Pharyngula

Posted by: Angel Kaida | June 23, 2009 12:05 PM

Anyone have relevant, similar info about the US? I wish it were true here, but I have a sinking and terrible feeling it might be going the other way.

Posted by: Glen Davidson | June 23, 2009 12:07 PM

Not especially news with respect to Europe, though, is it?

If I saw those figures for the US, I'd doubt the survey.

Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/6mb592

Posted by: Ompompanoosuc | June 23, 2009 12:11 PM

I wouldn't go dancing around yet. School shootings, drug use, teenage sex and every other "epidemic" will be blamed on this phenomena.

Surely if we step up our efforts to inculcate our youth all these terrible problems will go away, right? Right?

Posted by: Celtic_Evolution | June 23, 2009 12:14 PM

Queue the "survey police" and religious defenders complaining about the survey being too small to be statistically relevant in 3... 2... 1...

Posted by: Lynna | June 23, 2009 12:15 PM

I've been in churches too, several churches as a matter of fact, and one cult. Church and cult are my only references for "boredom." The complaint "this is so boring" (sounds best coming from pre-teens and teenagers) usually just leaves me wondering where the wonder went, but when it comes to church I can understand. Ah yes, so that's what boredom is!

Posted by: Bostonian | June 23, 2009 12:19 PM

It's funny: the one thing about my personality that I credit to going to my childhood experiences in church is patience. And I've wondered, and even worried, whether my offspring will have difficulty learning patience without the experience of sitting through an hour of church.

Not to hijack this thread, but with the above thoughts in mind, and considering that socializing with other locals would be healthy, my wife recently mentioned wanting to look into the local Unitarian church, the idea being that they weren't really a religious organization in the traditional sense. I'd heard that before, and I really liked the idea that there might be a churchlike social group that doesn't subscribe to woo. So I looked at Wikipedia and noticed that there's nothing particularly dogmatic about the UUs, though according to the article they are devoted to "spiritual growth," which to my ears sounds suspiciously like hand-waving and superstition. (It reminded me of conversations with some of our more - ehem - credulous friends about how people can be "healed" by "energy.") But having said that, the article on Wikipedia also mentions that some people in the UU church are in fact atheists, so there is a broad spectrum of belief. So how about it: anyone know if the Unitarians are a waste of time?

Posted by: tsg | June 23, 2009 12:24 PM

Well, personally, with no other information, I'm not sure how much I trust a study by Penguin Books prompted by the release of a novel.

Posted by: Bostonian | June 23, 2009 12:25 PM

Oh crumbs, a double post. Sorry about that. I pressed Cancel and even refreshed to make sure the first post didn't go through, but it must have been stuck in the tubes at the time. :(

Posted by: Arnold Jamtart | June 23, 2009 12:30 PM

"The kids are getting smarter"

...sure, if your operational definition of intelligence is some measure of religiosity. I'd be willing to bet that these kids are just as prone to irrationality and magical thinking, which means our work is far from done. Religions just seem to be lousy at enticing this particular demographic. Hooray for that, at least...

Posted by: missy | June 23, 2009 12:37 PM

I grew up an Episcopalian, and discovered my atheism at about 12. I kept going to church, though, for the community, for the opportunity to be involved in service to the poor and elderly in our town, and for the beauty of the language in the old 1928 prayerbook (they've since "updated" and modernized the prayerbook, which made it easy for me to finally leave during college).

Since my son was born almost 11 years ago, I'd been searching or somewhere to find that sense of community, a bigger "family" for him to feel connected to (especially since he's an only kid). We finally found it at our tae kwon do school: there he has a sense of mission (there are community service projects), a place to learn how to be a contributing member of society, and just a group of people outside his little family unit that he can trust and depend on.

We are social animals, and church gives people comfort and the chance to feel a part of something larger than themselves. If we want churches to become less relevant and powerful in this country, we have to offer people an alternative.

Posted by: Hank Fox | June 23, 2009 12:40 PM

I think the same thing is happening in the U.S., and probably in all demographics. The problem here is, the goddy people have a lock on media coverage, and atheist and freethinkers are still fair game for prominent people to call evil, selfish, etc.

I continue to believe that one of the prime reasons for the increased visibility of conservative religion in the U.S. is desperation. Godders are getting more strident here because they're losing ground. People are not going to church, the coffers are running dry, and churches are closing. The megachurches seem to be doing okay, but that's probably the result of aggressive marketing of End Times and beleaguered-Christian paranoid fantasies to the shrinking audience.

I expect the trend to continue. It makes sense that if reasonable people are drifting away from churches, that in itself is a filter that leaves the church-going demographic filled with progressively LESS reasonable people. The situation here in the U.S. will probably get meaner, louder, more desperate ... and likely more deadly.

On the other hand, the violence will speed the realization that religion is dangerous, and those spouting the violent rhetoric will be progressively more marginalized.

Interestingly, I think there's already nobody left on the church side bright enough to stop all this, but even if there was, the paranoid Christianist remnants would see that person as "tainted," and refuse to listen to them.

The mechanism for that process is already well in place: Recall that anytime anybody left the Bush fold and spoke against the White House, they immediately suffered extreme demonization.

So moderate religious elements will suffer pushback not only from reasoning people, but from their own otherwise-allies, the more radicalized religionists.

And yee-haw to that.

Posted by: Moggie | June 23, 2009 12:45 PM

"The kids are getting smarter"

Or: the kids are getting online. It's not the same thing, not by a long chalk, but may have the same effect on religion.

Posted by: lose_the_woo | June 23, 2009 12:47 PM

Excuse me. Aren't we getting ahead of ourselves? Didn't I read a post yesterday on how the DI will effectively dismantle Evolutionary theory soon, thus proving some kind of creator? They still have some time left you know. I wouldn't count those chickens before they hatch.

Posted by: Rolan Branconnier | June 23, 2009 12:53 PM

66% don't believe in gods. Let's go for 100%, as Richard Dawkins says: "We go one god further."

Posted by: uncle frogy | June 23, 2009 12:58 PM

unless they are educated and learn to think and find "community" in which to cope with the difficulties that come along in life they will easily fall pray to religious conversion. One of the strengths of organized religion is the sense of community in fact I think most people go to church not because they believe all that there religion teaches really but for the sense of community.
That might have an influence on the sharp negative reaction to the "attacks" on religion that Atheism poses by existing. It is seen as an attack on the community of people as much as an attack on the precepts of any particular belief. That is where the difficulty in the modern urban world that is replacing the village and the small town. How do we form and maintain a functioning community in the cities of the world and not just consumers, workers, tax payers and voters. That is the vacuum that religion is filling. The beliefs are pure fantasy and contrary to what we know of reality but the emotional connection with the believers is real. That meaningful community is necessary to our health is a undeniable. We are a social animal and build cities so we can live close to each other.
I would look deeper into that study to see what else is going on before I would say we are getting smarter. It might be that the old religions are just dieing not that belief is disappearing.

Posted by: dr_igloo | June 23, 2009 1:00 PM

I'm a pretty hard-core atheist, and I generally find the UU scene pretty awesome. Even when they use the word "spiritual", it's usually in a way that feels acceptable to me -- the sense of human connectedness, wonder in the face of the grandeur of the universe, etc. They have an awesome sex ed curriculum as well, better than anything you'll see in any public school!

Posted by: pdferguson | June 23, 2009 1:05 PM

So how about it: anyone know if the Unitarians are a waste of time?

As a child I had to attend a Unitarian Universalist church, and in my opinion it is just as much a waste of time as any religion. It's about a self-appointed authority figure standing in front of a flock, claiming to possess special knowledge about the universe and passing the collection plate. It's the same game, just gussied up in New England liberalism.

I haven't followed it for decades, but it appears Unitarianism is slowly withering away to inconsequence, probably because it can't compete with the televangelists, megachurches and fundamentalist sects that have spread across our country like kudzu.

Posted by: sue blue | June 23, 2009 1:09 PM

My daughter is going to college in England this fall. One of her biggest complaints about her small-town high school here in Washington was the number of fundies among her classmates (who, by the way, always seemed to be getting pregnant or committing suicide or doing drugs)and the history teacher who gave her a "C" on her essay about the Scopes Trial because the subject matter was "too controversial". She was encouraged to read this report about irreliogiosity in the UK, even though I warned her that woo exists everywhere. I hope the atheist ratio in her college is even higher than this report indicates.

Posted by: tsg | June 23, 2009 1:09 PM

@Bostonian

For what it's worth, a friend of mine (an atheist) is a member of the UU. His only complaint is that it can tend towards "no belief too silly" (his wife is a homeopath, for example).

He takes "spiritual" to mean "personal growth".

Posted by: Nessa | June 23, 2009 1:13 PM

As a child the only time I went to church is when staying the night with a friend. The only reason I did that was because after church, they would take me to her grandmother's house to swim in the pool. I always figured an hour or two of boredom was a fair price for a few hours of summer fun.

I can't think of a single instance where I honestly prayed either. As a young child I neither believed nor disbelieved in god, it just wasn't something I thought much about. When I was old enough to actually sit down and consider it, I realized I couldn't possibly believe such nonsense. I tend to thank my christian friends for that. Watching them sit around and laugh at the absurd beliefs of others helped me to realize just how absurd their own beliefs were.

Posted by: RamblinDude | June 23, 2009 1:13 PM

Funny, isn't it; the religious insist that we need the fellowship and ritual and sermonizing, but it's all the most dreary crap and superficial 'community'.

It depends on the particular church, of course, but overall it is dreary, and it is superficial. Not in the sense that strong ties aren’t developed and people don’t care about one another, but because they’re so busy trying to “be like Jesus” that most everybody’s all bottled up inside. Not everyone, of course, but it is a trend that’s hard to miss when you see it up close. Give me “real” people any day. That cloying Christian shit just bugs the hell out of me.

Posted by: cervantes | June 23, 2009 1:21 PM

Well, let me see here. Sometimes the music is okay. And they have pretty glass windows. While everybody else is praying, you can check out the babes. We could probably think of other positives if we tried hard enough. But it isn't worth having to put a dollar in the plate.

Posted by: Bostonian | June 23, 2009 1:28 PM

@sue blue:

I think your daughter will find things much less religious in England. That said, as daycoder mentioned in the post after yours, there is a lot of apparent religiousness throughout the country. Churches are everywhere, but it's easy for a non-religious person to think of them as merely quaint historical buildings rather than places of worship. Seeing churches everywhere in the Midwest, my thoughts turn to brain-washing; seeing Saxon and Victorian churches in England, it all seems to be about the history and culture. Even Richard Dawkins calls himself "culturally" CofE - he appreciates its cultural place, even as he pushes for its disestablishment.

That's the funny thing about it: the church is actually established in England - that is, it is a real part of the government. Bishops and Archbishops actually hold unelected seats in the House of Lords. (Imagine if our Senate were filled with religious leaders, and not just people who pay lip services to the credulous.) So England does not have an establishment clause to defend, but at times it feels like it doesn't need one as much as we do in the US.

Posted by: whatevermynamewasbefore | June 23, 2009 1:34 PM

Gotta disagree with you there, PZ, although it is based on personal preference: If you never go to church, you might miss something.
I find church choral music, particularly the ancient stuff, very moving. And I also like hearing it in church - the huge, grand building with it's contemplative atmosphere, the wonderful acoustics, and the hilarity of what's got to be one of the biggest instruments in the world, the cathedral organ. It makes the ground shake. I mean that's at least a bit cool, right?
Either way, good news about the growing atheism. It's just you don't need god to think that a 1000-year-old building and some music are worth a look. Just ignore the weirdos in frocks when they start talking shit.

Posted by: 386sx | June 23, 2009 1:34 PM

http://www.jesusandmo.net/2009/06/23/size/

"God seeks gaps." Perfecto.

God /gäd/ noun
a: that which seeks gaps.
b: that which sophisticated philosophical profound theological ummmmm, somethin somethin... (I forget. Yawn.)

Posted by: aref | June 23, 2009 1:42 PM

In heaven all the interesting people are missing. ---Friedrich Nietzsche

Posted by: Holbach | June 23, 2009 1:46 PM

I suppose it is inevitable that with religious sects the gamut of beliefs runs into many and varied particulars. It also seems to run true to people who call themselves atheists and yet still maintain a modicum of "spiritual" crap in their denial of the chief tenets of religion. The hold of religion is strong and never vanquished to those who claim otherwise as demonstrated by several commenters.

Posted by: Loki | June 23, 2009 1:57 PM

@ # 18

Growing up Mormon myself, you are correct that there are 3 hours of church on Sunday's, those are not the only meetings as there are several others throughout the week and month. For me the church was more of a culture than a belief, especially knowing I was gay from a young age. I often wondered if everyone felt the same way I did, just going through the motions, saying and doing the things I should to be acceped by the group. For me this included going on a mission and getting married. I am sorry i dragged my wife into a marriage without her knowledge I was gay, but my mission was a wonderful experience, if not a spiritual one. I lived in Chile during the last years of Pinochet's rule there and it was a very mind broadening experience.

I think for many, church organizations provide a social network that today's youth has filled with technology. They are creating their own social organizations and finding acceptance with others who share their values and desires.

Posted by: Duff | June 23, 2009 2:02 PM

Lynna #18,
Mormon males on sunday morning go to Priesthood meeting, about an hour. Then Sunday School, an hour or more. And then, if that weren't enough, they come back in the afternoon for Sacrament Meeting. Another hour plus. Thats just Sunday. It goes on all week with various functions. Anything to keep the kids from having any earthly contact at all.

I come from an immense Mormon family and do not look forward to the day I have to begin attending Mormon funerals of my brothers and sisters. They will want me to take part. Not very likely.

Posted by: sasqwatch | June 23, 2009 2:17 PM

Bostonian re: UU. I've had only two experiences with the same Unitarian Church in Colorado (Springs, no less). One was as a keyboard accompanist to a church member... frequently, the members of this congregation were pressed into showing some musical chops, which was really cool. Everybody that I knew there was an atheist, BTW. The bulletin board was a central communications point re: antiwar & human rights issues. The sermon was a bit silly, consisting of a breezy talk about how life is like a golf game. Having come from a (progressive western American) Catholic background, I could tell (as an 11th grader) how easy such a sermon was to concoct, compared to what I was used to (usually a kind of golden rule message framed out of a biblical passage, taken in historical context).

Your results may vary, of course.

One of the best church experiences I have had, ever, was going to the main cathedral of San Cristobal in Chiapas, as a guest of a long-time anthropologist there. The coolest thing to me was how the act of worship was to have a good time. It was the whole point, in fact. A troupe of guitar players proceeded around the joint, playing a peculiar 5-beat that almost sounded like it was in 6. It was some cross between German oom-pah waltzes and some ancient Maya beat. I politely avoided the 200-proof corn alcohol being passed around, as I wasn't too keen on methyl alcohol poisoning... I was really lucky to be shown around the place by a guy that garnered great respect among the crowd. I got to see what it was like when folks were happy, laughing... celebrating.

Watching the unaccompanied (and mostly uninformed) white tourists arrive was also a treat. They would come in to see the church, hands folded, head down... a "reverent" aspect (that is, unsmiling, unhappy... shuffling along like a bunch of penitent monks). The contrast couldn't be more clear. Most locals considered such people to have something seriously wrong with them... that they were spiritually dead (or sleeping) somehow. BTW, that church did not provide some kind of superficial community, it WAS the community.

re: the survey -- I would hope it's a reflection of what's really going on, but also have trouble believing the study was conducted properly. Those are some pretty damning answers to some pretty damning questions, though.

Posted by: JiminKy | June 23, 2009 2:18 PM

I have to disagree that we nontheists "aren't missing a single thing," and that churches only offer "all the most dreary crap and superficial 'community'."

I'm thoroughly irreligious, but was brought up Southern Baptist and have lots of devout relatives. Churches attract lots of people not with thundering dogma, but with the enticement of social connection. A ready-made (physically present, not online) network of people with similar beliefs is tough to find in a wide-ranging mobile society. Check out Michelle Goldberg's insights on megachurches in "Kingdom Coming."

In rural areas, even the little backwoods churches have that community-gathering function to offer people who otherwise would never meet like-minded neighbors. Once the preachers have hooked 'em with socializing, then they can indoctrinate 'em.

I strongly suspect that the only reason my mom has gone to church for decades is because that's her best option for meeting other little old ladies to gossip with. She doesn't adhere to much dogmatic claptrap, but she never misses her age-segregated Sunday School class.

In a collection of Robert Ingersoll's writings, I recall reading about a number of freethought reading rooms and social/educational centers across the country in the early 20th century. I guess they just withered with the rise in public religiosity. Perhaps now is the time to revive that idea, and offer people the same community they can get at church without the boilerplate adherence to superstition.

Posted by: Sky | June 23, 2009 2:26 PM

Someone mentioned the Unitarians. I've also developed a little bit of a soft spot for them which I didn't expect. A friend of mine, an atheist, teaches Sunday school at a Unitarian church. She says they have a great sex ed program, as well as good education about world religions.

Ironically, Unitarian churches seem more secular than even public classrooms. Indeed the one my friend attends seems very interested in picking up the slack in terms of education that the kids there are not getting in the schools (good sex ed, world religions, etc). A far cry from learning about dreary old myths.

Posted by: Quiet Desperation | June 23, 2009 2:27 PM

You hear about people abandoning the GOP because of the "Jesus!" nonsense, but I also know people who started their emergence from religion because of politics. On friend in particular stopped going to his Methodist church because of one sermon that included a warning against nuclear power. Not nukes and bombs, mind you, but power plants.

Say what you will about the founding fathers as imperfect humans, but separation of church and state was a masterpiece of constitutional construction, especially when you realize how religious based many of the individual state charters were at the time.

Posted by: Alyson Miers | June 23, 2009 2:30 PM

I grew up in a very warm, welcoming UCC congregation, and I don't think the community aspect is "superficial" at all. They couldn't keep me persuaded of the God Hypothesis past the age of 9 or 10, but the experience of growing up in that church was largely positive. I also don't miss the worship services or Sunday school lessons, but I have fond memories of pancake suppers, spaghetti dinners, Christmas pageants, Easter egg hunts, CROP Walk and Heifer Project. Could a secular organization do all those things, or their non-theist equivalents, without dragging God in? I'm sure it could, but I don't regret doing all those things with my church. I live across the street from the building, they let me park my car in their driveway 6 days a week, and the grounds always make me feel safe.

I also have fond memories of standing in church at Christmas Eve services and thinking to myself, "ZOMG! Jesus was totally a Communist!" while singing O Holy Night with the congregation. So the effective brainwashing of a youth spent in regular church attendance (I finally cut the cord at age 20) doesn't seem to have gone very far. :p

Posted by: Richard Harris | June 23, 2009 2:47 PM

Reading some of the other comments, I thought it worth mentioning my perception, that there's a big difference between the practice of religion in North America compared to the UK. In NA, I believe there's a greater sense of community involvement, whereas in the UK, I think it's more a matter of attending the church service & going home. It's probably got a lot to do with NA being 'immigrant' countries with greater family mobility than in the UK.

Posted by: Rieux | June 23, 2009 2:52 PM

Bostonian @ 11:

So how about it: anyone know if the Unitarians are a waste of time?

I'm a generally-PZ-style atheist who spent seven years as part of a few Unitarian Universalist ("UU") congregations in a two states. I've left UUism within the past year or so.

You're certainly correct that there are plenty of atheists within the UU Association. Here and there, in fact, there's a congregation that's predominantly nontheistic.

I can assure folks here, however, that the national Association is quickly turning away from interest in, or regard for, filthy scummy atheists. For one thing, the UU demographic trend is decidedly spiritualist: while secularists are growing fast as a share of the American public, they're shrinking just as fast as a share of the UU laity. UU atheists (and agnostics, non-"spiritual" humanists, etc.) are overwhelmingly early-Boomer-aged or older, and as they die off they're being replaced in UU congregations with Neo-Pagans, Christians, and assorted theists.

More problematically, at least for me, the Association is being absolutely overrun by powerful people (most of them clergy and/or powerful bureaucrats) who utterly detest atheists. All the way back in 1998, the then-Association president, a nasty cuss named John Buehrens, co-wrote (with his buddy, another raving atheophobe reverend) a book-length "Introduction to Unitarian Universalism" that included choice passages like this:

Looking at the religious aspects of many intergroup conflicts, at the violence carried out by zealots in the name of religion, some people conclude that the world would be safer “religion-free.” They may even try living this way themselves. But too often they only practice a form of self-delusion. Nature abhors a vacuum and so does the human spirit. As C.S. Lewis said, the opposite of a belief in God is not a belief in nothing; it is a belief in anything. Sweep the demon of religion out the door and, like the story in the Gospels, you may only succeed in making room for an evil spirit worse than the first—this one accompanied by seven friends (Luke 11:24-26; Matt. 12:43-45). Zealous atheism can perform this role of demonic pseudoreligion.

Keep in mind, the guy who wrote that was at that point the President of the national Unitarian Universalist Association. (His successor, whose term runs out this summer, isn't much better.) And the awful book in which the above was written, A Chosen Faith, is still the best-selling introduction to UUism.

Within the past ten years, of course, atheism has had a higher profile in the U.S.--thanks to Harris and Dawkins and Hitchens and our esteemed host here, among others. Coupled with the shrinking numbers of UU atheists, my experience has been that this has led to an alarming rise in the amount of balls-out atheophobia expressed in UU circles--stuff like this smarmy crap in the UUA's magazine. Nonbelievers are solidly on the outs in the modern UUA.

On my end, while I was a UU I sporadically maintained a blog (some entries preserved here, including a very long rebuttal to A Chosen Faith) devoted to chronicling and protesting the UUA's and the UU clergy's nastiness toward atheists and other nonbelievers.

Meanwhile, I got along passably well at my local church (at which there was only a little woo and a lot of what Dawkins calls Einsteinian religion going around, but nothing too horrific) until the Board of Trustees forced the senior minister out in late 2006. Then, the church hired an interim minister to replace him temporarily while the church looked for a new "settled minister"; the interim was (is) a stunning bigot who loved insulting nonbelievers. One sermon of hers recounted the "faith development" theories of Methodist theologian James Fowler, under which atheists and similar skeptics are stuck in lowly "Stage 4" of human faith development; the interim minister, parroting Fowler, declared that

These persons [in Stage 4] are often unaware of the sharp limits of their empathy and their abilities to construct and identify with the interior feelings and processes of others. Religiously, these persons are often drawn to the rigidities and seemingly unambiguous teachings of fundamentalism--and there are liberals and radical fundamentalist spirits. As spouses, parents and bosses, such persons are, at the best, insensitive, and at the worst, rigid, authoritarian, and emotionally abusive.

The sermon (again parroting Fowler, the Methodist theologian) goes on to contrast us "Stage 4" subhuman atheists with our "Stage 5" superiors--demigods who have achieved the proper positive (not to mention heavily postmodern) attitude toward religion.

Near the end of that minister's interim stint, the church hired a new slick young minister who has the tone of a megachurch youth pastor (actual line from sermon: "And then Moses says to God, like, 'Can I have the last four digits of your Social?' And God's like, 'As if!'") and plenty of atheophobia to go around himself. Here's a line he actually put in his application essay:

“[H]ow do you deal with other Unitarian Universalist theologies with which you may not be in sympathy?”

[....]

While I have an understanding and appreciation of many of the theologies that fall under “Unitarian Universalism,” I have little patience for any sort of fundamentalist strain, whether fundamentalist humanism, atheism, or something else. I believe that spiritual maturity requires us to be conversant with theologies different than our own, to embrace metaphor and allegory, and to open our hearts to the mystery and wonder of the world, however that is named. Fundamentalism of any sort makes this impossible. It short-circuits our liberal religious tradition.

(Underline added.)

In his "audition" sermon at our church, this guy threw the supposed religious pluralism (a.k.a. "free faith") of UUism to the wind and declared that the basic beliefs of Unitarian Universalism are encapsulated in the Commandments Jesus preached to the Pharisees:

We believe in loving God and loving our neighbors as ourselves. It’s a perfectly Unitarian Universalist response.

By that point, I was well out the door. Why the hell would I want to stick around with people who would find that garbage acceptable?

To make a long story short (far too late), yes, I know it's possible for an atheist to find a UU community in which (s)he can be comfortable. If you're lucky enough to find a congregation that has a critical mass of atheists, you might not even have to put up with abuse from local atheophobes. However, the movement on the national level--and as a result, I think it's obvious, in individual congregations all over the place--is decidedly against any viewpoint that treats religion critically or skeptically, in favor of rancid attacks on secular people.

As a marketing strategy, in an increasingly secular America, this seems to me well nigh insane; as an attempt to live out UUism's supposed commitments "to affirm and promote [1] the inherent worth and dignity of every person" and [2] "the free and responsible search for truth and meaning," it strikes me as deep hypocrisy.

Hatred for nonbelievers is flourishing in today's UUA, but few people have noticed it and fewer care. I would advise any atheist to see what we can do in our own community to build worthwhile communities, rather than donating money to support institutions such as the UUA that coddle people who hate us.

Posted by: Ouchimoo | June 23, 2009 3:01 PM

I came to the enlightenment late, so I've been in church. Really, they aren't missing a single thing. Not one thing.

Are you kidding me? They'll be missing out on the talk about how other people of different religion should be looked down upon and scoffed. How gays and lesbians are dirty sinful people far worse than any of us sinners. And scoff at Hindus who actually have to work for their salvation. *This was all stuff that was shoved down my throat as my mom dragged me to church. All in hopes to 'learn' something. Haha, I learned something all right. I'm guessing the kids who think religion "has a negative influence on the world" are the ones that were unwilling participates of church.

Posted by: Cylux | June 23, 2009 3:06 PM

One theory as to why children in Britain are less religious is because one of the areas focused on in history classes is Henry VIII. Being taught that the main reason Britain isn't a Catholic country is because a fat man wanted a divorce tends to raise questions as to the authority of all religion in general.

Posted by: Moggie | June 23, 2009 3:13 PM

#35:

My daughter is going to college in England this fall. One of her biggest complaints about her small-town high school here in Washington was the number of fundies among her classmates (who, by the way, always seemed to be getting pregnant or committing suicide or doing drugs)and the history teacher who gave her a "C" on her essay about the Scopes Trial because the subject matter was "too controversial". She was encouraged to read this report about irreliogiosity in the UK, even though I warned her that woo exists everywhere. I hope the atheist ratio in her college is even higher than this report indicates.

Americans in the UK often experience religious culture shock. Not because of how godless we are - they expect that - but because religion is just not a big deal to us. If she's hoping to encounter people sitting around talking about how atheist they are, she'll probably have to make that happen, because the default position here is apatheism.

#46:

16 per cent have never been to church.

How is this possible? We've never taken our kids to church for the religion, but they have certainly attended copious weddings and funerals.

Only one of the weddings and one of the funerals I've attended have been in church. The rest have been at the "register office" and municipal crematoria.

Posted by: Brownian, OM | June 23, 2009 3:21 PM

In a collection of Robert Ingersoll's writings, I recall reading about a number of freethought reading rooms and social/educational centers across the country in the early 20th century.

A friend of mine, a thoroughly atheist philosopher (though his tendency to contrarianism has made him slightly accommodationist), ran a salon in the restaurant he worked on the third Thursday of every month for about a year until he moved. The political, religious, and philosophical positions of the attendees were quite varied, as his criteria for invitation generally required one to be 'interesting'. (I'd like to think I was invited for that reason, but I suspect it was my ability to carry a conversation single-handedly he wanted in case the chemistry flopped).

Those nights were much better than anything that ever went on at church.

I'd always found it so boring. I remember spending an entire mass staring at my new digital watch. I'd made a game, and the rule was this: I didn't have to watch it all the time, but I had to see the numbers change at each minute. I had to do some jockeying to receive communion without losing the game, but I somehow managed to see the digits change over 60 times that hour. It might have been dull, but it was far better than listening to Father Whatzisname blather on about "What Paul's really saying to the Christians of Corinth here is [insert either extremely tenuous or trivially obvious analogy to facet of modern life]" for the nth time. I think I became an altarboy just to have something to do for that hour (that, and of course, the sex.)

I do miss the sounds of the churchbells ringing and the conversation on the front steps as everyone poured out, but thinking back even that feeling was mainly one of relief after having gotten through another mass.

Posted by: Pen | June 23, 2009 3:22 PM

I would probably have to feel old compared to teenagers today, but when I was a teenager in Britain, I think there was one religious student in my whole school year. Most of us were explicitly atheist or don't care/not interested types.

I'm not sure about needing 'community' as a replacement for churches because we have, you know, friends and all that????! And don't forget that we live in evil socialist states so a lot of things that seem to depend on 'community' in the US get taken care of at a different level.

I don't think churches have been more that a tiny part of any kind of social or communal activity for, oooh, a very long time. My dad took some Christian friends to a church service once. They had to travel some miles to the next village because there is a sort of rota to try to get enough of a congregation. On that Sunday there were five people and the vicar: one atheist, two foreign Christians of a different denomination, and two local Christians.

We do rally round to stop medieval church roofs falling down though.

Posted by: Matt Penfold | June 23, 2009 3:34 PM

"I do miss the sounds of the churchbells ringing....."

I like the sound of church bells as well, but here in the UK you just need to live near a church to hear them. There is something reassuring about walking through a village, church bells ringing, the evening sunshine casting shadows and the anticipation of an evening in the pub drinking large quantities of beer.

Interestingly in has long been a complaint of the devout that bell ringers lack faith in god, and enjoy drink a bit too much.

Posted by: Brownian, OM | June 23, 2009 3:41 PM

But don't presume to tell any of us who have had a religious background what our subjective experience must have consisted of. It makes you sound ignorant.

I think you're right, Greg, but just as some science lectures are dull and unintelligible, some people's church experiences can accurately be described as tedious, boring, and lacking in community. Mine, for example.

Now maybe other people in that church had a different experience--and I suspect they did--but there was none of that going around in my family. God and Jesus existed to make you feel ashamed and unworthy, and church was a sort of penance. You went for the same reason you took cod liver oil: it made you better, dammit.

It's just as wrong for theists to assume that just because their Sundays were made up of Kumbaya sing-a-longs and bible-verse love fests that everybody else's are too, as it is for atheists to assume church services exist to make dentist appointments better in comparison.

Posted by: danmanning | June 23, 2009 3:44 PM

I'm almost positive that 50% of my two daughters are free from religious hocus pocus.

Posted by: Akiko | June 23, 2009 3:53 PM

One of my daughters is an atheist already. She figured it out herself. Common sense and logic. She also thinks Santa and the tooth fairy are fiction, too. She is 6 years old. I even sent her to a religious preschool where she was very unpopular. They had great academics but I was not worried she would be brainwashed. I knew she was too smart to believe any of it. I never once told her how I feel about any of that stuff. I let her believe what she wanted.

"God did not make people. People made god."
JR age 3 and 1/2 years

Posted by: Aquaria | June 23, 2009 4:12 PM

#18

Only three hours?

Lucky bastard.

Services for us were 4 or 5 hours, unless the Cowboys were playing. Then they were 2.

Only problem? A lot of those 4-5 hour sessions were in the goddamned summer. You're sitting in that smelly, uncomfortable ugly hellhole staring at that awful picture of the White Man's Jesus for 4 hours while this lunatic raves at you until he's red in the face and sweating profusely, and a bad choir splits your eardrums, and you're stuck there in uncomfortable clothes, worse shoes, no food, no water, you have to beg to go to the bathroom because it's a sure thing that you'll just run right off, never mind how it's three miles to home, and 105 F and rising, and there's no no A/C. Not even a fucking ceiling fan or box fan, or even one of those propeller fans. Nothing.

Just heat, and more heat thanks to the raving lunatic shouting and foaming at the mouth until spittle's flying.

And my mother wondered why I'd burst into tears when she'd try to take us to church.

Posted by: BaldApe | June 23, 2009 4:36 PM

@Bostonian,
My daughter went to a UU church for a while. She may still, I'm not sure. FWIW, I agree with TSB's "no belief too silly" call. If you're trying to avoid the "tell other people what to do" aspect of religion, that's the way to go, but if you're avoiding Woo, it wouldn't be my choice.

What alarms me (but only slightly) is when the idea that the possible benefit derived from ceremony and the kind of fellowship that can be had at a religious meeting means that god is real. But wait, if it were real, then only the ones who followed the right god would benefit, right? Whatever health benefits there are claimed to be, I have never seen a credible claim that any one religion confers those benefits.

It just seems to me that if any one of them were right, there would be some kind of overwhelming evidence.

Posted by: Carlie | June 23, 2009 4:47 PM

I'm surprised so many people were bored in church. Didn't everyone pass notes back and forth on the bulletins, and sing a different harmony line on each verse of the hymns, and hold hands underneath the Bibles, and whisper "in bed" at the end of every scripture reading, and try and distract the preacher by doing things like solemnly passing a single piece of gum down the row, each person chewing it for a minute until they caught his eye? No? That was just my youth group?

Mine was definitely the community version. If I name the close friends I've had my whole life, most of them I met through church. It's a very powerful self-reinforcer to keep one in the group. However, it can also be very cliquish, and hard to break into (hence subverting the whole idea of being a welcoming fellowship). That kind of thing really is a big loss when one leaves it.

Posted by: Marc Abian | June 23, 2009 5:24 PM

Well, if it makes you feel any better PZ, you described my experience of church perfectly.

Posted by: Felix | June 23, 2009 5:29 PM

"...and then the moral majority woke up, looked in the mirror and found that it had turned into the ridiculous minority."

Dun-dun-DUNNNNN

AAAAAAAAAHHHH!!!!!

Posted by: wotty | June 23, 2009 5:50 PM

Ah, more signs that the scenario posited in Ken Macleod's rather fantastic novel "The Night Sessions" will actually come to pass.

Posted by: catta | June 23, 2009 6:14 PM

Getting smarter? Nah. At best different. I'm almost certain that the very same kids believe in astrology, faith healing, homeopathy and all kinds of replacement hogwash without batting an eyelid.

Oh, and I've met too many non-church-going British kids who will happily quote the Bible to justify their homophobia to feel hopeful in any way because of this study. Not impressed enough yet.

Posted by: NoGurus | June 23, 2009 7:14 PM

Bostonian #11 and Rieux #71

I was brought up UU, checked out a few other churches along the way, and half-heartedly returned to UU, before abandoning religion altogether. My problem with UU is that it does not stand for anything, and that it stands for everything. I am an Einsteinian atheist, and I have many arguments, many specific reasons, and a deep intellectual understanding of why I am an atheist. I am against religion, even UU. There is that same stuffy atmosphere to UU, the same dependence on a minister who knows the answers, the same demand for giving money to the church and for buying membership to the church.

The conformity is non-conformity, that whatever one wants to believe in is O.K.(as long as its liberal, all-inclusive, non-sexist, pro-gay, anti-military, pro-drugs, anti-business, liberal woo, you can guess the rest.) This is definitely a creed, and one I don't believe in. I don't believe that is O.K. to believe in anything without reason, and just because it leans liberal does not mean it is reasonable. Growing up, I knew my dad was an atheist but he never explained to me why he was an atheist, so I would just tell people my parents don't believe in religion. If he had just explained to me why he was an atheist, I probably would have bought the argument, and told people I was an atheist.

But as a UU, he let me experiment with other churches and did not want to force his opinion down my throat. I wish he would have just told me what he stood for so that I had something to either believe or disbelieve. Instead, I had no beliefs whatsoever, and did not have a clue if religion was good, bad or somewhere in between.

The only caveat I will add here is that I advised my best friend, a Jew, to bring up his kids in a UU church as the least objectionable option because he wanted the kids to go to church. And I also compromised with an Episcopalian girlfriend I had and went to UU church with her for many years to avoid having to go to her church or a new age church her friends were going to. So, as the lesser of all evils, it is probably the best for non-believers.

P.S. I lived next to a church in England. Well attended services but I agree with the Brits, very little fundamentalsim.

Posted by: Alex Deam | June 23, 2009 7:38 PM

Teenage sex simply isn't considered an "epidemic" outside the USA, and there aren't enough school shootings to count for one. Drug use is AFAIK not on the increase either.

Then you clearly haven't read the Daily Mail, or the latest Tory pamphlet, where everything bad is increasing under ZOMG ZanuLieBore.

Posted by: Robert | June 23, 2009 7:46 PM

I must say that I am rather disappointed in PZ for this:

"Really, they aren't missing a single thing. Not one thing"

In the same way that the Greeks studied the Homeric epics, a basic knowledge of the Bible is essential for a well rounded education and understanding of literature. I happen to quite like some religious music and artwork, but that is more a personal matter. But as the underpinning of Western culture, the Bible is a very important book, and a basic knowledge is vital!

Posted by: Carlie | June 23, 2009 8:36 PM

Shorter Dr. Right: "You kids get offa my lawn. Oh, and go to hell while you're at it."

Posted by: Michael Martin | June 23, 2009 9:24 PM

Not missing one single thing? I thought the singing was fun. But it was the bad music and lyrics that first aroused my skepticism. If this was the best music they could come up with, it wasn't very good or inspired. However, it was fun to sing and we don't have much opportunities outside of church to sing together.

Posted by: Rey Fox | June 23, 2009 9:42 PM

Yeah, hmm. I could swear I've seen the same "I want to hear a fiery sermon from the heart" speech from some troll on here before. Could be real, could be not. Probably not worth the bother of figuring it out.

Posted by: Alyson Miers | June 23, 2009 10:49 PM

*giggles at inanity in #108*

We can has Poe nao!

I want "gayism" to be a real religion with worship centers and pretty stained glass windows and hymns and Sunday school lessons, only not the boring, tedious ones I had to sit through, and canoe trips and charity projects. We'd have our very own school of Gayist theologians. I'd be a fucking High Priestess, bitches.

Posted by: sue blue | June 24, 2009 1:46 AM

#118: Announcing your atheism may not be a big deal in England, but "coming out" in America certainly is, at least in many parts of the country. There have been many stories posted on this website of the consequences (losing jobs, being forced out of schools and communities, and threats of violence and physical assaults) that people have suffered when proclaiming their atheism. This does not just happen among ignorant, toothless hicks living in the southern backwoods. I live in one of the most liberal states in the nation, and even here one can find pockets of religious redneckery that would put even the southern snakehandlers to shame. My neighbors, for instance, who love to shoot their guns off at random all day long. There's no law against it here; we live in a rural area and everybody has guns. Somehow, though, only our fundie friends see fit to use them all day, every day. Not ten miles away is a gun shop with a great big sign right out on the freeway that says, "Tools O' Freedom" above a pair of crossed American flags. It got so bad around here that my few-and-far-between non-religious friends confided to me that they were really afraid to display Obama bumper stickers or Darwin "fish" on their cars. They had visions of "stray" bullets coming through their windows if they so much as hinted that they might entertain a liberal or irreligious viewpoint or two. For us, religion is not just a quaint, amusing distraction but a real threat to just about every aspect of life.

Posted by: sue blue | June 24, 2009 1:53 AM

AAAah! Sorry about the double post. Why does that always seem to happen on the loooong posts?

Posted by: Happy Tentacles | June 24, 2009 3:11 AM

Can't wait to see this Gayist church! Presumably it has a nicely-designed interior, colour-coordinated vestments and hymns you can dance to.

Posted by: TheNewGuest | June 24, 2009 6:12 AM

@ strangebrew #54

"[in the UK] you will never find a Minister Pastor Father Vicar Monsignor or Reverend on the streets touting for bizzyness...they know it is a lost cause."

That's not entirely true. In my local shopping centre in Essex, there was a Vicar with a stereo and a group of young people handing out leaflets. The back of their shirts read "Jesus on the streets", 'cause Jesus is down with us kids, yo'.

@ Moggie #77

I've just left teenagehood, and I have to agree about the UK being apathetic towards religion; virtually none of my friends care either way (excluding my best friend, who is a Muslim). Although I'd like to have a friend who I could talk about atheism with, I much prefer a lack of interest in the subject to a need to debate the issue, like in the US where religious interference is much more of a problem.

Posted by: Ysidro | June 24, 2009 8:30 AM

@ #35:

The Scopes trial was "too controversial"!? Geez, I remember being in school and having it specificially taught to us! In Jr. High!

One wonders if the teacher would have fainted if it were a Roe v Wade paper!

Posted by: Steamshovelmama | June 24, 2009 1:08 PM

Ha ha! I get to say "I'm responsible!" Well, for two of the 6 out of 10...

I'm sure some dingbat will turn around and cite the moral panic about "our kids" - y'know, they carry knives, do drugs, beat up pensioners etc, etc... and blame it on the decline of christianity to which I say: bollocks to that.

I have two teenagers who are clever, thoughtful, hard working, high achieving and generally useful members of society, neither of whom have any time for a mythical sky father. And, no, I haven't brain washed them. Except to question everything. Including and *especially* me and their father.

Oh, and the oldest wants to go into microbiology. I don't think he realises just how *cool* I think it is he wants to be a scientist!

Posted by: KI | June 24, 2009 1:34 PM

Angel Kaida @130

Well, it's the closest thing I've got, and I'm grateful for them (my friends, that is).

Posted by: Dr. Right | June 24, 2009 7:17 PM

"I want "gayism" to be a real religion with worship centers and pretty stained glass windows and hymns and Sunday school lessons, only not the boring, tedious ones I had to sit through, and canoe trips and charity projects"

--------------------

Okay. I think you already have it. It's called the Democrat party. Oh, and you will definitely have stained windows and walls and floors and everything in between.

Posted by: Piltdown Man | June 25, 2009 2:31 PM

PZ Myers wrote:

The news from a small UK survey is heartening

Possibly ... ; )