Pharyngula

Posted by: Matt | June 26, 2009 10:10 AM

Can you expect much else from Georgia though?

Posted by: mxh | June 26, 2009 10:13 AM

I would guess that number 4 is ahead of number 3.

Posted by: dinkum | June 26, 2009 10:14 AM

Morans.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 26, 2009 10:17 AM

hahahahahahahahaha

Posted by: Felix | June 26, 2009 10:18 AM

So, does that list mean (that's how I take a list of priorities to work by definition) that they will not do anything else before God shows up?

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 26, 2009 10:19 AM

Can you expect much else from Georgia though?

Yes sir. Wees all dumb folk down her in da south.

idiot.

Posted by: Phodopus | June 26, 2009 10:21 AM

Atheletics must be throwing things at Atheists

Posted by: MadScientist | June 26, 2009 10:21 AM

"I would guess that #3 is very, very far down the list."

Not as far down the list as spelling.

Posted by: Alverant | June 26, 2009 10:22 AM

Education fail

Posted by: Felix | June 26, 2009 10:25 AM

Well, the upside is that they can obviously follow the Hammer principle to any consequence without damaging anything important.

The guy in the background looks quite healthy and strong - he’s probably a closet atheist. Or maybe he just thinks that higher numbers come first.

Posted by: Kyle | June 26, 2009 10:30 AM

This is definitely saved.

Ah Christians, how you never cease to amuse me.

Posted by: MadScientist | June 26, 2009 10:34 AM

@Zeno: Guessing from the other words on the list, that should be "spelleng" or even "speleling". But don't take my word for it, I've always failed the association section of IQ tests. Come to think of it, I've always failed every section of an IQ test.

Posted by: Moggie | June 26, 2009 10:35 AM

5. Stop! Hammer Time!

Posted by: Phodopus | June 26, 2009 10:38 AM

@Mad Scientist: Can you actually FAIL an IQ test? That's harsh...

Posted by: Qwerty | June 26, 2009 10:39 AM

My sister teaches at a community college in Maryland. She had a student who turned in a paper about "the defense of line" when he meant "defensive line" and another student who turned in a paper about how weight lifting had improved his "self of steam." I'll let you guess what the second one meant, but I'd guess both students were from this
Georgia home-schooled team.

Posted by: Kraid | June 26, 2009 10:39 AM

Remember, kids: if God tells you to kill your family, you must obey. The voices in your head are the highest priority.

Posted by: bobxxxx | June 26, 2009 10:42 AM

"Yes sir. Wees all dumb folk down her in da south."

You're a bit too sensitive. I live in a state full of yahoos, Floriduh, and I don't mind admitting I live in a hick infested state.

The fact is the southern states of America really do have the highest concentration of morons in the world. It's for a good reason it's called the Bible Belt.

Posted by: SC, OM | June 26, 2009 10:42 AM

Have you posted on this exorcism yet?

http://www.colbertnation.com/the-colbert-report-videos/232013/june-25-2009/gay-demon-on-the-loose

Posted by: Phodopus | June 26, 2009 10:44 AM

Now on the other hand, If God tells you to go do Atheletics, but your Dad tells you to work on your Acedemics, you have a logicel cunondrum!

Posted by: CJColucci | June 26, 2009 10:47 AM

When I saw the picture this morning -- and I'm sure the Times noticed it and decided the best thing to do was nothing* -- the second thing I thought of was, "What's PZ going to do with this?"

*Example: I recently saw the Boradway production of Blither Spirit, with Angela Lansbury in the role of the dotty spiritualist/medium. At one point, as she stands downstage center, another character mentions that her husband is writing a mystery novel based on a mystery writer getting involved in a real murder case. You could tell that the audeince was waiting to see what the long-time star of Murder She Wrote would do with this set-up -- ad lib? some piece of stage business? Instead, she did absolutely nothing. Just stood there still and silent for about five seconds. The audience roared.

Posted by: Phodopus | June 26, 2009 10:50 AM

To be fair, their coach probably doesn't get to teach those things. Also, if only that was their worst problem.

Posted by: Sharon | June 26, 2009 10:54 AM

That's shocking. Sometimes I am embarrassed by fellow parents. I home educate and have an autistic child. So often when I pass on this information people assume I'm a anti-vaccine religious crank as that's the image that gets the most publicity.

@Owen, not all of us are against godless society and we can manage to educate our children well with all the amazing resources available these days.

Posted by: Dancaban | June 26, 2009 10:55 AM

We can't have them spelling right because that's witchcraft!

Posted by: SC, OM | June 26, 2009 10:59 AM

bobxxxx:

I live in a state full of yahoos

Too...many...jokes...

Posted by: Phodopus | June 26, 2009 11:01 AM

@49:They probably didn't bother to read beyond point 1. Amen. That's how it works, as long as you are godly, other flaws don't matter.

Posted by: Keanus | June 26, 2009 11:02 AM

As a native southerner, although long transplanted to the north, I can attest that the true religion of the south is ignorance. (It's also fundamental to contemporary Republican policy.) It's honored even more than god. This is a perfect example.

Posted by: ddr | June 26, 2009 11:03 AM

Yes! Be the hammer of Thor.

Posted by: KCS | June 26, 2009 11:05 AM

God has to be first because...
1. You have to pray that your family doesn't find your weed or your downloaded porn.
2. You have to pray that you'll pass that biology test you didn't study for. (It's too late for the spelling test)
3. You have to pray that you and your team will win the Friday night game to prove your superiority over the other rednecks in the next county.

Posted by: Sarah | June 26, 2009 11:07 AM

Not all homeschoolers in GA are that stupid. Grrrr...that irritates me.

Posted by: Victor | June 26, 2009 11:09 AM

They just keep handing up this stuff. It's great. Keeps the blogs alive.

Posted by: Eamon Knight | June 26, 2009 11:10 AM

I'm trying to decide whether "atheletics" means "kicking the shit out of those damned atheists" or "understanding the arguments against the existence of God". I have a sick feeling it ain't the latter.

Posted by: Multicellular | June 26, 2009 11:12 AM

Actually, it makes sense if spelled phonetically with a southern accent. Then again, maybe it's just spelling in tongues.

Posted by: Eric TF Bat | June 26, 2009 11:14 AM

Apparently there are two separate home-schooling get-together groups where I live: the one for the religious freaks, and the one for the rest. We hang out with the latter group, but some of the former occasionally come along, and they're just as hideous as you'd expect: here's a mother reassuring her daughter that the museum display about evolution isn't really true; there's a daddy making sure his son doesn't take the Lord's name in vain but not bothering to redirect him when he leaves the post-picnic washing up to his sisters. The religious home-schooled kids are getting exactly the sort of education you'd expect, high in acedemics and atheletics! The rest of us try to make sure our kids actually get some advantage; the results are pretty damn good.

Posted by: Jim Lynn | June 26, 2009 11:15 AM

From the article:

"From that small seed has sprouted the Glory for Christ Football League, eight teams composed of home-schoolers and students at small Christian academies. "

So are you *absolutely* sure that that sign came from homeschoolers? And not one of the academies?

It's just that PZ tends to use 'Homeschooler' as a synonym for 'Christian Zealots keeping children ignorant' and that's a huge disservice to the very large number of us who practise Home Education (a much better term than homeschooling by the way) because we believe it's a *far* better way for our children to learn than locking them away in a failing public institution for the majority of their day then locking them in their rooms until they've completed their homework.

Our bookshelves contain Dawkins, Hitchens, Sagan, Pinker, Hawking, Randi, Jillette. Our kids enjoy watching great Natural History programmes, science shows (for the brief time it was on in the UK, Mythbusters was one of their favourites) or anything else they are interested in. I've even been known to tell them bedtime stories about the behaviours of genes.

So 'homeschooling' isn't only the preserve of creationists (although I accept they're a common public manifestation, to our great embarrassment) - some of us decide against school because we want to widen our children's minds, not narrow them.

Posted by: Sili | June 26, 2009 11:16 AM

So is "atheletics" like Dianetics for the athiest of Athe worshippers?

Hmmmm - this looks more 'podian than cranial ...

Posted by: Michelle R | June 26, 2009 11:17 AM

...Why do I always feel a terrible malaise whenever I read or hear people put God in front of their very own family? It just strikes me as a terrible thing to do.

I hope they are better schooled than their panels indicate.

Posted by: The Godhead | June 26, 2009 11:18 AM

P Z Meyers makes the baby Jeebus cry.

Follow my humorous antics on Twitter

[url]http://twitter.com/The_Godhead[/url]

Posted by: Daryl Cobranchi | June 26, 2009 11:23 AM

I would guess that #3 is very, very far down the list.

Lots of us dumb hick Southern homeschoolers take academics very seriously. That's why we choose to homeschool.

Posted by: Davey | June 26, 2009 11:24 AM

"Acedemics" is when teachers are told to let the atheletes ace all their tests.

Posted by: ThurrtyPhiv | June 26, 2009 11:25 AM

Six years ago I was a fundamentalist Christian. I was Christian homeschooled through middle school and high school, and like these kids I am from North Georgia. I attended my own church 3 times every week, and I attended 5 week-long revivals (on average) every year. Now, I am an atheist and I just received my master's degree in accounting from a respectable public university.

I only say this to show you that there is hope for these kids, even though they are being put at a huge disadvantage.

Posted by: tsg | June 26, 2009 11:31 AM

@Jim Lynn, #70

So are you *absolutely* sure that that sign came from homeschoolers? And not one of the academies?

From the article:

By 2002, the sports-loving sons of Roger and Diana McDaniel had aged out of recreation league football. A school team was not an option.

They had no school. The boys were educated at home, cracking open textbooks — English, math, Bible — about a first-down-marker’s length from their bedroom.

So the McDaniels huddled with two other families and formed a team of 18 players ages 12 to 18.

You'll note the name on the sign is "Coach McDaniel". So apparently, yes, they are sure. How you construe this as a slight to all home-schoolers, though, is beyond me.

Posted by: XD | June 26, 2009 11:35 AM

Hey, at least they could count to four!

#42

I recently saw the Boradway production of Blither Spirit, with Angela Lansbury in the role of the dotty spiritualist/medium.

Posted by: BAllanJ | June 26, 2009 11:39 AM

OH NO!!! Pez is infecting other threads now!

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 26, 2009 11:45 AM

holy shit pez

you are way past your 3 comments so....

you are a fucking idiot.

Posted by: MrFire | June 26, 2009 11:46 AM

Now now, let's all be good aethiests, and not make fun of the Christoids.

Posted by: Whatevermachine | June 26, 2009 11:47 AM

I'm British, and I was homeschooled, as were several members of my family. None of the british homeschoolers I've met are religious wingnuts, on the contrary they are the most confident and independent-minded people I've met. It pains me to see the public ideas about homeschooling being taken over by the over-prominence of (usually American) wingnuts! Homeschooling is the best choice my mother ever made, she always encouraged me to make my own choices about everything. And it's not like I didn't socialise either. Honestly, if only the religious nuts didn't seem to take over this whole thing and ruin its reputation.

Posted by: Dr.Woody | June 26, 2009 11:48 AM

They don't need to home-school the North Georgia Falcons because the school exists as a segregationist "acedemy." That whole region is rife with 'em.

Posted by: BigBob | June 26, 2009 11:50 AM

Oops. It was me. Soz.

Posted by: Somnolent Aphid | June 26, 2009 11:51 AM

And why is "are" the only word not capitalized? This has to be some kind of code.

Posted by: MadScientist | June 26, 2009 11:53 AM

@Phodopus: "You had IQ tests on a regular basis as part of your HS exams which were subsequently discussed with the counselor?"

Yeah, creepy isn't it? The funniest thing was the teachers kept repeating "don't feel bad if you don't do well, this will have absolutely no impact on your academic record". I asked what was the point, but no one would answer. Getting low scores was an opportunity to attempt to get more information about why the silly tests were administered. I never did find out why; I've often wondered if no one could tell me what the point was because (1) there was no point or (2) no one had a clue. Not everyone got to discuss the results with the counselors though; only 'special' ones like me. I asked other kids about their discussions with the counselors but no one would speak.

Posted by: MattB | June 26, 2009 11:53 AM

Christians are not terribly bright people.

Me. Pointing. Laughing.

Posted by: RJSJR | June 26, 2009 11:57 AM

I'm guessing that since the numbers are in their correct order, this may not be the original sign.

Posted by: MarcusA | June 26, 2009 11:57 AM

Clearly, it's a logarithmic scale.

Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | June 26, 2009 11:58 AM

So Coach McDaniels & the North Ga. Falcons give no priority to "America" or "Patriotism" or "USA" or any of that sissy Caesar stuff, eh? The Religious Reich is mutating before our very eyes!

Too bad - I bet the coach's creative orthography could enhance all of those themes.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 26, 2009 12:05 PM

Yes sir. Wees all dumb folk down her in da south.

I hate to break it to you rev., but 4 of the bottom 10 states in education are southern states (Georgia, Louisiana, Alabama, and Mississippi), only one of the top 10 states in education is from the south (Virginia), two in the top 20 if you count Maryland as "south."

The south, especially the deep south, has a long history of undervaluing and underfunding education so, while you might not be happy about the joke, there is ample evidence to support the rationale for it.

Well shit then. Lets talk about not expecting much from Latinos and African Americans too. Their high school graduations rates range around 20-25% less than whites in the US (at least as of 2002).

Trust me, I live in South Carolina I'm well aware of the issues with education in the South. I also know that the stereotype of "dumb southerners" is a load of shit. Yes we have our issues but the lame lumping everyone together because of the place they live is lazy, ignorant and `typically wrong.

Posted by: dogmeatIB | June 26, 2009 12:11 PM

Well shit then. Lets talk about not expecting much from Latinos and African Americans too. Their high school graduations rates range around 20-25% less than whites in the US (at least as of 2002).

Are you trying to claim that southerners are the product of multi-generational racism, intentional diversion of funding and defunding of education, and the product of intentional economic, social, and educational discrimination?

Posted by: Pez | June 26, 2009 12:13 PM

I've been following this blog for a long time, never commented. Pretty much subscribe to the same thoughts...however, reading most of these posts, it disheartens me how nasty and insensitive most people are here after the death of Michael Jackson. I don't believe in the after life and try to build my moral compass on my own humanity and the golden rule. Quite appalling including the main comment from the post...leave a strange corpse. So much for kindness and good virtues. Why don't people keep some thoughts to themselves when they have nothing good to say? I thought the writer and the other posters in this blog were somewhat above this stupidity.

Posted by: MrMarkAZ | June 26, 2009 12:14 PM

Scientists today announced the discovery of a new raptor species: Falco Durrhurrhurrus, or the Northga Falcon. Its natural habitat is quite small, restricted to rural areas in the southeastern United States. Although the parental falcons take a great deal of care and interest in nurturing the well-being of their hatchlings, few if any of the chicks master the art of self-sustained flight. When pushed out of the nest, most plunge to their deaths whilst cheeping, "gravityizonlyatheory!" and "prayoutdagayz!" Scientists are still trying to decode the meaning behind these curious vocal emanations.

Posted by: tsg | June 26, 2009 12:23 PM

It's not a good time to be a home educator, and unfortunately, stories like this about the crackpots tend to be the only ones which get any play.

It is a problem. A lot of people are using home education to inflict their ignorance on their children. I have no problem with home education in theory, it's just that in practice it largely gets done wrong. If you can come up with a way to ensure home-schooled children are getting a proper education, the problem will go away. Until then, though, you can expect to see a lot of stories pointing out the problems. When it works right, it's not terribly interesting except as an occasional human interest story.

Posted by: Andrew | June 26, 2009 12:26 PM

What happened to Country? Do they hate America or something?

Posted by: Phodopus | June 26, 2009 12:28 PM

@ragarth: Not to nitpick, but Mr Lynn gave us to understand that he is from the UK, and his grammar should be corrected accordingly. Go practise

Posted by: Michael B | June 26, 2009 12:32 PM

Thanks for linking us. I found this photo quite by accident while looking through another NYT slideshow featuring the work of James Ensor. When I saw the "The Lord Loves Football Too" slideshow title, I knew it would be good.

Posted by: Thomas Lee Elifritz | June 26, 2009 12:36 PM

Isn't this something the Freedom From Religion Foundation would be interested in?

Posted by: dogmeatIB | June 26, 2009 12:45 PM

I was merely pointing to a statistic on graduations rates and that people might uses the same logic to say the same thing about african-americans and latinos.

Which would also be wrong.

I know rev., my comment was tongue in cheek. I just don't have that much sympathy for people in a region that regularly undervalues and underfunds education who then complain about the perception that they are ignorant. I know you're the choir in this one, if it makes you feel any better, I currently reside in Arizona, Alabama gets to "Thank God" for Arizona every year, otherwise they might be last in education. ;o)

Posted by: HONO | June 26, 2009 12:49 PM

"Be the hammer not the nail" is one of those football slogans that gets thrown around during practice to inspire the kids to bring the pain an not take the hits. Kind of like "Big time players make big time plays," and "Be an ath-e-lete! Make that play!"

Growing up playing football in Texas, surrounded by fundamentalist coaches, I saw this kind of ignorance every day. And it was annoying.

Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 26, 2009 12:54 PM

Have you posted on this exorcism yet?

The pastor was on CNN:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v9oIuBNx-3A

Posted by: Rick S | June 26, 2009 12:57 PM

Absolutely classic!

Posted by: Paul Burnett | June 26, 2009 12:58 PM

Luke (#23) wrote: "Be the hammer, not the nail." - Kind of ironic when said by a Christian."

I've seen a poster of a ferocious-looking helmeted Viking warrior saying something like "My god has a hammer - your god died nailed to a board - any questions?"

Posted by: Obeah | June 26, 2009 1:02 PM

Ragarth,

How do you spell prick?

Posted by: ??? | June 26, 2009 1:08 PM

I've been following this blog for a long time, never commented. Pretty much subscribe to the same thoughts...however, reading most of these posts, it disheartens me how nasty and insensitive most people are here after the death of Michael Jackson. I don't believe in the after life and try to build my moral compass on my own humanity and the golden rule. Quite appalling including the main comment from the post...leave a strange corpse. So much for kindness and good virtues. Why don't people keep some thoughts to themselves when they have nothing good to say? I thought the writer and the other posters in this blog were somewhat above this stupidity.

Oh, Pez off!

Posted by: truthspeaker | June 26, 2009 1:16 PM

Posted by: Owen | June 26, 2009 10:44 AM

If they cannot master spelling, or even consider proof reading, what chance do they have at teaching any science and mathematics?

There you go, being elitist.

Posted by: Holbach | June 26, 2009 1:19 PM

??? @ 144

What the hell does the subject at hand have to do with the death of Michael Jackson? We deal with reality, not wishful thinking or sappy platitudes. There was a thread on Jackson earlier. We moved on and now we wre dissecting religious stupidity. Unless of course you are decrying the general attitude of most commenters to the subject at hand which is mostly about religious stupidity and science reaction to it. Oh boo hoo, the world is so mean and the Pharyngulites only add to the misery of stupidity.

Posted by: counsel | June 26, 2009 1:25 PM

I am a recent devotee of this blog, and enjoy it greatly. I appreciate that I am jeopardizing my right to have 3 posts made before anyone lowers the boom on me, but it seems to me, with all respect to the commenters, that many of them add little to the discussion beyond self-reinforcement. 'We are rational, and atheists, and they, the objects of our ridicule are stupid, misguided, and far, far inferior to our lofty selves'.

As a newbie, I find this trend towards self-congratulation and reinforcement to be unattractive. This trend is by no means universal... many of the commenters appear to be adding substance to the discussion. And, my sampling of the comments is narrow, given my relatively recent exposure to the blog...perhaps the sign that gave rise to this thread simply offered too easy a target for sarcasm.

I apologize in advance if this post is seem by most as being overly presumptuous.... or worse:)

Posted by: Jim Lynn | June 26, 2009 1:32 PM

@ragarth #123

As has already been pointed out, I'm British and therefore use British spelling. I'm sorry if this somehow offends you.

Also, that was the most desperate grammar flame I've ever seen. If you're reduced to mostly bitching about comma style (an area on which I'll admit I have no strong opinion) then I'm unsure of the point you're making.

And I'm not sure why you object so much to the term 'homeschooler' or 'homeschooling'. I dislike it because it doesn't fit all modes of home education, but it's a well enough accepted word. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homeschooling

By the way, I wasn't homeschooled at all. I just think it's the right thing to do, and I think it's the right of every parent to decide how best to raise their children. Even nutjobs, unfortunately. It's the price of freedom.

Posted by: tsg | June 26, 2009 1:36 PM

1. Bacon 2. Sex 3. Money 4. ??

5. Profit!

Posted by: Phodopus | June 26, 2009 1:40 PM

@152
"If you're reduced to mostly bitching about comma style [..] then I'm unsure of the point you're making."

hehe

Posted by: Chgo_Liz | June 26, 2009 1:49 PM

35 @ #82:

Couldn't help but notice that your screen name is particularly apt for this thread.

Posted by: Jim A | June 26, 2009 1:53 PM

So are you *absolutely* sure that that sign came from homeschoolers? And not one of the academies?

Pretty sure, alghough the coach MIGHT be from an acedemy.

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 26, 2009 1:59 PM

Pretty sure, alghough the coach MIGHT be from an acedemy.

are you sure

Posted by: tsg | June 26, 2009 2:06 PM

Not quite fair, you guys. Just because Coach McDaniel can't spell doesn't mean all homeschoolers are poor spellers, let alone illiterate.

Didn't say they were.

After all, 90% of you guys here are grade-A assholes, but I know quite a number of atheists who aren't, and I don't blame them for your behavior.

The assholes among you are probably not really like that in person, though, but get a charge out of being that way anonymously...but I digress.

Your concern is noted.

/me getting a kick out of yet another "hey you group of people, stop grouping people!" complaint.

Posted by: Akiko | June 26, 2009 2:10 PM

Matt #2 I live in the South and I home school my children. I am a scientist as well. Three of my closest friends, a physicist, a hydrogeologist and an archeologist, also home school their children. My friends are are secular home schoolers. Not everyone who lives in the South is a moron. Just the Fundies.

Posted by: Phodopus | June 26, 2009 2:18 PM

maybe the 90% were meant as some kind of weighted average...

Posted by: dogmeatIB | June 26, 2009 2:27 PM

I'm not sure I'm an asshole, but I play one on TV!

Posted by: Chgo_Liz | June 26, 2009 2:29 PM

counsel @ #150:

This is how you decide to wade into the waters? Having read about the 3 post minimum before people come down on you hard, even?

Concern trolls aren't even fun to play with.

Posted by: Jim Lynn | June 26, 2009 2:33 PM

@dogmeatIB #153

"based on...?"

Reading some of the research on the outcomes of home education. http://www.pjrothermel.com/Research/Researchpaper/BERAworkingpaper.htm

I'd also recommend 'Teach Your Own' by John Holt. http://www.amazon.com/Teach-Your-Own-John-Homeschooling/dp/0738206946

All of John Holt's books are worth reading. His earlier books were written as a teacher seeking out better ways to teach. His later books show someone who has gradually become disillusioned with the school system and who eventually came to advocate home education as a better option.

If your politics lean towards the left, you might appreciate John Taylor Gatto: http://www.amazon.com/Dumbing-Down-Curriculum-Compulsory-Schooling/dp/0865714487

Posted by: Xenithrys | June 26, 2009 2:36 PM

"So the McDaniels huddled with two other families and formed a team of 18 players ages 12 to 18."

Do the math. It's just possible without being polygamous, and if they let girls play.

Posted by: maureen Brian | June 26, 2009 2:43 PM

Jim Lynn,

Fine, you took your children out of the local school. I respect your right to do that but as another UK bod would be interested to know on what basis you made the decision.

Some of us, though, have been faced with a similar dilemma and chose to address it in an entirely different way. I say we chose because I know I'm not the only one to have done this.

I took that brainpower and the accompanying muscle into trying to improve the defective school - in my case as a parent governor. There are other ways to do much the same.

The improvement didn't happen instantly. It was not straightforward, in fact at one stage it completely hit the buffers but in the end it worked. If you look at the school's website and its Ofsted report you might begin to believe how much can be done even in the most challenging cases. I played only a tiny part but I'm proud of that little bit.

And my kid who went there? She's doing fine and now, approaching 40, she's doing a degree in classics - for fun!

Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | June 26, 2009 2:54 PM

"THERE ARE NO EXCEPTIONS!"

SEIG HEIL!

wtf

Posted by: Jadehawk, OM | June 26, 2009 2:57 PM

These are "eggcorns." Google for lolz.

awesomeness. I especially like bludgeon/bloodgeon and diuretic/diarrhetic

Posted by: tsg | June 26, 2009 3:00 PM

C'mon PZ... not all homeschoolers are God Botherers.

No, but this one is.

Posted by: Jim Lynn | June 26, 2009 3:03 PM

@maureen Brian #178

See my previous post (#174) for some of the reading which informed my decision.

Selfishly, I also enjoy being with my children and seeing them grow and learn. I love talking to them about things they are interested in. I love telling them about things they've never heard about. And I really love the way they suddenly demonstrate something they've learned that I didn't even know they were looking at.

These are all things that pretty much every parent does with their children. We just get to do it all the time. We're very lucky.

Posted by: Benjamin Franklin | June 26, 2009 3:10 PM

The ignorance in Georgia is not limited to the home-schooled, nor the religious. Sadly, it is pervasive and afflicts the state government as well.

A case in point; For over two years as I drove to work each day, I was submitted to the mind-numbing stupidity of a road sign, placed by the Georgia Department of Transportation that read-

Suwanee - 14 miles
Duluth - 14 miles

(note- Duluth is located directly south of Suwanee on this highway)

I shudder to think how many bureaucratic hands touched this project and failed to do something about it.

PS - anybody who wants to flame my dashes, commas, or semicolons; Fuck Off!

Posted by: MrMarkAZ | June 26, 2009 3:17 PM

"Be the hammer, not the nail."

Jesus might beg to differ on that one.

Posted by: dogmeatIB | June 26, 2009 3:26 PM

Jim,

There are some issues with that study. They tout that socio-economic status is irrelevant in their study, but 85%+ of their sample were employed in fields that are non-manual/unskilled. That, in and of itself is massively skewed. Also nearly 3/4 of those in the study are university educated, that's nearly the reverse of the natural proportion of college educated to non-college educated.

The commonality to all of the families studied was their high level of parent attention? Well freakin' duh. That's also why their data is a little misleading. In normal public school samples you'll find parents who pay a "high level" of attention, amazingly enough, their kids do better ... who'da thought?

A large number of the other findings aren't exactly earth shattering or surprising. Homeschool kids often have different social developmental skills? Really? And water has been determined to be "wet."

I have a question though, why did the study stop at 11? Is that a normal break in the educational process in England?

Posted by: Knockgoats | June 26, 2009 3:31 PM

I think it's the right of every parent to decide how best to raise their children. - Jim Lynn

You're wrong. Parents do not own their children, or have the right to indoctrinate them or keep them ignorant. I'm not against homeschooling, but it needs to be regulated to prevent such abuses.

Posted by: Steve_C | June 26, 2009 3:38 PM

I suggest home schooling parents read " A Nation Of Wimps". by Hara Estroff Marano

Posted by: Jim Lynn | June 26, 2009 3:41 PM

@dogmeatIB

I'm not sure why the study stopped at 11, although that is a definite break between 'primary' and 'secondary' school in the UK. A lot of the data came from the US so there's no reason why it had to cut off. I suspect it stems from there not actually being many studies in the field.

And you're right that a lot of the insights seem unsurprising. That's another reason I found it convincing.

As for the skewedness of the sample, that's probably unavoidable while home education is as uncommon as it is. But it's not enough to invalidate the results in themselves.

It's true also that children whose parents are engaged with their education do better, but I can't imagine how you'd control for that in a study. It seems a fundamental part of why you home edcuate.

Thanks for reading the report, though. If you ever get a chance, read some John Holt too. Even if it doesn't change your mind at all, he's a good writer.

Posted by: fly44d | June 26, 2009 3:50 PM

Not arguing with anyone, just commenting. My daughters were home schooled via the local (Nor Cal) school district homeschool program and are currently nicely secular, intelligent, articulate young ladies in college. I am very proud of them and happy with that program. The program exits because of the rural nature of the area. With school district curriculum and weekly support with lab classes and tutor center, it worked very well, from my view. It was very sad to see that the rest of the district's population didn't get the same level of attention these kids got. It certainly wouldn't work for everyone, but it is definitely an example of how homeschooling can be done right.

Posted by: greg | June 26, 2009 3:53 PM

@ #86:

Angela Lansbury would indeed be perfect for the role of Madame Arcati. Margaret Rutherford will always be my favourite, from the 1945 film version.

They seem to be suited to the same roles :) Both of them also played Miss Marple, and the title of Murder, She Wrote was taken from the Miss Marple story Murder, She Said - filmed with Rutherford.

Posted by: R-Tam | June 26, 2009 3:56 PM

Ugh, fucking typos... I meant star, not start.

Posted by: toucantoad | June 26, 2009 4:07 PM

My cousin home-schooled her children at grade school age out of necessity. The family lived on a remote New Mexico ranch and having them attend a public or private school would have required boarding them or some similar strategy. When they got old enough, she worked for her teacher certification in science and moved into town with the kids on weekdays when she taught (very successfully) high school science. Her oldest daughter is a physician and the younger daughter and son have been very successful in business interprises.
For myself, as a biology professor I simply do not know which of my freshmen undergraduate students are home-schooled, church-schooled, or public-schooled - they all show a predilection for creationism and have little respect for my introducing them to the use of methdological naturalism in approaching origins, adaptations, relationships, and so on. Many of our public school science teachers are either creationist or so afraid of parent creationism that they treat evolution teaching units as "here's what some (not all) scientists say, I leave your acceptance of it up to you." I see no particular trend that home-schoolers do that more than public-schoolers. On the positive side, many of these kids do have critical thinking skills and come around to rationality by the time they're upper classmen/women. But some don't and yet answer enough test questions correctly to get biology degrees.

Posted by: Seriously? | June 26, 2009 4:30 PM

It seems to me that the sign reflects much more strongly on jocks and meatheads than it does on homeschoolers.

Since I highly doubt that "Coach McDaniels" was homeschooled (based on the rarity of homeschooling 40 years ago), his lack of spelling skills is the fault of PUBLIC schools, not homeschooling.

#161 hit the nail on the head, by the way.

Incidentally, I was homeschooled until college. I was the first ever National Merit Finalist in my county (this was only about 7 years ago), which the local anti-homeschoolers *hated*. Graduated from college magna cum laude, now I'm a successful PhD grad student studying biochemistry.

Meanwhile, almost none of my public-school friends from my hometown ever went to college.

Homeschooling works.

Posted by: tsg | June 26, 2009 4:48 PM

Since I highly doubt that "Coach McDaniels" was homeschooled (based on the rarity of homeschooling 40 years ago), his lack of spelling skills is the fault of PUBLIC schools, not homeschooling.

So the fact that he's teaching his children doesn't bother you?

#161 hit the nail on the head, by the way.

Your concern is noted, as well as your lack of reading comprehension.

Incidentally, I was homeschooled until college. I was the first ever National Merit Finalist in my county (this was only about 7 years ago), which the local anti-homeschoolers *hated*. Graduated from college magna cum laude, now I'm a successful PhD grad student studying biochemistry.

Meanwhile, almost none of my public-school friends from my hometown ever went to college.

Homeschooling works.

Anecdote != data

Posted by: Ed Darrell | June 26, 2009 4:59 PM

I was the first National Merit Scholar from my town. But I went to the public schools.

As a teacher now, I recognize that there are factors well beyond the school that affect such stuff, especially whether mom and dad read science to the kids.

You know the best part of reading science to the kids? They thank you later, and they are genuine about it. That's the good stuff.

Posted by: Phodopus | June 26, 2009 5:34 PM

@Bisch

"After all, 90% of you guys here are grade-A assholes"

Right on, let's talk about attempts at coherence and toning down emotions already!

Posted by: Phodopus | June 26, 2009 5:43 PM

oh all right, thats also a way to say it

Posted by: dogmeatIB | June 26, 2009 6:20 PM

Both of you, tone down the emotion a notch. It's making me uncomfortable to read your attempts at coherency.

If 90% of us are assholes, then why are you bothering to read what we have to say? I don't know if I'm an asshole or not, you haven't established any criteria and haven't let me know if I made the grade, but I don't go looking for assholes to find out what they think and what they are saying yet you do. What does that say about you?

Posted by: Ryan | June 26, 2009 7:23 PM

I remember I caused a huge controversy back in high school when we were told to list our priorities. I said school was #1 followed by god at #2. There were comments about that for weeks.

Of course I did end up being the Valedictorian and was one of the few that managed to escape that town.

Posted by: Carlie | June 26, 2009 8:07 PM

Adam, not the community, just most of you here. See the difference?

No. But then again, I went to public school.

Posted by: Rolan le Gargéac | June 26, 2009 8:43 PM

daveau #57

At least they didn't add apostrophes.

That's coz they don't know what asstropofiz is !
Oh ! Weight !

Weight these

incredible
unbelievable
unscientific

I really is pioused this neet ...

Posted by: zrt | June 26, 2009 8:53 PM

I too was homeschooled until college and have had my fair share of experiences with the fundamentalist crowd. However annoying they can be at times, they are not bad people. I can also attest to the fact that a MUCH higher percentage of my homeschooled friends (most of whom can be considered as fundamentalists) have gone off to college, both religious and secular, that my non-homeschooled friends.

These people are not dumb, as evident by the quality of the colleges they have gotten into. I am happy to say that more than a few of them have "seen the light" while in college and abandoned many of their fundamentalist beliefs. Ironically, I think that, for the most part, homeschooling is giving these people an excellent education that leads them to think for themselves once they are free from the brainwashing influence of their parents.

Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook | June 26, 2009 9:54 PM

I'm confused by the general theme I'm picking up, in which it seems that homeschooling is either TERRIBLE or BRILLIANT. Why isn't it just an obvious "duh" that it's situational?

Some is bloody awful, some is great, and at a guess probably most is middling. Though I wouldn't rule out a possible bimodal distribution, with fundies in one lump and gifted kids in bad school districts in the other lump.

Posted by: Dr. P | June 26, 2009 10:12 PM

@ 213,

Although I would argue that a rather low percentage of black and brown people are assholes

Posted by: Jack Krebs | June 26, 2009 11:06 PM

Uh, I'm surprised, given the topic of this thread, that no one commented on post 49: "So who approved the sign, the coach, principle or the parent teacher council?"

I have principles, but I work for a principal.

This is, of course, much less egregious than the spelling errors on the sign, though.

Posted by: GMacs | June 26, 2009 11:47 PM

Yes sir. Wees all dumb folk down her in da south.

Not to bash ALL of you Rev, but think about your more famous products:

Bush Sr.; Bush Jr. (yeah, technically he's a New England boy, but he doesn't know that); Pat Robertson; the entire Confederacy.

Yeah, you got folks like Colbert, but it's hard to find the good ones 'cause they all cover their accents.

That said, I have known many intelligent South'ners.

Posted by: gwen | June 27, 2009 5:09 AM

Damn #231 you beat me to the punch! (or should that be 'beet'?)
Anecdote is not proof. Home schooling is variable,just as public and private schools are. I have seen it done well, and I have seen incompetent teachers put our incompetent products in all these venues! If your parents did it well, good on you! We are not talking about you! This idiot put up a sign in a public place with multiple misspellings. Poor quality control at the very least, and he allowed his name to be placed on it. This makes HIM responsible. AND open to ridicule! All of the words that were misspelled, could have been easily spelled by a 6th grader.

Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage | June 27, 2009 7:01 AM

GMacs #234

the entire Confederacy

Judah P. Benjamin was considered one of the most intelligent men of his day. He was successively Jefferson Davis' Attorney General, Secretary of War, and Secretary of State.

Posted by: Tasha | June 27, 2009 4:36 PM

While this homeschool athletics league has its priorities messed up, I really hate to see all homeschoolers painted with the same religious brush.

There are many secular/atheist/freethinking homeschoolers. I happen to be one of them and I'm not alone. My homeschool park day is made up of 80% atheists/agnostics, 10% undecided and 10% religious (although not uber-right wing) homeschoolers.

There are national yahoo groups for secular homeschoolers and blogrolls like this one http://www.odonnellweb.com/wiki/pmwiki.php that cater to the secular homeschooling crowd.

It's not just the religious right that homeschool anymore (although those on the sign clearly lean that way).

Some of us homeschool for academic reasons. Some because we just like to spend time with our kids and enjoy a family centered lifestyle. Some homeschool because our local school system was clearly failing to meet the needs of our kids, others because we believe that each kid should be given the opportunity to learn in a way that best suits their learning style, etc.

While the homeschooling landscape might have been dominated by the religious right a couple of decades ago, things have changed and the homeschooling world is as diverse as the population at large.

Atheist, holder of graduate degree and homeschooling parent to two kids

Posted by: Sven DiMilo | June 27, 2009 6:20 PM

I summon Electric Barbarella to the thread!
Toni! There is homeschooling stereotyping going on over here!!

Posted by: Rey Fox | June 27, 2009 7:32 PM

"...Why do I always feel a terrible malaise whenever I read or hear people put God in front of their very own family? It just strikes me as a terrible thing to do."

"Well He can shove His Law up His Ass, if just one word of it says I can't stand by my friend."

-Ennis 24:23

Posted by: epe | June 28, 2009 4:48 PM

Actually, use this one instead.

Posted by: amphiox | June 28, 2009 6:08 PM

"the entire Confederacy"

One has to say, though, that through most of the course of the Civil War, it was the Confederate military leaders who demonstrated the superior tactical and strategic skills. Up until Grant and Sherman came along, Union military adventures were mostly a compendium of blunders, with most of the successes they had purely dumb luck and weight of numbers.

Posted by: Carlie | June 28, 2009 8:40 PM

But on this site there seems to be no differentiation between evangelistic escapist education and homeschooling that is undertaken as a protest against what now passes for education.

What's your opinion on the term "unschooling"? I've heard it used as a term by people like yourself to distinguish them, but I've also seen people who think it's not a good term to use.

Posted by: Dan O'Reilly | June 29, 2009 11:25 AM

While I had a yuk about the ignorance of the middle school (home school) football coach (Acedemics(?)), part of the joke is on PZ. If he contacted his Director of Admissions, he would probably be shocked to learn that his school (the U of MN) recruits home schoolers and is considered a Tier One institution (whatever that means) by home school organizations. I'm confident PZ has kids who were home schooled in his classes. Gone are the days where home school meant a kid with behavior issues and parents who didn't want to deal with school officials.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | June 29, 2009 12:11 PM

I can also attest to the fact that a MUCH higher percentage of my homeschooled friends (most of whom can be considered as fundamentalists) have gone off to college, both religious and secular, that my non-homeschooled friends.

This is hardly a surprise, and in and of itself no evidence whatsoever regarding the effectiveness of homeschooling: Quite obviously, families willing to devote the time and resources required to homeschool are among those that place the very highest importance on education... and family commitment to education is by all accounts the single most important determinant of educational success.

So effectively what you've said is that a subset of the educational population defined by the characteristic most likely to produce success in fact produces success at a greater rate than the general population. Yup. And water is wet, too.

My suspicion is that those families would, by virtue of their willingess to do whatever is required for educational success, would produce students who graduated and went to college at pretty much the identical rate even if they stayed within the public system. The difference is that, if they stayed engaged with the public schools, the whole community would benefit from their devotion to good education, in addition to their own children.

I can't speak for other homeschooling skeptics, but for me, anecdotes and even real data regarding the success of homeschooling for individual students and families just misses the point: Since I believe the true goal of public education is to enable democracy and improve the whole community, the prospect of sucking the best and most committed families out of the system so their children can prosper in splendid isolation strikes me as a Bug, Not a Feature™.

And the people who protest that "not all of us homeschoolers are religious nuts" bug me the most. It seems to me that there are three likely motivations for homeschooling: Ideological (which term I take to include, but not be limited to, religious) objections to the supposed "state indoctrination" of public schools, concerns about the quality (including the social environment) of the public schools, and specific emotional and/or intellectual characteristics that make individual students poorly suited for learning in a large social environment. Of these three, the last is effectively remedial, and no reasonable person I know would argue against alternative modalities when they're clearly indicated. The first is usually (IMHO) wrongheaded, in that public education is truly mostly fact-based and nonideological, and beliefs to the contrary are typically vaguely paranoid nods to dogma and ignorance; at least the loss of these families' energy and commitment is offset to some degree by the exclusion of their obnoxious dogmatism.

But the middle group — those rational, fact-based, nondogmatists whose beef with the public education system is quality — really piss me off. Their kids are probably going to succeed to the limit of their intellectual gifts in any case, owing to their parents' focus and energy... but by denying the rest of the community access to that focus and energy, and to those potentially high-value members of the classroom, these families are doing positive harm to their society. If they put half the energy they spend on homeschooling into improving their local schools (e.g., through serving on school boards; involvement in PTOs; volunteering as teacher's aides, tutors, or coaches; and just general active parenting), everyone would be better off... including, BTW, their own kids, because whatever tiny peak of pedagagical hyperoptimization they might give up would be by far offset by the improved sense of connectedness to their community.

My argument against homeschooling has never been that it doesn't work (I do actually believe there are some benefits of school that can't effectively be replicated in homeschooling, but that's a minor, tangential point); my argument is that it's selfish, and not good for the larger society.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | June 29, 2009 12:28 PM

AG:

In our case, the parents role approximates that of a reference librarian, helping children find out more about what they want to know, and modeling life long learning and active rather than passive activities.

You really think that children can teach themselves everything they need to know to become productive, self-sustaining members of the community with no more direction or active teaching than what a "reference librarian" would provide?

I'm all for a reasonable amount of self-directed learning, and for encouraging a commitment to lifelong learning... but some skills and ways of thinking need to be taught, and some orderedness of learning is important, too. Most kids won't successfully teach themselves algebra, let alone calculus, just through the good offices of a reference library. And kid who falls in love with physics before she teaches herself algebra is likely to founder in potentially spirit-crushing confusion and frustration.

This is not even to mention all the practical skills — musical performance, athletics, wood and auto shop, studio arts, writing and speaking in a foreign language, etc. — the learning of which transcends the covers of books or the walls of the reference library (or its virtual, online equivalent).

Even Montressori schools don't just set their students adrift on a sea of knowledge and let them just scoop up whatever the hell they please. In my previous comment, I said that homeschooling was selfish; your version of it, though, strikes me as lazy.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | June 29, 2009 2:08 PM

Cathy:

I strongly disagree that homeschooling parents are selfish.

No doubt you do, but the rest of your post doesn't really rebut my position, which is primarily philosophical.

I think your portrayal of schools (which, BTW, would in principle apply to all institutional schools, whether public, private, or charter) as dystopian factories of conformity, determined to squeeze any spark of indivduality or creativity out of every student, is hyperbolic and counterfactual. I can't evaluate how well you've represented Holt's thoughts, and I was only a child in the early 60s when Holt was formulating his ideas, but this picture has not been borne out by my three-and-a-half decades of more-or-less continual engagement with public schools as a student, teacher, and parent, starting when I entered high school in 1973. But in any case, that wasn't my point!

My point about homeschooling being "selfish" was that homeschoolers — and in particular, those who are not motivated by ideology or religion — are putting their own individual families' needs ahead of the larger good of the community... and your post generally confirms that.

If you want to argue that preferring your own good over the community's is acceptable or even preferable, that's a conversation we can have (I would disagree, because I believe that in the long run, if everything is accounted for, what's best for all of us is also what truly best for each of us)... but don't pretend that's not what you're doing.

In fact, your assertion that the quality of public schools, and the reasonableness of the laws that govern them, are beyond the reach of your influence strikes me as an even broader, and more discouraging, cynical abandonment of the republic's founding principles: You're opting out of not only the public schools, but of the very notion that our public institutions arise from the people. I expect this sort of stuff from self-declared L-word-arians; I'm always a bit surprised to hear it from others.

Finally, on this...

...that there are way too many bored and broken results from that system

...we can agree, though I'm sure we disagree on the root causes. I suspect very few of these cases are attributable to school per se: Many are no doubt the result of coming from bored and broken homes and communities to begin with (i.e., not your kids, right?). Many others have been ill-served by individually bad schools, not because the concept of school is inherently flawed, but because those schools, and the communities they serve, have been neglected and abandoned by families with higher aspirations.

How do you imagine leaving the "bored and broken" behind to fend for themselves could possibly improve — or even sustain — the world in which your own bright, interested, intact kids will grow up to live in? We are all each other's neighbors at the end of the day, and our lives are only as pleasant and secure as our neighborhood.

Or so it seems to me.

Posted by: africangenesis | June 30, 2009 2:42 AM

Bill Dauphin,

"You really think that children can teach themselves everything they need to know to become productive, self-sustaining members of the community with no more direction or active teaching than what a "reference librarian" would provide?"

I was actually a bit shocked to find that when my children breezed through math on their own, because in my own public school experience, I was teacher dependent for math learning. Other than math, I think I actually learned more on my own during the summers than when wasting so much time in the one size fits all factory model schools. But I thought math was an exception.

Unschooling is not religiously wedded to passive parental involvement, when the child wants instruction, of course it is given, and when they want advanced skills or instruction, mentors doing real things in the world are sought. The point is, their learning is self motivated and on their schedule and exploiting their own interests. Mammalian children want to learn and become adults. The human version is no exception despite the privilege of being the top predator. It they don't get turned off along the way, they will become adults with good survival chances, descended from a long line of evolutionarily fit survivors.

Yes, unschooling did turn out to be the lazy alternative, although we didn't start out on it that way. It was fun and easy not to have the stress of the school and homework day dominating our schedule. It was fun to share our love of history reading aloud as a family. It has to be an embarrassment to the public schools that doing so much less is actually more productive. Even though our taxes to the public school during the school year, could not have covered the costs that public schools run up turning off our children, it still would have been nice to have them to invest in our own children instead of destroying the children of others. We might have been able to afford another trip or two to Europe. The one we saved and prepared for for two years was well worth the expense.

What kind of parent institutionalizes their children? I speak out against to abomination that is public schooling, what do you do?

Posted by: africangenesis | June 30, 2009 5:20 AM

Papahans,

"In our case, besides missing our children too much, we homeschooled them because there was too little science, particularly evolution, and too much goddamn religion and entirely santiized history taught for our taste. There is a large, and largely hidden, secular homeschooling movement and group out there...check it out."

In our case, it was too much teaching to the test, too much caving in to peer culture and too much emphasis on grades, pleasing the teacher and competing with other classes. Where was the emphasis on learning? These age segregated factory model schools are an unnatural phenomenon of the last century or so. Children survive them, not thrive in them. They are supposed to thrive, they naturally love learning.

In my experience the secular homeschooling movement is largely libertarian, perhaps that is why it flies under the radar. They don't want to attract government attention, and they don't want to run other peoples lives. The Libertarian Party's VP candidate (Wayne Allen Root) was a homeschooling parent, but it wasn't a point of emphasis.

If you know of a homeschooling movement within the secular/progressives as well, it would help if you could share how you address the objections from the collectivist statists within their value system.

Posted by: africangenesis | June 30, 2009 10:19 AM

Bill Dauphin,

"But even if you assume that every subject is potentially self-teachable by young children (an assumption that strikes me as wildly implausible on its face,"

I wouldn't argue this. We were strongly influenced by a book "Better Late than Early" that argued that children are put into a verbally oriented formal lecture structure before they are ready, and cited studies that showed that 10-12 year olds can make up for all the lost prior years of education in less that 6 months. My youngest daughter didn't read until age 11, but within two years was reading Shakespeare aloud to her younger brother and they both were ENJOYING it. I still have to work to find movie adaptations of shakespeare accessible. We don't need to take away their childhoods. We should respect the value of their time, and not waste it imposing a formal education before they are ready. It may be selfish to restrict our parenting to our own biological children. We have considered adopting for this reason.

Posted by: Rorschach | July 1, 2009 12:12 PM

Bill D,

AG won't be responding by the looks of it.

Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 1, 2009 12:22 PM

AG won't be responding

Ah, well, I'll just have to bear up under the weight of my disappointment, eh? ;^)

Hopefully it was worth saying anyway, as Bernard has so kindly suggested.

Posted by: ElectricBarbarella | July 3, 2009 5:28 PM

Oh, I did want to comment on the homeschool vs home school vs home education thing.

While I suppose, technically, home school should be two words (just as is the case with public school), it is generally accepted that homeschool can be either one or two words. You will find most professional publications spelling it "home schooling" and calling us "homeschoolers" (why the difference, I do not know) as opposed to being pedantic about making it two words every time.

Personally, I just call myself a homeschooler and leave it at that. I don't make the distinction between homeschooler vs home educator as much as some do. But either way you look at it, Jim is correct in calling it homeschooling(er) as well as home educator as well as home schooling(er).

toni
(incidentally, my spell check makes "home school" two words, but "homeschooler" one and preschooler and preschool one word as well. I honestly cannot tell you why this is so except that maybe it is a general consensus versus an academic one)