…and this is a 
Yesterday was my last day in Lindau, I'm sorry to say — it was also the day of the closing ceremonies on the island of Mainau, in case you were wondering why it was so quiet on the blog. I decided to leave all my electronical gear behind at the hotel and venture out for the last session with a stark naked brain.
The day began with a walk down to the harbor to board the Sonnenkönigin, a very impressive ship that can only be inadequately be called a ferry. We were welcomed aboard with a glass of wine or a glass of juice if you felt 8 am was a little early to begin, and tables heaped with food. One thing I'm going to miss a great deal when I get back to Minnesota is good bread — the stuff that is chewy and substantial and has all this flavor. Bread back home is a kind of glorified aerogel, a pale and puffy spongy substance.
We also got some musical entertainment, and a lot of hard sell for the German province of Baden-Württemburg. They can do everything, except speak proper German (really, it's their motto: "Wir können alles. Außer Hoch-Deutsch.") They put on a good show with lots of exhibits touting their support for basic research and industry — if nothing else, I'm convinced they value the practical benefits of science enough to heavily recruit mobs of graduate students.
Mainau is a lovely island in Lake Constance, topped with an old baroque Schloss and filled with gardens and walking paths. We were there for a final panel on sustainability. The panel consisted of four nobelists, Pachauri, Molina, Schrock, and Stocker, one government minister, whose name I've probably misspelled since her tag was turned away from me — Quellen-Thielen, I believe — and one annoying crackpot, Bjorn Lomborg, who really didn't belong up on the stage. Even as insubstantial as he was, though, Lomborg did agree, along with every one else, that climate change and global warming are real phenomena. Here's a short summary of what they said.
Pachauri: Our big problem is unsustainable growth. It's inevitable and desirable that third-world economies expand, but the old strategies of exploiting fossil fuels aren't going to work.
Lomborg: While global warming is real, it's not a crucial problem, since it will only cost 0.5% of world GDP to cope with it. He's pro-development, and thinks, for example, that while global warming may increase the incidence of malaria by 3% more, we ought to be focusing on the 100% of malaria cases occurring now rather than trying to reduce the 3%. We need to invest in better technology, but imposing limitations on CO2 emissions now is fruitless.
Molina: We aren't taking the right path in growing economies — we need to convince the world that building sustainable energy supplies and limiting environmental damage now is the best viable long-term strategy. He had to take a poke at Lomborg, too: putting a dollar value on irreversible changes is inappropriate and misleading. Focusing on one aspect of the problem and calling the cost increases and human losses manageable hides the risks of passing a tipping point. He favors, as an important early step, incorporating the costs of externalities such as CO2 emission into the economy.
Quellen-Thielen (sp?): Germany takes climate change seriously, and the government sets policies and targets for emissions. They also materially support new technologies, like photovoltaics. These actions have not harmed the economy but instead have created new jobs and positioned Germany as a global leader.
This prompted one of the more obnoxious jabs from Lomborg, who literally sneered at German environmental efforts, pointing out that all the photocells Germany has built are already obsolete, and that it was just money thrown down the drain. Throughout, Lomborg took the attitude that direct action now is inefficient, and that we're better off waiting for new technologies to emerge, at which time the magic of the market will kick in and our problems will go away. Quellen-Thielen reasonably pointed out that their development now means they've got a leg up, that they're obtaining a reasonable fraction of their energy directly from the sun right now, and they are also building the industrial infrastructure to build on new ideas quickly.
Schrock: He was a bit out of place here; I think the presence of Lomborg effectively derailed the whole panel away from a discussion of a diversity of solutions to the global warming and into a wasted defense of the rightness of taking any policy action at all. Schrock clearly wanted to talk about catalysis and the importance of chemistry in generating technical solutions, and advocated more investment in basic as well as applied research — he fears that we could lose the potential for long-term improvements in a frantic search for solutions we can implement right now.
Stocker: he also spoke against the bean-counter on the panel, pointing out that the 2003 heat wave killed thousands, and within 30 years, that kind of event will likely have a frequency of every other year. He thinks global warming is a misnomer: it's more than just a temperature shift, but it's going to lead to a sea level rise, changes in the availability of water resources in some of the most heavily populated areas of the world, and is going to trigger resource wars that will be devastating. He pointed out that this really is an anomalous event in our history, that CO2 is 29% higher than at any time in the last 850,000 years. He believes we need a globally binding emissions target set right away.
So it was a mildly interesting discussion, but it could have been so much better — I suspect someone noticed it was hard to find a strong contrarian among Nobel prize winners, and decided to bring in a last-minute alternative view. Unfortunately, Lomborg's basically an advocate for do-nothingness and did nothing but distract the others from wrestling with more substantial ideas.
After sitting in the sun for this outdoor panel, I got a sunburn and a strong desire to escape, so I spent the time afterwards wandering about in the gardens. Then the best part, getting back on the Sonnenkönigin and being handed a big mug of cold beer as I boarded. I'm beginning to get the impression that all bier in Deutschland ist frei. That can't be true, but empirically it seems to be the case. Or maybe it's just Baden-Württemburg's cunning plan to persuade us that southwestern Germany is paradise.
We had more entertainment on the trip back — Stuart Pivar was aboard, doing tricks with balloons! No, actually it was some other guy who made balloon molecules, as well as strange hats. I guess the guy just looked at me and decided I needed more tentacles.
He also made a buckyball out of balloons, and guess who ended up wearing that on his head?
Sir Harold Kroto
And that's all there was. A great meeting overall, lots of fun, and lots of networking. The majority of the attendees are graduate students who are brought over to hob-nob with the biggest of the big-wigs of science, and most importantly, make international connections with their peers. Any graduate student readers of this post: ask around in your department if anyone knows about nominations for the Lindau meetings. They are definitely worth attending for young people wanting to get involved in this global enterprise called science.
One evening after the talks, when we were hanging about in a gasthof enjoying some good food and beer, the Countess Bettina Bernadotte stopped by our table (Yes! You also get to meet European nobility!), and we all talked a bit about the meetings. She's the president of the council for the meetings, and puts a tremendous amount of effort and fund-raising to get them off the ground. When asked why she was doing it, the answer was simple: that while she gets no direct personal or material gain from the meetings, as a citizen of the world she feels an obligation to make a contribution to bettering the world's knowledge, and this is an opportunity to foster a positive benefit to science. The whole meeting is built around giving young investigators connections.
Now I'm on my long, slow way home. It was worth it, and hope I can go again.
Tonight I'm in the city of Friedrichshafen, home of the zeppelin (I asked if there were any connecting flights by zeppelin, but I'm out of luck and will have to take an Airbus tomorrow, instead.) Then I'm off to Frankfurt, Philadelphia, and finally, Minneapolis. All should be smooth this time — I don't have any too-short layovers on this trip.
Now I'm going to stroll about and use the Fourth of July to celebrate the 90th anniversary of the first transatlantic zeppelin flight — I noticed that there was a big brass band down by the harbor, with fellows in bright green uniforms and tall hats with tassels. It should be fun!
Environment
Comments
Posted by: JD | July 4, 2009 11:10 AM
Free beer will save the environment.
Posted by: Rorschach | July 4, 2009 11:12 AM
It's Baden-Wuerttemberg.
And I think that's the chick :
Quennet-Thielen
Nice pics PZ,have a safe trip home !
Posted by: Angel Kaida | July 4, 2009 11:27 AM
Great hats... I think that would be a *great* dominant image of atheism. Atheists are... adorable and happy!
Also, PZ, you could just bake bread. It's really easy, actually, if you have time, and I think it's less expensive than purchasing it. :)
Posted by: Sven DiMilo | July 4, 2009 11:28 AM
I laughed long time.
Posted by: Sili
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July 4, 2009 11:40 AM
Yes, please.Well, sir Harold is used to balancing buckyballs on his head. He even teaches it to kids all over the world: fullerenic meditation.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 4, 2009 11:42 AM
Angel, where do you live, and how do I get you to make me bucketloads of German bread?
:-p
You're right though, I SHOULD learn how to bake the stuff. I miss it dearly. Eating American bread is like eating cotton balls. :-/
Another thing on the list of things I miss about home *sigh*
Posted by: Tim H | July 4, 2009 11:44 AM
I would prefer that the dominant image of atheism involve a darker beer than that. Lighter beers should be considered for use in recessive images. But I admit is simply a matter of personal taste.
Posted by: Angel Kaida | July 4, 2009 11:47 AM
Actually, Jadehawk, I live in North Dakota right now! The state's not that big, we can't be too far apart. But unfortunately, I just meant bread generally, since I thought PZ's description was referring to yucky packaged loaves.
Posted by: PZ Myers
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July 4, 2009 11:52 AM
Well, when I have a choice, I drink the dark...but the light beer here was the FREE BEER. One does not turn up one's nose at the FREE BEER.
Posted by: Patricia, OM
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July 4, 2009 12:08 PM
Portland, Oregon has a German bakery on the east end of Sandy Blvd. One block down from it is a German Deli (with beer). We buy lots of goodies there. The bakery has a pie type thing made of plums called "kooken". I know I'm spelling it wrong, but it's soooo good, just had to recommend it.
Oh yeah, they have Vampire wine too.
Posted by: Joe | July 4, 2009 12:11 PM
The most fun I've ever had in my life was at an engineering conference in Germany. 100% agreement on beer and bread.
Posted by: Rieux | July 4, 2009 12:23 PM
I was an exchange student in Baden-Württemberg in high school; I like it a lot, though plenty of Germans (such as most of the all-Northern faculty in the German Department at my college) regard it and the other southern state--Bavaria--as provincial and low-class.
Just realized: hey, it's where I was when I realized at age 17 that I didn't believe in gods.
Stuttgart, the capital of B-W, reminds me quite a bit of home in Minneapolis-St. Paul: similar size, similar cultural institutions, similar surroundings in agricultural land. Warmer, though.
Whether all of this this makes B-W a fabulous home for scientific investment and exploration I have no idea.
Go, VfB Stuttgart!
(Patricia, it's spelled Kuchen. Given the plum content, it's very likely Pflaumkuchen.)
Posted by: Blake Stacey | July 4, 2009 12:31 PM
I believe this is a special case of the general theorem that everything tastes better when it's free (otherwise known as the First Law of Graduate School).
I for one welcome our new godless chthonic overlords!
(Although, if we could ever get those photos out of Ben Goldacre, the dominant image of atheism would be even more intimidating.)
Posted by: 'Tis Himself
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July 4, 2009 12:45 PM
We need to throw in a big, double-helping of not only yes but SURE AS DEATH YES! on this idea. The hidden costs should stop being hidden. That includes the human costs as well as the economic costs.
If the sea level rises by one meter than 50% of Bangladesh becomes uninhabitable. Some predictions have sea level rising by 1.5 meters by 2100.
Posted by: Mozglubov | July 4, 2009 12:48 PM
Yeah, I had not heard of the Lindau meetings before this, but now I am highly jealous and hope to somehow finagle my way into getting an invitation in a few years...
Posted by: Brian D | July 4, 2009 12:50 PM
Lomborg is a political scientist and is a class above your usual inactivist. The fact that he shows up at presentations with Nobel laureates should be the first clue.
A very good analysis of his strategy can be found at Bjorn Lomborg: Playing the Long Game. It's insidiously cunning.
Posted by: Brian D | July 4, 2009 12:52 PM
Lomborg is a political scientist and is a class above your usual inactivist. The fact that he shows up at presentations with Nobel laureates should be the first clue.
A very good analysis of his strategy can be found at Bjorn Lomborg: Playing the Long Game. It's insidiously cunning.
Posted by: p | July 4, 2009 1:05 PM
Friedrichshafen! I'm jealous. Hugo Eckener is one of my heroes! Have a safe trip home.
Posted by: catta
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July 4, 2009 1:18 PM
Yay! Glad you enjoyed it, PZ!
I second Angel's comment: bake your own bread. It's easy and it's tasty. If you want to avoid even the bit of work that comes with oven-baking it, a bread maker really helps. Dump in the ingredients, push a button, and you're done - and if you can get your hands on some sourdough, nothing stands in the way of delicious chewiness.
I really missed German bread when I lived in the US, too. However, one of the most fun experiences you can have is introducing a German to Wonderbread. The reaction is always, always a sight to behold. "But... but... it bounces! Is it supposed to do that?"
Posted by: one-eyed squidman | July 4, 2009 1:22 PM
probably the one thing I've never understood is that if oil is so damn precious, why is it so damn cheap?
TAX IT!!!
then people will not build cities with 5 lane highways, and with nothing in walking distance. Instead, they will condense everything so that you can bike and walk all over the place. And public transport using light-rail/metro will become much more common place because it will essentially be an economic requirement, instead of optional.
Problem solved. Heck, I'll be happy when oil hits $10 a gallon. It will be good for the world.
Posted by: Haruhiist | July 4, 2009 1:29 PM
@catta: That is the worst description of bread I've ever heard 0_o It bounces?
I don't know what kind of bread PZ is referring to, the only 'german' bread I eat regularly is what the dutch call a 'kaiserbroodje'..
But if we are to nominate good types of bread, may I suggest the brown bread you can buy in a Dutch bakery? If it's baked that morning, it's really good:)
Posted by: Rieux | July 4, 2009 1:40 PM
Aha--a terrific opportunity for a meaningless nitpick.
one-eyed squidman @ #20:
Well, with oil currently at $65.63 a barrel and 42 gallons per barrel, oil's currently $1.56 a gallon.$10/gallon--$420/barrel--would prompt a serious reshuffling of the global economic picture.
What with refining and distribution and whatnot, a gallon of gasoline is a notably different thing than a gallon of oil, but my meaningless nitpicking work here is done....
Posted by: DJ | July 4, 2009 1:44 PM
#10
Another reason to love Portland. I'm so tempted to quit school and just move out there. No more temptations please!
Posted by: Paguroidea | July 4, 2009 1:59 PM
Safe travels home, PZ! Thanks for all of the great science posts on the meeting. I enjoyed reading them. I was unaware of this meeting before you wrote about it.
Posted by: Wildflower | July 4, 2009 2:01 PM
@Haruhiist
I believe Catta was referring to some kind of American bread. From my experience there isn't much difference between Dutch and German bread and bakery products in general (other than perhaps some extra weed :P).
@one-eyed squidman
That's probably due to American politicians not being able to establish those taxes (if they ever tried in the past): Tax-free oil, V6-V8 motors and 3t cars seem to be something that people themselves consider the "American way of life". I'm not trying to be judgmental, just offering an observation.
Anyway, in most (if not all) central European countries all kinds of petrol, with the exception of heating-oil (it contains extra chemicals that render it useless for other purposes), are taxed. Current price for petrol is 7.16 dollars per gallon in Germany.
Posted by: Ferrous Patella | July 4, 2009 2:04 PM
I used to dance in a clogging troupe. For our German tour, final number was named:
Our Feet are Sane
Posted by: Haruhiist | July 4, 2009 2:14 PM
@Wildflower: I kinda knew there was little difference already, but I have to uphold national pride, don't I?
Besides, the weed-enhanced bakery products aren't available from actual bakeries:p
*I just looked up some pictures of that wonderbread.. it doesn't even look tasty
Posted by: Zar | July 4, 2009 2:15 PM
Beer isn't free, but I found that it's cheaper than water most of the time. And the bread... oh the amazing bread. I cried when I had to go back to eating American cotton-loaves.
B-W is a gorgeous area, though. Heidelberg is really beautiful---it's one of the few cities that made it through WWII intact, and has a lot of original architecture left. And Baden-Baden is a gorgeous place full of hot springs...
Dammit I miss Germany.
Posted by: Wildflower | July 4, 2009 2:23 PM
@Haruhiist
Haha, sorry, I didn't mean to impose on your national pride! ^.^
And yeah, I've been to the states once for 3 months (California, mostly LA) and while most of my memories are very fond ones, bread certainly isn't among them. The bread tasted like recycled paper and there's some sort of chocolate pie that still haunts me. I don't remember the name but from the taste of it the ingredients must be 90% sugar, 9% chocolate, 1% glue... sickeningly sweet. On the other hand, American friends from the east coast are frequently reporting that they actually do have decent bread there.
Posted by: Peter Ashby | July 4, 2009 2:25 PM
Re Bread: I make my own gluten free bread, both by hand and using a breadmaker. I started because the stuff in the supermarket is pants*. My wife has always baked occasionally (her buns are fantastic) so I had a good example. I have just had a hot minute steak sandwich with caramelised red onions and gorgonzola in a GF ciabatta bun I made earlier, par cooked and froze. It is just like a proper ciabatta.
*Because it is also egg and dairy free, which I can understand, shelf space etc. However their GF ciabatta is pants and mine doesn't have eggs or milk in either so something else is dodgy there too. From what I have heard about American bread if we moved and I was not GF we would make all our own too.
Re Beer: as an afficianado of dark beers I must say that the Germans do very good light beers. I am particularly partial to the Köln brew, lovely biscuity malt, wish I could remember the brewery name from there. Also it has been hot over here in Europe and such beer is therefore called for since it enables you to drink more, sorry assuage your thirst more deeply.
Posted by: Marc Abian | July 4, 2009 2:29 PM
Just be patient. Though I doubt you'll stick by this statement once it happens.
Does anyone know some oilshock-proof investments?
Hey come on now, we can't very well have our offical atheist spokesperson turning jewish on us can we?
Posted by: gaypaganunitarianagnostic | July 4, 2009 2:36 PM
Being an airship fan from childhood, I would love to be in Fredrichshafen. Costs a couple of hundred euros for a flight in a ntz, I understand. Saw a new tech Zep on the ground in Beaumont, Tx, but didn't get to see it in flight.
The R 34 was not a true Zeppelin, of course. Some of the late WWI Zeps had the range to cross the Atlantic. The first true Zeppelin to cross the Atlantic was the LZ 126 - Zr 3 - Los Angeles
Posted by: James F | July 4, 2009 4:52 PM
The Germans have lembas?
Posted by: catta
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July 4, 2009 5:03 PM
@Haruhiist: Yes, I was referring to a specific American brand of bread. And yes, "it bounces" is its worst feature, and yet an accurate description of Wonderbread. Therefore it usually causes wonder and amazement when shown to Germans. I have heard friend-of-a-friend reports of someone nearly being thrown out of a supermarket for squishing it and watching it resume its former shape, as if in a trance...
Posted by: graeme | July 4, 2009 6:10 PM
I'm surprised that Lomborg failed to come over very well - he has quite a cogent argument and is a well known environmental skeptic with some very well written material to his credit - check out his seminal work the Skeptical Environmentalist - impeccably argued and referenced.
He is often the target of ad hominem attacks (see URL above) which fail to counter his work and arguments.
Hey ho.
Sounds an interesting day out anyway!
Posted by: sornord | July 4, 2009 6:12 PM
With all the German immigrants the US has had over the centuries, why are US bread and major brand US beer so awful?
And why is it that everywhere else in the world the standard beer is a pint and in the US it's 12 oz?
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 4, 2009 6:19 PM
eh, once you know how to make bread, knowing how to make a particular type isn't so difficult anymore :-)
Hey, if you're anywhere along the Amtrak line (or even not too far south on 83), I could stop by and invite you to a beer (or coffee, or soda) :-)
Posted by: Cath the Canberra Cook | July 4, 2009 6:53 PM
If you want to make some interesting bread, and are lazy and don't own a bread-maker, the no-knead bread recipe is pretty good. It was going the rounds of the food bloggers some time back; here's my post on it.
Posted by: estraven | July 4, 2009 7:00 PM
Baden-W is also the main sponsor of the best mathematics conference center in the world, Mathematisches Forschungsinstitut Oberwolfach. They do indeed care for science over there.
Posted by: MadScientist | July 4, 2009 8:34 PM
PZ: learn to make your own bread! I love visiting countries that in general refuse to make insecticidal-fungicidal-foam and call it "bread". Of course making bread requires about 40m preparation spread out over 2-12h depending on the type of bread, and another 40m or so for cooking.
I guess Lomborg was invited for the comic relief? I wonder what he means about solar cells being obsolete; even if they were manufactured 20 years ago they'll continue to run pretty well for some time yet.
I don't see where people like Lomborg get confused:
1. it's too late to avoid a significant warming
2. if we don't do something things can only get worse
3. no matter what the scenario humans are likely to survive - but civilization as we know it is likely to fail
4. spouting "we'll adapt" with the assumption that civilization as we know it will continue is nothing more than fiat. As the simplest case let's say that the failure rate for crops becomes too high in an area. Fine - so move it. OK; where do you move to, what will you be displacing, who bears the cost, and how long will it take to establish this new outpost? It would not be so bad if only a small fraction of food producers were affected because it may be possible to import food. Once a significant percentage of producers, say 3%, are affected, we have a very severe global food crisis. As for cities, I like to say imagine what will happen if the water in the Boulder Dam runs low - how many cities will you have to relocate because they have no more water? We're talking about moving tens of millions of people - and where do we move them? Where is there an existing water source which the cities can simply be moved to? Who pays for the mass migration? What are the environmental implications of the move? Denialists are quick to come up with grand answers but are extremely poor at thinking them through.
Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space
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July 4, 2009 8:35 PM
Lomborg is nothing more than an apologist for inaction. His entire analysis is contingent upon ignoring most of the biggest risks and exaggerating the costs of dealing with climate change.
This is his typical style--dismissive, derisive and ill informed. The only question is whether he is dishonest or merely delusional.
Posted by: Matthew Segall | July 4, 2009 10:34 PM
PZ,
On climate change and ecological issues, it would seem we're definitely in the same camp. Lomborg represents the entrenched interests of the industrial growth model and has way too much faith in technological progress. Industrial technologies are what got us into this mess; if we want to find solutions, we need to fundamentally change our economic assumptions. I say economists should have mandatory courses on ecology.
Posted by: Rorschach | July 4, 2009 10:44 PM
Matthew @ 42,
Why is it important to you to agree with PZ on anything?
That aside, I dont know anything about Lomborg, but you are wrong to think that we will get out of the ecological mess we've gotten the planet into without technological progress.
Yes,we do need to change what you call our economic assumptions, but it will be up to the scientists to develop the technology to produce the food and energy that 7+ billion people need to survive, without making the planet uninhabitable for us within the next 200 years.
The bible or metaphysics aren't going to help.
Posted by: Matthew Segall | July 4, 2009 10:56 PM
@ 43
Oh, I don't deny that technology is going to be a big part of any solution. I'm an advocate of cultural historian William Irwin Thompson's suggestion that we continue developing the trend of a "miniaturization" of our technologies, though. This, along with a move from an industrial growth economics to a steady state "ecologics" (wherein we rethink consumerism and planned obsolescence and adopt a "cradle to cradle" mentality).
Thompson on post-industrial civilization: http://www.context.org/ICLIB/IC01/Thompson.htm
cradle to cradle:
http://www.mcdonough.com/cradle_to_cradle.htm
Posted by: Matthew Segall | July 4, 2009 11:04 PM
@ 43
BTW, I think the assumptions of a materialist metaphysics are what lead industrial economics to consider nature an "externality," devoid of any inherent purpose or value until produced and sold in the human market. We know better today, that earth is more a self-balancing physiological system that our civilization is embedded within (see Lovelock and Margulis' Gaia theory). But materialism lead to industry's view of nature as a store of raw material to be exploited, and so is largely responsible for our ecological crisis. Our metaphysics (more specifically cosmology) has everything to do with how we inhabit the earth.
Posted by: John Morales | July 5, 2009 12:31 AM
Thanks, PZ, I think this has been an interesting and revealing episode and a great series of posts!
--
re Bjorn Lomborg, I think he's worth listening to (not saying he's right) and makes some good points, and I don't consider him a denialist.
--
re bread, we've (wife [mostly] and I) been making our own for >10 years; we use (cf. catta @19) a breadmaker to do the grunt-work of making the dough, then finish it by hand and bake it in the oven. Highly-recommended, delicious, just as you like it, and cheap as. (Also brew own beer/cider using kits, similar results! ;)
Posted by: Equisetum | July 5, 2009 1:40 AM
Die Gedanken sind frei. Das Bier is gratis. Oder kostenlos.
Posted by: Andrew | July 5, 2009 9:53 AM
we use (cf. catta @19) a breadmaker to do the grunt-work of making the dough, then finish it by hand and bake it in the oven.
Indeed! I can confirm that a breadmaker is one of the easiest ways to improve your culinary lifestyle. A fresh loaf of hot, flavorful bread for about five minutes' work throwing the ingredients into it and waiting a half hour to and hour for it to make, knead and rise your dough, then the time spent baking, which is again a trivial amount of effort on the baker's part.
I haven't bought a loaf of bread from a supermarket in years! :)
Posted by: Gavin McBride | July 5, 2009 11:58 AM
As before PZ I live near Frankfurt so if anything goes wrong do not find yourself at a loose end.
Posted by: Hypatia's Daughter | July 5, 2009 12:07 PM
I have found that all the stores around the big cities now carry better breads - wholewheat, pumpernickle, etc - from major bakeries. But you have to check to make sure they use REAL, not ersatz, ingredients (like molasses instead of rye flour to color & flavor the bread). Not as good specialty bakery or home-made, of course........
When I moved to the south from TO over 13 years ago getting good bread was hard (which I expected) but getting good flour was harder. Wholewheat flour was sold in teeny, pitifully expensive bags; you could only find other flours in health food stores.
That's the catch-22 - if you can't get good bread locally, it may also be hard to find the good flours.
Posted by: daveau
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July 5, 2009 12:13 PM
Yes, of course. But, like many German scientific achievements, it was developed during the war, but came too late to be of any real strategic advantage.
Posted by: David Marjanović, OM | July 5, 2009 2:11 PM
First of all, Austrian bread is at least as good as German bread!!!1!eleventyone! Well, it's probably exactly the same. I haven't been to Germany much so far.
With sugar.
What about Pflaumenkuchen?
Coffins.
What? Everywhere else in the world except presumably in the UK, the unit of beer is the half-liter. (...Especially in Bavaria, where you're supposed to actually drink that much at once. But I digress.) How much is a pint even?
===================================
What about the popular mistranslation of Genesis 1:28? The KJV even says "subdue". (And *nn C**lt*r went on to interpret it as "rape" live on US TV. Yes, that's a quote.)
There are in fact American fundamentalists out there who say it's our sacred duty to not do anything sustainable, because that would testify of insufficient faith. For those who believe correctly enough, God will never let the oil run out, they say... seriously. I'm not making this up.
I can easily make the opposite case: materialism, the assumption of the lack of miracles, is it what has allowed us to even get the idea that natural resources might be finite or might not grow back fast enough for us to harvest at whatever rate we want. It is Antoine de Lavoisier (law of the conservation of matter in chemistry: rien ne se perd, rien ne se crée – "nothing gets lost, nothing gets created") that seems to be at work here, not Thomas Aquinas.
Argument from consequences. Nice try.
Here's some free advice: stop believing things because you'd like them to be true.
=====================================
He still makes arguments from ignorance, however.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 5, 2009 2:26 PM
A little effort and knowing what you're looking for will at least keep the sugar to a minimum. However, there doesn't seem to be a way to get bread that is substantial enough that one couldn't squish it into a doughball 1/10th its previous size (and some of it indeed bounces back to its original shape)
Incidentally, my boyfriend got a kick out of the 5 lbs loafs of bread in Germany. :-p
Posted by: a_ray_in_dilbert_space
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July 5, 2009 2:34 PM
Matthew Segall says, "BTW, I think the assumptions of a materialist metaphysics are what lead industrial economics to consider nature an "externality," devoid of any inherent purpose or value until produced and sold in the human market."
Horse Puckey! I think pure, simple greed and short-sightedness will do just fine as an explanation. There is absolutely nothing in materialism that leads to the conclusion that fouling your own nest is a good idea. What is more, there is absolutely nothing "spiritual" or supernatural that will keep greedheads from doing so. Read Stephen Jay Gould.
Posted by: Rilke's Granddaughter | July 5, 2009 3:47 PM
Completely OT, but is John Kwok really as delusional a loon as he appears to be? Or is he a Poe? He reminds me of Larry Fafarman, in a sad kinda way.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 5, 2009 3:56 PM
all signs point to yes
Posted by: Rilke's Granddaughter | July 5, 2009 4:00 PM
@56 That's really amazing. I mean, just amazing. Wow. If I were a bettin' kinda gal, I'd suspect autism. But wow.
Posted by: Matthew Segall | July 5, 2009 4:02 PM
@ 52 David Marjanović,
I think there are more than two options (Fundamentalist Christianity and materialism) here. I would add that many cultural historians have argued that materialism/industrialism has its roots in a Judeo-Christian mythos. The only difference is that man is the one who gives form to the worthless mud of the earth, rather than God.
After Thomas Berry, I'd argue that ecology is functional cosmology. The assumptions we make about the fundamental nature of existence do indeed have consequences. We cannot pretend that a positivist attitude is somehow neutral when it comes to the issue of human-earth relations. How we inhabit the earth is always already both a moral and a metaphysical issue.
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 5, 2009 4:07 PM
yeah, I know. we were all given the impression he isn't wired quite right during Survivor:Pharyngula
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 5, 2009 4:17 PM
wtf?
maybe I missed something somewhere, but what the bloody hell are you talking about? stuff is just stuff, and would be just stuff if there were no humans at all.
on the other hand, "meaning" and "purpose" are indeed man-made, for the simple reason that we're descended from tool-users, and our brains are what they are because we've become most proficient a using tools, i.e. making things have a purpose to us.
Posted by: Perk O'Sette | July 5, 2009 5:31 PM
David M., OM @ 52
That's disheartening. I thought that there was a
growing trend toward 'Xtian stewardship of the land'
as a conscious reaction to the James Watt style (that
is, drill all you want, Jesus is a-comin').
Posted by: Jadehawk, OM
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July 5, 2009 5:44 PM
Perk, there is. But not among the fundies. The fundies believe anything Green is "worshiping the creation, not the Creator." The craziest of them (the rapture crowd) believe that environmetalism is the One World Religion that is prophesied to come about at the End of the World, and therefore don't want anything to do with it.
Posted by: John Morales | July 5, 2009 6:01 PM
David,
Apparently, 1 pint is 473ml in the US and 568ml in the UK.
Here in South Australia, when you buy a 'pint' of beer you typically get a 425ml glass.
Posted by: Matthew Segall | July 5, 2009 6:30 PM
@ 60 Jadehawk: "'meaning' and 'purpose' are indeed man-made, for the simple reason that we're descended from tool-users"
Even Jacques Monod had to admit teleonomy as the only proper form of description of any form of life. Evolution itself could be described as a refining process of endogenous biological tools, with species like primates having built on this principle by finding a way to make tools from materials found in their environment which could be inherited culturally, thereby drastically speeding up the process of adaptation that began with biology alone. "Meaning" could be argued to be something human language produces for us, but some sort of finality (telos) has to be understood as rooted in the creative advance of nature itself if we are to escape a cumbersome bifurcation between humanity and the rest of the universe.
@ 61 and 62: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Green_Christians
Posted by: Rick | July 5, 2009 11:33 PM
Re: global warming real but not a crucial problem
Interesting take on this at 538:
http://www.fivethirtyeight.com/2009/06/how-to-destroy-almost-half-planet-for.html
Even 0.5% of global GDP is a lot of people's livelihood.
Posted by: Stuart Pivar | July 6, 2009 1:04 PM
Dear PZ,
Don't deprecate balloons, as you yourself are one, as we all are, according to the great embryologist Adolph Seilacher at Yale, who established by tensorial analysis in his Pneu theory in the 1980s that the curvature of the arthropod shell and vertebrate body is consistent with that of an inflated balloon. Every cell is a balloon.
The body is an inflatable. This characteristic distinguishes living form from the inorganic. Crystals have flat surfaces and sharp edges.
In the 1880's Swiss scientist Wilhelm His, father of human embryology, inventor of the microtome, simulated the steps of embryology and the form of the vertebrate internal organs by the deformation of inflated rubber bladders and tubes. His work was ridiculed by Ernst Haeckel as Gummischlauchwissenschaft, rubber balloon science. It was His who exposed Haeckel's embryo drawings as fraudulent. Haeckle destroyed the Swiss Entwicklungsmechanik school of embryology by preventing its members from publishing and teaching in Germany.
Embryogenesis is guided by the fluid dynamics of inflating balloons. Gould recounts all this in Ontogeny and Philogeny, 1977.
We are all inflatables, some of us more than others.
Stuart
See www.ontheoriginofform.com
Posted by: Lindis | July 6, 2009 2:06 PM
oh my god, I live in Friedrichshafen and had no idea you were here since I started reading your blog the day after *sniffles*
Posted by: Anonymous | July 15, 2009 1:18 AM
Funny...insubstantial biologist from the University of Minn. derides an insubstantial statistican from Copenhagen. Only difference: one has an international profile, a best selling book, and an army of facts. The others has a balloon hat and a blog.