…and this is a 
I await the day when someone proposes to put a sign advocating godlessness on a bus, and the Christians and Muslims are so accustomed to it that they regard it with complete nonchalance. That day isn't here yet, as we can see by all the ongoing perturbation at very simple, innocuous statements. Now Vienna is joining in, and of course we get a poll. We can see that even in secular Europe there are people who are disturbed by mere signage. Go say hello from America (and Australia and Europe and all the other places you're from) and give some worldwide input to this silly poll.
Was ist Ihre Meinung zu der Atheismus-Kampagne? (What do you think of the atheist bus campaign?)
39,76 % Ich finde sie sehr gut. (very good!)
47,1 % Sie stört mich. (it bothers me)
13,14 % Sie ist mir egal. (I don't care)
Comments
Posted by: druidbros | July 20, 2009 9:16 AM
I am a bit surprised that there are some Europeans that would pick the second selection. I assumed they were much more tolerant. Learn something new every day.
Posted by: Ploon | July 20, 2009 9:17 AM
"Es gibt keinen Gott. Gutes tun ist menschlich. Auf uns kommt es an": "There is no god. It is human to do good. It comes down to us."
My favourite so far: "Gott ist mit an Sicherheit grenzender Wahrscheinlichkeit ein tschechischer Schlagersänger. Entspann dich. Er wird dir nichts tun". "God is with a probability bordering on certainty a Czech folk singer. Relax. He will do nothing to you."
Unless this is offensive to Czechs and/or schlager singers. Well no, who cares if schlager singers are offended.
Posted by: Ploon | July 20, 2009 9:20 AM
@1: Austria is very Catholic and very conservative.
Posted by: diegopig | July 20, 2009 9:22 AM
Here in Italy the UUAR (italian acronym for Atheists and Agnostic Rationalists union) tried to put the same message on a bus in Genoa, but the advertisement society refused.
In a more recent episode, the UUAR put up signs with the same message (The bad news is that god doesn't exists...) and the signs were taken down by police because it offended religious sentiment.
In a funny aftermath, the UUAR choose a substitute message:
"The bad news is that Zeus doesn't exists. The good news is you can say that about Zeus".
Posted by: Ol'Froth | July 20, 2009 9:25 AM
Very good up over 40% in less than 20 minutes.
Posted by: BunBun | July 20, 2009 9:28 AM
Karel Gott the Czech Folksinger, famous for his "Biene Maja" song http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fTo5Nk8phhE. Childhood memories ...
Love your blog. And yes most of my fellow Austrians are very conservative.
Posted by: Agi Hammerthief
|
July 20, 2009 9:28 AM
@ #2
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karel_Gott
Posted by: Ploon | July 20, 2009 9:31 AM
And Gott is apparently from Pilsen, the birthplace of pilsner beer (lager to the Anglo-Saxons among us). Coincidence? I think not.
Posted by: Will | July 20, 2009 9:34 AM
I agree.
Posted by: Mairywo | July 20, 2009 9:38 AM
It's not only Austria that has a problem with this campaign in Europe. In Switzerland they wanted to put the same ads on buses and in the end it didn't happen because too many people were against it and the advertisement company pulled back.
We do however have countless religious posters along the streets and in many other places. And I've never thought of Switzerland (esp. the protestant cantons) as a religious country...
Posted by: Florian Freistetter | July 20, 2009 9:42 AM
The Bus Sign campaign was already cancelled in June, now they have put the slogans on normal billboards. And those also got almosted cancelled!
There are some news on the german scienceblogs:
http://www.scienceblogs.de/astrodicticum-simplex/2009/06/ruckzieher-der-wiener-linien-atheistenbuskampagne-wurde-gestoppt.php
http://www.scienceblogs.de/astrodicticum-simplex/2009/07/die-atheismuskampagne-findet-nun-doch-in-wien-statt.php
Posted by: Clemens | July 20, 2009 9:42 AM
In Germany also no bus company wanted to put the ad on their buses. The atheist campaign ended up getting a bus of their own and touring the country.
Posted by: taavet | July 20, 2009 9:43 AM
As atheist women seem to be a topic lately, I felt it necessary to point out that AG-ATHE, one of three groups behind the campaign are 'atheist and agnostic women for secular Austria'. AHA, or 'Alliance for Humanism and Atheism' have a smashing acronym as well;)
Posted by: tsg | July 20, 2009 9:45 AM
ObPedant: Lager is a type of beer. Pilsner is a style of lager.
Posted by: Zeno | July 20, 2009 9:50 AM
Off topic: It's Moon Day! Where were you, PZ, on July 20, 1969? I was planning my 50th birthday party at the lunar Hilton. So, so wrong!
Posted by: MrFire | July 20, 2009 9:52 AM
I for one consider this far better the original. The irony will make a lot of people think - and that's exactly what you want people to do!
My best wishes to UUAR, diegopig.
Posted by: Mobius | July 20, 2009 10:01 AM
Over 44%. Sehr gut.
Posted by: Raiko | July 20, 2009 10:03 AM
#1:
No, we're not so very tolerant in Europe at all. It also goes to show through the German bus-campaign (buskampagne.de) - while ads for prostitution and relgion are running all over German buses, it wasn't possible to get an atheist message onto *any* bus. So the campaigners rented their own bus to offer themed rides through different German cities - seemingly that was the only way.
No, certainly and sadly, we're not so tolerant here.
Posted by: Reynold | July 20, 2009 10:04 AM
Some theists really hate it when atheists put up those bus ads.
He's very good at poisoning the well. From that first link...
Activist atheists keep on lining up during a time of worldwide recession to gather donations and waste hundreds of thousands of dollars not in order to help anyone in need but in order to attempt to demonstrate just how clever they think themselves to be.
Yes, they are at it again.
He made the same kind of complaint with the signs the FFRF had put up.
Nice guy, eh? Fortunately some of his commentators don't let him get away with that.
Posted by: gnoerpf | July 20, 2009 10:05 AM
I await the day when someone proposes to put a sign advocating God's existence on a bus, and the Atheists are so accustomed to it that they regard it with complete nonchalance.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
|
July 20, 2009 10:10 AM
Ah, someone longing for the "good old days" when atheists didn't say anything about the lack of respect shown them by theists. Those days are gone. You deity exists only between your ears. Keep him/her/it there, and you won't have any problems.Posted by: Ploon | July 20, 2009 10:11 AM
@19:
Ha, I see what you did there! God doesn't need buses though, he's got oodles of, whachamacallem, yeah, churches...
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 20, 2009 10:12 AM
I suggest you travel on public transport in London. There are quite a few ads for different churches and religions. The public just tend to ignore them.
Oddly it was when ads promoting atheism were put up that some people got all upset. Seemed to think they were offensive for some reason. The same people had not called for the removal of the posters promoting religion though so it is possible their brains are broken.
Posted by: Steve LaBonne | July 20, 2009 10:15 AM
God invented ale. Lager is the work of Satan. ;)
Posted by: Richard Eis | July 20, 2009 10:15 AM
-I await the day when someone proposes to put a sign advocating God's existence on a bus, and the Atheists are so accustomed to it that they regard it with complete nonchalance.-
You will be glad to hear that this already occurs whenever I see those dull little 'alpha course' adverts. It's having the American import mormons jump out at me with deadly leaflets that truly gives me the willies.
Posted by: Bill Dauphin, OM | July 20, 2009 10:21 AM
This faceless minion has done his master's bidding.
Posted by: Susan | July 20, 2009 10:23 AM
I await the day when someone proposes to put a sign advocating God's existence on a bus, and even tiny children point and laugh, without fear.
Posted by: Doug | July 20, 2009 10:23 AM
Ich bin ein think I just agreed to change my long distance carrier.
Posted by: Reginald Selkirk | July 20, 2009 10:27 AM
Faith Day promotion by the Cincinnati Reds, sponsored by the Creation Museum and others. August 2, 2009; It's a bout a week too early for you.
Posted by: Bob | July 20, 2009 10:34 AM
Added my two cents from Costa Rica.
And I love the "God is with a probability bordering on certainty a Czech folk singer. Relax. He will do nothing to you."
LOL
Posted by: Daniel | July 20, 2009 10:36 AM
Are you aware of the Swedish campaign? http://www.gudfinnsnoginte.se/ The Swedish humanist association plastered the major cities with posters stating "God probably Doesn't Exist" encouraging people to take an online test to check how religious they are or whether they fit in with the dreaded "A-word". I have a photo from the Stockholm metro: http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3648/3617044235_2a0143a9b0.jpg
You'd think Sweden would be the last place a thing like this would be controversial, but the criticism and holy outrage have been kinda surprising. Most people get it wrong... it's still sort of a taboo to bring out religion in the open or criticize it, even in such a secular society.
Posted by: Aquaria | July 20, 2009 10:41 AM
I await the day when someone proposes to put a sign advocating God's existence on a bus, and the Atheists are so accustomed to it that they regard it with complete nonchalance.
Somebody is really jealous that atheists are no longer cringing from their theistic abusers anymore, and is having a hissy fit that we're not pointing out how that theists have imaginary friends well past the age when it's seemly to do so.
I have an idea for all the theotards: We'll stop pointing and laughing at you if you'll leave your imaginary friend delusion in your homes and churches. That means no trying to give your imaginary friend a voice in the real world. Hint: Bringing up an imaginary friend and "his" rules indicates to us that you don't have a fucking clue about reality enough to try to dictate what it is and how the rest of us must live within it.
Posted by: Marcus Ranum | July 20, 2009 10:45 AM
That'd make a good ad in itself: "this bus company carries ads for prostitution, but was afraid to carry ads saying religion is not true. where to YOUR morals come from?"
Posted by: Reynold | July 20, 2009 10:47 AM
Some theists really don't like it when atheists put up those bus ads.
From the last link:
During a time of worldwide recession atheists are collecting hundreds of thousands of dollars in donations not in order to actually help anyone in real need but in order to attempt to demonstrate just how clever they think themselves to be—need anymore be said?
The Indiana Atheist Bus Campaign has wasted perfectly good money responding to an argument that no one has made as their bus ad reads,
You can be good without God.
From the second link:
Activist atheists keep on lining up during a time of worldwide recession to gather donations and waste hundreds of thousands of dollars not in order to help anyone in need but in order to attempt to demonstrate just how clever they think themselves to be.
Yes, they are at it again.
Fortunately, some of his commentators shoot him down.
Posted by: Lynna | July 20, 2009 10:48 AM
"Ich finde sie sehr gut" is now up over 48 percent. I voted what I think, that I find it very good -- just throwing that out there in case there's anyone reading this who wants to call me an unthinking disciple of PZ.
Posted by: Daniel | July 20, 2009 10:48 AM
Another thing about the Swedish campaign: Even though the voices against it in the media have gotten a prominent place, the response from the people on the street isn't as negative in my opinion. Most people would be nonchalant, feeling it doesn't concern them, and a minority would either be excited or outraged. The Facebook group has more than 15'000 members though so it's doing something good in encouraging people to look into their stance and their opinion.
Posted by: tsg | July 20, 2009 10:49 AM
Although I'm sure you didn't mean it this way, so do I, because it will mean that the right to hold any view is respected and the message is not yet another reminder to atheists that theirs aren't.
Posted by: Iris | July 20, 2009 10:50 AM
48.92 % Ich finde sie sehr gut.
Posted by: nine | July 20, 2009 10:50 AM
These Germans are damn funny!
One of the campaign slogans says: "God is with a probability boarding on certainty a czech singer. Relax. He won't do anything to you."
Love these guys!
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 20, 2009 10:50 AM
Even pre-pharyngulation, "Very Good" and "Don't care" were still over 50%. (I'm cool with either of those responses).
#22:
Same here in Ottawa: Alpha Course, Anglican church, "Bus Stop Bible Studies", etc. But when the TPNG campaign came to town? Suddenly various bureaucrats and city councillors got their knickers in a knot, and had to be told by the city lawyer: "They could take us to court on this. And they would win". I gotta thank them, though: they undoubtedly gave us more free publicity, and got the public debate rolling, than the bus ads themselves, which were almost a non-event in the end.
(As a PS: The campaign being over, several of the signs now reside in my garage. Not sure what we're going to with them ;-).
Posted by: Blake Stacey
|
July 20, 2009 10:57 AM
Off-topic: Ian Musgrave writes the post I would have written about Unscientific America and l'affaire Pluto. Short version: "Was the Pluto decision really scientifically necessary?" ask M&K. In a word, yes.
Posted by: Eamon Knight | July 20, 2009 11:10 AM
#30
This is what struck me during the Ottawa wrangling: southern Ontario (especially urban) is religiously diverse, tolerant and secular. But I think we've achieved that largely by making religion a personal, private matter, and not a proper object of criticism for that reason; ie. the Catholics and Protestants no longer diss each other, no one can (publicly) slag off the Jews, and this extends somewhat even to the newer "immigrant" religions (mostly Islam and Hinduism). Unbelievers are included under the general "let's just not talk about that" umbrella. Everyone attends their chosen place-of-worship or not (and these days, it's mostly the latter) and ignores what everyone else does that way. All very politely Canadian.
Which isn't a bad state of affairs -- as long as the religion indeed stays strictly private.
Posted by: Glen Davidson
|
July 20, 2009 11:15 AM
Voted "Sie ist mir egal".
Seems appropriate, really.
Glen D
http://tinyurl.com/mxaa3p
Posted by: Derek | July 20, 2009 11:17 AM
Austria is a very conservative in comparison to most other European countries, therefore to see a good portion of the poll being bothered by this, does not surprise me.
Far right wing parties became part of the ruling coalition in Austria which caused some countries to have boycotts against them. So this is not surprising.
Posted by: Muffin | July 20, 2009 11:18 AM
@18: What's wrong with advertising for prostitution?
Also:
50,95 % Ich finde sie sehr gut.
38,07 % Sie stört mich.
10,97 % Sie ist mir egal.
Posted by: Lynna | July 20, 2009 11:18 AM
Blake @40: thanks for the link. Good article re Pluto, Mooney, etc.
I notice that the first comment on the article comes from Laurel Kornfeld. I guess if you must be insane/obsessive-compulsive over something, then Pluto is a relatively harmless choice.
Posted by: Steve LaBonne | July 20, 2009 11:24 AM
I find it quite amusing that Mooneybaum attract supporters like the Kornfeld bot. Does wonders for their credibility. With friends like that they don't need enemies.
Posted by: Stu
|
July 20, 2009 11:33 AM
I find it quite amusing that Mooneybaum attract supporters like the Kornfeld bot.
With supporters like Kwok, McCarthy, Davison, Rooke, Silver Fox and Mabus I would hardly be worrying about Kornfeld, really.
Posted by: Ed Darrell | July 20, 2009 11:34 AM
You know, this poll educating ("crashing" is such a vile word in this context) is a lot of fun.
Plus, we learn the value of organizing.
Posted by: Lindsay | July 20, 2009 11:43 AM
Unrelated, but a cake decorator accidentally reveals some secret meaning:
http://elaneymedia.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/03/names.jpg
via cakewrecks
Posted by: Steve LaBonne | July 20, 2009 11:44 AM
Actually I really do think she's their biggest liability; those nut cases are only infesting Mooneybaum's own blog whereas the Kornfeld bot is unwittingly calling attention to the stupidity of their Pluto stuff on multiple science blogs.
Posted by: Spud Frye | July 20, 2009 11:45 AM
"With fronds like these, who needs anemones?"
--Roy Blount Jr.
Voted "It doesn't matter to me". Apatheists
now over 10%!
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 20, 2009 11:47 AM
It is not as though they are in need of much help in making themselves look stupid. Atill they now have the professional like Kwok, McCarthy, Davison, Rooke, Silver Fox, Mabus nad Kornfeld on hand to ensure that the next book they right will be really, really stupid. Unscientific American is OK, but rather amateur.
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 20, 2009 11:58 AM
A friend of mine says that when he starts to lose his faculties, he'll dive into the "Christopher Marlowe wrote the plays of Shakespeare" conspiracy. If you're going to be a conspiracy nut, he says, at least go for the harmlessly eccentric one.
Posted by: Watchman | July 20, 2009 12:02 PM
From the Musgrave piece linked to by Blake:
Ouch.
Posted by: Paul | July 20, 2009 12:02 PM
Since Mooneybaum was mentioned, Mooney has a fluff piece up on Huffington Post about UA. Not too interesting, but thought I'd mention it if anyone is still following that saga. The solution to UA:
/facepalm
Why didn't I think of that? It's so obvious, all we have to do is get rid of the gap. Mooney has singlehandedly fixed science!
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 20, 2009 12:07 PM
Mooney has posted that HuffPo article at TThe Intersection.
The first comment nails it.
How does Mooney keep going with all these welts his body must have by now ?
Posted by: Watchman | July 20, 2009 12:12 PM
Indeed. The gap will completely disappear if we simply allow apathy and rampant religious fundamentalism to destroy science education altogether, but I don't think that's what Chris has in mind. Perhaps he's stepping into Syndrome's rocket boots and suggesting that we educate everyone up to the "expert" level? Not likely. So what's the solution? Better communication? Science and science journalism is already available. You can't force people to study it, to read about it, or to be even vaguely interested.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 20, 2009 12:17 PM
Also, in the article he seems to have some problem understanding why US spending on science started decreasing around the mid to late 60s.
Is he that ignorant of history ?
Posted by: Steve LaBonne | July 20, 2009 12:23 PM
Yes. This has been another edition of simple answers to simple questions.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 20, 2009 12:24 PM
I should have seen this one coming!
Posted by: Psychodigger | July 20, 2009 12:25 PM
Oberaffentittengeil!
Posted by: Steve LaBonne | July 20, 2009 12:29 PM
Sorry, I guess I spend too much time reading Atrios. ;)
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 20, 2009 12:31 PM
The sad truth is that the answer really does seem to be yes.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 20, 2009 12:34 PM
Damn that's good. Simple and good.
Posted by: John M | July 20, 2009 12:38 PM
Steve@23
There is no god and no satan, as you already are aware.
However, there is good ale and there is bad ale - and there is bad lager and, occasionally ( especially if you make it yourself), good lager.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 20, 2009 12:40 PM
I agree with this statement 100%
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 20, 2009 12:40 PM
Or you could travel to continental Europe, where there are some very good lagers.
Lager is just beer brewed using bottom fermenting yeast after all.
Posted by: Holbach
|
July 20, 2009 12:41 PM
55.42% with my vote. How infuriating when reason has to proclaim itself to be the presiding state of mind and behavior. Will you ever see a sign on a pile of rubble that was reduced after being obliterated by a wonderful and unconscious lightning bolt?
"This church was destroyed by your god. Ask it, why?
Posted by: Paul | July 20, 2009 12:45 PM
Roadtripper on The Intersection:
Pure win.
Posted by: Jacqueline | July 20, 2009 12:58 PM
The phrase "secular Europe" seems to me to reflect a certain recieved wisdom that is at best vague and at worst inaccurate. The percentage of Austrians with a religious identification is comparable to the percentage here. Furthermore, I believe they pay a church tax. This is pure speculation, but it seems to me that we look at the French laws and overgeneralize them to the whole of Europe.
Religious conservatives in the United States have made an effort to spread false ideas about American history and character which are helpful for their purposes. They've made some imaginary, decadent, godless Europe a sort of foil. I don't think it's helpful to feed into that.
Posted by: Matt Penfold | July 20, 2009 1:07 PM
Jacqueline,
Secularism is not only about religious identification.
If you compare the role religion has within politics in Europe compared with the US, you will find that even in those countries which retain a high degree of religious identification there is a reluctance to bring religion into the public sphere, at least in anything other than a symbolic role. Politicians in the US can call for gay marriage to be banned and make it very clear that the reason they are doing so is because of their religious belief. This happens in Europe as well, and the degree to which it happens varies within Europe, but even in more religious European countries there is a greater understanding that religious arguments do not have a place in public debate.
Posted by: Tom S. Foxt | July 20, 2009 1:19 PM
As atheist women seem to be a topic lately, I felt it necessary to point out that AG-ATHE, one of three groups behind the campaign are 'atheist and agnostic women for secular Austria'.
No, sir or ma’am, it is simply "Atheists and Agnostics for a Secular Austria". It is not only for women.
Posted by: Tom S. Foxt | July 20, 2009 1:22 PM
Sorry, the upper paragraph was supposed to be quoted.
Posted by: Dan
|
July 20, 2009 1:32 PM
@Jacqueline,
To add to what Matt said: it seems that the religious institutions, because of lack of separation of church and state, fight less aggressively to gain power than in the US because, well, they are already official.
However, we have an interesting historical control in the form of the reemergence of religiosity in the former communist block countries. I think it is fair to say that in these countries the liberalisation of thinking lead to more of a fight by the churches to gain political influence, more similar to what occurs in the US.
Posted by: Dan
|
July 20, 2009 1:37 PM
In terms of religiosity in Europe, if it is at all possible to generalize, I can say that I certainly have many friends who are quite clearly atheists, but would put themselves down as catholic in some strange belief that it's a cultural thing. Imagine a large swathe of faitheists.
Austria does have a tax to pay for church.
Yes, it is ridiculous.
(Although tax exemption for churches in the US is only slightly less bad.)
Posted by: jj | July 20, 2009 1:45 PM
True, but it is considered that Pilsner was the original lager (although arguable). Prior to Pilsner, most beers were dark or highly cloudy and made with ale yeast (top fermenting). The use of cold cellars (caves) allowed for the cool temperatures needed to slow the fermentation of lager yeast.Posted by: gnoerpf | July 20, 2009 1:57 PM
Actually the opinion expressed by #36 was exactly the point of my original post. Thanks to all the others who commented on it, you really made my day :-)
Posted by: tsg | July 20, 2009 2:04 PM
I apologize for misinterpreting it.
Posted by: kevinj | July 20, 2009 2:15 PM
@Blake Stacey
well if he avoids certain parts of the uk. i have been ranted at in Suffolk about how it was their local champion who did (cant remember who) and remember some Marlowe supporters coming into the pub in canterbury where i worked and doing much the same.
i wasnt 100% convinced they were harmless.
Posted by: Steve LaBonne | July 20, 2009 2:16 PM
Those were the good old days. ;)
Of course I'm kidding, but I seriously do prefer a decent ale (in any of a number of styles, but preferably Belgian) to even a really good lager. So much more depth and complexity.
Posted by: abb3w | July 20, 2009 2:22 PM
Interesting; it was running almost 40% in favor, even before PZ started meddling.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 20, 2009 2:26 PM
I await the day when someone proposes to put a sign advocating God's existence on a bus, and the Atheists are so accustomed to it that they regard it with complete nonchalance.
Uh, right, because now, every time that happens, incensed atheists complain so loudly that governments and bus companies ban such signs.
Desnarked: gnoerpf, you're a typically hypocritical Christian asshole.
Posted by: Obstreperous Anti-Theist | July 20, 2009 2:27 PM
FTW! Scooby-Doo reference coming up!
Posted by: Obstreperous Anti-Theist | July 20, 2009 2:31 PM
Oh. Well not by me!! =)
Posted by: ZeroMatter | July 20, 2009 2:31 PM
I live in Vienna and I'm actually happy to see you crashing an austrian poll.
In Vienna, most people are very, very secular, especially the young ones, but the problem is that the majority doesn't give a shit about religion or atheism. The only ones who really care is a very influental core group of irrational catholics (who mostly stick to it because of tradition, and not because of belief), who think the christian religion is important for our identity and our morals. (even if they think the religious dogmas are actually bullshit.)
If actually all the poeple who don't even care enough about this stuff to even think about it, would vote, there would be 80% "I don't care", 10% very good and 10% it bothers me.
(BTW: If another person here refers to austrians oder people from vienna (dunno the correct english term) as "germans" I'm afraid some austrians might try to kill you - we're VERY senstitive about this stuff.)
Oh, and our beer is (hopefully) rather good.
Posted by: Anonymous | July 20, 2009 2:38 PM
Actually the opinion expressed by #36 was exactly the point of my original post.
It's a stupid sentiment and a stupid way of expressing it that totally misconstrues the facts. It's like saying that you await the day when gays are no longer trying to pass laws banning heterosexual marriage. The issue here is not atheist reactions to messages about the existence of God, it's the reaction of society to atheists and our ability to speak.
Posted by: darkwin | July 20, 2009 2:44 PM
next austrian guy here. Thank you for doing this PZ!
Posted by: darkwin | July 20, 2009 2:46 PM
next austrian guy here. Thank you for doing this PZ!
Posted by: Kinzua Kid | July 20, 2009 2:59 PM
Reynold @33:
I had to comment on that guy's article on his blog. I figured this one wasn't beefy enough for the Pharyngula hordes. i.e., it was stupid enough even I could tackle it. ;)
Posted by: AC | July 20, 2009 3:13 PM
When Genius Passes You By
By Texas Freedom Network, July 20, 2009
Who knew that all the world’s best climate scientists and their research could be proven wrong by a fringe political activist from Minnesota?
We told you in May that Don McLeroy, still chair of the Texas State Board of Education at the time, wanted to appoint to the social studies curriculum “expert panel” a political activist from Minnesota who made his career opposing abortion, homosexuality and a list of other “culture war” demons. Allen Quist — whose academic work includes a bachelor’s degree in psychology and a master’s degree in speech, but nothing in social studies – has also created a “curriculum module” that has students discuss historical “evidence” for the coexistence of humans and dinosaurs and the effects of “Darwinism” on American law and politics. Fortunately, Quist’s nomination to the “expert” panel failed for lack of support from a second board member.
But now this supposed social studies “expert” claims that a map from the 1500s, supposedly rediscovered in 1960 in government archives, proves that the world’s scientists are all wrong when it comes to global warming:
“The map demonstrates that Antarctica had been extensively explored and mapped long before it was known to the Western world. Since Antarctica was much warmer when some of the source-maps were drawn than it is today, the theory that man-made carbon dioxide emissions are the primary cause of climate change must be given up.”
So there you have it. All of the world’s best climate scientists can finally turn their attention to something else. And the United Nations Framework Convention on Climate Change in August can be cancelled. Quist has a map showing they’re all wrong! And to think that Texas students won’t be benefitting from this man’s genius…
Posted by: ecorona | July 20, 2009 3:32 PM
12:31 pm PDST
60.8% Ich finde sie sehr gut!
Posted by: Will | July 20, 2009 3:43 PM
If that were to happen in the US, you would likely see plenty of liberal Atheists become like the Libertarians and call for the end of income taxes.
Posted by: Will | July 20, 2009 3:48 PM
If that were to happen in the US, you would likely see plenty of liberal Atheists become like the libertarians by calling for an end to the income tax.
Posted by: Stu
|
July 20, 2009 3:49 PM
If that were to happen in the US
Indirectly, by granting them tax-exempt status, we ARE paying for churches.
Posted by: cartologist | July 20, 2009 3:49 PM
but it's ok to put stupid, innocuous,bumper stickers everywhere touting your god. e.g. " Are you ready for the rapture ? " These things make me want to write replies on the stickers but so far I have resisted the impulse.
Posted by: cartologist | July 20, 2009 3:51 PM
but it's ok to put stupid, innocuous bumper stickers everywhere touting your god. e.g. " Are you ready for the rapture ? " These things make me want to write replies on the stickers but so far I have resisted the impulse.
Posted by: Will | July 20, 2009 3:55 PM
Posted by: StuExactly. Which is why the churches should start paying their share of taxes or everyone else should stop paying.
Posted by: HenryS
|
July 20, 2009 4:04 PM
If that were to happen in the US
Indirectly, by granting them tax-exempt status, we ARE paying for churches.
**********
And paying directly through the "Faith Based" programs. During the Bush-ite years more than $6.7 billion. There was a hell of a building program for fundie churches beginning after 2000.
Obama is expanding the "Faith Based" programs and is improving it with the addition of Faith Based Policy offices. Basically religious commissars such as Alexia Kelly at HHS.
Posted by: gdhnz | July 20, 2009 4:05 PM
@diegopig #4
You'd think in Italy they'd have used the Roman Jupiter instead of the Greek Zeus.
Posted by: stuartvo@gmail.com | July 20, 2009 4:14 PM
gdhnz
It seems Roman gods are passe for some reason, even in Italy, and the original Greek gods are "in". Although in every dumb-ass movie or TV show, they always talk about Hercules, never Herakles.
My pointless observation for the day.
Posted by: «bønez_brigade»
|
July 20, 2009 4:17 PM
Abstimmen geben. (or something like that)
Posted by: tsg | July 20, 2009 4:19 PM
Right, because that some taxes are misused[1] means all of them are. :rolleyes:
[1] ie "I disagree with how they are used"
Posted by: tsg | July 20, 2009 4:21 PM
Strike my #103, I misread the comment.
Not that I agree with it, but my response doesn't make any sense.
Posted by: Atheist right here | July 20, 2009 4:46 PM
A bunch of losers in one spot. Atheists.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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July 20, 2009 4:48 PM
Steve LaBonne #80
I will toast you with my next glass of The Brown Dog or Bro Theo.
Posted by: Will | July 20, 2009 4:55 PM
I'm glad you caught that and corrected yourself. I said nothing about disagreeing with how tax money is used. I was criticizing the fact that some entities, churches, are exempt from paying taxes.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 20, 2009 5:00 PM
@ #106
both wonderful choices.
@ #105
I hope you didn't hurt yourself coming up with that brilliant comment. I suspect that the amount of brain power you expended coming up with that witty remark has taxed your already limited cognitive abilities. Perhaps you should take a nap until you're fully recharged?
Posted by: Steve LaBonne | July 20, 2009 5:06 PM
Speaking of North Coast Brewing, not only is Bro Theo great stuff but I prefer Pranqster to Duvel any day. (Haven't found their saison around these parts yet but I bet that's great too.)
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 20, 2009 5:10 PM
re: Taxing churches
IANAL but..
It works both ways folks. By giving them an exemption we also require (though its not enforced as often as it should be) that they do not become involved in the political process by supporting specific Candidates or Parties or campaigning against Candidates or Parties. There are also specific provisions about Lobbying for certain topics etc..
Now we all know they get around this frequently but if it becomes too much they can and do get punished for it.
I personally would rather them have their exemptions and at least keep the law there that they can not involve themselves in the process or be penalized and lose their 501c3 status.
Posted by: shonny | July 20, 2009 5:16 PM
Ah, so you haven't noticed those fish outlines that the ones wanting to tell the world they are fuckwits have on their cars?
Posted by: chanson | July 20, 2009 5:23 PM
Re #10: We do however have countless religious posters along the streets and in many other places. And I've never thought of Switzerland (esp. the protestant cantons) as a religious country...
I was going to say the same thing. In Switzerland, I see religious advertising constantly. It would appear that there are public display cases that are set aside in perpetuity for religions to post whatever messages they like (see, for example, the tramway stop of the Zurich Zoo).
If it's true that the atheists in Switzerland have tried to buy some bus or tram ads and were rejected, then that's shockingly unfair! I wonder if there's something I can do about it...
Posted by: druidbros | July 20, 2009 5:45 PM
Bob @ 29, How do you like living in Costa Rica?
Posted by: Mr Boisvert | July 20, 2009 5:53 PM
I thought the bus campaign in England was absolutely justified because it was in response to the Church's campaign.
On the other hand, there was a similar 'there's probably no God' bus thing in Quebec which was not a response. I thought that was a pretty pointless move. Given the cultural situation in Quebec, it seems a pretty 'Aunicornist' approach. I'm wondering what you masses think about that.
Posted by: Autumn | July 20, 2009 6:13 PM
One reason that these bus campaigns are a good idea is that humans are so prone to grouping themselves into in/out dichotomies. Simply knowing that there are others who think like you do is very comforting.
Posted by: Dan
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July 20, 2009 6:48 PM
@Rev. BigDumbChimp
So if I agree not to become involved in the political process then I can get tax exemption too?
Of course not. The fact that churches are regulated is hardly the flip side of the fact that they are exempt. It is merely a minor restriction. (Which they flaunt anyway, but that's another matter.)
Let's not pretend that the two "ways" somehow balance...
Posted by: Marc Abian | July 20, 2009 7:01 PM
I'm interested too. What's the energy situation like over there? Is everything powered by hydroelectricty?
Posted by: Guardian of the Poll | July 20, 2009 7:15 PM
Another poll fornication attempt? Now we are fornicating foreign polls as well? WOW! I never knew PZ had it in him to fornication foreign polls. Does this make him and you all an illgal poll fornication alien?
HEIL PZ MYERS!
HEIL POLL FORNICATORS! HEIL!
Posted by: Evil Merodach | July 20, 2009 7:17 PM
We have atheist bus signs on Metro Transit here in Seattle and, I'm proud to say, it's been met with total nonchalance.
Posted by: Janine, OMnivore | July 20, 2009 7:21 PM
The twit has pulled a Godwin. Gurardian, go copulate with a telephone pole.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 20, 2009 7:24 PM
"illegal poll fornication alien?"
English, do you speak it?
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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July 20, 2009 7:27 PM
Guardian is bbbooorrriiinnngggg, and meaningless.
Posted by: Guardian of the Poll | July 20, 2009 7:37 PM
"We have atheist bus signs on Metro Transit here in Seattle and, I'm proud to say, it's been met with total nonchalance. "
-----
There is a reason for that. YOU LIVE ON THE LEFT COAST! Seattle, besides San Fransicko, is one of the most fascist left wing militant places in the nation. Where is that asteroid or earthquake when we need it? Wish I had HAARP. There would be an end to this disaster called the left coast.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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July 20, 2009 7:41 PM
Another conservative showing his love and respect for his country and his fellow citizens.
Posted by: Guardian of the Poll | July 20, 2009 7:44 PM
Might I also add that if one of these buses carrying a libtard socialist atheist message were seen in my state, it would not survive the night. I am quit sure some of these good ole boys would render it useless and salvage the rest for scrap metal and burn the poster as firewood starter.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 20, 2009 7:46 PM
seattle? militant?
BWAHAHAHAAAAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 20, 2009 7:48 PM
#125 = Vandalism for Jesus. I'm sure you're making your god proud.
Posted by: tomh | July 20, 2009 7:49 PM
@ #114 Mr Boisvert wrote:
I thought the bus campaign in England was absolutely justified because it was in response to the Church's campaign.
On the other hand, there was a similar 'there's probably no God' bus thing in Quebec which was not a response.
Why does it have to be a response to something to be justified? The Christian signs that are so prevalent aren't a response to anything, they're just expressing their opinion. Why shouldn't atheists do the same thing?
Posted by: Holbach
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July 20, 2009 7:53 PM
Atheist right here @ 105
That one bunch of atheists represents all the brain power, reason and integrity that several billion religion -strickened morons ever hope to muster. Really pisses you off eh, that you know we are the rational ones and your besopped brain only has the power to imagine your god. Suffer, moron.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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July 20, 2009 7:57 PM
Ol' Guardian is certainly showing his respect for the Constitution, especially freedom of thought and freedom of speech. Oh, right, I forgot, he's a RWN. He hates the Bill of Rights (except for the Second Amendment, of course) and despises everyone who isn't in lockstep with his political masters.
Posted by: indigomyth | July 20, 2009 7:59 PM
I came across this article (http://www.socyberty.com/Religion/Christians-Carnivals-Shakespeare-and-Atheists.857791) and just thought you would all love to read it. Is this the epitome of stupid or what? My absolute favourite bit has to be
//The first problem with this is that it violates the laws of statistical impossibility. Something that has an exponentially small chance of happening is statistically impossible. //
Enjoy.
Posted by: Rey Fox | July 20, 2009 8:01 PM
It's "Guradian", people. Spell it right.
Posted by: Holbach
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July 20, 2009 8:04 PM
Will @ 98
I have always said that not only should all churches and property be taxed, but retroactive to the time the first chuch was built to get the deranged masses established. Tax the hell out of them, and when the morons, er, parishoners, balk at having to cough of more to keep the houses of insanity solvent, why then, they will have the only recourse available to them; their imaginary god. It will most definitely come to their aid in a split second. Without a doubt. Here it comes. Where?
Posted by: Holbach
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July 20, 2009 8:13 PM
Guardian of the Poll 2 125
Why don't those cretins just leave the bus alone and see what their god can do in rendering it to rubble? A powerful god can do anything without puny human intervention. Or don't you believe this, and hand us that crap that your god helps those who help themselves no matter what. Insane religious bullshit. Your imaginary god is bullshit, couched in the good ole boy mentality of shit morons.
Posted by: DLC | July 20, 2009 8:27 PM
Dammit people! how can we Frame Science when you Militant Atheists™ keep causing disruptions by oppressing the poor downtrodden adherents to Chrislam ? [/pearl-clutch]
You're so Horrible! I think I'm getting an attack of the vapors!
Posted by: Guardian of the Poll | July 20, 2009 8:31 PM
I have always said that not only should all churches and property be taxed, but retroactive to the time the first chuch was built to get the deranged masses established. Tax the hell out of them, and when the morons, er, parishoners, balk at having to cough of more to keep the houses of insanity solvent, why then, they will have the only recourse available to them; their imaginary god. It will most definitely come to their aid in a split second. Without a doubt. Here it comes. Where?
----------------
If that ever happens, people will start having unofficial church servces in their house late a night. A secret underground church if you will. just like CHINA! Communism doesn't defeat the church. Nor does liberalism, marxism, and socialism.
________________________________________________
Ol' Guardian is certainly showing his respect for the Constitution, especially freedom of thought and freedom of speech"
Look who's talking. You elected one of the most militant left wing fascist hippy radicals of all time to the white house. He definitely does ot respect the constitutuion and especially the 1st and 2nd amendments.
Posted by: 'Tis Himself, Quel Dommage
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July 20, 2009 8:44 PM
The stupid just rolls on and on. It's amazing that the Guradian can sit upright and breathe simultaneously, let alone type on a keyboard.
Posted by: Crudely Wrott | July 20, 2009 8:44 PM
@ Gee of the Pee:
I've known my share of good ol' boys like you. Big on noise, small on substance. You and yours have gotten everything figured out but because you are poor at handling changing conditions you haven't the first idea what to do with your convictions.
Go ahead, make some more noise. Some of us really like the entertainment.
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | July 20, 2009 8:50 PM
Praise the Lord for your forthright speaking out, Brother Guardian.
Quietly, I have already started an unofficial Church. It is called the Church of the Eternal Blow Job. It combines fellowship with fellatio. Why don't you come along and enjoy getting filled with the Spirit?
My friend Floyd Rubber says that with a mouth as big as yours you should experience the gift of tongues quite quickly.
Yours in Christian communion
Smoggy
Posted by: Holbach
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July 20, 2009 8:55 PM
Guaedian of the Poll @ 136
There you go, a simple solution to keep religious insanity secret and free! Unofficial church services in their house late at night! Hell, why didn't I think of that? You make it sound as if "you'll be sorry" not to see insane rituals paraded around with the attendant demented hordes foaming at the mouth with visions and sightings of all manner of imaginary things that cause mass hysteria and dementia. A secret underground church if you will? By all means bury it underground, preferably beneath the spent atomic wastes in Nevada or wherever it will be neutralized to nothing. Of course your god will not approve of being buried out of sight of the demented hordes, and will spring forth to once again embalm the afflicted with visions of salvation with crackers.
Posted by: Nerd of Redhead, OM
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July 20, 2009 9:04 PM
Guardian, still no evidence other than bombast and the illogic of godbotting that you are correct. What a shithead. You have nothing. And will have nothing until you see reality, and acknowledge your imaginary dog is delusion between your ears.
Posted by: Gruesome Rob | July 20, 2009 10:11 PM
@Smoggy #139:
You really need to get that church recognized in Ireland. And being the devout person you are, sue everyone there that blasphemes it.
Posted by: Dan
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July 20, 2009 10:31 PM
Surely G of the P has got to be a Poe...
Anyway, he's quite creative, in a bat-shit crazy sort of way. I'm particularly amused how not giving churches exemption is communism. Nice one. :)
But you haven't really gone far enough. Surely the fact that prayer in school is not mandated means that the souls of the children are being destroyed? -- think of it as really evil really late term abortion. Every soul is sacred, and the government should support prayer in school so that children don't go to hell.
Afterall, the government already supports churches through the exemption, why not go further, right?
Posted by: Smoggy Batzrubble | July 21, 2009 12:18 AM
Dear Brother Gruesome Rob @142
I am hoping to get my Church of the Eternal Blow Job recognized internationally and universally adopted. In my experience people with their mouths full find it very hard to blaspheme.
Tongues for Jesus!
Smoggy
A Short History of the Origins of the Church of the Eternal Blow-Job.
Posted by: Bhima | July 21, 2009 7:29 AM
I live in Austria... in my experience Austrians are overwhelmingly catholic (like 96%) and substantially skeptical, like large minority 20-30% not buying into church dogma or believing in gods. So there are a lot of folks self identifying as Catholics who are actually agnostics. This actually describes the vast majority of my friends.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 21, 2009 8:53 AM
Dan
Sigh.
Dan, are you a non profit organization? Did you bother to even look at the link I provided?
Do you meet these requirements?
?
Exactly. Instead of trying to be snarkily clever, you could have just read the 501c3 code yourself and found out what the exemption means. The link above is to the actual tax code not some strawman version of it.
I didn't say it balanced, but if you start taxing them then they have a legitimate way and right to be involved in the political process. And it's hardly a "minor restriction". You think it's bad now how they interfere? Just wait until you legitimize their stake in the political process.
And also 501c3 isn't just about political actions, See Sen. Grassley's recent investigation.
And yes while it isn't enforced as much as it should be, it is enforced. Since the code isn't enforced as stringently as it should, is your answer to the problems no one is denying that it is then useless and should be scrapped?
Who said anything about balance? Do you think all things in the tax code or law for that matter are instituted for perfect "balance"? Lets not be naive about what would happen if they had free reign to affect the political process not to mention have free reign to make money as they please. Taxed or not the amount of money they can generate essentially as any other business would be impressive. Think about the power that grants them not only in the power purely gained with wealth, but the power that money represents when used to influence elections.
This is a pretty good example of the Separation of Church and State in action. Keep the government out of the church and the church out of the government.
Posted by: Alex Bruckner | July 21, 2009 9:27 AM
It's about time that arch-catholic countries like Austria wake up to the fact that their life styles are influenced and very often compromised by religious dogma. Whilst they seem to live double lives in that they manage to have mainly alcohol influenced fun on the one hand and then pretending to be devout catholics at sunday mass on the other, it is of utter importance that the ruling of a country should not be influenced by thoughts about imaginary friends even if Machiavelli would have suggested otherwise... this is the 21st century and whilst we should keep the middle ages as part of our history, we should learn from the mistakes made then (from the populus perspective) and vehemently oppose the reapplication of the power provided by religion to politics by misleading the ignorant flock to meet one's own ends. It worked then, hopefully we can stop it from working now.
Posted by: Lynna | July 21, 2009 12:38 PM
Christians are buying up billboard space to combat the separation of church and state. See
http://www.tampabay.com/news/politics/article1020144.ece
Excerpt: The message, as explained on www.noseparation.org, is that "America's government was made only for people who are moral and religious."
Posted by: Holbach
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July 21, 2009 1:50 PM
Rev Big Dumb Chimp @ 110
The problem with your opined solution at the end of your comment to allow churches their tax exempt status, is in my mind, to let them off too easy in a situation which they have practically forced and endowed on the status quo. To have them promise(not always abided) not to politicize and keep their insane paws out of the public trough, is to me the same as having a criminal continue with his behavior as long as he does not commit murder. "Go on burglarizing and other mayhem, and as long as you don't commit murder we will not interfere with your other activities". No, not good, and this only enhances religion's separation from public scrutiny and control. I will give no quarter to religion as you most definitely are aware of by now from my passioned opinions of religion. Tax all religions and let their god take care of them.
Posted by: Stu
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July 21, 2009 2:42 PM
Tax all religions and let their god take care of them.
That's not fair. Jesus is really, really bad with money.
Posted by: Holbach
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July 21, 2009 2:48 PM
Stu @ 150
I don't see what a powerful god would want with money, especially when it was created by humans. So this god created humans who created money; some cycle to explain the whole insane fiasco.
Posted by: Stu
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July 21, 2009 2:56 PM
Oh, I don't think it's God, per se -- it's those Peterites that seem to blow it on churches, TV channels and priestly moving expenses.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 21, 2009 3:02 PM
I'm not suggesting they are getting a pass in the law. The problem is in the enforcement of the law sucks.
I don't want them having free reign to make and spend money like a corporation. In my mind that makes them way more dangerous.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 21, 2009 3:13 PM
You'll find the churches do not share your idea that they forced this on us. There's nothing more they want that to have those restrictions removed.
Should we then just make murder legal?
The 501c3 law details more than just political activities. Again this is an enforcement issue rather than a letter of the law issue (IANAL of course).
Not really, AFAIK once they are a 501c3 the government gets full view of their books, business dealings, and hiring practices etc.. There is a fair amount of scrutiny and control that is available.
Oh yeah I definitely know ;)
In my mind this isn't giving any quarter. This is limiting the power of religion to become involved in the process as well as putting some control over what they currently do.
Once those restrictions are removed there is no barrier to them meddling in the public sector. This is separation.
Posted by: Holbach
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July 21, 2009 4:10 PM
RevBigDumbChimp @ 154
So in a sense their gods play no part in the scheme of things as it is all human directed. Religion as not lost any of its power to influence though conceivably limited to not politicizing or going into business as other corporations. They are still making much money with their god donations and other nefarious schemes out of view of the scrutinizing public eye. I still say tax them equivocally as any business as they are selling the god idea and raking in the millions from the fleeced sheep. Their recourse should be to the giver of their religion, and if it does not come across as I am sure the fleeced morons will also surely object to most strenously, then they will have to go down without their god and earthly support. How can this possibly happen, giving the strength of believers at question? Tax the hell out of them. Their god will surely come through.
Posted by: Stu
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July 21, 2009 4:47 PM
I don't want them having free reign to make and spend money like a corporation.
True enough, but I don't want corporations to have free reign to spend money the way they do. It's patently ridiculous for a corporation to have rights as an entity at all. As of right now, I think corporations are doing more damage than churches ever would (social issues excepted).
Posted by: Colin | July 21, 2009 6:26 PM
1) I don't know whether anyone in the five thousand miles of comments above me has pointed this out, but the AG-ATHE and other organisations weren't able to post their adverts on buses. They were, however, able to campaign with static advertising spots. I'm originally German (currently living in Frankfurt) and I have a more accurate summary of the situation on my blog at http://www.blue-genes.net , in case anyone's interested.
2) I really loved the idea in comment #4 that the Italians changed their adverts from 'God' to 'Zeus', but I can't find any evidence to back it up. I hope someone can prove me wrong though, because the Zeus phrase is so nice.
Posted by: Colin | July 21, 2009 6:29 PM
Sorry, I should probably have given the URL for the post itself: http://www.blue-genes.net/2009/07/the-austrian-atheist-campaigns-adverts-in-vienna/
Enjoy!
Posted by: Dan
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July 21, 2009 6:41 PM
Rev,
Yes, I'm familiar with the link you sent me; as you can probably tell, this is a hobby horse of mine. ;)
What we choose to put on the list is our (as in legislative) decision. Arbitrary.
I don't have time to argue at length at the moment, but indulge me for one more point:
Exempting churches is bad for business, where the work of churches overlaps with taxed, for-profit businesses. (This is quite common.) If they want to be a charity, they should file under that, not under religious org.
Therefore, churches are being subsidized. Restrictions on political activity don't come into it; that question is orthogonal.
I'm sorry I may have read too much subtext into your phrase "It works both ways folks".
Peace.
Posted by: Dan
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July 21, 2009 6:43 PM
PS: Agree wholeheartedly with Stu @ #156.
Posted by: Tim Danaher | July 22, 2009 3:51 PM
Bit late to this, but a 'Schlagersänger' is definitely NOT a folk singer.. it's something far more terrible and Germanic.
They're the musical equivalent of televangelists, all blazing teeth, vulgar jewellry and bouffant hair. And shit, shit, shit music.
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heino (see what I mean?)
Very popular in Germany.
And 'Czech Schlagersänger..." gotta love that bit of casual racism from the Austrians, bless 'em.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 22, 2009 4:02 PM
[again getting an Apache server error when I try and post]
I've refreshed multiple times so if this doubles up...
Arbitrary if you ignore the reasons that they were put on the list. Maybe I don't understand what you mean there?
Lots of things the government does is bad for business, just ask our free market friends who pop up here fairly frequently. Business's well being isn't the only or main concern of the government. There are regulations on many things that are put into place as protections. The 501c3 does not just benefit churches, it also protects us from their unabated influence on business and politics. Is it executed as well as I would like it? Hell no. But I do not want the Churches to be able to use their power over their flock more than it already does. Taxing them gives them the right to do just that.
AFAIK, Churches are automatically designated 501c3, it's not a choice. Again the issue is the piss poor enforcement of the existing law.
Explain to me which work churches do that overlaps with for profit businesses that isn't regulated by the 501c3 designation? I'm more than willing to admit I'm missing somethign here.
There are more restrictions than just the political. Again, look at what Sen. Grassley is investigating.
No worries
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 22, 2009 4:04 PM
Maybe it's the caffeine come down at the end of the day, so please forgive me, I'm not sure what you are getting at there Holbach.
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 22, 2009 11:11 PM
as always ignore the above typos
especially this one
Posted by: Rev. BigDumbChimp | July 23, 2009 7:45 AM
I'm completely in favor of the separation of Church and State. My idea is that these two institutions screw us up enough on their own, so both of them together is certain death. [George Carlin]
Posted by: Frederic Fol Leymarie | July 25, 2009 9:04 AM
the stats have changed..
on July 25th, 14h GMT, the percentages are:
Was ist Ihre Meinung zu der Atheismus-Kampagne?
68,4 % Ich finde sie sehr gut.
24,03 % Sie stört mich.
7,57 % Sie ist mir egal.
I see a trend ..
F