…and this is a 
Grim tales are emerging from an investigation of the Irish Catholic Church. For years, they've been running reform schools which sound more like hellish work camps, where sadistic priests were given free rein. I found it ironic that some of these workhouses were used to make religious paraphernalia, like rosaries, that were sold to the faithful. I wonder how many hail marys have been said on beads assembled by child-slaves who were raped or beaten as a reward? It does add a rather sinister gloss to Catholic prayers.
A quick summary of the findings:
a history of official cover-ups of pedophiles within the church since the 1930s.
a pattern of beatings, abuse, and molestation in church-run workhouses.
molestation and rape were "endemic" at the boys' workhouses.
ritualized beatings and personal abuse and denigration.
kids were falsely told that their parents or siblings were dead.
a continuing insistence on protecting the child molesters in their ranks.
whistleblowers were accused of being "money-seeking liars".
the Irish government cut a deal with the Catholic church to cap their losses to lawsuits at $175 million…which is only a tiny part of the full cost.
Many of the perpetrators of abuse are now elderly and in retirement…no doubt in homes that are run with more care and concern than they gave. The institutions are dying out as the priests age, and a good thing, too.
Can we stop equating religion and morality now? They never seem to have much to do with one another.
Comments
Posted by: Gruesome Rob | May 21, 2009 11:09 AM
That's not true, they seem to have a lot to do with each other. OK, so it's an inverse relationship, but still.
Posted by: raven | May 21, 2009 11:16 AM
Xian morality is a myth. The STEM investigation has seen atoms and molecules but no xian morality.
This puts an upper limit on the size of xian morality. It is possible it will be seen when they get the Large Hadron Collider up and running again. If it isn't the size of a quark, the whole theory will be in serious trouble.
Posted by: Joe | May 21, 2009 11:18 AM
"sadistic priests were given free rein"
I believe nuns were also involved, they can also be quite vicious.
Posted by: blockhead | May 21, 2009 11:19 AM
why is this not surprising? The sisters of mercy (ugh) and their laundries was a big story a few years ago. It would be totally inept of the catholic church (and its minion society) not to have the priests and brothers abusing and exploiting the boys as well.
Posted by: pikeamus | May 21, 2009 11:20 AM
What did the catholic church offer to the Irish government in return for capping the lawsuits at 175m?
Posted by: firemancarl | May 21, 2009 11:20 AM
And of course, Catholics worldwide will have no problem with this report. In fact if they do have a problem, it's that the church will actually have to pay out to the "money seeking liars".
Posted by: SaraJ
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May 21, 2009 11:22 AM
"But when questioned, their leaders indicated they would continue to protect the identities of clergy accused of abuse — men and women who were never reported to police, and were instead permitted to change jobs and keep harming children."
This just makes me want to scream. What a big "fuck you" to the innocent victims.
Posted by: rtp10
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May 21, 2009 11:22 AM
Gross malfeasance on the part of whomever was in charge.
I agree with you PZ, on equating morality with religiosity. I am sick of hearing that so and so goes to church every week like that somehow makes them a better person than someone who doesn't. Its WEAK.
Posted by: salvatore Patrone | May 21, 2009 11:23 AM
We can make a concious decision to make the everyday definition of religion as:
A belief system that should lead one to a moral, ethical and/or productive life, but also serves as well to conceal the machinations of those who would be immoral, ethical, and destructive.
Posted by: raven | May 21, 2009 11:24 AM
The Irish Catholic church just proves once again that absolute power corrupts .
The RCC will take decades to recover from this according to the American experience.
Most Catholics I know are unenthusiastic and apathetic about their church leadership. Most don't go to Mass very often and some now attend protestant churches. This sect really needs a new Reformation (without the bullets and blood this time) and to get rid of unmarried clergy. No on wants to be a life long virgin any more including the priests and they are having trouble getting ones with a normal IQ and personality.
Posted by: Clownish | May 21, 2009 11:25 AM
What a horrible story, I guess The Great Book of Multiple Choice can justify even things like this.....
Posted by: Richard Harris
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May 21, 2009 11:26 AM
This makes Father Jack look quite benign. What a bunch of creeps.
Posted by: JD | May 21, 2009 11:27 AM
Our Lord knows no boundaries and doesn't believe in condoms.
Posted by: KemaTheAtheist
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May 21, 2009 11:30 AM
I think they should do unto themselves as the do to others and keep the beating and rapings to members of the clergy...
The breif of all the problems that happened was 2,600 pages. 2,600
When there's that much corruption in a corporation, the buildings should be destroyed and the employees buried up to their necks in the town square so that anyone who wishes can come saw at their neck with a wooden saw...
Posted by: Postman | May 21, 2009 11:31 AM
Considering the sorts of things that the loving and moral god condoned, (and, in fact, commanded), be done to the [fill in the blank]ites, I'd say that this is the very morality that religion is based on.
Posted by: NoAstronomer | May 21, 2009 11:32 AM
The RCC in Ireland is in serious danger of making Ian Paisley look like a rational human being.
(For those not familiar with the name Ian Paisley is a veteran politician from *Northern* Ireland best known for his utter hatred of all things catholic, and staunchly opposed to any form of reconciliation with the Republic of Ireland. Mostly due to that countries domination by the RCC.)
Posted by: Glen Davidson
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May 21, 2009 11:34 AM
As a tool for blaming others, they've had a lot to do with each other.
That's what it's often used for now, too--and not just by the religious.
This is kind of an old story, though. I'm guessing that all that's changed is that it's now official.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592
Posted by: raven | May 21, 2009 11:37 AM
It is just plain, flat out WRONG.
Posted by: MrFire | May 21, 2009 11:38 AM
I'm almost desensitized to this shit now.
FWIW, I will say that the priests I knew growing up were generally honest, well-meaning men, who also happened to wear silly skirts and believe silly things. But whatever good they may have been trying to do had nothing that was exclusive to their religious convictions, and in any case can't compare to outrages such as these.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 21, 2009 11:39 AM
The Catholic Church is looking more and more like a Louis CK satire every day. (definitely not work-safe, highly questionable link below)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k
Posted by: Tangent
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May 21, 2009 11:40 AM
I believe this may simply be the case of a literalist sect which misinterpreted where Jesus says, "Suffer little children to come unto me".
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | May 21, 2009 11:40 AM
I wonder if the church offered to pay off in indulgences rather than cash.Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
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May 21, 2009 11:42 AM
Two likely responses:
"Those people weren't true Christians."
"Christians aren't perfect, they're just forgiven."
Posted by: Notagod | May 21, 2009 11:44 AM
The missing link has been found; pretending to eat christian zombie flesh begets sexual abuse of children. It is the christian way.
Posted by: PGPWNIT
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May 21, 2009 11:48 AM
Abuse of authority makes me angry.
Posted by: Chris Davis
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May 21, 2009 11:49 AM
Perhaps this will put paid to the scurrilous suggestion that Catholic priests have no business giving others advice about sex because they lack any experience.
Posted by: No One Of Consequence | May 21, 2009 11:50 AM
Sorry, it was a typo ---
All this time we thought they were selling us immortality, when what they were actually selling was immorallity.
Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | May 21, 2009 11:50 AM
It is the RCC being nostalgic for the Medieval era and treating those in their charge as serfs.
Posted by: Kobra | May 21, 2009 11:52 AM
Absolutely sickening.
Posted by: Matt Heath | May 21, 2009 11:54 AM
"Christians are defined to be those that believe in there hearts" and "If you accept Jesus you saved regardless of your actions" are protestant lines; the Romans won't use them. They'll probably go with the standard crimes-by-bureaucracies line of "Mistakes were made. It couldn't happen now. It's time to draw a line under this".Posted by: Sven DiMilo | May 21, 2009 11:56 AM
These horrible people were No True Irishmen.
Posted by: Guy Incognito | May 21, 2009 11:56 AM
Of course the Catholic League has to get in their two cents. Would the organization that decried the desecration of crackers be similarly appalled by the desecration of humans? Take a guess.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | May 21, 2009 11:58 AM
The order reponsible for most of this mess, the Christian Brothers, was also involved in similar shenanigans in Newfoundland (as came to light about a decade ago). I don't know whether it was a management issue with that particular order, or just that they had a specific mission to run this sort of institution, thus that's why they seem to keep turning up like a bad penny.
Posted by: Newfie
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May 21, 2009 12:01 PM
Birth control and abortion are evil... the church needs its orphans to sodomize in the name of Jaysus.
We went through this at the Mount Cashel Orphanage in the 80s.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hughes_Inquiry
Posted by: Paul | May 21, 2009 12:01 PM
It's actually worse. What they said to excuse the shuffling of priests is (paraphrased) at that time, it was not seen as a criminal act to sexually abuse children. It was only seen as a sin. So obviously it's something that's an internal issue to the church, not a criminal issue.
Posted by: emote_control | May 21, 2009 12:04 PM
@30:
Or rather, draw a curtain over this.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | May 21, 2009 12:06 PM
Donoehue is full of shit. If you consider children taken into care becuase their parents did not follow the societal norms in Ireland at the time as being deliquents, then he might have a point. But given that children were taken away from their parents for things such as one of the parents wanting a divorce I think perhaps he does not.
If the Irish governement had any balls it would treat the RCC as it would anyother organisation that is involved in crime.
Posted by: MW | May 21, 2009 12:07 PM
One woman's tale of forced child labor for church profit in such a place:
http://www.butterfliesandwheels.com/articleprint.php?num=227
No sexual abuse here (thankfully) but the horror of life in an institution like that makes me incredibly sad and the fact it was allowed makes me incredibly angry.
Posted by: Matt Heath | May 21, 2009 12:07 PM
Guy Incognito@32: OMNEG! Some highlights
To recap: Irish priests beat and raped children but this "does not justify this wild and irresponsible claim" that Irish priests beat and raped children.
Posted by: vicnog | May 21, 2009 12:08 PM
To quote Falco Lombardi, "This is horrible...". It really sheds some light into the origin of the idiom "holier than thou"...
Posted by: Holbach
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May 21, 2009 12:13 PM
Those afflicted by the insane pox of religion never seem to pose the absolute and only question when news of this sort is revealed: "Where was my god?" And of course, the insane bullshit reply of "free will" is offered to absolve this horrendous behavior of humans given to them by their imaginary god. Insanity run amuck.
Posted by: Charles | May 21, 2009 12:16 PM
What really burns me is that these orders admit the wrongdoing of their members, and continue to refuse to release the names. That makes them complicit, in my view.
As a disaffected Jew, I have some issues with Judaism, but I like the Jewish concept of forgiveness: if you sin against God, you ask God for forgiveness. If you sin against a person, you must ask them for forgiveness. These criminals should submit to society's justice system, without the protection of the Church, as part of their penitence. Something about render unto Caesar, or some such nonsense.
While religious tends to promote ignorance (not entirely, but tending), I have found no correlation between religion and morality. I know pious jerks, pious nice-people, and nonreligious of both as well. I've observed that it reinforces either way.
Posted by: Newfie
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May 21, 2009 12:19 PM
The ones that teach you to fear God, lest you spend eternity in hell, don't seem to fear God very much, it seems.
Posted by: Thinking | May 21, 2009 12:23 PM
HI All first time poster here. Heres my thoughts on this sorry excuse of a religion.
1) Separate church and state in Ireland, get rid of Pro-catholic ministers in Ireland
2) Annexe all church property and sell it off to the highest bidder to provide a compensation fund.
3) All priests/church workers to be listed on a nationwide database.
4) Press criminal charges against the perps
5) Deny all church requests for funds and rescind any concordats in effect.
failing the above, just deny the church everything.
Posted by: littlejohn | May 21, 2009 12:23 PM
All this makes me wonder if these priests really believe in eternal hellfire. Surely this behavior would qualify them for hell. Of course, no sin counts if they confess and ask forgiveness. Maybe one of their victims should hunt them down and shoot them in the heads - then confess and ask forgiveness. Twenty hail marys. You're forgiven.
Posted by: Knockgoats | May 21, 2009 12:25 PM
If the Irish governement had any balls it would treat the RCC as it would anyother organisation that is involved in crime. - Matt Penfold
Indeed: the Roman Catholic Church is the world's largest and most powerful pedophile ring.
Posted by: Mike in Ontario, NY
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May 21, 2009 12:27 PM
The CBC (Canada) Radio show "As it Happens" that aired last night had an interview with the woman who came first came forward with abuse claims in 1992. The interview is available as a podcast on the As It Happens website.
Posted by: Liam | May 21, 2009 12:30 PM
@31 "These horrible people were No True Irishmen."
What does this comment mean?
Posted by: Jafafa Hots | May 21, 2009 12:36 PM
Newt Gingrich recently converted to Catholicism. Musta seen something he liked about it.
Posted by: KemaTheAtheist
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May 21, 2009 12:38 PM
Exactly the problem. There's a little joke (not very funny considering the truth in it) that illustrates the point...
There once was a child who wanted a bike, so he prayed to God for one. Then he realized that God doesn't work that way, so he stole a bike and then prayed for forgiveness.
It could be said that the same could be applied for murder, rape, beatings, etc...
Posted by: Matt Heath | May 21, 2009 12:39 PM
Speaking of Father Ted can anyone find the clip of him telling Claire Grogan (as more-or-less Sinead O'Connor) more or less the same as that Catholic League press release says? It goes something like "That was all overblown. Say there are [very big number] of priests in the world and [small proportion] of them are paedophiles. That's still only [big number] of paedophiles"
Posted by: Matt Penfold | May 21, 2009 12:40 PM
I think you will find it is a humorous reference to the logical fallacy known as the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. See wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_true_Scotsman
Posted by: natural cynic | May 21, 2009 12:41 PM
There's a song about this kind of abuse - specifically about young women who got pregnant and were sent to The Magdalene Laundries, sung by Joni Mitchell backed up by The Chieftains. In this case, most of the abuse was done by nuns.
Great song, very chilling.
Posted by: Matt Heath | May 21, 2009 12:41 PM
me @51 "more or less" twice in quick succession. I fail writing well.
Posted by: Anne | May 21, 2009 12:43 PM
The movie The Magdalene Sisters dealt with a lot of this: the abuse (physical, sexual, and psychological), the hellish conditions, and so on. Really, really awful. That movie broke my heart.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | May 21, 2009 12:43 PM
Yust yokin', friend.It was meant to be a simultaneous reference to the previous comment's "no true christian" defense and the No True Scotsman meme.
I thought it was pretty funny at the time. No joking matter, of course.
Posted by: Bree | May 21, 2009 12:44 PM
I've yet to meet a truly moral "believer". They are, for the most part, the most immoral humans I have known.
I sometimes wonder if they insist on believing, in the face of evidence and fact, because they know how evil they are and cannot forgive themselves.
They need someone else to do it for them. They make me wish there was a hell.
Posted by: LaTomate | May 21, 2009 12:47 PM
Louis CK sums it up:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VABSoHYQr6k
Posted by: C. M. Baxter | May 21, 2009 12:49 PM
Reading about this yesterday prompted me to dig out my DVD, The Magdalene Sisters, and watch it again. Chilling as the movie is (as well as the interview afterward with the actual victims depicted in the movie), it didn’t go quite far enough in exposing the horror all those children experience, nor the magnitude of their suffering.
The current exposé of the Church’s ongoing corruption reveals that religion in the Western World is not the purveyor of love and virtue it pretends to be, but a slumbering Torquemada, ready to stir awake and seize power during times of social vulnerability.
Posted by: Zeno
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May 21, 2009 12:49 PM
Randall Terry is another recent convert to Catholicism. Neither Terry nor Newt Gingrich are married to their first wives. It must have been an entertaining exercise for the Church authorities to deal with the divorces of their most recent acolytes. Gingrich, for example, is now married to the woman who was his mistress during his second marriage. His third wife is Catholic (and one presumes she's been to confession about that adultery business), so Newt is now in a holy and indissoluble union in the eyes of God and the one, holy, catholic, and apostolic church. Is it high church or high comedy? Probably both. [Link]
Posted by: KemaTheAtheist
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May 21, 2009 12:50 PM
It's refering to a fallacy argument...
If someone is a part of a group that does something aweful, the rest of the group doesn't take responsibility for it at all, and they say something along the lines of "well, he/she wasn't a true because a true wouldn't have done that."
It's a way of absolving your group from blame so they don't look as bad.
Posted by: Molly, NYC | May 21, 2009 12:51 PM
What I found wildly disingenuous is the Christian Brothers' successful suit to redact the names of the guilty.
It wasn't just a few bad apples at one school or another. (1) The abuse was out in the open, at least within the schools. So every faculty member who didn't call the cops was complicit. And those rapists couldn't have gotten away with it if their "brothers" hadn't chosen, as a group, to ignore it. So you had these horrible places, where every adult was in on it to some extent, or relatively good institutions (there must have been some) where people knew that if they pulled this crap, they were toast (similar to the way police precincts can be clean or dirty).
(1) Or maybe it was; the line is A few bad apples spoil the barrel, which may be applicable to what passed for the child-rearing beliefs in these hell-holes.
Posted by: MikeM | May 21, 2009 12:52 PM
I'm sure none of this comes close to cracker desecration, though. Torturning crackers is way, way worse than humiliating and abusing children. I bet the people who bought those rosaries feel much closer to Gawd now.
Seriously, I'm glad I gave up the stupid addiction to the Church back in 1983. One of the best decisions I've ever made in my life.
Posted by: David Wiener
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May 21, 2009 12:52 PM
Liam@48
You obviously are No True Pharyngulite (Pharyngulian? Pharyngolisher?)
This references the No True Scotsman meme, which, in a nutshell, says that people will always look at members of their own group who are bad/different and say, "Yeah, but they're No True [Xian/Atheist/dwarf pygmy]"
Posted by: Matt Heath | May 21, 2009 12:53 PM
No joking matter, of course.
As a great Irishman had it:
Posted by: KemaTheAtheist
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May 21, 2009 12:55 PM
What's really funny is he just came out with a book called "5 Principles to a successful life."
Even if any of it is good advice, I'll spare myself from getting it from someone who's been married 3 (or was it 4?) times, each divorce taking place after he cheated on his current wife. Plus, the divorces happening at absolutely disgusting times... like while his wife was in the hospital with cancer, or over the phone while she was at her mother's birthday party...
Posted by: bigtitch | May 21, 2009 12:59 PM
The Irish Times says it best:
The key to understanding these attitudes is surely to realise that abuse was not a failure of the system. It was the system. Terror was both the point of these institutions and their standard operating procedure. Their function in Irish society was to impose social control, particularly on the poor, by acting as a threat. Without the horror of an institution like Letterfrack, it could not fulfil that function. Within the institutions, terror was systematic and deliberate. It was a methodology handed down through “successive generations of Brothers, priests and nuns”.
There is a nightmarish quality to this systemic malice, reminiscent of authoritarian regimes. We read of children “flogged, kicked . . . scalded, burned and held under water”. We read of deliberate psychological torment inflicted through humiliation, expressions of contempt and the practice of incorrectly telling children that their parents were dead. We read of returned absconders having their heads shaved and of “ritualised” floggings in one institution.
We have to call this kind of abuse by its proper name – torture. We must also call the organised exploitation of unpaid child labour – young girls placed in charge of babies “on a 24-hour basis” or working under conditions of “great suffering” in the rosary bead industry; young boys doing work that gave them no training but made money for the religious orders – by its proper name: slavery. It demands a very painful adjustment of our notions of the nature of the State to accept that it helped to inflict torture and slavery on tens of thousands of children. In the light of the commission’s report, however, we can no longer take comfort in evasions.
Posted by: Brian X | May 21, 2009 1:01 PM
Oddly enough, the reference grammar we used when I took Irish Gaelic in college was written by some of the Christian Brothers.
Now I'm not saying there's any connection, but that book didn't have an ISBN...
Posted by: Molly, NYC | May 21, 2009 1:02 PM
Hmmmm, just reread my comment at #62 and not sure it makes sense without the information that the report does mention institutions. So if a nun was on the faculty of St. Childbeater's during the period in question, what's she going to say? "I didn't hurt any kids"? That's like an ex-guard at Auschwitz saying that he personally didn't light the ovens.
Posted by: Helioprogenus | May 21, 2009 1:03 PM
We can equate religion and morality. It just happens that it's an inverse relationship.
Why is everyone so surprised at this top level church coverup in Ireland? If their cousins in the US partook in such vile behavior, what's to prevent the bastards with the same world view across the pond from doing the same? It's amazing that it's a scandal for a priest to be caught cavorting with a woman on a beach, yet, known pedophiles are just reassigned to continue their damage to unaware children. Catholicism is just screaming for eradication. Hopefully, it's downfall will take Islam, Judaism, and the rest of the Christian garbage equally out. Let's see a world where reason prevails, and illogical beliefs remains only in the sphere of political policy, economic systems, and art appreciation.
Posted by: SVN | May 21, 2009 1:05 PM
Romans 8:33 Who shall lay any thing to the charge of God's elect? It is God that justifieth.
The bible's justification for priestly abuses.
Posted by: Sarah P | May 21, 2009 1:07 PM
According to the CBC show Mike from Ontario references @47, not only was the Church actively aiding abusers by transferring those who were reported, the government was complicit in refusing to investigate despite documented evidence of abuse.
This is what happens when a society fails to be secular. It seemed unquestionable to challenge the church, despite all evidence that the church leaders were severely abusing their authority.
Those poor Irish who lost their childhoods and, in too many cases, their mental and physical health. It sounds like a repeat of the Canadian residential school fiasco. Which wasn't limited to Catholic abusers. And went on for decades.
Posted by: Hurin | May 21, 2009 1:16 PM
Once again say hello to the true face of christianity.
Posted by: Molly, NYC | May 21, 2009 1:16 PM
Something I never did understand: Eventually, these kids grew up (not just in Ireland, but throughout the world) and were no longer under the authority of these people. Why were faculty members not in mortal danger of getting the crap kicked out of them every time they went outside?
Posted by: raven | May 21, 2009 1:16 PM
Randall Terry is a xian terrorist. The feds have been after him for a while. He once tthreatened to hunt down and kill family planning docs and health care workers. Seven were subsequently assassinated and 17 were wounded in enthusiastic but inept attempted murders, and 200 were injured as collateral damage.
I surprised he didn't become a Moslem and move to Afghanistan. A more target rich environment and better weapons.
Posted by: Mike in Ontario, NY
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May 21, 2009 1:23 PM
Bree @ 57:
Agreed.
There are also the self-loathing types who get into religion because it reinforces their own self-hatred. I'm thinking specifically, but not exclusively, of the deeply closeted gays who are so uncomfortable with who they are that they join organized religions that are extremely anti-gay.
Posted by: AJ Milne | May 21, 2009 1:26 PM
Father Ted is such a good reference, too, way I find myself thinking about this...
I mean, it's funny. That always seems to be the pop image of the Irish priest: flawed, maybe more than a bit crooked, but all in mostly harmless, quaint, amusing ways. So he's bit red in the nose, he's all right... Irish version of the good ole' boy, 'neath the cassock, is all. Nice guy, possibly not too bright, well meaning, on and off, anyway... Does the right thing when the chips are down...
The reality just isn't that pretty. But somehow, I still wonder if this is even going to penetrate the thick hide of that old cliche. It's like so much of religion: it's what people want to believe, not what the evidence tells them is true.
And then there's the very intersection here with religion: it doesn't fit that old canard that you need this to make you moral, that this is where fibre comes from. What it looks a lot more like is: calling this organization corrupt, amoral, exploitative, and vicious fails only because we lack stronger adjectives. But is it going to sink in? Or is it still gonna be: well, that wasn't the real religion, on and on...
News flash to those apologists, in anticipation: this is the real religion. This is where it leads, this is how it works, this is pretty much inevitable, and this isn't even news, really. The first commandment of all religions has always been 'thou shalt lie', even if they never quite write it down in those exact words. So what the hell else should we expect?
Posted by: --PatF
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May 21, 2009 1:29 PM
A few months ago I commented on another post about incidents of corporal punishment that happened at a Catholic school I went to in the fifties in Rhode Island. I don't think they rose to the level of brutality that happened in Ireland but I still think of them fifty three years after leaving that school.
I was soon taken to task by someone who told me they didn't happen. (They did.) He also told me that it was not fair to compare Rhode Island to Ireland. In this he was right. Ireland looks a lot worse.
Anyway, I think there is not enough schadenfreude in the world to go around whenever I hear about the troubles of the Catholic Church.
Posted by: Steve | May 21, 2009 1:30 PM
[sarcasm on] In the priests' defense, maybe they did not know what they were doing was illegal? [sarcasm off].
http://www.jsonline.com/features/religion/45191277.html
Astounding stuff.
Posted by: kermit | May 21, 2009 1:30 PM
Paul @35 "It's actually worse. What they said to excuse the shuffling of priests is (paraphrased) at that time, it was not seen as a criminal act to sexually abuse children. It was only seen as a sin. So obviously it's something that's an internal issue to the church, not a criminal issue."
I suppose the Catholic attitude to sex must be similar to the Southern Baptists church I grew up in. If you enjoy it, it's a sin. Jesus died on the cross for you - was *he having fun? But the pain, humiliation, fear, lost childhood, and doubtless life-long mental crippling of the children was irrelevant. It was a sin because the priests enjoyed it. But punishing them isn't as important for these people as protecting the power and dignity of the church.
As for them not knowing it was a crime - this is probably a disingenuous claim, but if not, it's worse. It would mean that they are so used to the church being above the law that they never gave it a thought.
Posted by: Matt Heath | May 21, 2009 1:32 PM
AJ Milne @79: I'm not sure Father Ted was all that soft on the priests. Jack was shown as having been (as a younger man) a pervert who took advantage of girls in his care for sexual kicks.
Posted by: Joe
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May 21, 2009 1:37 PM
@#32 - On that Bill Donahue link -that is just vile and disgusting. That piece of shit should be forced to read all 2600 pages of abuse inflicted by his pet church. I thought that the Catholic League was obnoxious and stupid even when I was a Catholic, and now it's just revolting.
Just more and more evidence that I made the right decision. Like most Catholics, I don't think that there were any problems in my parish. But the fact that the upper leadership would protect these criminals in every case, is simply reprehensible.
I've never been more glad to be not catholic.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 21, 2009 1:42 PM
The Irish Times says it best:
The key to understanding these attitudes is surely to realise that abuse was not a failure of the system. It was the system.
Those two sentences from the Times are so simple and yet so perfectly describe the situation.
Posted by: Ty | May 21, 2009 1:42 PM
The Catholic apologists who will generate 1000 post comment sections in defense of a cracker are strangely silent when it comes to discussing their priests buggery.
Wonder why that is.
Posted by: Drosera
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May 21, 2009 1:46 PM
One of the people who knew about and tried to cover up these disgusting crimes, cardinal O'Connor, recently called us atheists "not fully human". And his successor, Vincent Nichols, proves to be an apple from the same poisonous tree by saying that it took "courage" for those clergy involved in child sex abuse to confront their actions. I really wonder just who is not fully human here.
Posted by: Mike in Ontario, NY
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May 21, 2009 1:50 PM
I'd like to start up my own legal defense fund, so I can afford to travel to Bill Donohue and kick the living shit out of him, just to see if he finds it "abusive" or not. I'd be willing to spend a month in the pokey and pay a fine for the privilege of showing him just a small dose of the same mercy shown to the victims of clergy abuse. Castration might be on the table, too, if I get enough donors.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | May 21, 2009 1:53 PM
The Catholic apologists who will generate 1000 post comment sections in defense of a cracker are strangely silent when it comes to discussing their priests buggery.
Oh, Pilty will be back, blaming it on gays and the media (just like the last two popes).
Posted by: Darren S. A. George | May 21, 2009 1:54 PM
Now I've got the "I'm a Roman Catholic" song from Monty Python running through my head, only with slightly different lyrics.
Not ones that I can reprint here.
Posted by: Matt Heath | May 21, 2009 1:58 PM
In some official statements I believe they picked out Jews in the media for particular attention: the scapegoat that just keeps on giving.Posted by: Sven DiMilo | May 21, 2009 2:00 PM
? Of course you can. I'll pre-clutch my pearls in anticipation.Posted by: Evinfuilt | May 21, 2009 2:01 PM
Peace damn it. The more a religion uses that word, the more you know its a key word for taking advantage of the weak. Love to a religion is love of your money, your assets. That's all the church is about now, Peace and Love... Abuse and Thievery.
At least I'll give these priests and the church 1 thumbs up, they seemed to have read the Bible, their just as immoral and abusive as it tells them to be.
Posted by: Watchman | May 21, 2009 2:01 PM
Right. And he'll show how abuses also happen in secular situations, which will imply that we shouldn't be critical of the Catholic institutions. I believe he came up with ONE report of a gay couple who'd used their status as foster parents to create opportunities for sexual predation.
Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | May 21, 2009 2:03 PM
Here is a sample quote from Donohue:
Not nice, to be sure, but hardly draconian, especially given the time line: fully 82 percent of the incidents took place before 1970. As the New York Times noted, “many of them [are] now more than 70 years old.”
Dismissing the older cases because they happened long ago and the victims are now old hardly shows any empathy. And what of the 18 percent of reported abuses that happened in the last decade plus of the report. Nice way to try to dismiss of the more recent cases and the fact that the sadists could still be lurking in various spots in Ireland.
William Donohue, more concerned with all of the (imaginary) anal sex in mainstream Hollywood movies (placed there by secular Jews) then in the real miseries caused by people who practices his faith.
Posted by: anik | May 21, 2009 2:10 PM
although the systemic abuse of children is a huge problem, let's not overlook how this was able to occur over so many years (and if you think this only started in the 1930s you haven't read enough about it yet..). A theocracy run by the church with political power completely subject to the church hierarchy and a complaisant judiciary with no interest in defending the rights of individuals. This is the sort of thing that happens in a theocracy with no accountability to anything other than itself. If ever there was a better case for complete separation of church and state I don't know of it. All of us should be warned by this.
Posted by: Matt Heath | May 21, 2009 2:11 PM
Watchman @95 Indeed, I expect a veritable will-you-condemn-athon of whataboutery. It's about the only move available for people wanting to stand by the RCC in response to this.
Posted by: Holbach
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May 21, 2009 2:12 PM
Mike in Ontario, NY @ 88
My sentiments exactly on kicking the shit out of that religious moron, but also sneering at him as he is lying there in a pulp, "Where is your god now, moron?" "What, no god? Here, let me be your god for now and give you a second pummelling to keep the devil out of you. Here comes my intelligently designed fist to put the fear of reality into you, you religious pile of scum shit." Do you think he will be in the mood for praying?
Posted by: AJ Milne | May 21, 2009 2:22 PM
Re #83: fair 'nough. Truth is, I guess, I didn't watch it much, didn't pay that much attention when I did... that was just sorta my rough impression...
Kinda nice to think they did get a bit more real, apparently.
Back to the matter itself, as much as I can comment I hardly see this as news, exactly, I will still confess to being more than a bit staggered by the sheer scale of it...
Abuse on an industrial scale. Over several generations... How very organized. How very dedicated...
How... impressive. Me, I can't even stick to a proper schedule of self-abuse. Or not well enough to keep my GP happy.
Seriously, there is something just boggling in this, still. I keep thinking, a bit like that question about how these people could safely go out in public, were there no brakes on this train? Didn't anyone look at this stuff and say, okay, this can't be right? I mean, I do get it, I guess, on an intellectual level--there's psychology, sociology around this, groupthink, a sort of conditioning thing going on--this nasty cocktail of self-justifying practices, denial, and self-interest--again, all not exatly news...
But still: wow.
Posted by: PixelFish | May 21, 2009 2:35 PM
The Magdalene laundries are a pretty heinous example of this sort of thing, as other folks have already noted. Not unique to the Catholic church, mind you. A lot of religious reform schools employ some pretty shady tactics.
Posted by: Black Jack Shellac | May 21, 2009 2:42 PM
Oh man, Bill Bennett's head just exploded. Now they're going to do you with blogicular homicide.
Posted by: Mike in Ontario, NY
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May 21, 2009 2:44 PM
Holbach, you're my kind of person. If it weren't for harsh revenge fantasies, what would I have to sustain my sanity when I hear about these things?
Want to start up a "Fight Club" -like organization, except that not all participants are knowing, willing participants? LOL! The Phelpseses would be high on my list.
Posted by: Hockey Bob | May 21, 2009 2:45 PM
Any chance that you might want to take up a collection of those rosaries, PZ? You can have mine from my old catholic school days, and do whatever you wish to it, as it is now only a source of revulsion to me.
Posted by: Holbach
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May 21, 2009 3:12 PM
Mike in Ontario, NY @ 102
Ah yes, revenge is a word I fantasize over many times, both in the corporeal sense and the nonsensical, as it is a fitting justice to those who deliberately cause harm to others, both physically and mentally. Yes, the Phelpseses will be high on the honor roll of retribution along with so many more we are indignant about. To banana man Ray Comfort I would afford the joy of force feeding bananas till he burst in a paroxysm of banana corpuscular pudding, then bury him in a banana shaped coffin, and then a hole in the ground shaped like a banana. And his headstone will read: "His life was shaped by the banana, but he could not get his hand around that life. Worms like bananas too."
To others of the severe religious affliction I will cut off a arm or leg and then have them entreat their imaginary god to perform the wonders of regeneration. My fantasies know no bounds of invention or retribution. After all, the loonies claim that their god is a vengeful god and all I'm doing is doing what it is incapable of doing, as reality trumps nonsense all the time.
Posted by: sammywol
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May 21, 2009 3:18 PM
Father Ted they may not have been. Father Jack they were. Linehan and co. were well aware of the darkness behind their bumbling parodies. The scandal of these institutions has been a well known fact for decades now in Ireland but what has taken people aback so much with the publication of this mass of data are not the facts of it, miserable and foul though those facts are as much of the scale of it and the systematic, State colluding nature of it. And they are still at it! Covering up! Would you believe one of the conditions of the production of this report was immunity from prosecution of any of the perpetrators and all of the still living perpetrators are protected by pseudonyms within the report itself. There are mass graves at these places for fucks sake! and 27,000 files on children conveniently 'missing' from the Department of Education records.
Bob Geldof had it right:
Banana Republic
Septic Isle...
everywhere you go yeah, everywhere you see
The black and blue uniforms
Police and priests
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | May 21, 2009 3:24 PM
TORTE STATT WORTE
Posted by: Martian Buddy | May 21, 2009 3:27 PM
“The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and wonderful results” (James 5:16)... unless you're an orphan praying for deliverance from sadistic priests and nuns, in which case God has to see a man about a crocoduck.Posted by: Connor | May 21, 2009 3:30 PM
anik @ #96
"let's not overlook how this was able to occur over so many years (and if you think this only started in the 1930s you haven't read enough about it yet..)"
When I heard about this report on the news today one of the first things that occured to me was that going back to the 1930s means they've gone back as far as they can via living peoples memory. It doesn't mean it started there. Just that peoples memories are the only record of it (somehow I don't think the Catholic church has been keeping detailed records). So. Anyone want to place bets on how many hundreds of years this has been going on? And no, I'm not joking.
I used to think the Catholic church was seriously immoral because of its 'no condoms' policy. How many millions will/have died because of that? And now this. Could there possibly be any institution more evil? (to use a rather religiously loaded word)
And yet they still have huge influence and power around the globe. It makes me dispair for humankind.
Posted by: Prof. Henry Armitage
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May 21, 2009 3:35 PM
Down-playing child abuse? Stay classy, Bill Donohue.
I need to take a shower after reading that Catholic League press release.
Posted by: dean | May 21, 2009 3:54 PM
@ #51 - good catch about Rembert Weakland, the ass-hat archbishop of Milwaukee. He has a memoir coming out: he says (of the abuse he oversaw)
""We all considered sexual abuse of minors as a moral evil, but had no understanding of its criminal nature," Weakland says in the book, "A Pilgrim in a Pilgrim Church," due out in June."
Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | May 21, 2009 3:58 PM
"We all considered sexual abuse of minors as a moral evil, but had no understanding of its criminal nature,"
You mean, he never heard of rape? I almost do not know what to say. All I can think is this; do I want to use a sharp instrument or a blunt instrument?
Posted by: dean | May 21, 2009 4:18 PM
A club, Janine, big wooden club. He (and the guys he protected) should be beaten like (pardon the impolite comment) baby seals.
My neighbor mentioned that a more honest comment in the memoir would have been this:
"We all considered sexual abuse of minors as a moral evil, BUT IT WAS FUN, AND WE KNEW WE'D BE PROTECTED, SO WE DIDN'T DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT."
Posted by: MickyW | May 21, 2009 4:25 PM
I was reading the various articles in today's Irish Independent about all this. It was over lunch time and it made me physically ill, unable to eat.
I hate to think how the victims and their families must be feeling now. And especially after the additional slap in the face of the government's secret deal in 2002 which ensures that religious congregations will be indemnified from the consequences of abuse claims. This deal exposes the Irish taxpayer to, potentially, over a billion euros in claims. Well as an Irish taxpayer I'll happily help pay these claims, but I'd love to see the RCC stripped of all its Irish assets in return. That would be real justice, much more so than some pathetic monument with an apology inscribed on it.
Posted by: Connor | May 21, 2009 4:26 PM
"We all considered sexual abuse of minors as a moral evil, but had no understanding of its criminal nature,"
I've heard a few of them saying similar things in the last few days (see Vincent Nichols as mentioned above) and I'm not sure if there's a certain (huge) amount of cognitive dissonance going on in the Catholic church in general or (*shudders*) they're trying to spin the story. Ugh.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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May 21, 2009 4:34 PM
The mind boggles. The stomach churns.
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | May 21, 2009 4:50 PM
ENOUGH! I cannot sit by and see this slander continue. I must speak out for the Christian Brothers (for who else will?). I was a product of their tender care, indeed they made me the man I am today. When my mother (Mama Batzrubble) died giving birth to me, and my father (Papa Batzrubble) was executed as a serial killer, it was only thanks to the tender mercies of the Christian Brothers that I had a roof over my head, a bed to weep in, and a kind hand to fondle me to sleep at night. They taught me many things--not to linger in the shower, the warm and pleasurable glow of one's buttocks after a Christian flogging, the heartfelt joy of seeing some other child suffering instead of oneself. How would I have survived my present incarceration without their wise instruction I wonder? I am certain the demands on my bottom of my cell mate, Floyd Rubber, would have severely traumatised me had the Brothers not already taught me what it felt like to be entered as regularly as the Channel Tunnel. The brothers trained me in the ways of Christian Love. Thanks to them I have no problem reconciling God our Loving Father with the Holy Smiting Bastard of the Old Testament. We are all God's children, and we feel his love through his priests.
Thank you, O My Brothers
S. Batzrubble
Posted by: David Harper | May 21, 2009 5:09 PM
Vincent Nichols, the new Archbiship of Westminster, who is the leading RC clergyman in England and Wales, is reported in today's Guardian as saying that the paedophile priests who admitted their guilt were courageous for doing so:
All of the good that they also did?
These priests took advantage of their positions of religious power to beat and rape children. What else do we need to know about these monsters?
Posted by: Meursault Lives! | May 21, 2009 5:11 PM
"There once was a child who wanted a bike, so he prayed to God for one. Then he realized that God doesn't work that way, so he stole a bike and then prayed for forgiveness."
That's fantastic! I've never heard that one before. Lulz
Posted by: Happy Tentacles
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May 21, 2009 5:16 PM
I suppose they believe that if they make a deathbed confession, then they'll get absolved of all their sins and will be fast-tracked to Heaven on a metaphysical Get-Out-Of-Jail-Free-Card, no matter what grotesque obscenities they have committed against the most helpless of human beings.
Posted by: woodsong | May 21, 2009 5:24 PM
I haven't yet read all of the comments, but thought I'd put my 2 cents in...
While I haven't seen The Magdalene Sisters, another movie that presents Church-sponsored child abuse well is The Boys of St. Vincent. Highly disturbing, especially the end of the first part, when the molesting priests are removed and a new lot replace them, with the implication that the new bunch are just as bad as the old were.
The Church also sponsored abusive boarding schools in the US for Native American children. And I have a good friend who grew up in India, raised Hindu but attending Catholic school, who showed me a scar on his arm where a pencil lead is still embedded as a result of a priest's (or perhaps nun, I'm not sure which) punishment. Similar things happened there, too. I'd bet that most Catholic schools, worldwide, have similar stories.
I'm just glad that my parents wised up and stopped going to the Catholic church when they did. Peer abuse in the public schools was bad enough, but didn't have the same betrayal impact on me as abuse by authority figures that the parental units told them to trust had on several of my friends.
Posted by: Seraphiel | May 21, 2009 5:46 PM
Does the report explore the role of the church higher-ups in helping to perpetuate this hideous culture of abuse?
Nothing in that institution could be so widespread, and last for so long, without the Vatican being involved in the cover-up at some level.
What will it take before the civilized governments of the world confiscate the church's bank accounts to compensate for their crimes against humanity?
Posted by: Richard Smith | May 21, 2009 5:49 PM
One thing (of many) that I don't understand: Weakland tries to absolve himself by stating, "We all considered sexual abuse of minors as a moral evil, but had no understanding of its criminal nature." Yet the church is all about fighting against moral evil, and always pressuring that criminal law reflect Christian "morality". In other words, if it's morally evil, wouldn't they be all for it to be considered a criminal act? And isn't this the same Catholocism that is all up in arms that homosexuality isn't a crime even though it's against their morality? Does that mean that it's okay for Catholics to engage in homosexuality because it's a moral evil, but not a crime?
So, I guess by Weakland's reasoning, something that's morally evil and done by Catholic leaders shouldn't be criminal (but still shouldn't be done by anybody else because it is, after all, morally evil - DUH!), while something that's morally evil and not done by Catholic leaders (or at least, not enough that have been made public) should be criminal (but said Catholic leaders should likely get some leeway because of their social position and all the pressures they're under day after day...). Nice.
Posted by: Prof. Henry Armitage
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May 21, 2009 6:10 PM
The other day, Peter Heck conflated atheism with secularism. Today, the new Archbishop of Westminster does the same thing!
WFT? They aren't difficult concepts to get one head around.
Admittedly, the Archbishop has already praised the courage of the Irish Catholic child-abusers, so I probably shouldn't be too surprised.
Posted by: Kel | May 21, 2009 6:10 PM
Sure they do, they just go about it by demonstrating what is not moral so you can do the opposite. This is the perfect example of immorality as opposed to amorality.Posted by: Paul | May 21, 2009 6:14 PM
It might be instructive to recall that rape is deeply rooted as a property crime. Those kids were effectively the property of the clergy. Compare with slavery in the Bible. Sure, you're supposed to treat your slaves well, but Jesus et. all still considered slaves property of their master. How is it a property crime if it's your property?
It sickens me that some people will buy that excuse.
Posted by: tassie Devil | May 21, 2009 6:35 PM
The worst moment I had when reading this document was the factual statement that 'children forced to participate in the abuse of their siblings were particularly traumatised'.
I thought I at least had some idea of what went on in these places - I now realise that there acually weren't any limits on what these bastards were capable of.
Plus the fact that almost all the 'schools' were adequately funded, yet the children were starved and frozen because of lack of adequate clothing. And you have to remember - these places were paid for by the government yet were also the recipients of significant sums of money from their communities. After all, most of us over 40 will remember donating money and going to fundraisers for children's homes.
I know it's not news that the catholic church got rich on the backs of starving children, but it's a timely reminder that they are still doing it.
I note that in all the suggestions at the end of this report, the obvious one - getting religion out of schools and children's homes - isn't mentioned, even obliquely.
Posted by: Fred the Hun
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May 21, 2009 6:49 PM
Interesting people they have in Ireland
Posted by: Michael | May 21, 2009 7:33 PM
PZ...you should see what your pal Donahue has to say about it.
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1616
Posted by: Michael | May 21, 2009 7:36 PM
PZ...you should see what your pal Donahue has to say about it.
http://www.catholicleague.org/release.php?id=1616
Posted by: Anonymous | May 21, 2009 7:53 PM
The church can't lose more than $175k in a lawsuit? Ideal place to orchestrate a giant fraud from, in my opinion.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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May 21, 2009 7:55 PM
Seraphiel #122
The Vatican was involved. Pope Benny, then Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the
InquisitionCongregation for the Doctrine of the Faith obstructed civil investigation of pedophila.Posted by: Mrs Tilton
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May 21, 2009 7:58 PM
Richard @123,
Weakland tries to absolve himself by stating, "We all considered sexual abuse of minors as a moral evil, but had no understanding of its criminal nature."
I haven't read the context that quotation comes from, but I'm not certain Weakland is trying to absolve himself. Quite possibly that is a statement of self-criticism, or rather, criticism of the institution he worked for (from which he does not, however, attempt to distance himself). A friendlier reading would be that he is chastising himself and his colleagues in the hierarchy for thinking about these acts as mere moral failings -- the sort of the thing his church imagines it is in the business of correcting and hence appropriate for "in-house" treatment -- and failing to face the fact that, whatever about moral failings, they were crimes and hence the appropriate province of the police and prosecutorss. What they all told themseves was the "pastoral approach", in other words, was mere self-serving arrogance.
And if that is what he meant, I think we'd all agree with him.
Weakland is a simpering old fool, but by RC standards he is far from the worst. He fought an (ultimately unsuccessful) rear-guard action against the reactionary church leadership Wojtyla imposed; and the mainstream Roman establishment were smirking behind their maniples when he was embarrassed by revelations that he had given church money to his (male) sex partner. Unlike so many of his brethren of the cloth, however, Weakland at least went in for consenting adults.
Posted by: C. M. Baxter | May 21, 2009 8:14 PM
Michael @ #129-
You are so transparent. It’s obvious you’re trying to foment another shit storm between PZ and Donahue. Well then…I’ll bring the popcorn!
Posted by: Anton Mates | May 21, 2009 8:20 PM
That's adorable. Apparently these things took place in the distant era of the pre-1970s, when mankind had not yet developed the concept of "ethics."
So next time someone claims that Stalin demonstrates the evils of atheism, we don't even have to refute it--we can just say, "No, see, Stalin's from the old days. They didn't know you shouldn't starve millions of people to death back then."
Posted by: bobxxxx | May 21, 2009 8:29 PM
Can we stop equating religion and morality now?
I've been equating religion and immorality for a long time. What could be more immoral than lying to children? Even the most moderate religious person does this every day.
Posted by: Emmet, OM
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May 21, 2009 8:50 PM
The cost to the Irish taxpayer of the Residential Institutions Redress Board, established to compensate victims, has so far been €1.1 bn (~$1.53bn) and will ultimately cost ~€1.35bn. The average payment is €64,000. The dirty deal (IMO, a disgusting betrayal of the victims and the taxpayer) capping the total liability of religious institutions at €128m, was signed by former Minister for Education Michael Woods, without cabinet approval, on his last day in office in 2002. Woods denies rumours that he is a member of Opus Dei.
Posted by: BrianC | May 21, 2009 9:30 PM
I attended a Christian Brothers school in Ireland for six years. Fortunately by the time I enrolled the last of the Brothers to run the place was being installed in the cemetary at the back of the school (yes, creepy). Only now do I realise how lucky I was.
Posted by: sa54d@earthlink.net | May 21, 2009 10:09 PM
@ MickyW | May 21, 2009 4:25 PM
The Catholic Church will continue to hose you only as long as you let it. If (hypothetically) the Irish stand up to the Church by voting in secular-minded candidates, then they're wallets will be richer for it. Otherwise, the Church will do this, or something very similar, again.
Certain personality types feel drawn to jobs that give them authority because they like having power over other people. Without some sort of combination on transparency and accountability abuse will always, always, always follow. (Very much like Heine's prophetic "Where they burn books, soon after they will burn people.") If they object to inspections of the facilities they run or the services they perform then one should ask what they are hiding (especially after these documented revelations). Sheesh, even P.O.W.s have visits from the Red Cross now and then.
Posted by: Cowcakes | May 21, 2009 10:29 PM
These would have to be some of the worst collections of sick fucks that have ever existed. The organisations names and the members names should be recoded and held to account with their contemporaries, Hitler and his nazi cronies, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, The Nazi Pope, Stalin, Japanese bio weapon researchers, and the list goes on and on.
Posted by: Cowcakes | May 21, 2009 10:33 PM
These would have to be some of the worst collections of sick fucks that have ever existed. The organisations names and the members names should be recoded and held to account with their contemporaries, Hitler and his nazi cronies, Pol Pot, Idi Amin, The Nazi Pope, Stalin, Japanese bio weapon researchers, and the list goes on and on.
Posted by: Eamon | May 21, 2009 11:51 PM
Molly @ 76
Why were faculty members not in mortal danger of getting the crap kicked out of them every time they went outside?
I'd say there were two things working against that: fear of the abuser and the untouchable nature of the Catholic Church and it's people in Irish Society (North and South).
I'll post a little about that later if I can cope with it.
Posted by: Eamon | May 21, 2009 11:54 PM
Molly @ 76
Why were faculty members not in mortal danger of getting the crap kicked out of them every time they went outside?
I'd say there were two things working against that: fear of the abuser and the untouchable nature of the Catholic Church and it's people in Irish Society (North and South).
I'll post a little about that later if I can cope with it.
Posted by: Anonymous | May 22, 2009 2:14 AM
@Molly #76:
Why do you assume the victims would be vicious thugs? They may also be too scared because of the horrible way they were treated. Just look at unwanted dogs - many are such adorable animals but because of bad treatment by previous owners they remain paranoid and scared of just about everyone.
Posted by: Joe Cracker
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May 22, 2009 2:28 AM
Apparently ... the church thinks that being an atheist is more evil than abusing children:
http://richarddawkins.net/article,3876,Cardinal-Cormac-Atheism-the-greatest-of-evils,Ruth-Gledhill---TIMESONLINE
Man ... these Catholics have some real issues ... and weird morals to accompany them.
Posted by: TCs | May 22, 2009 4:08 AM
Catholics are not true christians! The pope is not a christian at all!
Posted by: Sigmund | May 22, 2009 4:43 AM
I grew up in Ireland, going to both 'Sisters of Mercy' and 'Christian Brothers' schools during the 1970s. My mother, who came from a small rural town, actually attended one of those Magdelene schools, but as a day student rather than one of the incarcerated inmates. She always had a rather haunted look whenever she recalled those days and told us how the nuns treated the full time girls as nothing more than worthless slaves.
As for myself I was certainly beaten by the nuns and christian brothers while at primary school, as was probably every other child - it was simply the way things were done in those days. The brothers had a special tool just for administering beatings, called 'the leather' - a foot long implement made of several layers of leather glued together to make a semi rigid rod. When I think of it now it sounds like a rather phallic-like object and I suspect that's pretty close to the freudian mark. I was a goody-two-shoes throughout my school years yet even I got quite a few belts of 'the leather'. Mind you, as objects of punishment went, 'the leather' wasn't that bad. Its amazing how skillful some nuns can be with a steel ruler. To hell with waterboarding, 30 seconds of Sister Assumpta and her ruler and I'd be giving out the GPS coordinates of Osama Bin Laden.
On the point of the Irish response to this situation I am disappointed but far from shocked by the collusion of the Irish public in this cover-up. Their taxes are going to pay for almost all the compensation in this matter, nobody is going to be prosecuted for the abuse and yet there's hardly a whimper. It's no use saying the catholic church hierarchy are the problem in this case when its clear that the day to day members of the church in Ireland are enabling the abuse by unquestioningly paying the costs.
THEY, as much as the church itself, should be held to blame.
Posted by: Flea | May 22, 2009 4:47 AM
"Can we stop equating religion and morality now? They never seem to have much to do with one another."
Well: there IS a direct relation between morality and religion as this report clearly demonstrates.
Posted by: Rorschach
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May 22, 2009 5:02 AM
The short version of that report is 2600 pages.
That's not the doing of individual deviates,but organized,tolerated,protected rape and pedophilia on a large scale.
Fail to see what keeps the RCC from being prosecuted like,say,a terrorist organisation.
Posted by: Kel | May 22, 2009 5:14 AM
What a fucking heartless fucker!Posted by: Rorschach
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May 22, 2009 5:31 AM
Interesting,how in that post Donahue reckons "voyeurism","kissing" and "fondling" are small change, because they're not rape.
Abuse of children,in whichever way,shape or form, from a position of power,does not seem to be something he is overly concerned with.
Fucker indeed.
Posted by: Kel | May 22, 2009 5:39 AM
Trivialising the abuse suffered my thousands in order to protect the image of an organisation that has systematically covered up such abuses, you really can't get much lower than that without doing the crime yourself. Donohue is scum, though he's shown himself to be scum plenty of times before this.
Scum organisations for scum people, Pilty must be so proud!
Posted by: Michael Gray | May 22, 2009 6:12 AM
And this comes as a "shock" how, exactly?
Churches are established as method of parasitically obtaining the privilege of committing criminal acts against the less powerful.
The churches were established to explicitly allow an elite to commit, without complete impunity:
* Paedophilia
* Physical & mental abuse
* Molestation & Rape
* Murder
* Child slavery
* Fraud
* Torture
* Genocide
(The above list of obscentities is by no means exhaustive)
So whence the surprise that criminal organisations that were explicitly established to commit these crimes, actually do so?
Posted by: melior | May 22, 2009 6:28 AM
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
Posted by: melior | May 22, 2009 6:32 AM
All in all it's just another brick in the wall.
Posted by: Ryan | May 22, 2009 6:43 AM
If you take religion out of this story - say this was a teachers organization - would there be debate about this? Would the government intervene on the side of the abusers?
Would the people responsible get amnesty?
Would they be 'named and shamed?
Hell no - the bastards would be in jail enjoying a nightly romp with their new best friend Bubba. Therein lies the problem, they'll get away with this because of religion.
Bastards - almost makes me wish there was a hell reserved for them.
Posted by: stoat100 | May 22, 2009 7:03 AM
Sorry to spoil the party, but I just checked a Catholic forum and apparently all 5 volumes of the report - all 2,600 pages - are entirely based on information from money-grabbing liars. Well, that's that settled.
Posted by: greg | May 22, 2009 7:04 AM
The silver lining in this cloud is that this will hopefully be another nail in the church's coffin in Ireland, which was, in recent memory, the most catholic country in the world.
Posted by: ConcernedJoe | May 22, 2009 7:06 AM
In any authoritarian hierarchical system "shit flows down"
Abused become abusers; frustrated become frustrators; the powerless seek to control the even less powerful.
Religions (especially traditional major sects) are very dangerous because:
* they are still deferentially treated as societal institutions (throwback to more ancient social constructs),
* they have well organized effective indoctrination systems
* they can operate on our most base instincts (you do not have to be smart, knowledgeable, thinking at all to be stellar religious and dedicated to the faith)
The formula is basically toxic: hierarchical structures justified by and operating under non-falsifiable, unchallengable, self proclaimed omnipotent reasons / authority. Very attractive to the most RWA of us.
This pollution created by 1000's of years of ignorance and fear will take many modern years to clean up I am afraid.
Posted by: Dancaban | May 22, 2009 7:09 AM
The fact the Irish Government has put a cap on claims makes them accessories after the fact.
Posted by: strangebrew | May 22, 2009 7:21 AM
Catholic hierarchy cannot help being liars and con artists...tis what they do!
Donahue is doing what any good catolik bastard son would do...deny... lie...playdown ...then pretend it was gods will...the first sentence belies the tone...
"More than 30,000 children, most of them delinquents"
Ahh so to put good catolik sensibilities in a fluffy place...these kids were delinquents...there you have it..this scum deserved a firm hand which others have construed as abuse and systematic torture when it was no such thing....'correction for jeebus ...that's the ticket!
These folk are just evil and vile...they are not human...they are just slime!
Sounds like a holocaust denier...and there are plenty of in the catolik delusion!
Posted by: dean | May 22, 2009 7:29 AM
Mrs. Tilton, you have Weakland about as wrong as you could get him. He too covered up for abusive priests, and lied multiple times about it. The "uncovering" of the $450,000 he had paid out to his (victim, partner, depending on which of them you believe) came after he had denied involvement in any payments. He has ignored the victims in his region, and the rest of the article that quote came from speaks of the fury and hatred they feel.
Weakland is far from simply a pawn in the grand game: he is scum of the worst kind, and does not deserve any sympathy. Is his comment an attempt to weasel out of responsibility? Certainly - the man has no shame or integrity.
Posted by: dean | May 22, 2009 7:36 AM
Donahue has a letter in today's (May 22) on-line New York Times. If there is anyone posting here who still believes he has a smidgeon of integrity, read this and have your world-view shattered.
"The news article about the Irish clergy abuse says “girls were routinely sexually abused,” yet the report explicitly says on Page 11 that “in general, girls’ schools were not as physically harsh as boys’ schools and there was no persistent problem of sexual abuse.”
More important, the report labels four types of abuse: physical, sexual, neglect and emotional. This includes things like “kissing,” “inappropriate sexual talk,” “being kicked,” “inadequate heating,” “lack of attachment and affection” and so on; regarding sexual abuse, the most common form was fondling, not rape.
To conflate serious abuse with punitive measures that were not uncommon at the time (82 percent of the incidents took place before 1970) is manifestly unfair.
William A. Donohue
President, Catholic League
for Religious and Civil Rights
New York, May 21, 2009"
Posted by: Sigmund | May 22, 2009 8:26 AM
"To conflate serious abuse with punitive measures that were not uncommon at the time (82 percent of the incidents took place before 1970) is manifestly unfair."
I agree.
Which is exactly the reason Donohues argument falls apart since that is exactly what he tries to do.
I certainly don't regard a malevolent nun with a steel ruler in the same way as I would regard a priest, christian brother or lay person who has raped children. I think the nun and the latter abusers should be treated differently. I certainly don't think rapists should remain anonymous figures that face no consequence for their actions.
Posted by: KI | May 22, 2009 8:58 AM
I can't take this any more.
Burn every fucking church to the ground.
Take every priest, preacher, imam, guru, fakir, "spiritual leader" and put them in chain gangs to clean up polluted superfund sites.
Take all their money and property and fund programs for homeless gay teenagers.
Posted by: Ranger_Rick
|
May 22, 2009 9:05 AM
IMHO this is just another example of delusional, self-serving, deviant thugs living their lives perpetuating fraud on others through force and humiliation. Unfortunately, the behavior of these criminals has changed little over the course of time.
It has been repeatedly documented and is absolutely observable through the frequency, intensity and duration of behaviors that "church officials and flocks" in Ireland, the US and elsewhere...who believe in sky-fairies and practice biblically based beliefs are a fundamental danger to society and have extracted untold pain, suffering and death on others through mass ignorance and morally deceptive practices. One can only ask, when will this meme end?
Posted by: toby | May 22, 2009 9:45 AM
#31 said "These horrible people were No True Irishmen."
What a load of bollocks. These were typical Irishmen who took advantage of a pervasive ultra-Catholic consensus to satisfy their lusts. In those days "you could not go against the church".
There is a heart-rending letter in today's Irish Times from a man who as a young boy ran away from repeated rapes in the Instituion in which he was held to his local police station. The police admonished him for speaking about religious people "in that way" and returned him to his paedophile rapists. His experience was not unique.
Now the boy is a man in New York suffering from PTSD and suicidal impulses. The generous Irish state will fund his counselling but not his medication, despite the fact that his doctor has pleaded with them to do so. How long do you think he will last?
Even the last Taoiseach (Prime Minister), the most popular man in the country at the time, lost his nerve and gave the Orders the soft financial landing they demanded. Of course, he was not adverse to raising his own salary to the level of that of George W. Bush, the President of the USA! Hey, taxpayers are a bottomless well, we'll pay for all the transgressions of the great and the good, like making sure Father Jack can have a comfortable retirement instead of helping the kids ridden by him or his pals.
What a bunch of sleazy, slimy bastards. In fact, I am shocked that anyone is shocked! Most of this has been known for years - there is another report due out soon on the Diocese of Dublin alone and its priesthood, a group of men either lusting after young flesh or tolerant of those who were. No doubt we will be treated to more hand-wringing and apologies, as long as you don't ask for some of the Church's money, of course!
Posted by: Eamon | May 22, 2009 10:48 AM
Sigmund @ 147
I went to a Christian Brothers School in Northern Ireland in the 70s and 80s and was well acquainted with the leather, or the 'strap' as we called it.
I suffered near hourly beatings from a Brother for having the temerity to be skipped forward a year (at the School's urging) - and thus not knowing the basics that had been taught in the year I was skipped.
The only thing that saved me was that a school dinner lady bumped into my mum in town and told her the whole story - setting in motion a chain of events that lead to my father putting 'the fear of god' into said Brother. Sad to say my dad could only get away with that because we were middle class.
The Brother in question stayed at the school. The effects of his actions are still with me.
Posted by: Sigmund | May 22, 2009 1:41 PM
Eamon, the christian brothers primary school I went to in the 1970s had mostly non religious order teachers, many of whom seemed seriously repressed into expressing themselves through beating children in their care. Brother Kelly with his 'leather' was far from the worse thing you could encounter. In my own case I remember Mr Rooney and his implement of torture, a particularly vicious looking length of wood that had two nails protruding from it. Many is the time I stood in front of him as he turned red trying to pack all his frustration within five or ten whacks aimed at my outstretched palms. There were about forty of us in the class and we managed to endure about half the school year of his malevolence before one classmate John-Joe cracked and ran from the room in the middle of a set of ten.
Mr Rooney glared at the rest of us for twenty minutes, tempting one or more to make a sound and replace John-Joe as todays target when suddenly the door flew open and there stood John-Joes mother. Mr Rooney suddenly became mute but no matter, she wasn't there for a chat. She walked up to his desk, pulled out the top drawer and calmly took the dreaded tool of punishment and walked out of the class.
Mr Rooney lasted another week and was replaced.
Two weeks later someone brought in a clipping from one of the Sunday newspapers. There, in a large black and white picture was Mr Rooneys stick, nails and all! It was like a brush with fame, with Mr Rooneys stick being the one who made it big.
Posted by: Seraphiel | May 22, 2009 2:03 PM
The Vatican was involved. Pope Benny, then Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Inquisition Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith obstructed civil investigation of pedophila.
Sounds to me like the victims may have grounds to sue him personally, and the church itself.
Conspiracy after the fact, obstruction of justice. Does Ireland have laws to deal with enterprise corruption? Not that a country so heavily riddled with religion would do something so bold as to revoke the church's tax exemption, or even penalize them for their heinous crimes...
But, this makes it clear that the church is effectively an international criminal enterprise, exploiting their tax-exempt status to conceal and commit child abuse of the most depraved sort. They inflict terror upon helpless children, all with funding directly from the Vatican.
Sounds like the very definition of a "terrorist state" to me.
Posted by: Eamon | May 23, 2009 9:39 AM
Sigmund @166
Now that's a great story. A perfect come-uppance.
We had a whole host of lay teachers in our primary school - in fact the Brother I was physically abused by was the only one teaching there - though there was a Brother as a headmaster (and he was a fine man). Our lay teacher were fine - one forgoed the strap altogether as he could detach his inner eyelids at will. At the time we were all in fear of his 'red eyes' - but later we learned to appreciate the fact that he did that instead of strapping us.
We also got the strap in the CBS Grammar that was associated with the primary school. There some of the lay teachers were over-enthusiastic with the strap. I remember one teacher giving us a general knowledge quiz. 'Way-hay!' we thought - a break from English grammar! It was only when students started getting six of the best for not knowing FA Cup champions that we realised that it was just a fucked-up reason to beat us.
As an aside - the only place in Ireland, North or South, that handled the straps was a shop in Temple Bar, Dublin. Long after leaving school I heard a tale of two teachers being beaten senseless by a former student who had spotted them in Dublin and followed them to the shop. Apocryphal probably - but one I wish was true.
P.s Your Brother Kelly didn't have a first name of 'Leo' by any chance?
P.s.s One of the worst teachers in our school opened up his strap and put a 50p piece between the two tongues of leather that made it up. I was glad I never had him as a teacher.
Posted by: Some Guy | May 24, 2009 10:30 PM
She walked up to his desk, pulled out the top drawer and calmly took the dreaded tool of punishment and walked out of the class.
I am astounded at her self-control. I would have made him swallow it.
Posted by: baconner | May 25, 2009 1:30 AM
Every once in a while I really do wish that there was a god... And a hell.
Unfortunately we can't wait for god to sort these guys out when they die. It's up to us humans to investigate, capture, and prosecute. It is a gross injustice to investigate and stop there.
Posted by: Jane | August 21, 2009 2:53 AM
Who told that "Christians" are forgiven and by whom?
Somebody heard God's words from the sky: i forgive "Christians"? First know one thing it is very logical for those who have brains: One person will not answer for another person's sin made right? the same when one person will not be rewarded by the God for good things that were made by another person.
Jesus Christ was sent to save people from the Hell, bringing the the Life Guide-Bible, so people following this guide will save themselves. And no need to say bad things about religion, as not religion is bad, but the people who under "religion" cover doing their devil things.
As for the citizens of Irish would tell:
First people should fight with those things going on in the church, save children not just bla bla bla. Fed up with this "Bla-bla-bla" and no actions.
If you are citizenS of Ireland and of this place where these horor things are going on, why you are so calm and do not do anything. Need to make demonstration or other things to MAKE Government to stop this cruel things.
We all guilty for those bad things happening in our life, because we are far from the God, and do not ask and address to Him to help, but addressing to His slaves to help.
Ask only One God who is the Creator of this World, Who was not born and doesn't have children as He all-sufficient.