…and this is a 
A doctor in Nebraska, Dr. Leroy Carhart, has stepped forward and said he will train his staff to take over the important role lost when George Tiller was murdered. That's courage, and I applaud what he is doing. I hope more doctors take on this essential task.
That's the good news. The bad news? Look at what Nebraska Attorney General Jon Bruning, a fellow who is obligated by his position to support the law, had to say.
I'm disgusted and I'm saddened, and I hate it that he's here in Nebraska and I hate it that he's in America. I mean, this guy is one sick individual.
I hate it that the people who enable murder can be found in positions where they are supposed to promote justice.
Comments
Posted by: LanceR, JSG
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June 12, 2009 12:05 PM
**ashamed to be a Nebraskan**
You'd be amazed at the number of blood-thirsty, "nuke 'em 'til they glow, then shoot 'em in the dark", barbarians we have here. Well, maybe not amazed, but certainly saddened.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 12, 2009 12:13 PM
Somebody needs his teddy bear.
Posted by: Holbach
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June 12, 2009 12:15 PM
Bruning thinks he is one sick individual? I think anyone afflicted by religion is sick, and when that sickness is transposed into murdering another for a god that can do nothing to save the aborted fetus, then the sickness is even made more pernicious with murdering another whose mental god dictates. Bruning is aware that his god can do nothing against human cause, so he endorses the human factor which dominates.
Posted by: Seldon | June 12, 2009 12:18 PM
I think if you have serious personal problems with a law that is your duty to uphold, you should resign. Feel free to live in disgust, but you should not remain responsible for maintaining justice. Abortion is legal, deal with it.
Posted by: Ebo Tebo | June 12, 2009 12:21 PM
I live in Iowa but on the western side of the Missouri. Worked in Nebraska for far too long. These imbeciles, both govt. and the general public are .....well....I do not have the words to describe them in such a small area. Plus don't need my blood pressure to rise either. Let's just say I'd rather be back in Oregon!!
Posted by: MikeM | June 12, 2009 12:22 PM
He shouldn't just resign, he should be impeached. Attorneys General are supposed to uphold the law; when they refuse to do so, they are acting illegally.
All he's done is express an opinion? Wrong. He's shown prejudice, and that should be good enough. Grill him (in a legal sense) and find out if you can fire him, based on his answers.
Posted by: JAMSHED MOIDU | June 12, 2009 12:29 PM
GOOD NEWS: Evolution theory is collapsed all over the world, all of the european youth have started questionng the theory
BAD NEWS: There is no evidence from SCIENTIFIC community to support the religion DARWINISM
Posted by: DethB4DCaf
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June 12, 2009 12:29 PM
I think the very fact that this man is allowed to talk about his personal opinions^W^W^W^W^W^W^W^W issues^W^W^W^W^W^W failings from a formal position should be mentioned MUCH more loudly, maybe screamed from the rooftops, until this man realizes that his insignificant opinions not only don't matter but __should__ cost him his job...
Posted by: Newfie | June 12, 2009 12:32 PM
Maybe Bruning is just taking a populace stance in a conservative state? He'd like to be re-elected,so he feigns disgust? Could an atheist get elected in Nebraska? It sure ain't Pete Stark country.
Posted by: AlgaeGirl
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June 12, 2009 12:32 PM
So much for blind justice
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blind_justice_(concept)
Posted by: Citizen of the Cosmos
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June 12, 2009 12:34 PM
Still waiting for our species to grow up. Not going to happen for a while, huh?
Posted by: Troglodyte | June 12, 2009 12:34 PM
There's so many forms of bias in that news story, it's not even funny... how do you consider yourself a media outlet with crap like that? No chance to rebut for the doctor, at all, as an elected official makes ad hominem attacks on a doctor? Shameful.
Also, #7, I think you'll find plenty of people to argue you with you (read: explain to you why you're wrong), but this post has nothing to do with evolution.
Posted by: PixelFish | June 12, 2009 12:34 PM
Yeah, gee, what a sick thing for Doctor Carhart to help women through a dangerous pregnancy. I mean, it takes a really sick bastard to put his own life in danger to help somebody else.
I know why some people think abortion is squicky, but why they think it's their business to say somebody else can't undergo this LEGAL procedure to save their life, or alternately, improve/maintain the quality of their life, I have no idea.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 12, 2009 12:35 PM
FACTUAL NEWS: You DON'T HAVE A CLUE what you are talking about.
Posted by: mk | June 12, 2009 12:35 PM
Clearly there is still a long way to go before we defeat (democratically and non-violently) the American Taliban.
Posted by: Knockgoats | June 12, 2009 12:36 PM
JAMSHED MOIDU,
You can't even keep your lies straight, can you, shit-for-brains? From your gormless viewpoint, those claims should both be good news if, contrary to fact, they were true.
Posted by: stillwaters | June 12, 2009 12:38 PM
We had the same type of asshat AG here in Kansas, saying the same kind of crap about the good Dr. Tiller. Phill Kline was his name, and the voters finally elected the other candidate (A Rep turned Dem to run against Kline).
But Kline was appointed AG of Johnson County KS, even though there was question of his residence there.
And he continued his unjust charges against Dr. Tiller. Dr. Tiller was just aquitted of some 100 charges against him this past March.
It's truly a shame when the people that are supposed to be upholding the law are the ones that are trying to take you down, while enabling and emboldening the delusional populace that a legally-abiding citizen is evil and must be stopped at all costs.
I blame Phill Kline for the murder of Dr. Tiller as much as I blame Operation Rescue.
I am ashamed of Kansas. I feel sorry for Nebraska. Where, oh where, is sanity?
Posted by: grizzly | June 12, 2009 12:38 PM
#7, if you are a creationist (which you clearly are), wouldn't this:
"BAD NEWS: There is no evidence from SCIENTIFIC community to support the religion DARWINISM"
Be good news?
Posted by: Citizen of the Cosmos
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June 12, 2009 12:38 PM
@7 JAMSHED
We do have our share of people who don't know the basics of evolutionary theory, but that doesn't mean evolution never happened. Which it did, and does and will continue to do. The theory of evolution is not a religion. Read a book and try again.Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 12, 2009 12:39 PM
Strong with him, insanity is.
/yoda
Posted by: Hank Fox | June 12, 2009 12:39 PM
JAMSHED #7: I still chuckle when religious people claim "darwinism" is a religion, using the word "religion" as a sneering insult.
Given your own probable belief-set, you really are making the oddly self-unaware statement, "What you believe is every bit as stupid as what I believe."
And by the way, evolution theory is just fine, and you know it. You wouldn't be here screeching about it if you thought you were winning.
When the dust clears, you and yours will be on the same trash heap as the flat-earthers, and people — including European youth — will laugh at you for the next thousand years.
Posted by: Matrim | June 12, 2009 12:40 PM
That's why I live in Iowa. Our state motto is: "Hey, at least we're not Nebraska!"
Posted by: grizzly | June 12, 2009 12:42 PM
#7, if you are a creationist (which you clearly are), wouldn't this:
"BAD NEWS: There is no evidence from SCIENTIFIC community to support the religion DARWINISM"
Be good news?
Posted by: Eduardo Padoan | June 12, 2009 12:44 PM
Is he getting any sort of federal protection? Or they will wait another forced-childbirth terrorist appear?
Posted by: jj | June 12, 2009 12:45 PM
Don't feed the Troll! (I've got work to do)
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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June 12, 2009 12:47 PM
I wish good luck and a good set of bodyguards to Dr. Carthart...
oh and JAMSHED, you're a lying idiot. The European youth is the group of non-scientists most likely to accept evolution.
Posted by: LanceR, JSG
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June 12, 2009 12:48 PM
Just a second... have to get up off the floor...Here in what I like to refer to as "One of the notches in the Bible Belt", not only can an open atheist not get elected, it is still widely considered valid cause for firing the person. I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people that I have explicitly *told* about my (non)beliefs. The best answer here, when asked the all-too-frequent "what church you go to?" (grammar errors intentional) is "I was raised Methodist".
When the NRCC posts on its website that they are having great success recruiting candidates for the upcoming 1020 elections, they are mostly talking about Nebraska.
Posted by: Moderately Unbalanced Squid | June 12, 2009 12:49 PM
Good News: There are still morons out there we can mock.
Bad News: Some of these morons occupy public service positions, while others troll on blog commments.
Posted by: Ranson | June 12, 2009 12:50 PM
PZ,
Hasn't Jamshed violated enough of the rules to be plonked yet? "Insipidity" and "Slagging" apply, at the very least.
Posted by: Justin S | June 12, 2009 12:54 PM
Ugh, I DESPISE Jon Bruning. He's one of those stereotypical do-anything, say-anything to get more power politicians, and he blatantly has his eyes set on higher office. I, for one, am proud to have Carhart call this state home - bravery from the depths of the right wing insanity abyss.
Posted by: Interrobang | June 12, 2009 1:17 PM
Is there any way people can (e)mail-deluge Bruning's office with story after story about how Dr. Tiller saved women's lives by ending (wanted) pregnancies gone horribly wrong, pictures of fetuses with horrible fatal birth defects, accounts of grieving parents holding their dying neonates in the maternity ward, while surrounded by cooing parents with healthy infants, and other such miscellania?
If so, I'd say go to it. He wants to run that emotional manipulation on people who need a legitimate, legal medical procedure, I say manipulate right back.
Posted by: Lilo | June 12, 2009 1:27 PM
Nobody undertakes a late term abortion for trivial reasons. It is a desperate move that is one of the most difficult decisions a woman might make in her life. Usually it is a life or death moment. People like Jon Bruning don't have the moral right to say anything about something they obviously haven't even thought about. It's just another case of right-wing, Xian, BS, women are inconsequential crap. Thank you Dr. Carhart for having the bravery to stand up for women, choice and good medicine.
Posted by: Muse | June 12, 2009 1:28 PM
@24 Yes. He's under protection from the Federal Marshals. I escort in DC and our group was asked to be present at the Tiller memorial held by the RCRC. Federal Marshals were present, as Dr. Carhart delivered the eulogy.
Posted by: Becca Stareyes | June 12, 2009 1:28 PM
Ernie Chambers* did, to the point where he only lost his seat due to term limits, but he was a state legislator from the largest city. I highly doubt he'd be able to run for statewide office. (Though some of that would be probably unrelated to his lack of belief in God.)
* You might recall him as the legislator that tried to sue God for being a terrorist as a protest against frivolous lawsuits. Wikipedia technically lists him as an agnostic, so that might not count.
Speaking of, I guess I owe my former Attorney General an email about what I think about his inability to educate himself regarding late-term abortion. Considering Nebraska was the state that brought suit that led to the stupid 'partial-birth' abortion law, this is another black mark against it.
Posted by: Phro
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June 12, 2009 1:29 PM
Ah, Nebraska. The WORST state in the Union with the WORST people. At least in my experience. Which is pretty much the first 18 years of my life.
Racism, homophobia, and blind religious faith are just a few of the wonderful, home-grown family values you can find lurking in the dark hearts (and minds) of its average citizen.
If not for all the innocent minds already there, I would say let them reign in darkness. In fact, drag all the science in the state out, and let the cretins wallow in their own shit (sewer systems were invented by heathens you know). They deserve this Bruning.
And yet, on the flip side, there are good, decent human beings there.
So...I guess, for their sake, they can keep the pagan sewer systems.
Posted by: Tim Fuller | June 12, 2009 1:32 PM
How is this not actionable slander? By a paid public official against a law abiding citizen no less? DHS ought to get involved and have a discussion with him about inciting violence as well.
Enjoy.
Posted by: Agoraphobic Kleptomaniac | June 12, 2009 1:33 PM
"Is there any way people can (e)mail-deluge Bruning's office with story after story about how Dr. Tiller saved women's lives by ending (wanted) pregnancies gone horribly wrong"
Won't work, that's the LEEEEBRAL media. Try Bible passages for this rube. I would suggest something that Jesus said, i.e. Mote in their eye, Least of my bretheren, Love one another... etc.
Posted by: eddie
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June 12, 2009 1:35 PM
Re LanceR @27;
Yeah, 1020 is about right for the NRCC.
Posted by: Kafir | June 12, 2009 1:44 PM
Isn't Atty General Bruning essentially acting in contempt of court / justice by denouncing the laws he is specifically required to uphold? Isn't there a statute somewhere against judicial public servants violating oaths with these crazy remarks?
Posted by: Kafir | June 12, 2009 1:46 PM
I should add: I know he hasn't specifically done anything, but his blatant disregard for those who act within the law could be seen as a veiled threat or clear bias at best, given his position.
Posted by: Paul Lundgren | June 12, 2009 1:49 PM
Two words: Jamshed--Dungeon.
Posted by: Lilie | June 12, 2009 1:54 PM
So he hates that it's in America? Does that mean that he wouldnt care as long as it was in a different country? What difference does that make?
Posted by: raven | June 12, 2009 1:54 PM
Third trimester abortions look to be going underground. The news reports say that there are only 2 or 3 providers left.
OTOH, many also say that some practioners may provide them but they don't exactly make that public knowledge. Why should they when they will be assassinated by xian terrorists while the cops and DA do nothing.
Welcome to the underground. Of course, many women who need such won't be able to get them. Don't blame medicine, blame the fundies.
FWIW, chances are some of Bruning's female relatives have or will get an abortion at some point. A recent study points out that religious school graduates have more abortions than public school graduates. These slime molds are just hypocrits and terrorist enablers.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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June 12, 2009 2:16 PM
Yeah, JAMSHED is a tedious moron, but I don't think I'll plonk him just yet. But I will kill his link to the inane Harun Yahya.
Posted by: Alyson Miers | June 12, 2009 2:18 PM
Message to Dr. Carhart:
COURAGE
Ur doin it rite.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | June 12, 2009 2:19 PM
"OTOH, many also say that some practioners may provide them but they don't exactly make that public knowledge. Why should they when they will be assassinated by xian terrorists while the cops and DA do nothing."
I am sure some doctors will provide them, but keep quiet about it. This of course will disadvantage poor women more than rich ones.
Posted by: Stogoe
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June 12, 2009 2:29 PM
Matrim@22:
You left out those other disreputable states we're better than.
Posted by: Rick R | June 12, 2009 2:32 PM
I signed up for mailers from People For the American Way, and coincidentally, I just received a message from them regarding the release of the DHS report on Right Wing Extremism. Here's a couple choice quotes-
"Radical Right groups' bizarre eagerness to equate themselves with domestic terrorists is puzzling, since the report only focused on violent, racist, anti-Semitic and anti-government extremists."
Which sounds to me like the remnants of an entire political party.
"A coalition of some of America's largest Religious Right groups -- acting under the name No Political Profiling -- released an ad that claimed the DHS report, "declared law-abiding citizens who express their First Amendment Rights as: 'the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States.'"
In reality, the report says, "DHS/I&A assesses that lone wolves and small terrorist cells embracing violent rightwing extremist ideology are the most dangerous domestic terrorism threat in the United States."
And in reaction to the report, the Liberty Counsel -- started by the late Jerry Falwell -- created a number of satirical ID cards to be sold and distributed which proclaimed "Proud to be a Right-Wing Extremist."
That Falwell, always was a barrel o'laughs.
Posted by: Stogoe
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June 12, 2009 2:33 PM
Also Kansas. Don't know how I left it out.
Posted by: MikeyM | June 12, 2009 2:35 PM
I remember hearing once that the "N" that emblazons University of Nebraska football helmets stands for "knowledge." True?
Posted by: Holbach
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June 12, 2009 2:37 PM
Jamshed Moidu @ 7
What imaginary shit god do you puke to? I'm sure we have heard of it, as we know all the insane gods, from the god of the christians to your unstated crap god.
Good News! Jamshed has a shit god!
Bad News! He just thinks he has!
Posted by: Tom | June 12, 2009 2:42 PM
It makes me glad I live in NY. So would it be possible to convince all those red states to form their own country? We wouldn't have to worry about their scientists competing against us. Whenever they needed anything they could just stand around and pray for it.
And notice that it is FEDERAL marshals that are guarding the good doctor. Apparently they don't trust the state police.
Posted by: martha | June 12, 2009 2:44 PM
If the antichoice people were really intent on saving the unborn, why don't they start kidnapping pregnant women going to the clinic and forcing them to carry the child to term?
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 12, 2009 2:47 PM
Humm. Too long in front of a monitor today. I just read that as
"If the artichoke people"
Posted by: LanceR, JSG
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June 12, 2009 2:56 PM
As a former University employee, I have to say... sadly, yes. But hey! We have actual books here! Somewhere. Probably over by that bonfire...
Posted by: Brian A | June 12, 2009 2:59 PM
As an Nebraskan I can say that Jon Bruning does not speak for me. I am proud that a fellow Nebraskan will stand up and support women's rights in a state where most people will be against him. Dr. Carhart will have a difficult time here, I am sure.
Having said that, I must say I am quite disappointed to read the many comments that lump all Nebraskans together as backward, bible-thumping idiots. Every state contains more than its share of idiots who rise to positions of power and say and do inane things. Slowly but surely, Nebraska has been making progress in many ways - for the first time in recent history Nebraska actually provided one electoral vote for a democratic presidential candidate. There are many people working hard in this state to help progressive causes, they deserve respect, not derision. Making fun of an entire state because of a few (or even many) is not something I would expect from people who consider themselves to be critical thinkers.
Posted by: Draken | June 12, 2009 3:01 PM
That Jamshed dude has a whopping 57 photo's of Adnan Oktar on his front page. I see a romance.
Posted by: varlo | June 12, 2009 3:03 PM
Not to worry, BDC. They have artichokes for brains.
Posted by: Alyson Miers | June 12, 2009 3:17 PM
#53:
Don't give them ideas. They just might try doing exactly that.
Posted by: s1mplex
|
June 12, 2009 3:26 PM
Dear Attorney General Bruning:
I would fucking laugh in your face if your wife and daughter were to die horrible and painful deaths from complications during child-birth that could have been prevented by performing a legal medical procedure.
Cheers.
Posted by: FastLane | June 12, 2009 3:39 PM
Well, the new Kansas motto is:
At least we aren't as bad as....oh wait, nevermind.
It's a bit long for a bumper sticker.
The real Kansas motto is:
"Kansas, as bigoted as you think."
Posted by: Watchman | June 12, 2009 3:43 PM
And another thread gets jamshed.
Posted by: Dianne | June 12, 2009 3:52 PM
It makes me glad I live in NY.
NY could use some work too. Remember what happened in Buffalo. And a woman with a dangerous, non-viable pregnancy at 25 weeks can not get an abortion in NY.
Plus there's the whole gay marriage (or lack thereof--in NY) thing that my Iowan sister keeps reminding me about.
Posted by: Paul | June 12, 2009 4:04 PM
This is pretty twisted.
I work for the Attorney General of my state, a Democrat (not that it means anything), and there is absolutely no way he would ever say something in his official capacity like that about anyone who is engaging in a completely lawful enterprise. A state Attorney General is supposed to enforce the law, not make judgments upon those who follow it.
And the wingnuts complain that Sotomayor would bring too much of her ideology into her non-partisan job...sheesh.
Posted by: pdferguson
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June 12, 2009 4:06 PM
The most frightening aspect of this is that it sends a clear message to domestic terrorists that they can conduct their campaigns of intimidation with relative impunity in the state of Kansas. Short of committing murder, they are free to threaten patients and health workers, destroy private property, and violate civil rights. It is truly a sad day for justice and freedom in America. This man Bruning should be removed from office forthwith.
Posted by: Russell Wilson | June 12, 2009 4:26 PM
Why not allow men to abort with out partner consent also? I think men should be able to plop down two grand and say I ma out of here. It is discriminatory to only allow women the right to advocate parent hood.
Posted by: Alyson Miers | June 12, 2009 4:38 PM
Aaaand Russell Wilson makes about as much sense as the forced-birth crowd ever does.
Posted by: Rick R | June 12, 2009 4:39 PM
Russell, you're trolling here, and on the Loving thread. Bored? Need to get a life??
Find some other place to spew your vomit. Fuck off.
Posted by: MickyW | June 12, 2009 4:40 PM
You need a holiday, Rev.
Come over to Ireland and we'll go climbing at Fairhead
Posted by: raven | June 12, 2009 4:41 PM
They already have that right. Any male that gets pregnant is treated equally under the law.
Posted by: BlingorNoBling | June 12, 2009 6:14 PM
To the good Dr.Carhart: Please, for the sake of your life, and the lives of the women you save, stay away from the fucking churches. Nobody needs them, and you perform far too important a task to risk yourself by patronizing those backward hellholes.
Posted by: raven | June 12, 2009 6:15 PM
If a xian terrorist kills a doc in Nebraska, the state attorney general, Jon Bruning will have to recuse himself. He can't try a case like that now. He has already shown deriliction of duty, prejudice, and unwillingness to uphold the law.
No judge would let him try such a case under those circumstances. Not very bright but fundies are never bright.
Posted by: Disciple of "Bob" | June 12, 2009 6:18 PM
Why aren't the actual reasons late abortions are performed more widely known? It would seem appropriate to make this information as clear and available as possible, as a lot of anti-choicers are under the impression that it's done just for the hell of it. The pro-choice folks seem to be relatively quiet about it. In fact, I don't know many of the details myself. I have a hard time finding any info on the interwebs that isn't frothing anti-abortion propaganda.
Posted by: Ron Hager | June 12, 2009 6:19 PM
If there were a poll asking if Nebraska Attorney General Jon Bruning is (pick one or more): a criminal, a political whore, a sick deranged woman killing psychopath, a protector of pedophiles, a lying sack of sh*t, or a danger to decent people everywhere.
I would check the box labeled "All Of The Above".
How come so many of these sick evil bastards get elected to office?
Posted by: raven | June 12, 2009 6:58 PM
They are known. The term late term abortion is meaningless. To a fundie it is something like telling a girl where babies come from before she has had a few kids.
The correct term is third trimester abortion.
A lot of data isn't being collected or collated anymore on third trimesters. What doc wants to get on such a list and get killed.
There are only around 1,000 done in the USA, under heavy regulation and thorough review. The fundies know all this but hey, they always lie so why worry about it? You have to realize that anyone who thinks murder is OK isn't going to even think 1 second about lying.
Posted by: Samwise | June 12, 2009 6:59 PM
Ugh, this whole business just pushes my buttons. Those who condone or "understand" murdering a doctor have such a backwards, insane idea of the situations his patients are in. Many of these women are in serious danger. Others have learned that carrying to term would mean a painful, miserable, horribly short life of pure suffering - it's not that they "didn't get around to" terminating the pregnancy earlier.
Way to represent my state, you schmuck.
Posted by: Alyson Miers | June 12, 2009 8:02 PM
#73:
Here is a sampling of testimonials of real-life abortions, most of them performed in the second or third trimester at Dr. Tiller's clinic, which I have found very helpful. Sully has since posted more stories from his readers, but the link above is a good place to start.
Posted by: Eric | June 12, 2009 9:30 PM
I went to college with Bruning. You should read his pro-choice column from the college newspaper. I have it right here.
Anyway, I'd like to reiterate the comments about Nebraskans. We're not all like Bruning. Things are slowly improving. It will get better and blanket insults about the whole state aren't going to help.
Posted by: cicely
|
June 12, 2009 10:13 PM
s1mplex @ 60:
Easy, there, d00d. There is no justice in punishing his wife, daughter, or any other person, for his shortcomings.
Posted by: Steven Dunlap | June 12, 2009 10:35 PM
@ "Bob" 73
This reminds me of what should have been a major scandal in the early 1990s. When the Clinton administration took over they discovered that Surgeon General Koop had suppressed research that showed 1.) Legally, properly performed abortions in the 1st trimester were 5 times safer than bringing a baby to term and 2.) the overwhelming majority of women who had abortions did not suffer psychological trauma as a result.
@ Phro
I'm guessing you have never been to New Jersey?
Posted by: James F | June 12, 2009 11:26 PM
#80
You know, I always thought Cuttlefish was the most original and creative commenter here on Pharyngula. Well move over, we've got a new king!
Posted by: Monado | June 13, 2009 12:56 AM
Late-term abortions are more dangerous than childbirth, so for sound medical reasons doctors will not do them unless there is an overriding danger. It could be a dying fetus or one that will live in pain and die young, if it even lives until birth. The quality of life of a child and the odds of growing to adulthood are taken into account.
It could also be that the mother's life is endangered by carrying to term or that her health will be permanently damaged. In that case, the fetus is an inadvertent aggressor and an abortion is allowed because she can have another child, but not another life. In these cases, the fetus is not developed enough to be viable. Bill O'Reilley's claim that "viable babies are aborted" is not accurate. They are fetuses that would be viable if they could be left to develop for weeks or months, but for the mother's sake, they can't.
Note: do not go to a Catholic hospital to give birth; they require you to sign an agreement in advance that, given a choice, they will let the mother die and save the baby.
Medically, there is no such thing as a "partial-birth abortion" and the law is written so vaguely that it can be applied to almost any abortion technique, making doctors still more reluctant to do abortions not for medical reasons, but out of fear.
Antiabortion protesters go or bring their daughters for abortions all the time. Personally, if I were a doctor, I would not give one until the daughter or protester or both had signed an agreement that their name could be publicized if they returned to clinic blockades or public anti-abortion harangues. In fact, I would videotape them asking for an abortion and make sure they signed a release for that, too. I would use them, too, if necessary. There is such a thing as being too nice when dealing with hypocrites.
I never got over the fact that the Attorney General for Canada, Francis Fox, was introducing legislation to re-criminalize abortion with one hand and forging his lover's husband's signature on spousal permission to get an abortion with the other. Or that a girl bled to death in my old University residences in the week between the time that Parliament passed a new abortion law and the Senate rejected it.
Posted by: Monado | June 13, 2009 1:20 AM
There's a web site called A Heartbreaking Choice that has some stories from patients of Dr. Tiller. I was impressed that in many cases the delay in getting an abortion came not only from "we thought it was OK but it's not" but also from taking ultrasounds again and again, with higher resolution and a couple of weeks apart, to verify the extent of damage to the fetus.
Posted by: Lucifer Ratcliffe | June 13, 2009 1:39 AM
Dear PZ,
You have fairly shown that the Nebraska AG is flagrantly prejudiced against an abortion-providing doctor. Said AG should most definitely be obliged to recuse himself from issues involving abortion. But you also claim that the AG has somehow "enabled" murder. He hasn't indicated that he's going to let murderers go free even if they kill abortion docs, has he? As a famously loud-mouthed critical thinker, don't you think you owe your readers greater substantiation, even if they don't actually seem to want any?
If someone were to murder Dick Cheney, I'd want them arrested and thrown in jail. After all, just because I hate Dick Cheney (and, boy, do I hate Dick Cheney!) is no reason to let a killer go free, though it would be nice if we could have our extraordinarilly venal ex-VP tried for war crimes one of these days.
Posted by: IainW | June 13, 2009 7:00 AM
Brian A (#56):
I was going to comment on the rampant regional stereotyping myself, when I realised that here in the UK we have our own equivalent, i,e., Ulster Protestants. If there was ever a group which just begged to be tarred indiscriminately with the "backward, bible-thumping idiots" brush ...
Posted by: Sili
|
June 13, 2009 8:54 AM
I think the assumption behind these regional generalisations is something along the lines of reasonable people - the "Us" the stigmatised "Them" - being seen and citizens of the world - patriotism in all its forms thus considered as part of the backwards image.
If that makes sense ...
Posted by: KI | June 13, 2009 9:19 AM
So the AG gets to decide which laws he will uphold, and the cops get to choose which citizens they protect, and the churches decide who gets to be married.
As a pot smoking atheist black gay I'm curious, what is this freedom you speak of and where can I get some? (Only two of the four are applicable to me, but I use this as a standard question to the "Why do you hate America?" idiots.)
I'm really sick of the American propaganda lies and bullshit. There is little or no "freedom" here, pathetic examples like "but you can say what you want" are just so much phony crap. We are all serfs in a giant plantation, overworked drones serving Capital and the rich. Our so-called "protectors" are just jackbooted thugs and brownshirts.
Posted by: Sami | June 13, 2009 11:01 AM
Good on Dr Carhart. His courage in the face of terrorism is commendable, and his dedication to protecting the lives of women is admirable. According to his wikipedia entry, he used to do abortions only a little bit, then arsonists attacked his farm; determined not to let the antis win, he switched to full-time abortion provision. He sounds like an ornery old bastard. More power to him.
I'll be praying for his safety. I have no idea whether he's Christian, or even religious, but I can't imagine it will hurt.
Posted by: bimmerella | June 13, 2009 1:19 PM
Anyone who sympathizes with Dr. Tiller's murderer, is no different than the people you saw on the news running around in the streets of the Middle East celebrating the 9/11 attacks. It's celebrating terrorism, and there should be no place in this world for it. How can anyone not see where all these religious roads are leading? Is there any other way for it to go? Has it EVER gone anywhere other than oppression, intolerance and ultimately killing in it's name? Ugh, this attorney general really needs to loose his job. Wonder if the ACLU could bring anything against this jack ass?
Posted by: anti-supernaturalist | June 13, 2009 8:14 PM
** christo-terrorism and its government supporters
Protected by complicit federal and state officials, cells of xian thugs have been targeting women and their humane values for decades. Irrationality drives scientific knowledge about sex from America's schools just as it drives medical research abroad.
Dominionists (for example Palin) embrace state totalitarianism. Their "truths" can never win popular support. An open society will repudiate their nihilism composed of literalist lies, morally repugnant beliefs, puritanical strictures, and violence.
Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter | June 15, 2009 1:13 PM
I really don't think most people know the reasons for late-term abortions and need to be educated. I am middle-aged and thought I was reasonably well-informed about abortion. I poster on a previous thread clarified that abortion is a specific medical procedure performed on a woman and has not relation to whether or not he fetus is actually alive.
I had a friend (in Canada, about 20 years ago) who had 2 stillbirths - the babies died just a few weeks before her due date. They wanted her to carry the dead babies until she began spontaneous labour - this happened within a week for one; the other had to be induced when she didn't go into labour after 10 days. It was like the horror movie "It's Alive!!" - carrying around a dead baby and knowing you would have to go through an entire labour to deliver something for its funeral...She was so traumatized after the second that she had her tubes tied.
I could not understand why they just didn't go in and take them out. I thought that they considered that the risks of labour were less than surgery. Now, I think they may have been trying to avoid a late term abortion. And I am really curious how the medical profession weighs the options in cases like this - natural birth vs cesarean surgery vs abortion.
My own case was less traumatic. I began bleeding heavily at 7-8 weeks, was admitted to the hospital where I was monitored for 36 hours. They kept taking blood tests while I kept wondering when they were going to do something. While I know many women bleed but go on to a healthy pregnancy, I thought my bleeding was so heavy that I assumed I had spontaneously aborted. Which I eventually did. I found out that the blood tests were to check my hormone levels - they didn't want to do the D&C until they had dropped to non-pregnant levels. I guess doing a D&C before they could have verified me non-pregnant would have made it an abortion(?)
Perhaps I have the terminology muddled - if someone could steer me to a website that can clarify this, I would appreciate it.
But if the doctors are helping women abort dead fetuses that they would otherwise have to carry to "term", they are a doing an invaluable service.
Those who want to ban ALL late-term abortions should be asked "How long does a woman have to carry a dead baby until a doctor can treat her?"