Pharyngula

Posted by: Kevin (nyc) | June 9, 2009 9:53 PM

I like going to acupuncture....this little chinese lady does a few in my ear and then pokes around on my chest looking for tension going.. does this hurt.. and if I say yes she sticks a needle there.. and sometimes if I do or not.. she is looking for her points and nailing them...

here? here? ouch..bang.. it hurts for a second and goes away. she does my stomach then my knees...(cause they hurt)... the needles in the feet are the worst.

so after like 50 needles she puts the heat lamp on and the wierd chinese music..and I swear after a while I am floating and buzzing...go into a bit of a trance...

afterwards I have a spring in my step and feel great...

gotta do that again...

Posted by: Olorin | June 9, 2009 10:02 PM

I'm very skeptical myself. However, my youngest daughter, a family-practice doc in Minnesota, is trained in acupuncture and naturopathy. Her opinion is that the science behind it is junk, but nevertheless sometimes it works, and frequently makes the patients feel better in any event. She always uses it in addition to conventional treatments, never in place of.

Remember that medicine has always had a less solid relationship with experimental science than other disciplines. See Bowler & Morus, "Making Modern Science," Chapter 19, "Science and medicine."

Posted by: jimbo | June 9, 2009 10:06 PM

I was looking for some ibuprofen and stopped in at my local "organic" grocery story. In the aisles and aisles of literally thousands of vitamins, herbal remedies, homeopathic cures and aroma therapy items I couldn't find a single pain reliever.

I asked a clerk and she said that they didn't carry ibuprofen. I asked "Well do you at least have aspirin?" She rolled her eyes at me and said "sir we only stock *natural* products".

Posted by: Cuttlefish, OM | June 9, 2009 10:11 PM

I don't care for "alternative".
The reason is... I want to live.

Posted by: MadScientist | June 9, 2009 10:18 PM

How do I FEEL about quackery?

HULK SMASH!

Throw in a double-smash - the stupid poll only has a soft "I'm very skeptical" in place of the correct asnwer: "It's life-threatening BULLSHIT".

Posted by: Funnyguts | June 9, 2009 10:24 PM

Technically the first one is correct, but only because of that "traditional" Western medicine.

Posted by: Ben | June 9, 2009 10:27 PM

Ok, this is a little off-topic, but there's also a poll over on Newt Gingrich's web site asking whether Sotomeyer should be confirmed. It's about 3 to 1 against her right now. If you hate Newt Gingrich's "ethics" (or lack thereof) as much as I, you may just enjoy having a hand in trashing his poll.

http://newt.org/Default.aspx

Posted by: Joe B | June 9, 2009 10:54 PM

@11 It's better with the line before added in too

Alternative Medicine has either not been proven to work, or has been proven not to work.

You know what they call alternative medicine that's been proven to work? ... Medicine.

-Storm by Tim Minchin

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 9, 2009 11:03 PM

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It will put a spring in your step, a sheen on your coat, and pack lead in your pencil.

Special offer for Pharyngula readers to celebrate my release from jail, one gallon of BIBLE™ for $29.95.

While I can’t reveal it’s contents, the essential ingredient is powdered

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OUR MOTTO: ‘IF IT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR 40 MILLION SHEEP,

IT’S GOOD ENOUGH FOR YOU

TO ORDER PHONE SMOGGY OR FLOYD ON 0900 EWEJUICE

Posted by: Ichthyic | June 9, 2009 11:20 PM

best comment I saw there:

Moderation in all things. I take ginkgo biloba, but I can't for the life of me remember why.

LOL

Posted by: Katkinkate | June 9, 2009 11:31 PM

Smoggy Batzrubble!! What a character! :() Is it OK to nominate for an OM for shear entertainment quality?

Posted by: Dreamer | June 9, 2009 11:36 PM

Doesn't it depend upon the type of "alternative" medicine?

It encompasses so much!

Many herbs have measured pharmacological effects. May I mention willow bark? (Um, that's where aspirin comes from, for those who don't know.) Many herbs have studies to back them up for efficacy greater than placebo. Many do not. Gotta look for the studies.

Homeopathy? Let's see, not even the homeopaths can come up with a study proving it more effective than placebo! And it relies upon water having a MEMORY of the compounds put into it!

Acupuncture? I've read about it having measurable effects, but I'd imagine that's more from stimulating nerves with needles than redirecting "chi".

Chiropractic? I had back problems and carpal tunnel issues that a "snap, crackle, and pop" chiropractor (in sports medicine) fixed. Would I ask a chiropractor to adjust my "energy flows"? Um, no.

So, the survey needs another option, about researched and scientifically-proven treatments versus unproven quackery. "Alternative medicine" encompasses just about anything other than drug-company pills and surgery. Some is helpful, some is useless or harmful.

Posted by: Shadowin | June 9, 2009 11:41 PM

Sugar pills are known to work on occasion as well, and they're cheaper than those other alternative treatments!

Posted by: Aenthropi | June 9, 2009 11:48 PM

I do not want traditional, western medicine or traditional medicine from any direction. I want /modern/, western medicine.

Posted by: Katherine | June 9, 2009 11:53 PM

OK. This is a must. Download or somehow obtain the 'beat poem' Storm by Tim Minchin. It is a alternative format (to blog posts) which I think perfectly highlights the key points when looking into alternative medicine (and the attitudes which go with it).

The crux of it can be boiled down to:
By definition, Alternative Medicine has either not been proved to work, Or been proved not to work.
You know what they call "alternative medicine" that's been proved to work?
Medicine.

Posted by: HenryS | June 9, 2009 11:58 PM

Chiro is only marginally effective for lower back pain but nothing else.
********
Based on what?? Chiropractic refuses to evaluate their "treatments" using randomized trials or any type of outcome evaluation.

Posted by: Ichthyic | June 10, 2009 12:11 AM

Yes folks, this secret recipe, handed down from Batzrubble to Batzrubble, will heal every ill the flesh is heir to (and then some).

just to be clear, Batty, Floyd had nothing at all to do with this, right?

Posted by: Ichthyic | June 10, 2009 12:17 AM

Not that there's anything wrong with that.

Didn't say there was, necessarily.

OTOH, under certain circumstances it can cause grievous harm.

Imagine a placebo effect that makes a burst appendix "feel" better.

Which is the desired end, yes?

depends on the problem, yes?

Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 10, 2009 12:32 AM

Itchy @ 34

"just to be clear, Batty, Floyd had nothing at all to do with this, right?"

Oh yes he did! Floyd Rubber and I were released on the same day, and we've had a rapprochement of sorts. He says he can show me the ropes in the USA, if I take him on as a business partner. He's my "inside man" as it were (although thankfully no longer literally) and he's useful for sealing deals.

Heh... I thought he'd frighten customers off given that he's about seven foot tall, immensely fat, completely bald, and has skulls tattoed on his eyelids, but amazingly I sell a whole heap more product when he's there beside me.

Floyd's coming with me to visit my Australian cousin Ken in Petersburg NY. He says he'll get me a hog to ride. I've only ever ridden sheep before, but how different can it be?

All Glory to the Risen Savior!

Smoggy

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 10, 2009 12:35 AM

yes, I guess

Posted by: Aquaria | June 10, 2009 12:36 AM

Funny story: My Methuselahette great grandma lived next door to our small-town's chiropractor. One time I asked her what the word, meant, what was it? She leaned over and said, "That's a hole in the sky you throw money in, sugar."

I'd heard her say it lots of times, but, being five, metaphors were sometimes tough to grasp. So I asked my grandfather, and got an earful of cussing. Not at or about me, but about the fool chi-ree-pratter, and the bigger fools that believed him. You had to be there, and hear him go at it. Colorful is too bland a word to describe his use of language on such an occasion.

Posted by: Nominal Egg | June 10, 2009 12:41 AM

so after like 50 needles she puts the heat lamp on and the wierd chinese music..and I swear after a while I am floating and buzzing...go into a bit of a trance...

Sounds like endorphins to me (but I'm not a doctor).

Posted by: A. Noyd | June 10, 2009 12:55 AM

Sven DiMilo (#35)

Not that there's anything wrong with that.
I mean, the thing about a placebo efect is that patients people really do feel better. Which is the desired end, yes?

Only if their biggest complaint is the pain they get from dragging around their massive wallet full of cash since they'll get the placebo effect from an actual, effective treatment which, by definition, offers something beyond placebo.

Posted by: HenryS | June 10, 2009 1:02 AM

As part of the "Cultural Revolution", the Chinese Govt emphasized Acupuncture and traditional Chinese medicine. There was one story that made all of the US news media and that was a video of a woman having lung surgery using Acupuncture anesthesia. The video showed the surgeons working on her lung while she was awake, smiling, talking and drinking fluids. A few years later, the Chinese surgeon was in Boston talking about the surgery and the virtues of Acupuncture Anesthesia. This particular surgeon was very well known and respected. He had trained in the US in the 30's and had returned to China to do the first lung surgeries there.

About ten years after hearing him speak, I happened on a long letter to the editor written by that surgeon. He basically said the whole thing was a fraud. The patient's lung was scared to the inside of her chest, so the lung couldn't collapse and she was injected with a sh*t load of local anesthesia. The surgeon felt humiliated by what he had done but explained that his family was the leverage the govt used to guarantee his "good" behavior.

Posted by: Mary Mactavish | June 10, 2009 1:17 AM

It really depends on the "alternative." Some work, some work but should be better regulated, some barely work, some are horse crap. It's like asking, "Do you love the color orange?" I don't know, are we talking California poppies, 1967 VW bugs, or as glossy paint all over the inside of my tiny bathroom?

Posted by: MrFire | June 10, 2009 1:25 AM

@51:

What's with Bastyr's website? That puke-green color scheme...

Posted by: photon | June 10, 2009 1:51 AM

How do I feel about alternative medicine?

Exactly the same as I feel about alternative aeronautical engineering! ;)

Posted by: clausentum | June 10, 2009 2:21 AM

photon #54 : best LOL of the thread!

Posted by: Psychodiva | June 10, 2009 2:29 AM

why couldn't they have one that said-'It's crap and I advise my patients not to use the crap' ??

Posted by: flea | June 10, 2009 4:35 AM

Offtopic:

Click, click, you bastards:
http://scienceblogs.com/pharyngula/2009/04/id_really_like_to_win_an_ipod.php

Posted by: Mrs Tilton | June 10, 2009 6:11 AM

Uncephalized @1,

If there had been a "some of it might be promising someday if it was actually tested by scientists", I would have voted for that, but instead I went with "highly skeptical"

Aren't those just two different ways of saying the same thing?

Actually, I think even our host here is on record that some alternative therapies can, in principle, be useful. (If we're talking about herbal meds, it'd be surprising if some weren't at least somewhat effective; they're the raw materials of lots of real meds, after all.) But then the thing to do is subject it to proper testing. In the rare cases where there's something there, it should be developed, and in the more usual cases, researchers can be happy to know of one more area in which it would be wasteful to spend further money.

It's just that, if you've subjected an alternative therapy to rigourous testing on a sound scientific basis and shown it to be safe and effective, it's not really alternative any more, is it? And then it would be much less gratifying to use between sessions with the crystals and ear-candles.

Posted by: John Morales | June 10, 2009 6:36 AM

Mutt, cf. "Desecration for sale" in the left sidebar, under "recent posts".

Posted by: John Morales | June 10, 2009 7:10 AM

Denni:

I think many of the views presented here are oversimplified.

It isn't as if big pharma has our best interest at heart or as if the science used is above reproach [...]

You were saying something about oversimplification?

Posted by: John Morales | June 10, 2009 7:22 AM

Denni,

I take St. John's Wort for SAD, have done so for years. Although many studies have shown its efficacy for mild to moderate depression, it is still not standardised according to hyperforin content and I have to be careful to take the right extract or I'll know the difference in about three days.

I think 'Alternative medicine', in this context, is stuff that doesn't meet the criteria of evidence-based medicine - not stuff other than pre-packaged pills.
If you were taking homoeopathic pills for depression or doing Reiki, that would constitute alternative medicine.

Posted by: Epinephrine | June 10, 2009 7:39 AM

Not that there's anything wrong with that. I mean, the thing about a placebo efect is that patients people really do feel better. Which is the desired end, yes?

As others have mentioned, feeling better doesn't treat the cause, and can lead to worsening symptoms. It also encourages belief in miraculous cures, making it tougher for a doctor to get patients to use treatments that may be unpleasant, but work.

Also, http://cectic.com/137.html

Posted by: Caitlan | June 10, 2009 7:50 AM

Oh, wait: I was really hard on my knees learning to unicycle and the chiropractor put it right.

Posted by: John Morales | June 10, 2009 8:18 AM

Epinephrine, speaking of cectic...

http://cectic.com/176.html

Posted by: Don Martin | June 10, 2009 8:44 AM

The first comment asks, "How many people die after traditional treatments?"

I would imagine all of them do; the difficulty is pinning down the "when".

Posted by: BunnyTime | June 10, 2009 8:47 AM

I noticed that many of the comments mentioned BigPharma and that western medicine is all about money. Do they really think that those selling alternative treatments are making a killing? Last time I checked, alternative medicine isn't cheap.

Posted by: AJ Milne | June 10, 2009 9:01 AM

It's missing the option for:

Wait a minute. Perhaps she's right. Perhaps I've been wrong to blindly follow the medical traditions and superstitions of past centuries. Maybe we barbers should test these assumptions analytically, through experimentation and a "scientific method". Maybe this scientific method could be extended to other fields of learning: the natural sciences, art, architecture, navigation. Perhaps I could lead the way to a new age, an age of rebirth, a Renaissance!... Naaaaaahhh!

(/See also: 'A little bloodletting and some boar's vomit, and he'll be fine!')

Posted by: Itsnotallbad | June 10, 2009 9:20 AM

As a pharmaceutical chemist who worked amongst others for Bayer, Monsanto, Phizer, etc all my life I can tell you guys that many so called "western medicines" are in fact the real alternatives. Chemically reproduced copies of elements with medicinal properties from nature,... found in plants (herbs). Some people would call many herbs used in so called "herbal" medicine (I'm not referring to homoeopathy, which is quackery in my book, but specifically to so called herbs) "alternative", while they don't realize that Aspirine, for example, is just an alternative for the bark and leaves of the willow tree (rich in a substance called salicin) to relieve pain and fever.

I personally have a problem with the nearly Orwellian double-speak-kind-of-mindset that attempts to turn reality around and give synthetically produced elements made by chemical industries the aura that those are the "original" elements en the original natural ones the "alternative".

As a chemist who produced western medicine all his life I personally use herbal medicine whenever I can instead of synthetic alternatives, but that's just me. (Again, NOT homoeopathy, or other esoteric stuff for dreamers)

Posted by: BAllanJ | June 10, 2009 9:30 AM

I don't see why folk remedies would be popular if they were too ineffective.

If they were, they're now "medicine" (see discussion on aspirin above, or look up quinine). Some folk remedies may have had some slight reason to work before but not now... DO NOT put butter on a burn. That folk remedy may have worked a bit back when it wasn't uncommon to use calendula to colour butter, but I don't think anyone adds calendula to butter anymore.

Posted by: Kay | June 10, 2009 9:50 AM

Our daughter has asthma. When she was seven we took her to the doctor to have her tested for allergies. She did a skin test which showed allergies to cats and dogs (we had both)and dust.

A friend of mine does a weird type of therapy called CPK--it's a combination of chiropractic, "applied" kinesiology and vibrational something. He asked if he could treat her. We said "what the heck" because the treatment was non-invasive, free, and we were curious. We had to gather dander and hair from the cat and the dog and dust from the house in a plastic bag. He laid the bag on her chest when he treated her. It is really hard to explain what he did and would take more than a few paragraphs. My understanding of the theory behind the treatment is that different tissues vibrate molecularly at specific frequencies and he uses these frequencies to determine which tissues are having problems by tuning to the disruptions in their frequencies when the allergens are present and not present.

To make a long story short, we took her back to the doctor and had her tested again for allergies and she tested negative. The fix lasted for about a year. Incidently, he also treated another friend of ours at the same time for a dog allergy. She was going to stay for a weekend at her aunt's house (who had a dog) and was desperate to try anything to get relief because she always had a miserable time. After she was treated she went to her aunt's and had no problems the entire weekend--no nasal discharge or eye watering or asthma.

We didn't have our daughter treated again (mostly because our friend lived out of town but also because the treatment was abstract and weird) but we did take her to a respiratory physician who did accupuncture when she got older. That treatment also wore off after about a year.

Posted by: gypsytag | June 10, 2009 10:33 AM

Do you know what they call alternative medicine that has been proven to work?

MEDICINE!!!

Posted by: gf | June 10, 2009 11:05 AM

Given the ammount of nonsense currently found in 'mainstream' medicine, I think it's a bad idea for rationalists/materialists/scientists to try to lump it in to the science vs fantasy debate. There's still a lot of quackery that goes on at most people's doctor's offices.

Also, there are some natural remedies which work well: ginger for nausea (now confirmed in a trial of chemotherapy patients), lavender oil helps minor burns far more effectively than any cream I've ever tried. I don't think it makes sense to be instinctively opposed to 'alternative' medicine, rather, we should be trying to look at what the evidence shows in each instance.

Posted by: HandledTrivia | June 10, 2009 11:36 AM

9.5%
I think it's great used in conjunction with traditional Western medicine.
677 votes
3.5%
I'm a big believer and use alternative medicine therapies exclusively.
252 votes
86.6%
I'm very skeptical.
6,164 votes
0.4%
I don't know.
27 votes

Additionally, this comment on the page was entertaining:

How many people die after traditional treatments? People have an absolute RIGHT TO CHOOSE THEIR TREATMENT -- this is just about getting $$$
{"commentId":7532292,"threadId":"598442","contentId":"2909510","authorDomain":"sueadams"}
- blackhorses
- 7:48 pm EDT on Mon Jun 8, 2009

Posted by: AJ Milne | June 10, 2009 11:51 AM

Blog pimping: my long rant/reaction to this.

(/See also: 'Who's the barber, here?')

Posted by: gaypaganunitarianagnostic | June 10, 2009 11:54 AM

Mainstream doctors sometimes treat symptoms only.
Once tried a homeopathic pill for impotence - seemed to work -impotence responds to suggestion, or maybe the yohembi in the pill was not diluted to the vanishing point...
At a drugstore I saw activated charcoal labeled as a homeopathic remedy for flatus. Nothing homeopathic about it, either in the 'like cures like,' nor the dilute to vanishing sense.

Posted by: KemaTheAtheist | June 10, 2009 12:08 PM

endorphins being released? No.

Anytime your body experiences some kind of pain and trauma, you get a release of endorphins. A needle stick will do the same thing. If you're sticking multiple needles over your body and leaving them there is going to make your brain release endorphins to alleviate the pain.

Ever get a tattoo before? You get the same thing. You end up feeling mellow afterwards.

Posted by: Qwerty | June 10, 2009 2:22 PM

Time without any will heal most of our minor ailments. If you have a cold or stiff back, a few days rest without any medication and you can feel better.

I know that I feel better after a strenous work out at the gym and there is no medicine involved, but if I break a bone or feel a large lump under my skin, I am heading to a qualified physician.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM | June 10, 2009 4:09 PM

Mark Gisleson #101

I hate that the argument for alt comes down to personal anecdotes but my dad spent thirty years being a guinea pig for the Mayo Clinic. They never helped his psoriasis a bit. So when I got it I tried a very simple Chinese remedy that's actually been more effective than any ointment the Mayo Clinic ever prescribed. [email me if you're interested and no I'm not selling anything]

You hate how alt med arguments are anecdotal and then give an anecdote. As the Lost in Space robot would say: "Does not compute."

Posted by: Mark Gisleson | June 10, 2009 5:08 PM

Tis Himself: then maybe you would do me the honor of starting up a study regarding alt medicine and psoriasis. Given our profit-based approach to medicine, who pays for studies to see if vinegar and cayenne are as or more effective than expensive ointments and light therapy?

My father has suffered for decades from this affliction and I am doing better with alt medicine than he did with the Mayo Clinic. Instead of calling that anecdotal why don't we call it a case study? Do you have one to refute mine?

I'm not suggesting vinegar and cayenne will cure cancer, just that they work well on an hereditary skin condition that medical science has never had much luck with.

Posted by: A. Noyd | June 10, 2009 5:57 PM

Caitlan (#69)

I don't see why folk remedies would be popular if they were too ineffective.

Simple answer: People are stupid.

Slightly more complex answer: Our brains naturally emphasize coincidence and we don't tend to track and compare all possible cause and effect chains or do calculations for chance and error. This means that we are wrong a lot about what caused what. As social critters, we also put stock in the stories of people close to us. When three friends tell us they had amazing results from some folk remedy, we think that it must be effective. Combine this with the placebo effect and the tendency to get better no matter what, and you have your answer as to why wholly ineffective folk remedies can be popular.

~*~*~*~
Kay (#86)

My understanding of the theory behind the treatment is that different tissues vibrate molecularly at specific frequencies and he uses these frequencies to determine which tissues are having problems by tuning to the disruptions in their frequencies when the allergens are present and not present.

Wow, that sounds so sciency! Too bad it's just magical thinking dressed up in fancy terms and slathered in 99.8% pure bullshit.

Posted by: Darren S. A. George | June 10, 2009 7:37 PM

While it's true that many herbs have medicinal effects, and many modern drugs are derived from such herbs, I'd much rather take the synthetic equivalent than a bunch of herbs.

The pill is standardized- the pharma company that makes it is required to make sure that every pill contains the same quantity of active ingredient, and they all have the same inactive ingredients.

The herbal preparation contains a particular mass of a certain plant, but each plant is different- the one that was growing in the sun may have a lot more active ingredient than the one that was growing in the shade. Some of those plants may be have been growing by a Chinese roadside or in a windowbox by the coal-burning generator, and thus be chock-full of lead, arsenic, selenium, what-have-you. Icky. Also, some "natural pharma" companies have been known to spike their ineffective herbs with prescription meds to make them more effective. No thanks.

Posted by: A. Noyd | June 11, 2009 4:07 PM

A horde of anti-government, conspiracy whacko, anecdote-loving imbeciles has descended on the discussion thread for the poll a few days late, if anyone wants some chew toys.

Posted by: Liz | June 13, 2009 8:30 AM

I can't claim to fully understand the article, but here's something from the British Dental Journal looking at the uses of acupuncture in dentistry, which seems to indicate that it has practical and testable uses-
http://www.scribd.com/doc/6556942/Accupuncture-and-Dentistry

I prefer the idea of 'complimentary' medicine that works alongside modern medicine. And I can't argue with the idea that 'alternative' medicine that works is just 'medicine'.

Ginger is good for nausea, such as travel sickness; if you've overeaten then peppermint tea is useful; raspberry leaf tea reduces period pains (relaxes the smooth muscles in the abdomen to reduce the pain, rather than just covering it with an analgesic.).
But if there's anything more serious- get to a doctor!

If I have a sore throat I gargle with aspirin (and am very glad that I don't have to drink willow bark tea- tried it once, it's foul!), if it's tonsillitis I want penicillin.
But I do have a concoction that is very good for soothing a tickly cough based on a number of herbs including liquorice extract. Aspirin, I've found, doesn't do anything for those coughs, and antibiotics are not relevant.

I've tried homeopathy as well. Once I had a very bad, streaming cold. My nose was running for England. I tried some of my landlady's homeopathic stuff for dealing with cat and dog allergies, which in effect treats the same problem I was having (eyes watering, nose running etc).
After 10 minutes the problem was markedly improved, within half an hour of taking the tablets everything had dried up completely.
And in case anyone's wondering, I hadn't taken any other forms of medication, there were none around. Just the homeopathic stuff.
I don't know if it was a placebo effect or anything inherant in the tablets, but it had a marked physiological effect on me.

I prefer the idea of complimentary medicine, where modern and other forms of medicine work together.
Example- nausea from chemotherapy. Very unpleasant and won't do anything good for the patient's mood- and a positive outlook is a good thing full stop. A doctor could either prescribe another drug for the nausea, or suggest they try some ginger and see how that works.
It did wonders for a friend of mine going through chemotherapy for non-Hodgekinsons, and it was his doctor who suggested it, not me!