…and this is a 
One of those right-wing circle-jerks has been going on in Virginia, and the wingnuts are vying to see who can be holiest — it looks like a contest between Newt Gingrich and Mike Huckabee. It's boring, except, I think, for the revelation about the nature of God.
Huckabee was not to be outdone in the use of hyperbole. The former Republican presidential candidate called the United States a "blessed" nation whose victory against the British in the Revolutionary War was "a miracle from God's hand," indeed the same type of miracle that defeated the legalization of gay marriage in California.
Since we know how both of those victories were accomplished, that tells us something about the nature of the agent behind them. Thanks to Mike Huckabee, we now know that God is a) French, and b) Mormon.
Comments
Posted by: Geoff Rogers | June 7, 2009 9:42 AM
What's wrong with the French?
Mormons, ok, we know what's wrong with them.
The French gave us lots of good cheese.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 7, 2009 9:49 AM
Huckabee was not to be outdone in the use of hyperbole. The former Republican presidential candidate called the United States a "blessed" nation whose victory against the British in the Revolutionary War was "a miracle from God's hand," indeed the same type of miracle that defeated the legalization of gay marriage in California.
The campaign in Iowa for the 2012 caucus is going to be ugly. Fuckabee won it last time. Gay Iowans might want to purchase firearms.
(Yes, hyperbolic, but I'll put down cash there's an increase in anti-gay violence during the Republican campaign--gay folks are going to be a major issue because they can get married in Iowa, and whenever the anti-gay movement pulls out its hate rhetoric, gay people get assaulted.)
Posted by: bric | June 7, 2009 9:53 AM
Podsnappery!
(no. 3)
http://scienceblogs.com/evolutionblog/2009/06/surrounded_by_paganists.php#comments
Posted by: Orson Zedd
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June 7, 2009 9:53 AM
Geoff Rogers @ #1
PZ is referring to how the French were basically the key to US victory in the Revolutionary War.
Posted by: Sastra
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June 7, 2009 9:58 AM
I love that Gingrich thinks that "we are living in a period where we are surrounded by paganism." That's right, baby, piss off the pagans.
People who want to bring religion into government often like to try to gain as much support as possible by talking about a generic God, generic prayer, generic worship to a "Higher Power," however you see it. All spiritual paths are valid. We are all bound together by a common commitment to faith. We are a believing people. Blah, blah, blah. Translation: let's all gang up on the atheists.
Well, when it comes to church/state separation, we've got the pagans on our side now. And they'll turn you into a newt.
Posted by: Lynnai | June 7, 2009 9:58 AM
a French Mormon? Just imagine the cocktail parties.....
Posted by: Matt Penfold | June 7, 2009 10:00 AM
Do you think Huckabee also thinks god is a Vietnamese communist ? Or does he have some other explanation for the US defeat in Vietnam ?
Posted by: Feynmaniac | June 7, 2009 10:15 AM
Mike Huckabee knows something about miracles. After all, during the primary after it was mathematically impossible for him to win the Republican nomination he said:
A miracle happened and he won the Republican nomination and then the Presidency....oh wait no, sorry. He was heavily defeated by John McCain, his party lost the election big time and as a result the Democrats now control the Presidency, the House and the Senate.
John Huckabee sucks at this miracle thing.
Posted by: Diego
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June 7, 2009 10:18 AM
That was great PZ!
And the answer to your question, Penfold, is that obviously the Devil is a Vietnamese Communist.
Posted by: JenBurdoo | June 7, 2009 10:23 AM
Well, France's entry was conditional on the Americans winning at least one real battle on their own, and that was Saratoga. That may not have been due so much to American effort or God's grace, though, as to God's curse on the 24th Foot of the British Army. This being the same unlucky regiment that, in addition to being captured at Saratoga, was captured by the French in the Napoleonic Wars, decimated by disease, destroyed by the Sikhs, Zulus and Germans, and generally crapped on all over the world. When they joined Johnny Burgoyne, his expedition was bound to fail.
Posted by: Invigilator
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June 7, 2009 10:24 AM
If God is a French Mormon, Mitt Romney (who did his Mormon missionary stint in France) will be the next President.
Posted by: Levi in NY | June 7, 2009 10:24 AM
So wait, God caused Prop 8 to pass in California? You mean it wasn't the aggregate of the free wills of the California voters? Did God rig the election?
Posted by: JenBurdoo | June 7, 2009 10:28 AM
Well, France's entry was conditional on the Americans winning at least one real battle on their own, and that was Saratoga. That may not have been due so much to American effort or God's grace, though, as to God's curse on the 24th Foot of the British Army. This being the same unlucky regiment that, in addition to being captured at Saratoga, was captured by the French twice, decimated by disease, destroyed by the Sikhs, Zulus and Germans, and generally crapped on all over the world. When they joined Johnny Burgoyne, his expedition was bound to fail.
Of course, that has nothing to do with God, it just means that statistically, SOMEONE had to be the unluckiest regiment of the lot.
Posted by: Piltdown Man | June 7, 2009 10:29 AM
Sastra @ 5:
I doubt he was specifically referring to the devotees of neo-pagan religions like Wicca or Asatru -- he probably just meant "non-Christian and potentially anti-Christian forces".
Posted by: Mattand | June 7, 2009 10:30 AM
"Thanks to Mike Huckabee, we now know that God is a) French, and b) Mormon."
That tracks perfectly with the South Park episode where it was revealed that only Mormons were allowed into Heaven as it was the "right" religion, whereas everyone else was sent to Hell for not guessing correctly.
Posted by: JenBurdoo | June 7, 2009 10:32 AM
Oops. Sorry for the double post.
Posted by: Drosera
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June 7, 2009 10:44 AM
Mormons are like grown up people who still believe in Santa Claus. It is impossible to take them seriously. They are living proof that people can believe
almostanything, no matter how dumb and implausible it is. I shudder to think that a Mormon could become president of the United States. They might just as well appoint Bozo the Clown.Posted by: Justin | June 7, 2009 10:57 AM
With all the progress that gays have made recently, especially in regards to marriage rights, I'm betting on an anti-gay hate rhetoric from the right that will make 2004 look tame.
Posted by: Lynna | June 7, 2009 11:00 AM
Regarding the Mormon God in France -- apparently it's hard to push him there. Here's an excerpt from a blog where former Mormon missionaries post stories:
See http://www.exmormon.org/mormon/mormon214.htm for the source.
Posted by: xebecs | June 7, 2009 11:03 AM
JenBurdoo: That's okay, it was a good one.
Posted by: Knockgoats | June 7, 2009 11:05 AM
I shudder to think that a Mormon could become president of the United States. They might just as well appoint Bozo the Clown. - Drosera@17
They can't - he's already had his two terms.
Posted by: Tulse | June 7, 2009 11:07 AM
So believing in magic golden plates is silly, but believing a Jewish virgin gave birth to a kid who made wine out of water and later turned into a zombie makes more sense?
I know it's common to deride the absurdity of Mormon beliefs, but I think "mainstream" Christian beliefs are just as idiotic, and only seem less silly because of familiarity.
Posted by: Nominal Egg | June 7, 2009 11:10 AM
And, evidently, stronger than that French Morman god twit.
Posted by: Rorschach | June 7, 2009 11:11 AM
Couldnt agree more !!!
Posted by: Don | June 7, 2009 11:13 AM
JenBurdoo,
Looked up the 24th.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/South_Wales_Borderers
Strewth, joining that regiment seems to have been the equivalent to wearing a red shirt on Star Trek.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3cL1Aofy90
Posted by: Drosera
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June 7, 2009 11:22 AM
Tulse:
Quite right, but somehow I think the Mormon beliefs are funnier. And their holy book is an even more obvious fabrication than the Bible. It has 'fraud' written all over it, and still those idiots believe it is all true.
Posted by: raven | June 7, 2009 11:25 AM
A lie. The USA is 76% xian right now. Gingrich is just pulling the old xian persecution card out. "We are a persecuted majority of only 3/4 of the population."
Would it be too much to hope a Theothuglican leader could do third grade math?
And what is wrong with being surrounded by Pagans anyway? They aren't trying to destroy the USA and sponsoring domestic terrorism like the xian Death Cults.
Not that Paganism ascendency is true either. I read somewhere that there are only a few tens of thousands of Wiccans, out of a population of 320 million. I doubt that Real Pagans counting the Norse, Greek, and other religions all together even makes up 1% of the population.
What we are surrounded by is violent, lying xian Death Cults who openly hate the USA and want to destroy it. That is something to worry about.
Posted by: Knockgoats | June 7, 2009 11:30 AM
I doubt he [Gingrich] was specifically referring to the devotees of neo-pagan religions like Wicca or Asatru -- he probably just meant "non-Christian and potentially anti-Christian forces". - Pilty
Could be. Like all conservative Catholics, he has trouble getting through a sentence without making a complete idiot of himself by such misuses of language.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 7, 2009 11:31 AM
God is a Swiss tennis player.
Posted by: Rorschach | June 7, 2009 11:47 AM
God is a Swiss tennis player.
Eric Clapton is Swiss and plays Tennis?
*Confused*
Posted by: blf | June 7, 2009 11:54 AM
Hang on, hang on, I live in France. I thought I was safe from those basturds here (the mormoms and the gods, that is). Do you mean I might, one day, spot the face of an idiot in my cheese?
Posted by: Sastra
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June 7, 2009 12:00 PM
raven #27 wrote:
In part, yes. But I suspect that Piltdown Man's right, and Gingrich is using the term "pagan" in a loose, sloppy sense, probably combining non-christian religions with secularism and even postmodernism. I'm also going to guess that by referring specifically to 'paganISM,' as opposed to actual pagans, Gingrich is addressing attitude, and trying to score points against liberal Christians (and, maybe, if the listener is so inclined, Catholics).
Diversity scares them. "Paganism" is code word for liberalized or adulterated religion, and the temptation for fundies to choose and borrow attractive bits of morals or voodoo from the religious smorgasbord is strong.
Fundamentalist Christians really hate that 'many spiritual paths to God' all-religions-are-really-one trope. We see some of the same flaws they do, but don't try to claim that the conflicts can be solved by finding the ONE right way to do and have faith. No, they're pretty much all equally right -- which makes the method itself wrong.
Posted by: Notagod | June 7, 2009 12:01 PM
Well, except that the mor[m]ons believe in the cracker guy as well. It's just that they think all other cracker worshipers are less than worthy and not up to the task. Mormons are a case of two idiots in one. Two negatives make a positive doesn't work when two piles of shit are combined.
Posted by: Tyler | June 7, 2009 12:02 PM
I hate it when people belittle great accomplishments by calling them simply miracles by god's hand. Washington was an amazing general, the French were invaluable allies, and the colonists were dead-set with determination. Never once in that war did god squish a single British soldier with a giant Monty Python foot. (I would think THAT might make it into the history books)
I became an atheist after spending enough time in the boy scouts to realize that all the good in the world comes from people. In my ten years in the organization I never once saw god feeding the hungry or dressing the poor. I did, however, watch as people with god on the mind kicked a good friend out of the BSA for being homosexual.
Posted by: Colugo | June 7, 2009 12:10 PM
"Washington was an amazing general"
Who could punch out a polar bear.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ANpnPSlwm1M&feature=related
Posted by: Irene Delse | June 7, 2009 12:14 PM
"Thanks to Mike Huckabee, we now know that God is a) French, and b) Mormon."
Well... There's a German proverb defining the height of happiness as being "happy as God in France". But I didn't know one should add "Mormon" to the mix.
Posted by: llewelly | June 7, 2009 12:19 PM
Tulse | June 7, 2009 11:07 AM:
Legends about preposterous miracles become truer and truer as they get older and older, don'cha'know?
Posted by: africangenesis | June 7, 2009 12:29 PM
"Thanks to Mike Huckabee, we now know that God is a) French, and b) Mormon."
c) black -- It was that black vote that swung California. The result might well be different in an election without Obama.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 7, 2009 12:34 PM
c) black -- It was that black vote that swung California. The result might well be different in an election without Obama
Nope. Even with an overwhelming (and what appears to be overstated) African American vote, the gap was wide enough that Prop 8 would have passed without the "black vote" (Nate Silver).
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/prop-8-myths.html
Posted by: Knockgoats | June 7, 2009 12:36 PM
Washington was an amazing general, the French were invaluable allies, and the colonists were dead-set with determination.
Washington amazing? It's not a war I've studied in detail, but he lost most of his engagements, until he had French troops with him. Saratoga, which brought the French in, was won by Horatio Gates.
British strategic incompetence and lack of realism also had a lot to do with the result. It was never going to be feasible to transport enough British troops across the Atlantic to crush the rebellion completely. There were only two rational choices:
1) Concede independence immediately it was declared.
2) Grab the coastal cities and concentrate on
a) sowing discord among the colonists, in an attempt to keep the most valuable assets and prevent the consolidation of a United States of America; and
b) defeating the French navy in battle as soon as possible once France came in (rather than dispersing resources to defend Caribbean islands, as was done on the insistence of the City of London).
Of course (2) would have had unfortunate consequences for Britain, among others, in the 20th century - but possibly fortunate ones for Native Americans in the 19th.
Posted by: Rorschach | June 7, 2009 12:44 PM
More clues to God's identity!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q3ixBmDzylQ
Posted by: Tomi | June 7, 2009 12:47 PM
"What's wrong with the French?"
Where do I start?
Posted by: uncle frogy | June 7, 2009 12:47 PM
kind of fun to watch the repubs floundering around trying to figure out who will be the "Great Leader" and what they are about. How the mighty have fallen?
Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | June 7, 2009 12:54 PM
I like to think of god as a tiny, one-eyed tortoise being chased around by vultures.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | June 7, 2009 12:57 PM
"I like to think of god as a tiny, one-eyed tortoise being chased around by vultures."
Do we get to see the bit where they pick it up, fly to a height and drop it on rocks to try and smash the shell open ?
Posted by: Somnolent Aphid | June 7, 2009 1:05 PM
Remember back in 2004 when Huckabee answered his cell during a republican governers meeting and pretended to talk to god? good times. good times.
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | June 7, 2009 1:07 PM
Thomas Paine considered the separation of the colonies from Britain to be inevitable.Posted by: Daniel de Rauglaudre
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June 7, 2009 1:09 PM
We need a Barack Obama here. I propose a deal: we give you Sarkozy and you give us Obama, Ok?
Posted by: Matt Penfold | June 7, 2009 1:13 PM
We Brits could throw in Brown as well, and share Obama with the French. You can have Tony Blair free in anycase. In fact I think we might insist on it.
Posted by: Daniel de Rauglaudre
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June 7, 2009 1:19 PM
Ok, Matt!
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 7, 2009 1:21 PM
You can have Tony Blair free in anycase.
Thanks, but I, for one, will pass. Even at that price, I think we can do better.
Posted by: chanson | June 7, 2009 1:31 PM
Geez, thanks a lot Huckabee (and P.Z.) for giving away my secret identity!
Posted by: Notagod | June 7, 2009 1:32 PM
Christians claim that atheists and science are boring and uninteresting yet that is another christian fallacy. 'blessed nation', 'miracle from god', hoo-hum, another of an endless stream of miracles from the christian god idea heaped on its chosen nation, VERY boring. However, from the comments above several interesting facts are revealed once the veil of a god idea is removed. That is, Hucky would be more interesting if he had spoken from truth and knowledge instead of using the same tired 'blessed nation, miracle from the god' idea. With christians and mor[m]ons its the same quaking thing over and over and over again, no additional information to form a better understanding of truth and fact, just one endlessly repeating fantasy to bore us all.
Posted by: africangenesis | June 7, 2009 1:53 PM
MAJeff#39,
It appears that God must be latino as well as black to have gotten prop 8 passed:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2008/11/05/state/n111547S31.DTL
I don't know the number of mormon's in CA, but I suspect that they are significantly outnumbered by the blacks and latinos. God is french, latino, black and mormon. I suspect she and I have a common ancestor in the last 200,000 years.
Posted by: Sandra | June 7, 2009 1:54 PM
[bold]What's wrong with the French?
Mormons, ok, we know what's wrong with them.
The French gave us lots of good cheese.[/b]
Eh, Geoff, it was because of the French we won the war. A History lesson may be in order?
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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June 7, 2009 2:17 PM
But Blair is the man who saved Britain from the trials and tribulations suffered during Black Wednesday.
Posted by: Notagod | June 7, 2009 2:24 PM
But Blair favored the christian-bush regime god idea holy war plan.
Posted by: Tulse | June 7, 2009 2:43 PM
But, unlike Catholics, they don't believe a cracker actually becomes him. I personally think that the notion of transubstantiation is far more nutty than the notion that someone found some golden plates (and I say that as an ex-Catholic).
As I see it, there really isn't any sort of rational criteria that makes Mormon beliefs somehow more wacky or idiotic than other mainstream religions. Thus, I really don't understand the extra hostility and condescension toward Mormonism -- it seems like an irrational deference to traditional religion.
Posted by: tsig | June 7, 2009 2:46 PM
"blf | June 7, 2009 11:54 AM
Hang on, hang on, I live in France. I thought I was safe from those basturds here (the mormoms and the gods, that is). Do you mean I might, one day, spot the face of an idiot in my cheese?"
According to the RC's the only proper thing to do when confronted with Jesus is to eat him.
Posted by: Sili
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June 7, 2009 2:47 PM
Sacre Bleu! Is this the forging of a new Entente Cordiale?
I wholeheartedly approve of a united Normanofrankish Kingdom.
Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | June 7, 2009 2:54 PM
According to the RC's the only proper thing to do when confronted with Jesus is to eat him.
If you see the Christ going down the street, eat him.
Posted by: tsig | June 7, 2009 3:25 PM
You might want to kill him first, unless he manifests as a cheese Danish. Now that would be an answer to a prayer!
Posted by: Tim H | June 7, 2009 3:41 PM
The closest thing to "a miracle from God's hand," in the Revolutionary War was George Brydges Rodney's prostate problems, which forced the only competent British admiral that would serve under First Lord Sandwich to go home and have his weewee reamed, leaving a senile Admiral Graves in command. One wonders how how god's hand messed with Rodney's prostate. I hope god washed his hand afterward.
Gentleman Johnny had some tough sledding to do, but is was War Minister Germain screwing up the coordination with Howe that sealed the deal. Burgoyne was supposed to meet Howe at Albany. Howe went to Philadelphia. Oops.The war may have been unwinnable for the British. Washington had some major screwups (Long Island and Brandywine) but he learned. Lord North's administration was probably a bigger help than the French.
Posted by: Skemono
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June 7, 2009 3:55 PM
So, uh, did anyone follow the links to the Think Progress page? It's got a horrible quote from Gingrich that no-one else has commented on:
Atheists aren't citizens! You're only a citizen if you believe in God.
I'd love to know where it says that in the Constitution.
Posted by: Notagod | June 7, 2009 3:59 PM
Yeah, mormons don't have to eat the zombie because they believe they have two-way conversations with it. And instead of magic crackers the mormons actually use magic pieces of bread. The mormons just take stupid and add extra stupidity.
Posted by: Sastra
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June 7, 2009 4:00 PM
Tulse #58 wrote:
I don't know about that. The Latter-Day Saints are more vulnerable to direct criticism than many of the other religions because the Book of Mormon is supposed to be a history of the American continent literally dictated by an angel of God -- and it's wildly factually inaccurate. Since this is supposed to be the sacred source for all the later shenannigans, it's a serious and objective problem which most of the other holy texts -- and religions -- don't have.
Although there are historical and scientific errors in the Bible and Quran, the BOM's recent date and clear pedigree of transmission doesn't allow Mormons to rescue it by blithely claiming it's either metaphor, or has been mistranslated from an original, accurate text. No, the Mormons are stuck good and hard.
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 7, 2009 4:02 PM
God is a French Mormon? How can this be? I grew up believing that God was 100% American (and that Mormons were Morons who can't spell proper).
I'm shocked. For us ignorant antipodeans, The Good ol' US of A (T'GOUSA) was always also the Land o' Goshen (LOG), anointed by God and flowing with coke and money. In which other country on earth could the extended Batzrubble clan's two congenital half-wits, my Oztralian cousin Ken and my Noo Zillun cousin Ray, be banished to for gross stupidity, only to be reborn there as mighty Men of God (MOGs)?
It's because of Ken and Ray that I left my flocks to travel to T'GOUSA in the first place. I can still hear my uncle, Pancreas Batzrubble, the clan Patriarch, saying to me: "Go Smog and see if you too can become a MOG in LOG; for if such fuckwits as Ken and Ray can, even you might have a chance." Uncle Pan also said he'd cut of my jewels and feed them to a kea if I came back to Noo Zillun (but I know he meant that in a spirit of Christian love).
So here I am in T'GOUSA. The welcome was much more than I expected. I've been strip searched, probed, imprisoned, used by Floyd Rubber as a mattress, and finally released with all my worldly goods confiscated, only to be told the YHWH is a Mormon Francais. This must be my time of tribulation. But I won't give up, I'm on a 'Mission from God'™ to become SMOG a MOG in LOG. Cousin Ray is busy somewhere straightening bananas. But there's always cousin Ken. "I'm on my way Kenworth!"
(Ummm... does anyone know the way from New York's Varick Detention Facility to Petersburg KY?)
Posted by: SC, OM | June 7, 2009 4:14 PM
Prayer, prayer, prayer.
Posted by: Tyler | June 7, 2009 4:25 PM
Washington amazing? It's not a war I've studied in detail, but he lost most of his engagements, until he had French troops with him.
That is what happens when you only look at certain aspects of leadership. Washington was amazing for pretty much one reason: He was a highly charismatic leader who gained respect from his soldiers in a number of different manners. I believe they loved him most because he would often participate in the fighting. At times his men would pull him away, worried for his safety. Washington wasn't a great tactician, but he kept a bunch of untrained soldiers fighting a war against the British.
Victories for Washington were difficult in the earlier half of the war due to extremely low resources, and two other generals, Gates and Lee, were being uncooperative. You are also forgetting the Battles of Trenton and Princeton, two decisive victories that opened Saratoga and ultimately brought the French into the fight.
I think when you do look over the war, as you said you haven't, you will find that Washington was put into many unfortunate positions the outcomes of which should have been worse. He was a conservative general whose greatest achievement was simply keeping an army of farmers cohesive, at least long enough to outlast the British and hold the line until French reinforcements could tip the scales of power.
Posted by: Anton Mates | June 7, 2009 4:51 PM
MAJeff,
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2008/11/prop-8-myths.html
That's not exactly what Silver found. He found that Prop 8 would have passed without Obama's boost to the black vote. (And the new voters Obama brought in tended to vote unusually anti-8 for their demographic.) But based on the exit poll data Silver was using, if black voters had sat the election out entirely, Prop 8 would not have passed.
Of course, another study suggests that that exit poll report severely overestimated black support for 8. And it found, in common with a couple of other analyses, that the biggest factor determining support or opposition for 8 was frequency of attendance of religious services; the racial and age-based differences in support seem to follow largely from the religion-based difference.
Posted by: Lynna | June 7, 2009 5:26 PM
Posted by: Lynna | June 7, 2009 5:34 PM
And here's an excerpt from Christopher Hitchens on Mormonism:
See http://www.slate.com/id/2165033/ for more on Hitchen's description of Mormonism.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | June 7, 2009 5:36 PM
Odds are, Louis XV - along with most or all of the known Bourbon dynasty - has been registered among the millions adopted posthumously by the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints.
Louis XV spent so much of the French treasury on assisting the American revolution (both on naval intervention and supplying the majority of guns and powder) that it destabilized his kingdom, ultimately costing the life of Louis XVI in the French revolution.
In other words, he gave up the life of his son so America could live.
Now we know which Frenchman is god.
Posted by: Last Hussar | June 7, 2009 5:37 PM
More ridiculous Yank rubbish. Every one knows God is an Englishman. Who sounds like James Mason.
I look forward to the history books that show how the resistance under de Gaulle liberated France.
Also proper Americans know that the US didn't LOSE Vietnam. They were forced to pull out by Liberal Pussies.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 7, 2009 5:42 PM
More ridiculous Yank rubbish. Every one knows God is an Englishman. Who sounds like James Mason.
And is married to an Elven Queen? I seem to recall something along those lines.
Posted by: Drosera
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June 7, 2009 5:55 PM
Tulse @58,
No, no, for me it's not a matter of deference to traditional religion at all. Of course the traditional beliefs are crazy as well, no question about it. It is just that the Mormons found it necessary to add an extra icing of laughable stupidity over the rotten cake of Christianity. They believe, for example, that God lives on the planet Kolob with his wives and children. I can’t help it, but this just makes me laugh, it’s so pathetic.
Posted by: Happy Tentacles
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June 7, 2009 5:59 PM
If you've seen 'Time Bandits' you'll know - god is Ralph Richardson.
Posted by: vogonpoet
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June 7, 2009 6:01 PM
God a French Mormon! I'm still struggling with this. The French love to drink wine, smoke cigarettes and fornicate. Mormons love to... um.... Maybe this is one of those "mysteries" like the Trinity. You know - God is one person but also three. So God is a chaste fornicator who abstains from tobacco but loves to smoke and who drinks himself into a stupor while remaining totally sober.
Posted by: Ian | June 7, 2009 6:02 PM
The former Republican presidential candidate called the United States a "blessed" nation whose victory against the British in the Revolutionary War was "a miracle from God's hand," indeed the same type of miracle that defeated the legalization of gay marriage in California.
I can believe that the same supernatural being is responsible for both only because I am descended from a United Empire Loyalist.
Posted by: Kimpatsu | June 7, 2009 6:29 PM
Actually, God is British, and America is Hell.
Look where god put Falwell, Huckabee, Hannity, Popoff, Warren...
Posted by: Tulse | June 7, 2009 6:32 PM
The Greeks believed their gods lived on Mount Olympus. Various other religions still believe that certain physical locations possess more of the presence of their deity. Honestly, I'm not sure why these beliefs are especially more silly than bread turning to flesh.
Posted by: Drosera
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June 7, 2009 6:39 PM
Apart from its comical aspects, another interesting characteristic of the Mormon belief is that it is demonstrably wrong. Mormons believe that native Americans are descendents from three lost tribes of Israel, who colonized the American continent by boat in biblical times. Unfortunately for the Mormons, studies using DNA techniques have clearly shown that this can’t be true. Even more interesting, I think, is the fact that this revelation did not lead to the total collapse of the Mormon religion. Many people evidently just want to believe, no matter what. If the facts don’t fit, then to hell with the facts.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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June 7, 2009 6:39 PM
You've obviously never spent a rainy Sunday in Slough.
Posted by: Timothy (TRiG) | June 7, 2009 6:45 PM
"When good Americans die, they go to Paris."
Oscar Wilde.
Posted by: Ichthyic | June 7, 2009 6:53 PM
Look where god put Falwell, Huckabee, Hannity, Popoff, Warren...
...Ham, Comfort, Oktar, Moon...
http://www.asa3.org/ASA/RESOURCES/CMBergman.html#Non
Posted by: Ichthyic | June 7, 2009 6:59 PM
You might want to kill him first, unless he manifests as a cheese Danish. Now that would be an answer to a prayer!
No, no.
You're supposed to whip him with leather straps and spiky chains first. That helps tenderize the meat.
any human over the age of 3 tends to start becoming tough and stringy, and requires a lot of prep before slaughter and cooking.
Also suggest using a stronger smoke producing wood, like mesquite, if either smoking or BBQing.
If cooking whole, use a long pointy stick to poke some ventilation holes first, or the steam that builds up inside will likely cause rather a large mess.
Posted by: Drosera
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June 7, 2009 7:01 PM
Tulse @81,
We have to distinguish different kinds of silliness here. Catholicism is silly like a cheap horror movie, while Mormonism is silly like an unsophisticated comedy. That, and the fact that the Mormon religion was the invention of a single con artist, give Mormons the edge in stupidity, as far as I am concerned.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 7, 2009 7:03 PM
any human over the age of 3 tends to start becoming tough and stringy, and requires a lot of prep before slaughter and cooking.
If you get 'em at around 6 months, a grilled beer can baby, can be pretty good.
Posted by: Ichthyic | June 7, 2009 7:06 PM
We have to distinguish different kinds of silliness here. Catholicism is silly like a cheap horror movie, while Mormonism is silly like an unsophisticated comedy.
hmm, that's not bad.
sort of like "Them!" vs. just about any Adam Sandler movie?
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, OM
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June 7, 2009 7:06 PM
Silly Ichthyic, every fisherman knows you gut 'em and head 'em before you cook 'em.
Posted by: Ichthyic | June 7, 2009 7:10 PM
http://www.cracked.com/article_15047_inoperable-humor-5-worst-comedies-all-time.html
which one of these movies most resembles Mormonism as an analogy?
my pick:
Master of Disguise.
Posted by: MadScientist
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June 7, 2009 7:11 PM
Oh, yeah, who'd want a redneck like Druckabee? Let's see - preaches about how wonderful and holy he is while his son tries to take firearms through an airport. "Oh, is that whar dat thang git to? Ah's lookin' fer it, ah guess daddy left it thar." Ah, Muckabee's holiness surrounds him and his family of inbred pigs. The sad thing is that people buy into the "good guy" shtick.
Newt Gingrich: Preaches of the evils of the non-religious-non-GOP while engaging in acts even the bible bans. Can you say "two-face"? But loyal sheep have forgiven him for breaking the law and made a saint of him.
It really is quite a circus - two shitheads competing for who's holier and people actually believe them. There really is no accounting for stupid.
Posted by: Ichthyic | June 7, 2009 7:12 PM
Silly Ichthyic, every fisherman knows you gut 'em and head 'em before you cook 'em.
bah! the brains is the bestest part!
Posted by: JenBurdoo | June 7, 2009 7:14 PM
"Louis XV spent so much of the French treasury on assisting the American revolution (both on naval intervention and supplying the majority of guns and powder) that it destabilized his kingdom, ultimately costing the life of Louis XVI in the French revolution."
Louis XV died in 1774. Louis XVI's government was responsible for American independence, so it's their fault the Revolution happened. But France's intentions were more along the lines of "Hey, the British are distracted, let's see if we can get something out of it." That went well for the Americans but not for the French and Spanish, who got the snot kicked out of their navies at the Saintes and Gibraltar.
Posted by: bastion of sass | June 7, 2009 7:55 PM
vogonpoet @78 wrote:
Me too. I'm having a great difficulty imagining French magic underwear/lingerie.
Posted by: Pierce R. Butler | June 7, 2009 7:59 PM
JenBurdoo @ # 94 - thanks for the correction.
So, since Louis XVI sacrificed himself for American independence, he retains the status of the new Christ, and is therefore one person with his father. Whether this places Marie Antoinette in the Magdalenean role remains to be determined, but you gotta admit Robespierre makes a good Pilate.
Though she wasn't L16's mother, L15's mistress Madame de Pompadour had more elan, so I'd cast her as the nouvelle Mary.
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 7, 2009 8:01 PM
"I'm having a great difficulty imagining French magic underwear/lingerie."
It's great! When I wear mine I can walk like Jean-Paul Gautier and sing like Edith Piaf.
Posted by: Mark | June 7, 2009 8:07 PM
Ahh, yes. A victory for God. I'm really confused though. We all know that Katrina was an act of God's vengeance because of our diabolical ways, and yet God miraculously intervened in California. Apparently God prefers California to Louisiana and Mississippi. Have I got that right?
Posted by: MadScientist
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June 7, 2009 8:08 PM
I just thought I'd return to point out the obvious (and the odious): it sure wasn't a miracle that the war for independence was won by the pro-freedom people. If only we could send Stuckabee into the past; let him tell George Washington that the war was won by a miracle. The delusional love to believe that the nation owes something to their version of god; Ruckabee's cult didn't even exist back then.
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 7, 2009 8:18 PM
"Apparently God prefers California to Louisiana and Mississippi. Have I got that right?"
Yep, it's because God prefers hamburgers to Cajun and Creole cuisine. Too much spice gives him gas. Katrina started as a divine belly-ache that spiraled out of control. Heaven's always pretty empty when God's on the can.
Posted by: tim Rowledge | June 7, 2009 8:33 PM
Hang on - you people actually think Britain *lost* the American Unlawful Usurpation Campaign?
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 7, 2009 8:33 PM
BTW My comment about God’s gas problem causing hurricanes is completely scriptural. Psalm 107:25-33 says, "He raiseth the stormy wind which lifted up the waves of the sea…”
But the true believers explain it better
Posted by: DeviousDutch | June 7, 2009 10:20 PM
I can think of one very American symbol of freedom that was provided by the French.
Need I remind anybody that the Statue of Liberty was a gift of the French, constructed by the great engineer Gustave Eiffel?
But to say that god was French goes a bit far. Everybody knows god was Dutch. Who else could have created the Netherlands?
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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June 7, 2009 10:27 PM
is that a trick question?
Posted by: Ichthyic | June 7, 2009 10:32 PM
Apparently God prefers California to Louisiana and Mississippi. Have I got that right?
yup.
Just wait till you see the pattern that emerges when you try and figure out which sport god likes best, and which teams.
If someone hasn't done it already, there really should be a book of God's favorite stuff in the world.
I've actually heard that the naked mole rat is actually gods's favorite mammal.
go figure.
Of course, everyone knows how much he likes beetles.
Posted by: AJ Milne | June 7, 2009 10:35 PM
In the immortal words of Davenoon of Lawyers, Guns and Money: We should always remember that Gingrich is an "historian" in the same sense that someone who last played golf in 1978 is a "golfer."
(/And the low throbbing hum you now hear is the sound of Payne spinning in his grave.)
Posted by: DeviousDutch | June 7, 2009 10:56 PM
(me) Who else could have created the Netherlands?
(Jadehawk) is that a trick question?
(me) Do you really need to ask?
You could also argue that god was an engineer. Who else would have placed an open sewer in a recreation area?
PS: I do not have the hang of this quote thing yet, I do apologize.
Posted by: Ichthyic | June 7, 2009 11:04 PM
Who else could have created the Netherlands?
evidently, Kenya was created to piss on Norway:
http://www.weebls-stuff.com/toons/kenya/
oh, and they've got lions there too, apparently.
got your snorkel?
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | June 7, 2009 11:20 PM
The Netherlands were created by Slartibartfast's apprentice coastline designer, a young Magrathean named Munnyfuntcruncher.
Posted by: Snoof | June 7, 2009 11:52 PM
I'm not. You simply pull a certain strap, and it falls off! Like magic!Posted by: Psanity
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June 8, 2009 1:29 AM
All this to-do about God's identity made me think of Lulu the Snake.
http://www.danoneillcomics.com/pdf/godisarock/godisarock.pdf
Ahh, early Dan O'Neill -- sadly, long out of print.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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June 8, 2009 1:37 AM
*shrug*
your sentence made me think of the saying "God created the world, but the Dutch created the Netherlands"... that's all :-p
Posted by: Drosera
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June 8, 2009 3:21 AM
Ichthyic @91,
My vote would go to Little Nicky, for the satanic element in it. Haven't seen it though.
Posted by: Drosera
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June 8, 2009 3:42 AM
About God being a French Mormon, I feel there must be a contradiction somewhere. Don't the French drink lots of coffee?
Posted by: Piltdown Man | June 8, 2009 4:38 AM
Sastra @ 32:
In fairness to Gingrich, I'm not sure it isn't appropriate to equate some aspects of secularism with paganism. You've got the obsession with material wealth, beauty and success, the eroticised violence ...
Underlying all this, you've got a strong streak of superstitious fatalism. For all modernity's talk of individual autonomy, the typical modern belief-system proclaims that men are merely puppets of some pernicious abstraction before which they are powerless & into which they must ultimately subsume themselves -- the inevitable flow of history, the economy, the nation, the class, the race, the unconscious, impersonal linguistic structures, impersonal biological processes ...
A culture which takes a piece of conceptual voodoo like "memes" seriously is de facto pagan.
Posted by: Owlmirror | June 8, 2009 5:13 AM
Fixed!
MOAR Fixed.
STILL MOAR fixed!
Oh, Pilt. You are so unintentionally funny with your unconscious projection. LOL.
Posted by: Knockgoats | June 8, 2009 6:30 AM
In other words, he [Louis XV] gave up the life of his son so America could live. - Pierce R. Butler
Louis XVI was the grandson, not son, of Louis XV.
/history pedant
Posted by: Piltdown Man | June 8, 2009 6:44 AM
Nicely done, Owlmirror, but unconvincing.
How is Catholicism obsessed with material wealth, beauty and success? If you mean that some Catholic clerics & layman have personally cultivated these things, so what? What Catholics do is not, alas, always in line with what Catholicism teaches.
Or maybe you're referring to the institutional pomp and ceremony of Catholicism? If so, I fail to see the equivalence -- that's all about glorifying God & impressing the onlooker with the glory of God, not revelling in worldly possessions. An aesthetically impressive liturgy isn't some kind of advertisement for the priest's comfortable lifestyle.
Eroticised violence? Depictions of violence in Christian art -- for example a painting of a gruesome martydom -- are intended to edify by encouraging meditation on & identification with the suffering saint. To use a popular word on this blog, it's about empathy, not entertainment. You may find this sort of thing repellant or incomprehensible, but to compare it with the latest slab of Hollywood torture-porn is just frivolous. And if you find it sexually arousing, that just means you're a perv.
The guilt of Original Sin is washed away by baptism and its after-effects can be mitigated by the sacraments, so I don't think there's anything fatalistic about it. As for the unstoppable will of God ... the main difference with paganism lies not in abstract theological speculations about free will, but in the simple fact that the Christian God is presented as neither a whimsical or sadistic tyrant, nor an impersonal force, but as a loving Person. "There is no fear in love, but perfect love casts out fear."
I called memetics pagan becaus it seems to me to be a form of animism. The Catholic belief in the Real Presence isn't. You may think it's nonsense but it isn't pagan.
Posted by: Knockgoats | June 8, 2009 7:07 AM
How is Catholicism obsessed with material wealth, beauty and success? - Pilty
You've clearly never visited the Vatican.
the Christian God is presented as neither a whimsical or sadistic tyrant, nor an impersonal force, but as a loving Person. - Pilty
Who intends to torture people forever for disobedience. A depth of evil that makes any human sadistic tyrant look positively benevolent.
I called memetics pagan becaus it seems to me to be a form of animism. - Pilty
You really don't need to keep giving us further evidence of how stupid you are. We know.
The Catholic belief in the Real Presence isn't. You may think it's nonsense but it isn't pagan. - Pilty
Garbage. Eating bits of your god was most definitely a pagan practice.
Posted by: MadScientist
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June 8, 2009 7:36 AM
@Knockgoats:
You didn't have to accept the malarkey:
"the Christian God is presented as neither a whimsical or sadistic tyrant, nor an impersonal force, but as a loving Person"
The xian god, which is the god of the old testament, was a murderous sadistic bastard who loves to do things such as order his people to rape, pillage, and murder. Even if you were to accept xian apologetics and believe that the almighty perfect god changed between Act 1 and Act 2, in Act 2 we see a sado-masochistic god.
I, for one, am tired of copping the blame for all the evils of the world. Religious people commit and promote great acts of evil, then turn around and blame it on godless people. I don't even know what "Hollywood torture-porn" piltdown is talking about but he seems to enjoy it. It must be one of those things only god-nagging people enjoy. From piltdown's tone it's a truly evil thing too - so while pilty enjoys it, he's quite happy to blame godless folk for its creation and consumption.
Posted by: MAJeff, OM | June 8, 2009 7:40 AM
Christian God is presented as neither a whimsical or sadistic tyrant, nor an impersonal force, but as a loving Person
That's just funny.
Posted by: Drosera
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June 8, 2009 7:56 AM
...who sits on his couch on the planet Kolob watching Hollywood movies.
Posted by: Knockgoats | June 8, 2009 8:17 AM
MadScietist@120,
I didn't. WTF are you on about?
Posted by: MadScientist
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June 8, 2009 8:27 AM
@Knockgoats: Sorry, misread your post; was thrown off by the first part of your response. I'm not usually that stupid - really. :P
Posted by: Knockgoats | June 8, 2009 8:39 AM
MadScientist,
Thanks. We can all make mistakes - I remember the time I did ;-)
Posted by: SC, OM | June 8, 2009 8:59 AM
Yeah, when you stopped being an anarchist. ;P
(Other than that, can't think of any...)
Posted by: Piltdown Man | June 8, 2009 9:40 AM
Regarding the title of this thread : )
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zr4VZ8xCzOg
Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | June 8, 2009 9:51 AM
Hoax, why don't you go debate JAMSHED MOIDU.
Posted by: Watchman | June 8, 2009 9:53 AM
Obama is French? ZOMG TEH BIRFERS R RITE!
Posted by: raven | June 8, 2009 10:16 AM
Apparently, the most salient and ominous part of the Newt- Huckster groveling was ignored until now. The host was Lou Engle, a domestic terrorist wannabe from the lunatic fringes of the Death Cults.
Never heard of him but his big thing is that god is a terrorist and he is calling for "Acts of Xian Martyrdom". He is also tied up with some ugly creeps somehow, Joel's Army and who knows who else.
Well, we all know what is wrong with Lou Engles and his clones. They are just Haters and Killers for jesus, garden variety domestic terrorists. What in the hell or people like Newt and the Huckster doing hanging around with him? Sarah Palin is also involved with these people. It is starting to look like they want to leave a pile of bodies and rivers of blood in another country. That country is known as the USA.
I don't see too much of a future for either the Death Cults or the GOP if they go down the domestic terrorist pathway I do see a lot of "xian martyrs" and a lot of people murdered by terrorists..
Posted by: Virginia | June 8, 2009 1:13 PM
Was the Union beating the Conferderacy also an act of divine providence? Or how about Vietnam beating the USA?
Posted by: Owlmirror | June 8, 2009 1:32 PM
Because you're a hypocrite, Pilt.
Because God needs money, right?
Of course. Because God gives out palaces and fancy clothes and fancy cars and the best food, right?
And yet the priests -- and more importantly, those higher in the hierarchy -- still retain that comfortable lifestyle. Because it glorifies God.
And I am Marie of Roumania.
(Says the one who defends the tortures and killings of the Inquisition.)
Really, your entire religion derives from an incident of eroticised violence.
Of course. Secular torture-porn is just torture-porn, but religious torture-porn is torture-porn++ now with added significance!!
Special pleading is so very special.
Says the one who defends the tortures and killings of the Inquisition.
Because special pleading is so very special.
You're doomed and damned to burn forever in the eternal fires of HELL -- but if you just do everything the Church says, you'll get pie in the sky by-and-by! And all those suckers who don't do exactly what the Church says -- well, the HELL with them!
Because loving Persons always torture people eternally unless those people jump through absolutely arbitrary hoops that the "loving" Person sets up. Gotcha.
Special pleading is so very, very, very special.
Really, Pilt, you've managed to wipe from your mind all of those dire mutterings about "consequences" of actions. But the basic core of your faith is that all good things that happen are the Will of God, and so too are all of the bad things that happen the Will of God (God's Will allows the bad things, right?).
Because special pleading is so absolutely, utterly, completely, mindlessly very special indeed.
Posted by: Lee Picton | June 8, 2009 1:49 PM
It was the whole Original Sin concept that put the final nail in the coffin of religion for me. And yet, true believers like Pilty can't even begin to see what is wrong with it. It is one of the most depraved concepts ever invented in the mind of man, and it is about to intrude in my life. The spawn has spawned (yay! I am finally a grandmother), and my DIL is a nominal Catholic; I'm pretty sure there will be a christening, which I cannot in all good conscience attend. I can only hope it does not lead to a family rift.
Posted by: dScof | June 8, 2009 3:13 PM
I think the 'God is French' thing refers to Huckabee's statement that the revolutionary war was a "miracle from God's hand," in that 'God's Hand' is the French...we wouldn't have won the revolutionary war without their money and resources.
Posted by: Julia | June 8, 2009 4:01 PM
Lee Picton:
The spawn has spawned (yay! I am finally a grandmother), and my DIL is a nominal Catholic; I'm pretty sure there will be a christening, which I cannot in all good conscience attend. I can only hope it does not lead to a family rift.
I think you should go - and bring a really big hair dryer. ;) But seriously, your grandkid will need rational people so don't let that rift develop.
Posted by: Watchman | June 8, 2009 4:14 PM
Maybe not, but the concept IS emotional blackmail.
Posted by: Qwerty
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June 8, 2009 4:16 PM
I remember when Ken Miller played a tape of Mike cHucklebee at one of the early Republican debates in which he said he WASN'T a primate!
Posted by: Walton | June 8, 2009 4:26 PM
For some reason, I initially read the above as "he WASN'T a pirate" (presumably because I came here straight from the "Booty!" thread). People have said many things about Mike Huckabee, but I don't think anyone's ever accused him of piracy. :-)
Posted by: Qwerty
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June 8, 2009 4:31 PM
From the lead paragraph in the Virginia Pilot's story about this eveent:
"Two leading voices of the Republican Party's evangelical wing visited Rock Church on Friday for a forum aimed at recapturing some of the movement's political momentum."
I couldn't help but read this and thinking it should have ended with "rapturing some of the movement's political momentum."
Posted by: Qwerty
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June 8, 2009 4:37 PM
Walton @138:
You must remember that Huckabee does have an "aarrh" next to his name.
Posted by: chaos_engineer | June 8, 2009 4:47 PM
In the first place, I don't see how Mormonism is sillier than any other religion.
In the second place, Mormonism has the most pleasant portrayal of an afterlife...basically they give you your own planet to run; I'd like to start with a replica of Earth so that I can catch up on all the books and movies that I won't be able to get to in this lifetime. When I'm done with that then I'll investigate alternate evolutionary pathways and eventually different laws of Physics. Also you're allowed to convert to Mormonism after you die, so it's no big deal if you guess wrong.
After the Singularity, when the hyperintelligent nanites are letting us vote on what kind of simulated reality we want to live in, I'm going to vote for a modified version of Mormon heaven (with the sexism and homophobia and any lingering racism taken out.)
Posted by: Owlmirror | June 8, 2009 5:18 PM
Yes, of course it's emotional blackmail, but "Original Sin" is also fatalistic. If you were to ask Pilt why baptised Catholics who take the sacraments nevertheless sin, he would no doubt sigh sadly and invoke Man's [Original] Sinful nature.
See? Fatalism.
Posted by: Ichthyic | June 8, 2009 7:09 PM
I called memetics pagan becaus it seems to me to be a form of animism. The Catholic belief in the Real Presence isn't. You may think it's nonsense but it isn't pagan.
better to be a loon than a pagan?
The Hoax attempting to be a spokesman for Catholocism really reminds me of that old cliche:
With friends like this...
You keep on spoutin' off there, Hoaxy, you're doing our work for us!
Posted by: Notagod | June 8, 2009 7:10 PM
Wow! mor[m]ons are even stupider than the rest of them. Believing that their god idea would delegate its godiness to them. Mor[m]on loonies, the whole lot of them.
Mor[m]on1: How many times a day will you require your planet to pray to you?
Mor[m]on2: They won't be required to pray but, if they don't want to be sent to His place they must send me 90% of there income. I will be even wealthier than Him.
Posted by: savannah | June 8, 2009 9:29 PM
i'm from georgia and i assure you that gingrich gives a bad name to slimy things that live under rocks.
Posted by: Knockgoats | June 9, 2009 4:10 AM
SC,OM@126
Thanks - but you're much too kind! Quite apart from making occasional errors of fact, I'm aware that I do sometimes aim invective at people who don't really deserve it, as well as at poisonous little turds like Pilty.
Posted by: Walton | June 9, 2009 4:24 AM
I think the reason why the LDS faith is treated with so much special scorn and disdain is largely the fact that the Book of Mormon makes some fairly specific historical claims; which are, at best, unsupported by any evidence, and, at worst, just plain demonstrably flat-out wrong. Since it was written in the nineteenth century by a known author - in bad imitation King James English - it's fairly obvious that it's quite simply a complete fabrication. So a person essentially has to suspend all reason in order to believe in it.
The Bible, by contrast, has the advantage of genuine antiquity. And while it's compiled from oral traditions and various highly partisan sources, and so parts of it are totally fabricated or wildly distorted, it does also contain a fair amount of real, verifiable history. Like any other book of traditional myths and histories of a people, it is of genuine historical value, regardless of the fact that the supernatural aspects of it are almost certainly not true. There's a big difference between that and some third-rate hatchet job written by a nineteenth-century farm boy.
That said, of course, faith in Biblical inerrancy is equally as ridiculous as faith in the Book of Mormon. The Bible has very human origins, and its various books very clearly reflect the culture of their respective time periods (hence why, if taken as a whole, they completely contradict one another). It's interesting not because it's true (since parts of it are demonstrably not), but because of what it tells us about human history and the way myths develop over time, and real events are distorted by oral storytelling.
Posted by: Drosera
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June 9, 2009 4:44 AM
Agreed, Walton. The Bible at least has a certain merit as a cultural-historical document. It does have some nice stories and in places fairly good poetry (not up to the standards of the Greek and Roman classics, but nonetheless worth reading). The Book of Mormon, on the other hand, is in every repect a completely worthless piece of trash, with as much historical value as Hitler's diaries* and as much poetry as a telephone book.
Funny, why I am always inclined to read LDS church as LSD church?
*would this count as a Godwin?
Posted by: Drosera
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June 9, 2009 4:50 AM
delete that last question mark...
Posted by: Drosera
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June 9, 2009 4:53 AM
I must be getting senile. I meant the question mark after church. *facepalm*
Posted by: John Morales | June 9, 2009 6:33 AM
Lee @133,
Unsolicited, I recommend swallowing your pride and just going along with it. The whole thing is purely symbolic, let them have their thing now.Anyway, that's what I'd do. It's exactly why I went through the rigmarole of a Catholic wedding.
It's really no biggie, your conscience seems a tad Holbachian to be so affected by this. (no offence meant).
Posted by: Notagod | June 9, 2009 12:07 PM
That's what gives religion its power. Everyone is going along to get along which develops a sense of fear when they consider not following along, which some think is a sign from their god idea that it is real.
It all starts out innocently enough but, then it develops into the justification for atrocities.
Posted by: OfCourse | June 9, 2009 12:24 PM
Of course God is a French Mormon. He thinks he's better than the rest of us, right? What else could he be?
Posted by: Piltdown Man | June 9, 2009 12:51 PM
Knockgoats @ 146:
I'm sensing some hostility, Goaty.
Posted by: Piltdown Man | June 10, 2009 2:38 PM
Knockgoats @ 119:
The fact that an institution's headquarters displays wealth, beauty and achievement does not mean the institution is obsessed with those things or holds them as the highest goods.
Sounds like you've swallowed the enemy's propaganda. God doesn't torture anyone.
If a disaffected peasant rejects the authority of his rightful king and refuses to render due homage and service, he forfeits the benefits of the king's protection.
If he subsequently falls into the hands of a band of marauding robber barons who subject him to excruciating tortures, he can hardly blame the king for his predicament.
I suppose you'd call it a science.
Your say-so don't make it so.
In the first place, Christ is not physically present in the Eucharist, so there is no 'cannibalism' involved. The communicant is not "eating God", either whole or in part.
In the second place, paganism is basically worship of the creature in place of the Creator. Since God does not turn Himself into a wafer, it is not pagan to revere the Eucharist.
Posted by: Owlmirror | June 10, 2009 9:34 PM
And yet you judge all non-Catholic institutions that way.
Double standard much? Special plead much?
Ah, logical thinking is "the enemy". Got it.
And people don't kill people; bullets kill people.
Because special pleading is special.
Again with your crap "king" analogy.
If God is king, he doesn't need "homage and service". Human kings demand "homage and service" because they are weak mortal beings for whom other humans are potential threats, and more importantly, rivals.
If God wants "homage and service" without needing it, then he is cruel and small-minded. Just like you, come to think of it.
And if God does want "homage and service", he can ask for it on his own. He doesn't need the Church in the first place.
Delegation and bureaucracy are for the non-omnipotent and non-omniscient.
If God is king, then the "marauding robber barons" are his subjects, and their "excruciating tortures" are with his permission, complicit knowledge, and perhaps even letter of marque.
And the Lord said to Satan: Behold, he is in thy hand
With great power comes great responsibility.
With all power comes all responsibility.
Because special pleading is so very very very very very very very special indeed.
And it certainly looks like you're saying that all of the "Eucharistic miracles" on record are indeed fake; pious frauds, one and all.
Remind me, why did people become so upset by "Crackergate", if your surprisingly revisionist theology above is correct?
More revisionism and double-standards and special pleading, and hypocrisy. Are wafers not from wheat, which is created?
Also:
We call bread Ceres and wine Bacchus: but who was ever yet so besotted as to fancy, that what he eats and drinks is literally a god?" -- "De Natura Deorum", Liber III, Marcus Tullius Cicero