dauphin
    April 27, 2009

    Brownian (@69):

    (i.e., if you’re ever in St. Petersburg, FL, check out the Dali Museum).

    Beautiful. Tiny, but beautiful.

    Yeah, I really loved it. The funny part of it was that I went there with my wife and my sister and a friend… and my then 7-year-old daughter. The tourguide kept pointing out the Gala images in the paintings, and wanting to talk about Dali’s relationship with Gala… but was obviously weirdly abashed about discussing such matters in front of an “innocent” child. We adults who were with her had no such concerns, of course — my daughter has never been particularly sheltered about sexuality — but the poor docent was just flummoxed.

    Dali or no Dali, I guess it’s still central Florida, after all.

    PS: I knew y’all wouldn’t let me down on the Abbott and Costello thing!

  82. #82 SC, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Virginity (Maginot line).

    That crushed me. Well that and the fursuits.

    THIRD BASE: ORAL SEX (FORMERLY “HANDS IN THE PANTS”)

    I’m so old. This does make more sense, though.

  83. #83 daveau
    April 27, 2009

    Chiroptera@59- I was more going for every other word… But my fave’s are “recognition of our religious heritage.”, false premise; “U.S. citizens.”, dangling something; “teaching the intent of our founding fathers”, presumption as well as demonstrably incorrect; “teaching the intent … the original founding documents, ditto; and the ever fabulous “teaching … the difference between a democracy and a republic”, duh.

    eddie@65- More signs of the impending apocalypse.

  84. #84 Josh
    April 27, 2009

    From the “Platform” document:

    We desire to limit government involvement in the lives of families and individuals. We believe that a sound, traditional family unit is essential to the strength, stability, and success of our nation. We will defend the institution of the family against those who seek to use the levers of government to undermine or redefine it.

    These three sentences are in the same paragraph.

  85. #85 Sherry
    April 27, 2009

    The bible as history? Anyone who’s taken a course in the KJV as literature knows it’s not history.

  86. #86 Bill Dauphin
    April 27, 2009

    OT to this thread but obliquely related to Republican insanity, this just in: By a vastly larger margin than that of the actual election tally, Minnesotans now want Coleman to concede to Al Franken. So even some Coleman supporters now recognize that Normie is screwing his former constituents to no purpose.

  87. #87 havoc
    April 27, 2009

    daveau-

    “U.S. citizens.”, dangling something…

    That random “U.S. citizens” thing caught my eye, too… apparently someone wasn’t very good at copy/paste. That last part of #5 was taken from an entirely different section of the platform. Here’s the full quote that it comes from:

    5. We oppose any curriculum that promotes one-world government, communism, socialism, global citizenship, and any curriculum originating with UNESCO. We affirm that our citizens, of any race, creed, or culture, are fully American. We support teaching our commonalities as U.S. citizens. We support teaching the intent of our founding fathers, the original founding documents, and the difference between a democracy and a republic.

  88. #88 Jud
    April 27, 2009

    Pablo writes:

    Rumor is that there is a Jewish version, too

    Now that is some seriously funny stuff. Google “Moses.”

    Regarding the “thinking” of OK Republicans: Having lived in OK for 7 years, I’d say the OK GOP doesn’t think of the Ten Commandments as religious, but rather under the vague general heading of “fundamental moral stuff all kids should know that is included in the Constitution and Declaration of Independence,” such as the Ten Commandments, John 3:16, and the Pledge of Allegiance.

    I last resided in Oklahoma City in 1987, and at that time Protestant preachers still visited public schools on a regular basis to provide religious instruction. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the practice continued through the present day.

  89. #89 Citizen of the Cosmos
    April 27, 2009

    #23

    It’s the same idea as allowing the practice of any religion while also paying homage to our religious foundations.

    You mean to your religious foundation. But you know very well that it’s not everyone’s foundation. It’s not a foundation at all, unless you consider primitive unbased beliefs to be a foundation of anything.

  90. #90 Chiroptera
    April 27, 2009

    havoc, #87: We oppose any curriculum that promotes one-world government, communism, socialism, global citizenship, and any curriculum originating with UNESCO.

    Hee hee. I just love insanity. I mean, come on, in how many school districts in the US is there a movement to adopt a curriculum originating with UNESCO?

  91. #91 SC, OM
    April 27, 2009

    We oppose any curriculum that promotes one-world government,

    That reminded me of a segment from The Daily Show last week:

    http://vodpod.com/watch/1555906-daily-show-sht-thats-never-gonna-happen-global-currency

    (My laptop won’t show it, but I think that’s the right vid.)

  92. #92 DaveL
    April 27, 2009

    Here’s an analogy that might help you understand how these guidelines are not contradictory. Imagine you have a public school that states students may paint, sculpt, dance, or produce art in any manner they wish. Now, if that same public school hangs a painting by Rothko, are they explicitly condoning only abstract expressionist painting? Hardly! They are showcasing an important piece of art history.

    A much more accurate analogy would be to imagine a political party publishing a platform which in one paragraph opines that “Public schools should not be endorsing specific artists or artistic movements”, then in the very next paragraph specifically endorsing the display of Rothko’s work in public schools.

  93. #93 littlejohn
    April 27, 2009

    Apropos the business about a democray vs. a republic, I’ve noticed it’s Republicans who spout that. They’re the same ones who insist on calling it the “Democrat Party,” as if they think it’s clever. They have the minds of 10-year-olds.
    As to posting the ten commandments: Isn’t any display of commandments, by definition, a graven image? I think it’s nice that they violate a commandment whenever they display them.

  94. #94 Anonymous
    April 27, 2009

    Just beacause you display something doesn’t mean you endorse it

    And just because someone writes a book about his plans doesn’t mean he’s a bad person.

  95. #95 God
    April 27, 2009

    So, is Robert completely missing a lobe, or is he just an asshole? (One of those Big Questions™ only religion can answer, I’m sure.)

    And lo, I am here to answer: He is not just an asshole; he is not just “holier than thou”; he is, in fact, assholier-than-thou.

    Great will be his dismay when he dies and finds that Heaven is populated with assholies of far greater magnitude than his rather petty self.

  96. #96 Watchman
    April 27, 2009

    I have a personal relationship with god, but I’m just using him for sex…

    God’s your DWB? Impressive.

  97. #97 mr.ed
    April 27, 2009

    actually, three of the ten have to do with real crimes and one is the basis for the advertising business: the coveting part.

  98. #98 Josh
    April 27, 2009

    10. We support a strong national defense and advocate “peace through strength,? supported by necessary defense spending. We support the traditional, historical values of our military.

    19. Taxes should not be used to redistribute private income which is legally gained.

    *headdesk*

  99. #99 Blue Fielder
    April 27, 2009

    1 We support posting the Ten Commandments and our Nation’s
    2 motto, “In God We Trust,” in all public schools in
    3 recognition of our religious heritage. U.S. citizens.
    4 We support teaching the intent of our founding fathers,

    VRRRRT VRRRRT VRRRRT
    ERROR – ERROR – IRRECONCILABLE STATEMENTS
    LINES 1 & 2 & 3 INCOMPATIBLE WITH LINE 4
    KERNEL PANIC
    GURU MEDITATION
    0x0115D8CF

    Seriously, that shit doesn’t compute. The Founding Fathers’ intent wasn’t for the country to all bow and scrape at the feet of one set of religious beliefs. Fuggin’ morons.

    Also: please ignore Robert. As with any other single-common-name troll, he’s not worth it, and is probably just another name mutation of one of the Dungeon’s existing residents.

  100. #100 nothing's sacred
    April 27, 2009

    A much more accurate analogy would be to imagine a political party publishing a platform which in one paragraph opines that “Public schools should not be endorsing specific artists or artistic movements”, then in the very next paragraph specifically endorsing the display of Rothko’s work in public schools.

    Indeed, even if schools were not endorsing a specific religion or philosophy by posting the Ten Commandments, the Oklahoma Republican Party is endorsing a specific religion or philosophy by singling out the Ten Commandments.

  101. #101 nothing's sacred
    April 27, 2009

    Imagine you have a public school that states students may paint, sculpt, dance, or produce art in any manner they wish. Now, if that same public school hangs a painting by Rothko, are they explicitly condoning only abstract expressionist painting? Hardly! They are showcasing an important piece of art history.

    How about if they drape the school with Nazi banners and put pictures of Hitler on the walls … are they showcasing an important piece of political history?

  102. #102 Bill Dauphin
    April 27, 2009

    19. Taxes should not be used to redistribute private income which is legally gained.

    My correction doesn’t actually change the effective meaning of that plank; it just clarifies the actual intent.

  103. #103 Chiroptera
    April 27, 2009

    Josh, #98: 10. We support a strong national defense and advocate “peace through strength,? supported by necessary defense spending. We support the traditional, historical values of our military.

    What’s even more funny is that these two sentences alone contradict each other.

    A large military, especially one based on “peace through strength,” actually dates from WWII and is not “traditional” in the sense of being the “intent” of any Founding Father.

    Or perhaps we can point out that the “liberal excesses” of the “judicial activists” of the Warren Court are as much “traditional.”

  104. #104 Nangleator
    April 27, 2009

    You know, if a fetus was convicted of a capital crime, executing it would be both mandatory and illegal.

  105. #105 Tulse
    April 27, 2009

    Regarding “democracy vs. republic”, this article seems to cover the talking points of this distinction. Essentially, the issue is a profound distrust of “the people”, and a belief that a republic can have its laws irreparably based on Divine Law, unrepealable by the rabble.

    In other words, it’s the views of those who really want a theocracy.

  106. #106 Watchman
    April 27, 2009

    Robert, I’ve got news for you. This:

    public schools should not be endorsing any specific religion or philosophy.

    and this:

    We support posting the Ten Commandments and our Nation’s motto, “In God We Trust,” in all public schools

    are contradictory. You can’t see the contradiction because you don’t wish to see it. Or maybe it’s because you’re devoting too many brain cells towards smug condescension instead of logic and reason.

    Your Stalin and Hitler analogies fail. The parallel to having a copy of Mein Kampf in the library is having a copy of The Holy Bible in the library. Your argument suggests that posting, without commentary, a large picture of Hitler alongside some choice quotations from his speeches and writings would be a suitable gesture in recognition of the heritage of our nation’s largest ethnic group, the German-Americans.

    No school, let alone “all public schools”, would display images of Stalin or Hitler, or prominently-displayed examples of their writings, “in recognition of” whatever heritage such a display would imply or evoke. Neither would a museum. Such a display could only be seen as an endorsement of what those men stood for. Perhaps you believe that the images of Chairman Mao that are still so ubiquitous in The People’s Republic of China exist only to serve in recognition of Chinese heritage, and in no way suggest an institutional endorsement of his political philosophies.

    What was your point again? That modern-day Christians should be able to do whatever the fuck they want, regardless of the intentions of the men who wrote the Declaration and the Constitution? So far, you have failed to support that point.

  107. #107 LokiMan
    April 27, 2009

    Why do we pay these people again?

  108. #108 Brownian, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Imagine you have a public school that states students may paint, sculpt, dance, or produce art in any manner they wish. Now, if that same public school hangs a painting by Rothko, are they explicitly condoning only abstract expressionist painting? Hardly! They are showcasing an important piece of art history.

    Sorry, I misread this. I see your point, and I agree. Be sure to let me know when they festoon Oklahoma schools with lights for Diwali*, ‘kay Bobby?

    *For those who don’t know (which here likely includes, um, Bobby), Diwali, or the Festival of Lights, is an important holiday in Hinduism, Buddhism, Sikhism, and Jainism, and signifies the victory of good vs. evil. It is a prominent holiday in those religions and carries a positive message no one can really argue with (you don’t like Good triumphing over Evil? How un-American!), and thus its celebration in Oklahoma schools showcases an important aspect of religious history. You got a problem with that, Bobby?

    Didn’t think so.

  109. #109 Hank Fox
    April 27, 2009

    Word frequencies:

    A total of 27 mentions of religion, including 9 mentions of ?God,? 9 more of ?religious? or ?religion,? 4 of ?creation,? 2 of ?faith,? 1 of ?Bible,? 1 of ?biblical,? and 1 of ?Christian.?

    But only 3 mentions of ?science,? zero mentions of ?reason,? and the phrase ?any evolution theory? used as if it?s a generic supermarket brand of doubtful quality.

  110. #110 Brownian, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Man, I hate when the trolls drop a few turds and take off.

    You get the fuck back here, sit your fat ass down, and pay attention when I’m educatin’ you, boy.

  111. #111 Interrobang
    April 27, 2009

    Shouldn’t Jews and Muslims be avoiding anything with the word “swine” in it? I don’t know how they tell you not to eat pork if they can’t use the word “pork.”

    Euphemism. I wish I were kidding, but the standard term for “pork” in modern Hebrew is “basar levan,” or “white meat.” On the other hand, one oughtn’t throw too many stones, because in English, pretty much everything to do with bodily functions (including the medical names for genitalia) are euphemisms all the way down… Religion or corporeality — choose your rhetorical poison, I guess.

  112. #112 Josh
    April 27, 2009

    Chiroptera @103–good catch! Didn’t notice that one.

  113. #113 Mobius
    April 27, 2009

    I don’t think anyone has pointed this out…

    Though ERV said this was the state GOP platform, it is actually the Tulsa County GOP platform. Not a huge difference, but it should be noted for accuracy’s sake.

    Still, a thoroughly imbecilic document. Lots of faux religious rhetoric that wouldn’t even begin to pass constitutional muster. But then, these are the same guys that voted James Inhoffe in as mayor of Tulsa, then as the Tulsa area congress critter, then as US senator from OK. Anyone that votes for Inhoffe is a loon.

  114. #114 Equisetum
    April 27, 2009

    I last resided in Oklahoma City in 1987, and at that time Protestant preachers still visited public schools on a regular basis to provide religious instruction. I wouldn’t be at all surprised if the practice continued through the present day.

    I lived there until 2002, and in the ’90s there was principal in a rural school near OKC who read the lord’s prayer (sorry. ain’t gonna capitalize that) every day over the PA.

    And then there’s this.

  115. #115 Pablo
    April 27, 2009

    Indeed, even if schools were not endorsing a specific religion or philosophy by posting the Ten Commandments, the Oklahoma Republican Party is endorsing a specific religion or philosophy by singling out the Ten Commandments

    Darn it, can I reiterate my original point again: According to the Catholic Catechism, what they are displaying are NOT the “Ten Commandments”!!!!!!! They are the “Protestant Version of the Ten Commandments,” which is not consistent with catholic teaching.

    So, aside from whether displaying the “Ten Commandments” themselves is endorsement or not, it is very clear that posting the “Protestant Version of the Ten Commandments” must involve “preferring one religion over another.” They have determined that the Protestant Version of the Ten Commandments is the one that the government choses.

    Stop talking about the “Ten Commandments” as if they were monolithic.

  116. #116 CJColucci
    April 27, 2009

    Concerning the competing versions of the Ten Commandments, before I learned the difference I had a very disconcerting conversaation with a relative temporarily off her meds (literally) in which she spoke about violating the 5th Commandment frequently. By my (Catholic) count, the 5th is “Thou shalt not kill.” By her (Protestant) count, it is “Honor thy father and mother.” We had some difficulty communicating there, even though I have a demonstrated knack for dealing with the insane.
    I felt far less stupid when I later learned that Justice Scalia didn’t know there were multiple versions until he saw it in the briefs in the Supremes’ most recent Ten Commandments cases.

  117. #117 eddie
    April 27, 2009

    Drunk? I wish. No, just things I heard on the news. Charles did meet the pope. The official story doesn’t mention conversion but I suspect its on the cards. c.f. Tony Bliar, etc.
    I am NOT saying the stories are related. Indeed, I also hear the mexican church are milking the disaster.

  118. #118 Pablo
    April 27, 2009

    I felt far less stupid when I later learned that Justice Scalia didn’t know there were multiple versions until he saw it in the briefs in the Supremes’ most recent Ten Commandments cases.

    I’m not sure that is necessarily a consoling feature…:-)

    I should clarify a little. The reason I think we need to stop talking about the TC as a monolithic feature is because it falls right into the christian bait-and-switch. They want to pretend that they have a unified front in support of this. However, it is important to recognize that, in fact, they don’t agree about it, at least in the details.

    As I mentioned, the beauty of the first amendment is that it just as much protects religions from each other as from the non-religious. So let’s make sure we advertise the fact that these attempts to display the (protestant version of the) Ten Commandments are just as much an assault on, e.g. Catholics as against the non-religious.

  119. #119 ildi
    April 27, 2009

    Rothko – meh. I watched the PBS series Simon Schama’s Power Of Art. It was awesome until the last episode:

    Van Gogh
    Picasso
    Caravaggio
    Bernini
    Rembrandt
    David
    Turner
    Rothko

    WTR? Rothko? Well, at least it wasn’t Pollock…

    Oh, that wasn’t Robert’s point? My bad…

  120. #120 ildi
    April 27, 2009

    WTR = William T Riker

  121. #121 CC
    April 27, 2009

    The ten commandments are not only a part of christian and jewish lives but any sane person can agree that some of the commandments are really simple rules to live by.

  122. #122 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    The ten commandments are not only a part of christian and jewish lives but any sane person can agree that some of the commandments are really simple rules to live by.

    and?

  123. #123 Elwood Herring
    April 27, 2009

    The biblical commandments (any set) would have been far more impressive if they had included something along the lines of “Thou shalt not split the atom”.

    Brownian #110 – I distinctly heard the voice of Foghorn Leghorn in that outburst!

  124. #124 Pablo
    April 27, 2009

    The ten commandments are not only a part of christian and jewish lives but any sane person can agree that some of the commandments are really simple rules to live by.

    And the others?

    For some reason, I don’t hear the religious clammoring to post “some of the Ten Commandments.”

  125. #125 CJO
    April 27, 2009

    Yeah, the ones that are “really simple rules to live by” are the ones that nobody needs to be told, and the rest are archaic, sectarian, stupid and worthless.

    I say we post the Talmud in all public buidings. The lot of it.

  126. #126 havoc
    April 27, 2009

    I’m bored… so I’ll amuse myself with this:

    Thou shalt not kill.

    3. We support the death penalty and swift execution of criminals…

    Good times.

  127. #127 Elwood Herring
    April 27, 2009

    I’ve always wondered about “Thou shalt not kill” – it’s a total blanket statement; it doesn’t say “Thou shalt not kill people” does it? Thou shalt not kill. Period.

    So presumably God wants us all to be vegetarians? Unless you also believe that plants are “killed” when eaten, so where does that leave us?

  128. #128 Heep Jingler
    April 27, 2009

    Were the Republican platforms originally in Comic Sans? If so, all the more reason to not take them seriously

  129. #129 nothing's sacred
    April 27, 2009

    I’ve always wondered about “Thou shalt not kill” – it’s a total blanket statement; it doesn’t say “Thou shalt not kill people” does it? Thou shalt not kill. Period.

    It’s a mistranslation. The original refers to murder.

  130. #130 catgirl
    April 27, 2009

    So presumably God wants us all to be vegetarians? Unless you also believe that plants are “killed” when eaten, so where does that leave us?

    Fruitarianism. You can eat fruits, eggs, and milk, and even blood without killing the source of that food. It does bring up the trickier question pasteurization though, and the unintentional killing of bacteria done by my immune system.

  131. #131 kelebek
    April 27, 2009

    I’ve always wondered about “Thou shalt not kill” – it’s a total blanket statement; it doesn’t say “Thou shalt not kill people” does it? Thou shalt not kill. Period.

    So presumably God wants us all to be vegetarians? Unless you also believe that plants are “killed” when eaten, so where does that leave us?

  132. #132 sevi?mek
    April 27, 2009

    Which version of the 10 Commandments do they want posted?

    I know that the typical protestant versions that I see are not the same as those I learned in Catholic Grade School (that are in the Catholic Catechism).

    Rumor is that there is a Jewish version, too, but I am not familiar with it or how commonplace it is.

    I just want to know, whose version of the 10 Commandments do they think should be posted, and, after chosing that version, how can they say with a straight face that they are not preferring one religion over another?

    And how can the Catholic Church sit back and allow it to go on? In fact, I have seen cases where the Catholic Church is supporting 10 Commandment displays, despite the fact that the 10 commandments to be posted do not agree with the church teaching!!!!

    Remember: the first amendment protects religions from each other as it does from non-believers (probably more, even)

  133. #133 resimler
    April 27, 2009

    The biblical commandments (any set) would have been far more impressive if they had included something along the lines of “Thou shalt not split the atom”.

    Brownian #110 – I distinctly heard the voice of Foghorn Leghorn in that outburst!

  134. #134 Blue Fielder
    April 27, 2009

    Were the Republican platforms originally in Comic Sans?

    No, but they may as well have been. Anything batshit-crazy quoted in a post here is posted in Comic Sans, and for good reason.

  135. #135 canl? tv
    April 27, 2009

    The biblical commandments (any set) would have been far more impressive if they had included something along the lines of “Thou shalt not split the atom”.

    Brownian #110 – I distinctly heard the voice of Foghorn Leghorn in that outburst!

  136. #136 kelebek
    April 27, 2009

    Yeah, the ones that are “really simple rules to live by” are the ones that nobody needs to be told, and the rest are archaic, sectarian, stupid and worthless.

    I say we post the Talmud in all public buidings. The lot of it.

  137. #137 Nangleator
    April 27, 2009

    Is there an echo in here? Hello!!

  138. #138 Shadow
    April 27, 2009

    Posted by: Bill Dauphin | April 27, 2009 1:12 PM

    Quoted by Raven (@21):

    UPDATE – WHO may raise pandemic threat level over swine flu

    Is it terribly, terribly wrong that I reacted to this headline by imagining an Abbot and Costello riff? ;^)

    I don’t know — Third Base!

  139. #139 Elwood Herring
    April 27, 2009

    There’s a terrible echo in here.

  140. #140 Stu
    April 27, 2009

    any sane person can agree that some of the commandments are really simple rules to live by

    So is “always wipe front to back”. Your point?

  141. #141 ildi
    April 27, 2009

    Spambots at play?

  142. #142 Ichthyic
    April 27, 2009

    There’s a terrible echo in here.

    Well, when reality has a well-known liberal bias, one should expect it to be echoed frequently, right?

    …or did you have some specific piece of fantasy you wished to defend?

  143. #143 Ranger_Rick
    April 27, 2009

    I find these planks to be scary and here’s why…

    -It invites politics into not only education but curriculum which is the last place politics should stick its nose outside of funding.

    -Although it suggests philosophy and religion as courses of study it says “no endorsement of either” So I’m assuming the worst regarding learners knowing the similarities or differences of or the outcomes in the application of either one.

    In turn, this leaves logic/reason being uncomprehended, unsynthesised, unapplied…unused, etc; when logic could be, for example, fully demonstrated and utilized to scrutinize religion.
    -wicked grin-

    -Posting of the ten commandments and “in gawd we trust” is simply xtian sky-fairy worship and furthermore endorsement of “Just Say No” to full education, logic and reason mentality…which they demontrate well with these idiotic planks.

    But to be fair, I found this part ok:

    We support teaching the intent of our founding fathers, the original founding documents, and the difference between a democracy and a republic

    And if readings include what Blake Stacy says,

    …the Jefferson Bible and Ethan Allen’s Reason: The Only Oracle of Man?

    to which I would add Thomas Paine’s “Age of Reason” then it would be ok. But these planks should not be accepted or applied as written.

  144. #144 Longtime Lurker
    April 27, 2009

    The Jew was given 613 commandments (mitzvot), according to the Talmud, which contain 248 positive commands and 365 negative ones. The positive mitzvot equal the number of parts of the body; the negative mitzvot correspond to the number of days in the solar year.

    Now, what could possibly have been so onerous that it could inspire circumcision?

  145. #145 Nullifidian
    April 27, 2009

    chuko @ #32:

    Excuse my wingnut ignorance here, but what’s the deal with the “difference between a democracy and a republic”? I mean, I know the difference, but why are they so excited about it?

    Beats me. I couldn’t help laugh at the incongruity (or perhaps the sublime harmony) of including it with the portion of the platform that advocates putting the 10 Cs in public schools.

    It’s as if they’re saying, “We intend to put the 10 Cs in school and thus demonstrate, by losing the subsequent lawsuit, the difference between a democracy (where we should get to do these things if we’re in the majority) and a constitutional republic (where we can’t do these things even if we’re in the majority, because it’s unconstitutional).”

  146. #146 Mrs Tilton
    April 27, 2009

    the difference between a democracy and a republic

    I’m always happy when somebody raises this issue in conversation, because it is an instant and reliable indicator that they are too stupid to bother talking with, enabling one to waste less time.

    The statement “America isn’t a democracy, it’s a republic” is, in substance, the same thing as claiming “a horse isn’t something you can ride on, it’s a mammal with hooves”. I agree with those upthread who think that some of the “R not D” people don’t like the idea of the demos running things, and that others — simpler souls who’d never use a filthy foreign word like “demos” — are, in a display of almost endearing idiocy, conflating the concepts “republic” and “Republican”, “democracy” and “Democrat”, and then pitting the one false pair against the other. But really, they are all of them too stupid to see that they are saying nothing, they are merely making a noise.

    Truly, this argument is as moronic as that other old fave: “liberals are fascists because the full name of the nazi party had the word ‘socia1ist’ in it”.

  147. #147 Pablo
    April 27, 2009

    It’s a mistranslation. The original refers to murder.

    But what is murder? Isn’t murder “killing in situations when you aren’t allowed to kill”? Why do you need a commandment against that? It is wrong by definition!

    I knew that when the “Thou shalt not kill” was brought up, that some simpleton would claim the “thou shalt not murder” nonsense. It’s what I call the “Barney Fife” commandment. Remember Barney Fife’s first rule for the Mayberry Jail: Obey All Rules.

    That’s what “thou shalt not murder” is equivalent to. It is basically, “Don’t kill when it is wrong to kill.”

    Thanks for that insight, oh your omnipotence…

    What next? “Thou shalt not park illegally?”
    “Don’t do wrong things”?

  148. #148 Elwood Herring
    April 27, 2009

    Ichthyic: I’m on your side, don’t have a go at me. Someone is copypasting previous posts including a couple of mine. Little things please little minds, I suppose.

  149. #149 Ichthyic
    April 27, 2009

    Someone is copypasting previous posts including a couple of mine.

    ah, sorry.

  150. #150 Stu
    April 27, 2009

    “Don’t be mean”
    “Don’t be cruel”
    “Don’t disobey just orders”
    etc. etc.

  151. #151 strange gods before me
    April 27, 2009

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/republic

    http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/democracy

    In practice today there is no difference.

    Technically you could have a republic which is not a democracy, meaning that certain castes of people do not have the right to vote for representation.

    Rome was such a republic without democracy. Consequently, for most people, Rome was not a pleasant place to live.

    Ever since the ratification of the Nineteenth Amendment in 1920, the United States of America has been a republic and a democracy.

    So whenever someone says “America is a republic, not a democracy,” what they’re really saying is that we should prohibit women, and perhaps black people, from voting.

  152. #152 'Tis Himself
    April 27, 2009

    What the Republicans are complaining about is a pure democracy, where every political question gets voted on by the citizenry. What they ignore is that the US is a constitutional representative democratic republic. In other words, it’s both a floor polish and a dessert topping democracy and a republic without being pure examples of either.

  153. #153 Brownian, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Those that claim the 10 commandments are really just ‘common sense’ that ‘anyone can live by’ aren’t very familiar with them.

    The first four (or three for Catholics) deal with kissing YHWH’s ass: that you should do it; when you should do it; how long you should do it for; and whether or not chapstick is appropriate when doing it.

    Honouring your father and mother are great if they’re not douchebags, so that one’s a bit useless (and authoritarian).

    You shalt not murder/kill is one part no-brainer, two parts legal prestidigitation considering none of the Abrahamic cults follow it in all cases. See the argument made by Pablo above for a discussion on murder vs. killing. (Interestingly, the Catholics use the non-specific “Thou Shalt Not Kill”, with as much effect on the lay and clergy alike as if they’d added an 11th “Thou Shalt Not Stick Thy Cock In the Anus Of Thy Altarboy”.)

    Thou Shalt Not Commit Adultery: great for maintaining the patriarchy.

    Thou Shalt Not Steal: ibid.

    You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor: again, a no-brainer.

    And the last two are exhortations against undermining the patriarchy via thought-crime. Stalin much, God?

    You know what’s better common sense? Being literate in your own religion.

  154. #154 strange gods before me
    April 27, 2009

    What the Republicans are complaining about is a pure democracy, where every political question gets voted on by the citizenry.

    Yet for all their complaints, they love the ballot initiatives against gay marriage like Prop 8.

    Grand Old Hypocrites.

  155. #155 Alex Deam
    April 27, 2009

    Reading the Bible, it turns out that Christianity is not very specific anyway.

  156. #156 Voice 0'Reason
    April 27, 2009

    Huh? What? Rothko is God?

    We’re screwed.

  157. #157 Voice 0'Reason
    April 27, 2009

    I mean, whose name do you shout when you’re actually fucking God?

    Darwin’s, of course. But don’t tell the Christians — that sort of thing upsets them.

  158. #158 squidbait
    April 27, 2009

    correction:

    Moses did not make nor write the Ten Commandments. God inscribed them onto the tablets. Moses merely presented them.

    Not that you believe it, but just making a correction in theology. You people may know your germs and molecules and evolution just fine, but you suck at religious accuracy.

    You probably still belive that there are “lost” gospels.

  159. #159 squidbait
    April 27, 2009

    Renowned atheistic spokesperson, Dan Barker and A coherent definition of a God: A Darwin Day debate!
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/240132

    Prophecies: True or false?
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/240137

    Was Jesus? witness true or not true?
    http://www.apologeticspress.org/articles/3872

  160. #160 Emmet, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Thus spake Brownian,OM:

    Man, I hate when the trolls drop a few turds and take off.

    I’m disappointed that my coinage, cowgull, hasn’t taken off to refer to them. As a contraction of ?cow? (referring to the pantload of bovine excrement they drop) and ?seagull? (because they fly in, shit all over the place, and then leave), it seems rather like an ideal name for them.

  161. #161 Glen Davidson
    April 27, 2009

    Moses did not make nor write the Ten Commandments. God inscribed them onto the tablets. Moses merely presented them.

    As long as you’re being a pedantic moron, I’d point out that, in their earliest declaration, the ten commandments were spoken to the people by god, according to Exodus.

    And secondly, almost none of us believes the story about god writing it. The most charitable we can be to the Bible is to allow that maybe someone named Moses or some related name may have written it. Even the Bible tells us that there were no witnesses to the writing, save Moses, who just might have been claiming a special connection to El, without it being true.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

  162. #162 Elwood Herring
    April 27, 2009

    Exodus 34:1

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Hew thee two tables of stone like unto the first: and I will write upon these tables the words that were in the first tables, which thou brakest.

    Exodus 34:27

    And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: … And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

    Take your pick.

  163. #163 Chiroptera
    April 27, 2009

    squidbaite, #158: …but you suck at religious accuracy.

    It’s not uncommon for the details in fables and fairy tales to change in the retelling.

  164. #164 CJO
    April 27, 2009

    You probably still belive that there are “lost” gospels.

    Meaning what, exactly? There are certainly examples of the genre composed in the first and early second centuries that are not included in the canon. What is it that you think we believe that you do not about the so-called apocryphal early Christian texts?

  165. #165 squidbait
    April 27, 2009

    Then the LORD said to Moses, “Tell the Israelites this: ‘You have seen for yourselves that I have spoken to you from heaven. Exodus 20:22

    Also read chapter 19 to see the rest of the story of how God told Moses, not the people. The people were never allowed on that mountain. They heard what was going on, but Moses was the official spoksperson.

  166. #166 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    why don’t they just swap the P for the D and be done with it?

  167. #167 Elwood Herring
    April 27, 2009

    You probably still belive that there are “lost” gospels.

    Well if they are completely “lost”, then who would know if they existed at all? And how would anyone know when they’d all been found?

  168. #168 Anonymous
    April 27, 2009

    >>>The true religion is not a “specific religion” to their minds, it’s just The One True Religion

    …known unto wise Canadians as ice hockey…

  169. #169 Glen Davidson
    April 27, 2009

    Here’s what Exodus states immediately following the list of 10 commandments:

    And all the people heard these words spoken by the Lord God; and they saw the mountain smoking, and the lightning flashing, and they were frightened. They said to Moses: “Let not God speak to us any more; for the sound of his voice will take away our lives. Let God speak to you, Moses, and do you speak to us God’s words.”

    Gee, I wonder why they didn’t want god to speak to them any more, if god had not spoken the commandments to them.

    Your text does not contradict these texts, either. Which is not to suggest that the Bible does not contradict itself in many other places.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

  170. #170 wench
    April 27, 2009

    Every school should have the wiccan rede inscribed in stone over the front door: “Harm None”. It’s much more comprehensive than the 10 commandments.

  171. #171 Dwatney
    April 27, 2009

    They also explicitly denounce bail-outs, but we see how well they followed that one.

  172. #172 CJO
    April 27, 2009

    Jeez, squidbait, you suck at religious accuracy.

  173. #173 Glen Davidson
    April 27, 2009

    And here’s the prelude to the 10 commandments:

    And God said to Moses:

    “Let none of the people go up on the mount, or come near to touch it. If even one of your cattle or sheep shall touch the mountain it must be killed. This is a holy place, where God will show his glory.”

    And a few days after this, the people heard the voice as of many trumpets sounding on the top of the mountain. They looked, and saw that the mountain was covered with clouds and smoke, and lightnings were flashing from it, while the thunder rolled and crashed. And the mountain shook and trembled, as though an earthquake were tearing it in pieces.

    The people were filled with alarm. They came out of their tents, and ran back from the foot, of the mountain, and stood far off, trembling with fear. Then God spoke in the hearing of all the people, as with a voice of thunder, and said:

    “I am the Lord thy God, who brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.”

    And then God spoke to all the people the words of the Ten Commandments, to which you have listened many times. The words are these:

    I.
    Thou shalt have none other gods but me.

    Does squidbait think that El could not speak to the people while they were not on the mountain?

    More importantly, who cares about this written nonsense? Except that squidbait claims that we don’t know the Bible, when he clearly does not know how the 10 commandments were originally “spoken by god” to the people. Some of whom probably would have written it down, had it truly occurred.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

  174. #174 echidna
    April 27, 2009

    Squidbait,

    You people may know your germs and molecules and evolution just fine, but you suck at religious accuracy.

    As others have told you, you have it backwards. “We people” know how to read for ourselves, is all.

    The trick to understanding the Bible is to not rely on what others who take verses out of context are telling you it says. You will find that you have been lied to over and over again about what the Bible says, and does not say. You can find this out for yourself as follows:
    When you are asked to read a verse from the Bible, read the whole chapter. When you are asked to read a chapter, read the whole book.

    So now, if you are asked to look at Matthew 5:27, read the whole of Matthew 5. Instead of Exodus 19, read all of Exodus.

    Now reflect on whether the text actually says what you are told it says.

    Once you have verified for yourself that you are being lied to by your church (and if you let yourself contemplate the possibility, you will indeed verify this), then the next step is to think about what the Bible actually is compared with what your church tells you it is.

    If you choose to embark on this journey, let us know how you go.

  175. #175 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    I’m disappointed that my coinage, cowgull, hasn’t taken off to refer to them

    I like it, Emmett.
    Why don’t you add it to the vernacular?
    http://www.urbandictionary.com/add.php?word=cowgull

  176. #176 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    You probably still belive that there are “lost” gospels.

    Yeah there is no Apocrypha.

    /eyeroll

  177. #177 Aquaria
    April 27, 2009

    It’s the same idea as allowing the practice of any religion while also paying homage to our religious foundations.

    You know, the problem with theotards for Jebus and thinking that the nation was founded on their retarded values, and that it sez so in the Constitution, is that they make it clear that they a) haven’t read the Constitution all the way through, b) that the parts they think they know, they don’t, and c) what they might actually know they haven’t thought through entirely.

    Let’s take how theotards for Jebus always say that the 10 Commandments are the foundation of everything 4EVA!!!!1111!!!. Have they really contrasted it to that pesky first amendment clause about religion?

    Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof

    What morons like this week’s troll haven’t considered is that this simple statement violates the 1st Commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.

    If this were a Jebus nation, being a Hindu would not be allowed to worship his deities before the Hebrew’s celestial lunatic–by order of the 1st commandment. But a Hindu can worship Vishnu and Ganesh and Siva, before any other god. It’s legally protected, and there’s not a damned thing any theotard for Jebus can do to stop them via the US Government.

    The founders intentionally jabbed a finger in the eye of religion with that one clause: And then they gave it a sucker punch by making the very next statement of 1st Amendment rights: Freedom of speech. Yeah, people could speak their minds–including calling religion fucking stupid, and the US Government wouldn’t arrest or torture or murder them for it.

    But keep making yourselves look like morons, Xians. I’m laughing at you for seeing America as the gov’t that your imaginary friend loves best, when that gov’t essentially gave your 1st Commandment the finger.

  178. #178 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Poor Squidbait, not realizing most of us have read the bible (oddly enough, it seems to be the first step toward atheism for many ex-theists). We also have an expert verse slinger in Patricia, and Owlmirror who will cite the verse in the original Aramic. Most theist run away with their tail between their legs.

  179. #179 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    Seems like the Grand Old Party for Jebus are pretty much all defending the torture of, and extraction of false confessions from mooslims…

    the Inquisition of our times.
    when’s the next Age of Enlightenment due?

  180. #180 squidbait
    April 27, 2009

    Is anyone a Godophobe here? If so, here’s a bit of bad news for you. It seems Russia is more free than we are now. I bet don’t have those pesky “right wing extremists” citing verses do they?

    Russian church asks to have Christianophobia listed as form of discrimination
    http://www.lifesitenews.com/ldn/2009/apr/09042207.html

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Christian_discrimination

    —————–

    Go ahead and cite those verses in any language. God still knows what they say and who knows, maybe a Muslim will see them and ask about Jesus.

    Cite John 3:16 in Aramaic and ancient Hebrew.

    Actually it does not bother me. I would not mind learning a little Hebrew and a trip to the Holy Land – or what’s left of it after HAMAS and Hezbollah nearly destroyed it.

  181. #181 Rick R
    April 27, 2009

    Godophobe? I’ve heard that term on here before, and recently too.

    Is “squidbait” a sockpuppet of a recently banned troll?

  182. #182 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    You call that more free?

    You’re an idiot.

  183. #183 squidbait
    April 27, 2009

    I wonder how much money HAMAS will donate to Obama’s next election? They should have saved their $20,000 to buy more rockets to fire at civilians in Israel. What am I talking about? They get the rockets from Iran smuggled into Syria controlled Lebanon free of charge now!

  184. #184 DaveL
    April 27, 2009

    Is anyone a Godophobe here?

    Not tonight. They’re all in group therapy with the vampirophobes, the dragonophobes, and the trollophobes.

  185. #185 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    I wonder how much money HAMAS will donate to Obama’s next election? They should have saved their $20,000 to buy more rockets to fire at civilians in Israel. What am I talking about? They get the rockets from Iran smuggled into Syria controlled Lebanon free of charge now!

    Do you have a point or are you just going to keep crapping all over the place?

  186. #186 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    Is anyone a Godophobe here?

    Nope. But Gnomes, Elves, Leprechauns, and the Wee Folk in the Forest give me the willies.

  187. #187 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    April 27, 2009

    For Squidbait to have a point, he would have to show some intelligence. Lights on, nobody home. Which he shows by posting here.

  188. #188 squidbait
    April 27, 2009

    Let’s face it, Russia is still a largely communist country controlled by Putin but disguised as a democracy. Ever heard of those youth camps over there that teach good things about Putin? Sound familiar? Americorps – Obama?

    Anyway, churches are grwoing in Russia like never before. I have a cousin that has been to Moscow numerous times as a missionary and did not carry enough Bubles for people who asked for one. Churches are grwoing there. And so is their voice. I suspect that in 20 more years Russian society (not government) will be as conservative as America was in the 1950s. A word of wisdom Russia – never allow your enemies (including the U.S.) to teach at your universities. They will only brainwash your youth and chnage the culture to a raving hethen culture with no boundaries and no morals and no foundation in which to stand.

    In some ways, yes Russia is more free. No ACLU, no GLBT, no PETA, no HAMAS, no illegal aliens, no problem. We were once free like that. Now we answer to lawyers, unions, confused genders, and Godophobes. America is dead. Resurrection anyone? Maybe in 2010.

  189. #189 Josh
    April 27, 2009

    Do you have a point or are you just going to keep crapping all over the place?

    Huh. Are you trying to have us re-live the Therion event?

  190. #190 Badger3k
    April 27, 2009

    #130 “I’ve always wondered about “Thou shalt not kill” – it’s a total blanket statement; it doesn’t say “Thou shalt not kill people” does it? Thou shalt not kill. Period.

    It’s a mistranslation. The original refers to murder.”

    From the few Hebrew scholars I know, and from some of the biblical scholars, the word used for “kill” there was used in other places with the clear meaning of “kill”, not “murder”. I’d have to find that analysis, since I don’t read Hebrew (yet) and can’t read it for myself (and I’d have to look at the oldest texts instead of modern translations).

    Re – the writing of the ten commandments. Don’t forget that since the Exodus never happened, or at least never happened at that time and at such a large scale (evidence is sketchy on some smaller proto-Israelite/Canaanite events around the Hyksos time period, IIRC), the whole “I brought you out of Egypt” thing is a crock.

  191. #191 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    squidbait – Yes, we know how deficit we are in biblical accuracy. Thank you for your concern.

  192. #192 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Yawn, a meaningless post by Squidbait. Godbots are such stupid bores.

  193. #193 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    Let’s face it, Russia is still a largely communist country controlled by Putin but disguised as a democracy. Ever heard of those youth camps over there that teach good things about Putin? Sound familiar? Americorps – Obama?

    For fuck sake that was stupid. Show me how they are the same?

    Anyway, churches are grwoing in Russia like never before. I have a cousin that has been to Moscow numerous times as a missionary and did not carry enough Bubles for people who asked for one. Churches are grwoing there. And so is their voice. I suspect that in 20 more years Russian society (not government) will be as conservative as America was in the 1950s. A word of wisdom Russia – never allow your enemies (including the U.S.) to teach at your universities. They will only brainwash your youth and chnage the culture to a raving hethen culture with no boundaries and no morals and no foundation in which to stand.

    Religion is the antithesis to freedom. It is all about control. More religion is the sign of less rational thinking and more fall in line subservience.

    In some ways, yes Russia is more free. No ACLU, no GLBT, no PETA, no HAMAS, no illegal aliens, no problem. We were once free like that. Now we answer to lawyers, unions, confused genders, and Godophobes. America is dead. Resurrection anyone? Maybe in 2010.

    You obviously don’t know shit about the ACLU past listening to some other ignorant idiots.

    How GLBT people are anti-freedom is a new one. Care to explain? Try and not quote any freepers.

    Holy Shit I can agree on PETA. Fuck them. But again, why would disallowing them mean more freedom? You keep using that word free, but i don’t think you know what it means.

    Also tell me what HAMAS has to do with anything?

  194. #194 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    Anyway, churches are grwoing in Russia like never before.

    It would be kind of hard for them to not be, if you know anything about recent history, you dolt.

    Dammit, Sergei… we didn’t have any churches in this town 30 years ago, when we weren’t allow to have them. Now we have 2! 2 Churches! They are growing like never before…. except way back when Christianity first came here.

  195. #195 squidbait
    April 27, 2009

    POINT:

    OBAMA TAKES HAMAS MONEY…oops. That’s illegal. UPDATE: Here’s what it appears the Obama people are lying about now….wait till you read THIS addendum to …
    gollygeeez.blogspot.com/2008/08/obama-takes-hamas-moneyoops-thats.html

    ————–

    Was the $900 million that Obama promised Gaza preordained before his eletion? Did it have anything to do with the $20,000 that he recieved from them in his election? Why would anyone give HAMAS (he claims GAZA) money? Does Obama want to help HAMAS? He is the most anti-Israel man e have ever had in power.

    http://www.newsmax.com/insidecover/Hamas_Endorses_Obama/2008/04/17/88754.html

    ———————

    Palestinians donate $29500 to Obama -. Hamas Gazan brothers’ illegal contributions listed in government election filings …
    http://www.israpundit.com/2008/?p=1737

    ————————–

  196. #196 a_ray_in_dilbert_space
    April 27, 2009

    Squidbait, a modest proposal:

    Go to Russia. Please. Take all your bigoted, misogynic, moronic friends with you. You’ll be happier. I promise.

  197. #197 Gruesome Janine
    April 27, 2009

    Squidbait has sunk into total incoherence. Squidbait should just go home to Freepland where there are other paranoid people who understand what he means.

    Oh, and Squidbait, I am ever so sorry that my existence takes away from your freedom. What a difficult life you must live.

  198. #198 Chiroptera
    April 27, 2009

    Squidbait, I think that you need to take your meds. You’re rapidly loosing focus. Seriously.

  199. #199 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    I wait squidbait to tell me about why the ACLU and GLBT people take away from his freedoms.

  200. #200 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Still no intelligence from Squidbait. Must be defective. I’ll have to call TrollsRUs? for a discounted rebate.

  201. #201 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    wait = want

  202. #202 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    I wait squidbait to tell me about why the ACLU and GLBT people take away from his freedoms.

    can’t get away with beating up “niggers” and “fags” anymore… the peaceful Christians hate when you take that “right” away from them.

  203. #203 Rick R
    April 27, 2009

    Godophobia. You gotta love the True Nutbags?.

    Godophobia? Fear of god(s) that don’t exist? Not so much.

    Christianophobia- fear of said non-existent deities ignorant and deluded followers who want to destroy the US and inflict real harm on the majority of it’s citizens? You betcha! *wink*

    And for good reason.

    Really squidbait, Russia sounds like just the ticket for you. I’ll look up airfare and departure times for ya if you’d like.

  204. #204 dogmeatib
    April 27, 2009

    Also read chapter 19 to see the rest of the story of how God told Moses, not the people. The people were never allowed on that mountain. They heard what was going on, but Moses was the official spoksperson.

    Convenient, eh?

    Sorry squidbait, but there are, quite obviously, “lost” Gospels and other religious writings from the early church. Any organization which meets multiple times to establish an orthodox position on issues and then sets about to suppress all non-orthodox documents will, inevitably, miss a few. You can choose not to accept them, but given that they are the product of man, accepted or rejected by man, they are of equal value to those of us who do not accept your faith, namely somewhere in the neighborhood of zero. I mean really, you’re talking about a religious tradition founded upon a handful of notecards, scraps, and shredded documents spanning centuries before you have a “complete” Bible and even then it is open to debate.

    Historically speaking, the foundations of Christianity are almost laughable.

  205. #205 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Dang, I had to go look up what a freeper is.
    This might go better with some sangria.

    OT – but who cares, Rev. BigDumbChimp, I measured the hops vines today, the Mt. Hood’s are 4’7″ high! That is a record before the first week in May.

  206. #206 Monado
    April 27, 2009

    And you could also post on your wall the various versions of the Golden Rule from different religions, the 108 Buddhist sins, the reason for Ramadan (to remember the suffering of the poor and hungry), and the Hindu rationale that Cow Protection is the highest good of humanity and why you should honor cows more than your own mother. {“Discuss.”) And definitely get in the Sikh principles of righteous living and service to community.

  207. #207 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    You grow hops?

    Damn you should make a killing if you are growing to sell. I understand that the hops shortage is getting serious.

    I have a friend who owns Sweetwater brewery in Atlanta and I think they were smart in buying hops “futures” but the rest of the country (and world for that matter) is struggling.

  208. #208 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    Dang, I had to go look up what a freeper is.

    Whole different plane of existence over there… and if Gawd is in that plane, I hope it crashes into the Vatican. :)

  209. #209 Rick R
    April 27, 2009

    “Historically speaking, the foundations of Christianity are almost laughable.”

    I look at it as the “Cocktail napkin/ old ATM receipt” religion.

  210. #210 dogmeatib
    April 27, 2009

    I look at it as the “Cocktail napkin/ old ATM receipt” religion.

    Does explain the Republican acceptance of such a tale, I read about the Bush administration granting a contract in Iraq that had, quite literally, been written on a cocktail napkin…

    Boggles the mind…

  211. #211 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Last year we had so many more hops than the husband used to make beer that I made lavender & hops sleep pillows. (The beer drinkers just burst into tears) They sold like mad.

  212. #212 Mike
    April 27, 2009

    To relieve religious frustration, here’s an online game where you can be Jesus, Mohammed or Buddha (etc.) and beat the crap out of the other gods/prophets. The final showdown is against Xenu, of course. The Jesus vs. God fight is a refreshing take on the Trinity, especially considering that they can both launch the Holy Ghost as a weapon on each other.

    http://www.molleindustria.org/faith-fighter

  213. #213 raven
    April 27, 2009

    Squidbait is just bringing up the Big Guns. When he is done, you won’t know what hit you.

    1. Obama doesn’t have a birth certificate. He is really a Kenyan, Moslem Terrorist.

    2. The new swine flu is a man made virus released by the Illuminati, Democrats, elves, and Obama so they can reduce the earth’s population enough for better trout fishing.

    3. UFOs are piloted by demons from hell and Obama. They will be landing in your back yard and taking away your guns and making you marry your dog.

    There is probably more but keeping up with the Sarah Palin fan clubs is difficult. I wonder if squidbait is hyper-religious because he is crazy or a crazy that went hyperreligious?

  214. #214 Gruesome Janine
    April 27, 2009

    Sorry Patricia. I thought the term was well known enough. At least it is easy enough to find out what it is.

  215. #215 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    To relieve religious frustration, here’s an online game where you can be Jesus, Mohammed or Buddha (etc.) and beat the crap out of the other gods/prophets.

    Ha! Jebus jabbed that Eddifant into pulp. One round was enough, thanks. :)

  216. #216 Prem
    April 27, 2009

    P.Z.,

    Thanks again for the Ashland visit. I much enjoyed the conversations we had.

    Prem

  217. #217 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    No worries, it’s all part of your awesome gruesomeness. :)

    Actually, I’m in a delightful mood because my egg check came today and it is sweeet! Well, and add Dr. Squidbait here to teach me all about the bible… oh wait, then I can’t be an ignorant slut anymore.

  218. #218 Janine, Ignorant Slut
    April 27, 2009

    As long as I am here, there will be an ignorant slut around.

  219. #219 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 27, 2009

    I have to wonder if Squidbait is a Ron Paul supporter…

  220. #220 chrisD
    April 27, 2009

    Bubles

    Pronounced ‘buh-buls’ or ‘boo-buls’?

    As for the former I reckon squidbait blows plenty of them using his/her constant stream of dribble. I advise him/her: mind the keyboard, seems some is spilling over into your posts.

  221. #221 Monado
    April 27, 2009

    Not sure where to put this: a representative has had a narrow escape after her car was rear-ended by an apparently drunk driver.

    It’s frightening how fragile life is, sometimes.

  222. #222 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Perhaps Dr. Squidbait will enlighten us as to which particular level of hell ignorant hillbilly sluts go to vs. ignorant lesbian sluts. The studies, lab results and documentation should be fascinating.

  223. #223 postman jim
    April 27, 2009

    What do you think of Artist Michael D’Antuono’s painting “The Truth” ? featuring Obama with his arms outstretched and wearing a crown of thorns upon his head ? will be unveiled on April 29 at the Square’s South Plaza.?

    http://www.sodahead.com/question/344803/what-do-you-think-of-artist-michael-dantuonos-painting-the-truth-featuring-obama-with-his-arms-outstretched-and-wearing-a-crown-of-thorns-upon-his-head-will-be-unveiled-on-april-29-at-the-squares-south-plaza/

  224. #224 Monado
    April 27, 2009

    #132, eating only windfall fruit and undernourished.

  225. #225 chrisD
    April 27, 2009

    #132, eating only windfall fruit and undernourished.

    As long as you don’t eat the seeds. Because those seeds are potential life, and as you’re well aware potentiality is equivalent to actuality.

  226. #226 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Raven, Oh dear! Do you think I should barricade my pullets in their coop to protect them from Illuminati/demon underage chicken molesters?!

    Don’t these Freepers sent out colored warning alerts? And what about the hops?

    Won’t anyone think of the hops!

    pfffft!

  227. #227 Monado
    April 27, 2009

    #171, Wench, even more elegant is, “An’ you harm no one, do as you will.”

    An’ = and ==> So long as.

  228. #228 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    What do you think of Artist Michael D’Antuono’s painting “The Truth” ? featuring Obama with his arms outstretched and wearing a crown of thorns upon his head ? will be unveiled on April 29 at the Square’s South Plaza.?

    There are a bunch of ideas to take away from it. It’s art. Even if the artist claims it to be something else. It’s art, and that’s what art is supposed to do. Now, sometimes art becomes propaganda, and that’s not cool… I remember an image from India that was cooped not so long ago… didn’t go over well in the end, it turns out.
    As for the Painter’s talent, I’d have to see a better image.

  229. #229 Feynmaniac
    April 27, 2009

    What kinda of bizzaro world is this?

    A conservative praising Russia? Liberals telling said conservative to go move there?

  230. #230 Monado
    April 27, 2009

    #178, I’m guessing it’s the same logic that lets them oppose abortion because women who want abortions are sluts–except, of course, when they want one, because that’s *different*!

  231. #231 DLC
    April 27, 2009

    So, they want no inconsistent bronze age myths but their own favored brand. They want to teach the difference between a democracy and a republic but without mentioning that the United States is a hybrid of those two. It makes me wish I could go back in time and explain why Zorg the caveman got zorched by lightning and that it was not the storm god.
    I sometimes wonder how far advanced we would be had the early people been more rational and less prone to superstition.

  232. #232 Rick T
    April 27, 2009

    Squidbutt, you don’t seem to know shit about scripture. John 3:16 wasn’t written in Aramaic or Hebrew, but Greek. You dumb ass. Even so, we don’t have a single original scripture that has survived for us to see or examine. You seem to hold the Bible in such high regard and yet all you have are copies of copies of copies, (and so on) all of which have discrepancies with each other. This must exercise your faith quite a bit.

  233. #233 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    What kinda of bizzaro world is this?

    A conservative praising Russia? Liberals telling said conservative to go move there?

    bwaahahahahahahaha….. wait…. hmmmmmmmmmmm…… ahhhhhh!

    brilliant observation, btw. :)

  234. #234 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    You must be some kind of liberal Rush hating commie Rick T, what do facts have to do with anything?

  235. #235 Gruesome Janine
    April 27, 2009

    Facts are stupid things.

  236. #236 RickT
    April 27, 2009

    Patricia,
    I don’t know about the commie part but the rest sounds about right.

  237. #237 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    A Brother in my church used to say to me:

    Sister Patricia, when someone tries to confuse you with facts, you just look in your bible, and you’ll find The Truth.

  238. #238 nothing's sacred
    April 27, 2009

    But what is murder? Isn’t murder “killing in situations when you aren’t allowed to kill”?

    I answered in response to someone asking if killing animals was included. Murder refers only to humans; in fact the original word was more like “manslay”.

    It is wrong by definition!

    Do you really think that “It’s wrong by definition!” is an effective moral argument? Aside from that, you’re wrong on the facts — show me any dictionary that says so. Murder is usually defined as unlawful killing, especially with malice aforethought. The Ten Commandments are considered a sort of law, laying out what one must or must not do.

  239. #239 Gruesome Janine
    April 27, 2009

    Sister Patricia, you have just made my brain hurt.

    I think I will become a Gumby. I just need to find a ‘kerchief and two bricks.

  240. #240 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Rick T, You can trade commie for tree hugger, anti-corporate wealth hater, bird watcher, person who can read…

  241. #241 nothing's sacred
    April 27, 2009

    What do you think of …

    The same thing I think of any link to sodahead linked to WorldNutDaily.

  242. #242 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Oops, sorry Janine! Have a sinful adult beverage, you’ll feel better.

  243. #243 nothing's sacred
    April 27, 2009

    It’s frightening how fragile life is, sometimes.

    Um, to make that point wouldn’t it make sense to point to one of the many people who actually died today?

  244. #244 Ichthyic
    April 27, 2009

    There is probably more but keeping up with the Sarah Palin fan clubs is difficult. I wonder if squidbait is hyper-religious because he is crazy or a crazy that went hyperreligious?

    it’s a co-dependency thing, I think.

  245. #245 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    just look in your bible, and you’ll find The Truth.

    That’s how I was converted, I read the thing and realized how retarded it was… then I chose what was behind curtain number two, or as like to call it.. reality.

    / not converted… thought it shite from the getgo

  246. #246 Tulse
    April 27, 2009

    What kinda of bizzaro world is this? A conservative praising Russia?

    In Russia, the conservatives praise you!

  247. #247 Ichthyic
    April 27, 2009

    about the painting:

    1st, I think you could have shortened the link and bypassed your site without losing much.

    2nd, the artist himself makes it pretty clear what he thinks:

    “Aided by the media, politics has taken a nasty turn in the last decade and I firmly believe that this is one of the underlying causes of our nation’s current problems,” says D’Antuono.”

    now let’s see, what’s been a major influence concerning many politicians, on both the right and the left, for the last 10 years that the artist might find notable enough to paint a politician as a religious figure?

    hmm.

    could it be religion itself?

    Could be. McCain himself warned his own party about the negative influence religion was having on the GoP in 2000, before embracing it in the last election. many current GoP members seem to think Palin represents the way the party should go. Many GoP consultants have warned that the party must turn away from religious influence on hotbutton issues. Surely seeing a democrat continuing such things as GW’s “faith based initiative” might be setting off warning bells.

    OTOH, it could, based on the fact the artist isn’t previously known for this kind of work at all (political commentary), be a simple exploitation of the current climate for notoriety and a bit of cash inflow.

  248. #248 Ragutis
    April 27, 2009

    Posted by: Patricia, OM April 27, 2009 10:33 PM

    You must be some kind of liberal Rush hating commie

    HEY! “Moving Pictures” is one of the greatest albums of… huh, what? Oh. Limbaugh. Ahem… sorry.

    Posted by: raven | April 27, 2009 9:39 PM

    2. The new swine flu is a man made virus released by the Illuminati, Democrats, elves, and Obama so they can reduce the earth’s population enough for better trout fishing.

    Close. Glenn Beck is claiming it’s an Obama plot/smokescreen to get Sebelius’ confirmation rushed through.

    Where the hell did the squidiot come from? Apparently Russia is free because people can get away with discrimination and hate crimes much easier there? OK.. and I guess their economy is booming because all the nationalist skinhead groups there are recruiting? Is this a new tactic of the godbots? Say increasingly ludicrous shit and claim victory when the rational thinkers and the educated have headdesked themselves to death?

  249. #249 Ichthyic
    April 27, 2009

    Is this a new tactic of the godbots? Say increasingly ludicrous shit and claim victory when the rational thinkers and the educated have headdesked themselves to death?

    whaddya mean “new”?

    I have dents in my forehead that are at least 30 years old.

  250. #250 Patricia, OM
    April 27, 2009

    Newfie – See how you are. If you didn’t believe it from the get go you aren’t qualified to be an ignorant slut. Sorry :(

  251. #251 Newfie
    April 27, 2009

    If you didn’t believe it from the get go you aren’t qualified to be an ignorant slut. Sorry :(

    I bought the Jebus story for years, but never his divinity… New Age Preacher of his day, is what I could figure.. cause I already knew there was no God.. maybe it was our public school system… but we were taught about all religions… but then you learn about droughts, and weather patterns, in geography class… and you go, “That makes sense.”

  252. #252 Monado
    April 27, 2009

    NS, it’s complicated.

  253. #253 Rick T
    April 27, 2009

    “Rick T, You can trade commie for tree hugger, anti-corporate wealth hater, bird watcher, person who can read…”
    Patricia,
    If I get to choose, I pick anti corporate wealth hater and reader (that’s where those pesky facts come from). The birds can watch themselves, those perverts.

  254. #254 Blue Fielder
    April 28, 2009

    Gods never scared me.

    Marsupials scare me.

    ‘Cuz they’re fast.

  255. #255 Krystalline Apostate
    April 28, 2009

    squidbait – your very pseudonym betrays your purpose.

    A word of wisdom Russia – never allow your enemies (including the U.S.) to teach at your universities. They will only brainwash your youth and chnage the culture to a raving hethen culture with no boundaries and no morals and no foundation in which to stand.

    Yay-yep, becuz them damn in-tay-lechewels might just poe-lute our chillun’s bawdily fu-LUIDS, hyuk.
    Isn’t anti-intellectualism one of Eco’s 13 signs of a brownshirt?

  256. #256 Stygian Lamprey
    April 28, 2009

    Does anybody wanna screw with some Creationist dolts? Apparently God has a Facebook fan page with over 1.4 million members…every one of them convinced that Pascal’s Wager is impervious to refutation.

    http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=21493359802&topic=8719#/pages/God/21493359802?v=box_3&viewas=34307241

  257. #257 Satan's Little Helper
    April 28, 2009

    Robert got wtfpwned. Good job, guys.

  258. #258 Jadehawk
    April 28, 2009

    >>>The true religion is not a “specific religion” to their minds, it’s just The One True Religion

    …known unto wise Canadians as ice hockey…

    Me Like Hockey!

  259. #259 scooter
    April 28, 2009

    Godophobe literally translates to ‘God Fearing’ which is a term that religiots use as a high compliment.

    Somebody is stepping on their own dick around here.

  260. #260 Christophe Thill
    April 28, 2009

    Those guys are political ignorants, by the way. You don’t teach “the difference between a democracy and a republic”. You can teach the difference between a republic and a monarchic, aristocratic or theocratic regime. You can teach the difference between a democracy and a non-democratic government. You can also introduce a third, independant concept: human rights (a perfectly democratic vote can lead to conduct atrocities on a minority; or you can have a democracy for slaveowners only).

  261. #261 Samantha Vimes
    April 28, 2009

    They fail on the other half of both statements, too– schools should not endorse any specific philosophy, but should emphasize the intentions of our founding fathers, etc.

    The idea of Natural Law, on which the idea of human rights was founded, is a philosophy. How can you endorse our governmental system without endorsing philosophies?

    But the “not endorse a specific religion”/”post the 10 Commandments” thing means, simply, that they don’t see Christianity and Judaism as being “specific religions”. They think it means simply that you can’t have a Southern Baptist public school– enforced general Christianity is simply seen as the norm.

  262. #262 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 28, 2009

    squidbait – your very pseudonym betrays your purpose.

    humm.

    good point

    damn it.

  263. #263 Ranson
    April 28, 2009

    @Blue Fielder

    What about Frankenstein?

  264. #264 Pablo
    April 28, 2009

    Do you really think that “It’s wrong by definition!” is an effective moral argument? Aside from that, you’re wrong on the facts — show me any dictionary that says so. Murder is usually defined as unlawful killing,

    Who said anything about a “moral argument”? I am talking about the stupidity of having a commandment forbidding something that is wrong by definition.

    Why do you need a commandment preventing murder? As you say murder is UNLAWFUL killing. Hence, it is against the law to kill. Why would an omnipotent god need to waste a commandment against doing something that is illegal? Doesn’t “illegal” mean you aren’t supposed to do it in the first place?

    If the commandment is actually “Thou shalt not murder” it is about as meaningful as a rule that says, “Obey all rules.”

    I’m not saying that is or isn’t what the commandment says (I wasn’t the one who made the claim), I am just pointing out that IF that is what it says, then God is an idiot.

  265. #265 Dave
    April 28, 2009

    The new swine flu is a man made virus released by the Illuminati, Democrats, elves, and Obama so they can reduce the earth’s population enough for better trout fishing.

    Thats TRUTH!!!1! Theres proof: If you draw a circle around the states where the swine flu has infected the US: NY, California, Texas, Ohio and Kansas, it makes an “O” which we all know stands for Obama!

  266. #266 catgirl
    April 28, 2009

    So whenever someone says “America is a republic, not a democracy,” what they’re really saying is that we should prohibit women, and perhaps black people, from voting.

    This is completely accurate. They want the power to vote, but only for themselves.

  267. #267 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    April 28, 2009

    Republic not a democracy!!!!!1111111 beware the militant homosexual agenda

    ugh

  268. #268 Pablo
    April 28, 2009

    In terms of the republic vs democracy thing, my Dad, a guy who is a Fox News/Sean Hannity/Rush Limbaugh/Barack Hussein Obama republican, is the one who keeps saying, “majority rules.”

  269. #269 Ferdinand
    April 29, 2009

    “in gold we trust” was printed on all dollar bank notes when the gold standard was the rule.
    Clearly enough it meant you could exchange the facial value for its equivalent in gold.
    When this system became obsolete, the “L” of gold was removed and since then you may exchange dollars for their value en god…

  270. #270 Jim & Joey
    April 29, 2009

    I think Glen’s right. It’s most likely related to that “Christianity isn’t a religion, it’s a relationship with god” horseshit they sometimes try to pull.

    RED JOHN! HEY! OVER HERE!

    Where did you fish out that quote. I wanna use it… um… you know… like EVERYWHERE and would like to know who to credit.

    I’ve never heard it put so well. *ponders on it* That really does boil down the everything of it.

  271. #271 Ichthyic
    April 29, 2009

    my Dad, a guy who is a Fox News/Sean Hannity/Rush Limbaugh/Barack Hussein Obama republican, is the one who keeps saying, “majority rules.”

    have him read some of the writings of people who were influential in the thought that went into constructing the US constitution, like John Stuart Mill:

    http://www.serendipity.li/jsmill/jsmill.htm

    Even my always-vote-rethuglican pop got something out of it that made him stop and think.

  272. #272 nothing's sacred
    April 30, 2009

    NS, it’s complicated.

    I’m good at complicated. My point stands.

  273. #273 Palliser
    April 30, 2009

    On republics and democracies:

    The Republic of South Africa was a republic but not a democracy prior to 1994. Since then it has been a republic as well as a democracy…at least for now!

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