Pharyngula

I’m slamming the door shut on yet another thread that will not die, which was in turn the progeny of another enduring thread — as you might guess, this one was fueled by a thickheaded creationist’s refusal to acknowledge the evidence. Alan Clarke, if you start regurgitating creationist BS here again, I will shut you down. Otherwise, if necessary, converse here.

Comments

  1. #1 cicely
    May 18, 2009

    Bacon?

  2. #2 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    May 18, 2009

    finally

  3. #3 Jared Cormier
    May 18, 2009

    Creationist: one who does not understand the processes of geology, biology, cosmology, or astronomy.

  4. #4 creotard
    May 18, 2009

    Yuo dirty evilutionests think bakon just came to life naturally?!!!!!11 It was clearly teh HAND OF JEBUS1!!!1 i no u idiots wont understand, so ill just pray for u

  5. #5 Jadehawk
    May 18, 2009

    well, to repeat my question to Satan from the now dead thread:

    anyway… about that Coca-Cola in hell… dare I hope it’s Mexican Coca-Cola, instead of the American stuff…?

  6. #6 Glen Davidson
    May 18, 2009

    as you might guess, this one was fueled by a thickheaded creationist’s refusal to acknowledge the evidence.

    Well, if people would just admit that god can do anything, and quit trying to claim that “fulfilled predictions” point to something other than god, then everything would be all right.

    And since disagreeing with magic is persecution, then it’s the fault of all those people who want “evidence.” After all, it’s just another viewpoint that evidence points to specific causes, or that those causes become privileged when the evidence “points toward” those causes.

    I’m sure that all IDiots/cretinists would be completely happy to be prosecuted under the standards of evidence that they wish to impose upon the schools (after all, that’s what teaching ID could lead to). That they could be burned at the stake for being witches is of no consequence, especially since the atheists would be first in line.

    Glen D
    http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

  7. #7 'Tis Himself
    May 18, 2009

    Bacon and beer!

  8. #8 Dania
    May 18, 2009

    Thanks PZ. I’m curious to see if Alan is going to show up here…

  9. #9 Sgt. Obvious
    May 18, 2009

    I’m curious to see if Alan is going to show up here…

    Probably. He doesn’t seem capable of understanding when he’s been defeated.

  10. #10 AdamK
    May 18, 2009

    I stopped following this thread a while back, so I have no idea what this thread is about anymore.

    In my opinion, bacon is very, very yummy, and I’m not ashamed to say it.

  11. #11 Dale Husband
    May 18, 2009

    I don’t know why Bible believers get so hung up on evolution. Their REAL problem is with modern astronomy.

    http://circleh.wordpress.com/2009/05/18/the-most-idiotic-verse-in-the-bible/

    The Most Idiotic Verse in the Bible

    Genesis 1:16 ? ?God made two great lights ? the greater light to rule the day and the lesser light to rule the night. He made the stars also.?

    Of course, one looking at the night sky with no knowledge of modern astronomy would assume that the stars are nothing more than a decoration to add to the light provided by the Sun and the Moon. But in fact, many stars are far bigger and brighter than the Sun and ALL stars are also suns, greater lights in their own star systems.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I34FNr_peUk

    Had that Bible verse been inspired by the true Creator of the universe, it might have been written: ?God made billions of great lights, one of which we call the Sun that rules our days, and also made a lesser light to rule the night.?

    Ironically, in another part of the Bible, we read:

    Psalms 19:1-2: ?The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge.?

    If that is true, then clearly we need to toss out the references to the Sun, the Moon, and the stars in Genesis, since they fail to ?declare the glory of God? and also fail to ?display knowledge? like the heavens are supposed to do according to the 19th Psalm.

  12. #12 Josh
    May 18, 2009

    Thanks PZ. I’m curious to see if Alan is going to show up here…

    I dunno…given PZ’s warning

    Alan Clarke, if you start regurgitating creationist BS here again, I will shut you down.

    I think Alan is on some rather thin ice.

  13. #13 Anonymous
    May 18, 2009

    Yuo dirty evilutionests think bakon just came to life naturally?!!!!!11 It was clearly teh HAND OF JEBUS1!!!1

    No. It was clearly the hand of Satan.

  14. #14 Dania
    May 18, 2009

    *sigh*

    #13 was me.

  15. #15 Sven DiMilo
    May 18, 2009

    1381 + 1452 + 15 = 2848

    every comment is a new record!

  16. #16 Aaron Baker
    May 18, 2009

    It’s apropos of nothing, but I thought I’d post this poem here (it’s my comment on a famous saying of Nietzsche’s).

    RECURRENCE

    Joy may want deep eternity;
    But the sweaty heat of shame–
    I’d not unwind its day again,
    Though joy in endless cycles came.

  17. #17 Jeff Bell
    May 18, 2009

    I liked the part where the world is actually created twice, but in a slightly different order.

  18. #18 The Mayor of Druggachusetts
    May 18, 2009

    As Mayor of Druggachusetts, I declare this pizza awesome!

  19. #19 Numad
    May 18, 2009

    “Bacon and beer!”

    Seafood and orgy!

  20. #20 Satan
    May 18, 2009

    anyway… about that Coca-Cola in hell… dare I hope it’s Mexican Coca-Cola, instead of the American stuff…?

    It’s whatever the damned can get their ectoplasmic hands on. Sure, they get the quintessence of Coke from bottlers all over the world, including Mexico.

    However, the question that plagues damned philosophers is, is it the same thing, given that quintessence is as nonphysical as themselves?

    The arguments are all over the place; some say “Aye” and some say “Nay”, and some say that it doesn’t matter anyway.

    Humanity would be best advised to not kill themselves off. The dead have become rather fond of their quintessential swag, and given that it is imported rather than manufactured, they would be most displeased if their supply dried up.

  21. #21 RichVR
    May 18, 2009

    “Seafood and orgy!”

    Simplify, simplify!

    Seafood orgy!

  22. #22 Benjamin Geiger
    May 18, 2009

    Sven: Erm, I think we have quite a while to go before we reach Crackergate-era records. I seem to remember at least five or six consecutive threads, each of which were over a thousand comments (at which point the Scienceblogs server started crying for mercy).

  23. #23 insanecarbonbasedlifeform
    May 18, 2009
  24. #24 Jadehawk
    May 18, 2009

    well, as I’m fairly sure that the quintessence of HFCS is nastiness, I will definitely aim for Mexican Coke. If there’s no Mexican Coke in hell yet, I’ll at least have a niche to fill, business-wise, once I get there :-)

  25. #25 catta
    May 18, 2009

    Simplify, simplify!

    Seafood orgy!

    Why ruin a perfectly good orgy with seafood? Yecchh.

  26. #26 God
    May 18, 2009

    Humanity would be best advised to not kill themselves off.

    Of course, if I decide to tweak that 10km hunk of stone I have out there into an impacting trajectory, what are the damned going to do about it? Whine at Me?

  27. #27 Sven DiMilo
    May 18, 2009

    Longest comment threads ever on Pharyngula
    [note: where threads were closed and another opened explicitly to continue the closed thread, I combine the original and spillover thread-counts]

    Titanoboa! 912 (closed)

    I get email (7/26/08) 1003 (still open)

    I get email?special cracker edition! 1452 (still open)

    The Great Desecration 2353 (single thread! closed)

    EXPELLED! 2031
    Expelled! open thread 351
    total 2381

    Priorities 1480
    Fresh thread 969
    total 2449

    Frackin Cracker 1007
    Fresh Crackers 1519
    total 2526

    Current (3-thread) total: 2858

  28. #28 Satan
    May 18, 2009

    Of course, if I decide to tweak that 10km hunk of stone I have out there into an impacting trajectory, what are the damned going to do about it? Whine at Me?

    While I realize that You sometimes like crude physical humour, that strikes Me as being very much a one-time sort of joke.

    And haven’t You said that humanity itself — in the living state, I presume — is the joke that never stops being funny?

  29. #30 Sven DiMilo
    May 18, 2009

    …except that 2031 + 351 = 2382

  30. #31 Sgt. Obvious
    May 18, 2009

    If I had to guess, Benjamin Geiger is counting all of the Crackergate threads as one, whether they exist to continue closed threads or not. I think Sven’s makes more sense, though, since those each seem to involve new information popping up. They aren’t a true continuation of the same thread, they just happen to share a general topic.

  31. #32 maddogdelta
    May 18, 2009

    This is the song that never ends
    It just goes on and on my friends

  32. #33 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    May 18, 2009

    Don’t forget Ryan B. in a two month old thread. We should chase him over here too.

  33. #34 jj
    May 18, 2009

    As Mayor of Druggachusetts, I declare this pizza awesome

    I use that quote all the time, and no one ever gets the reference.
    “Remember kids, only take what you can handle, and always know your dealer”
    Yay Mr.Show

  34. #35 'Tis Himself
    May 18, 2009

    The original I have no idea what this thread is about anymore thread is fun. It’s got everything from Josh’s lessons in geology to Alan Clarke’s strange attempts to warp science into the Noachian Flood to links to bad songs of the 1970s. If you haven’t looked at the thread, it’s worth a wander.

  35. #36 Jadehawk
    May 18, 2009

    quote from article linked at #29:

    Leilani Neumann, the mother, suffered a ?physical and emotional breakdown? and needed ? wait for it ? medical attention.

    makes me want to grind her face into a cheese grater (but then I remember we’re supposed to be nice to other people); it doesn’t surprise me anymore though, at least not after reading the “only my abortion is an ethical abortion” essay. before that, I thought accusations of “denying it to others, but getting it for themselves” was cynical and maybe a straw man. I really did think that people who are “morally” opposed to something don’t think the rules don’t apply to them. wasn’t that adorably naive?

  36. #37 Blake Stacey
    May 18, 2009

    As long as we’re talking about this, that and the other. . . How bout them United States Conference of Catholic Bishops?

  37. #38 Sven DiMilo
    May 18, 2009

    UPDATE
    Further research has uncovered a few other also-ran threads:

    The Confraternity of Catholic Clergy doesn’t like me 919 (open)

    *rolls eyes* It’s a cracker, people 1293 (open)

    Mail dump 996 (open)

    FYI 1159 (open)

    Fight back against Bill Donahue! 1227
    Internet getting full, here’s a new hole to dump comments into 663
    total 1890

    other errata solicited

  38. #39 MikeM
    May 18, 2009

    Man, I go out of town for a couple days, and all hell breaks lose.

    I was in Tucson, PZ. It was hot.

    By the way, paged comments would make it so you don’t have to “close one thread and open another.”

    20 comments at a time. Your servers would jump out of their racks and smooch you for it. Perhaps I can sell you some code?

  39. #40 Watchman
    May 18, 2009

    In the immortal words of Neil Finn:

    I can’t pretend to know what you want

    But I offer love

  40. #41 Benjamin Geiger
    May 18, 2009

    I stand thoroughly corrected. Yes, I was including most of the Crackergate threads as a single entity, as the actual contents of some of the posts, while not explicitly continuing a previous thread, seemed to have little content of their own.

    (Frankly, I think the reason this group of threads is so long is that there’s no competition from *other* similar groups of threads. With Crackergate, we had updates every few days, which spawned new threads…)

  41. #42 Sphere Coupler
    May 18, 2009

    Hey, who turned the light on?

    So, just in case Rodgers and Clark need more time I’ll play the devil,s advo… I mean Gods advocate.I finally got around to looking at the hysteria about 2012 and low and behold the movie portrays a global flood, wow I could have written that one.

    A question for Josh…was there ever a time that IS recognized by our academic geology scholars where the earth was in total flood mode.

    I’m asking from 4.5 bil to now?

  42. #43 Robert Thille
    May 18, 2009

    Ewww, 20 comments per page? Yech. How about a nice threaded comment system with moderation like Slashcode, or even the DailyKos’ system?

  43. #44 Benjamin Geiger
    May 18, 2009

    If we go with paged comments, I’d prefer a much larger number per page. 100, at least. Maybe 300-500.

  44. #45 Carlie
    May 18, 2009

    Wait, you were all still hanging out over on that thread? I miss all the fun. There needs to be a “most active” five list for each blog.

  45. #46 Sven DiMilo
    May 18, 2009

    No changes!!!!

    In fact, let’s go back to the old days! Pirate Mode! And the “science only” button. In fact, what about an “atheism only” button, too? And a “weirdness only” button…

    Sub-blogs!

  46. #47 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    May 18, 2009

    Sub-blogs!

    You forgot the Cuttlefish button.

    Aaar, Avast me hearties, where be the creobots? *looks around*. Time for grog then…

  47. #48 Sphere Coupler
    May 18, 2009

    Bookmark this one Carlie, it may get very interesting.
    Science and Religion= Illusion and delusion.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tm14NI7AxtU

  48. #49 Jadehawk
    May 18, 2009

    carlie, it hasn’t been all that active recently actually… we were just all nostalgically returning to it occasionally, waiting for Alan to do his homework and then return

  49. #50 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    May 18, 2009

    waiting for Alan to do his homework and then return

    And he only did the latter. Of course, he won’t really read any real science because he might actually learn something…

  50. #51 Sven DiMilo
    May 18, 2009

    While there’s a sort of an open thread, I’d like to complain about the Shell ad that is presently at the top and right of my screen, the one that says “You won’t believe what’s about to go into your tank: Algae, tomorrow’s biofuel.”

    There is no “algae” in the picture. That frog is sitting in duckweed, the smallest of flowering plants.

  51. #52 SC, OM
    May 18, 2009

    FYI 1159 (open)

    Wasn’t FYI the one with Owlmirror’s play and JeffreyD’s great “I’m sorry” post? If so, that’s one of my favorites, along with “Judge Myers Presiding.”

  52. #53 David Marjanovi?, OM
    May 18, 2009

    Thanks, PZ!

    Don’t forget Ryan B. in a two month old thread.

    What? Who? Where?

  53. #54 NewEnglandBob
    May 18, 2009

    #51 by: Sven DiMilo:

    There are ads at the top of this page? I’ve never seen them.

  54. #55 Wowbagger, OM
    May 18, 2009

    What I liked the most about the original thread was how often Alan Clarke, in an attempt to defend his position, would cite pages which put the age of the earth at much, much older than the 6,000 years he claims it is.

    Much hilarity ensued.

  55. #56 Josh
    May 18, 2009

    A question for Josh…was there ever a time that IS recognized by our academic geology scholars where the earth was in total flood mode.

    I know of no time period where global marine inundation of all continental landmasses is proposed or evidenced.

    But give me a minute to find something and make sure. I can’t find the damn paper I need to properly answer this. Shit. Hold on.

  56. #57 Carlie
    May 18, 2009

    The EXPELLED! thread was totally awesome. *contented sigh*

  57. #58 Sven DiMilo
    May 18, 2009

    uh, yeah, I get ads at the top. I downloaded AdBlock once, but I’ve never gotten it to work.

  58. #59 David Marjanovi?, OM
    May 18, 2009

    was there ever a time that IS recognized by our academic geology scholars where the earth was in total flood mode

    Nope. The sea goes, and the sea comes, but within limits.

    How about a nice threaded comment system

    Nice, or threaded?

    Threaded systems presume that every comment replies to at most one other comment. That’s nothing short of stupid and encourages incredible waste. It also means that, when you want to return to a thread to read the commments that have accumulated since you visited last time, you can’t simply start at a number and read to the bottom ? you have to look for new comments all over the page instead. That sucks; I’m talking from experience.

    There are ads at the top of this page? I’ve never seen them.

    Smug Firefox-with-Adblock user.

  59. #60 AVSN
    May 18, 2009

    So predictable. I knew some idiot would start again with the bacon nonesense. It has gotten old. Thought this was supposed to be a science blog.

  60. #61 John Phillips, FCD
    May 18, 2009

    What ads, IE7/IEPro user.

    And, for the reasons posted by David Marjanovi?, OM, a very definite no to threading. A page might get a bit slow when the comment count rises but, IMO, that is a small price to pay for an open format. After all, I tend to find that when the comment count rises, most threaded sites are at least as slow to navigate as open format ones. Not forgetting that many comments often encompass replies to more than one original comment. David Marjanovi?, OM being particularly ‘guilty’ :) of this practise. Though I wouldn’t have a problem with an user selectable ‘# of comments/page’ option.

  61. #62 Carlie
    May 18, 2009

    I knew some idiot would start again with the bacon nonesense. It has gotten old. Thought this was supposed to be a science blog.

    It’s both.

  62. #63 John Phillips, FCD
    May 18, 2009

    AVSN, not as old as your usual content free wingeing.

  63. #64 Jadehawk
    May 18, 2009

    So predictable. I knew some idiot would start again with the bacon nonesense. It has gotten old. Thought this was supposed to be a science blog.

    your failure to understand the concept of a running joke is neither our fault nor our responsibility

  64. #65 Lowell
    May 18, 2009

    Hey! Mayor O.D. McCrack sighting at #18!

  65. #66 RockProf
    May 18, 2009

    A question for Josh…was there ever a time that IS recognized by our academic geology scholars where the earth was in total flood mode.
    I’m asking from 4.5 bil to now?

    I’m not Josh, but an academic geologist (scholarly is a stretch), and no, the Earth was never in total flood mode like the Noah story.

    Although, thinking about it, I suppose it’s possible that in its very earliest history, after the cooling of the initial “scum” crust, and before the formation of continental crust, water from volcanic outgassing and cometary impacts may have resulted in a watery planet. This would have been circa 4.5-4.4 Ga and some billion years before bacterial life developed on the planet.

  66. #67 Owlmirror
    May 18, 2009

    I downloaded AdBlock once, but I’ve never gotten it to work.

    Did you subscribe to the filters?

  67. #68 Emmet, OM
    May 18, 2009

    How about a nice threaded comment system with moderation like Slashcode

    Great dog, no!

    I’ve never seen a threaded/nested commenting system that didn’t ultimately annoy the ever-loving shite out of me and make me pine for flat comments.

    There will be civil war if they are introduced here ? I have my pitchfork ready.

  68. #69 RockProf
    May 18, 2009

    A question for Josh…was there ever a time that IS recognized by our academic geology scholars where the earth was in total flood mode.
    I’m asking from 4.5 bil to now?

    I’m not Josh, but an academic geologist (scholarly is a stretch), and no, the Earth was never in total flood mode like the Noah story.

    Although, thinking about it, I suppose it’s possible that in its very earliest history, after the cooling of the initial “scum” crust, and before the formation of continental crust, water from volcanic outgassing and cometary impacts may have resulted in a watery planet. This would have been circa 4.5-4.4 Ga and some billion years before bacterial life developed on the planet.

  69. #70 Steve P.
    May 18, 2009

    You thought this was a science blog?????????

    Er, excuse me, this is Atheism 101. Move along now.

    So predictable. I knew some idiot would start again with the bacon nonesense. It has gotten old. Thought this was supposed to be a science blog.

    .

  70. #71 Sphere Coupler
    May 18, 2009

    David you seem to know everything about everything, can you tell me, has the earth always had the same proportions of water and solids…since day one?
    If not, how have those proportions changed?
    Please be specific…peer review is your friend.

    Tough question…are you up to it?

    RockProf…Thats what I’m looking for… any papers to be had?

  71. #72 'Tis Himself
    May 18, 2009

    Originally it was bacon and lesbians, but the distaff side seems to have fallen by the wayside.

    Whenever I read one of AVSN’s posts I think of this song:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=27ZiixkruCY

  72. #73 Robert Thille
    May 18, 2009

    Slashdot (and I assume Slashcode) supports flat, sorted by newest-first/oldest-first, for people who prefer that. The idea that a threaded comment system doesn’t support a top-level reply to the general topic or multiple comments is a strawman. Of course, people who don’t care about this sub-thread about comment systems will be annoyed by it in the flat system, but in a threaded system, they could easily ignore it…

  73. #74 Nerd of Redhead, OM
    May 18, 2009

    David, he just answered. All the tripe Alan threw at us in one fell swoop. I’ll just cite Alan’s closed thread and tell him to come here.

  74. #75 eddie
    May 18, 2009

    Yeah. I suggest, politely, that advocates of threading go the way of the L-word.

  75. #76 eddie
    May 18, 2009

    Now, paged comments, there’s an idea. From a purely selfish perspective; whenever a post gets over 100 comments, my mobile browser just refuses to post comments.

  76. #77 a_ray_in_dilbert_space
    May 18, 2009

    Sphere Coupler asks “…has the earth always had the same proportions of water and solids…since day one?”

    I’m not sure this makes sense–given that Earth differentiated completely and was a molten mass for the first few hundred million years. I think most of the water on Earth actually dates from subsequent comet impacts. And of course, there have been varying amounts of ice (including “snowball Earth”) at various times.

  77. #78 Sphere Coupler
    May 18, 2009

    OK, I’m going out on a very shaky limb here,
    If the planet was covered totaly in water in the early years,you know a very long time ago,
    and if we evolved from this primordal goo,
    and if we retain some sort of primordal memory of catastrofic events that caused fear imprinting, like fear of snakes or fear of falling, you get the idea.
    Then couldn’t it be possible that the flood myth actually happened, only way long before man was evolved?
    And David, you can’t just say nope, it’s just not fair.

    Just a thought, after all, I am at the end of a very long line of evolving goo…I said GOO, not woo nerd.

  78. #79 Sphere Coupler
    May 18, 2009

    Dilbert, Day one 100% molten material/ 0% water.
    It does make sense, the percentage does change.

  79. #80 atomjack
    May 18, 2009

    @60- Science Blog with bacon on the side. What’s not to like?

  80. #81 Josh
    May 18, 2009

    A question for Josh…was there ever a time that IS recognized by our academic geology scholars where the earth was in total flood mode.

    Okay, this is going to be extremely brief, and I’m writing it quick, so I apologize for errors. We can get into this more, if you really want to, but I want to emphasize that the Precambrian is not what I work in…

    In short, though, there doesn’t appear to be any evidence for any time period on earth where we both have oceans and have no continental landmasses. Is it possible that this continental crust was totally inundated at any time? Perhaps, although we’ve got mountain building going on at the plate boundaries by the time we have oceans, so it doesn’t look like we’d have complete inundation (which is really the question). It looks like a “no” for total flood mode, even with respect to the earliest oceans.

    Before about 4.4GA (4400 million years), we think that the Earth was too hot for liquid water to condense, so despite the fact that we think crust was being subducted (and we start seeing evidence of continental crust at that point too(1)), we don’t think that any of the topographic lows were filled with oceans. However, we’ve got evidence of liquid water in some of the earliest known earth materials (~4Ga, 1). By about 3.8Ga, it looks like we’ve got oceans and spreading-centers and crustal differentiation (oceanic crust and continental crust) and whole bit going on (e.g., see 2). But at that same time, we’ve also got evidence of mountain building events that involve continental crust(3). The continents have evolved by this time into distinct oceanic and continental entities. From here on in, it’s the normal pattern of continents moving around, smacking into each other, and crust getting stuffed into subduction zones. We don’t have good paleogeographic reconstructions until about (4)7-800Ma (million years), but I’ve never seen or heard of any indication that there was a time period when all of the continental landmasses were covered in water (again though, I’m trying to think back to TAing structure in grad school for this). And of course, for the last 800 million years or so, we’ve got extremely good evidence that there has always been some dry land exposed on the continents(4-6).

    And of course, this whole comment has focused on the rocks that the Delusionists tend to completely overlook and simply dismiss as “preflood(7).”
    ____________________
    References and Notes
    1In the form of various kinds of clasts within younger sedimentary rocks and metasediments.
    2http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/abstract/315/5819/1704
    3http://www.ocean.odu.edu/~spars001/historical_geology/lecture_10/lecture_10_slides.ppt
    4http://www.scotese.com/pcanima.htm
    5http://www.scotese.com/earth.htm
    6jan.ucc.nau.edu/~rcb7/paleogeographic.html
    7You might recall Alan’s lack of interest in answering numerous questions (in Watchmen and “Son of Watchmen” both) related to how his flood model explains the Prospect Mountain Quartzite of Wheeler Peak (the mountain that “Prometheus” grew on).

  81. #82 Helioprogenus
    May 18, 2009

    Hmmm, Bacon and Lesbians…It really depends on how committed the lesbians are to the market stability of Canadian bacon in New Hampshire. Sure, you could extrapolate projected regular bacon consumption on a cost per dollar ratio by determining the average American’s annual bacon purchase, and correlate it with a detailed survey of 5000 individuals throughout various areas of New Hampshire. Yet, attempting the same process with Canadian bacon will result in less accurate results, with significant variables complicating the deterministic statistics required for analysis. Perhaps due to nationalistic trends, or self reporting error, the usage of Canadian bacon can be greatly skewed towards the lesser. Incidentally, the participation of the lesbians may wane when faced with discriminatory practices upon administering the surveys.

  82. #83 Sphere Coupler
    May 18, 2009

    Josh…Wow…Thanks!

  83. #84 John Phillips, FCD
    May 18, 2009

    sphere coupler, you don’t need to look for a global flood for such stories to arise. All you need is one or more large scale local floods. When your world is delineated by how far you can walk in an unit time it doesn’t take that large a flood to appear global, especially when it has been passed down through an oral tradition.

    We know from geological evidence (one example in the US: http://www.iafi.org/floods.html ) that we have had some pretty large scale ‘local’ floods near the end of the last ice age, ~11000 years ago. For example, ice ‘dams’ holding back huge quantities of melt water until they finally gave way and in areas where we know that early humans lived. Similar examples to the US ones have been found in Siberia.

  84. #85 'Tis Himself
    May 18, 2009

    Yet, attempting the same process with Canadian bacon will result in less accurate results, with significant variables complicating the deterministic statistics required for analysis.

    It’s my experience that Canadian bacon is quite unresponsive to surveys and other polling techniques.

  85. #86 Carlie
    May 18, 2009

    There will be civil war if they are introduced here ? I have my pitchfork ready.

    I got your back, Emmet. Nested comments are an abomination.

  86. #87 AVSN
    May 18, 2009

    Tis Himself, be happy i come here for amusement. I don’t have any doubt that in a serious setting you’d fall flat.

  87. #88 AVSN
    May 18, 2009

    Tis Himself, be happy i come here for amusement. I don’t have any doubt that in a serious setting you’d fall flat.

  88. #89 AVSN
    May 18, 2009

    oy hating computers today. Sorry ’bout the double post.

  89. #90 Gruesome Rob
    May 18, 2009

    How about at least marking the last read comment? (see fark). Makes it easier to find where you left off at least.

  90. #91 eddie
    May 18, 2009

    There are small villages in britain today in which people feel their whole world was flooded in the past decade.
    It’s another irony to hear flat-earthers insisting that ‘whole world’ = ‘global’.

  91. #92 Sphere Coupler
    May 18, 2009

    Does anyone know what it is called when Hollywood puts out a movie that confronts our greatest fears, which, once on the big screen tends to alleviate the masses greatest fears and then we continue with our daily activities, or is this just an attempt to monopolize our fears for monetary gain and the rest is a bonus?

    Can’t think of any other organization that would do that can you? I mean…play off the fears of the ignorant.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXKZdjSNiNs&feature=related

  92. #93 Wowbagger, OM
    May 18, 2009

    AVSN wrote:

    Tis Himself, be happy i come here for amusement. I don’t have any doubt that in a serious setting you’d fall flat.

    Why don’t you give it a shot and find out? No-one here is very impressed by big talk.

  93. #94 Kaessa
    May 18, 2009

    I would just like to pop in for a moment to say I vote FOR bacon, and AGAINST threaded comments.

    I would also like to kick TypeKey’s OpenID compatibility in the head.

  94. #95 Rev. BigDumbChimp
    May 18, 2009

    OH AWESOME AN INTERNET DICK MEASURING CONTEST!!!

  95. #96 cicely
    May 18, 2009

    AVSN @ 60:

    So predictable. I knew some idiot would start again with the bacon nonesense. It has gotten old. Thought this was supposed to be a science blog.

    *bowing with a flourish*
    Thank you, thank you, thank you.

    I would like to point out that bacon is not incompatible with science. Bacon contains carbon, therefore is organic, which involves chemistry. Bacon comes from pigs (or let us instead say swine, so as to be in agreement with the tone set by the bow, see above), which are animals, which implies biology. I’m sure physics could be worked in there, too, by someone with a better knowledge of physics and a real interest in helping me belabor the point.

    Possibly to ridiculous lengths.

    Meanwhile, d00d, relax. Have some bacon. And I understand there is beer around here, somewhere.

    Elsewhere, on the subject of floods, whenever the question comes up I think….say you have a lightly-populated planet, without rapid, long-range communications, and therefore world-wide reaction bringing people in to a disaster-stricken area with aid (and without the need to feed insatiable world-wide news media). A big flooding event, Katrina, say, or the big Christmas tsunami a few years back, could very easily be taken by locals (especially non-literate people with access to only oral history with its imprecisions and outright errors) as a world devastating flood, with only a few spared by the deity of their choice. The reportage ain’t going to get more accurate and objective as it’s passed orally down the generations. Hitch it to the local religious traditions, and we have the Biblical Flood story, straight from “divine inspiration” and into the mythology-based pseudohistories of the future. Not an original notion, I know, but modern-day events give a reference point to use when the subject comes up; I’ve had no luck at all in pointing out that most places anywhere in the world, near water of any kind, get floods from time to time, and that this is no evidence of a Single Catastrophic Event.

  96. #97 Sven DiMilo
    May 18, 2009

    Meanwhile, d00d, relax.

    Let this be a lesson to us all.

    Thank you, cicely.

  97. #98 Kaessa
    May 18, 2009

    Are there cultures *without* a flood myth? I’ve heard Japan does not have one.

  98. #99 Autumn
    May 18, 2009

    About eighteen months ago I found out that my cholesterol was sky-high, and since then I’ve only rarely eaten bacon, but when I do. . .

    BACON!
    so baconey. . .
    fat-tastic bacon. . .

  99. #100 Helioprogenus
    May 18, 2009

    There are plenty of cultures without a flood myth Kaessa. Many inuits, and other indigenous people of Arctic/subarctic regions of the world do not have a flood myth. The Saami of Finland also come to mind, in addition to most of the Australian aboriginal groups. I’m sure they have plenty of blizzard myths, myths relating to ice, snow, cold, whales, caribou, fish, etc. Flood myths are common in the world because of the potential for devastation where they do occur. Floods damage crops, can cause potential famine and disease, are often unpredictable, especially if you’re hundreds and thousands of kilometers downstream of inclement weather. Further, a decent tsunami can cause myths to develop and propagate through collective stories for hundreds of generations.

  100. #101 Kaessa
    May 18, 2009

    Thanks, Helio!

    I knew I’d heard something like that, but I couldn’t find it with a quick Google search. I appreciate the info.

  101. #102 foole
    May 18, 2009

    Go Penguins!

  102. #103 Rorschach
    May 18, 2009

    Shorter Alan:

    blahblahblah Morrison formation blahblahblah strata blahblah Darwin was wrong about cell molecular biology therefore god exists and you are all wrong blahblahblah natural selection is done by the harsh environment blahblah the bible sez there was a flud,therefore there was a flud blahblah

    Discuss.

  103. #104 Wowbagger, OM
    May 18, 2009

    Has Alan Clarke actually been posting all this time? I couldn’t bring myself to wade back into the threads to see if there was any new inanity to mock and deride.

  104. #105 Nominal Egg
    May 18, 2009

    Discuss.

    Do I have to?
    I’d rather just point and laugh.

    And eat bacon.

  105. #106 Jadehawk
    May 18, 2009

    wowbagger, he posted one long, rambling post about “the age of grasses was moved back 10 million years, therefore god” just before the thread was closed

  106. #107 Kseniya
    May 18, 2009

    Ones definition of a “Catastrophic Event” is highly dependent on whether or not one is a big, tasty, pig.

  107. #108 Jadehawk
    May 19, 2009

    and on a completely unrelated note: Religion explained

  108. #109 Rorschach
    May 19, 2009

    Ones definition of a “Catastrophic Event” is highly dependent on whether or not one is a big, tasty, pig.

    Also: Was the flud catastrophic for Cephalopods?

  109. #110 Anonymous
    May 19, 2009

    #11
    I’m pretty sure the foolishness of that verse is the creation of a lesser ‘light’. The moon may be a mirror, but it doesn’t independently emit any light.

  110. #111 ConstantNeophyte
    May 19, 2009

    Jadehawk,

    That is just awesome. A perfect analogy of religion.

  111. #112 Ragutisr
    May 19, 2009

    Posted by: Jadehawk May 18, 2009 11:56 PM

    wowbagger, he posted one long, rambling post about “the age of grasses was moved back 10 million years, therefore god” just before the thread was closed

    To be fair, it was 2 long, rambling posts: #s 1392 and 1398.

    In addition to the grass thing, he also quote-mined some, made a few ridiculous claims including that Tiktaalik is a forgery modeled on Barney and, taking the gap argument to it’s ludicrous extremes, wants to see 2 celled, 3 celled, 4 celled, 5 celled (etc. etc.) organisms as proof of evolution.

  112. #113 Sphere Coupler
    May 19, 2009

    Personally, I’m attending a catastrophic event next weekend (memorial day holiday) and we will be sacrificing one of our distant cousins (a pig) no really an actual pig (not cousin harry)at a pig roast with lots of libations, old friends, and auto racing on the tube, tho with all the conversation no one actually will know who won.

    And, Autumn | May 18, 2009 10:46 PM
    I too suffer from that plague on humanity,fuck it…it’s a holiday.

    Rorschach | May 19, 2009 12:05 AM
    Also: Was the flud catastrophic for Cephalopods?

    I’ll ask them, there’s bound to be a few show up when the alcohol starts flowing.

    Wish you all could be there, but then again if your not there’s more pork for me!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6rVHbGMwifI

  113. #114 bastion of sass
    May 19, 2009

    ‘Tis wrote:

    The original I have no idea what this thread is about anymore thread is fun. It’s got everything from Josh’s lessons in geology to Alan Clarke’s strange attempts to warp science into the Noachian Flood to links to bad songs of the 1970s.

    The thread with the bad songs of the 70s skirmish was Sandwiched between Jodie Foster and Stephen Pinker.

    That 812 comment thread also has the many many comments on the “deists are atheists”/multilverse/string theory/QM discussion and the knitting/sewing puns.

    Science, religion, bad songs, puns….something for just about everyone. Who could ask for anything more, although I admit I don’t think it discussed either bacon or lesbians.

  114. #115 SteveG
    May 19, 2009

    I never read anything in that thread before, until reading P.Z. post here just now. In scanning through the previous discussion thread, I noticed that in regard to Clarke’s comments about computer programming no one mentioned the field of computer programming called “genetic programming”. A Field Guild to Genetic Programming by Riccardo Poli, William Langdon, and Nicholas McPhee is a good start. There’s also an intere. Note that genetic programming is not the same thing as modeling evolution with artificial life simulations, but it refers to a program itself evolving through selection processes in order to generate a better program in terms of performing specific tasks. These programs are not designed, but are produced by unthinking algorithmic processes mutating and being selected in terms of better performing the desired task.

  115. #116 Alex Deam
    May 19, 2009

    The thread with the bad songs of the 70s skirmish was Sandwiched between Jodie Foster and Stephen Pinker.

    That 812 comment thread also has the many many comments on the “deists are atheists”/multilverse/string theory/QM discussion and the knitting/sewing puns.

    Science, religion, bad songs, puns….something for just about everyone. Who could ask for anything more, although I admit I don’t think it discussed either bacon or lesbians.

    Bloody hell, that Therion guy was rude. I started reading towards the end, and thought, “Why are you guys bullying this physicist? I must defend my own kind!”, but then I read his early “work”, and it all made sense. Plus, for a Grad student blabbering on about the “Strong Anthropic Principle”, he didn’t seem to know what it was.

  116. #117 Alex Deam
    May 19, 2009

    and on a completely unrelated note: Religion explained

    Wait….. so does this mean there’s going to be three prequels? Great, so it’s been decided we don’t have enough trouble combating religion, that we now get ones that contain Jah Jah Binks?

    And who exactly is the George Lucas in this metaphor? Who do we get to blame?

  117. #118 Alex Deam
    May 19, 2009

    Whoops, double post, my bad.

  118. #119 John Morales
    May 19, 2009

    Sphere Coupler, prehistoric great floods.

  119. #120 Kel
    May 19, 2009

    and on a completely unrelated note: Religion explained

    haha, that was quite funny.

  120. #121 JeffreyD
    May 19, 2009

    SC, OM at #52 – Gads, you still remember that little bit of doggerel of mine? Well, thank you kindly, dear lady.

    Ciao bella

  121. #122 SC, OM
    May 19, 2009

    SC, OM at #52 – Gads, you still remember that little bit of doggerel of mine? Well, thank you kindly, dear lady.

    I am sorry that your vision of a god is so weak that he cannot protect his cracker form.

    was one of the funniest things I read during the whole affair (not that “Pax Nabisco” was any slouch). First, “his cracker form” spelled it all out so plainly that you just had to laugh. Second, people were actually making arguments about the goodness of (the) Jesus (cracker) based on his meek acceptance of his fate at the brutal hands of PZ, while PZ was responding to comments about his cuteness or gentleness with “You wouldn’t say that if you were a cracker, man.” Third, it reminded me of the Wondertwins, which I always found fairly amusing as a concept.

    But overall it was pretty powerful.

  122. #123 seksi
    May 19, 2009

    Shorter Alan:

    blahblahblah Morrison formation blahblahblah strata blahblah Darwin was wrong about cell molecular biology therefore god exists and you are all wrong blahblahblah natural selection is done by the harsh environment blahblah the bible sez there was a flud,therefore there was a flud blahblah

    Discuss.

  123. #124 Alex R.
    May 19, 2009

    Don’t you guys think PZ should just get a forum so we don’t need all these open threads?

  124. #125 Facehammer
    May 19, 2009

    #115 SteveG

    A couple of people did mention genetic algorithms (somewhere in the region of #150 – #200, I think), but it’s good evidence so someone should keep trying to bludgeon it into Alan’s thick skull if he shows up.

    Speaking of which, since Alan seems to be one of those “mutation cannot add information” types, I’ve got something to ask him. I did an experiment as part of a practical class last year; we took some plain old E. coli and grew them up on agar plates. These agar plates contained lactose and an indicator. I can’t remember what exactly it was, but the indicator changed colour in response to lactose fermentation, so clearly marked out colonies of E. coli which were unable to use lactose. In other words, it marked out mutants in the genes for utilising lactose. Fair enough, mutations always cause a loss of information.

    Then we took those same bacteria and grew them up again. Once more we looked for mutants – but this time, we were looking for mutants that were able to utilise lactose amongst the bacteria that weren’t. And what do you know, we found them.

    Now this poses you a bit of a problem. It clearly happened, because I and about 30 other people saw it with our very own eyes, so it’s not a mistake and it’s not going to just go away. According to you, information would inevitably have been lost in both mutation events, but in that case how could the twice-mutated gene start working properly again? The only solution I see with any whiff of sanity is that you’re a howling moron who doesn’t even begin to understand what he’s talking about. Fix that before you embarrass yourself further.

  125. #126 JeffreyD
    May 19, 2009

    SC,OM at #123, as always, you are too kind, beautiful brain. I had forgotten about Pax Nabisco, seems a long time ago.

    What are you doing up at such an ungodly hour in the US?

    Cioa, bella

  126. #127 SC, OM
    May 19, 2009

    What are you doing up at such an ungodly hour in the US?

    I’m an ungodly girl. :) Seriously, my sleep patterns are seriously messed up. On the bright side, at least I sometimes overlap with the Australians!

  127. #128 SC, OM
    May 19, 2009

    Bloody hell, that Therion guy was rude.

    And he never presented Dyson’s deism argument!

  128. #129 Alex Deam
    May 19, 2009

    Seriously, my sleep patterns are seriously messed up.

    Snap. I’m in the UK, and it’s currently 11:06am at the moment of typing. I woke at 7pm yesterday, after going to bed some time yesterday morning. I should say that while this isn’t normal behaviour for me on a Monday/Tuesday, it is normal for me not to go to bed on Monday night during term time and pull an all-nighter.

    Extenuating circumstances: I’m a student, and more relevant to my current sleep patterns, I’m ill.

    Better not be swine flu.

  129. #130 JeffreyD
    May 19, 2009

    SC, OM – Well, I am in the UK again for a while, finally got my sleep cycle on Greenwich time. Only problem is that I miss a lot of the hard core troll baiting and cross talk that takes place while I am supposed to be sleeping. Ah well, will be back in summer for the beach, BBQ, boiled peanuts and the blog.

    Ciao bella

  130. #131 Josh
    May 19, 2009

    Sphere Coupler, prehistoric great floods.

    That’s a great list of stuff–thanks. I usually avoid Wikiblabbia completely, but that page looks to be a good starting point. It ignores the fact that there is disagreement in the literature as to whether tsunamis, despite their rather nasty habit of inundating land and burying cows and chickens and such, should properly be classified as floods, but I don’t think that’s a weakness, as there are probably 15 people who actually care about that disagreement…

  131. #132 Alan Clarke
    May 19, 2009

    PZ: Alan Clarke, if you start regurgitating creationist BS here again, I will shut you down.

    I?m trying to be as engaging as possible, but so far, my critique of Richard Dawkins? computer skills remains unchallenged. See my post #325 on Richard Dawkins’ awesome computer skills baffle Information Theorists of intelligent design

  132. #133 Kel
    May 19, 2009

    I?m trying to be as engaging as possible

    You continually lie and misrepresent the science arguments, you are nothing but another liar for Jesus. Are you that deluded that you think of yourself as engaging?

  133. #134 Stephen Wells
    May 19, 2009

    Alan, you’ve failed to critique anything, so nobody can challenge a nonexistent critique.

    FWIW, let’s note that the Weasel code demonstrates one simple thing: variation + selection reaches targets far faster than variation alone; creationist complaints that life can’t have happened “at random” are thus empty.

  134. #135 Alex Deam
    May 19, 2009

    Evolution supposedly has no defined ?target?, but the Musgrave / Dawkins program has the ?target? right at the beginning of the program code. Look at the code for yourself and notice how ?methinks it is a weasle? is defined at the beginning (yellow highlighted) exactly as in the magician analogy.

    Bullshit. Of course evolution has a target, its target is “that which is most adapted to its environment”, and “methinks it is a weasle” is just a metaphor for this.

  135. #136 strange gods before me
    May 19, 2009

    Here’s a pointed poll that will truly affect the future.

    http://www.time.com/time/nation/article/0,8599,1898036,00.html#poll