…and this is a 
A young man in Kansas had a traumatic event in his life. Here's a simple outline of what happened.
Chase Kear has a serious accident, fracturing his skull. | |
↓
Doctors arrive in a helicopter.
Doctors administer emergency care.
Helicopter arrives at hospital; doctors take him into surgery.
Surgeons remove portion of his skull to protect his brain from swelling.
Kear is treated with antibiotics to prevent infections.
Swelling reduces, doctors restore Kear's skull. |
↓
Family prays.
Family prays.
Family asks for the last rites to be administered to Kear.
Family prays.
Family prays.
Family prays.
Family prays. |
Kear survives, is rehabilited, and seems to be making a full recovery. | |
There are two ways of looking at this event. You either look at all the hard work that was put into saving Kear and helping him recover (the left column), or you ignore all that and pretend it was a group of people sitting around with folded hands who magically prodded an invisible man to do indetectable things that saved him (the right column). The latter view is now prompting the Catholic Church to send in a team of 'investigators' to determine whether Kear's recovery was a miracle.
You should see me right now. I turned water into iced tea this morning, and right now I'm levitating a glass of the stuff with the power of my mind. Please ignore the contributions of the Lipton company, and the fact that I'm also using my left hand to hold up the glass, and canonize me. Oh, wait…I feel another magical transformation coming on. Let me submit this post (Huzzah! I affect electrons thousands of miles away!) and teleport myself to the bathroom. I expect emissaries from the Vatican to be at the door by the time I get back.
Comments
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 21, 2009 12:22 PM
with...
The Soft Cushions!!!!!!!
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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June 21, 2009 12:24 PM
RCC getting a bit desperate these days, huh?
Posted by: Hank Fox | June 21, 2009 12:26 PM
Just sitting here, I'm currently working on transubstantiating a spaghetti and meatball dinner into ... um, well, fertilizer. Fortunately, I have the Blessed Porcelain Altar to assist me, in a few minutes, in making the process truly holy.
Posted by: Zeno | June 21, 2009 12:27 PM
It's a pity, isn't it, that the Catholic Church can't consider the case for PZ's canonization until after his death. PZ is a true miracle-worker, and inexplicable phenomena attend his every move.
I feel blessed.
Does he have a gourd we could worship?
Posted by: The Skeptic Wept | June 21, 2009 12:29 PM
Seems the threshold for proving miracles gets lowered every day.
Oh BTW PZ, if you think turning water into iced tea is something I must tell you that frequently, while driving, I have turned into a driveway. Quick, call the church. Can sainthood for us be far behind?
Posted by: PZ Myers
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June 21, 2009 12:30 PM
For the low, low price of $9.95+S/H, I will send you your very own blessed gourd.
Posted by: raven | June 21, 2009 12:34 PM
Turning water into iced tea is small time wizardry.
This morning I prayed to the gods of Internal Combusition, Exxon and his daughter Chevron. Then put the key in the ignition and with a simple turn, started the horseless chariot and drove away.
This would have astonished the Ancients but these days, the knowledge of sorcery is quite widespread and even the cats weren't very impressed.
Posted by: Citizen of the Cosmos
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June 21, 2009 12:34 PM
Bloody hell, it's the 21st century. Praying, last rites, divine miracles and such things are not only things that belong in primitive lo-tech societies, it also show a disgusting lack of respect for people who actually do things to help victims of accidents, for example. Rescue workers, ambulance medics, doctors and nurses, modern medical science don't matter to some people. Since theists believe that prayer works, and that god is to be credited for the survival of accident victims, I must conclude that they don't think that actual treatments based on modern medicine have any effect.
Posted by: Lynnai | June 21, 2009 12:37 PM
aahh but your left hand is powered by your mind and thus anybody who argues is clearly deluded.
*sigh* it's too easy to mock this kind of logic isn't it?
Posted by: T_U_T | June 21, 2009 12:38 PM
there is also the libertarian way. bystanders watch and take photos while he dies, and the family gets to pay full cost of cleaning the blood.
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 21, 2009 12:39 PM
They weren't even praying to God, ferchrissakes.
So Catholics can pray to whatever dead guy's soul they want to? Even though their god let the guy die in a prison camp? It's weird stuff.
I also loved this:
I wonder which dead guy was prayed to in the equally miraculous case of Phineas Gage.
Posted by: DiscoveredJoys | June 21, 2009 12:43 PM
If Chase Kear had been a Mormom or a Muslim (etc. etc.) would the Vatican be quite so keen to see a miracle? If not, why not?
Posted by: THINK! | June 21, 2009 12:43 PM
Can I get some love for the EMS? No doubt the quick and reasoned response of the Emergency Medical Technicians on the scene helped save this guys life.
Posted by: Kevin | June 21, 2009 12:48 PM
ABSOLUTELY GLORIOUS!!! LOL!
Posted by: The Science Pundit
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June 21, 2009 12:48 PM
I can top that! Behold as I turn water into wine. :-)
Posted by: NewEnglandBob
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June 21, 2009 12:50 PM
Obviously being left-handed is worthy of godly worship. Never mind those who find it sinister.
Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | June 21, 2009 12:51 PM
I knew a family who took the right-hand path. It cost me a friend.
http://digitalcuttlefish.blogspot.com/2008/10/adding-insult-to-injury-or-adding-abuse.html
Posted by: matt | June 21, 2009 1:04 PM
great ad for the church, maybe they'll get a few bucks out of it lol
Posted by: rrt | June 21, 2009 1:04 PM
Sven @ #1:
I wasn't expecting that.
Posted by: Miguel | June 21, 2009 1:06 PM
Family prays. Vatican preys.
Posted by: ThirtyFiveUp | June 21, 2009 1:09 PM
Seriously, the life of Emil Kapaun is noteworthy. May he be an example as to how humans can be at their best.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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June 21, 2009 1:10 PM
I can turn wine into urine without even conscious thought.*
*Yes, I do indulge in conscious thought every so once in a while. But not often, as I prefer to prevent wear and tear on the brain.
Posted by: blf | June 21, 2009 1:11 PM
I managed to get out of bed today. A miracle!
Posted by: tubbolard | June 21, 2009 1:16 PM
Typical. Don't suppose it occured to anybody that the family prays for a good outcome and let the medicos do their work. As for the 'didn't pray to God' part- shows a basic lack of knowledge of the way a Catholic prays.
Posted by: Joe | June 21, 2009 1:17 PM
You are very, very interested in God and the Church, PZ. In fact, most of your postings are about God. This is not at all a frivolous, inconsequential, matter, about which Scientists tee-hee in the lab. Sooner or later, since you think about it constantly, you will get close enough to God, to make accidental contact. It is like grabbing a high voltage line, or falling through the ice into the stream below. It can be an extremely difficult, shattering experience...
Posted by: llewelly | June 21, 2009 1:19 PM
PZ Myers | June 21, 2009 12:30 PM
LIAR!!! HERETIC!!! IMPOSTOR!!!
The real PZ would sell us blessed shoes. So you must be a reptoid hybrid replacement.
Posted by: IST | June 21, 2009 1:27 PM
The part of these stories I find truly revolting is the complete lack of credit given to the people who actually helped,
Posted by: Canuck | June 21, 2009 1:33 PM
You think that's something? Just after lunch today I turned a piece of paper that was no more than 14 square inches into a bottle of good South American wine and a couple of litres of European beer. Oh, wait, I think there were "store people" involved in that transaction. Maybe even the government.
I could have cured that kid in a trice. One doesn't need hard work, or special knowledge. You just need to "believe". In fact I'm about to get Jesus to cook me a fathers' day dinner, because I'm a father, and I folded my hands and asked for it. Oh, and I want him to do the laundry too. Then I'll phone the Vatican and we'll have another miracle. I just love how these miracles work. So much evidence that one can't help but believe. I just have this sinking feeling that if I watch this movie with my daughter that there will be no dinner on the table when it's over. Have I been deceived?
Posted by: blf | June 21, 2009 1:34 PM
Whilst St Pee Zed has his blessed gourds, I have the miraculous blessed protofig (the crocofig). There was a strong wind last night, and some branches of my fig tree came down, laden with green fruit still being created. I got out of bed (see previous miracle) and saved, yes saved, these protofigs from rotting away. Blessed be the crocofigs. And now, for a low low price of 49,99€ (p&p extra), you can have one of these blessed miraculous crocofigs. Hurry, order now whilst supplies last!
And, for an extra 99,99€, I'll personally dunk them in the Mediterranean Sea! Your very own salt-washed blessed miraculous crocofigs for the low, low, price of 179,99€ (p&p extra). Order now!
Posted by: Jennifer A. Burdoo | June 21, 2009 1:35 PM
Reminds me of the comic I saw once:
Two cars have collided on the road way. One has an Christian Fish on its bumper, the other a Darwin Fish. Xian thinks, "Thank God I survived!" Darwin-fish guy thinks, "Thank the random processes of chance I survived!"
The way that should have been is:
Xian: Thank God I survived!
Darwin: Thank the bystanders who called 911, the engineers who designed and built my car, and the police and paramedics who saved my life!
Joe seems not to be paying attention to current events...
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | June 21, 2009 1:35 PM
You misunderstand.
This post, for example, is about human stupidity in general, and the stupidity of the organization called "Catholic Church" in particular.
Don't you agree it was a stupid decision to practically abolish the advocatus diaboli?
Don't you agree it's stupid to take the possibility of a miracle seriously when a much simpler explanation is available?
It's furthermore interesting that you write "the Church", as if there weren't over 30,000 of them.
Posted by: Theron | June 21, 2009 1:39 PM
I'm not a believer, but I always liked the believer's rejoinder to the "I'll pray and God will provide" business. To keep the joke short - Man's home is slowly being engulfed by rising floodwaters. He refuses help from series of trucks, boats, and helicopters that try so save him, saying "God will provide." When he drowns and confronts God, he demands to know why God didn't save him. God replies: "What do you mean? I sent you a truck, a boat, and a helicopter."
Posted by: Derek Colanduno | June 21, 2009 1:40 PM
I had to tell people OVER AND OVER when I got out of the hospital, and back to work, and such after my massive stroke that... there was no miracle, and that 'God' or 'Jesus' had nothing to do with my recovery. If they wanted to give that praise and love to someone, give it to my doctors, I know them, and I can give them their names and an address where you can send them letters of praise.
It annoys me when people didn't get what I was telling them. I mean, people give so much vocal praise and love to the air and are so public about saying that something 'divine' could save people they love. But, where is that same love for the person or people who ACTUALLY save the ones they love?
Posted by: 386sx | June 21, 2009 1:46 PM
Oh, wait…I feel another magical transformation coming on. Let me submit this post (Huzzah! I affect electrons thousands of miles away!) and teleport myself to the bathroom. I expect emissaries from the Vatican to be at the door by the time I get back.
They're probably already in the bathroom!!
(I dunno what that means, but I just fealt it had to be said for some reason.)
Posted by: Jafafa Hots | June 21, 2009 1:47 PM
"Sooner or later, since you think about it constantly, you will get close enough to God, to make accidental contact. It is like grabbing a high voltage line, or falling through the ice into the stream below. It can be an extremely difficult, shattering experience..."
Psychotic breaks can be rough.
Posted by: Andrewsarchus | June 21, 2009 1:48 PM
As per the comment made by the young man's neurosurgeon about his recovery being a miracle. I make it a habit of strongly avoiding doctors who believe a patients survival is a miracle. I'd much rather be seen by a doctor who prefers reality.
Posted by: Parrot132 | June 21, 2009 1:48 PM
A long time ago during one of the episodes that gave us the term "going postal", a woman postal worker found a good hiding place to escape from a crazy gunman. She would have been fine except that she chose to say her prayers, which the gunman overheard. She was shot, but doctors managed to save her.
When her husband was asked what he thought about it all, he answered that his wife was still alive because God had answered her prayers.
Posted by: mxh | June 21, 2009 1:48 PM
@#12... good point.
Posted by: JD | June 21, 2009 1:57 PM
Now, now PZ. What the bleep do we know? Your iced tea may have been part of quantum entanglement.
Posted by: Matt | June 21, 2009 2:07 PM
To the theists that responded to this:
This blog focuses primarily on atheism, so of course PZ is going to discuss religious matters that we consider quite ridiculous. When I needed emergency surgery, I didn't pray to any deity. I reposed my trust in the team of doctors/modern medicine, and I turned out absolutely fine. It's a slap across the face to the men and women that save your life to claim, "Well, praying is responsible."
This is what theists do: they credit prayer when they make a recovery from an illness, but there are many cases in which prayer circles that mirror this one have been complete and utter failures. Everything in life has a success rate. The fact that this boy survived due to modern surgery in no way substantiates the supposed "reality" of prayer. It's an incredibly weak substitute for actually doing something yourself.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | June 21, 2009 2:15 PM
Joe writes:
It is like grabbing a high voltage line, or falling through the ice into the stream below. It can be an extremely difficult, shattering experience...
How do you know this?
Posted by: XD | June 21, 2009 2:20 PM
Is this what happened to you? Sounds like confirmation bias.Again, was this your experience? Sounds very much like temporal lobe epilepsy.
Y'know, at one time, people believed that lightning was thrown by god. Many people were satisfied with that explanation. Other people took the time and effort to work out what was really causing the phenomenon. Which group would you have been in?
Posted by: raven | June 21, 2009 2:23 PM
Nobody said it yet.
Chase Kear has a serious accident, fracturing his skull.
So why didn't god and the guardian angels prevent this guy from having a serious accident and fracturing his skull?
Posted by: peter | June 21, 2009 2:25 PM
there is a saying in the mennonite church: help yourself so god helps you, meaning that despite a believe in a deity - we gotta do the work.
If a miracle is proof for a deity - what the fuck with all the miracles due to any amount of hindu gods and godesses,
any amount of healing successfully done by shamans etc. etc. All proof that their god/s exist?
Miracles - proof that all gods exist - or none?
Posted by: Hank Fox | June 21, 2009 2:25 PM
Joe #25 said: “You are very, very interested in God and the Church, PZ. In fact, most of your postings are about God. [...] Sooner or later, since you think about it constantly, you will get close enough to God, to make accidental contact.”
On the other hand, as an evolutionary biologist, PZ’s constant exposure to and interest in the three-spined stickleback should eventually turn him into The Incredible Mr. Limpet.
Quoting Joe again: “It is like grabbing a high voltage line, or falling through the ice into the stream below.”
And praise be to Don Knotts.
Posted by: blf | June 21, 2009 2:28 PM
She was too busy hiding from Teh Gay, and they were all in Africa warning about the dangers of using condoms.
Posted by: Lilith | June 21, 2009 2:35 PM
When I died on the operating table at age 13 (due to an allergic reaction to the anaesthetic) it was the medical staff on hand who brought me back, not any miracle. Mind you, since they killed me in the first place, it was their responsibility :-)
Posted by: Lynna | June 21, 2009 2:35 PM
Here's another miracle...and this one may have been caused by the Mormon god. There's a video of the miraculous fall and survival. Rock climbers are special to god.
Posted by: Dr.Woody
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June 21, 2009 2:36 PM
Talk about fuuking MIRACULOUS!
Just the other day, I passed a church and turned into a parking lot
Posted by: Jeff S | June 21, 2009 2:40 PM
Considering miracles don't really happen, what else can they call miracles?
Posted by: 386sx | June 21, 2009 2:42 PM
You are very, very interested in God and the Church, PZ. In fact, most of your postings are about God.
You do know that this is like saying to someone who writes about the tooth fairy a lot that they write about the tooth fairy a lot, right? You would never think that since someone writes a lot about God then that would constitute real evidence for its existence, right?
You would never make use of such a blatantly unfair fallacy as that, right? You know, like a little baby who says "Nya nya nya you said Gosd that means it's real nya nya no takebacks ha hahah haa gothca!!"
You would never think anything as stupid and childish like that, right? You know, up there with the hamsters turning over there by the cuckoo's nest region in the cerebral cortex thingy, right?
This is not at all a frivolous, inconsequential, matter, about which Scientists tee-hee in the lab.
You make the mistake of assuming that this blog should be about frivolous, inconsequential, matters. I guess!
Posted by: Epikt
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June 21, 2009 2:48 PM
May we assume the surgeon won't be sending a bill, then?
Posted by: Evolving Squid | June 21, 2009 2:50 PM
Sorry folks, but there is a verifiable miracle here. I'm surprised you don't all see it.
The miracle:
that any of those religious yahoos had the basic brainpower to call 911 (or whatever) instead of dropping to their knees immediately in intercessory prayer
That's a story of hope if you ask me. certainly there have been enough stories in the news of late about people who either didn't call doctors or ignored the advice of doctors and relied on prayer resulting in the death of children.
Posted by: Noni Mausa | June 21, 2009 2:55 PM
Hey gang, look back, w-a-a-a-y-y-y back to Samuel Clemens, who wrote eloquently on the same topic.
[Of course, you think I can find the essay now, when I want it? Pfhh.]
In any event, he wrote about how people thank God for the wonderful blessing of, say, a cure for smallpox or a rescue of mountain-climbers, without ever mentioning that some scientist had worked for years on the vaccine, and that rescue teams train for exactly that emergency.
And you don't hear these same bozos blaming God when something miraculously awful happens, like an innocent housewife killed while doing dishes, when a meteor lands in her kitchen.
Noni
~a day spent reading Mark Twain is a day well spent~
Posted by: Sky | June 21, 2009 3:00 PM
I have no idea what story the family sent to the Vatican to convince them to send people to check it. However, if you ever accompanied a miracle "declaration" process you'll know it's not a matter of what the family says. It's almost impossible to get a miracle declared. Unless the doctors that treated the guy agree that there is no scientific explanation for his recovery (which doesn't look like the case), then the miracle investigation process is archived right there and then. Even if the doctors say that he was not supposed to survive and they don't know how he did, then the Vatican medical experts would have to agree with that as well (the doctors might be friends of the family, religious fanatics, bribed, whatever). It is not in the interest of the Catholic Church to have miracles flying around, and they tend to difficult is as much as possible.
If what PZ wrote is the truth (and I believe it is), then there is no way a miracle declaration is coming out of this.
Posted by: Sky | June 21, 2009 3:02 PM
I have no idea what story the family sent to the Vatican to convince them to send people to check it. However, if you ever accompanied a miracle "declaration" process you'll know it's not a matter of what the family says. It's almost impossible to get a miracle declared. Unless the doctors that treated the guy agree that there is no scientific explanation for his recovery (which doesn't look like the case), then the miracle investigation process is archived right there and then. Even if the doctors say that he was not supposed to survive and they don't know how he did, then the Vatican medical experts would have to agree with that as well (the doctors might be friends of the family, religious fanatics, bribed, whatever). It is not in the interest of the Catholic Church to have miracles flying around, and they tend to difficult is as much as possible.
If what PZ wrote is the truth (and I believe it is), then there is no way a miracle declaration is coming out of this.
Posted by: Chayanov | June 21, 2009 3:10 PM
If the doctors had listened to the priests, he would have died and then where would their miracle be? I know people have a tendency to spout "It's a miracle!" without actually thinking through the implications of what they've said, but I really do wish they would.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | June 21, 2009 3:15 PM
Ahh. The efficacy of trepanning. Known to observant (scientific) humans far longer than any currently popular ISS*.
But it's still magic!
*Invisible Supernatural Spook
Posted by: Cay | June 21, 2009 3:19 PM
It is just wackadoodle. The comments are hilarious - especially the internecine attacks by the "Christian" who chastises people for praying to the priest and not to God himself.
Posted by: noodles | June 21, 2009 3:20 PM
Meanwhile, people of the Catholic superstition are upset over a new video game. Or more specifically, the mock protest of the game.
"Catholics across the blogosphere are angry with Electronic Arts, who hired several actors to stage a mock protest of its Dante's Inferno game outside the Electronic Entertainment Expo."
"...the hardcore gaming community is full of the risible self-parodies known as the "freethinking" - the Richard Dawkins-loving, fundamentalist atheist, "I'm-so-much-smarter-than-you-are-because-I-don't-believe-in-God" types..."
Posted by: not a gator | June 21, 2009 3:24 PM
Kooky Catholics, don't you know the gods are retired? They have doctors to do all that healing stuff now. Keep looking for the sacred heart in tortillas and the Blessed Virgin in highway overpasses. Paraeidolia is like a little Christmas card from your beloved alma mater and verus esposus or however that goes...
You know, your brain gets twisted when you grow up in a polytheistic religion which you're forbidden to call polytheistic. If that's not enough, there's the koan of the three-in-one and that one they call "transubstantiation".
Posted by: Dorkman
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June 21, 2009 3:27 PM
Also of note, according to the chart, the family gave up halfway through and asked for the administration of last rites. Fortunately the doctors weren't quite so fatalistic and continued working to save his life.
Posted by: Roland J Branconnier, MA | June 21, 2009 3:28 PM
In a recent paper by Branconnier and Moncheski (2009):
http://www.addictioninfo.org/articles/3588/1/, we offered the following:
"If you doubt the power of empirical science over folk science consider the following scenario:
You are a recovering heroin addict. You have 60 days clean time. You decide that you will attend your Narcotic Anonymous home group tonight. As you arrive at the meeting you are greeted by one of your old running buddies. He has heroin and asked you if you want some. You immediately say YES. You go to the rest room, shoot-up and decide it’s a good idea to go to the meeting. You sit down, nod-off, fall on the floor and turn blue. You are overdosed and are about to die.
What do you want your group members to do?
A. Pray for you or
B. Call 911 and get you a shot of Narcan ASAP
Case Closed."
Posted by: not a gator | June 21, 2009 3:30 PM
#11
"Even though their god let the guy die in a prison camp? It's weird stuff."
Well, clearly it is a good way to die because it freed him from this vale of tears and released him directly into Paradise, where, naturally, he was able to receive their prayers and pass them on, directly, and successfully, to somebody with real power.
See, Catholicism is all about the bureaucracy, and dying a martyr's death is the equivalent of retiring at long last with the best pension ever.
Posted by: nomuse | June 21, 2009 3:34 PM
The thing I like about God the Miracle Worker is that he's a little slow. Maybe he needs a better alert system. "It was a miracle I survived the plane crash!" Pity about, well, the plane, and all the other people on it! Hey, God, maybe next time start the miracle twenty minutes earlier, huh?
Posted by: Felix | June 21, 2009 3:37 PM
noodles,
source please?
Interesting that Catholics of all should be getting upset over a parody of believers. This parody was a parody of the exact type of believers that, as we are constantly being told by Catholics, do not resemble or share their interpretation of Christianity. Richard Dawkins was told personally by a Catholic bishop and his Protestant counterpart that the 'don't teach that anymore', speaking about eternal damnation in hell in the tortured forever sense. Which is exactly the scenario that EA's game depicts.
So, Catholics are angry that EA parodies their beliefs with an exact replica of their beliefs and lingo which aren't their beliefs the moment an educated atheists asks, but otherwise are great to get in the media.
Or, maybe the bishop is simply pig-ignorant about what his sheep actually believe in. Or, maybe German Catholics believe in something completely different than those who now protest the parody. Given their conduct to date, and the reports I've read about what Catholics in general and some German Catholics specifically were actually tought as late as the 1990s, the bishop was simply lying. I'll go with the evidence. Catholicism is systemized lying, turtles all the way down, to the last guy lying to his mirror image at home.
Posted by: Felix | June 21, 2009 3:39 PM
noodles,
source please?
Interesting that Catholics of all should be getting upset over a parody of believers. This parody was a parody of the exact type of believers that, as we are constantly being told by Catholics, do not resemble or share their interpretation of Christianity. Richard Dawkins was told personally by a Catholic bishop and his Protestant counterpart that they 'don't teach that anymore', speaking about eternal damnation in hell in the tortured forever sense. Which is exactly the scenario that EA's game depicts.
So, Catholics are angry that EA parodies their beliefs with an exact replica of their beliefs and lingo which aren't their beliefs the moment an educated atheists asks, but otherwise are great to get in the media.
Or, maybe the bishop is simply pig-ignorant about what his sheep actually believe in. Or, maybe German Catholics believe in something completely different than those who now protest the parody. Given their conduct to date, and the reports I've read about what many Catholics in general and some German Catholics specifically were actually tought by their nun-teachers in Catholic institutions of 'education', the bishop was simply lying. I'll go with the evidence. Catholicism is systemized lying, turtles all the way down, to the last guy lying to his mirror image at home.
(sorry in case of double post, fixed a typo on the way)
Posted by: Michael Simpson | June 21, 2009 3:46 PM
There are no miracles. There have never been any miracles. What others say are miracles are simply events for which the scientific causes have not been uncovered.
The reason Chase Kear survived is because EMT's, nurses, physicians and every other healthcare worker that I have forgotten to mention were well-trained, experienced, and skilled in dealing with this type of trauma. It's because we have created a trauma system that minimizes the amount of time it takes to get a victim to a trauma center. It's because the scientific method has taught physicians what works and doesn't work in treating these victims. And it's because we have medicines and devices that were developed through science and testing that Chase will survive. Prayers had no effect whatsoever. Maybe made the parents feel better, I don't know.
I'm glad Catholic medical schools (Georgetown, Loyola, Creighton, and St. Louis University) produce top surgeons who also don't believe that prayer is going to cure a trauma victim.
I get so pissed off whenever I read these stories. This will go beyond the Catholic community into the whole quack community, instead of being analyzed for what it is: how do we use the lessons here of treating a trauma to doing it better everywhere. What if the system failed? It was a problem with prayers? No, real surgeons and trauma teams learn from it to cut seconds off the transport, to provide better medicines, to make decisions better.
I wish I could just beat sense into the parents. Of course, they may be throwing some water from Lourdes onto their son next.
Posted by: noodles | June 21, 2009 3:53 PM
http://catholicvideogamers.blogspot.com/
http://www.1up.com/do/newsStory?cId=3174773
http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/new.php?n=16234
http://www.gamepolitics.com/2009/06/03/dante039s-inferno-ignites-e3-protest-0
google
Posted by: sbh | June 21, 2009 3:56 PM
Okay, the Vatican is interested because this miracle—if it passes their strict tests for being an actual miracle—would put Emil Kapaun, a Korean War hero, on the path to sainthood. Apparently, according to the article linked to, one or two miracles are required, depending on whether he was a martyr. For some reason I thought there was a minimum of three, but I probably got that from some expert like Father Guido Sarducci. This Emil Kapaun seems to have been an actual hero, putting his life on the line for wounded men behind enemy lines, and in a way I find it touching that people are so determined so many years after his death to honor him with this title. Insane, but touching.
Posted by: Evil Eye | June 21, 2009 3:57 PM
If only they would pray that hard for my friend who lost his legs to grow them back.
Posted by: Ragutis | June 21, 2009 3:59 PM
... that frequently causes brain damage.
Posted by: Anonym | June 21, 2009 4:00 PM
Joe@#25
Posted by: Anonym | June 21, 2009 4:06 PM
Joe@#25
(2nd try)
Like this, Joe? (see tape at 3:56)
Posted by: ThirtyFiveUp | June 21, 2009 4:12 PM
#70 sbh
"This Emil Kapaun seems to have been an actual hero,..."
Ramen
Posted by: miskidomleka | June 21, 2009 4:13 PM
Calling it a miracle is plainly insulting to the doctors, paramedics, and to thousands of scientists whose efforts led, directly or indirectly, to the success.
Same as calling the ditching in Hudson river "a miracle" was insulting to Mr. Sullenberger and Mr. Skiles.
Posted by: miskidomleka | June 21, 2009 4:15 PM
Calling it a miracle is plainly insulting to the doctors, paramedics, and to thousands of scientists whose efforts led, directly or indirectly, to the success.
Same as calling the ditching in Hudson river "a miracle" was insulting to Mr. Sullenberger and Mr. Skiles.
Posted by: Anonym | June 21, 2009 4:17 PM
Joe@#25
(3rd does it?)
Like this, Joe? (see tape at 3:56)
Posted by: Rick R | June 21, 2009 4:19 PM
In solemn and heartfelt tribute and supplication to the Greek pantheon-
Thanks for the miracles, boys!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoocvbn-bl4
Posted by: not a gator | June 21, 2009 4:31 PM
@ #58
"My God, man! Drilling holes in his head isn't the answer!"
Yeah, yeah. It was just dying to be said anyway.
Posted by: Roberto Aguirre
|
June 21, 2009 4:38 PM
Unfortunately, in many many cases the very same doctors who performed the life saving action think that the whole thing was a miracle.
Posted by: Rey Fox | June 21, 2009 4:41 PM
"The miracle:
that any of those religious yahoos had the basic brainpower to call 911 (or whatever) instead of dropping to their knees immediately in intercessory prayer"
Nah, not really. Only the really really hardcore cases (what the mainstream religions call "cults") only pray. Most other people give plenty of lip service to the big G and his miracles, but when the chips are really down, they go to the actual people who actually do the actual work. It's belief in belief, don'tchaknow.
"Unless the doctors that treated the guy agree that there is no scientific explanation for his recovery (which doesn't look like the case), then the miracle investigation process is archived right there and then."
Makes you wish that we had these miracle investigators on the side of actual skepticism.
Posted by: QrazyQat | June 21, 2009 4:44 PM
"There was no diety involved; it was my cross-circuiting to B."
Posted by: waldteufel | June 21, 2009 4:46 PM
As I read the article, no credit was given to the helicopter pilot(s), medics, surgeons, or anyone else who was actually working very hard, pressing their various skills into action to save this young man.
Who gets the credit? The invisible sky fairy that the CatLicks love to mumble to in times of stress.
Where the hell was their sky fairy when when the accident happened? Fishing for souls? Baking communion cookies?
Torturing infidels? Playing with his peepee?
Yikes!
Posted by: QrazyQat | June 21, 2009 4:47 PM
Where the hell was their sky fairy when when the accident happened? Fishing for souls? Baking communion cookies?
Torturing infidels? Playing with his peepee?
Since we are made in His image, odds are on that last one.
Posted by: Flounder99 | June 21, 2009 4:53 PM
Oh goody! Crack Vatican Investigators! Just like all those crack investigators that investigated reports of child molestation? Boy, those investigators really got to the bottom of that one, didn't they?
Posted by: cicely
|
June 21, 2009 4:58 PM
tubbolard @ 21:
The point is, the prayers (regardless of who/what they were intended to be directed to) only affect the mental and emotional states of the ones doing the praying, and do not do any actual work, or affect the knowledge and capabilities of the medical personnel at all. (Unless you would contend that without the prayers, 'God' habitually handicaps emergency and medical efforts?)
Go Team Science!
Posted by: Dust | June 21, 2009 4:59 PM
I was injured at a sporting event a few years ago which garnened my first (and hopefully last) ride in an ambulance. My injury required surgery (2X) and physical therapy (2X) to heal.
Thanks to the efforts of many flesh and blood people and miracle like technology (cell phones to call the 911 center, as a small example)I healed up just fine.
The one thing that bugged me is I have two hospital choices on my healh insurance, and I begged the EMTs to not take me to the local Catholic hospital, but because it is the regional trauma center that my insurance will cover, they did.
Oh well. Wouldn't go there by choice!
Posted by: Tim H | June 21, 2009 5:00 PM
My cousin Lindsey (who I did not know well, as she was 20 years younger than me) collapsed one August when she was 18. She was two weeks away from going off to college at UW-Green Bay. She was very religious. It was an aggressive brain tumor. Despite heroic medical efforts, she was dead within 3 months.
My nephew Nathan was acting somewhat ill one evening when I was visiting. He was two. It seemed somewhat different to his parents than the flu, so my sister took him to the doctor the next day, who did a precautionary blood test. When she got home from work, my sister received a call from the doctor to DROP EVERYTHING AND BRING NATHAN TO THE HOSPITAL. His blood counts were totally fucked up. A transfusion and subsequent bone marrow transplant saved his life. (It was a very curable form of leukemia. He was in remission within 8 days and is doing fine now at age 8.) My sister has always been religious, and is almost fanatical now.
To this day, I have no idea how a religious person could reconcile these events with a god of goodness. Either god loved Lindsey and wanted her to be with him, and he hated Nathan, or he loved Nathan and let him survive and hated Lindsey. I see nothing miraculous in either case- both got excellent medical care. Nathan was probably saved by good parenting. But the religious have been brainwashed to give their god credit for all good events and absolve him for all bad events. My sister isn't dumb. She's just been convinced to turn her brain off.
Posted by: gypsytag | June 21, 2009 5:06 PM
its the standard fair
when the patient survives they thank god,
but when they die, the doctor is sued.
Posted by: Dutchdoc
|
June 21, 2009 5:06 PM
"This is not at all a frivolous, inconsequential, matter, about which Scientists tee-hee in the lab."
Yes, it is!
Posted by: Petter | June 21, 2009 5:07 PM
There is a difference between being skeptical and just being an ignorant jerk. Yes of course the doctors cured the patient. But it surprises me that you have such a hard time accepting that the majority of people on earth tend to believe that there are higher powers in control.
Give the family a break and don´t ridicule them for their beliefs. Unles of course you just want to be a rude jerk.
Posted by: Petter | June 21, 2009 5:10 PM
There is a difference between being skeptical and just being an ignorant jerk. Yes of course the doctors cured the patient. But people with faith believes that a deity is involved at the same time.
Give the family a break and don´t ridicule them for their beliefs. Unless of course you just want to be a rude jerk.
Posted by: Daft Greg | June 21, 2009 5:15 PM
Ah yes, the cargo cults of Kansas.
Posted by: Dutchdoc
|
June 21, 2009 5:17 PM
#92: Oh boy! You REALLY like to be flamed, don't you?
And why not ridicule the ridiculous?
We're talking about dangerous and potential life-threatening superstition here ... ridicule is the LEAST we can do.
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 21, 2009 5:20 PM
Dear Brother Joseph @ 25
My friend, don’t go outside in any thunderstorms for a decade or two, God is highly pissed at you and He wanted me to let you know that you’re in for a right shit storm of Divine Wrath.
Firstly, He wants to know whom you think you are to pronounce with such confidence that He wants to have “accidental contact” with an evil atheist like Myers? God doesn’t do anything by accident, and it’s entirely up to Him whom He decides to have contact with. He hasn’t spent millennia failing to show Himself to anyone ever and carefully not offering any shred of evidence for His existence, just for you to turn around and make promises you can’t keep.
Secondly, God thinks your metaphors “SUCK!” (his words). He hates electricity! It was the discovery of electricity that caused all His problems with disobedient humans in the first place. How’s He supposed to stay mysterious and all-powerful when scientists who are too-clever-by-half keep demystifying things? God says He’s keeping an extra close eye on you now (you’d better get off the grid quickly, throw out your modern medicines and start herding goats before something really bad happens). As for the “ice in the stream” crap! Don’t you know He’s a desert God? How often does ice turn up in the Bible? The Big Guy says there’s going to be an “extremely difficult, shattering experience” all right, but it’s coming your way, and He wanted me to tell you that “when you least expect it… Expect It!”
Your miserable messenger from our really fucked-off Heavenly Father,
Smoggy Batzrubble
Posted by: another | June 21, 2009 5:21 PM
Unfortunately, this is hopeless. My late mother, dying of cancer, would sometimes take a moment to marvel at the glorious knowledge and skill that were brought to bear in the fight against the disease that would take her life. She saw it all -- the technology, the doctors' skills, the sheer abundance of resources available to modern medical practicioners -- as a gift from God.
I will not say that her delusions did not comfort her. But delusions they were.
But she was a lovely person in many ways.
Posted by: noodles | June 21, 2009 5:22 PM
The doctors, nurse, and EMT crew will say it could have been a miracle or at least that it was a miracle of sorts. Who the hell is gonna tell the next-door neighbor's 7-year-old that there isn't a Santa and make him cry? Not the doctors, nurses, or EMT crew.
Posted by: amphiox | June 21, 2009 5:30 PM
Given that this young man's family were not medical professionals and could play no part in the actual medical care of this patient, beyond providing emotional support for the patient himself (at the point in his recovery where he had progressed enough to actually recognize and respond to such support), and that their praying did not interfere with the actual care received by the patient, I don't begrudge them their prayers. Very different from those reports of medical 'professionals' wasting time praying when they should be working at caring for their patients.
The vatican investigating this as a miracle, though, that is well worthy of mockery.
That said, the majority of human beings with this young man's injuries, receiving identical treatment as this young man did, would not survive, and of those who do, few will recover as well as he did. In this sense, his recovery fits the secular understanding of the term 'miracle', that is an unlikely beneficial event for which a good rational explanation has not yet been discovered. I suspect this is all the neurosurgeon meant when he used the term. (If he meant something more, then consistency should require that he charge the patient a reduced rate for his services. After all, god did all the work.)
We must give some credit to this young man's genes. Either in terms of resistance to head injury, or response to one or more of the medical/surgical interventions, he fell within a small number of favorable variants within the larger population.
Posted by: Richie P | June 21, 2009 5:35 PM
Let's not be too hard on the boys from the Vatican- they are probably desperately looking for something to do. Theres only so much time that can be dedicated to wearing silly clothes, moaning about Dan Brown books/films and talking about magic waffers, after all.
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 21, 2009 5:36 PM
Dear Brother Petter @ 92 and (oopsie) 93,
How could you think that atheists who find all forms of faith in invisible deities pathetic could want to be rude jerks? Or that scientists whose careful discoveries are dismissed as lies by the faith-deluded, or doctors whose skills are treated as adjuncts to an invisible divine power might find such things offensive? We Christians might know that God is still on His throne, but unfortunately for most rational people His throne seems increasingly like a toilet down which believers brains are regularly flushed.
For myself, if I'm ever in a serious accident and only medical specialists can save my life, I'll be gasping with my dying breath, "Hands off... boys... and leave the... triage... to... Jesus...". And I'm sure you will be too. Death before doctors!
Yours in putting miracles before medicine
Smoggy Batzrubble
Posted by: AnswersInGenitals | June 21, 2009 5:37 PM
According to the Wichita Eagle article:
"Chase, a member of the Hutchinson Community College track team, fell on his head during pole vaulting..."
These reports always leave out the most important information. They never mention if he cleared the bar. I'm guessing he would have won the competition if pole vaulting gave points for artistic expression.
Posted by: X | June 21, 2009 5:38 PM
You are a moron, and part of the reason that American education is going to the crapper. You are a professor... and you seriously have time to sit around and try to debunk peoples' beliefs. Get a life.
Posted by: Blue Girl | June 21, 2009 5:38 PM
Through no choice of my own, I lived on the east side of Wichita on two different occasions (the choices were Wichita or military prison for my husband) and on both occasions I was one a member of the trauma team at Via Christi (although it was called St. Francis then). That kid lived because my former colleagues did their jobs well at the only level-one trauma center in Kansas (KU doesn't count - it is in Kansas City, on State Line Road. It doesn't serve out-state that much).
But if the investigators want to investigate something that comes closer to qualifying as 'miraculous' I have an incident for 'em to investigate that happened about 15 years ago.
When the Kellogg Flyover was being built (so Highway 54 traffic didn't slow to a crawl as it passed through downtown) a gang banger who was guilty as sin of a drive-by shooting that left someone dead walked on a technicality was sitting in his car at Topeka and Kellogg waiting for the light to change. A crane was moving a huge I-Beam into position overhead when suddenly the magnet that was holding it failed and the beam dropped onto the gang-bangers car and killed him instantly.
For a couple of seconds when I heard that I almost believed in God, then a couple blocks further down Central, I came upon Dr. Tiller's clinic and saw the gauntlet of protester idiots and remembered that would put me in league with those morons and resumed my heathen, atheist ways on the spot.
Posted by: Blue Girl | June 21, 2009 5:42 PM
Through no choice of my own, I lived on the east side of Wichita on two different occasions (the choices were Wichita or military prison for my husband) and on both occasions I was one a member of the trauma team at Via Christi (although it was called St. Francis then). That kid lived because my former colleagues did their jobs well at the only level-one trauma center in Kansas (KU doesn't count - it is in Kansas City, on State Line Road. It doesn't serve out-state KS that much).
But if the investigators want to investigate something that comes closer to qualifying as 'miraculous' I have an incident for 'em to investigate that happened about 15 years ago, you know, while they are in town and all...
When the Kellogg Flyover was being built (so Highway 54 traffic didn't slow to a crawl as it passed through downtown) a gang banger who was guilty as sin of a drive-by shooting that left someone dead had walked on a technicality. He was sitting in his car at Topeka and Kellogg waiting for the light to change, just a couple of days after getting out of jail. A crane was moving a huge I-Beam into position overhead when suddenly the magnet that was holding it failed and the beam dropped onto the gang-bangers car and killed him instantly. No one else was hurt.
For a couple of seconds when I heard that come out of my car radio, I almost believed in God, then a couple blocks further down Central, I came upon Dr. Tiller's clinic and saw the gauntlet of protester idiots and remembered that would put me in league with those morons and resumed my heathen, atheist ways on the spot.
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 21, 2009 5:42 PM
Dear Mr X @ 103,
I think you have the wrong post, my friend. The posts for mocking Liberty University are elsewhere.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 21, 2009 5:42 PM
thank you for that brilliant comment
Posted by: Kit | June 21, 2009 5:48 PM
"Give the family a break and don´t ridicule them for their beliefs. Unless of course you just want to be a rude jerk."
Do you really have no idea what this blog is about?
Posted by: RBH | June 21, 2009 5:49 PM
Petter wrote
Ridiculing the beliefs, which is what PZ did, is very different from ridiculing them, which PZ did not. That's the core of the Christian angst about the "new" atheists: They cannot distinguish between themselves and their beliefs. Respecting people's right to hold loony beliefs does not entail respecting the loony beliefs.Posted by: Richie P | June 21, 2009 5:54 PM
"You are a moron, and part of the reason that American education is going to the crapper. You are a professor... and you seriously have time to sit around and try to debunk peoples' beliefs. Get a life."
Well PZ already has a life, and more to the point who are you to say what he can and cannot do in his freetime?
As for why the american education is going down the crapper- that would be the Fundamentalists, IDers, Creationists and the likes of Liberty University. Thank GOODNESS that I live in the (more sane) UK.
Posted by: noodles | June 21, 2009 5:54 PM
Too bad it wasn't Army doctors and Navy corpsman who saved the kid. Then we could get all fake-indignant and shout, "How dare you insult out troops and minimize their sacrifice by claiming some magic fairy did it!"
Posted by: RBH | June 21, 2009 5:55 PM
Oh, and I should add that I wonder what that surgeon who said it was a miracle thinks would have happened had he done nothing. Was he merely doing meaningless stuff with no effect on the patient's probability of recovery?
Posted by: woozy | June 21, 2009 5:58 PM
Either god loved Lindsey and wanted her to be with him, and he hated Nathan, or he loved Nathan and let him survive and hated Lindsey. I see nothing miraculous in either case- both got excellent medical care.
Yes, but who rallied the larger prayer team? (sarcasm; I hate having to spell that out but... I have a tendency to be taken literally when when my intent is dry speculation.)
I dunno. I kinda get what what theists feel... Okay, there's a loving God out there but it's a (presumably nescessarily) imperfect world down here, and when tragedy strikes for comfort sake one wants to talk to this loving God and it's only natural to want to plead for attention. I can even get that occasionally this loving God might get moved and toss a bone.
But then ... people claim with such sincerity ideas that lead to such bizzare logical inconsistancies. My favorite is something I read about the Wailing Wall in Jeruselem. It's a common folk belief the God answers prayers addressed to the wailing wall first. Okay... that's cute and charming in its way, I suppose. So does that mean fat merchant at the wall praying for a hangnail cure gets answered before a man dedicatedly sitting by his dying wife's side? Well, ... not nescessarily; I suppose God's still powerful enough to hear and respond to all prayers but making the homage to the Wall shows a certain dedication; a pilgramage, as it were. Should the man leave his dying wife's side to make said pilgramage? Er, that leaves a bit of a bad taste in the mouth, doesn't it?
So now, get this, there's a web site in which you can submit your prayer and a guy in Jerusalem will print it out and stick it into the wall for you so your prayer'll get heard fast. Um, okay,... every step along the way to this conclussion was logical but ... God is slower than a computer???? Is that really what these folks believe?
So now this. It's a miracle because people prayed and God saved him because they prayed. I can get something's a miracle when God comes in and does something astounding and leaves a blazing signature, but because folks rallied up a large enough cheering squad? Then God deliberately ignores those who just cant gather the muster? And ... I don't get it.
======
And what's wrong with simply admitting one (a theist, not you guys or me) is praying for comfort or hoping for guidance. Or in a tragedy finding oneself (again, a theist, not you guys or me) reminded of what's really important and wanting to show God you haven't forgotten. As I said that's only natural. But to believe you are on the inside track with the almighty and he'll throw you brownie points.... that's just weird. Or other words.
Posted by: LeeLeeOne | June 21, 2009 6:03 PM
WISHFUL THINKING: I wish . . . "for X to really be Z" . . . but Y has to happen. Reality bites, don't it?!
Posted by: Richie P | June 21, 2009 6:04 PM
#109 RBH-
You are right on the money. Religious people (particularly fundies) can rarely distinguish between criticising actual people and criticsing ideas or beliefs. Yes, many Creationists are nice people, who are kind and help others and deserve respect, and that is precisely why distinguishing between the idea/belief and the individual is so important.
Posted by: amphiox | June 21, 2009 6:16 PM
IF there is a god, and IF that god is all good and all powerful and all knowing, and IF everything in the universe was designed by this god, and everything that happens is according to some perfect, divine plan. . . .
Then isn't prayer the ultimate arrogant, selfish, immoral thing that any human being can do? I mean, the bad things that happen to you or your loved one must have been planned, since god is all knowing, and since god is all good, it must have been for a good reason. Yet here you are,
imploring the creator to reverse his prior act, to disrupt his perfect plan and inconvenience the REST OF THE UNIVERSE, for your selfish benefit.
No wonder prayers aren't ever answered. It's right amazing that anyone so despicably evil as to try to pray isn't smacked with a bolt of lightning.
Posted by: Kel | June 21, 2009 6:33 PM
That's got to be the biggest insult to the doctors, hospital workers, researchers, etc. who dedicated their lives so that people like this could be saved. They do all the work and God gets the credit.
Posted by: Ichthyic | June 21, 2009 6:33 PM
But it surprises me that you have such a hard time accepting that the majority of people on earth tend to believe that there are higher powers in control.
It's not that anyone with half a brain has trouble understanding that there are large number of people who DO believe in nonsense. It's WHY they believe such nonsense that is the issue.
We even have some good ideas on that, but convincing the delusional is another matter all together.
In the meantime, ridicule works well enough where logic fails to reach.
Posted by: Hedgefundguy | June 21, 2009 6:38 PM
"Survival" is one thing, how about releasing the results of tests that show mental deficits? There's no way he's back to normal, at least he should have serious memory deficits. Is survival with mental/physical deficits a "miracle?"
Posted by: reggie | June 21, 2009 6:45 PM
hmmmm... and all the while what was your right hand doing...?
Posted by: littlejohn | June 21, 2009 6:48 PM
From X: You are a moron, and part of the reason that American education is going to the crapper. You are a professor... and you seriously have time to sit around and try to debunk peoples' beliefs. Get a life.
Does Mr. X (a relative of Malcolm, perhaps?) not appreciate the irony? He apparently has time to debunk our beliefs. PZ, I realize I've been a hard-ass about this lately, but please ban this guy. He has nothing to offer, he's massively stupid, and self-contradictory.
As far as sainthood goes, maybe we should start our own secular pantheon. Beyond the obvious Russell, Dawkins, Myers, etc., I nominate two captains courageous: Phillips and Sullenberger, both of whom saved their craft and the people under their protection through super-competence, bravery and no reference to divine intervention.
I also nominate myself. I can miraculously transform wine into urine. In fact (as you may be able to tell from my typography), I'm doing it right now.
Cheers. Hic.
Posted by: Electric Chakra | June 21, 2009 6:49 PM
At least one poster inferred that PZ had implied
that the family 'gave up' & asked for the last rites.
IIRC, last rites are performed when the situation is
dire, not necessarily at the undeniable point of death.
I think there are some people over whom last rites have
been read more than once.
Posted by: natural cynic | June 21, 2009 6:54 PM
@102: They never mention if he cleared the bar.
It might be a miracle if he cleared the bar and cracked his head because they have a nice cushion to fall on. That kind of accident occurs when the pole breaks or there is a serious miscalculation with the vaulter's speed or pole plant. These will result in falling in front of the pit.
@48
It was the extra padding in the Magic Underwear.
From the darkest depths of humor:
And which of these do you think is more likely to be someone's final words?
a] Please God, don't let this happen...
b] Oh shit...
Posted by: QrazyQat | June 21, 2009 7:04 PM
and you seriously have time to sit around and try to debunk peoples' beliefs.
You can't debunk that which isn't bunk to start with; good for you for recognising that religion is bunk. There's hope for you, my son.
Posted by: Monado | June 21, 2009 7:14 PM
Derek [#33], very good points. People are just so conditioned to give thanks to god AFTER everything has turned out OK that they tend to slight everyone else's good work.
I'd like to remind them that no amount of anguished praying saved children from diabetes until insulin was discovered by Frederick Banting, Charles Best, J. J. R. Macleod, and J. B. Collip.
Posted by: Monado | June 21, 2009 7:21 PM
Noni Mausa [#54] (Grandma Mouse?), ask and you shall receive... at least a summary: Mark Twain's Letters from the Earth, Letter 7. With pictures!
Posted by: Louis | June 21, 2009 7:33 PM
But this IS a miracle! Why can't you people see?
It's a miracle borne out of centuries of cumulative, distributed cognitive effort in medical research, millennia of person-hours worth of training, and huge quantities of rationally, reliably, empirically, observationally collected consilient data executed with skill and no small amount of compassion by well trained experts.
THAT'S a miracle.
Whaddya mean these bozos on their knees don't mean that kind of miracle? Are they utterly derang.......
Oh..
My bad.
Louis
Posted by: Monado | June 21, 2009 7:43 PM
Natural cynic [#123], according to cockpit recorders, it's 'Oh, shit!" by a large margin.
Posted by: Joe Bleau | June 21, 2009 7:48 PM
I'm sure that most of y'all have already seen this, but stories like this always make me think of this - one of my favorite Onion stories evar...
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
|
June 21, 2009 7:48 PM
You forgot one other famous "final words":
c] Hey guys, watch this!
Posted by: raven | June 21, 2009 8:20 PM
Oh really? Then why do the vast majority of people go to the doctor when they are sick? Why do they wear seat belts and buy insurance? Why do they look both ways before crossing the street? For that matter, why do they even bother getting up in the morning?
It rather looks like they may say they believe "that higher powers are in control" but they act like those higher powers aren't paying attention or doing anything.
If those "higher powers are in control", then you have no free will and are just a meat puppet. In your case, you are a meat puppet representing rude jerks, morons, and trolls. So who is pulling your strings, Loki or some third ranked angel with a warped sense of humor? ROTFLMAO, at you.
Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter | June 21, 2009 8:25 PM
Why is God, who no longer shows Himself to us mere mortals, so busy these days delivering miracles like a homeowner passing out treats on Hallowe'en?
In the OT, miracles were ALWAYS a vehicle for God to promote his agenda, good or bad, NEVER to gratify His believers.
In the NT, Jesus did some nice "miracley" things, "to manifest the power of God". "Ask & ye shall receive" which (I think was meant to refer to salvation & eternal life), has been turned into a gumball machine - put in your prayer, receive your cheesy trinket.
It's actually embarrassing that people think that way.
And, Smoggy - will you marry me & have my children? I say of you what Jessica Rabbit said of Roger "he makes me laugh".
Posted by: Wowbagger, OM | June 21, 2009 8:28 PM
I don't understand - surely the Christians would have been happy for him to die so he could go to heaven and experience absolute joy from being in their god's presence? Why would they want to prevent someone from going to what they consider the best place in the universe?
Or could it perhaps be because, deep down, they don't believe in heaven at all?
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
|
June 21, 2009 8:45 PM
it's a tragicle!
Posted by: Matt H.
|
June 21, 2009 8:56 PM
Their imaginary friend gets all the praise and none of the criticism.
Posted by: Joe Bleau | June 21, 2009 8:59 PM
Well, it oughta be, in any event.
This type of intercessory prayer is either a major insult to God's alleged omniscience, or a massive denial of his omnipotence. We are to believe that either a) God was unaware of this man's dire plight until his divine attention was attacted by the prayer power, or b) God was aware of the guy's plight, and fully prepared to let him die like he was supposed to, but somehow allowed the gaggle of praying people to change His mind.
Either depiction might be acceptable or even laudable for a human or a finite, fallible god, but both scenarios are frankly pretty damn lame for the omnimax "I am" that most modern Christians want to believe in.
Posted by: Bill | June 21, 2009 9:16 PM
I once read a book (when I was a catholic) about the process of becoming a saint in the catholic church. There is this byzantine process in which a dead person goes from being proclaimed "blessed" after so many miracles and then other levels, and finally a saint. Much investigations and debate goes into this, all costing untold amounts of money while hungry go unfed and the naked go unclothed in the world. What a sad indictment of the "charity" of the catholic church, to say nothing of the pathological narcissism. Yet this practice continues into the 21st century.
And I didn't even mention how hard it is for someone that is not a pries, nun, or violently mutilated virgin to become a saint. Anyone who was ever even married has a nearly zero chance of having their "saintly life" recognized do to the dualistic, sex-phobic, body loathing church's antedeluvian attitudes.
Not that I have any issues with this medeival hold-over or anything...
Posted by: Wowbagger, OM | June 21, 2009 9:23 PM
It also paints him as an insecure prick who needs to be sucked up to - 'get down on your knees and beg me, puny humans; maybe I'll do it and maybe I won't. But either way I want you to grovel and abase yourselves before me'.
Posted by: SEF | June 21, 2009 9:32 PM
I find religious ingrates disgusting. It's notable that they seldom (these days and when it's about themselves rather than other people whom they dislike) tell the version of the story which goes: god X smote person Y but was foiled by the efforts of a bunch of humans relying on reality-based science, medicine and engineering. It's an anti-miracle.
It's well documented that iron chariots (eg ambulances) trump god power anyway. ;-)
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 21, 2009 9:51 PM
Dear Hypatia's Daughter,
I will pray to the almighty about your question: "And, Smoggy - will you marry me & have my children?" It is a prayer request that will involve a number of miracles, not the least equipping me with a full set of female genitalia and reproductive organs (strangely enough...something I have always wanted). For these very reasons God may be prepared to answer it in the affirmative (out of sheer intellectual curiosity). You are aware of course, that as a Noo Zillunder I have an inherited predisposition towards sheep. But as you are someone who seems to have consorted with rabbits (although I am unclear which rabbit was rogered) you may not find ovine eroticism a particular problem.
A more immediate issue is my colleague and ex-cell-mate, a Mr Floyd Rubber. In case I haven't mentioned him, he is 7 feet tall, immensely fat, completely bald, and he has skulls tattooed on his eyelids. I assure you there is nothing between us other than...ahem...past intimacies forced upon me by inescapable proximity and brute strength. But Mr Rubber persists in harboring feelings for me, and recently a number of those I cared for have died in mysterious circumstances and turned up on the dinner table roasted and served with mint sauce and mashed potatoes.
Still, everybody has a past, and it may be that as you are an evil atheist with no morals who is bound for hell you will be happy to accept me for who I am.
Yours in anticipation of procreative paradise
Smoggles
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | June 21, 2009 9:53 PM
And which of these do you think is more likely to be someone's final words?
[...]
So, I started praying the only prayer I know by heart: "O Lord, if you get me out of this in one piece, I swear I'll never do it again." -- Ray Wylie Hubbard
Posted by: Gruesome Rob | June 21, 2009 9:56 PM
@noodles:
You are aware that that Dante's Inferno "protest" was a PR stunt, right?
http://www.gamepolitics.com/2009/06/05/dante039s-inferno-protest-e3-was-staged-ea
Posted by: SerenGoch | June 21, 2009 9:59 PM
The NHS in Britain spends 40 million pounds a year on hospital chaplains. What with all these amazing miracle cures, I'm sure that's a much more sensible use of the money than spending it on actual medical stuff.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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June 21, 2009 10:01 PM
Eric and Eagleton may believe in a different kind of god, but most people believe in The Big Guy In The Sky (TBGITS) complete with flowing white beard, white robes, halo, and choirs singing endless hosannas to keep him company. TBGITS is also a self-centeredm sadistic bully who'll kick your ass forever if you screw up one time. All in all, TBGITS has the emotional maturity of a spoiled five year old.
It certainly doesn't say much for the goddists that they feel the need to worship a selfish, sadistic bully.
Posted by: Larry | June 21, 2009 10:03 PM
@118,
Ditto, my friend. I, too, have wondered long and hard about the WHY. Just cannot comprehend when there has never been a sane reason to bekieve. I find life to be so much easier by believing in REALITY.
Posted by: Mobius | June 21, 2009 10:10 PM
Obviously, PZ, that communion wafer gave you magical powers over iced tea.
I'm jealous.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | June 21, 2009 10:14 PM
The NHS in Britain spends 40 million pounds a year on hospital chaplains.
...And millions of brits pray "god save the queen" on a regular basis. So far it's working. Putting "in god we trust" on the dollar hasn't helped it against the euro, though.
Posted by: Laura | June 21, 2009 10:30 PM
This one hits home with me. My elderly mother had a medical emergency in a restaurant recently. Long story short: She was rapidly losing blood from a PICC line gone horribly wrong and didn't know it.
The waitress noticed it first. The waitress who, I might add, was an Emergency Medical Technician. She had the restaurant manager call an ambulance, dashed to her car for her medikit and took care of my Mom until the ambulance arrived. She managed to slow the bleeding so that Mom didn't lose consciousness and then spoke with the EMS personnel who took her to the hospital.
My siblings, my Mom and my Dad all insist that my Mom had what they call "a god moment." God put that EMT in that restaurant just to take care of Mom until the ambulance got there. They are adamant about this, and when I suggest that the whole thing was a very fortunate coincidencte, some of them are actually offended. I keep telling them that to attribute the care Mom received to god and not to the quick thinking and training of the EMT and the ambulance personnel minimizes their effort. But they will accept nothing else.
Here's the rub: They are all EMTs as well. One is a paramedic. It's staggering to me that they themselves would say that the EMT's presence was god-related at all.
It seems to me that god gets a hell of a lot of credit for work that people do.
Posted by: Gruesome Rob | June 21, 2009 10:30 PM
This is good for a laugh
Posted by: Wowbagger, OM | June 21, 2009 10:37 PM
I can't begin to grasp the logic of that. Why, if God was intent on keeping her alive, did he allow the problem to occur in the first place? Also, why does God provide handy EMTs for some people and not others?
There's just no way I can make it make sense, unless the god involved is not the god as the Christians define him but is either limited in capacity (i.e. not omnipotent) or capricious in his favours (i.e. doesn't actually love everyone equally).
Posted by: keri | June 21, 2009 10:41 PM
this reminds me of that horrible book 90 Minutes in Heaven which my mom has been telling everyone she encounters that they absolutely must read. The author claims to have been dead for 90 minutes, because that's how long it was between the first paramedic looking at him and his injuries from a wreck and thinking "there's nothing we can do for this guy" and another guy coming along and saying "wait, actually, he's still alive?!" - and the author claims he came back to life because of a guy who stopped and prayed and sang over him. (After ascending into heaven and then coming back, which seems awfully heretical to me, because isn't he saying that he's like jesus, in a way?)
I haven't actually read the book, but I've heard my mom tell the story a zillion times, and I've looked it up on the internet, and it's just amazing that people blindly trust that the dude was actually fully dead for ninety minutes, yet is now capable of doing a lecture circuit. All thanks to prayers.
Posted by: Rick R | June 21, 2009 10:54 PM
#140- "But Mr Rubber persists in harboring feelings for me, and recently a number of those I cared for have died in mysterious circumstances and turned up on the dinner table roasted and served with mint sauce and mashed potatoes."
You mean, he can COOK too???
***swoon***
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 21, 2009 11:09 PM
"You mean, he can COOK too???"
Oh yes, he is a very good cook. He is currently trying out for the forthcoming series of Top Chef, believing (correctly, I think) that large bald men enjoy a particular advantage. His specialty dish is a mutton sausage and mountain oyster stew he calls "The Smoggy".
Posted by: Laura | June 21, 2009 11:20 PM
Wowbagger@150:
Exactly. I am stunned by the illogic every time the incident comes up in conversation. How can a person or people (all of whom are otherwise very smart) function do removed from reality?
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 21, 2009 11:33 PM
Wowbaggy@150
I believe fervently that God always has a plan, no matter how hard it might be to understand it at the time.
For example, when I was shut in a cell with Floyd Rubber and became the object of his frustrations and cache of viagra, I discovered what it was really like to have to be utterly submissive to a much more powerful being. This experience has given me a much clearer perspective on the true nature of a Christian's submissive relationship with God.
Posted by: GMacs | June 21, 2009 11:41 PM
In solemn and heartfelt tribute and supplication to the Greek pantheon
Fuck that noise. This was obviously the work of Brigit (the goddess not the Saint--not that there's really a difference).
Posted by: Abber | June 22, 2009 12:21 AM
If my butt ever moves out of this Lazy Boy chair, that'll be a miracle too. Or is the intelligently designed chair that we should praise as a miracle? Either way, don't even consider sending the Catholic Church over because I'll be damned if I'm moving for anyone. Well, unless they have some particularly good holy wine...
In all seriousness though, I'd like to thank the Catholic Church. You guys make me laugh.
Posted by: Citizen of the Cosmos
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June 22, 2009 1:05 AM
raven #43
God works in mysterious ways. Evil, mysterious ways, probably for his own amusement.
Posted by: Nominal Egg | June 22, 2009 1:08 AM
Gruesome Rob @142:
I guess you missed noodles @ 60:[emphasis mine]
Posted by: Nominal Egg | June 22, 2009 1:17 AM
That's because the Euro is newer than the motto on the dollar, and the Euro was specifically designed (by Socialists!) to be immune to that particular mojo.Posted by: blf | June 22, 2009 1:45 AM
Nah, the real reason is the euro is the Vatican's currency. Doesn't need any silly McCarthy-era motto. Instead, it's used at the main bunker of one of the predominating cults dedicated to enriching themselves by peddling young children and her fiction. Apparently blessed by the magic sky dog herself! The cultist wouldn't use a heathen currency, would they? Would they?
Posted by: articulett | June 22, 2009 1:58 AM
I can read the thoughts of people in remote locations from all over the globe... I'm doing now... alert the pope!
Posted by: DLC | June 22, 2009 2:31 AM
Ahh yes. the medic's lament: when the patient dies it's my fault, and when he lives it's god's fault.
Posted by: strangebrew | June 22, 2009 3:36 AM
2#...Jadehawk..
"RCC getting a bit desperate these days, huh?"
Absolutely!
After some relatively disheartening press recently...seems the RCC are trying to cheer themselves up a tad.
A bit of woo and giving the faithful a miracle seems as good a distraction as they can manage at the moment...
It always worked in the past...
Truly pathetic in their desperation are they not?...insufferable prigs never learn to hold their arrogance...ignorance and stupidity in check...they just cannot help themselves!
That's what happens when the hard of thinking believe in utter 'bullshite'...they tend to make fools of themselves over and over again...and do not even realise it!
Posted by: garyb50
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June 22, 2009 4:00 AM
The miracle will be if this family doesn't have to file for bankruptcy when the insurance doesn't cover all that non-prayer stuff.
Posted by: Citizen of the Cosmos
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June 22, 2009 4:28 AM
You could try public health insurance, if it's not more important to avoid being seen as a "socialist" than to save lives. ;)
Posted by: Petter | June 22, 2009 4:48 AM
OMG. Here I wrote a post about asking PZ and his followers to show a little more respect to people of faith, and instead more jerks grow up like Solidago Canadensis. I appologize for not enjoying people being bad ambassadors for us scientists.
Fortunately jerks are not always sticking to the best ESS, so be it hereditary it will hopefully decrease in the next generations.
Good luck
Posted by: kevinj | June 22, 2009 5:23 AM
leaving aside surely a proper miracle would have been to prevent him having the accident it always strikes me as god (or random saint) is a bit lazy.
Surely it wouldnt be to much effort to appear to the medical staff and let them know it is all in hand and that they can go and treat someone else instead.
Would remove any confusion about it being the prayers that did the job or not.
Posted by: strangebrew | June 22, 2009 5:56 AM
167# Petter.
"OMG. Here I wrote a post about asking PZ and his followers to show a little more respect to people of faith"
Only an obdurate and inane troll could equate contributors to a successful blog as 'followers' to the author of said blog!
'Followers' only occur when the collective IQ drops below triple figures in other words when critical analysis hits terminal ignorance.
With the best will in the world, or even the most biased kant, that rather hysterical claim or epithet cannot be levelled either at Pharyngula, the contributors, with few exceptions obviously (law of averages and all that), or PZ Myers.
And people of 'faith' who lie and prevaricate and refuse to accept reality over a mythological fairy tale do not deserve respect, rather pity and condolences for a 'belief' brought on by some unfortunate personal or peer inspired smelly brain fart that contaminated all in nose distance of the perpetrator!
Respect has to be earned...these folk deserve the pointing and the laughing...total bloody imbeciles the lot of 'em!...
Posted by: Nasikoman
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June 22, 2009 6:36 AM
Vaulter hits head, lives
Medicine, not miracle
God can't catch for shit
Posted by: Carlie | June 22, 2009 6:38 AM
Here I wrote a post about asking PZ and his followers to show a little more respect to people of faith"
1.Readers, not followers.
2.It's not people being mocked, it's ideas. Unless, that is, a person is so tied up in his or her ideas that they can't see the difference. Or unless those ideas cause the person to act in ways that are mockable. You want to be respected, act respectable.
3.I wonder if God is so powerful he can make a disease that even he's not immune to?
Posted by: Michelle R
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June 22, 2009 6:40 AM
Ergh. I audibly groaned when I read this... Doctors never get the credit they deserve. What a job. They're tough folk. Patients always thank god. They never thank the damn DOCTOR!
Posted by: Carlie | June 22, 2009 6:49 AM
Also to keep in mind is that saying "it was a miracle" is a way of doctors to remain modest, albeit a bad one. How many people are really comfortable with saying "Yeah, I kick ass, don't I?" when telling a family the good news that their relative just pulled through? Especially when the family has just started saying "Thank god, hallelujah!" at them???? Talk about looking like an egotistical ass. I bet most cases of the "but the doctor said it was a miracle!" was just the doctor being polite, while inwardly seething about their years spent in med school and the patient's gore they still have to scrub out from under their fingernails later (metaphorically speaking).
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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June 22, 2009 7:43 AM
You want respect, give respect. Until you give us the same respect you are demanding, including acknowledging your faith is irrational, you will not get any. We will follow your lead.Posted by: Steamshovelmama | June 22, 2009 7:51 AM
*headdesk*
I went out in my garden, yesterday. I got sweaty and sore pulling up weeds. My garden is now weed free. Call the Vatican - it's a miracle!
I was an emergency medical nurse for nearly twenty years. In my experience medical bods use the word "miracle" in the loose, metaphorical sense that some physicists use spiritual language. The Doc really means, "we didn't expect him to survive. He's *really* surprised us." Which happens quite a lot in trauma.
Actually... that's what a Doc in the UK would mean. As this is the States I suppose there's a higher possibilty that the guy meant it literally...
Posted by: David | June 22, 2009 8:46 AM
The Christian will always say,"Yes doctors,nurses and other medical professionals saved Kear from death,but it was God working through the medical professionals that saved Kear.
Posted by: David | June 22, 2009 8:51 AM
The Christian will always say,"Yes doctors,nurses and other medical professionals saved Kear from death,but it was God working through the medical professionals that saved Kear.You see logic and reason will never prevail with the believer.Also you'll notice that if Kear hadn't survived God would never had been discredited.Belivers would have made up some lame excuse.
Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter | June 22, 2009 8:54 AM
Where, once Churches taught the faithful the orthodox beliefs they MUST hold and why, today most of the religious pick and choose their beliefs like a diner at the Golden Corral buffet loads his plate. Whatever looks good, feels good - that's what they believe.
So "miracles" has become a label sloppily applied to ANY positive outcome that a)you really like and b)shows you are a good Christian, giving thanks to God.
As I said previously, in the Bible, miracles were always to serve God's purposes, not mans - but that thinking has gone the way of the hoopskirt.
Smoggy, is Floyd a Mormon? Perhaps we could accomodate him.....especially if he can cook. I really love lamb, and I have a great recipe for tortierre, made with pork and rabbit.
Posted by: Silver Fox | June 22, 2009 8:56 AM
Here's a little summary of what happened:
Chase crushes his skull and is brought to the hospital.
Family/friends pray.
Doctors tell family Chase is probably going to die from surgery/infection despite their best efforts.
Family/friends pray and ask for anointing of the sick.
Doctors "stunned" when Chase walks out of the hospital with near complete recovery. Neurosurgeon says "it's a miracle".
Family prays and gives thanks.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 22, 2009 9:07 AM
Post hoc ergo propter hoc
Pretty much in line with your normal inability to separate your fantasy from reality, SF.
No evidence whatsoever that praying did anything for his recovery, where we can point to medical procedures that did.
Posted by: bilsemon | June 22, 2009 9:59 AM
Here's my answer to all issues of prayer around healthcare:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm
Why won't god heal amputees?
Posted by: bilsemon | June 22, 2009 10:05 AM
Here's my answer to all issues of prayer around healthcare:
http://whywontgodhealamputees.com/god5.htm
Why won't god heal amputees?
Posted by: tsg | June 22, 2009 10:23 AM
My daughter had to be put on a heart-lung machine when she was born. She survived and is completely healthy. Most people say "it's a miracle" when I tell them what happened. If it happened twenty years ago, she dies. Science saved her life. God tried to kill her.
Posted by: strangebrew | June 22, 2009 10:25 AM
179# silver Fox
"Doctors tell family Chase is probably going to die from surgery/infection despite their best efforts."
A very severely injured patient with possible brain ...spine and internal injuries is not likely to give the Doctors the optimism to declare...'oh a slight headache for a couple of days nothing to worry about!' in the Family room of an ER unit...
They must urge caution in all diagnosis...if they did indeed declare 'full recovery'...or 'not life threatening' and the patient died...then they would be sued to Armageddon and back!
That kid was badly ....terribly injured...that he did survive is much more a testament to swift skilful medical intervention and know-how then to any mumbling to some personal delusional sky fairy.
Posted by: Ouchimoo | June 22, 2009 10:42 AM
Yeah, I can't wait until science heals amputees. That will be one of god's miracles too. And then he will no longer hate amputees. :\
Posted by: Stu
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June 22, 2009 10:52 AM
Neurosurgeon says "it's a miracle".
Ah. Well, that's alright then. Convinced me!
Posted by: raven | June 22, 2009 10:55 AM
You are not a scientist. Stop lying. Your grammar, spelling, logic, and word usage are at the level of a highly religious moron. I'll pray for you to leave your cave of darkness, mental fog, lies, and hate.
Petter, time to pull out the xian default.
"All you atheistic, pseudointellectual, cannibalistic scientists are going to hell forever." {insert favorite death threats here.}
Posted by: ??? | June 22, 2009 11:04 AM
canonize me
If you visit one of those Civil War-era forts, I'm sure they would be glad to shoot you out of a cannon. Make sure you wear a helmet though.
Posted by: raven | June 22, 2009 11:08 AM
Respect is earned, not demanded. Why would anyone respect xians these days? I used to be one and left rather than be associated with such a group of malevolent, destructive idiots. A few suggestions.
1. Stop sponsoring and supporting domestic xian terrorism and bombing and killing institutions and people you don't like.
2. Stop the silly War on Science. This is the basis of modern western civilization and the basis for US leadership in such. It is equivalent to cutting off one's legs rather than see reality for what it is.
3. Stop trying to overthrow the US government and head on back to the Dark Ages. Death Cult fundies openly hate the USA. Many normal people like living in a democracy with freedom and progress, material and social.
4. For you in particular. Stop lying and being stupid. If you can, which is doubtful. Try praying and try finishing your high school diploma. See which one works the best.
Posted by: Stu
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June 22, 2009 11:11 AM
Fortunately jerks are not always sticking to the best ESS, so be it hereditary it will hopefully decrease in the next generations.
Yeah, and fuck you too.
Posted by: Nominal Egg | June 22, 2009 11:28 AM
I think "Petter" would be better off with less petting and more reading.
Posted by: Brownian, OM
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June 22, 2009 11:34 AM
Anytime you guys wanna stop impeding human rights (as a show of good faith of course), we'll cut you some slack.
Ball's in your court.
Posted by: Brownian, OM
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June 22, 2009 11:52 AM
Here's an example, Petter.
Some kindly, undoubtedly 'moral' theist in Maine is baldly lying to garner signatures on a petition to repeal the same sex marriage law. She's telling people the petition is actually in support of same sex marriage.
And you people want respect?
As far as I'm concerned, it's a testament to the actual morality of the GLBT lobby (as opposed to the fake self-interested piety theists tend to specialize in) that they haven't gone all Inquisition on your asses.
Posted by: tsg | June 22, 2009 11:55 AM
@167
Act like an ass and then play the victim for being treated like one. How Christian.
Posted by: GMacs | June 22, 2009 12:36 PM
I used to use "miracle" figuratively, but then Christians started trying to use it as proof I should believe whenever I used it.
As for respecting Christians: I knew these two girls, one a very Christian girl, the other a non-observant Sikh from Kuwait (Indian ethnic). The first time I met them, I was an agnostic, and we got to talking about spiritual shit. The Sikh girl started talking about some guy who was like a modern day Jesus: performing miracles; rising from the dead; saying he was salvation, or whatever. He wrote books and was documented by modern communication technologies. Christian girl says "well, I'm a bit suspicious of him becaus [blah, blah, false prophets]".
Until Christians can respect other crazy stuff, especially stuff slightly more credible than their own shit, no. I don't see any reason non-believers should treat them with any respect.
Posted by: Lee Picton | June 22, 2009 12:37 PM
When the husbeast had his heart attack (the one the cardiologists call "the widow maker'), he did it right in front of me. What a miracle I just happened to be there! It took about 10 seconds to realize his faceplant was not a regular ALS fall. What a miracle! When I called 911, they answered immediately. What a miracle! The paramedics arrived in less than 10 minutes. What a miracle! A team of seven miraculously did their jobs in record time. The hospital ER had the heart attack room ready and waiting for him when he arrived (I got used to being in room 3 a lot). What a miracle! One of their ace cardiac surgeons was on call and available. What a miracle! He popped in a stent and stabilized the husbeast until he could be transferred to a specialty heart hospital to get more stents. The husbeast was home in three days as if nothing had happened. My former DIL, an ER nurse said that I had the great good fortune to be in Maryland, which has the finest trauma response in the country. If any one thing in the chain had not worked perfectly, the husbeast would not have survived, starting with the fall. Something as simple as my chatting with a neighbor ourside for a few minutes would have been fatal for him. Was the husbeast's guardian angel out for a beer when he collapsed? Arrghhh, but fundies make me sick.
Posted by: ThirtyFiveUp | June 22, 2009 12:47 PM
Hypatia's Daughter and Smoggles
Do you have a gift registry?
Will there be tortierre, made with pork and rabbit at the reception?
Are we all invited? Can we observe the validation of the marriage?
Rev. BigDumbChimp, can't wait to see you in your robes.
Posted by: Alexis
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June 22, 2009 12:51 PM
I was just thinking that if Saul of Tarsus (who would soon change his name to Paul)had had the treatment on the left after his fall from a horse which apparently caused some temporal lobe damage, xtianity as we know it would never have arisen.
Posted by: Redwood Rhiadra | June 22, 2009 1:37 PM
This reminds me of a plane accident a couple of years ago - plane gets hit by lightning, badly damaged, skilled pilots safely land it, and instead of praising the pilots, everyone is praising God for saving the plane. If God had any hand in the accident, it was obviously the lightning strike, not the landing.
Posted by: tsg | June 22, 2009 1:48 PM
"... and thank you for sending Lisa to save us from the bug you sent."
-- Rod Flanders
Posted by: strangebrew | June 22, 2009 1:51 PM
199# Redwood Rhiadra
"skilled pilots safely land it, and instead of praising the pilots, everyone is praising God for saving the plane."
Some totally unrelated nest of deluded xian vermin tried the same trick on the Hudson river ditching...but 'Sully' never flinched a muscle...and never played their game of agreeing with them...for that they started to question his earlier decisions and maybe he made tactical errors....possibly could have made Peterboro...yadda yadda yadda!...they do not like their delusion being ignored do they...cretins!
Posted by: Llelldorin | June 22, 2009 2:11 PM
You know, I wish they'd go the other way, and remove the "magical" part of the term "miracle."
If they defined "miracle" as "everyone doing exactly the right thing in the right order under enormous pressure to save a life," they'd have miracles to spare. The term could even be used in a quasi-secular way--"we all remembered that chaplain who had his head screwed on straight, and could just imagine him chewing us out if we wasted time panicking instead of getting the guy to the hospital."
It'll never, ever happen, of course, because for some reason lots of people can't find competent people doing their jobs to be impressive enough without adding magic, too. It's a shame, because in an odd way the very human system set up in your left column ought to be astonishing enough for anyone. (Think about it! Hundreds of years of human knowledge and collectively decades of training all suddenly focused and saved a guy who would otherwise have died. That's remarkable! You don't need a freaking spell to make it more so!)
Posted by: Fred the Hun
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June 22, 2009 3:40 PM
PZ @ 6,
Does it look like this one?
http://www.globalcraftsb2b.com/catalog/images/santa-gourd-large.jpg
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 22, 2009 4:13 PM
Dearest Hypatia—my hellbound heathen honey—Floyd says he'll be whatever you want him to be EXCEPT a Mormon. Apparently their magic underwear gives him excruciating jock itch. He also says he'll cook anyone, anytime, anywhere, anyhow--just say the word. Apparently in the Rubber family Christian baby is considered a particularly delicious wedding delicacy.
Thank you for your kind enquiry over-50 @197. Yes we do have a gift registry. But I wouldn't follow the link at work unless you are a born again Bible-believing Christian in a stable heterosexual marriage who only does it with the lights out. Please order everything in extra-large size, and in multiples of ten.
I will wait with impatience until we are united in the bonds of Christian love, Hypatia my dearest damned dumpling.
Smoggles
PS I was sorry to hear about your mother's misfortune. I understand she was quite good at counting. I think she may have known my father, Xerxes Batzrubble. He was a good man and a serial killer. They executed him a year or two before I was born.
Posted by: James Birkett | June 22, 2009 4:54 PM
Prof Myers,
The revelation that you drink Lipton's tea leaves me concerned for your well-being. I'm quite confident that even in the coffee culture of America it should be possible to obtain tea of a drinkable standard. You're missing out on a good thing if you're reduced to drinking that grey excuse for a brew.
A few suggestions regarding decent brand name teas:
-Whittards
-Twinings
-PG Tips
-Yorkshire Tea
--An Opinionated Englishman.
PS: keep up the good work.
Posted by: Knockgoats | June 22, 2009 5:05 PM
If you visit one of those Civil War-era forts, I'm sure they would be glad to shoot you out of a cannon. - ???
Indeed: it's very hard to get people of the right calibre these days.
Posted by: Carlie | June 22, 2009 5:16 PM
Smoggy, I don't think I even want to know where you found such a store at which to register. Can I assume that one of your favorite items is this one? The name makes it sound like it's about evolution.
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 22, 2009 5:47 PM
Carlie, in truth I find evolution a disgusting idea, but Hypatia-dottir will take a dozen (boxes).
If you want something sensual for me, then this would be sheer magic! (Please follow this link if you are easily offended).
As you see, you can undress your beloved and get friendly at the same time. Some of my uncles invented it. They'll be very rich when they get out of prison.
Posted by: Flex | June 22, 2009 5:49 PM
To Llelldorin,
I've always thought one of the most lyrical bits of Chesterton's prose was the encounter in "The Man who was Thursday." between the anarchic poet, Gregory, and the poet of respectablity, Syme.
Mmmm. Now I have the need to go read it once again. And this atheist offers no apologies for loving of this overtly Christian book, the surrealism is simply that enjoyable.
Posted by: windy | June 22, 2009 5:52 PM
A few suggestions regarding decent brand name teas:
I don't think those brands are very easy to find in the US. (Maybe some British tea companies are still a bit wary of operating there, after that last incident?)
He can probably find some Bigelow Tea or Tazo, but the latter might be a bit too wooy with their "certified tea shamans"
Posted by: bastion of sass | June 22, 2009 5:55 PM
Knockgoats @#206 wrote:
Howitzer relevant?
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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June 22, 2009 6:14 PM
not available in America. but then, if PZ wants good tea, he shouldn't take advice from a country where they put MILK in their tea.
for good teas, go here. I just blew half my paycheck on restocking my tea supplies :-p
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 22, 2009 6:23 PM
A pox on your filthy atheist tea, here is tea for true believers.
Posted by: Carlie | June 22, 2009 6:25 PM
Twinings is everywhere.
I use Stash for my tea-related needs, although their catalog seems to be taken over more and more with other fluff as the years go by.
Posted by: Wirelizard | June 22, 2009 8:57 PM
Stash, despite the wooishness of some of their herbal stuff (I can't call it tea, it ain't) makes incredibly good Earl Grey. Especially the Double Bergamont Earl Grey, lovely stuff.
Nearly every morning, Earl Grey tea converts me to coherence! A miracle, to be sure!
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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June 22, 2009 9:04 PM
Earl Grey is a bit too bit too bitter for me (and it makes the boyfriend throw up), so we usually have milder black teas. Nothing in the world can beat a good cup of Darjeeling tea though...
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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June 22, 2009 9:27 PM
Right now, in my tea canister, can be found Irish Breakfast, Earl Grey, Darjeeling, and Russian Country teas, all from Harney & Sons. Good, reasonably priced tea is available in the US.
Posted by: Carlie | June 22, 2009 9:29 PM
Especially the Double Bergamont Earl Grey, lovely stuff.
Oh my, yes. I also love their chai spice - it's good enough to drink straight. Although I must admit, one of the reasons I still use them primarily is that a few of their teas are available at my local grocery.
Posted by: Phledge | June 22, 2009 9:37 PM
Oh, I can get Twinings and PG Tips at my neighborhood Albertson's. It's very available, at least on the West Coast. Also, I was shocked, SHOCKED at how yummy tea with milk is. I always thought my sister took her tea that way because she's a wimp.
Posted by: Omphaloskepsis | June 22, 2009 10:23 PM
Something similar happened to me on the bus a few years ago. A man suffered a grand mal seizure, banged his head and split his lip on the metal back of the seat, then slumped over so that the seat was cutting off his airflow. While I struggled to keep him upright so he wouldn't choke (he was very tall and very very heavy and I'm a rather small person) two women were running around the bus screaming that he was possessed by demons and that we all needed to pray because this was a sign of the end times.
After the paramedics arrived and escorted him off, the two women sat down and had a nice chat for the next ten minutes about their best buddy Jesus and how the Bible tells you everything.
Seems the Bible should be bound with a few basic first aid hints, eh? If those two ninnies had been all the help that man got, he'd be dead. Lucky for him a soulless, godless, arrogant, baby-eating atheist was on the bus that day.
Posted by: Aquaria | June 23, 2009 4:59 AM
I don't think those brands are very easy to find in the US. (Maybe some British tea companies are still a bit wary of operating there, after that last incident?)
Twinings is readily available here in America; it's extremely popular even here in Texas. You can readily find it even in small towns like McAllen, and that's a town of 70K. It's been available there since I first moved there in the 90s. Then again, the market was HEB, which is all over South TX.
In larger cities, the Asian markets are gold mines for tea of all varieties. I've seen the Yorkshire and P&G varieties in just about every Middle Eastern or Hindu market here in San Antonio. There's also a variety called Typhoo that's intrigued me for a while now, but I haven't gotten around to buying it yet.
Posted by: Sitakali
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June 23, 2009 6:26 AM
Yeah, but if Kear's family had prayed to the Flying Spaghetti Monster, he wouldn't have gotten into the accident at all. His Noodlyness can go back in time and prevent things from ever happening. So many things haven't happened because of prayer!
Posted by: Naked Bunny with a Whip
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June 23, 2009 8:00 AM
@205: Suggesting that one's preferred food/music/book/religion is objectively superior to someone else's is inordinately self-centered.
Posted by: John Phillips, FCD
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June 23, 2009 8:45 AM
Aquaria, Typhoo is good if you like a standard tea. Though for a good strong standard tea, given a choice, I prefer PG Tips myself, probably because it is the tea I grew up with :).
Posted by: htwilson | June 23, 2009 12:54 PM
I wrote a poem about the "Hudson River Miracle" (where ace pilot Sully landed in the water), which is kind of like this story. Enjoy.
Posted by: Henry | June 23, 2009 12:56 PM
I wrote a poem about the "Hudson River Miracle" (where ace pilot Sully landed in the water) which is kind of like this. Enjoy.
Posted by: Let's get circular | June 23, 2009 1:39 PM
Thank God those doctors didn't believe in God and studied medicine so Chase could be saved.
Posted by: Everbleed | June 23, 2009 4:00 PM
Hey Petter!
You ignorant dick-head. You low life, bottom feeding, scum sucking piece of crap. You are so stupid you make worms seem smart. And they are... smarter than you.
So now that I have insulted you and called you names and made you cry, sue me why don't you? Then I can call your lawyer an ignorant dick-head because any lawyer that would take your money to sue me or PZ is either; a)an ignorant dick-head or b)a crook... or c)both. (c is overwhelmingly the likely option)
So sue away Petter, you half wit dumb ass.
(Wow PZ, that really is cathartic! I'll have to do this again some time.)
Posted by: Alison | June 23, 2009 6:19 PM
One of my favorite parts of this story never got mentioned!
In order to verify that the miracle was indeed performed by the proposed sainthood candidate, the crack investigative team from the vatican is going to have to prove that nobody prayed to someone else who already IS a saint! If they find that a prayer was made to an established undead worker of miracles who specializes in, say, sports-related injuries, or swollen brain fixing, or even one who has a building named after him nearby, the miracle could be attributed to that fella. That would mean not only that the prayers everyone directed towards Kapaun was completely wasted, but that God liked the person who prayed to the other guy better than everyone else, too.
Posted by: Form&Function | June 24, 2009 12:40 AM
I really love Upton Tea Imports. Fast shipping, informative website, and lots of high-quality teas. The double bergamot Earl Grey is fabulous!
Posted by: Strakh | June 24, 2009 2:40 AM
PZ:
I run into this almost every night I work in my ER.
The last one was a really, really, really, I mean REALLY bad case of ... heartburn. The family was around the bed of the 35 year old pt, and all were sobbing. I am not exaggerating here, they were SOBBING. They brought in a 'Shaman' or whatever the heck he was, and he moaned and waved beads (BEADS! I kid you not!) around her to "Save her, Effendi!"
(In order to offer 'Cultural Diversity' we HAVE to allow this disgusting crap.)
This bead waving was done after I gave her a magic mouthwash (Maalox and Viscous Lidocaine).
Her pain went away.
Just like that.
Was it the beads, or the Magic Mouthwash?
You can guess which answer the family gave!
They completely ignored the MD and me and showered praise upon the humbug.
I tell ya, it's enough to gag a maggot.
Posted by: gdlchmst | June 24, 2009 2:57 AM
@#231
I find perverse humor in you post.
Posted by: brad | June 24, 2009 5:53 PM
Wow.
You must all be some happy people.
I've never seen so much "tolerance" in my life.
People seem to miraculously heal a lot after family members pray to saints and blesseds. Must be one of those crazy coincidences.
Look up the "Miracle of the Sun", witnessed by thousands, reported by the communist newspaper.
I guess it's just a rare sun-dog, appearing at the exact moment foretold, even though sun-dogs never occur in those type of weather conditions. Oh, it just be that convenient "mass hysteria". That's right.
Posted by: Dan | June 24, 2009 8:15 PM
Well, next time you're sick try praying to The Picard. His people vanish into thin air and even the walls obey his command!
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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June 24, 2009 8:21 PM
brad, that word "tolerance"; I somehow don't think it means what you think it means.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 24, 2009 8:23 PM
Thanks, I am!
Tolerance and respect are two completely different ideas.
Yes and when I don't step on on cracks my mother's back does not break.
post hoc ergo propter hoc
Communist?
Confirmation bias is not your friend.
Posted by: uriel1972 | June 26, 2009 5:26 AM
Perhaps people were praying for this kid to have an accident but more were praying for him to get better. Perhaps it's some kind of reality tv type popularity contest for The Big G. Ah not enough sleep I think.
Posted by: brad | June 26, 2009 11:35 AM
Yeah, the word "tolerance" obviously means insulting others' beliefs and acting like you're way too smart to believe in anything mystical or religious.
Too bad you simply worship the god "science". It's no different than all the people you make fun of.
Posted by: Maryville University | June 29, 2009 10:15 AM
Everyone has their own opinion on this sort of topic. It's tough to say who is right and wrong.
Posted by: Mark C | August 26, 2009 1:45 AM
**** People seem to miraculously heal a lot after family members pray to saints and blesseds. Must be one of those crazy coincidences. ***
Define "miraculously" and quantify "a lot" in statistical terms. Otherwise you're just some dummy blowing smoke out your ass.
*** Oh, it just be that convenient "mass hysteria". That's right. ***
Actually it's damned inconvenient. But unlike God, it's been definitely proven to exist.
Posted by: Rorschach | August 26, 2009 1:53 AM
@ 233,
People seem to miraculously
healdie a lot after family members pray to saints and blesseds. Must be one of those crazy coincidences.Fixed that for you.
Posted by: john@hotmail.com | September 14, 2009 2:38 PM
http://forums.nvidia.com/index.php?showuser=192678